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A Washington Post article about Copts under Islam manages a bit of objectivity, though subtle Islamic apologetics abound. “Egypt's Coptic Christians Are Choosing Isolation,” by Ellen Knickmeyer for the Washington Post, July 7:
CAIRO -- Under pressure from fundamentalist forms of Islam and bursts of sectarian violence, the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries, members of both communities say.
Unfortunately, the writer of this article is under that popular delusion that Coptic-Muslim relations over the centuries have been grand, and that it is only recently that “bursts of sectarian violence” have occurred. Newsflash: the “social ties” between Muslims and Christians over the centuries have always revolved around the fact that Copts had to pay tribute (jizya), and live, in accordance with Koran 9:29, in humility and submission to their Islamic overlords. History uniformly shows this. In short, they were (and, according to sharia, are) second-class citizens.
Attacks this summer on monks and shopkeepers belonging to Egypt's Coptic Christian minority, and scattered clashes between Muslims and Christians, have compelled many of Egypt's estimated 6 million to 8 million Copts to isolate themselves in a nation with more than 70 million Muslims. [...]
Incidentally, before the Islamic conquest of Egypt in 640-641 AD, Copts made up approximately 100% of the population. Shows how “motivating” the jizya, persecutions, and over all second-class treatment of Copts have been in “persuading” the latter to Islam.
The Apostle Mark founded the Coptic Church in the 1st century, bringing Christianity to Egypt. Theological disputes split the Coptic faith from the West in the 5th century. Muslims brought their faith to Egypt in the 7th century, and the 14 centuries of conversions to Islam that followed have made Copts a minority here.
How nice: Muslims “brought their faith to Egypt.” You know, they came peacefully to the borders of the Christian nation, careful not to trespass or offend, proclaiming the good tidings of Islam, and Copts in droves simply converted. It is bad enough that the author does not note under what sort of circumstances the vast majority of Coptic conversions to Islam took place, but that she can’t bring herself to use accurate terminology—Muslims did not “bring” their faith to Egypt in the 7th century, they ruthlessly conquered it in the name of their faith—betrays apologetic tendencies, which, of course, are not surprising: this is, after all, the Washington Post. One is impressed enough that the liberal paper actually dared address the Coptic issue in the first place.
Tensions between the Arab world, Israel and the West all but swept away the region's Jewish communities outside Israel by the 1960s.Since the 1970s, the growth of Islamist politics and the flow of laborers back and forth from the Arab Gulf, where they absorb that region's stringent form of Islam, have increased the influence of fundamentalist Islam and made life more difficult for Christians.
War has devastated Christian communities in countries such as Iraq, where the number of Christians has shrunk from 1 million in 2000 to an estimated 400,000, according to a widely used estimate by Christian organizations. In the West Bank town of Bethlehem, the proportion of Christians has fallen from 90 percent in the 1950s to an estimated 50 percent or less.
About one Egyptian in seven in the 1950s was Coptic, but that has shrunk to one in 10 by some estimates, although the Egyptian government publishes no census numbers on the sensitive issue.
Violence between Muslims and Christians flares every few years. In the most dramatic confrontation this summer, settled Arab Bedouins on May 31 attacked monks who have been reclaiming the 1,700-year-old monastery of ”Abu Fana,” from the desert in southern Egypt.
Monks say the attackers fired on them with AK-47 assault rifles and captured some among them to torture. Attackers broke the legs of one monk by pounding them between two rocks. One Muslim man was killed.
A few days earlier, gunmen in Cairo killed four Copts at a jewelry store but left without taking anything. Strife over liaisons between Christian and Muslim men and women led to recent clashes between the communities in Egypt's countryside.
Egypt's government invariably denies that sectarian tension lies behind the violence. It blamed the violence at the Abu Fana monastery on a land dispute.
Abu Fana's monks deny that.
"Is it a land dispute when they kidnap monks and torture them?" Brother Michael, 34, asked from a hospital bed in Cairo, where he cradled an arm hit by shrapnel in the attack.
