“According to initial police investigations… the attackers used knives to stab people at the station exit, and detonated explosives at the same time.” Imagine the horror. News reports, however, will almost certainly center on whether the Chinese claims that they face a terrorist threat are credible, and on the legitimate grievances of the Uighurs suffering under Chinese repression, and on the dangers of “Islamophobia.”
“Deadly China blast at Xinjiang railway station,” BBC, April 30 (thanks to all who sent this in):
Security personnel gather near the scene of an explosion outside the Urumqi South Railway Station in Urumqi in northwest China’s Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region on 30 April 2014 Security was tight outside the station following the explosion
A bomb and knife attack at a railway station in China’s western Xinjiang region has killed three and injured 79 others, officials and state media say.
The attackers used explosives and knives at Urumqi’s south railway station on Wednesday, officials said.
The local government described it as a “violent terrorist attack” but said the situation was now under control.
China’s President Xi Jinping, who has just visited the region, has promised to step up “anti-terrorism” efforts.
President Xi urged “‘decisive actions’ against violent terrorist attacks” following the incident, Xinhua news agency said.
Verifying reports from the region is difficult because the flow of information out of Xinjiang is tightly controlled.
Xinjiang has seen a series of violent attacks in the past year. Beijing blames the violence on separatists from the mainly Muslim Uighur minority.
‘Debris and suitcases’
“At around 19:10 on 30 April, an explosion happened at the passenger exit of Urumqi South Station when Train K453 from Chengdu to Urumqi arrived at the station, causing casualties,” Xinjiang’s local government news portal said.
“According to initial police investigations… the attackers used knives to stab people at the station exit, and detonated explosives at the same time,” it said, adding that all the injured were receiving medical treatment.
Witnesses told Xinhua news agency that the explosion appeared to be centred around luggage left on the ground between a station exit and a bus stop….
citycat says
The world is sick in the head.
“separatists from the mainly Muslim Uighur minority”
I thought China would have more suss than that.
It is one of Islam’s tentacles that is not separate from Islam, or else there is one mother of a series of coincidences plaguing Earth, and it is nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.
Mazo says
People like you would like nothing better than to play “split the camp” between people of China, and spread distrust, hate, and fear between Muslims like the Hui, Salar, Dongxiang, and the Han and other ethnic groups in China, by reporting on Uyghur terrorist attacks and blaming them on Islam.
I have news for you – its not going to work, the Chinese authorities don’t listen to American bloggers and people who are pushing political agendas which have nothing to do with China’s interests, and plus most people in China, especially in northwest China, don’t speak or read English.
What is laughable is certain people in here who have never met a Muslim in China are making up total rubbish about Islam in China and telling outright lies about its history.
dual space says
Let me first ask you, are you ethnic Han Chinese? I am and unlike many readers of JW, I have a much more clear picture about the muslim problem in China.
If you were like me, then I would like to remind you about the bloody Hui rebellion during the 1860-1870s when at least 10 million Han Chinese were killed by muslim jihadists–mainly Hui and Dongxiang. A history as brutal as the Japanese invasion in the 1930-1940s
If you were not Han Chinese but part of the muslim minority, then I would regretfully remind you that many Chinese hate islam and muslims fervently just like JW readers. Don’t believe in my words? Go to the most popular Chinese online forum “tianya” and ask people there about their opinions in islam and muslims. As far as I can tell, although the Hui muslims do not commit as many terrorist activities as the Uyghurs do, they are more prone to other criminal activities like drug dealing and mob violence. Two of the major exchange centers of heroin are located in muslim-majority provinces Gansu and Ningxia.
Mazo says
I am aware of backbiting, name calling, and stereotypes, and that happens because of traditional ethnic stereotypes between communities (ie. since Medieval times Chinese has those stereotypes, and they knew nothing about their neighbor’s religions, and still actually most know little about Islamic religion itself and its doctrines like Jihad. They just stereotype the followers).
I myself said that some Hui engage in heroin and previously opium trade. You don’t seem to have read my posts.
Chinese would say that Mongols smell and burn dung for fuel, Cantonese people eat everything including cats, people from Henan and Anhui are poor peasants and uncivilized, people from northeastern China are lazy, the stereotypes about Hui engaging in drug trafficking and crime are just one of these reigional/ethnic stereotypes that has long roots in Chinese culture.
The bloody “Hui rebellion” was started because a fight over Bamboo sticks, and it was NOT started by Hui or over religious reasons at all. It started when a group of Han were furious over the low price a Hui paid for the sticks, and promptly attacked and went on a murderous rampage, sparking the revolt. Previously, resenment brewing over taxes and corvee labor were adding to the tension.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/同治陕甘回变#.E5.8F.9B.E4.B9.B1.E8.BF.87.E7.A8.8B
No Jihad was declared at all, the violence that erupted after the scuffle over the bamboo poles was spontaneous.
The Hui revolt itself was crushed by Khufiyya Sufi Hui Generals like Ma Zhanao and non-Sufi Gedimu (Qadim) Sunni Generals who helped Government forces massacre and crush Jahriyya Sufis.
Since the violence was spontaneous and the Qing government couldn’t really blame anyone for causing the initial spark, the Qing decided to scapegoat the Jahriyya Sufi sect for the entire rebellion, banning their religious eachings as unorthodox and proscribing them, issuing announcements that non-Jahriyya Muslims like the Khufiyya and Qasim were not guilty and welcome to help the Qing mop up and defeat the Jahriyya.
That is how the rebellion ended- non Jahriyya Muslims like the Khufiyya and Qadim Hui leaders joined Qing government forces and wiped the rebels out.
These same Khufiyya and Qadim Hui Generals helped the Qing reconquer Xinjiang from Yaqub Beg, in fact, they were the vanguard of Zuo Zongtang’s forces, launching the initial assaults before non-Muslim Han troops followed up.
Another 1895 rebellion by Hui against the government was crushed by loyal Hui Generals again.
dual space says
PC rules don’t apply to me and the majority of the Han Chinese and this website. Instead name calling is part of the way to identify the perpetrator and I think most of the readers here would agree that pointing out islam is a precise identification of the root cause of terrorist activities.
For the drug trafficking problems in China, all you have to know is that muslims, as a minority in China, overrepresent in the total number of drug dealers arrested each year to such a degree that criminal justice systems have been modified because of this. Contrary to what most westerners would expect, the Chinese government is quite loose on minority criminals. According to the Chinese law, trafficking heroin more than 50g one time would bring death penalty. But since the problem is epidemic among muslims, the standard has been raised to 1kg.
For the Hui rebellion, first of all, it is NOT spontaneous.It is a remeditated genocide of the Han Chinese in Northwest provinces. The leaders of the muslim rebels like Bai yanhu had prepared for years and the whole “bamboo” thing was no more than a excuse. Saying that the Hui rebellion was spontaneous reminds me of the Democrats calling the Benghazi attack “spontaneous”.
I agree that some muslims did participate in the cracking down of the rebellion. But the chief generals were Duo Longe and Zuo Zongtang(General Tso), the former was a manchurian aristocrat and the latter was a Han official and warlord. Bandits like Mazhan’ao was in the rebellion force at first but later surrended to Zou Zongtang and slaughtered his own “muslim brothers”. I am aware of the long history sectarian conflicts among muslims in China but this doesn’t mean that muslims did not diligently kill Han Chinese.
Mazo says
The initial revolt in Shaanxi was limited only to Qadim Hui in Shaanxi after the bamboo dispute, the Jahriyya Sufi and Khufiyya Sufi in Gansu were not involved in that dispute, but the Qing chose to selectively scapegoat the Jahriyya Sufis and annihilate them and ban their religious teachings, because they could find no one else to blame, if the Qadim were planning genocide, then the Qing would have banned Qadim only.
Mazo says
I discussed drug trafficking, the Hui, and Uyghur over here.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/china-xinjiang-governor-denounces-heresy-such-as-jihadist-martyrs-go-to-heaven/comment-page-1#comment-1033708
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/china-xinjiang-governor-denounces-heresy-such-as-jihadist-martyrs-go-to-heaven/comment-page-1#comment-1034550
Mazo says
Also because of the Hui rebellion, many Hui Generals who served with Qing forces in crushing the revolt, received top military positions in the area (Gansu), like Ma Zhanao and his sons.
After the Yunnan Rebellion, the Hui General who crushed the revolt, Ma Rulong, also received imporant military positions in the Qing provincial armies.
dual space says
That’s right and his descendants occupied Qinghai and Gansu provinces for nearly a century. That’s what Zou Zongtang did wrong in his military campaigns. Had not Duo Longe died in battles the whole muslim population would have long disappeared.
