Let’s see. He smashed the statues, trampled on the Eucharistic hosts, and was muttering about heaven and hell. Yes, clearly this has nothing to do with Islam’s abhorrence of images and contempt for Christianity!
“France: Muslim smashes up historic church, media dismisses it as person with ‘mental problems,'” Diversity Macht Frei, August 6, 2014:
On Tuesday 5 August at Thonon-les-Bains, shortly before 8 am, a man of about 30, in only a few minutes, committed major acts of vandalisme in the church of Saint-Hippolyte and in the adjacent basilica of Saint-François-de-Sales: with exceptional force, the person overturned and broke two altars, the candelabras and lecterns, destroyed statues, tore down a tabernacle, twisted a massive bronze cross, smashed in a sacristy door and even broke some stained-glass windows.
According to the priest Le Tué, it was a “young Muslim”, but the hypothesis of a religious motivation still has to be confirmed.
… according to the Thonon priest “there is desecration but also sacrilege, since the Eucharist (hosts)* were trampled on.”
Source: lemessager.fr Via: EuroJihad
* These are wafers that Catholics eat during the Mass ceremony; they signify the body of Christ.
I looked at quite a few news reports of this incident. This is the only one I could find that includes the quote about the perpetrator being a Muslim. One other mentions that he was “of Tunisian origin” and says “he was talking about heaven and hell”. All the other reports, and the police themselves, simply describe him as a “mentally unbalanced individual”.
More photos here.



John C. Barile says
We Catholics don’t make a distinction between significance and substance of the consecrated Host. For me, this young Muslim man just trampled on Our Lord veiled under the appearance of bread. For me, this is the Bread That Came Down from Heaven, the Bread of Life, the substance of the Very Person of Christ.
John C. Barile says
I mean to say–beyond our own carnal understanding–that this Blessed Sacrament both signifies Our Lord’s Presence and substantiates His Presence.
BC says
All religious people have mental problems. Believing in things that do not exist and never existed are the basics. The Muslims though tend to complete insanity
and psychopathology
red coat says
Thank god Hitler, Stalin, Lenin and numerous others were all atheist or who knows what crimes they have committed as intelligent, rational and educated non believers?
Richado says
It’s not whether you believe in God that matters, BC, but whether God believes in you.
In your world apples equal oranges. You pride yourself on your reason and intelligence, and, yet, your comments are nothing but fallacious and baseless emotional rants. Logical fallacies such as false moral equivalence, false equivocation, and argumentum ad hominem. Not to mention a basic lack of history and context. No intellectual honesty.
It’s people like you, atheists no doubt, you aid and abet Islam as well as totalitarianism (fascism, national socialism, communism, reign of terrors and their resultant slaughters) because what you both have in common is a contempt for reason and common sense as well as hatred of Christianity- this you have in common with Islam.
Be assured though that facts and reasons will not encumber your baseless opinions.
Sovereign Man says
Not all atheists and agnostics are enemies of Christianity, in fact the vast majority are not. Most Christians, however, say little, and do nothing in regards to the common Mohammedan threat these days.
“…were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” -Winston Churchill, talking about Islam in “The River War.”
Christianity allowed the rebirth of free thought we call the Enlightenment, and since then, rational thought and science have improved quality of life faster than ever, through technology. Science has given us the power of atomic weapons – and the ability to defeat the Islamic onslaught as never before. Meanwhile, the Pope is kissing the collective Muslim behind.
BC says
Really? how can you repeat that stuff with a straight face? I mean are you an intelligent person with full mental capacity? Coming down from heaven. Where is heaven exactly?
John C. Barile says
It is certainly beyond the reach of your senses and finite grasp of reason. Yes, finite.
John C. Barile says
The same is true of me.
Augustine Thomas says
Do you go on wrestling sites and spew your bile at them? Why does Christianity threaten you so much?
By the way you should move to North Korea. There you will find the “enlightened” atheist society you seem to be looking for!
(You should know that you’re a child with no imagination if you can’t believe that the being that made the universe could exist and have a kingdom outside of his creation.)
John C. Barile says
“Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and Life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jn 6:61-64
It seems that the flesh is of no avail, since your carnal intellect, your human mind that is, just can’t wrap itself around paradox. “How can this man give us his body and blood to eat?”
Heaven is beyond time and space. Yet it is the when and the where in which this “sky god” abides; He Who Is. Heaven is the eternal now.
Kathy Brown says
Yes; we are ‘fools for Christ’. If only you could know His love!
Travis R. says
It’s not that they signify the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ, it’s that they actually become His flesh during the consecration. This attack was not only against the Bride of Christ but was an attack on Christ Himself. Pray for this man’s conversion.
Wendell says
Thank you TravisR for your comment. I was thinking the same thing.
BC says
So you admit to being a cannibal then?
John C. Barile says
That what Jesus’ listeners wondered, too. Right after He fed a crowd of them numbering 5000 men and their families.
Augustine Thomas says
Judas had the same reaction as you (no joke).
John C. Barile says
True.
John C. Barile says
Reparation to the Lord Our God is in order for these offenses of unseeing and ungrateful men.
Kathy Brown says
Yes of course: This is the Real Presence of our Blessed Savior, now being outraged by the Religion From Hell itself, Islam.
And indeed we must pray for the conversion of these brutes, at the same time that we DECIMATE them in righteous war. As I write this the ‘President’ has authorized ‘strategic air strikes’ v. these creatures. Alas! We need not get excited that at long last we’ll get the job done: This is Obama after all; and he’s doing this only because of the upcoming midterm elections.
