This kind of censorship is routine when it comes to something deemed “un-Islamic” in a Muslim country. A far greater cause for concern is the self-censorship that the Western media increasingly practices in regard to things that offend Muslims: for example, the near-universal unwillingness to reprint the Muhammad cartoons, which despite the furor they caused were actually quite bland. A willingly Sharia-compliant media is the enemy of free people.
An update on this story. “Egyptian Islamic body says Russell Crowe’s ‘Noah’ should be banned,” from News.com.au, March 7:
RUSSELL Crowe’s new big budget biblical epic Noah is facing a battle to get on to screens, with bans in place in several countries.
The Hollywood Reporter states that censor boards in Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates will refuse a local release for the film, which was directed by Darren Aronofsky for Paramount.
Studio executives are expecting similar bans in Egypt, Jordan and Kuwait, the site reported.
Egypt’s top Islamic body has already claimed the film is irreligious and should be banned.
The Al-Azhar institute, one of the region’s main Sunni Muslim authorities, said the movie, slated to open in Egypt on March 26, violated Islam by portraying a prophet.
Al-Azhar can play an advisory role on censoring movies and books in Egypt, but does not have the final say.
Portraying a prophet “contradicts the stature of prophets and messengers … and antagonises the faithful,” the institution said in a statement.
Egypt’s censorship board must approve any movie before it is shown, but it was not immediately clear whether it has approved Noah yet.
Egypt has censored other movies in the past, including the blockbuster The Da Vinci Code after protests from the Orthodox Coptic Church….
Brian says
Oh well, it’s obvious that if people in these countries see the film, they MIGHT commit apostasy. The point is, these Islamic laws are in existence for the same reason the inquisition in Europe was: to keep people under control and under the religious thumb of their superiors.
As George Carlin once said: Keep thy religion to thyself.
MilanL says
Brian, why people on the Middle East should feed themselves with such a westernian bullshits? I’m from ‘free democratic country’ from Central Europe and I realize God gave us sound mind to select very honestly, what we are going to consume, because we aren’t bins to store any kind of Hollywood rubbish. On the West became very popular to ridicule Jesus, Christianity, Church…There become very popular the Dan Brown’s commercial propaganda of Da Vinci Code doubting and undermining authority of Holy Scripture and of authority of the Holy Church by promoting Judas Gospel and other doubtful NewTestament apocrypha texts….No!!! Why we should follow scoffing tone of these Jesus-mocking, Christianity-mocking, Bible-mocking things just because it seems ‘modern’, ‘up-to-date’, and ‘popular’…No, I won’t follow this at all…
Angemon says
“The point is, these Islamic laws are in existence for the same reason the inquisition in Europe was”
You know nothing about islamic laws and the inquisition if you think they’re comparable…
Angemon says
Also, your George Carlin quote? Romans, 14:22.
duh_swami says
It’s only a movie. The participants are not real, they are actors.
Chances are that most of those who want to ban it, have not seen it.
Angemon says
They don’t need to see it. Even if the narrative was completely according to the islamic history if Noah, islam prohibits portraying any prophet.
Also, note the last paragraph: “Egypt has censored other movies in the past, including the blockbuster The Da Vinci Code after protests from the Orthodox Coptic Church“.
What does that have to do with banning the Noah film? Why, nothing, that’s what. It’s just there for the sake of relativism: “Crazy muslims, getting their garments in a bunch because of a film. Well, Christians did it too, so i guess it’s A-OK”. The Da Vinci Code was criticized by almost all Christian denominations because of its inaccurate description of core aspects of Christianity and descriptions of European art, history, and architecture (still, it shouldn’t have been banned, IMO). Basically, Dan Brown re-wrote history and passed it as facts. Noah, on the other hand, is being banned because is a depiction of a prophet.
voegelinian says
The Da Vinci Code also purveys and indulges in anti-Catholic inanity, which all intelligent secular Westerners should also oppose. Indeed, it’s arguable that anti-Catholicism is one source of and precursor to the much broader irrationally and morbidly self-critical anti-Western animus indulged by far too many Westerners.
thomas_h says
@voegelinian
“Indeed, it’s arguable that anti-Catholicism is one source of and precursor to the much broader irrationally and morbidly self-critical anti-Western animus indulged by far too many Westerners.”
Yes! Very much my belief.
Phil says
I don’t know that Dan brown thinks his version is fact. I’d be surprised that he believe any of the Noah story. Keep in mind that the bible is the claim, not the proof.
wildjew says
Why is “portraying” a prophet against Islam? Was Noah a prophet?
Fr. Basil says
I don’t intend to see the movie NOAH.
Not because I object to a Biblical story portrayed on film, but I’ve discovered that most of them are crashing bores. Notable exception: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
Mr. Dude says
“It’s only a movie. The participants are not real, they are actors.”
Yes, it’s only a fairy tale. The participants are not real, they are just myths.
But at least Russel Crowe and Hermione really exist, unlike Noah – who is still wondering how to get the kangaroos from Australia, and then back to Australia from the Middle East…..he’s still hasn’t figured out how he’s supposed to do that. Noah is also stumped by “won’t a big flood give the FISH exactly what they want – how the heck does more water kill all the FISH like my invisible friend said it will!?”
Angemon says
“Al Azhar says it violates Islam”
But, but, but, on the other topic, Isa assured us his imam had a degree from Al Azhar and he said he had no problem with the film:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/egypt-muslim-scholars-call-for-destruction-of-theatres-showing-noah-movie/comment-page-1#comment-1017807
I guess his imam was not the best student in his class, right? That, or he committed bid’ah. In any case, he better watch his back, he’s endorsing something his university said it violates islam, so he might be branded a hypocrite or apostate and have his life endangered.
D S Dunlap says
Why should we give a damn about what “violates Islam?”
It’s a bastardization of Jewish Talmudic writings (which are NOT canon like th Torah), twisted Bible stories, and corruptions of pre-islamic Arabian polytheism.
As for Catholicism… well, I’ll keep my view on THAT to myself, as Catholicism vis-a-vis Bible-based Christian faith is NOT on topic.
Angemon says
Whether we should or not give a damn about what violates islam is irrelevant to the point i was making. On the other topic regarding the banning of the Noah film we had Isa assuring us that his imam had a degree from Al Azhar and he said he had no problem with the film. But now we have a news article stating that Al Azhar says it violates Islam. Either Isa’s imam knows nothing about islam (not even the views held by the university he supposedly graduated from) or Isa simply lied. In either case, Isa has proven to be as reliable as a chocolate teapot.
Tayloch says
Wow! Absolutely stunning ignorance. It is unislamic to portray:
1. Prophets
2. Messengers
3. Apostles
(Note that M’mad is ALL THREE of these in the KKKorant)
4. Family of the “Profit”
5. Companions of the “Profit”
And the twenty-three gazillion other reasons…Get your notepads outs, boys and girls.
What a sick, sick cult.
Nonbeliever says
The movie’s based on stupid Bible stories that offend me, but I’m not calling for it to be banned. Here we vote with our $$, so I’ll just not be going. It’s that simple!
Can we ban Qatar, Bahrain and UAE while we’re at it, anyway?
doreva says
Actually, it’s not based on “bible stories”…the story in the bible (doesn’t matter if one takes it as a fable or as truth, either way, it is still a story as written) is that “God” was unhappy with the people because they were being disobedient to his way in how they lived, such as fornicators, gamblers, adulterers, murderers, liars, cheaters, practicers of sorcery and so on and so forth (doesn’t matter if someone thinks its all b.s., this is what is recorded in the story, that “God” was displeased with them for these reasons). The Hollywood version of “Noah” is quite inaccurate, the only bible story it’s based on is that there was a flood and noah built and ark, but the rest of the story as to “why” is politically correct bowdlerized version of a classic myth (the Noah flood story). in the hollywood “Noah” the reason for the flood is because people were not taking care of nature properly, that is, it is a take on the “global warming” theory … just to keep the record straight, they may be “stupid bible stories” but none of them advances the idea that “human caused global warming” is the reason “God” is angry. so be offended, yes, but also be offended at bowdlerization of a classic book of mythology (do the stories of Zeus and THor offend you?).
Angemon says
Just for the sake of completeness, the islamic version of Noah has Noah telling his people to abandon idolatry and start worshipping allah. He’s not acknowledged as a prophet, he’s vilified, rebuked and mocked and because of that allah sends down a flood as punishment. Suspiciously similar to muhammad’s story, except that muhammad was rebuked and mocked because he insulted his people’s gods and ancestors. Also, muhammad wasn’t vilified, those nasty stories regarding him (child molestation, degradation of women, rape, robbery, murder, demonic possession, suicidal tendencies, cross-dressing, etc) are true and confirmed by islamic sources.
Wellington says
Stupid Bible stories, Nonbeliever? May I suggest something that’s really stupid. Here it is: Offending allies in a fight against a common enemy. The allies here for nonbelievers like yourself and me would be Christians and religious Jews and the enemy would be Islam and its control-freak, liberty crushing, designs for all the world.
Your turn. I’m waitin’.
Champ says
Thank you for your kind and considerate words, Wellington!
Wellington says
Thank you, Champ. Hope you’re doing well, my friend.
thomas_h says
Thanks for your response to the unbelievably stupid Unbeliever.
