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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Elliot Abrams: When presidents say Islam is a religion of peace, “the average American thinks this is crap”

Nov 21, 2014 11:32 am By Robert Spencer

Abrams_dlIt is good to see that this discussion took place at all, as usually it is foreclosed with charges that even to broach it is “Islamophobic.” But as usual, it was held on a quite superficial level, with Michael Gerson throwing out knee-jerk moral equivalence arguments that don’t appear to have been addressed adequately. Neither Gerson nor Abrams appear to have gotten into the actual teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah, and without that, discussions like these will always whirl around in the ether with attempts to compare the virulence of various atrocities and acts of violence, and get nowhere.

“Should Presidents Call Islam a ‘Religion of Peace?’ Two George W. Bush Officials Debate,” by Napp Nazworth, Christian Post, November 21, 2014:

MIAMI BEACH — Two former George W. Bush administration officials, Elliot Abrams and Michael Gerson, debated Monday whether it is appropriate for presidents to call Islam a religion of peace.

“What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it’s very important that the United States government shut-up about that question,” Abrams, senior fellow for Middle Eastern Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, declared at the Ethics and Public Policy Center’s Faith Angle Forum.

“It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, ‘Islam is a religion of peace,'” continued Abrams, who served as deputy assistant to the president and deputy national security adviser.

Abrams was speaking on a panel, “Religious Conflict and the Future of the Middle East,” with Shadi Hamid, a fellow with the Project on U.S. Relations with the Islamic World in the Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution.

The “real response” to Bush, and later President Barack Obama, declaring the Islam is a religion of peace, he said, should be “where is their theology degree from?”

“For American government officials to be telling Muslims, ‘I know real Islam’ … is ridiculous,” he added. “… It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. … For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool’s errand.”

Abrams’ comments came during the question and answer session and were not part of his prepared remarks. The whole session lasted about three hours and he made similar remarks later in the session in response to another reporter’s question.

When presidents say Islam is a religion of peace, “the average American thinks this is crap,” he said, because the average American reasons that “the only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don’t tell me it’s all wonderful.”

It would be better, Abrams continued, for political leaders to ask, “is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what’s the debate within Islam?” Because, “that’s a real description of a real problem,” but, “saying ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ isn’t [realistic].”

After those remarks, Gerson asked for the floor to offer a different point of view.

“We do praise Christianity as a religion of peace on Christmas, we do praise Judaism as a religion of courage on Hanukah and other things. We praise Islam. And every president from now on will praise Islam on religious holidays because their are millions of peaceful citizens who hold this view,” he said.

Gerson was a speechwriter for Bush and may have helped craft the statements that Abrams found objectionable. He now works as a columnist for The Washington Post.

Presidential statements about Islam as a peaceful religion is not only proper due to the many peaceful Muslims who are American citizens, Gerson continued, it is also “theologically sophisticated” because presidents should promote the cause of those who hold values consistent with democratic governance, and this is not unique to Islam.

“Every religious tradition,” he said, “has forces of tribalism and violence in its history, background and theology; and, every religious tradition has sources of respect for the other. And you emphasize, as a political leader, one at the expense of the other in the cause of democracy.

“That is a great American tradition that we have done with every religious tradition that comes to the United States — include them as part of a natural enterprise and praise them for their strongly held religious views, and emphasize those portions that are most compatible with those ideals.”

Abrams countered that Islam is different due to its relationship to terrorists. By calling Islam a “religion of peace” after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Abrams said, Bush was “basically lying about the problem,” because, … the terrorists “view themselves as good Muslims.”

“How is that exclusively a problem with Islam?” Gerson responded, then mentioned other religious groups, such as Christians in Nigeria, who commit violence in the name of their faith.

Where?

Part of the role of political leaders, Gerson reiterated, is to acknowledge the parts of every religious tradition that “encourage respect for the other.”

Abrams conceded Gerson’s point but maintained that presidents are not doing that when they call Islam a religion of peace because the presidential statements lack the nuance of Gerson’s argument.

“I think you’re being much more sophisticated than the political statements that have been made, which are blanket statements that say, ‘this has nothing to do with Islam,'” he told Gerson.

“Well, it does have something to do with Islam … even if it is a perversion of it, it has something to do with it, and the sophistication of that statement I think would be interesting to hear from a political leader, but we have not had that.”

A similar debate between actor Ben Affleck and comedian Bill Maher recently gained national attention. Affleck accused Maher of being “gross,” “disgusting” and “racist” for claiming that most Muslims are unsupportive of Democratic norms.

That debate, however, saw both sides paint Islam with broad brushes. The Faith Angle Forum panel, on the other hand, highlighted the complicatedness of the religion and politics issues within Islam and especially in the Middle East.

“It was nice to see Ben Affleck defend Muslims,” said Hamid, an American Muslim, during his prepared remarks. “It was well intentioned and a lot of us were cheering him on because no one defends Muslims in the public sphere. At the same time, Ben Affleck’s analysis was a bit superficial. … I do think Islam is distinctive in how it relates to politics but I don’t think that is necessarily good or bad, I think it just is.”

