They don’t mean that as a positive thing, but if they had any sense, they would. This is a few days old, but since it contains numerous Leftist assumptions about the jihad threat and the proper response to it, it is well worth examining closely: “We Are All Pamela Geller,” by Jay Michaelson, Jewish Daily Forward, September 29, 2014:
Well, now we know what it takes to stop Pamela Geller’s crusade against terrorism: an actual victim of it.
Condemned by such noted liberals as the ADL, Dinesh D’Souza, and the Daily News, banned by the Great Neck Synagogue (but embraced by Chabad), Geller is the anti-Muslim wacko who takes ads on buses and subways to remind us all that followers of Islam are “savages” and that there’s no such thing as a moderate Muslim. (Someone better inform Dr. Oz.)
The Left’s taste for ad hominem attacks and false statements of the positions of those they hate is on abundant display here. The ADL, Dinesh D’Souza, the New York Daily News and the Great Neck Synagogue all oppose Pamela Geller, so she must be wrong, right? But why is that? Who made them infallible? The ADL has libeled the preeminent lawyer and orthodox Jew David Yerushalmi as an “extremist,” an “anti-Muslim bigot” and a “white supremacist.” The ADL has even condemned Israel for fighting anti-Semitism. According to Charles Jacobs of Americans for Peace and Tolerance, the ADL “remains essentially silent” about Islamic anti-Semitism, for fear of alienating Leftist donors. As for D’Souza, I could find no record of his condemning Pamela Geller. He has attacked me, to be sure, but I am not Pamela Geller, and in any case, since he demonstrated in our debates that he doesn’t know the first foggiest thing about Islam or jihad, his opposition does not trouble me. The Daily News? The mainstream media is in lockstep on the Left. The Great Neck Synagogue was intimidated by a smear campaign — and Michaelson’s mentioning it shows how those campaigns work: Left-fascists smear and defame a pro-freedom speaker to get him or her canceled. Once they get the cancellation from a harried host who doesn’t want controversy, they use it as if the group canceling the event made a judicious decision based on an evaluation of the egregious statements of the person being canceled — which is almost never actually the case. These groups just don’t want the heat, and so the Leftists bring the heat and know that they will thereby get what they want.
Anyway, as we said hundreds of times when the ad was new: the ad said, “In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat jihad.” That doesn’t refer to all Muslims unless one assumes that all Muslims support the savage jihad against Israel that has Israeli children massacred in their beds and those massacres celebrated by people passing out candy in Gaza. Moreover, to trot out this chestnut after the savagery of the Islamic State has been on abundant display reveals Jay Michaelson to be, to say the least, tone-deaf. And “there’s no such thing as a moderate Muslim”? The Leftists and Islamic supremacists always seem to feel as if they have to lie to make their case. Pamela Geller has never actually said that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.
Until yesterday, Geller was planning another assault on the citizens of New York, in the form of hateful bus and subway ads. But at the 11th hour, reason intervened, in the form of the family of James Foley, one of the Islamic State’s victims, who asked that Geller pull the ads.
The Foley family succeeded where an array of activists and municipalities have failed. Say what you will about Geller’s politics, her legal counsel is excellent. Her organization, the American Freedom Defense Initiative — and its project, Stop the Islamicization [sic] of America — has won court victories that make it very difficult for the MTA, or its sister agencies in Boston, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., to stop her. “Our hands are tied,” an MTA representative told the Daily News.
This is, after all, political speech, carefully lawyered to evade prosecution. And let’s remember that Geller has only committed to withdrawing those picturing Foley, which still leaves plenty of hate to be written on the subway walls.
Prior to the Foleys’ success, tactics have varied widely — with similarly varying results.
Michaelson is quite wrong when he refers to Geller’s legal counsel in conjunction with the Foley ad. The Foleys did not have a legal case, and did not make one. They didn’t own the picture and had no legal standing to demand that it not be used. They said it caused them distress and asked that it not be used, and Pamela Geller, as a mother who could feel the pain of their loss, agreed. That was all. It is particularly disingenuous of Michaelson to suggest that this was really all about being lawyered up, but of course he is making it his business to make Pamela Geller look as bad as possible — his caricature has no room for her to feel or exercise any human compassion. And so in this he reveals his hateful little screed for exactly what it is: the vices and evils of which he accuses her — hatefulness, small-mindedness, lack of charity — are those he himself actually suffers from most acutely.
The best the MTA has been able to win is a disclaimer that SOIA’s views are not those of the MTA. Mayor Bill DiBlasio has proposed contemplation: Those “forced to view [the ads] can take comfort in the knowledge that we share a better, loftier and nobler view of humanity.” Alright.
San Francisco’s Muni system did better, posting their own ads a few feet from Geller’s setting forth Muni’s anti-discrimination policy and explicitly condemning Geller’s statements. Better.
So what Michaelson wants is this: municipalities should be able to suppress political speech that goes against the line of the elites. If they cannot suppress it, then the elites should make sure people know that this speech deviates from the acceptable line of thought. What Michaelson wants, in other words, is the suppression of free speech and open debate, in favor of a single acceptable political line enforced by force from above.
Moderate Muslim organizations have started their own counter-protests: the #MyJihad campaign (which Geller has co-opted) and humor-based campaigns such as “Fighting Bigotry With Hilarious Posters,” which warns us that “the Muslims are coming — to your radiology department.” Nice.
How did she “co-opt” the #MyJihad campaign? By running actual statements of actual jihadists. Not acceptable! Only fantasy jihad is politically acceptable, not actual jihad!
And enterprising activists have made an art form out of directly “modifying” Geller’s posters, sometimes just with black spray paint but other times with pictures of Geller herself and witty speech-bubbles like “I’m obsessed and must struggle to stop.” I won’t name acronyms, but some left-leaning Jewish organizations have gotten in on the act too.
