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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

The dangers of Muslim-Christian “interfaith dialogue”

Feb 6, 2014 5:22 pm By Robert Spencer

cardinaldolanb

This extraordinary article explains exactly why it is unwise and ultimately self-defeating for Catholic leaders (and Christian leaders in general) to engage in “interfaith dialogue” with Muslim leaders without knowing much of anything about Islam, or, for that matter, about the goals for the dialogue of their Muslim counterparts. The author, William Kilpatrick, author of Christianity, Islam and Atheism: The Struggle for The Soul of The West, includes a succinct summary of the smear campaigns by Reza Aslan’s Aslan Media that got me canceled from a couple of Catholic events last year by bishops who did not trouble to inform themselves of all the facts of the case, and did not deign to allow me to defend myself from the charges. Kilpatrick shows how these incidents were part of a larger pattern of naive accommodation on the part of Catholic leaders that is ultimately not just self-defeating, but suicidal.

“Has the Church in the U.S. Succumbed to the Charms of Islam?,” by William Kilpatrick in New Oxford Review, January 2014:

…New York’s Timothy Cardinal Dolan paid a visit last summer to the Albanian Islamic Cultural Center in Tompkinsville on Staten Island, where he met with a large group of Muslim leaders. As is often the case when Catholic prelates meet with Muslims, his theme was the common ground shared by the two faiths. Cardinal Dolan told his Islamic audience, “You love God, we love God, and he is the same God,” and he thanked them “for making me feel like a friend and a member of a family.” He went on to tell them how much they share in common with Catholics: “Your love of marriage and family, your love of children and babies, your love of freedom — religious freedom particularly — your defense of life, your desire for harmony and unity and your care for others, your care for God’s creation and your care for those who are in need.”

Perhaps this is true of the Muslims of Tompkinsville, but unfortunately the cardinal’s words will be taken as an endorsement of Islam in general. I say “unfortunately” because what he says about the common values and beliefs of Muslims and Catholics is highly misleading.

Two Fundamentally Distinct Faiths

Take the assertion that Muslims and Catholics love the same God. Of course, Cardinal Dolan’s statement can be justified in the broad sense: There is, after all, only one God. Whether prayer and worship are being offered to our Father in Heaven or to Allah or to the Great Spirit, there is only one God who is paying attention. But in that sense, anyone who offers up prayers is praying to the same God to whom Catholics pray.

Once we move from the general to the particular, the “same God” thesis begins to fall apart. In the New Testament, God presents Himself as a Trinity (Mt. 28:19); in the Koran, God explicitly denies being a Trinity (5:73). In the Gospels, God refers to Jesus as “my beloved Son” (Mt. 3:17); in the Koran, God curses Christians for calling Christ the Son of God (9:30). In the Christian account, God accepts His only Son’s sacrificial death on the cross; in the Muslim account, God declares reports of Christ’s crucifixion to be “a monstrous falsehood” (4:157). In light of these significant differences, it is difficult to see how the God of the Bible and the God of the Koran could be one and the same.

There are similar problems with Cardinal Dolan’s other assertions, such as, “Your love of marriage and the family.” Yes, Muslims can generally be counted on to love their families. But in many respects, the Catholic and Muslim views of marriage and family are worlds apart. To Catholics, marriage is a sacrament; to Muslims, it is a contract. Moreover, it is primarily a contract about sex and money. In fact, the Arabic language uses the same word, nikah, for both marriage and sexual intercourse. In Islam, marriage is an institution ordained to meet the sexual needs of men. Thus, a Muslim man can have two, three, or four wives at a time and as many different families. And four is not really an absolute limit because if a Muslim man gets tired of one of his wives, he need only say “I divorce you” three times and he is free to marry another. Although many Muslim men rise above their religion and stay faithful to one wife, the knowledge that one can be easily replaced creates an undercurrent of insecurity and instability that, in turn, leads to widespread family dysfunction in the Muslim world. In fact, a number of scholars contend that Islamic violence is in large part the result of Islamic family dynamics.

“Your love of children and babies.” Under Islamic law, women and children are little more than possessions of their husbands and fathers. Still, the bonds of natural affection often trump what Egyptian-born writer Nonie Darwish calls “the corrupting temptations” of Islam. Yet those religiously sanctioned temptations are ever present in the Muslim world. Take the matter of child marriage. Muhammad signed a marriage contract with Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine. And Muhammad is considered by Muslims to be the most perfect human being who ever lived! The Koran says ninety-one times that all Muslims are supposed to pattern their lives after Muhammad. Thus, when Islamic societies strive to return to their Muhammaden roots, there is a corresponding demand for a lowering of the legal age of marriage. For example, Iranian lawmakers are now seeking to lower the age of marriage for girls to nine. Mohammad Ali Isfenani, chairman of the Iranian Parliament’s Legal Affairs Committee, called the current minimum age of thirteen “un-Islamic.”

Then, of course, there is the matter of honor killings. An increasing number of Muslim fathers, grandfathers, uncles, and brothers feel so strongly about family honor that they are willing to murder any female relative who calls the family honor into question. Some commentators say this practice has nothing to do with Islam but is merely an unfortunate tribal custom. But the fact is that Muslims account for the vast majority of honor killings worldwide. This is because honor killings are protected under Islamic law. Perhaps the most authoritative guide to Islamic law is Reliance of the Traveler, a nine hundred-page manual that has been certified as reliable by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Section O, which deals with “retaliations” (punishments) for killing a human being, explains that some killings are not subject to retaliation. For example, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” In other words, parents or grandparents who kill their children or grandchildren should not be punished. And so, in many places in the Muslim world, the perpetrators of honor killings are not punished or else are let off with a light or suspended sentence.

