The "stunned members" of this august body should have run this guy out of the building, and then out of the country. Our friends the Pakistanians, stalwart defenders against terrorism. Riiiiiiight.

Posted by: QuickHenryTheFlit at August 30, 2008 8:36 AM

"Only those who indulge in immoral acts should be afraid." --Israr the tribal barbarian

Newsflash, Israr: Honor Killings are immoral acts. So, be afraid, be very afraid, because you are headed to the fiery furnace. Hey - you and Mo can catch-up!

Posted by: darcy at August 30, 2008 9:39 AM

""These are centuries-old traditions, and I will continue to defend them"
--- quoting a member of the Pakistani Parliament

A stirring call. Akin to "Give me liberty, or give me death."

"Give me honor killings, or give me death."

Noble words, stirrig sentiments.

Posted by: Hugh at August 30, 2008 11:40 AM

There is an account of Umar the second caliph, flogging his son to death, for fornication:

"In the time of the second Kalifah, Umar bin Khattab, his son was found guilty of fornication. Umar carried out the punishment himself. He did not let the others, who might be lenient, because it was the case of the son of the Khalifah, who was more powerful in his day than any President in this present day!

While he was lashing his son, the son demanded for water, because he was exhausted and very thirsty after last number 80! Umar stopped and ask that the part of the Qur'an that dealt with punishment be recited. After the recitation, he told the son that there was no giving of drink as part of the recitation. But the son had expired! Umar, did not stop, until he completed the remaining 20 more lashes! That night, after he was buried, Umar dreamt and saw the son, who was thanking his father, that the 20 lashes after he had died, was what made him a person of Paradise that quick!"

at
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-100439.0.html

but it does not cite an Islamic source.
Since he was one of the 'rightly guided caliphs' I suppose Umar's would be a powerful precedent for Muslims to follow - except that bumping of sons for supposed sexual immorality is not something I've come across happening in Muslim societies and the son's death could be seen as unintentional.

Posted by: wallyUK at August 30, 2008 1:07 PM

We have that here, too. It's called "abortion".

Posted by: dm60462 at August 30, 2008 3:23 PM

"These are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them." from the title.

Just imagine what a hell on earth it would be if we all used an excuse like that to do ... whatever. Such as burn witches, post heads of the executed, sacrifice humans to ancient deities - well I guess it would be like living in, I don't know, Pakistan.

Posted by: charlie at August 30, 2008 9:42 PM

dm60462

do you *really* think that women don't procure abortions in the Islamosphere, too? Do you *really* think that there are no illicit pregnancies in the Islamosphere?

There are 'no' abortions in the Islamosphere because 1. girls who are discovered to have gotten pregnant outside marriage - and that includes getting pregnant after being raped, even by your own *brother*, as happened to one 'Palestinian' Arab Muslim girl - are normally punished by...death. Kill the girl AND the baby at once.

2. With the prospect of an 'honor' murder hanging over their heads, terrified girls in a fix have an even stronger motive to attempt a 'backstreet' or 'coathanger' abortion on themselves, than poor girls had in the West in the olden days.

Girls in the West in the olden days might have been shamed by getting 'into trouble', but instead of being 'honor murdered' by their families they would merely disappear discreetly into the Convent or the Salvation Army home, followed by adoption for the baby, or even its blithe incorporation into the girl's family (I know of two such cases, one from family history, the other I saw as it happened, in an Irish Catholic family to whom we were neighbours ); or a shotgun wedding. And just imagine what your average hillbilly family would do to the cad who had raped or seduced Cissy or Annie! (The Irish Catholic family I mentioned just now, were not in the least interested in making the impregnator, who was a completely useless cad, marry their precious, silly girl; instead he was visited by a delegation of steely-eyed males who suggested that the climate might be much healthier on the other side of the continent...he was last seen disappearing in a cloud of dust).

But in the Islamosphere the penalty for being discovered to be pregnant by your lover - or your rapist, even if that rapist is a family member - is...DEATH.

A wealthy girl in one of the more kafirized Muslim-majority countries might perhaps pay a doctor or midwife to perform an abortion and thus conceal her 'crime'. A poor girl will be driven to use a coathanger, or drugs, or suchlike, and probably end up killing herself anyway, as well as the baby. Or sometimes she'll just commit suicide.

