His guests, David Miliband and some other clown, rush to absolve Islam from any responsibility for this, going on to argue with him that this is a Pakistani problem. They do not, however, address Maher’s point, that this blasphemy death sentence was just affirmed by a high court in Pakistan. His implication was that the court is made up entirely of Muslims, and they are officials of an Islamic Republic; is it really likely that they are finding a death penalty for blasphemy in Islamic law when there is none there? Nonetheless, Maher is ill-equipped to defend his point, and so he doesn’t, and says at the end of the segment, whether sarcastically or not I don’t know, “Right. It’s all just about Pakistan.”
Maher had earlier said that the punishment for blasphemy was in the Qur’an. It can arguably be found in this verse: “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.” (5:33)
Also: “Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger – Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment” (33:57)
And: “If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism – you are no longer bound by your covenant with them – that they may refrain” (9:12).
There is more in the hadith. In one, Muhammad asked: “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” One of the Muslims, Muhammad bin Maslama, answered, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” When Muhammad said that he would, Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” Muhammad responded: “You may say it.” Muhammad bin Maslama duly lied to Ka’b, luring him into his trap, and murdered him. (Bukhari 5.59.369)
“A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.” (Sunan Abu-Dawud 38.4349)
In light of these passages and others like them, there is clear justification in Islam for a death penalty against blasphemy. Miliband and the other guy, and Maher as well, would have had a more illuminating and useful discussion if they had addressed this material and strategized on ways to pressure Pakistan and other Islamic states that enforce the death penalty for blasphemy to stop doing so. But such illuminating discussions are not afforded a platform in the mainstream media.
“Maher: Pakistan Punishes Blasphemy with Death, but I’m Wrong on Islam?,” by Josh Feldman, Mediaite, October 17, 2014:
Bill Maher has been getting a bit of flak recently for his views on Islam, and he followed up tonight by bringing up a case of a Pakistani high court upholding a woman’s death sentence for supposedly making derogatory remarks about Muhammad. Maher sarcastically said, “So yeah, Sam Harris and I were way off on that.”
Maher did get some pushback from guest David Miliband, who argued “it’s one thing to take on a religion, the other thing is to take on the people who are abusing the religion.” Maher shot back, “But if that’s popular with the people, they’re not that different.”…
Don McKellar says
All that Maher should have done is drive the point home that Saudi Arabia and many other moslem countries have the blasphemy death sentence. Then demand of his guests: So you know more about Islam than the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? “So you, David Miliband, know more about Islam than the Saudi and Pakistan judicial bodies and governments do. That’s what your’re saying. You know more than them and they’ve got it wrong.” And keep pushing them with that one inescapable truth until they back down and stop the crap.
JihadWatchJane says
So true!
David Moran says
“Nothing to do with Islam” reminds me of the old Benny Hill skit where Cyrano de Bergerac asks him, “What are you looking at?” Benny’s reply, “Not your nose!”
jihad3tracker says
I certainly appreciate Bill Maher telling the truth about Islam — his is a very lonely voice among big-fanbase media guys.
But doesn’t he have a few spare minutes every day or so to deepen his knowledge ????? Come on, already !!!
Stop retreating just when the jeep is traveling along at speed . . . Maybe the willing halt is due to subconscious anxiety about constantly being mindful of reality.
JihadWatchJane says
It takes great courage to take a stance that jeopardizes your credibility among your peers (or fans, additionally in his case), and risks labeling you as Islamophobic or racist (as I’ve routinely seen him called on, say, Salon.com) so Bill Maher is a liberal hero in my book.
Shane says
Maher should have replied that Pakistan did get the idea of death to blasphemers from the Koran and Muhammad’s teachings. These liberal twits who defend Islam are traitors to their countries and traitors to Western Civilization.
eid says
The mother lode of bad ideas lays another egg of anti Christian hatred.
Iesus filius dei. Islamo non parebo.
Jerry says
La Allah Illah YAHWE ue-Muhammad bin Sharmutta, bint Jinn Rassoul Shaitan
JihadWatchJane says
As a Brit left-winger who is pro-Israel and anti-Islam, and worst of all, married to an Israeli (which is exactly as if I was married to a Nazi, according to one former close friend) I have been ostracized by my friends and family for “going to the dark side”.