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Comments

  1. Michael Copeland says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 11:41 am

    “There is a problem within Islam”, said Tony Blair.
    http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/home/root/news-libertygb/6183-extremism-there-is-a-problem-within-islam

  2. Michael Copeland says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 11:44 am

    “We praise Islam”, says Abrams.
    Who’s “we”?

  3. Beagle says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 11:46 am

    “Part of the role of political leaders, Gerson reiterated, is to acknowledge the parts of every religious tradition that “encourage respect for the other.”

    Abrams conceded Gerson’s point but maintained that presidents are not doing that when they call Islam a religion of peace because the presidential statements lack the nuance of Gerson’s argument.”
    — —

    Can anyone cite anything in Islam which shows respect for other religions? Yes, the Meccan Sura 109 says non-Muslims may keep their religion. That’s not respect. Even then, before his intermediate caravan raiding stage, Muhammad was plotting to convert the entire planet to Islam.

  4. eib says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 12:03 pm

    Islam is profane, a mockery of God, love, and civil society. Mr. Abrams, you are dull.

    • Dawid ben Haggai says

      Nov 27, 2014 at 7:30 am

      Mr. Abrams is full of malarkey, not to say something else less appropriate.

  5. Bob Smith says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 12:07 pm

    Islam is clearly flawed.

    It is an internal Islamic theological structural flaw that causes the social dysfunction and violence associated with Islam.

    We would do ourselves and the world a big service by putting Islamic theology under the public discussion microscope.

    Muslims won’t like it. Too bad. Since when do we stop looking for solutions to problems because the solutions “hurt someones feelings”?

    Without Islamic reformation – Islamic violence will continue – just like the last 1,400 years.

    Deal with it now. There may still be time.

    • john spielman says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 4:04 pm

      islam CANNOT be “reformed” without admitting that muhammed-pbuh* was a demon possessed mass murderer, thief, liar, misogynist and a degenerate pedophile pervert! and that is something muslims will REFUSE to admit!
      * pbuh- perpetual banishment unto hell!

    • Jaladhi says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 5:55 pm

      Islam is just evil, evil, evil to the core . It will never reform as no Muslim has guts to change Mo/allah’s words and diktats. Other Muslims will kill him or them if anybody even raises this question about the “perfect religion and man!!

    • mad-aussie says

      Nov 22, 2014 at 4:41 am

      Islam is Flawed! Thats got to be the understatement of the century. Islam is a Discusting,Murderous, Pedophilic,Raping,Lying, Cheating,Terrorising,Beastial, Homophobic,(while practicing homo sexual acts) Women Hating,Child Killing Idiology Hiding behind religion. It needs to be wiped off the face of the earth along with its Brain Damaged Zombie Followers. FOREVER.

  6. Boston Tea Party says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 12:22 pm

    “How is that exclusively a problem with Islam?” Gerson responded, then mentioned other religious groups, such as Christians in Nigeria, who commit violence in the name of their faith.”

    **

    Exactly analogous to saying, in 1942, “Why are you singling out the Nazis for anti-Semitism? How is that exclusively a problem with Nazism? There are some country clubs in the US that don’t permit Jews to join.”

    • Ernie says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 2:53 pm

      Dear Boston Tea Party , excellent equation ! Thank you !!!

    • Kepha says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 8:56 pm

      Good point, Boston Tea Party.

    • Brian Hoff says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 9:00 pm

      In the 1930 Hitler put afew thousand jew on than germany ocean liner to see it any nation take then in, UK,France,Canada, and America refuse to take any in. In fact Canada newpaper ran in ad “How many Jew are too many. Ans none is too many.” Almost all Canada Religish leader where against let any jew in Canada.

      • gravenimage says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 10:56 pm

        The loathsome “Brian Hoff”—really, “DefenderofIslam”—wrote:

        In the 1930 Hitler put afew thousand jew on than germany ocean liner to see it any nation take then in, UK,France,Canada, and America refuse to take any in.
        ………………………………

        Hitler had *nothing* to do with the voyage of the St. Louis in 1939—except, of course, that Jewish passengers were *fleeing* his oppression and violence.

        “Brian Hoff’s” idea that that the St. Louis was a test case by Hitler to show up the antisemitism of the US is absurd.

        The fact is that the US had just accepted a number of refugee ships, and felt overwhelmed. Moreover, many Americans and Canadians wondered if the threat to Jews in Germany wasn’t exaggerated—they simply could not believe that the threat could be so great in such a civilized place as Germany.

        The voyage of the St. Louis is a tragedy—and a cautionary tale. She was turned away not just by the US, but first by pre-Castro Cuba, and by Canada. Britain did take 288 passengers, but turned the rest away.

        She was finally able to dock in Belgium after having to return to Europe. France took in some of the passengers, as did the Netherlands.

        “Brian Hoff’s” claim that Britain and France refused to take in any of the refugees is clearly an outright lie.

        In fact, it appeared the passengers were at this point all safe—and the countries that had turned them away appeared to have been vindicated.

        Unfortunately, apart from Britain all of these nations were later invaded by the very same Nazis that the passengers had hoped to escape. Ultimately, at least a quarter of her passengers would die in Hitler’s death camps.