“Your love of freedom — religious freedom particularly.” Religious freedom? But what about the freedom to change one’s religion? This would seem to be one of the most basic exercises of religious freedom. Yet there is near unanimity among Islamic scholars and jurists that male apostates from Islam should be killed. And the average Muslim in the street tends to agree. A 2010 Pew Forum survey of public opinion found that eighty-four percent of Egyptians agree that apostates should be killed. A Pew survey of Pakistanis revealed that seventy-eight percent favor death for those who leave Islam.

Freedom of religion would also seem to involve the freedom to criticize one’s religion. But, as is now becoming apparent, most Muslims worldwide have little or no freedom to criticize Islam due to its blasphemy laws. Moreover, unlike some other aspects of sharia law, blasphemy laws also apply to non-Muslims. Numerous Christians in Muslim lands have been jailed or killed for making an offhand remark about Muhammad or Islam. Nor does living in the West necessarily protect one from the reach of the blasphemy enforcers. Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was killed in the streets of Amsterdam for making a film critical of Islam. In Denmark, writer Lars Hedegaard was nearly killed by a would-be assassin for “insulting Islam.” Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard and his granddaughter were forced to take shelter in a safe room when an armed Muslim attempted to break into his house. Meanwhile, death fatwas have been issued against a Seattle cartoonist, a Los Angeles filmmaker, and a Florida pastor — all for violations of blasphemy laws.

It’s a good bet that Muslims in Tompkinsville don’t take the blasphemy laws as seriously as Muslims in Pakistan, but there are reasons to believe that not all American Muslims are as enthusiastic about religious liberty as Cardinal Dolan suggests. For example, a 2012 poll conducted by Wenzel Strategies found that fifty-eight percent of Muslim-American citizens believe that criticism of Islam or Muhammad should not be allowed under the U.S. Constitution. Forty-six percent said that Americans who criticize or parody Islam should face criminal charges, while one in eight respondents felt that such crimes merit the death penalty. Another forty-two percent said that Christians do not have the right to evangelize Muslims.

Pawns in the Great Chess Game

Cardinal Dolan realizes that the Catholic Church needs allies in the struggle to maintain religious liberty in the U.S., but it is doubtful that America’s imams will prove to be reliable allies. The “ecumenical jihad” approach — a strategy whereby Christians and Muslims are encouraged to join forces in a common struggle against secularism — might work with some issues and in some circumstances, but not with the issue of religious liberty. For a faithful Muslim, religious freedom largely means two things: freedom to practice sharia (thirty-two percent of those surveyed in the Wenzel poll believed that sharia should be the supreme law of the land in the U.S.) and freedom from criticism. Imams and Islamic activists undoubtedly realize that they are not the target of the Obama administration’s attack on religious freedom. In many different ways, the administration has shown a distinct bias against Catholics and in favor of Muslims. To the extent that Islamic leaders are interested in the issue of religious freedom, it is likely as leverage to silence the growing number of those who criticize Islam precisely for its suppression of freedom. An “alliance” with the Catholic hierarchy would, among other things, provide a degree of immunity from Catholic critics of Islam and, in fact, Muslim groups have already successfully prevailed upon members of the Catholic hierarchy to muzzle Catholics who speak out about the oppressive nature of Islam.

Islam’s representatives are willing to make alliances with Catholics, but not necessarily because they share the same values. Islamic leaders are just as likely to form alliances with secular leftists as with Catholic bishops. Again, this is not because they see eye-to-eye with the secular Left but because they see a political advantage. One of the major mistakes Christians make about Islam is to fail to understand its political nature. Unlike Christianity, subjugation of other religions and cultures is at its core. In this regard, it’s worth noting that the game of chess, which originated in India, was greatly improved upon once it reached Muslim lands. Strategy is an important concept in a warrior culture. Arguably, it is even more important to the twenty-first-century practitioners of stealth jihad — the process of spreading Islam by means of cultural rather than armed warfare. While bishops may regard their Muslim counterparts as “dialogue partners,” it is quite likely that not a few of their partners regard the bishops as pawns in the very serious game of Islamic expansion.

The most audacious recent move in this “great game” of strategy is the offer by Al-Azhar — Islam’s most important university — to renew relations with the Vatican. Relations were broken off when Pope Benedict XVI denounced the bombing of a church in Alexandria, Egypt. In an overture to Pope Francis, the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar said that relations could be resumed “if in one of his addresses he were to declare that Islam is a peaceful religion.” Quite clearly, the Grand Imam’s main interest in maintaining relations with the Vatican is to see how he can manipulate the Church in order to gain a strategic advantage. And he seems to have had some success. Pope Francis, in his first apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium, asserted that “authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.”

“Sabotaging Its Miserable House”

We could examine more of Cardinal Dolan’s assertions about Islamic values — “your defense of life, your desire for harmony and unity,” etc. — but it’s more important to consider his appearance at the mosque in the larger context of long-term Islamist strategy. The strategy is essentially the same as the one that Italian political theorist Antonio Gramsci recommended to communists in the 1930s — namely, the “long march through the institutions.” The Islamic version of the strategy was first outlined by Hasan al-Bana, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, and then developed by theorists such as Sayyid Qutb and Maulana Mawdudi. More recently, the strategy has been used to great effect by Prime Minister Recep Erdogan in gradually transforming secularist Turkey into an Islamist society. The strategy includes the West as well. A secret twenty-page document written in 1991 by a member of the Board of Directors of the Muslim Brotherhood in North America and later obtained by the FBI, sets forth the group’s mission as “a grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers.”

“From within…by their hands.” The author seems to have a good grasp of the Western penchant for cooperating in its own undoing. The long march through the institutions doesn’t need to take that much time when the institutions are throwing open the doors and putting out the welcome mat. One of the institutions that the Muslim Brotherhood aims to influence and manipulate is the Catholic Church. Representatives of Muslim Brotherhood-linked groups such as the Islamic Society of North America and the Islamic Circle of North America have already managed to get themselves appointed as the bishops’ main dialogue partners in the U.S. Moreover, numerous Catholic colleges seem also to have succumbed to the charms of Islam. Some of the Islamic studies courses served up to Catholic students and seminarians might as well have “Made in Saudi Arabia” stamped on the front. In addition, Catholic high schools can generally be counted on to present a whitewashed picture of Islam.

