As I said yesterday, the Western intelligentsia is very, very anxious that you have a positive view of Islam. Thus we see a steady stream of articles in the mainstream media assuring you that the Qur’an is benign, the U.S. Constitution is Sharia-compliant, and the Islamic State is not Islamic. This goes for nominally “conservative” publications such as Forbes, as well as ones on the Left. These articles come in a steady stream, and they have to, because they are asking non-Muslims to disregard what they see every day — Muslims committing violence against non-Muslims and justifying it by referring to Islamic texts — and instead embrace a fictional construct: Islam the religion of peace and tolerance. This takes a relentless barrage of propaganda, because with every new jihad atrocity, reality threatens to break through. It wasn’t accidental that Hitler’s Reich had an entire Ministry of Propaganda: lying to the public is a full-time job, as the cleverest of propaganda constructs is always threatened by the simple facts.
Epitomizing the ignorance and complacency of this Forbes piece is the accompanying illustration: the black flag of jihad with the caption, “Very few Muslims are likely to follow this banner.” That proceeds from the assumption that this is the flag of the Islamic State. In fact, it has been used by other jihad groups, and as it says, “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah,” it could be said that every Muslim follows that banner, even if he or she doesn’t support the Islamic State.
“Five Reasons The ISIS Fight Isn’t About Islam,” by Loren Thompson, Forbes, February 26, 2015 (thanks to Maxwell):
Over the last several weeks, there has been a highly partisan debate in Washington about the proper characterization to apply to ISIS, the terrorist group that last year changed its name to Islamic State after declaring a caliphate in seized sections of Iraq and Syria. President Obama has resisted describing the hyper-violent group in religious terms, following the practice of many mainstream Muslim organizations that have branded ISIS “un-Islamic.” Some Republicans think this reflects a White House in denial about the nature of the threat, and Graeme Wood has a seminal essay in the current issue of The Atlantic arguing persuasively that, “The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic.”
It isn’t really all that much of a partisan debate. Most establishment Republicans follow the Obama line that the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam, which, after all, is just a variation on the Bush line that the Islamic jihadists had twisted and hijacked the Religion of Peace. This is unquestioned dogma in Washington, enforced by iron fist. There are a few blades of grass poking through the concrete here and there, as the truth will inevitably defeat all attempts to stifle it. Wood’s notorious article was one of those.
The two sides in this debate seem to be talking past each other. It’s not that the White House isn’t conversant with what ISIS leaders believe,
Really? They’ve shown no sign of that.
just that it views the group as a cult of only passing significance in the broad sweep of Islamic history. As in the Christian religion, the global Islamic community contains many sects and offshoots that differ over interpretations of scripture. The main thing that distinguishes ISIS from these other factions is its recent ability to seize land and exploit social media (especially Twitter). But from the administration’s perspective, it would be counter-productive to suggest ISIS appeals to large numbers of Muslims; that would just play into the hands of the terrorists.
This assumes — as many, many people in Washington assume — that Muslims are looking to the White House and other non-Muslim authorities to give “legitimacy” to the Islamic State. In reality, it would be hard to find a Muslim who bases what he thinks is Islamic or not on what non-Muslim Western authorities say is and isn’t Islamic. For Obama to speak honestly about the nature of this threat would not “play into the hands of the terrorists” unless he had some magisterial authority among Muslims. He doesn’t.
The people taking the other side in the debate tend to be partisan opponents of the White House, and typically present the ISIS threat as a major challenge to U.S. influence in the Muslim world. They view ISIS as fundamentally different from previous jihadist groups — more popular, more organized, and more violent (if that’s possible). Every new video of an ISIS atrocity becomes grist for this alarming narrative. However, the evidence suggests that the alarmists are over-estimating ISIS’s appeal and staying power — in much the same manner as those who warned of more catastrophes to come in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks. Here are five reasons why factually and tactically, it makes no sense to turn the ISIS threat into a fight about Islam.
1. Look at the numbers. Active participants in ISIS consist mainly of young Sunni men living in the Arab world. You probably already know that, but think about what it means — (1) young, (2) Sunni, (3) men who are (4) Arabs. If you were to graphically depict these characteristics in a Venn diagram of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims, they would be a minority within a minority. Four out of five Muslims aren’t Arabs and don’t live in the Middle East. Among those who do maybe a quarter are young Sunni males, and most of them show little inclination to actively support ISIS. The movement isn’t going to hold much appeal for Muslim women, given its well-documented record of atrocities against females who don’t follow rigid rules tracing back to early Islam. When you do the math, it appears that the “addressable market” for ISIS ideas is 5% of the global Muslim community, and as of today most of that market isn’t buying.
Yes, and the Bolsheviks were never a majority in Russia, and the National Socialists never won an absolute majority in a German election. But where is the Muslim pushback against this organized, energized vanguard? We have recently seen hundreds of thousands of Muslims demonstrate against cartoons of Muhammad; there have not been any Muslim demonstrations, however, against the Islamic State — much less efforts to teach against its understanding of Islam in Muslim communities.
