Even though Ayaan Hirsi Ali was raised a Muslim in a Muslim country, and Joe Biden has almost certainly never opened a Qur’an, Biden believed he knew more about Islam than she did. Why? Because her opinion of the religion was negative, and the possibility that such a view could have any merit whatsoever is inconceivable in Washington circles. Those who hold it must be ignorant.
“Ayaan Hirsi Ali fights radical Islam’s real war on women,” by Ashe Schow, Washington Examiner, December 8, 2014:
In early April of this year, Brandeis University, under pressure from student activists and the Council on American-Islamic Relations, reversed its decision to give an honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a global advocate for women’s rights.
The decision was triggered by Hirsi Ali’s outspoken criticisms of Islam. The Somali-born activist has sounded alarms about the prevalence of extremism in Muslim countries and the misogyny that pervades even mainstream Islam.
During the Brandeis controversy, a CAIR spokesman called her “one of the worst of the worst of the Islam-haters in America.”
But Hirsi Ali’s warnings about Islamic extremism were quickly supported by world events, as just a week after Brandeis rescinded her honorary degree, the Islamist terrorist organization Boko Haram kidnapped more than 200 Nigerian schoolgirls in the first of many such abductions throughout the summer. A few months after the kidnappings began, news spread that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, another terrorist group, was selling Yazidi women into sexual slavery….
Bundled up and fearful of shaking hands because of a cough, Hirsi Ali sat down with the Washington Examiner in November before being presented an award by the Independent Women’s Forum at its Women of Valor Dinner in Washington. She noted that where extremist ideology spreads, death and mayhem flourish.
“That consequence you see today in parts of Iraq and Syria,” Hirsi Ali said. “You see it in what Boko Haram is doing. You’ve seen it with the Taliban and al Qaeda. Everywhere where that idea is implemented it has a sudden pattern.”
Critics have attacked Hirsi Ali as Islamophobic and have argued that the portrait she paints is not representative of Islam at large. But her disagreements with Islam are rooted in her own East African upbringing.
Hirsi Ali was subjected to female genital mutilation at the age of 5 in her home country, Somalia, while her father, who opposed the traditional practice, was in prison. Her father escaped and moved the family to Saudi Arabia, then to Ethiopia and finally to Kenya when Hirsi Ali was 11 years old.
She grew up as a Muslim woman, reading and accepting the Quran and its teachings. But when her family prepared to force her into an arranged marriage, she fled to the Netherlands. She eventually became a translator, speaking on behalf of Somali women who, like her, were seeking asylum….
Liberals, she said, protect Islamic extremists partly because the Left has no idea what really goes on in Muslim countries.
“They feel all religions are the same, and they’re not,” she observed. “I think if I adopt the position in good faith to multiculturalists and leftists, I would say [they take the position they do] because they see them [Muslims] as victims. They see them as victims of the white man and so they think: ‘Let’s protect them from the white man. Let’s protect them from capitalism.’… That is misguided at best and malicious at worst.”…
“Wherever [Islamists] gain power, you see exactly what they do: The first thing they do is they chase women out of the public space, force them to cover up, beat them up, rape them, sell them into slavery,” Hirsi Ali said.
Such violence against women needs to be exposed, and Western liberals need to “review their thinking,” she said.
That will prove difficult. In her speech to the dinner guests in Washington, Hirsi Ali recalled meeting Vice President Joe Biden. He informed her that “ISIS had nothing to do with Islam.” When she disagreed with him, Biden actually responded: “Let me tell you one or two things about Islam.”
“I politely left the conversation at that,” Hirsi Ali said, to laughter. “I wasn’t used to arguing with vice presidents.”…
particolor says
They are Not Human !! They came in on a Space Ship !!
mortimer says
Muslims are Klingons.
jamesc says
more like the Borg
Jeff says
Absolutely Borg!
gamma says
Klingons are not nearly as barbaric as Muslims. I never saw them crucify children on Star Trek.
gravenimage says
Not really. After all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali used to be Muslim—now she is one of the bravest Infidels around. Grimly, it works the other way, also, where those born into freedom then embrace the viciousness of Islam.
I realize you were speaking tongue-in-cheek, but it is important to understand that Islam *is* something that humans are capable of—humans at their worst, just as with Fascism and Stalinism.
Biden and Ben Affleck are oh so intelligent says
Biden is more knowledgeable about Islam than someone who was raised a muslim and had 20 plus years of indocrination of Islam in various “muslim countries”? Ok sure, yep, I am going to believe that one.. Maybe Biden can go to Ben Affleck and get the real knowledge on Islam “the religion of peace”. Affleck knows it is “racist” to say anything negative about a religion that believes women are worth half what a man is, and that leaving Islam should be punishable by death. These beliefs are justifiable and to believe otherwise is “racist”. Sorry for being so “racist” Ben.
RRO says
Racist?
That is what frustrates me to no end about religious people who instinctively label anyone who disagrees with them a racist.
What’s wrong with these people?
Do they not know what dictionaries are used for?
Are they stupid?
Are they out of their cotton pickin’ minds or are they simply using political rhetoric to silence their critics?
It doesn’t seem to matter how I identify them when they are doing a mighty good job at getting enough of the people with clout to help them silence their critics by simply using the “racist” card, the “you insulted my religion” card, by suing everyone who dares to criticize their obviously tortured way of thinking, or acquiring, from their appeasers and empathizers, all the help they need to accomplish their goal of establishing their mad maniacal idea of a “one world religion / political system”.
Someone with clout needs to fix this mess once and for all and forever.
jihad3tracker says
A courageous, articulate, persistent woman who REALLY NAILS THE ESSENCE OF what I have called “privilege guilt”.
Please pass this JW post on to your liberal fantasizing friends . . . I know it will resonate in them and might even change some minds.
Miracles happen occasionally, right ???.
Jay Boo says
Often times people of the Left will gather like peacocks on parade with other like-minded folks and sit around in an Islam PC Circle Jerk while each participant reinforces the bland hyperbole of others in the group even as each one simultaneously tries to appear the most Islam tolerant of all.
This all leads to the delusional self-righteous complex that is better known as ‘Ben Affleck Syndrome.
Charli Main says
No Nobel Prize for Hirsi Ali, a true warrior for the rights of oppressed and subjugated Muslim women throughout the world.
But a Pakistani Muslima, who continues to dress as a Muslima, behave like a Muslima, live like a Muslima and never utters a single word of criticism against Islam and Islam’s treatment of women, is treated as a global heroine.
The only issue this Muslima has with the religion of peace, is about the education of women in Pakistan.
cassandra says
Brilliant! And an antisemite terrorist supporter, as she has given some of her prize money to Hamas.
Bettina says
NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!?
voegelinian says
Way — by proxy:
“Nobel Prize winner Malala Yousafzai donates $50,000 for UN schools in Gaza”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/10/nobel-prize-winner-malala-yousafzai-donates-50000-for-un-schools-in-gaza
PAthena says
(1) Malala was a victim of the Taliban, which tried to kill her because she supports education for women. Read her book, “I Am Malala.
Note that President Obama shows his support of the Taliban by freeing those at Gitmo and sending them to Pakistan.
(2) Since the president of the United States, Barack Hussein Obama, is a Muslim manqué, it is no wonder that his Vice-President Joe Biden attacks Ayaan Hirsi Ali because of her criticism of Mohammedanism.
Mirren10 says
Excellent comment, Charli. You took the words right off my keyboard.
”But a Pakistani Muslima, who continues to dress as a Muslima, behave like a Muslima, live like a Muslima and never utters a single word of criticism against Islam and Islam’s treatment of women, is treated as a global heroine.”
Yep. And she even has the gall to criticise the country which took her in. Personally, I think she’s a ghastly little cow.
Yes, it’s women like Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Nonie Darwish et al. who actually **deserve** a Nobel prize, for telling the truth about the worst religion ever invented.
cs says
I am with you there.
St. Croix says
Yes, those are the women who are taking a real risk every day as they speak the truth. Not only are they in real danger as apostates of Islam but they also attacked and disparaged for taking the unpopular (read: never going to merit a Nobel prize) position of going against the surging PC tide.
St. Croix says
should read “they are also attacked”
Bettina says
So Malala’s position is what, that the Taliban thugs who shot her were just a street gang of assorted misogynists, down on the education of girls, with no context whatsoever, simply out of the blue?
I’m amazed at all the eye-openers I glean here on JW. This minute, thanks to Charli, Cassandra, and Mirren, I can see Malala’s anti-Semitic tunnel vision, and what a truncated example she really is for muslim girls.
voegelinian says
“So Malala’s position is what, that the Taliban thugs who shot her were just a street gang of assorted misogynists”
Malala’s ostensible position is the TMOE Meme (the Tiny Minority of Extremists is the problem, not Islam and Muslims per se) — the same Meme which the entire bloody mainstream West also believes and supports a million ways.
However, given that Malala is an intelligent Muslim — who we must reasonably suppose adores the Koran, Allah, Islam and Muhammad — it’s highly unlikely she maintains this position out of the same reasons by which the West does (the West’s PC MC). Only two explanations remain for her position: she is severely, strangely brain-damaged; or she is lying to us. No third option is reasonable to assume. And since we have no evidence of the former, we must reasonably suppose it is the latter.
RonaldB says
On Malala:
She should never have been given the Nobel prize. It’s not that she is bad, but simply that there are people much more qualified. What happened is that Malala is as good as can be expected for a teenager educated in a Muslim country.
The Nobel committee has a long history of making embarrassing and malevolent awards. Who can take them seriously after they awarded the serial killer and liar, Yassir Arafat, the Nobel Peace Prize? It’s like awarding Jack the Ripper the Nobel Prize for advances in medicine.
This is the link to a good article about Malala’s book, detailing her criticism of Islam and it’s practices in Pakistan. Note this about the article: it is by a Pakistani, Muslim journalist, and is actually CRITICAL of Malala for criticizing Islamic practices. I didn’t actually pick up on that until I began reading the comments. The details in the article make so much sense, I wonder if Pakistani journalists actually communicate information against Islam in the guise of criticizing critics of Islam. It’s anybody’s guess.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-209499-Malala-exposes-herself-to-criticism
Any Muslim with half a brain cell in the United States would immediately drop Islam like a hot potato, and get a concealed-carry gun license. Get out while the getting is good. At least here, you have a chance to defend yourself. Anyone staying in Islam will get sucked into its pathology. Even the most benevolent Muslim has a good chance of seeing his children sneak off to fight in groups like ISIS.
I feel sorry for Muslims. They are beaten, threatened and raped to enforce their beliefs. Islam has a system of inbreeding to TAKE AWAY THE BRAINS of Muslims so they are literally incapable of complex thought. Their natural response to reasoned criticism is violence.
voegelinian says
One can’t expect a JW Softy to adequately analyze a text. That critical review of Malala’s book nowhere demonstrates that she is anti-Islam. It contains only one supposed proof, which is entirely circumstantial and certainly not enough for us to play Muslim Roulette with and risk our lives — namely, that apparently (according to the crotoca; Muslim reviewer), she doesn’t use the typical acronyms of respect (PBUH, SAW) for Muhammad or “The Prophet” when she mentions him The main objections the reviewer has for Malala’s positions as he gleans them from her book is that she is not patriotic enough about Pakistan, that she doesn’t like the harder-line Pakistani Generals who have tried to impose the harsher (i.e., more authentically Islamic) laws of Sharia, that she doesn’t like some particular Mullahs who have demanded women wear their beekeeper costumes, that she doesn’t like the female Muslimas from the “Red Mosque” who have formed vigilante groups of Religious Police in neighborhoods, etc. — i.e., that she is ostensibly against the TMOE (the Tiny Minority of Extremists); not Islam per se, and not Muhammad, the Koran, Allah, and Islam. Apparently, this — and the fact that she’s a young girl — is enough to move RonaldB’s heart to jelly as he pities the Poor Lovely Muslim Victims.
One telling little detail from that review: About her father, whom Malala admires, she writes that he opposed the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and she quotes him as saying, in true schizophrenic fashion:
‘Is Islam such a weak religion that it cannot tolerate a book written against it? Not my Islam!”
Then it goes on to talk about her criticism of former Pakistan leader General Zia’s policy of supporting the jihad in Afghanistan
“It was as if under Zia jihad had become the sixth pillar of our religion on top of the five we grow up to learn……… My father says that in our part of the world this idea of jihad was very much encouraged by the CIA.”
voegelinian says
I wish Spencer’s site designer, marc, would fix the fact that the Comment draft box shows the text as a ghostly grey so light, one can’t properly see what the bloody hell one is typing.
Typo:
according to the crotoca; Muslim reviewer
should be:
according to the critical Muslim reviewer
RonaldB says
The fierce keyboard warrior Voegelinian comes out again with a jeremiad against anyone with a bit of nuance in their view of Muslims and Islam. The fierce keyboard warrior has in the past come down strongly against Robert Spencer, a real warrior putting himself at daily risk of violence far greater than the risk of having a random misspelling criticized.
Well, welcome to the fight, Voegelinian. It takes all types. You have provided some insights and some valuable links. I don’t take your huffing and puffing against me very seriously. I said that Malala was in no way deserving of a Nobel Prize, although given the quality of Nobel Prize recipients, I may be mistaken. She’s certainly better than Yassir Arafat.
I think most JW bloggers are sophisticated enough to appreciate cracks in the Islamist defenses without falling for the ruse that Islam can be polished and perfumed. Malala is what now..all of 17. You expect much depth from a 17-year old girl educated in a Muslim country? Give me a break.
For the record, I do not support any accommodation with Muslim immigration. I also do not support the US trying to influence one Muslim sect, like the Wahabis, against another on Islamic grounds. They’re all dangerous, but you can make a tactical alliance out of self-interest.
Also, except for any facts or logic, I don’t care what you think. If you have any facts or logic, like your summary of the article, I read it with interest. But, I don’t care about your emotional orientation.
Jay Boo says
Just because Biden is an older male and white and American born he thinks he can get away with his grotesquely patronizing behavior.
This is so — SEXIST
This is so — RACIST
This is so — age discininatory
This is so — anti-foreign born
It is quite obvious that Biden is still stuck in a colonial mindset time warp of viewing all African born people through an outdated imperialist mindset likely exacerbated from watching way too many Tarzan movies.
Just wait until the Leftist media hear about this!
Crixus says
+1
Crixus says
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an absolute hero. She makes Emily Pankhurst look like an amature.
Binden – what an arrogant disgrace of a man. How dare he patronise someone who has been through what this lady has been through? An example of everything that is wrong with the sound byte mealey mouthed image obsessed liberal aparatchniks that infest our Western democracies like fleas.
Hirsi Ali has bigger balls than the entire bloody lot of them.
The proof in the pudding is how shit scared the likes of CAIR are of critics like Ayaan Ali. Robert can be written off as a neocon nazi, Pamela a zionist, Walid a fantasist and any one who is vaguely white who DARES to criticise can be accused of being a racist as most of us have no doubt experienced.
But HOW to shut up people like Hirsi Ali?
You can’t can you?
Binden should be crawling ON HIS KNEES in apology for his crass, sexist, ageist and misogynistic not to mention deeply disrespectful behaviour.
jewdog says
Joe “Chutzpah” Biden is a good sidekick for the know-it-all in the White House. Like most liberals, Biden would consider it sinful to criticize Islam because to do so would make Muslims victims of racism, the sole cause of all that’s bad in the universe. It also means that he doesn’t actually have to learn anything about Islam, which is a great convenience.
mortimer says
The false construct of the Left: racism + capitalism + blasphemy = USA
And ‘who are we’ to judge the noble savages with their beheadings, sex slaves and FGM…after all, white Europeans are ALWAYS ‘much worse’.
(Biden is a white European, so he is ‘much worse’…cultural Marxism says he is the enemy.)
Marty says
Hirsi Ali is, arguably, the bravest woman in the World, and very wise.
The muslima, has been conditioned since birth to accept a vile religion, and has yet to
mature enough to realise that Pakistan is a nuclear armed failed state and that Islam
is an evil death cult.
She is still very brave, and hopefully, as she matures, she will realise that education in Pakistan
is but one facet of a thoroughly rotten set of religious values.
Matthieu Baudin says
Hirsi was greeted with even greater ignorance and disrespect, by a well known woman presenter, during an interview with the national Australian broadcaster SBS Television. Wariness and contempt seems to follow Apostates wherever they go. Meanwhile the personal biographical accounts, including Hirsi’s, put flesh on the bones in appreciating the realities of everyday life in Islamic societies.
Tradewinds says
Biden is a fool. My God to have such an absolute fool concerning Islam for a VP. Biden should don a Clancy the Clown outfit with a dunce cap.
mortimer says
Biden’s greatest foolishness is AUTHORITARIAN THOUGHT that says:
“Believe THIS because I have an important position.”
Ayaan Hirsi Ali uses fact-based thought: “Believe this because I have overwhelming evidence.”
Champ says
“Biden should don a Clancy the Clown outfit with a dunce cap.”
Indeed! lol! 🙂
eib says
Mr. Biden, ISIS is the heart, soul and future of Islam. Your ignorance is, in your own words, unprofessional. Your willingness to trust savages and 3rd world opportunists makes your leadership a joke.
Ayatrollah says
My sister is a women’s studies phd. She told me she support sharia law, and she is gay. She has tried to say I’m an uneducated and non worldly person. She really can’t say that. I stopped talking to her about this and no longer send stuff like this to her.
This is what she would say……
Islam is a vast and dynamic religion. It does nit matter what the Islamic text say. And look at how violent football is and Texas executes too many black people.
mortimer says
That’s the complete CULTURAL MARXISM paradigm…lunacy that didn’t work in the USSR and doesn’t work anywhere else.
But the MUSLIMS AREN’T MARXISTS! Muslims are ‘trade capitalists’ and Muslim males have all the monopolies within the Islamic system. Women are commodities of TRADE in the Islamic economic system.
Tell her that!
Bettina says
Better yet, tell her to take her openly gay self to Iran or any other Islamic shithole of her choice, which would be to commit suicide-by-sharia in her case, wouldn’t it?
RonaldB says
“My sister is a women’s studies phd. She told me she support sharia law”
I also have a close relative prominent in academia. The academic circle is entirely closed to new ideas. They review each other’s books and articles, support each other in tenure decisions, and are totally closed to ideas outside of their circle. I literally could not talk to my relative…and I’m being purposely vague to prevent any identification.
I think the whole structure of academic tenure should be scrapped. The rationale for tenure was that it provided a setting for independent thought and research in spite of political pressures. In fact, tenured professors go after salary increases and grants, and the pressure to conform is tremendous. We’d be far better off to expose tenured professors to the administrations of universities, who at least have to answer to boards of directors and legislators. Academia is no longer a place of original or creative thinking, and should not be allowed to sop up resources from the productive sector.
mortimer says
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has nailed the inverse racism of the Left: “they see them [Muslims] as victims. They see them as victims of the white man”. A white European saying what Ayaan Hirsi Ali did would be a ‘racist’.
Biden and other cultural Marxists regurgitate UNDIGESTED the quackery that COLONIALISM IS THE PROBLEM for Muslims. The reverse is true: MUSLIMS ARE THE COLONIALISTS!
Islam is a colonizing religion and political system! The prime directive of Islam is to colonize using violence and deceit. The end justifies the means. That is Islamic morality.
