Pamela Geller interviews Bat Ye’or, the world’s leading scholar of dhimmitude, Eurabia, and Islamic antisemitism, last Sunday. This is the full 53-minute interview.
UPDATE: Transcript, courtesy Atlas Shrugs readers Diane and Don:
Geller: Good afternoon, we are here with Bat Ye’or, world scholar on Islam in the West, and historian. We were here together where I called to the Pope–she’s my Pope, anyway–back in 2007 where we discussed Islam in the West. Today I’d like to talk about something else that you’ve been working on. The book that’s in Italian, and it’s coming out in English, Toward the Universal Caliphate. I think that the Ambassador John Bolton is writing the forward.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, he promised to, and I am very grateful to him.
Geller: And what we’d like to talk about today is how the left, how the West, is enabling the encroaching, or should I say the galloping, Islamization of the West. Okay, the first question I have for you is, How are Western authorities advancing the Islamization of the West, the encroaching Sharia?
Bat Ye’or: I can only speak about Europe. Because in America the situation is quite different. But in Europe it has been since 1970’s when there was a strong problem of Palestinian terrorism. There have been arrangements, dialogue, engagement between the European government and countries of the Middle East. So this type of dialogue and complacent relationships, where the European countries accepted the requests of the Arab League countries, has spread in Europe. Lots of Muslim cultural centers, and also has encouraged Muslim immigration, which is of course promoting and bringing the development of mosques. Because you cannot have a repopulation without that mosque–if you have, you are going to have an important immigrant population, you have to give them their religious rights. And this means also the Arabic lessons, Arab institutions, and so on and so on. And so we could have seen since the seventies until now a progression of an Islamization and Arabization of the West, without the European populations being aware of it. And especially that these arrangements were organized at the level of the cultural centers, the universities, the media, and so on, dialogues between Western or European university and Arab world, all those arrangements have been done without the knowledge of the populations.
So, one of the aspects, therefore, of the Islamization of Europe is immigration, of course. Demographic immigration, which brings Islamic culture. The other element is multiculturalism. The European governments have promoted multiculturalism without having this important problem discussed with the European population. And another element, another important factor, is globalization. Globalization means that sovereign countries lose their own sovereignty on many aspects and accept global government, which comes from the EU, the United Nations. From the United Nations. So this we see for instance that the United Nations regulations are more and more imposing themselves and ruling the countries, the Western countries, Western European countries. And I found this a danger because the OIC, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, is having always an increasing influence on the United Nations and on the United Nations holdings. And, therefore, I think that it is a danger for democracy because the European people are losing the control they have on their own politics. Because they cannot control, they cannot decide what is going on in the United Nations. And their own democratic institutions are weakened by the development of the United Nations domination and rules. So the populations don’t know what is happening. They have lost the control of their own policy, and their own future. Within the movement of globalization.
Geller: Yes. Now I did a series of articles on the EuroMed partnership. Now isn’t the EuroMed partnership a continuation of this policy, where basically you’re opening up the floodgates to Africa, freedom of movement? I don’t expect Europeans will be going there, I expect that the Africans will be coming into Europe, without paperwork. I mean, it’s opening up the floodgates to immigration.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, of course. This was the first beginning of the globalization, if you want, process. It was restricted to the Mediterranean region. It was Europe and the Arab Mediterranean countries.
Bat Ye’or: So this has created a syncretic hybridization of the Judeo-Christian culture and Islamic culture. We see more and more of that in Europe. A kind of hybridization, Islamic hybridization of the Western culture. So much so that the European Union renounced what is the pillar of its identity. It is the Judeo-Christian identity, and it refused to recognize it in order to accommodate Muslim immigration, Muslim immigrants.
So you can say that there is in fact this Mediterranean society where there is a symbiosis, but the symbiosis is more in the Islamization of Europe than in the Westernization of the Islamic countries.
Bat Ye’or: Because we see that the OIC, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, is now working in order to root the Islamic world in the values and the tradition of the Koran, and the Sunnah. So as to make it even more Islamic. It is not going towards us, towards Westernization. But the new development of the future of the Islamic world will be toward more Islam and more radicalization, while the OIC requests from the Western countries and Europe that it becomes multicultural.
So, in fact it is asking from us what they refuse to do in the Islamic countries.