Now the cat is fully out of the bag. By applauding this vandalism, Michaelson reveals that he is the son and heir of the Nazi brownshirts who shouted down and physically intimidated anti-Nazi speakers in the early days of the Third Reich, for he, like them, wants the speech of those whom he hates forcibly suppressed.
Here, however, I’d like to take a different tack.
Not really different at all. Read on.
Geller’s ads may have been pulled, but her presence is still felt keenly in our community, and I think it’s too easy to focus on Geller as a racist clown, thus giving all the rest of us a free pass. Geller is like a pro-Israel Barry Goldwater: in our hearts, many in our community believe her to be right.
What race is jihad mass murder of innocent civilians again? I keep forgetting.
So, rather than Di-Blasian self-satisfaction, I’d like to invite the exact opposite: self-questioning. It’s highly appropriate for this season of repentance, and it is a lot more productive. We should be asking ourselves: What views do I hold that enable, or resemble, such extremism? If I’m on the Left, do I call out my friends when their anti-Zionism slides into anti-Semitism? And if I’m on the Right, do I hold myself and my friends accountable for views which border on bigotry?
Okay, I’ll start: what views does Jay Michaelson hold that “enable, or resemble, such extremism?” Well, I doubt he holds any views that coincide with Pamela Geller’s passionate defense of freedom and individual rights, but I’d classify as truly “extremist” his view that political speech that is not accepted by the ruling class should be forcibly suppressed. He might enjoy his totalitarian state, but I’d be scaling the Wall at the earliest opportunity.
Let me give some examples, direct from Geller herself.
One of Geller’s new ads states that “Hamas is ISIS, Hamas is Al-Qaeda, Hamas is Boko Haram, Hamas is CAIR in America.” Factually, this is quite false. In fact, while Hamas has nominally supported ISIS in Syria — thus damaging ties with its historic sponsor, Iran — the Islamic State is a Salafist jihadist/fundamentalist movement that regards Hamas as impure and the Israel/Palestinian conflict as largely irrelevant. In fact, Hamas’s best friend today is Qatar, which is in the coalition opposing the Islamic State. Unsurprisingly, Geller is just ignorant here.
This is false in every particular. In reality, the Islamic State doesn’t oppose Hamas, and while it has said that it wants to consolidate power in Iraq and Syria before attacking Israel, it has not called Hamas impure or the jihad against Israel irrelevant; on the contrary, it has sought ties with Gaza jihadis. Unsurprisingly, Michaelson is just ignorant here.
But to vilify CAIR in this way is defamatory, like saying that AIPAC is Baruch Goldstein. Do some CAIR members support Hamas? Probably. Did some AIPAC members support Goldstein? Probably. Does that make them identical? No.
Michaelson is apparently also ignorant of the fact that the Justice Department named CAIR an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas terror funding case. Its cofounder and executive director, Nihad Awad, openly declared in 1994: “I am in support of the Hamas movement.” Awad and Omar Ahmad came out of the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP) to start CAIR. The IAP was later shut down as a Hamas front. This is much more than just “some CAIR members” supporting Hamas.
Now I want to turn the question inward. Have I learned enough about the differences among Muslim groups, or do I reduce them all to the “Them” in an Us/Them dichotomy? Do I recognize that all religious and national groups have their moderates and extremists? That Paul Ryan isn’t Bill O’Reilly isn’t Pamela Geller — even if they’ve all intersected at times?
And do I appreciate the consequences for American civil society if I were really to believe, as another Geller ad insists, that “yesterday’s moderate is today’s headline”? Is everyone who has an expansive view of the Second Amendment the same as mass shooters in Colorado and Connecticut? Is every conservative in the KKK? Do we see what this kind of thinking would mean?
The ad is making a valid point: all too many jihadis were taken as moderates in their communities and by authorities before they embarked upon jihad. There is nothing being done in Muslim communities to teach against the ideology of al-Qaeda and the Islamic State that Muslim groups in the West ostensibly reject. There needs to be a public discussion of this and of what can and should be done about it, but it is buried by people like Michaelson under charges of “bigotry.”
Let’s take a second example. “Jew-hatred: It’s in the Quran,” an AFDI poster blares. And indeed, the Quran has many violent passages, including some about Jews — most notoriously 5:60, which says that “some” Jews have been transformed into “monkeys and pigs.” It is definitely triumphalist in nature. (See, e.g. 4:101, 66:9, 28:66.)
But have you read the Quran, cover to cover?
Yes, many times.
Including verses like 2:256 (“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error”), or the many similar exhortations in 6:107, 11:28, 42:8, 65:26, and elsewhere? Or, for that matter, 2:47, which exhorts “Children of Israel! Call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations”?
Michaelson doesn’t explain why Islamic antisemitism is global in extent despite all this supposedly positive material in the Qur’an about Jews. He probably thinks it’s because of Israel’s supposed atrocities. In reality, the Qur’an only speaks positively about Jews who accept Muhammad as a prophet and become Muslims, and speaks quite negatively about those who don’t. The Qur’an makes this clear when it says that “those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings” (98:6). Who are “those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture”? They are the Christians and Jews who do not become Muslims. The Tafsir al-Jalalayn explains: “Before his [that is, Muhammad’s] arrival they had all agreed to believe in him when he would come; then those who disbelieved in him from among them became envious of him.” The passages about Jews and Christians being saved refers to Jews and Christians who become Muslims, while those who remain Jews and Christians are “the worst of created beings.” In his commentary on 5:69, Ibn Kathir makes this clear, telling Jews and Christians that they will have “no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah [Torah] and the Injil [Gospel]. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law.”
To be sure, ISIS’s barbarianshave not lived up to these nobler teachings. Nor did the Crusaders, of course, live up to theirs.
Very common to bring up the Crusades in this connection. Highly fallacious nonetheless, as there are no New Testament passages comparable to Qur’an 9:29, enjoining believers to wage war against and subjugate unbelievers. But even if there were, what difference, as Hillary Clinton might say, would it make? Even granting that the Crusades were terrible, does this mean we should not resist the Islamic State and the identify the origins of its ideology? Michaelson apparently thinks so.