Mazo says
Ma Zhaoao’s descendants did not occupy that area for a century, they were eclipsed from power by Ma Haiyan’s descendants, Ma Bufang and Ma Buqing, and Ma Qianling’s descendants, Ma Fuxiang, Ma Hongbin, and Ma Hongkui.
Ma Bufang sent a Qinghai division under Ma Biao to kill Japanese invaders in Henan province. Ma Hongbin also fought against Japan, and his father Ma Fulu died in action in Beijing in 1900 while fighting against the Eight Nation Alliance, along with the other Hui troops from Gansu.
You should not disrespect war veterans.
Mazo says
There was a Ming loyalist Hui army led by Ding Guodong and Mi Layin against the Qing in the late 1640s in Gansu.
dual space says
Ming philosopher Gu Yanwu had a description in one of his works as follows: “Huis clang to their old fashion and clan, acting as bullies in their neighborhoods and their barbarianism hasn’t been improved after generations of moral influence”.
Mazo says
Jews were called Hui during the Ming dynasty too.
dual space says
So what? Gu yanwu was clearly referring to muslims if you read his words in context.
Mazo says
The rebellions also happened only in Northwest provinces Gansu (Ningxia, Qinghai), Shaanxi, and (southwest) Yunnan, Hui who lived in cities scattered all over eastern China from Beijing to Nanjing to Chengdu were not involved in any violence or fighting at all.
There were and still are major Hui communities in Beijing, Nanjing, Hangzhou, Chengdu, and pretty much most major cities all over eastern China.
Also there were zero terrorist activites committed by Hui, Salar, and Dongxiang. Not just “not as many”.
Hui also served in mostly every war against foreign powers, in the first Sino-Japanese war against Japan, in the Boxer Rebellion Hui from Gansu fought against the Eight Nation, again Hui, Salar and Dongxiang from Qinghai against Japan in World War 2.
Also I forgot to mention the vicious stereotypes and names Chinese have for the large African community in Guangdong, and I can list even more stereotypes and racist prejudices against other minorities, Indians, and foreigners. These are all internal stereotypes and racism.
You might hate your neighbor but don’t forget who the real enemy is.
dual space says
You also forget to mention the Hui rebellions in Yunnan which is a southwest province because my hometown is there. The leader of the rebels, Du Wenxiu, wrote a letter to the British and promised that he and his Sultanate would submit to the British empire if they could help him in his course. You can’t deny this kind of “treason”(I used quotation marks since muslims do not consider themselves as part of the infidel Chinese) since the letter is still preserved in the museum.
As far as the Hui population in the major cities are concerned, they do seem to be law abiding right now but this is mainly because they are too small in number compared to the whole Han Chinese population surrounding them. But if you go to the muslim majority rural area, you will find that Hui muslims are carrying out exactly what their religion commands–implementing sharia law, that is , banning Han Chinese from eating pork, drinking beer, celebrating Chinese festivals openly in public. Islamic supremacy is the same all over the world. Don’t believe in what I say? Check out two places: shadian in Yunnan and Linxia in gansu. These are just two of the many examples.
Mazo says
Du Wenxiu’s father was Han, and the British are non-Muslim so how does that make his fight an Islamic cause?
Du Wenxiu’s ideology was anti-Qing, not Islamist. He had non-Muslim minorities from Yunnan in his army as well like Jingpo and Shan, and his slogans were anti-Manchu and anti-Qing. He was inspired by non-Muslim Taiping Hakka Han rebels.
http://xuewen.cnki.net/CJFD-HZYJ201003009.html
“ 安漢反清 ”
http://www.people.com.cn/BIG5/historic/1017/3447.html
連回、漢為一體、
豎立義旗、
驅逐韃虜、
恢復中華、
剪除貪污、
出民水火
dual space says
I’ve said here before. We Chinese face two major enemies: the western “sea” imperialism and the islamic “desert” imperialism. You just can’t deny the fact that islam is a militant expansionist ideology deem to conquer all infidel lands and subjugate all non-believers. Just think what they did to the buddhist states in central asia and today’s Xinjiang.
dual space says
muslim rebels frequently seek allies from non-believers as long as it’s helpful for their final course. Bin laden took money and weapons from the United states and does this make al-quaeda less islamic?
Also muslims are allowed to lie to non-believers. What Du wenxiu professed to Hans were purely taqiyya.
PJG says
Off topic, so sorry: taking my chance here.
Is is true that Ma Bufang was paid in silver to release the very young Muslim-born child who became the Dalai Lama so he could be taken to the Potala? Was Ma Bufang Hui?
PJG says
Sorry, that message was for “dual space”.
Mazo says
Ma Bufang was a Hui, but why is that relevant?
dual space says
Ma Bufang was a brutal warlord, notorious for his torture of POWs. As far as the tibetans are concerned, I’m not so sure about the story you mentioned but I do know that Ma Bufang and the Hui muslims opressed the tibetans for decades and they are fervently hated by tibetans. There are frequent conflicts between tibetans and hui.
Mazo says
Tibetan Muslims (Kachee) identify with Tibetan Buddhists and side with them, the conflict between Tibetans and Hui is not religious but ethnic. Tibetans attacked both Hui and Han property in 2008 during the riots because they are angry over their commercial success.
Mazo says
Ma Bufang sent Hui troops to fight Japan in WW2, later he served as Ambassador of the Republic of China to Saudi Arabia.
Mazo says
I notice how you fail to mention the Taiping and Nian rebellions in which millions were slaughtered, the Taiping Hakka rebels slaughtered millions of other Han people, over 20 million died which is much higher than the Hui fighting in Shaanxi and Gansu.
I also forgot to mention there are also negative stereotypes about Hakka. Hakka and Cantonese used to slaughter each other in Guangdong in the 1860s, and they are both Han.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/土客冲突
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/太平天国
dual space says
If you would like to discuss the taiping tianguo movement and its casualties, find another place to start the topic. Here we focus on islamic jihad and I’m sick of muslim apologists like you who use tu quoque to justify the evil islam. Your absurd argument is like this: since other groups of people did terrible things in the past, it’s fine for muslims to carry out jihad terror according to islam. But after I compared all groups of people, I find the muslims to be the worst.
Mazo says
I replied to you about Du Wenxiu, his father was Han who converted to Islam, and he called for Han and Hui to unite to overthrow the Qing, and had many non-Muslim minority in his army, AND he was linked to non-Muslim Taiping Han rebels.
In fact none of the other Hui leaders did what he did, the Hui leaders of the Jahriyya and Khufiyya Sufi sects like Ma Hualong and Ma Zhanao never declared independence, never said they wanted to overthrow the Qing, etc.
Du Wenxiu’s father was Han, and the British are non-Muslim so how does that make his fight an Islamic cause?
Du Wenxiu’s ideology was anti-Qing, not Islamist. He had non-Muslim minorities from Yunnan in his army as well like Jingpo and Shan, and his slogans were anti-Manchu and anti-Qing. He was inspired by non-Muslim Taiping Hakka Han rebels.
http://xuewen.cnki.net/CJFD-HZYJ201003009.html
“ 安漢反清 ”
http://www.people.com.cn/BIG5/historic/1017/3447.html
連回、漢為一體、
豎立義旗、
驅逐韃虜、
恢復中華、
剪除貪污、
出民水火
Anyway this is all the west’s fault, they caused economic unstablity in China with the Opium Wars, and brought proselytizing Christianity in China which started the Taiping revolt, and that led to the tensions which led to the Hui wars in Gansu, Shaanxi, and Yunnan.
Blame who is truly responsible.
dual space says
muslim rebels frequently seek allies from non-believers as long as it’s helpful for their final course. Bin laden came into stage as anti-soviets guerrillas. He took money and weapons from the United states but does this make al-quaeda any less islamic?
Also muslims are allowed to lie to non-believers. What Du wenxiu professed to Hans were purely taqiyya. The Manchurians treated Han as second class while under islamic rule we as a people of idolatry have to either convert or be killed
Mazo says
Du Wenxiu’s revolt was crushed by the Qing with help from a HUI General, Ma Rulong, who was appointed to imporant military positions in Yunnan after the rebellion ended.
It was the Hui General Ma Fuxing from Yunnan who butchered Uyghurs in the 1920s under Governor Yang Zengxin, and another Yunnanese Hui, Ma Shaowu, who fought against Uyghur seperatists in Kashgar from 1933-1934.
The word “Taqiyya” does not even exist in Sunni Islam, it is a Shia word and concept. You will never find the word ‘Taqiyya’ in any Islamic treatise or text in China and there is also no Chinese transliteration for it unlike “sailiangmu” for Salaam.
Mazo says
for the record, Taqiyya is not even about lying to non-Muslims about anything to further the aims of Islam.
taqiyya happens when a Muslim is denying that they are Muslim if they are being persecuted or under duress by a non-Muslim power. it has to to with self preservation under persecution, Muslims are not allowed to lie about their faith when in a position of power.