Geller: And America joining the Alliance of Civilizations, which to my understanding is something of a proxy to the Organization of the Islamic Conference–I saw it as very disturbing news. I was wondering if you could give us your take on America joining the Alliance of Civilizations.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, well the Alliance of Civilizations is a very huge organization, which is, as you say, proxy of the OIC. Its main concern as it’s stated in its report written in 2006 is to bring together the Western World with Islam. This is one of its main focus. So–how to do it? Well, it promotes the projects of the OIC. We know what the OIC is requesting from the Western world and its Alliance of Civilization. It’s the mouth of the OIC.
Now, on the other hand, of course, it is important that especially in the age of nuclear weapons that we avoid wars and conflicts. Because they will be very dangerous. However, we have to recognize that we are now engaged into the conflict, which is a jihadist conflict. And the West must get out of its culture of denial and lies, and acknowledge that terrorism is in fact a war, a type of war. And it has to ask the OIC, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which is an umbrella organization for the 56 Muslim countries, and which wielded enormous power, so it has to demand and request from this organization that it has to make also some steps in the direction of the West. It is not only the West that has to renounce many of its principles and its own identity in order to meet Islam, but it has to be a cross-direction process, that both must go toward the one another. Otherwise, if only the West is doing all the efforts, the West will be gone — already a dhimmi continent, a dhimmi society and dhimmi culture.
Geller: And just for people who are not familiar with the term dhimmi, you are the leading expert on it, you coined the term dhimmitude–and Eurabia, too, that’s yours. Just for the people, explain dhimmitude, explain the dhimmi, just so they understand what it means.
Bat Ye’or: Well, dhimmitude is the civilization that was developed by the non-Muslim populations where conquered by jihad. Because jihad is not just any war, jihad has an ideology, and it has its ruling, its jurisdiction. And this jurisdiction imposes on those populations a total subjection to the Islamic rulers, and also imposes some rules to which the non-Muslims must abide and must apply. And among those rules it is the fact, the prohibition to criticize Islam. So if you cannot criticize only one religion, this is absolutely contrary to our principles in the West, because everything can be criticized.
Bat Ye’or: And especially that Islam is together a religion, a law and the politics. So if you cannot criticize the politics of Islam, and Islam wants to Islamize you, so this means that you are neutralized. You cannot defend yourself.
Bat Ye’or: Exactly. And so, this is in fact a tendency that we can see in the OIC, with the policy of denouncing so much Islamophobia in the West. The policy of accusation of Islamophobia is, in a way, also a means to neutralize–a political means to neutralize our defense. And we have to be aware of that.
Geller: Yes. And people are not aware of it, and the media is aligned with the terror force, because it’s part of the obfuscation–it’s very confusing to people.
Bat Ye’or: Yes. It is very confusing, because first of all, the Western world, and I’ll also say many Muslims, do not know the Muslim Sharia, the Muslim jurisdiction. They don’t understand that, these rules. They don’t understand what is the blasphemy law, for instance. What are the Sharia laws. They don’t understand. So, for them, this is something they cannot fight against, because they don’t understand what it is. But also many Muslims don’t know that, and for them they can consider that the reaction of the West to the adoption of certain Muslim customs can be Islamophobic. Because they don’t know the background of this history. They don’t know the history of jihad, for instance.
So, because the Islamic view of history, the Islamic interpretation of history is only according to Sharia — and this means that Islamic history is perfect. And there was nothing wrong–jihad has nothing wrong. This is why we cannot criticize jihad. Because everything is perfect. So we have a conflict, an argument, even on words. What is jihad. What is terrorism. We cannot even criticize jihad, for instance. We also cannot criticize Islamic justice. We have to say, we have to know that Islamic justice is the justice according to Sharia. But we cannot abide by this interpretation of justice, because it means–Sharia promotes the cutting of the hands, also crucifixion in case of apostasy, and many other aspects. And so this is not justice for us. We have another definition of justice. Justice is equality of men and women, it is equality of all human beings, it is based on the Ten Commandments, it is based on The Enlightenment, it is based on a lot of other principles which are not based on Sharia. So when we speak about justice, even this word has different meaning. When we speak of peace, it has different meaning. Peace in Islam is peace according to Sharia. Peace for us is contrary to what this means in the Sharia.