        The desperate pereginations of the St. Louis have become known as the Voyage of the Damned, and it has become an incident of shame for the nations that didn’t offer a hand to the refugees fleeing genocide.

        But note “Brian Hoff’s” point of view—that it instead offers absolution to the *genocidal Nazis*.

        And why not? His own foul coreligionists are committing genocide against Christians and other non-Muslims in Syria, Iraq, Sudan, northern Nigeria, Pakistan, the Islamic State, and many other parts of the Muslim world—and they regularly salivate over the idea of “finishing the job” that Hitler started if they can ever destroy Israel.

  7. CogitoErgoSum says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    Gerson is maintaining that presidents should promote the cause of those who hold values consistent with democratic governance? Have you even looked at the Quran, Mr. Gerson? Don’t you know the Muslims do not believe all men (and women) are created equal? Don’t you know that the Quran tells Muslims to fight against unbelievers in Islam until everyone is submissive to Allah and Allah’s religion, Islam? How are such values consistent with democratic governance? How are such values consistent with the freedom of religion? Why should any American President praise a religion which holds forth intolerance as an ideal among its followers? You, Mr. Gerson, need to educated yourself and stop trying to pass along your ignorance to the American people and the world.

  8. Dave J says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 12:42 pm

    The statements from Bush and Obama were clearly knee-jerk wishful thinking coverups, made to calm civilian fears while attempting to appease the dark forces that have declared war on us.

    However free people are not entirely stupid and the truth about Islam is slowly emerging. At some point they will demand that their political leaders call a spade a spade.

  9. Beth says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    Please forgive me for being off topic – but just had to share this (I am excited)…

    I just ordered an extra set of Robert Spencer’s….

    The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran

    Islam: What the West Needs to Know

    The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)

    These are a gift for my mom – and we are going to have regular sit-downs with the whole family (I come from a large family) to read these books together. A dream come true for me. Finally, and I don’t know (yet) why the change of hearts for them – but looking so forward to these sit-downs. I believe “The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran” would be the best one to start with – but will welcome ANY advice from all of you decent commentators, here at Jihad Watch.

    • boakai ngombu says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 3:52 pm

      what a breakthrough…

      the Incorrect Guide is a good point to start … all three works have sufficient material and references to help you carryon for months … as the Lord gives you time … better than sitting in some classroom with an unknown instructor … better to enable your development of opinion and formation of mature thoughts about this tragedy of a religion

      carry on

      • Beth says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 5:35 pm

        awe…thank you so much boakai!

        It’s just that I want to do this right. It’s important to me. I must be careful. I must restrain myself – and those familiar with my posts – might understand.

        I will restrain myself – and I will let Robert do all of the talking. If he can’t reach them – no one can. But I think this time is different. They will hear.

        And I’m glad.

        • Mirren10 says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 9:48 pm

          Beth, you might also find this useful:

          It’s how to talk to your fellow non-muslims about islam. Without losing your temper ! Something *I’ve* found particularly useful. 🙂

          http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2012/10/a-new-manual-for-citizen-warriors.html

          Best of luck, and I’m sure we’d all love to know how it goes !

        • Beth says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 2:12 am

          @Mirren10

          It’s not my temper (or the Koran) that is the problem. I will have to refrain myself from adding Scriptures into the conversation.

          But thank you for the link. I will check it out. Coming from you – I have no doubt that it will be useful for me. Thank you.

        • Beth says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 2:21 am

          Mirren10 , this a great website. Thank you so much!!! This will help me – a lot!

        • Beth says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 2:30 am

          I just ordered the book. Can’t wait to read it. We are going to have a get together (with everyone) in January. This should give me time to read it.

          Thank you Mirren.

    • Beth says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 6:17 pm

      Will keep you all posted on how it goes.

      • pumbar says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 11:44 pm

        Cool.

        if I went anywhere near my family with a book that had the word “koran” in the title I’d probably get booted out the door and have the shredded remains of my book thrown after me.

        • Beth says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 2:07 am

          lols!

        • Mirren10 says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 5:32 pm

          ”Thank you Mirren.”

          You’re very welcome, Beth.

          Be sure to let us know how it goes.

    • gravenimage says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 11:09 pm

      Glad to hear it, Beth—that your family is finally open to taking a closer look at Islam is a great breakthrough!

      My only advice is to be very, very patient—one step at a time. Also, don’t try to cover too much at a time—I find that I have a tendency to easily overwhelm listeners who aren’t used to dealing with the savagery of Islam. If some people can’t accept certain truths yet, pick your battles—try not to get stuck on less crucial side topics. Leave the lines of communication open.

      Best of luck—please let us know how it goes!

      • Beth says

        Nov 22, 2014 at 2:15 am

        ” don’t try to cover too much at a time”

        This is what I have to do. Great advice. Thank you!

        • Beth says

          Nov 22, 2014 at 2:54 am

          gravenimage, my family members are very loving people. I am the oldest of six children – and we all have spouses, and children and inlaws (great people). Someone or something (probably my mom) must have seen (read) or said something that woke them all up.

