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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Saudi grand mufti calls for demolition of churches

Mar 18, 2015 11:02 am By Robert Spencer

muftiSaudi2This is on Muhammad’s orders: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.” (Sahih Muslim 19.4366)

“Saudi grand mufti calls for demolition of churches,” Times of Israel, March 18, 2015 (thanks to John)

Saudi Arabia’s top Muslim cleric called on Tuesday for the destruction of all churches in the Arabian Peninsula after legislators in the Gulf state of Kuwait moved to pass laws banning the construction of religious sites associated with Christianity.

Speaking to a delegation in Kuwait, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, who serves as the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, said the destruction of churches was absolutely necessary and is required by Islamic law, Arabic media reported.

Abdullah, who is considered to be the highest official of religious law in the Sunni Muslim kingdom, also serves as the head of the Supreme Council of Ulema (Islamic scholars) and of the Standing Committee for Scientific Research and Issuing of Fatwas.

Last month, Osama Al-Munawer, a Kuwaiti member of parliament, announced his plans to submit a draft law calling for the removal of all churches in the country, according to the Arabian Businesses news site. Al-Munawer later clarified that the law would only apply to new churches, while old ones would be allowed to stay erect.

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Filed Under: dhimmitude, Featured, Muslim persecution of Christians, Saudi Arabia, Sharia Tagged With: Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah


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Comments

  1. allan carr bryan says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 11:16 am

    If that’s the case, why don’t we pull ALL Mosques down in the UK, I know it sounds tit for tat, but if that’s the way these Savages want to play it, let all Muslim scumbag Ragheads go to the Arabian Peninsular to worship their false prophet. I for one will be glad to see the back of these animals. I am sick to the back teeth of hearing that ridiculous inane chant, which I refuse to type.

    • Don McKellar says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 11:22 am

      The only way that will happen (and it could and should) is for Islam to be stripped in its status as a religion and recognized for the organized crime and hate industry that it is. Most things under sharia law are criminal in modern advanced countries, and sharia=Islam, so all it takes is the will and the guts to strip Islam of its status and then begin the prosecutions under existing laws and eventually start bulldozing.

      • jayell says

        Mar 18, 2015 at 11:37 am

        Bearing in mind all the trouble that islam has caused, proscription seems quite reasonable. Then if the ignorant bigoted airheads in Saudi Arabia want to object, one tells them 1. It is none of their business and 2. To examine their own actions and see who is the biggest hypocrite.

      • awake says

        Mar 18, 2015 at 12:45 pm

        So, what are we waiting for?

      • Spot On says

        Mar 18, 2015 at 3:08 pm

        Notice how this Mufti has that 1940’s “Nazi” look. Muslims need to be handled like Nazis were.

        • David says

          Mar 18, 2015 at 9:05 pm

          Evil-looking begger, isn’t he!

    • Ernie says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 11:49 am

      Dear Allen , I agree ! Pulling down all mosques should not only apply to the U.K. ofcourse , but to the whole ‘ Dar ElHarb ‘ . It’s time to show our teeth , and bite back . No more dhimmitude , no more tolerance and/or acceptance of islam in the Western world . No more appeasing islam . We must fight it where we can and destroy it where we can . It’s pure evil .

    • cs says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 2:45 pm

      It will happen, who knows we will be alive to see it.

    • philipine234 says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 9:11 am

      Please get ur leaders to abandon the greed of petro-dollars. Also sale of ur WMDs in these countries to save ur jobs back home.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm

      It’s not about tit for tat or fairness or revenge; it’s about protecting our societies from terror attacks which we have good reason to suppose will become worse and worse in the coming decades, enabled by the increasing penetration and infiltration of Muslims into our societies.

      • gravenimage says

        Mar 20, 2015 at 1:40 pm

        *Very true*.

  2. Don McKellar says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 11:17 am

    And how exactly is interfaith dialogue moslem-style properly Islamic according to the Mufti, while the Islamic State is not Islamic? http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/islamic-state-destroys-churches-smashing-crosses-and-icons

    I sure wish we’d see one of these Islamic authorities explain the difference here so we can all figure this one out!

  3. Joginder Singh says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 11:35 am

    Maybe we in the civilised word could reciprocate by banning the use of saudi funding for mosque construction but that would require the UK/USA/EU/AUS/NZ to have non-dhimmi governments first

  4. Wellington says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 11:49 am

    Increasingly with each passing year I find myself more and more getting into “an eye-for-an-eye” and “a tooth-for-a-tooth” frame of mind (updated it would be “a mosque-for-a-church”). Western legal codes and constitutions still do not permit this but legal codes and even constitutions can change and Islam is so heinous, so egregious, so graceless, so non-reciprocating, so awful that such change may very well not only be desirable but eventually necessary.

    • bewick says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 12:34 pm

      Personally I’d go for 10 mosques for every church demolished. I think that something similar should happen when Christians are killed in Pakistan and elsewhere.