Let us never forget to pray for Obama’s conversion, and that of all like him. God Save These United States!
Wellington says
Had mental problems? Huh-uh.
Increasingly I’m inclined to think that all Muslims have mental problems, only the degree of such varying.
Champ says
Agreed, dear Wellington …
islam = religion of mental problems
Jay Boo says
Even if he was a Muslim with mental problems, the dialog that makes up the sense of entitlement was already in place.
Muslims despise and exploit weakness.
Jay Boo says
Better not let anyone with mental problems burn a Koran.
That might offend Muslims.
Bradamante says
So now will millions of Catholics take to the streets and start burning down Muslim businesses, besieging Tunisian embassies, and generally acting psycho? No, of course not.
Myxlplik says
An excellent point, Bradamante.
You can add to that abducting Muslims and murdering them as collective punishment for this crime to your list of juxtaposition.
Most people wont notice though, especially on the left.
AnneM says
We are demonic in this case.
zulu says
Thousands of Christians flee Islamic militants pulling down church crosses in Iraq after their biggest town is overrun by ISIS
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718918/Thousands-Christians-flee-Islamic-militants-pulling-church-crosses-Iraq-biggest-town-overrun-ISIS.html#ixzz39j6wywKr
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Beagle says
Or what you pointed out. I should read the comments first I guess.
mariam rove says
“France: Muslim smashes up historic church, media dismisses it as person with ‘mental problems,…
For a change I have to agree with this. Anyone who beilves in Islam does have a mental problem…m
Champ says
Anyone who beilves in Islam does have a mental problem…m
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So true, Mariam!
Beagle says
Oddly enough, the entire military of the nascent Islamic State suffers from the
exact same mental problem. Hope it’s not contagious.
CogitoErgoSum says
The spore of contagion is carried by every single follower of the Quran. In many cases the disease may start off mildly enough at first but given enough time it always turns malignant….. and if allowed to spread unchecked it will eventually destory all of humanity.
Tradewinds says
The “mental problem” is Islam.
Champ says
This senseless crime is so sad and heartbreaking …but that’s what evil islam brings humanity, nothing but sadness, heartaches and crimes against humanity. And there’s no love and joy within islam, either. At least none that I can see–zero!
islamisdeath says
Now that another ethnic group, the Yildiz’s, are being massacred the obamination is considering taking action. You can kill Jews and Christians and destroy our churches and temples to your hearts content. Sorry about the Yildiz but at least some Christians might benefit.
islamisdeath says
If this were a mosque and not a church the perp would be villified and tried for a “hate” crime but the muzzie gets away scot free. He suffers from the mental illness of islam.
bernie says
Years ago in a Muslim country (I think it was Pakistan), a teenage boy and his uncle (who were of Christian faith) were accused of spray-painting blasphemous graffiti on the side of a mosque. The accusers washed off the evidence (if there even had been real graffiti in the first place) because it had allegedly been “too offensive.”
I don’t know what happened to the boy and his uncle, whether they were executed, or lynched by a mob, or forced to flee the country, or what. When some people (both foreign and Pakistani) pointed out how it was wrong to have erased the alleged evidence, one of the accusers said, “Why sgould we br ‘goody-goodies’ about this?”
So by his logic, should this mindless, idiotic church-vandaliser by executed by French Catholics, lest they be seen as “goody-goodies”? I also strongly suspect that the graffiti accusations in the Pakistani case were bullshit, because the blasphemy laws there are constantly used to falsely accuse people who are non-Muslim, or to deal with financial or land disputes, or personal grudges.
pongidae rex says
Karma. Soon opening in a place near you.
Descendantofacrusader says
Ephesians 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
This is not about a man with mere “mental problems”, it is much more about a man processed by the spiritual darkness of Islam.
Richie says
The leftist media can’t even find the interest to report on the Muslim mass killings of Christians in Egypt and Iraq, so of course they will downplay this example of Islamic bigotry towards Christians
Tom Syseskey says
Such destruction done “with exceptional force,” a sign of dibolical possession”: Was the perp possessed by a devil of his diabolical religion?
John C. Barile says
That is a valid question.
Kathy Brown says
This is the exact thing I wondered too, Tom. Since I don’t doubt that the ‘god’ of Muslims is Satan, I’m quite sure he assists them with all their diabolism.
dumbledoresarmy says
I wondered that, also, when looking at the pictures.
Just one man did *that*?? some of those objects were *heavy*.
What tools was he using?
It looks like a tornado has been through.
French jihadwatchers and other European jihadwatchers may like to write letters of support to the priest and congregation/s of the affected churches, and ask whether the church is accepting donations to assist with cleanup and repairs.
Lord Saint Fire says
I’m sure he’ll only have minimal charges for this. There’s no excuse for this behavior.
John C. Barile says
That is extensive damage to property, and substantial loss. This is surely a serious criminal matter.
Louise from Canada says
…”mentally unbalanced individual” That is what they ALL are. Now what do we do? Do we have to wait until we are all massacred? Please Lord Jesus, come come soon because the demons are ALL coming out of Hell. YOU are the ONLY ONE that could save us.
Yes Tom, it is a sign of diabolic possession because it is a diabolical “religion”.
Angemon says
Well, he IS a muslim…
sound awake says
liberalism is a mental disorder
leftists the world over are closely-aligned with the worst people the muslim has to offer
muslims are crazy
QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRATUM
dumbledoresarmy says
For France, and for the church in France.