          And I can’t imagine a better person to bring to them – than Robert Spencer (other than the Bible).

          I’ve read Roberts writings…and I know them – my family. I think they will love him. In fact, I know they will.

          And so, I’m very happy – that they all want to do this – get together.

          I do have to remember though – a little bit at a time. I do forget so easily, that there is so much to take in – I must remember your advice. I will keep it with me. Thank you – again.

    • dumbledoresarmy says

      Nov 22, 2014 at 7:51 am

      Wow!

      Best of luck!

      Each one teach one, that’s how it’s happening.

      It may appear slow and frustrating, but …it may well mean that the full-on pushback against Islam, when it finally comes, will be massive, and very very strong, because it will come from ground level, across many different nations.

      Your family are about to join the company of The History Boys.

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/06/fitzgerald-the-unsung-history-boys

      “The keenest and most aware, in every part of the Western world, are now engaged in one vast, but not collective, History Lesson.

      “Those in this class are necessarily a class of autodidacts, given the failure of our governments to instruct us, and given the near-total monopoly over academic departments and courses on Islam by those engaged not so much in instruction as in apologetics…

      “So here we are, now rediscovering the history of India, even if we are not Indians, and perhaps learning more about it, reading more sympathetically about what Muslim rule did to India, than many Indians who, to prove their lack of parochialism, their freedom from “communalism,” overlook the real history, and continuing menace, of Islam in India.

      “Here we are, even those who until a few years ago hardly knew about the Ottomans in Europe, realizing why the Serbs need to be protected from Muslim demands, either by “Bosnians” or by Albanians.

      “Here we are, even those who up until recently had no real understanding of why the Arabs seemed incapable of making any kind of peace or accepting one Israeli compromise and surrender after another of Jewish claims, legal, moral, and historic, but always wanted more.

      “Of course, according to Islam, they must always want more — as we have learned by teaching ourselves about the Treaty of Al Hudaibiyya, learning, since no one in the press chooses to mention, the basis for all Muslim treaties with Infidels…

      “Here we are, all over the world, the unsung History Boys.
      And we are learning a lot. And passing it on…”.

      • dumbledoresarmy says

        Nov 22, 2014 at 7:58 am

        Pursuant to my previous posting, and from the jihadwatch archives, in the thread in which “Hugh Fitzgerald” *first* posted his “history boys” essay (as a comment), I will repost a comment made in response by another poster, and then Hugh’s response. Because I think they are both well worth reading by any person new to this site and this subject, especially those engaging in the attempt to warn others about Islam.

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/pakistani-education-minister-jihad-an-integral-part-of-curriculum.html

        [that may be an outdated form of the link but if you google part of the title – ‘pakistani education minister jihad an integral part of curriculum’ you should be able to pull up the current link]

        “Yes Hugh – we can read all that [Hugh’s ‘History Boys’ essay, listing the sources and the scholars]. Or we can merely get one casual email post in our overflowing email boxes saying –

        “Hey! Did you know that the prophet Muhammad (whom Muslims worship as the most perfect man) was actually a mass-murderer? A thief? A rapist? A slave trader? A pedophile?”

        “And we “rubes” can think to our ignorant “rube” selves – no bloody way!

        “And then do about 2 hours of homework (1 solid day max for the skeptical) and confirm to ourselves – oh hell yes effing way!

        “And in several short hours (OK- a an entire day for the skeptical) put 2 and 2 together – what the Koran says + what the likes of UBL and Hamas and Hezbollah say + the massive obfuscation coming from the likes of CAIR and Tariq Ramadan and the MSA say (a 5 minute lesson in the meaning of taqiyya takes care of that ambiguity) + what a rapid perusal of world history would confirm (OK – to be fair – give that a whole extra day) – and one readily goes from no way in hell! to Holy s**t! This is for real!

        “It ain’t rocket science. And seriously, infidels (both westerners and easterners) ought not to insult their dignity and intelligence by pretending it is.

        “Old Hans Christian Anderson will no doubt live on as the wisest sage the west has ever known where Islam is concerned. A fairy tale ostensibly designed for children yes. But once one realizes how really childlike we all actually are (look at the huge influence of Hollywood for example which is merely high school writ large in many ways), one won’t be so inclined to scoff at such a fairy tale.

        “Which is my blunt way of saying that by all means, those so inclined should read Schacht, and Hurgronje and Tisdall.

        “But also to point out that some of us won’t.

        “Some of us would just as soon look at the noses on the end of our faces and have no doubt whatsoever about what Islam is all about.

        “**In the end, one need only look at Islam’s source – Muhammad – and confirm just a few facts about the man himself (and those facts are easily confirmed for those who are willing to look) – and all the rest just falls easily into place. ** [my emphasis – dda}.
        Posted by: Caroline at July 25, 2006 9:48 PM

        To which Hugh responded:

        “You are right. Whatever manages to supply enough of the truth, and to allow one to convey that truth convincingly to others so they begin to comprehend the nature of the belief-system (try not to call it a “religion”) of Islam, surely does not require all kinds of study.