And have you read the Hebrew Bible, cover to cover? Including Deuteronomy 7:2-3, which calls for the complete ethnic cleansing of the Land of Israel, along with similar exhortations in Numbers 31:7-18, Joshua 11:12-15, and elsewhere? And is not Judaism likewise triumphalist, sure that it is the one true religion?
Again common, but facile and silly. Until armed groups of Jews begin committing violence on a global scale and invoking Deuteronomy and Numbers and Joshua to justify it, this is a comparison that may look good on paper to the ignorant and uninformed, but actually has no substance.
All Western religions have teachings of peace and teachings of violence within them. All have followers who emphasize one or the other. All can be triumphalist, violent, and ethnocentric — or the opposite. In some times and places, the fundamentalists hold sway; in others, the moderates. This is reality.
Not really. No Western religion besides Islam has any teaching mandating the conquest and subjugation of unbelievers.
Perhaps you’ve noticed the irony here. In condemning all Muslims as savage and violent, Geller is herself becoming like those Muslims who are. She is a fundamentalist like they are fundamentalists; she is irrational like they are irrational.
Geller savage and violent, eh? Whose head has she cut off?
And another irony: So are we, if we simply assume that Geller is over there, and I’m over here. Moderate/Extremist is just another Us/Them dichotomy — one that gives me a pass just as Geller’s Us/Them dichotomy gives her.
Actually, we are all Pamela Geller to some extent: She is simply the manifestation of the fearful, irrational, and hateful parts of each of us. There’s a Geller inside me and a Geller inside you. I can listen to that part of myself and “know she’s right.” Or I can listen to it, reflect on it, and explore whether that’s the voice I want to obey.
Indeed, what finally defeated Geller — in this particular battle at least — was nothing more and nothing less than basic human decency. A grieving family with every reason to support her vitriolic rhetoric has instead asked her to back off. They have risen above vengeance to something better.
It is all too human to support Pamela Geller, and all too human to simply blow her off. But as the Foley family has shown, it is also possible to rise above her.
alyn21 says
It is amazing how a people who are so brilliant in so many areas can be so utterly stupid when it comes to politics. Thank god for people like Ms Geller who are not afraid to speak the truth. Somehow we Jews never seem to learn from history.
Kim says
I’m always flabbergasted whenever a Jew starts trying to whitewash Muslim antisemitism. What do those people think they’re going to achieve?
john spielman says
these liberal Jews seem to be willing to line up again and go quietly to the muslim gass chambers.
Bravo Ms Geller!
Tradewinds says
Brava Ms. Geller!
Tradewinds says
Michaelson is a self-loathing Jew, that’s obvious.
Max Publius says
Haha, as usual, every example of a moderate Muslim is easily proved false with a quick search. Someone should inform the Forward that Dr. Oz has left Islam:
“In the November/December 2007 issue of Spirituality and Health, a glossy bimonthly devoted to New Age topics, Oz coauthored an article titled “Mehmet Oz Finds His Teacher,” about how his wife Lisa introduced him to the theology of Swedenborg. (Lisa, by the way, is a Reiki Master. Reiki is a Japanese form of alternative medicine developed by a Buddhist monk.)”
Max Publius says
Dinesh D’Souza is a liberal now?
Dang Forward, do you do any research? There’s this great tool called Google…
Actually, the Forward is just plain stupid because it should have known that D’Souza is a well-known conservative.
Saleem Smith says
If the West survives the resurgent Islamic jihad currently sweeping the globe, Pam Geller and others like her should be honored alongside the Statue of Liberty.
Qur’an 005:051
Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers.
Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk 53, No. 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, “Let us go to the Jews” We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.”
mortimer says
There may be ‘moderate’ Muslims who do not believe all the necessary doctrines, but there factually no ‘moderate Islam’.
There is only Islam according to the consensus. If there is a different, another version of Islam, it is BIDA (innovation). Pious Muslims are obliged to hunt down and murder those who create a non-consensus Islam.
ISIS is doing that. Any version of Islam that is not the Salafist version must be hunted and persecuted and executed and beheaded and buried by the ISIS fighters. They know what Islam is.
john spielman says
I agree! There are no doubt many secular muslims who reject ISIS and its interpretation of islam BUT ISIS IS ISLAM! basic fundamental sunni wahabi islam and EVERYTHING they do is according to the word and action of muhammed-pbuh* As history teaches us, the local variety of islam always morphs into the more violent fundamental islam because of outright intimidation and violence against the milder forms of islam by those who adhere to wahabi interpretation the qur’an and hadiths of muhammed-pbuh*
8 pbuh- perpetual banishment unto hell!
nuvaslacker says
I always thought that pbuh meant piss be upon him, as I’m sure that’s what they said when I asked. I thought it was a reference to the camel urine that Mo put forward as a universal panacea.
voegelinian says
“There are no doubt many secular muslims who reject ISIS and its interpretation of islam”
One can’t go 15 minutes on Jihad Watch without bumping into asymptotic spasms like this. Very annoying.
citycat says
The apologists for Islam do not use logic, and they winge at the truth about Islam, and they come across as traitors to me.
Tradewinds says
I agree, the Islam apologists are traitors. Which includes our current president and dimwit SofState, John “Fool” Kerry. The F stands for “Fool.” You can also substitute “Tool.”
Rebecca says
Some people are so open minded that their brains fall out.
Know Thy Enemy says
ROTFL…..
sidney penny says
Thank you Robert.
Without your incisive analysis we would think that Jay Michaelson views were correct.
“This is a few days old ”
Better late than never to counter the numerous assumptions made by Jay Michaelson about the ignorance and complacency surrounding the jihad threat and about what he wrote about Pamela Geller.
Answering it paragraph by paragraph is a good way of responding.(rather than all in the beginning or the end).
“But have you read the Quran, cover to cover?”
Your reply should have been -Yes, many,many,many times.
