“Religious Adviser to Prime Minister Tan Sri Dr Abdullah Md Zin said it was ‘not common’ for a leader of a superpower to include a visit to a mosque in their itinerary.” But, he said, “there can be no better way for Obama to honour Islam than by visiting Masjid Negara. It will be interesting to know what he has to say about the mosque and Islam.” Indeed it will. But whatever he says, it will almost certainly demonstrate that he has learned nothing since his outreach speech in Cairo on June 4, 2009, despite the spectacular failure of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the abysmal failure of U.S. forces laboring under his impossible rules of engagement in Afghanistan, and despite the Fort Hood jihad massacre, and despite the Boston Marathon jihad bombing, and 1000 other events that refute his core assumptions. Despite all this, Obama will utter the same platitudes he has uttered before about the marvelous contributions Islam has made to world civilization and to the U.S., and about the need for mutual respect, and about how he will fight for Muslims’ right to observe Sharia provisions and fight against criticism of Islam and Muhammad.
“Obama to visit Masjid Negara,” by Zuhrin Azam Ahmad, The Star, April 24, 2014:
PUTRAJAYA: US President Barack Obama will be knocking on the doors of one of Malaysia’s most iconic landmarks – Masjid Negara – on Sunday.
The visit to the mosque, built in 1922 on the site of a church, is being greatly anticipated, with Muslim scholars here saying it would further emphasise the president’s commitment to reach out to the Muslim world.
Religious Adviser to Prime Minister Tan Sri Dr Abdullah Md Zin said it was “not common” for a leader of a superpower to include a visit to a mosque in their itinerary.
“There can be no better way for Obama to honour Islam than by visiting Masjid Negara. It will be interesting to know what he has to say about the mosque and Islam,” he added yesterday.
Johor Islamic Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadut said that although Obama was not compelled to visit the mosque, his choice to do so meant a lot to Muslims in Malaysia and around the world.
“It shows that the president is sensitive and also that he wants to get closer to the Muslim world,” he added.
Nooh said photos of Masjid Negara were used as a referral to relate Islam and Malaysia.
“Some, especially the younger generation, have forgotten about it but President Obama obviously knows the significance of the mosque to Malaysia.
“I hope that mosque officials would take the opportunity to properly brief him on the role of the mosque within the context of a multi-racial and multi-religious country like Malaysia,” he stressed.
Obama’s visit to Masjid Negara will not be the first time he is doing so in his travels.
Shortly after his inauguration, Obama visited the famed Blue Mosque while on a visit to Turkey.
During a trip to Indonesia in 2010, the president also visited Istiqlal Mosque in Jakarta, which is one of the world’s largest mosques.
Masjid Negara’s unique modern design embodies a contemporary expression of traditional Islamic art calligraphy and ornamentation.
Near the mosque is the Makam Pahlawan (Heroes Mausoleum), a burial ground of several Malaysian politicians who include former Prime Minister Tun Abdul Razak Hussein.
veggiedog says
Despicable.
Michael Copeland says
He can tell them how he got into trouble for making faces in Koran class.
mariam rove says
Don’t worry. Obama will be glad to oblige. M
Steffen Larsen says
The Star article would appear to be not quite correct.
It was a “Plymouth Brethren” church, or gospel hall, built in 1922 and appropriated by the Malaysian government i 1962, although another site was given as compensation, close to the Girls’ School belonging to the assembly. This School was taken over by the government i 2001 without compensation, for commercial development.
The Plymouth Brethen take a positive view of everything, able to take everything in their stride: they merely build something new. I view their presence – and that of the Christian Chinese among them – as being contained.
http://www.brethrenpedia.com/Malaysia
ibn Muslim says
This really is a fanatical right wing hate speech website 🙁
Rob Crawford says
No it’s not.
jihad3tracker says
Hello ibn Muslim —
If this is your first visit, welcome. You will find thousands of FACTS AND REAL EVENTS here about Islam.
But be warned — That scholarly history (including hundreds of quotations from the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira) along with learning of the relentless violence of Muslims upon “Infidels” around our planet, will probably disturb you.
However, continue to follow Robert Spencer’s effort to educate on the true essence of Islam… You might keep in mind the words of another counter-jihadist (Pamela Geller) : Truth is the new “hate speech”.
john spielman says
ibn muslim has visited here before. He refuses to acknowledge the evil record of modern islam . Truth is the new “HATE SPEECH”, so why doesn’t Ibn muslim refute the tenets of Islam and sharia law that mandates DEATH FOR APOSTATES, HOMOSEXUALS, and people like me who “blaspheme” his god Allah/Satan, and Muhammed that vile demon possessed mass murderer thief liar misogynist and pedophile!
jihad3tracker says
Thank you, John, for that info…
Well, ibn Muslim, here is an offer which I think many curious readers of JW here would also be happy to participate in —
Find fabricated journalism ( out of the thousands of total news reports that should be easy, if such lies exist ) about Muslims harming other persons.
Then post those here, with hotlinks if you wish.
Mirren10 says
Really ?
Funny thing is, *you* are allowed to post your supremacist and nauseating drivel here though.
Because *we* believe in free speech, unlike your miserable co-religionists. But you just see that as weakness, don’t you ? I feel sorry for you.
Mirren10 says
What about the articles, mohammedan ?
Is what your co-religionists are doing, hate ?
Angemon says
Do point out where on this website you see fanatical right wing values and hate speech – other than in quotes from islamic texts and muslims, that is. Rest assured that Robert Spencer or anyone else from JW administration isn’t responsible for all user comments and the JW administration deletes hate speech as soon as they see it.
John C. Barile says
I trust that we are temperate and composed when goaded, and that we police our own ranks to keep us from excess–this is a privately owned domain, after all; and we ought keep faith with our host, his associates, and his just purposes
Tradewinds says
Shut up Muslim. Don’t you have a car bomb to set off somewhere? Islam – the Religion of Terrorism.
Sidney Penny says
Is Obama going to the Hindu temple in Batu Caves?
KUALA LUMPUR: The “huge” statues at a Hindu temple in Batu Caves and Buddhist temple in Penang are an affront to Islam as the religion forbids idolatry, a retired Court of Appeals judge said.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-malaysia-judge-says-huge-hindu-buddhist-statues-an-affront-to-islam
“With such a huge statue, you’re showing that your religion is all mighty and powerful,” Datuk Mohd Noor Abdullah said — and in the supremacist vision that he has, since he “insisted Islam is above other faiths,” that is unacceptable. He did not receive the memo that Muslims in the West have received, that “interfaith dialogue” is the order of the day, full of smiles and assurances of tolerance — until such displays are no longer necessary, and a vision of Islam much like that of Datuk Mohd Noor Abdullah takes its place. “‘Huge’ Hindu, Buddhist Statues Against Islam, Ex-Judge Says,” from the Malaysian
kikorikid says
Maybe Obama will help them place explosives
on Hindu or Bhudist shrines like the Taliban
at Bamiyan. Oh excuse me, he is the President,
he will just supply the explosives.
sidney penny says
You have some to the best website for explaining what Islam is and is not.
It is scholarly,factual,logical,honest,there are no swear word,no calling of names,
the debate is on the issues, the texts.
Good idea to have your definition of hate speech and some examples.
Let us see it.
ben t says
You are either a teasing provocateur or a really mohammedan cur. If the latter, stick to the facts!
gravenimage says
ibn Muslim wrote:
This really is a fanatical right wing hate speech website
……………………………..
Any resistance to Muslim supremacy is seen as “hate” by—well—Muslim supremacists.
Joseph Cornell says
Hello Ibn Muslim. It’s easy for a coward to come on here, spew some drivel that he’s been brainwashed with in a mosque, and disappear, believing he’s taken his first jihad step. Though I know you won’t, because you can’t, I’d love for you to point out what on this website is wrong? Better yet, though I know you won’t, because you can’t, point out where islam is right?
Aisha says
“right wing” wow! Got you “talking points” and “marching orders” from your masters?
jihad3tracker says
This event makes — uh, how many times ? — that our Muzzie-Lover In Chief has proved himself to be deliberately short of a full commitment to Americans and their safety.
What stuns me over and over again about every one of the persons with self-deluded “undetectable” empathy for Islam is JUST HOW PLAINLY IN OUR FACES THAT BEHAVIOR IS …
Could this mosque visit be any more transparent as evidence of his ego-driven childhood-anchored willingness to give encouragement to jihadis ?
And here is a question I have never seen posed — or answered with reasonable speculation on a highly probable reply : how much MORE damage will he do after leaving office ? Seriously… think it over.
Jay Boo says
Obama is on his way to apologize to Islam for his recent comments praising Jews at Passover and Christians at Easter.
Masjid Negara is to serve as a reassuring backdrop so he can explain that his comments were in no way were meant to detract for the ‘supremacy’ of Islam.
pongidae rex says
A speech Obama gave at the UN was an impeachable offence. In it he said there should be an international law that made it a ‘crime’ to ‘slander’ the so-called ‘prophet’ Mohammad. That was a direct contradiction of the US Constitution that guarantees freedom of speech. Someone needs to remind our Muslim in Chief that even if it is an infidel constitution, he has sworn to uphold and defend it.
So we have a worthless congress that will impeach a president over a BJ in the oval office, but will not impeach a president that makes a treasonous statement in front of the UN. Pathetic. The next election cannot get here soon enough and I voted for this clown TWICE.
Remember the photo of Obama groveling at the feet of the king of Saudi Arabia, the leading funder of terrorism in the world. Can you imagine a photo of Vladimir Putin in a position like that? I didn’t think so.
Clare says
Your post reminded me to write my Congressman today as follows:
Would you please explain to me what the President would have to do that he hasn’t already done to bring the Articles of Impeachment to the floor of the Congress?
I think, as many people have already said, too, that I I will publicize if my Senators would vote against Impeachment of the President.
Kepha says
Our Alinsky-in-chief also spat on the Free Exercise Clause. As a Christian, I take the right to say Muhammad was no prophet of God at all regardless of what the O says.
duh_swami says
Rasool Obama has no problem honoring Islam. He does it several times a day.
Charli Main says
Imam Obama is well qualified to lead all his Muslim brothers in prayer, while at the Mosque. I have no doubt that he has had plenty of practice, banging his head on the floor, while facing Mecca.
Angemon says
“The visit to the mosque, built in 1922 on the site of a church, is being greatly anticipated, with Muslim scholars here saying it would further emphasise the president’s commitment to reach out to the Muslim world.
[…]
“There can be no better way for Obama to honour Islam than by visiting Masjid Negara. It will be interesting to know what he has to say about the mosque and Islam,” he added yesterday.
Johor Islamic Council adviser Datuk Nooh Gadut said that although Obama was not compelled to visit the mosque, his choice to do so meant a lot to Muslims in Malaysia and around the world.
“It shows that the president is sensitive and also that he wants to get closer to the Muslim world,” he added.
[…]
“Some, especially the younger generation, have forgotten about it but President Obama obviously knows the significance of the mosque to Malaysia.
As if muslims don’t know where Obama stands regarding islam. I’d like to see Obama visit the Cordoba Cathedral (a Goth church turned mosque to celebrate the islamic conquest turned church to celebrate the Reconquista). Muslims aren’t allowed to pray in there (even though they’ve been lobbying for it) and a few years ago a group of muslims severely beat the security guards who told them they were not allowed to pray.
Walter Sieruk says
This reminds me that a church at a four night lecture series that I attended about the sublect of Islam in Auguest 2010 during thequestioin and answer part, someone asked “Is Obama a Muslim ?” One of the speakers who was in times past an Iranian citizen ,a Muslim and Hezbollah member but now a Christian and an American citizen asnswered “I don’t know if he a a Muslim but his deception is Islamic.” Furthermore of Obama he added “Whenever he speaks he sounds just like a Muslim.” Moreover he also stated of Obama that “He is going to hurt this country.” Since this in now the year 2014 that speakers words have very much been proven true by the actions of Obama himself. Just to give two example out of many,First is the hoax of Obamacare which has done nothing but harm. Second,the great cuts in the defense spending in the US military. The list can go on.
Salah says
“Despite all this, Obama will utter the same platitudes he has uttered before…”
Indeed he will. Why? because NO ONE is trying to stop him. The Right is slowly dying, the Left is in bed with the enemy, the People is SILENT.
“..despite the spectacular failure of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt..”
Indeed it WAS spectacular. Why? because the people, the WHOLE PEOPLE stood up to Tyranny.
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-end-of-muslim-brotherhood.html
Brian Hoff says
The Muslim Brotherhood isnot destory since it is than international group.
voegelinian says
I love Brian’s use (viz., misuse) of the conjunction than. 🙂
Mazo says
Obama is desperately trying to break Malaysia away from forming closer ties with China, this is the reason for his visit.
Asian countries of different religions should continue to seek closer ties with each other.
“Mahathir: China no threat to Malaysia”
http://www.thestar.com.my/story.aspx/?file=%2f2010%2f4%2f27%2fbusiness%2f6136931&sec=business
“Lucrative China-Malaysia relations not derailed by search for MH370”
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/06/business/malaysia-china-relations-trade-mh370/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/china-buddhist-monks-training-to-defend-against-jihad-terror-attacks/comment-page-1#comment-1033851
Although some Malay states like Kedah were Muslim in the 11th century, it was Parameswara who converted along with most of the Malays in the early 1400s.
The Thai forced the Malays into vassalage after conquing the entire Malay peninsula before most Malays became Muslims. Note that is said Parameswara converted to Islam, changed his name to Iskandar Shah, and then he asked China for help in gaining independence from Thailand and created the Malacca Sultanate as a protectorate of China.
The Sulu state, Mindanao, and Brunei had relations with China before they became Muslim Sultanates. In fact, historians say that China in part played a rolein making them Muslim, China sent Arabs as ambassadors to Brunei like p’u-kung-chih- mu and P’u Lu-hsieh and they proselytized Islam. (for some reason western and Brunei historians still use Wade Giles romanization for their names).
The Arab Makhdum Karim arrived on Mindanao in a Chinese junk to proselytize Islam to the Maguindanao Moros.
The Ming dynasty China sent Muslim officers to Sulu to proselytize Islam to the Tausug Moros, along with Arabs.
The Spanish attacks on the Moros in fact only increased Islamization among the animist peoples of Mindanao, as resistance to the Spanish became identified with Islam.
Many of the Muslim Sultanates in southeast asia like Sulu, Malacca, and Samudra Pasai were founded with Chinese approval and were protectorates and tributaries of China. They looked to China for protection and as a source of authority, like how alot of countries in NATO do for the USA.
The Malay Sultans (and formerely the Sulu Sultans) even wear yellow robes which were originally inspired by the yellow robes of the Chinese Emperors.
It was the Aceh Sultanate on the other hand, which looked to the Ottoman Empire for protection, invoked the name of the Ottoman Sultan and dressed like him.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1013083
Most of the Sultanates in southeast asia were peaceful until provoked and invaded by the colonialists, Moros started raiding the Philippines only after Spain started attacking them.
In fact they were mosly on the receiving end of violence. Thailand (Ayutthaya) had long dominated the Malay states by attacking them, and reducing them to vassal status, forcing Malay Kings to acknowledge the Thai King as their lord and pay tribute. Around 1400, Parameswara converted to Islam, changed his name to Iskandar Shah and paid tribute to China, asking the Chinese for help against Thailand. The Chinese then placed the Malacca Sultanate under Chinese protection and forced the Thai to give up their overlord status over the Malays.
The Portuguese too were reknown for their piratical activities by the Chinese. The Portuguese conquered the Malacca Sultanate in 1511 and brutally sacked the city, massacring thousands of civilians and enslaving people. They then tried to enter relations with China, but the Malay Sultan sent a letter to China about the Portuguese invasion. After that, China imprisoned and executed the Portuguese delegation, defeating the Portuguese twice at Tamao, and wiping out Portuguese pirates along the coast of China, demanding that the Portuguese restore the Malay Sultan to his throne.
Thailand was free to resume its attacks on the Malays again after the fall of Malacca. Again, Thailand reduced Malay Sultanates like Pattani and Kelantan to vassalage, forcing the Malay Sultans to pay alleigance to Thailand. After several Malay rebellions against the Thai, the Thai split Pattani into several vassal Sultanates. The British in 1909 demanded that the Thai cede Kedah to Thai rule, after signing a treaty with the British, the Thai then directly annexed Pattani as a province instead of being just a vassal state, since they didn’t want the British taking anymore, that is why there is an insurgency in Thailand today.
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“Obama is desperately trying to break Malaysia away from forming closer ties with China, this is the reason for his visit.”
Hey Mazo. didn’t know you’re Obama’s PR now. When were you hired? Maybe you should talk to Abdullah Md Zin, he believes that Obama’s is all about trying to honor islam rather than trying to get Malaysia away from China.
James Foard says
Thanks for the insight. Pinyin is definitely superior to Wade-Giles.
gravenimage says
Once again, Mazo would have us believe that this has nothing to do with Islam.
Nope—all that dhimmitude, pandering, and appeasement is just sharp international public relations…sarc/off
johnhoward says
Come on american.since when masjid negara built on the site of a church?there was no church here before.
Seriously you are all idiot. Believe an article like this without see the fact with your own eyes..
He pay the visit just because he wants relationship between two countries remain closer rather than the past time,we are a bit hostile with you all because your fucking bush administration that attacked iraq and afganistan without knowing the consequences.now immigration and arab dispersed like shit to all part of the world bacause your fucking bush policy.obama want american influence here because right now china started to show its rude policy in south east region.
Obama visit mosque?so,what’s the matter with you guy?of course,he visit mosque because this is islamic country.obama visit japan today.does he visit the church, no, right?he will. Visit meiji shrine anyway because most of Japanese are shinto religion,not Christianity.
Lastly,to all american idiot,you should know the fact that majority of muslim is not arab.it is the asian.
In american,Christian dont use Allah as a God in bible.but here Christian want to use Allah name in the bible.but cannout use it because court intervention.american Christian say allah do not same as a god.in Malaysia, Christian said allah and god the same thing.what a confusing religion.so who’s your god, christian?jesus or allah.
Mazo says
now immigration and arab dispersed like shit to all part of the world bacause your fucking bush policy.
Malaysia, Singapore Indonesia have historically been subject to Arab migration from Hadhramawt, with many prominent Arabs influential in the region like the Alsagoff family, show some respect to the people who built much of Malaysia’s commerce instead of comparing them to fecal matter, I doubt Malays would have built anything on their own without them.
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“I doubt Malays would have built anything on their own without them.”
This is the standard muslim approach to other cultures. They despise whatever was before islam and what they can’t rob they demonize. It’s not unusual to see this kind of despise for native population and culture in muslim conquered areas.
Let me tell you something kid: Greeks, Romans, Persians, Chinese, Egyptians and Hindus had build civilizations far greater than muslims ever did on their own. Muslims only excelled at robbing those civilizations blind and doing a handful of derivative works based on what they robbed, so to stop acting like a xenophobe, supremacist prick. Without muslim invasions there would have been no Dark Ages.
Brian Hoff says
The western Roman Empire fall in the 5th century while Islam was born in the 7th century about 200 year after the fall of the western roman empire.So stop blame Islam and muslim for the fall of the roman empire the writer of the decline and call of the roman empire put foth that idea as he was against Islam none of the other scholars support his idea.
Angemon says
The obfuscatory Brian Hoff posted:
“The western Roman Empire fall in the 5th century while Islam was born in the 7th century about 200 year after the fall of the western roman empire.So stop blame Islam and muslim for the fall of the roman empire”
Notice what i said – “without muslim invasions there would have been no Dark Ages” – and notice what he claims i said – “muslims destroyed the Western Roman Empire”. What he says doesn’t match with what i said, does it? It seems that honesty to Brian is what sunlight is to vampires.
And notice even more obfuscation: he starts by saying that the Western Roman Empire fell on the 5th century and them proceeds to say that islam or muslims had nothing to do with the fall of the Roman Empire. Not the Western Roman Empire he mentioned, simply the Roman Empire. Truth is, the Western Roman Empire didn’t “fell”. The “barbarians” who “destroyed” the Western Roman Empire were used to live under Roman law and costumes, and they took that knowledge with them. The Goths settled in Iberia, the Vandals settled in North Africa, but they still spoke Latin, they used roman-like laws, they used roman knowledge on their daily lives, they chieftains sent their children to the Eastern Roman Empire to be educated according to Roman standards, and we’re supposed to believe that Goths and Vandals caused the Dark Ages? Sorry, but it just doesn’t add up.
And here’s the thing: Eastern Roman Empire. While the Western Roman Empire disintegrated and lost influence, things didn’t change a lot in the Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantium. For all intents and purposes, the “barbarians” still pledged alliance to the Eastern Roman Empire, science and culture were going on strong, wars were being waged against the Persians for the title of “Greatest Power of its Epoch”.
So what happened to cause the Dark Ages? Arab muslim barbarians attacked the Byzantine and Persian empires, who were weakened after decades of fighting one another. The arab muslims came and destroyed the classic knowledge. For example, in 642 AD, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of Amr ibn al `Aas. According to arabic sources, caliph Omar ordered the destruction of the library. Omar is quoted saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: “If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them”. The bits and pieces of the Classical Era that we still have today didn’t survive because of muslims, they survived DESPITE of muslims doing their best to destroy them. Virtually all the classical literature that has survived into modern times did so through the efforts of Christian monks, not islamic philosophers.
In fact, one can even make the case that the type of theocracy which took shape in Europe, and some of the underlying ideas associated with it, very definitely derived from islam. From its inception islam regarded apostasy and heresy as capital offenses, and after the death of Muhammad erupted serious and extremely violent disputes over conflicting claims to the leadership of the movement (sunni and shia, anyone?). Assassination and murder was the order of the day. Even those with no leadership pretensions, but with heterodox views, were subject to violent suppression. The most notorious early example is found in the fate of Mansur Al-Hallaj, who was tortured and blinded before being crucified.
Medieval Christianity, beginning in the late twelfth/early thirteenth century, adopted the same attitude. Christians now had their own Inquisition for exposing heretics, and the death penalty was now prescribed for such miscreants. The judicial use of torture too, unheard of at the time, became accepted practice. All of these practices were in fact novel in Europe of the eleventh or twelfth century. The barbarous treatment of criminals and dissidents (which had been customary in Imperial Rome) was phased out during the early Christian centuries. Constantine abolished crucifixion as a form of execution, and attempted to do away with gladiatorial displays. These were finally abolished in the time of Honorius (early fifth century). The condition of slaves was dramatically improved by the Christianization of the Empire, and the Church worked to end the institution entirely – a goal finally accomplished by the eighth or perhaps ninth century. Torture of prisoners, routine in Imperial Rome, was gradually done away with around the same time. Nor is there any evidence, in the early Christian centuries, of the lethal intolerance which characterized the Inquisition. It is true that in the early centuries the Church was involved in a series of prolonged and bitter disputes over the correct interpretation of Christ’s life and mission. Those who disagreed with the mainstream dogmas, as laid down by various Councils, were decreed to be heretics, and fairly severe condemnation of these people and groups was common. Yet, intemperate as was the language used in these disputes, they rarely turned violent; and even when they did, the violence was on a very small scale and invariably perpetrated by those with no official sanction or approval. And the use of force to enforce orthodoxy was condemned by all the Church Fathers. Now, compare that with the islamic orthodoxy: apostates are to be killed and speaking ill of muhammad is punishable by death, even if what you’re saying is true.
Brian’s argument has been proved to be based on sleight-of-hand and blatant attempts at misinformation.
“the writer of the decline and call of the roman empire put foth that idea as he was against Islam”
Prove it.
“none of the other scholars support his idea.”
Actually, there are several scholars who agree that the Dark Ages were caused by the muslim invasions. Henri Pirenne was shunned for his views but, as time goes by, more scholars are admitting he was on to something. In the years after the Classical Civilization (which was by then synonymous with Christendom), Europe came into contact with a new force, one that extolled war as a sacred duty, sanctioned the enslavement and killing of non-believers as a religious obligation, sanctioned the judicial use of torture, and provided for the execution of apostates and heretics. All of these attitudes, which, taken together, are surely unique in the religious traditions of mankind, can be traced to the very beginnings of that faith. Far from being manifestations of a degenerate phase of Islam, all of them go back to the founder of the faith himself. Yet, astonishingly enough, this is a religion and an ideology which is still extolled by academics and artists as enlightened and tolerant.
By around 650 almost half the Christian world was lost to this new and “enlightened” faith; and by 715 the remainder was in serious danger. These events had an enormous impact. The closure of the Mediterranean meant the impoverishment of Western Europe, which was then compelled to improvise as best it could. The lack of papyrus forced the use of the immensely expensive parchment, leading naturally to a serious decline in literacy. The Viking Wars, which the islamic invasions elicited, brought enormous disruption also to the northern part of the continent. Desperate for a unifying force that could bring together all the Germanic kingdoms of the West for the defense of Christendom, the Western Empire was re-established, and Constantinople, fighting for her very survival, could do little about it.
Western culture changed radically. For the first time, Christians began to think in terms of Holy War, and the whole theology of the faith went into a sate of flux. This great transformation began in the years after 650, and the phenomenon we call “Crusading” began, properly speaking, in southern Italy and more especially Spain, during the seventh and eighth centuries, as Christians fought a desperate rearguard action to save what they could from the advancing Saracens. This action was to develop into a protracted struggle that was to last for centuries, and was to have a profound and devastating effect upon European civilization. Above all, it meant, by sheer impact of force and time, the gradual adoption by the Christians of many of the characteristics of their Muslim foes, like the aforementioned death penalty for apostates and heretics.
As well as this direct influence, there was the barbarizing effect of the continual war into which the whole Mediterranean littoral was now plunged. The arrival of islam brought to a definitive end the peace of the Mediterranean, the pax Romana that had even survived the fall of Rome. With the appearance of islam, the Mediterranean was no longer a highway, but a frontier, and a frontier of the most dangerous kind. Piracy, rapine, and slaughter became the norm – for a thousand years! And this is something that has been almost completely overlooked by historians, especially those of northern European extraction. For the latter in particular, the Mediterranean is viewed in the light of classical history. So bewitched have educated Europeans been by the civilizations of Greece and Rome, that they have treated the more recent part of Mediterranean history – over a thousand years of it – as if it never existed. The visitor to Mediterranean lands, perhaps on the Grand Tour, was shown the monuments of the classical world; here Caesar fought a battle, there Anthony brought his fleet, etc.
This distorted and romanticized view of the Mediterranean and its past, which ignored the savagery and fear of the past millennium, was particularly characteristic of those of Anglo-Saxon origin, with whom there was the added problem of religious antagonism. With the reign of Elizabeth I, England became the mortal enemy of Catholic Europe; and the Catholic power of the time was of course Spain. From this point on, English-speaking historians tended to be heavily biased against Catholic Spain and, unsurprisingly, extremely favorable towards Spain’s Muslim enemies, who were romanticized and portrayed as cultured and urbane. It was then that the myth of the “golden age” of the Spanish Caliphate was born – a myth which, as we have seen, still has a very wide circulation.
Yet the reality was quite different: with the Muslim conquest of North Africa and Spain, a reign of terror was to commence that was to last for centuries. The war in Spain dragged on until the fifteenth century. By then, a new front was opened in Italy, as the rising power of the Ottoman Turks, having already engulfed Greece and the Balkans, threatened to penetrate Italy. This danger remained active and alive for the next three centuries, until the Turks were finally beaten back at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Meanwhile, the Pope was ready to flee from Rome on more than one occasion, as Ottoman fleets scoured the Adriatic and Ionian Seas. After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, it seemed that all of central Europe, including Hungary and Austria, was about to be overwhelmed; and though the imminent danger was averted by the victory of John Hunyadi at Belgrade (1456), it was renewed again in the sixteenth century, when an enormous Turkish invasion force was stopped by the Holy League at the naval battle of Lepanto (1571). And it is worth noting here that the Turkish losses at Lepanto, comprising 30,000 men and 200 out of 230 warships, did not prevent them returning the following year with another enormous fleet: Which speaks volumes for their persistence and the perennial nature of the threat they posed. A short time before this, in the 1530s, the Turks had extended their rule westwards along the North African coast as far as Morocco, where they encouraged an intensification of slaving raids against Christian communities in southern Europe. Fleets of Muslim pirates brought devastation to the coastal regions of Italy, Spain, southern France, and Greece. The Christians of the islands, in particular, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearics, had to get used to savage pirate raids, bent on rape and pillage. back then, it was taken for granted that there could never be peace with the Islamic world. How could it be otherwise, when making war against the infidel was a religious duty for every Muslim? Here’s what the fourteenth century islamic historian Ibn Khaldun had to say about it:
“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united [in Islam], so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them [religion and politics] at the same time.”
Now, Ibn Khaldun was a native of Andalusia, and al-andalous is commonly brought up by muslim and islamic apologists as the flagship of islamic tolerance. Makes ya wonder, doesn’t it?
No, i stand by what i said: without muslim invasions there would have been no Dark Ages.
sidney penny says
Islam built nothing original ,only destroyed.
Fighting wars most of the time,no time to build.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples1/
HINDU TEMPLES WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM
Volume 1 A Preliminary Survey
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples2/
HINDU TEMPLES WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM
Volume II The Islamic Evidence
(Second Enlarged Edition)
Mazo says
Roman and Greek civilization are plagarisations of Babylonian and
Phonecian and other middle eastern civilizations.
And FYI JohnHoward is a Malay Muslim and he just compared
Arabs to feces, so I have no idea what you are talking about Muslims demonizing other cultures.
Angemon says
Mazo attempted to muddy the waters by posting:
“Roman and Greek civilization are plagarisations of Babylonian and Phonecian and other middle eastern civilizations. ”
Here’s what he’s responding to:
“Greeks, Romans, Persians, Chinese, Egyptians and Hindus had build civilizations far greater than muslims ever did on their own. Muslims only excelled at robbing those civilizations blind and doing a handful of derivative works based on what they robbed”
Were Babylonians and Phoenicians muslims? They weren’t? Well, then his idiotic accusation of Romans and Greeks plagiarizing Babylonians and Phoenicians makes no sense, does it? It’s completely unrelated to what i said: that muslims made no civilization of their own and only excelled at robbing other civilizations, which is the truth. We have historical records of the muslim arabs pouring out of arabia and conquering other nations, using converts from conquered nations to replenish their armies and moving on to the next non-muslim nation. Rinse and repeat until they conquered everything or get their asses handed to them.
Another thing to notice is that i’ve frequently talked about Europe, and in which European countries i’ve lived and look and behold, Mazo only decides to pick on the Greeks and Romans, the only European civilizations from the ones i mentioned. Coincidence? You decide.
“And FYI JohnHoward is a Malay Muslim”
I don’t see how that matters, but ok, point taken.