Kathy Brown says
Merci mille fois pour celle-ci! Notre bien aime St. Jean d’Arc!
Nous avons besoin de sa courage aujourd’hui-elle disait la verite sans peur-voila pourquoi elle est une des patronesses de France.
gravenimage says
France: Muslim smashes up historic church, media dismisses him as person with “mental problems”
………………………………….
Is that so? I suppose that the pious Muslims of ISIS desecrating churches in the new “Caliphate” in order to turn them into mosques must be suffering from “mental problems”. as well…sarc/off
Laura says
Im an athiest. I was raised christian and found that religious people mean well but their love is misplaced. All religions are founded in love, in devotion to a higher state. If your religion makes you strive for acceptance and happiness and love then its practice is beneficial and positive. If however it is separating you from your human brothers and sisters, driving a line between neighbors then i see no place for it and the egotistical promises it provides. That is why i no longer follow a religion, because i did not feel it in my heart that it was improving my life or those around me and i never bought into the servitude of it all. Serve your neighbors. This is not the case for everyone so i strongly believe in freedom of religion. But just reading through posts like this, i should not do it. it reinforces the negativity i felt in my community. the self doubt and self hate that translated into hating other people and the vilification that justifies such hate of ‘we have heaven, you will not’
I believed heaven was to be sort on earth with your fellow man, whats the use of reaching a heaven in any kind of afterlife when your life on earth is full of hate and distrust and stereotypical fear. Whats the point if all my non-christian friends wont be there. If i were to reach a heaven and find so many of my friends and family not there, what kind of christian would i have been if i stayed in heaven, happy and content while those i loved toiled in pain? Today difference means fear, thats why religion has no place in my life. Only though education can i reach happiness because it allows me to shed all the layers of hate, all of the ego we cling to so desperately.
That man did not represent islam. nor, i severely hope, do those posting hateful messages represent christianity. You represent the hate and misplaced dissatisfaction that has taken over the world.
You will argue but they want to kill us, they do not, their extremists are no different to yours. You may argue their religion has brought so much pain and anger, so has yours. You may argue that having that faith correlates to them being bad people because of the bad things done in its name, people say the same about your religion. People are people, and when we can celebrate that and support each other despite religious belief, i believe we will experience heaven. religion is a tool that can be used positively and negatively. and everyone quoting others belief systems, enforcing their own superiority and condemning the crimes as an act of their god, you are fueling the fire that you would call satan. A lot of these mislead people are not taught their true religion, the true beauty of it, that is the nature zealotism. And i believe just as many christians suffer from it as muslims.
Angemon says
Laura posted:
“All religions are founded in love, in devotion to a higher state.
[…]
That man did not represent islam.
[…]
You will argue but they want to kill us, they do not, their extremists are no different to yours. You may argue their religion has brought so much pain and anger, so has yours.”
Laura, with all due respect, you’re part of the problem. “All religions are founded in love”? Exactly what do you know about islam? Unlike christianity, which teaches to love thy neighbour, islam preaches “love your fellow muslim and hate the non-muslims”.
“That man did not represent islam”? I take it you’re an expert on islam? You studied it and you know what it stands for or not, and who stands for it, or not?
“You will argue but they want to kill us, they do not”
Quran 9:5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Quran 9:14
Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people
Quran 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
I could go on and on, but I believe I made my point across.
“Their extremists are no different to yours”. You got to be f***ing kidding me. When was the last time a christian “extremist” beheaded someone on camera while claiming the Bible commanded him to do so and shouting “Jesus Christ is Greater!”? When was the last time a Hindu “extremist” flew an airplane into a building and Hindus danced in the streets to celebrate the deaths of non-Hindus? When was the last time a Buddhist strapped on an explosive vest and blew himself up in a bus filled with non-Buddhists shouting “Buddha is greater”?
“A lot of these mislead people are not taught their true religion”. That’s probably the reason most muslims either remain muslims or are not out there blowing themselves up to kill non-muslims, because they don’t know their religion enough to know what it says about non-muslims.
Your PC false equivalence is the cancer that’s killing the West.
Kathy Brown says
Angemon: You said it all.
Laura, you’re ignorant on this matter.
Listen to Ange; then do your own research. You obviously need to.
You know nothing of Islam. You sound like a college kid fresh from a course in ‘Global Religion’ where your idiot ‘professor’ castigates Judaism and Christianity and praises Islam. In other words, you’re fresh from la-la land.
For God’s sake, EDUCATE YOURSELF.
Laura says
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/06/370149/end-violence-against-muslims-dalai-lama/
the buddhists arnt free from all this. im trying to push the idea home that religion is the people. no religion is exempt from corruption and i am met with nothing but NO, THEIR ALL HORRIBLE, THE WORLD IS A SCARY, 2 DIMENSIONAL BLACK AND WHITE PLACE AND ONLY THOSE WHO IDENTIFY CLOSELY WITH ME MAKE ANY SENSE. im not denying whats going on, im trying to suggest the hate and blame (which is apparently christianity now) is going to solve nothing, its only served to fuel the fire for all of human history, but its cool, im the ignorant one, im sure this time it will make a difference for the better….
Laura says
laura’s education – Isa ibn Maryam, thats jesus, and although they dont believe he came from god direct – “Mary receives significant admiration from Muslims. She is said by the Prophet Muhammad to be the best woman God created. She is free of sin as the mother of Jesus” they learn from his teachings just as you do.
if their scriptures promote violence against non-believers and people act on that, how are they different than those acting on the atrocities in the old testament. Abraham, father of christianity islam AND judaism, willing to slaughter his son in the name of the father. dont use scripture to deny a people. all our beliefs came from the same, screwy stories of pain and destruction in service to a higher power. when we unite to divide, we just divide.
just found the best page,
“Slay Them” – If They Attack You First
For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: “slay them wherever you catch them” (Qur’an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are “they” that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter, But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful, If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression” (2:190-193).