I, for one, am tremendously grateful to see a small but vocal rising tide of reason from the left, like Maher, who are willing to stop the P.C. bullshit on Islam and stand up for liberal principles.
SallyA says
Agreed, JihadWatch Jane. Maher has a loyal, large following among those who would otherwise not learn any truth of Islam’s deadly repressive politics. Plus the academic arguments against Islam tend to fall on deaf ears in the sound-bite world of the present younger generation; not saying that’s a good thing, just how it is. They get his sarcasm (as “so it’s just Pakistan”), and they like to draw their own conclusions. I know because of the young people in my own family and their friends. They’re not stupid. Their brains have been media/video-game/smart-phone trained to work differently, however, from their parents’. Maher does a great job reaching many of them. He’s one of the best voices against Islamic oppression out there in terms of how many people he has the ability to reach.
voegelinian says
Still, Maher’s tactics would be improve if he had at his fingertips the kind of facts Spencer adduces above (with a few more facts about various Islamic clerics and Islamic political leaders in the 20th and 21st centuries supporting death penalty for blasphemy for Islamic reasons). How many seconds does it take to rattle off a brief list of names and dates?
Jerry says
Rad and study Article Seven of the “Hamas Covenant”, in particular the portion quoted verbatim from the Hadith and you will find confirmation that the reason that there is no Peace in Gaza and in so called “Palestine” has nothing to do with “Occupation”, Zionism, or the West, but simply with the Jews of Israel not cooperating with Islam’s genocidal agenda against, firstly, all Jews, and then all Christians, Hindus, Atheists, all other non-Muslims and even against all Muslims who do not conform exactly with each Islamic stream or cult.
What is overlooked by most Westerners is Islam is not a true religion.
Islam is a fake religion invented by a Desert Warlord, Caravan and Oasis Raider and Robber, Slave and Sex-Slave Hunter, Trader and Trafficker, Murderer, Torturer, Rapist and Paedophile.
Islam was invented as a recruitment tool for Mohammed evil, criminal activities.
By creating a “legal system” – Sharia, he criminalised all differences and dissent as religious and legal excuses for his crimes.
The promise of four fifth of the loot if his thugs succeeded and lived and imaginary rewards in an imaginary paradise was the incentive.
It worked well for the Criminal Islam (which is most of Islam) when there were Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or Atheists, or Pagans around to be raided and plundered, but what do (former “Moderate”) Muslims do when they run out of those targets?
It is still the incentive for Sunnies in ISIL to turn on their Shiites neighbours and torture, rape, murder and plunder those with whom they lived in peace for decades.
It works just the same as an excuse for Shiites to do the same to the Sunnies when the opportunity arise.
Islam is a most malignant religion, political ideology and practice and it is a clear and present danger to all non-Muslims, as well as to Muslims.
Lee says
Well said JWJ! Another leftist admirer and supporter of Robert Spencer here. The way our political parties have been co-opted and infected by scumbags and neo-Nazis who collaborate with arch-reactionary 7th century Islamofascism is beyond a disgrace, and effectively disenfranchises humanitarian leftists & the bulk of the working-class.
Despite most journalists and politicians (of all persuasions) promoting and protecting Islam, there is (as you point out) a rising tide of outrage, helped by great writers like Mr.Spencer, and the internet of course means the elites can’t stop our numbers growing.
jewdog says
It’s pathetic that the public has so few good resources for learning about Islam: academia has been co-opted by the PC crowd (and Gulf benefactors), the media is largely clueless, and the government is hopeless. That leaves outlier talk shows and some private freelancers. Maher is a smart, decent guy, a bit out of his depth on the subject, who is trying to deliver a serious message in a late-night comedic setting better suited to goofs and gags. I don’t envy him.
Ron Barak says
The public may find enlightenment at:
http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/
http://www.danielpipes.org/
http://falkland-islands.tumblr.com/post/99482598300/islam-the-quran-and-the-five-pillars-all-without
know-it-all says
“The other clown” is none other than David Frum. I suspect Robert pretends not to recognize this mastermind of the Bush administration out of contempt. 😉
voegelinian says
Back in 2008, Andrew Bostom published this overview of the dispute David Frum had back then with Bostom, Spencer and Bat Ye’or:
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/01/11/david-frum%E2%80%99s-axilla-of-ignorance-2/
Frum is one more “expert” who claims to have the expertise to pronounce upon what is Islam and what is Islamophobia, but whose analysis seems to refer not to the actual substance in question but rather to an artificial construct delineated and defined by the needs of his paradigm (the PC MC paradigm, to be specific).