2. Non-Muslims have committed similar atrocities. Much of the hysteria surrounding ISIS results from carefully choreographed depictions of atrocities against its enemies. The unspoken assumption among many Western observers is that these acts reflect a uniquely barbaric aspect of Muslim (or Arab) culture. The reality is that such behavior has occurred frequently throughout history, and you don’t have to reach back to the Middle Ages to find examples outside the Muslim world. The Nazis brutalized millions of European men, women and children. During the six-week “Rape of Nanking” in 1937-38, hundreds of thousands of civilians including babies were executed by Japanese troops, often in “killing contests.” White racists waged a multi-generation terror campaign in the American South that resulted in 4,000 lynchings, sometimes accompanied by public castrations and immolations. There is nothing uniquely Islamic about such behavior.
Irrelevant. The fact that there is “nothing uniquely Islamic” about what the Islamic State does in no way establishes that its behavior isn’t sanctioned and justified by Islamic texts and teachings.
3. Everybody in ISIS doesn’t believe the same thing. Graeme Wood contends in The Atlantic that all of the senior leaders of ISIS subscribe to the same eschatological interpretation of Islam, in which a decisive battle will play out in the Holy Land during the end days. Maybe they do, but as Joshua Keating points out in Newsweek, ISIS has “lower criteria for membership” than other jihadist groups like al-Qaeda. It isn’t likely all those former Iraqi military commanders that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi brought into the ranks after taking over in 2010 — who came to comprise a third of the group’s top military commanders — share the same apocalyptic vision. Nor probably do the various Africans, Asians and Europeans who have fallen for the on-line propaganda of ISIS. ISIS is a complex operation whose followers have diverse beliefs and motives. They may all be Muslims but that doesn’t mean they all share the same precise creed.
Really? How many creeds are there among Muslims? This point is based on sheer ignorance of Islamic theology and law. In fact, the Muslims who are committed to the Islamic State do all believe the same thing. There may be variations among Muslims outside it, but not among its cadres. And none of the disagreements are creedal. The Muslim creed is simple and universally adhered to by Muslims — to affirm it is what makes one a Muslim: “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet,” which is, again, what is on that flag that Forbes says that few Muslims will follow.
4. For many ISIS members, Islam is a pretext. ISIS isn’t the first militant organization that has attracted young men to its cause by claiming to represent a higher calling. Hitler’s early appeal to alienated young males in the beer halls of Munich — the notion of a thousand-year Reich, the need for lebensraum, the scapegoating of Jews, the rejection of cosmopolitan values – was similar to the appeals that ISIS issues today. It appears that every culture produces large numbers of young males who can be mobilized in the pursuit of millenarian philosophies, not because of the specific content of the vision, but because young men yearn for power and status and resources (not to mention mates). If we focus too closely on the Islamic features of what ISIS leaders propound, we will miss the underlying motivational dynamics that explain why such movements have similar success at recruiting even when they espouse completely opposite ideas.
To follow this logic, one would have to hold that Nazi Germany wasn’t Nazi because some of its followers were disaffected young males who had been mobilized in pursuit of millenarian philosophies. In other words, Forbes is so intent on establishing that the Islamic State isn’t Islamic that it is straying into absurdity.
5. ISIS says more about human nature than about Islam. You don’t have to read the details of any account about violence to know the perpetrator was a man, and probably a young one. If you strip away all the particulars that seem to make ISIS different from other terrorist groups, you are left with an inescapable reality of human nature. To quote three social scientists writing in the journal Philosophical Transactions, “Men’s tendency to engage in coalitional aggression is manifest in all cultures, modern and traditional, and is therefore considered a human universal.” The fact this trait has persisted in the human behavioral repertoire for thousands of generations, originating long before the appearance of the Prophet, tells us that at base ISIS has little to do with Islam. We can argue about what needs gave male violence value in evolution, but attaching its worst manifestations to one religion is misleading.
Yes, there is a violent strain in human nature. The question at hand is whether or not Islamic texts and teachings encourage that strain, rather than discourage it. This article completely sidesteps that question, while claiming to answer it.
None of this detracts from the imperative to do something about the threat that ISIS poses. However, there is no need to alienate the 99% of Muslims who find ISIS repulsive in prosecuting a campaign against the organization. How would Americans feel if the Ku Klux Klan was labeled a “Christian terrorist organization” by foreigners? Yes it espoused a version of Christian values and yes it practiced a kind of terrorism noteworthy for its reliance on atrocious behavior, but it held little appeal for most Christians. Washington and its allies can defeat ISIS without letting the terrorists define the terms of debate.
The KKK’s ideas were repudiated by all Christian sects. By contrast, the teachings of the Islamic State — warfare against unbelievers, the caliphate, etc. — are held by all sects of Islam and schools of Islamic jurisprudence, even as they reject the Islamic State’s embodiment of those principles. That’s a big difference, but it isn’t dealt with in this simplistic and silly article.
cs says
That is a real brainwash.
Champ says
5 LIES from Forbes!
Champ says
1. Look at the numbers.
2. Non-Muslims have committed similar atrocities.
3. Everybody in ISIS doesn’t believe the same thing.
4. For many ISIS members, Islam is a pretext.
5. ISIS says more about human nature than about Islam.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forbes’ list of “reasons” are all in an effort to put up a smoke screen and protect the reader from the ugly truth about islam. C’mon the truth is that islam is inherently violent and EVIL. Period. Yes, I know, the truth does hurt, but oh well …
EYESOPEN says
Spot-on Champ! Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Champ says
Hi, EYESOPEN!! ..thank you 🙂
Spooked Pork Consumer says
Yes, total hogwash.