Take care, my friend.
thomas_h says
I wrote “unbelievably stupid Unbeliever” and I am not happy about it.
“Unbelievably stupid comment from Unbeliever” would have been a more acceptable form. I apologize to Unbeliever.
Charli Main says
Nicely done Thomas-h. You appear to be a true gentleman.
Posting is for people to express their personal opinions and view points.
Some people will agree with those opinions, others won´t and are free to present a counter argument. Its called democracy.
Being abusive to another poster, at a personal level, is called ignorant.
RESPECT.!!!
thomas_h says
Thank you, Charli Main.
mortimer says
Criticizing Russel Crowe is fightin’ words.
D S Dunlap says
Understand that there are folks who comment simpy for the sake of trolling and riling people up.
Whether you’re a Christian with a personal relationship with Yahweh/Yeshua, a Jew awaiting Hamaschiach (sp?), a Catholic who views the Papacy as the successors to the Apostle Peter (Shimon; Simon of Galilee), a Hindu who believes in many gods, a Buddhist, animist from Africa or the Americas or Australia/New Zealand or Central Asia, or even a thoroughly unbelieving atheist is NOT what currently matters in this war. What DOES matter is that we all recognize the primary threat to the very idea of free will, freedom, liberty, and justice. That threat is MOHAMMEDANISM (Islam, to be politically correct about it).
It has been ravaging the world for 14 centuries, turning many of the fairest and most productive regions of the planet into intellectual, physical, and moral wastelands. It has been the greatest promoter of racism, anti-Judaicism, rapine, inbreeding, pederasty, perpetual warfare, and other such evils in the history of mankind.
As a great American said, “We must either learn to live together as brothers, or die together as fools.”
Another great American said, “We must now all hang together; for if we do not, we shall surely all hang separately.”
The first, by the way, was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
The second was Benjamin Franklin.
Kepha says
OK, Wellington–whom I truly respect. I’m actually pretty thick-skinned about the post-18ith century endarkened ones myself. But I freely admit to throwing a few of my own verbal grenades at the worshipers of the Muses and Moloch–oops, science and the state–myself, and sometime find excuses to do so here. I’ll try to behave myself.
Champ says
Well all I’ve got to say is that I can’t WAIT to see this movie!!!! …*especially* if it violates islam, pfft!!!
Wellington says
And think what your more “enthusiastic” Muslims would like to do with the Sistine Chapel. Not just some prophet there is depicted but, Allah forbid, God Himself. A huge corpus of Christian art depicts God and numerous prophets (though thankfully never Mohammed unless he be in Hell).
Islam is an inveterate opponent of freedom. A subset by default of this particular Islamic deficiency is that Mo’s creed is an enemy of a great deal of Christian art. Literature too. For example, think Dante here and where he (appropriately I would argue) assigned Mohammed. Hmmm, I wonder what Bishop McManus would have to say about all this or the powers that be at Georgetown or, for that matter, the present Pope.
doreva says
this “only one god” thing is quite philosophically deceptive actually…in fact when people say that islam and christianity are “the same” because they both are “Monotheistic” and so on, same god with different names, actually that is quite inaccurate. The judeo christian “god” commanded “thou shalt have no other gods before me”, clearly indicating he knew very well there were “other gods”, he just insists that jews and christians do not worship any other gods but him . so he’s a rational god as he acknowledges the world around us where we can see there are other gods…from my understanding however the god “allah” demands of believers that they assert “there is no god but allah” which is clearly contrary to all that we can see for obviously there are many other gods of various and sundry types. so islam demands that believers decieve themselves by asserting something which is clearly not true. oh well, there’s also the atheist argument that there is no god or gods at all, but we’re talking metaphors here and in particular, metaphors which have a big effect on people.
Kepha says
Maybe it’s a rational world because it was made through the agency of the Divine Logos (see John 1)?
Wellington says
I essentially agree with you, doreva, but the salient point here is that Muslims think that their deity is the Judeo-Christian one except better refined and better understood by that paragon of excellence and understanding, that Perfect Man, i.e., the Pedophile Mohammed.
In any case, Islamic theology does not allow for something like the Sistine Chapel. It is, of course, another narrow-minded and stupid position taken by Islam but non-Muslims who appreciate the great legacy of Christian art should prepare accordingly.
Transmaster says
Just imagine what these jihad barbarians would do if they restored Sistine Chapel’s frescoes as they where when Michelangelo finished them totally nude. Add to that it is thought that Michelangelo was gay and you have a ticket to gigantic Allah Akbombing
Defcon 4 says
I know Turkish muslimes destroyed and desecrated the Assyrian and Armenian churches left behind after the muslimes depopulated their villages and towns during the Armenian Genocide in the early 20th century.
Transmaster says
Keep thinking how the world would be different if Byzantine diplomats had used assassination instead of bribery to handle the early Islamic barbarians coming out of Medina, and Mecca.
Defcon 4 says
Dr. Bill Warner has an interesting theory in which he proposes the reason islam had little problems w/Byzantium or the Persian Empire is that both had been decimated by wars between each other.
richard Sherman says
The people in these countries revere a sociopath named MUHAMMAD WHO PERSONALLY DECAPITATED 900 UNARMED JEWS in 627…yet they are worried about a movie ….how do you defame a sociopath who named MUHAMMAD who PERSONALLY decapitated 900 UNARMED JEWS?…MURDEROUS son of a bitch?….probably need something a little stronger..
Transmaster says
If the Chinese continue to have problems with Xinjiang Jihadist you might just see just such a movie from China.
Kepha Hor says
I don’t know if I’ll see the Noah film, either. I don’t really trust Hollywood to do justice to the Bible. When trying to be pious, the movie people tend to get awfully smarmy; and when trying to offer the Here’s-the-real-story,-folks perspective, they fall somewhere between blasphemy and idiocy.
As for the Copts getting the Egyptian government to ban _The Da Vinci Code_, while I’m not fan of censorship and book-banning (or burning), I can sympathize with them. I thought the book was atrocious, written in a sort of ga-ga adolescent manner, and the idea it stole from some earlier pseudo-historians I put on a level with the Aliens-taught-the-Ancients-Math sort of folly.
I know I’m being prejudiced. But please chalk it up to the twice bitten, thrice shy mentality (I’m admitting that while I may be slow on the uptake, at the end of the day I’m still a learner).
Now, if the only thing about Islam was its unwillingness to view Gospel-according-to-Hollywood films, I’d have no trouble with it. It’s just that it loves violence too much.
JIMJFOX says
I don’t really trust Hollywood to do justice to the Bible
they fall somewhere between blasphemy and idiocy
Hmmm… ‘justice’ to the book that regurgitates iron age tribal myths as miraculous events?
And apparently you believe in ‘blasphemy’, too. You have that in common with Islam. Congratulations on criticising whilst also supporting what you criticise, a neat religious perspective.
Defcon 4 says
What bothers me isn’t so much the criticism of Judaism and Christianity (and the Church of Latter Day Saints), but the fact that the criticism is frequently infantile and banal, while the criticism of islam is non-existent. It’s like criticising someone for making a bad Gin and Tonic while someone is getting murdered in the next room.
Kepha says
Jim Foxx:
Your reference to iron age tribal myths shows that you are a closet anti-Semite and Christianphobe.
I’ll do you one better: I respect the stuff that comes from the Bronze Age, too, for it seems that the Israelites didn’t have iron forging for themselves until after David sojourned among the Philistines (it’s there in First Samuel). Come to think of it, Samuel’s warning about what a king might do to the people (one of the germs of our own doctrine of political compact, BTW) is a “Bronze Age Myth”. So, we’re to throw out our whole idea of political compact simply because it’s based on something “pre-scientific”?
And, given that 20th century Evolutionary Materialists in a hurry have massacred more people in the names of “social justice” and “progress” than all the heretics who died during the 15 centuries between the conversion of Constantine and Napoleon shutting down the Spanish Inquisition, maybe our modern “scientific” worldview needs a little bit of criticism, too.
And, yes, Defcon also got it when he noted how much criticism of the Bible is infantile and banal.
No Fear says
So it is “un Islamic” to depict any prophet…. but it OK to follow the “excellent example” of Mohammed and marry one’s cousin and produce a genetically defective child and then name the child ……Mohammed.
Islam……not making any sense at all for the past 1400 years.
Descendantofacrusader says
It’s getting rather difficult these days to avoid all the outlandish fez-topped men and their garbage sack-clad women. I personally rather look forward to seeing a movie where I can be assured that I won’t be plagued with their visual and spiritual nastiness because Muslims are once again offended.
D S Dunlap says
You know, whenever I read or hear or see a Mohammedan making comments about how this or that offends “Islam” and people should stop offending “Islam,” I feel like doing the following to them:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/catch-all/blazing-saddles-shovel.jpg
Maybe I shouldn’t feel this way, but it would just feel right if, every time some NON-Mohammedan dhummi apologist starts telling the rest of us we should be more tolerant of the Mohammedans’ feelings, someone were to do what Bart did to Taggart in “Blazing Saddles.”
Kepha says
Descendant:
Don’t be so sure off that. I once went up to my son’s college to check on him and took him to an Applebee’s, where I ordered BBQ ribs. The people at the next table were enjoying them, too: a group of young ladies in hijabs with the sort of complexions and facial features you see everywhere from the Maghreb to Eastern Turkistan and the Panjab, albeit speaking unaccented American English. My guess is that there will be plenty of Muslims and Muslimas exploring this “forbidden fruit”, too.