One feature among many of the Islam Hologram Frum purveys (what Spencer calls “this Qur’an-As-Silly-Putty view”) is illuminated by a quote Bostom provides:
Holy books are like mirrors that reflect us back to ourselves. The peaceful man finds words of reconciliation, the vindictive woman reads a summon to revenge. The loving hear calls to love more deeply; the hateful are confirmed in their hate. It is not the text that makes the religion what it is; it is the reader.
This is virtually the same view as the one the snake-oil salesman Reza Aslan tries to soft-soap, as revealed by a recent article on him here:
Reza Aslan: Islam and all other religions can be “molded and shaped into whatever form a worshiper requires”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/10/reza-aslan-islam-and-all-other-religions-can-be-molded-and-shaped-into-whatever-form-a-worshiper-requires
jewdog says
If the colleges, the media and the government were all doing their jobs, in the sense of purveying accurate information about Islam, there would be no need to depend on fleeting glimpses of realistic insights on late-night comedy shows.
KURT HANSON says
Even were Mr. Maher to read all of Mr. Spencer’s books, he still wouldn’t be equipped to respond with rebuttals in the direct manner Mr. Spencer could. This is a problem. Not the lack of knowledge that is gleaned from a reading of Spencer’s books, the lack of conviction while being forthright.
I believe Maher’s tact is good, though. Just throw the thoughts out to the audience without being excited and judgmental while doing so. Eventually time will bring more people to realize what Islam is all about. But the real rats, the wealthy Islamists who collaborate with Western politicians to get what they want, us peons can’t get a word in to this gated-community. This crowd can do more damage. They’re almost unstoppable.
Dave J says
Would it not be reasonable to have an “Islam 101” educational program made widely available in the lands of the liberal infidels?
After all, we are dealing with a pathological death cult that has openly declared war on the West, announced its intention to establish their sharia law worldwide and published pictures of the ISIS flag flying over the White House and the Vatican.
One that, with the aid of Arab funding, ransom, theft, captured weaponry and a well produced media campaign seems to be having considerable success toward that goal.
But we can’t be bothered to learn a little more about their philosophy and tactics, preferring instead to accept the bland “religion of peace” descriptions offered by politicians and actors who seem distinctly uninformed about the “teachings”.
Are we so intimidated that there are only these few voices speaking out but a much larger contingent of sympathizers and apologists trying to silence them?
Lord Saint Fire says
I must admit, the political correctness in this society is getting ridiculous. I mean, Leftists can’t even admit it when an ideology is hurting people. I swear, such stupid people… they remind me of the movie Irobot.
Renee says
The TV host is mistaken by saying Asia Bibi insulted the prophet, she did not. She was drinking from the same bucket of water as muslim women, they quarrelled and to get rid of her, they claimed she blasphemed the prophet. This happens in Pakistan all the time to other believers than Mohammedans that have a conflict of interests. Also, note that two people defending Asia Bibi were murdered and the murderers were hailed as heros by the court and not punished. Pray for Asia Bibi. She is not just a case to prove that sharia is awful, but she is a woman of flesh and blood who in the next 30 days needs petitions and prayer for her release, being accused and convicted falsely, so she can be the mother of 5 children again. Sentenced to death over a bucket of water……
RCCA says
“Irshad Manji book tour in Indonesia runs into trouble with Islamic ‘thugs’”
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/10/irshad-manji-book-tour-in-indonesia-runs-into-trouble-with-islamic-thugs/?__federated=1
More importantly, here’s a very interesting discussion between Sam Harris and Irshad Manji regarding the role in media to tell the truth: http://youtu.be/o0BH6yQXNHo
RCCA says
But to put the whole discussion into perspective here are the numbers: Ben Shapiro: The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority http://youtu.be/g7TAAw3oQvg
Thinking From First Principles says
Let it begin here and now.
We declare the death penalty for apostasy to be a crime against humanity, and call upon all mankind to stand together in repudiation of this crime.
We declare the death penalty for those considered “infidels” by any religion to be a crime against humanity, and call upon all mankind to stand together in repudiation of this crime.