It is difficult to see what benefits these faith alliances bring to Catholics, but they provide a number of benefits to Muslims. The benefit of having Catholic schools and colleges act as apologists for Islam is obvious and is, by the way, a favor that is not reciprocated in Islamic schools. A less obvious but equally important benefit is that the kind of endorsement provided by Cardinal Dolan and other Catholic leaders lends legitimacy to Islam. It makes Islam look like a member in good standing of the club of world religions and tends to confirm the thesis that all the butchery done in the name of Islam is the work of “fanatics.” Moreover, these alliances also serve to neutralize Islam’s Catholic critics.

A Case Study

The case of Robert Spencer, who has been described by Fr. C.J. McCloskey as “perhaps the foremost Catholic expert on Islam in our country” (National Catholic Register, July 6, 2013), is illustrative. Spencer was invited to give a talk to a Catholic men’s group in Worcester, Massachusetts, last spring; however, under pressure from Muslims, Bishop Robert McManus of Worcester rescinded the invitation on the grounds that Spencer’s talk “would impact negatively on the Church’s increasingly constructive dialogue with Muslims.”

Last summer Spencer was scheduled to speak at a Catholic homeschool conference in Sacramento, California, sponsored by Kolbe Academy. For their pains, Kolbe Academy officials received a letter from Nathan Lean, editor-in-chief of Aslan Media, whose founder, Reza Aslan, is a Muslim critic of Christianity. The letter stated that the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League list Spencer as a “hate group leader” and that Spencer “regularly appears in public with members of the neo-Nazi street gang, the English Defence League….” Lean continued, “Why Kolbe Academy would knowingly host a man with these associations is unclear…. I have alerted several major civil rights organizations and watch groups about this and they have informed me that they are investigating the invitation…. Additionally, I have spoken with news media outlets both in the state of California and nationally…. They were unaware of this speaking engagement and many are interested in pursuing stories about it….”

In other words, “Nice little academy you have there. It would be a shame if something bad were to happen to it.” As Lean fully understands, it doesn’t matter that his portrayal of Spencer as a hater is false. What Catholic organization would want that kind of attention? As it turns out, Kolbe Academy stood firm. It was forced, however, to find a new location because, like the bishop of Worcester, Bishop Jaime Soto of Sacramento denied permission for Spencer to speak on Church property. Spencer’s foes didn’t fully succeed in blocking him this time around, but the fact that they should have so much influence over diocesan matters is disturbing.

They tried again later last summer when Spencer accepted an invitation to debate Shadid Lewis of the Muslim Debate Initiative in the U.S. The event was hosted by Ave Maria Radio and held at Eastern Michigan University, so Spencer’s stalkers couldn’t very well pressure Church authorities to cancel the event. Nevertheless, they did their best to persuade Bishop Earl Boyea of Lansing, who celebrated Mass after the debate symposium, to disassociate himself from the event. Victor Begg of the Michigan Muslim Community Council asked why the bishop would appear at the symposium “knowing these people have an Islamophobic, bigoted agenda.” Likewise, Dawood Zwink, the group’s executive director, questioned why the debate organizers would choose such an “incendiary” figure as Spencer.

The Michigan Muslims failed to capture their opponent’s bishop, but that is no reason to celebrate. Other bishops and Catholic groups will take note of the controversy and think twice before inviting critics of Islamic supremacism to speak. Consequently, we can expect to see a series of similar moves by Islamic activists in the future. Their goal is to marginalize their opponents by removing them from play one by one. When the Muslim Brotherhood memorandum speaks of sabotaging Western civilization “by their hands,” this is the kind of tactic to which they are referring. They want to silence Spencer and other critics of Islam, and they want Catholics to do the silencing for them.

Some Catholics seem all too happy to comply. For example, in an article for the National Catholic Reporter that appeared shortly before the debate at Eastern Michigan, Michael Sean Winters wrote that Spencer should be barred from Catholic forums because his “vile anti-Muslim pronouncements certainly approach the level of bigotry we associate with Holocaust denial” (Aug. 8, 2013). Winters neglected to quote any of these “vile” pronouncements, but apparently fairness and accuracy don’t matter when you’re dealing with someone whose views are “morally repugnant.” In the course of his diatribe, Winters cautioned Bishop Boyea that he would be “well-advised to follow the example of his brother bishops and say that the Catholic Church simply cannot be associated with this vile anti-Muslim bigotry.”…

There is more. Read it all.

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Comments

  1. jihad3tracker says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 5:32 pm

    William Kilpatrick’s research and energy, culminating in this very rare document, deserve our gratitude.

    I am going to email him with a personal “Thank you” — and perhaps other Jihadwatch readers can spare a few minutes to do the same.

    • wally says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 6:34 am

      Don’t give up on the catholic church. Catholics can educate themselves and then set up private meetings with their pastors, even bishops and express their concerns over the encroachnent of Islam. Use biblical passages to explain. CAIR and other groups can block one appearance of Robert Spencer but they cannot block 1000 catholics making private appointments to discuss the issue with their priests, bishops, cardinals.

      • dumbledoresarmy says

        Feb 8, 2014 at 12:47 am

        True dat.

        And the same applies to *every* other branch of the Church Universal.

        CAtholics have appeasers – and they also have the Robert Spencers.

        Anglicans have appeasers – and they also have Rev Dr Mark Durie.

        The reformed churches in Europe have appeasers and dhimmis – and they also have Dr Hans Jansen.

        And every single one of them has a slowly, steadily growing number of informed laity.