In relation to the last 2 paragraphs ,you could have referred to Pamela Geller comments.
http://pamelageller.com/2014/10/cnn-james-foleys-mother-greatly-appreciates-the-compassionate-response.html/
duh_swami says
Slap, slap…’Snap out of it’…Stupid kuffar…There sure seem to be a lot of them…Some are more clever than other’s but they all share the same Islamo-stupidity.
expat says
Apologies in advance that this post doesn’t directly address the article above.
I have been a subscriber to Robert Spencer’s emails since soon after 9/11. Through Afghanistan and Iraq invasions, a good conservative believing that what we were doing was helping the people of those nations.
Now, all these years later, I still look forward to seeing it in my inbox along with David Horowitz’s emails as well. Through this time, I have watched the rise of Pamela Geller as well.
About 10 years ago I moved to East Africa. I live with the very real concern before attending any events that it may be a target for Al-Shabab. In fact, there are marathons in both October and November that I had to make the decision to run in after considering what a prime target they would be.
At the same time, the past 10 years I have engaged with Muslims. When I go running at 5:30am, I greet many of my friends and acquaintances on their way to the mosque. I am safer to be sharing the streets with them.
Over the years, I have shared meals, been in their homes and discussed politics and religion many times. Just last night, we dined with friends who are celebrating this week of feasting. A teacher from the mosque taught my daughters the basics of classical Arabic and now my daughters are excelling at online Arabic courses through a US university through they are only 14 and 15 years old.
I have 3 points here related to the coverage provided by Spencer, Horowitz, Geller, et al –
First, if the only coverage of Muslims you are getting is through Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and the sensationalism on the news, you are missing so much. There are many moderate Muslims who are fighting against the fundamentalist in academia, in daily life and now even with arms as we have seen the first female fighter pilot in UAE participate in strikes against ISIS.
Second, try to engage Muslims in your community as you have the opportunity. Many aspects of the various Middle Eastern cultures are absolutely beautiful and interesting. While there are aspects of their culture that you find unacceptable, find the common ground. As you discover they are human beings with hopes and dreams very similar to your own, you will be humanized in their eyes as well. We carry a responsibility for the Somali youth in Minnesota and the others around the US who are marginalized by us and turn bitter.
Finally, I don’t questions Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and other’s motivations for the materials they choose to emphasize but they are making money off of your and my fears. I have come to the conclusion that they are fear mongers of the worst stripe.
This morning I was in the gym. This young kid of Arab descent who just started coming the past few weeks looks like a prime candidate to be or have been taken in by one of the more radical mosque in the area. Over the past few weeks, he would sort of furtively look at me out of the corner of his eye or in the mirrors. I’m looking at him waiting to make eye contact and greet him. He’s benching about 60 pounds. Today, I had the chance to talk with him about protein supplements and using proper form. He is a human being and over the next several weeks I will treat him with respect demonstrating that I am too. I’m not furtively looking at him out of the corner of my eye fearful of what he may become.
For most of us, the battle isn’t on the front line against ISIS. It is engaging and respecting those we share this world with. If your response is, “Yeah, well they don’t want to engage and respect us.”, then I say you have been brainwashed by these fear mongers or are too lazy to try. “They” are willing.
expat says
Alright. Sorry about that second to the last sentence. “THEY don’t respect us.” is the reply I most often face when having these discussion with actual people. I’ve never posted to a forum like this before. Anyway, that line about being brainwashed or lazy was uncalled for…
Tradewinds says
You’re the brainwashed, expat. Spencer, Geller and Horowitz are truth-tellers about Islam.
Know Thy Enemy says
He’s no ‘expat’. He is a Muslim doing taqiyya! It is best if he stays in east Africa.
Tradewinds says
You’re right, he’s a Muslim with his BS. Stay in your Islamic toilet.
Champ says
expat …
Get. Lost.
Angemon says
expat posted:
“First, if the only coverage of Muslims you are getting is through Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and the sensationalism on the news, you are missing so much.”
We still have our heads attached to our shoulders though.
“We carry a responsibility for the Somali youth in Minnesota and the others around the US who are marginalized by us and turn bitter.”
The idea that muslims are “radicalized” because of “marginalization” is rubbish. We’ve seen Westernized muslims who were doing well in life becoming “radicalized”. And how about 2nd or 3rd generation muslims, who are more westernized than their parents?
“Finally, I don’t questions Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and other’s motivations for the materials they choose to emphasize but they are making money off of your and my fears.”
Really? Who’s paying them, and why? How much are they making?
“I have come to the conclusion that they are fear mongers of the worst stripe.”
When did you come to that conclusion? Here’s what you said:
“I have been a subscriber to Robert Spencer’s emails since soon after 9/11. Through Afghanistan and Iraq invasions, a good conservative believing that what we were doing was helping the people of those nations.
Now, all these years later, I still look forward to seeing it in my inbox along with David Horowitz’s emails as well. Through this time, I have watched the rise of Pamela Geller as well.”
9/11 was over 13 years ago. When did you come to the conclusion that “they are fear mongers of the worst stripe“? And why are you looking forward to receiving emails from people you call “fear mongers of the worst stripe“?
“This morning I was in the gym. This young kid of Arab descent who just started coming the past few weeks looks like a prime candidate to be or have been taken in by one of the more radical mosque in the area.”
You know what? I think you should apply to Homeland Security. Your ability to tell from a glance who is, or not, a prime candidate to “radicalization” would certainly be welcome. At the very least you should tip-off law enforcement about the radical mosque in your area. Although I’m shocked at your lack of sensibility – you assume that someone is a muslim for no other reason than being of arab descent? That’s stereotyping of the worst kind.
“ Over the past few weeks, he would sort of furtively look at me out of the corner of his eye or in the mirrors.”
Maybe he’s coming out of the closet? Or maybe he noticed you eying him and suspecting you’re trying to come on to him – careful not to get pounded. Unless that’s what you want, in which case good luck – I’m not here to judge you.
