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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

To end “discrimination,” Aceh to impose Sharia on non-Muslims as well as Muslims

Sep 22, 2014 9:05 am By Robert Spencer

Personil Satuan polisi Pamong Praja (Satpol PP) wanita Pemerintah Kota Banda Aceh saat mengawal dakwah umum jumatan di Banda Aceh, Jumat (19/9).We are constantly told by Sharia advocates in the U.S. — those who fight to kill anti-Sharia laws in various states — that Sharia applies only to Muslims, and only to their personal religious observance, such that restricting it would be to interfere with their First Amendment rights. The political and supremacist aspects of Sharia are conveniently left out of such presentations. But here is what actually happens in areas where Sharia is actually implemented: non-Muslims are subjugated and oppressed. Defenders of anti-Sharia laws should make use of stories like these to fight against attempts by Hamas-linked CAIR and its allied Islamic supremacist and Leftist groups to destroy anti-Sharia initiatives.

“Coming Soon in Aceh: Shariah Law for Non-Muslims,” by Nurdin Hasan, Jakarta Globe, September 22, 2014 (thanks to Twostellas):

Banda Aceh. Citing the need to end discrimination, Aceh lawmakers plan to pass a bylaw this week that would impose a Shariah-based criminal code on Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with offenders facing lengthy caning sessions or jail terms for acts that are perfectly legal elsewhere in Indonesia.

Moharriadi Syafari, the secretary of Commission G of the Aceh Legislative Council (DPRA), which oversees the religious affairs, culture and tourism, said the council planned to pass the bylaw during its plenary meeting this week.

A draft of the local criminal code known as Qanun Jinayat obtained by the Jakarta Globe includes a clause that stipulates that a non-Muslim caught violating Shariah law would be given the option of being tried at the Shariah court or at a regular court, based on the national criminal code (KUHP).

However, if the act is considered a crime under Shariah but not under the KUHP, even non-Muslim violators would be tried based on the regulations stipulated in the Qanun Jinayat.

The maximum punishments under the Shariah-based code are 200 strokes of the cane, a fine worth the price of two kilograms of gold or 200 months in jail.

Convicted child rapists, for instance, would face a punishment of 150-200 strokes of the cane or a fine of 1.5 kilograms to two kilograms of gold or 150-200 months in prison.

Engaging in homosexual acts — which is not a crime under the KUHP — would fall in the category of unlawful sexual intercourse (zina), punishable by a maximum of 100 lashes, one kilogram of gold or 100 months in jail.

Buying or carrying an alcoholic beverage — also allowed elsewhere in the country — would result in at least 10 strokes of the cane or 10 months in prison, with a maximum fine worth 100 grams of gold.

The new Qanun Jinayat could affect at least 90,000 non-Muslims currently living in the province. The bylaw would go into effect one year after it is passed.

Moharriadi argued that the new bylaw was based on the Aceh special autonomy law of 2006.

“The clause in question in the Qanun Jinayat was taken in whole from Article 11 of the Law on Governing Aceh, so the article wasn’t made made in Aceh, it was made by the House of Representatives [in Jakarta],” he said.

The Prosperous Justice Party (PKS) politician explained that the bylaw had been discussed with all stakeholders, including the Home Ministry, Religious Affairs Ministry, Justice and Human Rights Ministry and the Supreme Court.

“Every time we deliberated the bylaw in Jakarta nobody was making a fuss about the clause because it has been clearly mentioned in the Law on Governing Aceh,” he said. “If we didn’t include the clause we would have broken the law.”

Moharriadi said the clause was meant to provide a sense of justice by treating all lawbreakers equally, regardless of their religion.

The head of the Aceh branch of Nahdlatul Ulama, Teungku Faisal Ali, also said the bylaw would not discriminate against non-Muslims because they would still be able to worship and conduct their religious activities as they wish.

“Please don’t portray this bylaw as if it mistreats non-Muslims, because the clause does not force Islamic Shariah on non-Muslims — they still can pray according to their religion,” Teungku said.

Right activists have expressed serious concerns about the proposed bylaw, saying it would lead to violations of civil rights.

Domidoyo Ratupenu, a priest and Aceh-based interfaith activist, said he had raised the issue with the DPRA, but that he felt ignored.

“Personally I reject all discriminative laws and bylaws that are based on primordialist beliefs and that fail to consider the nation’s sociopolitical reality,” Domidoyo said. “Indonesia is a pluralistic nation that has Pancasila as its ideology and appreciates diversity.”

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Comments

  1. Angemon says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 9:15 am

    The head of the Aceh branch of Nahdlatul Ulama, Teungku Faisal Ali, also said the bylaw would not discriminate against non-Muslims because they would still be able to worship and conduct their religious activities as they wish.

    And the Jim Crow laws did not discriminate against black people because black people were still allowed to be black…

  2. BaconPriest says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 9:23 am

    you will NOT take away my bacon

    • Cindy says

      Sep 23, 2014 at 6:05 am

      Maybe we should shoot sausage balls at the enemy!!!! Surround their camps with hogs and hams. Wrap their guns with bacon then they can’t touch them. We run in and bomb them all. One swift sweep.

