“A detective showed Williams a photo of Wallace and referred to the victim as a Muslim woman. Williams then said: ‘Muslim woman? If she was a Muslim woman none of this (expletive) would even exist.'” If only she had been more properly Islamic, she might be alive today. Yet this case is unlikely to spur any public discussion of Islamic honor killing, or of why Muslims commit 91 percent of honor killings worldwide. Such a discussion would be “Islamophobic.”
“Albany man gets 25 years to life for killing his wife and stern lecture from the judge,” by Mike Goodwin for the Albany Times-Union, March 7 (thanks to Halal Pork Shop):
Robert Williams said he was sorry for killing his wife, Sharene Wallace.
But Williams received stern words from the sentencing judge on Friday for slaughtering her and then trying to strip her of “all dignity” by hiding her body in a closet.
Visiting County Judge Andrew Ceresia ordered the 41-year-old city man to serve 25 years to life in prison for the May killing.
“Every day, I have to live with regret and remorse,” Williams said, speaking in low tones. “I am way beyond remorseful.”
Ceresia acknowledged Williams’ remorse and the fact that he did not deny killing Wallace, but called the crime reprehensible.
“You attempted to strip all dignity from this woman by stuffing her in a closet,” the judge said.
Wallace, 37, known as Sakina, was stabbed more than 30 times in the neck inside 279 Sherman St. sometime between May 26 and May 29. Williams, who fled to New York City in an attempt to avoid arrest, admitted the killing to friends and spoke at length with Albany police.
The jury needed just over an hour to convict him of second-degree murder on Jan. 17.
Wallace’s aunt, Gladys Brangman, spoke on behalf of her family, asking the judge to impose the maximum sentence.
“We are all angry, hurt, frustrated and sickened,” she said.
Brangman said Wallace’s sisters and children are trying to learn how to live without her.
“None of our lives will ever be the same,” she said.
Chief Assistant District Attorney David Rossi requested that Williams receive the maximum sentence. “There is no justification for what happened,” he said.
Williams’ attorney, Michael Jurena, asked for leniency, noting that Williams, a convicted sex offender, did not deny killing Wallace.
During the trial, Rossi told jurors that Williams believed Wallace was cheating on him, but killed her because he objected to her behavior in their Muslim community.
He played for the jury part of Williams’ videotaped interview with police. A detective showed Williams a photo of Wallace and referred to the victim as a Muslim woman. Williams then said: “Muslim woman? If she was a Muslim woman none of this (expletive) would even exist.”Jurena argued Williams killed his wife because of an “extreme emotional disturbance,” which is a defense in New York state against a murder charge, giving a jury the option to consider manslaughter.
Jurena conceded Williams killed Wallace, but said Wallace went at his client with knives and that his client was drunk at the time.
Bad Mo Foe says
“…his client was drunk at the time.”
So, that makes him a not-so-good Muslim, doesn’t it?
mariam rove says
exactly.m
khalafani siddiq says
muslims are prohibited to drink alcohol and that is real talk , this is propaganda and lies because a American born muslim would not kill his wife unless she was being unfaithful or in self defense . no muslim is to kill another human being . but Christians can kill , steal and be gay all in the name of god . so you Christians or jews that run this site will never have peace or tolerance for their ways .
Peter Buckley says
“…no muslim is to kill another human being…”
Can you please quote where the Quran says this.. I look forward to your response……
Mr. Dude says
khalafani siddiq, what if, just humor me here, what if, just say, that it was shown to you that Mohammad himself had innocent people killed or approved of them being killed, would you condemn Mohammad as being immoral in that one instance?
I would, and I’m sure Champ, and PJ, and Angemon would as well. Surely you could answer “yes” to my query, correct?
If NOT, then your argument that a Muslim would not do such an act falls on deaf ears.
exsgtbrown says
no muslim is to kill another human being
bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
exsgtbrown says
The Myth:
Muhammad Would Never Approve of Murder
The Truth:
“Kill any Jew that falls into your power!”
This was the command that Muhammad gave to his people following the murder of another Jew named Ka’b al-Ashraf. From the nighttime assassination of Asma bint Marwan (a poet and mother of five) to the Christians killed at Tabuk, this is but one of many examples from the Sira that refute the silly idea that the prophet of Islam never approved of murder.
Following the gory assassination of al-Ashraf, Muhammad wished to assert his dominance in Medina by instilling terror into the hearts of the local Jewish population. Many of the locals were having second thoughts about allowing the Muslim immigrants into their community, which seemed particularly unwise in retrospect given that Muhammad had already begun killing and evicting the original residents only eighteen months after arriving.
Muhammad’s solution was to intimidate the local populace, particularly the two surviving Jewish tribes (the Nadir and Qurayza). Gleeful over the successful assassination of the Nadir leader, al-Ashraf, the prophet of Islam immediately exhorted his men to a random murder spree that would further narrow down the opposition through terror and conversion.
Following Muhammad’s mandate to kill “any Jew that falls into your power,” a Muslim follower stabbed his Jewish business partner to death. The Muslim’s brother was initially horrified by the crime, since they were not only on friendly terms with the victim, but the merchant was integral to their own livelihood:
The apostle said, “Kill any Jew that falls into your power.” Thereupon Muhayyisa leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time, though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed [the Jew] Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, “You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?” Muhayyisa answered, “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.” This was the beginning of Huwayyisa’s acceptance of Islam… [Huwayyisa] replied exclaimed, “By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!” and he became a Muslim. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 554)
The unbelieving brother is quite impressed with Islam’s ability to influence a man even to kill his own family on Muhammad’s order. As such, he accepts the “Religion of Peace” on the spot (assuming his conversion was not out of self-preservation).
Another example of Muhammad clearly approving of murder occurred following a botched attempt to assassinate an arch rival in Mecca. Muhammad’s hand-picked assassins were discovered before they could carry out their mission and had to hide in a cave. An innocent man grazing his horse soon came their way:
While we were in the cave, up came Thuman bin Malik bin Ubaydullah al-Taymi cutting grass for a horse of his. He kept coming nearer until he was at the very entrance of the cave… I went out and stabbed him under the breast with the dagger. He shrieked so loud that the Meccans heard him. (al-Tabari 1439)
After this, the killers later found themselves in another cave, into which a one-eyed shepherd haplessly entered while taking a break:
When he asked who I was I told him that I was one of the [Muslims]. Then he laid down beside me and lifting up his voice began to sing: “I won’t be a Muslim as long as I live, nor heed to their religion give.”
I said (to myself) ‘you will soon know’ and as soon as the badu was asleep and snoring I got up and killed him in a more horrible way than any man has been killed. I put the end of my bow in his sound eye, then I bore down on it until I it out at the back of his neck. (al-Tabari 1440)
Amazingly, the murder spree was not yet finished. The Muslims killed a third Meccan on the way back and took another prisoner. Muhammad was told about the various murders, including that of the sleeping shepherd whose only “crime” was to say that he would never be Muslim. He reaction:
{Muhammad] laughed so that one could see his back teeth. He asked me the news and when I told him what had happened, he blessed me. (Tabari 1441)
There are many other examples in which Muhammad ordered or approved of the killing of non-Muslims who simply weren’t guilty of capital crimes, even according to the devout Muslim historians who recorded the events. Since murder is defined in Islam as a person killing another member of their own class (see the Law of Equality, Qur’an 2:178), becoming a Muslim was the only way to ensure that one wasn’t murdered by Muhammad’s men at the time.
Islamisdeath says
Actually khalafani siddiq Chritians are against all of those things that’s why your darling imam Obama and the left are trying to destroy Chritianity. Your an idiot and you know nothing of Chritianity.
voegelinian says
“a American born muslim would not kill his wife unless she was being unfaithful ”
Killing your wife because she is being unfaithful is a capital crime in the free world. Much of Sharia is literally criminal — it breaks the laws of the free, sane world.
guy macher says
You are a liar! You are also a good Muslim because you acted as Mohamed would have acted.
Champ says
Wow the nut-jobs are coming out of the woodwork! …whether mohammedan nut-jobs or moral equivalency nut-jobs 😀
gravenimage says
khalafani siddiq wrote:
muslims are prohibited to drink alcohol and that is real talk , this is propaganda and lies because a American born muslim would not kill his wife unless she was being unfaithful or in self defense . no muslim is to kill another human being…
…………………………..
Note that even in this load of Taqiyya that this vile Mohammedan considers it perfectly Islamic for a pious Muslim to murder a woman if he suspects she has been unfaithful. *Ugh*.
