Remarks during the question-and-answer session:
Nonie says that she hopes that the Left as well as the Right will take up the cause of the apostates.
Ibn Warraq says that the Left tends to side with the Islamists. Liberals tend to be more politically correct, but many on the Right, religious conservatives, tend to be wary of criticizing somebody else’s religion. So both sides downplay the danger of creeping Sharia and the Islamization of the West. We need to educate the political class on both sides.
Nonie says that she believes that there is a huge number of Muslims who don’t practice Islam anymore. Ibn Warraq cites an article by Anthony Browne in the Times of London (2005), saying that 200,000 Muslims have left Islam in England alone, and face persecution and death threats. In France the churches keep figures of the number of people who convert from Islam to Christianity, about 200 a year. In Indonesia, many Hindus — several hundred thousand — who had converted to Islam were converting back.
Nonie says there are TV shows beaming into the Arab world promoting Christianity. People call in from places like Saudi Arabia saying they left Islam. But if you’re in Saudi Arabia, what can you do? You can’t go to church, you can’t have a Bible, you can’t hand on your Christian faith to your children, so what can you do?
Mr. Ali from Saudi Arabia has agreed to sign the pledge calling for an end to the death penalty for apostasy, the pledge being circulated by Former Muslims United. Ibn Warraq says that they’re going to post two videos on YouTube — an atheist filming in Mecca and an imam saying that atheism is growing in Saudi Arabia. At least ten people in Riyadh have proclaimed their atheism.
Nonie says that Islam is very threatened by other religions. In mosques she grew up hearing prayers, “May God destroy the Jews and the infidels.” This is how we used to end our religious service. When you grow up with this, it can even sound normal, and good and holy.
We are trying to alert the government to our plight. I received many hate emails, and threatening emails, and I called the FBI. They were very understanding, and took copies, but that was it. So we are living in America, with books being sold and read in mosques encouraging people to kill us. It is not solely taught in the Middle East. It is taught in every religious institution. This is serious. We are in fear for our lives. We are asking the government for help. We are very vulnerable. We are asking for some kind of legislation that will help protect us. It is a very unique thing. There isn’t any other religion on earth that demands the murder of those who leave it except the Mafia. But at least you enter the Mafia willingly and voluntarily. In Islam, you’re born into it. The threat crosses borderlines. Salman Rushdie is not Iranian. He was not born in Iran. The threat is an international network of tyranny against us, and it’s coming to a neighborhood near you.
I don’t understand how anyone can not believe Rifqa Bary. She is 17 years old. She is obviously a very sweet young girl. Her fear is in my opinion 100% true. The Islamic legal system is against her. Even if her father and mother are the nicest people, they are under pressure from the Islamic community to do something about their child. She has crossed the line. They will never allow her to live as a Christian. It’s impossible! It’s not allowed under Islam! I wonder: if this girl was a Mormon, or a Jewish girl running for her life, I wonder if the government would be siding against her. We must not be afraid of Islam.
Islam is a very political religion. Islam is a state. That is why they are always counting the number of Muslim congressmen, and trying to increase the number of Muslim representatives. Islam is political, and is determined to conquer. Fast during Ramadan, pray five times a day, go to Hajj, and listen to us and do what we say. There is an underground Muslim organization in every Muslim state threatening the Muslim ruler with death if he does not adhere to Sharia. Reformers, those who try to bring democracy, are automatically apostate. If you’re a good Muslim and you follow Sharia, you have to follow all of it. You can’t pick and choose.
Jamal Jivanjee, a friend of Rifqa Bary, says he is frustrated that the media won’t tell the stories of apostates. Rifqa is 17. She could speak for herself. Why won’t the mainstream media let apostates tell their stories? Nonie answers that people think we’re exaggerating, when we tell them that Islam teaches that apostates must be killed. Many people think Rifqa is exaggerating and that she just ran away because she wanted to be free or something. Americans don’t know so much about Islam and the Middle East conflict. They think terrorism against Israel started with the “occupation.” I saw terrorism against Israel as a child in Gaza, long before the apostates. When I was growing up, I thought it was all normal. I thought that apostates were justly killed. I thought it was normal that a woman who was no longer a virgin would be killed in an honor killing. I changed because I saw a better way of living. I learned. I became an American. I used to think that apostates deserved to be killed. It’s Allah’s law. Now I think back and wonder, how could I have ever believed these things? I was indoctrinated. I went to school and was taught to hate the Jews, and that Jews must be killed, and I believed it. And now I see these things coming to America. Apostate killing is here. Honor killing is here. Antisemitism is here.
I was an antisemite. I was taught to hate Jews even though we never saw them. America changed me. Once I said to the sheikh that I felt compassion for the many poor people I saw in Egypt, but he told me that they were poor because Allah wanted them to be poor. I see so much cruelty and dysfunction in Islamic society. Muslims don’t worship only God; they worship their leaders. The system promotes dictatorships and tyranny.
I came to America and I was surprised that the churches didn’t end their prayers with curses of the non-Christians. I was surprised that the priest prayed for everyone, even the nonbelievers. But it took me a long time to figure it out. Too long. Rifqa Bary — this girl figured it out at seventeen. I figured it out at 47.
I asked Nonie just now about the claim, just posted by our friend Abdullah Mikhail, from Dr. Jamal Badawi that “there are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death, and apostasy that is accompanied by what we call today high treason, in which case the punishment is for high treason, not for apostasy.” She read a fatwa from Al-Azhar saying that an ex-Muslim living in Germany had to be killed — this fatwa contradicted Badawi’s claim, as the ex-Muslim in Germany was in no way committing treason against any state. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islamic law, and not just for treason.
Nonie says that it is very dangerous to believe anyone who claims to be an apostate, because terrorists will come in to the organization and infiltrate it. Nonie also, in response to a question, explains that Reliance of the Traveller — Umdat al-Salik — contains detailed directives regarding the killing of apostates. It is certified by Al-Azhar as a reliable guide to Sharia. Meanwhile, it is all one-sided. Muslims have total access to the West, and can preach and spread Islam, but we cannot build churches, etc., in Muslim lands. We are going to see majority-Muslim areas in Europe and there will be violence there as there is now in Chechnya and Israel.