This video from an atheist addresses points 4 and 5 which are the same. It also trashes Reza Aslan.
Spot On says
Elite rubbish! Academics and their spawn are responsible for this gross misrepresentation. When did this writer become an authority on Islam or any,other religion for that matter. If he were correct about his comparisons to human nature, all religions would be doing this today.
EYESOPEN says
Also spot-on, “Spot On”!
Hampton says
OT BREAKING:
Bangladeshi-American writer hacked to death at book fair in Bangladesh for blasphemy, “defaming Islam”
(headline stolen from /r/islam)
http://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/2015/feb/26/writer-avijit-roy-killed-miscreants-attack
Leith Wood says
What a stupid, uninformed article. Forbes really blew it. I won’t read them now.
Mahmoud says
“Really? How many creeds are there among Muslims? This point is based on sheer ignorance of Islamic theology and law. In fact, the Muslims who are committed to the Islamic State do all believe the same thing. There may be variations among Muslims outside it, but not among its cadres. And none of the disagreements are creedal. The Muslim creed is simple and universally adhered to by Muslims — to affirm it is what makes one a Muslim.”
There are many different schools of creed within islam, with radical differences. Ash’ari, Maturidi, Athari, Murji’ah, Mu’tazili, to name some. You have a very limited knowledge of islam Robert, or you’re being disingenuous.
Champ says
“…or you’re being disingenuous.”
Got a mirror? You are the one being disingenuous …
Robert Spencer says
Do you know what the word “creed” means?
Demsci says
Mahmood: “There are many different schools of creed within islam, with radical differences.”
On the other hand it seems to me that both Robert Spencer thinks that it is clear what the essential tenets in Islam are, that he argues that the agreements among Muslims on essential tenets are more significant and effective than the disagreements among Muslims about these essential tenets.
The Quran says it is clear, but is supposed to be the word of God, Divine. Therefore it is immutable. But it is the most important book to live by for Muslims. But for Kuffars, their laws, that THEY are supposed to live by, can at least be improved upon when they are unclear and causing misunderstanding.
Turkish prime minister Erdogan insists that there is only ONE Islam. And this is maintained by many Muslims. It looks like you, Mahmood, do not only contradict Robert but also with Erdogan and many other Muslims.
I think Muslims try to have it both ways; on the one hand they in large numbers and officially maintain that Islam is clear, that there is only one Islam.
But on the other hand when a Kuffar like the Forbes-Kuffar excuses the perceived bad influence of Islam by saying that the Muslims believe many different “creeds”, and then
a critic of Islam maintains the same as the prime minister of Turkey, namely that there is only one Islam, THEN
other Muslims side with the Kuffars that excuse Islam and against the critic of Islam, but also against the Turkish Prime Minister and all Muslims who maintain that Islam is clear and it’s essential tenets are believed across the board by the Ummah.
But if I side with the Forbes-Kuffar and you, Mahmood, my price would be that you and other Muslims, like the Forbes-Kuffar and me would finally admit that
the Quran, and the Hadiths-Sira, and the Tafsir, that they all are simply NOT CLEAR, NOT COMPLETE, by now very obsolete and very ambiguous and contradictory,
problematically prone to an understanding of it that is violent, supremacist and anti-democratic (something Robert has shown innumerable times, through exposing what various Muslims themselves said and did, in the name of Islam).
Angemon says
Mahmoud posted:
“There are many different schools of creed within islam, with radical differences. Ash’ari, Maturidi, Athari, Murji’ah, Mu’tazili, to name some. You have a very limited knowledge of islam Robert, or you’re being disingenuous.”
Which of those schools teach the following:
1 – Jesus was the son of God.
2 – Jesus died in the cross.
3 – Jesus came back from the dead.
4 – Muslims and non-muslims are equal before the law.
5 – Women have the same rights and obligations as men.
6 – Women can marry up to 4 husbands, of enjoy only those which their right hands possess
7 – Men are not allowed to beat their wives.
8 – Women are allowed to beat their husband.
9 – The testimony of a woman is worth the same as that of a man.
10 – Islam is not to be made supreme over all religions.
rob774 says
1. The NSDAP didn’t represent every German.
2. That is the most terrible argument I have ever heard. It’s like saying burglary is OK because car thieves are horrible too.
3. They believe they are right, that is enough.
4. For many ISIS members, Islam is a pretext and a perfect vehicle for conquest. Just as it was for Mohammed himself.
5. Islam was created by humans. Everything about it is to do with human nature.
6. Islam is trying to dominate the world. Nitpicking about which ones are nice is a waste of time.
mortimer says
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf emirates and Jordan and other countries don’t want anyone to say ISIS is Islamic.
The problem with saying ‘ISIS is Islamic’ is that young people will want to join ISIS if they think it is authentic Islam, so they tell us to lie and they ask everyone to lie.
The lie is directed at young Muslims, rather than at the West. We know bloody well ISIS is Islamic.