Steffen Larsen says
“this is propaganda and lies because a American born muslim would not kill his wife unless she was being unfaithful ”
Ah well, it is OK then.
vanzorge says
“no muslim can kill his wife”……….LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
you are a very special kind of stupid
dan says
dan
Come on now! My muslim friends smoke and drink. She needs 4 witnesses if she was raped, I recall. Well Canadian born muslims kill their wivesl. The koran says to kill them if they depart the way of islam. May be you forgot. The penalty for imagined or real apostasy is death. Are you saying the Quran is lying? Most likely YOU are lying. I read the Qur’an. How about you? أنت تكذب!
Ralph says
Well; since you are a Muslim and worship a Thief, Rapist, Murder and pedophile and you claim that Christians are bad… You stubborn Wild Donkeys are always killing each other and now you want to kill everyone else that does not believe in your CULT. The moon god allah and his false prophet Muhammad.
cindy mccoy says
different rules for men in that culture.
Defcon 4 says
Maybe his healthy camel urine accidentally fermented while in storage.
eib says
Quote:
Wallace, 37, known as Sakina, was stabbed more than 30 times in the neck inside 279 Sherman St. sometime between May 26 and May 29. Williams, who fled to New York City in an attempt to avoid arrest, admitted the killing to friends and spoke at length with Albany police.
end
Coward!
Black or white, he’s nothing.
And Islam debased him. And so he had to debase her.
Diane Harvey says
“. . . and that his client was drunk at the time.”
Muslims will do anything, even admitting whether true or not to behavior that might excuse their behavior.
This guy complains that his wife wasn’t Muslim enough, yet offers in this defense that he himself had been drinking alcohol which in many Muslim circles is enough to have the not-Muslim-enough charge thrown at you.
Salah says
“Williams’ attorney, Michael Jurena, asked for leniency, noting that Williams, a convicted sex offender, did not deny killing Wallace.”
One might wonder, did he have sex with her after she died?
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/03/necrophilia-in-islam-necrophilie-en.html
mortimer says
HONOR KILLING and the media want to avoid controversy by not calling it what it is HONOR KILLING.
The media are letting us down by not giving us the truth. We the public cannot tell the elected representatives what we want them to do.
Supremacism, misogyny and honor killing? Normative Islam.
mortimer says
A blind man had a slave-mother [his wife, the mother of his children] who used to abuse the Prophet (pbuh) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (pbuh) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. Abu Dawud 38:4348.
Muhammad was told about the gruesome murder the next day and offered his approval. The woman may have been a care-giver to the blind, but she had personally insulted him and therefore deserved to die.
This shows that killing a kafir wife is not considered a crime in Islam.
thomas_h says
“Muhammad was told about the gruesome murder the next day and offered his approval.”
Horrible, evil, mad and perfectly Islamic. Charlie Manson and his followers come to mind.
Mr. Dude says
If 7 million people insulted Mohammad, and he had the ability to kill them all like he killed 600-900 at Banu Q., or like he had Abu Afak killed, would Mohammad likely have killed all 7 million (if they all insulted him)? I’m thinking, well, YES. If so, then HITLER comes to mind (actually 1 million people worse), and not “just” Charles Manson. Manson was a lightweight compared to Mohammad, potentially.
khalafani siddiq says
that is the same way the so called American Christian is , racist , inferior and misogyny as well . the American white Christian enslaved millions of blacks and is that fair to them ? so it is cool to discriminate against another religion ? what is this jim crow for muslims in America ?
ecosse1314 says
For muslim to complain about slavery whether by race or colour is just so fuuny. The greatest slave masters the world have ever known.
Mr. Dude says
You make a very good point.
Mr. Dude says
Correct, my friend.
The Bible gives full approval to slavery and even to beating slaves (Jesus never objected), so the South used the Bible to further the biggest crime against humanity and also the bloodiest war (for Americans) in their history:
“Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, … nor his manservant, nor his maidservant.” In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it.”
http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp
But, since ISLAM is also an Abrahamic faith, and Abraham was a slave holder (he also raped a slave of his – marriage to a slave is rape) Islam has to feel shame from it’s texts, not just Christians/Jews, to be fair. Correct?
eib says
Quote:
The Bible gives full approval to slavery and even to beating slaves (Jesus never objected),
end
You are assuming that because Jesus never objected that the Bible and its God fully approve of slavery.
I don’t think so.
I also don’t think that most Southern whites in 1850, 2/3rds who didn’t own slaves, wholeheartedly approved of slavery.
Andrew Johnson, Lincoln’s vice-president, was a Southerner from East Tennessee, where there was much antislavery feeling. In the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, there was also much antislavery feeling also.
The idea that silence is approval and even enthusiasm is wrong.
Approval is approval. It’s spoken out loud, it is asserted.
Disapproval is harder to voice, even where you know it’s right.
duh_swami says
My direct ancestors were farmers who moved into southern Miss, in Covington and Smith counties from the 1840’s forward. They owned no slaves. My gg grandfather and three of his brothers all fought on the Confederate side, but not because they supported slavery. Why would they do that? Two of them, my gg uncles, were captured by the enemy and hung for resisting with arms. They did not go to the Civil War, it came to them, and the Bib;e had nothing to do with it.
voegelinian says
The hamfisted, historically illiterate Mr. Dude is evidently blissfully oblivious to the facts that
1) the modern West is the first culture in all world history to abolish slavery
2) and this eventually successful abolition movement was spearheaded and cultivated mostly by a diverse multitude of Christians throughout the West.
gravenimage says
Excellent post, Voegelinian.
Defcon 4 says
Just because a child molesting, mass murdering, Jew hating psychopath said his was an Abrahamic faith doesn’t make it so. I can say you’re an idiot and a liar, but that doesn’t make it true.
vickie says
A great read:
http://www.christianaction.org.za/index.php/articles/god-and-government/176-the-scourge-of-slavery-the-rest-of-the-story
Carmen Sporidis says
thanks for sharing. This story makes me proud of our Christian past, his heros and in the same moment sad for the people inslaved. When it comes to Muslims they must take a hard look one self to see what they have done to there fellow human
Angemon says
“the American white Christian enslaved millions of blacks”
Americans bought them from muslim slave traders in Africa. And America abolished slavery out of its own free will long before muslim countries were forced to do so (at least officially,slavery is an endemic plague throughout the islamic world) by western nations.
Mr. Dude says
So of course Americans don’t give their children a book, and say the book is the best book of all time, that advocates slavery and how to beat slaves, right? They are moral enough to not bring the atrocity of slavery forward in a book of moral teachings, correct, or AT LEAST to say that the authors of said book got a lot of things wrong, correct?
By the way, Muslims fail at the above, but I hope Christians can be better than that, or am I just dreaming?
Angemon says
“Americans don’t give their children a book, and say the book is the best book of all time, that advocates slavery and how to beat slaves, right?”
Eh, what book are you talking about?
Islamissdeath says
Mr Dude I am Chritian and I assure you current day Christians are adamantly against slavery. Slavery of blacks by Muslim Arabs who settled in their lands is rampant today. Darfur is one example another is Muritania. An Arab prince about 2 years ago murdered his male sex slave in a hotel elevator in Londonistan. Muslims need to find another form of attack because they have more egg on their face about this one than we do. The word for slave and black are the same in Arabic.
Mr. Dude says
Now hold on one second there! Abraham was a slave holder, and Jesus never condemned slavery, and the Bible approves of slavery in many areas, and Moses instructed his minions to kill non-virgins and take the virgins for themselves (sex-slaver?), so can you BLAME them for following their book, when I bet you yourself would say that Muslims should follow THEIR BOOK (the Qur’an)? Which is it, my friend, follow the book, or not follow the book, which is best?
Angemon says
We’ve been through this before. NT supersedes OT. Unless you find passages in the NT where Jesus tells people to get sex slaves or how to beat slaves (and do show the biblical passage where Moses tells people to take sex slaves) since last time you made a claim similar to that, you’re still as wrong as you were. You know, for someone who claims to deal in logic and rational thinking you keep repeating the same thing while expecting different results. Which is the definition of madness…
Champ says
You know, for someone who claims to deal in logic and rational thinking you keep repeating the same thing while expecting different results. Which is the definition of madness…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again-Bravo, Angemon! …you keep hittin’em out of the park with this lying clown.
stevo k says
dude you idiot! the bible MENTIONED slavery as it did occur at that time. but to simply mention does not automatically mean approval! sheeesh. text books of US history MENTION slavery, it is NOT approved though, get it?
now turn to the quran, time and time again slavery is mentioned AND approved by what muslims call the greatest example of mankind.
now go play in the grass troll
Fr. Basil says
And just who do you think it was that sold black Africans into slavery? It was mahometan slave traders. Swahili is a pidgin Arabic used as a lingua franca by them.