“and he just compared Arabs to feces”
Actually, what he said was that “arab dispersed like shit to all part of the world bacause your fucking bush policy“.
Saying “arabs spread like shit” isn’t the same as saying “arabs are comparable to shit”. The comparison with shit is being made with how arabs spread, not with arabs themselves (unless john indeed meant to say arabs are shit, but if that’s the case he picked a weird, longer way of saying it that ends up by not saying it at all). But i guess your grasp of English isn’t good enough to get those obvious nuances.
gravenimage says
“Brian Hoff” wrote:
The western Roman Empire fall in the 5th century while Islam was born in the 7th century about 200 year after the fall of the western roman empire.So stop blame Islam and muslim for the fall of the roman empire
…………………………….
Angemon has a good reply to this idiocy.
Certainly, the appalling Mohammed took advantage of a world weakened by the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire—but it also did a great deal to cut Europe off from the Mediterranean and to threaten the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium).
The Muslim hordes also swarmed into and destroyed Visigothic Spain, which had retained many Roman laws.
Even more destructively, it destroyed the whole of the culturally Roman and Christian Mahgreb.
One can argue that Islam did not cause the Dark Ages—rather, it was an ugly product of the Dark Ages, and did a great deal to prolong that grim period. *Ugh*.
gravenimage says
Mazo wrote:
Roman and Greek civilization are plagarisations of Babylonian and
Phonecian and other middle eastern civilizations.
………………………………..
Good God, where to start? For one thing, no one who knows anything about history or archeology would say that a culture is a “plagarisation” of another one.
This is not how cultural transmission works.
But further, to describe Greek and Roman civilization as nothing more than a “plagarisation” of the Near and Middle East is to completely miss the contribution of Greek philosophy and art, and Roman law and politics. These cultures marked the beginning of reasoned and proto-scientific thought, the concept (if not the true application) of the democracy and the republic, and the concept of the individual.
But why not? Someone like Mazo has not respect for such concepts, so it is hardly surprising that he would miss this.
More:
And FYI JohnHoward is a Malay Muslim and he just compared
Arabs to feces, so I have no idea what you are talking about Muslims demonizing other cultures.
………………………………..
This is nothing unusual. Iranians regularly disparage Arab Muslims, as well, and Arabs disparage sub-Saharan Muslims. This is quite common.
Angemon says
johnhoward posted:
“arab dispersed like shit to all part of the world”
They starting dispersing like shit to all part of the world around the 7th century, 1400 years before Bush.
“most of Japanese are shinto religion,not Christianity.”
And yet, more and more Shintoists are marrying in a Western-style wedding, often at a dedicated wedding chapel…
“majority of muslim is not arab.it is the asian.”
And yet, asian muslims need to pray and recite the quran in arabic, just like all the rest, since islam is an arab supremacist religion. In fact, the Umayyad caliphate had 4 social classes. From top to bottom: arab muslims, non-arab muslims, dhimmi and slaves. All that despise for the non-arabs came back to bite them in the ass though.
gravenimage says
Where to start? “john howard” wrote:
Come on american.since when masjid negara built on the site of a church?there was no church here before.
Seriously you are all idiot. Believe an article like this without see the fact with your own eyes..
…………………………………………..
This article was not written by some Western “Islamophobe”, but by Zuhrin Azam Ahmad of the well-known Malaysian paper The Star..
This is not something Infidels are “accusing” Muslims of—this is something they are readily putting forward themselves.
More:
He pay the visit just because he wants relationship between two countries remain closer rather than the past time,we are a bit hostile with you all because your fucking bush administration that attacked iraq and afganistan without knowing the consequences.
…………………………………………..
Yes—how dare we resist Jihad in any way? Nad Infidels…
More:
…now immigration and arab dispersed like shit to all part of the world bacause your fucking bush policy.
…………………………………………..
Muslim incursions into the West much predate the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Moreover, Afghans are *not* Arabs—though they are, of course, Muslims.
More:
Obama visit mosque?so,what’s the matter with you guy?of course,he visit mosque because this is islamic country.
…………………………………………..
The idea that this somehow routine is utterly false. From the article:
“Religious Adviser to Prime Minister Tan Sri Dr Abdullah Md Zin said it was ‘not common’ for a leader of a superpower to include a visit to a mosque in their itinerary.
More:
Lastly,to all american idiot,you should know the fact that majority of muslim is not arab.it is the asian.
…………………………………………
Where did anyone here claim that the majority of Muslims are Arab? Virtually everyone reading here is familiar with Muslim demographics.
Moreover, we know that this is essentially irrelevant. Asian Muslims, Arab Muslims, sub-Saharan Muslims, white European Muslims et al all follow the same vicious creed, and all pose an existential danger to Infidels all over the world.
More:
In american,Christian dont use Allah as a God in bible.but here Christian want to use Allah name in the bible.but cannout use it because court intervention.american Christian say allah do not same as a god.in Malaysia, Christian said allah and god the same thing.what a confusing religion.so who’s your god, christian?jesus or allah.
…………………………………………
Actually, this is not “confusing” in the least. The ban on Christians using “Allah” in Malaysia is more predictable Muslim supremacy—the same sort of dhimmitude Muslims impose on Infidels wherever they are in power.
In fact, this story has been covered extensively here at Jihad Watch for the past several years.
As for saying that the Allah of the Qur’an is not the same figure as the God of the Torah and Bible, this is also quite accurate.
It is not the semantics of the name, but a characterization of the great difference between the bloodthirsty God of Islam and the loving God of Christianity.
Concerned says
This just goes to prove: Obama is a Muslim, is a Muslim, IS A MUSLIM!!!
Mazo says
The site was a “Gospel Hall” Assembly site, not a Church.
http://www.brethrenpedia.com/Malaysia
Early assembly missionaries from Plymouth, England, arrived in Kuala Lumpur in 1891 and Bluff Road Gospel Hall was built in 1897. For the next twenty-five years the witness grew and the work was consolidated. Mr and Mrs T. R. Angus from Scotland were sterling examples of sacrificial service as they visited homes and believers were encouraged in their growth.
The next forty years commenced with the opening of Venning Road Gospel Hall in 1922. Local believers and overseas missionaries continued to consolidate the work. In 1931 Mr David Angus joined his father to continue the service the hallmark of which was grace and humility. During the war years Mr Angus and other missionaries suffered imprisonment at the hands of the Japanese invaders. He survived the horrors of prison with fortitude and emerged with a new understanding of the people in the country of mixed nationalities he had come to serve.
A Chinese Girls’ School was opened in 1893 and became the well known Bukit Bintang Girls’ School in 1930. Through the school, many homes were opened to the gospel. Under the leadership of Miss Mary Glasgow and, later, Miss E. M. Cooke, the school grew in renown and over the years many thousands of girls came to know the Saviour. As the population of Kuala Lumpur spread out to its satellite towns, the Bukit Bintang Boys’ School was built in 1957. The Petaling Jaya Gospel Hall was established in 1959. In 1962 the assembly site in Venning Road was appropriated by the government as the place to build the National Mosque and a site at Imbi Road close to the Girls’ School was offered in its place and while the new hall was being built the assembly met in the school. These were days of exciting growth and expansion both for the assembly and the schools. In 1968 the elders introduced a systematic study of God’s word and the teaching of the fundamental truths of the Christian faith after the Sunday remembrance meetings. This practice is continued to this day.
Steffen Larsen says
Look up the etymology of “church”.
It means “The Lord’s (assembly/house)”, from the Greek.
gravenimage says
A “Gospel Hall” *is* a church. What a cretin.
chumachil says
Hey! Chumachil here from EoZ.
Tell Obama that (Peninsular) Malaysia used to be a Hindu-Buddhist domain, and ask every Malay about his/her surname.
Remember: Wahhabist Islam is poisoning traditional Malay culture
dumbledoresarmy says
Above, mazo the chinese mohammedan (who has, above, shown his slavish devotion to the Arab national, or indeed, imperial Cult of blood and war) claimed that a Gospel Hall was not a church.
Sez he – “The site was a “Gospel Hall” Assembly site, not a Church.”
ROFLMAO.
Any building that is regularly used for Christian meeting, worship, prayer and teaching is a church building. A “Gospel Hall” is basically just another word for a Church.
veggiedog says
3years cannot come soon enough
mazo says
Voldemortsarmy ignores the fact that the Malay Muslim poster I responded to was blatantly insulting Arabs.
It was actually westerners who promoted the myth of southeast Asian peoples like Malays of being”lazy” discouraging them from commerce resulting in Chinese and Arab migration top southeast Asia top take over their economy
Angemon says
Here’s what Mazo said about Malaysians on this very topic:
“I doubt Malays would have built anything on their own without them [arabs]”
Here’s what he’s saying now:
“It was actually westerners who promoted the myth of southeast Asian peoples like Malays of being”lazy””
Seems that, according to Mazo, Malaysians wouldn’t amount to much without the Arabs, but it’s the westerners fault for spreading the myth that Malaysians are “lazy”.
Mazo says
Westerners told southeast asians that they were naturally slothful, lazy people so that tons of Arabs and Chinese merchants came over to take over commerce and Chinese and Indian labor came over to work in the fields and mines, while Malays would do nothing.
Westerners even put Chineese and Arabs into different category than natives in the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), and Chinese and Indians into different categories than natives in Malaya.
According to these categories in the East Indies, “natives” were heavily restricted in doing commerce and trade, while “foreign orientals” like Arab and Chinese were priveleged in economic matters, and “Europeans” were rulers of the country.
voegelinian says
“So, by Mazo standards, when muslims are the oppressors religion doesn’t matter, but when muslims are being oppressed, even if by other muslims, religion matters.”
One can sense quite palpably that both Mazo and Semeru do this because they feel (or they pretend to feel) that we are doing the opposite; so they are anxiously trying to right what they consider a wrong by manhandling the steering wheel and careering the car dangerously way over on the other side of the road.
However, not only is their attempt at a Tu Quoque (or rather more accurately “Tu Solus”) flawed for the standard reason that they are hypocritically doing what they are accusing us (as Angemon points out), but perhaps more importantly because in fact the mountain of evidence upon which we rest here in Jihad Watch (and it’s only one mountain out of a veritable mountain range) indicates that one religion is to be indicted — Islam– and not other religions.
As for the odd Christian general or colonel or whatever complicit in the Timor massacres, that’s easy: same phenomenon as dhimmi Christians in the Middle East (think, for example, Saddam Hussein’s Christian Foreign Minister, Tariq Aziz). I.e., even when Christians can be found doing foul ugly stuff in the context of the Muslim world, we can still blame Islam, via the phenomenon of dhimmitude.
Mazo says
LMAO, vogon does not know what he is talking about, Dictator Suharto had an entire cohort of top ranking Christian Generals who implemented anti-Islamist policies, naming political Islam as a threat to Indonesia. One of these Generals, Syafei, said that a pious Muslim should never rule Indonesia, and he even went on anti-Islamist political tours, openly insulting Islam and the Qur’an and Syafei committed many massacres in East Timor.
the top Christian General who invaded East Timor, General Moerdani, openly attacked Islamists and cracked down on pious Muslims in the military.
Indonesia under Suharto was a pro-western, anti-Islamist, and anti-Communist country dominated by ethnic Javanese.
Suharto’s regime butchered hundreds of thousands of Muslim Acehnese, East Timorese, West Papuans, Chinese, Darul Islam Islamists, and Communists, with the support of the West. The west supported his dictatorship and massacres.
Australia and America supported Indonesia’s invasion and occupation of East Timor, labeling the East Timorese FRETILIN
as “Communist”. The anti-Indonesian resistance FRETILIN had an Arab Muslim leader, Mari Alkatiri, who was close to China.
It was Muammar Gaddafi of Libya who armed and trained
Islamist Acehnese, animist and Christian East Timorese, and West Papuan separatists to fight the pro western Indonesian government.
Mazo says
Indonesia used non-Muslim Batak (animist or Christian) troops to fight Islamist Acehnese insurgents in Sumatra.
Angemon says
I’m laughing my ass of at Mazo. He quotes semeru regarding the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and then claims he’s not pro-Indonesia.
Truth is, Mazo/Semeru’s (look! im using their names interchangeably, i must be accusing them of being the same person, lol!) arguments are ad verbatim the same than a indonesian i met while in college. I was at a bar with some friends and he had the nasty habit of latching on to our group. Back then we were young, naive and too well-mannered to straight out tell someone “can’t you take the hints? go bother somewhere else, you’re creeping out the girls” when the TV talked about the Santa Cruz massacre and the situation in East Timor (this was early 2000’s, when East Timor regained its independence from Indonesia). So one of my friends told him “no wonder your parents moved out of Indonesia, with your your repressive dictatorship of a government”. BAd call. He went on a shouting rant about how christians and the US were the ones to blame for the invasion, that christian east timorese were the ones committing the murders to blame muslims and something about a zionist conspiracy. Now, he was a engineering student who grew up in a Western country and was studying in college in a Western country, not an ignorant farmer on Aceh. That was the last drop, we flat out told him either he apologized or he’d need to find other people to hang out with. Well, he did neither of those things. He demanded we apologized and caused a scene, ending up getting expelled by the bouncer. Since we didn’t apologize he went to the board and made a formal complaint about how racist and bigoted we were. Short story made shorter, the board found his accusations unsubstantiated, attributed his behaviour to “cultural differences” and he was allowed to stay at the uni (neither we nor him had to apologize). A couple of weeks later he was expelled because he kept starting arguments with me and my friends, both in and out of class, including almost starting a brawl in a class lectured by the head teacher of the engineering department.
voegelinian says
It doesn’t matter how many non-Muslims Mazo can trot out; Islam is still to blame, via the sociopolitical psychocultural phenomenon of dhimmitude.
Mazo says
@Vogon
This “dhimmi” General Syafei as you called him, INSULTED THE QURAN AND ISLAM. He said that a pious Muslim should NEVER rule Indonesia.
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
He was responsible for butchering East Timorese during Suharto’s rule, with American support.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
America and Australia set up an arms blockade around East Timor, helping Indonesia, stopping China and Libya from arming the FRETILIN resistance.
gravenimage says
Mazo appears to believe he is being “witty” calling the erudite Voegelinian “Vogon”—the name of an unpleasant alien species from “the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”—but really, it just makes him look incapable of spelling.
Immature, in any case.
voegelinian says
Mazo should know from experience with his own culture; as pretty much any back room of a 7-11 or tobacco haberdashery can be (and often is) a mosque.
dumbledoresarmy says
A poster above tries to blame “Wahabbist Islam” for the bad behaviour of Mohammedans in Muslim-majority Malaysia.
Which is a common deflection/ evasion ploy that one sees, from time to time. “it’s all the fault of those eeevil Wahabbis!”
Sorry, I’m not buying.
In the end, Islam is Islam is Islam.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-lesson-of-algeria-islam-is-indivisible-1566770.html
CONOR CRUISE O’BRIEN
Friday 6 January 1995
The lesson of Algeria: Islam is indivisible
Jihad was being waged, infidels were enslaved and raped and robbed and butchered by the hundreds of thousands, sharia was being pushed, dhimmified indigenous populations were being treated like sh*t, all in sedulous imitation of the deadly example of Mohammed the Mad and in obedience to the diktats set down in the Quran and Hadith and their authoritative interpreters, *centuries* before ever the founder of the Wahabbi revival was born.
Shiite or Sunni, Wahabbi or Sufi or whatever, it’s all Islam, in the end, and it’s all …in the end…a Program for unloosing, enabling and sacralising all the cruellest and darkest impulses that lurk in the depths of the human psyche.
Angemon says
“A poster above tries to blame “Wahabbist Islam” for the bad behaviour of Mohammedans in Muslim-majority Malaysia.”
Is it one of those who tried to blame “Wahabbist Islam” for the bad behaviour of Mohammedans in Muslim-majority Indonesia and pin the invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese on Timorese christians while refuting Indonesia had anything to do with it?
Mazo says
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/indonesia-sharia-to-apply-to-non-muslims-in-aceh/comment-page-1#comment-1028849
Semeru
March 28, 2014 at 3:38 am
What’s your excuse for the state-sanctioned genocide committed by Indonesian muslimes in E. Timor
Wow, Another jihad watcher who so full of anti muslim malice spewing lies.
Fact #1 The actual architect of the 1975 invasion was a stern army general known as Benny Moerdani. The most powerful of commanders to serve under Suharto, Moerdani was a conservative Javanese Catholic, not only that, it was Moerdani who broke a cease-fire
Fact #2 Benny Moerdani was not the only high ranking christian army officer involved with East Timor.
Here are just a few more
Major General Theo Syafei, a Buginese Christian
LtGen Johny Josephus Lumintang a Protestant born in Menado, northern Sulawesi
MajGen (ret) Sintong Panjaitan
LtGen Tyasno Sudarto a Central Javanese Christian born in 1948
The mass murders and atrocities by the Indonesians were conducted by Indonesia’s pro western, anti-communist Indonesian government, which had many Christian Generals in its military.
The leader of FRETELIN, which fought the Indonesian occupation of
East Timor, was the Arab Muslim Mari Alkatiri.
The Indonesian military also used non-Muslim Christian Batak troops on Sumatra to crush Muslim Islamist Acehnese insurgents. Indonesian troops committed killings and rapes against Muslim Acehnese.
Indonesia was and is a Javanese dominated, pro-western, American allied, anti-communist country, which crushed and massacred both Communists and Islamists like Darul Islam, butchering Muslim Acehnese, Timorese, Papuans, Chinese etc.
The Javanese dominated Indonesia committed atrocities against minorities, with Javanese Catholic Generals like Moerdani and Sudarto butchering Timorese.
Indonesia settled Hindu Balinese and Javanese Catholics on these newly colonized lands in East Timor.
Indonesia also settled Muslim Javanese on Muslim Acehnese land, and settled Muslim Madurese on Muslim Malay and animist Dayak land in Borneo.
As a result, Acehnese rebels fought Indonesia, and Muslim Malays helped animist Dayaks massacre Muslim Madurese.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/philippines-muslims-celebrate-milfs-peace-with-government-christians-at-site-of-jihad-massacre-less-excited/comment-page-1#comment-1029281
I’ve talked about this crap before, Indonesia and the Philippines were both backed by colonialist western countries against the Muslim Moros, Muslim Achenese, Animist and Christian East Timorese, Moluccans, and West Papuans, and these people all banded together with Gaddafi’s support to fight against Philippines and Indonesia.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/philippines-frees-jihad-leader-to-make-peace-with-milf
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/philippines-muslims-celebrate-milfs-peace-with-government-christians-at-site-of-jihad-massacre-less-excited/comment-page-1#comment-1029689
Again, you express suprise that your western governments support dictatorial regimes like Suharto? America approved of Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and annexation of Papua because Indonesia was strongly anti-communist during the Cold War.
Gaddafi set up the World Mathaba Organization to coordinate weapons supplies to the Free Aceh Movement, East Timor FRETILIN, Free Papua Movement, and South Moluccan seperatists.
The Secretary General of East Timor FRETILIN was an Arab Muslim, Mari Alkatiri, While the Indonesian General Leonardus Benjamin Moerdani, who invaded East Timor, was a Roman Catholic.
Gaddafi appointed Hassan di Tiro, leader of the Muslim Free Aceh Movement, as head of Al-Mathaba. He coordinated weapons supplies to the Animists and Christians in Papua and Timor and rallied against what he called “Javanese colonialism”.
Indonesia is dominated by the Javanese ethnic group. The Javanese settled their own people in Aceh, Papua, and Timor as part of the Transmigration program. The Javanese also allowed closely related peoples like the Balinese Hindus to benefit from the program, settling several thousand Balinese Hindus in East Timorese land.
The Muslim Acehnese said they wouldn’t take any crap from the Javanese just because they were both Muslim, and Hassan di Tiro made it clear that it was not a religious, but a racial conflict with Javanese colonialists oppresing Acehnese Muslims, and East Timorese and West Papuan Christians and animists.
In the transmigration program, Muslim Madurese were also settled in other parts of Indonesia like Borneo. This angered both Muslims Malays and Animist Dayaks in Borneo, so that in 1999, the Muslim Malays and Animist Dayaks joined together to massacre several thousand Muslim Madurese.
Indonesian conflicts are overwhelmingly racial and not religious.
Angemon says
I’ve asked you before and i’ve asked you again Mazo: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? Because all your copy/pasted ranting diatribes (all of them throughly debunked, mind you) revolve around placing all the blames in the US and christians in East Timor.
Like i said in another topic:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1040507
“Once again, a good example of Mazo’s dishonesty. When i said “Indonesia invaded East Timor” Mazo replied i was “ lying when trying to link Islam to the conflict“, even though i only said that Indonesia invaded East Timor, which is, well, a fact. But when he tried to defend Indonesia, he pointed out that some of the generals involved were Christians, therefore trying to link a religion to the conflict.
As if that wasn’t bad enough, twice he mentions the “Javanese oppressors”, going as far as mentioning “their brothers the Balinese Hindus” and how the “Muslim Achenese“suffered under them. But what religion were the Javanese? Well, most Javanese are muslims, a fact that Mazo choose not to mention, even though he mentioned that the Balinese were Hindus. So, by Mazo standards, when muslims are the oppressors religion doesn’t matter, but when muslims are being oppressed, even if by other muslims, religion matters. What religion(s) were the Timorese and the Papuans? Mazo never says so, but it’s safe to assume the vast majority of them are not muslims, otherwise Mazo would surely have informed us, like he did with the Achenese. (psst: the Timorese were mostly animists until the Indonesians forced them to convert to a monotheistic religion).”
See? Your diatribes were as irrelevant back then as they are now, and the only thing you achieve by copy/pasting them regardless of their (lack) of relevance to the topic at hand is drag your reputation even further down (and considering your current reputation, that’s not easily achievable).
It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? Or do you prefer to play the Indonesians as the victims?
Mazo says
I haven’t seen you do a single debunking of all the facts I posted. In fact the liar here is you, trying to claim me and Semeru are the same person when Semeru is pro-Indonesia and most likely a Javanese, while I posted POV supporting Acehnese, Timorese, and Papuans. This is clear from what we posted.
You claimed we are the same person, when I posted tons of information condemning pro-western Javanese-Indonesian war crimes and massacres against Papuans, Acehnese, Timorese, Communists, Islamists, and Chinese.
While Semeru posts pro-Indonesia pro-Javanese pov.
What we both agree on is that all of you post steamloads of garbage trying to blame Islam for everything.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1040126
Tell me how this is pro Indonesia LOL.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1033937
Angemon says
The infuriated Mazo posted:
“I haven’t seen you do a single debunking of all the facts I posted.”
That’s because you don’t read what i post, you just search for keywods and copy/paste long lists of rants/diatribes irrelevant to the topic at hand.
“In fact the liar here is you, trying to claim me and Semeru are the same person when Semeru is pro-Indonesia and most likely a Javanese, while I posted POV supporting Acehnese, Timorese, and Papuans. This is clear from what we posted.”
LOL! So many lies! I sometimes refer to you and Semeru interchangeably because you both spout the same nonsense and you both refuse to condemn Indonesia for the invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese. That’s not the same as claiming you are the same person, is it? I’m too lazy to go and check, but it seems i’m not doing that on this topic, so why are you complaining about it here? Is it because you ran out of arguments and need to resort to lies and personal attacks? Even if i were claiming that, that’s unrelated to the topic at hand. More smoke and mirrors from Mazo. What a shocker.
Here’s the question i’ve made you and Semeru several times. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? I still haven’t got an answer from any of you.
“You claimed we are the same person,”
Where did i claimed that? Like i said, I sometimes refer to you and Semeru interchangeably because you both spout the same nonsense and you both refuse to condemn Indonesia for the invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese. Here’s the question i’ve made you and Semeru several times. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? I still haven’t got an answer from any of you.
“when I posted tons of information condemning pro-western Javanese-Indonesian war crimes and massacres against Papuans, Acehnese, Timorese, Communists, Islamists, and Chinese.
While Semeru posts pro-Indonesia pro-Javanese pov.”
Need i remind you that in this topic one of your replies is a direct quote from Semeru, including a link to one of his posts? If your POV is really 180º from Semeru’s why are you quoting him?
“What we both agree on is that all of you post steamloads of garbage trying to blame Islam for everything.”
That«s because both of you have persecution complexes. Anyone can read that i asked about Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and you reply like i somehow blamed islam for it. Not only that, you go out of your way to present everyone but muslims for it. Not my fault if you have the comprehension of a drunken baboon and/or a deep seated paranoia that would make Freud give up psychology.
Fact is, i’ve been debunking your BS and i keep asking you the same question over and over without getting a straight answer from you: Do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against East Timorese? Since you finally realized i’m not buying any of your unrelated BS (it took you long enough. mind you) your only choice is to play the victim. So what do you do? You lie and pretend to be offended because i sometimes lump you and Semeru together (given how both of you spread the same “blame the christians for the invasion of East Timor” crap) and you lie again when you say i blame islam for everything. You’re a pathetic lying sack of lying crap, and while i pity you, i pity those who have to put up with you on a daily basis even more.
Mazo says
The lies from Angemon just keep piling on.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-malaysia-judge-says-huge-hindu-buddhist-statues-an-affront-to-islam/comment-page-1#comment-1037526
Angemon
April 17, 2014 at 2:41 pm
I’m not the one making the claim, Semeru/Mazo [b]is.[/b] I’m just calling [b]him[/b] out on that.
Reply
I didn’t know you could refer to two people in the singular third person.
And quoting a factual statement by Semeru doesn’t mean we have the same POV on Indonesia’s invasion. Semeru said that to show that Indonesia is a multi religious country with Christians in its top military ranks, and I pointed out that is has nothing to with Islam.
Angemon says
The lying Mazo posted:
“The lies from Angemon just keep piling on.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-malaysia-judge-says-huge-hindu-buddhist-statues-an-affront-to-islam/comment-page-1#comment-1037526
Angemon
April 17, 2014 at 2:41 pm
I’m not the one making the claim, Semeru/Mazo [b]is.[/b] I’m just calling [b]him[/b] out on that.
Reply
I didn’t know you could refer to two people in the singular third person.”
Really? That’s the whole basis for your “WHAMMM! WHAMMM” ANGEMON IS BEING A BIG MEANY TO ME!!” attempt to play victim? I wasn’t sure which one of you posted what i was replying to and i didn’t bother to go check, since both of you spout the same nonsense. Hence, “I’m not the one making the claim, Semeru/Mazo is. I’m just calling him out on that”. Now, if i had said “I’m not the one making the claim, the user hiding behind two different account, Semeru and Mazo, is. I’m just calling him out on that” you might have had a point. But the way things are, you just sound like a paranoid mad man, a poor man’s version of John Nash.
“And quoting a factual statement by Semeru doesn’t mean we have the same POV on Indonesia’s invasion. Semeru said that to show that Indonesia is a multi religious country with Christians in its top military ranks, and I pointed out that is has nothing to with Islam.”
More lies from Mazo. What a surprise. Semeru was quite clear on what he said: he tried to pin all the responsability of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor on christians, just like he does when he says that the atrocities against the East Timorese were committed by East Timorese Christian militias. And you’re saying that’s a factual statement. And despite that, you claim your POV has nothing to do with Semeru’s POV, and you whine because i used your names interchangeably on a handful of occasions.
Anyway, my question still stands. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? Or do you prefer to lie and pretend i’m going around saying that you and semeru are one and the same? Because i’ve asked both of you this simple Yes or No question and none of you answered. Both preferred to lie and accuse me of things i never did. Which tells a lot about your characters, really.
Angemon says
Lol, Mazo’s despair to avoid my question would be hilarious if it weren’t so pathetic.
“I didn’t know you could refer to two people in the singular third person.”
You moron, if only one of you said that why should i have used the plural?
My question still stands. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? Or do you prefer to lie and pretend i’m going around saying that you and semeru are one and the same? Because i’ve asked both of you this simple Yes or No question and none of you answered. Both preferred to lie and accuse me of things i never did. Which tells a lot about your characters, really.
Angemon says
Notice the obfuscation and dishonesty emanating from Mazo. I’ve asked him several times the following Yes or No question: Do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese? Not only Mazo refused to answer, he also stated i’m somehow trying to blame everything on islam, even though islam wasn’t mentioned directly or indirectly on the question. Not only that, he needed to twist my words in order to keep pretending i said “Mazo and Semeru are two accounts from the same user”. Like i said, Mazo and Semeru have given me very similar responses on the Indonesian invasion of East Timor subject, so i sometimes used their names interchangeably, or even lumped them together on a couple of occasions, which is not the same as saying “Mazo and Semeru are two accounts from the same user”.
But according to Mazo logic, saying that one of them said one thing is the same as saying “Mazo and Semeru are two accounts from the same user”, even though only one of them said said thing and therefore i’d be lying if i used the plural to say both said it. Seems like honesty is to Mazo waht sunlight is to vampires.
And even if i was saying “Mazo and Semeru are two accounts from the same user” that was irrelevant to the fact at hand: Mazo never replied to this simple Yes or No question: Do you, Mazo, condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese?
Now watch as Mazo once again dodges the question and accuses me of lying, like he’s been doing for quite some time.
Angemon says
Just a quick P.S. to my last comment. The comment that Mazo claims to be me saying that Mazo and Semeru are one and the same? That’s over a week old, and he never had any problems with it until i started asking him if he condemned Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese. Curious timing, wouldn’t you agree?
Angemon says
I feel that Mazo and Semeru’s recent behaviour is intolerable, even going by their usual standards. While it’s one thing to refuse to condemn the actions of Indonesia in East Timor, trying to rewrite history by blaming christians alone (when someone brings up Indonesia and East Timor we get the same copy/pasted wall of text they use over and over and links to their own posts where they only point the finger at christians) and resorting to lies and personal attacks against other JWers to distract from said attempt of rewriting history is on another level.
Not only Mazo and Semeru have brought nothing new or truthful to the discussion, but they also try to demonize anyone who disagrees with them, either by claiming that anyone who mentions Indonesia and East Timor is claming it was an act of jihad or by scrounging old posts from other users, purposefully twisting them and trying to play the victim, like Mazo did to me. He called me a liar on several occasions and refused to retract, even after being explained why he was wrong. Notice he failed to provide any sort of evidence to counter my rebuttal to the accusations he made about me claiming he and Semeru are one and the same and about me trying to claim Indonesia invaded East Timor because of islam, but he never retracted and/or apologized for them. Does that sound like the attitude of someone who’s willing to engage on a civilized discussion or the attitude of someone who’s willing to stoop as low as he can to silence a dissent opinion?
Semeru says
Angemon tries to pass a whopping big porkie
Semeru was quite clear on what he said: he tried to pin all the responsability of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor on christians, just like he does when he says that the atrocities against the East Timorese were committed by East Timorese Christian militias.