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back — but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.
“Fight the Pagans” – If They Break Treaties
A similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 — which in its snipped, out of context version could read: “fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war).” Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.
This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them, (as quoted above).
thankgod someone can say it better than me. does any of this make sense? sound familiar?
Angemon says
Laura posted:
“laura’s education – Isa ibn Maryam, thats jesus, and although they dont believe he came from god direct – “Mary receives significant admiration from Muslims. She is said by the Prophet Muhammad to be the best woman God created. She is free of sin as the mother of Jesus” they learn from his teachings just as you do.”
Well, well, well, it seems “Laura” is not exactly the dopey PC MC brainwashed zombie she tried to pass as. Notice how she pulls a play from the dawah handbook – “oh, we muslims consider Isa as a prophet too”. The thing here is that muslims don’t believe Jesus was the son of God, that he died on the cross and that he came back to life, like the christians do. In fact, that believe is the basis of Christianity. According to muslims, Isa – the islamic bastardization of Jesus – is also supposed to have preached the same as muhammad but christians have perverted his message into the christianity we know today. Still want to go the “muslims also believe in Jesus” route, Laura?
“if their scriptures promote violence against non-believers and people act on that, how are they different than those acting on the atrocities in the old testament.”
They’re different in the sense that violence in the OT is descriptive while in the quran and hadith is mandatory for muslims to attack non-muslims.
“just found the best page,
“Slay Them” – If They Attack You First”
Erm, where does that leave Spain, France and Italy, lands which the muslims attacked and from where they were driven out by the native populations? Who attacked first in there? Muslims are vouching to “take back” Spain, France and Italy, is that “self-defense” or a “defensive war”?
““Fight the Pagans” – If They Break Treaties”
Except that it was the muslims who first broke the treaty. In fact, quran 9:1 makes it quite clear that all treaties with non-muslims are to be considered null and void as soon as the circumstances allow for it:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
“thankgod someone can say it better than me. does any of this make sense? sound familiar?”
quran 9:28-29
O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Now, quran 9:28-29 makes no mention of self defense or breaking of treaties. It just says “look guys, stop letting non-muslim coming into mecca because they are filthy. I know that religious pilgrimage is a big source of income to you guys, but allah told me we can attack non-muslims and take their stuff to make up for it”.
Laura says
i thought about quoting the bible to you and how disgusting its passages are, but then i would be you, ignorant to the fact that religion is not just a book, it is what the people make it. Just like the crusades and every other holy war, the justification is always found in their own religion, i could probably justify anything with the bible, its all perspective. i find it deplorable that im preaching all the things that christianity is supposed to instill yet im met with hostility and ignorance.
If you taught only the hateful things of the bible to a child and that child committed heinous crimes, does that void the religion?
people have been killing each other over religion since religion came into being. why am i the ignorant one when you cant see that when history repeats itself, its only the insane who cannot learn from it. im not fighting for islam, i want religious freedom, and the main reason i chose to post today was that it sickens me those who spred this uneducated hate and call themselves christian.
so instead of taking from the old testimate ill remind you of the new if thats how you play it.
“But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.”
“All the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and so on, are summed up in this single command: You must love your neighbor as yourself.”
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”
“But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
im sorry but what religion are you all following? i expect egotistical atheists to hate how a religion can screw whole populations, their arguments do tend to be better thought out, but it sickens me that christianity doesnt reflect any of that anymore. at all. i didnt lose my faith, i lost my faith in the institutions of religion. now i believe in men. i may seem ignorant, i may seem too optimistic, i may seem all the things that a good christian should be yet it took separating myself from religion to achieve this. isnt that the oposite of what it should do? id appreicate it if anyone has an intelligent response besides, go read more (i assume you mean hateful propaganda) as that was my initial instruction. maybe i should have said go talk to people more. but truely, i want to understand how you can call yourselves christian, let alone religious.
people are brutal. people are cruel. are you going to let them win? the hideous acts i keep seeing are no different from the enormously tragic history of humans screwing each other over, why is this new threat so much worse? i ask you to read a little more into it, youd find that a lot of muslims would have strong family values like your own, a deep sense of personal responsibility and respect.
this is my ignorance because i cant remeber which sect or populous practised/felt this way but i saw footage of an american soldier who was relaying a story about the local peoples, a mans son had been killed in the fire-fight, a bystander, and he held his son in his arms and sung a lament, carrying him through the streets, family and friends behind. there was no anger, there was no hate or seeking retribution. he was not distracted by these things and simply felt for his boy. to outsiders this seems a heartless and cold response to his sons death, but he has grown up knowing that revenge only makes a victim out of yourself. you are not a victim until you chose to seek vengeance on those who have crossed you.
Kathy Brown says
Laura, besides doing some research you need to learn to spell. How old are you?
Newsflash: All religions are not equal.
Give me an example of ANY violence, in the last 50 yrs., comparable to what the Muslims are doing. No Laura: NOT ‘The Crusades’ (they were defensive v. Islam tho’ I’m sure you don’t know that). NOT ‘The Inquisition’ (that was 500 years ago).
Try to concentrate and just respond to these simple questions.