This brings up another point:
\\ Jurena argued Williams killed his wife because of an “extreme emotional disturbance,” which is a defense in New York state against a murder charge, giving a jury the option to consider manslaughter.\\
So Williams was “extremely emotionally disturbed.” What is it about mahometanism that makes its practicioners so mentally ill and violent to the point of murder?
RG says
To Fr. Basil – Yes, I’ve suspected this for a long time, but never took the time to research it. Of course it was black muslims who sold their own people into the hands of the white slave traders. I’d like to learn more. Can you provide some references? Thanks!
RG says
To ‘khalafani siddiq’ – Man, are you messed up? I’ve heard better defense for islam from a lot of non-muslims! You are the perfect example of what is WRONG with islam!!! IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT THEN SHUT THE H— UP!!!! WHAT A PIECE-A-WORK!!!!! GO CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR MUSLIM BLACK ROCK, YOU DUMB-ASS!!!
Mr. Dude says
Agreed.
Religions get people, through fear of “hell”, to throw out logic, reason, critical thinking, and common sense, because they take science and reality out of the equation. They are taught that a talking snake is real, that dragons are real, that women are worth 1/2 a man, and that it’s just fine to kill gays (in fact, it’s encouraged in the texts of the Abrahamic faiths.)
Defcon 4 says
The only states which have legalized slavery in the modern world are muslime: Mauritania and the Sudan.
When a scuzzlum points the finger of accusation at anyone kaffir, a thousand fingers point back at him and islam.
cindy mccoy says
I’m afraid you have your facts wrong.
Adam Kratt says
Let’s call it what it is Dishonorable Murder
Findalis says
Another jailhouse convert.
mortimer says
In prison, the convicts will assure him that Islam approves his action based on Mohammed’s perfect example in permitting honor killings.
Tradewinds says
With an IQ of about 10.
voegelinian says
Who; Mr. Dude…? 🙂
Mr. Dude says
CURSE YOU voegelinian, BECAUSE MY IQ IS LIKE, FIVE TIMES THAT NUMBER!!
KrazyKafir says
I see, the pious Muslim concerned about his wife’s Islamic behaviour was, drunk.
Mo says
test
Mr. Dude says
Religious people don’t really understand the term “hypocrite”
Mo says
TEST
Tradewinds says
Look at that brainless ape. No wonder he was attracted to Islam.
Jax Tolmen says
I’m pretty sure that’s a racial slur.
What exactly does his ethnicity have to do with a conversion to Islam? There are Caucasian Muslims, and not all of them are morons.
Racism is not going to get you very far in life, nor is anyone going to respect your opinion – particularly on this site. Despite what the media may have told you, Jihad Watch is not a hate site and we are not a pack of racist fascists.
I believe the majority of the readers of this site would agree with me, vilifying someone based on their race/religion/sexual preference/gender has no place here.
Mr. Dude says
“vilifying someone based on their race/religion/sexual preference/gender has no place here.” – Jax Tolmen
Well spoken!
So can we agree that Jesus/Mohammad have no place here, since they violated that policy of yours in many ways:
Mohammad:
Taught hatred for the Jew.
Taught to kill gays.
Taught to beat women in Q4:34: “Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” http://al-quran.info/#4:34
Jesus:
He was racist: These twelve (disciples) Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.” Matthew 10:5-6
Jesus said he was only sent to help one particular race/group of people (the Israelites) in Matthew 15:24 , as well. He wasn’t concerned about everybody.
He never spoke up against the KILLING of gays that is commanded in multiple places in the main book about him.
He never spoke up against women being worth 1/2 a man even though it’s expressly written in the main book about him.
Jax Tolmen says
I’m an atheist, I dont know what Jesus did – if you’re trying to provoke an argument with me I’d say you’re talking to the wrong person.
I can, however, agree that Mohammed was a racist, bigoted and genocidal maniac – as like most readers of this site, I have done my research. Thus my unwavering support for this site and it’s message.
I simply don’t agree with racism and was thus highlighting the fact that this communities majority would condemn that kind of talk.
Daniel says
@Mr. Dude
You misunderstand Jesus’ command. It was not to not teach Gentiles, it was a matter of priority at that time. He cast demons out of the demoniac in Gedara which was a Gentile place hence the herd of pigs could be present and left the man as a witness to the area, when the people had asked Jesus to leave. When He ascended to heaven He explicitly commanded the disciples to teach all nations (ethnos) the Good News. The Apostles generally started with Jewish people in a given city, but also welcomed Gentiles, that was a matter of strategy, not racism. Jews were expecting a Messiah that the Apostles were preaching had come. Gentiles did not have a background in the Old Testament, which meant that if Jews were converted they could more easily understand and teach their Gentile neighbors.
Show where anywhere in the Bible a woman is considered half a man.
The Law called for stoning adulterers and most forms of immorality, Jesus did not comply with that (John 8:1-11). I realize some people claim that this is not part of John, yet the best argument for its being genuine, is that it was alluded to by many Church Fathers who had to explain Christ’s behavior in an age that favored killing adulterous women. It was an unpopular part of Scripture then, but not disputed. Jews at the Time of Christ were not stoning adulterers or homosexuals since Rome did not allow them to give out the death penalty. The New Testament method of dealing with immorality in the Church was expulsion, not vigilante justice, and they did not judge outsiders only those inside (1 Cor. 5).
Defcon 4 says
He was racist: These twelve (disciples) Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.” Matthew 10:5-6
I’m sorry but your vapid conclusion that Jesus is a “racist” is a non-sequitur, unsupported by your evidence.
St. Michael Defend Us says
You DO know that the bible pre-dates the quran, don’t you?
Angemon says
“What exactly does his ethnicity have to do with a conversion to Islam?”
Islamic recruiters play the race card when it suits them. For example, when approaching african-americans they say something like “christianity is the religion of the white man, the same white man who took your ancestors away from Africa as slaves because their religion mandated so. Your ancestors were muslims, in islam there’s no slavery and we’re taught to fight against the oppressing white man and take their riches and wives for ourselves. Convert to islam and help fight against oppression”.
Jax Tolmen says
When the enemy uses suicide bombers, do you also then utilise them simply because they did it first?
If what you say is true, and Islamic recruiters are playing the race card to further their cause – it does not mean we can also do so. I have never come across an Islamic recruiter honestly, everytime I see them out and about they avoid me like I’m diseased.
Angemon says
@Jax:
“If what you say is true, and Islamic recruiters are playing the race card to further their cause – it does not mean we can also do so.”
“We”? “Also do so”? Sorry, but you lost me there. You asked the role of race when converting to islam and i gave you an example i knew about. That’s it. I’m not endorsing the use of the race card for anything.
Jax Tolmen says
@Agnemon
Ah I was more referring to the original commenter; my original question was a rhetorical one. I wasn’t expecting an actual answer, I was more referring to the original posters usage of a racial slur and implication that his race predisposed him to conversion.
St. Michael Defend Us says
Yes, and many black people to whom I have spoken believe that Mohammad himself was black, and it boosts their own self-esteem to think they are following the black prophet.
Champ says
W
Champ says
Jax, what race are muslims? Exactly, they aren’t a race …
A muslim is one who follows islam; not a specific race, so that comment isn’t racist at all.
Tradewinds says
Thanks Champ.
Tradewinds says
Oh bug off Jax. Take your political correctness and shove it. It’s a fact that the uneducated blacks in prison are extremely susceptible to Islam because they don’t possess the cognitive skills to comprehend its evilness. In addition, Islam appeals to sociopaths and prison is filled with them. As for your insults to me I have no respect for your opinion, I’m not a hater, you are, and furthermore I consider you to be a racist/fascist. How you like them apples? F off.
Tradewinds says
Oh bug off Jax. Take your political correctness and shove it. It’s a fact that the uneducated blacks in prison are extremely susceptible to Islam because they don’t possess the cognitive skills to comprehend its evilness. In addition, Islam appeals to sociopaths and prison is filled with them. As for your insults to me I have no respect for your opinion, I’m not a hater, you are, and furthermore I consider you to be a racist/fascist. How you like them apples? F off.
Champ says
Okay she wasn’t muslim enough, but at least he is …yep, he’s the more devout muslim between them, dontcha know.