        “**But such study, when one has the time, merely deepens one’s horrified convictions.** {my emphasis – dda}.

        “Ordinarily, as you read more about something, you more and more see the thing in its complexity, and shades of gray, and are more and more hesitant to pass judgment.

        “With Islam, the more you find out about what it teaches, the more you find out about the example of Muhammad, the more you find out about what Islam does to its adherents, the more you find out about Jihad in time and space, the more you find out about the fate of non-Muslims under Muslim rule, the more horrified you become.”

        {Nota bene: I do not know who “Hugh Fitzgerald” is in real life, but I do know that he comes across as someone very widely and deeply read, a true scholar. And therefore, those two paragraphs *matter*. They have weight. – dd}

        “But it isn’t all necessary.

        “Sometimes a single thing will do it.

        “Here’s the single thing about Iran that often does it: the fact that when he came to power, one of Khomeini’s very first acts (perhaps the first) was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine. Tell that to people you know. And then tell them why.”

        Posted by: Hugh at July 25, 2006 10:41 PM

      • Beth says

        Nov 28, 2014 at 2:39 pm

        “Here we are, even those who up until recently had no real understanding of why the Arabs seemed incapable of making any kind of peace”

        Please do not get angry with me dumbledoresarmy – but I must point out something – concerning your statement:

        Not all Arabs are muslims. The Christian Arabs, most likely, know what it is to suffer under Islamic rule – more than the rest of us. Take for example – the non-muslims Arabs who have had acid thrown in their faces. Or the non-muslim Arabs who have had their children beheaded.

        Please keep this fact in mind.

    • dumbledoresarmy says

      Nov 22, 2014 at 8:03 am

      Beth – the first Spencer book I ever read was “The Myth of Islamic Tolerance” which is an anthology of essays not only by Spencer but by other notable modern critics of Islam such as Mark Durie and Bat Yeor. It taught me a lot.

      But the book that pulled it all together was the next one I got hold of and read – “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades”.

      I gave a copy of it to one of *my* family members – an intelligent and independent-minded fellow, not a Christian, a farmer and cabinetmaker – and he read it…and it woke him up, and HOW. His wife, too. And then his wife gave it to her dad, who *also* found it an eye-opener.

      I think it’s one of the best books to start people off. For many it’s really all they will need to read. They then have enough to be going on with.

      And it’s set out in a format that would make it a good “teaching text”, because it’s laid out by topic, plainly labelled.

      • PatnCats says

        Nov 23, 2014 at 9:08 am

        I have this book by Robert also – actually almost all of his books, but Mr. Dumbelsdorarmy is correct, the first one I read – after reading the koran – were Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s books, then Robert’s “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.” Yes indeed, they are eye-openers.
        AND I donate them to my church library to start a collection of CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION. Imagine – all are on islam. Hmmm. Religion of peace? I don’t think so, we are so way way way past that bit of Propaganda. Now CAIR is on the ropes with the Saudi’s. We need to be pushing their asses into some interrogation rooms and tracing money from terrorists.

      • Beth says

        Nov 28, 2014 at 2:50 pm

        “The Myth of Islamic Tolerance”

        Thank you so much dumbledoresarmy. I will get this book. Was not aware of it. Personally, I believe the best book to read (if you want the absolute truth about Islam) is to read the koran for ones self. But this will never do – with my family. And so, Robert Spencer’s books would be the best alternative for them (I believe).

        You see, I have read the koran for myself….not realizing at the time (looking for more of the Word of God) that the koran is pure evil. {This, I saw for myself). I have a family that is not into the Word of God – as I am. And so, the subject of the koran is not interesting to them. It should be – because of its commands,

        Thank you so much for that info dumbledoresarm. I will certainly check it out.

        And, I will keep you posted (all of you) on how it goes. I have great hope that Robert will reach them. He’s just so likable – how could they not hear? I believe they will.

    • PatnCats says

      Nov 23, 2014 at 9:03 am

      Robert’s books are GREAT!
      Also consider, by F.W. Burleigh, “It’s All About Mohammed; the World’s Most NOTORIOUS Prophet.” It’s a detailed read – and HEY! Great DRAWINGS of Moham beheading people and raping women, just like ISIS – just like their founder – a murdering, raping, pillaging, thieving PSYCHOPATH EPILEPTIC mad-man!
      Also, for women: ex-muslim women know about islam, believe that! See Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s books: “The Caged Virgin”, “Infidel” and “Nomad”
      and….www.politicalislam.com by Dr. Bill Warner – also check his videos and great books
      and for Christmas Day watching YouTube: Dr. David Wood’s ACTS17Apologetics – David’s videos are wildly entertainingly educational. His tongue-in-cheek humor in telling us about the barbarity of Moham, islam and mohammadans are great.