    • jayell says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 1:52 pm

      The ‘eye for eye’ and ‘tooth for tooth’ philosophy is the only one that muslims seem to understand, so being ‘nice’, ‘fair’ and ‘accommodating’ is read by them as weakness. Result? You give them an inch, so they then demand a foot, then a yard, then a mile.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 2:11 pm

      Wellington is correct about the legality of punitive measures based on just the feeling we have that we don’t like what Muslims are doing. But he’s wrong about the legality of what we can do to protect our citizens from getting mass murdered and our infrastructure from being destroyed.

      • Wellington says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 4:52 pm

        Don’t take up the legality “thing” with me, voegelinian. Rather, I’d love to see you take it up with the federal judiciary or, say, a very shrewd law professor like Alan Dershowitz. Do you really think you’d prevail? Sorry, but my money wouldn’t be on you.

        In short, under present American constitutional and statutory law, Islam is definitely a religion and protected under the First Amendment, as are Muslims in general. What is not protected is the violation of law by Muslims acting in the name of their faith when such action contravenes American law (e.g., honor killings). Your “sweeping approach,” even assuming it is what would be most efficacious and what should occur, simply is not an option under present American law. I am certain of this.

    • M S case says

      Mar 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm

      Find some western politicos who have the guts to pass laws to control this cult and maybe, just may things would change for the better but I just don’t think there are any out there willing to stick his neck out to do this. If you have a law on the books to reverse something, change something or add to then something might happen for the good of the people who want security and peace but getting politico’s to move on anything like that is almost impossible, Political correctness islamophobia etc. has them stymied. Our governments. officials Fear of being criticized and ostracized by their fellow politicos has stopped many a politician from doing what is right..

  5. mariam rove says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    Increasingly with each passing year…

    This is something that will work. Also brute force is a good answer as well. m

  6. Plamen says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:20 pm

    Reciprocity principle must be introduced.

    Mufty already insisted on demolishing all churches in the “muslim” peninsula, in 2013, 2012 and before.
    Year by year, they will push it ahead.
    And one day will materialize it.
    All the more, Kuwaitis and others follow same pattern.

    http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/06/17/all-churches-should-be-destroyed-says-grand-mufti-of-saudi-arabia/
    http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/03/countries/saudi-arabia/destroy-all-churches-in-the-arabian-peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-not-islam

  7. pongidae rex says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:27 pm

    Failed leadership and governance in the West is causing an irreversible slide into social chaos and even civil war within a generation. The only alternative is totalitarianism. The tragedy is that the ideology of human rights and multiculturalism has been hijacked by extremists who see in it as a weapon to destroy Western civilization by using its own legal and legislative infrastructure. In the absence of anything resembling competent leadership in the West, they are being proven correct.

    • Wellington says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 12:51 pm

      I submit, pongidae rex, that multiculturalism, like Islam, started out bad. It was never something good; it was from its origin a lie and an hypocrisy to boot, the lie being that all cultures are worhty of respect and essentially equal, which is an absurdity, for instance no culture ever produced on the island of New Guinea has remotely equaled the culture of ancient Greece or ancient China, and the hypocrisy in multiculturalism being the carte blanche extended to anyone wishing to tear down Western Civilization, the only civilization or culture that multiculturalism from the get-go has allowed any criticism of. I do agree though with your contention that the worst of peoples have come to utilize the monstrosity which is multiculturalism for their own nefarious, West-killing agenda.

      • Anglosaxon says

        Mar 18, 2015 at 3:34 pm

        If you exclude Islam multiculturalism has been a good thing and has worked amongst us Kuffars. Islam is not compatible let alone with anything else, it isnt even compatible with itself!!!

        • Wellington says

          Mar 18, 2015 at 4:52 pm

          I disagree, Anglosaxon, for the reasons I already stated. While exculpation of the Islamic world is quite arguably the greatest sin upon the monstrous head of multiculturalism, this monumental idiocy is still riddled with political correctness and has, most definitely, as part of its agenda denigration of Western Civilization, which I would contend is the single greatest civilization in all of history, giving to mankind, among other extraordinary things, philosophy, democracy, the scientific method, a musical tradition second to none, the most extraordinary technological development unequaled by any other civilization, and an emphasis on human rights and the dignity and worth of the individual like no other civilization remotely has achieved.

        • Anglosaxon says

          Mar 18, 2015 at 7:12 pm

          The thing is Wellington, if you look back through history alot of what was developed in the west is an extension of what was started in the east but I do agree with you that the western civilization is the greatest that mankind has known. However, multiculturalism doe not necessarily mean the diminution or marginalisation of western civilization. People of other cultures have come to live in our country and married their cultural tendencies and attributes to ours and have managed to achieve great things. The communities I’m referring to are the chinese and Indian (hindu/sikh) communities who are the least likely to be criminals and most likely to be educated and well to do middle class citizens. We can learn from them too and further enhance our civilization and culture. None of these communities seek special religious dispensation or privileges from the state. They have melted into our social and cultural fabric. Nowhere is this more profoundly proven than in the US where there are many different cultures by and large getting along except when it comes to the followers of the godforsaken cult. And besides we now live in a global village. That is why it is important for western governments to to stop pussy footing around and tackle this cancer called Islam as it will completely destroy and devour what we have.