Emil says
Muslims are hypocrate. They attend to love all ‘Arabs’ unless he is a Christian/Druze/Bahai etc.
They really managed to con the world with their “love” towards another minorities. practically after they are done with the Jews & Druzes they’ll have time to attack all other ethnics and religious groups.
Islamisdeath says
Emil they are coming for us all. All non Muslims need to stick together
Fr. Basil says
The Baha’i faith originated in Persia, which is NOT an Arab country.
George Kanakis says
It appears Islam is an institutionalized excuse for madmen to do whatever they like. All they have to do is mention Allah and /or Islam and we are supposed to accept their actions. This “religion” encourages individuals (males) to take no responsibility for their actions!!!
Mr. Dude says
In Islam the WOMEN must be covered, to protect them from the irresponsible Muslim male.
Google: cat meat sheik
….and you’ll see that the #1 Muslim in Australia awhile back likened an uncovered women to uncovered meat (and we can’t blame the cat for eating uncovered meat now can we!!!) Insane.
Jax Tolmen says
I remember that, it sparked a media uproar locally. As an Australian with a partner who has been a victim of sexual assault, I found that comment so unbelievably evil and disgusting.
How anyone can blame the victim is beyond me, and it sickens me. There are gangs of Muslim youths in the Western Sydney area that call Australian women ‘dogs’ and say that ‘even if you raped an Aussie b**ch, you couldn’t get her pregnant.’
There is a real problem in the Western world, why are we not actively condemning a religion that allows such things, and has respected spiritual leaders advocating rape against the native population?
Mr. Dude says
Angemon wrote:
“Americans don’t give their children a book, and say the book is the best book of all time, that advocates slavery and how to beat slaves, right?”
Eh, what book are you talking about?
The Bible and/or Qur’an.
Angemon says
So tells where both the bible and the quran mandate slavery and tell their followers to get sexual slaves. You know, for the sake of the argument.
Mr. Dude says
“Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” Numbers 31:7-18.
“In addition, according to Muslim theologians, he made it lawful for male masters to have sexual relations with female captives and slaves;” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
Obviously if someone has the time they can give us more sources that this, but this will have to do for now.
So can someone show us where Dawkins/Harris advocate taking sex slaves? [Crickets] Clearly we’re seeing the dawn of a new morality in the 21st century.
Angemon says
You’re not doing what i asked. Not only you’re not quoting a bible source explicitly mandating the capture of sex slaves to jews and christians nowadays, but you also haven’t given a quote from the quran ( muslim theologians =/= quran) on that subject, like i asked you to do.
Fr. Basil says
Where does the Bible advocate beating slaves? Book, chapter, and verse, please.
And nowhere in the Bible is slavery depicted as a good thing, but something merely tolerated.
Carmen Sporidis says
I am in favor to read them booth. I read the bible when I learn first reading, 7 years old. My gg grandmother gave me a good advice. Learn, read and search. Only when you know your enemies you can come up with a solution
Mr. Dude says
Angemon, wrote “(and do show the biblical passage where Moses tells people to take sex slaves)”
Moses, a hero to Christians/Jews, said:
“Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”
Numbers 31:7-18.
Uh, “keep them for yourselves sound like sexual slavery to me”. Did Jesus ever say “you know, Moses got a lot of s*it wrong”. Nope. But I’ll say it: “Moses got a lot of s*it wrong”.
Angemon says
“Uh, “keep them for yourselves sound like sexual slavery to me”.”
Hold it right there. You think it sounds like sexual slavery to you, so it’s sexual slavery and then you chastise Jesus for not denying what you think it meant? Nine “logic” and “critical thinking” you have going on there.
Mr. Dude says
Come on dude, “keep them for yourselves” means to force them to marry you, and that’s RAPE. Moses approved of rape. Jesus never rebuked him. A moral person, who claims to be a moral teacher like Jesus, and that passage is in the main book about Jesus, would of course condemn Moses. Can YOU condemn the rape in the Bible? I can, because Dawkins/Harris are my role models, not a dead guy who accepted slavery, and won’t let Gandhi into “heaven”.
Mohammad was quite overt in his acceptance of raping “what your right hand possesses”. Yet Muslims won’t say they condemn that act of his. Have they no shame? If Dawkins did that I’d condemn him all day long!
Angemon says
You didn’t. “Come on dude, “keep them for yourselves” means to force them to marry you, and that’s RAPE. Moses approved of rape. Jesus never rebuked him.”
Once again, you’re drawing your own conclusions and chastising Jesus for not speaking against the conclusions you draw. If the passage read “marry them to you” you might have had a point there. But how it is, you got nothing other than your own assertions.
Angemon says
And notice how immediatly above this post i asked him to tell where both the bible and the quran mandate slavery and tell their followers to get sexual slaves. But he has yet to say something about the quran. For someone who claims that christianity is as bad as islam he sure is taking sides.
Champ says
“For someone who claims that christianity is as bad as islam he sure is taking sides.” — Angemon
Yep; this is a typical mohammedan tactic, hmm …
Mr. Dude says
“In addition, according to Muslim theologians, he made it lawful for male masters to have sexual relations with female captives and slaves”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
Mr. Dude says
Make no mistake about it, anybody who says to kill innocent people just because they leave your religion (Mohammad about Islam) is evil. Mohammad was pure evil.
Mr. Dude says
I just posted it about one minute ago. Sorry I didn’t get to it sooner.
Angemon says
You didn’t. I asked you to produce quotes from the quran and the bible that mandate the capturing of sex slaves. You posted a bible quote that you decided it meant rape and/or forced marriage and you posted nothing from the quran. Biased poster is biased.
Mr. Dude says
Valid point you raise, so here’s just a sampling:
QURAN – 4:24
“And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. (Pickthall).
“captives whom your right hand possess”, means the slave girls Muslim men possess.
Sahih Muslim volume 2, #3432: it permitted the Muslim men to have sex with their female slaves.
QURAN – 33:50
“Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;…”
God allows Mo have sex with his slave girls.
Mr. Dude says
Ok, Angemon, what DOES ““keep them for yourselves” mean? Do tell.
I say it means to basically force them to marry you so you can have sex with them (that’s rape…..or can we do that in America today, hmmmmm?) What do YOU say it means?
Too bad Jesus won’t clear this up for us all. He could if he was moral, just like Allah would clear up the misunderstandings in Islam if he was moral.
Angemon says
“I say it means to basically force them to marry you so you can have sex with them (that’s rape…..or can we do that in America today, hmmmmm?) What do YOU say it means?”
I don’t see any reason to why it shouldn’t mean “raise them as if they were your own”.
Champ says
Mr. Dude wrote:
“Too bad Jesus won’t clear this up for us all. He could if he was moral, just like Allah would clear up the misunderstandings in Islam if he was moral.”
What an absurd liar Mr. Dude is …
Again, Mr. Dude is using wrongheaded moral equivalence to bolster his bogus posit that Christianity is JUST as evil as islam; and he isn’t even ashamed to use unfair reasoning in an attempt to accomplish this task, as well.
Anyone with even a modicum of intelligence, fairness and reasoning, *knows* that Jesus was known for being a moral man, and here Mr. Dude calls Jesus’ character into question. Wow he doesn’t even hide the fact that he exercises unfair bias and reason. What a lying clown.
gravenimage says
What witless moral equivalency.
The abolition movement was spearheaded by Christians.
William Wilberforce, who ended the slave trade in England, wrote:
“God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals.”
Methodist founder John Wesley denounced human bondage as “the sum of all villainies”.
The Quakers worked tirelessly to end the slave trade.
Many of the “stations” on the Underground Railroad which smuggled runaway slaves to freedom in the US were churches and the homes of Christian clerics.
Catholic Popes condemned slavery in a series of Papal Bulls beginning in the mid-18th century.
I could go on and on citing examples.
In contrast, there has *never* been an abolition movement in Islam. Saudi Arabia didn’t end slavery (on paper, at least) until 1962, and then only with Western pressure.
Slavery continues in Dar-al-Islam today, openly practiced in places like Mauritania and Sudan.
And Muslim clerics are becoming increasingly vocal for the reinstatement of slavery and sex slavery.
Compare and contrast.
Champ says
Great comment, Graven! …good to see you posting again 🙂
Defcon 4 says
I seem to remember John Brown, the Christian, and his sons starting an insurrection against the US government in opposition to slavery. Most of his sons died in the attempt.
How many atheists did so?