      • Beth says

        Nov 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm

        @PatnCats

        “Moham beheading people and raping women, just like ISIS – just like their founder”

        People like me – can get this truth. Why can’t the media? Do they have no fear that these evils can happen to them and theirs? I just don’t get it. But one thing is for sure: they’ll “get it” once that which they have been defending – starts to happen to them and theirs. Then it will be too late for them to fight back. Because they’ll be the last to go – in an Islamic society. They don’t believe for now – but they will – when it’s too late. Call it retribution – from the Real God, Who commands:

        Do not lie
        Do not steal
        Do not cheat
        Do no murder
        Do not covet

  10. Thomas Black says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    Let us say, for arguments sake, that the Koran is the most peaceful book ever written. So what? In many parts of the world, non-Muslims brace themselves on Fridays. Muslim clergy often give belligerent sermons, prompting Muslims to stream out of mosques and go on rampages.

  11. Don McKellar says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    It looks like somebody has hacked the Post Comment section. Right behind the Post a Comment it reads a whole bunch of crap which ends with some nonsense about “trolled may be kittened”. Likely some retarded hackers have done some other stuff.

    • somehistory says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 2:13 pm

      Yes, I noticed it a couple of days ago. And wondered at the *loose their right to anonymity,* …noting the *loose* should have been *lose* if this statement came from those moderating the site. I always thought those making threats would just lose the privilege of making comments.

      About the article:
      The above comments by Mr. Abrams may not be all he could have said, but at least he said that much.

      • Tradewinds says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 4:44 pm

        Right – “lose” is misspelled as “loose” and what does “kittened” mean? I don’t think I like that term. “maybe” is also wrong, it should be “may be.”

        • somehistory says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 5:36 pm

          According to some things I saw while searching it out, it can mean *jihad* as it is a *killing* as one would kill a kitten.
          Don’t know if the sites I saw are telling the truth about it, but it makes sense. It’s hard to get a handle on all things that use code in the form of alternate words when looking on the web and so many different opinions expressed.
          The way the line is on the comment box almost looks like computer code…all run together.

        • Tradewinds says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 6:06 pm

          Well that’s disgusting. I’m going to ask RS if he knows about this.

        • Karl says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 6:22 pm

          LOL. Getting “kittened” is what happens when trolls have their comments edited by the webmaster to completely change their message into something very bright and cheery, hence, “kittening”.

        • Tradewinds says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 6:27 pm

          Yes I just read about that, Karl. I still don’t like the term as it can be easily misinterpreted. There’s too much animal abuse in the world for a term that can be misconstrued.

        • Mirren10 says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 9:55 pm

          ”what does “kittened” mean?”

          I was curious about that, also. So I googled it, and Urban Dictionary says this:

          kittened

          Getting beat in a video game by a female gamer named Kittened

          Man, I just got kittened by Kittened.

          So I *think* it might mean that trolls may be verbally pulverised ?

          It’s certainly different from the disclaimer Robert had up on the old format !

        • pumbar says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 11:47 pm

          Yep, “kittened” is a gaming term, it’s like getting pwned but worse because you’re getting owned by a noob or a young kid or similar.

        • Islamisdeath says

          Nov 23, 2014 at 2:42 pm

          Kittened as in the beheaded kittens being found in the UK. The death cult zombie who beheaded the grandmother in her garden practiced on kittens.

    • Champ says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 3:33 pm

      It looks like somebody has hacked the Post Comment section. Right behind the Post a Comment it reads a whole bunch of crap which ends with some nonsense about “trolled may be kittened”. Likely some retarded hackers have done some other stuff.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      I disagree with you, Don …

      This isn’t the work of some hacker; it sounds very fair and reasonable to me, and not at all as you describe the message.

      • Don McKellar says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 4:56 pm

        Then why is it one big run-on sentence without spaces and full of grammatical errors — which is not something Robert does, as he is very academically-minded and always certain to try and be as correct as possible? And why change it from the straight forward note before? Doesn’t add up. As usual, you’re not the Champ of anything.

        • Champ says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 5:04 pm

          Marc, Robert’s tech guy, probably wrote that with a few spelling errors ..so what; it certainly doesn’t mean that this site has been hacked “Don”. What a stupid notion.

        • Champ says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 5:13 pm

          And why are you leveling personal insults? …all I did was disagree with you.

        • Don McKellar says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 5:25 pm

          I’m testing to see if I’ll be “kittened”.

        • Champ says

          Nov 21, 2014 at 7:05 pm

          Don McKellar wrote:

          As usual, you’re not the Champ of anything.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Au Contraire! …my maiden name is Champion so I am a “Champ”! 😀

    • Beth says

      Nov 28, 2014 at 4:19 pm

      Three tools that I use:

      Malewarebytes (free – although I have the professional version – not free)

      CCleaner (free – although I have the professional version – not free)

      Microsoft Security Essentials (free)

      Having these three protective tools helps a lot (if you use windows) – against the viruses and the spam.

      And these are the only tools that I use ( been using them for years). They work.

  12. Islam_Macht_Frei says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 2:57 pm

    There are many variants of Islam out there, all claiming to be the one, true Islam. At the extreme there is Nobel Laureate Malala saying that ISIS and the Taliban do not represent Islam, and those groups saying that Malala does not represent it.

    So who is right??

    My rule of thumb is this: when two groups are sparing over which is more or truly Islamic, I say that the one that is most willing and able to employ any and all manner of violence is the winner, the true or greater Islam.