Biden regurgitates the claptrap only the Left understands ‘THE REAL EXPLANATION’ of everything…it is the MARXIST explanation of ‘exploitation’ of the toiling masses and their resentment.
Most jihadist leaders are actually middle class university graduates.
Bettina says
My current thought is that most cultures and races have an imperialist past, most if not all. But liberals focus only on European colonialism to the exclusion of all other equally culpable sources. They’d know this if they chose to study history without blinders on.
voegelinian says
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has nailed the inverse racism of the Left: “they see them [Muslims] as victims. They see them as victims of the white man”
JW commenter “RonaldB” a few comments above has more or less the same view of Muslims, though the artificial cause may not be the “white man” but the disembodied amorphous abstract Culture of Islam:
“I feel sorry for Muslims. They are beaten, threatened and raped to enforce their beliefs. Islam has a system of inbreeding to TAKE AWAY THE BRAINS of Muslims so they are literally incapable of complex thought. Their natural response to reasoned criticism is violence.”
And what are we to say of mortimer himself, when he wrote not too long ago:
Nonsense. Most Muslims are much nicer and more moral than Mohammed. They believe theoretically, but most do not practice all the things required by Islam. Perhaps 85% of Muslims are non-practicing ‘hypocrites’. Only 15% are observant.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/muslims-protest-against-australia-terror-raids-there-is-anger-in-the-community-we-have-been-victimised-for-years-and-years/comment-page-1#comment-1121630
Zebo says
Well,Joe Biden is christian and zionist.(That’s as logical as being jew and jihadist)
He was also a huge supporter of regime change in ukraine ,helped bringing “democracy” by getting rid of oligarchs.
Therefore he and his government ended oligarchie in Ukrainie by simply replacing Oligarch Janukovitch with Oligarch Poroshenko(a member of the former Janukovitch-Government),taking all Gold of Ukraine just a few days after regime change to the USA and making his son Hunter Biden instantly member of the board of directors of ukrainian gas and oil company Burisma.
Therefore i do really believe that he is not just a christian and zionist but a christian-zionist-muslim and therefore expert in torah,bible and koran,;as long as it fits his agenda.
But something tells me he only serves one nameless religion which he use to practice at the bohemian grove ceremony.
Darren says
Joe Biden’ son is also is involved with Ukraine oil and gas… What a coincidence eh?
gravenimage says
I am no fan of Joe Biden on many issues, but being Christian and Zionist is not a contradiction—indeed, many Christians here at Jihad Watch support Israel, including Robert Spencer.
Israel is a democracy where Christians have full rights.
Surely you don’t want to see the destruction of democratic Israel, and its being replaced with the same kind of Islamic hell-hole that oppresses Christians and other Infidels?
zulu says
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/3932983323001
Muslims Tarek Fatah and Salim Mansur don’t back down from politicians who lecture them on their own religion.
Jay Boo says
Great video
It is sad to think that there are actually some Muslims who come to the US and Canada with a goal to eventually escape the thorns of Islam only to be confronted by smug PC politicians who unwittingly delay and hinder the path to freedom.
Jay Boo says
Note:
I was referring to some Muslims who come to the US and Canada in general.
voegelinian says
Robert Spencer has noted that Tarek Fatah is dubious (and being a Muslim is enough for us to suspect him — if we’re not JW Softies, that is).
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/muslims-protest-against-australia-terror-raids-there-is-anger-in-the-community-we-have-been-victimised-for-years-and-years/comment-page-1#comment-1121630
I wish the JW Softies would actually pay attention to Jihad Watch.
Jay Boo says
voegelinian
I don’t see anyone on this thread saying that Muslims Tarek Fatah and Salim Mansur should be trusted.
I am not sure if you are relying to Zulu or me here or just tossing out a bit of scatter shot to see where it lands.
Did you notice that I had already added:
“I was referring to some Muslims who come to the US and Canada in general.”
immediately after my comment just in case the unlikely possibility that someone might extrapolate more than I said knowing full well there might be a voeg lying in wait hoping to sermonize.
Jay Boo says
It should be obvious from Joe Biden’s response “Let me tell you one or two things about Islam.” that he did not actually want to talk TO Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but instead merely wanted to talk AT her.
duh_swami says
‘Let tell you one or two things about Islam’…He’s about right, one or two things is about all he knows…
somehistory says
You may be right, but then again, those one or two things could be wrong.
Reading through the comments, am trying to recall the saying about someone opening their mouth and showing everyone just how little they know. Have a feeling you recall it based on your enlightened comments in the past. Anyway, Biden often shows how little he knows just by opening his mouth.
pumbar says
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt”
Maurice Switzer.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
This is an example of not only unwillingness to learn,
but bad reporting. The reader is made curious about
what the “one or two things about Islam” were that
Imam Joe was going to impart, but the reporter failed
to ask him the obvious follow-up questions.
Mirren10 says
”The reader is made curious about
what the “one or two things about Islam” were that
Imam Joe was going to impart”
Well, that’s easy.
1) islam is a religion of peace.
2) It’s only a tiny minority of extremists who are violent.
See ? 🙂
Renee says
Ayaan is a hero. Very articulate and knowledgeable.
William says
Remember what Biden said during his race for the Presidency against Obama?
“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and CLEAN (my emphasis) and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”
Biden, with all his formal education, is not a wise man. He is a sycophant and one who will go wherever the prevailing wind leads him.
Truth says
Joe Biden is a bonehead.
Myxlplik says
Biden probably knows one or two things about Islam, the evidence is in his response. He did say the word Islam, which counts as one thing, because knowing the name is a thing to know.
So, Hirsi left she heard the thing he knew.
joe crocker says
Word was that after the exchange wit Hirsi Ali, Biden went up to MIT to tell them one or two things about Quantum Physics.
Mirren10 says
🙂 Nice one.
Al Sheeber says
Biden started as a rude, rube giving lectures to Golda Meir when he came to Israel as a brand newly elected Senator, Golda did not mince words with this inexperienced youth, she gave back. Mr. Ali is polite, minding her vulnerability-avoiding embarrassing a typical “useful idiot” like Biden, she let it at that. Biden is not only ethically challenged, stealing text from Socialist U.K M.P Neal Kinock for a speech, he had issues in law school as well, he is a caricature of some of the worst aspects of American politics. Those who voted for him need to atone for gifting the public with such dreadful V.P.
Paleologos says
Biden is in no position to lecture anybody about anything.
As you can see from this picture, he is unwilling to operate the brains God gave him …
http://www.ayblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/vice-president-biden-politics-congress-democrats-funny-true-demotivational-poster-1238039130.jpg
I would still take Biden over barry hussein, however. Better to have a stupid Catholic in the White House, rather than an ill-intended muslim Manchurian Candidate. 🙂
R/
Paleologos
Salah says
A useful Arabic to English translation to Biden and to all of us:
” و ” means ” and ”
“…marry those that please you of women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then one or those your right hand possesses.” (Qur’an 4:3)
WRONG translation.
While all translations of this verse are identical and while all Muslims and Muslim scholars agree on the above translation, it’s the wrong translation..
مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ
Has always been translated as: “two OR three OR four”
An exact and accurate translation should read: “two AND three AND four”
The arabic letter “و” means “and”. It CANNOT mean “or” and it CANNOT mean anything else.
Copy it and try it on Google Translate or on ANY other translation program. You’ll get the same result: ” و ” means ” and ” … nothing else.
N.B. 2 + 3 + 4 = 9, the number of Muhammad’s “legal” wives.
Jay Boo says
Get ready
I am about to say something outrageously shocking.
MUSLIMS ARE PEOPLE
Muslims are basically no different than anyone else.
They love, they hate, — are happy or sad etc. Some people join Islam and some leave.
The point here is that the world gives Islam much too much credit for being this all powerful ideology.
That is part of the problem, I believe.
Islamic ideology is just a shit-box. It truly is. It really has no power at all once it is exposed for what it really is:
Islam is (an excuse) posing as a religion.
People have always sought out excuses to justify actions that they know are morally wrong.
An excuse falls apart when it is exposed for what it is.
University professors wishing to teach a course on EXCUSE 101 could easily incorporate a critical examination of Islam into the syllabus of study. I believe this will come to pass.
Bettina says
Of course you’re right, JB. Islam is wholly made up of envy and covetousness, jealousy, rage, trickery, absolute lack of empathy and remorse — wait, have I just described the main attributes of sociopathy?
My own construct is that islam was and is an umbrella for violent sociopathy, therefore it has always aimed at providing the excuse of revelation to perpetrate crimes against humanity.
Yes, muslims are people — just as sociopaths and other assorted beastly creatures are people. So your point was…?
Mirren10 says
”Yes, muslims are people — just as sociopaths and other assorted beastly creatures are people. So your point was…?”
Hey, even Charles Manson is a human being …
🙂
voegelinian says
Jay Boo’s point, and the point of the other JW Softies (e.g., mortimer and RonaldB, et al.) seems to remain unclear; perhaps due to a confused, incoherent mush in their heart-&-mind, triggered by the Ethical Dissonance they dimly perceive arises from two opposing psychological forces within them:
1) their relative openness to the growing mountain of horrific data about Islam
2) their ethical concern for masses of human beings, further inflected by their retention of PC MC values in their hearts-&-minds (in which, perforce, lurks the PC MC White Guilt about all the non-white non-Westerners which the evil white West has mistreated over the the years, decades, centuries; right up to Ferguson, eh?).
Without #1, they would remain PC MC; with #1 they begin to feel enormous psychological pressure the more they learn about the horrors of Islam — for that pressure leads them logically to condemn Muslims. But they don’t follow that logic, and rather try everything they can to stymie it and blunt its force, in order to save Muslims from Islam — and more important to save Muslims from what WE might do to them, given that we are, of course, evil white Westerners with an eternal propensity toward racism and rounding up Brown People and genociding them… right?
That in sum is the point of the JW Softy.
voegelinian says
I wrote that “Without #1, they would remain PC MC” — i.e., they would be approximately at the position of Joe Biden. Their problem is that they are too irrationally afraid to let #1 override their #2.
Jen says
I wasn’t going to come back on this blog but I couldn’t resist. Then I came across Jay Boo’s comment. Thank you Voeg for your comments. Thank you to Jay Boo also for pointing out something NOBODY else would have guessed, had it not been for Jay Boo reminding everyone again that MUSLIMS ARE PEOPLE TOO! (And I bet they eat sandwiches also, so please, don’t be so mean. Might… hurt feelings, okay). It is far more useful to make useless distinctions which have no practical use, other than on an intimate level.
Voeg may also note that some people, while not explicitly stating it, seem to imply it is the White Man’s Burden to educate difficult-to-identify nominal Muslims (without applying social pressure or ‘animosity’..no no…Human rights, human rights! Don’t forget! Embarrassment may prove to be fatal, haven’t you heard? The onus being on the white Westerner of course, not the onus on the nominal Muslim who brands themselves with a title; thereby leaving the non-Muslim to question where on the Islamic continuum, their beliefs actually sit. Muslims already lie about being Muslim outside of the west when trying to fool non-Muslims into renting them their house or giving them a job. Muslims are known for doing this where my relatives live because names like “Muhammad” are a bit of a dead giveaway. Then once they’ve got the house or job, they revert back to showing they’re Muslim. If they were sincere, they would take a long, hard look at themselves and wonder why non-Muslims are so wary of them in such large numbers that they even need to lie about not being Muslim in the first place. Or that Christians need to lie about being Muslim when asked by a Muslim whether they are Christian or Muslim. Oh gee…Could it be that Muslims kidnap and behead Christians when they made the “error” of identifying as Christian when asked this question while caught off guard? How f*cked off, do you think a Christian is when they rent their house out to a Muslim family by mistake? And they can’t get rid of them because Muslims are known to resort to violence for any hair trigger event? Most Muslims in the West have only their immediate family and not their relatives such as cousins, aunts, uncles, second and third cousins so they cannot exert the same degree of influence in the west yet. Wait until those Muslim children grow up and have children of their own. Those children will have cousins as well as siblings and their cousins will have children also; thereby making it one. big. Muslim. clan. I’m talking 50-100+ people. Not the western concept of ‘family’ which focuses most on the nuclear family unit with those beyond the first or second degree of cousin being regarded as “distant” relatives. Most “distant” relatives, under the western understanding of family, would not do anything to help out a fellow “distant” relative unless they knew them personally. And most people in the west do not know many or any of their “distant” relatives personally. Not all cultures are like that, and sometimes purely being related and being aware of this is enough. Islamic culture, like others outside the west, does not lean toward individualism.
Would those piss weak individuals who can’t allow “#1 to override their #2” please stand up? Thanks…Okay good…I’ve got a gift for your grandchildren. It is a shovel. It will come in very handy for them to dig their graves. Especially as grandpa was a piss weak man who taught them useless on-paper theorizing; which has no practical application in a problem of this magnitude. I’ve been mulling over the Muslim problem where my relatives are and wondering what I could do to help…And since free speech against corrupt individuals is genuinely non-existent for the obvious reason that you will have zero chance of survival, the conclusion I came to was- trade? One of their Muslims for one of the west’s Christians. You know since there are many people in the west who take their freedom for granted and still don’t want to do anything to improve the situation and complain that dissent against Islam is “outlawed.” Even though I saw a ballsy individual called Paul Weston on Youtube the other day, yelling that Cameron was a traitor and that Islam is the problem. In public. With police protection. And there were other people standing there from the public. If these piss weak individuals keep claiming that freedom of speech is dead and use that as an excuse to do nothing, I would like you to nominate your hometown for this Muslim-Christian swap. Men these days will behave like women if you allow them to. The feminist movement has been wonderful in other ways but it has also helped to breed an entire crop of pseudo males. Meanwhile, the rest of the world hasn’t had their ‘masculinity’ beaten out of them and those people are moving into the west and overcoming the original population while the pseudo males wring their hands and write poetry describing how hurt they are that this is happening to them. Flippin’ hilarious…And sad…
voegelinian says
Thank you Jen, for your comment of December 11, 2014 at 7:36 pm — it really made my day — my week, my month, my year. Reading your eminent sense was like finding a sip of water after crawling in the desert for achingly long and parched time. If there aren’t Softies here at Jihad Watch, there are people beating their chest in cheap bravado & braggadocio about “Islam” — meanwhile they let blurt out now and again their views on Muslims — “not all Muslims are Muslim”; no, some of them are “ignorant” of their own Islam; some of them are “hypocritical”, most of them are “good people who hate Islam” — and similar nonsense that reeks with the stench of the pusillanimity of the wider mainstream PC MC we are supposed to be different from in here, for crying out loud.
Jay Boo says
Bettina,
I believe that Islam itself is a lot weaker that it appears to be,
Many former Muslims have already revealed Islam’s many vulnerabilities.
If we carefully pick our battles, the beast will collapse from within with very little effort needed on our part.
Jay Boo says
Jen
It is good to see that you noticed
All I am doing is stating an obvious simple fact.
It is not about bleeding heart compassion for Muslins or PC MC White Guilt as voeg suggests and which by the way you went down that same wrong rabbit hole that voeg layed out by saying.
(“don’t be so mean. Might… hurt feelings”)
I have probably criticized “Muslims” the people just as much as most other commenters so you and others need not suspect that I am calling anyone out for that. Also it should be obvious to anyone who reads my comments from time to time that I am not overly retsrained by PC.
—————————————
If we focus too much on Muslims and label them as BAD — we get to feel GOOD.
That is a nice simple solution except that it doesn’t work well when it is overused.
That is when the Bidens’ and Obamas’ come out to scoop up the Islamophobia.
for Example:
Obama took out a hit on Osama with a military solution and that is fine, good riddens.
But that is only treating the symptoms
Obama also said, “The future does not belong to those who insult Islam.”
That is how the disease is fed and that is a bigger problem.
We can demonize Muslims and feel good for a moment or we can really get to the root of the problem and think on a bigger scale.
Jen says
I’m taking the piss. It’s because you pointed out that Muslims are human again. Gee, didn’t know- thanks! If you also watch the interviews of regular but notorious serial killers and rapists, you will also find that they often had childhood problems and also have some residual capacity for being good, despite everything they’ve done. Not a single person on the planet doesn’t have a bit of yin and yang. You sound like a person who is not likely to do much about anything. It’s not about “feeling good.” It’s about not wasting time talking about nothing. I.e. Whether Muslims are human or not. You can’t get to the root of the problem without actually addressing the people who give legitimacy to the religion by professing to belong to it. That is all Muslims in all stripes; who don’t suffer collective guilt over the behaviour of their fellow Muslims sufficient enough to make them stop identifying as Muslim. They in themselves, should carry that burden. I can tell by your other comments that you appear to give a certain leeway to people who act irresponsibly. Like the idea of whether church leaders should be burdened fully for not knowing about Islam or not. People are personally responsible for themselves in this life. Choosing to drop your guard is a choice. Choosing not to read, think, investigate and question is a choice. That goes for anybody and especially those in leadership positions who elect to take on a heavier than normal burden because of the position they assume. Carrying the weight of being Muslim in a climate where their fellow Muslims are butchering people relentlessly and choosing not to exert pressure on themselves is a choice. One that they will probably not come to realise without a healthy dose of social pressure. Preferably negative social pressure which leads to discomfort. Almost nobody, given the option of being comfortable, will put themselves willingly in a position of discomfort. Questioning your own beliefs, particularly in regards to religion is discomforting. Are you by any chance, one those people who tends to allow yourself to have a lot of excuses when you do the wrong types of things or procrastinates and then excuses yourself and keeps doing it? Because I notice that people who do this with themselves, often apply that same mentality to other people or scenarios. It’s like some kind of subliminal guilt where they can’t feel like the pot calling the kettle black. You sound like a candidate for being dropped off somewhere so you can experience Islam and Muslims the hard way. Not a fully Islamic area, but a 50/50 split type scenario so that the ghastly subjugation aspect of Islam can be put on display. You’ve probably been reading this blog for quite some time. Islamophobia is a mythical term which means nothing. It’s like sticks and stones just rolling off my back. There should be no burden, shame, weight or anything else associated with being labelled as such. People should get comfortable being called this and ignore it and continue on with the same message. The word only has legitimacy because people think it should be something to be feared. Which is ridiculous. Its smearing capability could never even come close to the ammunition of Islam and the enormous of body of evidence showing Muslims acting in accordance with it. Rather than worrying about words, people should repeatedly recall that it is far more frightening to lose your freedoms, to be at risk of being kidnapped, to live in a Muslim dominated place where you are at their mercy, all of the time. Apples to oranges.
Jay Boo says
Jen
I don’t know where to start.
I am at a loss of words.
I sense a large wave of ad hominem hyperbole swelling just beneath the surface of that reply.
There is so much unfounded floating debris to dodge, that I think I will just leave that one alone.