Also: You’re a big feminist aren’t you? Quite on fire with the necessity of eradicating ‘sexism’ v. women? Tell me: What do you think of FGM which is LAW under Sharia? How about the status of women under-and I do mean ‘under’-Islam? Your thoughts?
Angemon says
Laura posted:
“i thought about quoting the bible to you and how disgusting its passages are”
Are all the passages in the bible disgusting? In any case, I’m agnostic/atheist: with what I know today I don’t believe that there’s a God but I reserve the right to change my mind if evidence to the contrary comes along. Not that it matters, one only has to look at the average country with a Christian tradition and the average country with islamic tradition to see the differences between the judaic-christian philosophies andislamic philosophies on social, cultural and scientifically speaking. You can quote the bible all you want, that is not going to change anything.
“Just like the crusades and every other holy war”
Erm, what? Do you even know what caused the crusades? It certainly weren’t the christians who said “hey guys, let’s get on our horses and steal from them arabs because they’re not christian”. No, the crusades were a delayed, limited reaction to over 400 years of islamic aggression against christian lands. If you knew European history you’d know that the number of battles between jews/christians and muslims were fought in European soil is much larger than than in African/Middle Eastern soil. That’s because muslims invaded Europe the same way they invaded Christian/Jewish civilizations in the Middle East and Africa.
“i find it deplorable that im preaching all the things that christianity is supposed to instill”
Christianity, as far as I know, never taught political correctness or that all religions are as valid as christianity. In fact, christianity teaches secularity – render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. Now, do you have some sort of degree that allows you to understand and teach christianity? Are you a member of the clergy? If not, your claim that you’re preaching what christianity is supposed to instill is laughable at best and dishonesty at worst.
“If you taught only the hateful things of the bible to a child and that child committed heinous crimes, does that void the religion?”
This is got to be the stupidest thing you posted so far. So you want to argue that a religion is void because someone is not taught the full religion?
“why am i the ignorant one”
Because you’re trying to argue that islam is no more violent than christianity. That proves that you know nothing. You don’t know what christianity preaches, you don’t know what islam preaches and you’re talking out of your ass. Your ego is writing checks your logic can’t cash. Islam is a religion that teaches a duality between muslims (the best of all people, according to quran 3:110) and non-muslims (the worse of creatures, according to quran 98:6). If you can’t bring yourself up to admit that then you have no business comparing islam with any other given religion.
“im not fighting for islam, i want religious freedom”
Which you don’t get under islam. And no one here is infringing on someone else’s religion freedom, so…
“he main reason i chose to post today was that it sickens me those who spred this uneducated hate and call themselves christian.”
First of all, there are plenty of atheists/agnostics/nonchristians here. So i guess you don’t have any problems with them posting whatever they choose to post, right? Second, “uneducated hate”? Really? You’re saying that islam is pretty much the same as christianity and you claim others are “uneducated” and posting “hate”? Whoa, you’re full of it.
“ask you to read a little more into it, youd find that a lot of muslims would have strong family values like your own”
And that’s supposed to tell us what regarding the concepts of jihad and warfare against non-muslims and of how they regard them?
Face it kid, you know nothing about religion in general or islam in particular. Your sappy “we can’t all get along? must be because of christian hate of non-christians” speech may win you points in your PC MC circle-jerk of dopey zombies but you have nothing on those who actually know what they’re talking about. Either learn about islam or stop making ignorant posts.
Laura says
your simple questions are painfully simple. why is it that only recent history is relevant? its interesting you give that timeframe also, have you researched what it was like to be muslim 50 years ago? it was a hell of a lot better to be a woman then, did you know the burka is not in the quran? it was a lot closer to the american lifestyle than you realise.
but none of this is relevant. i guess what ive been trying to say has slipped by completely unnoticed. And yes i cant spell, am i going to hell? is that really important to this discussion? is my age?
id direct you to read the post above explaining a lot of the hateful listing in the qur’an and how they are misspoken and mislead people to the true texts. ITS NOT THE RELIGION! its the people, its the peoples identity, its the people needs and their suffering that cumulates into horrifying acts such as those that have been committed by muslims. people are not born with a larger capacity to do either good or evil, it is all learnt. just as their are good christians and bad christians, there are good muslims and bad muslims. if you all wish to keep using up your energy hating on an entire religion of people expecting positive results, go for it, but dont call yourself christian, or reflective or enlightened in any way. dont expect change. know that your adding to the problem you hate so much and that it will only get worse because of your hate. as soon as you start blaming the religion you take away the responsibility of the people, you take away discussion and resolve.
kathy brown, you failed to mention how one can hold these views and still be christian?
all religions are equal, people make them what they will. If we could erradicate all of the muslim faith tomorrow, all the kids, all the woman, and the men, all the decent people who have practised it for centuries, their ancestors who were peaceful, lets void all of that history because obviously its the RELIGION thats corrupt, not the people. it wouldnt get rid of the problem, because problems like these dont stem from just a religion, they are created though global politics, social issues, an unfathomable amount of information and input that to say its their religion is ignorant and circular
Angemon says
Dawah artist Laura posted:
“ have you researched what it was like to be muslim 50 years ago? it was a hell of a lot better to be a woman then, did you know the burka is not in the quran? it was a lot closer to the american lifestyle than you realise.”
But then islam came…
“id direct you to read the post above explaining a lot of the hateful listing in the qur’an and how they are misspoken and mislead people to the true texts.”
Here’s a tought: why don’t you take a plane, fly to Saudi Arabia – the birth place of islam – and explain them how they’re getting islam all wrong?