        For that matter, the same applies to *Jews* – some are appeasers and dhimmis, both within and outside of Israel, but plenty of others have woken up or are waking up. ( At least in their case, there are only 14 million Jews, half of them in Israel, so the waking up process should hit a ‘tipping point’ faster than in the case of the Christians, who number a couple of billion worldwide).

        And again, with Buddhists and Hindus: there are those who have got Islam’s number, and a great many who still haven’t, and are acting dhimmi.

        It just boils down to ‘each one teach one’.

    • Alex says

      Apr 23, 2014 at 8:52 pm

      Your argument basically says that Catholic leaders (and catholics/christians in general, presumably) should not get to know Muslims, because they don’t know Muslims (ie don’t know their motivations and aims, in participating in interfaith dialogue).
      That’s insane. Regardless of the motivation, the only proven way for hostile groups to become less hostile- benevolent, even- is to have something to do with one another, face to face, on neutral territory, and on as regular basis as possible. In short, to come to know one another.
      Maybe some guy conducted a smear campaign; I’m sure there’s a so called Catholic or three who’ve demonstrably done the same. In the last 5 seconds, probably. Christians of all stripes have been heard defending Christianity against accusations of corruption and past violence, with the idea that what people(or orgnisations) do, who call themselves Christian, has nothing to do with the true heart of the teachings of Christ, or with true Christianity. By the most simple, God given logic, this applies to Muslims also. You want to judge a religion, and the entirety of its adherents, by the worst acts committed, and worst doctrines propogated? Then you’re in deep s***, as a Catholic. You have some of the worst crimes against humanity on your slate. So which is it? Do unto others, by cutting them a break, by getting down off the high horse whose height is inversely proportional to the pit of your own sins as a church, by extending a hand- a tendril, even- in humanity and willingness to meet the reality, and not the assumption? Or not.
      I can’t imagine Christ would think this was rocket science. Why do you?
      (P.S. I am Christian. Just to clarify)

  2. mariam rove says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 5:38 pm

    Islam and other religions are like cotton and fire. They don’t go together.m

    • Alex says

      Apr 23, 2014 at 9:00 pm

      I actually find Christianity, as its mopst often currently practised and preached, to be the most “exclusive” religion, and historically at least, I would not be surprised if the Christian Church had persecuted more peoples and other religions than the other religions combined.
      Islam is actually a very peaceful belief system, and is peacefully practised by millions. The tenets are almost identical to thoise of Christianity.
      Are there some weird, violent sounding bits in the Q’uran that could be taken by a demented mind and turned into a call for violence? Sure.
      Have you read the Bible lately?
      P.S. I am Christian

  3. Wellington says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    Another test which I’m not sure will go through. Is it possible to go back to the old format? I wish it were.

    • Jan says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 9:09 am

      I totally agree, Wellington.

      I am simply posting comments using name and email; instead of comments immediately appearing, as they did under the old format, they now don’t appear for ages. ( I tried to access my old account, to no avail.)

      Also, there is no home page, and it’s not at all clear when one’s comment is in reply to somone else’s, as this is to yours.

      I appreciate it takes time to get used to a new system, and naturally there are bound to be glitches, but whatever the reasons for the new format, I like you, much preferred the old one !

      • PGuud says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 9:07 pm

        At the top-right corner of the page, there is a “reclaim your old account button.” Click on that and enter your information, and you should be set to post in real time.

        Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.

  4. Softly Bob says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 6:11 pm

    Never try and negotiate with Satan.

  5. Islam_Macht_Frei says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    This BS about “We all worship the same god” (Karen Armstrong is notorious for this blather) is NONSENSE.

    The Christian God made and offered wine to drink.
    The Muslim “god” forbids alcohol use.
    The Christian God is a Trinity.
    Muslims are adamant that that is “polytheism” and that their “god” has no children, father, or “partners.”
    There are other areas, but either one of the above two alone completely falsifies the ridiculous assertion.
    But they’ll keep saying it…..

    • Champ says

      Feb 6, 2014 at 6:39 pm

      True, Islam_Macht_Frei!

      allah is NOT the God of the Bible:

      http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

  6. Champ says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    The dangers of Muslim-Christian “interfaith dialogue”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    True; which includes the evil “Chrislam” movement …

    Excerpt from “Take Heed Ministries”:

    The menace of ‘CHRISLAM’

    Any notion that God’s people are at liberty to seek to fuse together genuine worship of Him with any form of pagan worship is utterly rejected and prohibited by God in His Word. As Joshua was nearing the end of his life he addressed the people of Israel and their elders and said to them “Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right or to the left. That ye come not among these nations that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them. But cleave unto the Lord your God, as ye have done unto this day” [Joshua 23:7-8]… “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity… And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve… If ye forsake the Lord and serve strange gods then he will turn and do you hurt… Now therefore put away said he the strange gods which are among you and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel” [Joshua 24: 1-23].

    http://www.takeheed.net/Take_Heed_2011/Current_Concerns/March_2011/The_menace_of_Chrislam.htm

  7. PINCHOS WOOLSTONE says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 8:38 pm

    There is a mission to Islamize the whole world, Europe is on the verge of becoming Euroarabia.
    Christianity is on the retreat in Europe except those sects which are Evangelical in APPROACH.
    The Catholic Hierarchy, under the new Pope should concentrate on modernizing itself as is occurring.
    Forget this false dialogue

  8. Salah says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 9:30 pm

    The Holy and the Sinner
    (Jesus and Muhammad according to the Qur’an and the Hadith)

    http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/05/saint-and-sinner.html

  9. Clare says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 10:09 pm

    To quote from the article:
    Michael Sean Winters wrote that Spencer should be barred from Catholic forums because his “vile anti-Muslim pronouncements certainly approach the level of bigotry we associate with Holocaust denial” and “well-advised to follow the example of his brother bishops and say that the Catholic Church simply cannot be associated with this vile anti-Muslim bigotry.”…