We further declare any penalty, legal or social, for either apostasy or being considered an “infidel” by any religions, to be a crime against humanity, and call upon all mankind to stand together in repudiation of this crime.
We call upon both Bill Maher and Ben Affleck to join us a signatories to this declaration.
Champ says
We declare islam a scrapheap of evil rubbish! ..hear, hear!
Jeff says
Maher forgot to mention that the whole incident stemmed from the Christian woman (Asia Bibi) taking a drink of water from a “Muslim only” well. The USA should be doing something to free this woman and bring her here, but Obama seems to agree with the Pakistani court ruling.
StoryBrit says
David Milliband is brother of the leader of the main opposition party in the UK, Ed milliband, in fact he lost out on that job to his brother, then went to the US to work there. This is the state our main parties are in with what he said.
rubbish its nothing to do with islam.
Fact: the woman she argued with went and got an imam, he offered the woman a choice convert or be charged.
This is all about islam, and Islam is the number one threat in the world today.
Guy Macher says
The other clown is David Frum.
Charli Main says
PC, left wing liberals AKA turkeys singing the praises of and voting for Christmas.
These hug-a-Muslim clowns will be at the top of the Muslim chop list.
There is no diversity or liberalism in Islam.
Walter Sieruk says
That Pakistan as well as other Muslim countries have such “blasphemy laws” is still further proof the the foundations and doctrines of Islam are so very weak that this religion can’t stand up to or hold up to criticism.
Allan Mandrowski says
I consider myself left of the political spectrum. However, I’m vehemently opposing Islam and its violent and inhumane tendencies.
I’m very glad to see that people like Bill Maher and Sam Harris are voicing their legitimate concerns about Islam. They are 100% right that it should be scrutinised, just like any religion is being scrutinised.
The mere fact that comedians and people around the globe are afraid to ridicule or critically analyse Islam says it all about this religion and especially about its adherents.
It saddens me that feminists, many left wing intellectuals and a good chunk of the general population are so ignorant on the topic of Islam, yet talk about it – in a defensive pavlov reflex – as if they have any authority on it and can decide for us that it is benign.
Separation of Church and State. This also means separation of mosque and state and every liberal, every left leaning person should identify with that and if not with that then at least for the sake of gender equality.
Fortunately more and more left leaning people also realise that Islam is a problem and I’m glad Bill Maher gives the topic such public coverage. I just wish that someone like Robert Spencer would be invited to his show, as Robert really knows how to articulately and succinctly put the problems of Islam on display and then also backs it up with facts.
Wellington says
Welcome to the fight, Allan. I am a conservative, but Islam makes no distinction between liberals and conservatives, Hindus or Christians, Jews or Buddhists, agnostics or atheists, et al. Islam despises all of us (the “People of the Book” rubbish notwithstanding) and those averring otherwise are either demonstrating their ignorance or their mendacity. As Bertrand Russell, an old-style liberal from long ago, observed in his work, The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism, Islam is the only major religion which is totalitarian in structure and ideology. That’s why Russell compared Islam to Marxism and fascism, all three of which Russell observed, are enemies of freedom.
I’m sure we would have sundry differences, Allan, on taxes, foreign affairs, how much government should exist in our lives, etc., but on the matter of Islam and what it intends for us all, I like to think that liberals and conservatives should be in unison on this matter. Again, welcome to the fight of fight in our time, i.e., opposing the one religion which considers itself “the master faith” and which wants to dominate all the world. Let’s not let it.
Allan Mandrowski says
Thanks Wellington. I wholeheartedly agree that we are in this fight together. And I’m glad to have found this website, which is chockfull of information, which allows me to present my arguments backed up with some necessary facts.
It is true that Islam is a totalitarian ideology similar to the totalitarian ideologies of communism and fascism.
At times it’s an uphill battle for myself amongst likeminded people, but I have to honestly say that more and more people start to wake up and realise the dangers that Islam poses to their ways of life and to (Western) societies in general. However, it’s still too few and therefore I’m hoping that left-leaning people like Bill Maher and Sam Harris keep giving the topic of Islam the critical attention that it deserves. It deserves to be critically talked about, based on observation, facts and logical reasoning.