    • paddy says

      Sep 23, 2014 at 12:11 pm

      and if i ever get a lashing I want the whipper to wear thigh length boots and fishnet stockings

      • Western Canadian says

        Sep 23, 2014 at 4:14 pm

        Don’t you mean ANOTHER lashing??

  3. Jaladhi says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 9:32 am

    Is there any difference between Islam and Hitlers Nazism?? None – Islam replaces Hitler by Mo/allah – both have the same criminal DNA!!

    • annblake says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 9:52 am

      Agreed.

    • john spielman says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 10:55 am

      and to think that I freely donated some of my hard earned money to Acheh province after the tsunami 2004

      • sidney penny says

        Sep 23, 2014 at 9:10 am

        So did the Australians, in the millions.

        To stay friends with their big near neighbor.

      • Scrappledaddy says

        Sep 23, 2014 at 11:35 am

        Well, here are people suckered in all the time. Did you give to the Sandy relief in the US?

    • SpiritOf1683 says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 1:46 pm

      Hitler’s Nazism was confined to Germany plus a handful of other countries with German minorities, and was defeated 12 years after taking power. There are far more Muslims than Nazis, they cover a greater part of the globe, including our own countries, and predates Nazism by over 1,300 years and is still very much around for the long term. So Islam is a far greater menace.

      • SpiritOf1683 says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm

        Oh and Austria as well.

      • BlueRaven says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 3:35 pm

        Hitler was Austrian and not German.

      • John C. Barile says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 4:30 pm

        Do remember that Nazism at its height held sway over most of Europe–from the Pyrenees to the North Cape, from the Channel Islands to the Volga.

        • John C. Barile says

          Sep 22, 2014 at 11:09 pm

          And–to elaborate–from Spitzbergen to the Black Sea, The Aegean Sea, Crete and much of the Mediterranean; North Africa from Tunis to El Alamein.

  4. Michael Copeland says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 9:48 am

    “Non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comply with Islamic rules.
    …they are forbidden … to ring church bells or display crosses”,
    Manual of Islamic Law o11.5(6), a free download at
    http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/resources/reliance2_complete.pdf.

  5. Steffen Larsen says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 9:49 am

    “…..the clause was meant to provide a sense of justice by treating all lawbreakers equally, regardless of their religion.”

    It seems not to have entered his head – likely it met an impenetrable barrier, cast in iron – that a sense of justice, regardless of the individual’s religion, is best achieved by applying Indonesian law, a law for everyone, by everyone.

    The rest of Indonesia have been given fair warning now.

  6. Jay Boo says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 10:48 am

    To end all personable accountability Muhammad invented a universal excuse and called it Islam.

    • Nicky says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 5:54 pm

      And yet there are so many who are claiming that Indonesia is such a wonderful moderate Muslim country having 200 million muslims. Another moderate Muslim country as proclaimed by so many is Malaysia and yet in Malaysia churches are not allowed to be built or they make it very difficult and they are also not allowed to look like churches. A lot of churches end up having to make do in factories. Buddhist temples are also not allowed to be taller than Islamic mosques. A lot of indigeneous people are forcibly converted to Islam and if they do not convert then basic ammenities like water and electricity are not supplied to their area. In the Sunrise AOK interview of Geert Wilders the interviewer Andrew O’Keefe tried to protray Geert Wilder as an extremist by insisting and showing what a fine example of a moderate Islamic country Indonesia and Malaysia is ? Well for sure these are not moderate Islamic countries if you care to look closer. They of course try to protray themselves as moderate.

      • umbra says

        Sep 23, 2014 at 5:16 am

        o’keefe is a fool. malaysia is not a moderate islamic country. It only appears so to fools. That applies to indonesia too. Non-believers who have lived in either country for any substantial period of time will know this.

  7. Ayatrollah says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 11:08 am

    Nonmuslims cannot have a church in aceh, but they can have sharia law “equally”.

    Aceh is a pious Muslim area and believers in Indonesia are proud that allah’s laws flourish there. (Actually only in big cities like Jakarta where the people are educated are other religions given a chance even though the federal court has said over and over again all religions are equal. Islam is more equal and that is correct in Indonesia.

  8. Ayatrollah says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 11:10 am

    The pact of Omar is the real law in Indonesia as far as church’s go. And Muslims think this is fair and equal.

    • Semeru says

      Sep 30, 2014 at 1:04 am

      Bullshit, there are churches in Aceh

      For example Hati Kudus Catholic church, Western Indonesian Protestant church, Methodist church and the Batak Protestant church.

      Banda Aceh’s population of 216,941 includes 1,571 Protestants (0.07 percent), 431 Catholics (0.19 percent),

  9. Nicky says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 6:04 pm

    And yet many have tried to portray Indonesia and Malaysia as moderate Islamic countries. I once saw an interview of Geert Wilders on Sunrise AOK by Andrew O’Keefe and he kept trying to paint Geert Wilders as an extremist and point to moderate Islamic countries like Indonesia and Malaysia as fine examples to prove his point . Both these countries appear and try to portray to the world that they are moderate but are actually not moderate. For instance in Malaysia churches are not allowed to be built and many churches have to end up in factories and they are not allowed to look like churches from the outside. Exisiting buddhist temples when allowed to be renovated are not allowed to be taller than the local mosques. Indigeneous peoples are many a times forced to convert to Islam and for those who do not convert then they will not get basic ammenities like water and electricity. Besides these there are a whole long list of other restrictions on non muslims if people care to look in detail at these so called moderate Islamic countries.