We’re bloody disgusted with Islam…every type of Islam is repulsive and backward. There is no ‘good Islam’.
EYESOPEN says
Amen Mortimer!
vlparker says
Well, gee, what’s the big deal. The Nazis did it too. Yeah and they murdered 6 million Jews. Are we supposed to wait until ISIS murders 6 million Jews before we say, hey, maybe these guys are the real deal after all. Maybe they’re not the JV.
Where do these morons who write these articles get their education. How can anyone be that stupid?
EYESOPEN says
Not stupid. Merely mouthing the party line for the “izlam is a religion of peace” shills who pay their salaries.
vlparker says
Yes, they are stupid because they are committing suicide and don’t even know it.
Robert Young says
Islam is the problem because it is the backbone of these idiots.
Islam is a Lie told to an illiterate Camel herder in a dark cave by Lucifer himself. There is nothing in the un-holy Koran which is not in direct conflict with either the truth or the Bible (actually they are one in the same). Islam could truthfully considered as the Gospel of Satan.
Jesus is returning very soon and He will settle Satan’s account in full. I can’t hardly wait till then because the Lord Jesus will win, every knee will bow to Him, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord of ALL.
Champ says
Amen, Robert!
EYESOPEN says
And I’ll second that “Amen” Mr. Young!
dumbledoresarmy says
You say, “Jesus is returning very soon “.
*How* soon?
Care to put some numbers on that?
Do you expect His return during your lifetime? (How old are you? 20? 30? 40? 50? 60?).
Next week?
Next month?
Within six months?
A year?
Five years?
Ten years?
Twenty years?
Fifty years?
100 years?
Longer than that?
When you say something like “very soon” you had better be prepared for someone to ask you to define your terms.
vlparker says
And the KKK was a democrat party organization, not a Christian organization.
Michael Johnson says
Another dumd comment by westerners that don’t know what they are talking about no clue about Islamic history or history of Muhammad and the atrocities he committed in the name of his false religion
jihad3tracker says
I have not found Loren Thompson’s email address, but he works at the Lexington Institute, just outside of Washington DC.
Here is the general phone number listed : 703-522-5828. Maybe some of us here would like to leave a brief message, alerting him to Robert Spencer’s refutation of Thompson’s arguments in the Forbes article.
Among other remarks in a conversation or message, you could direct him to Spencer’s credentials as an expert regarding Islam (in the “About Robert Spencer” link at the Jihadwatch homepage).
And also his standing offer to engage in serious debate about Islam via a public venue, if Mr. Thompson want to do so — or start a dialogue on the blog with him (director@jihadwatch.org).
Ian_A_S says
Excellent dismantling of misinformation once again Robert. You are a light of reason in these new dark ages.
Patrick White says
The ‘reasons’ cited are so glib and so shallow, they amount to a gross breach of even modern journalistic standards.
Dan says
If this terrorist behavior wasn’t part of Islam and the Quran, then every single, solitary Muslim NOT behaving as such, should be helping rid the rest of the world of these monsters.
Even if it’s only confiding such to the closest of family and friends.
If not, they are as culpable as those who abided the Nazi extermination camps.
CogitoErgoSum says
For those who would like to read the Graeme Wood article in The Atlantic, here is a link:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
It’s a rather lengthy article but very informative and much more convincing than the Forbes piece of fluff.
Sheikh Yabooty says
Sorry for going off on a tangent, but there is one specific part of this horrible article that really bothers me – I have seen this line of thought before (among all of the other half-baked arguments against “Islamophobia”), but I really, sincerely don’t understand it. Mr. Thompson writes:
“How would Americans feel if the Ku Klux Klan was labeled a Christian terrorist organization by foreigners? Yes it espoused a version of Christian values and yes it practiced a kind of terrorism noteworthy for its reliance on atrocious behavior, but it held little appeal for most Christians.”
Robert responds, correctly, that “the KKK’s ideas were repudiated by all Christian sects”. There is a bigger assumption left un-addressed, though. Mr. Thompson wording implies that, just as the progressive left discounts the importance of ISIS, it also understands that the KKK and its ilk are, and always were, fringe movements within American culture and politics,
Why then, is there a need for so many “civil rights organizations” like the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)? Why have so many movies recently been produced (from “Selma” and “The Butler” to “42”), vividly illustrating that widespread bigotry existed in the Jim Crow south? Why would so many see the events in Ferguson, not as an isolated tragic incident, but as indicative of a grievous, persistent flaw in the national character?
In other words, Mr, Thompson’s comparison between ISIS and the KKK is not only unsound – it probably is also very profoundly disingenuous. If a Hollywood producer were to make a film about today’s “Jim Crow Middle East”, showing ISIS and al-Queda as the hard-core vanguards of larger societies mired in misogyny, racism, Antisemitism, and other forms of intolerance, that film maker would be branded a right-wing nut-job and an Islamophobe.
Put another way – in reality, people like Mr. Thompson seem to feel that the KKK is actually much, much worse that ISIS; otherwise there would be no reason to continually examine the underlying factors in American society that gave rise to this hate group. Will anyone on the left ever admit that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, in 2015, are at least as bad as Mississippi and Alabama were back in 1955?