Jen says
You’ve been visiting this website for probably quite a long time and STILL keep saying these things like it makes any difference to the overall situation. Somewhat baffling. Unless you personally try to convert Muslims to some other religion or create some kind of program to convince Muslims to leave Islam personally, there is no use in highlighting the fact that each Muslim is an individual and each person has a personality which makes them human. Collectively speaking, few nominal Muslims do anything to help the situation. How, without making a fool of yourself in front of anyone who knows anything about Islam, are you supposed to criticise a belief system while identifying with it at the same time? Clinging onto Islam for some cultural or sentimental reason is not an acceptable mode of living. Walking around, calling yourself a Muslim, meanwhile, Muslims are killing thousands of people in the name of the god that these same nominal Muslims, claim at least a symbolic attachment to? That’s rather unsavory and something worthy of some kind of reprehension. Non-Muslims risk their safety to come out and discuss Islam and educate people. Similarly, nominal Muslims, identifying as Muslim who don’t pull their weight, are not somehow deemed excused because they refuse to confront reality for themselves, when the information is so readily available. This is a choice which is in the hands of the individual. People that don’t emphasise personal responsibility in their own lives and rely on other people to pull the weight that they should be pulling, tend *not* to hold other people to a similar standard. You can’t expect from anyone else, what you yourself, don’t offer, can you. There is a definite kind of trend in human behaviour which can be recognised. People generally favour one or the other category most, depending on their life outlook- either they make excuses and look for subtleties to explain why they didn’t do what they were supposed to do, or the alternatively they generally take responsibility for their role, if any, in a situation as much as possible because their own behaviour is something they can actually control, unlike that of everyone else. Whichever side they favour most, forms their dominant ethos and usually, not surprisingly, influences the yardstick that they use when applying their thoughts to other scenarios involving other people. Even political persuasion is influenced by this outlook. The leftards for instance, often complain a lot about how hard life is and how many obstacles people have to overcome, instead of focusing on the solution which would start with fixing their self-defeating attitude. An aspect actually changeable. And even though not everyone has the same drive or ability, the drive is largely self-created and probably more imperative than ability. But since they don’t want to accept that, they would prefer to complain about their circumstances (which solves nothing) and tie down the people who contribute more than they do because the other person got off their butt and pulled their weight regardless of the obstacles, while they didn’t. Blaming “the system” is much more comforting than bearing personal responsibility. Whichever side you favour in general, colours your opinions and personal decisions.
Champ says
Yes, Jay Boo, you are smart to leave that one alone …
Jen has placed you under a microscope and taken your inventory–up one side–and then down the other. Wow talk about hypercritical! ..and I thought she left us loooong ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get lost “Jen”.
Champ says
Please by all means continue to impart your wisdom and ideas, for they are very refreshing to see, compared to the usual soft intellectual approach.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sadly, you don’t know Jen very well …she is notorious for criticizing posters *more* than islam & company. Yes, her “wisdon” is very refreshing indeed; if only she could stick to the real enemy: islam.
Champ says
Drakken, ok, fair enough …
That said, I’ve been on JW long enough to know that islam is the real enemy, and that friendly fire only tears down morale on this forum. I think that targetting the real enemy should be our primary aim.
Take care.
Jay Boo says
Champ
Thanks for your support concerning Jen’s December 12, 2014 at 4:17 am comment
that began with the words “I’m taking the piss. ”
Jen’s follow-up comment that Drakken applauded was much better and more reasonable by a 1000 times then the earlier disaster but the way these follow up comments get bunched up at first glance combined with the sudden 180 shift in tone and logic it appears that Drakken was applauding the whole package.
Take care
Jay Boo says
Then again
Drakken’s December 12, 2014 at 4:48 pm comment might suggest there is a desire to buy the whole package. But that is another issue.
Jen says
Jay Boo, the only thing that will be a disaster is people failing to act and stand up for their way of life; because for whatever reason, they have a sense of being removed from the scenarios that they are reading about and the harsh reality that this kind of problem will bring to people. Every person should be doing something about this. Every single person. Though, predictably this probably won’t happen due to excuse making that is inherent in human nature and their desire to remain as comfortable as possible for as long as possible, but everyone *should* be doing something. Having self-discipline means not allowing yourself to be let off the hook when talking about something where action can’t wait. It will get worse, not better in the near future because the Muslims are present, whether people like it or not. Personally, I do actually doubt the effectiveness of leaders in western countries and the extent that they can or will go to fix the problem; given the type of mindset we have in the west today. Like Drakken, I do see an all out Balkans scenario in future. They are probably laying plans and sorting out their logistics as to how they will do this as we speak. I.e. trying to carve out territory for themselves, starting with a small piece and getting larger if they actually succeed. Many of them have western passports so they can move freely. Many people don’t know basic survival skills or have any kind of firearms training at all. If there was actually an area being attacked and it was unexpected, people would be scrambling to safety and likely getting stranded somewhere until help could arrive. If it does arrive, that is. Since the future is quite likely to be unstable, people should be teaching themselves and their families these basic skills. The west has many paper shufflers today who are detached from knowing these basic skills because the west generally views itself as safe compared to THOSE countries over THERE, having conflicts in that far-off land. But it is coming to the west’s doorstep now, so now is the time to organise these things while people still have the opportunity.
Jen says
Champ, the real enemy is Islam; the Muslim behaviour carried out in direct relation to Islam’s beliefs, the Muslim population generally who provide a source of funding through mosques and other avenues, who provide support for dawah and making new converts, and providing a steady stream of jihadists whether converts or otherwise; and the complacent and gutless people living in the west who refuse to do enough to stand up to the problem and expect it to somehow work itself out by expecting everyone else to do a disproportionate amount of productive work in counter-jihad.
RCCA says
Biden isn’t nearly as “dumb” as he appears. Here’s a look at what he’s done behind the scenes with his power and the family legacy. It makes you kind of wonder, what connections does he have in the Muslim world?
“Hunter Biden:The Hunter Biden Chronicles” By Michelle Malkin – October 22, 2014
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/10/22/the_hunter_biden_chronicles_124381.html#ixzz3Lbr93y26
Darren says
Freedom, Democracy in Ukraine and Hunter Biden getting a job with a Ukraine oil and gas company??
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/7/ukrainian-energy-firm-hires-biden-son-as-lawyer/?page=all
Jay Boo says
I one heard a quote something to the effect of:
“One of the worst ways to deal with villainy is to give it credibility.”
jay says
I just get an increasing sense of dread and despair and deep sadness every time I come on this site. Take me back before I even knew what Islam was please. It keeps me up at night.
cs says
Me too, but the the thing is, it is real, very real, whether we want it or not, and if we close our eyes, it will not go away. We talking to our friends we a good base, it may make a difference.
No Fear says
When I read the Quran I was horrified. I had previously read most other religious texts but had not got round to reading the Quran. The Quran was so disturbing I got insomnia. I know other religious texts are violent but it is in a more ‘mythological’ context .e.g the Bhagavad Gita or the Old Testament. The violence in the Quran is ‘imperative’ coming straight from ‘Allah’ in the present tense.
Samantha says
I got so depressed reading the Koran, I couldn’t finish it!
Mo says
@ Samantha
I was so sickened by it that I read maybe 1/3 and had to put it aside. It was months before I got up the will/strength to finish it!
Holy Prophet APF says
When I read the Quran I was horrified.
When I read the Ko-Ran I was unsurprised. I went to a college with many foreign students, and remember that on Saturday on the Commons the Pakis were always sitting and scowling, and what few women was among them were in a side group. By contrast, the Hindus were dancing around smiling and throwing Frisbees, and the women were right there with them.
ramaram says
What do you mean by violent text in Bhaghavat Geeta. Lord Krishna said to Arjuna, a king, to fight his enemy, his cousin who had unjustly gotten his kingdom to fight for the sake of dharma as he is a king. As a king he it is his duty to protect society. That fight was not about SPREADING RELIGION. It is the Abrahamic religions which have these ideas of spreading their religion through warfare.
MrIpe says
Not abrahamic religions but Islam is the religion which commands to kill unbelievers and apostates. Christianity really puts emphasis on your own free will.
gravenimage says
This isn’t about “Abrahamic religions”—this is about Islam. Only Islam has tenets of spreading the faith by the sword.
PatnCats says
I totally understand what you folks are saying….I read the koran last year, then I began reading books written by ex-muslim women – if you want the truth – ask a woman.
As a woman and a widow, I was appalled at how barbaric islam is for women. I remember Christianiana Amampour showing film footages of Afghan women in light blue burkas being shot in the head in the soccer area. I was shocked. They had protested the Taliban making them stay home and not work, no more doctors, no more jobs, women without men forced to beg on the streets for food for their children. A male relative having to accompany them – even a small boy child to vouch for the women’s chastity. No more education for women. We’ve seen no more of Christianana Amanpour on that subject I’ve noticed, not for a long time.
What happened?
Ayattollahowmany says
FOCUS!!
“All that is required for evil to flourish is that good people do NOTHING…”
THINK about that.
PatnCats says
“They repay me evil for good
and hatred for my freindship.” Psalms 109:5
Sounds like the USA’s foreign policy for decades.
Remember trying to feed the starving people in Somalia?
Our soldiers attacked, killed and dragged thru the streets?
I imagine those bastards were also muslims, but our news media hides this from us.
Alissa says
Jay…I feel the same way. Watching Sun News is what brought me to this site and enlightened me to what is going on around me. That deep sense of dread and despair is exactly how I feel too. It’s almost sorrow. I don’t feel optimistic about the future anymore. We’ve entered into a whole different world of fear and danger; loss of freedom of speech; bleak prospects for the future. I think people intuitively feel that one way or another, sooner or later, this problem is leading to blood shed for us and our children.
dumbledoresarmy says
Just hang on.
Remember: the enemy *want* us to despair. They *want* us to feel powerless. They *want* us to give up.
“I have been made victorious by terror” – that was what Mohammed said, according to the Hadiths.
Refuse to give in. Get hold of the book “Getting Through” and read and reread it and practise on the people around you. The more non-Muslims realize what Islam is, realize how dangerous it is and therefore how dangerous/ potentially-dangerous Muslims are, the better; then real pressure will begin to be put on politicians.
But: make sure to feed your soul.
At one level: humour, even black humour. Remember the “Riddikulus!” charm in Harry Potter, that defeats the boggarts.
At another level – soul food. Whatever strengthens you. Again, I’ll use terminology from Harry Potter – the “Expecto Patronum” that drives away the soul-sucking Dementors.
Are you Jewish or Christian, or secular?
Whichever:
This year, Hanukkah comes right before Christmas. Hanukkah runs 17 December to 24 December. Read about Hanukkah: what it remembers.
This year – send a Hanukkah card, a Hanukkah greeting, to the Israeli ambassador in Canada. Give *Israel* some encouragement.
Then, if you are Christian or secular – celebrate Christmas, **with intent**.
“The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has never overcome it”. – so said St John the Divine, in the first chapter of his gospel.
Read G K Chesterton – I suggest the poems “The Ballad of St Barbara” and “The Ballad of the White Horse”. And read the Psalms; the dark, despairing, angry psalms as well as the joyful ones.
If a believer: PRAY.
gravenimage says
For the people despairing on this thread—remember what we have, and that it is worth defending!
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has gone through hell, suffering FGM, frequent beatings, facing a forced marriage to a cousin she did not love, and then facing death threats and the murder of her friend and partner on the film Submission Theo van Gogh.
But despite the ways in which many in the West have failed her—most recently American Vice-President Joe Biden, above—she has been buoyed by the values of the free West, and by those who *have* fought for them through the ages.
Can we, who are native to the West and are her direct inheritors, do anything less than fight for our values?
Don’t give up!
Julie says
God has removed His hand of protection, I believe. America is saturated with her sins and doesn’t care. There is no evidence of contrition. Even the Christian churches have strayed from Him.
gravenimage says
So, Julie—does that mean that you believe that American victims of JIhad deserve it, and should just roll over and accept this evil?
And whatever the shortcomings of America and the rest of the West—and some of them are grave—the idea that any of this would be improved if we were suffering under brutal Shari’ah law is questionable to say the least.
I don’t know about you, but I intend to fight, and to stand up for the victims of Islam. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is standing up for us—sorry that you would not want to do the same.
One can work to improve one’s own society—I do—without believing that our failings mean that God wants us to suffer under a far worse evil.
maqabim says
Julie, not all American churches are apostate. The ones that are the Lord is more than capable of dealing with, and historically the faith, where it really is practiced, is always the strongest when challenged. Keep your chin up.
David says
Thal about a real problem
Lesley says
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a champion for women’s right and the voice of reason. I’m grateful for her voice in the world :0)
John Dale says
Yes Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of the world’s true heroines. You have to admire her courage and her intellect.
cs says
Respect.
David Harding says
Only YHWH will resolve this, he will defend Israel and we shall benefit
somehistory says
And resolve it, He will; and soon.
Champ says
Oh dear God, please don’t let anything happen to obama …
kilfincelt says
Not unless it also happens to Biden.
David Pimentel says
Do you really think that John Boehner is any better than those other two nut jobs? The tree of American politics must be pruned significantly before finding any good fruit.
jimmi says
Nothing new here… politicians lie in order to please the audiences.
pongide rex says
The USA and Europe have the stupidest leadership in place since August 1914.
albert says
Never give up your safeguard yanks, that is your right to bear arms, at least if muslim mobs ever rampage through your streets, as they ALWAYS do when they are in sufficient number ( I am talking FRANCE, GERMANY, HOLLAND, BELGIUM, SWEDEN and ENGLAND not the middle east ) then at least you will be able to band together and defend your neighbourhoods, but watch, the liberals will try and take your weapons first.
Aion says
That is the problem with liberals, they think they know more about everything from their time spending “A Short Introduction to …” or from what they’ve been told by spokes people from organizations, without analyzing what and why they may say what they are saying. They think they know more about subjects than those who are most intimately knowledgeable about them, because they are so sure they are right, more intelligent than everyone else and better simply by deciding they are rather than developing real knowledge and credentials.
voegelinian says
The lesson to learn from this spectacle is not that Biden did this because he’s Leftist and reflects the Dastardly Cabal of Leftist Elites who are the Only Problem explaining Western Myopia. Nor is it that Biden is merely a numbskull (stupidity); nor that he is knowingly doing evil (helping Muslims while knowing they are our enemy) for Ukranian Pipeline Greed (cupidity).
Neither should we lapse lazily back into the Esdrujulo Explanation (it must be Stupidity, Cupidity, or Timidity) — nor should we reach for the Conspiracy Theory.
What else is left? Why, PC MC, of course — the dominant, mainstream worldview of the West that shines like the sun on a partly cloudy day; a worldview that has come to affect (and infect) the hearts and minds of millions and millions of relatively decent, intelligent Westerners from sea to shining sea — from Australia to France, from New Zealand to England, from Scandinavia to Spain, from Greece to Germany, from the Netherlands to Italy, from Denmark to America, from Canada to… well, you get the picture.
Why this massive explanation seems so often to elude the Counter-Jihad Folks seems strange. Perhaps it’s the old “Can’t-See-the-Forest-for-the-Trees” phenomenon. Perhaps it’s sheer intellectual laziness. Perhaps sometimes it’s subcultural predilections that predispose the Counter-Jihadist in question to feel alienated from Gubmint and so to explain all evil that way.
At any rate, the Counter-Jihad needs to realize that the real problem of the problem — the problem of the West’s myopia to the problem of Islam — is not so much a problem concerning Islam, but rather a problem concerning Muslims. However much both sides may protest that their focus is on Islam (the one to condemn it, the other to defend it), what’s really going on with PC MCs like Biden is a deeply felt yet semi-conscious anxiety to protect millions of ordinary Muslims. Protect them from what? Why, from the ever-lurking potential of the Evil White West to devolve into a Backlash against Muslims, because Westerners, you see, have an overwhelming potential to be “bigots” and “racists” — just look at our history, right? All those genocides against Third World peoples under Evil White Colonialism, all that slavery, all that oppression of Brown People; etc. That’s the Reverse Racist Paradigm which PC MC in its neurotic-obsessive cultivation of White Guilt guides all its feelings and thoughts on sociopolitical policy. Then the PC MC looks out at Muslims and sees a sea of Brown People (or a lovely mosaic, tapestry, quilt, stir-fry, diversity of Colored People) — and this in turn triggers the hot buttons of its neurotically excessive and irrational White Guilt, which moves it succumb always to its reflex spasms of the White Man’s Burden to ever protect, defend, and respect the Muslim.
In short, Biden (and the typical PC MC) semi-consciously realizes that Islam is a Pandora’s Box of shit just waiting to hit the proverbial fan; and this semi-conscious realization in turn leads to the dread that the problems with which this Pandora’s Box is unstably brimming — including a metastasizing increase in violent threats against our societies — will logically require us to take action to prevent or at least minimize it. But Biden (and the typical PC MC) cannot allow this logic to unfold, for semi-consciously he realizes it will compel us to take action against Muslims. What kind of action? In their feverish, hyperventilating minds, of course, the only action the Evil White West could take is to round up all Muslims, put them in camps, and genocide them — after a maelstrom of backlash happens in the form of roving vigilante mobs of wild-eyed Christian Teabaggers and Euro-Right-Wing Soccer Hooligans.
voegelinian says
Re: my last sentence above. There are other measures to take against Muslims — all of which amount to an Either/Or choice that hinges on whether we want to continue to allow them to thrive by the millions inside our societies, or whether we want to reverse that disastrous policy the West has embarked upon over the past half century (insanely and perversely accelerating it post-911). The former choice would strangely involve so many hostile measures against our resident Muslim populations inside the West — heightened surveillance of mosques (all mosques? or as the JW Softy might propose, only the obvious “extremist radical” mosques (which, presumably, one can identify by the helpful signs they post out front with an arrow indicating “Extremist Radical Islamist Mosque Here!”)); heightened surveillance of Muslims (all Muslims? or as the JW Softy might propose, only the obvious “extremist radical” Muslims who helpfully advertise their radical extremism by sporting Mohammedan garb and beards and scowling in unfriendly fashion while they candidly express mainstream Islam like an Anjem Choudry); halting most or all Muslim immigration; passing laws hostile to mainstream Islam (i.e., simply enforcing existing Western laws, since mainstream Islam is already criminal according to our laws, although most Muslims in the West are pretending not to practice and support it); and so forth. Then what? Wait while all these measures will only inflame an already inherently volatile population inside our societies?
Or we can choose to deport Muslims from the West (TO THE DAR-AL-ISLAM — for those JW Softies who keep asking with their tongues wagging out of their heads dripping saliva onto the page, “But where are you going to deport them to…???”).
An Iron Veil
http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2009/05/iron-veil.html
Questions about the ‘Iron Veil’
http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2009/10/questions-about-iron-veil.html
Wellington says
I went to your website, voegelinian, and perused the “Iron Veil” statement and comments to it. It seems to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you see the impediment to mass deportation of Muslims from the West as solely a pc/mc problem, that if pc/mc thinking about Islam would completely end (which I myself would greatly welcome), then the last impediment to mass deportation of Muslims would be removed and deportation could proceed accordingly (and for now let us both assume the “where to?” matter is not a factor). Is this a fair statement of your position? Your turn.
voegelinian says
“Drakken” is either a plant or someone of an apocalyptic temperment. How does he know it’s “too late” for deportation? It’s not apodictically set in stone that it is either too late now, nor will it be after a few more million Muslims immigrate into the West and are reproduced here in their ongoing Demographic Jihad (the third wing of their triple jihad — the other two being the Stealth Jihad and the Violent Jihad). But to apodictically declare it’s “too late” is, in fact, a way to try to hinder such a meme from having effect in the ongoing war of ideas phase in which we are conducting this war. It’s either an inept way to try to hinder it — or a clever way.