  10. No Fear says

    Sep 22, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    “Convicted child rapists, for instance, would face a punishment of 150-200 strokes of the cane or a fine of 1.5 kilograms to two kilograms of gold or 150-200 months in prison.”

    Yet 36% of marriages in Indonesia involves girls 16 years or younger.

    What a joke.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 7:01 pm

      It takes four male witnesses to establish rape but only a rape victim’s testimony to establish an unlawful sexual relationship (sex outside marriage). But remember: muhammad was a champion of women’s rights, and whoever says otherwise is a racist islamophobic bigot.

    • Brian Hoff says

      Sep 22, 2014 at 9:51 pm

      Than child raper will get 25 year pirson term in Indonesia compare to in america child raper sex offence get 6 year an they are out in 2 year due to good behaviour in pirson. Than 1.5 to 2.0 kilogram in gold fine is than very heavy fine to many people who live in Indonesia, it like than average person haveing to paid than 10 million dollar fine. Than it they hit you with all three you are in shitland. In Europe in the Dark Age and middle age it than criminal was able to show he or she was able to read the biddle the case was tranfer to than religious court where they got at the most than easy sentence compare to local or royal court. Europe fought hard to end this unequall justive.

      • Angemon says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 10:00 pm

        Brian Hoff posted:

        “Than child raper will get 25 year pirson term in Indonesia compare to in america child raper sex offence get 6 year an they are out in 2 year due to good behaviour in pirson.”

        Sharia law states that girls from the age of 9 onwards can be married. Ayatollah Khomeini married a 10-year-old girl when he was 28. Would he go to “pirson” for being a “child raper”? As for child molesters in america, if they can’t hide what they’re in for or aren’t kept separated from the general prison population they won’t last the two years you claim it takes to get out with good behaviour.

      • Foolster41 says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 10:02 pm

        “Europe fought hard to end this unequall justive.”

        Hahaha, What a hypocrite you are. You are advocating for Sharia law, which is the most unequal law in the world, that treats non-muslims and women as second-class citizens.

        Ugh. Your posts are both [sic] and sick.

        • Keith says

          Sep 23, 2014 at 1:06 pm

          You are wrong on that, muslim women are second class citizens, non muslims are third class citizens. This is based on the fact that although muslim women have less rights than muslim men they have more rights than any non mulsim male or female. I admit this is really a matter of semantics because at the end of the day muslim men have all the power.

      • Angemon says

        Sep 22, 2014 at 10:04 pm

        Also, 15 months = 12 and a half years, and 200 months = 16 years and 8 months. Not sure where you’re getting your 25 years of prison for child rapists but it’s not from Aceh’s sharia law.

      • Western Canadian says

        Sep 23, 2014 at 4:26 pm

        Thank you, my dear Brain Off, for posting yet another example of the type of never ending brain rot that is not the by-product, but the ONLY product, of a devout muslim (RTC) upbringing. You have again shared a gem of such utter illiterate drivel and swill that no other (even given all of eternity) could hope to approach!! Your willingness to serve as an example of not just everything that is wrong with islam (RTC), but to prove to all that EVERYTHING is wrong with islam (RTC) is appreciated beyond my humble skill with words to even begin to express.

        You utter and complete moron.

  11. R Cole says

    Sep 23, 2014 at 12:12 am

    That was a tad bit creepy that article – you want do some sort of ritual cleanse after reading it.

    Between the Indonesian and Malaysian purist Islamic factions – don’t realize how strange they appear – part no doubt – because of their distance from the Middle East – they overdo their Arab wannabe-ism.

    :: ::

    Stoning for adultery was passed in Aceh – but the law wasn’t ratified. [Imagine the joy they would have got!]

    Other crimes in Aceh – include playing cards – punishable by pubic flogging in mosque courtyard.

    And eating during Ramadan – could now be a punishable crime – as it is for Muslims – across the Islamic world.

    With the inclusion of non-Muslims under these draconian Sharia laws – we should see Aceh turn into Salem – and the witch hunt trials to begin in about one year’s time.

  12. Healer says

    Sep 23, 2014 at 11:04 pm

    Aceh was hammered by the Tsunami in 2004, The’ international community’ showered big bucks on survivors and this is the thanks they give back…a kick in the teeth of the “Infidels’…..

  13. Semeru says

    Sep 24, 2014 at 1:36 am

    Nickey said Above
    And yet there are so many who are claiming that Indonesia is such a wonderful moderate Muslim country having 200 million muslims.

    Oh yes , another person who forgets that “moderate” Indonesia fought a 29 year insurgency against against the islamist Aceh. Also that Aceh has had several jihads, holy wars (prang sabi) over the years including against the Dutch 1831.

    If Indonesia was not a wonderful moderate moslem country, and just another islamic shithole like many bigot here try to paint Indonesia, then there would not have been a 29 year war.

    There is something of a cultural and religious difference between Aceh and much of the rest of Indonesia. A more fanatical form of Islam than is mainstream in most of Indonesia is widely practiced in Aceh. The broadly secular policies of Indonesia are especially unpopular in Aceh where many resent the central government’s policy of promoting a unified ‘Indonesian culture’

    Part of the distinct Acehnese identity would stem from its status as the earliest Islamic region and the exemplar for the rest of the Malay archipelago.