        • Wellington says

          Mar 18, 2015 at 7:31 pm

          I think we’re fairly close here, Anglosaxon. I submit, however, that while often times (though not always) appreciation of non-Western cultures by Westerners is entirely appropriate, the “multicultural approach” is not the way to go since, from the outset, multiculturalism has been rooted in an anti-Western bias and a too-accepting approbation of non-Western cultures.

          Just as the term “feminism” should be rejected because of its inherent flaws and extremist views, all the while true equal rights for women is definitely a laudable goal, so should the term “multiculturalsim” be rejected because, just as with the term “feminism,” it has been sullied by its own extremism.

          After all, words matter. And some words are corrupting where ultimate truth is at stake. So, one can be for women’s rights without being a “feminist.” And so, a Westerner can extend their appreciation for other cultures without being “multicultural.”

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 12:06 am

          I think it depends on how you define multiculturalism, Wellington.

          If it just means the ability to potentially appreciate aspects of cultures other than your own, then it can be a very good thing—in fact, being so broad minded is a fairly intrinsic part of Western culture itself.

          If it means just appreciating, say, Thai food or Indonesian puppetry or Russian folk dancing, then this can be quite broadening. It can also be of use at times to appreciate positive *aspects* of other cultures, like the Japanese work ethic or Chinese respect for the elderly.

          But I quite agree—if by multiculturalism you mean the refusal to make value judgments and to falsely regard all cultures as equal, then this is madness.

          It also quite frequently results in practice in not a cultural agnosticism, but an active hatred of the West, and a romanticizing not just of other cultures, but often of the worst of them, like hard-core communism and Islam.

          Interestingly, I just read a good article on this very subject right before coming to this thread:

          http://capitalismmagazine.com/2015/03/why-netanyahu-and-israel-make-so-many-uncomfortable/

        • voegelinian says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 2:52 pm

          Wellington is correct about the Ism of Multiculturalism; but, until commenters Anglosaxon and gravenimage teased it out of the rather simplistic ravel of his argument, he was incorrect about the implied baby he was throwing out with the bathwater. As we further unravel this, in our pursuit of a healthy multicultural perspective and disentangling this from the monstrous tapestry which Multiculturalism has become (see my essay, Healthy Multiculturalism, and Unhealthy Multiculturalism — http://tiny.cc/6bdrvx), if we pay intelligent attention to the history of the matter, we find that the two are intimately convolved with each other — and that, in turn, provides us a clue as to how and why PC MC has become so dominant and mainstream throughout the entire West (for we need an explanation that does not reflect disastrously on our civilization and on our fellow Westerners). I.e., one of the things we realize is that, in fact, PC MC derives from good principles, central virtues from the two twin pillars of Western Civilization (Graeco-Roman & Judaeo-Christian); and we further realize the odd paradox that it is in the very health of the West that its vulnerability and potential to rot lie (after all, it’s a human enterprise, and human nature manifest the mystery of the tension of perfection-imperfection, and the best Society that is Man Writ Large will reflect this, just as the worst (Islam) reflects the darkness & depravity ever lurking in the heart of man).

          And Wellington is correct about the perhaps single most deleterious problem which multiculturalism pertaining to non-Islamic issues has generated: a morbidly excessive self-criticism of Western Civilization by the West. This becomes paradoxical when we begin to disentangle the multiculural tapestry, and we note that what is good about is has become bad, and part of the bad is in self-criticism; and so, we are involved the curious process of criticizing our culture of self-criticism while rescuing the baby of those good things that have caused us to become so morbidly self-criticism from the bathwater of that self-criticism we would throw out; and so forth.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm

          The above is a thoughtful exchange on an important issue. Thanks to all who weighed in.

      • Wellington says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 11:30 am

        Thanks for that link, gravenimage. It is a good article.

        BTW, I do treat the term “multiculturalism” as defined by the clueless who want to praise every culture equally (except Western culture of course which is so bad). This idiotic approach to dealing with culture is the opposiste of a true appreciation for at least certain aspects of at least certain cultures other than one’s own. This latter and healthy approach may not have a name but it’s a good thing. As for the term “multiculturalism,” it conjures up so many stupidities (some even dangerous) that I view it completely as a negative, just as I do the term, “feminism,” even though I am fully for equal rights for women.