Wellington says
I went again to your website, voegeinian, and in particular the one dealing with the tennis volley between you and me. My first impression on reading through what I wrote to you on more than one thread struck me as satisfactory. My second impression was that you still don’t get it. You think that since Muslims are waging war against us (which they are in their own unique and warped way, though in piecemeal, sporadic, non-national and even at times non-military fashion), therefore mass deportation is not only highly advisable but doable. One particular sentence of yours stuck out for me because it demonstrates a fundamental error on your part. It’s this one: “Any given Muslim’s Islam is already a violation of our laws and furthermore is an act of war.” To which I say, no it isn’t. Virtually no judge in America, state or federal, would agree with you that “Any given Muslim’s Islam is a violation of our laws…….” Right there you lose the volley, et al. Game. Set. Match. I understand full well that YOU think Islam is a viiolation of our laws. Problem is that almost no one else does, including the entire American judiciary. And so what are you going to do about this “little problem?”
BTW, a person that did comment, one “Egghead,” did say something I agree with and which I have mentioned on occasion here at JW and that is that the interpretation (and also the body) of the Constitution is not fixed and statutory law is changeable. It might be necessary to interepret the Constitution differently OR have a constitutional amendment which would make Islam the exception to the protection of religion which is found in the First Amendment OR have Congress pass a law (or laws) against Islam and remove judicial review pursuant to Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution. I do believe that present law allows for a proper dealing of Islam in America, AS LONG AS Islam is viewed as a negative by those in charge of running the government, which would have to include all three branches of the government, but I’m not certain of this and constitutional and/or statutory changes, as Egghead suggested, might be necessary. Not sure here since Islam is an enemy of America like no other enemy ever has been and thus changes in the law might be necessary, though I would still say probably not.
Champ says
Wellington says
December 12, 2014 at 2:36 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bravo, Wellington!!
Wellington says
Your 3:18 P.M. post, Drakken, is a powerful one. Damn disturbing too, though that was your intention, as it should have been. I still remain cautiously optimistic long term that liberty will win out over Islam. One thing is for sure and that is that these two simply cannot be reconciled. Anyone saying so is either demonstrating their ignorance or their mendacity. As I have long posted here at JW, the key to defeating Islam in the West, and this is imperative, is that it be overwhelmingly seen, including by the vast majority in positions of power in Western nations, for the totalitarian ideology which it is——and there is no reforming a totalitarian ideology and Islam is the only major faith which is such.
I see much, much trouble ahead, though even more so because of the willful blindness or cowardice or both of the current crop of Western elites than because of Islam itself, menacing as it is. When (If?) Islam is finally recognized for the freedom-crushing, desultory, anti-Western belief system which it is, then an empowered and properly led West can, I truly believe, defeat what Islam plans for us all. But, oh my God, it’s going to be a very bloody affair even assuming the West finally produces people in positions of power who know full well just how terrible Islam is.
Thank you for your service to America. I might add that I welcome your insights here at JW. Very much so. Take care.
Jen says
I am warning people that if the situation does not improve pronto and folks stand up for themselves and their way of life, things are going to rapidly spiral out of everyone’s control and go full on Balkans.
——————————————————————
@Drakken
Thank youuu. Action people, action. I am flippin’ crapping myself on behalf of people choosing not to take this problem seriously enough. I have a relative in the UK who is in politics but this person is a leftard and is doing nothing to highlight the problem of Islam to people despite being well recognised. I know they can’t because it doesn’t fit within their ethos and turning around and doing it now would look absurd after everything they’ve told people. These people should be using their platform, but they’re not. It really frustrates me. In fact, this relative has called right wing party “racist” for commenting on immigration. People need to find all these leaders on social media at the very least and embarrass them in great numbers so they stop saying this crap which is effectively helping to shield Islam. I consider this person to be a good person, but they don’t know what they’re doing. This person loves their job but their outlook is for the wrong times. The UK has a growing Muslim problem; full stop. Life is rough for people living at the mercy of a Muslim population who are volatile. Anyone who has read anything about Islam can see this. Most people, despite what they say now; will turn ‘uncivilized’ when they’re faced with a present danger. Just watch…Humans have not changed that much despite how far they may feel we’ve come. Those that don’t will be trampled on; which is reality unfortunately.
Champ says
Drakken says
December 12, 2014 at 3:18 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bravo, Drakken!! ..thank you for being here.
voegelinian says
Drekken in his response to me seems to be using language of certainty for matters (dire matters) that are uncertain. Thus, he knows for certain that “deporting millions of muslims … is completely economically, politically and physically impossible to do…”. A sobering argument militating against deportation may or may not be persuasive. We don’t know yet from Drekken, since he hasn’t offered one; only his apodictic claim and implications that his long-time experience on the ground should suffice to make that apodictic claim reliable. Given that we are not merely talking about second-order problems, but an unfolding catastrophe here, Drekken’s post is analogous to some stranger shouting through the smoke and confusion, “Don’t use water on the fire!” with only seconds left to decide whether their advice in this dire circumstance should be heeded or not, and he adds, shouting again through the smoke, “I’ve spent 30 years working with fire departments!”
In addition to this problem in Drekken’s comments, he only doomsays in vague terms about the unfolding catastrophe looming ahead, but seems to offer no concrete ideas for proposals about what specific policy the West could, and should, pursue to avert – or at least to minimize – said catastrophe. I agree that it is reasonable for us to suppose that as the years unfold ahead, Muslims will cause increasing violence, stepping from category to category – from (a) low-level, seemingly disconnected terror attacks (which include supposedly “lone wolf” attacks or merely two Muslims, like the Rigby beheading in London) along with amorphous and diffuse criminality (drug gangs, rape-&-prostitution gangs, seemingly random rapes, street hooliganism, etc.); stepping up to (b) activities that more and more resemble (but have not yet actually risen to the level of) civil unrest; and from there (c) moving up to mass activities along with small commando operations resembling actual military or para-military assaults logically the first phase of a frank military invasion.
Among many problems I’ve noticed in the analytical prognostications proffered among (mostly) civilians* in the Counter-Jihad, there is the reckless sense that confuses (a), (b) and (c) and does not try to distinguish them – to wit, that what Muslims have been doing in Europe now for the last few years is all three ((a), (b) and (c)), and not rather (for now) pretty much only (a), with only premonitions of the potential to phase up into (b).
If one is erroneous about one’s diagnosis of the problem, one’s prognostications of the immediate future – and one’s prescriptions for what we should do (and what it is “impossible” to do, pace Drekker) may well be seriously faulty. One faulty prognostication would be the “Chicken Little” doomsaying that insists in hyperventilating fashion that “WE DON’T HAVE DECADES! THE SKY IS FALLING NOW!!!” One does hesitate to critique a view for this, because of the vulnerability such a critique suffers from having the appearance of taking our ongoing devolving situation too lightly.
It does seem that Drekker is doing just this – confusing (a), (b) and (c), thus generating an excessively impatient (and pessimistic) prognostication. These two adjectives I just used do bring up an interesting and curious paradox such Chicken Little pov’s seem to have: namely, that if our situation is that abysmally bad (hence the “pessimistic” – for the language they use verges on abject hopelessness), why then are they “impatient”…? What are they recommending we actually do? And what point would it have, if we are already doomed anyway? They never seem to get into specifics enough to answer these questions.
At any rate, as for my previous characterization of the ostensible problem my position has – namely, “the vulnerability such a critique suffers from having the appearance of taking our ongoing devolving situation too lightly” – I have already said on this thread (and on numerous occasions elsewhere on other threads at Jihad Watch and at Gates of Vienna, as well as on my blog) that I foresee that the proverbial shit is going to hit the fan. I.e., I don’t take lightly the horrific events that will likely unfold as the West continues to pursue its Head-in-the-Sand policy with regard to its Muslim populations. And furthermore, I don’t take lightly the likelihood that these horrific events will only escalate paradoxically as the West begins to wake up. It’s reasonable to suppose that the West will not suddenly wake up and go from its current Position A (i.e., ridiculously myopic due to its dominant PC MC view) straight to Position F (deportation), but rather that the West will stumble along as it awakens, with its limbs still asleep, its head foggy and still shaking off its PC MC, and stumbling along from A to B to C to D to E (i.e., heightened surveillance of mosques and Islamic “centers”; heightened measures against “extremist Islamists” which, because heightened, will more and more impinge upon seemingly harmless and moderate Muslims as its dragnet logically widens to accommodate the dimensions of the problem (though of course it won’t widen with full rational logic because the West will still be half-asleep, still half-numb with the Dreams of PC MC it can’t fully shake off yet); and increasing restrictions on immigration) — before it finally realizes that F (deportation) is the only option, given the true nature of the problem (as opposed to the fantasy natures it had been indulging and wishing all along).
I.e., as we reasonably suppose that as the situation is unfolding and unraveling — from phase (a) to phase (b) with an inexorable impetus toward (c) in the offing, on the Muslim side, and from Reaction A to B to C on our side as we stumbling along shaking off the sleepy head we’ve been indulging for so many decades thus far – the West will likely see the horrific gravity of the situation in its actual & accurate dimensions (as opposed to the fantasy dimensions it had been indulging and wishing all along), and will quickly and collectively decide to skip steps D and E and go straight to F.
Now, if the Muslims are already at their phase (c ) – or if they will very soon according to the Chicken Little calendar get there – then of course option F (deportation) would be at that point pragmatically untenable, and the situation would have devolved and unraveled to an actual world war being fought on the ground and in the streets of the West itself.
I maintain, however, that it is highly reckless and irresponsible, absent sufficient proof, to say Muslims are already at phase (c ), and to say that the situation won’t rather devolve over the course of the next few decades, rather than in Chicken Little fashion to urge that we have no time left. This reckless and irresponsible meme is even more troubling when it comes from someone who “spent 24 years in a combination of USMC, and as a Federal Special Agent … [has] dealt with Islamic issues now on [his] 3rd decade [and who is] in the ME working there, seeing it first hand … [and who has] worked all over the ME, Africa and the Far East…”.
* Note: by “civilians” I don’t mean people who’ve never served in the military or in intelligence, as Drekker has; I mean people who do not seem to be part of the unofficial leadership of the Counter-Jihad (unofficial because nobody actually appointed or elected them to their position and because there isn’t really an official Counter-Jihad movement that would confer upon them the explicit status of leadership per se; only a vaguely amorphous sentiment based upon their ongoing activities (e.g., a Robert Spencer or a Frank Gaffney; but not a Drekker per se).
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Drekken in his response to me seems to be using language of certainty for matters (dire matters) that are uncertain. Thus, he knows for certain that “deporting millions of muslims … is completely economically, politically and physically impossible to do…””
You, on the other hand, never made a case for the opposite, despite it being a recurring theme in your diatribes, i.e., that deporting muslims is economically, politically and physically feasible (let’s overlook the unconstitutionality of what you preach, for the sake of your argument), or even that it would solve the islamic issue rather than aggravate it. As usual, you prefer to spend your time deriding a user that opposes islam and jihad just because he disagrees with you on a subject without ever defending your position or giving any real answer to his arguments – you seem to work under the logic of “they disagree with me therefore they’re wrong, and it’s not up to me to explain why they’re wrong, I expect other users to do so”.
And then you whine when “none of the stalwart Jihad Watchers lifted a finger to defend” you or your position…
“In addition to this problem in Drekken’s comments, he only doomsays in vague terms about the unfolding catastrophe looming ahead, but seems to offer no concrete ideas for proposals about what specific policy the West could, and should, pursue to avert – or at least to minimize – said catastrophe.”
Projection, thy name is voegelinian!
gravenimage says
Drakken wrote:
alas, I am afraid that islam is going to eat Lady Liberty for lunch. I am also concerned that what we get after all is said and done will be something completely different from what form of Government we have today.
…………………………….
I must admit I find it curious that you consider deportation of Muslims impossible, but consider some sort of apocalyptic civil war that ends in the destruction of liberty and democracy to be acceptable.
Other societies have managed the mass expulsion of Muslims, and under more dire circumstances than we face today—Spain, Portugal, Greece, Sicily, and parts of the Balkans, southern Italy, and southern France have all managed it, and managed it after having been under full oppresssive Muslim rule.
I hasten to add that I am not convinced that this is yet necessary in the West—I believe if we enforce our current laws consistently and vigorously, it will be sufficient.
But I certainly would champion full deportation of Muslims over what you are suggesting.
Another point—while the logistics were perforce somewhat different, it is well worth noting that Fascism was unable to eat Lady Liberty for lunch—I think the lady is made of sterner stuff than you give her credit for.
And finally, one of the main reasons I oppose Islam is to *maintain* our liberties. The idea that we have to destroy all our values in order to oppose Islam’s destruction of them is a perverse proposal, and gives us little to fight for.
cs says
I did not finish your text, but mind you,if this scenario comes into play, this western civilization will be a dictatorship as well.
It is NWO scenario, made up with the help of the Muslims, used as a proper excuse, to turn all of us incarcerated in a sort of nightmare, I believe all our freedoms may be at risk there.
I don’t think it is impossible, people did force them into Europe, in order to make us wanting to deport those lousy MF£$kers.
I have this thinking with me for a very long time, since I heard Bat yeor a long time ago, with her Eurabia proposition.
cs says
Let me just expand, I cannot believe, people who run things behind the scenes, did not predict that those barbarians would not run havoc at some point in time. If a average intellectual can predict that, how come the best brains, the real deal of manipulation and intelligence could not predict it???
That is my point. and I am not Bullshiting.
cronk says
Simply a variant of the Emperor’s new clothes. In the original story the kid who pointed out the Emperor was buck naked was put to death and the fawning sycophants who lied their rear ends off were rewarded.
Those dare speak the truth are put in the same position as the child who pointed out the truth.
That said, the fact that average joes on this site and others can predict what has and will happen is because we don’t have a vested ideological position or a government job that depends on maintaining what amounts to maintaining a blatant lie.
Take someone like Biden. If he went off the reservation punishment would be swift and his presidential aspirations crushed. Look at Michelle Bachman who dared to question Hillary Clinton’s concubine Huma Abedin, McCain and the senior GOP leadership came down on her like a ton of bricks and destroyed her career.
The same way the GOP can’t speak about Grover Norquist’s marriage to a Muslima or his support of Islam.
The same applies to people in academia or Hollywood, go against the spirit of the time and you get crushed.
The sad fact is as one Conservative pundit has pointed out, the Left has won the war, their narrative which is largely anti-white and European is the ruling narrative of our time. Go against it and you will be crushed by their allies in the media, academia, business and politics.
Alissa says
This is why it’s so important that our elected officials are people of intellect and integrity. These days the electorate is more interested in the cool factor. It’s terrifying how much power these morally bankrupt narcissists are ie B Clinton, H Clinton, Obama, Cameron, etc. etc. all the way back to JFK.
gravenimage says
cronk wrote:
Simply a variant of the Emperor’s new clothes. In the original story the kid who pointed out the Emperor was buck naked was put to death and the fawning sycophants who lied their rear ends off were rewarded.
Those dare speak the truth are put in the same position as the child who pointed out the truth.
……………………………….
Actually, in “The Emperor’s New Clothes” by Hans Christian Anderson, what you describe does not occur at all. Here’s how the story ends:
“But he hasn’t got anything on,” a little child said.
“Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?” said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, “He hasn’t anything on. A child says he hasn’t anything on.”
“But he hasn’t got anything on!” the whole town cried out at last.
The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, “This procession has got to go on.” So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn’t there at all.”
…
In other words, when someone is brave enough to tell the truth, the truth is out.
Certainly, there are other traditional stories where truth-tellers pay dearly for their honesty—the fate of Cassandra in the Iliad is grimly proverbial.
But I actually find Andersen’s story very inspirational—when enough of us tell the truth about the “Religion of Peace”, Westerners will see that it is anything but.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one such truth-teller; so is Robert Spencer. In fact, we can *all* be part of this.
Bezelel says
Voeg, PC MC for the US is as you implied an infection. It is the product of an agenda. It is a self defeating proposition that has been gaining ground for years and has provided islam the opportunity to get as far as it has. islam is not the only malefactor that has made gains from the PC MC policies.Hirsi was able to use the “White” word in a way that a white person would be labeled racist for saying what she did. She has earned my respect and she has spoken out against islam where for Robert or Pamela to do so gets them banned from an entire country.Exposing the PC MC agenda as the priority deficient self destructive pack of lies that it is would return the reference point for right and wrong to a sane perspective.From there sound judgements can be made. The more people who agree that mass immigrations from islamic countries is and has been a grave mistake the less opposition there will be to a remedy. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Wellington says
But, Bezelel, voegelinian, as far as I have been able to determine, thinks that the eradication of pc/mc (a wonderful thing should it occur) would then allow for mass deportation of Muslims from the West (a very different issue from further Muslim immigration to the West). He doesn’t, quite ignorantly, take into account Western law, for instance the American Constitution and American statutory law supporting said constitution. which allows for haters of all kinds to hate (as Islam surely encourages its believers to do—–here there can be no disagreement among those who really know Islam) and yet still remain free in Western countries as long as they don’t violate specific laws (e.g., killing someone because they left their faith for another). Here is where voegelinian is profoundly naive and, thus, useless in any determined and practical solution to Muslims in the West.
Voegelinian simply refuses to see that seeing Islam as a giant negative, including by the vast majority of Western elites, is not enough. This is where he reveals his “capacity” for high theory unattended by reality. As I have written to him many times, even assuming he could have his day in court to present his mass deportation scheme, I know of no federal or state judge who would give him the time of day. He would be laughed out of court. Moreover, voegelinian, again in total high theory mode, even castigates people like Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders and Pamela Geller for being “softies,” let alone someone like me, because they don’t support mass deportation of Muslims from the West. Voegelinian doesn’t have a single ally in Congress, in the American judiciary, virtually anywhere, and still he pushes his mass deportation proposal insouciantly and castigates as naive those who disagree with him on this.
Can’t make this stuff up and voegelinian is living proof. He’s right and most eveyone else is wrong. He is in step and just about everyone else is out of step. As far as I am concerned, voegelinian, quite ironically, is harmful to the anti-jihad cause because his ideas of what to do about Muslims in the West are a total non-starter and not rooted in anything legal or practical.
Bezelel says
Wellington, I confess that I have eavesdropped on some of the previous discussions and although I can appreciate the homework Voeg has done even from a logistical point of view it can’t be done without commandeering a fleet dedicated to the sole purpose. I would go to the dock and wave bye bye, but I am not authorized or empowered nor is anyone else and we can’t even get the gov. to agree on a friggin budget.
voegelinian says
Wellington wrote:
But, Bezelel, voegelinian, as far as I have been able to determine, thinks that the eradication of pc/mc (a wonderful thing should it occur) would then allow for mass deportation of Muslims from the West…”
First of all, I would never put it in terms of expecting an “eradication” of PC MC. For one thing, as I have argued many times on my blog (with concrete examples from history), there existed individuals with PC MC ideas long before the supposed start of all this mess (the “Cultural Revolution” of the famous (or, depending on your POV, the infamous) Sixties). I’ve found a few from the 19th century, as well as a couple from the 18th century – and even as far back as the 16th century, we see in the great philosopher and politician Montaigne signs and symptoms of PC MC (quite remarkably so, as I demonstrated at length in my essay on my blog on him). I haven’t had the time to embark upon a concerted study of this (and no one else out there seems to care about the issue, much less have thought much about it), so I can’t say there weren’t many more such individuals. My conclusion is that while PC MC existed in a smattering of individuals here and there in the past, it always reflected a small minority view. The difference with our era – the last half century or so – is that what was a small minority view has now become the dominant mainstream worldview. It is its mainstream dominance which needs to be dismantled or deconstructed, before we can adequately tackle the problem of Islam. But even after such a deconstruction, it will still doubtlessly remain as an idea held here and there – it just will no longer be so culturally de rigueur that people actually censor themselves, their own thoughts, in addition to “shaming” others around them, for the Thought Crimes that not only make us feel guilty, but also exert undue influence on policy and can even ruin careers (for those few brave, or foolish, souls who don’t quietly and dutifully abide by The Unspoken Rules).
