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And why not, exactly?
"Saudi Arabia to build a mosque in Moscow," from Interfax, November 21:
Moscow, November 21, Interfax – King of Saudi Arabia has initiated construction of a mosque and Islamic cultural center in Moscow.“If Russian authorities allocate a parcel of land, then Saudi Arabia will finance the building,” Head of Foreign Department at the Russian Muftis Council Rushan Abbyasov told Interfax-Religion....
"Russian mufti recognizes the Saudi have right not to allow Christians to Mecca while Christians can build a church in Arabia," from Interfax, November 25:
Moscow, November 25, Interfax – Co-chairman of Russian Mufti Council Nafigullah Ashirov has recognized the right of Saudi Arabia not to let Christians to Mecca and Medina, though Christians have the right to build their own church in the country.He told this to an Interfax-Religion correspondent commenting on the address of Russian Orthodox public figures to the Saudi king with the request to observe the rights of Christian living in Arabia.
“We can’t give instructions that contradict the acting laws of other country, no matter if it is America, Great Britain or Israel. My personal opinion is inseparable from acting laws,” the Mufti said.
I hope his coreligionists in America, Great Britain and Israel take those words to heart.
“If Christians can visit Mecca and Medina or not - this question doesn't fall within my province, but it is an absolutely different country, they have their own leaders and laws. Israel also has its own laws: for example, people under 45 are not allowed to Al-Aqsa Mosque, it is their country, and they decided such wise. There is a country – there is a law, the laws should be respected and stick to,” he went on to say.Ashirov believes, when the number of Orthodox believers in Saudi Arabia will reach such a level that they could organize their own community, “there will be no problems with building an Orthodox Church in Saudi Arabia.”
And how exactly would the number of Orthodox believers in Saudi Arabia ever reach such a level, while Saudis so vehemently discourage all non-Muslim religious practice?
Answering the question, if an Orthodox community has a right to build a church in Saudi Arabia, the Mufti said, “Why not! However everything should be done on legal basis: if they turn to an appropriate state structure and have permission, they will surely do it.”
And how will they get legal permission when such a thing is illegal in Saudi Arabia?
Anyway, now it gets good:
"Russian Orthodox figures ask Saudi King’s permission to build a Christian church in Arabia," from Interfax, November 25:
Moscow, November 25, Interfax – Representatives of Orthodox public organizations addressed the King of Saudi Arabia an open letter with a request to build an Orthodox Church in his country.The address, conveyed to Interfax-Religion, was initiated after the Saudi Kingdom announced its plans to build a mosque in Moscow.
“You often say that Islam is a religion of justice. However, if Saudi Arabia builds mosques in dozens of Christian countries, isn't it just to build a church for Christians living in Your Kingdom!" the letter says.
To support their words the authors quoted Chairman of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran who said that "if Muslims believe it right to have a great striking mosque in Rome, than it is right for Christians to build a church in Riyadh.”
Orthodox believers remind that preachers of monotheism - Christians - came to Mecca and Medina several centuries before Muslims, while Jews historically resided there. Therefore, it is unjust not to allow them in the territories, where their ancestors lived, where their churches and cemeteries were located.
“Saudi Arabia, as any other country of the world, is a multiconfessional and policonfessional state. It would be just to grant the freedom of faith to Christian minority as their share exceeds 10 per cent,” the address further says.
Its authors consider it is very important to lift restrictions on visits of Christians to Mecca and Medina, to permit them to wear crosses, to publish religious literature and preach their religion. “It would be just to create the same conditions for Saudi Christians as Muslims have in Russia,” Orthodox activists stressed.
“It is the only way to make interreligious dialogue honest and just,” the address written by the Moscow Division of the Union of Orthodox citizens, the Radonezh Society and the Byzantium Club concludes.
“It is the only way to make interreligious dialogue honest and just.” Quite so!
Thanks to John Doe for all the links.
Posted by Robert at November 27, 2008 7:39 AM
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Justice! Reciprocity! Rights for ALL believers!