"Is it a land dispute when they tell you to spit on the cross, when they try to make you say the words to convert to Islam?" asked Brother Viner, 30, sitting on Brother Michael's bed. He wore a neck brace because of the beating he received in the attack. […]
Many Copts think Egypt makes them second-class citizens -- requiring presidential approval, for instance, for construction of any church. Copts say state security services have little interest in protecting Christians.
Meanwhile, the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood movement has helped squeeze Copts out of competition in politics and trade unions, increasing the importance of [Coptic Pope] Shenouda's role as intermediary between the Copts and Egypt as a whole.
Posted by Raymond at July 7, 2008 11:11 AM
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Perhaps the author needs to read this from the page about St Catherine's monastery on egyptologyonline.com
David Roberts lithograph showing the Monastery of Saint Catherine, with Mount Horeb in the background. When the artist visited St Catherine's in 1838, the only entrance to the heavily fortified monastery was a small covered "trap door" set 30 feet high up the wall, where provisions and people were lifted with a system of pulleys and baskets.
Now why would a religious order need to live in a heavily fortified monastery with a trap door 30 feet above ground for an entrance if not to protect themselves from their neighbors?
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at July 7, 2008 11:26 AM
Another interesting story was in yesterday's Washington Post about finding that approximately 1 in a hundred people arrested/fingerprinted overseas because in terror related issues has a record in the US.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/05/AR2008070501831.html
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at July 7, 2008 11:32 AM
You can get a glimpse of the horrors of the Jihadi conquest of Coptic Egypt through the observations of the Coptic Bishop John of Nikiou as relayed by Bat Ye'or in 'The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam'.
Posted by: Cornelius at July 7, 2008 11:40 AM
We watched an interesting documentary a few months ago depicting life in Egypt for the Copts, a large proportion of which make their living collecting, recycling and subsisting in waste dumps -- literally villages of rubbish -- because there are few other ways to make a living and of course, the Muslims refuse to do this filthy and dangerous work.
Perhaps WaPo can muster the journalistic fervor to delve into this aspect of Muslim/Christian relations.
Posted by: Charles Martel at July 7, 2008 12:27 PM
Charles,
I watched the same documentary on Youtube. It was astonishing.
Did you notice the Coptic Church that was carved into a cliff? One can only assume this was a response to the Islamic prohibition on building new churches.
I was at a high school graduation ceremony recently when one student speaker descended into the drivel about how America is still a "racist, sexist country"...(I thought to myself 'the public school system apparently did a good job on him').
While individuals in America may still indeed harbor racist and sexist attitudes, the only institutional discrimination in America that I'm aware of is the racial preferences that are conferred upon minorities in our universities and other public and even private entities.
I then remembered the rubbish people of Egypt...and wished to God that this student and his graduating class had a clue about what REAL discrimination looks like.
Posted by: Cornelius at July 7, 2008 1:15 PM
Also recently, with some whitewashing and apologetics as well, 60 Minutes of all places spoke about the purge of Christians from Iraq by.....egads....Muslims.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/60minutes/main3553612.shtml
Posted by: awake at July 7, 2008 1:35 PM
The Apostle Mark founded the Coptic Church in the 1st century, bringing Christianity to Egypt. Theological disputes split the Coptic faith from the West in the 5th century. Muslims brought their faith to Egypt in the 7th century, and the 14 centuries of conversions to Islam that followed have made Copts a minority here.
How nice: Muslims “brought their faith to Egypt.”
Sure makes it all sound like the same thing, doesn't it? St. Mark "btought" Christianity, and the the Moslems "brought" Islam. I'm sure that everyone remembers how St. Mark, at the head of a great Christian army, conquered Egypt and imposed Christianity on the pagan natives at swordpoint. And then about 6 centuries later, Moslem missionaries arrived and began the peaceful conversion to Islam.
Or maybe I have things mixed up.
at July 7, 2008 3:57 PM
Lots of folks think Islam has been around since the days of Moses. Seriously.
That is the sort of ignorance we are up against.
Posted by: mike trivisonno at July 7, 2008 4:44 PM
There is a sizeable congregation of Copts (they told me coptic meant "first" or "original") in my city. Every year in the fall they hold a celebration with food and crafts and tours of their church.