Secondly, as for the rest of Wellington’s comment above, the many readers who might read it would come away with the mistaken impression that I have not hashed and rehashed all his objections dozens of times already and pointed out to him how he is either misunderstanding my views, mischaracterizing them, and/or is not connecting with various crucial points of my argument on its own terms, but rather insists on barrelling ahead with his platitudinous obtuseness.
A glimpse into the voluminous and exhausting detail of our arguments may be gleaned from this one post on my blog (and there are two additional ones as well, linked therein):
http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2014/07/re-match.html
Angemon says
Wellington posted:
“But, Bezelel, voegelinian, as far as I have been able to determine, thinks that the eradication of pc/mc (a wonderful thing should it occur) would then allow for mass deportation of Muslims from the West (a very different issue from further Muslim immigration to the West). He doesn’t, quite ignorantly, take into account Western law, for instance the American Constitution and American statutory law supporting said constitution. ”
Pretty much. And he usually runs away with his tail between his legs, playing the victim, when asked about the legality and/or feasibility of his “solution”.
Jen says
What about Denmark’s idea of providing a voluntary repatriation program with financial incentive to leave? Of course, going back to Turkey is a bit different to going back to Pakistan. I think this would depend on where the Muslims originate from, as to how successful it would be. It might help to reduce the numbers though.
http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2014/06/30/turks-in-denmark-encouraged-to-go-back-to-turkey
Jen says
And I actually think that attempting to rile as many people as possible toward Voeg’s idea is not actually a bad thing. The circumstances at the moment are not right for this to happen but the situation could change in an unpredictable way in future. When doing anything, you should shoot for the maximum so that if you fall short, it is still better than aiming lower down. It’s about sending a strong message; as opposed to worrying about the barriers you can see ahead. Those may work themselves out. It is about trying to break as many barriers as possible to show that this religion and everything associated with it will not be tolerated. Creating that kind of climate is more likely to lead to massive action which is actually what is needed here. Most people, including those running a country, will only do something when they are forced. It is much more comfortable to rest on your laurels and only do as much as you think you need to. *Always* aim high. It reminds me of people who are interested in starting businesses. They always look for the barriers and try to be ‘realistic’ all the time instead of just ignoring the dumbass statistics about 9/10 businesses failing. And they focus on that part. Instead of focusing on the part that is actually changeable like their attitude which most people don’t have right, and that’s why most people are in the 9 out of 10 category and not the top 1%. They don’t have enough ambition.
cs says
I believe, the important thing now, is to tell people about Islam, in the most proper way.
The truth will appear, at some point, and support.
but if you put forward this 1984/fascist ideas, it will scare people away.
It is my opinion.
Jen says
@CS
Educating people as well but also, I think, throwing that idea out there for people to think about. There will come a point where people will be too scared to think anything else. It’s just not affecting people badly enough on a personal level which is why people feel they have the luxury of time to talk about it and not do anything. It is not going to get much better with more Muslims being present in the West. Their behaviour will force peoples’ hand. People relying on only educating people they know personally will not result in many people educated. And this also includes the fact that many people won’t do any educating which is why certain people need to do more than their fair share. Most people in the west have a pretty small social and extended family network unless they are a person who networks extensively for whatever reason. The culture of the west leans toward individualism so many people don’t know who their neighbours are. The whole idea of being collectively angry is diminished quite a lot by the fact that the community aspect in the west is rather weak. People resort to using the internet to find their sense of community and discuss these issues but people they are talking to are scattered all over the world or in different towns or cities. People cannot see the faces of the people they are talking to; it’s impersonal. You cannot visibly see how angry people are, near you, and band together when you are typing to them on a computer screen and they are in some far off location. This makes it harder to build momentum which means people are less likely to do anything individually. It allows for a lack of personal accountability also. You can avoid the internet or websites but you can’t avoid the people you actually live around as easily. The fact that this effort is not on a community-by-community basis makes society weaker to resist this. Politicians for instance, know that winning people over involves visiting communities directly. They walk around neighbourhoods, shaking hands with people and taking pictures with children or attending ceremonies to cut ribbons. If they notice that some of the younger voters like using social media, then they post on Twitter as well. That is how they help to create blocks of people who vote in their favour. And that is how educators for Islam should also be thinking as well, in addition to using the internet. People who have always lived in the west, probably don’t realise this as much about their community because they’re accustomed to it. But in cultures which lean more toward collectivism, people inherently have a wider social network made of lot of extended family members as well as family friends who also have large extended family networks. Then they can tap into this; which results in addressing at least 50 to 100 people each. A society that leans toward individualism, I think, helps to put an even greater amount of power in the hands of people running the country. If a politician does something undesirable then there is not an army of people who can immediately stand against them because to do so, they need to overcome their lack of familiarity with people living around them first. Something has to be formally organised, as opposed to it already being preexisting. And people generally are more inclined to listen to and support people that they already know and trust, rather than strangers whom they have no existing relationship with. These relationships actually need to be created out of necessity now, in order to further this cause.
voegelinian says
Bezelel wrote:
“even from a logistical point of view it can’t be done without commandeering a fleet dedicated to the sole purpose. I would go to the dock and wave bye bye, but I am not authorized or empowered nor is anyone else and we can’t even get the gov. to agree on a friggin budget.”
Well, obviously this is true. It’s so obviously true, it, as the saying goes, “goes without saying”. So why even say it?
Jen is closer to getting what I’m getting at:
“When doing anything, you should shoot for the maximum so that if you fall short, it is still better than aiming lower down. It’s about sending a strong message; as opposed to worrying about the barriers you can see ahead. Those may work themselves out. It is about trying to break as many barriers as possible to show that this religion and everything associated with it will not be tolerated. Creating that kind of climate is more likely to lead to massive action which is actually what is needed here.”
Jen is right in that I am obviously not literally trying to press for us to deport Muslims tomorrow; nor am I pressing for it in such a way that I’m oblivious to the enormous resistance such a proposal would encounter on so many levels in Western societies; indeed, a good barometer for that has already been tested time and again, whenever I have broached the idea in the Counter-Jihad — and that is a very good barometer, for of all places, one would think that should be where the idea would be most receptive. And yet, for the most part, I have encountered resistance in one form or another (including in the passive acquiescence of those who do nothing in defense of my position when others go after my throat on the issue — indeed, in a couple of instances (veteran JW commenters Champ and gravenimage), such longstanding passivity and seeming neutrality turned out, in the end, once they finally coughed up their views on the matter, to be resistance to the idea as well (though, as usual, with no real cogent defense of their position nor any real responsiveness to the many points of my argument).
However, with all that said, I must say that I go farther than what Jen is implying; I am not merely trying to “shoot for the moon” in order to push the Counter-Jihad movement along to greater and more aggressive impetus — which would imply I don’t really believe in the goal of deportation per se but am only using it as an entelechic vector, so to speak, in order to galvanize a more general thrust toward a stronger anti-Islam position only in some vague way. What I am doing, and what I believe is useful, is to push the meme — because I think that’s how difficult long-range sociopolitical goals often get done. One should not be fixated on the easy solution or the quick fix for instant gratification; one should rather dig in for the long haul – like decades down the line. And not all useful aspects of a Movement involve actual concrete action in the here and now; often they involve ideas in the context of an ongoing conversation — if only because people need to be persuaded before any action can be taken.
And when I get to this point in the argument, when people aren’t balking and putting up specious road blocks to my position (my favorite is “Where are you going to deport them TO…?”), the very same people who think I am reacting too extremely suddenly turn around and hyperventilatingly say, “But we don’t HAVE decades! The sky is falling NOW…!!!”
As I have argued before, by way of analogy, the Abolition movement in the modern West was transacted over a long arc of time, over a century really. People – a small and scattered nucleus of individuals at first – began broaching the resolve to end slavery in the 18th century. As the decades went along, more and more people agitated and in that pre-Internet (and pre-TV and radio and even pre-typewriter let alone computer) era, did what social networking they could in their style of a “war of ideas” – pamphlets, books, posters, letter-writing, public square harangues, plays, attempts to influence politicians in various ways, and so forth (a tiny minority of extremists went too far; e.g., John Brown) – and eventually it paid off. The West became the first culture in history to abolish and criminalize slavery without being forced to by others. Decades before this finally happened (mid-19th century), if someone pushed the idea, no doubt they were told – as I am told regularly by various Counter-Jihad folks – that it’s far too “unrealistic” and “it’ll never happen” and “it goes against the law”, etc. Some in those early decades of the process may well have had calumniators like Phillip Jihadski, who viciously castigated and slandered me some months ago for presenting this very analogy – and, as usual, none of the stalwart Jihad Watchers lifted a finger to defend me or my position.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“I am told regularly by various Counter-Jihad folks – that it’s far too “unrealistic” and “it’ll never happen” and “it goes against the law””
And you never explain why it’s not “unrealistic”, why “it’ll happen” or why is not “against the law”. You simply cry foul and play the victim. Like you proceed to do:
“Some in those early decades of the process may well have had calumniators like Phillip Jihadski, who viciously castigated and slandered me some months ago for presenting this very analogy – and, as usual, none of the stalwart Jihad Watchers lifted a finger to defend me or my position.”
In which way did PJ “viciously castigated” or “slandered” you? Or are you talking about the times PJ set you straight on your creepy behaviour of bringing him up out of no where to misrepresent what happened and make him look like the bad guy, like you’re doing here? And why are JW regulars obliged to defend you or your position? Shouldn’t defend your position be your responsibility? Or is your position so precarious that it stands not based on facts and logical discussion but on the number of supporters it has? You do know that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, right?
Bezelel says
I’m glad to have some clarity on the deportation effort. In my opinion islam presents stark contrast highly recognizable targets for anyone to point out the need to put the brakes on our current policies at least. The PC MC is more difficult except to make them accountable for as much as possible. The US is infected with pseudo intellectualism to the degree that we have a POS named hussein in the WH for 2 terms while we are fighting islamic countries.Personally I would encourage any and all muslims who sympathize with IS to go join up. That would at least begin to centralize the problem.An empty oil tanker heading that direction could carry quite a few.
cs says
Hi guys, why there is no forum here?
Why Robert don’t put one?
Could be one that would allow to look only with permission.
There are several questions I would like to ask, some of them quite practical as in the case of internet debates that I am always involved in.
That is just an idea.
gravenimage says
Voegelinian wrote:
And yet, for the most part, I have encountered resistance in one form or another (including in the passive acquiescence of those who do nothing in defense of my position when others go after my throat on the issue — indeed, in a couple of instances (veteran JW commenters Champ and gravenimage), such longstanding passivity and seeming neutrality turned out, in the end, once they finally coughed up their views on the matter, to be resistance to the idea as well (though, as usual, with no real cogent defense of their position nor any real responsiveness to the many points of my argument).
…………………………….
Oh, good grief. Voegelinian, you condemn me for being “passive” for not sufficiently defending a position that, as you note, I do not actually entirely agree with.
And I haven’t been reluctant to “cough up” my views on the matter—I have been quite open about my position from the beginning. It took me a while to write an exhaustive piece on the matter directed to you, but only because I hadn’t previously felt that such was particularly needed.
I have defended your positions many times when I have agreed with them, and have noted that I generally respect your contributions here—which does not mean, of course, that I am necessarily going to agree with you on every particular—nor is there any reason that I should.
I have often called for others to be respectful toward you—although not always in the precise terms that you have demanded. It is worth noting that few other posters appear to need such constant defending.
But then, you have had no compunction about openly insulting my intelligence for differing on certain points with your positions.
I have to admit that at this point I find that the whole thing has gotten very old.
As I have noted many times before, I believe that you have a lot to offer here, and I frequently respect your analysis. But it is rarely enough for you to differ with other posters and to simply make your case—instead, you regularly insult others and hold that anyone who does not agree with you on every matter has actually—in your own words—*betrayed* you.
This stance is, shall we say, not always terribly productive, and has the effect of alienating many posters who might otherwise largely consider themselves your allies.
Champ says
I have to admit that at this point I find that the whole thing has gotten very old.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ditto!!! Brava, Graven! ..great comment, and I agree word for word.
voegelinian says
gravenimage wrote:
“But then, you have had no compunction about openly insulting my intelligence for differing on certain points with your positions.”
How have I done that?
voegelinian says
There are two distinct things, to be kept distinct:
1) people disagreeing with me about my ideas for the Counter-Jihad
2) people attacking, insulting, slandering me.
I don’t mind #1, if it’s done in a relatively civil manner. I obviously mind #2; but in addition, there is a third phenomenon:
3) someone of the JW community doing #2 repeatedly, and others in the JW community mostly whistling and looking elsewhere, pretending that it’s not happening — even after I call attention to it and ask them to help me, by appropriately chiding the malefactor.
gravenimage instead of doing that with Phillip Jihadski, chides me; when the following link demonstrates him doing far, far worse to her than I have ever done:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/06/uk-born-isis-jihadis-black-flag-of-jihad-will-fly-over-london/comment-page-1#comment-1078900
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“There are two distinct things, to be kept distinct:
1) people disagreeing with me about my ideas for the Counter-Jihad
2) people attacking, insulting, slandering me.
I don’t mind #1, if it’s done in a relatively civil manner.”
This is just not true. There’s a long list of users and instances where voeg reacted badly to criticism done in a civil manner. He either pretended it didn’t exist, pretended he answered to it or outright insulted the user. In fact, you don’t actually have to criticize him, you just need to ask him to explain his ideas – that is something I discovered first-hand. Question his idea and you’ll find yourself being attacked and slandered throughout JW articles, even if you’re not actually posting on a specific article with no apparent expiration date. For example:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/former-global-counter-terrorism-director-of-mi6-uk-should-encourage-ex-extremists-to-come-home-from-iraq-and-syria/comment-page-2#comment-1116328
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/former-global-counter-terrorism-director-of-mi6-uk-should-encourage-ex-extremists-to-come-home-from-iraq-and-syria/comment-page-2#comment-1116343
Do those sound like replies coming from someone who has no problem with criticism?
Another example:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/former-global-counter-terrorism-director-of-mi6-uk-should-encourage-ex-extremists-to-come-home-from-iraq-and-syria/comment-page-1#comment-1115870
Do you see how he keeps a list of people who he butted heads with in the past? And how he names them out of nowhere, only to misrepresent their positions? That’s not a single time occurrence BTW.
“ I obviously mind #2;”
Now this is a juicy tidbit – voeg claims to mind when people attack him, insult him or slander him. So one expect that he’s not one to go around attacking, insulting or slandering other users, right? Wrong. As I said above, disagree with his ideas, or even just ask him to go on further detail, and prepare to be insulted and slandered all around JW. But hypocrisy is not the least of his faults.
“but in addition, there is a third phenomenon:
3) someone of the JW community doing #2 repeatedly, and others in the JW community mostly whistling and looking elsewhere, pretending that it’s not happening — even after I call attention to it and ask them to help me, by appropriately chiding the malefactor.”
Huh? How many users in JW had to deal with people actually attacking them and insulting them? Not being attacked or insulted after provoking someone (which is what voeg tries to pass as unprovoked attacks on him), I mean actual attacks and insults for no apparent reason. My guess is the overwhelming majority of JW regulars found themselves in that position at least once. How many of them had the demeanor of a pouty child and cried because no one stood up for them? My guess is none. As a JW regular put it:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/french-police-foil-jihad-plot-targeting-eiffel-tower-louve-nuke-plant/comment-page-1#comment-1089904
“
”
“gravenimage instead of doing that with Phillip Jihadski, chides me”
This is just not true. I remember seeing GI speaking to PJ on voeg’s behalf. The thing is, she didn’t disagree with PJ’s motives for butting heads with voeg but on how he was going on about it. She felt that PJ’s style was aggressive and could be seen by jihadis and islamic apologists as dissension in the counter-jihad ranks. And what’s her reward? A permanent place in voeg’s “Hall of Infamy” and being slandered in this kind of pathetic attempt at emotional manipulation. GI (or anyone else for that matter) is not obliged to be on voeg’s side, or PJ’s side, or my side, or anyone’s side as a matter of principle. I had some disagreements with GI but that never stopped me from praising her when she wrote a praise-worthy post, nor did I ever expected her to take my side because I agreed with her in the past.
“when the following link demonstrates him doing far, far worse to her than I have ever done”
This makes no sense unless voeg knows what’s going on in GI’s mind and how she saw PJ’s remark on that post. I, for one, would argue that voeg’s petty attempts at public shaming and emotional manipulation (let’s not kid ourselves, that’s what his “i’m being attacked and GI is siding with the guy attacking me” amounts to) are far worse than a blunt or rude reply from PJ.
Also notice the context of voeg’s link. No, notice that very post: GI was talking to PJ in voeg’s behalf, defending voeg. But voeg just told us this:
“gravenimage instead of doing that with Phillip Jihadski, chides me”
Does that not amount to slander? So voeg complains about other users “slandering” him but is OK with lying about and slandering other users? Tsk tsk…
gravenimage says
Voegelinian wrote:
gravenimage wrote:
“But then, you have had no compunction about openly insulting my intelligence for differing on certain points with your positions.”
How have I done that?
………………………………….
After I wrote that exhaustive reply to you some months ago re deportation, Voegelinian, I was rather surprised that you had not commented since you had expressly solicited my opinions. When I asked you on a subsequent thread if you had had a chance to read my post, you said something along the lines of—I am paraphrasing here; I have not kept a record of the exchange—that my thinking was hopelessly muddled and my comments not worth responding to.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinions—I would never suggest otherwise. But it would have been difficult for me to interpret this as anything other than your insulting my intelligence.
More:
There are two distinct things, to be kept distinct:
1) people disagreeing with me about my ideas for the Counter-Jihad
2) people attacking, insulting, slandering me.
I don’t mind #1, if it’s done in a relatively civil manner. I obviously mind #2; but in addition, there is a third phenomenon:
3) someone of the JW community doing #2 repeatedly, and others in the JW community mostly whistling and looking elsewhere, pretending that it’s not happening — even after I call attention to it and ask them to help me, by appropriately chiding the malefactor.
gravenimage instead of doing that with Phillip Jihadski, chides me; when the following link demonstrates him doing far, far worse to her than I have ever done:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/06/uk-born-isis-jihadis-black-flag-of-jihad-will-fly-over-london/comment-page-1#comment-1078900
………………………………….
Actually, it is clear to anyone reading through the comments on that thread that I *had* chided Philip Jihadski for his lack of civility towards you.
And I only replied to you on this thread at all because you specifically singled me out for criticism along with Champ. This would, seemingly, be quite out of the blue, except for the fact that you have been doing this for quite some time. The irony is that I have always taken your views seriously—even when I have disagreed with them to some degree—and have always been entirely respectful in my approach.