Posted by: John C![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 27, 2008 7:55 AM
+ XP +
Posted by: John C at November 27, 2008 7:57 AM
"Israel also has its own laws: for example, people under 45 are not allowed to Al-Aqsa Mosque"
-- from the statement by the Muslim cleric living in Russia, presumably with Russian citizenship
Surely this man knows that a "time, place, manner" restriction is different from a blanket one; that Israel only, and intermittently at that, forbids younger Muslim males from going to Al-Aqsa Mosque because those under the age of 45 tend to be those who bring those large rocks up to the Temple Mount deliberately (they aren't just lying around in the Mosque of Omar or anywhere else up there), in order to then rain them down on Jews worshipping at the Western Wall. It has nothing at all to do either with the Saudi and Muslim prohibition -- on pain of death --of non-Muslims merely visiting, out of curiosity, Mecca (and Medina), nothing to do with the fact that despite there being millions of Christians (foreign wage-slaves) in Saudi Arabia, there is not a single church, not a single meeting-place, for Christians, and those found with a Bible, or even overheard singing Christmas carols (as happened to some British nurses a few years ago), can be seized, tortured, and sentenced to jail. And in some cases, if a Muslim is found to exhibit signs of conversion to Christianity, the penalty can be death.
That's a bit different from merely preventing young Muslim males, hell-bent on mayhem and maiming and worse, from fulfilling their ardently murderous desires.
Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2008 8:31 AM
Demanding the right to erect an Orthodox Church in Saudi Arabia must be part of Russia's assertiveness and the fact that it is sure of itself, with no need to pander to political-correctness junkies as most gutless Western leaders always do.
The West should learn a thing or two from Russia's example before the Russians themselves fall victim to muslim demographic conquest, as some have predicted will eventually be their fate (unless they take strong action against it.)
Posted by: Proud_Kafir7908 at November 27, 2008 8:36 AM
""Israel also has its own laws: for example, people under 45 are not allowed to Al-Aqsa Mosque"
-- from the statement by the Muslim cleric living in Russia, presumably with Russian citizenship"
More to the point, Russia helps Iran against Israel.
Posted by: Columnist at November 27, 2008 8:37 AM
Well, well. Three cheers for the Russian Orthodox, and two cheers for the Russian muftis.
Posted by: ebonystone at November 27, 2008 9:57 AM
This is not Russia calling for anything.
This is a Russian mufti throwing a bit of taqiyya around, knowing nothing will ever come of it. Much like Australia's sheik Fehmi who recently blabbered something about women and men worshipping together.
Check back in a year or two and you'll find that nothing ever came of it.....
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 27, 2008 11:30 AM
Agreed Shiek, but the one thing this does is highlight the issue of religious freedom (or lack thereof) in Saudi Arabia. This push for houses of worship in Saudi Arabia for non-Muslims should and must become a rising cacophony of insistence...Saudi apartheid must become a rallying cry for the anti-Jihad every bit as much as Israeli "apartheid" is for the other side.
Posted by: Cornelius at November 27, 2008 11:58 AM
It can't be, Corni.
The prophets last words were "let there not be 2 religions in the Arabian peninsula"- or some such; and that is as immutable as the unholy Koran.
We can huff and puff, but unless Islam is destroyed nothing will ever change....
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 27, 2008 12:08 PM
Reciprocity, if that ever comes to pass, which is very unlikely, must also call for Moslems caught carrying Korans in Russia be arrested and put up on death sentence charges.
610 * 623 * 632 * 1066 * 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001
Will the ol' blue eyes Vladimir's government do this? No way. Marxism has too much affinity for the "religion" Islam to let the Russians do that.
Posted by: 33:21 at November 27, 2008 12:11 PM
I suppose this is a start, but there are a few other important questions that need addressing, too.
1. How many churches, and where would they be located? If they're stuck in the middle of nowhere, then the offer is hollow.
2. Would they be readily accessible by anyone, and any time? If one can't get to them, then the offer is hollow.
3. Can the churches be built without interference from Saudis about architectural issues? If not, the offer is hollow.
4. Would services be allowed at the discretion of the local congregation, or would they be regulated by Saudi law? If they are regulated, then the offer is hollow.
5. Would the local diocese or equivalent be allowed to grow and expand according to their needs, or would they be regulated? If they are regulated then the offer is hollow.