Wellington says
Arguably the single greatest stupidity in all of man’s history (and considering ALL of the many consequences of this stupidity), anywhere across the globe and at anytime, is the continued effort by so many, including by way too many on the Right as here evidenced by Forbes,, never mind the almost forever clueless Left, to exculpate Islam of its many horrible aspects——–and deeds.
This is ultimately rooted (at least for those on the Right) in a complete refusal to conclude that it is possible that mankind could develop, could produce, a major religion which is evil. Perhaps minor religions here or there, ephemeral as they are, might do so, but certainly no major faith with a lineage that stretches well over a thousand years (and with all those beautiful mosques and preservation of some of the stuff Aristotle and Plato said). Well, concluding this, on the surface reasonable, is actually a monstrours error. Forbes is now poster boy du jour for this monstrous error.
Holy Hell, when even the Right doesn’t “get” Islam, what does this betoken considering the Left is far more clueless than the Right about true evil? Well, it betokens the continuation of the Great Pretend Game (GPG), whereby Islam, horrible though it is, is still given a pass. Pathetic indeed. But instructive of how mankind cannot only err at times but monstrously err. And such a monstrous err costs. It’s costing right now.. It will continue to do so.
dsinc says
Loren Thompson writes about “the Prophet”, and not Islam’s Prophet, as if he actually existed. Doesn’t that make him a believer?
Demsci says
//”Yes, there is a violent strain in human nature. The question at hand is whether or not Islamic texts and teachings encourage that strain, rather than discourage it.”//
I think Robert nailed it here. What the Forbes-writer does is comparing and indeed showing what human nature can be like, how problematic young males can be, especially in large numbers. And yes, I too think we should try to be objective, and not measure with double standards, but ….
that still leaves the question Robert poses above, about the influence of Islamic texts.
And yes, the forbes-writer also compares the reaction of followers of creeds, like those of Islam and Christianity, by presenting the Ku Klux Klan, but….
The Christians react much clearer in the negative to the Ku Klux Klan and it’s ideas, than the Muslims do to the ideas of ISIS and Islamic terrorists.
Demsci says
Loren Thompson: //”as Joshua Keating points out in Newsweek, ISIS has “lower criteria for membership” than other jihadist groups like al-Qaeda.”//
Criteria for membership?!!! That would mean that new members would be vetted, tested about the essential tenets, goals, values, rules of the organisation. And it would mean that those who later violated those tenets etc. would be, warned once, then EVICTED from this organisation!
Compare that to the “Criteria for membership of Islam”!!! There are two; I. You must be “born into Islam”. It is expected that when you are old enough you will say the Shahada and obey the rules of Islam. II. You must be “converted into Islam” and then you must say the Shahada.
In both cases you are IN for life, with deathpenalty for “apostasy”.
Islam has very bad, low, contemptible “criteria for membership”! every nutcase born into Islam already meets the criteria! And when (s)he violates whatever rules Islam has, (s)he is still forbidden to leave Islam.
But does Loren Thompson even know this? I guess not, in his ignorance.
Eli says
So why is it so important to the elites that we all don’t see durkadurka as islamic, that we tolerate islam, & that we stick our heads in the proverbial sand & don’t notice that “moderate” muslims don’t condemn durkadurka?
I. Kahn says
The Qur’an and the Hadith may not be the spark that ignites all Islamic violence; however, it most certainly is it’s fuel.
Xero_G says
Robert Spencer does again what he does best; a thorough “Fisking” of an article that sadly, those not familiar with JW will take at face value. Required reading for all.
Roy Mears says
Obama and the press that protects him need to pull their collective craniums out of their recums. Islam is not a religion it is a cult and a damn deadly one at that. If we have to start to realise they have declared war on our way of life. Steps to stop them and protect ourselves have got to be taken and soon or we will be in a world of hurt. Obama, daily show the free world he is on the side of Islam in his actions and speeches. He is well on the path to selling out not only the west but the world to Islamic terror.
Siassi87 says
Interesting about item 1 …. 5% of 1.6 Billion is a nice 80 million …cut that in half for military age males and ISIS have potential for a reasonable size army…the zombie apocalypse just might be real
AJ Liberphile says
“Western intelligentsia is very, very anxious that you have a positive view of Islam. Thus we see a steady stream of articles in the mainstream media assuring you that the Qur’an is benign… the Islamic State is not Islamic. This goes for nominally “conservative” publications such as Forbes, as well as ones on the Left. ”
Actually the dam of concealed truth is leaking quite a lot. The Spectator is thouroughly islamorealistic (its unmoderated comments are no different from those here), and the Daily Mail dips its toes into dangerous waters from time to time, as here, although it keeps a fairly iron grip on comments.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2971357/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-No-Britain-not-blame-Jihadi-John.html
duh_swami says
A whole lot of obfuscation going on…
Only people with no book become experts at what they don’t know about.
They write articles and give speeches, but they do not debate…
M S case says
“eschatological interpretation of islam in which a decisive battle will play out in the Holy Land during the end times” Well it’s time to end the Islamic jihadist such as isis
dumbledoresarmy says
By way of contrast, let’s hear from two Australians – the very erudite Rev Dr Mark Durie, who has studied under Prof Hans Jansen at the University of Leiden, and a journalist named Tim Blair who, on the subject of Islam, is very sensible – have written excellent articles that deserve wider dissemination.