Muslims are forbidden to misrepresent their religion to unbelievers when in authority.
And for the record, Jews in China were also called “Hui” during the Ming dynasty.
dual space says
Again, Like Ma Zhan’ao, Ma Rulong was a leader of the rebels in the beginning and later surrendered to Qing and turned against his fellow muslims. And this makes you believe that muslims are on Hans side? What a twisted mind you have.
Also I know another warlord named Ma zhongying who slaughtered uyghurs in Xinjiang during 1920s and as I have stated before, muslims kill each other diligently but this doesn’t make them any merciful towards non-believers. So stop using this kind of deranged examples.
As long as Taqiyya is concerned, the quran says allah is the best schemer. Here is how their god behaves, could you expect muslims to be any less dishonest?
Mazo says
It is not up to Muslims to usurp the role of God or take on his attributes, that would be blasphemous.
Hui in cities are civilized because they come from cities, everyone from rural areas acts like a barbarian.
The Qing called in loyalist Hui from cities in Sichuan and Zhejiang to mediate with the Yunnan rebels. Du Wenxiu’s ideology and even name of his kingdom were all plagiarized off from the Taiping, he copied the “peace” (Ping) to name his Kingdom like the Taiping, he used the same anti-Qing, anti-Manchu slogans and calling for Han to join him in his fight. And you know the revolt started because Hui people were killed first by Qing authorities?
Mazo says
There was also the non-Muslim Miao rebellion which caused 5 million dead in Guizhou, at the same time as the Hui rebellion in Yunnan.
Non-Muslim Taiping rebellion death toll along is greater than all Hui rebellion death toll.
Mazo says
The non-Muslim Miao Rebellion in Guizhou killed five million people and happened at the same time as Hui rebellion in Yunnan, and the non-Muslim Taiping rebellion death toll already outnumbers that of the Hui rebellions.
Liu Zhi, Wang Daiyu, and Ma Fuxiang were all Hui who studied Confucianism and wrote extentsive scholarly texts and Ma Jian translated Confucius’ works into Arabic. Kong Dejun is a Hui descended from Confucius and he also translated Confucius works into Arabic.
The Qadim and Xidaotang sects are influenced by Chinese culture and Confucianism, and the Sufi Jahriyya and Khufiyya sects are both unique to China and not found in Muslim countries.
Mazo says
Look up Imam Hu Songshan 虎嵩山.
Mazo says
Dongxiang people also don’t live in Shaanxi, they live in Gansu, most of the casualties took place in Shaanxi.
Mazo says
Qadim Hui helped the Qing crush the Jahriyya Sufi revolt in 1781, and many Qadim Hui Confucian scholars like Liu Zhi wrote that it was mandatory for Muslims to be loyal to the Qing Emperor.
citycat says
I would never talk to a Chinese person, not knowing their views, until one Chinese guy voiced his bitter disapproval of Islam. The Chinese in England don’t like the way of Islam. They seem more fervent of expression than other races about that and have a proper knowledge of Islam, which it seems contradicts pretty much with their way.
Mazo says
When England is full of people like Anjem Choudary since it gives asylum to extremists and the fact that most British Pakistanis are Mirpuri (who are viewed as the “rednecks” of Pakistan like redneck in USA), your observation doesn’t mean much. If they are in USA, they would not like black or Mexicans, since those two are most stereotype as gangs by American.
Qing says
Hi Mazo,
To prove you’re Chinese, translate this into English:
同治圆年的陕西。一些回民首领发动了“传帖杀人”。想要借太平天国陕西清军调走之际杀光陕西汉人。在黄河以西建立一个纯粹的穆斯林国家。起事前。他们秘请铁匠打制刀具。杀掉铁匠以防泄秘。然后尽购街上的竹竿以充刀杆。临潼知县得知情况后。紧急关城才保住了一些人。而渭河两岸的全县村庄。30万汉人全被杀光。当时西安城里的陕西巡抚提出的政策是安抚回民。对城里回民未杀一人;紧闭城门以防城外回民进城杀人。也阻城内回民出城杀人。再派陕西团练使张芾前去安抚。想不到回民起事的大首领任武。杀了张芾。另一位首领白彦虎杀人最凶。立志掘掉黄帝陵。结果董福祥击退。穆斯林30万人号称“陕回十八营”。几个月内在关中平原杀人五百万。一年时间关中个县长被回民杀害。只有一些县城内和逃入骊山的人口幸免。
Mazo says
Why should I translate an anti Muslim paragraph you selectively quoted for a screed (most likely a blog or forum) without context? Is this some kind of sick joke?
Why not ask me to translate a paragraph on what actually happened like this? Don’t be a dick.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/同治陕甘回变#.E5.8F.9B.E4.B9.B1.E8.BF.87.E7.A8.8B
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/同治陕甘回变#.E8.B5.84.E6.BA.90.E4.BA.89.E5.A4.BA
As a result of climate change leading to increasing drought, along with soil erosion, Shaanxi and Gansu’s natural envrinment became increasingly worse. At the same time Shaanxi and Gansu’s population continued to increase. Because after the arrival of the Manchu Qing, norwestern people of all ethnicities were massacred on varying levels…..
Angemon says
The lesson here is “when in China ride a bike or take the bus”.
umbra says
that or, minus the ROP, catching the train would be a lot safer in China.
Kepha says
In other news about China and Semitic-origin religions:
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-china-massive-church-demolished-20140429,0,977253.story#axzz30QBaF6Il
This church demolition happened in Wenzhou, Zhejiang, on the opposite end of China from these knifings. Apparently, the Communists (an official ordered the demolition after complaining that Christianity was growing “too fast and in too haphazard a manner”), like the Muslims, don’t like the dhimmi having too flashy a building.
So, Mazo, I suppose it’s America’s fault that a significant number of Uyghur are rebellious, and do not identify with the Chinese motherland? It seems that this sort of thing was going on long before anyone thought the Cold War would ever happen. It’s not that I like political violence or killings, and I am not gloating. But, don’t you think it behooves the Chinese government to find a better way of building consensus and mutual trust among peoples who are supposed to have something in common? I mean, have Han people ever had a peaceful change of dynasty in 5,000 years of history?
BTW, I’ve bought bread, raisins, and melons from Uyghur migrants in Guangzhou, talked with Hui in Taiwan, Guilin, Hangzhou, and the Golden Triangle region of Thailand. Now, I gather that you, perhaps, are Hui (apologies if you are not), and probably a Chinese patriot.
Also, please give us your take on the Beijing papers calling departing US Ambassador Locke a “banana”.
Mazo says
You know I was talking about Islam and not Uyghurs? What exactly does Mr. Spencer want China to do? Ban Islam? Why are so many people here advocating mass murder like Crusader Prime and deportation like Voegelinian? What is it with people like DDA mentioning Muslims who have no connection at all to the terrorist attacks and spamming constant links to unrelated articles?
Western media also bears responsibility for telling the lies about Dzungaria, which is not Uyghur land. Also the ‘East Turkestan’ name, which in actually the native Uyghur name is Altishahr.
The fact that the Communist party is made out of idiots (the CCP doesn’t even point at that Dzungaria is Oirat land, they actually named the whole region “Uyghur autonomous region” by themselves, and they never do any rebuttals to false claims that Dzungaria is Uyghur, actually none of this is taught to Uyghur children themselves in schools so they might really mistakenly think its all their land.), doesn’t mean western media has the moral license to tell lies every week on this topic.
The Qing unified Oirat Dzungaria and Uyghur Atishahr into one province called Xinjiang in 1884, it was never like that before. It should be re-divided. In early Qing times, Dzungaria was mostly Han and Hui.
American media also never reports on the near weekly, and deadly clashes in the Philippines because it is an American ally. I never see America report negative news about the Philippines. It only reports headline news on China if this stuff happens. When American outlets like Radio Free Asia have the time for broadcasts in Uyghur and Tibetan, but not in Maranao, Tausug, or Maguindanaon, or Acehnese, the double standard is glaring and obvious.
Western media also lies on Spratly Islands. The Republic of China claimed the entire Spratly Archipelago in the 1930s, along with France (Vietnam inherited the French claim, Mainland China and Taiwan both inherited the ROC claim). The American ruled Philippines never lodged a single claim to the archipelago. It was not until the 1970s that the Philippines started claiming the islands and contesting other countries. Yet America reports are all in favor of the Philippines, and NEVER mention the fact that both Taiwan and mainland China have the exact same claims against the Philippines, and both agree that the Philippines needs to shove it.