    The islamist won, that is why they are now imposing sharia law. The islamist will only allow sharia, and reject secular law. “One law for all”, applies to islamists the same as moderate moslems and non moslems, the former choose sharia, the latter secular.

    Indonesia is still secularist even though it has a majority of moslems. Indonesia, like else where has a problem, the islamist are striving to islamize Indo. Thankfully the secularists have just won the recent election, beating a coalition of islamic and “nazi” parties.

    Interesting facts

    The leader and Hasan di Tiro and his fellow leaders in lived in Sweden, he even married a Belgian Jewish woman Who he met her while he was in America in 1960s

    Both human Rights Watch and Amnesty International sided with the Islamists against Indonesia.

    The only things that Indonesia and Aceh have in common is when it comes to Corruption, money, people welfare. Indonesia unlike a Aceh does not have hijab/veil regulations, Banning women from straddling motor cycles, does not resort to caning Islamic sharia law, banning of New Year Eve/non islamic day celebration and other BS.

    Most people who criticize Indonesia have never been here

    • Angemon says

      Sep 24, 2014 at 6:47 am

      “Oh yes , another person who forgets that “moderate” Indonesia fought a 29 year insurgency against against the islamist Aceh. Also that Aceh has had several jihads, holy wars (prang sabi) over the years including against the Dutch 1831.

      If Indonesia was not a wonderful moderate moslem country, and just another islamic shithole like many bigot here try to paint Indonesia, then there would not have been a 29 year war.”

      So, because something happened in the past we can’t criticize the present? That is the same logic that leads to saying “christians can’t criticize muslims murdering and raping infidels, remember the crusades you bigot”. In any case, saying that Indonesia is moderate because it fought against muslim separatists is an fallacy – there are plenty of reasons to fight religious separatists other than religion. Cases in point, Russia’s fight against the Caucasian mujahadeen and China’s fight against the Uyghur muslim separatists – by your logic Russia and China must be “wonderful moderate moslem” countries otherwise they wouldn’t be fighting a war against militant muslims.

      Indonesia is a “wonderful moderate moslem country”? Except for that province who wants sharia to be imposed on everyone. And the government that allows it. What else? Oh, yeah:

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/indonesia-islamic-state-magazine-handed-out-at-mosques-along-with-vouchers-for-fried-chicken

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/06/indonesia-muslims-screaming-allahu-akbar-attack-roman-catholic-church-during-sunday-mass

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/06/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-islamic-supremacists-force-authorities-to-close-seven-churches

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/05/indonesia-authorities-again-seal-shut-ahmadi-mosque

      (“Wonderful” and “moderate” muslims can’t stomach other muslims?)

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/05/indonesia-ex-muslim-imprisoned-for-inciting-religious-hatred-after-declaring-himself-atheist

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/indonesia-thousands-at-anti-shia-alliance-event-call-for-jihad-against-shiites

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/02/indonesia-armed-muslim-mob-blocks-construction-of-church

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/01/indonesia-muslim-gets-seven-and-a-half-years-prison-for-plot-to-bomb-burmese-embassy

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/indonesias-islamic-defenders-front-we-want-to-kill-myanmars-budhis

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-church-closings-signs-hung-near-church-saying-jesus-is

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-muslim-mob-attacks-church-during-prayer-service

      Good thing Indonesia is a “wonderful moderate moslem country”, right? RIGHT???

      Also, I’m wondering why is it that someone who claims to be anti-islam and specifically uses the term “moslem” to insult muslims chooses to live in a muslim-majority state, referring to it as being “wonderful” and “moderate” when all evidence points otherwise. Suspicious, very suspicious…

      • Semeru says

        Sep 25, 2014 at 12:23 am

        agrononse said
        Indonesia is a “wonderful moderate moslem country”? Except for that province who wants sharia to be imposed on everyone. And the government that allows it. What else? Oh, yeah:

        And that province h Acehas never really been part of Indonesia.

        From !873 the Acehnese where Fighting the Dutch until Aceh was invaded by the Japanese. The Acehnese were then fighting both the Dutch and the new invaders.

        After World War II, civil war erupted in 1945 between the district warlords party, that supported the return of a Dutch government, and the religious ulama party that supporting the newly proclaimed state of Indonesia. The ulama won, and the area remained free during Indonesian War of Independence.

        The Acehnese revolted soon after its inclusion into an independent Indonesia, a situation created by a complex mix of what the Acehnese fairly regarded as transgressions against and betrayals of their rights

        Soekarno, the first president of Indonesia, had reneged on his promise made on 16 June 1948 that Aceh would be allowed to rule itself in accordance with its religious values which had been in place for centuries. Aceh was politically dismantled and incorporated into the province of North Sumatra in 1950. This resulted in the Acehnese Rebellion of 1953–59

        So gaining autonomy after fighting Dutch Japanese and Indonesian invaders for more than 137 years., then they have the right to choose what law they want to follow.

        Anti-jihadis are very vocal against moslems practicing sharia law in the West, even when they exceed more than 10% of the population, The same anti-jihadis are just as vocal when the 1% of non moslems most comform to sharia.