We might have our differences over certain subjects, but I’ll put them all aside if it means we can defeat the common enemy of our times: Islam.
Just like Bill Maher, I also think that not all cultures are equal and I would like to believe that Western culture is far ahead and above the backwards cultures of the Middle East and this includes Islam.
voegelinian says
The problem with Leftism and PC MC (two distinct, although related, paradigms) is that, in the minds of their adepts, the very nature of the data of Islam — if followed through with conscientious dot-connection — threatens the core values upon which they stand, which may be summed up with one word, “diversity”.
This threat furthermore is joined at the hip with an irrational fear of racism and genocide (of course the potential for racism & genocide itself is to be feared and avoided at all cost, but not when it’s not there — hence the irrationality here). In the minds of the Leftists and the PC MCs, any criticism of Islam, and of Muslims following Islam, inexorably leads to racism and genocide. One major reason for this is that the alarming data of Islam opens up a problem that is systemic and metastasizing, indicating therefore an open-ended demographic which cannot be contained by anxiously delimited, artificial constructions such as a “Tiny Minority of Extremists”, but rather logically fans out to taint uncontrollable swaths of Muslims. The Leftist and the PC MC recoils at the implications of this, and reacts with the spastic reflex we have come to know all too well: “Are you saying ALL Muslims are extremist? Do you hate ALL Muslims? Do you want to kill ALL Muslims?” Etc. In order therefore to interdict this dreaded open-ended trajectory, the Leftist and the PC MC tries to cut it off at the pass, at the knees, nip it in the bud, at the root, and simply forbid the thought crime of criticizing Islam and Muslims at all.
The nature of the data, however, continues to metastasize and escalate, and as long as humans love the truth, there is hope that Reason will eventually prevail. The only real question is whether it will before — or after — a few million of our men, women and children are mass-murdered by Muslims in the coming decades.
Tim says
Allan, here’s a nifty shortcut for you available on Amazon for less than $5.00: “The Koran 100 Versus”. When ISIS first appeared, cutting off heads, I turned to my copy and found the 3 Koran versus that justify the horror in 3 or 4 minutes. It’s like having Robert Spencer on your coffee table. Welcome aboard
Champ says
“…Islam makes no distinction between liberals and conservatives, Hindus or Christians, Jews or Buddhists, agnostics or atheists, et al. Islam despises all of us (the “People of the Book” rubbish notwithstanding) and those averring otherwise are either demonstrating their ignorance or their mendacity.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So true, Wellington! …and mohammedans even hate their own. And they mourn when a precious *girl* is born into their family. Wow what can I say, islam is wholly evil.
Take care, my friend 🙂
Wellington says
Thanks for your comment, Champ. Appreciated as always.
As for girls born into a family, they should be as welcomed as boys. No less. No more. No ideology or belief system which avers otherwise, to the extent that it contends otherwise, should be accorded respect. Guess this excludes the Islamic belief system. But then, assuming one has proper knowledge and common sense, a person has to exclude the Islamic belief system on a full score of mattters, not the least being the matter of liberty, where Islam fails completely; oh yes, dismally.
Hope all is well with you and family, Champ, including that newest born (William, no?) among you. May you have a Muslim-free day tomorrow.
UnEasyOne says
Hear, Hear!
Wellington welcomed me – another leftest – also.
You aren’t the only one. If more on the right were as tolerant of us lefties as Wellington, we AMERICANS could begin the process of uniting to defeat this crazy evil ideology that threatens us all.
Wellington says
Millibrand and Frum are indeed clowns. Bill Maher, meanwhile, should add knowledge to his sound instincts about Islam. In short, Maher needs to do some additional reading about Mo’s creed. After all, knowledge is power. Robert Spencer’s books would be a great place to start.
I have a question for anyone who cares to answer it. It’s this: It is my understanding that all the Islamic schools of theology, both Sunni and Shiite, you know, the Hanafi, the Hanbali, the Shafi, etc., require death or severe punishment for criticizing or mocking Islam, the Koran or Mohammed. Is this correct? Are there any which don’t? Anyone?
voegelinian says
I don’t know the answer to your question; but I’ve read enough to know that Islam is a jungle of complexity — which does not absolve it from mandating evil. And indication of this jungle may be gleaned from this Islamic Q&A description of the “proper” Muslim vis-a-vis the four schools (from a website to which Nuh Ha Mim Keller — the convert to Islam translator of the “Reliance of the Traveler” — contributes):
Q 6. How many “Mazhabs” [“schools”] are found at present in the Muslim world?