I have not tried to pin all the responsibility for the invasion of East Timor on christians, I have only pointed out that christians where involved.
And yes there where atrocities committed by pro Indonesian christian Timorese. I have never said that the bulk of the atrocities where committed by non-moslem.
I have no problem acknowledging the mass murders the Indonesian army committed. Where as you are and many stalwart commentators have a very big problem acknowledging that christians where involved with the planning and execution of the invasion, also you have the problem to acknowledge that East Timorese where killing East Timorese
Semeru says
Questions for Angemon.
Was the invasion of East Timor a holy war (jihad)?
If it was not a holy war, why did you bring the matter up here on jihad watch in the first place. ?
Angemon says
Ah, one of the prodigal Indonesian atrocities defenders returns, undoubtedly invigorated by the jumuah and ready to keep lying about it, like a Energizer bunny of lying.
“I have not tried to pin all the responsibility for the invasion of East Timor on christians, I have only pointed out that christians where involved.”
Here’s your response to any criticism of Indonesia’s actions on East Timor: “christians did it”. Notice that when i say Indonesia i’m talking about muslims, christians or jews, i’m talking about indonesians, regardless of their religion. But Semeru, just like Mazo, pins everything on christians. As you can see on his posts, he goes on and on about how christian generals and christian members of the government were the ones responsible for the invasion, and how christian militias were the ones doing all the killing, going as fas as conveniently leaving out those were pro-indonesian militians.
According to Semeru’s response to any mention of the indonesian invasion of east timor, the official version of the events is that a handful of christians in a muslim majority county managed to raise an army and invade another country on their own while the muslim majority had nothing to do with it.
“And yes there where atrocities committed by pro Indonesian christian Timorese. I have never said that the bulk of the atrocities where committed by non-moslem.”
So you keep saying you said. But when i brought up the Santa Cruz massacre you immediately brought up the Liquiçá Church Massacre and the Suai Church Massacre, claiming those were committed by timorese christians, as if timorese christians simply decided to go and kill people. Now, a simple yes or no question: do you admit the bulk of the atrocities committed against the east timorese were committed by Indonesians, regardless of their religion and political affiliation?
“I have no problem acknowledging the mass murders the Indonesian army committed.”
Then prove it by acknowledging it for a change. Because every time someone brings the Indonesian issue up your reply is “christians did it”. What we have here is your actions not matching to your words.
“ Where as you are and many stalwart commentators have a very big problem acknowledging that christians where involved with the planning and execution of the invasion, also you have the problem to acknowledge that East Timorese where killing East Timorese”
LOL! And you accuse me of trying pass a whopping big porkie! Tell me, if i say “Indonesia invaded East Timor and Indonesians are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of East Timorese” where am i claiming that christians had nothing to do with it? I’m keeping religion out of it, so your claim regarding problems in acknowledging that christians participated in the invasio has nowhere to stand on. You’re the one bringing religion into this, not me. No, i say “Indonesians invaded East Timor” and you say “christians did it”. I’ll say it again because you seem to have problems grasping simple concepts: i don’t really care the religion of the invaders, until someone goes out of their way to pin it on a minority religion. If someone does that it’s because they are trying to hide something.
A simple Yes or No question semeru: Do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities perpetrated by INdonesians against the East Timorese? Mazo went out of his way and lied to avoid answer that, let’s see how you fare.
Angemon says
Semeru posted:
“Questions for Angemon.
Was the invasion of East Timor a holy war (jihad)?”
Don’t know and don’t care. It’s obvious from my posts that i’m not saying that it was, so as far as i can tell now, that’s irrelevant for the topic at hand.
“If it was not a holy war, why did you bring the matter up here on jihad watch in the first place. ?”
LOL! THis has to be the most pathetic leap of logic i’ve seen in a while (and seeing the lengths Mazo went to try to frame me for lying, that’s saying much).
Tell me, why shouldn’t i bring the Indonesian invasion of East Timor here? Because it automatically becomes jihad? Let’s apply that logic to your own statements. You keep saying that east timorese christian militias massacred people. Was that jihad? If not, why did you bring that matter up here on jihad watch in the first place?
You keep saying that christian generals were behind the Indonesian invasion. Was that jihad? If not, why did you bring that matter up here on jihad watch in the first place?
You say that the US authorized the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. Was that jihad? If not, why did you bring that matter up here on jihad watch in the first place?
And now, a question of my own. It’s a simple Yes or No question semeru: Do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities perpetrated by INdonesians against the East Timorese? Mazo went out of his way and lied to avoid answer that, let’s see how you fare.
gravenimage says
Reams of obfuscation from Mazo and Semeru.
The fact that Muslims have at times used Christian Janissaries changes nothing about the nature of Islamic Jihad—except, of course, to make it rather more perverse.
The fact is that East Timor was Portuguese. In 1975 a revolution in Portugal ousted the Salsazar regime, and in the resulting chaos she abandoned her colonies, including East Timor.
Muslim Indonesia invaded in a classic Jihad conquest.
Indonesia then proceeded to treat the people of their conquered territory—Catholics and non-Catholics alike—as threatened and oppressed dhimmis. This is classic Islam.
As for the West, her hands-off approach is disgusting but not surprising. Western governments had many times mistaken Muslim states for some sort of principled hedge against Communism. We’ve seen this in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as Indonesia.
Today East Timor is a free nation—but one still very much threatened by her huge and very Islamic “neighbor”. 97% of the population is Catholic, 99% Christian.
Mohammedans hate having a free Christian neighbor almost as much as they do a Jewish one…
gravenimage says
One small correction: the toppling of the Salazar regime was the previous year—1974. 1975 was when the Muslim hordes took advantage of the situation and invaded vulnerable East Timor.
Mazo says
This disgusting gravenimage blatantly lies about “hands off approach” of the west, when Australia openly helped blockade East Timor to stop Chinese arms from getting through to the resistance, and when America supplied and supported the Indonesian military, both during the 1960s mass killings, and then in East Timor.
http://fundasaunmahein.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/publication_file_fr_287.pdf
Beijing assembled equipment sufficient to arm a light infantry division of 8,000 men, including medium anti-aircraft machine guns, light artillery, mortars and infantry anti-tank weapons. However, the Indonesian naval blockade with assistance from the Australian navy prevented the delivery of the equipment to the Timorese.5
Indonesia suppressed and massacred Islamists, Suharto’s Christian Generals Moerdani and Syafei both named political Islam as the number one threat to Indonesia, Syafei said a pious Muslim should NEVER rule Indonesia and insulted the Quran and Islam. Moerdani suppressed religious Muslims in the Indonesian military.
Syafei’s disgusting slurs against the Quran and Islam and his attacks on political Islam-
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
He was responsible for butchering East Timorese during Suharto’s rule, with American support.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
Indonesia killed Darul Islam Islamists, Komando Jihad members, and Acehnese Islamists.
Indonesia even used Christian Batak soldiers to kill Acehnese Islamist separatists in Sumatra.
It was Acehnese Islamists who supported the East Timorese resistance, and Libya and China who supplied weapons.
America backed Suharto seizing power in 1965 by toppling President Sukarno, the legitimate President of Indonesia, because of Sukarno’s relations with the Communist party and Communist countries. Suharto’s troops received direct Amercian military aid to carry out the coup against Sukarno, and to carry out the subsequent massacre of over 600,000, accusing them of being “communists”, when most of them were innocent and not even Communists at all.
America and Australia approved of and supported Indonesia’s invasion and massacres of East Timorese.
Australia is currently stealing East Timor’s gas fields while 90% of East Timor’s revenue comes from gas.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/east-timorese-stone-australian-embassy-20131206-hv4ll.html
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Jonathan+Manthorpe+East+Timor+challenges+Australia+control+Timor+field/8437488/story.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/15/1081838827851.html
East Timor is now buying weapons from Indonesia (and China too)
http://pacific.scoop.co.nz/2014/02/timor-leste-plans-to-buy-weapons-from-indonesia-for-border-challenges/
If Australia continues on its current path, it looks like the Timorese will be needing them.
Mazo says
This is gravenimage’s “hands off” approach.
http://www.cja.org/article.php?list=type&type=198
To the United States, which had recently withdrawn from South Vietnam, Fretilin’s success seemed to confirm the worst fears of a Communist “domino effect” sweeping South-East Asia. To Indonesian nationalists, including the virulently anti-Communist President Suharto, the decolonization of East Timor presented a chance to both annex East Timor and liquidate a perceived Communist threat. Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was unequivocal in his support for the Suharto regime. On December 6, 1975, he and US President Ford met with Suharto in Jakarta just days before the invasion. According to recently declassified memos, Ford and Kissinger agreed to establish small-arms factories in Indonesia.
The following day, on December 7, 1975, Indonesia launched Operation Komodo, the general invasion of East Timor. Notified days later, Kissinger’s primary concern was how to spin the fact that American weaponry would likely be used in an illegal act of aggression: “The use of US-made arms could create problems.” But he added, “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation…it is important that
Sidney Penny says
Is Obama going to the Hindu temple in Batu Caves?
KUALA LUMPUR: The “huge” statues at a Hindu temple in Batu Caves and Buddhist temple in Penang are an affront to Islam as the religion forbids idolatry, a retired Court of Appeals judge said.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-malaysia-judge-says-huge-hindu-buddhist-statues-an-affront-to-islam
“With such a huge statue, you’re showing that your religion is all mighty and powerful,” Datuk Mohd Noor Abdullah said — and in the supremacist vision that he has, since he “insisted Islam is above other faiths,” that is unacceptable. He did not receive the memo that Muslims in the West have received, that “interfaith dialogue” is the order of the day, full of smiles and assurances of tolerance — until such displays are no longer necessary, and a vision of Islam much like that of Datuk Mohd Noor Abdullah takes its place. “‘Huge’ Hindu, Buddhist Statues Against Islam, Ex-Judge Says,” from the Malaysian
Lynn says
the bamster is a muzzie. Period. He goes to the mosques because he can and will. He mocks Christianity when he thinks he can get away with it. He undermines American Policies around the world when ever he can. He is pro muzzie and anti American. He’s very clear on those positions and his actions or non-actions point to it.
BlueRaven says
It will be interesting if he joins their prayers. That will verify he is a Muslim, and he is using Christianity as an umbrella – for a rainy day.
Brian Hoff says
If he pray at the mosque it doesnot mean he is than muslim at our mosque we have non-muslim guest who pray with us.
Bill says
Angemon, thanks for your summary of the actual history of the dark ages.
I’ve been looking for a more expansive version of this, albeit not a history tome. Can you recommend a site or a short book?
Thanx again!
Semeru says
Bill the summary of “the summary of the actual history of the dark ages” is a cut and paste
http://www.newenglishreview.org/print.cfm?pg=custpage&frm=111009&sec_id=111009
Angemon says
I recommend Emmet Scott’s Mohammed & Charlemagne Revisited. I have the ebook version of it, so i can’t tell how thick the physical version is. Basically, he revisits and makes a case for Henri Pirenne’s work. In fact, much of what i said was copy/pasted from Mohammed & Charlemagne Revisited’s epilogue:
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Emmet_Scott/Mohammed_&_Charlemagne_Revisited%3A_The_Epilogue/
dumbledoresarmy says
Angemon
I can’t reply directly to one of your postings above, as I wanted to do, so I’ll do it here.
It’s the posting in which you said – “Truth is, Mazo/Semeru’s (look! im using their names interchangeably, i must be accusing them of being the same person, lol!) arguments are ad verbatim the same than a indonesian i met while in college.”
And then you described what happened on that particular occasion. Wow.
And very educational for other posters new to the subject and the site who may lob in here in future.
Just to say: I totally appreciate what you’ve done in this thread. You’ve managed, over and over, to cut through the fog, and in a way that helps others to see how you’re doing it.
Angemon says
Thanks, i’m glad i could help 😀
Truth is, Mazo/Semeru went through a lot of hoops and copy/pasted walls of unrelated texts to avoid answering my Yes or No question. And once it became clear i wouldn’t back down on it, the defamation campaign started. Through a very subjective, biased and sketchy interpretation of weeks old comments i was accused of saying they’re one and the same and trying to link islam with the what the indonesians did in East Timor. The timing was curious – no complaints when i made those posts, but after i started asking a simple yes/no question suddenly each of them became an issue.
But for the sake of the argument, let’s pretend that i said Mazo and Semeru are one and the same and that i said that the invasion of East Timor was jihad. How come that affects Mazo/Semeru’s ability to condemn or not what Indonesia did in East Timor? The answer is, it doesn’t. It’s completely irrelevant to the question i made and they’re nothing more than personal attacks made with the sole intent of weasel out of answering my question.
Now, knowing Mazo/Semeru’s track record and the islamic mindset i better bookmark the posts where i debunk the accusations made against me, because Mazo/Semeru will undoubtedly keep calling me a liar and link to the aforementioned posts to “prove” it. I’m going to need to keep my rebuttals handy 😉
I mean, just look at Semeru’s argument on this very topic:
“Was the invasion of East Timor a holy war (jihad)?
If it was not a holy war, why did you bring the matter up here on jihad watch in the first place. ?”
By his logic, everything brought up here is jihad. Let that sink in. Going by Semeru’s logic, whatever anyone talks about here is automatically jihad because it’s being talked about here on Jihad Watch. So, you’re asking someone the time, or how’s the family doing? Then you’re committing jihad. But Semeru talked about the Indonesia and the invasion of East Timor. So he’s saying that it was jihad. By the same logic he uses to try to claim i’m claiming it’s jihad, he’s indeed claiming it was jihad.
His argument is nothing more than typical islamic knee-jerk reaction: say whatever you need to say to defend against perceived attacks on islam (note: perceived attacks, not actual attacks) and whatever that means for your past and future arguments be damned. It’s the same reasoning that gave birth to the Satanic Verses: muhammad wanted to convert his tribe to islam so he claimed that they could pray to Al-Lat, Al-‘Uzzá
and Manāt. But uh-oh, that means adding partners to allah, so good-bye monotheism. Not only that, attaching partners to allah is shirk, the gravest sin in islam and the only sin allah can’t forgive. Quran, 4:48 – “Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin”. Muhammad tried to fix it by saying “oh, those verses were delivered to me by Satan, so forget about them, ok?”, which makes things even worse: if muhammad can’t tell the difference between divine and demonic revelations, how can anyone be 100% sure that the quran is the unaltered word of God?
Also, a small, unrelated remark. On the 24th i said “This is the standard muslim approach to other cultures. They despise whatever was before islam and what they can’t rob they demonize“, to which Mazo replied “I have no idea what you are talking about Muslims demonizing other cultures” On the following days, we’ve had this two shining examples of despise for and demonization of Western culture and values, from which he’s suspiciously absent from:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/iran-human-rights-chief-west-using-human-rights-issue-to-attack-islamic-iran
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysian-islamic-leader-equality-liberty-and-human-rights-created-by-atheists-to-destroy-islam
We know that he’ll never admit being wrong, so i’m guessing it’s a tossup between the usual “blah blah bah, saudi wahabi radicals, “it’s because of christian oppression” and “you know nothing about Malaysia so shut up and accept what i say about it”, probably with a few personal attacks mingled in.
Mazo says
I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy. I said Javanese people were close to Balinese Hindus, but I never said that mant they were good guys, or that secular meant good,
Semeru is a Javanese Indonesian, his aim is to show Indonesia as a secular country, mass murdering but secular. Since many of you like voegelinian are fans of Secular Dictators who murder Islamists without charge, I guess that would appeal to you.
I am not an Indonesian, and I show that Indonesia was a Javanese dominated, western backed dictatorship responsible for war crimes, although it was a secular country, that has nothing to do with the criminal massacres it indulged in with Australian and American support.
Christian General Syafei insulted the Quran and Islam. He said that a pious Muslim should never rule Indonesia.
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
He was responsible for butchering East Timorese during Suharto’s rule, with American support.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
America and Australia set up an arms blockade around East Timor, helping Indonesia, stopping China and Libya from arming the FRETILIN resistance.
China wanted to send arms to “Communist’ FRETILIN as the Americans called them, but they could not make it past Indonesia and Australia’s evil blockade around East Timor.
Your western countries helped the Javanese Indonesian butchery of countless East Timorese, West Papuans, Muslim Acehnese, Chinese, Communists, and Darul Islam Islamists.
Animist and Christian Indonesian Batak soldiers in the Indonesian army slaughtered Acehnese Muslim rebels.
Mazo says
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1039235
Angemon
April 21, 2014 at 6:48 am
I’m surprised Semeru/Mazo isn’t in full damage control mode yet. I guessed he finally woke up and smelled the Java. We won’t be hearing more of his crap about how “islam in indonesia is different, more tolerant and it has nothing to do with sunni and shia islam”.
Angemon says
The taqyyia spreading Mazo posted:
“I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy.”
Let’s go the opposite route: show me where you condemned Indonesia’s actions in East Timor, the invasion and atrocities committed against the East Timorese. In fact, i’ve asked you several times a Yes or No question: Do you, Mazo, condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by the indonesians against the East Timorese? Show me where you replied with a Yes or a No to that question.
“Semeru is a Javanese Indonesian, his aim is to show Indonesia as a secular country, mass murdering but secular.”
HA! What a steaming pile of BS! Whenever Semeru is faced with the actions of Indonesia in East Timor he always pulls the “christians and East Timorese did it” card. Something YOU should know since you quoted him on that and even said it was a “factual” statement.
“Since many of you like voegelinian are fans of Secular Dictators who murder Islamists without charge, I guess that would appeal to you.”
I dare Mazo to show me a single post where i claim i’m a fan of Secular Dictators who murder islamists without charges. Once again, Mazo’s dishonesty is blatantly obvious. Not only he refuses to condemn the atrocities committed by Indonesia in East Timor, he stoops as low as to say i support the government responsible for them.
“I am not an Indonesian, and I show that Indonesia was a Javanese dominated, western backed dictatorship responsible for war crimes, although it was a secular country, that has nothing to do with the criminal massacres it indulged in with Australian and American support.”
You just said that secularity had nothing to do with the criminal massacres Indonesia committed. So, they were religious based? Because you and Semeru persist in blaming christians for what happened in East Timor.
“Animist and Christian Indonesian Batak soldiers in the Indonesian army slaughtered Acehnese Muslim rebels.”
Once again, notice how Mazo pins the blame of the atrocities committed by the indonesian army solely on non-muslims. It’s like he expect us to believe that in a muslim majority country the army is mainly composed of non-muslims, including animists, even though animism is not accepted as Indonesia’s official religion as the Pancasila states the belief in a single supreme deity while animism does not believe in a single unique god.
“http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1039235
Angemon
April 21, 2014 at 6:48 am
I’m surprised Semeru/Mazo isn’t in full damage control mode yet. I guessed he finally woke up and smelled the Java. We won’t be hearing more of his crap about how “islam in indonesia is different, more tolerant and it has nothing to do with sunni and shia islam”.
LOL! More scrounging of unrelated posts! Here’s what i said about using the singular when referring to Mazo/Semeru. It’s on this very topic:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041719
“I wasn’t sure which one of you posted what i was replying to and i didn’t bother to go check, since both of you spout the same nonsense. ”
Same goes there. I wasn’t sure if it was you or Semeru who kept saying that islam in Indonesia was far more tolerant than islam. Now, here’s the mess where you got yourself into: if only Semeru said that then only one of you said that and there’s nothing wrong with me using the singular 3rd person when referring to whoever said it. However, if both of you said that then not only you can’t complain about me using your names interchangeably, but you share Semeru’s views, even though you just told me you went trough great lengths to “prove” the opposite. Wow, you must own stocks in a shovel company since you keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.
And now let’s look at something else i said on this topic:
“Through a very subjective, biased and sketchy interpretation of weeks old comments i was accused of saying they’re one and the same”
You just did this. Again. You repeated the same pattern of action even though you did nothing to disprove my debunking of your asinine claim. You literally did the same thing expecting different results. BTW, here’s a nice quote credited to Albert Einstein:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
And here’s something else i said on this topic:
“But for the sake of the argument, let’s pretend that i said Mazo and Semeru are one and the same[…]. How come that affects Mazo/Semeru’s ability to condemn or not what Indonesia did in East Timor? The answer is, it doesn’t. It’s completely irrelevant to the question i made and they’re nothing more than personal attacks made with the sole intent of weasel out of answering my question.”
You still haven’t made clear how relevant me accusing or not you and semeru of being one and the same is to the topic at hand.
Once again, I dare Mazo to show me a single post where i said “Mazo and Semeru and two accounts belonging to the a single user”. Show me that then explain me how it prevents you from answering this Yes or No question:
Do you, Mazo, condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by the indonesians against the East Timorese? Yes or no buddy, we’re all waiting for your response.
Angemon says
Let’s take a closer notice at this little nugget (courtesy of Mazo):
“Since many of you like voegelinian are fans of Secular Dictators who murder Islamists without charge”
Notice the subtlety. Like i said before, Mazo goes to great lengths to separate the majority religion in Indonesia, hence he quoted one of semeru’s “the christians and east timorese did it” BS posts and said it was “factual”, so it’s no wonder he tries to link’secular” and “dictator”. But the truly interesting bit is the next bit: “who murder Islamists without charge“. Now, the term “islamists” is used by PC MC leftist media to refer to people like bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, you know, the islamic terrorists, people like the ones behind 9/11, Benghazi, the London and Madrid bombings, etc. They do so to avoid lumping ordinary, run-of-the-mill, “moderate” secular muslims together with the likes of bin Laden and the other who promote political islam.
Everyone following me? Good, now notice what Mazo said earlier:
“Christian Generals who implemented anti-Islamist policies, naming political Islam as a threat to Indonesia ”
Mazo also makes the distinction between muslims and islamists, with islamists being the ones behind political islam, terror bombings, and the whole 9 yards.
Now look again about what Mazo posted:
“Since many of you like voegelinian are fans of Secular Dictators who murder Islamists without charge”
Knowing the difference between the terms “muslim” and “islamist”, what does that make of Mazo’s statement? Is he really trying to pass terrorists and terrorist enablers as innocent victims of a blood-thirsty secular dictator? Does Mazo support islamism and political islam, which was considered a threat by secular politicians and army members? Because that’s the vibe i’m getting from him. Remember, Mazo quoted Semeru’s “christians did it” post and said it was a “factual” statement.
Come to think of it, most of Mazo’s links are to his own posts and we’re supposed to believe whatever he says even though he offers very little evidence to back his claims.
Angemon says
OK, here’s a point i feel it can’t be stressed enough. Mazo is making a big deal about me claiming he was pro-indonesia. Here’s what he said about it:
“I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy.”
My friends, if you’ve been reading the argument between me and Mazo you know perfectly well i asked him over and over to condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor. Whether Mazo is pro-indonesia, anti-indonesia or neutral is an issue he brought up, not me. Not only he failed to answer my Yes or No”do you condemn Indonesia” question but he quoted one of Semeru’s “christians and East Timorese did it” posts and said it was “factual”, even though he claimed Semeru was the one pro-indonesia. That alone begs the question: would someone who’s not pro-indonesia put the blame for the atrocities committed by indonesians against the east timorese on the east timorese themselves? Not only that, further on he said that animist and christian Indonesian slaughtered muslims. Once again, more of the same “blame the kuffar” blame game he loves to play.
And take another look at his criteria for saying he’s pro-indonesia:
“I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy.”
Not only that’s another among the several unrelated issues he brought up to dodge my question, but does he applies his “show me a post where i said that” mind state to the times where he accused me of lying by claiming i said he and Semeru are the same person or when he accused me of blaming the invasion of East Timor on jihad? No, like i cleared explained beyond any reasonable doubt, he engaged on very biased and sketchy reinterpretations of old posts. Posts which he had no problem with until i started asking him if he condemned Indonesia’s actions on East Timor.
Let’s use logic and look at the sheer number of times i interacted with him and Semeru. Since i never said “Mazo and Semeru are the same person” (other than the times i said it to explained what i didn’t say 🙂 ) then, if his deduction is correct, there should be many posts of me referring, as he puts it, “to two people in the singular third person“. Now, the posts where he’s quoting me aren’t even directed at him or Semeru (whichis kinda of stalker-ish and creepy, but let’s disregard that for now). Given the context on the topics i’m using both names interchangeably it’s clear it’s just me saying someone else “it was one of those eastern islam defender guys who said it, Mazo, or Semeru, can’t remember exactly who”. Now, i ask you, if i really claimed he and semeru were the same person shouldn’t he have at least a post of me directed at him or semeru saying “you two are the same person” among the dozens of my posts directed at him and semeru? And why is he using different standards for evidence when dealing with an accusation i never made and an accusation he made against me?
My friends, that’s a tactic often used by muslims to dodge questions. They’ll refuse to answer whatever you ask them and instead accuse you of things that you never did, bring up unrelated issues or, like in this case, do a mix of the two things – accusing me of things i didn’t do and are unrelated to the topic at hand. Notice that Mazo has yet to explain how he being pro-indonesian or not, me saying or not that what happened in East Timor was jihad and me claiming or not that he and semeru are the same person in any way relate to his ability to answer my Yes or No question. What you have to do in cases like this is to keep pushing. I kept pushing when he refused to answer my question and he accused me of saying he and semeru are the same person. I debunked that, kept asking the question and he accused me of trying to blame the invasion of East Timor on jihad. I debunked that, kept asking the question and he accused me of saying he was pro-indonesian and of of saying he and semeru are the same person, again, even though that had already been debunked.
If this were a debate who do you think would be on top now? The guy refusing to answer a simple Yes or No question and making false accusations or the guy debunking said false accusations and making the question about condemning a country for the attempted genocide of the population of another country? If you had to trust someone would you trust the guy refusing to answer a simple Yes or No question, blaming the victims and making false accusations or the guy debunking said false accusations and making the question about condemning a country for the attempted genocide of the population of another country?
Finally, why hasn’t he answered my Yes or No question? Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese? Yes or no? Seeing as you claim not being pro-indonesian then you’re either anti-indonesia, in which case you’d be biased in favor of condemning Indonesia, or you’re neutral, in which case you’d give a trully impartial response. But you refuse to give any response at all. Yes or no buddy, what’s it going to be?
You know, my parents always told me, “If you don’t have something intelligent to say, just keep quiet.” Apparently, Mazo’s parents never told him that. Much of what Mazo writes is excruciatingly hard to read on the basis of the bigotry and intolerance oozing from it. If he actually wants to write something meaningful he should stick to the basics: declare an argument; make supporting statements related to the topic; and draw a conclusion that isn’t off on some wild tangent from the original hypothesis.
gravenimage says
DDA, I agree with you about the quality of Angemon’s posts. Excellent work.
gravenimage says
Mazo and Semeru do have slightly differing emphases—but only slight ones.
Both of them employ reams of what Dumbledore’s Army aptly refers to as “sand throwing”—verbiage intended by its very volume to obfuscate. Then they use Tu Quoque to falsely imply that everyone else engages in the same sort of barbarism as Muslims; and Kitman to provide facts that only give a partial, and hence misleading, indication of Jihad.
As they would have it, no Muslim savagery ever really has anything to do with Islam, even when it is explicitly carried out in its name.
Their only purpose here is apologia for savage Islam—any differences in point of view are dwarfed by the ultimate similarities of their aims and approaches.
Angemon says
gravenimage posted:
“DDA, I agree with you about the quality of Angemon’s posts. Excellent work.”
Oh, stop it or i’m gonna blush 😀
Mazo says
As they would have it, no Muslim savagery ever really has anything to do with Islam, even when it is explicitly carried out in its name.
And gravenimage failed to respond when I exposed her lies about this.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1043979
voegelinian says
I wonder if there’s reliable evidence that would shed light on the following question:
Do non-Muslim Malays indulge in the curious psychosociological phenomenon of running amok in the same numbers as do Muslim Malays?
In the Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary (26th edition, 1985), under the word “amok” (a word I never would have expected to see in a medical dictionary), the following definition is given:
amok [Malay “impulse to murder”] — a psychic disturbance seen chiefly in Malaysia, the Philippines,and parts of Africa, marked chiefly by sudden homicidal mania, screaming, and attacks on people and inanimate objects, tending to result in social retribution and leading to the death of the individual.
http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2014/03/islam-amok-asian-style.html
voegelinian says
In a book titled, Historical Dictionary of Indonesia, but Robert Cribb and Audrey Kahin (2004), under the entry “Massacres of 1965-1966”, it describes a complex situation of sociopolitical violence in which some 80,000 were killed, possible one million. It implies that at least in part, Muslims were involved in communal violence against “Leftists” and/or Communists:
In part, the killings were a planned operation by the army to remove the PKI [the Communist party] as a political force… In some other areas, the initiative seems to have come from local people: longstanding social tensions aligned with political antagonisms created deep hatreds between the groups so that the killings, when they came, were not directed simply at destroying communist leaders but at extirpating whole communities. In East Java, where such antagonism was strongest, santri communities represented by the Nadhlatul Ulama (NU) youth group Ansor, waged a sustained compaign of destruction against their abangan neighbors… [note: the Nadhlatul Ulama is a Muslim organization often touted as “moderate”] On Sumatra, the most extensive killings occurred in Aceh… where an estimated 27,000-40,000 died. [note: Aceh, the location of so many Muslim problems reported by Jihad Watch over the years, as Angemon has in part cited above ] … Some observers initial described the killings as a kind of massive running amuck, but this seems an inadequate explanation for the systematic character of the murders. [Note: the author only supplies his opinion, that the description of these mass killings as “running amok” seems to be “an inadequate explanation” — and why is it inadequate? Only because of the “systematic character of the murders”. With Muslims using mass running amok as a terror tactic, however, combined with the fact that Muslims can become fanatically inflamed on a mass scale, what is assumed to be “un-systematic” can easily acquire a systematic dimension if one simply remembers that Muslims are in certain respects uniquely different from other sociopolitical groups. Elsewhere in the encyclopedia, under the entry for “Amuk”, the writer adds that “…it may have developed, like the Viking berserk, as a technique for inspiring terror in enemies during battle…“.
voegelinian says
Lotta typos in my last post.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SawyrExg75cC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=fretilin+islam&source=bl&ots=43ikrnPvDh&sig=DL2NTRGlIQZhmYLM6Encmt6LmDQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C69eU_uSNoWtyATpu4CYCg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBDge#v=onepage&q=amuk&f=false
Jimbo says
“It shows that the president is sensitive and also that he wants to get closer to the Muslim world,”
How close? Thisclose.
veggiedog says
I am not Right Wing or Progressive. Islam just scares the crap out of me… Why, because stupidity and fanaticism reign spreme.
veggiedog says
That should have read
I am not Right Wing or Progressive. Islam just scares the crap out of me… Why, because stupidity and fanaticism reign supreme.
gravenimage says
Malaysia: Obama to “honor Islam” by visiting triumphal mosque built on site of church
“Religious Adviser to Prime Minister Tan Sri Dr Abdullah Md Zin said it was ‘not common’ for a leader of a superpower to include a visit to a mosque in their itinerary”
……………………………………
Count on Barack Hussein Obama to go the extra mile when it comes to “honoring Islam”. *Ugh*.