“ I’m looking at him waiting to make eye contact and greet him.”
You mean, right now, as you type that post?
“For most of us, the battle isn’t on the front line against ISIS. It is engaging and respecting those we share this world with.”
Didn’t the FBI tried outreach in Boston? How did that turned out for them?
“ I say you have been brainwashed by these fear mongers or are too lazy to try”
You know nothing about anyone here. You don’t know who has – or hasn’t – had contact with muslims and their communities, and you’re in no position to make any sort of assumption. By the way, did no one ever told you that False Dichotomy and Argument to Moderation are fallacies?
Robert Spencer says
Angemon:
Ha! I was vastly amused reading your dismantling of this transparent fake’s clumsy psy-op. Many thanks.
Angemon says
You’re welcome 🙂
Tess says
I think you should check the credentials of the people you speak of, climb out of your box
Angemon says
Tess posted:
“I think you should check the credentials of the people you speak of, climb out of your box”
I take it you’re talking about Robert and Pamela not having a degree on islamic studies? Well, that’s a nice way of dismissing them without having to deal with what they say. Robert may not have a formal degree but he has published several books on islam and trained law enforcement agencies on the tenets of islam. He also debated several muslims and islamic apologists, and I don’t think he ever lost a debate – he made his points, he could name islamic sources to back them, and he could give historical precedents, from the islamic mandate to wage warfare against non-believers to honor killings.
Do you know who else doesn’t have a degree on islamic studies? David Cameron, John Kerry and Barack Obama. In fact, here’s Obama’s view of the Islamic State:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/obama-the-islamic-state-is-not-islamic
Barack Obama had this to say:
“ISIL is not “Islamic.” No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim.”
Robert Spencer made this comment:
“One of those supporters of the Islamic State, however, would respond that the people the Islamic State killed were not innocent, but culpable in some way, and that its Muslim victims were apostates or heretics, and hence their lives were forfeit.”
Do you know who has impeccable islamic credentials? Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the self-proclaimed caliph. The slamic state gathers support from muslims worldwide because it adheres to islamic standards. And here’s the second “lend me your ears” video, where the islamic state addresses the killing of innocents and of other muslims:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wzGnQIhLhc
Having seen that, whose opinion you’d say to adequately explain the islamic state’s actions? Obama’s, who claims that the IS killed innocents, or Robert’s, who said that the muslims members of the islamic state consider shia muslim to be heretics and apostates?
I don’t see any reason to disregard what Robert says, not when he’s proved over and over to understand the point of view of the so-called muslim “radicals”, or “terrorists”. You can’t win if you don’t know your enemy.
Mirren10 says
”I think you should check the credentials of the people you speak of, climb out of your box.”
*I* think *you* should learn some logic.
In actual fact, Robert Spencer *does* have credentials in religious studies, I believe a BA, and an MA. However, that doesn’t make him infallible, any more than your hero Aslan.
What makes Robert Spencer worth listening to, is the fact that he is extremely knowledgeable about the koran, hadith, sira, the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence, etc. He also has an eminently logical mind, and is very able in debate.
Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative. The most general structure of this argument is:
This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of a claim is not related to the authority of the claimant, and because the premises can be true, and the conclusion false (an authoritative claim can turn out to be false). It is also known as argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it).
On the other hand, arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true. The fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism.
So, according to *your* ‘logic’, only someone with a Ph.D in islam is speaking the truth. Did you know Baghdadi has a Ph.D in islam ? That makes him infallible, right ? So everything he says about islam is correct !
Actually, everything he says about islam *is* correct, not because he’s got a Ph.D, but because it’s in the koran, for all who have a brain, to read.
Chabuco says
“… fearmongers”—
Stopped reading right there.
Cool projection bro! Robert Spencer, Geller, Horowitz, Pipes, Condell… you name them! Are people who just POINT OUT attrocities, persecution, prosecution, mass murder, genocide… etc. committed by your comrades worldwide EVERYDAY; On their websites they LITERALLY copy & paste news stories from well respected and stablished news agencies like Reuters, AFP, AP… etc and even from Arab sources like Al-Arabiya, that’s all. Yeah, I know. the truth is a bitch, for sociopaths and dolts like you who rather hide, under a rug, the horrors perpetrated by those who follow the tenets of the Qu’ran.
So, please, stop projecting on to Spencer, Geller and so on what your comrades do onto non-Muslims each day. The only “fearmongering” -and that’s an euphemism for pathological hatred- is that of devout, non-secular Muslims against non-Muslims, apostates and secular Muslims -Muslims deemed non-Muslim enough-.
Like we say in my country: Tras de ladrón, bufón.
mariam rove says
Fear mongering? Islam is fear itself. How do you know that no one here has any contacts with Muslims? Look: I was born and raised a Muslim. What I forgot about Islam you don’t even know. Islam is a cancer and it is the biggest threat to our way of life here in the west. There are moderate Muslims out there but they are irrelevant. My own family included. They are so delusional about Islam and their pedophile prophet it makes a someone with dementia look sane. let’s get real here. Don’t label people as fear mongers when they are telling the truth . Look at all Muslim countries. One a bigger s….hole that the other and the sole reason for this is their religion. Islam. The so called religion of peace!!! M
Larry S says
Miriam-
I often marvel at people like yourself, who grew up in such a different manner than I did, can end up having such a similar perspective to my own while, on the contrary, so many of my confreres live with such a warped sense of reality.