Defcon 4 says
Because they’re eating spare ribs means they’ve given up the violent, Jew hating, xenophobic, totalitarian ideology of islam?
Edward Cline says
This is true. Just because they’re eating the forbidden fruit (ribs), doesn’t mean that they don’t sanction terrorist attacks. They just keep their mouths shut (except when they’re scarfing down ribs). Silence by Muslims about terror attacks by their fellow Muslims constitutes sanction.
voegelinian says
What next? Gilgamesh — starring George Clooney in the title role, with Duane “The Rock” Johnson as Enkidu, and Beyonce as the goddess Ishtar (and an elderly Sean Connery as the immortal Utnapishtim — can’t you just hear Sean Connery say “Utnapishtim” in his thick Scottish brogue)…?
Mr. Dude says
“Utnapishtim….James Utnapishtim.”
voegelinian says
He likes his ambrosia of the gods “shaken, not stirred”…
Kepha says
OK, Voegelinian, even if your mentor calls me a Gnostic, you’ve gotten me just itching to see such a film! I’ve read the book in translation–Cuneiform Akkadian, alas, is not one of my reading languages–and think it probably would make quite a film.
Sean Connery in _Hunt for Red October_- “While we lay off their largest shi##ies and conduct Miss Aisle drills…” (my younger son, who was quite young when he first saw that film, cracked up over that one). Sincere Apologies to anyone whose English echoes Gaelic-speaking ancestors, for Uncle Kepha knows he’s got kin who’s English can cause titters, too.
voegelinian says
Very amusing Kepha.
I actually plowed through the Gilgamesh Epic in Italian, of all things. I happened to find a translation in Italian and decided what the hell, this will be a way to force me into the deep end of the pool so to speak. It was slow going, but in a way that helps to read the text more closely.
L’epopea di Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh, per due terzi divino e per un terzo umano, è un sovrano tirannico che costringe i giovani guerrieri della sua città a continui e sfiancanti esercizi, finché non incontra Enkidu, creatura selvaggia plasmata dagli dei per rispondere alle preghiere dei cittadini di Uruk.
“Gilgamesh, two-thirds divine and one-third human, was a tyrant king who compelled the warrior youths of his city to fight in interminable wars, until the day he encountered Enkidu, a wild creature fashioned by the gods in response to the entreaties of the citizens of Uruk.”
Edward Cline says
“The Al-Azhar institute, one of the region’s main Sunni Muslim authorities, said the movie, slated to open in Egypt on March 26, violated Islam by portraying a prophet.” And, which prophet might that be? There were dozens. I don’t plan to see this CGI -top-heavy “biblical epic,” but it would be nice to know which bearded guy is depicted in the film.
Godhead says
But, Noah was not a prophet!
Edward Cline says
That’s why I asked earlier: Which “prophets” are the Muslims complaining about? Noah wasn’t a prophet. So…who?
Angemon says
Noah is a prophet in islam. In fact, muslims consider him to be one of the most significant prophets of all.
Mr. Dude says
Jesus is also a prophet in Islam, like in Christianity. So is Moses. So is Noah. Joined at the hip, are Islam and Christianity. Designed by possibly well-intentioned people, but people who nonetheless were so dumb they didn’t know where the sun went at night, or that the earth was not round, or that the sun does not revolve around the earth. Can’t be inspired by God/Allah if they can’t even get basic concepts like that correct.
(No offense.)
Angemon says
“Jesus is also a prophet in Islam, like in Christianity. So is Moses. So is Noah.”
Noah is NOT a prophet in Judaism/Christianity, he’s one of the patriarchs of Judaism. If you can’t even get something that basic correct you shouldn’t be arguing about it. Unless you want to look like a total ignoramus, in which case, go for it.
Kepha says
The Petrine Epistles of the New Testament note Noah as a “preacher of righteousness”. God spoke to him without the medium of the Book, so I won’t quibble with the Muslims about Noah being a prophet (for the record, I am a Christian, and deny that Muhammad is a prophet, preacher of righteousness, or fulfillment of any prophecy in the Old or New Testaments).
Bezelel says
One could consider mohamed fulfilling prophecy IF one sees him as the False prophet to watch out for.
voegelinian says
Not only did Muslims plagiarize the Judaeo-Christian mythologoumena-cum-theologoumena, they also mangled it, distorted it, and interjected into it bizarre artifacts from extraneous lore (mostly heretical).
Thus not only is Noah (“Nuh”) a prophet according to Islam, but also Adam was a prophet too. And a few are not even found in the Bible at all. (In addition, Muslims often consider any number of these “prophets” to be also other things — Adam (“Adem”) for example was supposed to be a Prophet, Messenger, Leader, and Patriarch.)
The full list of “prophets” in Islam:
Adem (Adam)
Idris (Enoch)
Nuh (Noah)
Hud (not Paul Newman’s 1963 character, but rather their name for the Biblical “Eber”, the eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews)
Saleh
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Lut (Lot)
Isma’il (Ishmael)
Is-haq (Isaac)
Ya’qub (Jacob)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Ayyub (Job)
Shu’aib (Jethro)
Harun (Aaron)
Musa (Moses)
Dawud (David)
Sulayman (Solomon)
Ilyas (Elijah / Elias)
Al-Yasa’ (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel)
Zakariyya (Zechariah / Zecharias)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad (whom they deem to be not only a Prophet, but also a “Messenger” and “Leader of All Mankind”)
Edward Cline says
That list is almost as long as H.L. Mencken’s Graveyard of the Gods. And what did Noah “prophesize” other than lots of rain and possible flooding?
Angemon says
In islam, Noah was a prophet who was sent by allah to tell his people to stop worshipping idols and many gods and to start worshipping only allah. He was mocked and attacked for doing so, his people rejected him as a prophet and for that allah sent down a flood to punish those who rejected him as a prophet. It’s funny to notice that it was a story “revealed” to muhammad, a man who claimed to be a a prophet who was sent by god to tell his people to stop worshipping idols and many gods and to start worshipping only allah, was mocked and attacked for doing so and his people rejected him as a prophet. Quite similar stories (no personal interest there whatsoever, am i right?), but in muhammad’s case he wasn’t mocked and attacked until he started insulting, mocking and attacking his people’s gods and ancestors.
voegelinian says
I suppose “Noah’s great rainbow…” in Bob Dylan’s phrase (from his song Desolation Row) qualifies as a nice prophecy.
onisac// says
” The Hollywood Reporter states that censor boards in Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates will refuse a local release for the film”.
How is that news?? They’ve been censoring everything from movies, to diet, to even taking off the masks over the face and kings costumes.
The truth is written in free world history books. Ant of Bill Warner books. Or just read it for yourself in the Qur’an, Hadith, or Sira.
The truth is out there, but don’t turn to the middle-east for the truth. Because they are in denial.
Mr. Dude says
Thanks for exposing the JIhad, Robert.
I love them, but obviously Muslims, Christians and Jews will want to leave their faith (they have to call it a “faith” because its’ not “fact”) because their book is just a lie, as it would be impossible for the 500 year old Noah to get kangaroos, polar bears, cougars, penguins etc. to the middle east and then transport them back to where they came from.
Also, there were no black people, Asians, Indians, etc. on board, so Noah’s Ark is clearly a lie, that only gullible people believe. What an insult to those races. And since the Bible doesn’t acknowledge evolution, there’s no way those races would have “evolved” from those 8 occupants, much less in only the few thou-sand years since this supposed flood happened. Noah/Bible/Qur’an are as real as Santa Claus is. Islam is not the only Abrahamic faith that is a fairy tale.
dumbledoresarmy says
Whatever else you feel like saying about Christians, etc, please *do not* use the phrase “Abrahamic faith”, because whenever you do *you are furthering the Islamic agenda* by perpetuating the *falsehood* that Christianity and Judaism are somehow the same sort of thing as Islam.
Which they’re not. Anybody who does not have a tin ear for literature and ideas can, on comparing the Islamic texts and ‘theology’ (such as it is) with either the Jewish or the Christian materials, see quite plainly that even if Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all fictions, they are *different* fictions. Indeed, that they are antithetical to one another.
Islam only *pretends* to be kin to Christianity and Judaism, rather as a dangerous conman (indeed, a psycho murderer) might claim to be a long-lost cousin, in order to get a foot inside the door.
DON’T use the Enemy’s language.
dumbledoresarmy says
Clarification.
When I wrote “see quite plainly that even if Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all fictions, they are *different* fictions. Indeed, that they are antithetical to one another”
what I actually meant was that it is possible to see that the two *Biblical* faiths – Christianity *and* Judaism – are antithetical to Islam.
Judaism and Christianity, despite the wrongs that many Christians have historically committed against Jews, are intimately connected. They *are* related.
Islam is – despite its plagiarism and distortion of figures such as Noah – utterly alien, and not only alien but actively and intentionally hostile toward *both* Christianity *and* Judaism.
Mr. Dude says
No offense, as you seem well intended, ut the Abrahamic faiths have a lot in common:
Christianity and Islam both have Jesus as a prophet, so both believe in zombies.