    It strikes me as astounding that these progressives are so similar, though my example is secular political. Three days ago, we patriots in Seattle received similar content as above from State Senator Adam Kline in response to our emails supporting the ‘American Law for American Courts’ bill. Here are parts of that email:

    ….But for SB 6118, that’s not really the purpose at all: the real purpose is to serve as a platform from which bigots may spew their hatred for Muslims or other religious or ethnic minorities……No doubt there are many supporters who do not know the real purpose of this bill is to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment. No doubt some of its proponents actually believe it’s needed. Perhaps you do. But the folks who are really the driving forces behind this bill are just plain bigots.
    As a member of a religious minority, whose grandparents were immigrants and whose relatives died at the hands of religious bigots, I have no sympathy for the people who originate and sponsor campaigns like this. I no longer have the patience it takes to pretend that they deserve to be treated with the same respect I accord to other constituents or political activists, whether or not I happen to agree with their positions. Bigots do not listen to counter-arguments, or use reason, or try to understand what the effects of their actions are on others. I feel no obligation to treat them with respect, and I urge you to do the same……Adam Kline

    • CogitoErgoSum says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 1:50 am

      “Bigots do not listen to counter-arguments, or use reason, or try to understand what the effects of their actions are on others. I feel no obligation to treat them with respect….”

      This Adam Kline sounds as if he has become that which he claims not to respect. He seems to think that disliking the teachings of Islam equates to hatred of all Muslims. If I say I dislike the government of North Korea, does this mean I therefore hate all North Koreans? No. I think his logic is faulty and he needs to re-consider his own prejudices and bigotry.
      As for the Catholic clergy not wanting to appear to be vile, anti-Muslim bigots, well….again, I say, why should being critical of certain teachings of the Quran equate to wanting to persecute all Muslims? How can anyone, whether Christian, Muslim or even an atheist say that the same God of Truth would both confirm and deny His true nature…..which is the result when a person compares the Bible and the Quran. Now it seems to me both books cannot be correct; one of them is not the truth. Catholics believe the Bible to be the truth…so why does the Catholic clergy seem so fearful of being critical of something they believe not to be true? Shouldn’t they be intent on pointing out the truth for everyone to hear and see……including Muslims? This perplexes me to no end. Some may laugh at me for believing in the devil but I will keep insisting that just as Satan tried to tempt Christ, he also tempted Muhammad…and with Muhammad found a willing follower. I think Satan still prowls the Earth and has found his way into the very halls of the Vatican.
      I hate to think this…so please, dear God, I hope You will somehow prove to me that I am wrong.

      • voegelinian says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 4:31 am

        “If I say I dislike the government of North Korea, does this mean I therefore hate all North Koreans? No. I think his logic is faulty and he needs to re-consider his own prejudices and bigotry.”

        This is analogy has flaws — one of the more important being that, in fact, there is a broader problem of Muslims which only one willfully blind to the mountain ranges of data from which reasonable inferences can be made, in addition to oceans of dots screaming to be connected, would deny. This still does not necessarily mean that “all Muslims are terrorists”, but it does call into question any attempts to draw or erect artificial boundaries between Extremist Muslims and some putative majority of Harmless Muslims.

        PC MCs, as dense as they are, and as blinkered as they are by the complex claptrap they have affixed over their peripheral vision, still can sense the logic implicit in any substantive criticism of Islam and of Muslims who enable Islam — for, indeed, even most PC MCs cannot completely suppress from all recesses of their minds the massive effects which all the data of Muslim words and deeds are exerting daily, weekly, yearly.

        • CogitoErgoSum says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 11:08 am

          Voegelinian, I thought it was a pretty good analogy, myself. Islam is a form of government when fully implemented and the people living under it can suffer dire consequences when they do not toe the line….same as in North Korea. Many of the people in North Korea do not actually like their form of government but fear for their life in criticizing it…..same as in Islam. Should I blame or hate the people of North Korea for living under and tolerating a form of government that is cruel and oppressive?…..most of them by now were born into that way of life and many are not even aware that another way of life may exist. I still think this is similar to Islam. But I will try to wrap my brain around what you are saying and give it some thought. Peace.

      • James Foard says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 12:38 pm

        Good point.
        Let me add, so muslims love their children and babies. Rattlesnakes do too. Also, mafia enforcers are often very good family men who love their children and babies, aka “Growing up Gotti”. Let’s let all of the mafia gangsters out of prison, after all, they all love their children and babies.
        Regarding the “we all worship the same God” mantra. God is a generic term these days, it’s a one size fits all term for the religiously challenged.
        How we define God really determines what God we worship. Let’s say to guys meet on the street and are talking, and one of them says, “Well, I have to go and meet my friend Rich now, nice to meet you”, and the other guy says, “Oh, I know Rich also, tell him hi from Ralph, and ask him how his wife Florence is doing,” while all the while talking about two completely different persons. But, hey, his name is Rich, isn’t it?
        This is the idiocy of the Catholic church spokesmen or any spokesman saying “We all worship the same God.”
        Or when detectives tail the wrong murder suspect, because he has the same name as the perpetrator.
        Well, guess what Gomer, no, we don’t all worship the same ‘god’.
        Just because you call your mom “Mom” and I call my mom “Mom” doesn’t mean were talking about the same person.
        So we have these people throwing the word “God” around like a chef slinging hash on a grill. Well, my God is holy, and He is the God and father of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and Jesus said “Let not your hearts be troubled; You believe in God, believe also in Me.
        Muslims do not worship the same God, and those Catholic clerics who have repeated this junk are as guilty as Judas with thirty pieces of silver in his hand. I’m done.

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 10:48 pm

          James Foard wrote:

          Let me add, so muslims love their children and babies.. Also, mafia enforcers are often very good family men who love their children and babies, aka “Growing up Gotti”…
          ………………………..