I had presumed, just given your nic and how you present, that you were Jewish. Well maybe you are now, but you weren’t. Is there any place on the ‘Net, or elsewhere accessible to the public, where you have told your story? I, for one, would like to read it.
mariam rove says
Hi LS! Thank you. I am not computer savvy so I do not have a place to tell my story. Here on this site where a lot people know my story. I am an atheist however I date a Jewish woman if that is any help!!!!!! I hare Islam more that I hate cancer. You should see how they destroyed and are destroying Iran where I was born. Islam is all about destruction. Period. The bigger problem here in the west is not the jihadists who go and blow up innocent people, rather stealth jihadist like CAIR who is working our system and with clown in chief and Islamic sympathizer and enabler that we have in the white house things are going to get worse. We need to fight this Ideology (Islam) tooth and nail, otherwise before you know it we would get flogged for having a glass of scotch and I am not kidding you. M
Cicero says
Sir you comment is rational and well measured. No doubt your daughters’ developing fluency in Arabic will be of definite use in the! Arabic utopia that will be the global future as well meaning non-MUslims insist on not gaining knowledge about the fundamental tenets of the. Global religion of peace and nurture vague hopes of a compromise and understanding with Islam and it’s billions of followers
We are all human beings and as such we all want to build bridges for understanding, tolerance and even cooperation even bodybuilding MUslims et al. HOwever you underestimate the thoroughness of the brainwashing and the deadly injunctions ingrained into the Muslim psyche which can awakened at the slightest hair trigger and the those mild moderate friendly faces wil turn into blood curdling antagonists who would snuff yuu out at the drop of a hat: seize your property: possess your wife and daughters and. Enslave your sons . You do not have to search far afield to gain information on what happened to non-MUslims who lived in MUslim areas. Such as Turkey, BAngladesh, Kashmir,and now currently in the Middle East.
Larry S says
With all due respect for Robert, it is not at clear to me that you are a fake. I appreciate your considered comment, and won’t try to psychoanalyze it.
First, if the only coverage of Muslims you are getting is through Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and the sensationalism on the news, you are missing so much. There are many moderate Muslims…
Yes, someone who relies overwhelming on Spencer, Geller and Horowitz would then to get an “unbalanced” view of the world of Islam. While I’m merely an arm chair traveler, I do have a sense of notable Arab hospitality, for example, a characteristic that Islam may even have fostered. But in terms of what concerns the majority of us here about Islam, it is the intolerance, the murderousness, and the oppression that is core to the ideology and that has been so intertwined with Islam for 1400 years. That’s why we are so interested in it- if it were a harmless belief that merely maintained an eccentric view of the world but didn’t call for the murder of apostates and the subjugation of infidels, I’d be more than happy to let them be. Pamela Geller describes it thusly: she wouldn’t care if they worshipped a stone, as long as they don’t stone people with it.
I’m not furtively looking at him out of the corner of my eye fearful of what he may become.
I’m glad you can have this kind of rapport with a young person. In my lifetime, though, I don’t expect to be able to assume benign intent on the part of Moslems I encounter. Ok, ok, I’m a little suspicious of Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Quakers too, but I can be confident that such people, acting in the name of their religion, will not murder me. Cannot say that about Moslems.
Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and other’s motivations for the materials they choose to emphasize but they are making money off of your and my fears
I hope Robert has made out well financially from his writings. Pamela, however, does not receive a salary for her efforts on behalf of AFDI. I suspect a fair amount of the money needed to maintain AFDI’s programs has come from her personally. Doesn’t sound to me like someone trying to make money off my fears.
expat says
Thanks for your courteous reply.
What prompted me to write in the first place was Robert’s excellent analysis and criticism of Jay Michaelson’s article. That is why I look forward to receiving his emails.
However, if you look at the responses to my post, there is no quarter for any Muslims. From Cicero’s “deadly injunctions ingrained into the Muslim psyche which can awakened at the slightest hair trigger” to Miriam’s wonderful story of escape from Islam, it seems that according to Robert Spencer and these posters, Islam must be wiped off the face of the earth.
As for all the criticism of me by these various posters, I am in the middle of it. I tutor high school boys, Christians, Muslims, anyone, in math and physics. I try to connect – treating them with respect and gaining their respect.
For those who suggest my daughters use of Arabic will come in useful when they are dhimmis, I say their use of Arabic will come be useful when they are sharing the forgiveness and freedom we have in Christ with Muslims with respect.
My family have done and continue to do our part in the fight against radical Islam by building relationships and sharing Christ with Muslims. Many Muslims choose Christ even with the severe consequences they face within their families.
I live in a place where I am known and certain Muslims stand outside my gate and try to intimidate me as I come and go. When I go running in the mornings, I am armed. How did I know the young man of Arab descent in the gym was a Muslim? Because he came to the gym after morning prayers. The significance of him being of Arab descent is that he wasn’t a black African who is much less likely to be recruited by the radical mosques.
As I said before, for most of us, the battle isn’t on the front line against ISIS. It is engaging and respecting those we share this world with. If our values are so superior to theirs, won’t they see it? In my life, I experience this daily.
I used the name fear monger because while Robert’s commentaries are excellent, he doesn’t offer any solutions or ways forward. He only peddles fear.
As for Robert Spencer characterizing my post as “this transparent fake’s clumsy psy-op.” I would invite him into my home here in East Africa to see that I am what I claim to be. He has the ability to have his IT people check the IP address of this email and see where it is from. Though I would be gratefulif he would not broadcast it for my safety .
Jen says
@ expat
Another small thing. Robert shouldn’t be expected to incorporate solutions to this Muslim problem on *his* blog. Merely getting people to see what Islam teaches and how it manifests itself by real-life examples is a big enough undertaking on its own. Especially with probably being threatened constantly for holding these views in the first place.
You said: “As I said before, for most of us, the battle isn’t on the front line against ISIS. It is engaging and respecting those we share this world with. If our values are so superior to theirs, won’t they see it? In my life, I experience this daily.”
“Won’t they see it?” No, quite often they won’t see it. Even in spite of showing immense charity to some Muslims, it makes absolutely no difference to them. You can offer to lend them things, give them salt when they knock at your door asking for it, then the one day you aren’t able to produce the salt and they react to this with Muhammad-like anger, pulling a machete on you, claiming that you’re lying and threatening you because you’re an infidel. There are too many stories like this to mention. The pull of this religion and the manner in which it has shaped peoples’ world view is something worth highlighting to others. Personally, I am grateful to people like Robert and the rest who are brave enough to show their face and tell people about it.