All 3 are incredibly violent.
All 3 treat women as 1/2 a man.
All say to kill gays.
All believe that magic is real.
All steer people away from science.
All teach that, say, Gandhi is so terrible that he DESERVES to burn in some “hell”.
All are so arrogant that they don’t imply that their followers can/should IMPROVE their texts.
All accepted slavery.
All accepted rape.
Crusades/Inquisition/witch burning/Jihad….clearly violent and hateful towards non-believers.
None can prove that they are the one true belief system, even though at their head is allegedly the most powerful entity in the history of the Universe.
Mr. Dude says
dumbledoresarmy, I appreciate that feedback.
You wrote “Judaism and Christianity, despite the wrongs that many Christians have historically committed against Jews”. The REASON for that is that the Bible says that Jews (and other non-Christians) are basically scum. Jesus allegedly said “No one can come to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6), so Jews are hell-bound, they deserve eternal torture according to Jesus – he’s fine with Jews suffering infinitely more than any Jew could ever suffer in, say, even Aushwitz. So if a Jew would technically be treated “better” by Hitler than by Jesus, what does that say about Jesus? The Bible is the implied alternative on this web site to Islam. Alternatively, Modern Secular Humanism LOVES Jews…and Muslims, and Christians, and Hindus….and people like Robert/Pamela who stand up for human rights.
Angemon says
“Christianity and Islam both have Jesus as a prophet, so both believe in zombies.”
Wrong again. According to islam Jesus never died so he never resurrected.
Mr. Dude says
The underlying problem with all 3 Abrahamic faiths, and I do love its followers however, is that they have a silent invisible friend who lives in the sky, and when one is out of touch with reality like that one can do crazy things like shoot abortion clinic doctors, burn witches, invade oil-rich countries (and feel the invisible friend approves of that), go on crusades, torture during an inquisition, fly planes into buildings, etc….they are doing it for the invisible friend in the sky.
I admire Robert’s courage and intellect. If he gave Modern Secular Humanism as his ALTERNATIVE to Islam (instead, he just basically offers another Abrahamic faith – he’s Catholic, as the alternative to Islam) I’d admire him even more.
It’s hard to counter the flying horse in Islam with, say, the talking donkey of another Abrahamic faith. (Bible). Modern Secular Humanism is of course to evidence-based (as opposed to fear-based) to believe in JInns (Qur’an), talking snakes (Bible), unicorns (Bible), etc. The Abrahamic faiths have some good teachings (“love thy neighbor”) for sure, but the bad parts in them (slavery – which Jesus accepted in Luke 12:47-48 ) will lead more and more people away from those ancient superstitions, into a science-based belief system such as Modern Secular Humanism.
Bezelel says
Your opinion illustrates the problem that islam presents to humanity in the struggle to comprehend religious beliefs. In secular terms, as with computers, if you put garbage in you will get garbage out ! The notion that the koran is divinely inspired is garbage. The only parts of it that have a hint of meaning are the parts that were hijacked by the authors.
Imagine if you will, a person like yourself, having no reverence for the Holy Scriptures, and desiring to create their own religion from scratch. Only not completely from scratch, but counterfeiting an existing religion to lend credence to the effort. And filling in the blanks to suit themselves.
You might notice the differences where Judaism and Christianity stress self control over man’s base instincts where islam gives free reign to them.
Mr. Dude says
Yes, be both agree that Islam is evil.
Champ says
Question: “Should Christians try to evangelize atheists?”
Answer: As Christians who know the love of God and have the assurance of eternity in heaven, it’s hard to understand why anyone would want to be an atheist. But when we realize the sin nature and its strong influence on the mind and the heart, we begin to understand where the atheist is coming from. Biblically speaking, there is no such thing as an atheist. Psalm 19:1-2 tells us that the heavens declare the glory of God. We see His creative power in all that He has made. Romans 1:19-20 follows up on this idea, telling us that what may be known about God has been made plain to us through the creation, and anyone who denies this is “suppressing the truth in unrighteousness” (v. 18). Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 declare that those who deny the existence of God are fools. So the atheist is either lying or he is a fool or both. So, what is it that causes someone to deny God?
The main goal of those under the influence of the sin nature is to make himself a god, to have complete control over his life, or so he thinks. Then religion comes along with obligations, judgments, and restrictions, while atheists presume to define their own meaning and morality. They do not want to submit to God because their hearts are at “enmity against God,” and they have no desire to be subject to His Law. In fact they are incapable of doing so because their sin has blinded them to truth (Romans 8:6-7). This is why atheists spend most of their time complaining and arguing not about the scriptural proof texts, but about the “dos and don’ts.” Their natural rebelliousness detests the commandments of God. They simply hate the idea that anything—or any One—should have control over them. What they do not realize is that Satan himself is controlling them, blinding them, and preparing their souls for hell.
In terms of evangelizing atheists, we should not hold back the gospel from someone just because he or she claims to be an atheist. Do not forget that an atheist is just as lost as a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. God certainly wants us to spread the gospel (Matthew 28:19) and to defend the truths of His word (Romans 1:16).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/evangelize-atheists.html#ixzz2vUCURDgM
Champ says
Above info is for “Mr. Dude”
Angemon says
Well, mr. Dude needs all the info he can get. He claims all 3 abrahamic faiths (and let’s pretend islam is an abrahamic faith for the sake of the argument) teach “love thy neighbour” when islam in fact teaches “love thy neighbour but only if he’s a muslim”.
Mr. Dude says
One REASON that people want to become atheists is that they then don’t have to believe that magic is real (magic is NOT real.) They then don’t give their kids a book that to KILL them if they happen to be attracted to the “wrong” gender, like the 3 Abrahamic faiths all do. The Abrahamic faiths are like peas in a pod. I do love members of the Abrahamic faiths, but obviously they can all move to a better belief system where, for example, rape is not approved of, torture is not approved of, hatred of women is not approved of, etc.
Mohammad was so incredibly morally warped that he approved of rape, as Robert/Pamela have so eloquently and bravely pointed out over the years. The Bible is of course no more moral than Mohammad, as the Bible approves of rape in a whopping ten places: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Jesus COULD have spoken up enough to that his followers would be moral enough to never ever bring forward those parts of their texts, but he was not moral enough to do that (or else they would not bring those 10 verses forward every time they print their Christian texts that they give their impressionable children, obviously.)
Always teach love, never rape/torture.
Mr. Dude says
“Then religion comes along with obligations, judgments, and restrictions”….yes, to kill gays, to treat women as 1/2 a man, to kill witches, to rape captive virgins (it’s all in the texts of the Abrahamic faiths, unfortunately.) Christians/Muslims/Jews are well intended, and I love them, and want them to accept the reality that science shows us.
A read of a recent book by Richard Dawkins (he’s mellowed the last couple years, I’m glad to say) would be a suggested starting point. No talking donkeys (bible), or flying horses with human heads (Islam) in his books. Just provable science…..not ancient superstitions by people who didn’t know where the sun went at night.
Have a great day, and keep supporting Jihadwatch.
Angemon says
“I admire Robert’s courage and intellect. If he gave Modern Secular Humanism as his ALTERNATIVE to Islam (instead, he just basically offers another Abrahamic faith – he’s Catholic, as the alternative to Islam) ”
If you were talking about Sam Shamoun or David Wood you might have had a point there. From what i’ve seen from his books/debates/appearences on TV/radio shows, Robert sticks to explaining why jihadis do the things they do, shooting down grievance-mongering islamonazi-taqyyia artists and standing up for free speech and equality of rights for all people. He doesn’t go around proselytising for his religion.
voegelinian says
Good point. Another logical flaw in Mr. Dude’s pseudo-argument.
Angemon says
Yeah, mr. Dude seems hell-bent (see what i did there?) in shoving his wannabe leftist view of religion on other peoples throats while trying to pass as an atheist. He keeps hammering the same lie (all 3 abrahamic faiths are the same thing) and expects people to buy into it. Mr. Dude, if all faiths are the same how do you explain the difference in cultural and scientific development between the so called “islamic world” (a.k.a., occupied christian, jewish, zoroastrian, hindu, sikh and buddist lands) and the world build upon judaic-christian principles?
Mr. Dude says
I agree, actually.
But the obvious question occurs to any reader of JW “ok, well what belief system does Robert offer as an ALTERNATIVE?”, and him being a Christian would give one the obvious answer. He’d do well, in my opinion, to advocate Sam Harris and other awesome Modern Secular Humanists, instead of countering one Abrahamic faith with violent texts with ANOTHER Abrahamic faith with violent texts. Robert is one of the smartest/bravest people I’ve ever read, I know he is smart enough to do what I did.
Sorry, but yes, the Christian texts have far more instances of violence than even the incredibly violent Islamic texts have:
Number of Cruel or Violent Passages:
Bible 1214
Quran 527
Source: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html
Christian would do well to clean up their own texts before complaining about the Islamic texts.
Foolster says
Of course you have to define what you mean by “having violence” Do you mean they describe violence, or prescribe it? Seeing the sources they give, it’s clear that they merely take every description of violence to bolster their numbers to prove their point that Christianity is bad.
Nope, that’s not bigoted, dishonest or biased in aaaany way!
Now you seem to be making the claim, not that Christianity is bad, but Islam is worse, but that Christianity is more violent than Islam? Seriously?!