          I see the point you are trying to make here, James—that even though Muslims love their children and are good family men, that they nonetheless present a danger, just like the Mafia.

          But I would ask you to do some more research.

          Most of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence say that female genital mutilation is obligatory. Huge numbers of young Muslim girls are mutilated every year, many suffering life-long health problems.

          Child marriage is very common in Islam—in many places like Yemen it is actually the norm. Children are sold into marriage to old men to pay off debts in places like Afghanistan.

          Pedophilia is a normative part of Islam, on the model of the “Prophet’s” rape of little Aisha when she was just nine-years-old.

          If a girl dares to balk at a forced marriage, she may well be killed.

          Once she’s married off, wife beating and marital rape are acceptable. Polygamy is allowed in Islam, as is sex slavery. So is summary divorce, the “Triple Talaq”, if the man tires of one of his wives.

          He may also “Honor Kill” his wives and children, especially his daughters.

          James, does *any* of this sound like the actions of “good family men” who “love their children”?

          There are individual Muslims, no doubt, who do love their families and children—but when this happens, it is *despite* Islam, not because of it.

      • Defcon 4 says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm

        There is no hand-wringing in islamic states about whether or not you should be allowed to criticise either islam or its holey prophet. Similarly, there’s no debate in the islamic world about your place as an untermenschen in it. It’s dogma, it’s been dogma for a thousand years.

  10. John says

    Feb 6, 2014 at 10:50 pm

    “There are none so blind as those that refuse to see”

  11. No1 says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 1:21 am

    I wish we lived in a world where people were incredulous enough to at least ask for just one single instance of bigotry from Robert Spencer before keytoeing to the demands of Islamic fascists. It’s like Orwell said, in a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

  12. livingengine says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 2:11 am

    This subject of Interfaith Dialogue has captured my attention after watching this interview with Interfaith practitioner Akbar Ahmed.

    In the interview Prof. Ahmed consistently side steps the challenges brought by Robert Spencer concerning Islam, and the Quran, to instead talk about the poet Rumi. One really has to see this to believe it.
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/08/akbar-ahmed-and-me

    From there I watched Akbar Ahmed’s movie “Journey into America” which could be called “Journey into the Muslim Brotherhood in America”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk4BrQLruzU

    I have provided a partial annotation of this extraordinarily, hostile, and covetous video as further example of how professional Muslim interfaithers can smile, and smile ,and be a villain still.

    9: 09 MAS mosque

    “The Muslim American Society (MAS) is a nonprofit organization founded in 1993 that describes itself as an Islamic revival and reform movement.

    It was created after a debate among Muslim Brotherhood members in the U.S. about whether to remain underground or to have a public face. Both Mohammed Mahdi Akef, now the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide, and Ahmed Elkadi, leader of the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood, were pivotal in the founding of the MAS in America.
    MAS has instructed its members to evade questions about the group’s ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and to define jihad as a “divine legal right” of Muslims to be used for defense and the spread of Islam.
    MAS leaders have said that these views are not now held by MAS leaders.”

    09:24 Gender inequality is “cultural”

    11:35 Muslims appropriating America

    12:16 W D Muhammad
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl0qp7w_JWw

    13:20 Luqman Ameen Abdullah is interviewed

    “Mr. Abdullah was imam of the Masjid Al-Haqq mosque and was connected to a group known as “Ummah,” a brotherhood that seeks to establish a separate state within the U.S. that would be ruled by strict Islamic or Sharia law, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

    Ummah’s leader is Jamil Abdullah al-Amin, formerly known as H. Rap Brown, who is now serving time in a prison for the murder of two police officers in Georgia. He was a prominent Black Panther during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

    Mr. Abdullah had become a person of interest to the FBI several years ago, partly for espousing the use of violence against law enforcement. He has trained members of his group in the use of firearms and martial arts in anticipation of some type of action against the government, the U.S. attorney’s office said.”
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB125677249132814537

    14:09 Farrakhan shown positively

    15:09 Message to the American people “Koran doesn’t say Jews are monkeys”

    18:45 Habeeb Quadri
    “Under the leadership of Quadri, the MCC Full Time School was the first Islamic school to participate in the internationally renowned Interfaith Youth Core (IFYC). Quadri has also worked with the local public school district to make accommodations for Muslim students in regards to prayer, swimming, and having Eid recognized by the whole district (more than 5,000 students). He is also involved in an initiative to have Arabic offered as a foreign language in high schools. ”
    – See more at: http://www.cairchicago.org/2011-speaker-bios/#sthash.vDSDsq4i.dpuf

    “”You know, we talk about the wars that are happening,” she said. “Our students might say, ‘Why are we still fighting in Iraq, or why are we still fighting in Afghanistan?’ And that opens up the entire context of 9/11, then we do go into it.”
    And for the most part, that’s how the MCC handles 9/11. It comes up in impromptu discussions in social studies class. Since 9/11 this Islamic school has also started explicitly teaching that extremism is wrong in religion classes.
    But at least one parent thinks the school should do more. That’s Khawaja Rizwan Kadir.”
    http://www.wbez.org/content/%E2%80%98who%E2%80%99s-osama-bin-laden%E2%80%99-teaching-911-muslim-youth

    21:54 Munir Akhtar Chaudry a fund raiser for Sen. Obama, and Clinton, but very little on the web about him.

