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In a long history of the presence of Muslims in Germany, Ursula Spuler-Stegemann, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Marburg, rather offhandedly admits that Muslims are transforming German society along Sharia lines and have become "loud and demanding." She says this is just a "phase," although she should know, but does not mention, that this is entirely to be expected given the supremacist elements of Islam vis-a-vis the "People of the Book," the all-encompassing nature of Sharia (including its political elements), and the deeply traditional imperative to impose it, and not compromise upon it.
But don't be concerned: Al-Qaeda is the only group with this ideology, and as Al-Qaeda implodes, the ideology is being discredited! Germany? Islamic supremacism in Germany? Preposterous -- it is all about Iraq! Go back to sleep!
"How Islam Came to Germany," by Ursula Spuler-Stegemann in Spiegel, June 16 (thanks to Jim Jatras):
Muslims have achieved a great deal and changed a number of things that many Germans once took for granted. Nowadays, there are women-only swimming days for Muslims with female supervisors, where the pool windows are draped with heavy curtains to prevent outsiders from peering inside. Crosses have been removed from many hospitals and schools, and special Islamic prayer rooms have been introduced to factories and public buildings. And there have been many other changes. Muslim parents now seek to exempt their daughters from overnight school field trips and co-ed sports classes. The question of whether public employees should be allowed to wear Islamic headscarves has been referred to the courts, along with the issue of religious studies in schools. Germany has already begun providing university education for its Muslim religious instruction teachers and imams.It appears the quiet settling-in period has been replaced by a loud and demanding phase. This raises concerns among many Germans that the minority society may come to dominate the majority society.
Since Muslims are the first immigrant group to come to Germany with a ready-made societal system and a supremacist notion that that system must one day replace the system of the infidels, those concerns are well founded.
Posted by Robert at June 19, 2008 5:00 AM
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inch by inch...Ban Muslim Immigration.
Posted by: exsgtbrown![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at June 19, 2008 6:06 AM
The problem that neither Spencer nor Spuler-Stegemann are understanding is the process in which muslim minorities actually will come to dominate the political discourse. Simply being loud and supremacist won't help anybody in a democracy achieve their results. If you are not already in charge by lobbying, you can only get where you want by mobilizing voting forces.
This is where the demographic conquest sets in and one of Europe's and especially Germany's most dangerous social issues comes into play: the decline of birth rates among upper- and middle-class families. The latest attempt to counter this shift which is predicted to jeopardize Germany's retirement pension system is enforced by Ursula von der Leyen (Germany's incumbent Federal Minister for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth and, ironically, of the traditionally christian-conservative CDU) who continually proposes to financially subsidize families with many children and punish those with few or none (through tax cuts, child benefit raises, etc.). Eventually, this carrot-and-stick program to artificially set up a nation of breeders will, unfortunately, only help to generate and grow a social group either unwilling or unable to autonomously rise on the social scale, dependent on government pay and largely unsympathetic to the ideology of the western world but soon eclipsing in number the voting bloc of the traditional and free civil society. When they have become large enough, the supremacy and loudness will eventually produce actual political effects.
Posted by: German Observer at June 19, 2008 8:01 AM
And the next phase after the "loud and demanding phase" would be?
Posted by: tanstaafl at June 19, 2008 8:02 AM
Posted by: German Observer at June 19, 2008 8:01 AM
"The problem that neither Spencer nor Spuler-Stegemann are understanding is the process in which muslim minorities actually will come to dominate the political discourse."
Spencer and others, including Steyn, are well aware of it. It is not rocket science. When Europe decided that a socialist nanny-state was in their best interest, coupled with their lack of breeding, with an overall fertility rate of less than replacement, immigration was filling that void out of necessity.
Welcome to class, German Observer. Better late than too late.
Posted by: awake at June 19, 2008 8:34 AM
German Observer:
What you're saying is inaccurate. If you search for "demographic conquest" at this site, you will find many mentions of it, as well as much discussion of the acceptance of polygamy in Europe, and the significance of that acceptance.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
at June 19, 2008 11:03 AM
German Observer,
I find it interesting that in this thread you seem to be aware of the "implications" of Muslim populations, but on the thread with the picture of Turkish flags in Germany, you blew off and mocked those same ideas.
Maybe you should make up your mind...
Posted by: Mo Foe at June 19, 2008 11:24 AM
Posted by: awake at June 19, 2008 8:34 AM
"Spencer and others, including Steyn, are well aware of it. It is not rocket science. When Europe decided that a socialist nanny-state was in their best interest, coupled with their lack of breeding, with an overall fertility rate of less than replacement, immigration was filling that void out of necessity."
Immigration was not "filling that void out of necessity". Educate yourself about the Gastarbeiter issue before hawking such nonsense.