        • voegelinian says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 3:33 pm

          The other problem I have with Wellington’s argument is that it is premised on a complaint of a putatively indiscriminate equivalency of all cultures (” the lie being that all cultures are worhty of respect and essentially equal, which is an absurdity”) — when in fact, the doctrine of Multiculturalism is not at bottom about all cultures being equal (that’s just glibly superficial window-dressing in its promotion), but rather about all non-Western cultures being better than Western culture. It’s not really relativism at all, when you look more closely; it’s a counter-absolutism. When Westerners indulge in it (and, ironically and perversely, they have become its most assiduous practitioners), it takes on a curious, almost grotesque paradox, which I palpated in my essay on Montaigne, which can be boiled down to the bolded phrase at the end of the following paragraph I extracted from that essay:

          He [Montaigne], like later Leftists, botches the paradox and thus, like a myopic cyclops, sees only one half of the paradox of the greatness of the West—incognizant of the grotesquely amusing fact that his own myopia is itself a symptom of the beneficient progress it cannot see! The Ego Peior thus tends to encode a perverse twisting of the concept of ethical standards, by which, to put it in a nutshell to bring out the perverse clarity at the heart of it: We are worse because we are better!

          http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2009/02/montaigne-godfather-of-pc-mc.html

        • Wellington says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 5:27 pm

          Actually, I agree with you, voegelinian, that the “all cultures are equal” crap (minus Western culture of course) is just a not very well thought out ploy by the multicultural set to, first and foremost, rip Western Civilization apart. Just as the greatest rogue allies of our age, the modern Left and Muslims, would eventualy go after each other once the greater menacing other, i.e., those who oppose Islamic supremacism, are done away with, so would the multicultural fools, assuming Western Civilization has gone into the grave, then begin arguments aplenty (some lethal most likely) with each other. No honor among thieves and all that.

          My reason for stating what I did about multiculturalists looking upon all cultures as equal (once again minus Western culture) is that I didn’t think it necessary to go to Step Two while merely describing Step One. You went to Step Two, though, and you are not incorrect for doing so. Again, voegelinian, I find us more in agreement than not, minus, of course, that “one big issue” about mass deportation.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 21, 2015 at 7:52 pm

          Thanks, Wellington.

      • Anglosaxon says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 2:56 pm

        This is true Wellington. Multiculturalism shouldn’t mean the host culture having to be second class or subordinate to the other cultures that it hosts. The fatal error was made when the state adopted it as a policy. Multiculturalism could have evolved by itself without state intervention or facilitation. But most importantly, the cultures that are a part of the project have to equally believe in it. And that is why I say that Islam cannot be a part of our society because they to not subscribe to this pluralistic philosophy. On the contrary they programmed to be rid of us if they are unable to impose this cult on us.

        • Wellington says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 6:26 pm

          In full agreement, Anglosaxon, that Islam is not a “player.” Rather, it is the “control-freak” among the major religions of the world. Just as a control-freak in one’s personal life has to eventually become persona non grata, whether a relative or an assumed friend, so should Islam be a permanent exile among people of goodwill who can tolerate differences.

          Islam cannot tolerate differences. Anyone asserting otherwise has to be a liar or an ignoramus. Thanks for the give and take, Anglosaxon.

  8. Mirren10 says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:51 pm

    What disturbs, and horrifies *me*, is that a vile sh*t hole like the KSA, and others like it, such as pakicrapistan, should be considered to be *allies* of the West.

    To touch pitch, is to be defiled.

    • Charli Main says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 4:15 pm

      The Kuwaitis have infiltrated Britain´s banking and economic structures big time. Like a malevolent python they and other Gulf Arab States have been tightening their strangle hold on Britain´s economy.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 12:10 am

      Agreed, Mirren. These are not our “allies”, and to pretend they are is not just foolish, but is morally compromising in the extreme.

  9. RonaldB says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    It’s rather interesting that the “Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding” is funded by a Saudi aristocrat. I don’t see how the professors and researchers there, like John Esposito, Jonathan Brown, John Voll, Yvaonne Hadded, Tamara Sohn, and the rest, can show their faces in social functions. Someone might ask them “How can your integrity allow you to be affiliated with such an obviously hypocritical institution?”

    On the bright side, it’s not like the good imam’s pronouncements will have any effect, since there have been no churches in the Saudi peninsula since Muhammad issued his insane ravings. There are no churches there to demolish. But, we appreciate the thought, grand mufti. It’s like Robert Spencer announcing that in the future, he will make no more contributions to CAIR. CAIR would probably not have to revise its budget in response.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 12:19 am

      There are no churches in Saudi Arabia itself, but depending on how broadly you define “peninsula”, there are. Syria, Iraq, and Kuwait come to mind—this specific incident, in fact, stems from a proposed law in Kuwait to prevent the building of churches.

      This last is of course mainstream Islam, where it is forbidden to build new churches or to repair existing ones.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 7:52 pm

      “Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding” is funded by a Saudi aristocrat. I don’t see how the professors and researchers there, like John Esposito, Jonathan Brown, John Voll, Yvaonne Hadded [sic], Tamara Sohn [sic], and the rest, can show their faces in social functions.

      Just look at the names; they provide one clue: “Yvonne Haddad” — a Muslim or a Middle Eastern Christian Dhimmi. “Tamar Cohen” — a self-hating Jew. And we know the infamous John Esposito, a Catholic numbskull, former President of MESA Nostra (as Hugh Fitzgerald aptly nicknamed the Middle East Studies Association which has had a stranglehold on Academic inquiry into Islam for decades, increasing perversely, of course, post-911), and promoter of the Edward Said school of Islamopologism.

      As for “social functions”, most of them throughout the West in nearly every area of life are peopled by PC MCs whose definition of polite society is necessarily pro-Islamic.