Geller: Now, you saw that the counterterrorism advisor to President Obama said that jihad was a legitimate tenet of Islam. Isn’t this very dangerous? Isn’t this more obfuscation?
Bat Ye’or: Yes, of course. Because this is according with the Islamic vision of its own history. Jihad–because it is a war to expand the religion of Islam in the world–is a just, a perfect and just activity. Because it is done according to the Koran’s request and command. So it cannot be wrong, because everything which is Koranic is perfect, because it comes straight from Allah. You cannot criticize. So jihad is according to Muhammad’s activities and commandments.
So if us, the Western world, which has been for 13 centuries the victims of jihad, which is a very dangerous and violent war, and we cannot criticize this war–and we say it is perfect, it is good–so then it is self-defeating.
Geller: Yes. Now what do you think of the political significance of the Islamic delegitimization of Judaism and Christianity?
Bat Ye’or: Well, I think that this of course this goes with the Islamic belief that considers that Jews and Christians have falsified the only religion, which is Islam. And which considers that the Hebrew history and the Hebrew prophets were Muslim prophets, including Jesus. That Jesus was a Muslim prophet.
Geller: Yeah, they ran that on the bus ads.
Bat Ye’or: Yes. So in this case, if the Bible is the history of Muslims before the appearance of Muhammad, if we have falsified in our Bible, First and Second Testaments, the real message of Islam that was preached by the Hebrew prophets and by Jesus, then we have falsified the real religion. And therefore, our historical conception on Israel and Christianity are all false. Because the Biblical story is not a Jewish history, it is a Muslim history according to the Islamic view. So this is why Israel has no legitimate right in its own country. So we see here that Christians cannot, if they are Christians, they cannot accept that Israel has no legitimate national roots in the land of the Bible. Because the Christians have accepted the First Testament. It is part of them–their own religious identity.
Bat Ye’or: So, if they renounce that, and if they accept that Jesus was a Muslim prophet who preached Islam, they renounce therefore Jesus, the Hebrew Jesus, the Jewish Jesus. They renounce, in fact, their whole Christianity. So we have here a very important religious conflict which we haven’t yet discussed with the Muslim world. And until they recognize the legitimacy of our own religious history and identity, and they renounce to Islamize our history and usurp our history, I don’t see how we can get together. We cannot have an agreement.
Another problem is that the Muslims say that all children are born Muslims. Therefore, they see us as apostates. And because we are born Muslim, you see, in principle.
Geller: I understand.
Bat Ye’or: So there are all those aspects that usually the Western public do not acknowledge, do not know. So that this conflict, which is very complicated because it has theological, political, legal aspects, historical aspects, is not understood.
Geller: But how are you going to get them to recognize the legitimacy of Judiasm and Christianity, when their whole religion is based on falsifying it? It’s like when I discuss expunging the Koran of its violent texts. The problem I see–and you are the world’s leading historian on Islamic anti-Semitism–it’s very much a part of the doctrine, is it not? Can you discuss Islamic anti-Semitism with us for just a bit?
Bat Ye’or: Yes, well it starts with the problem of Muhammad, because the prophet Muhammad wanted to Islamize the Jews. He believed he was bringing a message in conformity with their Judaism. And he thought the same with Christianity, that they would be accepted by the Christians, too. But then in Medina, there was a big Jewish community, and they, of course, they didn’t accept his –
Bat Ye’or: His ideas. Because also he didn’t know much about the Bible. And therefore, there was a conflict, and Muhammad got rid of the Jews there. It is well known. One of the tribes, he expelled them. Another tribe he expelled and took all their belongings. And the third one was massacred –
Bat Ye’or: The Qurayzah. And also the children and women were taken in slavery. But then he continued his war against the Jews who lived in the other oasis in Arabia. And then there was a continual conflict, because Muhammad thought that he was bringing the real Bible, that the Koran was the real Bible. You see? And therefore, we still have this conflict now. This is why the Muslim says that our Bible is a falsified version of the Koran of Islam. You see–so, there is in his conflict with the Jews in Arabia, and in his war against the Jews, of course he developed verses–verses were revealed–which direct him to wage war against the Jews. Anti-Semitism or Judeophobia, in this case Judeophobia, developed very strongly from the war of Muhammad against the Jews. And then it was taken through the biography of the prophet, which were published two centuries later, and in the hadith, which are the sacred scriptures of Islam. And it was there given an institutional and legal form, the status of the Jews and Christians. And therefore, these, since they are considered sacred — so we have a whole body of sacred Islamic rulings which are extremely Judeophobic, and also anti-Christian, because often what was said to the Jews was said about the Christians. And the Christians are also considered even worse than the Jews. And these people don’t know it. Because they are called as idolaters –
Geller: Idolaters. Yes.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, or associationists. This is the people who associate other gods to one G-d. So, in fact–and also because of the war that developed later with the Christians, against the Christians, so the history, Islamic history, and legal institutions and rulings have a whole body of anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, also anti-pagan–important, how you say, baggage.