The posts cited by Angemon, above, show that this is nothing new.
I will continue to respond to your comments in a civil and respectful manner—as I have always done, and despite your considering this to be somehow less than satisfactory.
Marblenecltr says
VP Biden’s blurt-control switch has been turned off for some time. Or else he is even less intelligent than he thinks we are. In either case, that is another albatross to be hung around the neck of the Democratic Party.
Holy Prophet APF says
Biden believed he knew more about Islam than she did. Why?
Uh, because he graduated in the top 25% of his class at Harvard and is super smart? Check that, it turned out Joe lied about that, but heck anywhere in a graduating class at Harvard is super duper, as in certified near genius at least territory. So he knows.
Here is the key: it’s not what you know, it’s how you’re regarded. If you’re a credentialed member of the elite, you don’t need to read the Holy Ko-Ran or the history of Islam. You instead triangulate the rough bearings of bodies of thought on a subject, in this case Islam. It’ clear that Ali is a bitter rape victim, and badly needs professional help.
Wellington says
I’m not certain about which lie by Biden you’re referring to, but Biden never attended Harvard Law School. He is a graduate of the Syracuse University School of Law. If Biden ever said he was a Harvard Law graduate, I haven’t come across this. Understand, I think Biden is deficient many times over, but I know of no claim by him that he “graduated in the top 25% of his class at Harvard.”
Clarification please, because opposing what Islam intends for us all allows for almost zero mistakes by those who oppose what Islam intends for us all.
Kepha says
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an extremely stupid woman. She has lived in the Netherlands and the USA long enough to know by know that there is no more intelligent, knowledgeable, and far-seeing creature on the planet than a liberal politician or pundit. Why, they can know everything to know about a subject without having read more than a few teleprompter sound bites on the subject! How dare she insinuate that the Genius of the Reed Marshes (like Caucescu was Genius of the Carpathians) be less than completely knowledgable about Islam!
[sarc off]
Actually, I roll my eyes in despair when one of the administration of the supposedly gosh-darnedest most intelligent POTUS ever tries to tell someone from an Islamic culture what Islam really is. I’d way feel that had Biden been lecturing an prof from al_Azhar rather than Ayaan Hirsi Ali, too.
Biden, to you a heartfelt Bronx Cheer: PFFFFFFTHHHHHHHHHHHHLPPPPPPPFFFT!
kilfincelt says
Well, let’s see! Gruber said on more than one occasion that, basically, voters were stupid for supporting those who wanted Obamacare. Since those supporters were Democrats then by extension, Democrats are stupid. Biden is a Democrat; therefore, he is stupid. Would one really expect that someone as stupid as Biden would recognize expertise when he saw it? This just proves the point that we have some really dumb people at the highest level of government and need to be more careful in choosing our representives.
Kilfincelt says
Sorry, I misspelled representatives.
CMH says
Here is the 2 minute Canadian version of this story…. extremely serious and frightening when you see what government committee this is. All Canadians should be afraid.
Kepha says
@ CMH:
Down here south of Line Forty-nine, we also have much cause for concern. Back when I was stationed in Bangkok, some counterparts from your Embassy asked if anyone in our State Department was working on what to do should Canada collapse. I replied there probably was, and at the end of his working day, he probably looked in the mirror, tore his hair and screamed in terror. Why? If anything happens to Canada, we’re next in line for whatever disaster it is.
But I am impressed by Tarek Fatah. He seems concerned about what is happening in Muslim communities worldwide and in Canada, and has the guts to tell the platitudinous Hon. Mr. Mitchell that the Senator has no right to impute an anti-Muslim bigotry to him. Possibly, Mr. Fatah has put his life on the line for speaking out and warning of what is happening. Certainly a committee on national defense and security should take such warnings with the utmost seriousness.
Further, speaking as a missions-minded Christian, I believe that Christians should be talking with such people–especially since we have the real religion of peace, which when it fails to be such is rightly accused of hypocrisy rather than simply being what it is. I suspect that a lot of Muslims are Muslim because that’s how they learned there’s a God and that life isn’t “all about me”. Perhaps such Muslims, who are concerned about matters such as fairness to “the other” and peace, ought to be made aware that there is a religion out there that is built around both the vindication of divine justice and the reconciliation of both man with God and man with man–and this is what was done through Jesus the Messiah; especially the atonement he made for us on the cross.
KeepItSimple says
Are Islamic organisations, corporations, charities and tax file numbers legitimate in America?
Has anybody asked whether an Islamic body that is connected to the Koran which espouses murder, imprisonment, rape, deception, abductions, etc. of good faith? Of course not. So how can they register? Where in the applications have they falsified their credentials?
Somebody needs to challenge an application for sharia or a mosque on the basis that the organisation behind such an application has falsified their application in that it should be able to distance itself substantially from the Koran’s statements . . . and it has not done so.
Brother Mark:) says
She should have stayed and cleaned his clock….not that it would have done any good.
Brother Mark:)
http://www.talktruthful.com
Kasey says
Joe Biden must be more naive than he appears, or he is trying to foster the Muslim vote for the next election. Same thing happen in other nation by some where it counts. A real sell out for any nation.
hammar says
People whether just good average folks who don’t want to hear the truth about islam and it’s jihad and sharia laws or Liberals who love them, must understand that when they reproduce and immigrate to this country in droves you will not be able even to complain verbally out loud or maybe even in the press like we are now doing. islamic’s will show up at your door like a pack of wolves. That’s how they are very ignorant and violent and they will show up. They are doing it right now in Canada and Europe. USA is next thanks to our liberal press and government. Look how they complaining about treating terrorists who have killed Americans. Oh you are committing torture. What fools liberals are.
Betty says
talking about deporting the muslims. the best way for them to self deport is to cut all welfare and I mean all. just like the Mexicans they only reason the come is because very few want a better life it is because they can play havoc and collect welfare. and sit by and laugh at AMERICANS FOR BEING SO DUMB. and as long as the little o is in the wh. they can and do get by with murder.
Jim says
Our current vice president is an idiot.
RRO says
Everything I have learned thus far; everything that, in any possible way, has anything whatsoever to do with Islam, Muslims, the New World Order, the Bilderberg group, the international banking cartel, the lobbyists who are getting our laws changed to suit their obviously malicious agendas, and those who have the greatest influence on and control over the thinking of the masses compels me to cry out to the only one whom I deem to be capable of rescuing us from ourselves.
In accordance with the way I see it, so long as the insanity that seems to be so clearly embedded in all Islamic thinking (even in its obviously whitewashed moderate versions), in all collectivist thinking, or in all of this era’s politically correct thinking is allowed to remain unchecked, for much longer, there can never ever ever be any peace (or any genuine and assuring hope, as opposed to wishful thinking, for peace) apart from that which can be brought on by a colossal miracle. That alone is what is going to save the world from the evil forces that are quite obviously destroying it on far too many fronts for the word to handle without superhuman help.
PatnCats says
The best way we can help Ayaah Hiris Ali is to financially support her AHA Foundation for the protection of women and girls. I have financially donated several times. Each time, I get a donation letter from AHA for my tax deductible contribution.
So think about doing this. WOMEN must support women and our MEN MUST LOVE AND SUPPORT your women in your care! Think about your 9 year old daughter or granddaughter being ””’married”” to a 54 year old nasty man, such as Osama bin Laden, or an image of Mohammed.
ALSO – I read Ayaan’s 3 books on being a muslim woman, after I read the koran and I was double horrified. Her books are, “The Caged Virgin,” Infidel” and “Nomad”.
THESE mohammadans who FORCE women to hide under black gag bags, force girls and hold them down for the FGM butchery and then hold a woman’s vagina hostage for ‘honor killings’ is appalling to me as a free woman living in the United States.
What a stupid way to live – iSLAM and all those IMMANS holding women’s vaginas hostage for the men’s own honor. Leave a women to her own honor. It’s hers after all to choose what she should do with it herself and who she should share it with should be her own decision.
Not a father, brother, uncle, or any man. How totally ridiculous. What a STUPID BARBARIC BACKWARDS ISLAMIC 7th Century CONCEPT – toss off MOHAM FOR THE BARBARIAN HE WAS – and his fake-made-up-allah. Leave a woman’s body to a woman.
THE SISTERS need to toss off those black gag bags in MASS AND NEVER PUT THEM BACK ON. These women NEED PROCLAIM A WORLD WIDE “Toss off the BLack Gag Bag.” Muslims worldwide CANNOT MURDER ALL their own MUSLIM WOMEN WHO TOSS OFF THE BLACK GAG BAG! Mohammadans use FEAR and THREATS to humble and cow women and girls – well and most everyone they can – Mohamm himself proclaimed this terror as being effective. If they have no fear of death, then there is no more power over them. Use Mohamm as an example – he was poisoned by a Jewish woman whom Mohamm and his barbaric followers killed her husband and her father and uncle at Khaybar. So she offered to prepare the prophet a meal – a meal of poisoned sheep. It took two years for Mohamm to die from the poisoning, suffering badly during this time and his men having to drag him around as his feet dragged behind him (much like Weekend at Bernie’s) This is in islamic writings. Buy F.W. Burleigh’s new bio on Mohamm: “It’s All About Mohammed; the World’s Most NOTORIOUS PROPHET.” on amazon.
Courage, and the threat of death? We in the USA have fought and died since the founding of our country to bring freedom to other countries. Remember NAZI GERMANY and IMPERIAL JAPAN? SOUTH KOREA PROSPERS – North Korea is a pit in hell.
Look at the success of these great FREE countries today and see what America, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the French, the Poles – and yes, the Russians, died to eliminate NAZI Germany. (too bad about Communism and Stalinism) But back to the subject of islam – even Putin is taking a double look at islam.
I am a widow, and I am appalled about the way women in islamic countries are treated – that THIS TREATMENT OF WOMEN AND GIRLS ALSO TRANSPIRES HERE IN THE USA AMONGST MUSLIMS is appalling.
What to do?
WRITE on your politicos websites about women’s rights, about the RISE OF IMMIGRATIONS of MUSLIMS who are NOT ASSIMILATING into US SOCIETY or WESTERN SOCIETY – as per DEARBORN MICHIGAN.
Write on CNN Websites about our STANCE AGAINST THE BARBARISM OF ISLAM AND IF YOU READ THE KORAN – STATE THAT YOU’VE READ THE KORAN.
Joe Biden just showed himself as yet another “WHAT AN IDIOT” buying the MYTH OF PEACEFUL ISLAM!
If anyone on God’s Green Earth KNOWS the evils of Islam – THIS IS AYAAN HIRSI ALI. I Have total admiration for her to escape from her fate and making herself marketable and learning Dutch and English.
I WELCOME HER TO THE USA and PRAY FOR HER and HER GREAT CAUSE! Go to AHA FOUNDATION and support it.
SHE IS A GREAT WOMAN AND GIRLS ADVOCATE! WE WOMEN NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE HER WORK AND RECOGNIZE ISLAM FOR THE BARBARITY AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS.
Poor poor ignorant Joe Biden, probably was all smug-ass in ‘I TOLD her off!”
I’m embarrassed by our administration. So totally embarrassed. I usually hold our Commander in Chief in high esteem, as I’m a veteran of the Air Force, but they seem to be holding onto islam in DETRIMENT TO THE CITIZENS OF THE USA. Muslims are ONLY .6% of ONE PERCENT per the US Census of 2010 – and Our Leader of the Free World says, “It’s my job as President to protect islam” and “There is no room for criticism of the prophet”
WHAT? This is CRAZY.
When is the next election? Can’t get here soon enough.
The second some politico says he or she supports islam – I’ll vote the opposite party. And do go to their political websites – when we write here on Robert Spencer’s site – GOT TO YOUR POLITICOs website and give your opinions to them also! The more vocal us Greazy Islamophobes, bigots and racists are towards islam, the better AND USE THE language that the KORAN IS CHRISTIAN-O-PHOBE, JUDEO-O-PHOBE and NON-BELEIVER-o-PHOBE, Gay Folks-O-Phobe, Apostate-o-phobe, Hypocrite-o-phobe….toss it right back at the likes of CAIR, CNN, MSNBC and the WHITE HOUSE!
Jen says
Jen has placed you under a microscope and taken your inventory–up one side–and then down the other. Wow talk about hypercritical! ..and I thought she left us loooong ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get lost “Jen”.
——————————————————–
Champ has been on here talking and talking about it. As she has said- “long” enough! Perhaps one of those people as another poster suggested to her earlier who wears the “I voted” sticker and that is the sum of her action, other than talking and talking of course. She doesn’t like it when I highlight others (and by default her own) lofty idealism. “Yeah, I hate Islam” says Champ. She can see herself in my comments toward Jay Boo, who finally needed somebody on the forum who isn’t a lofty idealist and can point out how ridiculous it is to hold these positions in the face of grave danger. Hopefully Jay Boo being speechless will be a turning point for him. As for Champ, that might be unlikely. She sounds paper thin. I prefer to be in the company of people who actually WANT to do something about this problem. Not be on a forum with the likes of Champ et al. who have no intention of taking action, as exhibited by their far-to-long time spent on an internet forum, when the situation is passing by and appearing to get worse. Sticks and stones Champ, sticks and stones.
Jen says
Champ says about me: Sadly, you don’t know Jen very well …she is notorious for criticizing posters *more* than islam & company
——————————————————————————–
What you don’t know about Champ is that she “sadly” DOESN’T point out when people aren’t making any sense. She sides with the other people on the forum who are much like herself (who she is referring to me criticising i.e. other pie in the sky theorists). When I point out the lack of action of people on here and elsewhere, she takes a offense because she knows it’s true in her case also. And saying I’m “notorious” for criticising posters on here MORE than Islam and company shows her inability to realise a basic fact. There are few Muslim posters on here, and in fact I go further than criticise “Islam and company” – I go as far as criticising Muslims. The ones actually perpetrating this violence. Not the books alone, but the humans behind it. Or those who apparently are human, despite their ghastly actions.
Champ, learn to take some rough and tumble mate. You sound dishonest in what you just said there.
My uncle was in the military and killed by Muslims when they ambushed them. My other uncle and aunt were kidnapped and subject to a horrifying ordeal. My grandmother was threatened by Muslims many, many times. Our family property has been effectively stolen from Muslims, though not legally, they effectively own it since using force would be the only way to remove them. Do actually think, that I have time to worry about pie in the sky like you? We had a war with these people already and there’s probably another one to come sometime in the future. Grow a pair! Actually do something, instead of spending your time trying to make “allies” on here by siding with suicidal stupidity. Even though, I’ve actually defended Champ multiple times by criticising another Muslim poster on here who said bad things about her!
Jen says
And because I try to stick by my own principles, I do attempt to stand for something in life unlike the many that float around like sheep. Christianity or any religion, shouldn’t be used as a crutch on its own without thinking independently of it. We were given a brain to use, after all. So I do point out where it disagrees with my line of thinking- not try to make friends all the time! This situation with Islam is serious, and not one to casually chat about over coffee. Where is the point in discussing anything if you agree with people who are being ridiculous; for the sake of making “allies” on an internet forum where people live far away. There is a reason why, based on their life outlook, as to why they say the things they do. And sometimes people need to be forced to look at themselves squarely to show why they don’t make sense. It is actually for their own betterment. Especially in regards to the danger of Islam. I analyse where my beliefs came from, purely out of habit. It’s part of self-discipline. It is probably Champ who needs to learn to be hypercritical- with a mirror in her hand as she said earlier I believe, instead of criticising me AND having the audacity to suggest that I don’t criticise “Islam and company” enough, given what my family have been through. You let the other people who don’t take action get off the hook (including yourself) by refusing to take personal responsibility. That’s not really a position worth respecting, in my view. Your point has no legitimacy except to those who are in your guilty camp of talking about this problem for so long, and doing little.
Champ says
As I just stated to Drakker, “jen” is notorious for friendly fire; she has done this in the past, and HERE she goes again, and that is why I told her to get lost …”jen” is not a team player.
It’s a shame that “jen” doesn’t stick to attacking the real enemy: islam.
Jen says
No Drakken responded to you already Champ. You were just offended when I told off a religious bigot for creating division by excluding other Christians like Catholics (and which you yourself have done by linking to websites which list Catholics as a separate religion from Christianity). Or those implying other Christians outside the “bible believing Christians” are “fakes” whereas I said that they should appeal to their humanity and appeal to their, perhaps dormant, understanding of Jesus and his role as a role model for those who no longer actively practice. Other Christians excluded Hindus or Jews in their comments; and even atheists. All of which I’ve attempted to include; despite my own religious beliefs. Champ, on the other hand, you just try to get other people “on side” or no real purpose. Maybe it’s comforting but it’s essentially pointless. How old are you?! I have to ask, because I know, given that you are grandmother, that you are very likely, at least 20 years my senior. Isn’t it somewhat embarrassing to be doing this at your age still?
Jen says
And in fact, I explained already, despite Champ’s comment (where she repeated what I already addressed) is that I went beyond Islam and into the people behind these crimes i.e. Muslims. And that I don’t make distinctions which aren’t useless like “moderate” or not moderate, because I know from personal experience that it is essentially useless to create so many different categories of Muslim; whatever the categories may be. It has no bearing the safety of non-Muslims who cannot determine who is who, and who thinks what, unless they know the Muslim personally. Even then, you have to be wary since the belief they claim adherence to is contrary to much of the non-Muslim world. How much more simply can I this. Have you got anything else to say Champ, that you haven’t already said? Without misconstruing?
voegelinian says
“I don’t make distinctions which aren’t useless like “moderate” or not moderate, because I know from personal experience that it is essentially useless to create so many different categories of Muslim; whatever the categories may be. It has no bearing the safety of non-Muslims who cannot determine who is who, and who thinks what, unless they know the Muslim personally. Even then, you have to be wary since the belief they claim adherence to is contrary to much of the non-Muslim world. ”
Once upon a time, Champ seem to believe this and to champion this pov. I’m not sure what happened.
Champ says
voeg, I haven’t changed one whit–you have, so perhaps a mirror is in order here.
Jen says
“Jen is not a team player”
What Champ is trying to say is that I have own thoughts, which stick to. And I don’t bend to being a sheep. And I am so much a team player that I am organising a group of people to educate others about Islam- in real life that is; not purely on internet forums. And I am going to make the resources I compile, available on my blog. And additionally, I am going to prepare country-specific information for different countries (because you know, I’m not selfish and I care for the suffering of people everywhere, not just in the country I live in ). And people will be able to go there and print this information out and distribute it in their countries. And I won’t exclude non-English speaking countries as I can write Spanish to a reasonable level, and I see Islam as a threat for Latin Americans too. Even Uruguay is accepting refugees, despite their small population.
I’ve been on this website a relatively short time compared to others such as Champ, but even in that short time, I learnt a lesson from being on this website. Which is that I refuse to stand by and watch these events happen from a distance and merely talk about them and pretend I am a “team player” by siding with people and trying to get one person to agree with me for the sake of “taking sides” as Champ is trying to do with Drakken. I am a young person who actually cares about people and their well-being and I’m willing to put myself on the line to help people; which includes dealing with Muslims and their shit which is inevitable if you speak out against Islam. I do have some guts; unlike the shameful older generations above me who were the people who allowed the west to slip. It wasn’t my doing, I wasn’t born or was a mere child when this began to unravel. And it will be people in my age bracket who will join the army and fight with their lives on the line to defend the ideals which the older generations failed to protect properly.