“ts the people needs and their suffering that cumulates into horrifying acts such as those that have been committed by muslims”
Oh please, the idea that poverty or persecution causes jihad has long been debunked. Why aren’t haitians or south americans flying planes into buildings? Why aren’t christians being killed by muslims because of religious reasons blowing themselves up and shouting “Jesus Christ is Greater”? If you were right then favelas in Brasil should be the mecca of suicide bombers, as opposed to the actual mecca of suicide bombers, which is Mecca.
“just as their are good christians and bad christians, there are good muslims and bad muslims”
A good christian follows the law of the land or, if he doesn’t like it, moves away. A good muslims follows the law of the land if it’s sharia. If it isn’t then he strives to impose it.
“but dont call yourself christian”
Once again, do you have some sort of credential that allows you to pass judgment on who can call themselves christian or not?
“all religions are equal, people make them what they will.”
Nope. That’s ignorant talk.
“obviously its the RELIGION thats corrupt, not the people.”
Didn’t you say that all religions are the same and can be “twisted” to represent anything? Why the change of heart?
“problems like these dont stem from just a religion, they are created though global politics, social issues, an unfathomable amount of information and input that to say its their religion is ignorant and circular”
Once again: the idea that poverty or persecution causes jihad has long been debunked. Why aren’t haitians or south americans flying planes into buildings? Why aren’t christians being killed by muslims because of religious reasons blowing themselves up and shouting “Jesus Christ is Greater”? If you were right then favelas in Brasil should be the mecca of suicide bombers, as opposed to the actual mecca of suicide bombers, which is Mecca.
gravenimage says
Laura wrote:
All religions are founded in love, in devotion to a higher state.
………………………………
This is not true. Was the religion of the Aztecs “founded in love”? Or the the religion of Molloch?
Have you ever read the Qur’an and Hadith? If you had, you could not say this about Islam with a straight face.
More:
That man did not represent islam.
………………………………
Actually, pious Muslims have been blowing up, burning, and otherwise destroying churches in Egypt, in Nigeria, in Iraq, in Syria, and in the new “Caliphate”—as well as in the West.
Perhaps you should be telling *Muslims* that this “does not represent Islam”.
More:
…nor, i severely hope, do those posting hateful messages represent christianity. You represent the hate and misplaced dissatisfaction that has taken over the world.
………………………………
What witless moral equivalence—as though destroying a church and condemning that destruction were equally “hateful”.
More:
You will argue but they want to kill us, they do not, their extremists are no different to yours.
………………………………
Really? Muslims are waging a genocide against Christians in large swaths of Dar-al-Islam right now. Where are Christian ‘extremists’ doing the same?
More:
A lot of these mislead people are not taught their true religion, the true beauty of it…
………………………………
All too many Muslims, I’m afraid, are quite well versed in the savager nature of their creed.
And they are not just targeting Christians, but Jews, and Hindus, and Buddhists, and Sikhs—and also Agnostics and Atheists.
More:
…that is the nature zealotism. And i believe just as many christians suffer from it as muslims.
………………………………
Really? And where, exactly, are these Christians responsible for the same sort of violence we are seeing caused by Muslims in China, and Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and the Philippines, and Thailand, and Iraq, and Syria, and the Islamic State, and Nigeria, and Somalia, and Kenya, and in Jihad attacks on the West?
More:
im not denying whats going on, im trying to suggest the hate and blame (which is apparently christianity now) is going to solve nothing, its only served to fuel the fire for all of human history…
………………………………
Was “blaming” the Nazis for the Holocaust just “fueling the fire”?
What Laura is suggesting is that we should not only fail to oppose this evil lest we cause further violence from Muslims, but that we should forebear from so much as daring to *mention* it. *Ugh*.
More:
laura’s education – Isa ibn Maryam, thats jesus, and although they dont believe he came from god direct – “Mary receives significant admiration from Muslims. She is said by the Prophet Muhammad to be the best woman God created. She is free of sin as the mother of Jesus” they learn from his teachings just as you do.
………………………………
The Muslim “Jesus”—Isa—is nothing like the Christian Jesus. He is not a savior, nor is he a peacemaker. His primary purpose is in the “last days”, where his role is to *kill Christians*.
More:
if their scriptures promote violence against non-believers and people act on that, how are they different than those acting on the atrocities in the old testament…
………………………………
Even if this were so, Laura is urging us to ignore Muslim savagery that is threatening us *now* because of something Jews may have done…three thousand years ago. Good grief…
More:
just found the best page,
“Slay Them” – If They Attack You First
For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: “slay them wherever you catch them” (Qur’an 2:191).
………………………………
What utter rot. Laura added “if they attack you first” herself.
Then there is the infamous Sura of the Sword, Qur’an 9:5:
“And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.”
Is she going to find a way to bowdlerize that one, as well?
And she goes on to excuse the “Prophet’s” hideous wars of conquest, where he enslaved those who stood in his way.
Besides, we can see this savagery in action *right now*. Did Christians in the new “Caliphate” attack Muslims? Did Yazidis? Of course not—but they are being slaughtered and enslaved just the same.
More:
i thought about quoting the bible to you and how disgusting its passages are, but then i would be you, ignorant to the fact that religion is not just a book, it is what the people make it…
………………………………
It is indeed—and Muslims are slaughtering people all over the world right now. But then, Laura won’t address that…
More, after quoting various passages from the Bible about loving your neighbors:
im sorry but what religion are you all following? i expect egotistical atheists to hate how a religion can screw whole populations, their arguments do tend to be better thought out, but it sickens me that christianity doesnt reflect any of that anymore…
………………………………
Laura is claiming that if Christians oppose the savagery of Islam—the mass-killings, the oppression of women, the virulent antisemtism, the targeting of Infidels, of apostates, of gays and lesbians, that they are—somehow—betraying their own faith.