A. According to a saying of the Holy Prophet [the] “Sawaad-e-Azam” (vast majority of Muslims following Sunnah) is the only sect which would find good (salvation) in this world and the next world. This biggest sect of the believers is “Naaji”(blessed one,deserving paradise) i.e. “Ahle-Sunnat-wa-Jama’at” comprising all four “Mazhabs” (Hanfi, Maaliki, Shaafa’i and Hanbli). It has been a practice of the whole Muslim Ummah (community of the Holy Prophet) since the time of Taba’ Taaba’een (successors to companions’ successors) until now that he who is not himself a “Mujtahid” conforms to (follow the suit of) any “Mujtahid”. That’s why, the prominent “Ulama”, “Fuzala”, “Mohaddiseen” and “Mufassireen” (Muslim scholars, the doctors well-versed in traditions and experts in Qur-aanic exegises) conformed to any of the four Imaams putting aside their valuable reseaches and became, ipso facto, “Muqallid” (conformists, followers).
Hadrat Imaam Bukhari, Imaam Muslim (may Allah shower His mercy on them) and other scholars, doctors of traditions,narratives whose “Ahaadees” books are considered to be the most authentic in the Muslim world did “Taqleed” (conformed to) throughout their lives and so did the great saints like Hadrat Ghous-e-Azam and Hadrat Khowaja Gharib Nawaz (may Allah have mercy on them). In brief, none but only the said four Imaams have to be conformed to, even though his “beliefs” be in line with any Qur-aanic verse, saying of the Holy Prophet or sayings and actions of the Prophet’s companions. The one who is out of the fold of any of the four “Mazhab” is a misguided, misguider, disbelieving and heretic one because he makes his own way in the religion unlike all other Muslims. An “Hadees” in this context says: the believer who separated himself from the major sect of Muslims has, indeed, strayed for hell.
Q 7. What about he who claims to follow all the four “Mazhabs”?
A. The one who does not follow the suit of (conform to) any of the four Imaams but claims to be a follower of all the four, actually tries to hoodwink and inveigle people into unruliness. Acting upon the directives of all four “Mazhabs” means that these “Mazhabs” of the great leaders of Ahle Sunnat have some un-Islamic things and thus one Mazhab can not be followed but instead the lawful things of all “Mazhabs” be chosen and followed discarding the unlawful ones. Such an absurd notion which brings disgrace and disrepute to all Muslim leaders and scholars who not only did “Taqleed” themselves of only one of the four Imaams throughout their lives but also enjoined their followers to do the same makes the claiment of this nonsense himself a misguided and disbeliever and he is one of those who are out of the Islaamic-fold. Following all the four “Mazhabs” simultaneously is like: there are four straight ways leading to a set goal and people adopt any of them to reach the destination but a man shouts and advises them not to adopt only one way but take all the four to attain to the goal. Nobody heeds to him and continue their journey to the destination having chosen only one from them. Being frustrated, he himself goes ahead with his silly plan…
Wellington says
Thanks for that, voegelinian. Well, just as you can have energy with no purpose (e.g., a multitude of marching bands at halftime of a football game) so it appears you can have complexity with no purpose, which, I would argue, you can find time and time again in Muslimworld—–as provided by you here.
You know, while it is important on the one hand to attempt to figure out what nut-job ideologies (e.g., Nazism, Islam, Marxism) are saying, on the other hand it is perfectly reasonable, even defensible, to conclude, what the hell, why should I waste my time on the nuances of utter nonsense? A tough call at times to say the least. I remain torn on this one.
voegelinian says
At the end of the day, the complexity of Islam (“diversity” to the PC MCs) either diffuses the problem into a marginal problem, or it’s irrelevant to the fact that the problem is a dangerous emergency.
Once we the West decide to regard the complexity as the latter, some of that complexity may be useful to know, in terms of “know-your-enemy” tactics.
As a side note, it’s interesting to speculate that the jungle of complexity that is the Islamic complex of laws (which is everything to Muslims) may somehow have the paradoxical effect of having, so to speak, centripetal force through centrifugal methods. There is no center to Islamic authority — there is in fact a jungle of complexity of near-chaotic proportions seething with internecine decentralization — and yet, there is a remarkable degree of a unity of fanaticism.