  10. Manuel Paleologus says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:56 pm

    All the muslim so called mosques whould be demolished. When we can build our churches in Saudi and all the other muslim countries without being persecuted, then, they can enjoy the freedom of expression in the western world.
    All our leaders are just a bunch of idiots who are destrying the western civilization.

  11. Fritz Kohlhaas says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    Getting rid of these scumbag Ayatollahs and Mullahs would be a beginning. As long as these creeps are in power there will be no peace!

  12. Alarmed Pig Farmer says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    The Grand Mufti there is doing Christians a favor. Not being able to concentrate their scant numbers in a single building decreases their exposure to a mass murder of them in a Jihad operation, which is inevitable because Jihad is commanded in the Holy Ko-Ran. So I have to agree with the Grand Mufti on this.

  13. Sam says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 3:05 pm

    Is there anything just a bit positive in this religion of peace?

    • scott Allen says

      Mar 18, 2015 at 3:49 pm

      Yes, there is…Omar’s in NYC…55th and Lexington has GREAT hummus. But I stopped going there because I now boycott any place that serves Halal. But in my opinion, that’s the best thing this wonderful (cough, cough) religion has brought us.

      • mariam rove says

        Mar 18, 2015 at 4:54 pm

        Hi Scott! I f you like great Hummus got to Colbeh. On 39th between 5th and 6th. It is a Glatt Kosher Iranian restaurant owned by Iranian Jews. I go there all the time. Not for Hummus but for the great Iranian food they have! They make it just like my mom!! M

      • gravenimage says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 12:31 am

        There’s a great Kosher restaurant here in Oakland called Holy Land that has excellent hummus. It is run by Israeli Jews.

      • Jerry says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 5:21 pm

        I love Humus and Tehina but prefer to make them myself, serve them accompanied by appropriate salads and gound red chilli or green jalapino sauce, with freshly charcoal grilled pork chops and on a hot summer day with ice cold beer or dry white wine.

        This makes is perfectly suitable for serving my peaceful secular friends including Arabs and Jews.

        An occasion like this tends to restore my belief that world peace may be possible after all, preferably after all mosques were demolished and all the Qur’ans available printed on absorbent paper delivered in pre-perforated tolls.

        • Jerry says

          Mar 19, 2015 at 5:28 pm

          In the country where I reside there are many “Indian” restaurants, some owned by Hindu Indians and others by Muslim Pakistanis.

          When unsure, before accepting a seat, I carefully examine the menu.

          They all have curries on the menu.

          I avoid those that offer Beef Curry and accept those that only have Chicken and Lamb.

          Thus I do not have to ask if they are Muslim and Hallal.

  14. Anglosaxon says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    Is anyone expecting to see mass demonstrations by Muslims around the world against such a Law? I bet if we even tried to introduce such a bill in parliament to ban erecting any more mosques, we would find ourselves in the midst of a bloody bombing campaign

  15. Barack Obama says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    WTF, he ain’t no muslim!

  16. Barack Obama says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 3:55 pm

    I’m tired of all these damn muslims impersonating muslims!

  17. More Ham Ed says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 10:11 pm

    The highest official of religious law in the Sunni Muslim kingdom so terribly “misunderstanding” Islam.

    Buy-a-rock just-air-bomb-ya is pretty sure he has nothing to do w/ Islam.

  18. David says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 10:36 pm

    He should read the edict of the Second Caliph in Jersalem which states the exact opposite. Hadiths are not authentic scripture and many were issued at a time of hostilities between Christians and Muslims and not on the order of Muhammad. I have read this edict and it gives protection to Christians. This guy is going against the teachings of Muhammad and counting on others ignorance that he won’t be caught out or questioned about it.

    This is the real truth……..

    Muhammad never fought against the Christians; on the contrary, He treated them kindly and gave them perfect freedom.

    A community of Christian people lived at Najrán and were under His care and protection. Muhammad said, “If anyone infringes their rights, I Myself will be his enemy, and in the presence of God I will bring a charge against him.” In the edicts which He promulgated it is clearly stated that the lives, properties and honor of the Christians and Jews are under the protection of God; and that if a Muhammadan married a Christian woman, the husband must not prevent her from going to church, nor oblige her to veil herself; and that if she died, he must place her remains in the care of the Christian clergy. Should the Christians desire to build a church, Islám ought to help them. In case of war between Islám and her enemies, the Christians should be exempted from the obligation of fighting, unless they desired of their own free will to do so in defense of Islám, because they were under its protection. But as a compensation for this immunity, they should pay yearly a small sum of money.

    In short, there are seven detailed edicts on these subjects, some copies of which are still extant at Jerusalem. This is an established fact and is not dependent on my affirmation. The edict of the second Caliph still exists in the custody of the orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and of this there is no doubt.

    “Nevertheless, after a certain time, and through the transgression of both the Muhammadans and the Christians, hatred and enmity arose between them. Beyond this fact, all the narrations of the Muslims, Christians and others are simply fabrications, which have their origin in fanaticism, or ignorance, or emanate from intense hostility.”