Bat Ye’or: And this absolutely, if we want a peaceful civilization, this must be examined.
Geller: Now, how would you say that the U.S. now, along with the E.U., is advancing Islam in the West?
Bat Ye’or: Well, because this is rooted in the ideology of refusing war. The E. U. was built on the refusal of any war in the nuclear age. So it has adopted an accommodating engagement policy with the Muslim world, in order to avoid conflicts. But also, there are also other reasons which are based on economic need, since the Islamic world has an enormous reserve of energy.
Bat Ye’or: So economic reasons and the desire to have good relations with the Muslim world, and the renouncement of one’s own identity — which is very strongly developed in Europe, and not in America, but this maybe will come. Because in Europe we had a very strong Nazi-leftist-Communist tendency which was anti-European and anti-religious. So because of this historical baggage, Europe wanted–didn’t mind to renounce its own identity, especially if it was a Judeo-Christian identity, which it rejected. And it went into the agreement with the Islamic world. Now we see with this Obama administration, the leftist administration, the Democratic one, we see the same vision. It is an ideology. It is the desire to create a world, a peaceful world where there won’t be any boundary, religious boundary, national boundaries. Everyone will be together. The brother and sister. But I think that Hell is paved with good intentions, and that this is not a very realistic situation, vision. We have to see that we have enemies. And we have to know why they are our enemies. And we have to deal with enemies. If we want peace, we have to deal with enemies. We cannot pretend that we have no enemies.
Geller: So what should the Western governments, what should the U.S., what should Europe be doing?
Bat Ye’or: Well, I think — I speak now about Europe — I think what we see in Europe is a development of a conscious[ness] of all those problems.
Geller: They’re becoming aware of it.
Bat Ye’or: Yes. The grassroots. The people.
Geller: Yeah, the people. We love them.
Bat Ye’or: Like, for instance, those who support Geert Wilders.
Bat Ye’or: And the others like that, also. So people are bringing pressure on their governments to force them to listen to them. Because, after all, those governments are elected in order to take care of and protect the wishes of their citizens.
Bat Ye’or: Not to make dealings with Arab countries and to arrange for a huge Muslim immigration. So they are now forcing the governors to take their responsibilities. And if they are incompetent — because the leaders of the governments are there to serve–and this is very strongly developed in America–they’re there to serve the people.
Bat Ye’or: Not to serve their pockets. Or their own ambition. So there is much more demand now, which are done on their leaders. And so they have to listen to their own people. Now, how to do it. As to the European people, this is also very much now discussed. We have to know what is our identity. It is based on what? What are the pillars of our identity? And we have to know what are the principles on which we will not discuss, will not abandon the principles–the democratic principle, the principles of our democratic freedom, of our rights. We have to know on what are they based, and what we are ready to fight for. And I think that all this is being discussed now.
Bat Ye’or: And everywhere in Europe. In different places.
Geller: But when you have the signing of the Lisbon Treaty–the last country which didn’t want to do it, Czechoslovakia. But when Ireland fell, which was surprising because they had just voted the prior June against it, doesn’t that somewhat vanquish national sovereignty?
Bat Ye’or: Of course. But this has even woken up more the European people.
Geller: The Lisbon Treaty?
Bat Ye’or: The Lisbon Treaty. Because they realized how their leaders are doing policy behind their backs and without the approval of their own citizens. So there are many people who reject the Lisbon treaty. Many people who reject the EU– the European Union. They want of course the unification, the integration of the different countries of Europe has many positive aspects, very great things. But there are discussions about what is the EU. Is it a supranational body that has confiscated the national sovereignty of the people?