Angemon says
“But the obvious question occurs to any reader of JW “ok, well what belief system does Robert offer as an ALTERNATIVE?””
Your so called “obvious question” wouldn’t be asked by people who actually know Robert’s work. JW readers who know Robert’s work know that he defends a reformation in islam. A reformation that rejects literalism, persecution of jews and christians, mandatory warfare against non believers, etc.
“and him being a Christian would give one the obvious answer. ”
Once again, Robert is not going around telling how islam is bad and how his religion is good. Either you’re very ignorant of Robert’s work or you’re outright lying.
“Sorry, but yes, the Christian texts have far more instances of violence than even the incredibly violent Islamic texts have”
Your point being? You’ve been told before: describing violence isn’t the same as endorsing violence or mandating your followers to commit acts of violence. Even if the OT wasn’t abrogated by the NT, there’s no open ended command valid until the end of days given to jews and christians that tells them to go and kill non-jews or non-christians because of their religion. Which is exactly the command that is in the quran (9:29):
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture [Jews and Christians] – until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Fight jews and christians until they pay.
“Christian would do well to clean up their own texts before complaining about the Islamic texts.”
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you were playing devil’s advocate. But your true colours are starting to show. Whatever happened to your “all 3 abrahamic faiths are the same” speech?
Angemon says
“Number of Cruel or Violent Passages:
Bible 1214
Quran 527
Source: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html
Christian would do well to clean up their own texts before complaining about the Islamic texts.”
ROFL! Did you even read the site you linked to or just clicked on the first thing it popped up on a “which had more violent passages bible or quran”google search? Here’s what’s in your link:
“When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has more than twice that of the Bible. (8.45 vs. 3.89%).“.
voegelinian says
“… but the bad parts in them (slavery – which Jesus accepted in Luke 12:47-48 ) …”
That passage in Luke chapter 12 is Jesus speaking in terms of a parable (cf. verse 41). One wonders what else in Mr. Dude’s edifice of argumentation is flawed and faulty; likely the whole construct is being held up by incoherent cement.
Mr. Dude says
That would have been a great opportunity for Jesus to break with the Old Testament’s approval of slavery and simply say that slavery is always wrong, and that God got slavery dead wrong. Jesus didn’t do that. He accepted slavery, period. He sat on his hands while many slave owners in the Civil War used the book about Jesus to JUSTIFY slavery! If a book about you supports slavery, and your own words seem to do the same, you come down and tell people they got it wrong! Jesus didn’t because he’s either not real or approved of slavery or isn’t all powerful like they claim.
Foolster says
Your ignorance knows no bounds. OT “slavery” is not the same as the racist slavery of the south. OT “slavery” was a form of debt-payment, and a slave got released after 7 years.
The bible was also used as justification to end slavery. You really need to educate yourself. It’s clear you no very little of history or the bible.
voegelinian says
You are shifting the goalpost you put up. You claimed that passage in Luke shows Jesus “accepted” slavery. It doesn’t.
Foolster says
What the heck is up with all the sudden surge of anti-Christian/Anti-Judaism bigots here lately who make astoundingly false and foolish accusations against Christianity?
Perhaps “Mr. dude” can point out where the bible says that Jews are “basicly scum” as he claims. Also, Mr. Dude probably wants to check his facts: Jesus was a Jew, so to say that some Jews will be judged for rejecting him is anti-semetism is like saying the bible is also anti-Anglosaxon because some British will reject him! He makes it sound as if Jews are specif icily singled out when they are not (many of his followers were (surprise) Jews. His comparison of Jesus being worse than Hitler is also atrocious!
Also Mr. Dude needs to understand the bible that he criticizes better. There is no biblical justification for the inquisition or crusades. The crusades also was a military response by nations in countering hundreds of years of Islamic conquest.
Mr. Dude says
People who are so (apparently) terrible that they are denied paradise, and are relegated to the disgusting act of receiving eternal torture….uh, that’s “scum”. Jesus considers most of humanity (most people are not Christians) scum….clearly. He is not loving, then, of course, it can be argued. “Love” and “torture” don’t belong in the same sentence, now do they? Mohammad/Jesus are both uncaring about their respective non-believers. Two peas in a pod, unfortunately. Jesus/Allah COULD change the rules so that, say, a very moral person like Gandhi is not tortured worse than Hitler could ever have dreamed of torturing a Jew, but they don’t do that because it’s arguable that they are not very moral. Modern Secular Humanism loves all peoples, there is no eternal torture for simply picking the wrong super-hero. By the end of this century the Abrahamic faiths will be about as popular as Zeus is today.
Mr. Dude says
Correct, Jesus hates Hindus, Buddhist, atheists etc. just as much as he hates Jews. He won’t let us into his elitist country club in the sky, no matter how moral we (say Gandhi, Ben Franklin, Einstein etc.) may be. He’s fine with, say, Thomas Jefferson burning for eternity, while a reformed criminal, who “finds Jesus”, and repents, and does lead a virtuous life thereafter, gets into “heaven”. That’s crazy, and of course patently unfair.
Foolster says
You really need to stop. You are blatantly misrepresenting what Christianity teaches.
Yes, according to Christianity those who reject Jesus (according to Christianity the one true God) don’t go to heaven. Anyone can accept him though, it’s not some sort of exclusion or hate.
Unfair? Yes it is. We don’t deserve heaven, and nothing we do can earn it.
Mr. Dude says
“Yes, according to Christianity those who reject Jesus (according to Christianity the one true God) don’t go to heaven. Anyone can accept him though, it’s not some sort of exclusion or hate. ”
To accept Jesus (and avoid torture that Saddam would envy) I have to drop science, reason, critical thinking, evidence, and of course common sense. He’s a magic zombie….seriously.
To destroy Islam, the other abrahamic faiths might need to be destroyed as well.
Champ says
“He’s a magic zombie….seriously.”
No. Jesus Christ is LORD and the Son of God. Seriously!
Angemon says
“To accept Jesus (and avoid torture that Saddam would envy) I have to drop science, reason, critical thinking, evidence, and of course common sense.”
Try telling that to the likes of Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, William of Ockham /you know, the creator of the Occam’s razor principle), Isaac Newton, Ampere, Ronald Ross, or any of the other christian scientists, philosophers or critical thinkers.
Any other lie you’d like to have debunked Mr. “Radical-Leftist” Dude?
Mr. Dude says
Please tell us the difference between “anti-Christian/Anti-Judaism bigots” (which I assume you condemn) and “anti-Islam bigots”.
Foolster says
Ah, very clever, inferring that I’m using the same tactics to silence critics of Christianity the same way Muslims do with cries of “Islamaphobia”.
Of course the differences are I’m calling for violence against you. You are free to your opinion, and I’m free to show how you are incorrect about your assumptions and misrepresentations of Christianity.
Very clever, infering that I’m using the same tactics to silence critics of Chrisitanity the same way Muslims do with crys of “Islamaphobia”.
Of course the differences are I’m calling for violence against you. You are free to your opinion, and I’m free to show how you are incorrect about your assumptions and misrepresentations of Christianity.
The difference is the so-called “anti-islam” bigotsVery clever, infering that I’m using the same tactics to silence critics of Chrisitanity the same way Muslims do with crys of “Islamaphobia”.
Of course the differences are I’m calling for violence against you. You are free to your opinion, and I’m free to show how you are incorrect about your assumptions and misrepresentations of Christianity.
There is no real difference between true “anti-christian/Judaism” bigots and “anti-islam bigots”, they both say false things about their respective group. Of course, as you well know it is very common for the term “anti-islam bigots” to be applied to people who point out things actually wrong with Islam.
Foolster says
“Of course the differences are I’m calling for violence against you.”
oops. I meant to say of course “Of course the differences are I’m not calling for violence against you.” Sorry.
Foolster says
And of course I condemn anti-Islam bigots as well. The true ones, not ones falsely accused of being such because they point to troubling verses in the Koran and point how muslims use those verses.
Mr. Dude says
Agreed. If I just hate Christians (I don’t) then I should be condemned, but if I show an alternative to the disgusting/illogical/illegal passages in the Abrahamic faiths, then I should be applauded. Robert shows the faults of one of the Abrahamic faiths, and I applaud him for that.
richard Sherman says
Anti-Islam bigot?…Anti-Nazi bigot?…Anti KKK bigot?..Sounds pretty good…
voegelinian says
Please tell us the difference between “anti-Christian/Anti-Judaism bigots” (which I assume you condemn) and “anti-Islam bigots”.
The former tend to enable the myopia of the West that is continuing to be woefully remiss in its responsibility to protect its societies; the latter don’t exist except in numbers so marginal, they have no appreciable effect on anything.
Mr. Dude says
Foolster, in your PREVIOUS post you claimed that Biblical slavery was actually just fine. However, if it was NOT full-blown evil slavery, then the following verse in the Bible would clearly NOT allow people to get away with BEATING A SLAVE WHO DIES AFTER 3 DAYS!
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)”
I’m not sure even the evil Mohammad was this barbarous.
voegelinian says
Yes, there does seem to be a surge in those types of sentiments in JW comments over the past year. They popped up in former years now and then, but not nearly to this extent. And now what’s interesting is that the vast majority of them are couched in terms of commenters who avow that they are on our side against Islam.