So: maybe the Islamosphere has fewer officially recorded abortions. But I'll bet that plenty of suicides, and plenty of ghastly 'honor' murders carried out by mum, dad, uncles, brothers and male cousins, involve inconveniently-conceived babies dying right along with their unfortunate young mothers.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 31, 2008 4:04 AM

I know of Pakistani men and women who love each other from the center of their being. By the actions of Israr Ullah Zehri they now disappear into a multitude for whom marriage is but a gesture of parental affection.

May I remain open to other aspects of Pakistani culture and to other translations from Urdu of what Zehri calls honor.

Posted by: David at August 31, 2008 1:36 PM

David, I'm sure they do love each other. It's called Stockholm Syndrome. No woman in a forced marriage to a cousin could ever, ever fall in love. What we in the West consider to be 'love' is a completely nonexistent concept anywhere that Islam thrives. In order to be a true Muslim one must necessarily be a malignant narcissist. Malignant narcissists are incapable of having any regard for human life, let alone love for another human being, even a child. The Muslim concept of 'love' is lust, pure and simple, just like 'marriage' in Islam in no way inplies love, partership, reciprocity, commitment, consent, or monogamy. It is sex slavery, pure and simple, just a business transaction between two men regarding money and a vagina to which all Muslim women submit under physical duress. They may be in love, David, but not if they're real Muslims.

Posted by: jdamn at August 31, 2008 2:49 PM

"We have that here, too. It's called "abortion".
Posted by: dm60462

Are you trying to equate abortions with honour killings? What's your point?

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at August 31, 2008 3:23 PM

Jdamn, I will not judge a custom by its abuses; Western and Islamic marriage have there fill of such. Nor by its endurance; circumstances that shined upon a custom a thousand years ago may become significantly altered next year. I will only state that one of the most dishonorable acts that a human being can take passed itself off last week in Pakistan as an act of "honor."

I know a Pakistani couple whose mutual affection does not allow me to distinguish them from other couples that I know. Not only was their marriage arranged but--to my surprise--a mutual friend (one of my best) participated in the bride's selection. If parents have a special understanding of those qualities that make a good marriage, then I suggest that they impart them quickly and do away with such arrangements.

Forgive my being naive but are young men buried alive in Pakistan for refusing?

Posted by: David at September 1, 2008 10:34 AM

Actually David there has been a spate of honor killings of men in Europe, most of whom were betrothed to some 11-year-old cousin with 3 teeth from the old country. Read Islam in Europe - there are roughly two stories a week, and they've even opened up shelters for men who escape. So yeah. Maybe not in Pakistan or any other Islamic paradise where marriages are arranged in order for 'family reunifictaion' (Eurabification) to take place, rather than just out-and-out sex slavery, but men do frequently die in honor killings.

And maybe some of these couples do harbor a certain affection for each other especially after having a few kids, but given the fact that I have always made up my own mind about everything and rebelled against anything that was proscribed for me, especially when I was a teenager, which is how old most muslimas are when their families pimp them away, I can never, ever believe in love in arranged marriage. Furthermore, on a biological level, Paki women are multilated because they are Shafiis, and the release of oxytocin, which only happens after orgasm, is an essential ingredient for creating that human bond that defines what we in the West consider to be 'love,' and that doesn't happen in those marriages. I could also never love someone who even had the option of marrying 3 other wives, raping me, beating me, or accusing me of adultery should I ever try to leave because he didn't live up to my expectations. I could also never love my family if they pimped me away to some guy I didn't choose. I could never love a Muslim or anyone who had such a low opinion of women or who regarded us as useless, when the fact of the matter is that women civilize and socialize men, and without us having equal power in every sphere of life you have, well, tribal 1000 BC Pakistan.

Furthermore, and I would not extend this to Muslims generally, but Muslims do frequently use the word 'love' to mean lust. Arab men who don't know me tell me they 'love' me all the time (until I open my big Italian/Jewish mouth), I guess because I have a Semitic nose which they find attractive, and blonde hair and blue eyes, which they find exotic.

Posted by: jdamn at September 1, 2008 7:25 PM

You are well versed in all of this, Jdamn. So an intertwining thread of "family re-unifications" gave Israr Ullah Zehri the hope of transmigration: an intimation or a presumption of immortality. In desperation he grabbed the myth and slew the prize. Had he believed in Adam & Eve, he would have realized that its all re-unification.

I can't imagine what goes on in any mind that having you before it would rely on custom to determine your worth: even the custom of equality. I would nurture an openness to another, sensing one area where I am out of my league and another where I might expect to offer more support.

Posted by: David at September 1, 2008 11:18 PM