Locke is just doing his job as Obama’s man, his views reflect Obama’s views and not his own, if he were white or black he would have done Obama’s bidding anyway.
dual space says
I agree a ban on islam, not just in China but throughout the world. Like what the Allies did to the national socialist party, declare the muslim umma as a criminal organization. For the muslim populations, the solution is even simpler, assimilate them into the Han Chinese.
Mazo says
It is you who needs a mental evaluation.
dumbledoresarmy says
dual space
Sometimes I myself think it’s time to start calling the Muslim Ummah not only “the Mohammedan Mob” or “the de facto Empire of Islam” but also “the Allah Gang”. (When I use the term “Mohammedan Mob” I am thinking not only of the Muslim tendency to form and swarm and riot in mobs; I am also thinking of the term “Mob” as used in popular western literature to describe the Mafia, or any organised crime “family”).
I think the Ummah, Islam, could quite reasonably be described as the longest-running and nastiest and most destructive crime syndicate or crime “family” in human history: like a cross between the (mercifully-extinct) Thuggee cult of India, and the Mafia. It eclipses all other organised-crime gangs.
By the way: “Mazo” has been infesting this website for a long time, busily throwing sand. As well as attempting to deny that Islam as such – its doctrine of Jihad, and the effect it generally has on the character and conduct of its adherents – has anything to do with current events in Western China or with the character and historic actions of groups such as the Uyghur and the Hui, he also specialises in trying to play down any connection between Islam-as-such and what is currently going on in Southern Thailand, Western Myanmar, and the south of the Philippines, not to mention past and present goings-on in overwhelmingly-Muslim Indonesia.
I found it interesting that he accused someone, above, of playing “split the camp”, because that is what I think *he* is about, a lot of the time.
I would like to thank you heartily for jumping in and tackling him as thoroughly as you have done here. Much appreciated.
Mazo says
Voldemort’s army fails to notice this in dual space’s comment
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/china-muslims-murder-three-injure-79-in-jihad-attack-at-railway-station/comment-page-1#comment-1046570
dual space
April 30, 2014 at 10:52 pm
I’ve said here before. We Chinese face two major enemies: the western “sea” imperialism and the islamic “desert” imperialism. You just can’t deny the fact that islam is a militant expansionist ideology deem to conquer all infidel lands and subjugate all non-believers. Just think what they did to the buddhist states in central asia and today’s Xinjiang.
I’ve also totally ripped apart your claims and arguments, specifically your claims regarding East Timor in which your government played a huge role in assisting the secular Indonesian thug regime of Suharto in raping and murdering Timorese.
http://www.cja.org/article.php?list=type&type=198
To the United States, which had recently withdrawn from South Vietnam, Fretilin’s success seemed to confirm the worst fears of a Communist “domino effect” sweeping South-East Asia. To Indonesian nationalists, including the virulently anti-Communist President Suharto, the decolonization of East Timor presented a chance to both annex East Timor and liquidate a perceived Communist threat. Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was unequivocal in his support for the Suharto regime. On December 6, 1975, he and US President Ford met with Suharto in Jakarta just days before the invasion. According to recently declassified memos, Ford and Kissinger agreed to establish small-arms factories in Indonesia.
The following day, on December 7, 1975, Indonesia launched Operation Komodo, the general invasion of East Timor. Notified days later, Kissinger’s primary concern was how to spin the fact that American weaponry would likely be used in an illegal act of aggression: “The use of US-made arms could create problems.” But he added, “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation…it is important that
http://fundasaunmahein.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/publication_file_fr_287.pdf
Beijing assembled equipment sufficient to arm a light infantry division of 8,000 men, including medium anti-aircraft machine guns, light artillery, mortars and infantry anti-tank weapons. However, the Indonesian naval blockade with assistance from the Australian navy prevented the delivery of the equipment to the Timorese.5
One of the thug Christian Indonesian Generals who invaded East Timor, Syafei, insulted the Quran and Islam.
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
This thug carried out massacres and rapes against East Timorese.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
The west is the enemy of East Timor, West Papuan, Moro, and Chinese people and Dual Space agrees on the last part.
Mazo says
I also note with satisfaction that there is no such thing as exclusive Islamophobic hatred in China, if someone is racist in China, they likely hate ALL foreigners and foreign religions and not just one religion. Hanminzu is the Chinese version of stormfront and they hate everything foreign and all minorities, including Tibetans and others. If someone is stereotyping Hui they also stereotype about a dozen other people including Mongols, foreigners, other ethnic minorities etc. They will also oppose and detest the west as well.
Keep dreaming about converting people in China to your cause, its not going to happen.
Mazo says
he also specialises in trying to play down any connection between Islam-as-such and what is currently going on in Southern Thailand, Western Myanmar, and the south of the Philippines, not to mention past and present goings-on in overwhelmingly-Muslim Indonesia.
What a liar, I never talked about Myanmar nor gave any facts or opinions on the issue.
Mazo says
A little remembrall for Voldemort’s army.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/china-jihadmartyrdom-suicide-bombing-fails-eleven-jihadists-killed/comment-page-1#comment-1011060
dual space
February 17, 2014 at 9:45 pm
I’ve said previously that the white western imperialists like you hate China equally as the the islamic “desert” imperialists do. All you wish is that China and islam annihilate each other so that your supremacy could maintain for another century. The fact is the majority of the victims of these turkic Uighurs aren’t communists at all yet you are still claiming that they deserve the islamic militants. Fine, as long as the main target of jihad isn’t China right now, what you think doesn’t really matter.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/11/china-xinjiang-muslims-want-to-ban-tv-singing/comment-page-0#comment-988130
Confucian-Taoist-Buddhist Tradition
November 30, 2013 at 11:58 pm
Each one is the enemy of the rest two. To us, the west is the old “white” imperialism. Islam is the new “green” imperialism.
China has his own islamic problem but it’s nothing compared to the jihad being waged on the west right now. We shall neither side with the west nor side with islam. Just wait another decade. It is realistic to expect that the west will have a even larger muslim population then and further succumb to the “stealth jihad” while our strength will increase to a point that the west”s containment strategy will no longer be any effective.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion and count on the air pollution in Beijing severely damaging our economy.
Voldemort doesn’t seem to remember this
Kepha says
I find the interchange between Mazo and Dual Space highly informative, and having my own Chinese connections, I think I have a decent understanding of what they are saying.
They point out that my own Hakka connections have a history of rebellion as well–even though they are not Muslim. Come to think of it, Hong Xiuquan, the Taiping leader, was a sort of aberrant Christian who claimed to be the younger brother of Jesus Christ. Ouch. Hits me where I live. Well, know we all know that China is not necessary the calm, wise, pacific culture a lot of us would like to think it is.
My quibbles, though, are about who inhabited Eastern Turkistan. Dzungaria was indeed named for an Oirat Mongol tribe (Lama Buddhists) who ruled the area, although the area was highly mixed. Many Muslim nomads of the types later designated Kazakh and Kyrgyz by Stalin lived there as well, as well as settled Turkic Muslims called Taranchai, plus Hui and Han.
On the other hand, I admit that strongly Christian and suspicious of Islam though I am, I understand the impossibility of banning Islam. Frankly, I have no problems if all the Muslims are doing is saying that I am a Jahannum-bound Kufr. I know other Christians who say I’ going to Hell because I was baptized by pouring as an infant (Lutheran mother) rather than by immersion as a teen; or because I’m not in personal submission to the Pope; or because I accept the findings of the Synod of Dort. It’s violent actions and terror cells that give me trouble. Shall we destroy the non-guilty along with the guilty (to paraphrase Abraham’s bargaining with God over Sodom and Gomorrah). Hence, Dual Space’s admiration for the National Socialists disturbs me greatly (they hated Christianity, the religion, as well as the Jews, the people).
Translation of the following for the benefit of others (it was Du Wnxiu’s call):
連回、漢為一體、
豎立義旗、
驅逐韃虜、
恢復中華、
剪除貪污、
出民水火
Make Han and Hui one body,
Raise the Righteous Flag (of rebellion),
Cahse out the Tartar captors,
Restore China,
Cut off corruption,
Taje the people out of water and fire.
Mazo says
The Oirat Mongols were originally the only inhabitants of Dzungaria, after the Qing conquered it in 1759, the Qing brought in Taranchis/Uyghurs from the Tarim Basin (Altishahr) and Kazakhs, they are foreign settlers just like Han and Hui people. The Qing name for Dzungaria was Zhunbu (Dzungar region).
Eastern Turkestan was also not applied by westerners to Dzungaria at all during the 19th century. It was only used for the Tarim Basin.
It was a Russian named Nikita Yakovlevich Bichurin who created the name “East Turkestan” to apply to the Tarim Basin. Before that, the Uyghur name was Altishahr (6 cities 六城) The Qing name for the Tarim Basin was “Huibu”. (Muslim Region)
http://baike.baidu.com/view/1562995.htm?fromtitle=回部&fromid=4383371&type=syn
Mazo says
@Kepha
Han and Hui settlers in Dzungaria, outnumbered Taranchi/Uyghur and Kazakh settlers in Dzungaria for most of the early Qing period until the 1860s rebellions.