Mr. Dude says
I promise that I think that Mohammad was a monster: pedophile, murderer, rapist, robber, had suicidal tendencies, genocidal maniac, etc.
Mr. Dude says
By the way, the REASON that the God of the Bible can’t prove that he EVEN EXISTS one iota more than the God of the Qur’an is because neither one is actually real. They are equally as provable. If my “god” couldn’t differentiate himself, through evidence, from Mohammad’s invisible friend, I’d consider a different belief system…but that’s just me. People are entitled to their opinions. And to their delusions.
Mr. Dude says
Champ wrote: “No. Jesus Christ is LORD and the Son of God. Seriously!”
No person who is not even smart enough to leave verifiable physical evidence of his self-proclaimed divinity deserves to be worshipped as a “god”. It’s kind of funny how NOT ONE of the tens of thousands of claimed prophets in world history has even been smart enough to leave verifiable physical evidence of his miracles/divinity. Funny that.
Jesus/Mohammad/Moses/L.RonHubbard/JosephSmith are likely just con-men (but who did indeed say some good philosophical things, however.)
Bezelel says
Evidence? Reminds me of the the fish asking,What is water? Seek and you will find. Don’t seek and you probably won’t find. Personally I’m comfortable with people not believing in God as long as their principles require civilized behavior.The truth is, Humanity doesn’t need any encouragement to act like A=holes. Jesus could have said it that way too,But he didn’t, He gave us the Golden Rule instead. That is not consistant with islam or even secular dog eat dog mentality.Oh yeah, Their is a God and you aren’t it. LOL
Mr. Dude says
If someone is afraid of death enough, they will “find” the evidence to alleviate that fear (by believing the comforting belief that there is an “afterlife” with a magic zombie up in the clouds somewhere – they never tell us where, but that’s not important when one is super afraid of death)….but it will NOT be a truth that’s backed up by objective facts and science, and every member of the Abrahamic faiths know that, I believe.
You say I’m not a god….true. But, and, uh, actually even a chimpanzee, can prove to a reasonable level, in the case of a jury-process (what modern society uses to determine the ultimate truth, as best they can) that I (and the chimp) actually exist. The all-powerful imaginary friend can not prove to a jury-level that he exists, clearly. Try saying that “god told me to do that act” (an act that is illegal), if your were accused of a crime, and that wouldn’t stand water in a jury trial, because everybody knows that people can simply LIE for their own account……just like Mohammad clearly lied about “god” for his own account….just like Moses clearly lied about “god” for his own account….just like Jesus clearly lied about his divinity” for his own account (wanted people to put him up and feed him – he was tired of being a carpenter, I think.)
Bezelel says
Actually Jesus could have avoided his crucifixion by simply denying his divinity.
http://www.staircasepress.com/proving_god_intro.php
Try some better info than you’re used to.
Mr. Dude says
Angemon wrote “Whatever happened to your “all 3 abrahamic faiths are the same” speech?”
I promise you, Angemon, that I do not believe that Islam is better than Christianity, overall. Christianity is worse than Islam in many areas, and yes, Islam is indeed worse than Christianity in many areas. They are about equal, overall….or maybe Islam is a bit worse, but not much worse. Both believe that “faith is a good thing”, so being a Christian is indirectly, in effect, empowering its fellow Abrahamic faith. If you believe in a talking donkey (remove it if you don’t believe it), then Muslims will feel more empowered to believe that, say, a magic person (a Jinn) could indeed be living in one’s nose (or other such nonsense.) See how that works?
I love everybody, so I want to help everybody.
Angemon says
You might want to rethink your “talking donkey” approach. According to islamic belief, muhammad talked with a donkey who told him that he was the last in a lineage created only for the use of prophets. Also, muhammad changed his name and asked him if he desired females. The difference with the talking donkey in the biblic tale is that in the biblic tale makes it clear that the donkey spoke because of a miracle. The islamic version makes it clear that donkeys communicate with each other in the same way humans do and that they even name their offspring and keep track of their ancestors for many generations. The miracle in the islamic account is not that allah caused an animal to speak but that Muhammad was allegedly given the ability to understand the language of the animals.
“Both believe that “faith is a good thing”, so being a Christian is indirectly, in effect, empowering its fellow Abrahamic faith.””
And there you go again, talking like christianity and islam are the same thing. Try offending a christian and a muslim. A faithful christian offers the other cheek, a faithful muslim strikes at your neck with a blade. One does not “empower the other” in any way.
“I do not believe that Islam is better than Christianity, overall. Christianity is worse than Islam in many areas, and yes, Islam is indeed worse than Christianity in many areas. They are about equal, overall….or maybe Islam is a bit worse, but not much worse. ”
That’s exactly the kind of moronic reasoning that is enabling jihadis. Tell me, if “islam and christianity are pretty much the same”, what’s the penalty for changing religions in christianity and islam? Why is there no Golden Rule in islam? How come islamic religion encompasses all aspects of life, from how to brush teeth to which hand to use to wipe your ass with? Why is it that the bible says “keep your faith to yourself” but muslims need to pray in public the middle of the street?
Mr. Dude says
“The difference with the talking donkey in the biblic tale is that in the biblic tale makes it clear that the donkey spoke because of a miracle.”
Ahhhhhhhh, so THAT makes talking donkeys more believable!
I believe you want to find the truth in life, so could I suggest that you watch a bunch of Richard Dawkins videos, and then you’ll know the proper way to think about evidence: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22richard%20dawkins%22&sm=3
If a person is gullible enough to believe that talking donkeys are actually real, then they’ll unfortunately believe anything (such as “believe in this one particular invisible friend or this all-loving invisible friend will see that you burn forever….but remember, he loves you!”)
Angemon says
Also, i’ve told you before: islam is not a abrahamic faith. It claims to be, but other than preaching monotheism (given the satanic verses and the worship of muhammad, even that’s debatable) and some similar character names (their stories in the quran don’t match the jewish/christian accounts) it has little to no similarities with judaism/christianity. So stop trying to push the “all 3 abrahamic faiths are the same crap”.
No, wait, keep pushing it, but do so in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Pakistan. Choose one of those countries, learn how to say “christianity, judaism and isam are all the same thing and are all just as bad” on its language, travel there and start shouting that at the top of your lungs. Let us know how that turned out for you.
Mr. Dude says
Yes, you are correct about the evils of Islam.
So please tell us, which is worse, A or B?
A. Getting a long prison sentence for just standing on a street corner in Saudi Arabia handing out Bibles, like the Saudi King would punish you for.
Or
B. Burning for eternity for honestly picking the wrong super-hero, even though said super-hero refused to give jury-level of proof of his existence, like Jesus will see happens to me (allegedly)
So which is worse, the Saudi King, or Jesus? Please tell us.
Angemon says
And here’s mr. Dude’s dishonesty again. On more than one level. Firstly, preaching other religions under sharia is punishable by death. Secondly, if you want to compare what christians believe it happens in the afterlife then you need to compare it to what muslims believe it happens to non-muslims in the afterlife. So, what happens? The fire burns their skins, changing their colour to black due to its intensity. They will eat the fruits of the Zaqqum tree, which are similar to eating molten brass that will boil their insides like scalding water. They will drink boiling water that will cut their bowels when they consume it. If they call for relief, they shall be given water described to be like molten brass, which will scald their faces. Hell is also filled with venomous snakes and scorpions and if they were to bite a person, the person would suffer for 40 years. They will wear garments of fire that will scorch them.Along with the physical pain, certain sinners in hell will be mentally tortured by the guardian of hell, who will remind them of their misdeeds on earth.
Anyway, mr Dude’s reply was a sleight of hand to draw attention to the points i made about the difference of tolerance between western whose values are based in judaic/christian traditions and the islamic world. Tell us mr. Dude, if islam and christianity are so similar as you claim, how do you account for that difference?
Angemon says
JUst a small correction to my previous post. Where it reads “Anyway, mr Dude’s reply was a sleight of hand to draw attention to the points” it should read “Anyway, mr Dude’s reply was a sleight of hand to draw attention away from the points“
Mr. Dude says
You are correct in thinking that Islam has a number of things that are worse than its fellow Abrahamic faith (they are often “peas in a pod”, but of course not always.)
But the Bible has more contradictions, in total, than the Qur’an has. They both have a ton.
Both have followers who are, apparently, too scared of their invisible friend to muster the moral courage to change those texts to be far more moral. Modern Secular Humanism does not suffer from that problem, however (thank god….no, wait…)
voegelinian says
I do not believe that Islam is better than Christianity, overall. Christianity is worse than Islam in many areas, and yes, Islam is indeed worse than Christianity in many areas. They are about equal, overall….or maybe Islam is a bit worse, but not much worse…
I’ve never seen a finer crystallization of the disease of Equivalencism. Let us hope that inquisador and RodSerling and some other lurking atheists don’t agree and would express their disagreement by recoiling a thousand degrees away from it.
Mr. Dude says
“Muhammad (whom they deem to be not only a Prophet, but also a “Messenger” and “Leader of All Mankind”)”
I wouldn’t expect a “Leader of all mankind” to be a pedo, like Mo was. Clearly the Qur’an is not from some “god”. Like all religions, just a figment of a very fertile imagination. Mohammad, Moses, Buddha, Jesus were are very creative, with very fertile imaginations. They of course couldn’t prove that they were divine or had supernatural knowledge, to an evidence-based thinking person of today, but they did utter some good things, like Buddha who said to treat others as you’d treat yourself (many centuries before Jesus said it.)