If you are seeing positive results with the work you are doing, then fantastic. But Robert is also doing his own work which is good work. I don’t want to offer myself or others up as lambs to the slaughter because they didn’t understand some very obvious and fundamental problems with Islam and they weren’t prepared. With the un-holy things contained in Islam, I think it is barely capable of calling itself a religion. What is the purpose of a religion? If it doesn’t instruct you to behave positively towards all kinds of people, it’s worthless. Islam has shown time and time again to bring out the absolute worst in human behaviour. The fact that there are also beautiful aspects of ME culture, doesn’t really change this reality. So in response to what you said about people here wishing Islam could be “wiped off the face of the Earth,” there is a justifiable reason for that. Ideologies which don’t prove themselves to add sufficient value to humanity, and in fact detract immensely from the quality of life for so many people, don’t deserve to exist.
Mirren10 says
Whereabouts in East Africa do you live ?
Anywhere near Nairobi’s Westgate Mall ?
You’re a fool.
http://www.dw.de/kenya-remembers-westgate-mall-massacre-victims/a-17937697
Champ says
expat wrote:
I live in a place where I am known and certain Muslims stand outside my gate and try to intimidate me as I come and go. When I go running in the mornings, I am armed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
expat’s story just keeps getting better, and better! I’m trying to imagine a jogger who’s armed with a weapon, lol! 😀
Champ says
expat wrote:
Finally, I don’t questions Spencer, Horowitz and Geller and other’s motivations for the materials they choose to emphasize but they are making money off of your and my fears. I have come to the conclusion that they are fear mongers of the worst stripe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All we need to know about “expat” can be summed up in that one paragraph; everything else he wrote about himself is just, blah, blah, blah–boring!
Get. Lost.
Blitz2b says
expat,
It seems that you have completely lost your bearings. You are either a Muslim using taqiyya, or you are a thoroughly brainwashed infidel living among Muslims.
It is true that many Muslims have dreams and aspire to fulfil them, like most “normal” human beings do. It is these same dreams that cause millions leave their Islamic cesspools and venture to the west, where these dreams can become a reality.
But then what happens to these same Muslims when they come here and live comfortable lives with countless possibilities and benefits that the west provides? I’ll tell you what, Islam happens!….. that’s right!….. Islam is what is wrong with these poor souls. The nocuous message of Islam sinks into their senses, erodes them from within, causing their brains to reject right and bite the very hand that feeds them.
Robert, Geller, Horowitz, Wood, Steyn, Hirshi Ali, Wilders, and many many others are simply unpacking the true Islam for us all. The same Islam, that the media, and our politicians are hell-bent on proving “peaceful”. How dare you question their motives, and put a your stupid spin of financial benefits on their endeavors.
If you really care about the Muslims in your life, then quit patronizing their religion. Know, that Islam is the evil influence in their lives and try and persuade Muslims to come out of it rather than encouraging them to think that Islam is like every other religion in the world, with it’s shortcomings. That is a blatant lie. The more you believe in it the less you care about them as human beings being in it, and like you mentioned, the more chances of many of them becoming radicalized at some point in their lives.
Remember, If a Muslim follows the Koran to the letter, and implements it in his /her life, then according to the Koran, they are considered good Muslims. The everyday moderates are simply hypocrites their Koran warns about, the ones who dislike fighting. Yet these too have a role to play in the spreading of this cancer throughout the planet. These are breeders of the future Jahadists.
Get real, Have you not noticed, everywhere on the planet that Muslims inhabit, there is rioting, violence, injustice towards women and persecution of religious minorities? The fact of the matter is that Islam is here to dominate, not coexist.
That is simply the message that these brave souls whom you shamelessly slander with your derogatory tripe, are trying to convey. The sooner you accept this truth the better it is for you, or else you are merely a stumbling block, causing others to stray, by pandering the “religion of peace” lie.
Jen says
@expat
Everyone else has already replied with my own thoughts. I’m glad your experiences with Muslims have been so cuddly. A pity the many millions of victims of Islam all over the world aren’t able to share your views.
Non-Muslims *would* actually work with Muslims as their fellow human beings if they stopped calling this demonic book, a book from God and stopped calling evil Muhammad, who is not worthy of any respect from any decent human being, the prophet of God to be emulated. These moderate Muslims as you put it, don’t need to fight against fundamentalism in academia. If you strip away the evil in Islamic teachings and try to turn it into an actual religion of peace, it wouldn’t Islam. If they disagree so much with what is actually written, they should probably stop calling themselves Muslims. At this stage, they could actually become of some use to their fellow human beings in fighting this evil instead of pushing this false narrative along about it being peaceful and meanwhile, enabling millions more to fall victim to it. Personally, I wouldn’t be able to trust anyone, who having recognised that Islam teaches evil, spends their time trying to twist Islam into all kinds of shapes and putting it in holes where it doesn’t fit.
voegelinian says
“There are many moderate Muslims who are fighting against the fundamentalist in academia, in daily life and now even with arms as we have seen the first female fighter pilot in UAE participate in strikes against ISIS.”
Examples?
Grayman11b4v says
@expat…
Sooo, you have enjoyed some good conversations and relations with a few muslims… nice.
How many of those muslims have you asked to renounce ISIS and the methods ISIS employs? Of those how many have actually done so?
With islam embracing the life of muhammad as the “ideal man”, whose life and actions are to be emulated, I fail to see how fear is anything but a rational response.
Tenets of Taqiyya and Abrogation make islam and its followers impossible to trust.
Here is hoping you and your daughters remain safe.
hammar says
Good Job Pam!
But if people like obama and the democrat socialist party don’t recognize the enemy, the war will never end.
But the enemy is not the “little Sisters of the Poor”, or the Republicans, or your average American citizen. Wish someone would inform this golfer.
James allen Stamulis says
I love it when the left calls me an extremist it makes me smile and hold my head up high! Look what appeasement has done for the civilized world when it comes to Islam! All the modern day Paul Reveres on Islam are true patriots to me!