Champ says
Bravo, Defcon4!!
eib says
The only reason you’re writing this here is that you don’t have the courage to discuss it with David Wood or Sam Shamoun.
Coward! Clown!
Mr. Dude says
I’ll take it from your reply that YOU can’t beat me, am I correct? (No offense.)
Look, I dislike Mohammad as much as anyone on this great forum (he’s scum!), but I’m also a fair person, so if god/Jesus are almost as bad then I gotta say that too. I’m just trying to be fair. And so should everyone else.
If we condemn Mohammad for sex slavery, then we gotta condemn Moses for it in Numbers 31:7-18 as well. That’s fair, don’t you agree?
A truth-teller is fair, but a bigot is not fair.
Mr. Dude says
If a book/belief system has the most powerful entity in the universe, the creator of the universe, on it’s side, then it doesn’t NEED apologetics! It should stand on it’s own, or obviously the belief system is a fraud. We of course see that with Islam.
Mr. Dude says
“I don’t see any reason to why it shouldn’t mean “raise them as if they were your own”. – Angemon
So that’s why he said to take the VIRGIN ONES, and kill all the others!? No, obviously you are in serious denial, Moses/Mohammad advocated sex slaves, but admitting that would blow your whole world view.
I can condemn Moses/Mohammad for killing people, but I don’t think you can, am I correct?
Angemon says
“So that’s why he said to take the VIRGIN ONES, and kill all the others!?”
The accusation that the girls were taken for sexual slavery contradicts what it’s know about the culture and about the event.
“No, obviously you are in serious denial, Moses/Mohammad advocated sex slaves”
Once again, tell me where Moses advocated sex slavery. Other than your own interpretation of the biblical passage, that is. The passages in the quran and ahadith are clear in that regard though – muslims are allowed to have sex with their female slaves, even if they are married. In fact, in islamic law muslim women need to be covered but female slaves can be naked from the waist up.
Defcon 4 says
The people Moses and the ancient Hebrews were fighting against attacked them first. The atrocity happened in the context of open warfare — unlike when Muhahahahamad attacked the Jewish tribe of Khybar under the auspices of a peace treaty.
Mr. Dude says
“What an absurd liar Mr. Dude is …
Again, Mr. Dude is using wrongheaded moral equivalence to bolster his bogus posit that Christianity is JUST as evil as islam; and he isn’t even ashamed to use unfair reasoning in an attempt to accomplish this task, as well.” – Champ
Champ, I bet many members of your family (for example) if they had Jesus/Allah’s alleged super-powers, and they saw us humans struggling mightily to understand what they were trying to really say, would indeed have taken time out of their busy schedules to clarify to their “children” what their message REALLY was. You know, as a service to the “children” they love so much. Am I correct, would they do that, or not? I know that *I* would, because I care about humanity, and I bet your family members do too. I’m not sure Jesus/Allah care about us, since they steadfastly refuse to simply CLARIFY their hard-to-understand messages (the “most important messages of all time”, at that!)
PS one reason there are 15+ different versions of the Bible at biblehub.com is because we often don’t know what the heck god/jesus were saying, we can’t agree on squat. I say Moses/Mohammad encouraged sex slaves, and for example, Angemon says that’s completely wrong (I consider Angemon us both intelligent people, too.)
Angemon says
“PS one reason there are 15+ different versions of the Bible at biblehub.com is because we often don’t know what the heck god/jesus were saying, we can’t agree on squat.”
15+ versions? Whoa, it’s almost like the language evolves and words change. And as far as i know, different “versions” have annotations saying “in the insert edition here the word X is used instead”.
“I say Moses/Mohammad encouraged sex slaves”
You saying that Moses encouraged sex slaves isn’t the same as the bible saying so, which was the assertion you made. You repeatedly stated that the bible mandated sex slaves, so your statement now sounds like a cop-out.
Mr. Dude says
I just figured it out: YOU CAN’T CONDEMN MOSES/MOHAMMAD FOR ADVOCATING SEX SLAVES CAN YOU!? I’m stunned. I can condemn them, why can’t you. We need to stand up and call out atrocities when we see it (the main stream media won’t do this, as Robert has bravely pointed out thousands of times.)
Angemon says
“I just figured it out: YOU CAN’T CONDEMN MOSES/MOHAMMAD FOR ADVOCATING SEX SLAVES CAN YOU!? I’m stunned. I can condemn them, why can’t you. We need to stand up and call out atrocities when we see it ”
Once again, mr. Dude is being purposely dishonest. Notice how he failed to prove that the bible mandates sexual slavery and is instead replying WITH CAPS LOCK ON that i can’t condem Moses or muhammad for endorsing sexual slavery. I’ve condemned muhammad (and not just for the sexual slavery bit) many times before, and i would have condemn Moses if mr. Dude had done what he set up to do. However, by mr. Dude’s own admission, the “sex slaves” part was just on his interpretation. The truth is that if the israelites wanted sex slaves they would have taken all women, not the prepubescent ones only. Of all the terrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT pedophilia is weirdly missing. And if they were really to be taken as slaves (and slavery in the OT isn’t the same kind of slavery that practiced by muslims, americans or europeans), they’d have to be fed, clothed, trained and cared for until they grew up and could be of any use. Once again, it would make more sense to take not only older women but also the men (who were to be put to the sword).
voegelinian says
” there are 15+ different versions of the Bible at biblehub.com is because we often don’t know what the heck god/jesus were saying, we can’t agree on squat.”
— Mr. Dude
By the way, this is a typical misunderstanding of the Bible I’ve seen Muslims express multitudes of times. I’ve never seen an atheist do it. Something’s fish here…
voegelinian says
and fishy…
Defcon 4 says
One of my former friends, a highly educated, but morally retarded graduate from Georgetown, was fond of defending islam0nazism in the same way as Dude (i.e. that Christianity is “just as bad”).
Champ says
Mr. Dude extends to me the major chip that’s on his shoulder by offering me a few rhetorical questions, that are *dripping with sarcasm*, and now he’s undoubtedly expecting a direct reply …
Nooot gonna happen!
He’s just a lying clown who’s hardly worth the time I’ve taken in reading his inane comments regarding moral equivalence between Christianity and islam.
This ignoramus needs to read Robert’s book:
“Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is And Islam Isn’t”
People like Mr. Delusional come from the moral equivalency crowd, and Robert tackles this wrongheaded thinking in this book …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christianity or Islam: which is the real “religion of peace”?
Almost any liberal pundit will tell you that there’s a religion bent on destroying our Constitution, stripping us of our liberties, and imposing religious rule on the U.S. And that religion is . . .Christianity! About Islam, however, the Left is silent–except to claim a moral equivalence between the two: if Islam has terrorists today, that’s nothing compared to the Crusades, inquisitions, and religious wars in Christianity’s past.
But is this true? Are conservative Christians really more of a threat to free societies than Islamic jihadists? Is the Bible really “just as violent” as the Qur’an? Is Christianity’s history really as bloodstained as Islam’s? In Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t, New York Times bestselling author Robert Spencer not only refutes such charges, but also explains why Americans and Europeans must regain an appreciation of our Christian heritage if we ever hope to defeat Islamic supremacism. In this eye opening work, Spencer reveals:
* The fundamental differences between Islamic and Christian teachings about warfare against other religions: “Love your enemies” vs. “Be ruthless to the unbelievers”
* The myth of Western immorality and Islamic puritanism and why the Islamic world is less moral than the West
* Why the Islamic world has never developed the distinction between religious and secular law that is inherent in Christianity
* Why Christianity has always embraced reason–and Islam has always rejected it
* Why the most determined enemies of Western civilization may not be the jihadists at all, but the leftists who fear their churchgoing neighbors more than Islamic terrorists
* Why Jews, Christians, and peoples of other faiths (or no faith) are equally at risk from militant Islam
Spencer writes not to proselytize, but to state a fact: Christianity is a true “religion of peace,” and on it Western civilization stands. If we are not to perish under Islam’s religion of the sword–with its more than 100 million active jihadists seeking to impose sharia law–we had better defend our own civilization.
http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Peace-Christianity-Islam-Isnt/dp/1596985151
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Methinks Mr. Delusional needs to purchase this book and stat! …especially if he plans on contributing further to Jihad Watch; if not, then he will remain a fool and in darkness regarding the truth about Christianity vs islam.
Defcon 4 says
@Champ
I seem to remember reading Yeshua stating something about “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
That would imply that Yeshua saw a difference between the state and his religious beliefs and that they were not one and the same.