    Excerpt From: Abdul-Baha “Some Answered Questions.” Bahá’í eBooks

  19. David says

    Mar 18, 2015 at 11:17 pm

    The Edict of Najran was written by Muhammad Himself and witnessed. Furthermore subsequent Prophets confirm the authenticity of it.

    The madmen and lunatics going around now ordering the destruction of churches etc must be surrounded by unlearned people as they could never even think about destroying churches or harming Christians if they knew about this document.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 7:55 pm

      This “edict” David refers to is a forgery.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 21, 2015 at 1:13 am

      More whitewash and obfuscation from David:

      He should read the edict of the Second Caliph in Jersalem which states the exact opposite.
      …………………………….

      This is the infamous “Pact of Umar”. What does it have to say about Christians’ ability to build churches? Here you go:

      “We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks’ cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.”

      *This* is what David writes of so approvingly. Read the rest of this document, if you have not already done so—it makes dhimmitude—humiliating, threatened second-class citizenship—into law. That David not only condones this, but considers it an ideal, is just sickening.

      http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.asp

      More:

      Hadiths are not authentic scripture and many were issued at a time of hostilities between Christians and Muslims and not on the order of Muhammad. I have read this edict and it gives protection to Christians. This guy is going against the teachings of Muhammad and counting on others ignorance that he won’t be caught out or questioned about it.
      ………………………….

      David has claimed many times that the Hadith are not valid. But this is only true for him as a Baha’i—he has admitted that no *Muslim* believes this. But even if we were to discount the Hadith, the Qur’an itself is utterly savage to Infidels.

      And returning to the Pact of Umar, the “protection” it offers to Christians is that of the protection racket—that if Christians are subservient enough, then they *might* be allowed to live unmolested, but if any tittle of the pact is violated by any member of the community, then it is fair game to attack and murder any Christian.

      And this is not just theoretical—we see this treatment of Christians all over Dar-al-Islam. And the repulsive David *approves* of this. *Ugh*.

      More:

      This is the real truth……..

      Muhammad never fought against the Christians; on the contrary, He treated them kindly and gave them perfect freedom.
      ………………………….

      “Perfect freedom” to live as an oppressed, threatened dhimmi, subject to the crushing Jizya tax. Wonderful…sarc/off

      More:

      A community of Christian people lived at Najrán and were under His care and protection. Muhammad said, “If anyone infringes their rights, I Myself will be his enemy, and in the presence of God I will bring a charge against him.” In the edicts which He promulgated it is clearly stated that the lives, properties and honor of the Christians and Jews are under the protection of God…

      In short, there are seven detailed edicts on these subjects, some copies of which are still extant at Jerusalem. This is an established fact and is not dependent on my affirmation. The edict of the second Caliph still exists in the custody of the orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and of this there is no doubt.
      ………………………….

      Actually, this is a likely forgery. But it hardly matters—David himself goes on to say:

      “Nevertheless, after a certain time, and through the transgression of both the Muhammadans and the Christians, hatred and enmity arose between them. Beyond this fact, all the narrations of the Muslims, Christians and others are simply fabrications, which have their origin in fanaticism, or ignorance, or emanate from intense hostility.”

      Excerpt From: Abdul-Baha “Some Answered Questions.” Bahá’í eBooks
      ……………………………

      In other words, the meretricious “Prophet” changed his mind when he gained sufficient power, and violated that supposedly exemplary treaty:

      “The Prophet sent his military commander, Khalid ibn al-Walid, to the tribe of Al-Harith ibn Ka’b, in Najran. The Prophet ordered Khalid to call on those people to accept Islam and to give them a period of three days to make up their minds.

      “If they accepted Islam, Khalid was to accept that from them. If they refused, he would fight them. When Khalid arrived there, he sent his emissaries all over the place, calling on the people to accept Islam. They did so without much hesitation…”

      This is not from some “Islamophobic” source, but from the Da’wa site OnIslam:

      http://www.onislam.net/english/reading-islam/about-muhammad/his-life/452128-prophet-muhammad-meets-najran-christians.html

      Umar expelled the Christians who would not convert, who fled to Iraq as refugees.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_views_on_Christians#The_Christians_of_Najran_Interaction_with_Muhammad_during_the_Medina_Period

      More:

      The Edict of Najran was written by Muhammad Himself and witnessed. Furthermore subsequent Prophets confirm the authenticity of it.
      …………………………….

      “Subsequent Prophets”—in other words, Baha’is. The fact is that Islam completely rejects the idea of any prophet after Muhammed, whom they regard as the “seal of the prophets”.

      It is just on this basis that Muslim are oppressing and massacring David’s own coreligionists in places like Iran.

      But what does it matter, in any case? As he himself confirms, the treaty was soon violated.

      More:

      The madmen and lunatics going around now ordering the destruction of churches etc must be surrounded by unlearned people as they could never even think about destroying churches or harming Christians if they knew about this document.
      …………………………….

      Here’s why David hopes you go along with him and reject the Hadiths:

      Narrated ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab:
      That the Messenger of Allah (saws) said: “If I live – if Allah wills – I will expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula.”