Posted by: jihadwatch at June 19, 2008 11:03 AM
"If you search for "demographic conquest" at this site, you will find many mentions of it, as well as much discussion of the acceptance of polygamy in Europe, and the significance of that acceptance."
"Mentions" does not equal understanding. Also, polygamy has not that much to do with excelling birth rates without the background of any concrete political imperatives. It's certainly not the only way. The Catholic Church proved that many centuries ago with their intertwined strategies of promoting monogamy and outruling knowledge of contraception, effectually resulting in enormous birth rates in late 15th century Europe (in England from 110 sons per 100 fathers between 1441 and 1465 to 202 sons per 100 fathers between 1491 and 1505).
Posted by: Mo Foe at June 19, 2008 11:24 AM
"I find it interesting that in this thread you seem to be aware of the "implications" of Muslim populations, but on the thread with the picture of Turkish flags in Germany, you blew off and mocked those same ideas."
I blew off and mocked not the ideas I mentioned in here but the idea suggested by Robert Spencer in a rather esoteric way that there were "implications" to one building in Germany with many Turkish flags during UEFA Euro 2008.
Posted by: German Observer at June 19, 2008 12:07 PM
German Observer,
You wrote, "When they have become large enough, the supremacy and loudness will eventually produce actual political effects."
The picture of the building, covered in Turkish flags, far outnumbering the one German flag is symbolic of the large population of Muslims in Germany, that will "eventually produce political effects.
You agree, and eloquently limn the implications, but then mock Spencer's "esoteric" style. Your choice, but I'm glad you seem to understand what he meant, even if you dislike his style.
Posted by: Mo Foe at June 19, 2008 1:13 PM
"This raises concerns among many Germans that the minority society may come to dominate the majority society."
-- from the article above
But demography always turns out to be destiny. I don't know the figures for Germany. But I know them for the Netherlands: 1,500 Muslims in 1960, 15,000 Muslims in 1970, 400,000 Muslims in 1997, and more than one million Muslims today. I know something about France, where there are between 5 and 7 million Muslims, and one out of every three babies born in France is a Muslim baby, which means that in 20 years, one of every three 20 year olds will be a Muslim, and one out of every two babies born in France will be a Muslim baby. You can do the calculations for the rest of Europe, you can figure out what inexorably is to come, if there are not efforts to halt all Muslim immigration, to remove Muslim non-citizens from Europe, and to have requirements for citizenship that include swearing allegiance to the legal and political institutions of the Infidel nation-state, an oath-taking that, if there is any reason to think someone has perjured himself, will be grounds for the stripping of citizenship. And there are a hundred ways to make the conduct of Muslim life not quite so easy as it now is, with everyone falling all over himself to yield to Muslim demands, even by limiting freedoms of Western man in Western countries, and instead making it very difficult indeed-- and especially making the rule of Muslim men over Muslim women impossible, and encouraging, and protecting, apostates.
at June 19, 2008 1:25 PM
This "german" oberserver is a Paßdeutscher.. ie. a so-called "passport German" allowed in under the treasonous criminal SchröderFischer regime in the Nineties.
Go observe something in Turkey, "obeserver".
Du bist erkannt!
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at June 19, 2008 2:36 PM
And the next phase after the "loud and demanding phase" would be?
Posted by: tanstaafl
--
That would be the "violent phase". Already in full swing with the benign tolerance of the German courts.
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at June 19, 2008 2:41 PM
This is nothing compared to what is happening in the UK. We even pay for terrorists to live here (See: Abu Qatada).
Time to stop this invasion.
Posted by: DaveMate
at June 19, 2008 2:52 PM
"It appears the quiet settling-in period has been replaced by a loud and demanding phase."
Followed by the murdering and violence phase, followed by the sharia law phase, followed by the destruction of the countries identity phase, followed by the jackboot of Islam phase.
Ain't multiculturalism great?
Posted by: DaveMate at June 19, 2008 2:57 PM
DaveMate.. so why do we native Europeans always end up at each others' throats instead of banding together and REALLY doing something?!
The first step is the ballot box.
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at June 19, 2008 2:59 PM
"Immigration was not "filling that void out of necessity". Educate yourself about the Gastarbeiter issue before hawking such nonsense."
Posted by: German Observer at June 19, 2008 12:07 PM
Yeah , yeah, the Gasterbeiter and the poor Turks of the 1950's 60's, forced from their homes to work in German factories in some inspipid EU type plot. Funny how many did not return home.
As Hugh pointed out, demography is destiny and your Gasterbeiter rationalization falls short for it does not address increased Muslims in France, Britain, and the Netherlands for starters.