Angemon says
OK, here’s a point i feel it can’t be stressed enough. Mazo is making a big deal about me claiming he was pro-indonesia. Here’s what he said about it:
“I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy.”
My friends, if you’ve been reading the argument between me and Mazo you know perfectly well i asked him over and over to condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor. Whether Mazo is pro-indonesia, anti-indonesia or neutral is an issue he brought up, not me. Not only he failed to answer my Yes or No”do you condemn Indonesia” question but he quoted one of Semeru’s “christians and East Timorese did it” posts and said it was “factual”, even though he claimed Semeru was the one pro-indonesia. That alone begs the question: would someone who’s not pro-indonesia put the blame for the atrocities committed by indonesians against the east timorese on the east timorese themselves? Not only that, further on he said that animist and christian Indonesian slaughtered muslims. Once again, more of the same “blame the kuffar” blame game he loves to play.
And take another look at his criteria for saying he’s pro-indonesia:
“I dare Angemon to show me a single pro-Indonesia post. Show me where I ever said Indonesia was a good guy.”
Not only that’s another among the several unrelated issues he brought up to dodge my question, but does he applies his “show me a post where i said that” mind state to the times where he accused me of lying by claiming i said he and Semeru are the same person or when he accused me of blaming the invasion of East Timor on jihad? No, like i cleared explained beyond any reasonable doubt, he engaged on very biased and sketchy reinterpretations of old posts. Posts which he had no problem with until i started asking him if he condemned Indonesia’s actions on East Timor.
Let’s use logic and look at the sheer number of times i interacted with him and Semeru. Since i never said “Mazo and Semeru are the same person” (other than the times i said it to explained what i didn’t say 🙂 ) then, if his deduction is correct, there should be many posts of me referring, as he puts it, “to two people in the singular third person“. Now, the posts where he’s quoting me aren’t even directed at him or Semeru (whichis kinda of stalker-ish and creepy, but let’s disregard that for now). Given the context on the topics i’m using both names interchangeably it’s clear it’s just me saying someone else “it was one of those eastern islam defender guys who said it, Mazo, or Semeru, can’t remember exactly who”. Now, i ask you, if i really claimed he and semeru were the same person shouldn’t he have at least a post of me directed at him or semeru saying “you two are the same person” among the dozens of my posts directed at him and semeru? And why is he using different standards for evidence when dealing with an accusation i never made and an accusation he made against me?
My friends, that’s a tactic often used by muslims to dodge questions. They’ll refuse to answer whatever you ask them and instead accuse you of things that you never did, bring up unrelated issues or, like in this case, do a mix of the two things – accusing me of things i didn’t do and are unrelated to the topic at hand. Notice that Mazo has yet to explain how he being pro-indonesian or not, me saying or not that what happened in East Timor was jihad and me claiming or not that he and semeru are the same person in any way relate to his ability to answer my Yes or No question. What you have to do in cases like this is to keep pushing. I kept pushing when he refused to answer my question and he accused me of saying he and semeru are the same person. I debunked that, kept asking the question and he accused me of trying to blame the invasion of East Timor on jihad. I debunked that, kept asking the question and he accused me of saying he was pro-indonesian and of of saying he and semeru are the same person, again, even though that had already been debunked.
If this were a debate who do you think would be on top now? The guy refusing to answer a simple Yes or No question and making false accusations or the guy debunking said false accusations and making the question about condemning a country for the attempted genocide of the population of another country? If you had to trust someone would you trust the guy refusing to answer a simple Yes or No question, blaming the victims and making false accusations or the guy debunking said false accusations and making the question about condemning a country for the attempted genocide of the population of another country?
Finally, why hasn’t he answered my Yes or No question? Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese? Yes or no? Seeing as you claim not being pro-indonesian then you’re either anti-indonesia, in which case you’d be biased in favor of condemning Indonesia, or you’re neutral, in which case you’d give a trully impartial response. But you refuse to give any response at all. Yes or no buddy, what’s it going to be?
You know, my parents always told me, “If you don’t have something intelligent to say, just keep quiet.” Apparently, Mazo’s parents never told him that. Much of what Mazo writes is excruciatingly hard to read on the basis of the bigotry and intolerance oozing from it. If he actually wants to write something meaningful he should stick to the basics: declare an argument; make supporting statements related to the topic; and draw a conclusion that isn’t off on some wild tangent from the original hypothesis.
Mazo says
There is absolutely no contradiction in me quoting Semeru’s post on Christian Indonesian Generals in East Timor.
Its like a Syrian Assad supporter telling westerners that Assad is a secular, although he is a dictator, that he is secular, and tortures and kills Islamists in order to gain their support, and that Assad has Christian Generals. I’ve seen westerners who claim to support Assad even though he is a dictator, because he has Christians in his military and national defense forces, and he massacres Islamists without any legal process whatsoever, while in their own countries that doesn’t happen.
And imagine another westerner, who mistakenly thinks that Assad is an Islamist because he supports Hezbollah and is supported by Iran. And then an Anti-Assad activist corrects that westerner, quotes the Pro-Assad person, and shows the westerner that Assad is a secular brutal dictator who massacres and tortures Islamists without charge, and that he has Christians in his military who committed war crimes against Islamists.
Semeru is pointing out that his own country Indonesia is a multi religious country and tolerates Christians, and that many Christians are even top military officers, and that Indonesia is not Islamist. That is a fact, and I quoted that fact about the Christian Generals. I believe that I didn’t quote the part about East Timorese militia.
I am pointing out that Indonesia was a western backed dictatorship which committed war crimes and atrocities against its non-Javanese population, against Communists, Islamists, Acehnese, Timorese, Papuans, and Chinese.
I won’t answer your question, because saying no would be a lie, and saying yes would indicate that all my previous posts condemning Indonesian-Javanese massacres and atrocities on East Timorese were null and void. Just because you lumped me with Semeru as pro-Indonesia, does not mean I am obligated to condemn something I already did to cover your embarrasment. Why should I answer the question when I already called Indonesia a dictatorship and atrocity committer.
Yes, Acehnese are more Orthodox Muslims and want Sharia, that does not mean that Indonesia has the right to massacre or torture them, the Acehnese can implement whatever they want in their own country. I acknowledge that Javanese are more tolerant of religious differences and close to Balinese Hindus, but that means nothing in the face of mass atrocities and war crimes.
As for Islamists, Islamists means a person who believes in Islamic politics, it is not synonymous with terrorists although some Islamist groups might be terrorists.
The Pan Malaysian Islamic Party is a legal Islamist party in Malaysia. It is not a terrorist group and does not engage in terrorism. Jemaah Islamiyah is a southeast asian Islamist group and engages in terrorism.
A secular dictator who kills and tortures Islamists without legal charges is committing war crimes and atrocities, no matter if their political view is Islamist, they cannot be killed without charge in a civilized country.
Many of your fellow JWatchers blame Indonesia for being Islamist (false), claim Islam was responsible for atrocities in East Timor and West Papua (false), and then feign sympathy for Timorese and Papuans.
Angemon says
The taqyyia spreading Mazo posted:
“There is absolutely no contradiction in me quoting Semeru’s post on Christian Indonesian Generals in East Timor.
Its like a Syrian Assad supporter”
Actually, Indonesia in East Timor is nothing like Assad in Syria. Assad is fighting a civil war, Indonesia invaded a neighboring country.
“I’ve seen westerners who claim to support Assad even though he is a dictator, because he has Christians in his military and national defense forces, and he massacres Islamists without any legal process whatsoever, while in their own countries that doesn’t happen.”
How does that relate to Indonesia and East Timor? The answer is, it doesn’t. It another unrelated subject you’re bringing up to stray away from answering my question.
“And imagine another westerner, who mistakenly thinks that Assad is an Islamist because he supports Hezbollah and is supported by Iran. And then an Anti-Assad activist corrects that westerner, quotes the Pro-Assad person, and shows the westerner that Assad is a secular brutal dictator who massacres and tortures Islamists without charge, and that he has Christians in his military who committed war crimes against Islamists.”
How does that relate to Indonesia and East Timor? The answer is, it doesn’t. It another unrelated subject you’re bringing up to stray away from answering my question.
“Semeru is pointing out that his own country Indonesia is a multi religious country and tolerates Christians, and that many Christians are even top military officers, and that Indonesia is not Islamist.”
LOL! Semeru mentions of christian generals when someone talks about the invasion of East Timor, not when someone talks about religious tolerance in Indonesia. Man, you’re really scrapping the bottom of the “DUMB EXCUSES” barrel, aren’t you?
“That is a fact, and I quoted that fact about the Christian Generals. I believe that I didn’t quote the part about East Timorese militia.”
You linked to one of Semeru’s posts where he blames the Timorese militias and you claimed what Semeru posted was “factual”. Don’t try to backpedal out of it.
“I am pointing out that Indonesia was a western backed dictatorship which committed war crimes and atrocities against its non-Javanese population, against Communists, Islamists, Acehnese, Timorese, Papuans, and Chinese.”
You still haven’t answered my question: do you condemn what Indonesia did in East Timor?
“I won’t answer your question, because saying no would be a lie, and saying yes would indicate that all my previous posts condemning Indonesian-Javanese massacres and atrocities on East Timorese were null and void.”
Lol, what a load of crap! Here’s what i asked:
Do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by the indonesians against the East Timorese? But according to Mazo, saying he condemns Indonesia makes him condemning Idonesia null and void! I don’t know what he’s smoking, but it’s probably the same that Obama.
“Just because you lumped me with Semeru as pro-Indonesia”
Once again, more lies and disinformation from Mazo. Like i explained, not only was he the one who brought the whole pro-indonesia issue, but also it doesn’t affect in any way his ability to answer my question.
“does not mean I am obligated to condemn something I already did to cover your embarrasment.”
More lies from Mazo. First he says he won’t condemn Indonesia because that would make him condemning Indonesia null and void, now he says that he already condemn Indonesia.
“Why should I answer the question when I already called Indonesia a dictatorship and atrocity committer.”
Once again, notice how he dodges the question while acting like he answered it. Did i asked if Indonesia was a dictatorship and atrocity committer? Nope, i asked Mazo if he condemned the invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by the Indonesians against the East Timorese.
My questions still stands Mazo. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians? Or do you prefer to play the Indonesians as the victims?
“Yes, Acehnese are more Orthodox Muslims and want Sharia, that does not mean that Indonesia has the right to massacre or torture them, the Acehnese can implement whatever they want in their own country. I acknowledge that Javanese are more tolerant of religious differences and close to Balinese Hindus, but that means nothing in the face of mass atrocities and war crimes.”
Once again, that’s unrelated to the subject of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. Not only that, bt look at what he says: “Acehnese are more Orthodox Muslims and want Sharia […] the Acehnese can implement whatever they want in their own country“. Aceh is not a country, it’s a province of Indonesia and so it’s thereby subjected to Indonesia’s laws. Not only that, not everyone in Aceh is an orthodox muslim or wants to live under sharia law. But Mazo defends that the Acehnese should be able to impose sharia law on everyone because they “ can implement whatever they want in their own country“.
Enlightening as it may be about Mazo’s position regarding the imposition of sharia law, it’s still irrelevant to what happened in East Timor.
“Many of your fellow JWatchers blame Indonesia for being Islamist (false), claim Islam was responsible for atrocities in East Timor and West Papua (false), and then feign sympathy for Timorese and Papuans.”
Which, even if it’s true, it doesn’t affect Mazo’s ability to answer my question: Do you Mazo condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by indonesians against the East Timorese?
Notice that nowhere i make mention of islam being responsible for what happened in East Timor, nor do i mention Papuans. In fact, here’s what i said when Semeru asked me if “[Was] the invasion of East Timor a holy war (jihad)?”“.
“Don’t know and don’t care. It’s obvious from my posts that i’m not saying that it was, so as far as i can tell now, that’s irrelevant for the topic at hand.”
More smoke and mirros from Mazo. Watch how he whines about people blaming islam for what happened in East TImor, even though he’s the one bringing it up. I clearly asked him if he condemned Indonesia’s actions. Here’s my question, the one he claims ha can’t answer because condemning Indonesia would make condemning Indonesia null and void:
Do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed by the Indonesians against the East Timorese?
Like i said before, i’m not mention islam in there. Nor any other religion, for that matter. I make no mention of any religion on my question, so saying that someone else claims iskam was responsible for what happened in East Timor is a failure both in logic and linguistic comprehension from him (at best) or an outright lie brought up to muddy the waters (at worst).
gravenimage says
Mazo wrote:
Yes, Acehnese are more Orthodox Muslims and want Sharia, that does not mean that Indonesia has the right to massacre or torture them, the Acehnese can implement whatever they want in their own country.
……………………..
As Angemon notes, Aceh *is not* a separate country—it is a province of Indonesia.
Moreover, the Acehnese *have* Shari’ah—and apply it to non-Muslims as well as Muslims. Notice that the sickening Muslim apologist Mazo has *no problem* with Acehnese imposition of brutal Shari’ah—including the fact that they now have *stoning* on the books there. *Ugh*.
Mazo says
My first comment ever on this issue was an attack on Indonesian war crimes. Right from the start I marked out my position against Indonesian atrocities.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1012374
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1012723
Mazo
February 23, 2014 at 2:54 pm
The only sand thrower here is you. Libyan Arab Muslims and Acehnese Muslims supported West Papuan pagans and East Timorese Christians against the Javanese dominated Indonesian government. Indonesian repression of West Papuans and East Timorese and Acehnese has to do with Javanese supremacism, not Islam.
Acehnese are native to Aceh, they are not immigrants there, and they want to rule it by their own rules. They have not invaded other people’s lands like the Dutch did when they invaded Aceh and annexed it into Indonesia.
I listed Indonesian crimes numerous times and described them as repugnant.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1032866
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1033277
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1034055
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/philippines-muslims-celebrate-milfs-peace-with-government-christians-at-site-of-jihad-massacre-less-excited/comment-page-1#comment-1029281
Mazo
March 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm
I’ve talked about this crap before, Indonesia and the Philippines were both backed by colonialist western countries against the Muslim Moros, Muslim Achenese, Animist and Christian East Timorese, Moluccans, and West Papuans, and these people all banded together with Gaddafi’s support to fight against Philippines and Indonesia.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/philippines-frees-jihad-leader-to-make-peace-with-milf
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/philippines-muslims-celebrate-milfs-peace-with-government-christians-at-site-of-jihad-massacre-less-excited/comment-page-1#comment-1029689
Mazo
March 29, 2014 at 11:12 am
Again, you express suprise that your western governments support dictatorial regimes like Suharto? America approved of Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and annexation of Papua because Indonesia was strongly anti-communist during the Cold War.
Gaddafi set up the World Mathaba Organization to coordinate weapons supplies to the Free Aceh Movement, East Timor FRETILIN, Free Papua Movement, and South Moluccan seperatists.
The Secretary General of East Timor FRETILIN was an Arab Muslim, Mari Alkatiri, While the Indonesian General Leonardus Benjamin Moerdani, who invaded East Timor, was a Roman Catholic.
Gaddafi appointed Hassan di Tiro, leader of the Muslim Free Aceh Movement, as head of Al-Mathaba. He coordinated weapons supplies to the Animists and Christians in Papua and Timor and rallied against what he called “Javanese colonialism”.
Indonesia is dominated by the Javanese ethnic group. The Javanese settled their own people in Aceh, Papua, and Timor as part of the Transmigration program. The Javanese also allowed closely related peoples like the Balinese Hindus to benefit from the program, settling several thousand Balinese Hindus in East Timorese land.
The Muslim Acehnese said they wouldn’t take any crap from the Javanese just because they were both Muslim, and Hassan di Tiro made it clear that it was not a religious, but a racial conflict with Javanese colonialists oppresing Acehnese Muslims, and East Timorese and West Papuan Christians and animists.
In the transmigration program, Muslim Madurese were also settled in other parts of Indonesia like Borneo. This angered both Muslims Malays and Animist Dayaks in Borneo, so that in 1999, the Muslim Malays and Animist Dayaks joined together to massacre several thousand Muslim Madurese.
Indonesian conflicts are overwhelmingly racial and not religious.
While voicing pro-Moro and anti-Philippine POV, I noted that Indonesia supported the Philippines
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/philippines-frees-jihad-leader-to-make-peace-with-milf/comment-page-1#comment-1016083
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/philippines-frees-jihad-leader-to-make-peace-with-milf/comment-page-1#comment-1014210
Mazo
February 26, 2014 at 8:34 pm
Indonesia is not an Islamic state. It is a Javanese dominated state. In the transmigration program, Javanese, Madurese, and Balinese benefited at the expense of Malay Muslims, Dayak animists, Moluccan and West Papuan animists and Christians. Malay Muslims and Dayaks both lashed out jointly against Madurese Muslim immigrants.
Many of the Indonesian settlers on East Timor, were Balinese Hindus and Javanese Catholics. While the East Timorese FRETILIN separatists were led by Arab Muslim Mari Alkatiri.
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“My first comment ever on this issue was an attack on Indonesian war crimes. Right from the start I marked out my position against Indonesian atrocities.”
If that were really the case, you should have no problem answering my question and condemning Indonesia for the invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese. Truth is, the core of your position (supposedly) against Indonesia is this:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1032866
“The American government supported the Marcos dictatorship in the Philippines and Suharto dictatorship in Indonesia”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/us-envoy-samantha-power-decries-religiously-motivated-violence-in-africa-doesnt-mention-jihad-in-nigeria/comment-page-1#comment-1033277
“I love how gravenimage blatantly ignores the fact that the 2006 riots were incited by Australia to unseat Alkatiri because Alkatiri opposed Australia’s grab of East Timor’s gas field, and because Alkatiri was close to China.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/philippines-muslims-celebrate-milfs-peace-with-government-christians-at-site-of-jihad-massacre-less-excited/comment-page-1#comment-1029281
“ Indonesia and the Philippines were both backed by colonialist western countries”
I see plenty of blame throwing on Western nations, but little about condemning Indonesia for its action in East Timor. C’mon, you really thought i wouldn’t check your links given your track record here? You lie, lie, and lie more so it’s no wonder your position regarding INdonesian atrocities is “westerns are responsible”.
“I listed Indonesian crimes numerous times and described them as repugnant.”
But you failed to condemn them when i asked you about it, and you engaged in personal attacks and the bringing of unrelated issues to dodge the question. It’s a simple Yes or No question: do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the attempted genocide of the East Timorese by the Indonesians?
Angemon says
Well, let’s sum up Mazo’s position on Indonesia and East Timor. He can’t bring himself to condemn the atrocities Indonesia committed in East Timor because, according to him, doing so would make condemning massacres and atrocities on East Timorese null and void. You cant make that one up folks. Well, at least I couldn’t. If i were asked whether i condemned or not what Indonesia did in East Timor my answer would be an resounding YES.
But let’s take a closer look at Mazo’s supposed condemning of Indonesian actions. There are a couple of common factor in the statements he’s trying to pass off as condemning Indonesia: 1 – all the wrongs that Indonesia ever did are somehow blame of Western nations and 2 – his defense of the acehnese muslims who, according to him, “can implement whatever they want in their own country“.
This is what the Acehnese want to implement (as Mazo puts it) “on their own country“:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/aceh-shock-as-sharia-turns-out-to-be-corrupt-and-brutal
Notice how Mazo puts it: “their own country“.
My friends, Aceh is a province of Indonesia, not a country. In fact, the indonesian government fought a civil war in to prevent the rebelling Acehnese from becoming an islamic state. Now, throughout the world we see that having groups intent on violently setting up sharia ruled states is not uncommon or unheard of, even on islamic states. And in the end, for all intents and purposes, Aceh had what they wanted – they wanted sharia law, the Indonesian government wanted Aceh to continue to be a part of Indonesia, so in order to have Aceh continue to be a part of Indonesia sharia law ended up being implemented in Aceh, full with death by stoning for something that’s not even a crime on Western countries and all the other bits and pieces that make stomachs churn in disgust if you have a working moral compass.
So, what does this tell us regarding Mazo’s position? Well, he has no issues whatsoever in blaming Western countries for atrocities committed by muslim majority countries, and he has no issues about the implementation of sharia law in aceh (which according to him is a country on its own). According to him, when indonesian butchered innocent East Timorese the blame lies with Western countries (that’s probably why he refuses to condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor. By his logic Indonesia did nothing wrong, it was all US and Australia’s fault) but if a member of the christian minority in Aceh gets killed by a raging mob for “insulting” islam (and we see that happen often in sharia-controlled nations, even though the charges are proved to be false) it’s ok because, according to him, “the Acehnese can implement whatever they want in their own country“.
Need i say anymore? His bias is obvious, it’s clear where he stands on the human rights issue, and it should now be clear the real reason to why he refuses to condemn Indonesia for what happened in East Timor.
Mazo says
The west- America and Australia both were responsble for the Suharto dictatorship even existing in the first place.
America backed Suharto seizing power in 1965 by toppling President Sukarno, the legitimate President of Indonesia, because of Sukarno’s relations with the Communist party and Communist countries. Suharto’s troops received direct Amercian military aid to carry out the coup against Sukarno, and to carry out the subsequent massacre of over 600,000, accusing them of being “communists”, when most of them were innocent and not even Communists at all.
America and Australia approved of and supported Indonesia’s invasion and massacres of East Timorese.
I have no qualms at all for blaming who is truly at fault, when JWatchers like DDA sickly and falsely claim that Islam was responsible for atrocities in Indonesia, and that Australia is a “friend” of East Timor when it supported Indonesia’s occupation, and to add insult to injury, is currently claiming East Timor’s gas fields while 90% of East Timor’s revenue comes from gas.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/east-timorese-stone-australian-embassy-20131206-hv4ll.html
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Jonathan+Manthorpe+East+Timor+challenges+Australia+control+Timor+field/8437488/story.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/15/1081838827851.html
Mazo says
Christian General Syafei insults against the Quran and Islam
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
He was responsible for butchering East Timorese during Suharto’s rule, with American support.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
America and Australia set up an arms blockade around East Timor, helping Indonesia, to stop China and Libya from arming the FRETILIN resistance.
The western backed Javanese dominated Indonesian Suharto dictatorship despised and oppressed Islamists, Communists, Acehnese, East Timorese, Chinese, West Papuans, and Moluccans.
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“The west- America and Australia both were responsble for the Suharto dictatorship even existing in the first place.”
[…]
“America and Australia approved of and supported Indonesia’s invasion and massacres of East Timorese.
I have no qualms at all for blaming who is truly at fault”
And there you have it folks. The reason why Mazo has refused to condemn Indonesia’s actions on East Timor is, like i said, because he doesn’t consider Indonesia responsible. According to him, the blame lies solely on America and Australia. Good thing he’s not pro-Indonesia, right? Otherwise he might be here trying to exonerate Indonesia for the atrocities committed in East Timor. Oh, wait…
http://www.gendercide.org/case_timor.html
“ By November of that year [1976], relief agencies in East Timor estimated that an extraordinary 100,000 Timorese had been killed since the Indonesian invasion less than a year earlier. What followed was a protracted guerrilla war by Fretilin forces, who eventually succeeded in establishing control over about half the remaining Timorese population. Indonesian “counterinsurgency” strategies reached a genocidal scale, causing widespread starvation. Indeed, Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman argued in their 1980 book, The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism, that the Indonesian assault had taken a greater per-capita toll — killing about a third of the Timorese population — than any genocide since the Jewish holocaust”
“Who was responsible?
The major share of responsibility for the genocide in East Timor since 1975 rests with the Indonesian military, which has long been the dominant force in national politics and, over the long years of occupation, amassed a wide range of lucrative economic interests in East Timor.”
“The Indonesian killing campaign was accompanied by property destruction on an almost inconceivable scale, apparently aimed at “the virtual demolition of the physical basis for survival in the territory,” according to Noam Chomsky. (“East Timor Is Not Yesterday’s Story”, ZNet, October 23, 1999.)”
“when JWatchers like DDA sickly and falsely claim that Islam was responsible for atrocities in Indonesia”
What DDA says (or not) regarding islam and Indonesia is completely unrelated to whether you condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor or not. Which you don’t because, according to you, those who are “truly at fault” are America and Australia and Indonesia had no fault whatsoever. Remember, you’re the one who claimed several times that you are not pro-Indonesian. Tell me, was it American/Australian troops that were on the ground butchering civilians? Or was it the Indonesian military?
“and that Australia is a “friend” of East Timor when it supported Indonesia’s occupation, and to add insult to injury, is currently claiming East Timor’s gas fields while 90% of East Timor’s revenue comes from gas.”
Once again, that is completely unrelated to whether you condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor or not. Which you don’t because, according to you, those who are “truly at fault” are America and Australia and Indonesia had no fault whatsoever. Remember, you’re the one who claimed several times that you are not pro-Indonesian. Tell me, was it American/Australian troops that were on the ground butchering civilians? Or was it the Indonesian military?
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“Christian General Syafei insults against the Quran and Islam
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
He was responsible for butchering East Timorese during Suharto’s rule, with American support.”
More smoke and mirrors from the self-proclaimed “not pro-Indonesia”. He’s unable to condemn Indonesia for the invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against the East Timorese because someone else tried to link islam with what happened in East Timor (i know that sounds silly but that’s his claim, so let’s just roll with it for now), but he has no qualms claiming the responsibility for what happened in East Timor lies on christans and americans.
Mazo says
Do you wonder why Noam Chomsky, a known Communist sympathizer and anti-American critic, wrote about East Timor? Because America aided the Indonesian military and turned a blind eye to the killings, which is why he chose to write an entire book.
Chomsky’s book is in fact recommended by the Moro National Liberation Front’s website at mnlfnet.com in its reading section, the Moro MNLF were allied with Gaddafi’s Al-Mathaba, which was also allied to East Timorese FRETILIN, Acehnese separatists, and West Papuans.
Should I refuse to condemn Hitler for the Holocaust, and instead condemn only the German military and Waffen SS? How about when America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”?
You also alternately use the words atrocities and genocide. “Genocide” has nothing to do with whether the method of killing was done in a horrific manner. It means the systematic extermnation of a religious or ethnic group. There are atrocities which have been conducted more horrifically than genocides.
For example, Nazi Germany tried to exterminate the Jews. However, except for twisted experiements by Dr Mengele, they largely did not try to kill or torture Jews in a sadistic manner, in fact their main concern was just killing as many jews as possible in the fastest time possible. Since they regarded Jews as subhumans, they even punished German men who raped Jewish women since they had sexual relations with a “subhuman”. They stuck to their own principles.
The Japanese on the other hand tried killing, torturing, raping, and experimenting people in the most sadistic ways possible, with their infamous experiments in Unit 731, vivisections on live prisoners, mass rape, comfort women, bayoneting and beheading contests.
However, the Japanese actions did not constitute genocide because they was no attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic group, even though they were far more sadistic, unprincipled, and evil than the Nazis.
Genocide is not a measure of evil or how horrific the killings were, it is used to described the intent the of killings, the destruction of a certain group of people.
Indonesia did not try to wipe out any east timorese ethnic group, nor did it try to wipe out Catholics, when the invading Indonesian General himself was Catholic. Indonesia tried to suppress any oppostion to its rule by committing massacres and atrocities, its aim was not genocide but crushing Timor into total submission.
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf
I repeatedly condemned the western backed Indonesian regime of Suharto for its atrocities, why do I have to drop the qualifier “western”?
Same for the Philippines, I called the Philippine atrocities against Moros as “western” back Philippine dictator Marcos committing massacres against Moros, who are Muslims, I never saw you complaining about me pointing that out.
Ashamed that your countries supported mass murdering Indonesian dictator Suharto?
veggiedog says
The did not torture the Jews? Are you saying starving them yo death was a kindness, are you re-writting history? Unreal, i could not even read yhe rest of your post as this just is so outrageous.
gravenimage says
Mazo wrote:
For example, Nazi Germany tried to exterminate the Jews. However, except for twisted experiements by Dr Mengele, they largely did not try to kill or torture Jews in a sadistic manner…
…………………………
Good God—apologia for *the Holocaust*. Ultimately not terribly surprising, though…
Angemon says
The desperate Mazo posted:
“Do you wonder why Noam Chomsky, a known Communist sympathizer and anti-American critic, wrote about East Timor? Because America aided the Indonesian military and turned a blind eye to the killings, which is why he chose to write an entire book.”
And he being a known Communist sympathizer and anti-American critic is therefore unbiased, right?
“Should I refuse to condemn Hitler for the Holocaust, and instead condemn only the German military and Waffen SS?”
Notice what the weasel, slimy way Mazo tries to get away with. If he were truly trying to make an unbiased comparison between Nazi Germany and Indonesia then Suharto would be the equivalent to Hitler and my question would be, for example, “Do you condemn the Germanic invasion of Russia and the atrocities committed by the Germans against the Russians?”. Nowhere i asked him to refuse to condemn someone in Indonesia, i asked him plain and simply if he condemned Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities committed against by the Indonesians against the East Timorese. Also notice that while he and Semeru named only christian members of the military they hold responsible, i never pointed any given individual as the responsible for what Indonesia did, i blamed Indonesia as a whole. So his remark about refusing to condemn Hitler fails because i never asked him to refuse to condemn any particular individual.
“You also alternately use the words atrocities and genocide. “Genocide” has nothing to do with whether the method of killing was done in a horrific manner. It means the systematic extermnation of a religious or ethnic group. There are atrocities which have been conducted more horrifically than genocides.”
So, like any pathetic troll, Mazo has to resort to argue semantics. Tell me, was the extermination of the East Timorese done in a systematic manner or not? Was it done in a horrific manner or not?
“Indonesia did not try to wipe out any east timorese ethnic group, nor did it try to wipe out Catholics, when the invading Indonesian General himself was Catholic.”
http://www.gendercide.org/case_timor.html
“Who was responsible?
The major share of responsibility for the genocide in East Timor since 1975 rests with the Indonesian military
http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/03-263_Ch_09.pdf
“The two genocides [Cambodia and East Timor]that began in 1975 were also each in turn followed by extended foreign occupation and, finally, by United Nations intervention.”
[…]
“But the crimes committed a decade later in East Timor, with a toll of 150,000 in a population of 650,000, clearly meet a range of sociological definitions of genocide used by most scholars of the phenomenon, who see both political and ethnic groups as possible victims of genocide”
“The Genocide
Indonesian massacres of Timorese began on the first day of the December 1975 landing. Dunn calls the assault on Dili “one of the most brutal operations of its kind in modern warfare.”
[…]
“On November 12, 1979, Indonesia’s new foreign minister, Mochtar Kusumaatmadja, estimated that 120,000 Timorese had died since 1975.