      *That* is what the Mufti is making reference to.

      But even if we follow David’s own bullsh*t, he would have you believe that preventing the building of new churches and the repair of existing ones—which is normative Islam and clearly results in the eventual disintegration of all churches—is enlightened and somehow counters the edicts of this Mufti.

      A final point: that David—a member of a tiny sect that is hated and despised by Muslims—regards the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia as “unlearned” about Islam is laughable, as well.

  20. Godfrey Johnson says

    Mar 19, 2015 at 4:53 am

    Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Hmmm, it’s arabica. No surprises there; all our coffee is coffee arabica.

  21. Peggy says

    Mar 19, 2015 at 7:18 am

    gravenimage says

    March 18, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    Justin is not trying to “poke a little fun” at America—he has said many times that he wants to see our utter destruction.
    ===================
    I have read many comments by Justin and he is being sarcastic. He hates Islam, that much is obvious and sarcasm is his way of releasing anger at US government and their foreign policy.
    If you don’t recognize sarcasm when you see it, then that is your problem but please stop accusing people of things when clearly you are wrong.

    • Mirren10 says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 10:29 am

      ”If you don’t recognize sarcasm when you see it, then that is your problem but please stop accusing people of things when clearly you are wrong”

      gravenimage is not wrong. You are.

      Suggestion; put ‘justin’s’ name into the JW search engine. Read his comments. Amongst his many vicious and vitriolic outbursts, against the West, against gays, against democracy, you will find one where he states we should all be living under a **theocratic dictatorship**, where all gays would be murdered. If you *really* think that’s just sarcasm, you should think again.

      • Ernie says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 7:32 pm

        Thank you Mirren10 !

    • Wellington says

      Mar 19, 2015 at 6:16 pm

      Echoing Mirren and gravenimage, Peggy, you have Justin wrong, not them. Justin, whom I believe to be someone directly or ancestrally from the Balkans, despises the West, especially America. He’s probably of Serbian origin, but no matter, the man is, how should I put it, in “full-Putin and Orthodox mode,” that is to say an Eastern Christian who, replete with paranoia, xenophobia and ignorance, hates the West. To be sure, those of Justin’s stripe have legitimate grievances against the West, for instance the backing of an independent Kosovo (which I personally opposed), but he is blinded by his hatred and has demonstrated time and time again no capacity for any kind of removed or objective judgment.

      • Peggy says

        Mar 19, 2015 at 11:52 pm

        I see. So now you are saying that Serbs are your enemy because they are Orthodox and approve of Syrian Christians and Assad.
        Well, Assad has actually saved many Christians in Syria from Islamists. Did you know that? What do you see wrong with that? Would you like the Muslim Brotherhood to take hold or would you like people like Assad to be in charge there?
        Having warm feelings towards Russia is so much better than What Obama wants you do have. So when you take all that into account I agree with Justin. I think a strong America means destruction to Christianity and the Jewish state of Israel because no matter how people feel (and I know that most Americans are decent people) your president will destroy the world. A weak America means Christians around the world are safer. That is because a strong America is a powerful weapon your Muslim president has to destroy us all.
        I want America to be strong and democratic. I really do, but it scares the Hell out of me now for that very reason.
        Maybe, just maybe, Justin has the same fears but has been unable to express it this way.
        On the other hand, maybe he is just so very angry (fully justified because of what the US did to his country) and wants some what he thinks is justice.
        If we all saw things from another point of view we would not be so angry at each other and try to build bridges instead of holding on to grudges or some warped sense of offense.

        • Wellington says

          Mar 20, 2015 at 10:20 am

          No, I am not saying that Serbs are my enemy. I was merely trying to describe a very typical Eastern Orthodox polnt of view, which often comes with antipathy towards the West (some, but certainly not all of it, justified).

          As for Serbia per se, I think it imperative to comphrehend that the breakup of Yugoslavie occurred in two stages. The first was from 1991-1999 when four wars in eight years occurred, slaughters were all over the place, no one was blameless and the rest of Europe looked on with horror at the massive instability being created, replete with the possibility of refugees all over the place (near-by nations like Hungary and Austria were particularly worried. The US told Europe this was their problem but Europe proved impotent again and finally, in order to end this massive instability, the US bombed Belgrade. This was regrettable but necessary I would argue and it did put a stop to the out-of-control instability (I assure anyone that if the US had not engaged in the bombing it would have been criticized for being heartless about all the killings going on and so it was a lose/lose situation for the US).

          The second stage has been from 1999 onwards, when killings have gone on but not on the massive scale as before and Europe as a whole became relieved. I do wish more people would look at the whole picture. Do Serbs have legitimate grievances? Yes, they do but neither are they mere innocent victims. I for one did not support an independent Kososvo. But when nations fall apart, shit happens and this is what has occurred in the sorry Balkans, the strangest part of all of Europe.