Bat Ye’or: And which is engaging into globalization in a big way, and in a way that the citizen cannot control? They lose the control of their own future and their own society. So all those elements are being discussed now. And all this with a huge Muslim population in Europe, which is linked with the OIC.
Bat Ye’or: Which is acting in a contrary way to what the citizens want. So the situation is becoming very conflictual in Europe. Now you don’t have in America this situation because you are one country. You speak one language.
Bat Ye’or: It is different.
Geller: No, we’re experiencing something different. I mean, my book is coming out in July, The Post-American Presidency, the Obama Administration’s War on America, and really a basic tenet of the book is how Obama is abandoning American sovereignty, relinquishing it to international law. We are seeing that increasingly, which we find very very troubling. And he seems to not give a whit about the Tea Parties, I mean, I know that they are smeared in the media as millions of racists–which we know, this is what they do to us, they call us bigots, racists, islamophobes and so on and so forth. But how do you see it playing out in America? Because he’s very Islamophilic. You see this.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, of course, he said it. He said change, he wanted change, in policy.
Bat Ye’or: And he wanted to engage the Muslim world. So he wants to go with them, toward them, to please them.
Bat Ye’or: So it is clear that his policy will be on this space. So what I see it is that, of course with globalization, which is the engagement with the Muslim world, which is a process within the globalization. So this, of course, will lead America to relinquish some of its sovereignty. It is for the Americans to decide where they want to go. What they want to keep. How they will manage within globalization. It is very complicated program. Because we’re going to a new world now, especially with the exchange, with the immigration movements.
Bat Ye’or: With also the communication, the facilities of communication.
Bat Ye’or: So to what are we going? We are losing the past. The secure past. And we have to build the future. But with what and how? And it is a very destructured world that we have now, at least In the West–because I don’t think China has changed. The Muslim world, on the contrary, is building itself.
Bat Ye’or: This is why I called it the conflict. Because the Muslim world is getting a very strong organization, which is the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which has many instruments, internal instruments, and which — it has its own code of human rights according to Sharia, its own international tribunal, according to Sharia also, and several other bodies. And as it has said in several of its statements, the OIC wants to build the universal ummah. This is the Muslim —
Geller: Worldwide community.
Bat Ye’or: Worldwide, yes. And rooting it in the Koran and the Sunnah. So it is not like us, which are destructured. We don’t know where is our identity, we are full of guilt because of this, because of that. They have a very strong position, according to their texts. They want to create a Western Islam which is linked to the universal ummah, and which will be organized and coordinate through Muslim schools, Muslim teaching, and Muslim centers.
Geller: And the media, also?
Bat Ye’or: Muslim media. All that coordinated throughout the Western world. So we shall see this emergence of a Western Islam which will be very strongly rooted in its original values, the Koran and the Sunnah, within a Western world which is corroding, which is
Bat Ye’or: Decaying. And which doesn’t even reproduce itself.
Bat Ye’or: The youth don’t get married, don’t have children. So, demographically we don’t have a future if we don’t reproduce ourselves.
Bat Ye’or: Apart from the problem that we have, the cultural problems and the problem of own identity.
Geller: So this is — in addition to the books which I’m going to list on the website, her books, which are seminal works — this is what you cover in your latest book on The Universal Caliphate, is this what you discuss?
Bat Ye’or: Yes, yes. Exactly that. What I am discussing also is that with globalization, the democratic process of government of each country are replaced by transnational networks. Like in Europe, the Anna Lind Foundation. On a worldwide scale, the Alliance of Civilizations. The Alliance of Civilizations is a gigantic network that collaborates with several countries on different levels which are political, historical, military, religious — on all levels — and which impact on the governments of the countries through these networks. So, in fact, democratic processes are replaced now by the work of transnational networks, like, for instance, the UN. The UN is a gigantic network.
Bat Ye’or: If the UN gives a ruling, well, it supersedes the rules, the laws, of the country, of different countries. And it has to be accepted. It has to be followed up, you see. So we are now–I don’t know about America, but in Europe–we are now determined, our policy is determined, and is obeyed, to networks. Networks are by essence not individuals. There are lots of people who are working in networks.