Demographics are a valid point, but that statement by you is not a revelation and is not lost on Robert or anyone here, but thanks for trying.
We get it, no matter how hard you wish we did not.
Posted by: awake at June 19, 2008 3:09 PM
Ursula Spuler-Stegemann, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Marburg, rather offhandedly admits that Muslims are transforming German society along Sharia lines and have become "loud and demanding." She says this is just a "phase"
....................
Well, of course it's just a phase! When they have full Shari'ah law, such things won't be neccessary at all.
from above:
Muslims have achieved a great deal . . .
.....................
They certainly have. What are the European achievements of art, and literature, and classical music, and the rule of law, and the philosophy of the Enlightenment, compared to forcing gender segregation in public places and the banning of majority-culture religious symbols?
Why, there's really no comparison!
Posted by: gravenimage at June 19, 2008 3:46 PM
-At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:
Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).
France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).-
The article, if anything, overestimates the percentages at which Islam becomes more and more demanding and virulent, but it's a rough guide at least.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D
Posted by: Silvester at June 19, 2008 5:20 PM
Posted by: DaveMate
"It appears the quiet settling-in period has been replaced by a loud and demanding phase."
Followed by the murdering and violence phase, followed by the sharia law phase, followed by the destruction of the countries identity phase, followed by the jackboot of Islam phase.
Followed by Islamic Nazi expansionist phase, followed by a hot World War phase, followed by the Europe in ruins phase.
If Europeans think growing old without a nanny state for support is so frightening that they must continue to import labor from the ranks of Islamic fascists, they should consider the other alternatives: growing old without food, medicine, and running water, or not growing old at all.
Pull your head out Europeans, before we all become collateral damage… again.
Posted by: RalphInfidel at June 19, 2008 5:54 PM
No doubt the next phase will be the round up of native born Germans who would then be forced to live in specially sanctioned ghettoes.
Anyone who is not muslim automatically earns a second-class citizen status. Jews living there will again be forced to wear a Star of David but a new twist will be that Christians will be forced to wear a cross on their clothing.
Thought police will be making spot checks on the citizens to ensure no one makes disparaging remarks towards islam or Mo the Pedo.
The final phase will be the reconstruction of camps at Sobibor, Auschwitz, Treblinka and others.
Posted by: PorkFatRules at June 19, 2008 8:18 PM
Silvester, thanks for the stats and analysis. I am often stunned when I read about how much violence and trouble Muslims have caused, and then realize how small their numbers actually are--so far at least--in Most Western nations.
When you get even higher numbers, there is an attempt to drive out or dhimmify all remaining infidels, and apply as much Shari'ah law as they can manage. Think of countries such as India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon and Turkey.
Posted by: gravenimage
at June 19, 2008 11:53 PM
In light of the remarks about the 'quiet settling-in period' followed by 'a loud and demanding phase' it may be helpful to post, again, an article that appeared on this site in 2007.
- Article from Times Online: September 8, 2007
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
- reporter, Andrew Norfolk
“Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’.
'One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
'Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
'His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
'Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.
'He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam.
' Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against non-Muslim lands.
'Mr Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism.
'The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
'The final chapter delivers a rebuke to those who believe that only defensive jihad (fighting to defend a Muslim land that is under attack or occupation) is permissible in Islam. He refutes the suggestion that jihad is unlawful against a non-Muslim state that freely permits the preaching of Islam.
'For Mr Usmani, “the question is whether aggressive battle is by itself commendable or not”. “If it is, why should the Muslims stop simply because territorial expansion in these days is regarded as bad? And if it is not commendable, but deplorable, why did Islam not stop it in the past?”
'He answers his own question thus: “Even in those days . . . aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”
'These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.
'Mr Usmani told The Times that Islam and Modernism was an English translation of his original Urdu book, “which at times gives a connotation different from the original”. END ARTICLE.
Well: there you have it. The German Muslims are following the standard recipe to the letter.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at June 20, 2008 12:50 AM
In light of the remarks about the 'quiet settling-in period' followed by 'a loud and demanding phase' it may be helpful to post, again, an article that appeared on this site in 2007.
- Article from Times Online: September 8, 2007
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
- reporter, Andrew Norfolk
“Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’.
'One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
'Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
'His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
'Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan’s Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.
'He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam.
' Yet this is a man who, in his published work, argues the case for Muslims to wage an expansionist war against non-Muslim lands.
'Mr Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism.
'The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
'The final chapter delivers a rebuke to those who believe that only defensive jihad (fighting to defend a Muslim land that is under attack or occupation) is permissible in Islam. He refutes the suggestion that jihad is unlawful against a non-Muslim state that freely permits the preaching of Islam.