Uyghur nationalists use Russian and Soviet fabricated history to claim Dzungaria as their territory. They just don’t mention the favt that Soviets wrote it, like they don’t mention that the Uyghur separatists in the 1944-46 Ili revolt were Communists and pro-Soviets.
Dzungaria and the Tarim Basin (Altishahr) are two separate areas with different histories and not inhabited by the same peoples.
Wellington says
Here’s what you don’t get, Mazo: Islam sucks like no other major religion has ever sucked. As examples, it’s the only major faith that calls for war to be made upon the unbeliever and its founder was a deeply warped human being who was a psychopath, a bandit and a pedophile. And the world from China to America, from Nigeria to The Netherlands, from Britain to Russia, is coming to this conclusion about Islam more and more with each passing year. This is a good thing I would argue and there is no reversal of this growing assessment of Islam.
bill says
My reply to those who go on about islamophobia, is firstly, if as is claimed Islam is a peaceful tolerant religion, which has the answer to all the world’s problems with the imposition of Sharia and government by Allah etc. why do its followers constantly murder people indiscriminately, including other muslims of different stripes, and always in the name of Allah? Not to mention all the other crimes too numerous to mention. Where is the peace and where is the tolerance?
Secondly. Show me one Islamic country which is utopian exemplar of these claims and where they would like to go and live.
Kepha says
@Wellington and @DDA:
I rather respect Mazo’s grasp of Chinese history, and think I understand a lot of what he is saying–there’s blame enough for the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind to go around. I suspect he is a Hui, and like a lot of Hui, not only Muslim, but also someone who is shaped heavily by China’s ancient Hua-Xia culture and accepts a place in the Chinese state. The type is common on both sides of the Taiwan Strait–hence, Dual Space to the contrary, a lot of non-Muslim Chinese accept Muslims as a piece of their national mosaic. Most of what he says about the history of Hui communities in Mainland China–their splits, rebellions, and loyalties to the Chinese state–is indeed true.
As you all know, I hold no candle for Islam. As a Christian, I cannot but disagree with its theology. Yet I am also unwilling to go for massacre, mass deportation (although I’d use the deportation machinery of our immigration laws a lot more than it is currently used); or all-out inter-civilizational warfare. I do, however, think that a more active Christian witness to Muslims is in order; and this EmCeePeeCee anti-culturalism has to go.
To Dual Space: before you get too chauvinist–
子曰。 苛政猛于种类主义之白种人也。哎呀!说错了!虎也)
(Confucius said, a harsh government is more fierce than racist white people–oops, a tiger. –Book of Rites/ Li Ji)
voegelinian says
“Why are so many people here advocating mass murder like Crusader Prime and deportation like Voegelinian?”
Prove your claim about me.
Mazo says
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/canada-muslim-on-student-visa-assaults-daughter-for-marrying-non-muslim/comment-page-1#comment-1027302
voegelinian
March 24, 2014 at 6:31 pm
And deport the millions who are already here. Or do you think they are magically moderate?
Reply
voegelinian says
“deport” does not mean “murder”, you bloody idiot.
Mazo says
I said Crusader Prime advocated mass murder, and you advocated deportation.
His posts may have been deleted but the responses to them still remain which show his obvious views.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/france-thwarts-jihad-attack-by-muslim-returning-from-syria/comment-page-1#comment-1028420
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/copenhagen-police-muslim-youth-rob-still-more-their-preferred-victims-are-non-muslims/comment-page-1#comment-1034691
mortimer says
Islamophobia? What, in China too?
umbra says
that label has no traction what so ever in China. It does not exist over there perhaps because it cannot be translated into the vernacular.
Jay Boo says
Obama encouraging them with saber-rattling at China.
Obama playing the Muslim as victim card with Myanmar
Shady Character, Proud Islamophobe says
@Mortimer- Of course, Islamophobia in China too! What is really needed is Worldwide Islamophobia. It’s the only sane reaction to Jihadist Infidelophobia.
duh_swami says
From Wellington above…Here’s what you don’t get, Mazo: Islam sucks like no other major religion has ever sucked.
Short, sweet and too the point. Reality in ten little words.
bill says
Mazo and the other fellow this is not a debating society for you two. To show off your knowledge of Chinese history, especially when what you say is off topic and irrelevant. Please exchange email addresses and then you can chat without boring everyone.
duh_swami says
Bloviating never saved one life…just a fact for those with a tendency to bloviate. You know who you are…
voegelinian says
Yeah right, the Chinese aren’t PC MC like the West is — they’ll really crack down on them Muzzies, yeah right. If China were really not soft on Islam, they would have rounded up all the Muslims after the last attack, instead of waiting to get attacked again, like we keep doing.
dumbledoresarmy says
Above, the chinese mohammedan trotted out the shopworn dodge that “The word “Taqiyya” does not even exist in Sunni Islam, it is a Shia word and concept …”.
Suuuure. Sunnis lie too, in all sorts of inventive ways, they just don’t use the same *label*…
Reality check.
A fluent-in-Arabic Egyptian-background non-Muslim scholar, Raymond Ibrahim, discusses the subject of Deception, in Islam.
In a whole series of articles based on his reading of Arabic-language Muslim texts on the subject: most notably a handy little treatise entitled “Al-Taqiyya fi ‘l Islam”.
And since it is Deception, in all manner of permutations and combinations, that has been one of the Mohammedan Mob’s chief weapons against us Infidels, right from the beginning, one should *expect* that when non-Muslims wake up and begin discussing this possibility, Muslims will scream and leap up and down (or smile and slily hiss) and will do their level best to shut down the discussion and to prevent the Infidels, at all costs, from realizing that…Muslims Lie, Muslims Lie, Muslims Lie, Muslims Lie.
Item the first,
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/
Taqiyya about Taqiyya
by Raymond Ibrahim on April 9, 2014
Excerpt, re the book on taqiyya:
“One of the few books exclusively devoted to the subject, At-Taqiyya fi’l-Islam (“Taqiyya in Islam”) make this unequivocally clear.
“Written (in Arabic) by Dr. Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya in its opening pages:
“Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era.[1]”..
http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception
Islam’s doctrines of deception
by Raymond Ibrahim Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst October 2008
http://www.meforum.org/2066/war-and-peace-and-deceit-in-islam
War and Peace – and Deceit – in Islam
by Raymond Ibrahim Pajamas Media February 12, 2009
Editor’s note: Substantial portions of the following essay made up part of Mr. Ibrahim’s written testimony that was presented to Congress on February 12, 2009
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
How Taqiyya Alters Islam’s Rules of War
Raymond Ibrahim in the Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010:
“Taqiyya offers two basic uses.
“The better known revolves around dissembling over one’s religious identity when in fear of persecution. Such has been the historical usage of taqiyya among Shi’i communities whenever and wherever their Sunni rivals have outnumbered and thus threatened them.
“Conversely, Sunni Muslims, far from suffering persecution have, whenever capability allowed, waged jihad against the realm of unbelief; and it is here that they have deployed taqiyya–not as dissimulation but as active deceit.
“In fact, deceit, which is doctrinally grounded in Islam, is often depicted as being equal–sometimes superior–to other universal military virtues, such as courage, fortitude, or self-sacrifice….”.
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11267/tawriya-lying
Tawriya: New Islamic Doctrine Permits ‘Creative Lying’
by Raymond Ibrahim Stonegate Institute February 28, 2012
(by “new” he means “something new to non-Muslims, that is, something that most non-Muslims have yet to realize about Islam”).
I would encourage any Chinese non-Muslim posters and lurkers to get this series of very illuminating articles *translated* and set them circulating for the benefit of those Chinese who do not read English.
OH, and there’s something else – “muruna”. (Note: at present, the link may not necessarily work, for this item).
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/43198
Sunday, 29 July 2012
Walid Shoebat Explains Muruna
Muruna: Violating Sharia to Fool the West
The Sunni doctrine of muruna takes taqiyya a step further.
Walid Shoebat and Ben Barrack
“Westerners who understand Islamic deception often refer to “taqiyya” as being the tactic of lying in order to guard the faith.
“Sunni Muslim apologists counter that taqiyya is a Shiite doctrine, while accusing Shiites of being rabblerousers who sanction “mut’a” (pleasure marriage), which is nothing more than prostitution.
“Shiites can easily find equivalents to taqiyya and mut’a in the Sunni Muslim world. They are called “misyar” and “muruna.”…
“Few Westerners are familiar with the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood revival of the doctrine of muruna, which literally means “stealth” or “flexibility.”