So anyway, thank you to Drakken and your comments. They were refreshing to hear also. And I actually agree with you wholeheartedly but I am not actually confident that there are many who think like you and I out there. Which is why I try to hope that education will bring more people to think how you do. It is not only “radical” mosques but all mosques that need to be watched. Each and every mosque or prayer centre which is erected for Muslims creates a source of potential violence in future because, if found to be preaching “radical” material- what is the alternative? To close it down? And we know that every time you resist Muslims, there is a possibility that they will react badly which could result in people being killed. That is why the west doesn’t really have time to waste. Because there is probably a mosque or some kind of Islamic centre being erected somewhere which will pose as a future challenge. It is only when push comes to shove that, people will realise the gravity of the situation and stop talking and start acting. I already have an idea of what it is like; as I mentioned. And it’s not a laughing matter, no matter how much I attempt to find the darker humour of Islam in all its ridiculousness.
RRO says
Better yet, why not lobby legislators to draft laws that make it virtually impossible for anyone to remain any kind of a Muslim (law-abiding or otherwise) without the risk of being confined to an institution that was designed to help people who are in dire need of round-the-clock psychiatric evaluation and being forced to undergo a De-indoctrination program?
I have read the Qur’an from cover to cover and it’s gotta be the most stupid piece of literature I have ever come across. But there are over one billion people who have sworn their total allegiance to the authority behind that extremely stupid piece of literary junk.
The first story that I wrote when I was small, and in grade three, was about a little old man who flew across the lake on his nose. Another child about my age had managed to convince me that he had an Uncle Dobbin who beat up 5 police men, built a rocket in his backyard, went to mars, found some dinosaur bones, made some liquid out of them, drank that liquid and became invisible. When I read the Qur’an I couldn’t help but realize how much it resembled those childish stories and the childish logic behind them.
I am telling you, there has got to be something seriously wrong with everyone who bows to the the ultimate authority that is behind every word in the Qur’an as only Muslims do. They all need to have their heads examined. The peaceful ones need to be De-indoctrinated and the violent ones need to be judged and dealt with by the same standard that they use to judge and deal with all who do not agree with them and their obviously tortured logic.
Islam, via the Qur’an, the Ahadith, its official biography of Muhammad, and Sharia is a contagious mental disease.
It creates a world of lunatics, ranting and raving emotionally disturbed children, monsters and Takiyya*-inspired devils. *See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya for an idea of what I mean by Takiyya.
Takiyya makes it practically impossible for any non-Muslim to distinguish between Muslims who intend to do serious harm to those of us who have done them no harm and Muslims who do not intend to harm us without a legitimate lawful reason. So, it is practically impossible for us non-Muslims to trust any Muslim to treat us in any truly lawful way.
If unchecked and not dealt with intelligently and quickly, the whole world will become contaminated with this lunacy and eventually destroyed by the mental disease that is contaminating a frightening and ever increasing number of us.
RRO says
There are enough credible groups out there which are educating (i.e., telling the whole truth to) non-Muslims about Islam and the ultimate authority to which the entire worldwide Muslim community swears its allegiance, but they are not managing to change the dangerous direction in which Muslims, multiculturalists (actually “cultural relativists”), collectivists, and appeasers or empathizers of Islamic demands have taken us thus far. I think it is better to join up with any of them than it is to start a new group. I can’t see how starting up another group is going to make the difference that we all need to see.
Robert Spencer, Bare Naked Islam, Bridgette Gabriel, and http://www.faithfreedome.org, have established the best some of what I consider to be the most credible groups I am aware of. Why not link up the contacts you trust with their websites and blogs?
One more thing! Educating people about the real Islam might have an immediate effect if you had the clout of the establishment’s schools and news outlets. But until you do, I am afraid you won’t get to educate enough people in time to quickly reverse the dangerous direction in which the leftards and other Islam appeasers and empathizers have taken us thus far, unless your education is directed to the people who can make all the difference in the world or until you start with something that will work like a politician (e.g., Geert Wilders) a lobby group, a multilevel (MLM) marketing scheme, or a chain-letter.
RRO says
Note: “Bare Naked Islam” might not be considered credible by many, but it helps many non-Muslims to find ways to correctly identify or name everything that the entire worldwide Muslim community glorifies.
Jen says
There are no groups in my country talking about Islam and educating people. And many groups overseas do not have a practical message in what they are promoting. What use will that do, when people realise they have a problem on their hands and then choose not to act? I want to make clear and simple handouts that people can distribute themselves. The way that material is presented, makes a difference.
Education needs to happen from a ground level where as many people as possible are taking part since you can’t get to everyone yourself. I don’t actually agree with taking a softer stance to educating people but because some of these groups have to remain ‘credible’ so that they don’t get criticised or ‘discredited’ by Muslims or media, I feel like it hinders talking about Islam in very plain terms. They still do that “we are not against Muslims” crap, even though these Muslims are giving status to the religion by professing to belong to it. How do you dismantle Islam when you refuse to look at the very people who give it legitimacy? It is more than the books. It is the people behind the books. If I wrote a book like the Qur’an from scratch today and called it a book from God, I would be laughed off the stage. Yet this strange brainwashing material is given so much respect. Thanks in large part to all the non-violent Muslims who keep bleating about not being able to ‘demonize Muslims.’
I don’t care if people criticise me to be honest. And I’m not going to shut up. So all this “racism”, “Islamphobia” and “unfair to demonize all Muslims” is crap which has no impact on the security situation. I’m telling the truth so why should I care what people who can’t even work this out, think? They need to wake up. It is the presence of Muslims that is the problem. Because you can’t identify who they are, and what they believe. People forget that many people cling to their religious beliefs for sentimental or cultural reasons and will not necessarily own up to the flaws in their religion, just because it has been exposed. It is only when Muslims are caught doing something that you find out that they were ‘in on it’ as well. So the non-Muslim population is passive until something terrible actually happens. The attacks which do not involve in-depth planning like Muslims opening fire on bystanders are difficult to prevent. The large scale attacks where Muslims are conversing with one another, backwards and forwards, are the ones which are more likely to be foiled because they can monitor their communications.
Muslims have started promoting Islam more with their tables/events and promoting it on social media- even though they don’t quote enough from the Qur’an itself. I believe that the Muslim community has and will, step up their efforts to improve the reputation of Islam because the publicity surrounding ISIS has helped to drag its reputation through the mud. People should NOT allow this opportunity of using ISIS to expose Islam go to waste. People are searching for ISIS information at the moment which is the closest thing to Islam you can get.
We have one or two main outlets for media. And both of them just virtually copy each other. The counter-jihad material I have found is not compiled according to country-specific circumstances either. There are certain cultural barriers which cause people not to pinpoint Islam and the Muslims themselves as something dangerous in and of itself. And the counter-jihad movement is too scared to say Muslims collectively are the problem. They allow Muslims to drag it down to the individual level by saying “not all Muslims are like this!” and then the counter-jihad movement uses language which reaffirms this in their counter-jihad material. Do they really believe what they’re saying or are they just ‘being careful’? They are shielding the public from part of the problem i.e. the most PROBLEMATIC part of the problem. Don’t they feel guilty? Or are they just dreaming as well?
I’m not in the UK, though I have family there which is why I’m concerned. I also suspect that Muslims will want to target those old monuments which have cultural and historical significance to the UK. There are also old churches there which would be a real shame to lose. My one relative who is in politics is so crazily blind and is going against the right-wing parties and doing the usual leftard “racism” card. I have to read their personal Facebook page and see these excruciating comments, while the situation there is not improving. If the west comes through this, they need to adopt new cultural values which are closer to being practical, instead of this wishy washy stuff. Even at university, I noticed this wishy washy thinking being taught and I can see why even the most educated people, including my relative in politics, think as they do. Their thinking is the product of over idealism and this idea that we have ‘come so far’ as human beings. As if the idea that society could regress is such a remote possibility. We here, are no different to anyone else. It is just that we still have certain systems that are intact and considered reliable. If those fall away as they are beginning to, we will resort to behaving like animals. And the more cracks there are, the more likely it is that certain people will exploit these cracks and this lends itself to corruption. These places which have warring factions within their borders cannot really have a proper democracy so the west’s idea about plopping democracy down like it comes packaged in a box is just silly. There is a reason why there are ‘human rights abuses’ and it’s because the warring faction is difficult to control otherwise. I have heard there have been extra-judicial killings of jihadists where my relatives live and the west likes to remind them of this, without understanding that the judicial system has cracks in it and judges can be bribed quite easily so they probably thought it was better to get rid of them on the spot, instead of risking the possibility of them getting off and doing it again. The west has become the Global Police on these matters and calls other people in other countries ‘thugs.’ Let’s see how it works out for them when they’re desperate! Do they honestly believe they are more ‘civilized’? It’s baffling. Muslim behaviour will force their hand.
And thanks Drakken. I will! And I will be the predator, not the prey 😉 I’m on my way to training.
gravenimage says
Jen, I have to admit I am at a loss as to why you consider Champ to be your enemy. From what I have read of both your posts, it would appear that your views as Anti-Jihadists are quite similar. Have I missed something?
Champ says
Graven, of course Jen can offer her own answer to your query; but in the meantime, if you go to the “Older Comments” section on this same thread, then you can read what I wrote to her, and why. Essentially she attacked Jay Boo, and I defended him, and then told her to get lost–in response she wrote looong responses, which I haven’t bothered reading. Way too long, and no doubt excessively critical of me, as she was of Jay Boo. So I wasn’t the *least* bit interested in reading her drivel considering how poorly she Jay. I don’t befriend or respond to those that engage in friendly fire, like Jen has done to me and Jay.
Jen says
Graven, what I am at a loss about are the number of people who know about this problem and who refuse to attempt to do anything about it. It was Champ who addressed me first and told me to “get lost” so I have every right defend myself as I see fit. Nowhere did I say she was an “enemy.” But if you would like me to explain this a little further, then I will say that people who are complacent are as much a part of this problem as the problem itself.
Being a “team player” is a value that is pushed often by businesses in their job ads in an attempt to attract people who will conform to authority. Employees who conform to authority are the kind of people who make life much easier for management because they want to set the agenda. But in this context, referring to someone who wants to actually focus on finding solutions to problems as “not a team player” is misapplying this idea that “not team playing” is somehow a negative. It is not a positive to “team play” or agree with people who are not oriented toward a solution but who are much more focused on picking out minor details in this problem regarding Islam when it makes no difference to the overall situation and the security risk that Muslims pose. It is not “pious Muslims” or “Islam and Company” but purely the Muslim community and their presence.
Is there something that you can do which will be productive Graven, to helping this situation? You must live around a community of people or churches or other places of worship in which you can directly go there yourself and let them know about Islam and ask them to pass this message onto their attendees. It is about time that people living in the west stopped discussing this problem and actually doing something to help. Talking achieves nothing. Most people who read these blogs are educated about Islam within a couple of visits. But most people, with this education, will elect to do little to nothing.
And Champ, it is not ‘excessively’ critical to defend myself when you make comments that even you yourself probably know are ridiculous. You said of another poster on here who described what they were doing to get involved in their community (on another issue I believe) by interjecting and asking them why they were “writing Jihad Watch and not Dr. Phil.” The person appeared to be frustrated that their efforts weren’t making enough of a difference and that’s perfectly understandable, but your catty comment said more about you than it did about them. People who attempt to help within their community deserve to be commended as there are very few people who actually make the effort. It is a certain kind of person that chooses to do this. When I was a young child, I used to believe that those who were adults were ‘grown up’ or wise. When I became an adult myself a few short years ago, I realised that this is far from the case and that many adults are in fact ‘grown up’ children and very many of them do not learn very much, despite their relatively long time on earth. Electing to put my name in quotation marks despite my stance and willingness to do something about this problem is a bit juvenile for someone of your age (and my name is Jen anyway also).
Champ says
Jen, I apologize for telling you to “get lost”. Please forgive me.
Take care.
gravenimage says
Jen wrote:
Graven, what I am at a loss about are the number of people who know about this problem and who refuse to attempt to do anything about it. It was Champ who addressed me first and told me to “get lost” so I have every right defend myself as I see fit. Nowhere did I say she was an “enemy.” But if you would like me to explain this a little further, then I will say that people who are complacent are as much a part of this problem as the problem itself.
………………………………………
Thank you for your reply. A few things, though—you are very right that complacency regarding the Jihad threat is a *huge* problem in the West. But this complacency is not in much evidence here at Jihad Watch—far from it.
There are a handful of posters content to post “Islam sucks!” over and over again, but I believe you will find the level of discourse here generally far removed from that. I know that I have learned a great deal here—from Robert Spencer and from official contributors to Jihad Watch, but also from many of the knowledgeable posters here.
And many posters here are *very much* involved in opposing Jihad beyond this forum in the real world.
Many posters have their own blogs, and many belong, as Mirren notes, to Anti-JIhad groups. In addition, many contribute financially to JW or to other groups opposing Jihad. Many speak in their own communities or to their church or civic groups. Many here march or demonstrate against Jihad or in support of Israel. Then there are others who are military, former military, or who work in security or law enforcement who focus on self-defense. Several teach self defense, martial arts, or how to effectively use firearms.
More:
Being a “team player” is a value that is pushed often by businesses in their job ads in an attempt to attract people who will conform to authority. Employees who conform to authority are the kind of people who make life much easier for management because they want to set the agenda. But in this context, referring to someone who wants to actually focus on finding solutions to problems as “not a team player” is misapplying this idea that “not team playing” is somehow a negative…
………………………………………
I believe you have to narrow a view of how the term “team player” may be used. It *may* be used as you suggest here—to describe someone who is a slavish conformist who would never rock the boat, but it can be used much more widely to denote someone who keeps his eye on the big picture—the threat of Islam, in this case—and is willing to work with people of different backgrounds and styles who share that same goal.
With just a few exceptions, I consider all posters here save for Muslim apologist trolls to be allies in the fight against Jihad. These posters come from six different continents; from the West, from other parts of Dar-al-Harb, and those bravely posting from behind enemy lines in Dar-al-Islam; they include men and women; they range in age from high-school students to octogenarians; they include Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Agnostics and Atheists; they include military, military vets, and civilians; and they come from diverse walks of life.
There are disagreements and even spats here—and why not? We have different ideas about how to face the existential threat of Islam. But over all, I am frequently impressed by how respectful people are. After all, these are our allies.
I believe *that* is the importance of being a “team player”—not of deferring to anyone else.
And your implication that Champ—or Mirren—are sheep-like conformists could not be more off-base—both are strong minded women who never shy away from boldly speaking their minds.
Moreover, Champ is not parochial at all in her alliances—I’m not sure where you got that idea. She is a devout, Bible-believing Christian, and has always strongly avowed that. But she also allies with Christians from other faith traditions—including Robert Spencer—as well as Jews, Agnostics, and Atheists. Two of her closest friends here, in fact, are agnostic. She is also a staunch supporter of Israel.
More:
It is not a positive to “team play” or agree with people who are not oriented toward a solution…
Is there something that you can do which will be productive Graven, to helping this situation? You must live around a community of people or churches or other places of worship in which you can directly go there yourself and let them know about Islam and ask them to pass this message onto their attendees. It is about time that people living in the west stopped discussing this problem and actually doing something to help. Talking achieves nothing. Most people who read these blogs are educated about Islam within a couple of visits. But most people, with this education, will elect to do little to nothing.
………………………………………
I agree with you that more needs to be done—but there is a great difference between encouraging people to do more and excoriating them for how little you perceive them to be doing now—especially since—with respect—as a new poster, you may well not be very familiar with what people here *are* doing.
Here is some of my Anti-Jihad artwork, including cartoons critical of the vile “Prophet”, my “Heroes Against Jihad” series, and posters like “Always Remember, Never Forget” commemorating 9/11 and “I Am a Gharkad Tree” standing for the victims of Islam:
http://s478.photobucket.com/user/gravenimageartist/library/?sort=3&page=1
I am also doing preliminary work on a graphic novel critical biography of Muhammed.
You seem like a passionate Anti-Jihadist, and one whose family has had first-hand experience with the horror of Islam. I’m sure you have a great deal to contribute. But learning who your allies are and how to work with them is no small matter.
I’d like to hear more from you and the Anti-Jihad work you are doing.
Champ says
Graven wrote:
“…but it can be used much more widely to denote someone who keeps his eye on the big picture—the threat of Islam, in this case—and is willing to work with people of different backgrounds and styles who share that same goal.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, Graven …that’s *exactly* what I meant by “team player”, and not what Jen had inferred.
And thank you for your kind, thoughtful and supportive words. You’ve known me for about 8 years, and based upon what you’ve written, you know me pretty well. Whereas Jen admits to reading JW for only 2 months (or so); which is not enough time to get know any commenter very well. And I’ve been posting since 2004 (wow 10 years!), so it takes time to fully understand where someone is coming from.
Your comment is very well written, and I always enjoy reading your thoughts.
Take care!
Mirren10 says
I will add this to what graven and Champ have already said. You went off on me on this thread, because you hadn’t read carefully what I had written.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/11/islamic-state-caliph-undead-calls-for-volcanoes-of-jihad/comment-page-1#comment-1148861
Also, when you accuse people on this board of not doing anything about islam except talk, you should realise you have in fact no actual knowledge **at all** of what regular commenters on this board do when they are not commenting, unless they choose to tell us.
Many commenters actively support anti-islam groups, such as SIOA. and other American groups, many UK commenters such as myself, support the EDL, LibertyGB , etc, and spend a lot of time writing to people in power, drawing their attention to issues. I myself have gone on several EDL marches.
So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, dear.
Champ; none of my business, but I don’t think you should be apologising to Jen, the boot’s on the other foot.
Champ says
Champ; none of my business, but I don’t think you should be apologising to Jen, the boot’s on the other foot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, MIrren10 …you’re right and the boot is on the other foot, I completely agree. I’m only apologizing for being rude by stating “get lost”. I could have been more polite and simply confronted her attacks on Jay Boo; but Jen really gets under my skin with her friendly fire–it isn’t right.
Champ says
ps Mirren10 …
And I read through the other thread that you’ve provided the link to, and now I do recall that exchange; and I see that Jen never apologized to you for her mistake and misread. Hmm. Perhaps she’ll offer one now. We’ll see.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take care, my friend …you are the best!! XO
Jen says
Mirren, your other comment about not knowing what to do besides writing letters and telling people you know at this stage suggests you haven’t done enough. You spend far too much time on this internet forum, by the mere fact that you are writing on it still, when you could have spent the time actually working toward something productive. Crap Mirren, crap. And the boot NOT on the other foot whatsoever. Put a fire up your backside and do more. I won’t be smoking a pipe- I’ll be taking action and riling as many people as possible in real life to take action. This is what a responsible person would do. You are no doubt older than I am so have probably been aware of the problem and its scale for much longer.
Champ defending Jay Boo is not doing a favour for him because Jay Boo has been commenting on this forum for a reasonable amount of time and still talking about something which has no impact on anything. No categories of Muslims, nominal or not, has ever prevented any of these attacks from happening. Unless someone intends on opening an academy to convert Muslims to Christianity or convince them to leave Islam or have personal conversations with them, it makes no real difference. There is no point having this soft intellectual or ‘soft c*ck’ approach to this problem. The west needs to get more proactive about this. Everyone. People on this forum ignore these people saying these things and even encourage them by defending them!