'For Mr Usmani, “the question is whether aggressive battle is by itself commendable or not”. “If it is, why should the Muslims stop simply because territorial expansion in these days is regarded as bad? And if it is not commendable, but deplorable, why did Islam not stop it in the past?”
'He answers his own question thus: “Even in those days . . . aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”
'These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.
'Mr Usmani told The Times that Islam and Modernism was an English translation of his original Urdu book, “which at times gives a connotation different from the original”. END ARTICLE.
Well: there you have it. The German Muslims are following the standard recipe to the letter.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at June 20, 2008 12:52 AM
Deepest apologies for the double posting.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at June 20, 2008 1:29 AM
heck all we have to do is look at Minneapolis
to see what happens when muslims become a majority in a area
at June 20, 2008 2:23 AM
Its must be the Muslims fault- Germans are an extremely tolerant people to those who are different, as history shows.
Posted by: istanbulnotconstantinople at June 21, 2008 11:26 AM
Observe, ladies and gentlemen, the Muslim Disruptor, 'istanbul...', who has managed to fit into one sentence two classic ploys of Muslim "argumentation", namely, 1. playing the victim card and 2. tu quoque.
He wants to convey this impression: 'It's all the Germans' fault - they are provoking the poor, poor little Muslims, who are SOOO peaceful and nice, by being MEAN AND NASTY to them'.
When the reality is that the Germans, far too tolerant for their own good, are giving way to a mass of petty and completely unreasonable Muslim demands, in a great many matters, some of them listed in the article - e.g. "Crosses have been removed from many hospitals and schools" (we must remember that one of the Muslim 'rules for dhimmis' forbade public display of the Christian cross). Giving way in small things creates the habit of giving way...and the demands will only grow, and grow, and grow. Any parent will understand what I'm talking about.
Anyone who has read Malcolm Gladwell's "Tipping Point", the chapter entitled 'the power of context', will immediately understand the danger in all these small, but cumulative, concessions, these repeated demands, here, there, and everywhere, subtly altering the physical and psychological environment.
To repel 'sharia creep' one must start with the seeming small things; and it is there that local government, and local administrators, hospital registrars, school principals, bosses of companies and factory floor managers and small businesses, must grit their teeth and dig in their toes and say NO, NO, and NO, even when - especially when - the Muslims start throwing tantrums.
Indeed: as a rule of thumb, if the refusal of some apparently 'small' or 'trivial' Muslim demand, provokes a massive Muslim tantrum, the wise Infidel must conclude that that demand is not so trivial, after all, and be even more adamant in refusing to accede to it.
The massive Muslim tantrum over the French banning of hijab in state schools, is a good example of this principle in action.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at June 22, 2008 3:51 AM
Wait, wait!... the majority of German's Muslims come from 'secular' moderate Turkey? Wait until they import the ones from truly virulent Islamic countries! How about an extra dose of 'Palistinians' or Pakistanis to move things along towards the inevitable, by Allah's Cult Sharia?
Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at June 22, 2008 1:06 PM
In an article on the Star TRibune in Minneapolis we have a similar situation:
"Over the past century, Minnesota has seen waves of immigrants from Germany, Sweden, Norway and Laos, among other nations, and each group managed to move up the ladder of prosperity despite some initial doubts about their ability to integrate.
Yet nearly two decades after a violent civil war brought thousands of Somali refugees to the Twin Cities, their integration in the U.S. workplace is becoming more contentious.
Their insistence on maintaining Muslim traditions, including prayer times and modest clothing, have led to ....... a sharp increase in religious discrimination complaints.
"For the average Minnesotan, this is entirely new," said Bruce Corrie, an economist at Concordia University in St. Paul who specializes in immigration research. "The Somali community is highly assertive and politically engaged. ... It's part of who they are as a people."
Article at: http://tinyurl.com/4t7mvf
Perhaps we can all do whatever we like if it's a part of who we are?
I have no answers. It boogles the mind.
at June 22, 2008 9:10 PM
PS: I guess if we don't know that we have a culture - or if we believe all cultures are equal and we have no right to keep ours - but others have a HUGE right to keep theirs, we will only know what we had when it's gone ..... and when we're gone, no one will know ... or Care.
I talked to a Christian from Etheopia. He said hed a wife and four children. His Muslim neighbors had four wives and twenty children ... so the Chritian's were losing in the "market share" contest.
I was told that many Muslims are kind and peace loving. We are all that way when we get what we want. But, if our leaders want more, and have the power ...... I'm sure many Nazi's were wonderful to their family - It's just that their idiology meant that they had NOT JUST a RIGHT - BUT A DUTY to destroy those who didn't fit into their idea of a perfect socity.
Posted by: Hehadahat at June 22, 2008 9:21 PM
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