Here is Dr Mark Durie, with an article prompted by – and commenting upon – the Islamic State’s recent public murder of 21 Coptic Christians. an article which also recently appeared in “Quadrant” an Australian intellectual-type journal of conservative flavour.
http://blog.markdurie.com/2015/02/bearing-cross-letter-to-islamic-state.html
http://blog.markdurie.com/2015/02/a-message-signed-with-blood-to-nation.html
Worth reading. Click, read, and circulate.
And here is Tim Blair, blogging at “Telegraph”, just this week, with a marvellously sarcastic take on the “nothingtodowithIslam” meme. I don’t know whether this piece appeared in print as well as online, but it is *well* worth a read…
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/this_column_is_not_about_islam1/
On Obama: “US evader-in-chief Barack Obama, global leader of the nothing-to-do-with-Islam dodge squad..”.
“This Column Is Not About Islam”.
Read it. Roll about the floor laughing. Pass it on to your friends so that the already knowledgeable may enjoy and the as-yet-refusing-to-see-the-problem might get a bit of a jolt.
(don’t get me wrong, we have lots and lots of the “nothingtodowithIslam” crowd here in Australia, too; but voices like Tim Blair suggest to me that the wall of denial is starting to get thinner, bending and creaking as the weight of reality piles up and presses upon it, and cracks are appearing).
dumbledoresarmy says
I made a comment and it seems to have vanished.
So I will try again.
Apologies if this results in a double posting.
By way of contrast to the idiocy from “Forbes”, let’s hear two Australians – the very erudite Rev Dr Mark Durie, who has studied under Prof Hans Jansen at the University of Leiden, and a journalist named Tim Blair who, on the subject of Islam, is very sensible – have written excellent articles that deserve wider dissemination.
Here is Dr Mark Durie, with an article prompted by – and commenting upon – the Islamic State’s recent public murder of 21 Coptic Christians. an article which also recently appeared in “Quadrant” an Australian intellectual-type journal of conservative flavour.
http://blog.markdurie.com/2015/02/bearing-cross-letter-to-islamic-state.html
http://blog.markdurie.com/2015/02/a-message-signed-with-blood-to-nation.html
Worth reading. Click, read, and circulate.
And here is Tim Blair, blogging at “Telegraph”, just this week, with a marvellously sarcastic take on the “nothingtodowithIslam” meme. I don’t know whether this piece appeared in print as well as online, but it is *well* worth a read…
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/this_column_is_not_about_islam1/
On Obama: “US evader-in-chief Barack Obama, global leader of the nothing-to-do-with-Islam dodge squad..”.
“This Column Is Not About Islam”.
Read it. Roll about the floor laughing. Pass it on to your friends so that the already knowledgeable may enjoy and the as-yet-refusing-to-see-the-problem might get a bit of a jolt.
(don’t get me wrong, we have lots and lots of the “nothingtodowithIslam” crowd here in Australia, too; but voices like Tim Blair suggest to me that the wall of denial is starting to get thinner, bending and creaking as the weight of reality piles up and presses upon it, and cracks are appearing).
jihad3tracker says
Hello Dumble — Thanks for those links.
BTW, when remarks are sent to Jihad Watch in reply to a post, and they have hotlinks which are not already vetted as being non-hostile or non-spamming, the sources must be examined..
That is why your comment took time to appear . . . I have had the same lag after typing.
Jihadophobic says
I put a comment on that article about 12 hours ago and it still hasn’t appeared, nor have any others and I bet there are plenty of people who have tried to comment. Very strange.
Lloyd Miller says
Ok, but when does Robert Spencer, one of my heroes, ADMIT that OPEC PETRO-DOLLARS have purchased our Elite bankers and financiers behind the Mass Media? Said Elite is ORDERED by the Saudis and others to push the nonsensical pro-Islamic propaganda!
Edward Cline says
I left this comment on Forbes:
This is the kind of rationalization that poses a greater threat to freedom than Islam could possibly pose (except through violence). It ignores the fact that there is no fundamental difference between any of the Islamic sects; they all urge violent jihad against unbelievers and other Islamic sects. The West should make no artificial, evasive distinctions between any of the sects. They are all totalitarian in nature and in practice. And how else would you explain the interminable strife between Sunnis and Shi’ites; is it a matter of clashing wardrobes or differences in headgear, of Shi’ite turbans vs. WalMart dish towels? No. Each sect has its own vision of universal submission to Islam by everyone. Islam has declared war on Western civilization; ISIS is just the latest manifestation of that warfare. The flags are irrelevant. When General Kitchener defeated the Mahdists in the Sudan in the late 1890’s, the dervish army was marching and fighting under the same Black Flag. I suggest that the author take a much longer and harder look at Islam and also bone up on his history of Islam. There is no reconciliation between Islam and freedom.
Angemon says
Several thousands of non-arab European, Asian and American have joined the islamic state.