“It is far worse than taqiyya, since it sanctions all prohibitions that block Muslim interests, even blasphemous ones..”.
“…Muruna is about going to great lengths to gain interests through a much deeper level of deception while simultaneously lowering the guard and gaining the support of the infidels…”.
Lies wrapped around lies wrapped around lies.
*The* symbol par excellence of Islam is the mask.
Or the smiling assassin with a knife under his cloak.
Mazo says
And again Voldemort’s army spams another list of links which have nothing to do with the article.
Taqiyya (a Shia practice) and any related fictional lying disorders like “Muruna” which most Muslims don’t even know what it means, will not be found in an Chinese Islamic texts, neither in the traditional 13 Chinese Islamic canonical texts in Arabic and Persian (including the Quran), or in any Chinese language Islamic text, there is no Chinese transcription for “Taqiyya” and “Muruna”.
How do I know if Raymond Ibrahim is not a liar? I looked up this man, Raymond Ibrahim is the one propagated the hoax about a fatwa on sodomy, which was started when a Shia channel, Fadak TV (owned by Yasser al Habib) read out a question from a Sunni online internet forum asking if sodomy was permitted to fit the anus with explosive devices, and the resulting response, it was an obvious trolling by the Shia channel against Sunnis, but Ibrahim either thought it was real, or deliberately lied, knowing that Yasser al Habib and Fadak TV are humongous trolls.
The Coptic Church doesn’t view Buddhism too kindly, Buddhism is listed as a Satanic cult along with Masons, Mormonism, Bahai, Vedicism (Hinduism) perhaps Raymond Ibrahim would like to translate this for Buddhists, Bahais, Mormons, Hindus, Masons.
http://st-takla.org/Full-Free-Coptic-Books/FreeCopticBooks-021-Sts-Church-Sidi-Beshr/003-3ebadat-Al-Shaitan/Satanism-000-index-2-What.html
This is the article on Buddhism.
http://st-takla.org/Full-Free-Coptic-Books/FreeCopticBooks-021-Sts-Church-Sidi-Beshr/003-3ebadat-Al-Shaitan/Satanism-030-Bozzy.html
Wellington says
I don’t really give a damn if the Coptic Church lists certain other belief systems as Satanic. What I do give a damn about is that Coptic suicide bombers are kinda’ scarce and that Copts having a problem with freedom is not an everyday event and that Copts expecting the rest of the world to adapt to them is sorta’ rare and that Copts calling for war to be made upon the unbeliever just ain’t happening last time I checked and…, and…, and….
Again you miss the big picture. Big time.
Mazo says
I posted those links because Raymond Ibrahim is a Copt.
Semeru says
One has to remember that Pope Shenouda III, the former head of Egypt’s Coptic church and the man responsible for the 1978 ban ban on Copts visiting holy sites in Israel and Palestine since.
“From the Arab national viewpoint, we should not abandon our Palestinian brothers and our Arab brothers by normalizing our relations with the Jews,” Shenouda reportedly said in 2002, arguing the ban’s motivations were twofold. “From the church point of view, Copts who go to Jerusalem betray their church in the case of [Deir El-Sultan] that Israel refuses to give to the Copts.” According to the church, Copts shouldn’t go to Jerusalem until the city has been “liberated.
Shenouda along with many more copts, was a soldier during the 1948 war against Israel,
dumbledoresarmy says
So what?
IRRELEVANT.
Shenouda was a Copt in Egypt. Coptic soldiers conscripted into the Egyptian army were in Egypt. Shenouda and those soldiers were living as de facto dhimmis, unable to speak or think freely.
Mr Ibrahim is not in Egypt. He is a *non-dhimmified* free American Copt, and has made up his own mind. He is under no obligation to flatter or fawn or grovel to Muslims; and he does not.
Raymond Ibrahim would not be a friend and colleague of Mr Spencer’s if he were a declared antisemite and enemy of Israel.
Whatever it is that Shenouda and other unnamed egyptian Copt soldiers sixty-plus years ago thought about Israel proves *nothing* about Mr Raymond Ibrahim’s personal views.
It also does *nothing* to disprove what Mr Ibrahim has said about deception in Islam.
(Incidentally, he is not the only person to have drawn attention to this particular aspect of Islam. Rev Dr Mark Durie discusses the subject as well, drawing upon a range of Islamic sources).
Semeru says
DDA again makes accusations that Mazo is sand throwing, but she does not add anything to a very education debate between “Mazo” and “dual space”, she once again cuts and pastes a previous comment about taquiya from another thread.
Truthbender DDA
DDA gives many links to various article, mainly to the Middle East Forum (MEF) but oddly there is no link to Islam’s doctrines of deception
by Raymond Ibrahim Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst October 2008
Now why is it DDD cannot supply a link
Could it be because The UK office and I spoke with an editor Jeremy Bonnie. He recognized Ibrahim’s article as soon as I mentioned it and the embarrassment was evident. He said that the original, Arabic-speaking editor of Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst had just left and a temporary one was in place when Ibrahim’s article on Taqiyya was submitted and got published. “It was a little bit unfortunate” he said. “it certainly wasn’t our greatest day”.
He said Jane’s then followed up with another article on November 12, 2008, correcting Ibrahim’s article, something Jane’s is not known to do easily.
It could be that Janes have now removed the article, therefore no link.
Non moslem use the term taquiya to shut down debate, much the same way moslems use islamphobia.
Not that long ago, Raymond Ibrahim reported on alleged crucifixions that took place outside the palace gates in Cairo during Morsi’s Ikhwan regime. There was no evidence of it whatsoever but it was widely repeated because as a prescribed punishment in islam
And as Mazo pointed out Ibrahim was the one who propagated the hoax about a fatwa on sodomy
So not only does DDA not contribute to a interesting discussion, but interrupts by linking to very unreliable sources, then she has the gall to accuse Mazo and Myself of throwing sand
Angemon says
@ dual space
You posted:
“So what? Gu yanwu was clearly referring to muslims if you read his words in context.”
You’re saying that in response to Mazo’s post:
“Jews were called Hui during the Ming dynasty too.”
Just wanted to let you know that that’s part of Mazo’s MO. If he can blame any other ethnicity/religion/culture to excuse muslims he’ll do it. Sorry if it seems i’m trying to bring an unrelated discussion here, i’m just trying to give you a head’s up based on my personal experience with Mazo. I’m sure regulars like dumbledoresarmy and voegelinian have similar experiences and can vouch for what i’m saying.
duh_swami says
personal experience with Mazo.
There are lots of Mazo’s that go by different names, but they are all Mahoundians waving the rusty knife of taqiyya.
Jay Boo says
Ever notice how Obama seems to scold China about human rights right after a terrorist attack (BTW same as scolding of Russia)
Conniving Muslims in China conjure up their plots as Obama tries to intimidate China.
The Butcher Knife religion of Satan
dumbledoresarmy says
Totally predictable.
Mazo has a meltdown – spitting insults (including the particularly petty, puerile and ugly piece of turnspeak involved in calling me voldemortsarmy ) and accusing me of “spamming” and accusing Mr Ibrahim of being a liar.
And why? – I posted a series of well-researched scholarly articles by Raymond Ibrahim on the subject of Islamic deception as used in Islamic warfare against non-Muslims. Articles that I think that persons new to this site and this subject might find helpful. One of those articles was published in a journal put out by “Jane’s”, which is a long-standing Authority on military subjects. If “Jane’s” thought that Mr Ibrahim’s article was worth publishing, that is not trivial.
I wonder what sort of tantrum Mazo would have thrown, had I been able to post a link to a copy of the expert witness statement, on the subject of taqiyya, that was presented to the judge in a court in the UK recently, by the formidable Dutch scholar, Hans Jansen? The judge appeared to find it convincing. I have no doubt that that statement would have agreed, in all particulars, with the points that are made by Raymond Ibrahim, and would have cited and discussed many of the same Islamic source texts…along with others accessible to Mr Jansen but not necessarily to the general public. Perhaps Mr Jansen could be prevailed upon to rework his witness statement into a journal article.
(Cue furious screechings from Mazo attempting to impugn Mr Jansen’s character and scholarship, at 3….2…1…).
Those articles are relevant – totally relevant – to every single thread at jihadwatch, because the Muslim war on non-Muslims is pursued all day, every day, all over the world, at both the macro and the micro level; in a railway station in China by means of the jihad of the sword and the bomb, and *in the threads right here at jihadwatch* by means of the jihad of the pen and tongue.
Because once non-Muslims – enough non-Muslims – figure out that the necessary and sensible default attitude toward utterances by Muslims is intelligent scepticism, then the game is up.