The pressures of full-scale invasion and ongoing genocide initially brought to the fore Fretilin’s harshest and most radical elements, who began to predominate in the resistance.”
[…]
“But he [Xanana] also lamented that “humanity had closed its eyes to the extermination of the Maubere people, a genocide carried out by the assassinating forces of the Indonesian occupation”
[…]
“How did resistance continue and function under conditions of Indonesian imposed famine and genocide?”
[…]
“Jakarta was unable to achieve its goal of conquest. But what underlying ideology justified genocide in the attempt?”
“Conclusion
Cambodia and East Timor were both subjected to genocide in 1975–79.”
“I repeatedly condemned the western backed Indonesian regime of Suharto for its atrocities, why do I have to drop the qualifier “western”?”
Here’s what you said:
“America and Australiaapproved of and supported Indonesia’s invasion and massacres of East Timorese.
I have no qualms at all for blaming who istruly at fault”
(my emphasys)
Hmmm, it seems like you’re saying that the fault truly lies in America and Australia. Not with the country which has long been the dominant force in national politics and, over the long years of occupation, amassed a wide range of lucrative economic interests in East Timor.
“Same for the Philippines, I called the Philippine atrocities against Moros as “western” back Philippine dictator Marcos committing massacres against Moros, who are Muslims, I never saw you complaining about me pointing that out.”
Notice how the weasel tries to sway the argument away from what i asked him about Indonesia. I said several times he brought up unrelated issues to dodge my question, and he’s doing the same here. The Philippines are one of those unrelated issues and yet here he’s, trying to bait me into an argument that bears no importance to what i asked him. Notice that he’s been exposed, he claims he’s not pro-Indonesia but not only he refused to condemn what Indonesia did in East Timor he also he said that America and Australia are the ones “truly at fault” for what happened in East Timor. He is, however, a staunch defender of the Acehnese muslims, which, according to him can “ implement whatever they want in their own country“. And here’s what they’ve been “implementing” (and by “implementing” i mean “forcing upon everyone, even non-muslims”, but you won’t hear Mazo condemn any of it because it’s not a secular law, in which case he’d certainly denounce the brutalities of secular stoning and secular public lashings):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/aceh-shock-as-sharia-turns-out-to-be-corrupt-and-brutal
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/02/07/aceh-fully-enforces-sharia.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/indonesia-sharia-to-apply-to-non-muslims-in-aceh
“Ashamed that your countries supported mass murdering Indonesian dictator Suharto?”
Nope, i’m not Indonesian, so… But aren’t you ashamed of defending a country responsible for committing atrocities and genocide?
(BTW, i’m talking about Indonesia, not Germany, despite your subtle nod of approval at the extermination of Jews.)
Angemon says
I think i need to stress this out:
“You also alternately use the words atrocities and genocide. “Genocide” has nothing to do with whether the method of killing was done in a horrific manner. It means the systematic extermnation of a religious or ethnic group. There are atrocities which have been conducted more horrifically than genocides.””
Mazo claims i’m using “genocide” and “atrocities” alternatively, and he claims i’m wrong in doing so, like if what happened in East Timor was neither a genocide nor atrocities ever took place. But notice what he says later on:
“Indonesia tried to suppress any oppostion to its rule by committing massacres and atrocities, its aim was not genocide but crushing Timor into total submission.”
Here’s the definition of genocide:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide
genocide
[jen-uh-sahyd]
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Let’s take another look at Mazo’s definition of genocide:
“It means the systematic extermnation of a religious or ethnic group”
See the difference? He purposedly leaves out the “national” and “political” parts (let’s go with “religious” being the same as “cultural”), even though he admits that Indonesia persecuted a group based on their political views (one commander even called for the obliteration of Fretilin “to the fourth generation”).
So yeah, sometimes i said “genocide”, others i said “atrocities” not because i think they’re synonymous like he claims but because not only there’s undeniable evidence both took place in East Timor but because i was trying to avoid semantic satiation as well.
What we have here is Mazo, a self proclaimed not pro-Indonesia, once again trying to whitewash what Indonesia did in East Timor (remember, he holds America and Australia to be truly at fault for what happened).
Mazo says
Then America tried to commit genocide against the Vietcong since they were a political group? Are you out of your mind?
Learn to read.
http://www.cja.org/article.php?list=type&type=198
To the United States, which had recently withdrawn from South Vietnam, Fretilin’s success seemed to confirm the worst fears of a Communist “domino effect” sweeping South-East Asia. To Indonesian nationalists, including the virulently anti-Communist President Suharto, the decolonization of East Timor presented a chance to both annex East Timor and liquidate a perceived Communist threat. Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was unequivocal in his support for the Suharto regime. On December 6, 1975, he and US President Ford met with Suharto in Jakarta just days before the invasion. According to recently declassified memos, Ford and Kissinger agreed to establish small-arms factories in Indonesia.
The following day, on December 7, 1975, Indonesia launched Operation Komodo, the general invasion of East Timor. Notified days later, Kissinger’s primary concern was how to spin the fact that American weaponry would likely be used in an illegal act of aggression: “The use of US-made arms could create problems.” But he added, “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation…it is important that
http://fundasaunmahein.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/publication_file_fr_287.pdf
Beijing assembled equipment sufficient to arm a light infantry division of 8,000 men, including medium anti-aircraft machine guns, light artillery, mortars and infantry anti-tank weapons. However, the Indonesian naval blockade with assistance from the Australian navy prevented the delivery of the equipment to the Timorese.5
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
On genocide
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf
WAS THE CONFLICT IN EAST TIMOR ‘GENOCIDE’ AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?
Was the Conflict in East Timor ‘Genocide’?
BEN SAUL*
[In the intense mass media reporting of the post-independence ballot violence in East Timor in September 1999, frequent reference was made to the term ‘genocide’. The characterisation of the violence as genocide was driven by comments made by East Timorese independence leaders, human rights advocates, and journalists themselves. Yet very few commentators analysed whether the violence in East Timor — both before and after the independence ballot — satisfied the international legal definition of ‘genocide’ under the Genocide Convention. This article considers why it matters whether the conflict in East Timor should or should not be characterised as genocide, from practical and philosophical perspectives. It then assesses whether the violence against the East Timorese in the post-ballot period of September 1999, and the pre-ballot period from December 1975 to October 1999, can accurately be described as genocide under international law. The article concludes by discussing whether genocide was prohibited as a crime under domestic law in East Timor during the relevant periods. The probability that the violence in East Timor did not legally amount to ‘genocide’ under the international definition raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.]
You refer to the Christian Generals as a “handful”, yet these Christian Generals were the architects of both suppresing political Islam and Islamists within Indonesia, and invading East Timor and West Papua
General Moerdani was the one in charge of the entire invasion plan of East Timor and he was involved in West Papua’s takeover.
General Syafei insulted Islam and the Quran repeatedly in public and was never punished or reprimanded.
http://voa-islam.com/news/indonesiana/2011/04/30/14434/jelang-ajal-sang-islam-phobi-theo-syafei-diserang-kanker-otak-langka/
Both of them worked to suppress Islamists and practicing Muslims in the Indonesian army and stop political Islam from rising to power in Indonesia.
Angemon says
The infuriated Mazo posted:
“Learn to read.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/nunestimor.html
On genocide
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf
WAS THE CONFLICT IN EAST TIMOR ‘GENOCIDE’ AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?
Was the Conflict in East Timor ‘Genocide’?
BEN SAUL*
[…]
The probability that the violence in East Timor did not legally amount to ‘genocide’ under the international definition raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.]”
Mazo, it’s you who need to learn how to read, Look at what’s written there; is says that if what happened in East Timor does not amounting to genocide then it raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.
I’m going to explain what that means like if you’re a really, really stupid person: If what happened in East Timor is not genocide then the Genocide Convention is not doing its job and should be reformed. You’re taking an “if… then” scenario and trying to present it as being “certainly not”. Are you that stupid, or do you think we’re that stupid (BTW, if you think that we’re that stupid then it’s you who is that stupid)?
I’ve told you before: you’ve been caught laying too many times to simply take your words at face value. If you simply state something then it’s assumed you’re lying. If you provide a source/link then we will check your source to see if it matches what you’re saying. And much more often than not, it doesn’t. In fact, sometimes it even says the opposite of what you’re claiming, like now.
“You refer to the Christian Generals as a “handful”, yet these Christian Generals were the architects of both suppresing political Islam and Islamists within Indonesia, and invading East Timor and West Papua”
Notice how the self proclaimed not pro-Indonesia Mazo always tries to blame christians for the actions of the Indonesian government.
“General Syafei insulted Islam and the Quran repeatedly in public and was never punished or reprimanded.”
Oh, what a serious crime! A christian insulting islam and not being reprimanded or punished! What a serious offense, why isn’t he lynched on the streets? Why aren’t the sharia-imposing Achenese doing something about it? And the more important question, how does insulting islam affects on whatever you claim they did?
“Both of them worked to suppress Islamists and practicing Muslims in the Indonesian army and stop political Islam from rising to power in Indonesia.”
Once again, notice how the sharia supporter Mazo is fuming at the prospect of political islam not being allowed to take over Indonesia.
Hey Mazo, my question stands: do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the genocide and atrocities committed against by the Indonesians against the East Timorese? Yes or No?
Mazo says
Holy #### now Angemon is resorting to attributing totally false claims to me like gravenimage does.
He claims I “blame the victim”, and nowhere did I say anything about blaming East Timorese for getting invaded, I did not even quote the part where Semeru talked about
East Timorese militia and purposefully deleted that because it had nothing to do with my point when I listed the Generals involved in the invasion.
I even said some atrocities could be more horrific than genocides, I said Japanese atrocities were more horrific than German Holocaust, if there is someone only one member of an ethnic group, and someone shoots him with the INTENT of wiping out that ethnic group, that is considered genocide, but if a serial killer rapes, tortures, mutilates and kills 50 random people, that is not genocide.
I even posted this arricle which Angemon says “refutes” my claims- no it doesn’t, it clearly talks about INTENT of the atrocities, whether it was the INTENT to destroy an ethnic group, which I pointed out determined what consisted of genocide.
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf
II Distinguishing Genocide from other Crimes
III Was the Violence in East Timor Genocide?
A Elements of the Crime of Genocide
1 Membership of a Group
2 Intention to Destroy the Group
B Definition of Acts Amounting to Genocide
And Angemon says me posting this article refutes myself, LOL. No, I agree with the article, I stated that atrocities can be more horrible than what is considered genocide (according to international law). People should change the law.
One wonders why Angemon tried to associate me with Semeru and Indonesia in the first place- is it because Philip Jihadski accused me and Semeru of being the same person? I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once, the reason I mentioned East timor and Indonesia was in RESPONSE to JWatchers like DDA(Voldemort’s Army) trying to pin the blame on Islam for Indonesian mass murders and atrocities, which is why I refute their claims and point out that the West and Christians backed the atrocities.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/number-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza-into-israel-reaches-130-and-still-climbing/comment-page-1#comment-1022050
AGAIN, my first post on the issue was an attack on Indonesia and a rebuttal to Dumbledoresarmy (voldemort’s army) blaming Islam for East Timor-
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1012374
Mazo
February 22, 2014 at 3:13 pm
@dumbledoresarmy
Excuse me, but judging from your sweeping remarks, you have no idea about the political situation in southeast asia and are ignorantly chalking it up to “Muslim” vs “non-Muslim”.
The situation is two oppresive governments, Indonesia and the Philippines, waging war against both Christian and Muslim separatist minorities.
In Indonesia, the separatism is based on ethnic lines. Both Muslim, Christians, and pagan minorities in Indonesia allied together to fight the Javanese dominated Indonesian government.
During colonial times, the Dutch ensured Javanese supremacy over all other ethnic groups and moved ethnic Muslim Javanese and Muslim Madurese settlers to Borneo, Papua, and other places. This not only pissed off the pagan Papuans, the Acehnese Muslims in Sumatra and the Malay Muslims in Borneo were equally pissed off at the Dutch dumping Javanese and Madurese Muslims in their land.
The four main separatists movements in Indonesia were the Muslim Free Aceh Movement led by Hasan Di Tiro, the Christian South Molucca separatists, the pagan/Christian Free Papua Movement led by Jacob Prai, and the East Timor separatists. They allies together and with the Moro separatists in the Philippines.
One of the East Timorese FRETILIN separatist leaders was an Arab Muslim, Mari Alkatiri, who became the First Prime Minister of East Timor. He led the struggle against Indonesian rule and was close to China, which was why you Australians didn’t like him. He moved East Timor close to China’s orbit.
Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan strongman, supported all of the separatists in Indonesia and the Philippines under the Mathaba network. Hasan Di Tiro, the Achenese separatist leader, took control of Mathaba with Gaddafi’s support.
The Muslim Acehnese separatists under Hasan Di Tiro openly announced their support to the Chrisian and pagan West Papuan, Maluccan, and East Timorese separatists, saying that all minorities in Indonesia should be liberated from Javanese domination. Under Mathaba, the Libyans and Muslim Acehnese, trained and armed the Christian and pagan West Papaun fighters, the East Timorese FRETILIN fighters, and the Moro Muslim separatists in the Philippines.
As a result, Indonesia and the Philippines supported each other in cracking down on each other’s separatists. The Moro separatists were furious at Indonesia for siding with the Philippines, Indonesia helping the Philippines try to enter the OIC, and blocking Moro independence.
In Indonesia itself, after the anti-Chinese riots in Java, later in 1999, there were little publicized mass riots going on in Borneo. It involved Malay Muslims allying with Dayak animists, against Madurese Muslims.
The Dutch colonialists and the Javanese dominated Indonesian government had been moving Madurese Muslim colonists onto Dayak and Malay land in Borneo. The Malays had good relations with the local non-Muslim Chinese and Dayaks, but they hated and despised the Madurese, despite sharing the same religion. As a result, the Malays and Dayaks carried out mass murders and rapes against the Madurese, with the Indonesian government not lifting a finger to stop the violence.
If you study Philippines and Indonesian history, you would find that the evidence is on the side of the separatists, both the Muslims and the pagan/Christians. The Spanish and Dutch colonialists initiated the wars against the Moros and others.
The Moros practiced a form of Islam mixed with animism and Hindu-Buddhist influences, since they were converted peacefully by preachers. They never practiced full Sharia.
Look particularly at the Chinese minority community in the Philippines. The Chinese were pagans. The Spanish actively persecuted the Chinese minority for being non-Catholic, forcing them to live in the parang ghetto in Manila, levying higher taxes on them, and periodically massacring and expelling them.
By contrast, the Moro Sultans allowed the Chinese community to build temples in their capital, and form massive trading communities with no Jizya, ghetto, or persecution. Sometimes Chinese men even married Moros without converting to Islam since their practice of Islam was very lax.
Chinese pagans sided with the Moros in battle against the Spanish. In the 18th century, several thousand Chinese expelled from Manila joined the Moro armies to fight, and in the 19th century, Chinese traders were actively involved in shipping guns to the Moros to fight the Spanish.
The Moros also resisted and fought the Japanese in World War 2. The Japanese faced particularly fierce resistance from the Moros, while in Indonesia, the Javanese collaborated and sided with Japan.
The Philippine government and Indonesian government both engaged in demographic flooding, the Philippines sent millions of Filipino Christian colonists from Visayas and Luzon to colonize Moro land on Mindanao, the Indonesian government also sent millions of Javanese and Madurese to colonized Papuan, Moluccan, Dayak, Malay, Acehnese, and Timorese land.
The Flipino colonists engaged in brutal atrocities under the ilaga militia. These Filipinos mixed Catholicism with brutal animist practicies. Some Filipino Ilaga Militiamen killed an Italian Catholic priest and ate his brains in a ceremony.
In Indonesia, the Muslim Acehnese collaborated with pagan and Christians to fight the Muslim Javanese dominated government, thats because the fight isn’t about religion, its about ethnicity.
Please approach history with an open mind, and not with any bias towards on religion or another. I’m not making any comments on Islam or Christianity themselves (in fact I noted that Moros were lax Muslims, they didn’t levy Jizya on Chinese like they are required to in Islam, same with the Filipino cannibals who ate the Italian Priest, they weren’t true Catholics), just don’t apply the lens of religion to history because it is not what it seems.
God bless the East Timorese, West Papuans, Moros, Acehnese, south Moluccans, Chinese, and even the Indonesian Javanese and Filipino oppresors, we should hope and pray that the suffering and violence comes to an end and that all the minorities will have their full rights and autonomy.
I wonder why Angemon thinks that it is necesary to ask ME to condemn Indonesian atrocities in East Timor, just because I talked about Indonesia and East Timor IN RESPONSE to claims from people like DDA, who blatantly and falsely blamed Islam for Indonesia’s invasion, why doesn’t Angemon ask DDA and gravenimage to condemn western, American and Australia support of Indonesian atrocities against Timorese and Papuans? Their countries supported and still support Indonesia today, the onus is on them, not me, to condemn it.
Angemon says
The utterly defeated Mazo posted:
“Holy #### now Angemon is resorting to attributing totally false claims to me like gravenimage does”
“Tamaskan, tatamkan.” (play the victim, you will win – Arab proverb). That’s what Mazo is doing now. Minus the win part 😀
“He claims I “blame the victim”, and nowhere did I say anything about blaming East Timorese for getting invaded, I did not even quote the part where Semeru talked about”
Pitiful little liar says i claim he said he blamed East Timor for getting invaded. Which i didn’t, hence why he doesn’t have a link to a post of me saying so. More lies from Mazo. Once again, what a shocker!
“I even said some atrocities could be more horrific than genocides”
When you tried to deny that what happened in East Timor was a genocide.
“I even posted this arricle which Angemon says “refutes” my claims- no it doesn’t, it clearly talks about INTENT of the atrocities, whether it was the INTENT to destroy an ethnic group, which I pointed out determined what consisted of genocide.
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf”
Actually, on your first quotation of that article you quoted a bit more of that article:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044217
“the probability that the violence in East Timor did not legally amount to ‘genocide’ under the international definition raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.
Like i noted here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044250
“Mazo, it’s you who need to learn how to read, Look at what’s written there; is says that if what happened in East Timor does not amounting to genocide then it raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.
I’m going to explain what that means like if you’re a really, really stupid person: If what happened in East Timor is not genocide then the Genocide Convention is not doing its job and should be reformed. You’re taking an “if… then” scenario and trying to present it as being “certainly not”.”
What we have here is Mazo selectively quoting an article that says that if the standards of the Genocide convention don’t acknowledge that what happened in East Timor was a genocide then the Genocide convention should be reformed. It’s the exact opposite that what Mazo now tries to claim through selectively quoting. So yeah, the article you choose to quote still says the opposite from what you claim it says. Before you were in the position of someone who made a dumb mistake by not bothering to read what the article said before quoting from it, now you’re in the position of someone who made a dumb mistake by not bothering to read what the article said before quoting from it and tried to cover its ass it by quote mining and trying to to reinterpret it. Before you were dumb, now you’re dumb, ill-intended and a sore loser.
“No, I agree with the article, I stated that atrocities can be more horrible than what is considered genocide (according to international law). People should change the law.”
Ah, Mazo is in full liar mode! Not only the “atrocities are worse than genocide” was a point he made (not something the article tried to make, hence why he’s lying), if he really agrees with the article then he agrees that what happened in East Timor was a genocide. Here’s a quote from the article Mazo doesn’t want you to see:
“The conflict in East Timor most accurately qualifies as genocide against a ‘political group’, or alternatively as ‘cultural genocide’,”
Hey, remember when i defined genocide?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044070
“Here’s the definition of genocide:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide
genocide
[jen-uh-sahyd]
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group<.”
So, the article Mazo brought to defend his claim that there was no genocide in East Timor clearly states that there was a genocide, and it does so by using the definition i gave and which was refuted by Mazo! Folks, you can’t make this stuff up! Mazo quoted an article without reading it, fell flat on his ass because of it, and when trying to make it better he fell flat on his face! 😀 😀 😀 😀
We have that, we have the part where it says that if what happened in East Timor wasn’t genocide then the definition of genocide needs to be changed. And yet, according to Mazo, that article does not refute his claim that there was no genocide in East Timor. Poor little Mazo is delusional 😉
“One wonders why Angemon tried to associate me with Semeru and Indonesia in the first place- is it because Philip Jihadski accused me and Semeru of being the same person?”
Ah, notice how Mazo tries to rehash his material. He accused me of claiming he and Semeru are one and the same to avoid answering my question whether he condemned Indonesia’s actions in East Timor. Like i explained, he made that accusation based solely on creative reinterpretation of an old post of mine. It was so irrelevant back then as it is now. And whether PJ accused Mazo and Semeru of being one and the same is also irrelevant to any of Mazo’s claims, although it’s funny the mess Mazo got himself into by bringing that up. If neither of us accused them of being the same, then it’s a lie Mazo commonly uses to draw away from the argument at hand. If both of us did, then it’s strange how two different users reached the same conclusion, isn’t it? 😀
“ I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once,”
Except when you blamed America and Australia for what happened in East Timor. And when you denied the genocide that took place in East Timor.
“, the reason I mentioned East timor and Indonesia was in RESPONSE to JWatchers like DDA(Voldemort’s Army) trying to pin the blame on Islam for Indonesian mass murders and atrocities”
Actually, you were the one who first brought up Indonesia. On your first post here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041020
Also, i believe that was your second post here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041167
More Indonesia!
In any way, whether they claim islam is to blame or not you should be able to say something like “Yes, Indonesia invaded East Timor and committed atrocities and genocide against the East Timorese, but that had nothing to do with islam”. If you refuse to condemn what Indonesia did because you don’t want islam to look bad then you’re acknowledging that islam had something to do with Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide committed against the East Timorese.
“which is why I refute their claims and point out that the West and Christians backed the atrocities.”
Actually, going by your claim, one would believe Americans, Australians and Christians, and not the Indonesian army, were the ones on the ground doing the killing in East Timor. Regardless of that, i asked you if you condemned Indonesia for what happened in East Timor, not islam, so whatever you claim DDA says bares no importance to the question i asked you.
“I wonder why Angemon thinks that it is necesary to ask ME to condemn Indonesian atrocities in East Timor”
I wonder why Mazo goes to such great lengths to avoid answering my question.
“ why doesn’t Angemon ask DDA and gravenimage to condemn western, American and Australia support of Indonesian atrocities against Timorese and Papuans? Their countries supported and still support Indonesia today, the onus is on them, not me, to condemn it.”
Ha ha, Mazo thinks he’s so smart, trying to weasel his way out of my question by playing the false equivalence game! I’m asking you whether you condemn Indonesia’s actions or not. What other people think about the US and Australia bears absolutely no influence about what you think of Indonesia. Tell you what, answer my question and i’ll ask them 😉
So Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor? The invasion, the atrocities, the genocide… Do you condemn them? Yes or No?
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once”
Notice the dishonesty oozing down from every word. Mazo would have us believe that he is not a staunch supporter of Indonesia, even though he denied the genocide of the East Timorese and placed that blame of Indonesia’s actions on Australia and America. But according to him, it’s ok because he never said a positive word about Indonesia. Taqqyia-based deception at it’s finest:
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/
“Following their prophet’s example, many leading Muslim figures have used tawriya, such as Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, founder of one of Islam’s four schools of law, practiced in Saudi Arabia (the teachings of which have spread far and wide among the world’s Muslims, thanks to Saudi funding). Once when Hanbal was conducting class, someone came knocking, asking for one of his students. Hanbal answered, “He’s not here, what would he be doing here?”—all the time pointing at his hand, as if to say “he’s not in my hand.” The caller, who could not see Hanbal’s hands, assumed the student was simply not there and left.
voegelinian says
“How about when America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”?”
I doubt Mazo has evidence to back up this wild allegation (just to pick one wild allegation out of several in his posts).
Mazo says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965–66#Foreign_involvement_and_reaction
Angemon says
Quoting from your link:
“Internationally, the killings and purges were seen as a victory over Communism at the height of the Cold War. Western governments and much of the West’s media preferred Suharto and the “New Order” to the PKI and the increasingly leftist “Old Order””
Here’s what you said:
“How about when America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”?”
It says the Western government and media prefered Suharto to the PKI. Where in that link says that America told Suharto to kill them?
Here’s more from the link you provided:
“According to Kathy Kadane, members of the US government provided targeted names to the Indonesian Army,[70] which several US officials have denied.[71] Internal memos reported an Indonesian request for “communications equipment and small arms to arm Moslem and nationalist youths in Central Java for use against the PKI”, which the State Department refused.[72] H.W. Brands wrote that the Johnson administration expressly refused to supply weapons for the mass killing of Indonesian communists.[73]According to Robert Cribb, there is no evidence that the United States significantly increased the scale of the killings.[74]
However, Mark Aarons argues that declassified intelligence reports indicate that “the CIA actually compiled detailed lists of those it deemed dangerous and supplied them to Suharto’s forces who ensured those so named were eliminated in the mass killing operations.”[1] Alex Bellamy concurs, noting the Indonesian army used a list containing some 5,000 names of suspected PKI members, which was provided to them by the U.S. embassy in Jakarta, to identify some victims.”
Not only there’s a 595,000 difference between the number of suspected PKI members given by the US embassy and the number you claimed (which was 120 times larger), there’s also the matter that nowhere in there says that the America asked to have 600,000 suspected communists killed. In fact, it flat out says that “there is no evidence that the United States significantly increased the scale of the killings”
Once again, Mazo tries to exonerate the Indonesian government and blame America without providing a shred of evidence to back his claim. What’s even worse is that the link he provided as evidence to his claim actually contradicts his claim. What’s the deal with that?
Here’s what i said before:
If he actually wants to write something meaningful he should stick to the basics: declare an argument; make supporting statements related to the topic; and draw a conclusion that isn’t off on some wild tangent from the original hypothesis.
Nowhere in there i said to declare an argument and quote sources who contradict your argument because that would be incredibly stupid.
Mazo says
It wasnt just the American embassy, American consulates in places as remote as Sumatra worked to supply Indonesian murderers with names
http://www.filmcomment.com/entry/interview-joshua-oppenheimer-the-act-of-killing
But it was very easy to gain these men’s trust. The United States supported the genocide—they knew that, they were consulting with the American consulate in Medan during the killings, they knew that America supported the military regime that was in power ever since, and they knew that I was an American filmmaker, and they loved American movies. And anybody who had enough money to actually fly into Indonesia and leave Indonesia in North Sumatra, it was just assumed that I was on the side of the people who had enough money to come and go—who are the people with some power, and so therefore I was on their side.
http://www.indiewire.com/article/futures-joshua-oppenheimer-the-director-of-the-years-most-disturbing-and-controversial-doc-explains-why-he-needed-to-work-with-the-heads-of-indonesian-death-squads-to-re-enact-mass-murders
How did you convince the men to participate in the film?
The recreation of a murder in “The Act of Killing”
It was very easy to win these men’s trust because all I had to do was show up as an American filmmaker and they assume I make the kind of movies they love. They have no notion of documentary. They assume that as an American I’m on their side. They assume that because the Americans supported this during the time and helped pay for the killings. Anwar and his men were getting advice and reporting to the American consul during the killings. Ever since, too, the US supported the military dictatorship that was there and now supports the so-called reformed Indonesia. We can see from the film just how reformed it is. All I had to do was be how you and I would be with each other: be nice, be kind, be caring when someone was going through a hard time, and repress.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/07/the-weird-genius-of-the-act-of-killing.html
On June 19, 1966, James Reston published a column in the New York Times titled “A Gleam of Light in Asia.” Nearly two thousand Americans had died in Vietnam the year before, followed by six thousand more in 1966, and Reston, a Pulitzer Prize winner who would soon become the Times executive editor, sought to acknowledge “more hopeful political developments elsewhere in Asia.” He emphasized the case of Indonesia, which had recently undergone an elaborate and bloody regime change “from a pro-Chinese policy” to “a defiantly anti-Communist policy.” Reston rightly described the removal of Indonesia’s President, Sukarno, from power and the upheaval that followed as a “savage transformation.” Beginning in late 1965, paramilitary groups and assorted thugs deputized by the country’s soon-to-be dictator, General Suharto, executed at least half a million people in a so-called anti-Communist purge. Starving prisoners were dumped into rivers alongside corpses; women were molested and raped; victims were shot, beheaded with swords, and dismembered while still alive; thousands more, spared death, were forced into concentration camps and prisons.
Despite the savagery, Reston argued that Sukarno’s ouster was something about which Americans could feel not only optimistic (“control of this large and strategic archipelago is no longer in the hands of men fiercely hostile to the United States”) but proud. “It is doubtful if the coup would ever have been attempted without the American show of strength in Vietnam,” Reston wrote, “or been sustained without the clandestine aid it has received indirectly from here.” In the years since, a fuller picture has emerged about how America aided the anti-Communist insurgencies in Indonesia—one of the biggest dominoes around—beginning in the late fifties: running covert bombing missions, furnishing weapons, supplying Suharto with the names of Indonesian Communists. “Communist” was a broad and exploitable category during the purge—a justification to kill people deemed undesirable for any number of reasons. In a top-secret intelligence report from 1968, since declassified, the C.I.A. called the massacre it had supported “one of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century, along with the Soviet purges of the 1930s, the Nazi mass murders during the Second World War, and the Maoist bloodbath of the early 1950s.”
The text that appears on-screen at the start of “The Act of Killing,” an astonishing new documentary that opens this Friday, alludes to “the direct aid of western governments,” but the film, directed by Joshua Oppenheimer, quickly arrives at its chief subject: the men who carried out the mass killings, and their discordantly cheerful recollections of that slaughter. (Anthony Lane reviews the film in this week’s magazine.) In 2012, Indonesia’s National Commission on Human Rights submitted a report to the country’s Attorney General, based on interviews with hundreds of former prisoners; it acknowledged the purge’s “gross human rights violations” and recommended legal action against those responsible. But many of the most prominent perpetrators remain aligned with entrenched Indonesian powers (the country’s current President is a former army general), and have never had to answer for their actions. While filming in Medan, the capital of North Sumatra, Oppenheimer found several men, now in middle and advanced age, who were overwhelmingly eager to discuss their roles in the purge, bragging about their cruelty and the brutal efficiency of their methods for extorting, strangling, and drowning victims. The central figure of Oppenheimer’s documentary, a nattily dressed septuagenarian called Anwar Congo, is rumored to have personally executed a thousand people. Details of the purge do not appear in Indonesian schoolbooks, and Communists are prohibited from organizing into parties. In the dominant version of Indonesian history, killers like Congo are cast as heroes.