Jay Boo says
voegelinian , you have certainly done your homework well but, rather than focus too much on the convoluted logic that oozed out of the un-Holy Prophet’s brain and of his followers, consider instead Islam’s (motives).
Islam’s motives are simple.
voegelinian says
I’m pointing to the complexity to note that it’s there; I don’t (as I already made clear) advocate that we assume it somehow exculpates or diminishes or dilutes the problem of Islam, as PC MCs tend to do by appealing to the “diversity” of Islam that is somehow “not a monolith” — thus allowing them the opportunity to break Islam apart into pieces: a Tiny Minority of Extremists over here, a Vast Majority of Harmless Muslims over there. Much as some Jihad Watchers do, in fact.
UnEasyOne says
I am sure that you know more about the subject than I, but doesn’t simple logic dictate that if there were actually such schools or verses to justify them, you wouldn’t have to ask about it here?
I have no evidence, but I think I can say with confidence that what you are looking for doesn’t exist. If it did, everybody would know.
I stand ready to admit my error the instant some peace loving muslim submits evidence to the contrary.
R Cole says
There is not much fuss made about Pakistan’s blasphemy cases – because Arabia puts so many people to death – the tea leaf reader gets the same sentence as the axe murderer. Both are beheaded.
It’s all so ISIS:
We can remember the Saudi man – who tweeted that he did not respect Muhammad and was extradited from Malaysia – reportedly on an international arrest warrant [later refuted] – back to Arabia – to be imprisoned.
How many Saudi apostate from Islam – have been exiled. And only because the world is watching – they were not put under the sword.
Arabia vs Pakistan
If we are focusing on Pakistan cases – with the exception of a few – it probably means that Arabia is better at PR in this respect – than Pakistan’s untidy mess of a blasphemy case load. [Where the accused are openly threatened in court – by prosecution lawyers – and even judges can face threats.]
But also the Saudi court is held in private session – and unlike Pakistan which has two variations of the blasphemy laws on the books [a selection]- the Saudi courts are reliant on the judgement of of the Imams – whose judgement – along with Islamic laws – can at times be subject to mood.
In one instance where a ‘girl and her boyfriend’ were both raped by a gang – was sentenced by a Saudi court not only to be jailed [for being unaccompanied with a male] but further to be whipped for speaking to the press about her plight]
Dipping their toe into ISIS water
In actual fact although the death sentence has been applied – Pakistan has never put anyone to death for blasphemy. But 25 year sentences for trumped up charges – tried in Kangaroo courts – is also horrendous.
Twenty five year imprisonment for touching the Koran – with unwashed hands as an ‘unclean’ Christian man and wife – is a case in point.
:: ::
I’m So Sorry
David Miliband’s former Labour government wanted to introduce ‘aspects’ of Sharia law in the UK. And his brother Ed is still apologizing to everyone for calling them racists.
Possibly still can’t get his head around the fact that the downtrodden Muslim proletariat – want Shari’a law the world over.
Jovial Joe says
Um, no one seems to have noticed what Milliband actually said: ‘Now hang on a minute, Sharia was introduced into Pakistan in the 80s so we have to be careful about the history here’… Meaning, what, that ‘sharia’ was invented in the 80s? Without realising it (and without Maher and anyone else realising it too it seems)Milliband just confirmed Maher’s point, that Pakistan’s blasphemy law is derived from the Quran. Tah dah!
eduardo odraude says
I noticed that too.
Anon says
Maher’s guests and clowns, for them to blame Islam, the problem doesn’t yet meet the threshold for the liberal belief system which is: everyone’s been killed and there’s no-one left to say anything.
Also, for newer JW readers, just how “small” is the issue?
Here are some figures based on Islamic-majority counties in three areas, the Middle East, South Asia and North Africa. Ten Muslim-majority countries, the data is from Pew Research, from 2010 and 2013, links below.
Should Sharia Apply to All Citizens? – The percentage that believe this is 46.5% based on ten Muslim majority countries in the Middle East, South Asia and North Africa. Based on the Muslim population of those countries, that results in 243 million people (at a minimum) believing that Sharia law should apply to all citizens.