Our family went in 1999. The church looked very Byzantine--no statues but may icons. One of the icons appeared damaged and during the tour they explained that it had been brought--covertly--from Egypt. It was there that it had been damaged during a church raid. The pastor explained matter of factly how common raids and attacks are, and how his niece, a girl of 11, had been kidnapped, also common, never to be seen again. There's a conversion story.
Since 9/11, our local rag the Post-Dispatch has been replete with stories of local muslims, their mosques, schools, charities, etc. Every year since 1999 I have asked them to do a story on local Copts. In 2001, they agreed and went to the Coptic Church. But then came 9/11 and the story was never published.
It was, in a way, published here. Thanks, Raymond.
Posted by: CapitalistGig at July 7, 2008 5:39 PM
"Muslims brought their faith to Egypt" (sounds like a picnic lunch) is as laughable a coinage as Gen. Weasley Clark describing John McCain's being shot down of Viet Nam, while a fighter pilot, as "riding in a plane".
And I guess Ebola just "brings its biological information into a host body", too.
This gal Knickmayer is a hilarious half-witted hoot.
Posted by: profitsbeard at July 7, 2008 9:45 PM
The video mentioned by both Charles Martel and Cornelius in the above comments is called:
EGYPT's RUBBISH PEOPLE
Evan Williams reports on the Egyptian Coptic community known as the Zabbaleen who as dhimmi's survive collecting and disposing of much of the Cairo's waste .
Egypt's Rubbish People, Part 1 of 3
Egypt's Rubbish People, Part 2 of 3
Egypt's Rubbish People, Part 3 of 3
Posted by: heroyalwhyness at July 7, 2008 10:09 PM
Its so funny how in the West, everyone must be reminded how the Romans INVADED Gaul, INVADED North Africa, how Europeans, they INVADED South America, and INVADED North America, INVADED Australia. But Moslems NEVER EVER invade, they only "Bring" or "Spread". Why cant we be as honest about others as we are about ourselves.
To me its all about education, word of mouth, just talk to your friends about how Islam was never "brought" to Egypt. Another simple thing that works here in Australia, whenever someone writes a touchy feely subject about Islam, is to write a small response to the letters section.
And about the people who work as Cairo's defacto recyclers, it really is amazing, and they are the absolute most nicest people in the world. And the church there looks stunning, which is really amazing considering the poverty of the people surrounding it.
Posted by: Albert the Copt at July 8, 2008 12:46 AM
Albert.. I ***LOVE*** how you are breaking it down!! My sentiments EXACTLY!!
Just didn't know how to express it nearly as well as you have!!
Thank You!!
Great work!
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at July 8, 2008 4:09 AM
The one thing I fail to understand.. WHY the heck does everyone seem to think that RESISTANCE IS FUTILE??!!
Does it take an agnostic like me - NO, I am NOT an atheist for that would be an emotional and therefore intellectually weak position - to feel that WHAT THE HECK is so damn difficult about killing those who intend to kill ALL OF US??!!
Sorry, but I can't find any remorse when I hear of dead moslems.
All I can feel is joy and relief at the news.. the less our enemies the better we will survive, my brothers and sisters!
It is either US or THEM!
Any questions?!
PS. Sorry, but it is THEY who created these alternatives. If it were up to me.. live and let live.. they are the ones who say live and let die..
So now I have to let them die if We are to live!
We love life!
We HATE shaytan-allah!
WE have nothing to prove by killing them. All we wish is to keep on living the way we have been used to these last couple of centuries.
I am afraid that we Europeans have been distracting the World from the REAL FIGHT with our stupid misguided internecine warfare for way too long now!
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at July 8, 2008 4:28 AM
I found an interesting article about the Copts in an old Encyclopaedia Britannica the other day. I mean 60 years old: it was written at a time before "sensitivity" and told the truth.
"After a few years, of the mild rule of Amr the Copts began to suffer for the benefit of the Muslim exchequer and for their religion.... In the 8th century, the monks were not only compelled to pay a capitation tax, but were branded with name and number, civilians were oppressed with heavy taxation, churches demolished, pictures and crosses destroyed. Degrading dresses were imposed on the Christians; later, under Hakim, they were compelled to wear heavy crosses and black turbans as an ignominious distinction. Saladin [Saladin!!!!!] in 1171 reinforced these statutes and defiled the churches... In 1348 a religious war raged at Cairo and large numbers of Copts embraced Islam.."