Good philosophers, failed divine prophets.
Mr. Dude says
Foolster wrote “Your ignorance knows no bounds. OT “slavery” is not the same as the racist slavery of the south. OT “slavery” was a form of debt-payment, and a slave got released after 7 years. ”
Foolster my friend, just listen to yourself! Your fear of Jesus (“hell” for not being a Christian) has reduced to you DEFENDING SLAVERY! SLAVERY! i know you are better than this. Mohammad defended slavery, and I believe you are much better than Mohammad. It’s ok to admit that the Bible got a lot of things wrong. When I did this I took my first steps towards being a Modern Secular Humanist.
Foolster says
Yes, I’m defending OT “slavery” (i.e indentured servitude) which, as I pointed out is most certainly different than what most people think of when they use the word “slavery” today (i.e. racist slavery of the south) which I do not defend. If you can’t tell the difference between A and B, that’s not my fault.
Bezelel says
http://thegodguy.wordpress.com/
Here is a link for you, He also has facebook page where you can debate the existence of God. A very well mannered person too. My feelings are that God doesn’t need your permission to exist,and if he chooses to reveal himself to you,he will.BTW I’ve been told is acceptable to say to God “If you are real,will you please let me know?” You can take that as a dare.
Mr. Dude says
You wrote “if he chooses to reveal himself to you,he will.”
If he’s MORAL, and gives a rat’s behind about people, because he wants to keep us non-believers from going to the alleged “hell” then of course he’d reveal himself to us. He won’t, and bigfoot won’t, and Yeti won’t….all for the same reason.
Mr. Dude says
Angemon, don’t you agree with me that any belief system that prescribes punishment remotely similar/harsh to the following that you wrote is one hateful belief system?
“The fire burns their skins, changing their colour to black due to its intensity. They will eat the fruits of the Zaqqum tree, which are similar to eating molten brass that will boil their insides like scalding water. They will drink boiling water that will cut their bowels when they consume it. If they call for relief, they shall be given water described to be like molten brass, which will scald their faces. Hell is also filled with venomous snakes and scorpions and if they were to bite a person, the person would suffer for 40 years. They will wear garments of fire that will scorch them.Along with the physical pain, certain sinners in hell will be mentally tortured by the guardian of hell, who will remind them of their misdeeds on earth.”
Angemon says
What we’ve been seeing from mr. Dude is a series of strawmen who reveal his intellectual dishonesty and lack of will to debate things the way they are. I clearly stated that i have issues with his statement that “islam and christianity are basically the same thing”, and i gave him enough things to question that statement. Instead, he sets up strawmens, preferring to misrepresent my point and trying to draw the argument away from it. On this previous post he tried comparing the physical punishment he’d get for preaching his opinion on SA with what christians believe will happen to non-christians in the afterlife. SO i pointed out that if he really wanted to discuss things he should compare the christian hell with the muslim hell and, since he seems to know nothing about islam, i described it for him. Now he’s trying to avoid answering my point by insinuating that i somehow consider the system who prescribes the punishment i described as somehow being benign.
My point still stands: if, like you claim, islam and christianity are the same thing, how do you explain the difference in tolerance and acceptance of others in the western world built upon judaic-christian fundaments and the islamic world (a.k.a, occupied christian lands) built upon islamic fundaments (not to mention the difference in scientific advancement) ?
Mr. Dude says
I didn’t say that Islam did not have a hell, I just pointed out that Jesus is more evil in his illogical punishments than the Saudi king actually is. Please re-read that post. Thanks.
Mr. Dude says
I’m afraid you didn’t answer….is A or B worse?
As a Modern Secular Humanist I can say that “B” (Jesus) is far worse than the Saudi king in that one example. That would likely show that Jesus is not all-loving as advertised. So if I advocated Jesus as all-wonderful, and Mohammad as all-evil, I might be hypocritical. Just an opinion, however.
I try to be as clear and accurate as Robert is, but I sometimes fail in achieving that.
Angemon says
“I’m afraid you didn’t answer….is A or B worse?”
Didn’t i? I pointed out the dishonesty in your question: comparing SA’s legal code (and you pretended that preaching other religions didn’t warrant the death penalty while you were at it) with what christians believe will happen to non-christians in hell. I also pointed out your question was just a sleight of hand to draw attention to a question i made that YOU never answered: if, like you claim, christianity and islam are the same thing how do you account for the the differences of tolerance between western whose values are based in judaic/christian traditions and the islamic world?
Mr. Dude says
So do you condemn both Jesus and Mohammad for having incredibly evil punishments for not sucking up to them?
Mr. Dude says
Angemon, is it MORE A, or MORE B?
Mr. Dude says
“Other than the comments there, where does it talk of killing innocent people?”
You have a lot to learn, my friend.
There are over 1500 examples of injustice in the Bible, and a fair number of those are approval of innocent people getting killed: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html
Killing gays, that’s killing innocent people right there, off the top of my head.
Here’s even more killing of inncents (jesus was too cowardly to say his dad was wrong):
Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Angemon says
“There are over 1500 examples of injustice in the Bible”
OT or NT? Does it say that jews and christians are to emulate and apply those examples in their daily lives the same way muslims are to treat non-muslims as third-class semi slaves?
You know, for someone who claims to be an atheist you sure seem religiously bent on attacking just christianity…
Mr. Dude says
There’s a lot to “attack”, just like the other Abrahamic faiths.
Mr. Dude says
“Does it say that jews and christians are to emulate and apply those examples in their daily lives”
DOES IT SAY *NOT* TOO!?
David is a hero in the Bible, no? David slaughters thousands of people because he heard voices in his head (“god”, or whatever) and the Bible/Jesus never apologize for the slaughter.
These atrocities are committed by the heroes of the Bible (many are, but not all) so obviously the Bible (and Qur’an/Torah) are poor role models for our children (if we care about them, that is.)
Angemon says
Once again, you’re being either incredibly ignorant or outright dishonest. And you’re past the point where ignorance is an excuse for your misinformed comments. For someone who talks about logic, reason, common sense, evidence, and critical thinking you seem to lack all of those qualities. In a nutshell, you’re saying that the bible is a bad example for children because some characters committed atrocities, but you fail to point out that the atrocities were in a specific point in time for a specific set of reasons. Mainly, during fights against oppressing people. You conveniently leave out that not only violence in the OT is descriptive and not mandatory or an example to follow but also that the NT abrogated the violence and laws in the OT with “love thy neighbour”, “keep your religion to thyself” and the Golden Rule.
Also, why are you hellbent on attacking christianity alone? So much for your “all religions are the same” excuse…
Daniel says
All of David’s wars were defensive, but even though he was fighting from necessity and fighting against people who were idolatrous and hated Israel (the people of God), God said to him, “You have shed much blood and have waged great wars. You shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood before me on the earth.” Jesus never needed to say anything about it God already did in the Old Testament (1 Chron. 22:8). Even defensive warfare is not lauded in the Bible, while also not prohibited.
Mr. Dude says
“And that’s the part where you show your ignorance. Christians consider that the NT abrogated the [OT, you meant to write]. ”
Angemon, if the OT is so wrong then of course the Bible would not contain the OT. Just like the Bible does not contain this part, which I assume that Christians believe is also wrong: “the young Jesus had killed at least three people, two children and one adult teacher. ” This is from the infancy gospel of Thomas. So it’s possible that Jesus was a multiple-murderer. Not quite up there with Mohammad, but a killer none the less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas
But we can both AGREE that the later violent verses in the Qur’an abrogate the earlier more loving verses in the Qur’an. Mohammad got more evil as his power grew.
Just like Jesus, who was originally the Prince of Peace, but upon his later return will allegedly have a sword sticking out of his mouth:
http://thebricktestament.com/revelation/king_of_kings_goes_berzerk/rv19_11-12p15.html
….and commit slaughter in the land (sounds a lot like Mohammad):
http://thebricktestament.com/revelation/king_of_kings_goes_berzerk/rv19_21a.html
Angemon says
“ it’s possible that Jesus was a multiple-murderer. Not quite up there with Mohammad, but a killer none the less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas”
Once again, do you even read the links you post?
From your Wikipedia link:
“The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a pseudepigraphical gospel about the childhood of Jesus that is believed to date to the 2nd century. It was part of a popular genre of biblical work, written to satisfy a hunger among early Christians for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided.” (my emphasis)
So, what is a pseudepigraphical work? Well, it’s a falsely attributed work whose claimed author is represented by a separate author, or a work whose real author attributed it to a figure of the past. If you need to resort to outside works and try to use them as biblical canon you’re either incredibly stupid or you’re being dishonest on purpose.
“Jesus, who was originally the Prince of Peace, but upon his later return will allegedly have a sword sticking out of his mouth:
http://thebricktestament.com/revelation/king_of_kings_goes_berzerk/rv19_11-12p15.html”
According to orthodox christian teachings, the sword represents the “sword of the Spirit”. In other words, the “Words of God”.