Penalty for Converting to Another Faith – The percentage that believe this is 67.60% based on ten Muslim majority countries in the Middle East, South Asia and North Africa. Based on the Muslim population of those countries, that results in 353 million people (at a minimum) believing in the death penalty for leaving Islam.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
duh_swami says
Once more with feeling…The Quran is a dark and evil fairy tale whispered into the ear of a psychotic Arab, by an incoherent angel named Gabriel…
No Mahoundian, and certainly no low information kuffar can adequately explain Gabriel. Many kuffar, like Bills guests, probably never heard of Gabriel as the ‘bringer of the book’.
Discrediting Gabriel is pulling Islam out by its roots.
Jay Boo says
Hey!
Wait a minute.
Bill suggests it is Islam.
David Miliband counters “in the 1980’s Pakistan went back to sharia”
So then, sharia returning to Pakistan is the problem not Islam?????
How do they get away with such insanity?
zichronot says
Article 264 of the Islamic Penal Code. “Article 262 of the Islamic Penal Code states that if a person insults the Prophet of Islam, his punishment is death. But in Article 264, it explicitly says that if a suspect merely claims in court that he said the insulting words in anger, in quoting someone, or by mistake, his death sentence will be converted to 74 lashes.”
1- Jihad defined as “to war against all non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
3- The head of an Islamic State (Caliph) cannot be charged, let alone be punished for serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape (Hudood cases) – Codified Islamic Law Vol 3 # 914C of and page 188 of Hedaya the Hanafi manual.
4- A percentage of Zakat (alms) must go towards jihad.
5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph in one case, if he rejects Islam.
8- A Muslim who leaves Islam (apostate) must be killed immediately.
9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of : a) an apostasy b) an adulterer c) a highway robber. Making vigilante street justice and honor killing acceptable.
10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim.
11- Sharia never abolished slavery and sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave. Slavery still exists amongst Arab Muslims.
12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, for sins like killing, adultery, prostitutions; and other Quranic corporal punishments like: amputation of limbs (chopping hands and feet), floggings, beatings and other forms of cruel and unusual punishments even for the sins like: stealing, sexual promiscuity, robbery, burglary etc.
13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia (pay Zizzya: poll tax) if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their own religious scriptures, or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. However, Muslims can curse, criticize or say anything derogatory they like to the religions of others.
15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or a bathhouse attendant. Women in such low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
18- A non-Muslim cannot rule even over a non-Muslims minority.
19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls under Sharia. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and consummated at age 8 or 9.
21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
23- There is no common property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits. Sister gets half of what brother gets.
25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and wife has no right to divorce him even if he is polygamous.
26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.
27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and also with women captured in battle (concubines), and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man; that is, two women equal to one man.
29- A woman looses custody if she remarries.
30- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
31- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Some schools of Sharia allow the face and some don’t.
32- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife caught in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women since he “could be married to the woman he was caught with.”
33-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory and is known as Al Taqiyya (Islamic Deception). That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam’s commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.
The above are clear-cut laws in Islam decided by great Imams after years of examination and interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Mohammed’s life.
34. The perpetrators of genocide, mass rape and plunder will not be punished if they repent – Codified Islamic Law Vol 1 # 13.
35. To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses. Women’s testimony is not accepted – Pakistan’s Hudood ordnance 7 of 1979 amended by 8B of 1980. Thousands of raped women and girls in many countries have been charged with Zena (physical relations outside marriage) and punished by Sharia courts for want of witnesses.
36. All modern music including sexually explicit music of any kind is strictly prohibited and punishable by Islamic Sharia code of justice. Only Islamic songs are allowed.
profitsbeard says
If Maher had started saying this right after 9/11, including reading the Koran and Hadiths, maybe he wouldn’t have so much resistance now.
Took him over a decade to get some guts.
Better late than never.
Sura ’nuff.
eduardo odraude says
Here’s one of the authoritative hadiths where Muhammad says no punishment for killing someone who insults him:
http://quotingislam.blogspot.com/2011/06/muhammad-said-there-is-to-be-no.html
JIMJFOX says
Miliband et al would be easily embarrassed had Maher raised the fact that UK blasphemy law was abolished….
IN JUNE 2008!!!!
fair_dinkum says
Bill Maher is no dummy. and hes brave.