*Nothing* could be further from the truth.
Moreover, it is not just Christians here who stand against the horror of Jihad, but Jews, and Hindus, and Wiccans, and Agnostics, and Atheists.
More:
people are brutal. people are cruel. are you going to let them win?
………………………………
And her idea is that if we dare name this bloody viciousness for what it is, that we “let them win”—as though ignoring this savagery will somehow do anything but embolden them more.
More:
….why is this new threat so much worse?
………………………………
Would she have suggested that we do nothing to oppose Fascism, because Attila the Hun was also a threat?
You face the threats of your own time. I have a background in history—that means I learn from it, not that my view is so Olympian that I am blind to what we face *now*.,
More:
i ask you to read a little more into it, youd find that a lot of muslims would have strong family values like your own, a deep sense of personal responsibility and respect…
………………………………
Those “family values” include pedophilia, forced marriage, wife beating, polygamy, and “Honor Killing”. Should we “respect” that? *Ugh*.
More:
ITS NOT THE RELIGION! its the people, its the peoples identity, its the people needs and their suffering that cumulates into horrifying acts such as those that have been committed by muslims.
………………………………
More apologia—that Muslims *have to* commit genocide and stone women to death—because of “poverty”, or because Israel dares to exist. What crap.
More:
…people are not born with a larger capacity to do either good or evil, it is all learnt.
………………………………
That’s the whole point—and if what these people are leaning is the savagery of Islam, then we will see *exactly* the sort of violence we are seeing from Muslims all over the world right now.
More:
all religions are equal, people make them what they will…
………………………………
Are all ideologies equal? Is there no difference between Jeffersonian democracy and Nazi Fascism?
More:
If we could erradicate all of the muslim faith tomorrow, all the kids, all the woman, and the men, all the decent people who have practised it for centuries
………………………………
The usual—if anyone dares mention the savagery of Islam, they are—ludicrously—accused of contemplating genocide.
But this is nothing but *projection*—it is Muslims themselves who are committing genocide, and are doing so in the name of Islam.
In the end, Laura’s copious verbiage, full of false moral equivalence and the chiding of Christians for standing against evil, is just meant to give up and roll over for violent Jihad. *Ugh*.
Good posts from Angemom, Mirren, and Kathy Brown.
Kathy Brown says
Graven Image: What a post. I’m just thrilled to be here amongst people so educated and intellectual-and I’m flattered to be complimented by GI.
You cover the most important point of all-that Christianity does not decree passivity and submission. The latter is Islam!
And if anyone wants to contrast Is-Slime and Christianity/Judaism? I can pluck something from tonight’s news. We learn, to our sadness, that the great talent Robin Williams killed himself today. And the airwaves are full of the…waste of that; the grief over that; the shock. Because LIFE is precious in these religions-and suicide is so so horrible.
But to the Mu-Slimes? Why: That’s the pinnacle of one’s striving; the apogee. And no greater example of the innate evil of Islam can be given, that even MOTHERS in that twisted ‘faith’, WANT the death of their own child!
Laura says
to more simply answer your simple question
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/we-re-at-war-and-we-have-been-since-1776/
theres a nice long list of americas wartime history and it goes back past 50 years. id argue their history is worse ten fold, but again, thats a matter of opinion, im not commenting to compete with you.
“..since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence.”
“To put this into greater perspective, Iran has not invaded a country since 1795, which was 216 years ago.”
is that a good example of violence?
Angemon says
The dawah artist posted:
“to more simply answer your simple question
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/we-re-at-war-and-we-have-been-since-1776/
theres a nice long list of americas wartime history and it goes back past 50 years. id argue their history is worse ten fold, but again, thats a matter of opinion, im not commenting to compete with you.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIeG_0WfaJw
That’s a map of the battles between Europeans and muslims since the (alleged) death of muhammad in 632. Notice the huge majority of them took place in christian lands, and that’s not the full history of islamic agression since it’s focused on the classic christian world (europe and noth africa) alone, leaving out sub-saharan Africa and Asia.
You’re quoting from loonwatch, so here’s a nice description of your source:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/19/1056337/-How-and-Why-Loonwatch-com-is-a-Terrorist-Spin-Control-Network
“Loonwatch unconditionally attacks criticism of Islam but they refuse to criticize the many, many Islamic clerics and terrorists who are hurting people in the name of Islam. Should a person have something to say publicly questioning the funneling of monies from Islamic charities to Islamic terrorist networks, Loonwatch is there to call them a “Loon” for even raising the question.”
More:
“In fact, Loonwatch.com credited Robert Spencer of JihadWatch.com with more or less causing Anders Breivik to commit mass murder and writing a psychotic manifesto which included many ramblings about Islam taking over Europe. Although there are numerous articles from experts who say that Breivik clearly had plans to kill before JihadWatch even existed, the blame goes to Spencer just the same. But this is of course a double standard. Loonwatch will not tolerate anyone connecting the dots between Islamic terrorism and violent passages in the Koran and Hadiths commanding Islamic violence.”
And more:
“And if you have anything critical to say about radical Islam, anything critical at all, prepare to be branded a “Loon” and have your name and photograph put out on the street when you become the next “Loon at Large”. Welcome to the new Islamic McCarthyism in America.”