I’ve discussed enough muslims, both online and IRL, to know that not only the KKK is brought up as a mainstream example of Christianity, but also everything else they can think of. Nazism? A Christian organization. The bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? All done by Christians according to the Bible. 9/11? The work of Zionist Christians. The invasion of Iraq? A Christian action based on the Bible. But, according to Loren Thompson, I’m not supposed to state my case for why the islamic state is islamic, even though I have the moral high ground and the facts to back me up.
Loren Thompson can take a long walk of a short pier, for all I care, and take his idiotic, suicidal babble with him.
BC says
The IS people are smashing statues thousands of years old and burning whole libraries of books. What is that if bot following Islam which bans effigies. Even the Nazis and the Communists valued culture Only Islam requires the destruction of everything not sanctioned by the Quran
More Ham Ed says
The far-left liberal U.S. academics at Harvard, Columbia, Berkeley etc. are in too deep now with mass immigration being injected into U.S. policy over the past 30 years. They’re in too deep now with mass immigration and they will never be able to admit it that they’re importing a dangerous ideology. So they have to pretend that islam is a race, copy the 60s civil rights playbook, and defend their fake-equality policies to the bitter end.
cynical1 says
Mohammed would have been a perfect ISIS candidate.
Barbaric pirate who personally beheaded 700 in one day.
The apple don’t fall far from the tree..
Prinz Eugen says
Sad when FORBES and the GOP in congress fall for the big lie that “islam” means “peace!”: For mullah Barray Sotero, he is clearly pro-islam and in cahoots with islam. That should be deemed “treason,” but not by our congress. The Dems have bought the alliance with islam, and my guess is that many of the GOP in congress have been “bought” by donations from the Saudis, emirates etc. Any elected official taking funds from a moslem state or organization should be fired, fined, lose his pension and be exiled for life (go to Mecca, Quislings).
awake says
In an all too familiar climate that routinely sees the attempted whitewashing of Islam from the jihad committed daily by Muslims, this Forbes article is remarkably dim-witted and dishonest.
Jack Diamond says
Mark Durie on the White House statement concerning 21 martyred Christians called only ‘Egyptian citizens’: “this makes no mention of the reason the twenty one were killed: their Christian faith. This culpable denial dishonours them, as it dishonours me and Christians everywhere.” Cloud cuckoo land.
The ex-Muslim Ali Sina has long proposed a Hollywood film be made about the life of Muhammad, an accurate and truthful account that would wake people up once and for all to the source of these evils.
Of course, such a film would never be made, any son of Allah would earn merit for slaughtering those involved in it– not to mention you’d stop being invited to all the best parties. What the Islamic State is doing is making that film itself. They are the living embodiment of what Muhammad and his Companions did, for all to see and be shocked and horrified by. It is so stark and so brutally an accurate depiction of Islam without disguises that it has to be denied and denied and denied. Because Islam itself would come into question otherwise.
Islam has been cannibalistic since Muhammad croaked. Early caliphs were murdered and then the murderers murdered and on and on. Rival mosques have been burning down since Muhammad himself had one burned down. Declaring other Muslims apostate and killing them has been the favorite sport since Muhammad’s Companions– whenever there were no Jews or Christians or pagans to slaughter or humiliate. Rivals will contend but the jihad and Islamic supremacism are forever. As forever as Allah’s declared hate and enmity for the disbelievers and hypocrites. Never ever was there a misunderstanding of this infernal creed. Muslims don’t misunderstand the Qur’an and Sunnah. That’s a job for Infidels.
S says
So much stupidity yet another article which seems to try and lull the masses into a sense of security vis-à-vis Islamic jihad. ISIS seems to be increasing in attraction factor and not just to young Sunni Arab males. Non-Muslims are running off to Syria to live in the Caliphate, as well as females who are bombarding jihadis on Twitter with marriage proposals. The author here is incredibly naive, stupid or blinded by her own ideology. Another example of the not-too-distant past: Hitler’s Youth were not just males, young women also embraced it in hordes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL0T61XD-js
Lioness says
The usual morons that would rather submit than face the truth. Islam loves those that will apologize for them at every step. How about: there are no Islamic terrorists, there is no Jihad, there are many Christian and Jewish terrorists, Hamas wants peace, Muslim Brotherhood does not want to rule Egypt, and Obama is a patriot.
Jack Maxwell says
Its sad that Forbes would conform to the “peaceful Islam” groupthink. Perhaps because Forbes is a business journal and Middle Eastern oil wealth generates lots of business has something to do with it. Ms. Thompson’s piece is full of illogical deductions as Robert points out. She emphasizes the fact that ISIS is made up of Sunni Arab males who are only a small part of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims, but that 1.6 billion also includes ruthless terrorists in Nigeria, Sudan, Yemen, the Philippines and Iran who are not Sunni Arab.
Moreover, she must know throughout history, it only takes a tiny group of ruthless males, like an inner city street gang, to dominate a fearful and defenseless community. Obama, as a progressive, fully buys into the self-righteous idea that to believe one culture or idea is better than another is racist. So they unquestioningly accept the claim from American Muslim groups he sees in the White House that they oppose labeling ISIS as Islamic because it’s offensive, when some brave Middle Eastern leaders and clerics are. In our American frontier West, there were times when ruthless outlaws would try to ravage a community, like the James gang coming into a small Minnesota town to rob the banks holding the money of farmers who had worked all year to earn. But these pioneers were a hardy bunch, and they were well armed. The James gang got shot up so bad by mostly enraged private citizens only a few of them made it out alive.