And Champ, you haven’t disagreed with anyone who referred to you as a devout Christian so I will assume this is true. If you want to defend Christianity against his ghastly opposing death cult, you need to go anywhere and everywhere that you possibly can to tell as many people as you can about what is going on here. This religion calling itself Islam is a joke. Christians in the west take it for granted that they can practice their religion to their heart’s content, while there are people of the same religion as them being killed over this. Christians in the west, I imagine, generally know very little about how much the followers of Islam are killing fellow Christians off. Every church needs to know about this. And every other place of worship actually. A society is made up of individuals. It is this laid back attitude in the west which has contributed to this problem becoming as it is. Nobody needs to be coddled here. Western culture is weak in the sense that it is a ‘mixed bag’ without a unifying religion any longer. This really does make a difference when it comes to solidarity. Hard to explain for me, but it helps enormously to unite people. Even if many are in fact ‘culturally’ Christian (or any other religion). Additionally, the west is not so much a collectivist culture so people do not speak to one another as much, nor have a strong focus on family including that of extended family. It’s almost floating around without an anchor. People haven’t had a strong enough response because they most likely did not have enough people to get angry *with*. As in those living right inside their community. This makes for a weakened society. Muslims on the other hand, are quite collectivist and this is much to their advantage. The west needs to adapt to fit this threat. Not keep doing what it was doing before, which helped to lead it down this path in the first instance. There was a Muslim person who commented on the west in this regard sometime earlier but also seemed to sympathize with his fellow Muslims who had turned ‘radicalised’ due to rejecting western culture. Of course, that nominal Muslim would help the situation if he stopped identifying with the group he was apparently criticising instead of remaining there. But his point about the weakened state of western society, I think was actually quite valid. It is communities and towns which are attacked, and not internet forums in which there are people all across the world commenting on them. By the manner that people are discussing this problem on internet forums, it is quite obvious that this suburbanite mentality is still there, despite the fact that Muslims have already made their threat to the west. We can see from what they have already done that they make good on their promises. Somebody who isn’t interested in making friends, but is interested in reminding people to stop allowing themselves to think of things which have no impact on anything is called for because everyone more or less ignores these people- as I said! We do not need to all get along here. The west just needs individuals who are willing to take more action. You can’t rely on groups and their agenda to do enough. This a strange outlook I find. Individuals need to branch off and do as much as possible instead of waiting for an established group to hold a meeting or protest or whatever else they do.
Angemon says
Jen posted:
“Mirren, your other comment about not knowing what to do besides writing letters and telling people you know at this stage suggests you haven’t done enough. You spend far too much time on this internet forum, by the mere fact that you are writing on it still, when you could have spent the time actually working toward something productive. Crap Mirren, crap. And the boot NOT on the other foot whatsoever. Put a fire up your backside and do more.”
Apparently, Jen knows more about what Mirren can or will do, or has has done in the past, and it’s effectiveness, not to mention the amount of time Mirren spends on JW or what she could be doing instead. Classy!
Champ says
Double Standard Alert!
What I find most amusing and hypocritical about Jen’s comments is the amount of time SHE spends reading Jihad Watch and then she turns around and criticizes everyone else for doing what *she’s* doing herself …and then she puts many posters under a microscope and takes their inventory. Jen has certainly revealed herself as mean and unfriendly. And if Jen wants to minimize the importance of making friends–whether here on Jihad Watch, or out in the world–then she’s only hurting herself. Friendships are an important key to success and happiness in life.
And I consider Jay a good friend ..do I agree with everything he writes? No. But we agree on the main point here: that islam is the real enemy. Too bad that Jen doesn’t know this. No, she’s too busy with the friendly fire and insults.
And I also consider Mirren10 a good friend, too, and Jen has some nerve insulting her the way that she did. It’s obvious that Jen is not here in good faith–as she claims. Her own toxic and mean words contradict herself, and her nastiness is here for all the world to see.
Ok, Graven, do you better understand *why* I initially told Jen to “get lost”? She’s not here in good faith, at all.
Jen says
SHE spends reading Jihad Watch and then she turns around and criticizes everyone else for doing what *she’s* doing herself …and then she puts many posters under a microscope and takes their inventory.
————————————————————–
I discovered this blog roughly two+ months ago. Not years ago! That’s the difference. And since then, I’ve realised that people talk far too much about nothing when they could spend that time doing something. The fact that there are people on here, probably like Angemon and yourself doing this has inspired me to take more action! Some people have been on here talking for YEARS! Hard to believe. You must have repeated yourself an awful lot in that time. So thank you for that and thank you very much Angemon for taking the time to read and quote from what I wrote. You worry about receiving personal apologies from people you have not met when the real problem is going on inside your countries. If ‘friendly fire’ ‘gets under your skin’ then your skin must be very thin. It all pales in comparison. My focus is on helping and working toward some kind of solution, if there is one. I will get to work helping rather than talking and talking and talking and talking much like the people who become ‘fans’ of a blog in order to find their sense of ‘community’ when they should be out there in the real world doing something productive.Just be proud that you have managed to teach at least one person something; though not intentionally. If this is an example of what the older generations of western society looks like then I can see why this problem progressed. Thanks for the lesson guys and peace out! You shouldn’t be defending your positions and that’s the sad part about it and you probably can’t see it.
Jen says
Champ says: “Not in good faith”
Champ, my faith in God revolves around doing community work. My faith does not revolve around praying for my own needs. I need nothing really. I am incredibly blessed in this life. I know the struggles of people in this world and there is nothing I need to ask for because every tool I could possibly ever want to make a difference in my life and the lives of others are at my disposal because I live in the west. I am grateful and that is why I care to help. Looking around at the pathetic state of people calling themselves Christian is what is truly the shame. This is the difference between Christians which quote incessantly out of Bible and go to church all the time and believe they are ‘Bible believing Christians.’ Faith is in work. Not in words. Not in pages in a book. You will always be perceived based on work, not on what you say. The proof is in the pudding. You give meaning to these words through your contribution to this world where you attempt to leave it better than it was. I work hard to earn money so I can donate it to worthy causes. I am intending on starting my own charity in the next two or so years. Meanwhile others claim that “money is the root of all evil” when I know that money is purely a tool which makes the world go round. The person behind the money is what is important, not the money itself. Hope you older Christians have realised that faith is displayed through work. Not “faith and faith alone.” We are here to serve. Not be religious bigots like some of the people I’ve seen on this forum and elsewhere! These people are probably quite a lot older than me as well. Shocking. You can’t discredit me Champ because in all honestly I am genuine in my beliefs and I always stand up them (in real life, that is). So peace!
Champ says
Jen is absolutely right …I cannot discredit her, nor would I try. Jen has done this all by herself with her mean and nasty comments towards others here. The meanest thing I wrote to Jen was to “get lost”, and I’ve already apologized for that, to which she did not accept; and I also challenge her to find anything else that I have written to level against me. She can’t. All she does is come up with her own internal head trash to throw my way.
No, I have not discredited Jen, she has done this all by herself …reread her mean and *awful* comments and judge for yourself.
Mirren10 says
Jen is not a team player”
”What Champ is trying to say is that I have own thoughts, which stick to. And I don’t bend to being a sheep. And. And I am going to make the resources I compile, available on my blog. And additionally, I am going to prepare country-specific information for different countries (because you know, I’m not selfish and I care for the suffering of people everywhere, not just in the country I live in ). And people will be able to go there and print this information out and distribute it in their countries.”
You are really one **arrogant** little bint.
You failed to address my point that you have absolutely no knowledge of what people who comment here, do outside of this website. Neither have you acknowledged your misreading of my comment on the thread I referred to.
Arrogant, and absolutely full of yourself. Your rudeness and arrogance doesn’t make you some kind of ‘warrior’, it just makes you a bad mannered brat.
Your ‘blog’ that you refer to, (and I note you haven’t posted a link; does it exist only in your imagination, or is it that you consider us here at JW not worthy of your pearls of wisdom ?) from what you say as to its purpose, is no different from many similar blogs where one can download material about islam. That’s not to say you shouldn’t go ahead with it; the more information out there and available, the better.
” I am so much a team player that I am organising a group of people to educate others about Islam- in real life that is; not purely on internet forums.”
Fine, but as I said before, what makes you think others on this board aren’t doing the same kind of thing ? You have absolutely *no* knowledge of what those who comment here do when they’re not commenting, and it is the height of rude and silly arrogance to presume you know what others are doing.
It is also the height of arrogance to assume that what *you* do is somehow more valuable than anything other people do.
Please, stick to your previous decision not to comment here anymore.
Champ says
Mirren10, I honestly agree–word for word–with what you stated to Jen. Spot on! …and I started to write a really long reply, but you’ve actually said it best.
Champ says
Dear Mirren10! …I want to share some wonderful news with you that hubby and I received yesterday–our daughter-in-law is expecting–again! This will be their 4th child; due late July, and our 8th g’child!! I am over the moon with happiness, and I’m going to share this joyous news Christmas Day when everyone else is wishing each other “Merry Christmas”, etc; but I wanted *you* to be the first to know on this forum …gosh our oldest g’child is 6, so it seems like every 9 months, or so, I’m sharing the news of *new* arrival with my friends on JW! lol! 🙂
Angemon says
Well, congratulations to you all 🙂
Champ says
Thank you, Angemon!! 🙂
gravenimage says
Champ, I’d like to join Angemon in congratulating you and your family on the news of an impending new addition!
Champ says
Thank you, dear Graven! 🙂
gravenimage says
Great comments, Mirren and Champ. Thanks.
TruthWFree says
Stupid people like Biden should not even comment on Satan’s religion.
I do understand why Obama picked him. Make Obama look intelligent. I’d rather have the idiot Biden in the White House than the evil illegal Obama.
Islam is evil period. Good people trapped in
Islam should leave it.
RRO says
AMEN to that!!!
RRO says
At http://www.faithfreedom.org/?p=10558 (a website owned by an ex-Muslim who used to be a “Muslim” scholar on Islam and is now a “humanist” scholar on Islam) I discovered something that demonstrates Islamic logic. If non-Muslims are not terrified about how top Islamic authorities think, then after reading this they may very well have a change of heart towards every Muslim.
{QUOTE]
A friend had a chat with a Muslim cleric in charge of answering questions online about whether Allah loves pigs and if not why he created them. He sent it to me and I thought it is quite funny.I hope you will enjoy it too.
Please wait for a site adviser to respond.
You are now chatting with ‘Tariq’
Tariq: Hello. Welcome to our live chat.
Tariq: How can I assist you today?
you: Hi my name is Mark Dukic.
Tariq: Nice to meet you
you: Nice to meet you Tariq
Tariq: Are you a born Muslim, a convert, or a non-Muslim?
you: oh I am a non Muslim…currently atheist
you: but I am interested in Islam…
Tariq: Is there a specific question I can help you with?
you: ok, to be a good Muslim, I must refer to Quran and hadith or only the Quran?
Tariq: both
Tariq: They are insuperable and indispensable for a Muslim.
you: ok got it…I need to refer both. How easy to convert to Islam? Because I fear Arab language is so hard to understand.
Tariq: It’s very simple actually. All that a person has to do is to say a sentence called the testimony of faith (shahadah).
you: oh really?
Tariq: there are so many things you can learn without learning Arabic
Tariq: So it can be delayed for the time being.
Tariq: If you wish, I can help you convert. It is easy and we can do it now within few minutes!
you: ok another question. If I am bored of Islam and want to leave it, will it be hard?
Tariq: Theoretically yes, but this can’t happen.
Tariq: Islam is a perfect choice.
you: So I am allowed to leave Islam if don’t I believe in it anymore?
you: Is Allah truly the creator of everything in this world and universe? Are there any other gods?
Tariq: No perfect faith form God allows its followers to leave so long as it’s really the ultimate solution for humankind.
Tariq: It would simply mean the faith believes there may be better options
you: ok I understand…
Tariq: but you must not worry about being bored at all.
you: So sir, Is Allah the creator of the world and universe?
Tariq: yes
you: Is Allah a loving god?
Tariq: Yes, but not unconditionally loving
Tariq: he loves and hates
you: Allah hates?
Tariq: He hates sinners and loves them of they become good
you: oh ok. But Allah does all Allah’s creation right?
Tariq: yes, Allah is God.
Tariq: he tells about Allah his attributes
you: So summary Allah is a loving god…right?
Tariq: yes, of course
Tariq: He is loving a and merciful
you: So does Allah loves pig?
Tariq: he does not say he loves it [or] hates it. It’s there to test us. He created it and told us not to eat it.
Tariq: The difference between believer in God and non- believer is that a believer expects God to be good, merciful and loving even when he is tested, it’s true there is Hellfire, Punishments and afflictions but he sees these as deterrents and functional evil.
you: So Allah really loves pig right? I mean Allah forbid mankind to eat pig because Allah really loves pig right?
Tariq: No, I don’t see any logic in this.
Tariq: Why would he love it?
you: why not? allah is the creator of everything and allah is a loving god, and what’s wrong with Allah loving pig?
Tariq: It’s a filthy animal.
you: but created by Allah right?
Tariq: I said that God is not so sweepingly loving, He has many attributes all of which make the concept of God.
Tariq: You can see him as loving only.
you: but loving is one of Allah’s attributes right? So Allah loves pig…right?
Tariq: Again, I won’t be made to say what he does not say.
Tariq: The answer is, I don’t know.
you: You don’t know? But all this while I thought Allah is a loving and just god. So Allah must have loved pigs…right?
Tariq: If you though so you are wrong.
you: What’s wrong with Allah loving pigs?
Tariq: I don’t wish to go into this anymore please
you: then I have to conclude that Allah really loves pigs and that’s why Allah forbid mankind from eating it.
Tariq: Am stepping away for prayer. Will be right back
you: Sure no problem mate
********
Tariq: Am back
you: so you agree with my conclusion? Allah is truly a loving god?
Tariq: God has many attributes, love is one.
you: And Allah loves pig….right?
Tariq: May I ask you a question?
you: sure mate…
Tariq: why do you love pigs so much?
you: because Allah loves pig…so what’s wrong with me loving pig?
Tariq: if you love them do it on your own.
Tariq: You’re overdoing it.
you: Wait? Allah the loving god does not love pigs? Why not?
Tariq: He does not love filth, or people who love filth.
you: but Allah created pigs. You mean He is not a loving god?
Tariq: How about goats and Guinea pigs?
you: Yeah, Why not Allah loves goats right? Allah loves dinosaurs too right?
Tariq: platypuses?
you: why not!…ha ha…
Tariq: ha ha?
you: so Allah loves all animals, right?
Tariq: Making fun of God?
you: Me making fun of all mighty God? Come on mate. I don’t have that power….
Tariq: You will pay for this, mate, when you meet him, mate.
you: Pay? Pay what? Allah does not have a sense of humor?
Tariq: You are doing this very powerfully. You are committing the worst kind of disbelief
you: I thought Allah is a loving god, yet he is slighted by my comment?
Tariq: Pigs won’t go to hell, you may.
you: Worst kind of disbelief? You mean Allah will toss me in hell for saying Allah is a loving god?
Tariq: Let’s call it a day
[END OF QUOTE]
Even little children, pigs, or insects are more logical than this cleric.
The logic that the Muslim cleric (mentioned in the chat session) uses seems quite typical of the logic that I find in the Qur’an and in practically every authentic Islamic authority.
So, in light of this, I wonder why so many of us non-Muslims seem to think that there is absolutely nothing about Muslims that should concern us about our safety and the safety of our children.
Jen says
I agree. Their mindset on its own is like a contagious brain infection. If they feel this way about Islam, then they probably also struggle to critically analyse other problems which doesn’t help. My pet cat is more probably more reasonable.
RRO says
Thank you Jen!
If this Islamic cleric has made a truly Islamic statement about pigs not going to hell, I am compelled to conclude that it would be better to be a pig than a human. After all, it would appear to me as if he pig’s future is eternally more blissful than the future of anyone who is going to spend it in hell.
But .then, that would lead me to the conclusion that Allah loves the pig more than any human that he decides to send to hell.
RRO says
I think that Islam is a very contagious mental disease that spreads through Jihad on every front! And because of its doctrine of Taqyya, I think it might be wise for us non-Muslims to find a way to confine every Muslim among us to mental institutions for deprogramming, because that doctrine makes it far too difficult for us to know who is and who is not our enemy, as it inspires Muslims to be behave peacefully until they outnumber or over power us.
I think this is more humane than wiping them out entirely and it is better than what is now being done.
However at the same time, I think it would be wise, for those of us who are in a position to judge and enforce our judgement, to judge the obviously violent ones in full accordance with the obviously unfair/unjust standards that they use to judge and maim, torture, and put to death others who have done no harm to anyone.
I also think it would be wise to become lobbyists who get legislators to draft laws that reflect this way of dealing with the entire global Islamic community.
Allahsnackbar says
I appreciate the fact that Spencer and others read and expose the Koran expertly. I find the idea of it so repulsive I don’t even like touching one of those books. Ironic I suppose, given that Muslims demonstrate the superstitious opposite to their nasty book. I reflect on this – am I being silly? I think actually it’s quite natural and its a genuine feeling I have. Its natural because I’d feel the same way handling an instrument, say, which i knew had been used to torture hundreds of people. Creepy, ugly, disturbing, all mixed together.
PE says
We need a modern day “Paul Revere” to alert people: “To arms, to arms….” or we will all be either Muslim or beheaded or enslaved.
How incredibly arrogant of Biden to lecture this woman about Islam. She was mutilated at age 5. She had to escape an arranged marriage. She had to flee Holland for her life after the murder of her associate (Van Gogh) for making a movie and lives under death threat here in the U.S. for speaking out about her real experiences.
And Biden says. “Let me tell you something about Islam”? What does he think he could possibly have to teller.
Mirren10 says
”Dear Mirren10! …I want to share some wonderful news with you that hubby and I received yesterday–our daughter-in-law is expecting–again! This will be their 4th child; due late July, and our 8th g’child!! I am over the moon with happiness”
Dear Champ, that is **wonderful** news, and I am so happy for you ! Many cyber hugs and kisses. 🙂
And I also have some news, **my** daughter is pregnant, finally, after trying for a long time, so *I’ll* be a co-granny, along with you, Deo Volente !
It’s really nice to share good news, when we have so much horror to contend with. God bless you all.
Champ says
Dear Mirren10, thank you, and wow how **wonderful** for you and your family!!! …expecting a precious Angel sent from Above!!! Yes, and we will be co-granny’s, lol! …more like go-granny’s since they keep me super busy 😀
Please keep me posted as to when the new ‘Baby’ arrives!! …get ready since *nothing* could have prepared me for how much love and joy g’children bring ..oh my!!
Have a very blessed Christmas! God Bless you, too!
Much Love,
XO
gravenimage says
Congratulations to both Mirren *and* Champ on the news of your soon-to-be new grandchildren! And an early Merry Christmas to you both!
Champ says
Thank you, dear Graven!! …and an early Merry Christmas to you, too! 🙂
Mirren10 says
Thank you, graven, and a very Merry Christmas to you, also !