        Agrononse then posts loads of links to earlier articles

        Which I cannot be arced to respond to all

        #1 Indonesia: Islamic State magazine handed out at mosques along with vouchers for fried chicken

        This article is bullshit, as only one moske is mentioned, and it is very unlikey it exists, as it is alleged to be an a village moske in Sempu. In reality Sempu is an island, and it is strictly forbidden to build anything there.

        The vouchers for fried chicken are in fact discount vouchers, for a brand of fried chicken owned by the islamists, which in turn sponsor the magazine.

        #2 Indonesia’s Islamic Defenders Front: “We want to kill Myanmar’s Budhis!!!”

        Maybe the where influenced by the loonies who where parading in london with posters such as Behead those that insult islam

        #3 Indonesia: Muslim gets seven and a half years prison for plot to bomb Burmese embassy

        Good

        #4 The rest of the links are to to with closure of places of worship

        Where this is happening, it is because of local bylaws put into place by local islamist leaning governors who have been voted in by islamist. In the province I live the governors belongs to a secular party, and some of the churches actually ring bells.

        Some thing for Agrononse to munch on, there are many place in Britain that are more islamized than any where in here in Indonesia except Aceh. Indonesia has had islam for more than 500 years, yet Britain only 50 years.

        In Indonesia, the churches are packed, where as in Britain they are empty and falling into dereliction or being taken over by moslems.

        By the way. have you ever been to Indonesia. I have driven around most of Indonesia by motor bike.

        • Semeru says

          Sep 25, 2014 at 12:44 am

          BTW more deception by R S.

          The photo is not of police-women as very few Indonesian police women wear hijab.

          The women belong to Satuan Polisi Pamong Praja (Satpol PP). Its members are known as ‘public order officers’. It is a lot different from the POLRI or Indonesian National Police, because it is a law enforcement body which has the specialty for only to enforce the regulations and rules from the city mayor and to take action for those who are against it.

          Several of their duties are:

          Take action to illegal street vendors, street beggars, and other kinds of problem which disturb the public condition

          Take action to illegal residential areas which are not legally agreed by the city mayor (this can and does include churches)

          In many cases where the mayor belongs to an islamist party, they work alongside islamist groups such as FPI

        • Angemon says

          Sep 25, 2014 at 3:14 pm

          That’s a nice, steaming wall of irrelevant text and taqiyya that does nothing to counter what I said: claiming that Indonesia is moderate because it fought against muslim separatists is an fallacy – there are plenty of reasons to fight religious separatists other than religion. Even if the reason to fight the Aceh islamic separatists was indeed that the government at the time was “moderate”, what does that tells us about the government nowadays allowing the imposition of sharia law? It stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate.

        • Semeru says

          Sep 26, 2014 at 2:19 am

          And agronse does not even know the meaning of taqiyya.

          It is fools like agrononse who use the term taqiyya the same like moslems who use islamophobia when they cannot face the facts

          In Islam, taqiyya is a form of religious dissimulation,[concealment of one’s thoughts, feelings, or character; pretens] or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution

          In comparision to Saudi, Yemen, Pakistan and ahost of other islamic shitholes, Indonesia is very moderate.

          Just recently there were elections here, and Indonesians [98% moslem] rejected the islamist parties who want to introduce sharia.

          No doubt you will see more burkas and face veils in Bradford, Luton and other islamic shitholes in Europe, than here Indo.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 26, 2014 at 6:54 am

          The dunce posted:

          “In Islam, taqiyya is a form of religious dissimulation,[concealment of one’s thoughts, feelings, or character;”

          http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

          Taqiyya offers two basic uses. The better known revolves around dissembling over one’s religious identity when in fear of persecution. Such has been the historical usage of taqiyya among Shi’i communities whenever and wherever their Sunni rivals have outnumbered and thus threatened them. Conversely, Sunni Muslims, far from suffering persecution have, whenever capability allowed, waged jihad against the realm of unbelief; and it is here that they have deployed taqiyya—not as dissimulation but as active deceit. In fact, deceit, which is doctrinally grounded in Islam, is often depicted as being equal—sometimes superior—to other universal military virtues, such as courage, fortitude, or self-sacrifice.

          […]

          At-Taqiyya fi’l-Islam (Dissimulation in Islam) makes it clear that taqiyya is not limited to Shi’a dissimulating in fear of persecution. Written by Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book clearly demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya:

          Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era.[5]

          Taqiyya is, therefore, not, as is often supposed, an exclusively Shi’i phenomenon.

          I’ll take Raymond Ibrahim over Wikipedia, thank you very much. Oh, and greenhorns reading this, notice what he did: he didn’t dispute my claim that what he said was a lie or my assertions about the “moderate” government, he whined whether I know or not the meaning of taqqiyya, thus shifting the argument way from his pack of lies. No rebuttal to any of my points, just a cookie-cutter response that only works if one doesn’t know what taqqiyya is and has to take the word of a proven liar for it.

          “In comparision to Saudi, Yemen, Pakistan and ahost of other islamic shitholes, Indonesia is very moderate.”