So it goes on. The Copts had a better time of it under the British, as it happens...
Posted by: The Heresiarch at July 8, 2008 7:23 AM
Nice catch Heresiarch.
I decided to pull my own dated copy of the relevant Encyclopaedia Britannica off the shelf and note that your paragraph no longer exists in the 1969 edition. There is just one paragraph describing current relations. It manages to reduce such descriptive dhimmitude to politically correct platitudes (middle of third paragraph page 478):
Egypt appreciates the Copts as an important and thoroughly Egyptian element in the community, and the teaching of the Coptic Church has been the basis of the syllabus used in the religious instruction of Christian children in government schools. There are many Copts among government officials and professional men. Nevertheless Copts living in Muslim villages in Upper Egypt have shown a tendency to go over to Islam in the hope of getting work, and in some parts of the countryside the Coptic Church is struggling to keep alive.
Semantic gymnastics delude the reality of dhimmitude.
However, early in the section on Copts it does state:
"The Copts are a people, the descendants of the original inhabitants of Egypt, as their language is the direct descendant of the ancient Egyptian language.
at July 8, 2008 8:49 AM
"The one thing I fail to understand.. WHY the heck does everyone seem to think that RESISTANCE IS FUTILE??!!"
Ummah Gummah,
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but here's my perspective:
Resistance is futile, because of highly-placed apologists who have the ears of the powers-that-be. Resistance is futile, because to resist is to be "incorrect" in your religion, your politics, your morals, your desire to keep your own traditions--The list is endless.
Resistance is futile, because of creeping Sharia. Resistance is futile, because few people are paying attention to what's going on. Resistance is futile, because our very own elected officials bend over backwards to accomodate Islam and Muslims.
NOW--having said all of that, I add, for myself only, that though resistance may be futile, I do intend to resist. On the day when the US government loses control, and Muslims are forcing conversions, battering those who will not convert, kidnapping and raping and killing with impunity, that's the day when resistance will become a physical necessity for the man on the street. On that day, I'll resist until I'm dead.
at July 8, 2008 10:11 AM
Arabic sources do not use the equivalent of "brought" to describe the Muslim conquest of Egypt. They often use a word one can translate as "opened." But "conquest" is a fair translation for this word, as well. So no euphemism required on the Islamic side of the question.
Charles Martel: I don't know what you saw, but it was very misleading. Yes, the Copts (and a few particular families at that) have had a monopoly over the - very lucrative, by the way - rubbish carting trade in Cairo for generations. It is passed down from father to son, as one finds in any medieval sort of society where social mobility is limited and trades are learned by apprenticeship. But Copts were (and still are to a surprising degree) the professional class in Egypt - doctors, pharmacists, accountants, etc. They are relatively speaking better educated and better off than Egyptian Muslims.
Posted by: Doubting David at July 8, 2008 11:29 AM
Abscedere I am afraid that was quite compelling. I, too have vowed to myself to take as many of them with me when the day comes that they are performing "conversions" in the street.
I am still hooping for something cataclysmic which will give us reason to assert and impose our will.
Alternately I keep hoping that somewhere, some European or American kid who's been insulted and bullied around by moslems will channel his rage and analyze why exactly moslems are always compelled to torment everyone else around them.
Then he may decide to destroy that which moslems hold dearest since they have taken so much from the world..
I'm no engineer but I know if they can build their stupid "suicide belts" then one of our bright kids can surely build some sort of a drone capable of homing in on a dedicated target if you know what I mean.
You are definitely right, the way things are going right now.. British knuckling under when they should be voting BNP for example.. and here in the USA we have these two "candidates" for president.
The day may well come that we will have to help ourselves in a non-state actor sort of way.
The only way we can get our States to act at this time would be a devastating attack something akin to World War 2. Something that would require each and every one of our citizens to wake up and stop what they are doing and stand together as one.
These small acts of terrorism combined with them flooding our countries and we giving them more and even more aid to have even more babies who them "immigrate" to our countries is definitely a recipe for suicide.
Posted by: Ummah Gummah at July 8, 2008 2:13 PM
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