Champ says
That would imply that Yeshua saw a difference between the state and his religious beliefs and that they were not one and the same.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great point, Defcon 4!
Yes, and I found at least two Bible verses stating this from Jesus …
“Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.” — Mark 12:17
“And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.” — Matthew 22:20-22
duh_swami says
What is this, Bible study class? ‘How many angels can dance on the head of a pin’? Get that correct and you win a prize…
Mr. Dude says
Dawkins et al believe that religion is the big problem, not just the Islamic religion. He’s right.
duh_swami says
That may be the case but some religions are far worse than others. The worst one on record, measured in long term damage done is Islam. You may have a case on some other forum, but not this one.
Defcon 4 says
The morally retarded argument of the atheist: all religions are the same.
Then move to an islamic state dirtbag, stat.
Rob Crawford says
Dawkins is a fool. He’s a prime example of a fundamentalist, and no one who is serious should cite him as an example of anything but that.
Mr. Dude says
1. Would Dawkins let Einstein into “heaven” if Dawkins was in charge? Of course he would because he’s more compassionate than Allah/Jesus are.
2. Would Allah/Jesus? No of course not. Jesus: “the only what to the father is through me”. Sorry, Einstein, but Allah/Jesus aren’t really all-loving like their followers claim.
Mr. Dude says
“Once again, mr. Dude is being purposely dishonest. Notice how he failed to prove that the bible mandates sexual slavery and is instead replying WITH CAPS LOCK ON that i can’t condem Moses or muhammad for endorsing sexual slavery. I’ve condemned muhammad (and not just for the sexual slavery bit) many times before, and i would have condemn Moses if mr. Dude had done what he set up to do. However, by mr. Dude’s own admission, the “sex slaves” part was just on his interpretation. The truth is that if the israelites wanted sex slaves they would have taken all women, not the prepubescent ones only. Of all the terrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT pedophilia is weirdly missing. And if they were really to be taken as slaves (and slavery in the OT isn’t the same kind of slavery that practiced by muslims, americans or europeans), they’d have to be fed, clothed, trained and cared for until they grew up and could be of any use. Once again, it would make more sense to take not only older women but also the men (who were to be put to the sword).” – Angemon.
I’ve never seen more indirect, underlying tacit approval of sex slavery (it’s not overt, I’ll admit, but it’s deep down) that your post. Never. Incredible. We are both on the same side, we want Mohammad destroyed, and the other Abrahamic faith will likely be a casualty in this war, the sooner people can admit that, the sooner we can defeat Mohammad. This war will see the rise of Dawkins, and the fall of supernatural based belief systems (Abrahamic faiths mostly) by the time it’s over. Just my opinion, but it seems the writing is on the wall.
As we can’t counter Islam’s flying horse with the bible’s talking donkey! That’ wont work!
Angemon says
“I’ve never seen more indirect, underlying tacit approval of sex slavery (it’s not overt, I’ll admit, but it’s deep down) that your post.”
And here’s mr. Dude scaling up his dishonesty to outright lies. Even though i said i condemned sexual slavery he feels the need of saying the exact opposite to draw attention away from the fact that he failed to do what he set to do: to prove that the bible mandated sexual slavery. Forget the logic and critical thinking he gloated about, he’s doing the internet equivalent of sticking his finger in his hears and shouting “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU BUT YOU’RE WRONG”.
“we want Mohammad destroyed”
Actually, that’s just you. I never said anything remotely close to that. BTW, muhammad died 1400 years ago (if he ever even existed in the first place). So how come you want to destroy a dead man?
Champ says
Bravo, Angemon!
Mr. Dude says
Uh, ok, I see your point…then destroy the belief that he was a “prophet” of god, how about that?
Angemon says
Muslims can claim that muhammad was a prophet for all i care, the same way any other religion is free to claim someone is a prophet. However, i find impossible to believe that allah is the same god worshipped by jews and christians, like muslims claim. What i want is a reformation in islam that ends with the literalistic approach and the arab supremacy embed in it. And that’s impossible to achieve if everyone just keeps repeating “islam is a religion of peace” instead of facing the problematic parts and working from there. However, it’s impossible to be done from the outside and there’s no indication of any reformation movement coming from the inside. In fact, the only islamic reformative movement i can think of happened when muslims looked at sad state of affairs in their countries and thought “why is it that the jews and christians are propering and we’re living in abject poverty?”. Their answer: they needed to follow islam in a more strict way. Ad that’s how the salafi movement started.
On the other side, after WW1 Attaturk looked at the sad state of affairs in Turkey and thought to himself “what can i do to improve this?”. His answer: to end the caliphate (which was responsible for declaring offensive warfare against non-islamic ountries), separate mosque from state and overall emulate europe/US. The result: Turkey prospered.
So yeah, i want what most people in this site want: that islamic leaders get their head out of their asses, realize they don’t live in 7th century arabia anymore and that they need to be flexible if they want the rest of the world to respect them or their religion. Instead they choose to throw a tantrum and kill people just because they perceive something taking place thousands of miles away as an insult to their religion. If, like you claim, you’re a secular atheist humanist, that kind of behavior should be offensive and intolerable to you. But instead you’re more worried in pretending Moses mandated sexual slavery or telling everyone Jesus is a magical invisible zombie because, according to your logic, christianity and islam are the same thing and therefore if you bring one down you bring all of them down. Guess what: islam does not acknowledge the death and resurrection of Jesus, so even if you could prove it never happened you wouldn’t be bringing islam down, you’d only be empowering it.
Oh, who am kidding? You’re not fooling anyone, you just like to bash christians. Maybe you’re a muslim, maybe you’re a leftist, maybe you were molested by a priest when you were a kid (that would explain your fixation regarding sexual slavery on the bible). I don’t know and i really don’t care. As for your question regarding what’s the best ideology to convert muslims away from islam and jihad, well, i’ve seen plenty of stories about allah ackbar shouting jihadis converting to christianity and changing their ways but very few where a muslim would decide that he was in fact an atheist. If faith plays a very important role in the life of muslims (and i’m talking about northen africa, middle east, the islamic world, not westernized european/US muslims who dress as any given westerner, go to schools where there’s no gender segregation and are free to have friends and date outside their religion) then it’s easier to have them join a different religion than to have them believe god doesn’t exist. But no, you’re too dumb to realize that and you prefer to stay in your sad little world, bashing christians while pretending to be treating all religions equally. Good luck with that. Seriously, if you need to lie and attack people online to make yourself feel good then you must have a sad, miserable little life and I honestly feel sorry for you.
Mr. Dude says
For the record, can you say (and please don’t say “I said that before!”) that Moses should be condemned for advocating sexual slavery?
We know that you condemn Mohammad for sexual slavery and I admire that.
Angemon says
“For the record, can you say (and please don’t say “I said that before!”) that Moses should be condemned for advocating sexual slavery?”
Moses didn’t advocate sexual slavery in the bible (you said it yourself that it was just your interpretation), but if he did i’d condemn him for it.
Champ says
Moses did NOT condone sexual slavery, this is a bald-faced lie by the lying clown “Mr. Dude” …
Question: “What does the Bible say about rape?”
Answer here: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html
voegelinian says
Where are our stalwart Atheist Jihad Watchers who patrol this site for any signs of dastardly Christians who don’t seem to be respecting Church-State Separation? This Mr. Dude character has been despoiling numerous threads with copiously egregious and outrageous comments yet the atheists “inquisador” and “RodSerling” are noticeably absent. Meanwhile, they are in another thread interrogating the Dastardly Christian named Foolster.
Mr. Dude says
They understand that the real problem is not people like me (and Dawkins) who embrace reality, but rather people who are out of touch with reality. I’ll boldly assume that Foolster, and Jesus, and Mohammad believe in some of the following: a talking donkey, a flying horse with wings, dragons, magic invisible people with wings that fly around, a “jinn” who might live in my nose and was made from fire, the absurdity of a talking dead guy, etc., etc., etc.)
By the way, the only reason a sane person would believe the things that Jesus/Mohammad/Moses claim is because they were indoctrinated into the cult as young children, or they are severely afraid of death, so they’ll ditch science and common sense in favor of believing someone who claims he can defeat death.
Jax Tolmen says
Let me state now that I’m an atheist, and don’t believe in any god or supreme being. That being said, I can see the attraction that religion holds for people – it provides a purpose, a safety net and moral guidelines.
The actual belief in God seems to be a timeless occurrence, it’s almost like a coping mechanism to describe things beyond our ability to comprehend or process. It’s a fundamentally human thing to attach meaning to relatively insignificant occurrences.