          And the crap I took yesterday didn’t smell as bad as the crap I took 3 days ago. But crap is still crap. Don’t try to piss on my boots and tell me it’s raining. There’s more than enough evidence on JW alone to dispute your claim of “moderation”. And really, if your defense of Indonesia comes down to “well, it’s not as bad as Pakistan”… Well, you get the picture.

          “Just recently there were elections here, and Indonesians [98% moslem] rejected the islamist parties who want to introduce sharia.”

          So sharia in aceh is allowed by non-islamist parties? Is that the “moderation” you’re talking about? It stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate, and no amount of whining “wah, wah, taqqiyya doesn’t mean that” will change it.

        • Semeru says

          Sep 26, 2014 at 1:15 pm

          agrononse said
          he whined whether I know or not the meaning of taqqiyya, thus shifting the argument way from his pack of lies.

          And where am I lying.

          You sling the word taqiyya around the same as how a moslem slings the word islamophobia.

          You call me a liar, them you would rather take the word Raymond Ibrahim over Wikipedia, thank you very much. You are pathetic, Ibrahim is a proven liar. There was the Muslim Brotherhood crucifying opponents of Morsi hoax, then there was the digesting Sodomy jihad Fatwa article which he posted here. It has been taken down.

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/07/sodomy-jihad-fatwa-strange-and-disgusting-but-true.htm

        • Angemon says

          Sep 26, 2014 at 2:31 pm

          The Dunce posted:

          “And where am I lying.

          You sling the word taqiyya around the same as how a moslem slings the word islamophobia”

          And one of the instances of where you’re lying. Thank you for proving my point.

          “You call me a liar, them you would rather take the word Raymond Ibrahim over Wikipedia, thank you very much.”

          The reason I call you a liar is because you lie. Constantly, maybe even pathologically.

          “You are pathetic, Ibrahim is a proven liar. There was the Muslim Brotherhood crucifying opponents of Morsi hoax, then there was the digesting Sodomy jihad Fatwa article which he posted here. It has been taken down.”

          “Digesting sodomy”? What? Anyway, as usual, you prefer to engage in personal attacks and petty insults rather than discussing Raymond Ibrahim’s article on taqiyya, which includes quotations of islamic scholars (lol, “islamic sholars” – what an oxymoron 😀 ).

          “It has been taken down.

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/07/sodomy-jihad-fatwa-strange-and-disgusting-but-true.htm”

          Now this is just pathetic. The dunce, semeru, being the stupid little dimwitted pathological liar he is, added a “.htm” to the end of the link to one of Raymond’s articles in order to get a “Page Not Found” and pretend it was taken down, hoping no one would notice it. I’d like to point out that a non-working link is not acceptable evidence. Anyone can make up a fake URL and claim it was from an article taken down. For example:

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/semeru-admits-being-repeatedly-sodomized-by-horse-to-carry-enough-explosives-to-blow-up-plane

          Notice that my fake link is much more believable that the dunce’s – no”.htm” in the end. The fact is, the article the dunce claims to have been taken down – a refutation of the “HOAX!!!” claims – was not taken down. The CORRECT link is:

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/07/sodomy-jihad-fatwa-strange-and-disgusting-but-true

          Also, here’s the original sodomy fatwa article:

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/07/raymond-ibrahim-sodomy-for-the-sake-of-islam

          And the first refutation of the “HOAX!!!” claims:

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/07/raymond-ibrahim-islamic-sodomy-or-islamophobic-hoax

          As you can see, nothing was taken down or proved to be false. Isn’t it sad the lengths the dunce went to in order to try to defame a respected JW contributor? And isn’t it sadder the childish, blatantly obvious way he went about it? Not the sharpest scimitar in the mosque, the little dunce.

          Like I said before, your whining about my usage of the term taqiyya is a pretty blatant attempt to derail the discussion away from the “moderation”, or lack of it, of islam in Indonesia. It stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate; and if your defense of Indonesia is “well, at least it’s not as bad as Pakistan”… Well, you get the idea.

        • Semeru says

          Sep 27, 2014 at 12:02 am

          Firstly Agrononse will not show where I am lying about Indonesia.

          He prefers to believe a proven liar.

          Any body who believes the bullshit about the Sodomy for Jihad Fatwah have really been suckered by Ibrahim.

          Agrononse defends Ibrahim, he also links to to where he denies it is a hoax. Ibrahim gives a lot of bullshit to establish that he is telling the truth, But he does not mention anything about the souce.

          Ibrahims source is a video aired from a former Christian church hall [mansion] in the leafy village of Fulmer in suburban Buckinghamshire by Fadek TV.

          Fadek TV is a Shia channel was founded by Yasser Al-Habib. He fled Kuwait in 2004 due to allegations of blasphemy against the Caliphs Omar and Abu Bakr, which Kuwaiti authorities claim stirred sectarian tensions in the country.

          Habib’s Kuwaiti citizenship has withdrawn on the grounds of “profaning religious symbols and trying to spread discord and division in Kuwaiti society resulting in sectarian strife.” Al-Habib has been sentenced to 10 years in prison in absentia.

          Yassir Al-Habib emphasizes the claim that Mohammed’s wife Aiysha was an immoral woman who had committed adultery. He publicly accused Omar bin Al=Khattab, the historic conqueror of Persia, of homosexuality. Many Shia scholars and followers have denounced his extreme approach, claiming most of his resources are not trusted.