Kirkion says
Another symptom of the strange form of madness that is liberalism:
“If I’m on the Left, do I call out my friends when their anti-Zionism slides into anti-Semitism? ”
Because creating two names for views which are ideologically and substantively identical allows you to praise one and vilify the other.
Bezelel says
Pamela, you should be pleased to know the best they can throw at you is so easily discounted.
Ephesians 6:16
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Bezelel says
The term wicked is used in reference to wicker. Meaning not necessarily evil but twisted to it’s current state.What is truly sad is the Geller bashers who actually believe their own rubbish.
Tradewinds says
“What is truly sad is the Geller bashers who actually believe their own rubbish.”
Michaelson’s vicious screed against Geller is utter and complete rubbish. The Jewish Forward should fire him.
Blitz2b says
I choose my inner “Geller” any day, rather than the inner ” Michaelson” , that exudes cowardice and willful ignorance. Just the right traits that will bring to fuision the dreams of Islamic world domination…
Larry S says
Kudos to Robert on a superb takedown of Jay Michaelson and his ilk. I would hope to see this published in the Forward too allow its readers to judge the quality of the arguments presented, but I won’t hold my breath.
but they are making money off of your and my fears
Pamela has told me in private conversation that she is not paid for her efforts on behalf of AFDI. I will even hazard a guess that a fair amount of the money to support its activities has come out of her pocket. Accordingly, and believing Pamela’s claim, I claim that Michaelson is a sleazy, dishonest member of the fourth estate. He has plenty of company. While I do not really know how AFDI is funded, if my sense is anything close to accurate, then Pamela’s efforts are a considerable money-loser for her, not a means of accumulating wealth.
I submit that Michaelson’s grandchildren (not-so-secretly hoping he has none) will curse his his complaisance and dishonesty. But it all works out ok, you see, because his great-grandchildren will either be dhimmis who willingly submit to the superiority of Moslems, or will be Moslem themselves (assuming, that is, that they are permitted to survive).
I think I can see how people might find Pamela Geller to be irriratating. I simply do not understand the hostility, invective, and simple out-right deception, as Michaelson has engaged in, that is so frequently directed at her.
Tradewinds says
Why irritating? I don’t get it. What’s irritating is Jewish dhimmis like Michaelson who submit to Jew-hating Islam.
Brava Geller and Bravo Spencer! Truth-Tellers about barbaric hate-filled Islam.
Bezelel says
Irritant as in when you pour antiseptic on a festering wound.
Tradewinds says
Hmmm….still don’t get it, but never mind.
Kab says
boo sediment replies, and shame on you responses followed, with backing and support for Pamela on article responses to Jays “we are all Pamela Geller”. And her exposure on CNN, marks a big win for Pamela standing up for Humanity and freedom . Pamela is making noise and she is gaining exposure to tell the truth! Our champion for all of North America! Lefties are gonna get slammed once this is all out in the open!
Tradewinds says
Ben Affleck has revealed himself as a moron about Islam. Maher – you are RIGHT.
Blitz2b says
You’re right Tradewinds…. I believe this idiot Afleck, should quit playing “Reindeer games” with global politics and stick to what (he thinks) he knows – acting, although I never much cared for his skills as an actor as well.
He is obviously clueless about Islam and during the cross fire, shows his frustration with Maher and Harris. With his Islamic pandering, It seemed almost as if he would be considering embracing this wretched cult, some time in the near future.
What a moron!
Tradewinds says
Wow – you reminded me of that terrible movie! He has improved in his movies that’s for sure. I enjoyed “Argo” very much. It seems he should have learned about Islam from his own movie. But no, I guess.
I’m very surprised seeing him be such a knucklehead about Islam. I thought he was smarter than that. I think Matt Damon is. That Affleck is actually trotting out the leftist stand-by’s “racism” and “islamophobia” has caused him to drop considerably in my esteem. I’m wondering if I’ll see his future movies now.
Yes, Affleck is a panderer to a Death Cult. Ben, how can you be so stupid?
Abester says
Great article and rebuttal by Robert Spencer.Ironic isn’t it though how American Jews are predominately leftist and generally vote Democratic, to the point where the Democratic Party takes it for granted. Sadly they may awaken to late to the knowledge that Obama is an enemy of Israel and Jews.
Dennis Trisker says
As I “liberal” American Jew who has lived in “Muslim” countries, I applaud Pamela Geller for her speaking up and support her with donations in her work. These Jewish people who attack her, may they live in a Muslim country and then speak. Perhaps they are waiting for the extinguishing of the Jews; perhaps the gas chambers.
TH says
How about this for moderate muslims? When ISIS took over Mosul and began its campaign against the Christians to either force them to convert, or to pay the jizia or to be killed, what did their very own muslim neighbors whom they had known all their lives do? They told the ISIS jihadis which homes belonged to the Christians. How else did those foreigners knon on which houses to put thier “n”, meaning Nazarene, referring to Jesus?
How do I know this? I saw it on Youtube in an interview with a Christian man who had been able to escape to Lebanon. He also told the story of an 86 year old Christian woman who was expelled from her home by the ISIS savages. This woman needed medial treatment and it would not be surpising that she would have died by now. Others were stopped on the road and their few belongings ransacked by the savages and whatever jewlery and other valuables they were carrying were stolen. In one case, a person whose wedding ring they couldn’t remove had his or her finger cut off? Even more, some were carrying bottles of water (remember that it was almost 40 degrees celsius there in the desert). The savages took the bottles of water from them and emptied them before their eyes. Incredible? Not for the followers of Mahommed.
voegelinian says
“what did their very own muslim neighbors whom they had known all their lives do? They told the ISIS jihadis which homes belonged to the Christians. ”
Also:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/mosul-christian-our-muslim-neighbors-drove-us-out
Anon says
The level of detail and precision with which Robert Spencer explains these issues is indeed amazing and should be honored.