While most of her arguments are just silly, what really is downright offensive is her parroting the left’s attempt to label Christianity and Islam as equal offenders. Judeo-Christian values radically transformed mankind for the better. Polygamy was the universal norm until Christianity’s insistence on monogamy liberated women. Slavery was the norm until the Golden Rule gradually eliminated it. The idea that man’s nature is inherently selfish and hence could not be trusted with power led to the checks and balances in successful democratic governments. The belief that God wants life to be a test of our free mandated individual liberty, or as Jefferson said, we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. The exercise of this free will in relation to commerce is capitalism which has done more to lift all of humanity out of grinding poverty than any socialist experiment. Christianity’s belief that human life is sanctified because we are made in God’s image is in stark contrast to the over 100 million murdered in the last century by the atheist Communist worker’s paradises. Now we are faced with another challenge from this religion that seems to be based what we see in nature, the strong male has the right to supremacy by virtue of his strength. We can fight this regressive idea or submit. God help us if we lose our will.
Bukkdem Jizheads says
This was a very good summation of the fundamental differences of Islam vs. Christianity. My question for Ms. Thompson: You imply every culture produces young males lusting for power in equal proportions. Could polygamy multiply the number of lustful, savage young males beyond any other social construct?
Nazis tried very hard to cover up the killing camps, and they were abetted by the left in the US. Now we have the Islamic Nazi’s crowing about their savagery in real time, and the left still doesn’t care.
Lucretius says
This article is a lot of type to say the same old “only a tiny percentage of muslims are violent jihadists, so the problem isn’t islam per se.” But violent jihadism is only the spear point of Islam which also advances societal control by other means. Let this author apply her damn Venn diagrams to those societies where islam has settled into predominance and see how big those aspects of Islam loom such as suppression of freedom of speech and conscience, rights of women and minorities, scientific and technological advancement, etc. Will the Venn diagrams tell her “thus not Islam then”? And that more muslims have nothing to do with more of these blights?
dlbrand says
In brief, just as RS stated, it is nothing but a “simplistic and silly article,” crafted for fools and the willingly gullible, with respect to Islam and the adherents to it.
ShariaStinks says
ISIS is following the teachings and examples of Muhammad. Anyone that has conducted even a little research can see that. Read the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira. Read the Muslim Brotherhood documents: “The Project” (12/1/82) and “An Explanatory Memorandum: On the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America” (5/22/91).
Robi says
NO ONE who has read the Qur’an and Hadith would EVER honestly call Islam a “religion of peace”. Too many in the U.S. government (forget “right” and “left” distinctions) are bought and paid for and continue to anesthetize the American public with lies. And too many of the American public are like sheep to the shearing, not wanting to disrupt their beer and football in order to learn the truth about those who are dedicated to destroying our country, our families, and our freedom.
Uncle Vladdi says
This libtarded beeyoitch posted the other day in the Ottawa Citizen (Canada’s capital city newsrag) the following lies and evasions:
“three questions (have) to be answered: what is in fact the relationship, if any, between Islam and terrorism; what do authorities believe is the relationship; and what do they say they believe.”
GOOD SO FAR. BUT THEN:
“the reality (is) that the practice of Islam, the tenets of the faith, its demands upon its followers and its place in society, differs markedly from country to country, if not from mosque to mosque.”
REALLY, SPORT? GOT ANY FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO BACK THOSE LIES UP?!
“Given this” (IMAGINARY) “diversity, it is simply not possible to state with finality what “Islam is…” or “Islam means…,” certainly not on such a vexed question as whether the religion itself has something to do with the willingness of some of its followers to commit mass murder on its behalf.”
NEVER HEARD OF “THE QUR’AN,” HAVE YOU, THEN?!
“It is not necessary to know whether there is “something about Islam” that explains Islamist terrorism. ”
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FIRST OF YOUR OPENING “THREE QUESTIONS!”?
AND, FINALLY, THE LIB GETS TO HIS “POINT:”
“The *one thing* that could be predicted to cause more Muslims, here and abroad, to believe that violence against the West was justified would be if they were to become convinced that, indeed, there is “a clash of civilizations,” that Islam was under attack, and that they themselves, as practitioners of the religion, were objects of suspicion and hostility. The phenomenon is often observed in other social groups that, rightly or wrongly, feel themselves besieged: they will close ranks”…
AND AT LAST, HE COMES TO HIS “CONCLUSION:”
“BY DARING TO NOTICE ISLAMIC TERRORISM IN PUBLIC, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER IS ACTUALLY CAUSING IT!”
http://unclevladdi.blogspot.ca/2015/02/islam-has-nothing-to-do-with-terrorism.html
ApolloSpeaks says
“EVERYONE IN ISIS DOESN’T BELIEVE THE SAME THING.” SAY’S
FORBES.
Forbes couldn’t be more wrong. The Islamic State is a ruthless fanatical killing machine for Allah and Islam united in the single aim of imperial restoration of the faith as a great world power respected and feared by all nations.In short, ISIS’ ideological unity is key to its military success.
http://www.apollospeaks.com