    So:
    Sunnis 1, Amahdis 0
    ISIS 1, Malala 0

    etc

    • Beth says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 3:21 pm

      I say…

      Which ever one is keeping with what their Koran preaches – is the true Muslim group.

      Why is this concept so hidden?

      Here..take a look for yourself:

      Koran (chapter and verse given for proof)

      047.004 – Beheadings

      033.052 – Gang Rape of female ‘infidels’

      005.033 – Crucifixions

      008.067 – Treason

      033.061 – Genocide “without mercy”

      005.041 – Racism….

      005.041 O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: whether it be among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie [[This is Racism – It is hate speech]]

      What more needs to be said?

      I will say this…

      Freedom of religion NEVER included the right to incite the masses into violence – and that is exactly what Islam does – no matter the Muslim group. They all bow down to the same god.

      • Michael Copeland says

        Nov 21, 2014 at 6:53 pm

        Beth, be sure to tell your group that the Koran forms part of Islamic law. One who denies any verse has to be killed. The killing can be carried out, without penalty, vigilante style, by anyone “since it is killing someone who deserves to die” (Manual of Islamic Law, “Reliance of the Traveller” o8.4, o8.7(7)), available as a free download). The Koran can be consulted online.
        This law status makes the Koran quite different from the Old Testament.

    • silvergreycat says

      Nov 21, 2014 at 6:04 pm

      Malala may be a real-life *Burka Avenger*…but has faced difficulties Jiya never did. http://www.burkaavenger.com/

  13. jewdog says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    The lack of specific knowledge about Islam in this synopsis – or Christianity for that matter – makes the debate a lot of hot-air rhetoric. If we’re going to spend billions and get people killed that doesn’t instill confidence. Not much ROI for our tax dollars.

  14. R Cole says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    Since this whole Isis thing western leaders have really gone overboard to say – Islam is a religion of peace. But before this ‘I’m sure Obama used to say – there are millions of Muslims around the world who practice their religion peacefully’ – which is a much more accurate statement.

    That is not saying the religion of Islam is peaceful – only that Muslims demonstrate that it can be practiced in a peaceful manner — naturally, in accordance with their human nature.

    But where it is believed that humanity is improved by Islam – and that all who do not practice it are lacking in character and worth – we see a sense of Islamic entitlement emerge – where its assertiveness – seeks to claim the right to hold authority over all others.

    Political Islam – The Sharia Buggy

    Which leads us to the final point – made by the Muslim commentator:

    I do think Islam is distinctive in how it relates to politics but I don’t think that is necessarily good or bad, I think it just is.”

    And this goes to the political nature of Islam – from a Muslim point of view – [not the stuff for Ben Affleck – who is going to do his bring me only the green M&M’s strop – with the debate] — he accepts political Islam – which I think is a healthy view.

    In that there should be an acknowledgement – that when Muslims settle an area they move out from the mosque – and try to implement a legal and political structure to reflect their religious norms.

    That is – we should expect – they will attempt to bring about a Sharia order.

    In our case that is to take the free out of the free world – the alternative of which – even if you are positive [like Karen Armstrong on Islam] – there are no glowing examples of what might replace it – in the Islamic world – just varying degrees of more or less the same the Sharia.

    ::

    Sharia Unveiled

    At the moment – efforts to create a Sharia state – have been embedded into anti-racism campaigns and civil-rights activism – [as Ben Affleck expressed – its all hateful – what’s to think about!] – so that sharia advocacy can be kept under the radar.

    One example of how sharia is advanced when debates are shouted down by Affleck-like derision and dismissed outright – is the Islamization of the US school textbooks – yet when similar images and wording appeared in the Turkish school textbooks – officially a secular state – there was uproar in that country. The difference is that the Turkish government is acknowledged to be Islamist – where the civil rights group CAIR is not.

    Hope – increasingly over experience

    Calling Islam a peaceful religion – is clearly a political statement – perhaps one based on wishful thinking — but has the effect of stifling debate western society needs on an Islam that seeks to impose an image of itself on all else.

  15. mark says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    Respect, right. These people are just on a different value system than we are and we cannot get our idiotic Western heads around it. They do not think like we do, they do not hold the same equivalencies. They consider ‘respect’ to be turning a church into a mosque instead of destroying it. Letting non-muslims live (living as second class citizens of course). Expelling non-muslims instead of killing them when taking over their country or city. I mean, to them, those things in their minds make them like Jesus level respectful and awesome. Which to us are not respectful at all since we don’t think muslims are the supreme beings showing mercy on us lessers. They view everything from a supremacist viewpoint, so that’s always why this expectation for respect between muslim and non-muslim is so imbalanced and in their obvious favor. Islam is about Islam>everything else. Simple as that.

    The way this entire situation has been handled from day one has been a disaster. This is clearly a religiously fueled war whether we like it or not, 100% religious from the muslim pov, yet no one knows jack about the religions and tensions and history in play. Still, 13 years after 9/11 we still are clueless. And we wonder why policy makers and people who are speaking for us are making horrifically bad misinformed decisions and make idiotic statement like, “most muslims____” or “islam is no different from other religions”. Um. I don’t see any buddhists or hindus or jews or mormons or catholics or janists or pagans acting like barbaric throwbacks from a time long gone en masse. It’s good to see discussion but we need more.