          Note that his resources are not to be trusted

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadak_(TV_channel)

          More

          “In a recent programme, Sheikh al-Habib was filmed cutting a cake to celebrate the death of one of the most important historical figures in Sunni Islam, the BBC reported.

          The radical cleric also allegedly said: ‘Stay away from Shia, or the hand that helps fund those in Syria, we will cut it off, and I know what I mean.’

          Khalid Mahmood, the Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Bar, said Sheikh al-Habib had also claimed on air that two male early Islamic leaders who are revered by Sunnis had a sexual relationship together.

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583121/Clerics-hate-sermons-village-hall-Firebrand-broadcast-Middle-East-satellite-channel-Ofcom-powerless-act.html

          Ibrahim is either a Blatant liar, or a fool who cannot distinguish truth from Shia/Sunni hate propaganda

          And you agrononse are no more than a little hate monger for believing such crap

        • Angemon says

          Sep 27, 2014 at 4:15 am

          The dumb, lying dunce posted:

          “Firstly Agrononse will not show where I am lying about Indonesia.

          He prefers to believe a proven liar.”

          The proven liar here is you, who went out of your way to make up a link and claim that Raymond’s article was taken down because it was false. You lie, lie, and then lie some more, always trying to defend islam and muslims. You’re a lie-vomiting taqiyya tap-hole, and a very bad one at it.

          “Any body who believes the bullshit about the Sodomy for Jihad Fatwah have really been suckered by Ibrahim.”

          Once again, petty personal attacks but no refutation of the fatwa. As usual from that taqiyya-regurgitating islamic apologist.

          “Agrononse defends Ibrahim, he also links to to where he denies it is a hoax”

          Which is the link you claimed it was taken down, remember? You blatantly lied.

          “Ibrahim gives a lot of bullshit to establish that he is telling the truth

          […]

          Ibrahim is either a Blatant liar, or a fool who cannot distinguish truth from Shia/Sunni hate propaganda”

          Once again, the dunce mistakes petty personal attacks with a fact-based logical rebuttal. There’s nothing on his post that can refute Raymond Ibrahim on either the “Sodomy Fatwa” or the article on taqiyya which I quoted from to prove the dunce was wrong. It’s just random accusations of lying made by someone proved to be lying.

          Then the dunce goes on a long unrelated rant to demonize some shia cleric, hoping to make Raymond Ibrahim guilty by association. Didn’t the dunce ever learn that all association fallacies are red herrings? Or is he expecting to drown out discussion in unrelated matters?

          “And you agrononse are no more than a little hate monger for believing such crap”

          More personal attacks from the dumb, lying dunce. There’s nothing hateful about Raymond’s article on taqiyya, he’s making his case by quoting islamic scholars. As for the “sodomy jihad”, I’m not the one who brought it up, I’m just the one who exposed the dunce’s blatant lies – notice that he never acknowledged he lied when he claimed Raymond’s article was taken down from JW. He should just admit he lied about it and apologize for lying about it rather than pretending it never happened.

          In any case, he can try to attack Mr. Ibrahim’s reputation until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. He will never, ever produce a fact-based rebuttal. Besides, his attacks on Mr. Ibrahim have nothing to do with what I said: his whining about my usage of the term taqiyya is a pretty blatant attempt to derail the discussion away from the “moderation”, or lack of it, of islam in Indonesia. It stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate; and his your defense of Indonesia is “well, at least it’s not as bad as Pakistan”… Well, you get the idea.

        • Semeru says

          Sep 27, 2014 at 5:49 am

          You haven’t a clue

          Ibrahim is using anti Sonni hate propaganda which can be sourced to a person who has a very long history of speech. This person is now under investigation for broadcasting hate material.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 27, 2014 at 6:46 am

          The dunce posted:

          “You haven’t a clue

          Ibrahim is using anti Sonni hate propaganda which can be sourced to a person who has a very long history of speech. This person is now under investigation for broadcasting hate material.”

          This is blatantly false. On the link I posted to Raimond Ibrahim’s article on taqiyya he mentions his sources:

          http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war#_ftn1

          50 references to sources, including the quran and works of islamic scholars, some of them centuries old. Muslims and islamic apologists hate anyone who speaks the truth about islam and fiercely engage in this kind of attempted character assassination. Claiming those 50 sources (including the quran) can be traced back to a “anti Sonni” person is a desperate attempt to engage in petty personal attacks to draw attention from the “moderation”, or lack of it, of islam in Indonesia. It stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate; and if his defense of Indonesia is “well, at least it’s not as bad as Pakistan”… Well, you get the idea.

  14. james says

    Sep 24, 2014 at 9:15 am

    Seen some people here comparing Islam and Nazism, and comparisons relating to the spread of Hitler’s Nazism…. there are indeed far more Muslims than there were German’s\nazi’s, and they are indeed spread all around the globe. I do agree there are worrying similarities between the types of language and ideologies that EXTREMIST Islamic ideology portrays however to suggest that it is as worrying\destructive as Nazism I find hard to swallow.

    There ARE far more Muslims than there were Nazis but it’s intolerant stereotyping bs to assume all of them hold beliefs as strongly as Nazi Germany. I feel that a lot of the comments etc on this website would benefit from a bit more perspective and a bit less ‘stereotyping a whole group of people because different people\change scares me’.