Mazo says
Historian Brad Simpson has this to say about America and the western role in the “genocide”, since I’m going by your standards now,
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3255genocide.htm
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3200genocide.htm
http://www.insideindonesia.org/feature-editions/accomplices-in-atrocity
Accomplices in atrocity
The mass killings of 1965-66 in Indonesia were international, not just local, events – and the US played an important role
Brad Simpson
Confidential documents reveal the secrets of 1965
Brad Simpson
Recalling the mass killings in Indonesia following the 30 September 1965 movement, Howard Federspiel, the US State Department’s intelligence staffer for Indonesia, observed that ‘No one cared as long as they were Communists, that they were being butchered.’ Indeed, it is hard to find any western governments that expressed concern about what the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) called one of the great mass murders of modern history. Far from it. Western governments, led by the United States, actively sought to create conditions that would lead to a violent clash between the army and the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) and, once the mass killings began, offered quiet but enthusiastic support to the Indonesian army. The killings of 1965 and 1966 were, in other words, international events of global significance, as the governments that supported the army in carrying out the killings recognised.
Encouraging a violent clash
For nearly a decade preceding the events of 30 September 1965 the US feared the growing radicalism and anti-westernism of President Sukarno and the increasing political power of the PKI. These twin fears led the Eisenhower Administration into a massive and disastrous covert operation in support of the regional rebellions of 1957-1958, events that led directly to Sukarno’s abandonment of parliamentary democracy and the implementation of the authoritarian system known as Guided Democracy. Eisenhower’s successors, John F Kennedy and Lyndon B Johnson, each used programs of economic, technical and military assistance to encourage a greater role for the Indonesian armed forces in Indonesia’s economic and political life as a means of blunting or reversing the influence of the PKI.
In August 1964, as relations between the US and Indonesia deteriorated rapidly, in part due to Sukarno’s confrontation with Britain over the formation of Malaysia, the US went further, adopting a covert strategy aimed at sparking a violent conflict between the military and the PKI. In doing so the US joined Britain, which had adopted a covert warfare approach in 1963, attempting to frustrate Indonesia’s campaign to block the formation of Malaysia and, if possible, provoke ‘a prolonged struggle for power leading to civil war or anarchy’ in Indonesia itself. Officials in both countries agreed that the army was reluctant to crush the PKI unless first provoked, so the crucial question was: how do we make such a clash inevitable? Edward Peck, Assistant Secretary of State in the Foreign Office suggested ‘there might be much to be said for encouraging a premature PKI coup during Sukarno’s lifetime’ – provided the coup failed.
Speaking out for the army
US and British concerns became moot once the 30 September Movement, known in Indonesia as G30S, acted. Though they reacted to the events of 1 October with surprise and confusion, western officials, including US Assistant Secretary of State, George Ball, immediately recognised that ‘If the Army does move they have [the] strength to wipe up [the] earth with [the] PKI and if they don’t they may not have another chance.’ The CIA warned that the army might only ‘settle for action against those directly involved in the murder of the generals and permit Sukarno to get much of his power back’. Since no Western intelligence agencies argued that PKI involvement in G30S extended to the rank and file, one can only conclude that their greatest fear was that the army might refrain from mass violence against the party’s unarmed members and supporters.
The US and Britain, joined by Australia, offered their early support for the army by both creating and distributing propaganda, seeking to demonise the PKI and attempting to tie G30S to China. By mid-October, US Secretary of State Dean Rusk cabled Jakarta, noting that the time had come ‘to give some indication to [the] military of our attitudes toward recent and current developments’. He writes further: ‘If [the] army’s willingness to follow through against the PKI is in any way contingent upon or subject to influence by [the] US, we do not wish [to] miss [the] opportunity for US action.’ General Nasution provided an opportunity when his aide approached the US Ambassador to Indonesia, Marshall Green, to request portable communications equipment for use by the Army High Command.
As the first reports of mass killings began arriving at the embassy in Jakarta, US officials began considering further covert assistance to the army in the form of food, raw materials, access to credit and weapons for use against the PKI. At the end of October, White House officials began planning to provide covert aid to the Indonesian military, which, according to the US embassy, was ‘moving relentlessly to exterminate the PKI’. This marked the beginning of a limited but politically significant stream of aid, which included the provision of small arms and cash to army officers.
In the following weeks western embassies in Jakarta fed on a steady diet of gruesome reports about the massacres. At the end of October, reports of mass attacks against PKI supporters in East, Central and West Java reached the US embassy. A military advisor just returned from Bandung reported that villagers were handing over PKI members and those belonging to PKI affiliated organisations to the army for arrest or execution. On 4 November the embassy cabled the US State Department to say that the Army Paracommando Regiment (RPKAD) forces in Central Java under Sarwo Edhie’s command were training and arming Muslim youth to attack the PKI. While army leaders arrested higher level PKI leaders for interrogation, the cable noted that ‘smaller fry’ were ‘being systematically arrested and jailed or executed’. A few days later the US consulate in Medan reported ‘wholesale killings’ of alleged PKI supporters in North Sumatra and Aceh and the ‘specific message’ from the army that it was seeking to ‘finish off’ the PKI.
From propaganda to active assistance
In order to facilitate its covert assistance to the Indonesian army, the US worked with General Sukendro, who had studied at the University of Pittsburgh and was one of the CIA’s highest level military contacts. The US also had a designated liaison in Bangkok, with whom it discussed the army’s requests for communications equipment, small arms and other supplies totalling more than a million US dollars. Sukendro told his US counterparts that the army’s greatest need was for portable voice radios for the general staff in Jakarta; an army voice circuit linking Jakarta with military commands in Sumatra, Java and Sulawesi; and tactical communications equipment for army units operating in Central Java. US officials in Jakarta recommended approval of Sukendro’s request as ‘critical’ in the army’s struggle against Sukarno and the PKI.
On 13 November, police information chief, Colonel Budi Juwono, reported that ‘from 50-100 PKI members are being killed every night in east and central Java by civilian anti-Communist groups with [the] blessing of [the] Army’. Three days later ‘bloodthirsty’ Pemuda Pantjasila members informed the consulate in Medan that the organisation ‘intends to kill every PKI member they can get their hands on’. Other sources told the consulate that ‘much indiscriminate killing is taking place’. Consular officials concluded that, even accounting for exaggerations, a ‘real reign of terror’ was underway. The CIA reported late in November that former PKI members in Central Java were being ‘shot on sight’ by the army, while western missionaries in East Java told the US Consulate in Surabaya that 15,000 communists had reportedly been killed in the East Javanese city of Tulungagung alone.
Consular officials concluded that, even accounting for exaggerations, a ‘real reign of terror’ was underway
British reports largely paralleled those of their American counterparts. In the village of Pasuruan in East Java, a British engineer named Ross Taylor working at Gratit Cotton Spinning Factory described the massacres of workers at the Nebritex textile factory to consular officials. Using lists of known or suspected members of the PKI and the PKI-linked trade union SOBSI, the local army commander placed victims in one of five categories, killing those in the first three and arresting the rest. Ross estimated that 2000 people had been killed in the vicinity of the factory (and at least 200 from the factory itself) since late November, with army units working from the main roads and radiating outwards.
At the height of the massacres the Johnson Administration continued to extend covert assistance directly to the forces carrying out the killings, apparently including small arms delivered to the army through the CIA station in Bangkok. In early December, the State Department approved a covert payment of fifty million rupiah to finance the activities of the Action Front to Crush the 30 September Movement (KAP-Gestapu). Marshall Green noted approvingly that Kap-Gestapu’s activities ‘have been an important factor in the army’s program’, especially in Central Java where it was leading the attack on the PKI. US officials have confirmed that the embassy also turned over lists identifying thousands of PKI leaders and cadres to Indonesian army intermediaries, who used them to track down PKI members for arrest and execution.
US officials, like their counterparts in the army, viewed their campaign to eliminate the PKI leadership and destroy its infrastructure in strategic terms, as ‘a power struggle, not an ideological struggle’ with a rival power centre. The British Consul in Medan framed the contest between the army and the PKI in Sumatra, where both groups were concerned with the control of local ports, rubber estates and tin mines, as one for foreign exchange reserves and access to resources. Not surprisingly, the rubber estates in northern Sumatra were the scene of some of the bloodiest attacks against PKI supporters, with, according to the British consulate in Medan, the army ‘arresting, converting or otherwise disposing of some 3,000 PKI members a week’.
An ominous silence
The western response to the mass killings in Indonesia was enthusiastic – and instructive. Washington continued its assistance long after it was clear that mass killings were taking place and in the expectation that US aid would contribute to this end. Not a single official ever spoke against the slaughter. ‘Our policy was silence’, Deputy US National Security Advisor Walt Rostow later wrote in his correspondence with President Johnson, a good thing, he said, ‘in light of the wholesale killings that have accompanied the transition’ from Sukarno to Suharto. The US was not alone. Thailand offered rice to the Indonesian army on the condition that it destroy both the PKI and Sukarno. Even the Soviets continued to ship weapons throughout the period in an effort to maintain relations with the military and further undermine Chinese influence. New Zealand embassy officials in Jakarta reported in December 1965 that their Soviet counterparts were ‘letting it be known to the Generals that if it comes down to a choice between the PKI or no PKI, the USSR would prefer the latter’.
Indonesia’s international supporters could have pressured it to limit the scope and scale of the violence – had they considered it in their interests to do so. But the US and its allies viewed the wholesale annihilation of the PKI and its civilian backers as an indispensable prerequisite to Indonesia’s reintegration into the regional political economy, the ascendance of a modernising military regime and the crippling or overthrow of Sukarno. Indeed, Washington did everything in its power to encourage and facilitate the army-led massacre of alleged PKI members and US officials worried only that the killing of the party’s unarmed supporters might not go far enough, permitting Sukarno to return to power and frustrate the Administration’s emerging plans for a post-Sukarno Indonesia. This was, in short, efficacious terror, an essential building block of the quasi neo-liberal policies the West would attempt to impose on Indonesia in the years to come.
Brad Simpson (bsimpson@princeton.edu) is Assistant Professor of History and International Affairs at Princeton University and the author of Economists with Guns: Authoritarian Development and U.S. – Indonesian Relations, 1960-1968 (Stanford, 2008).
Brad is also director of the Indonesia and East Timor Documentation Project at the National Security Archive (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/indonesia/index.html), which is working to declassify US documents on Indonesia from the Suharto era to the present.
Angemon says
The taqiyya spreading Mazo posted
“It wasnt just the American embassy, American consulates in places as remote as Sumatra worked to supply Indonesian murderers with names”
If that’s the case then you should have more than one source providing the number for the statement you claimed – that America asked Suharto to kill 600,000 suspects of being communists. Thing is, you gave none so far.
“Historian Brad Simpson has this to say about America and the western role in the “genocide”, since I’m going by your standards now,”
Actually, if you were going by my standards you’d give a source that flat out says what you claimed – that America asked Suharto to kill 600,000 suspects of being communist. See, when i said what happened in East Timor was a genocide i provided sources who said so. BTW, thank you for your assistance in there. You gave me a source that said that if what happened in East Timor wasn’t genocide then the Genocide Convention needed a reform. Sure, you thought it was saying it wasn’t genocide, but still, you strengthened my point, and i thank you for that.
Now, regarding my question. Mazo, do you condemn the Indonesian invasion of East Timor and the genocide and atrocities committed by the Indonesians against the East Timorese people? Yes or no? Because i get the feeling that you’re copy/pasting walls of text unrelated to any of the points you’re making to weasel your way out of answering my question. Don’t worry, i haven’t forgot about it 😉
Angemon says
The desperate Mazo posted:
“http://www.filmcomment.com/entry/interview-joshua-oppenheimer-the-act-of-killing
http://www.indiewire.com/article/futures-joshua-oppenheimer-the-director-of-the-years-most-disturbing-and-controversial-doc-explains-why-he-needed-to-work-with-the-heads-of-indonesian-death-squads-to-re-enact-mass-murders
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/07/the-weird-genius-of-the-act-of-killing.html”
I see your indiewire article and raise with a insideindonesia.org review.
http://www.insideindonesia.org/weekly-articles/review-an-act-of-manipulation
“The pleasure that Congo and his friends take in the memory of cruelty makes The Act of Killing a difficult film to watch. Not surprisingly, audiences have viewed it as a courageous revelation of the darkest secrets in Indonesia’s recent past. Yet the film’s depiction of the terrible months from October 1965 to March 1966 is deeply misleading.Although the opening text tells viewers that the killings were carried out under the auspices of the Indonesian army, the military is invisible in the film’s subsequent representation of the massacres.”
Notice how the movie contradicts Mazo’s claims so far:
“The killings are presented as the work of civilian criminal psychopaths, not as a campaign of extermination, authorised and encouraged by the rising Suharto group within the Indonesian army and supported by broader social forces frightened by the possibility that the Indonesian communist party might come to power. At a time when a growing body of detailed research on the killings has made clear that the army played a pivotal role in the massacres, The Act of Killing puts back on the agenda the Orientalist notion that Indonesians slaughtered each other with casual self-indulgence because they did not value human life.”
Mazo said over and over that America and Suharto was the ones responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people for fearing they were communists and to prove it he quotes reviews from a film that presents the killings as the work of civilian criminal psychopaths and not as a campaign of extermination, authorized and encouraged by the rising Suharto group within the Indonesian army and supported by broader social forces frightened by the possibility that the Indonesian communist party might come to power. So, to prove one thing he quotes from a film (which is a mean of entertainment) that says the exact opposite of what he claims. Stay classy!
More from the review:
“The film makes no attempt to evaluate the truth of Congo’s confessions. Despite persistent indications that he is mentally disturbed, and that he and his friends are boasting for the sake of creating shock, the film presents their claims without critique. There is no reason to doubt that Congo and his friends took part in the violence of 1965-66, and that the experience left deep mental scars, but did they kill as many as they claim? At times they sound like a group of teenage boys trying to outbid each other in tales of bravado.
There is no voice-over in the film. The protagonists seem to speak unprompted and undirected. Towards its end, however, the film portrays an incident which, to my mind, casts doubt on its apparent claim to present an unmediated portrait of the aged killer. Returning to the rooftop scene of the murders, Congo seems to experience remorse. Twice, he vomits discreetly into a convenient trough on the edge of the rooftop, before walking slowly and sadly downstairs. By this time in the film, Oppenheimer has made clear that Congo regarded him as a friend. Did Oppenheimer really just keep the cameras running and maintain his distance while his friend was in distress? Did Congo really think nothing of vomiting in front of the camera, under studio lights, and walking away as if the camera were not there? The incident seems staged.”
No comments, but here’s another excerpt:
“The sense of manipulation is all the stronger in those scenes that present the second story.
And a bit more:
“Whatever might be criticised in the rest of the film, anyone interested in modern Indonesia will want to watch the scenes in which Safit Pardede prowls through the Medan market collecting cash from his small-trader victims. Manipulative and misleading The Act of Killing may be; it is nonetheless an extraordinarily powerful film which we should not ignore.”
Tell us Mazo, what was your objective? What did you hoped to achieve by trying to pass a dubious, manipulative and misleading movie as if it were an impartial documentary? Are you that desperate to avoid answering m question?
Mazo says
I can’t help but burst out laughing as Angemon is quoting a pro-Indonesian site in order to “debunk” my posts, including the one by a PH.D historian, Brad Simpson.
http://history.uconn.edu/people/simpson.php
Even Voice of America, America’s premeir propaganda outlet, reported on this.
http://www.voanews.com/content/lien-hoang-communist-still-dirty-word-in-indonesia/1838804.html
And this guy has the nerve to ask me to condemn what Indonesia does , when I dont even support Indonesia.
Fyi this is the pro-Indonesia website he linked.
http://www.insideindonesia.org/weekly-articles/review-an-act-of-manipulation
Angemon says
The desperate Mazo posted:
“I can’t help but burst out laughing as Angemon is quoting a pro-Indonesian site in order to “debunk” my posts, including the one by a PH.D historian, Brad Simpson.
http://history.uconn.edu/people/simpson.php
Even Voice of America, America’s premeir propaganda outlet, reported on this.
http://www.voanews.com/content/lien-hoang-communist-still-dirty-word-in-indonesia/1838804.html
And this guy has the nerve to ask me to condemn what Indonesia does , when I dont even support Indonesia.
Fyi this is the pro-Indonesia website he linked.
http://www.insideindonesia.org/weekly-articles/review-an-act-of-manipulation”
Mazo, i think you need to take a break and look at your own posts. The first person to mention http://www.insideindonesia.org was YOU:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044254
“Mazo
April 28, 2014 at 6:13 pm
Historian Brad Simpson has this to say about America and the western role in the “genocide”, since I’m going by your standards now,
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3255genocide.htm
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3200genocide.htm
http://www.insideindonesia.org/feature-editions/accomplices-in-atrocity
I can’t help but burst out laughing as Mazo quotes from a site but when i quote from that same site he claims it’s a pro-Indonesian website.
Tell me Mazo, why are you, a self appointed not-pro Indonesian, linking to a site you claim to be pro-Indonesian?
There you have it folks – more double standards from Mazo. When he links to http://www.insideindonesia.org he’s reporting about what “Historian Brad Simpson has […] to say about America and the western role in the “genocide””“. But when i quote from the very same website he links to, then it suddenly becomes a untrustworthy pro-Indonesia website. My friends, while trying to produce more smoke and mirros to avoid condemning Indonesia for the genocide committed against the East Timorese people Mazo shot himself in the foot – again.
To sum it up: Mazo linking to a website – OK. Me linking to the same website Mazo linked to earlier – it’s a pro-indonesia website and therefore untrustworthy. And he does all this to avoid condemning Indonesia for the genocide of the East Timorese people. What an execrable excuse for a human being Mazo is turning out to be.
Angemon says
I’m sorry, but i can’t stop LMFAO at the nuclear missile Mazo shoot his feet with:
“Mazo
April 28, 2014 at 6:13 pm
Historian Brad Simpson has this to say about America and the western role in the “genocide”, since I’m going by your standards now,
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3255genocide.htm
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3200genocide.htm
http://www.insideindonesia.org/feature-editions/accomplices-in-atrocity”
“Mazo
April 28, 2014 at 8:16 pm
I can’t help but burst out laughing as Angemon is quoting a pro-Indonesian site in order to “debunk” my posts, including the one by a PH.D historian, Brad Simpson.
[…]
And this guy has the nerve to ask me to condemn what Indonesia does , when I dont even support Indonesia.
Fyi this is the pro-Indonesia website he linked.
http://www.insideindonesia.org/weekly-articles/review-an-act-of-manipulation”
When Mazo brings up http://www.insideindonesia.org it’s a reputable website. But when i bring it up the it’s a “pro-Indonesia website” and he “help but burst out laughing” .
“And this guy has the nerve to ask me to condemn what Indonesia does , when I dont even support Indonesia.”
No, you just quote from pro-indonesia websites and you just blame christians for what happened on East Timor while exonerating Indonesia of any responsibilities whatsoever. Also notice, he’s the one who brought up the pro-indonesian issue, not me. Finally, we know why you won’t condemn what Indonesia did. Going by your own words, it’s because you believe that the fault of what Indonesia did truly lies in America and Australia.
Angemon says
The bipolar Mazo posted
“including the one by a PH.D historian, Brad Simpson.
Notice how nowhere the Historian with a PH.D Brad Simpson mentions that America had Suharto kill 600,000 communists, not even on the pro-Indonesian website Mazo linked to.
What Mazo did was a perfect example of a failed attempt at a logical fallacy known as “Argument from authority”. Why was it a failed attempt? Because nowhere on Mazo’s sources the “PH.D historian, Brad Simpson” supports the claim made by Mazo – that America had Suharto kill 600,000 people suspected of being communists.
And i’m sorry, but i’m still LMFAO at Mazo’s 180º spin. He quotes from a site and it’s all fine and dandy. I quote from the same site he’s quoting and then suddenly it becomes an untrustworthy pro-Indonesia website! Which begs the question, if the “PH.D historian, Brad Simpson” was mentioned there should we trust him? Because you’ve seen Mazo’s hissy fit at the mere mention of that website (by me, at least, he had no issues when he quoted from it). Of course, there’s always the hypothesis i mentioned earlier: knee-jerk reaction and saying whatever you need to say to defend your current argument and whatever that means for your past and future arguments be damned. But Mazo is not a immature kid, is he? He wouldn’t react to criticism as some sort of angry toddler, would he? I mean, given his track record…oh, wait…
In any case, did you hear that whooooshing sound? It was Mazo, backpedaling.
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Mazo says
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/indonesia/index.html
Report: U.S. Arms Helped Indonesia Attack East Timor
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401688.html
East Timor Truth Commission report uses declassified U.S. documents to reveal support for Indonesian invasion and occupation of East Timor from 1975 until U.N. sponsored vote in 1999
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/press.htm
East Timor truth commission finds U.S. “political and military support were fundamental to the Indonesian invasion and occupation”
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB176/index.htm
US sacrificed Papua to court Suharto
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/FG13Ae03.html
Is Angemon going to respond to the article or not? Why did he selectively only respond to arricles about the filmakers, but not articles detailing America’s enginerring of the genocide? America actively plotted the destruction of the PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) engineering Sukarno’s downfall and Suharto’s rise to power.
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3255genocide.htm
Recalling the mass killings in Indonesia following the 30 September 1965 movement, Howard Federspiel, the US State Department’s intelligence staffer for Indonesia, observed that ‘No one cared as long as they were Communists, that they were being butchered.’ Indeed, it is hard to find any western governments that expressed concern about what the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) called one of the great mass murders of modern history. Far from it. Western governments, led by the United States, actively sought to create conditions that would lead to a violent clash between the army and the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) and, once the mass killings began, offered quiet but enthusiastic support to the Indonesian army. The killings of 1965 and 1966 were, in other words, international events of global significance, as the governments that supported the army in carrying out the killings recognised.
Encouraging a violent clash
For nearly a decade preceding the events of 30 September 1965 the US feared the growing radicalism and anti-westernism of President Sukarno and the increasing political power of the PKI. These twin fears led the Eisenhower Administration into a massive and disastrous covert operation in support of the regional rebellions of 1957-1958, events that led directly to Sukarno’s abandonment of parliamentary democracy and the implementation of the authoritarian system known as Guided Democracy. Eisenhower’s successors, John F Kennedy and Lyndon B Johnson, each used programs of economic, technical and military assistance to encourage a greater role for the Indonesian armed forces in Indonesia’s economic and political life as a means of blunting or reversing the influence of the PKI.
In August 1964, as relations between the US and Indonesia deteriorated rapidly, in part due to Sukarno’s confrontation with Britain over the formation of Malaysia, the US went further, adopting a covert strategy aimed at sparking a violent conflict between the military and the PKI. In doing so the US joined Britain, which had adopted a covert warfare approach in 1963, attempting to frustrate Indonesia’s campaign to block the formation of Malaysia and, if possible, provoke ‘a prolonged struggle for power leading to civil war or anarchy’ in Indonesia itself. Officials in both countries agreed that the army was reluctant to crush the PKI unless first provoked, so the crucial question was: how do we make such a clash inevitable? Edward Peck, Assistant Secretary of State in the Foreign Office suggested ‘there might be much to be said for encouraging a premature PKI coup during Sukarno’s lifetime’ – provided the coup failed.
More on American assistance during the genocide.
On 13 November, police information chief, Colonel Budi Juwono, reported that ‘from 50-100 PKI members are being killed every night in east and central Java by civilian anti-Communist groups with [the] blessing of [the] Army’. Three days later ‘bloodthirsty’ Pemuda Pantjasila members informed the consulate in Medan that the organisation ‘intends to kill every PKI member they can get their hands on’. Other sources told the consulate that ‘much indiscriminate killing is taking place’. Consular officials concluded that, even accounting for exaggerations, a ‘real reign of terror’ was underway. The CIA reported late in November that former PKI members in Central Java were being ‘shot on sight’ by the army, while western missionaries in East Java told the US Consulate in Surabaya that 15,000 communists had reportedly been killed in the East Javanese city of Tulungagung alone.
Consular officials concluded that, even accounting for exaggerations, a ‘real reign of terror’ was underway
British reports largely paralleled those of their American counterparts. In the village of Pasuruan in East Java, a British engineer named Ross Taylor working at Gratit Cotton Spinning Factory described the massacres of workers at the Nebritex textile factory to consular officials. Using lists of known or suspected members of the PKI and the PKI-linked trade union SOBSI, the local army commander placed victims in one of five categories, killing those in the first three and arresting the rest. Ross estimated that 2000 people had been killed in the vicinity of the factory (and at least 200 from the factory itself) since late November, with army units working from the main roads and radiating outwards.
At the height of the massacres the Johnson Administration continued to extend covert assistance directly to the forces carrying out the killings, apparently including small arms delivered to the army through the CIA station in Bangkok. In early December, the State Department approved a covert payment of fifty million rupiah to finance the activities of the Action Front to Crush the 30 September Movement (KAP-Gestapu). Marshall Green noted approvingly that Kap-Gestapu’s activities ‘have been an important factor in the army’s program’, especially in Central Java where it was leading the attack on the PKI. US officials have confirmed that the embassy also turned over lists identifying thousands of PKI leaders and cadres to Indonesian army intermediaries, who used them to track down PKI members for arrest and execution.
US officials, like their counterparts in the army, viewed their campaign to eliminate the PKI leadership and destroy its infrastructure in strategic terms, as ‘a power struggle, not an ideological struggle’ with a rival power centre. The British Consul in Medan framed the contest between the army and the PKI in Sumatra, where both groups were concerned with the control of local ports, rubber estates and tin mines, as one for foreign exchange reserves and access to resources. Not surprisingly, the rubber estates in northern Sumatra were the scene of some of the bloodiest attacks against PKI supporters, with, according to the British consulate in Medan, the army ‘arresting, converting or otherwise disposing of some 3,000 PKI members a week’.
An ominous silence
The western response to the mass killings in Indonesia was enthusiastic – and instructive. Washington continued its assistance long after it was clear that mass killings were taking place and in the expectation that US aid would contribute to this end. Not a single official ever spoke against the slaughter. ‘Our policy was silence’, Deputy US National Security Advisor Walt Rostow later wrote in his correspondence with President Johnson, a good thing, he said, ‘in light of the wholesale killings that have accompanied the transition’ from Sukarno to Suharto. The US was not alone. Thailand offered rice to the Indonesian army on the condition that it destroy both the PKI and Sukarno. Even the Soviets continued to ship weapons throughout the period in an effort to maintain relations with the military and further undermine Chinese influence. New Zealand embassy officials in Jakarta reported in December 1965 that their Soviet counterparts were ‘letting it be known to the Generals that if it comes down to a choice between the PKI or no PKI, the USSR would prefer the latter’.
Indonesia’s international supporters could have pressured it to limit the scope and scale of the violence – had they considered it in their interests to do so. But the US and its allies viewed the wholesale annihilation of the PKI and its civilian backers as an indispensable prerequisite to Indonesia’s reintegration into the regional political economy, the ascendance of a modernising military regime and the crippling or overthrow of Sukarno. Indeed, Washington did everything in its power to encourage and facilitate the army-led massacre of alleged PKI members and US officials worried only that the killing of the party’s unarmed supporters might not go far enough, permitting Sukarno to return to power and frustrate the Administration’s emerging plans for a post-Sukarno Indonesia. This was, in short, efficacious terror, an essential building block of the quasi neo-liberal policies the West would attempt to impose on Indonesia in the years to come.
Brad Simpson (bsimpson@princeton.edu) is Assistant Professor of History and International Affairs at Princeton University and the author of Economists with Guns: Authoritarian Development and U.S. – Indonesian Relations, 1960-1968 (Stanford, 2008).
More
Direct US complicity in the mass murders was actually already known from “cable traffic between the US Embassy in Jakarta and the State Department” (“Year 501”, pp123 & 132; & “Confronting the Third World”, pp177/83). For instance, Secretary of State Dean Rusk had instructed Ambassador Green on October 29 1965, that the “campaign against PKI” must continue and would receive US military aid to do so (“Confronting the Third World”, p181). US cable exchanges showed a high level of concern about whether or not the army would have the resolve to carry out the genocide. On October 14 1965 Green had cabled Washington that: “Their success or failure is going to determine our own in Indonesia for some time to come” (ibid, p180). Later, on November 4, 1965, Green told Rusk that Embassy staff had made it clear that the Embassy and the US government were “generally sympathetic with and admiring of what Army doing”; and a few days later reported that the Army was acting “ruthlessly” carrying out “wholesale killings” (ibid, p181). Green ensured “carefully placed assistance which will help Army cope with PKI”, to facilitate what the CIA called the “destruction” of the Party (ibid.). It needs to be noted that relevant US documents for the three months preceding September 30 1965 have been withheld from public scrutiny. As Kolko observes, given all the other material available, “one can only assume that the release of these papers would embarrass the US government” (ibid, p177). As Kolko suggests, too, the Suharto takeover could have already been planned for such an opportune moment.
More
The British connections to all this have emerged in a variety of ways. Most damning have been the revelations from official documents. Whereas the Foreign Office has regularly denied that Britain was involved in the fall of Sukarno, new revelations in the mid/late 1990s showed that British Intelligence agencies and propaganda specialists carried out covert operations to overthrow the regime. Mark Curtis, author of “The Ambiguities of Power: British Foreign Policy since 1945” (Zed Books, 1995), had an excoriating editorial in 1996 in The Ecologist (Vol.26, no.5, September/October, 1996, pp202/04). Titled “Democratic Genocide”, it presented his findings “from recently declassified secret Government files”. Quotes immediately below in the next three paragraphs are from his editorial unless otherwise indicated.
Curtis states that: “The secret files reveal three crucial aspects of the British role”. The first was its intention to get rid of Sukarno. “According to a CIA memorandum of June 1962, Prime Minister Harold Macmillan and President John Kennedy ‘agreed to liquidate President Sukarno, depending on the situation and the available opportunities’. In the late 1950s, Britain had aided covert attempts to organise a guerrilla army to overthrow Sukarno”. By 1965, the British Ambassador to Indonesia, Sir Andrew Gilchrist, was telling the Foreign Office that: “I have never concealed from you my belief that a little shooting in Indonesia would be an essential preliminary to effective change” (see also “The New Rulers of the World”). Gilchrist went on in October 1965, after the Gestapu affair, to strongly press the generals to take ruthless action against the Communists. Meantime, the US Embassy had declared: “Now is the ideal time in some ways for the Army to be committed to a struggle to the death with the PKI”.
Angemon says
The desperate Mazo posted:
“Is Angemon going to respond to the article or not? Why did he selectively only respond to arricles about the filmakers, but not articles detailing America’s enginerring of the genocide?”
Ha! More lies from Mazo! What a shocker! Mazo is claiming i’m not responding to some of his articles when i did respond. I said that none of the articles he quoted backed the claim he made, which was:
“How about when America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”?”