Geller: Right. It’s collective.
Bat Ye’or: It’s collective. So, you don’t know, they are opaque. You don’t know to whom, if you are not happy of something, you cannot go to a person and complain. So it is an inhuman, anonymous organization, Kafkaesque organization, which is going to rule the world. And all this because of the OIC organization and its friends. All these networks are strongly influenced by the OIC. So the OIC is, in fact, getting more and more power into these networks that control our life.
Geller: But the idea of America, probably the most noble experiment in human history, the most moral government, it was based on individual rights. This is in our DNA. I mean, no matter how different we may all be, the basic idea of individual rights–the opposite of collectivism, the opposite of statism–I mean, Americans are going to feel this. And you see, Americans are not–while they may have been, because everything was so good and so easy–Americans are not passive. I don’t know that you’ll be able to just snatch away this idea that defines us. I mean, I don’t know if America will save the world, Bat. I don’t know. But I don’t know that they’ll go quietly. Do you think they’ll go quietly?
Bat Ye’or: I hope they will not, because this will mean — because America is a very great country. It is really a pillar of Western civilization. It has got the best of it. Also, it has many dark aspects, in its own history, but at least it recognized it, and this is very important. Because every nation, every people, every individual have that aspect in their personality and in their history. What is important is to recognize it.
Bat Ye’or: And to change it.
Geller: This is fundamentally what’s wrong in Islam. That you cannot – no candor.
Bat Ye’or: That you cannot criticize. So America is a great nation. It has a tremendous potentiality, it has given a lot to the world. And, of course, if America is going to follow the direction that Europe has taken —
Geller: And it seems to.
Bat Ye’or: Yes. Well, it will be very, very serious for our civilization, our principles, our values. And it will be a collapse of an enormous magnitude. But, I must say that now in Europe there is a movement of–I wouldn’t say a revolt, but a resistance movement against that. So there is some resistance. It doesn’t mean that it will succeed.
Bat Ye’or: Because it is very difficult to go against what has been done for so many decades, and also to organize a political body that will know how to deal with those problems that are very complex.
Bat Ye’or: On the level of a continent. Because it is not in one country, it is in the whole of Europe. So it is on the level of the continent. But this has to be done if Europe, what Europe represents and the West represents, want to survive. Otherwise it will not survive.
Geller: Will not survive. So, the first thing, you know, after 9/11, when I started this journey, because before 9/11 I was cognizant of really nothing, I came to see you at Columbia. Yeah. And I was so blown away by what your remarks had revealed, I had come up to you and I said, What do I do, or What should I do? And you said to me, First, learn everything. It was the best advice I ever got. And I guess that’s what people have to do. First they really must learn everything, and not go to the usual resources that they go to like the media, because the culture has been completely corrupted.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, it has been corrupted and subverted.
Bat Ye’or: By the Islamic version of history, which is not ours, our version.
Geller: But we’re accepting it.
Bat Ye’or: Yes, because our authority, our universities, are enforcing it.
Bat Ye’or: You see, in Islam you say the human rights, the declaration of Islam says that the search for knowledge is permitted as long as it is done according to Sharia. So, according to Sharia, it means you cannot criticize the Koran, you cannot criticize Islamic history, you cannot criticize anything, really, religious. It is a religious version of history. It is not compatible with our version of history, which is based on critique –
Geller: And analysis.
Bat Ye’or: And analysis and examination of facts.
Geller: Yeah. No, there’s no facts.
Bat Ye’or: No. No. If you have to say that everything is perfect in Islam, so you don’t really have to – then the historical demonstration must be according to this conclusion, that everything is perfect in Islam. So already you have the demonstration, the result.
Geller: Any idea when your book is going to be out?
Bat Ye’or: Well, it will be out in French in October.
Bat Ye’or: And in America, I am looking for — the translation is not finished yet, I have to work a little bit on it.
Geller: So hopefully you’ll come back and we’ll talk again when it’s out in English?
Bat Ye’or: I hope so.
Geller: You want it to be a best seller.
Bat Ye’or: Thank you.
Geller: Bat Ye’or, Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs. Thank you very much.
Bat Ye’or: Thank you very much. Thank you.