““..since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence.”
“To put this into greater perspective, Iran has not invaded a country since 1795, which was 216 years ago.”
is that a good example of violence?”
Now, what is it that the history of America’s wars tells us about islam and jihad? Surely you’re not trying to pull a tu quoque, are you?
Kathy Brown says
Ah yes: ‘LoonWatch’…
Keep pretending Islam’s a nice, sweet ‘Religion of Peace’ Laura. I wish you well.
Laura says
im sorry, does the source negate hundreds of years of human history? i can see you are far too important to lower yourself to reason, maybe i should spell some more words wrong so you can rationalise your opinions.
still waiting on that reply Kathy. dismissing a source (i didnt really look hard, its the first article that popped up. mind you those facts are no less because of where i got them, i didnt quote any opinionated bullshit from that site, just the cold hard facts of war) and instead of any real dialogue or discussion, you tell me i love islam in a patronizing way. not taking into account anything ive written about including how i do not put one religion above another, i learnt so much from christianity but i had to distance myself from it because of people like you. if i were born muslim i would probably be the same way.
i answered your question, you refuse to invest your time in mine. how do you relate to being christian and still practise so much ignorant, uneducated hate?
Laura says
or any hate, i thought the nature of, the one true teaching to follow is love thy neighbor, it doesnt say love thy neighbor sometimes, or love thy neighbor when its easy or love thy neighbor as long as they have loved you first. like i said, keep your hate, but explain to me how this is christian? you cannot see the irony in hating a religion only makes you negate your own?
Mirren10 says
You’re just another mohammedan in a mask, ineptly trying your hand at a bit of dawah, or at best, a wilfully blind PC/MC useful idiot.
We have had many such here, and you all spout the same illogical rubbish.
I have no intention of parsing all your nonsense, but really, what you are saying can be boiled down into four basic leftist memes.
One, all those who claim to be Christians are wicked for refusing to roll over and present their necks to jihad. Because Christianity teaches ”turn the other cheek”. Anyone who refuses to ignore what mohammedans do in the name of their vile ‘religion’ is a ‘hater’.
Two, all religions are equal, and although all the evidence points otherwise, there is nothing in the koran that teaches hatred of the unbelievers. That the koran reveres Jesus Christ is pernicious rubbish. The koran refers to Christ as Isa, who in the last days, will return to ”break all the crosses, and kill all the pigs” (Jews, and all unbelievers). The bloody Isa of the Koran has nothing in common with the Christ of the New Testament.
Three, jihad is caused by poverty, alienation, blah, blah blah. What utter tripe. As Angemon pointed out, the majority of jihadists, suicide murderers ect are in fact middle class, well off people. Bin Laden was worth *millions*. The 7/7 bomber murderers were all well educated, and earned good salaries. Ditto the Underwear bomber, etc etc.
Fourthly, it doesn’t matter that mohammedans are murdering, beheading, destroying, torturing and raping, all over the world, **now**, because a) the Bible has horrible verses in it, and b) Christianity, five hundred years ago, was just as bad.
The fact that you quote from loonwatch, which has never met a terrorist, jihadist, it doesn’t like, really says it all.
At best, you’re a fool; at worst, you’re a mohammedan in a mask. Either way, we’re not buying your crap. Go away.
.
Kathy Brown says
Angiemon, Mirren: Masterful! Just masterful!
‘Dopey zombies’, forsooth? Now I wish I’d posted that! And the ‘4 memes’-talk about succinct…
I’d differ with only one statement, ‘go away’. Since I’m a lawyer who defends the 1st Amendment (for Laura’s sake, that’s freedom of speech/assembly/religion), I don’t ask Laura to ‘go away’. Thanks to our heroic Military, -we-the-people are FREE to post even ignorance. But of course: Laura would never praise our troops for this. Because in her groupthink, ‘war is bad!’. And the Military is a bunch of unqualified cretins at best, or incipient serial killers at worst.
Oh-and of COURSE ‘LoonWatch’ is ‘one of the first’ websites which ‘popped up’! Laura’s also ignorant of the fact that both Google and Yahoo have been greatly criticized for their far-left bent, and you have to SEARCH for other than that garbage.
Now isn’t it time for Laura to call us all ‘Islamophobes’ and ‘racists’?
Puhleeze.
Mirren10 says
Hi, Kathy, thank you for your kind words.
There is, actually, a *fifth* meme which I forgot.
Viz: Anyone who *fights back * against mohammedan supremacists, is, ipso facto, the *instigator*, and the mohammedan murderers are the *victims*.
Buddhists fighting back against mohammedan attackers in
Myanmar are the instigators.
China fighting back against mohammedan murderers are the instigators.
Christians, or any other faith, any where, who dare to defend themselves against mohammedan attacks, are the instigators.
Israelis daring to defend themselves against mohammedan rocket attacks, are the instigators, and are also neo-nazis who are deliberately targetting innocent civilians.
At any time, any where, *any one * who dares to fight back, and defend themselves against mohammedan murderers; *they * are always the instigators.
mohammedans, no matter what they do to others, are *always the victims* , because they are always fighting against oppression, alienation, marginalisation, and economic hardship, inflicted by everyone they ever come in contact with. Poor things. sarc/off.
Jackbo Godfrey says
“De Nile” aint a river in Egypt. It is a river in France!!!
Deny, deny, deny. Stick head in sand long enough and problem will go away.
All these “violent extremists” with mental problems. What is their neurosis???
Duh!