Mazo’s links failed to provide evidence to all aspects of his claim. Not only that, they actually provided evidence AGAINST what he claimed, as i pointed out:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044229
Notice my opening words:
“Angemon
April 28, 2014 at 5:53 pm
Quoting from your link:”
It’s kinda hard to say i’m not responding to his links when the first thing i do is to quote from them. Then again, Mazo showed he has no problems lying whenever the going gets tough for him, so…
Also, Mazo seems to have a problem with recognizing reliable sources. Remember, he had no issues quoting from a website, but when i quoted from the very same site then it became a unreliable pro-indonesia source.
We have yet to see him provide evidence to back any of his claims, but he have seen him refusing to condemn the genocide committed by the Indonesian against the East Timorese, blaming everything on America and Australia, supporting full implementation of sharia law, denying there ever was a genocide on East Timor, backing said denial with articles that said that there was a genocide on East Timor, presenting a work of entertainment as being an historically accurate work, engaging in personal attacks against me and several other users, quoting from a website but trying to demonize that site as being pro-indonesian when i quote from it… The list goes on and on.
Really, his “oh, why won’t Angemon comment on my articles” when i did is nothing more than a ruse, an excuse so he can keep copy/pasting the same walls of text while trying to make people forget that he has yet to provide evidence to back any of his claims. And i won’t be surprised if in future discussions he says something like “oh, Angemon refuses to debate people” and link to his post where he claims i didn’t answer him.
His claim also reeks of pure hypocrisy because he’s the one who on several occasions failed to comment on articles i quoted. For example, when i quoted articles to support my claim of genocide in East Timor:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044042
“http://www.gendercide.org/case_timor.html
“Who was responsible?
The major share of responsibility for the genocide in East Timor since 1975 rests with the Indonesian military
http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/03-263_Ch_09.pdf
“The two genocides [Cambodia and East Timor]that began in 1975 were also each in turn followed by extended foreign occupation and, finally, by United Nations intervention.”
[…]
“But the crimes committed a decade later in East Timor, with a toll of 150,000 in a population of 650,000, clearly meet a range of sociological definitions of genocide used by most scholars of the phenomenon, who see both political and ethnic groups as possible victims of genocide”
“The Genocide
Indonesian massacres of Timorese began on the first day of the December 1975 landing. Dunn calls the assault on Dili “one of the most brutal operations of its kind in modern warfare.”
[…]
“On November 12, 1979, Indonesia’s new foreign minister, Mochtar Kusumaatmadja, estimated that 120,000 Timorese had died since 1975.
The pressures of full-scale invasion and ongoing genocide initially brought to the fore Fretilin’s harshest and most radical elements, who began to predominate in the resistance.”
[…]
“But he [Xanana] also lamented that “humanity had closed its eyes to the extermination of the Maubere people, a genocide carried out by the assassinating forces of the Indonesian occupation”
[…]
“How did resistance continue and function under conditions of Indonesian imposed famine and genocide?”
[…]
“Jakarta was unable to achieve its goal of conquest. But what underlying ideology justified genocide in the attempt?”
“Conclusion
Cambodia and East Timor were both subjected to genocide in 1975–79.””
Mazo’s response to that:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044217
“Mazo
April 28, 2014 at 5:50 pm
Then America tried to commit genocide against the Vietcong since they were a political group? Are you out of your mind?”
Notice that he starts by bringing up an unrelated issue (Vietnam), then goes on without ever commenting on the articles i used to back my point and finally quotes from an article without realizing that it actually says the exact opposite of what he claims. Like i said here:
“http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044250”
“Mazo, it’s you who need to learn how to read, Look at what’s written there; is says that if what happened in East Timor does not amounting to genocide then it raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.”
No, the only person who refuses to comment articles is Mazo. In fact, when faced with something he doesn’t like, he simply changes the issue. We started with Indonesia’s actions in East Timor but the mendacious grievance mongering taqqyia spreader Mazo tried to avoid answering my question by lying, changing the subject to unrelated themes and making wild claims to which he lacks evidence. He already showed himself to be a liar, a hypocrite, a religious intolerant biggot who thinks that those who insult islam should be punished, a staunch defender of Indonesia (going as far as to exonerate Indonesia and place all the blame for the murdering of hundreds of thousands of East Timorese on America and Australia), and a coward who runs away at the smallest hint of honest discussion.
But someone has to be the bigger man, so i’m going to give him another chance to make up for the piss-poor image of himself he’s leaving us with. Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide committed by Indonesia against the East Timorese people? Yes or No buddy. One word and you can still aspire to save face. Or doom yourself even further. Your call.
Angemon says
You know, giving Mazo’s overall behavior on this topic, i’m going to wholeheartedly with what someone else said on another occasion:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/fatah-central-committee-member-none-of-us-especially-in-fatah-has-ruled-out-the-military-options/comment-page-1#comment-1021051
“I did just exactly this last week with commenter “Mazo” and “Semeru”. It came up 90%. Many, many phrases were verbatim between the two. Then, the other day, I put “Mazo” and an old, banned poster named “Horse” into the hydrofibulatorgrammarthingy. 99%; with many, many exact phrases, vocabulary and syntax structures.
Anyway – again, a very good point and one that should be heeded by all the rest of us JWatchers. I wouldn’t doubt for one second that “one” and/or “all” of these clowns sit in a room together and take turns at going at us.
Who knows? Maybe they “take turns” at something else, too – if you catch my drift.”
😉
Mazo says
Again Angemon does not respond when I pointed to an actual ARTICLE on America and the West’s engineering of the mass slaughters of “Communists” in Indonesia, and the West’s installation of the dictator Suharto.
Again with my Hitler analogy earlier- America and the west were like Hitler, giving orders to its Indonesian proxies, Suharto and the Indonesian military, who are like the Waffen SS and German Wehrmacht. America engineered the mass killings and put Suharto in power, and America and Australia supported Indonesia’s mass slaughters and rapes in East Timor.
Suharto is more comparable to a Himmler, who receives orders from his American master (Hitler).
Just like in Japan where Emperor Hirohito (also a war criminal who has for more power than actually portrayed) got off scot free and all the blame was placed on Hideki Tojo for Japan’s war crimes, here Angemon tries to portray America as innocent like Hirohito.
http://www.indonesia-digest.net/3255genocide.htm
Recalling the mass killings in Indonesia following the 30 September 1965 movement, Howard Federspiel, the US State Department’s intelligence staffer for Indonesia, observed that ‘No one cared as long as they were Communists, that they were being butchered.’ Indeed, it is hard to find any western governments that expressed concern about what the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) called one of the great mass murders of modern history. Far from it. Western governments, led by the United States, actively sought to create conditions that would lead to a violent clash between the army and the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) and, once the mass killings began, offered quiet but enthusiastic support to the Indonesian army. The killings of 1965 and 1966 were, in other words, international events of global significance, as the governments that supported the army in carrying out the killings recognised.”
STATE HISTORIANS CONCLUDE U.S. PASSED NAMES OF COMMUNISTS TO INDONESIAN ARMY, WHICH KILLED AT LEAST 105,000 IN 1965-66
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB52/
America handed over West Papua to Indonesia on a silver platter, and actively supported the Indonesian invasion of East Timor along with Australia.
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/indonesia/index.html
We are using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to compel U.S. government agencies such as the State Department, Defense Department, Central Intelligence Agency and Defense Intelligence Agency to review and release documents on U.S. policy toward Indonesia and East Timor between 1965-1999 in three “project areas:”
1. U.S. – Indonesian military relations (1965-1999)
2. Human rights abuses during the Suharto era (1965-1998)
3. The Indonesian invasion and occupation of East Timor (1974-1999)
In addition, we are conducting research at the U.S. National Archives and Presidential Libraries to gather recently released documents and seek declassification of still secret materials.
During 2003-2004, we are working with East Timor’s Commission for Truth, Reception and Reconciliation (CAVR) to gather U.S. documents concerning human rights abuses committed during Indonesia’s invasion and occupation of East Timor from 1975 through 1999, as well as documents concerning U.S. policy during this period. The CAVR incorporated these materials into its final report, released in January 2006.
Indonesia / East Timor Documentation Project in the News
“US propped up Suharto ‘despite rights abuses'”
by P. Parameswaran, Agence France Press
Jakarta Post (PDF)
January 29, 2008
“US propped up Suharto despite rights abuses: documents”
by P. Parameswaran
Agence France Press
January 29, 2008
“Released papers implicate Suharto”
By Stephen Fitzpatrick
The Australian
February 1, 2008
“Longtime Indonesian Strongman Suharto Dies at 86”
National Public Radio
January 27, 2008
“Observer: Out in the open”
Comment & Analysis
Financial Times
January 30, 2008
“Report: U.S. Arms Helped Indonesia Attack East Timor”
Washington Post
January 25, 2006
“New documents expose US backing for Indonesian invasion of East Timor”
Agence France-Presse
December 2, 2005
“Thirty Years After the Indonesian Invasion of East Timor, Will the U.S. Be Held Accountable for its Role in the Slaughter?”
Democracy Now!
December 7, 2005
“Files show complicity on Timor”
By Donald Greenlees
International Herald Tribune
December 1, 2005
“Documents show Britain covered up murders of 5 journalists in RI’s 1975 invasion of E. Timor”
Associated Press
December 1, 2005
“Government lied to cover up war crimes in 1975 invasion of island”
The Times (UK)
November 30, 2005
“Declassified U.S. Papers Spark Indonesian Rebuke”
Washington Post
July 18, 2004
“US ‘concern’ over West Papua”
The Australian
July 14, 2004
“U.S. Sacrificed Papua to aid Suharto”
Asia Times Online
July 14, 2004
“U.S. backed sham referendum in Indonesia’s Papua province, documents show”
Associated Press
Saturday July 10, 2004, 1:02 PM
Mazo says
More
Indonesia’s 1969 Takeover of West Papua Not by “Free Choice”
Document Release Marks 35th Anniversary
of Controversial Vote and Annexation
Secret Files Show U.S. Support for Indonesia,
Human Rights Abuses by Indonesian Military
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB128/index.htm
US sacrificed Papua to court Suharto
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/FG13Ae03.html
America= Hitler
Suharto= Himmler
General Moerdani = Hermann Göring
General Syafei = Joseph Goebbels/Julius Streicher/Ernst Kaltenbrunner
America gave orders to their lackey Suharto, while his top Generals worked to suppress all voices of dissent, crushing Islamism, insulting the Quran and Islamic religion (like Goebbels insulting the Jews), and committing mass atrocities against East Timorese, Papuans, Communists, Acehnese Islamists, and Chinese.
Mazo says
http://www.cja.org/article.php?list=type&type=198
To the United States, which had recently withdrawn from South Vietnam, Fretilin’s success seemed to confirm the worst fears of a Communist “domino effect” sweeping South-East Asia. To Indonesian nationalists, including the virulently anti-Communist President Suharto, the decolonization of East Timor presented a chance to both annex East Timor and liquidate a perceived Communist threat. Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was unequivocal in his support for the Suharto regime. On December 6, 1975, he and US President Ford met with Suharto in Jakarta just days before the invasion. According to recently declassified memos, Ford and Kissinger agreed to establish small-arms factories in Indonesia.
The following day, on December 7, 1975, Indonesia launched Operation Komodo, the general invasion of East Timor. Notified days later, Kissinger’s primary concern was how to spin the fact that American weaponry would likely be used in an illegal act of aggression: “The use of US-made arms could create problems.” But he added, “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation…it is important that
http://fundasaunmahein.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/publication_file_fr_287.pdf
Beijing assembled equipment sufficient to arm a light infantry division of 8,000 men, including medium anti-aircraft machine guns, light artillery, mortars and infantry anti-tank weapons. However, the Indonesian naval blockade with assistance from the Australian navy prevented the delivery of the equipment to the Timorese.5
Angemon says
The utterly defeated Mazo posted:
“Again Angemon does not respond when I pointed to an actual ARTICLE on America and the West’s engineering of the mass slaughters of “Communists” in Indonesia, and the West’s installation of the dictator Suharto.”
Awwww, what is it little one? Your creativity finally ran dry and you have to resort to rehash your material? Maybe it’s time you take a break since you’re having a hard time telling what’s real and what’s your imagination 😉
Here’s the claims you made: Indonesia never committed any genocide in East Timor, America and Australia are responsible for what Indonesia did in East Timor and America had Suharto kill 600,000 communists. Now, i gave you articles showing that not only what happened in East Timor was a genocide (and you even linked to an article stating that, lol), i also gave you ample evidence of who was responsibile for what happened in East Timor:
http://www.gendercide.org/case_timor.html
“Who was responsible?
The major share of responsibility for the genocide in East Timor since 1975 rests with the Indonesian military, which has long been the dominant force in national politics and, over the long years of occupation, amassed a wide range of lucrative economic interests in East Timor.”
Remember when you failed to respond on an actual ARTICLE made by an independent 3rd party who places the responsibility on the Indonesian military?
So, not only you failed to respond to what i posted, you also claim i did not respond to what you posted when in fact i responded. Remember when i told you that what you posted in no way backed your claims? Yes, that was a response. You have yet to provide any evidence exonerating Indonesia (you know, the boots on the ground doing all the killing) for what happened in East Timor, or any evidence to prove your claim that the USA asked Suharto to kill 600,000 people. See, in the real world things go like this: you make an asinine claim, you have to prove what you say. If you bring up something that does not back your claim (and you even brought up articles that contradicted your claims) them the answer you get is “why are you bringing that up? It’s totally irrelevant”. You may not like it but you don’t get another response by repeating the same irrelevant crap over and over again. Like i said before:
here’s a nice quote credited to Albert Einstein:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
“Again with my Hitler analogy earlier- America and the west were like Hitler, giving orders to its Indonesian proxies, Suharto and the Indonesian military, who are like the Waffen SS and German Wehrmacht. America engineered the mass killings and put Suharto in power, and America and Australia supported Indonesia’s mass slaughters and rapes in East Timor.”
I’ve debunked your Hitler comparison before. Like i said before, not only repeating the same debunked crap will get you a different response, you have yet to provide evidence that America ordered Suharto to kill 600,000 people. We get it, you hate America, but that doesn’t give you the right to make bald faced lies.
“Just like in Japan where Emperor Hirohito (also a war criminal who has for more power than actually portrayed) got off scot free and all the blame was placed on Hideki Tojo for Japan’s war crimes, here Angemon tries to portray America as innocent like Hirohito.”
LOL! You’re the one bringing Japan into this (once again, trying to dodge from discussing your asinine claims), not me! If anyone is trying to make someone or some country look innocent is you with Indonesia:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1043905
“America and Australia approved of and supported Indonesia’s invasion and massacres of East Timorese.
I have no qualms at all for blaming who is truly at fault”
Remember that, kid? Now, here’s what a 3rd party watcher had to say:
http://www.gendercide.org/case_timor.html
“Who was responsible?
The major share of responsibility for the genocide in East Timor since 1975 rests with the Indonesian military, which has long been the dominant force in national politics and, over the long years of occupation, amassed a wide range of lucrative economic interests in East Timor.”
So far, you gave no evidence that the atrocities in East Timor were committed by someone else other than the Indonesian military.
“STATE HISTORIANS CONCLUDE U.S. PASSED NAMES OF COMMUNISTS TO INDONESIAN ARMY, WHICH KILLED AT LEAST 105,000 IN 1965-66”
OK, now this requires a closer examination. Mazo claimed that the US asked Suharto to kill 600,000 suspects of being communists:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1043964
“How about when America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”?”
When asked by voegelinian to back his claim, Mazo replied:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044196
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965–66#Foreign_involvement_and_reaction”
Leading me to point the following:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044229
“Alex Bellamy concurs, noting the Indonesian army used a list containing some 5,000 names of suspected PKI members, which was provided to them by the U.S. embassy in Jakarta, to identify some victims.”
Not only there’s a 595,000 difference between the number of suspected PKI members given by the US embassy and the number you claimed (which was 120 times larger), there’s also the matter that nowhere in there says that the America asked to have 600,000 suspected communists killed. In fact, it flat out says that “there is no evidence that the United States significantly increased the scale of the killings””
Now, Mazo provides another number, 105,000. That’s 100,000 more than the number on the first link he provided when asked about it, 495,000 less than the number he came up with and there’s still no evidence that America gave Suharto a list and said “go kill these people”. Mazo is simply posting as much content as he can, hoping we take his word for what’s actually in. But, like i told him before, does he really thinks i wouldn’t check his links given his track record here? He lies, lies, and lies more. Once again, what he posts provides no evidence to back any of his claims. But at least this time it didn’t outright belied him 😀
“America gave orders to their lackey Suharto, while his top Generals worked to suppress all voices of dissent, crushing Islamism, insulting the Quran and Islamic religion (like Goebbels insulting the Jews), and committing mass atrocities against East Timorese, Papuans, Communists, Acehnese Islamists, and Chinese.”
Ah, notice the subtle change in tune! Mazo went from “America asked Suharto to kill 600,000 people” to “America gave orders to Suharto while his generals crushed islamism and insulted islam”. Here, it’s implied that what the Indonesian army did was independent to whatever he claims America ordered Suharto. Now, take a look back at Mazo’s previous statements. I pointed out before that Mazo tried to pin the blame solely on christian members of the Indonesian military. Notice what he says here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044217
“You refer to the Christian Generals as a “handful”, yet these Christian Generals were the architects of both suppresing political Islam and Islamists within Indonesia, and invading East Timor and West Papua
General Moerdani was the one in charge of the entire invasion plan of East Timor and he was involved in West Papua’s takeover.
General Syafei insulted Islam and the Quran repeatedly in public and was never punished or reprimanded.
Both of them worked to suppress Islamists and practicing Muslims in the Indonesian army and stop political Islam from rising to power in Indonesia.”
Not only he’s contradicting his previous statements (because now he separates what the military did from whatever orders he claims America gave Suharto), he also returns to the same “christians did it” excuse. He also shows himself to be biased in favor if the sharia-imposing islamists and to be fuming at the prospect of a christian insulting the quran and getting away with it!
Ladies and gentlemen, i started out by asking Mazo if he condemned Indonesia for what happened in East Timor. Not christians, muslims, animists, chinese, hindus, javanese, balinese or acehnese. Indonesia. Mazo refused to do so. During the course of this argument i gave irrefutable evidence that the major share of the responsibility lies with the Indonesian army. Mazo named and blamed a handful of christian generals, denied a genocide took place in East Timor, blamed the US and Australia for the genocide in East Timor, accused the US of having Suharto murdering 600,000 suspects of being communists, gave a subtle nod of approval to the Jewish Holocaust, provided no evidence to back his claims (in some cases the evidence he provided even contradicted what he said, lol!), supported the forcing of sharia law on religious minorities by the achenese, had more pity for the sharia-law imposing islamists killed during the aceh rebellion than for the East Timorese killed by the invading Indonesian prefering instead for a “blame the victim” approach, and refused to condemn Indonesia for anything whatsoever. He did so despite claiming not being pro-Indonesian. In fact, he considers a christian insulting the quran and getting away with it an offense as severe as, or even more severe, than the atrocities the Indonesian army committed in East Timor!
My friends, it’s because of people like Mazo that sites like Jihad Watch need to exist. Clearly he has nothing but despise for non-muslims, he hates and demonizes western countries (like i said before, it’s part of the standard muslim approach to other cultures) and in any sane country his claims would land him a spot on any terror watch list. Now, i ask you, what do you think made him the way he is? Was he born the genocide denier, western loathing, christian hating, secular bashing, pro-sharia, Indonesia exonerating, jewish holocaust approving hateful little sociopathic bigot he’s proved himself to be? Or was he taught to be like that? And if he was taught to be like that, what was taught to him, and by who?
Mazo says
Holy #### now Angemon is resorting to attributing totally false claims to me like gravenimage does.
He claims I “blame the victim”, and nowhere did I say anything about blaming East Timorese for getting invaded, I did not even quote the part where Semeru talked about
East Timorese militia and purposefully deleted that because it had nothing to do with my point when I listed the Generals involved in the invasion.
I even said some atrocities could be more horrific than genocides, I said Japanese atrocities were more horrific than German Holocaust, if there is someone only one member of an ethnic group, and someone shoots him with the INTENT of wiping out that ethnic group, that is considered genocide, but if a serial killer rapes, tortures, mutilates and kills 50 random people, that is not genocide.
I even posted this arricle which Angemon says “refutes” my claims- no it doesn’t, it clearly talks about INTENT of the atrocities, whether it was the INTENT to destroy an ethnic group, which I pointed out determined what consisted of genocide.
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf
II Distinguishing Genocide from other Crimes
<B]III Was the Violence in East Timor Genocide?
A Elements of the Crime of Genocide
1 Membership of a Group
2 Intention to Destroy the Group
B Definition of Acts Amounting to Genocide
And Angemon says me posting this article refutes myself, LOL. No, I agree with the article, I stated that atrocities can be more horrible than what is considered genocide (according to international law). People should change the law.
One wonders why Angemon tried to associate me with Semeru and Indonesia in the first place- is it because Philip Jihadski accused me and Semeru of being the same person? I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once, the reason I mentioned East timor and Indonesia was in RESPONSE to JWatchers like DDA(Voldemort’s Army) trying to pin the blame on Islam for Indonesian mass murders and atrocities, which is why I refute their claims and point out that the West and Christians backed the atrocities.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/number-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza-into-israel-reaches-130-and-still-climbing/comment-page-1#comment-1022050
AGAIN, my first post on the issue was an attack on Indonesia and a rebuttal to Dumbledoresarmy (voldemort’s army) blaming Islam for East Timor-
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1012374
Mazo
February 22, 2014 at 3:13 pm
@dumbledoresarmy
Excuse me, but judging from your sweeping remarks, you have no idea about the political situation in southeast asia and are ignorantly chalking it up to “Muslim” vs “non-Muslim”.
The situation is two oppresive governments, Indonesia and the Philippines, waging war against both Christian and Muslim separatist minorities.
In Indonesia, the separatism is based on ethnic lines. Both Muslim, Christians, and pagan minorities in Indonesia allied together to fight the Javanese dominated Indonesian government.
During colonial times, the Dutch ensured Javanese supremacy over all other ethnic groups and moved ethnic Muslim Javanese and Muslim Madurese settlers to Borneo, Papua, and other places. This not only pissed off the pagan Papuans, the Acehnese Muslims in Sumatra and the Malay Muslims in Borneo were equally pissed off at the Dutch dumping Javanese and Madurese Muslims in their land.
The four main separatists movements in Indonesia were the Muslim Free Aceh Movement led by Hasan Di Tiro, the Christian South Molucca separatists, the pagan/Christian Free Papua Movement led by Jacob Prai, and the East Timor separatists. They allies together and with the Moro separatists in the Philippines.
One of the East Timorese FRETILIN separatist leaders was an Arab Muslim, Mari Alkatiri, who became the First Prime Minister of East Timor. He led the struggle against Indonesian rule and was close to China, which was why you Australians didn’t like him. He moved East Timor close to China’s orbit.
Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan strongman, supported all of the separatists in Indonesia and the Philippines under the Mathaba network. Hasan Di Tiro, the Achenese separatist leader, took control of Mathaba with Gaddafi’s support.
The Muslim Acehnese separatists under Hasan Di Tiro openly announced their support to the Chrisian and pagan West Papuan, Maluccan, and East Timorese separatists, saying that all minorities in Indonesia should be liberated from Javanese domination. Under Mathaba, the Libyans and Muslim Acehnese, trained and armed the Christian and pagan West Papaun fighters, the East Timorese FRETILIN fighters, and the Moro Muslim separatists in the Philippines.
As a result, Indonesia and the Philippines supported each other in cracking down on each other’s separatists. The Moro separatists were furious at Indonesia for siding with the Philippines, Indonesia helping the Philippines try to enter the OIC, and blocking Moro independence.
In Indonesia itself, after the anti-Chinese riots in Java, later in 1999, there were little publicized mass riots going on in Borneo. It involved Malay Muslims allying with Dayak animists, against Madurese Muslims.
The Dutch colonialists and the Javanese dominated Indonesian government had been moving Madurese Muslim colonists onto Dayak and Malay land in Borneo. The Malays had good relations with the local non-Muslim Chinese and Dayaks, but they hated and despised the Madurese, despite sharing the same religion. As a result, the Malays and Dayaks carried out mass murders and rapes against the Madurese, with the Indonesian government not lifting a finger to stop the violence.
If you study Philippines and Indonesian history, you would find that the evidence is on the side of the separatists, both the Muslims and the pagan/Christians. The Spanish and Dutch colonialists initiated the wars against the Moros and others.
The Moros practiced a form of Islam mixed with animism and Hindu-Buddhist influences, since they were converted peacefully by preachers. They never practiced full Sharia.
Look particularly at the Chinese minority community in the Philippines. The Chinese were pagans. The Spanish actively persecuted the Chinese minority for being non-Catholic, forcing them to live in the parang ghetto in Manila, levying higher taxes on them, and periodically massacring and expelling them.
By contrast, the Moro Sultans allowed the Chinese community to build temples in their capital, and form massive trading communities with no Jizya, ghetto, or persecution. Sometimes Chinese men even married Moros without converting to Islam since their practice of Islam was very lax.
Chinese pagans sided with the Moros in battle against the Spanish. In the 18th century, several thousand Chinese expelled from Manila joined the Moro armies to fight, and in the 19th century, Chinese traders were actively involved in shipping guns to the Moros to fight the Spanish.
The Moros also resisted and fought the Japanese in World War 2. The Japanese faced particularly fierce resistance from the Moros, while in Indonesia, the Javanese collaborated and sided with Japan.
The Philippine government and Indonesian government both engaged in demographic flooding, the Philippines sent millions of Filipino Christian colonists from Visayas and Luzon to colonize Moro land on Mindanao, the Indonesian government also sent millions of Javanese and Madurese to colonized Papuan, Moluccan, Dayak, Malay, Acehnese, and Timorese land.
The Flipino colonists engaged in brutal atrocities under the ilaga militia. These Filipinos mixed Catholicism with brutal animist practicies. Some Filipino Ilaga Militiamen killed an Italian Catholic priest and ate his brains in a ceremony.
In Indonesia, the Muslim Acehnese collaborated with pagan and Christians to fight the Muslim Javanese dominated government, thats because the fight isn’t about religion, its about ethnicity.
Please approach history with an open mind, and not with any bias towards on religion or another. I’m not making any comments on Islam or Christianity themselves (in fact I noted that Moros were lax Muslims, they didn’t levy Jizya on Chinese like they are required to in Islam, same with the Filipino cannibals who ate the Italian Priest, they weren’t true Catholics), just don’t apply the lens of religion to history because it is not what it seems.
God bless the East Timorese, West Papuans, Moros, Acehnese, south Moluccans, Chinese, and even the Indonesian Javanese and Filipino oppresors, we should hope and pray that the suffering and violence comes to an end and that all the minorities will have their full rights and autonomy.
I wonder why Angemon thinks that it is necesary to ask ME to condemn Indonesian atrocities in East Timor, just because I talked about Indonesia and East Timor IN RESPONSE to claims from people like DDA, who blatantly and falsely blamed Islam for Indonesia’s invasion, why doesn’t Angemon ask DDA and gravenimage to condemn western, American and Australia support of Indonesian atrocities against Timorese and Papuans? Their countries supported and still support Indonesia today, the onus is on them, not me, to condemn it.
Angemon says
The utterly defeated Mazo posted:
“Holy #### now Angemon is resorting to attributing totally false claims to me like gravenimage does”
“Tamaskan, tatamkan.” (play the victim, you will win – Arab proverb). That’s what Mazo is doing now. Minus the win part 😀
“He claims I “blame the victim”, and nowhere did I say anything about blaming East Timorese for getting invaded, I did not even quote the part where Semeru talked about”
Pitiful little liar says i claim he said he blamed East Timor for getting invaded. Which i didn’t, hence why he doesn’t have a link to a post of me saying so. More lies from Mazo. Once again, what a shocker!
“I even said some atrocities could be more horrific than genocides”
When you tried to deny that what happened in East Timor was a genocide.
“I even posted this arricle which Angemon says “refutes” my claims- no it doesn’t, it clearly talks about INTENT of the atrocities, whether it was the INTENT to destroy an ethnic group, which I pointed out determined what consisted of genocide.
http://mjil.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/downloadc6da1.pdf”
Actually, on your first quotation of that article you quoted a bit more of that article:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044217
“the probability that the violence in East Timor did not legally amount to ‘genocide’ under the international definition raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.
Like i noted here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044250
“Mazo, it’s you who need to learn how to read, Look at what’s written there; is says that if what happened in East Timor does not amounting to genocide then it raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform.
I’m going to explain what that means like if you’re a really, really stupid person: If what happened in East Timor is not genocide then the Genocide Convention is not doing its job and should be reformed. You’re taking an “if… then” scenario and trying to present it as being “certainly not”.”
What we have here is Mazo selectively quoting an article that says that if the standards of the Genocide convention don’t acknowledge that what happened in East Timor was a genocide then the Genocide convention should be reformed. It’s the exact opposite that what Mazo now tries to claim through selectively quoting. So yeah, the article you choose to quote still says the opposite from what you claim it says. Before you were in the position of someone who made a dumb mistake by not bothering to read what the article said before quoting from it, now you’re in the position of someone who made a dumb mistake by not bothering to read what the article said before quoting from it and tried to cover its ass it by quote mining and trying to to reinterpret it. Before you were dumb, now you’re dumb, ill-intended and a sore loser.
“No, I agree with the article, I stated that atrocities can be more horrible than what is considered genocide (according to international law). People should change the law.”
Ah, Mazo is in full liar mode! Not only the “atrocities are worse than genocide” was a point he made (not something the article tried to make, hence why he’s lying), if he really agrees with the article then he agrees that what happened in East Timor was a genocide. Here’s a quote from the article Mazo doesn’t want you to see:
“The conflict in East Timor most accurately qualifies as genocide against a ‘political group’, or alternatively as ‘cultural genocide’,”
Hey, remember when i defined genocide?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1044070
“Here’s the definition of genocide:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide
genocide
[jen-uh-sahyd]
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group<.”
So, the article Mazo brought to defend his claim that there was no genocide in East Timor clearly states that there was a genocide, and it does so by using the definition i gave and which was refuted by Mazo! Folks, you can’t make this stuff up! Mazo quoted an article without reading it, fell flat on his ass because of it, and when trying to make it better he fell flat on his face! 😀 😀 😀 😀
We have that, we have the part where it says that if what happened in East Timor wasn’t genocide then the definition of genocide needs to be changed. And yet, according to Mazo, that article does not refute his claim that there was no genocide in East Timor. Poor little Mazo is delusional 😉
“One wonders why Angemon tried to associate me with Semeru and Indonesia in the first place- is it because Philip Jihadski accused me and Semeru of being the same person?”