    “The Mother Mosque” and MPAC
    http://www.mpac.org/programs/anti-terrorism-campaign/mother-mosque-of-america-endorses-mpacs-anti-terrorism-campaign.php#.Ut3C8bTTlqN

    MPAC and Waj
    @ 7:00 GZ Mosque
    @ 8:00 national security is threatened by criticizing Muslims
    @ 9:00 criticism of Islam is astroturffed
    @ 11:00 tu quoque
    @12:00 Breivik

    http://www.straighttalkpodcast.com/episodes/ST010-Wajahat-Ali.mp3

    MPAC and Qadhi
    @ 5:40 conflict between America, and Umma
    @ 16:47 support for MB’s in Egypt
    @20:55 compare Qahdi’s advise as per the Salifis to the Islamophobes

    http://www.straighttalkpodcast.com/episodes/ST011-Yasser-Al-Qadi.mp3

    MPAC and Esposito
    http://www.straighttalkpodcast.com/reform-relevance-and-future-of-islam/

    @ 30:00 Chomsky

    @31:16 Hamza Yusef

    @ 36:20 Pilgrims, and Plymouth Rock

    @ 39:53 and 44:33 911 and American zenophobia

    @43:00 “Obsession” the movie

    @57:40 Sheriff Baca and Hamas

    @58:20 Muzammil Siddiqi

    @59:00 CAIR is mentioned

    @1:06:00 Muslims and Bourbon Street

    @1:16:00 It hurts to be White

    @1:25:00 Keith Ellison is a great American

    @1:27:00 Lecturing America

    @1:30:40 Credits and closing

  13. Christian A. Beltram says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 2:53 am

    Interfaith dialog between Muslims and non-Muslims is a falsehood because the proponents of Islam only want their religion to be given respect. They are taking advantage of the ignorance of non-Muslims and the desire of these same non-Muslims to be fair and tolerant to others in order to brainwash some of them into converting to Islam and to lable any non-Muslims who criticize Islam bigoted and intolerant. In reality, the only intolerant people in this so-called interfaith dialog are the proponents of Islam. Those proponents of Islam who may not act intolerant are putting on a front in order to make uninformed people believe that Islam is a peaceful religion in order to convert them to the religion.

    I hope the world wakes up to both the aggressive and subtle ways in which Islam is growing in the world. Only when good people around the world and the leaders of the world’s nations wake up to the Islamic threat and do whatever it takes to stop it, will the survival of human civilization be assured.

    • bernie says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 9:31 am

      The Catholic Church needs to get rid of its hypocritical and harmful doctrine of manditory celibacy for priests, and deal more effectively with the child sexual abuse scandal (indeedd, there is some overlap between the 2 issues), before they are able to criticize Islam or other faiths.

      • James Foard says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 11:56 am

        I don’t see how getting rid of mandatory celibacy would end child abuse in the Catholic church, since most of the priests doing the abuse were and are homosexual, i.e. no, their not all going to go out and get married and have happy families if we end priestly celibacy. The problem, at least 98% of it, was homosexual predators violating young boys, not young girls.
        So, you solution is ridiculous; it is not a problem that involves healthy heterosexual men, but homosexuals who infiltrated the church during the last century.

        • thomas_h says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 1:10 pm

          “The Catholic Church needs to get rid of its hypocritical and harmful doctrine of manditory celibacy for priests…”

          What is hypocritical about the “doctrine” and who is harmed by it? Besides, the Church doesn’t force anyone to be a priest. If you don’t like celibate – don’t become a priest.

        • bernie says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 9:13 pm

          Most homosexual men are only sexually attracted to other adult men, while pedophiles (regardless of their sexual attraction, or lack thereof, to adults) tend to be attracted to children of both genders. For example, think of some (though of course not all) Afghan Muslims who think it’s acceptable to keep young, beardless boys as catamites, but it’s a capital crime if two consenting adult males have sex with each other.

          Catholic priests are told that they must be both unmarried and totally non-sexual. Self-report studies suggest that many (perhaps up to 75%) Catholic priests have homo- or heterosexuals liaisons with other adults, which makes many of the priests feel like hypocrites.

          Then, you have other priests who are trying to keep the extremely difficult, if not impossible celibacy rule, who are often around young kids (ie. students, youth groups, altar boys, etc.).

          This is not to say that there are not straight, married men (including some pastors) who are not pedophiles; however, it would appear that the past (and even current) Catholic priesthood system often lends itself to this terrible problem.

        • bernie says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 9:22 pm

          I meant to say, “This is not to say that there aren’t some heterosexual, married men (including some pastors) who are also pedophiles….”

          No, it wouldn’t eliminate the problem entirely, if the priests were allowed to get married. However, it would greatly reduce the problem, I believe.

      • Defcon 4 says

        Feb 7, 2014 at 2:10 pm

        I don’t think Yeshua ever advocated for celibacy and wouldn’t the concept of “be fruitful and multiply” refute it? Of course undoing hundreds of years of entrenched dogma might be tough, much less more than a thousand.

        • thomas_h says

          Feb 7, 2014 at 6:09 pm

          “I don’t think Yeshua ever advocated for celibacy and wouldn’t the concept of “be fruitful and multiply” refute it? Of course undoing hundreds of years of entrenched dogma might be tough, much less more than a thousand.”

          The “be fruitful and multiply” would only collide with practice of celibacy if both were command and directed to the same audience.
          But the former is not commandment, but blessing. Had it been a commandment, celibacy would be a sin. Celibacy is a condition the Church requires of its priests, but certainly not of its flock. On the contrary. The Church doesn’t preach celibacy – it encourages the (married) Catholics to have many children.
          Not so long ago Catholic countries for example, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Poland had both strong Catholic church and lots and lots of children. Catholic clergy celibacy did not stay on the way of demography. Today, the birth number in these countries is below replacement rate and hardly anyone is celibate.

  14. Dr. Gonzalo de Porras says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 6:23 am

    Desde S.S. el Papa Francisco, todo el Colegio Cardenalicio, la inmensa mayoría de obispos y el resto de la jeraquía católica, hasta el mas humilde monaguillo están demostrando que no tienen idea del contenido del “Corán”, ni los terribles principios del Islam y sus seguidores, cuyo objetivo final es disimular sus perversas intenciones hasta que su número sea suficiente para imponer la Shaari’ah en Europa y en el mundo.