Mr. Dude says
Too bad that Jesus would let people, maybe, possibly, think that he’s a murderer. If YOU we accused of murder, would you clear it all up, or would you leave doubt in people’s minds? I think you’re better than Jesus. I know what *I* would do.
Angemon says
“Too bad that Jesus would let people, maybe, possibly, think that he’s a murderer.”
He didn’t. Your ignorance isn’t the same as him being dubious about it. The fact that you need to resort to a pseudepigraphical work to claim he’s a murderer is proof enough. Once again, despite your “christianity and islam are the same thing” claim you’re focusing on christianity and giving islam a free pass. Jesus never killed anyone, muhammad killed dozens by his own hand and had his followers rape, kill and enslave thousands more. But hey, according to you, they’re pretty much the same, right?
Mr. Dude says
“So, according to your logic you’re trying to use, the NT doesn’t exist. After all, it’s an addition to the OT. Funny how you need to resort to OT examples to “prove” your points when the NT abrogates the OT. ”
Angemon, are you and/or your family smart enough to come up with an improvement to the verses in the bible that say to KILL gays and that women are worth 1/2 a man? I know I am. How about you?
Angemon says
So, where did Jesus instructed his followers to kill gays? As for the “women are worth 1/2 of a man” comment, i’ve replied to that before. I suggest you look it up.
Mr. Dude says
Come on, expect MORE from the “all-knowing, all-loving, creator of the world”. If the most popular book of all time, which gave rise to a belief system with your name in the title, contained multiple verses, inspired by your dad no less, to KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE (gays), if you were moral, and claimed to be a moral teacher, you’d obviously speak up – over 2000 years. Obviously. Only a fool would not. Or someone who wasn’t moral. Or someone who wasn’t divine/all-loving as advertised.
Angemon says
Once again, where in the NT does Jesus say to kill gays? “Love thy neighbor”, Golden rule and stuff. You choosing to ignore it doesn’t make it non-existent.
Mr. Dude says
Being moral isn’t that hard, really. Just endorse things that are what’s best for the world, (treating gays equally) and speak out against things that are not what’s best for the world (killing gays).
Can you do that?
Edward Cline says
I’m out of here. This discussion is filling up my email in-box, and I don’t see an end to it.
Angemon says
Of course i can. Hence why i can tell the difference between islam and christianity. One tells its followers to kill non-believers, another tells its followers to love their neighbours. Guess which one is better for the world? (hint, hint, the one whose teachings were not responsible for 9/11).
Mr. Dude says
If, repeat if, just hypothetically speaking (we’ll never know, since Jesus is so shy), Jesus did endorse the killing of innocent gays, just for argument’s sake would you strongly condemn him for that one thing?
As a moral Modern Secular Humanist I of course reply “yes” to that hypothetical. This is a good moral test for all people to take. I’m glad I passed. Dawkins/Harris would pass. Mohammad would not, as he said to kill gays.
Angemon says
We’ve been through this before, and my question remains unanswered. Where does Jesus mandates the killing of homosexuals?
Mr. Dude says
“According to orthodox christian teachings, the sword represents the “sword of the Spirit”. In other words, the “Words of God”.”
Too bad Allah and Jesus don’t care about us enough to simply, in the last 14+ centuries or more, CLARIFY all this for us. I of course would, if I had those super-powers, because I care about humanity, but Allah/Jesus don’t do that. Bigfoot doesn’t clarify his stance on the issues either….hmmmmmmmmmm.
Angemon says
Like i said, according to orthodox christian teachings, the sword represents the “sword of the Spirit”. In other words, the “Words of God”. If you’re still not clarified enough i suggest you inform yourself. As for the Bigfoot comparision comment, clearly you (wrongly) assume i’m a christian and you’re trying to rile me up. Not going to work, but please, keep trying. It reveals more about your character than what you’d like people to know.
Also, my question remains unanswered: if, like you claim, christianity and islam are pretty much the same thing, how do you account for the difference in tolerance of other religions, human rights and scientific development between the western world, built upon judaic-christian values and the islamic world (a.k.a, occupied christian lands)?
Mr. Dude says
Tolerance of other religions, you ask? Wow. Just wow. Jesus will see that moral Gandhi burns, and burns some more, and burns even more, just because, get this, Gandhi wasn’t a Christian. Jesus didn’t understand the word “tolerance”. Modern Secular Humanists like Dawkins/Harris would of course not hurt Gandhi for being a Hindu and not following them, in fact, they’d let him into their “paradise” (if they were “god”) and try to LEARN from Gandhi….just think of all the great things we could learn if Gandhi was teaching people in paradise, and not suffering eternal torment for making the honest mistake of picking the wrong super-hero (because the super-here withheld proof of his existence that he of course could give by simply snapping his all-powerful fingers.) Dawkins is far more moral than the Abrahamic faiths are.
Angemon says
You’re not answering my question: if, like you claim, christianity and islam are pretty much the same thing, how do you account for the difference in tolerance of other religions, human rights and scientific development between the western world, built upon judaic-christian values and the islamic world (a.k.a, occupied christian lands)?
abey says
Gandhi (a stooge of the British) does influence the modern society even his “Sodomic” inclination, typical of Freemasonry , where such are made into gods. For there is what is known as a rainbow painting of QE 1, holding a fiddle hole pipe , so happens it denotes todays “Sodomic Adendas” by the “sign of the colors” corrupted/ twisted out from the ‘Bow of God”. Well, this queen of modern freemasonry(established at her time), masonry itself by its corruptions come of that ‘Ole Iniquity” off the satanic attributes spoken by God unto the ‘Prince of Tyre” . Now his spiritual daughter adored/worshipped by the many ignorant, was last seen in the spirit moving about on all four as a demon cursing & swearing around her grave in westminister abbey/. wherein are buried the royals. All but denoting the kingdoms of this world that sits against the Kingdom of God,
Mr. Dude says
“We’ve been through this before, and my question remains unanswered. Where does Jesus mandates the killing of homosexuals?”
Sometimes silence can be almost as telling as words.
I’m not aware of him saying to kill gays, but according to the book about him, and he’s never spoken a word to the contrary, gays do not make it into his supremacist country club in the sky. Sorry Elton, sorry Ellen D., sorry Ellen P., sorry Rock Hudson, I apologize on jesus behalf for hating you for not logical reason.
Edward Cline says
Does anyone here know of a way to uncheck “Notify me of follow-up comments” on this subject? I’m getting tired of getting these comments because these guys just can’t give it a rest.
Angemon says
“I’m not aware of him saying to kill gays”
So Jesus is the example that christians are supposed to follow, and you claim you’re not aware of him saying to kill gays. And yet, you claim christianity approves the killing of gays. Nice logic you have going on there.
Also, since you keep bringing Gandhi up (and Gandhi borrowed borrowed christian ideals like equality, brotherhood of man, and turning the other cheek), try reading about his relationship with islam and how that turned out. (hint: it failed and the results were disastrous, both for hindus and muslims).
abey says
Jesus warned “Remember Lot’s wife ” but to the Complacency of the sin of Sodom , for she turned her head due a soft corner for Sodom. Hate the sin, for it waits at the door step to be taken & its wages are death, is the truth . So look before you leap, lest your Apologies be unto death itself.
Mr. Dude says
Angemon, you can’t answer this question, can you?
“If, repeat if, just hypothetically speaking (we’ll never know, since Jesus is so shy), Jesus did endorse the killing of innocent gays, just for argument’s sake would you strongly condemn him for that one thing?”
So let me answer it for you (if I may): “I won’t answer this question because I won’t like the honest answer I’d give if I was honest with myself. I fear someone’s invisible friend”.
Angemon, there’s no logical reason to fear Mohammad’s invisible friend, or a Greek’s invisible friend (Zeus), or Matthew’s invisible friend.
Angemon says
If you’re so eager to know, i’d condemn Jesus the same way i’d condemn anyone who called for the persecution and/or killing of homosexuals. BTW, homosexuality is punishable by death in the islamic world. Care to try to guess why?
Champ says
Angemon, why waste time with this hater Mr. Dude? Not only that he’s a fool, and arguing with such a person is futile
Angemon says
Judging by what he did on another topic (he went there claiming i didn’t answer a question he made here, even though i answered it) he’s reaching boiling point. It shouldn’t take long now until we see a “LOL I TROLL U!!!” meltdown speech.
Mr. Dude says
“According to orthodox christian teachings, the sword represents the “sword of the Spirit”. In other words, the “Words of God”. – Angemon
So the sword sticking out of his mouth is just a metaphor, then, eh? So then something equally as hard to believe, such as the “resurrection”, is also a METAPHOR, as well, to be consistent, right?
jerryj26 says
Here’s a Bollywood release with the name of thier god in it. Wonder if it’s against islam as well. Guess they missed this one that’s fully available on YouTube – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1292642/combined
abey says
The film itself is twisted out of context to some Enviormentalism & it seems Russel Crowe is cut out for such twisted movies , like his earlier one ‘Gladiator’ a historical Roman story twisted out for popularity sake, eyeing the green bucks-their god, for which god these will stop at nothing, the basis of all the woods out of the hoods & its theme again from the Biblical misundertanding that the Angels who kept not their first Estate mixed Physically with earthly women, when their interference was spiritual & not physical, to a whole Industry made out of this delusion, for the world lives with many a lies, like unto Antony Hopkins everything about & around him is written- Freemasonry