Our current slave-of-allah does not address the fact that Mr Ibrahim has studied *Islamic texts in Arabic*. Mr Ibrahim’s being a Copt does not mean that his considered, scholarly assessment of the content of Islamic texts must be ipso facto ruled out of court.
And what one or more other* Copts – who are not Mr Ibrahim – may think about *other* world faiths does not alter what Mr Ibrahim has found in the Islamic canonical scriptures and in Arabic texts discussing those ‘scriptures’.
Mazo says
Again Voldemort’s Army can’t resoond to the fact that none of the canonical thirteen traditional Arabic and Persian texts used in China before the 20th century in lieu of Ahadith, contain any mention of lying like Taqiyya and “Muruna”, the Ahadith say nothing aout this topic either.
Why doesn’t Raymond Ibrahim quote directly from Islamic texts like Qur’an and Ahadith, and actual writings by historic and modern Islamic scholars (ulama) which say what he claims? Dr. Sami Mukaram is not an alim and has no authority to issue fatawa, nor have most Muslims in China even heard of these people.
If you don’t read or write Arabic, and have never even met an Arabic speaking scholar, you have zero credentials to speak on this.
This website is not run by any ordinary Copt, it is an official website of a major Coptic Church in Alexandria, and the book on Satan worship is from كنيسة القديسين مارمرقس والبابا بطرس – سيدي بشر – الإسكندرية (The Church of Saint Mark and Pope Peter -Alexandria)
The Official Website of St. Takla Haymanout Coptic Orthodox Church
Alexandria, Egypt
http://st-takla.org/index.html
الفصل الثاني: العبادات الشيطانية
Translation: The Second Chapter : Satanic Worship
30 البوذية
30: Buddhism
http://st-takla.org/Full-Free-Coptic-Books/FreeCopticBooks-021-Sts-Church-Sidi-Beshr/003-3ebadat-Al-Shaitan/Satanism-000-index-2-What.html
The article is in Arabic, it talks about Buddhists using magic, sorcery, and about Buddhist monks having sexual relations and being pedophiles.
http://st-takla.org/Full-Free-Coptic-Books/FreeCopticBooks-021-Sts-Church-Sidi-Beshr/003-3ebadat-Al-Shaitan/Satanism-030-Bozzy.html
They don’t provide an English version of these articles on their website, they obviously wanted to keep this list a sect among Copts.
Kepha says
Hmmm. I’ve known a few ex-Buddhists who might agree that Buddhism is Satanic. Among older “Mainlander” Christian people I knew in Taiwan, there were a few who had family members killed by the Boxers in the name of Buddhism.
The original idolatry, according to the Bible, is when the Old Serpent Satan tempted Adam and Eve to be gods for themselves. From that all other idolatries, including those that woship the Cosmos, the Dialectic, Historical Necessity, Progress, and just the good old human belly stem.
dumbledoresarmy says
Above, the Mohammedan, Mazo, still madly throwing sand in the hope of preventing curious new readers from clicking on the links I gave and checking out for themselves what Raymond Ibrahim had to say on the subject of islamic deception (let alone Walid Shoebat, who **grew up among Palestinian Arab Muslims**), trots out the following canard:
“If you don’t read or write Arabic, and have never even met an Arabic speaking scholar, you have zero credentials to speak on this.”
(Note, this is a variant of a canard often trotted out by Muslims defending islam: it is the claim that you have no right to any sort of an opinion about *anything* to do with Islam, nor the contents of the Quran, etc – let alone resist and defend your society against the Islamic invasion – *unless* you have formally studied Islam in an Islamic institution under Muslim masters and unless you can read all the classic texts in the original Arabic. And this is a nonsense. It’s a distraction. It’s as if someone said that no-one had any right to discuss or criticise what the Japanese were doing in China and Korea in the 1930s, or to criticise the “Bushido” system and emperor-worship, let alone start defending themselves against the Japanese imperial invasions of SE Asia and the Pacific, unless and until they had learned to speak, read and write Japanese, and unless and until they had studied Shinto in Japan and personally talked to Bushido devotees.)
Our Mohammedan, busy defending Islam and the Ummah, hopes people won’t realize that both Raymond Ibrahim *and* Walid Shoebat **do in fact both speak and read and write Arabic**!!
And in his articles Mr Ibrahim *does* cite Quran and other canonical Islamic texts and their deemed-most-authoritative interpreters, past and present. I have no doubt that Mr Jansen, in his exposition of the meaning of taqiyya, for the benefit of an English judge, would also have cited all the relevant texts.
It is *because* Mr Ibrahim grew up speaking Arabic – and his parents used to take him to visit relatives in Egypt, where he was *immersed* in Arabic – that he was able, among other things, to *translate* a whole slew of Al Qaeda Arabic-language communiques, and therefore able to observe that what they said in Arabic to Arabic-speaking Muslims was quite different from what they said in English with a view to a Western non-Muslim audience. The result of this work was his “The Al-Qaeda Reader”. It is an expositon of Mohammedan doublespeak. It shows how they talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Walid Shoebat, son of an American mother and a Muslim Arab father, **grew up among Arabic-speaking Muslims**. He is, therefore, *bilingual*.
I would say that Ibrahim and Shoebat, both of whom have experienced the Arab Islamic world first-hand and who have grown up speaking reading and writing Arabic, are far more knowledgeable and qualified than Mazo who, if he is telling the truth, is a *Chinese* Mohammedan who would have learnt Arabic as a second or even third language.
Whether Ibrahim and Shoebat have “met” Arab Islamic “scholars” face to face is irrelevant: Ibrahim would have done so, during his studies. Shoebat would have heard many an imam pronounce on Islam and would have had access to radio and TV presentations of Islam, broadcast out of the heartlands of Arab Islam.
And by what right does Mazo claim that *his* texts trump the canonical Hadith collections and the Sira – in which, among other things, it is recorded that “War is deceit”, and in which notable instances of the use of deception to destroy non-Muslims are gloatingly and approvingly described?
If Chinese Islam is a backwater, why should anyone view it as “typical”? Why should anyone assume that because a particular set of *terms* are not – so Mazo says – used in *Chinese*Islamic texts, those terms are not used elsewhere in the dar al Islam? And in any case, just because some Chinese Muslims might not actually use a particular Arabic-language term – let’s just call it “x” – doesn’t mean that they’re not doing or discussing what “x” refers to…it might mean that they’re doing it *and* discussing it, but instead of calling it “x” they’re calling it “y”. So that they can then look people straight in the eye and, feigning bewilderment and outrage, say, “but our books don’t have “x” in them”.
The way in which Muslims and Islam use and abuse words makes Orwell’s newspeak, by comparison, look simple and innocent.
Angemon says
DDA, just to add to your *excellent* point:
If we take things literally then Mazo is speaking the truth. As far as i know, what he said about the word taqiyya not existing in sunni islam and being a Shia word and concept is true. Now, saying that the word taqiyya does not exist in sunni islam is not the same as saying that the concept of taqiyya does not exist in sunni islam (and adapting the immortal bard’s words here, “a turd by any other name would smell as foul”). It’s true that the shia polished it to a form of art, but that’s because they’re always been a minority. Now, Mazo says that “taqiyya happens when a Muslim is denying that they are Muslim if they are being persecuted or under duress by a non-Muslim power (and notice that he doesn’t say “a shia muslim is denying”, he just says “a muslim is denying”). Thing is, historically, most of the persecution that shia muslims suffered came from sunni muslims. Taqiyya in shia islam was a response to persecution by other muslims, not by non-muslim powers. Sunnis would often attempt to force shiites to curse the house of Ali, so shiites defended themselves by doing just that. As far as they cared, as long as they didn’t believe what they were saying it was ok.
Moreover, the very idea that lying in islam is only permitted when facing persecution or fearing for one’s life is contrary to muhammad’s example, as attested in the following hadith:
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_59.php
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369
Narrated by Jabir bin ‘Abdullah
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). “The Prophet said, “You may say it.”
Muhammad wasn’t being persecuted or feared for his life. Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf was a poet in Medina who made a poem criticizing muhammad’s execution of prisioners captured in the battle of Badr. Muhammad allowed lying not to save himself but to have someone else killed.
Another from Bukhari:
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_3_49.php
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857
Narrated by Um Kulthum bint Uqba
That she heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.”
That’s another situation where lying is permissible. You want to get two of your friends to make up after a discussion? Lie to them.
Sahih muslim
http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/160-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2032.%20Virtues,%20Good%20Manners%20and%20Joining%20Of%20The%20Ties%20Of%20Relationship/14815-sahih-muslim-book-032-hadith-number-6303.html
Sahih Muslim Book 032, Hadith Number 6303.
Chapter : Forbiddance of telling a lie and the cases in which telling of lie is permissible.
Humaid b. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of ‘Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
Does it say anything about only lying when being persecuted or fearing for one’s life there? No.