  15. Theo Prinse says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 10:37 am

    Nostra Aetate (Latin: In our Age) is the Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions of the Second Vatican Council. Passed by a vote of 2,221 to 88 of the assembled bishops, this declaration was promulgated on October 28, 1965, by Pope Paul VI.

    Summary of the final text of Nostra Aetate[edit]

    Introduction
    Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions
    Muslims
    Jews

    The Declaration begins by describing the unity of the origin of all people, and the fact that they all return to God; hence their final goal is also one. It describes the eternal questions which have dogged men since the beginning, and how the various religious traditions have tried to answer them.

    It mentions some of the answers that some Hindus, Buddhists, and members of other faiths have suggested for such philosophical questions. It notes the willingness of the Catholic Church to accept some truths present in other religions in so much as they reflect Catholic teaching and may lead souls to the Christ.

    Part three goes on to say that the Catholic Church regards the Muslims with esteem, and then continues by describing some of the things Islam has in common with Christianity and Catholicism: worship of One God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, Merciful and Omnipotent, Who has spoken to men; the Muslims’ respect for Abraham and Mary, and the great respect they have for Jesus, whom they consider to be a Prophet and not God. The synod urged all Catholics and Muslims to forget the hostilities and differences of the past and to work together for mutual understanding and benefit.
    Part four speaks of the bond that ties the people of the ‘New Covenant’ (Christians) to Abraham’s stock (Jews). It states that even though some Jewish authorities and those who followed them called for Jesus’ death, the blame for this cannot be laid at the door of all those Jews present at that time, nor can the Jews in our time be held as guilty, thus repudiating an indiscriminate charge of Jewish deicide; ‘the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God’. The Declaration also decries all displays of antisemitism made at any time by anyone.

  16. James Foard says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 11:44 am

    In light of Islam’s history, and the present dhimmi status of non muslims in Islamic countries, asking christians to engage in interfaith dialogue with muslims is akin to asking a woman to engage in polite conversation with her rapist, while he is raping her.

  17. Gba says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    As we become aware of the insidious nature of Islam, it appears we are doomed. Stealth, taqiyya and determination are powerful weapons.

    BUT, RIGHT STILL TRIUMPHS OVER MIGHT!! Americans still love to read so we continue to need books, newspaper articles, magazine articles, e-mails as well as billboards and speeches by people like Robert Spencer, William Kilpatrick, David Horowitz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali , Brigitte Gabriel and many others. Knowledge is power.

  18. Cindy Mccoy says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    I do not know what God that Catholic priest is following but it is not the one I follow if he thinks his god and allah are the same. I follow and worship Jesus Christ and He and allah are not the same. I’m afraid that man is sadly mistaken!!!!

    • Champ says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 4:36 pm

      Brava, Cindy! ✞

  19. thomas_h says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 6:12 pm

    I am trying to post a comment, but it doesn’t show up. Anybody else experiences that difficulty?

    • thomas_h says

      Feb 7, 2014 at 6:27 pm

      OOps! Everything seems to be allright again.

  20. Artie Galvin says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 8:06 pm

    Who really cares what muslims believe. It is the supremacist aspect of this so called “religion” that is in question.

  21. gravenimage says

    Feb 7, 2014 at 10:31 pm

    The dangers of Muslim-Christian “interfaith dialogue”
    ………………………..

    This grotesque moral equivalence *is* dangerous—especially since so many Christians believe that daring to mention the horrors of Islam—like the genocide of Christians in Dar-al-Islam—would harm this sort of “interfaith dialogue”.

    There is rarely any indication of what this charade is supposed to accomplish.

    What it *actually* accomplishes, of course, is for Jews and Christians in the West to help whitewash Islam and to be complicit in the oppression and murder of their fellows. *Ugh*.

    More:

    Cardinal Dolan told his Islamic audience, “You love God, we love God, and he is the same God,”…He went on to tell them how much they share in common with Catholics: “Your love of marriage and family, your love of children and babies, your love of freedom — religious freedom particularly — your defense of life, your desire for harmony and unity and your care for others, your care for God’s creation and your care for those who are in need.”
    ………………………..

    *Insanity*. Most of those who run and fund charities in Dar-al-Islam are Infidels—especially Christians. And does Dolan include forced marriages, wife beating, and “Honor Killing” in the Muslim love for family and children? He should.

    As for praying to the “same God”, does he have any idea what Islamic prayers entail, such as cursing Jews and Christians and calling for the slaughter of “Unbelievers”?

    As for religious freedom, non-Muslims are systematically oppressed and brutalized under Islam.

    How much willful ignorance does it take to make the assertions that Dolan does here?

    What fools these dhimmis be!

  22. dumbledoresarmy says

    Feb 8, 2014 at 1:02 am

    Do we have any New York Catholics here present, posting or lurking?

    It would be appropriate for you, I think, to write to your Cardinal, or even, depending on your role in the church and your degree of access, confront him personally, and – lovingly, respectfully, but also very, very firmly – *rebuke* him and question him. You could use Mr Spencer’s comments and those by Gravenimage, in her posting above, as a source of ideas. Don’t try to cover everything: perhaps take just one or two of his most glaring errors, and correct them.

    You might also commend to him Dr Mark Durie’s book “The Third Choice: Islam, Dhimmitude and Freedom”.

    If he is *told* where he is going wrong, there is at least the tiniest chance he might turn around; and if you have warned him, then even if he persists in his folly, *your* conscience is clear.

    And in the meantime: how does your *parish priest* measure up on Islamoawareness? Your bishop? And are you doing anything to educate *them*?

    I think that this time around, the resistance to Jihad is not going to come from the top down; it has got to come, building steadily, from the ground up.

    • PGuud says

      Feb 8, 2014 at 2:37 am

      I’ll second that.

      Well done!

      Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.

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