I respect people’s right to believe whatever they want even though I will never join their club – I do hold dear the concept of faith; even though my understanding of faith is not related to a God, religion or anything supernatural.
Mr. Dude says
“I can see the attraction that religion holds for people – it provides a purpose, a safety net and moral guidelines. ” – Jax
Buy you obviously believe religion is a big lie, designed for the aggrandaisement of the belief system’s founder, so isn’t TRUTH more important than comforting fantasies (at least for adults)?
By the way, religion is why this web site was (unfortunately) much needed in the first place (Robert has done a great job, and I’m sure he looks forward to the day when it’s no longer, well, NEEDED.)
Champ says
That being said, I can see the attraction that religion holds for people – it provides a purpose, a safety net and moral guidelines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for sharing …
But as a Christian my faith in Jesus Christ offers me *much more* than the reasons you’ve listed!
Jax Tolmen says
I don’t care why people choose to do the right thing, as long as they do. A comforting lie is not necessarily a good thing, which I agree with – but i think trying to eliminate religion in its entirety is an exercise in futility because people will always cling to those beliefs.
Also, yes I agree that there are destructive elements within religion; however most of it is relatively benign. If it wasn’t religion causing people to do bad things, it would be politics or any kind of rhetoric.
And I also concur that religion is the reason this site was created, but this site deals with only one religion and is not aiming to destroy it; merely expose serious issues and promote reform.
Robert Spencer is Catholic/Christian if I’m not mistaken.
Jax Tolmen says
@Champ
That’s good, I can’t really understand it personally but whatever makes you happy. I’m always open to discussion and I’m not one to vilify individuals based on those beliefs.
I am not the militant kind of Atheist as you can see. I find Christianity to be a relatively benign religion, and regard it as the basis of Western Civilisation – even though the West may have evolved beyond the teachings of the church.
gravenimage says
More from Mr. Dude:
By the way, religion is why this web site was (unfortunately) much needed in the first place
…………………………..
Actually, no—just supremacist Islam. No other religion is waging violent Jihad against “unbelievers”.
More:
(Robert has done a great job, and I’m sure he looks forward to the day when it’s no longer, well, NEEDED.)
…………………………..
Mr. Dude appears to believe that Robert Spencer looks forward to the end of religion. This is not the case. Robert Spencer is himself a devout Christian—a Melkite Catholic.
Mr. Spencer has worked with Atheists and Agnostics—as well as Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and his fellow Christians—against Jihad.
Robert Spencer passionately believes in freedom of worship—including the right not to worship.
Islam threatens these freedoms.
Defcon 4 says
Do you have any excuse for the mass murder and genocide carried out by atheists like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?
Rob Crawford says
Meh. Like Dawkins, their god was power.
Mr. Dude says
They are not Modern Secular Humanists like Dawkins/Harris, who of course strongly favor DEMOCRACY as the cornerstone of society. Those other guys were 180 degrees off in that regard, of course. Those 3 were not to be emulated, as they basically elevated THE STATE to a level of “religion”, if you will.
Angemon says
Mr. Dude posted:
“They are not Modern Secular Humanists like Dawkins/Harris, who of course strongly favor DEMOCRACY as the cornerstone of society. Those other guys were 180 degrees off in that regard, of course. Those 3 were not to be emulated, as they basically elevated THE STATE to a level of “religion”, if you will.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Mr. Dude says
Me: “Too bad Jesus won’t clear this up for us all. He could if he was moral, just like Allah would clear up the misunderstandings in Islam if he was moral.”
Champ: “What an absurd liar Mr. Dude is … ”
Champ, if you had those super-powers, would YOU clear this all up for us (Allah won’t of course) or would you enjoy watching humanity struggle to try to interpret just WHAT THE HECK did you really say (again, if you had those super-powers). Here is a chance to be more moral than Allah.
Mr. Dude says
Islamisdeath wrote: “Mr Dude I am Chritian and I assure you current day Christians are adamantly against slavery.”
Excellent! Then to be consistent, and not just full of hot air, you’ll of course, the next time you buy a bible (especially to give to your impressionable children), insist that the parts that approve of slavery are simply not brought forward in the new working version of the Bible. Fantastic!
Mr. Dude says
Angemon, I appreciate your obviously well-thought-out lengthy reply. And again, yes, Islam is clearly evil.
We all should do our part in this war we are in….the longest in US history, with no end in sight.
Jesus has failed miserably to do his part, as that zombie (sorry, but that’s how I personally think of him) would only have to provide enough evidence to convince Muslims that he’s actually real (as a Biblical Christian, say) and they would of course stop emulating Mohammad’s Jihad against the infidel. Jesus, since he can allegedly read everybody’s mind at once, would of course know what evidence it would take for each person to understand that he’s actually real. He wouldn’t have to change “free will”, just provide evidence, which he’s obviously failed miserably to do, or else they’d be Christians and not Muslims.
so he’s either:
1. Not real.
Or
2. Doesn’t care about us.
Or
3. Is really really stupid.
In each case he’s of course not worth worshipping.
Jesus, snap your fingers and provide enough evidence for, just say, oh, half the AQ members to believe that you are a actually real (and are a Christian, so they wouldn’t continue in Islamic Jihad.) Jesus, I dare you.
PJG says
Mr Dude, I for one am sick and tired of your atheist-supremacism. You are wasting your time with your condescending proselytising for atheism.
Someone above recommended Robert’s book about Christianity and Islam. Please be humble enough to read it and learn something new. Can’t you see how weak or irrelevant your arguments are in the context of the issue being discussed on this website?
To argue how bad Christianity is in a time when Muslims are committing atrocities based on their religious texts EVERY DAY – a situation requiring urgent attention – is way beyond absurd. Actually, it seems downright immoral to me. What good are you doing in the face of evil? Nothing. Just sneering at those who ARE doing something and being a smart-alec.
Mr. Dude says
“Of course it was black muslims who sold their own people into the hands of the white slave traders.” – RG
RG, just think how much better the world would have been if Mohammad/Jesus had actually fully spoken out against slavery….just think how many fewer people would have suffered if those two had been moral enough and smart enough to do that. It’s sad, really.
If we could just teleport you back in time and you could tell Mohammad/Jesus that they were wrong to not do that, and they were moral enough to see that you were right, then you’d be one of the greatest people to ever have lived. Crazy thought, I know, but do realize what an impact that would have made.
Angemon says
“ if Mohammad/Jesus had actually fully spoken out against slavery”
Muhammad didn’t fully spoke against slavery for the same reason he didn’t half-spoke against slavery: he actively endorsed slavery. He left no doubt about it: muslims are to wage war against non-muslims because of their religion, they give 20% of their share (riches, slaves, etc) to their ruler and keep the rest for themselves. Seeing how you failed to produce biblical quotes where it’s stated that christians are to practice slavery and you have produced quotes from the quran endorsing sexual slavery, that you’re still treating Jesus and muhammad like they’re somehow said something similar regarding slavery it either proves that either you have the attention span of a goldfish or you’re not interested in a logical discussion, just in bashing christians.
Mr. Dude says
Good work. Yes, we both fully agree that Mohammad was a disgusting slave owner, and the sooner Muslims realize that the sooner they will start to doubt he’s really god’s #1 dude.
So Angemon, if YOU had Jesus’ super-powers of seeing the future and being all-knowing and all (allegedly), would YOU have at least once, just once, simply said “slavery is wrong. The Father got it wrong”, and have helped your “children” (humanity) in untold ways? Would you? Richard Dawkins would, of course. I would, of course.
Angemon says
“ Mohammad was a disgusting slave owner, and the sooner Muslims realize that the sooner they will start to doubt he’s really god’s #1 dude.”
Nowhere in islam is stated that muhammad was god. In fact, the opposite is specifically stated, and saying muhammad is god is shirk.
“So Angemon, if YOU had Jesus’ super-powers of seeing the future and being all-knowing and all (allegedly), would YOU have at least once, just once, simply said “slavery is wrong. The Father got it wrong”, and have helped your “children” (humanity) in untold ways? Would you? Richard Dawkins would, of course. I would, of course.”
You’re saying that if you had the means to force your will upon all mankind you’d do so? Congratulations, you are not any different from any given tyrant! I’m quite certain that Richard Dawkins would take offence if he saw you trying to compare yourself to him after all you’ve been doing here.
gravenimage says
“Mr. Dude” wrote:
Yes, we both fully agree that Mohammad was a disgusting slave owner, and the sooner Muslims realize that the sooner they will start to doubt he’s really god’s #1 dude.