6. Would the local congregation be allowed to flourish without interference? If not, the offer is hollow.
7. Would the laws of dhimmitude be abrogated, so Christians could practice their faith and live as equals to Saudi citizens? If not, hollow.
The answer to every one of the above questions, as well as a few others readers here could probably think of, is likely to be in the negative, as the Saudi Authorities are incapable of abrogating their own shariah-driven laws to do ANYTHING that might elevate other religions in their country. Color me cynical, but I just don't see this happening.
The Mufti of Moscow is free to dissemble because it appears that construction on the Moscow Mosque has already begun. In allowing building of mosques in their country, the Russians appear to have been as negligent as we have been in thinking through the consequences, and including vainly hoping that some day, any day now, in fact, the Muslims will suddenly allow churches to be built in Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Eastview at November 27, 2008 12:11 PM
No matter what the Muslims say, they will not allow Christianity to flourish in Muslim lands....not one little bit...judge them by their actions and act or react accordingly. If you react correctly..it will be ugly.
Posted by: pulsar182 at November 27, 2008 2:05 PM
Isn't Moscow the center of the Russian Orthodox Church? Like Mecca is of Islam?
So as far as the reciprocity equations go, how about this (and Volodaya Putin, please go along with it):
For a mosque in Moscow, a Russian Orthodox church must be allowed in Mecca, and Russian Orthodox Christians allowed to visit it.
If the Saudis only allow a church elsewhere in Arabia, then the Russians should only allow a mosque elsewhere in Russia, but not Moscow: maybe Chechnya, or somewhere along the Kazakh border.
As a Hindu, I'd like all mosques in Varanasi and Mathura to be either sealed, or destroyed. If Muslims want them back, let us build a Shiva temple in Mecca and a Krishna temple in Medina, then we'll talk.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 28, 2008 2:27 AM
Sheikh
The Russian Orthodox organizations who sent the letter to the Saudi king are what are being referred to here as 'Russia', although they aren't: Medvedev, or more precisely, Putin, is what's Russia. If Putin wants there to be a church in Mecca, he can easily put the kabash on any mosque in Moscow (despite the rhyming, I still don't like how it sounds) and make the one conditional on the other. But like I said, the Russian orthodox organizations should block the Moscow mosque, and settle for nothing less than a church in Mecca for that to happen.
I can't wait for oil to be $1 a barrel, so that Mohammedans get even less of our money for adventures like in Mumbai.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 28, 2008 2:37 AM
Infidel Pride,
Good point.
Force muslims into submission & only then they give in. This is the core doctrine in the quran.
But beware, once their numbers grow, they will fight. Its a systematic approach that could be studied as a science of its own.
The indian government needs to be very strong, having draconian laws & control to overcome this, thus implementing the steps needed.
Another suggestion is to deny any muslim the right to go to saudi for hajj, this will outright send a message to them.
A sad week for Mumbai.
Posted by: tjwork at November 28, 2008 3:03 AM
The Russians want to build a church in Saudi Arabia?
That has about as much chance as a pig scratching its arse on the Kaa'baa.
Posted by: Stephen Gash SIOE England at November 28, 2008 8:08 AM
I pray - regularly and fervently - for a Christian revival in every part of the Russian Federation.
Last I heard, a translation of the Bible into the Tatar language was having a most gratifying result...many Russian Tatar nominal Muslims were converting to Christianity.
The most constructive thing one can do for Russia is to support to the hilt the completely ecumenical - and respectful of the Orthodox - work of the Bible Society in Russia, which encourages reading of Scripture among Russians, provides personal Bibles for soldiers in the Russian army, and is also hard at work translating the Bible into the languages of the non-Slavic peoples within the Federation, numbers of whom are Muslim.
(Sponsoring translations into all such languages, of the great Russian liturgies, hymns and works of theology and spiritual devotion would also be a good idea; and where is the philanthropist who will arrange for Fr Zakaria Botros' brilliant programs to be dubbed into colloquial Russian, Tatar, Chechen, and other suitable languages?.)
Purely on the grounds of political prudence and general peace and quiet, surely even the most corrupt Russian politician should be able to see that a diminishment in the number of professing Muslims, and a corresponding increase in the number of professing Christians (be they Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant) should surely be a Good Thing.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 29, 2008 3:43 AM
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