  16. silvergreycat says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm

    Dr. Warner explains the stumbling block Mr. Abrams and others keep running into… http://www.newenglishreview.org/Bill_Warner/Duality_and_Political_Islam/

  17. Ice Star says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 8:46 pm

    There is a point I think both men failed to see and discuss.

    Most Muslims behave peacefully…in areas dominated by Islam. True.

    Islam is NOT a peaceful religion/political system. True as evidenced by the Qu’ran, Hadith, Sunnah and by the behavior of the active violent Jihadists attempting to spread Islam.

    My point is this.

    Just because an illiterate farmer in Bangladesh is peaceful doesn’t make the religion and political system he adheres to is peaceful.

  18. Wellington says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 9:28 pm

    Interesting thread. Abrams, and the probably forever clueless Gerson aside, it should strike anyone with common sense that it is only about Islam and no other religion that we have to have such discussions. This in and of itself, I submit, is telling and damning. I mean who openly, other than a few loons here or there, wonders whether Hinduism or Christianity, Buddhism or Judaism, or any other religion but Islam is peaceful or not?

    Holy Hell, I have to wonder what it will take for mankind en masse to conclude irrevocably that Islam—–hmmm, now how best to put this—–really sucks and is in no way comparable to any other major religion mankind has ever developed; that it is a menace to humanity; a completely ungracious belief system; that it is replete with totalitarian dictates; that its reputed founder is someone no sensible person should admire; and that it is deep bad news for women, democracy, equality under the law and, oh yes, two other important things——–humor and beer. After all, there is no fun in Islam, now is there? No alcohol either. And, let’s face it as well, Islamic musical theater is a pretty thin repertoire—–but I digress.

  19. mortimer says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    Elliot Abrams’ argument is that a non-Muslim cannot understand Islam. I disagree.

    He states: “For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool’s errand.”

    Islam is a political ideology based on an obscurantist, unverifiable claim: that Mohammed was given a military mission to conquer the world.

    • Salah says

      Nov 22, 2014 at 12:34 am

      “Islam is a political ideology based on an obscurantist, unverifiable claim: that Mohammed was given a military mission to conquer the world.”

      Unverifiable claim? I respectfully disagree with you, mortimer.
      In the Biography of the Prophet by Ibn Hisham and under the title: “The Test of Khadija is the Proof of Revelation” we read the following story..

      Khadija’s Thighs

      http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/06/khadijas-thighs.html

  20. gravenimage says

    Nov 21, 2014 at 11:18 pm

    Elliot Abrams: When presidents say Islam is a religion of peace, “the average American thinks this is crap”
    ……………………………….

    Abrams may not know a great deal about the creed of Islam, but one cannot argue with his commonsense observation here.

  21. eduardo odraude says

    Nov 22, 2014 at 3:00 am

    Gerson misses the point when he says that every religion has sources of respect for the other. Well, duh. Obviously nothing is purely this or that. Is Gerson really so stupid as to think pointing that out is relevant? The relevant question is, how many such sources of respect for the other does a given religion have. Some religions (Islam, Jim Jones, the former Manson family, etc.) have only a tiny fund of sources of respect for the other, and a gigantic fund of sources of totalitarian hatred. Against dummies like Gerson, the physicist Bill Warner statistically analyzed the Qur’an, Hadith, and Ishaq’s biography of Muhammad to see what percentage of Islamic sacred texts are tolerant, and what percentage are totalitarian. Warner acknowledges that the Islamic sacred texts are contradictory, but the unlike Gerson is capable of thought, and decides to look at the proportion of the texts that take one side or the other. And guess what? Islam is overwhelmingly an intolerant, totalitarian religion. Sure, it has mites of tolerance here and there, particularly when Muslims are weak or in the minority.

    Gerson seems to be assuming one of two things. 1) A major religion cannot be evil, a billion point five Muslims couldn’t believe in something evil, and thus all major religions are morally equivalent. If Gerson argues that, his argument is crap, to employ Abrams’ apt word choice. But Gerson might secretly know Islam is mainly malignant, and secretly allow that Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism are not mainly malignant. But Gerson might believe that open acknowledgement of Islam’s malignant character has more downside than upside. If the president were to announce the honest truth that Islam is a totalitarian religion of violence and lies, for example, that announcement might mobilize the Muslim world more than would killing off jihadis discreetly and in large numbers while telling the lie that Islam is a religion of peace. Maybe some in the U.S. government have believed that in that way Islam can be emasculated, castrated, and dominated until some far off day when the religion, they fondly hope, might morph into something more or less normal and benign.

    Obviously, I don’t agree with that view. More public figures should be talking publicly about Islam’s totalitarian character. Media figures, however, know little or nothing about the distinctive character of different religions, because media figures tend to be super secular. To them, because they know nothing, all religions look alike! Don’t get me wrong. I love secular government, and believe it results in significant part from statements of Jesus.

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