………………………..
My God, what crap. “Mr. Dude” would have us believe that Muslims are a) ignorant of the fact that Muhammed was a slave owner, and that b) if they knew, it would cause them to doubt whether he was the “Prophet”.
This also posits that Muslims would consider Allah opposed to slavery.
But as is clear, many Muslims are *very* clear on their knowledge that Muhammed owned slaves and that the texts of Islam condone slavery.
Slavery is still practiced in the Muslim world on this basis—and many Imams are calling for an Ummah-wide return to taking slaves, all on the model of the “Prophet”.
RG says
WOW! ‘Mr. Dude’ – I’m so glad you know more than God! Tell me, Mr. Dude, are you seriously trying to outdo the wisdom of God? If there’s one thing I learned a long time ago, it’s that God knows just a little bit more about things than I could ever hope to know. If that makes me a gullible idiot–then, praise God, I’ll be a gullible idiot for Jesus!!! Come on, really? Do you believe you or I could make a world of difference, when God himself came down to earth in human flesh and blood–AND HALF THE WORLD (OR MORE) REFUSES TO BELIEVE THAT! I mean, really, what kind of funny tobacky are you smokin’???
Mr. Dude says
god/jesus know more than I do? God/Jesus do NOT know more than YOU do, that’s for sure.
1. Do YOU think it’s ok to kill gays? god/Jesus do (unless someone can produce evidence of Jesus saying the OT is wrong, wrong, about saying to kill gays.
2. would YOU let Gandhi into your country club in the sky? God/Jesus clearly won’t.
3. do you believe that YOUR mother is worth 1/2 a man? god/Jesus never gave any indication that the wording in the bible are wrong.
4. If YOU had the cure for cancer like the all-powerful Jesus/Allah had would YOU share it with the world? When another person dies of cancer, and Jesus knows he has the cure, does he cackle to himself, or feel bad, or does he just not give a damn?….I’d like to know.
See, you are indeed better than their invisible friend in the sky, and, plus, you can prove you exist, and Allah/Jesus can’t. “BUT HE COULD IF HE WANTED TO!” they’ll scream….The only reason he would not want to was so that more people make the mistake of not worshipping him and therefore end up in hell. Pretty sick, if you ask me.
ecosse1314 says
Silence does not mean consent. Your theory is based on the premise that if Jesus says nothing about a subject then He must automatically agree with it. Jesus ,I believe, stated quite clearly “Do unto others as you have done unto you”that I believe is a complete answer to the drivel you posted above.
Mr. Dude says
Ahhh, but that was allegedly 2000 years ago. Let him come down now during the World Cup NOW, with our smartphones, etc., and see how many people believe in him. Oh he KNOWS that, he knows he could keep billions from going to hell, but he’s either immoral or doesn’t exist. Clearly.
thomas_h says
“Let him come down now during the World Cup NOW, with our smartphones, etc., and see how many people believe in him. ”
Ah, if only Aristotle, Aquinas, Pascal, Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Leibniz, Einstein owned a really, really smart smartphone and tickets to the World Cup that would have cured them from their theism.
Would it worked if the stage was set at the Olympics? I mean would something more, or less, sophisticated than a smartphone be required for the effect?
And if these giants had known THEN that something like a smartphone will be a commonly used article in the 21th century and had a good, theoretical at least, grip on football, would this make them ditch their faith in Creator?
RG says
To ‘Mr. Dude’ – WOW! If you’re a smoker, I hope you don’t “dare” God to light your cigarette!!! WOW!!!
Mr. Dude says
Look, Allah/Jesus have had over 1400 years to prove they aren’t just like all the other fairy tales out there (Hindism, Buddhism, Jainism, Judaism, etc., etc.), and they’ve failed miserably at proving they are real, so they obviously aren’t, so there’s nothing to fear. If you don’t fear Zeus, then don’t fear Allah or Jesus….or Santa etc.
Destroying the belief in the supernatural weakens Mohammad’s hold over people, and helps to bring this war to an end.
Defcon 4 says
@Dude
“Destroying the belief in the supernatural weakens Mohammad’s hold over people, and helps to bring this war to an end.”
Only in your delusions.
Why don’t you try publicly preaching your atheist cause in front of a mosque? Or any islamic state? Or Dearbornistan, Michigan. After all, if all religions are the same you’ll have nothing to fear.
gravenimage says
Back to the appalling story above, which “Mr. Dude” hopes we have forgotten about with his witless Bible interpretations:
New York: Muslim killed his wife “because he objected to her behavior in their Muslim community”
………………………………..
This is *very, very* common, where “Honor Killings” are spurred not just by the killer, but by the Muslim community.
More:
“A detective showed Williams a photo of Wallace and referred to the victim as a Muslim woman. Williams then said: ‘Muslim woman? If she was a Muslim woman none of this (expletive) would even exist.’”
………………………………..
And this pious Mohammedan clearly believes that these are grounds for murder. And why not? Muslims all over the world believe just the same.
More:
Robert Williams said he was sorry for killing his wife, Sharene Wallace.
………………………………..
He didn’t sound sorry when he was justifying his actions over the victim’s being “insufficiently Islamic”—so like many Muslims, I imagine he is just sorry that he was caught.
More:
Wallace, 37, known as Sakina, was stabbed more than 30 times in the neck…
………………………………..
Over “30 times”—classic rage-filled Muslim overkill.
And Sharene Wallace was known as Sakina—notice there is no mention of murderer Robert Williams’ Muslim name.
Mirren10 says
Hi, graven ! Excellent post, as always.
”Wallace, 37, known as Sakina, was stabbed more than 30 times in the **neck** (my emphasis: Mirren)
Yes. This so often seems to be the preferred method of murder.
”When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4”
Mirren (aka Jan)
Champ says
Hi Mirren10 aka Jan! xo 🙂
Mirren10 says
Hi, Champ, hope you and your family are all well !
X 🙂
gravenimage says
Hi Mirren! I’m not surprised to hear you are Jan—I thought your perceptive observations sounded familiar.
KingRichardTheLionheart says
Sounds about right just like every other muslim….. Massively hypocritical
The funniest thing is Muslim clerics even admit without their backwards sharia there would be no islam today. Yet proclaim it would solve all the problems of the world if only it could be implemented…..
These guys need educating i mean seriously how are people still so fucking stupid to believe in a sky god who is supposedly, The MOST merciful and yet if you do anything wrong or dont believe, you should be killed. Common sense says thats not merciful but down right evil.
Allah is so insecure just like mohammed and muslims are just the same, insulting their idiotic beliefs just means they go crazy and riot. Quite hilarious really because they just prove our point of how backwards they are and how NOT PEACEFUL islam is.
No Fear says
When muslim clerics claim that all problems in the world are fixed by Islam they mean all their own problems will be solved because they will be in control, in a management role over everyone.
Defcon 4 says
@No Fear
I’d say their role is less like that of a manager and more like that of a petty tyrant.
Keith says
Jihad Quotes from the Qu’ran
-Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah’s Apostle said, “Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.” Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 52, Num. 73.
-Narrated Abu Juhaifa:“….no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.” Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Num. 283.
-“And slay them wherever ye catch them.” Qur’an 2:191.
-“Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad). He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.” Qur’an 9:39.
-“O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbeliever and the hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed.” Qur’an 9:73
-God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. Qur’an 9:111.
In short, to kill and be killed is the highest achievement in Islam, i.e. kill Allah’s enemies.
-Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and his Apostle.” Bukhari Vol .9, Book 89, Num. 271.
-I heard the Prophet saying, “In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection.” Sahih Bukhari Vol.6, Book 61, Num. 577.
Defcon 4 says
I’ll bet this kind of sacralised, mindless, xenophobic violence is echoed throughout the ahadith as well.
voegelinian says
Keith is also quoting from the hadiths. Any one of his quotes that has “narrated by” comes from hadiths.
Defcon 4 says
Thanks, that makes perfect sense. From what I understand, the hadiths are the sayings of muhammad as related by those that heard them.
Mr. Dude says
“While white Christians bought enslaved Africans” – Carolyne
If Jesus had spoken out against slavery, like a moral person in his position would of course do, then his followers likely would not have purchased slaves!! As a Modern Secular Humanist this is obvious to me, but I’m not sure members of the Abrahamic faiths “get” this. Jesus’ failure to be moral resulted in untold suffering, just like his hatred for non-Christians, like Gandhi, are going to cause Gandhi to (allegedly) burn, then burn some more, then burn some more, forever….