Ah, notice how Mazo tries to rehash his material. He accused me of claiming he and Semeru are one and the same to avoid answering my question whether he condemned Indonesia’s actions in East Timor. Like i explained, he made that accusation based solely on creative reinterpretation of an old post of mine. It was so irrelevant back then as it is now. And whether PJ accused Mazo and Semeru of being one and the same is also irrelevant to any of Mazo’s claims, although it’s funny the mess Mazo got himself into by bringing that up. If neither of us accused them of being the same, then it’s a lie Mazo commonly uses to draw away from the argument at hand. If both of us did, then it’s strange how two different users reached the same conclusion, isn’t it? 😀
“ I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once,”
Except when you blamed America and Australia for what happened in East Timor. And when you denied the genocide that took place in East Timor.
“, the reason I mentioned East timor and Indonesia was in RESPONSE to JWatchers like DDA(Voldemort’s Army) trying to pin the blame on Islam for Indonesian mass murders and atrocities”
Actually, you were the one who first brought up Indonesia. On your first post here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041020
Also, i believe that was your second post here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041167
More Indonesia!
In any way, whether they claim islam is to blame or not you should be able to say something like “Yes, Indonesia invaded East Timor and committed atrocities and genocide against the East Timorese, but that had nothing to do with islam”. If you refuse to condemn what Indonesia did because you don’t want islam to look bad then you’re acknowledging that islam had something to do with Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide committed against the East Timorese.
“which is why I refute their claims and point out that the West and Christians backed the atrocities.”
Actually, going by your claim, one would believe Americans, Australians and Christians, and not the Indonesian army, were the ones on the ground doing the killing in East Timor. Regardless of that, i asked you if you condemned Indonesia for what happened in East Timor, not islam, so whatever you claim DDA says bares no importance to the question i asked you.
“I wonder why Angemon thinks that it is necesary to ask ME to condemn Indonesian atrocities in East Timor”
I wonder why Mazo goes to such great lengths to avoid answering my question.
“ why doesn’t Angemon ask DDA and gravenimage to condemn western, American and Australia support of Indonesian atrocities against Timorese and Papuans? Their countries supported and still support Indonesia today, the onus is on them, not me, to condemn it.”
Ha ha, Mazo thinks he’s so smart, trying to weasel his way out of my question by playing the false equivalence game! I’m asking you whether you condemn Indonesia’s actions or not. What other people think about the US and Australia bears absolutely no influence about what you think of Indonesia. Tell you what, answer my question and i’ll ask them 😉
So Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s actions in East Timor? The invasion, the atrocities, the genocide… Do you condemn them? Yes or No?
Angemon says
Mazo posted:
“I never said a positive word about Indonesia, not once”
Notice the dishonesty oozing down from every word. Mazo would have us believe that he is not a staunch supporter of Indonesia, even though he denied the genocide of the East Timorese and placed that blame of Indonesia’s actions on Australia and America. But according to him, it’s ok because he never said a positive word about Indonesia. Taqqyia-based deception at it’s finest:
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/
“Following their prophet’s example, many leading Muslim figures have used tawriya, such as Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, founder of one of Islam’s four schools of law, practiced in Saudi Arabia (the teachings of which have spread far and wide among the world’s Muslims, thanks to Saudi funding). Once when Hanbal was conducting class, someone came knocking, asking for one of his students. Hanbal answered, “He’s not here, what would he be doing here?”—all the time pointing at his hand, as if to say “he’s not in my hand.” The caller, who could not see Hanbal’s hands, assumed the student was simply not there and left.
Mazo says
I took a little trip down memory lane to see if what Angemon claims is true.
Lets see, ANGEMON calls me out of the blue for absolutely NO reason to associate me with Semeru and sarcastically asks me to write an Apologia for the actions of anti-Shia Indonesian Javanese, when I never defended Indonesians or Indonesia, neither before not after that post. Note that he made the first comment on here, not me.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1039481
Going back further, Angemon claims that I/Semeru said Indonesian Islam is tolerant. Another out of the blue sarcastic jab at me, without me commenting on that article earlier. I dare him to show me a post where I was talking about Indonesian Islam being tolerant before that post of his. Guess what? It doesn’t exist, because he deliberately confused me with Semeru who said Indonesian Islam is tolerant, I didn’t say that before he made that attack.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-malaysia-judge-says-huge-hindu-buddhist-statues-an-affront-to-islam/comment-page-1#comment-1037380
Angemom comes out as a liar again in this earlier post, this time, associating Semeru with me. Semeru has never said anything significant on Chinese related articles because he actually doesn’t know alot about China, he never either apologized for Uyghurs nor for the Chinese government, only attacking the points other people made.
Angemon clearly and consistently indicates that me and Semeru are the same person, using the same singular pronoun to refer to us, and falsely ascribing my Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me, and falsely ascribing claims of Uyghur oppresion to both me and Semeru. That indicates he believed we were one person like Philip Jihadski did.
Not only that, I never said any Muslims in China were peaceful, and I never said Uyghurs were oppressed. In fact, I am on the Chinese side here, I reprimanded Kepha several times for posting Uyghur nationalist propaganda, but slimeballs like Angemon and gravenimage assigned totally false positions to me.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/the-fight-against-china-is-our-islamic-responsibility-and-we-have-to-fulfill-it
Angemon
March 19, 2014 at 4:34 am
Now, now, let’s all wait for semeru/mazo to tell us that it’s just some ethnic minority being repressed by the chinese and that islam has nothing to do with it. Remember the train station incident? How he jumped at our throats because there was no evidence it were the Uighurs, and how the Uighurs and all muslim minorities in China were peaceful? If and when semeru/mazo assures us that this has nothing to do with islam then we can be sure islam is the motivation.
What I said to Kepha.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/the-fight-against-china-is-our-islamic-responsibility-and-we-have-to-fulfill-it/comment-page-1#comment-1025517
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/china-muslim-leaders-support-for-knife-attack-proves-china-faces-jihad-terror-threat/comment-page-1#comment-1026765
Angemon says
Ah, Mazo’s mask finally dropped! All his arguments have been shot down but instead of humbly and graciously stepping down he makes a series of pointless personal attacks that add nothing to the discussion.
First of all, i’d like to point out that going on dragging up weeks/months old posts the way Mazo is doing is stalking and it’s overall creepy, but let’s overlook that for now. We’ll see that not only all Mazo posted is irrelevant to the argument (notice that i mentioned this before), most of it has also been debunked before and he’s just rehashing old material. Again.
“I took a little trip down memory lane to see if what Angemon claims is true.”
Actually, you’re just trying to rehash old, debunk material that’s irrelevant to the discussion regarding Indonesia. All your arguments were shot down and shut down, you have nothing to stand on so you resort to petty personal attacks.
“Lets see, ANGEMON calls me out of the blue for absolutely NO reason to associate me with Semeru and sarcastically asks me to write an Apologia for the actions of anti-Shia Indonesian Javanese, when I never defended Indonesians or Indonesia, neither before not after that post.”
Notice that whatever was said in that topic is irrelevant for this topic. Anyway, here’s what i say to Semeru in that topic:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1041366
“It seems you and Mazo always use the same argument when defending Indonesia: “oh, there were catholics involved so it’s all ok”.
Now look at what Mazo is claiming:
“Angemon clearly and consistently indicates that me and Semeru are the same person, using the same singular pronoun to refer to us”
Now let’s look at more from this very topic:
“http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041959
“I’m laughing my ass of at Mazo. He [Mazo] quotes semeru
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1042032
“I feel that Mazo and Semeru’s recent behaviour is intolerable, even going by their usual standards”
“Not only Mazo and Semeru have brought nothing new or truthful to the discussion, but they also try to demonize anyone who disagrees with them
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/malaysia-obama-to-honor-islam-by-visiting-triumphal-mosque-built-on-site-of-church/comment-page-1#comment-1041920
“But Semeru, just like Mazo, pins everything on christians.”
I could quote more, and i could quote many more times when i did not used Mazo and Semeru interchangeably, but i believe i’ve established my point. Now, does it really look like that i “clearly and consistently” indicated that Mazo and Semeru “are the same person, using the same singular pronoun to refer to us {them]“?. The answer is a resounding NO. I’ve explained that before, on this very topic. Mazo is just trying to rehash old material which, in any way, is completely irrelevant to the argument regarding Indonesia’s genocide of the East Timorese. Given how Mazo provided evidence for the genocide while claiming it was evidence against it, i’d say he should spend less time making personal attacks against me (or against anyone else for that matter) and more time checking his sources and working on his argument.
“and falsely ascribing my Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me, and falsely ascribing claims of Uyghur oppresion to both me and Semeru. ”
Mazo, read that again:
“and falsely ascribing my Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 😀 😀 😀 ;D 😀 😀 😀
Mazo talks about his Semeru’s claims, therefore ADMITTING HE’S SEMERU, and yet he whines about how i falsely attributed HIS claims to HIM!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Mazo just admitted to being Semeru!!!!!!!
Whether he really is or not, it’s irrelevant! If he isn’t then he lied by saying he is, and since he claimed to be he can no longer use the “angemon is a liar because he claimed me and semeru are one and the same” non-sequitur, because he said he’s semeru. If he really is semeru then he can no longer use the “angemon is a liar because he claimed me and semeru are one and the same” because had i even said that then it would be true so i wouldn’t be lying, would i?
Ha ha ha! “my Semeru’s claims“, said Mazo
Anyway, moving on:
“slimeballs like Angemon and gravenimage assigned totally false positions to me.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/the-fight-against-china-is-our-islamic-responsibility-and-we-have-to-fulfill-it
Angemon
March 19, 2014 at 4:34 am
Now, now, let’s all wait for semeru/mazo to tell us that it’s just some ethnic minority being repressed by the chinese and that islam has nothing to do with it. Remember the train station incident? How he jumped at our throats because there was no evidence it were the Uighurs, and how the Uighurs and all muslim minorities in China were peaceful? If and when semeru/mazo assures us that this has nothing to do with islam then we can be sure islam is the motivation.”
OK, the false position Mazo claims i attributed to him is that in the train station incident Mazo jumped at our throats because there was no evidence it were the Uighurs and that all muslim minorities in china were peaceful.
Here’s what Mazo said on the train station incident:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/china-islamic-jihadists-murder-27-injure-109-in-jihad-attack-at-kunming-railway-station/comment-page-1#comment-1015460
“ Mazo
March 1, 2014 at 1:19 pm
And with no reliable sources whatsoever besides liveleak, JW jumps to the conclusion that these must be the Uyghurs when both the Chinese and western media said that the assailants were unknown.
Mass stabbings which has nothing to do with Muslims have occured before in China, before embarrasing yourself, wait for the media to confirm who did it.
I’ve dealt with Muslims from China, they keep their religion to themselves ”
There you have it folks, Mazo jumping at our throats and saying there was no evidence that it were the Uighurs and that all muslim minorities in china were peaceful. Which is to say, Mazo saying exactly what he claims i falsely attribute to him.
BTW, thank you for bringing that up. I’d forgot all about it. In that post you also say “If the attackers turn out not to be Uyghurs, go eat a tub of sand and never ever stick your nose into asian affairs again“. Turns out the attackers were Uighur. Have you ate that tube of sand yet, Mazo? 😀 😀 😀
P.S.: Mazo said “Mass stabbings which has nothing to do with“. Going by his logic, since he’s using the 3rd person singular instead of a plural he’s therefore clearly and consistently saying that Mass and stabbings are the same person. Don’t blame me for the brain cells lost for reading that, folks. It’s Mazo logic.
Angemon says
I’m sorry, but i need to stress that out again. Mazo acts like a creepy stalker, drags out several of my old posts, whines and complains that i accuse him of being Semeru (which i didn’t, and i’ve dekunked those accusations before) only to admit to being Semeru:
“and falsely ascribing my Semeru’s claims”
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
If i were a muslim this would be the time i’d be shouting “allahu Akbar” and “tabkir”!. Seriously folks, every time Mazo speaks he manages to get his foot in his mouth, and he manages to do so despite having his head so up his ass he can check for stomach ulcers 😀 😀 😀
Oh, and he accused me of attributing a false claim so i went and checked his claim and it turns out what he claims i falsely attributed to him is almost ad verbatim what he said, but that’s just the icing on the cake for me. Mazo made several personal attacks falsely accusing me of saying he and semeru are one and the same only to say that they ARE!
Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide perpetrated against the East Timorese?
Mazo says
What a liar. I said in the PAST TENSE, that you accused me and Semeru of being the same person. It was not until AFTER Semeru said this that you acknowledged we were two people
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1039601
Semeru
April 22, 2014 at 2:13 am
Angemon, You just do not have a clue
Firstly, I am not Mazo
But again despite that, Angemon again engages in ####stirring and falsely ascribes Semeru’s claims to me, i never said anything about Wahhabis, Shia, or Islam in Indonesia being peaceful/better than Islam elsewhere. I NEVER talked about Islamic theology.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites/comment-page-1#comment-1039655
Angemon
April 22, 2014 at 5:44 am
And notice how, even though was Truthsayer who said “officially only 5 religions are accepted” i’m the one who needs to “get for facts right“. More ignorance/stupidity/obfuscation from Semeru – what a surprise.
Of course, since Truthsayer is repeating Semeru/Mazo’s propaganda (“oh, sunni and shia islam in Indonesia are different from the sunni and shia islam practiced in the rest of the world, whatever bad things indonesian muslims do is the fault of saudi wahabis”) Semeru/Mazo won’t dare to criticize him, especially if he can pin statements he claims to be false on someone who criticized Indonesia in the past.
As for this statement of mine
I’ve dealt with Muslims from China, they keep their religion to themselves ”
No where did I indicate peacefullness or non violence. I repeatedly said Muslims in China dont PROSELYTIZE to others, I didn’t say they were peaceful, they keep their religion to themselves and don’t talk about their religion to non-Muslims, unlike immigrant Muslims in Europe. They will punch you back if you punch them, and I repeatedly mentioned that they tended to serve in China’s military because they are given to fighting.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/western-media-condemns-terrorist-attacks-that-happen-at-their-door-but-show-sympathy-to-terrorists-killing-people-brutally-in-china/comment-page-1#comment-1016978
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/03/the-fight-against-china-is-our-islamic-responsibility-and-we-have-to-fulfill-it/comment-page-1#comment-1031766
I even described their religions devotion as fanatic. (And there is nothing wrong with that at all, they are not committing any terrorist attacks and they are fanatic believers in Islam)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/china-xinjiang-governor-denounces-heresy-such-as-jihadist-martyrs-go-to-heaven/comment-page-1#comment-1033451
Angemon says
The utterly trashed Mazo posted:
“What a liar.”
Yes, yes you are. We’ve established that beyond any doubt. Notice how Mazo forgot to adress that time he said he and Semeru are the same person:
“and falsely ascribing my [Mazo’s] Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me”
See, the little weasel ADMITTED to being Semeru and now he’s whining about me supposedly claiming he and Semeru are one and the same. News flash buddy: i already debunked your asinine claims, you’ve exposed yourself as the lying sack of lying crap you really are, so before demanding a response about something I already debunked you netter start explaining why you said you’re Semeru:
“and falsely ascribing my [Mazo’s] Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me”
After explaining that, have you ate the tube of sand yet?
And finally: Do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide committed by the Indonesian against the East Timorese?
I’m expecting you to ignore the points i raised and instead make more personal attacks and false accusations of me not replying to you. Surprise me 😉
PS:
“falsely ascribing my [Mazo’s] Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me [Mazo]”
😀 😀 😀
Mazo says
According to Angemon, every typo President Bush of America made in his speeches must be true. I made a typo by inserting “my” into a sentence so Angemon claims I am the same person as
Semeru LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/bushisms/2000/03/the_complete_bushisms.html
Bush Never Stops Thinking About New Ways to Harm America …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PTiMKsTo-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be6tunbRcs8
Angemon says
Mazo, posted, trying to weasel away from his way out:
“According to Angemon, every typo President Bush of America made in his speeches must be true. ”
Did i say anything about Bush’s typos being true? I didn’t? Thought so, more lies from Mazo – what a shocker.
(BTW, it’s FORMER President Bush since 2008, go read a paper once in a while).
“ I made a typo by inserting “my” into a sentence so Angemon claims I am the same person as Semeru LOL.”
Notice the strawman. Notice how he misrepresents what really happened. It’s not that i’m “claiming” he’s Semeru because he made a “typo”, it’s that he wrote a sentence that only makes sense if he’s Semeru.
Anyway, let’s check what a typo is:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/typo
typo
[tahy-poh]
noun, plural typos. Informal.
typographical error.
OK, let’s check what’s a typographical error
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/typographical error
typographical error
noun
an error in printed or typewritten matter resulting from striking the improper key of a keyboard, from mechanical failure, or the like.
Hmmm, no mention of “adding extra words” as being “typos”. So, did you “accidentally” strike 3 wrong keys (“m”, “y” and spacebar)? Was there a “mechanical failure” that somehow added the word and the space to your sentence? Do you have more “typos” where you “accidentally” insert words into sentences to show? Because, like you say, you inserted a word. Do you see the problem inherent with trying to classify it as a typo? Not only that, the word you inserted made you admit you’re Semeru.
Now, what’s more likely, you accidentally and randomly inserting what was, given the context, the most damaging word for the case you were trying to make, or you committing a Freudian slip?
http://psychology.about.com/od/sigmundfreud/f/freudian-slip.htm
“A Freudian slip is a verbal or memory mistake that is believed to be linked to the unconscious mind. Common examples include an individual calling his or her spouse by an ex’s name, saying the wrong word or even misinterpreting a written or spoken word.
Discovered by Sigmund Freud, he described a variety of different types and examples of Freudian slips in his 1901 book The Psychopathology of Everyday Life. According to Freud,these errors reveal an unconscious thought, belief or wish.
“Two factors seem to play a part in bringing to consciousness the substitutive names: first, the effort of attention, and second, and inner determinant which adheres to the psychic material,” Freud suggested in his book. “Besides the simple forgetting of proper names there is another forgetting which is motivated by repression,” Freud explained (1901). According to Freud, unacceptable thoughts or beliefs are withheld from conscious awareness, and these slip help reveal what is hidden in the unconscious.
The term is popularly used today in a humorous way when a person makes a mistake in speech. In these situations, observers often suggest (in a comic way) that the mistake reveals some type of hidden emotion on the part of the speaker.”
Did you not proof-read your post? Do you not read what you write while you write? If you’re Semeru, like you claim, then you’d have found no problem when reading and proof-reading “my Semeru’s claims” because it subconsciously you would know it to be the truth. Not only that, i had to mention it several times to elicit a response. If it really were a “typo” then you would simply have shrugged it off at the fist mention of it. Instead, you preferred to ignore it and engage in unrelated personal attacks, as if you realized the crap you made by admitting you’re Semeru and were eager to avoid it.
In fact, you’re doing the same dodging the issue here, trying to ridicule me by pretending i said something about Bush’s typos. Psst, if you really, really want to go for your ridiculous “typos being true” theory you’re falsely attributing to me then you need to accept that muslims don’t get 72 virgins in the afterlife. According to muslim apologists, the word “virgins” is a “typo” in a translation, the real word is “raisins”. Can you do that? Can you say out loud that the reward of the martyrs is not 72 virgins but 72 raisins?
So, Mazo, do you condemn Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor and the atrocities and genocide committed against the East Timorese? Are you a muslim? Is it true that the reward for islamic martyrs in heaven is 72 raisins and that 72 virgins was a typo? Why did you admit to being Semeru after making such a big deal out of me supposedly accusing you of it and going out of your way to deny it? Shouldn’t you take a break to avoid further Freudian slips?
Peace out, think carefully and always proof read your responses 😀
voegelinian says
Nowhere in that wikipedia article is there evidence of Mazo’s claim — that “America told Suharto to annihilate over 600,000 innocents accused of being “Communist”.”
Mazo says
Take ESL classes, you need them.
If it really were a “typo” then you would simply have shrugged it off at the fist mention of it. Instead, you preferred to ignore it and engage in unrelated personal attacks, as if you realized the crap you made by admitting you’re Semeru and were eager to avoid it.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/shrug+off
shrug something off (as something) and pass something off (as something)
to ignore something unpleasant or offensive as if it meant something else. She shrugged off the criticism as harmless. I passed off the remark as misinformed. Bill scolded me, but I just passed it off.
Angemon says
HA HA HA! Mazo did it AGAIN! He tried to counter my point but he ended up strengthening what i said!!! 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Mazo posted:
“If it really were a “typo” then you would simply have shrugged it off at the fist mention of it. Instead, you preferred to ignore it and engage in unrelated personal attacks, as if you realized the crap you made by admitting you’re Semeru and were eager to avoid it.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/shrug+off
shrug something off (as something) and pass something off (as something)
to ignore something unpleasant or offensive as if it meant something else. She shrugged off the criticism as harmless. I passed off the remark as misinformed. Bill scolded me, but I just passed it off.”
Notice that it’s Mazo’s emphasis, not mine. Also notice how it’s used on the examples. “She took the unpleasant criticism as if it meant something harmless”. “I took the unpleasant remark as if it were something misinformed”. So i ask you: where are you “taking it as if it meant something else” after i first mention it? Like i said, you ignored it. You didn’t “take it as something else”. In fact, I had to press the issue to get a explanation. In any way, it was a piss-poor explanation that didn’t hold up to scrutiny. But now let’s go with the “taking it as meaning something else” possibility Mazo is trying to feed us. The only way that makes sense is if when Mazo said his claims were Semeru’s claims (and therefore ADMITTING to being Semeru) he’s telling he’s Semeru and then TRIED TO PASS IT as a typo. That’s the only scenario where the definition of “shrug off” he gave us makes sense, he’s be ignoring something unpleasant (the fact that he ADMITTED being Semeru -which is unpleasant, given had flat out denied it – and pretending it’s something harmless like a typo.
Oh Mazo, you’ve done it again 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Also notice how Mazo decided to not to reply on directly to what said where i said it. He brought it up out of the blue on an unrelated discussion. Maybe he was hoping i wouldn’t notice it so later on he could link to there and say i never replied to it. Maybe his tear-filled eyes and trembling hand caused him to hit the wrong “reply”link, which happened to be located far away from the right one. I don’t known and i don’t really care.
Angemon says
Ladies and gentlemen, lightning DOES strikes twice! That was the second time Mazo tried to counter something i said only but ends strengthening my case. The first was when he linked to an article (or, like he wrote, “arricle”. That’s a typo, randomly adding a word is not a typo) to claim there was no genocide in East Timor, and the article ended up saying
“ The probability that the violence in East Timor did not legally amount to ‘genocide’ under the international definition raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the Genocide Convention and the pressing need for its reform”
and
“The conflict in East Timor most accurately qualifies as genocide against a ‘political group’, or alternatively as ‘cultural genocide’”
Coincidentally, earlier i on i gave a definition of genocide including political and cultural groups, which Mazo denied. So he ended up giving a source for genocide in East Timor while claiming it meant there was no genocide in East Timor.
Later on, he whined about me “falsely ascribing my[Mazo] Semeru’s claims about Indonesian Islam to me[Mazo]“. Now, that only makes sense if Mazo IS Semeru, which, like i said before, is irrelevant to the argument regarding Indonesia, but he went out of his way to deny. I asked him about it, he never answered. I asked him again, he claimed it was a typo. I skewer his “it was a typo” explanation and he tries to attack me about semantics. According to him, my usage of “shrug off” was wrong. Except that going by the very definition he gave my usage is right.
Mazo didn’t try to pass it as something else the first time i asked about it, he ignored my question and went on irrelevant personal attacks. The second time he pretended it was a typo, but even by his definition he’s dooming himself! He’s passing something unpleasant (the fact that he ADMITTED being Mazo) as if it were something harmless (a typo).
So he got his ass handed over to him once because he failed to read and comprehend what he was quoting once. Like most crazy people, Mazo only drew encouragement from his failure and got his ass handed over to him again for failing to read and comprehend what he was quoting. Again.
Mazo, whether i need ESL lessons or not (and it seems you’re the one getting a lot of things wrong) is irrelevant. You need to start reading and understanding what you post. Try this formula from now on:
crouch over keyboard – engage brain – read posts – use comprehension to gain understanding of the words contained within said posts (note: this is a crucial part, this is the part you’ve been skipping) – digest and process information – respond accordingly
I say that because your current method of:
skim read posts – mouthbreathe – type nonsensical drivel
doesn’t seem to be going too well for you.
Angemon says
“Take ESL classes, you need them.”
How about this: you take all the effort you use for being a controlling self-centered prick and put it into curing your own retardedness and becoming a civil human being. Because what you managed to prove so far is that the more one argues and uses facts to explain you why you’re wrong the more you are convinced that whatever it is that you believe is right and only the smartest people can see that beyond the pilling up of facts and evidence that proves you wrong.
voegelinian says
Poking around the Googleverse on matters Indonesian-Islamic, at every turn one keeps bumping into different texts, ranging from the scholarly to the governmental to the autodidactically bloggerian, all repeating in various permutations the laughable meme:
“Muslim traders began arriving in the 13th century, and Islam spread peacefully…”
Angemon says
I assure you that the “islam spread peacefully” meme isn’t exclusive to Indonesia 😀
I once had a group of muslims of moroccan ancestry assuring me that the spread of islam in north africa and western europe was done peacefully. When asked about why the “peaceful” spread was done through thousands of arab and berber warriors they simply said that the “peaceful” preachers knew that the native christian kings would be jealous of them winning converts and so took warriors to protect themselves against possible attacks.
And there was this one time an american college student (he was caucasian and never identify himself as a being muslim so i’m guessing he was a lefty loony tool) flat out told me that the Barbary pirates weren’t pirates, they were the navy of the north african states who were charged with protecting their naval territory. To which i replied “oh, is that so? Then how do you account the payment european states made to those north african states to avoid getting their ships attacked and the centuries of slave raids conducted against european coastal villages? Were european coastal villages part of they territory and, if so, why were they attacking their own territory?”. His reply “those who were taken as slaves could pay their debt working for the sailors”. It took all of my self-control to avoid facepalming him hard with a closed hand on the account of how stupid that response was.
To end on a lighter note:
Mazo says
And since Agemon cannot manufacture any lies against the truth on how Islam spread mostly peacefully in southeast asia, he diverts the topic to North Africa, and he accuses me of diverting the topic LMAO.
Angemon says
The infuriated Mazo posted:
“And since Agemon cannot manufacture any lies against the truth on how Islam spread mostly peacefully in southeast asia, he diverts the topic to North Africa, and he accuses me of diverting the topic LMAO.”
Can’t tell if Mazo is hallucinating and seeing someone named Agemon posting here or if he’s misspelling my name and laughing at his own joke, does proving he has the mind of a 1st grader.
Notice that i made no comments on how islam spread in Indonesia, i simply stated a conversation i had with muslims of moroccan ancestry. But since Mazo is pissed of at me sooting down and exposing his lies he’ll take whatever chance he gets to make a personal attack. Like i said he would 😀
Angemon says
*shooting down, not sooting down
Although soot might rise from the wreckage left after his lies are shoot down 🙂
Angemon says
Also notice that while i may have been borderline rude when dealing with Mazo (although i was mainly replying in kind), debunking his logical fallacies and lies, and noticing that the links he provided to prove his claim in fact contradicted him i did not reply to his posts just to call him a liar, take potshots at his username or outright try to insult and mock him. Notice i’m replying to voegelinian and none of us even mentioned Mazo.
This post clearly shows Mazo’s maturity level (more precisely, its nonexistence). If he can’t handle losing an argument without resorting to make personal attacks to vent his anger and frustration then he should find better ways of spending his free time, preferably something that helps him becoming a better human being. Because we’ve seen him whitewashing Indonesia from its atrocities while fully blaming America and Australia for them, defending the forced implementation of full scale sharia law, giving a subtle nod of approval to the Jewish Holocaust and trying to claim what happened in East Timor was not a genocide.
Mazo says
Damn, making typos is now considered a personal attack! Better inform all the editors what those writers have been up too.
Angemon says
Actually, you’ve immature and purposefully got usernames wrong, like when you on this very topic refereed several times to voegelinian as “Vogon”, the name of an unpleasant alien species from “the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”, or when you refereed several times to dumbledore’s army as voldemort’sarmy. In any case, like i stated before, you came to a conversation where no one mentioned you to imply i somehow fabricated stories and/or tried to divert from a topic. Yeah, that qualifies as a personal attack.
Angemon says
Thanks PJ, I appreciate the props 😉
And yeah, there’s definitely something strange in Mazo/Semeru’s behaviour, although i couldn’t put my finger on it. Cognitive dissonance would certainly account for their behaviour.
In some parts I actually felt kind of bad, not only trashing Mazo feels kinda like picking on the special needs kids but i also could feel the despair emanating from some of his posts. However, the kind of tactics he uses (ad hominem, raising unrelated subjects, personal attacks, subtle changes and double speak) are so often used by islamo-supremacist morons that i just couldn’t help myself ;). If any greehorn read through the whole argument and learned a thing or two then the time i spent arguing with the poster child for inbreed moron was not a total waste. And some parts were flat out hilarious, like when his evidence actually backed my claim, or when he slipped up and admit to being Semeru 😀 😀 😀
He finally lost it, or dropped the act, or whatever it was that made him resort to standard troll tactics, so i’m kinda losing my interest in it :/ But next time i’ll be sure to ask him if he’s a muslim, alongside with if he condemns Indonesia for the atrocities in East Timor and why did he admit being Semeru 😀 😀 😀
voegelinian says
Yes Angemon, Muslims will try to claim that the invasions of Egypt and of Spain, for example, were “peaceful”.
voegelinian says
Angemon, just want to let you know I really appreciate all the fine work you’re doing exposing the torturous sophistry of Mazo here. Not only is it good work, but it’s entertaining to watch you skewer him at every turn.
Angemon says
They say all kind of crazy crap. Like i said in another topic:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/major-islamic-conference-in-paris-all-the-evil-in-the-world-originates-from-the-jews-and-the-zionist-barbarism/comment-page-1#comment-1042189
“The muslim who first told me of this went as far as to say that berber muslims were the original natives of Spain, having emigrated from North Africa, and lived in Spain peacefully until French and German Christians attacked them and drove them out because they were religious bigots.”
I feel sorry for Egypt though. Such a rich history spanning back thousands of years ago and islam is turning it into a Afghanistan-like 3rd world hellhole…
Angemon says
“Angemon, just want to let you know I really appreciate all the fine work you’re doing exposing the torturous sophistry of Mazo here. Not only is it good work, but it’s entertaining to watch you skewer him at every turn.”
lol, thanks. I think Mazo gave up a longtime ago and now is just trying to drag me down to his level. Hence the crazy claims about me not answering his articles, the jumping from issue to issue and the inability to discuss facts in a civilized way. I’m still LMFAO at his 180º turn regarding a certain website 😀 😀 😀