Imam Abu Hammid Al-Ghazali, who is one of the most famous muslim theologians ever, had this to say about lying (Resurgent Islam and America, David Goldmann, page 70):
“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.”
So lying is OK if it suits you and you can’t get what you want by telling the truth. This idea is endorsed on the book Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law which, in 1991, was sanctioned by the highest muslim religious authorities at Egypt’s Al-Azhar university (the most important university in sunni islam), as conforming to sunni muslim’s current day practice and belief.
So yeah, while taqiyya may be a shia concept it doesn’t mean that sunni muslims are exempt from lying if and when it suits them.
Mazo says
What a liar, I never said the 13 texts supersede the Ahadith, I said they were used Chinese Muslims before the 20th century, because there were no complete Ahadith collections in China until the 20th century when they were brought back by visitors to the Middle East.
Du Wenxiu never read the Ahadith, any anyway the words Taqiyya and Muruna DO NOT EXIST in the Ahadith, so Muslims in China do not even know what those words mean.
Speaking of what the Japanese were doing in China and south-east asia, it was Muslims who fought against them in China and Mindanao. It was Hui, Dongxiang and Salar Muslims from Ma Hongbin and Ma Bufang’s armies who fought the Japanese in China, and Moro Muslims who fought the Japanese in Mindanao.
Voledmort’s army might have supported the Japanese rapists and child murderers just because their opponents were Muslim.
Mazo says
This article was written in Jane’s to debunk Ibrahim’s trash about “Taqiyya”. The verses Ibrahim cited had nothing to do with “Taqiyya” and he did not even provide translations for some of them.
http://www.ghadar.com/secondarypages/research/articles/Islamic%20Affairs.pdf
Semeru says
DDA says
Our Mohammedan, busy defending Islam and the Ummah, hopes people won’t realize that both Raymond Ibrahim *and* Walid Shoebat **do in fact both speak and read and write Arabic**!
Just because they speak and read arabic does not mean that they are telling the truth
Here is an example of Blatant lying both by Robert Spencer and Raymond Ibrahim
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/03/egypt-muslims-burn-christian-man-alive-stab-his-father-to-death
In the above link there is of photo of a supposed copt christian being burnt
The article goes on to report
A young Christian man was suddenly set on fire by a Muslim man in Egypt after a rumor circulated that the Christian man had a relationship with the Muslim man’s sister.
Yasser Ahmed Qasim approached 25-year-old Sabri Shihata and poured gasoline on the Coptic Christian and then set him on fire, reported the Voice of the Copts on Friday. The young Copt tried to put out the fire by throwing himself into a nearby canal, but the burns were too severe and he later died.
Amazing that Spencer and Ibrahim miss the fact that the victim is wearing woman’s shoes
The truth is
The horrifying sight which traumatized shoppers and office workers in the centre of Luxembourg City last week has now been labeled as a protest against racism. The Belgian woman of Congolese origin who set herself alight in the middle of Place d’Armes told witnesses that she was! doing it to protest against racism, moments before she carried out th e desperate act which has left her in hospital fighting for her life.
Maggy Delvaux-Mufu, a mother of three in her forties, alerted several national newspapers late on Tuesday morning last week that she would be burning herself alive on place des Martyrs at 12.45 am, before setting out accompanied by her husband to walk through the centre of town to her macabre rendezvous. The police were alerted and officers were deployed to the Rousegärtchen.
http://www.africancrisis.org/Article.php?ID=20128&
So here is one more blatant lie from Ibrahim, and DDA expects us to believe him
And Gravenimage claims that R Spencer verifies his source before submitting articles to this forum.
BTW. Spencer claims that muslims murdered three people, he failed to mention that two of the dead where the attackers themselves
Mirren10 says
”Spencer claims that muslims murdered three people, he failed to mention that two of the dead where the attackers themselves”
Where does it say that ?
And even if it is, in fact, true; are you attempting to imply that this negates their intention to murder non-mohammedans ? And somehow excuses the injuries of 79 people ?
You are a malevolent fool.
Semeru says
in response to Mirren10
The official website for Xinjiang’s regional government said police identified two suspects with a history of religious extremism, including a 39-year-old man from southern Xinjiang.
It did not explicitly call Wednesday’s attack in the regional capital of Urumqi a suicide bombing, but said the two men detonated explosives at a train station exit and both died on the spot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/cctv-3-dead-in-train-station-attack-in-china/2014/04/30/10fc9a4a-d0c6-11e3-a714-be7e7f142085_story.html
Mirren10 says
I repeat:
are you attempting to imply that this negates their intention to murder non-mohammedans ? And somehow excuses the injuries of 79 people ?
You are a malevolent fool.
Semeru says
So I am malevolent fool for pointing out that Spencer and Abrahim along with many here deviate from the facts, them accuses muslims of lying Taquiya.
dumbledoresarmy says
Ibrahim’s article in ‘Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst” was indeed attacked by the usual suspects.
Ibrahim wrote a response to those attacks.
http://www.meforum.org/2094/taqiyya-revisited
Taqiyya Revisited: A Response to the Critics
by Raymond Ibrahim Jihad Watch February 26, 2009
As regards the sources he drew upon, he says this:
“(Ironically, being only a 4,000 word essay, I only supplied a tithe of the numerous albeit subtle taqiyya decrees and interpretations I have surveyed in Arabic texts dedicated to this topic.)”
Note: *Arabic* texts.
Mazo says
What Arabic texts? Children’s books? Gossip magazines? Novels? Or are you that blind that you do not know that Arabs write about the same things all other people write about?
Mirren10 says
Mazo, you have a biiig problem with reading comprehension. As in your inability to read with understanding the Wikipedia entry on lingchi, you similarly fail to comprehend what is clearly stated;
” … I only supplied a tithe of the numerous albeit subtle taqiyya decrees and interpretations I have surveyed in Arabic texts dedicated to **this topic**.)” (My emphasis: Mirren)
That is, Arabic texts dedicated to the **topic of taqiyya**, not children’s books, gossip magazines, or novels.
dumbledoresarmy says
above, one of our other Islamopologists, busy tag-teaming with the Chinese mohammedan, crowed:
“DDA gives many links to various article, mainly to the Middle East Forum (MEF) but oddly there is no link to Islam’s doctrines of deception
by Raymond Ibrahim Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst October 2008
Now why is it DDD cannot supply a link?” .
I supplied a link that would enable readers to view Mr Ibrahim’s own copy of the article as **reprinted verbatim** at the Middle East Forum, presumably with permission from Jane’s.
Jane’s has not removed the *article* from their “Islamic Affairs Analyst”; what has happened is that that whole *publication* has been discontinued, and merged into something else.
http://www.ihs.com/products/janes/security/news/islamic-affairs-analyst.aspx
“Islamic Affairs Analyst is now only available as part of IHS Jane’s Security: News module.
“IHS Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst has been discontinued as a stand-alone product, but IHS continues to deliver reliable insight into Islamic political, economic, social and security developments via the IHS Jane’s Security: News module.”
Ibrahim’s article, “Islam’s Doctrines of Deception”, along with an article by an apologist for Islam which attacked his conclusions, and to which he has responded, is listed in their archives. If they had removed it and thrown it down the “memory hole”, why would it be included in the list of “special reports”??
http://archive.today/5mbW
Mazo says
First of all Chinese people won’t waste their time translating trash.
Secondly, anything that disturbs social order in China gets banned, the government even deleted Weibo posts online showing pictures of the Urumqi blasts so people would stop talking **** about Uyghurs on the internet, since many posts about them are laced with racial slurs and could set off ethnic riots. Most of the insults directed at Uyghurs because of the recent terrorism are ethnic, not religious.
As for religious affairs, I already mentioned that book “Sexual Customs” which insulted Islam, got banned in China in 1989 after Muslims protested, and the authors got arrested. Hate literature and hate websites will get censored by the government.
dumbledoresarmy says
Raymond Ibrahim does not write “trash”. “The Al Qaeda Reader” is not “trash”…unless, of course, the person calling it “trash” is a mohammedan who does not want non-Muslims to be able to take what some Muslims have said to other Muslims when they think the non-Muslims can’t overhear them, and compare it with what those same Muslims have said to the non-Muslims.
And if the Chinese *don’t* translate Raymond Ibrahim’s work into Chinese, that’s their problem…more fool they. Ditto if they don’t translate Bat Yeor, or Mark Durie, or any number of others.
Of course, plenty of Chinese both inside and outside China read English, and I would be greatly surprised if mazo were the only Chinese person, conversant in English, who, one way or another, has come across jihadwatch…*or* Raymond Ibrahim’s and Robert Spencer’s books and articles, and those of others who are writing critically – and intelligently – about Islam in English.