    As a Christian in history would you have joined a war thousands of miles away from you for political reasons masquerading as religious reasons like the crusades (not the best example but the first that came to mind)…. probably not; just because a Muslim believes in a different religion to you doesn’t make their psyche completely different; everyone up to a certain point is, in terms of morality, the same, as in there’s a natural psychological response to stuff like extremism and intolerance, and it’s only people at the extreme ends of things psychologically that tend to genuinely hold these negative extremist beliefs and endorse and attempt to proliferate them.

    Grouping all of Islam as an extremist threat is more likely to separate the people on our world and genuinely cause the very thing you’re all talking so vehemently about.

  15. Semeru says

    Sep 27, 2014 at 9:42 am

    Yo, Concerning the sodomy for Jihad Fatwah, Ibrahim is is blatant lying, The video was an anti Sonni spoof.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 27, 2014 at 10:07 am

      Isn’t the world of islamic apologists a wonderfully diverse one? Just look at how they try to dismiss things that don’t favour islam: the sex jihad was allegedly a parody of the sunni ISIS, the sodomy jihad was a anti Sonni spoof… Truly diverse and completely different excuses! Islamic multiculturalism at work!

      In any case, you have nothing to back your claim with. Remember that time when you claimed that it wad been removed from JW? Yeah, your word is worth nothing, or even less. But you can change that. Start by acknowledging you lied and apologize for it.

      Not that it matters. Your petty vendetta against Raymond Ibrahim is nothing more than a ruse to draw attention away from what I said regarding the “moderation”, or lack of it, of islam in Indonesia: it stands to reason that if the government is enabling the “radicals” in Aceh then the government is not moderate; and if your defense of Indonesia is “well, at least it’s not as bad as Pakistan”… Well, you get the idea.

  16. Semeru says

    Sep 29, 2014 at 9:38 am

    So how am I an apologist when I state a fact. Indonesia is only 69 years old, Aceh was included into Indonesia after it won independence. Right from the beginning Aceh has tried to leave Indo, it even fought a 30 year war, which ended when it was granted autonomy, Aceh has never been really a part of Indonesia, so why should Indo be blamed for the how the Acehnese choose to be governed.

    I do not see you complaining about Thailand allowing Sharia In Yala, Narathiwat, Pattani and Songkhla provinces. The same goes for the Philipines that has allowed sharia trial and circuit trial courts in Mindanao since 1977.

    If you are talking out against Islam, the very least you can do is get your facts right.

    As for Ibrahim crap about the Sodomy for Jihad, Here is more info about the source

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357021/The-hate-sheikh-Home-Counties-Firebrand-cleric-fuelling-global-conflict-Muslims-sets-HQ-idyllic-village.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589795/Fears-preacher-stir-race-tensions-Buckinghamshire-village.html

    Well if you can believe what this Sheikh Yasser al-Habib says, all I can say is

    “what,s the ugliest part of your body
    some say your nose
    some say your toes
    but I think it is your mind

    Frank Zappa

    • Champ says

      Sep 30, 2014 at 2:18 am

      “semeru” is a lost cause serving an evil cause: islam. Blah!

    • Angemon says

      Sep 30, 2014 at 5:52 pm

      The dunce posted:

      “So how am I an apologist when I state a fact.”

      What “fact” would that be? That Indonesia is “wonderfully moderate” because it fought a war against “radicals”? That’s not a fact, it’s a false assertion.

      “Indonesia is only 69 years old, Aceh was included into Indonesia after it won independence. Right from the beginning Aceh has tried to leave Indo, it even fought a 30 year war, which ended when it was granted autonomy”

      Notice that this goes against his previous narrative.

      “Aceh has never been really a part of Indonesia, so why should Indo be blamed for the how the Acehnese choose to be governed.”

      Is aceh not part of Indonesia?

      “I do not see you complaining about Thailand allowing Sharia In Yala, Narathiwat, Pattani and Songkhla provinces. The same goes for the Philipines that has allowed sharia trial and circuit trial courts in Mindanao since 1977.”

      Red herring. This is a topic about what’s taking place in Indonesia, not Thailand or the Philippines.

      “If you are talking out against Islam, the very least you can do is get your facts right.”

      Notice the dunce “forgot” to mention what facts I allegedly got wrong.

      “ As for Ibrahim crap about the Sodomy for Jihad, Here is more info about the source

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357021/The-hate-sheikh-Home-Counties-Firebrand-cleric-fuelling-global-conflict-Muslims-sets-HQ-idyllic-village.html

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589795/Fears-preacher-stir-race-tensions-Buckinghamshire-village.html”

      None of those articles mentions the sodomy jihad, so they’re completely irrelevant. More misdirection and red herrings.

      “Well if you can believe what this Sheikh Yasser al-Habib says”

      You’re the one bringing up the al-Habib red-herring, not me. You were also the one bringing up the sodomy fatwa, not me. If muslims want to raise their index finger to the sky as to say “I just tucked some explosives in” they’re free to do so.

  17. Semeru says

    Oct 4, 2014 at 4:36 am

    Yes and it was you who brought up Raymond Ibrahim as a reliable source, who, I have proven takes slanderous issues from very unreliable sources

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