          I see Justin who simply despises the West, especially the US, for what it did in the Balkans but the ultimate blame for what has occurred since 1991 lies with the Balkan players themselves, none of whom have clean hands, including the Serbs.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 21, 2015 at 8:36 pm

          Peggy wrote:

          I think a strong America means destruction to Christianity and the Jewish state of Israel because no matter how people feel (and I know that most Americans are decent people) your president will destroy the world. A weak America means Christians around the world are safer…
          ………………………….

          I had assumed that Peggy simply hadn’t seen many of Justin’s comments—now it appears that she had, and simply agrees with them.

          I agree that Obama’s policies—especially his appeasement of Islam—have been disastrous. But Obama is a lame duck, and is on his way out. The idea that America—which is solidly Christian and has wide support for Israel, is it itself the biggest threat to Jews and Christians is just mistaken.

          As for a weak—or destroyed—America making things safer for Christians around the world, I would not count on it.

          Muslim hate the free West, and have a special animus for the United States. If America were destroyed, Muslims would feel much emboldened, and that makes no one safer.

      • gravenimage says

        Mar 22, 2015 at 1:02 pm

        Thanks, Mirren and Wellington. Excellent comments.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 21, 2015 at 1:10 pm

      Peggy, I am not “accusing” Justin of eagerly anticipating the destruction of the West—actually, he says it quite openly:

      “May God’s fiery judgment fell on the West for their evil deeds against Christians in those countries!”

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/islamic-state-destroys-fourth-century-mar-benham-monastery-in-iraq/comment-page-1#comment-1212859

      “Pray for the severe judgment of the Anti-Christian West who love muslims and “gays” but hate Christians…”

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/islamic-state-destroys-fourth-century-mar-benham-monastery-in-iraq/comment-page-1#comment-1212980

      Here is his characterization of Americans:

      “Christ-hating, islamo-phylic Western fagheads!”

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/islamic-state-destroys-fourth-century-mar-benham-monastery-in-iraq/comment-page-1#comment-1212999

      Yet more:

      “The most wicked, the most malicious and the stupidest thing is that America and the West are allied with and are backing these brutal and inhuman followers of islam…The overwhelming majority of Western societies are stupidly, materialistic and ignorant and they profoundly hate Christians but love muslims and “gays”. May God respond and punish severely to the allied forces of evil who are in total agreement…”

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/01/msnbc-blurs-charlie-hebdo-cover-during-interview-with-contributor

      “In Saudi Arabia today, which the greatest Arabic ally of America, one could be executed by beheading if they publicly display a Christian Cross. And yet Displaying and Venerating the Holy Cross is the only tool that can defeat islamo-fascists and their Western secular fascist allies…”

      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/islamic-state-destroys-churches-smashing-crosses-and-icons/comment-page-1#comment-1211583

      None of the above is meant sarcastically—Justin means it quite literally. And notice that in all his calls for the destruction of the West, he only actually mentions the defeat of islamo-fascists *once*. In fact,he spends more time condemning his fellow non-Orthodox Christians for supposedly failing to properly venerate the cross—as well, of course, as attacking non-violent gay people—than he does opposing ravening Jihadists.

      There are many, many more examples.

  22. BC says

    Mar 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    For every church that is demolished by Islam whether it is Boko Haram, IS, Saudi Arabia whatever, on Mosque should be destroyed in the West. Then they will get the message.

  23. Michael says

    Mar 19, 2015 at 7:48 pm

    Don’t you all see what the root of the issue is here???
    It’s religion, period!!! All religions!!
    Why stop at churches and mosques?? Time for all religions to be abolished!! Root of all evil!!
    Open your minds! Science trumps religion!
    What the eff is wrong with people when they had to sit and listen to religious freaks around the world, wearing some sort of dress and shouting out theological demands to society???
    Religion is for the peasants and illiterates…..
    Abolish all reigions……
    Live by the 10 commandments…. Religion neutral….

    • jayell says

      Mar 21, 2015 at 10:22 am

      No, it’s rooted in envy, admittedly fuelled by Islamic arrogance. They’re the big-shot muslims with the oil and the money, therefore they can throw their weight around. We see it in London when they blithely ignore the traffic (and any other) laws. But secretly they must realise that they would still be living in tents and herding their goats if we weren’t buying their ‘black gold’ and giving them all their state-of-the-art 21st. century gizmos (because they couldn’t even invent the wheel let alone organise a well-oiled (sic) festivity in a brewery). Quite pathetic, really.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 21, 2015 at 1:21 pm

      Michael, agnostics and atheists may live perfectly free lives in majority Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist countries—would that that were true of Muslim countries.

      You need not believe in any religion or even like any religion to see that they are not all the same.

      This false moral equivalence is just silly.

  24. Dee says

    Mar 20, 2015 at 5:29 am

    Someone stick a lemon in his face and cheer him up .. rancid old c*#$.

  25. thomas pellow says

    Mar 20, 2015 at 5:52 am

    More on Islamic ‘values’ in Saudi Arabia-

    “Saudi Arabian regime ends visas for Swedish nationals in retaliation for human rights criticism”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabian-regime-ends-visas-for-swedish-nationals-in-retaliation-for-human-rights-criticism-10121708.html

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