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Jihad Watch

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

The real meaning of “Allahu akbar” — on The Glazov Gang

Mar 29, 2015 7:59 am By Robert Spencer

In this episode of the world’s challenging counter-jihad chatfest, the fearless, peerless host interviews the nonpareil Daniel Greenfield, discussing what these peaceful screams of “Allahu akbar” that we keep hearing from misunderstander of Islam as they commit acts that have nothing to do with Islam are all about.

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Filed Under: Jihad doctrine Tagged With: Allahu akbar


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Comments

  1. mortimer says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 9:12 am

    Allahu Akbar: ‘allah is greater’…(greater than what) is a supremacist war cry created to terrify political enemies. It is as much a supremacist war cry as ‘Heil Hitler’.

    The original Ka’aba (sacred cube/womb) of Islam was based around the sacred stone of Allat Chabar (Mighty Venus/Aphrodite). Her votaries presumably shouted her name and epithet. ‘Allah’ the male deity became greater than the female, veiled and then eclipsed her entirely…the role of women in Islam.

    • Mirren10 says

      Mar 29, 2015 at 10:40 am

      ”The original Ka’aba (sacred cube/womb) of Islam was based around the sacred stone of Allat Chabar (Mighty Venus/Aphrodite). ”

      That explains why it looks like a vagina ! 🙂

      http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Kaaba+Blackstone&FORM=IRTRRL#view=detail&id=DBD11E620D4AC542F1872EA38693565C58A6D08D&selectedIndex=1

      • ECAW says

        Mar 29, 2015 at 2:25 pm

        Is that Bugs Bunny I see being born?

        • mortimer says

          Mar 29, 2015 at 3:16 pm

          No. The black stone in the silver vulva is the new moon being born out of Venus.

          The crescent moon of Islam was originally the symbol of the 28 day female cycle. Women practiced a purification ritual in which they ‘fingered’ the (originally) white stone thereby turning it black.

          Allat was one of the wives of Dhu Shara (aka as Qos-Allah). Qos was the god of war (Mars). The great-grandfather of Mohammed was Qusai (a worshiper of Qos).

          Islam is a war cult that absorbed and veiled the original fertility cult.

        • Mirren10 says

          Mar 30, 2015 at 5:18 am

          ”Is that Bugs Bunny I see being born?”

          Nice one ! 🙂

      • Fancesca says

        Mar 29, 2015 at 4:20 pm

        The Black Stone is a meterorite.

  2. Caroline says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 10:04 am

    An informative and terrifying piece. Our left wing in Britain are the same, they think we need to be punished for colonialism, even if it results in our own destruction. We need to defeat the left as much as we need to defeat the Islamists, both are our enemy.

    • mortimer says

      Mar 29, 2015 at 3:18 pm

      The Left is unaware that Islam is one of the greatest COLONIALIST FORCES IN HISTORY.

      Islamic parties have suppressed the socialist parties in Muslim-majority countries.

  3. rev g says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 10:07 am

    And here I always thought it meant “shoot me now”!

  4. bobm says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 11:31 am

    the “collective’…. resistance is futile…. remember the cube ships of the borg.??..the borg queen … her head being removable ..

  5. Avspatti says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    It means Allah is greater than any other god.

  6. Francesca says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    It means that Allah is greater than any other god.

    • RG says

      Mar 29, 2015 at 7:34 pm

      How about this as a footnote to your post – It means the ‘allah-moon-god’ is greater than the Real True and Living God of the Jews and the Christians (Who actually really happens to be the Almighty eternal One)!

      Remember, muslims are all about supremacy. There’s no way those “infidel” Jews and Christians can one-up the “all-knowing” followers of “the ideal model of a man” (mo-ham-head)! Let’s never forget that the Jews and Christians are actually “pigs and apes” so it just follows suit that their Deity must be an inferior or lesser version of the “real thing”!

      Whew! I’d say that just ’bout sums that one up!

  7. RonaldB says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    I really appreciate the interview with Jeff Greenfield. He is thoroughly informed, articulate, and rational. He also has an integrated perspective that makes sense of a lot of things that don’t seem to make sense.

    I have a few comments.

    1) Islam as collective. I think Islam emphasizes the collective and denigrates the individual even more than Jeff specifies. They destroy the identity of individual women with the burkas and niquabs, but also do as much to hide the individuality of males as possible by requiring a beard, which covers the face. Islam also violently forbids the creative of art, music, literature, philosophy…anything used to express the individual mind.

    What is most insidious, Islam forbids a companionate relationship between the sexes, and strongly encourages the marriage of first cousins. Scientifically, this results in a degradation of the intelligence and the gene pool, making the mass of Islamic drones not only unwilling, but unable, to comprehend any criticism of Islam at all. Further, the genetic degradation results in a weakening of the mechanisms of self-control, and makes a violent reaction to any deviation from Islam almost inevitable.

    2) Obama unquestionably consciously erodes the position of the United States, but I don’t think the contributions of George Bush 43 (the second) should be overlooked: Bush stuffed the government halls of power with Muslim Brotherhood agents, and destroyed the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, while doing NO investigation into any realistic replacement. With the worst intentions in the world, Obama still inherited Bush’s mess.

    3) I understand what Greenfield means about Reform Judaism being captured by the left and hollowed out. My background is in Reform Judaism, and though I’m now an atheist and practice no religion, I look at the website of the Union for Reform Judaism occasionally, and never fail to get angry at the mindless presentation of consistently far-left doctrine as religious mandate. These are people who gave me a pretty good experience growing up.

    Reform Judaism bears watching, as they support Israel fully as a state, but in the process of doing so, are alienated from their natural allies, the far left. I think it would be worthwhile for Orthodox supporters of Israel like Greenfield to open relations with Reform Judaism. I realize his theological positions that Reform Judaism is unlike traditional Judaism, but perhaps a limited alliance for the sake of bolstering Israel would be productive for both sides.

    I’ll have to look at Greenfields blog. If it is as informative as his interview, I might begin reading it regularly.

    • somehistory says

      Mar 29, 2015 at 2:57 pm

      Daniel writes like no other today. One can learn a lot from him. I read his articles,but he writes more than what I have time to read, so am sure I miss a lot of important points. Sometimes, I have to play catch-up.
      This is encouragement to any who have not been reading his blog to do so if time permits.

      • mortimer says

        Mar 29, 2015 at 3:23 pm

        Greenfield is one of the top 5 writers about jihad and political Islam. His analyses are brilliantly insightful.

  8. somehistory says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 2:50 pm

    Adam and Eve were told that they could eat of *every tree in the garden* except for one; they would die if they ate of the one particular fruit. A warning from their Creator so they could keep living.
    The devil spoke to Eve and convinced her to eat of the forbidden fruit…knowing that she would die. The devil also probably knew that she would willingly tell Adam how the fruit tasted so he would eat also and when Adam found out what she had done, he did indeed join her…in death.

    When Jesus was on the mountain alone, the devil came and told Jesus that if he would hurl himself off the cliff, He would be rescued by the angels…knowing that if Christ did as the devil told Him to, He would be going against what God wanted Him to do. Jesus refused to go the way of death at the devil’s urging. And He also refused satan and the devil’s promise to give Him the *world* if He would only worship the serpent.
    The devil succeeded with Adam and Eve; he failed with Jesus Christ.
    satan is now very successful with those who willingly seek death…in order to *gain the world* of sex and wine and fulfilling their lustful desires. These worshippers seek death…because that is what the devil encourages them to do thru writings falsely attributed to God.
    The devil lied about God, our Creator, in the Garden and he is continuing to lie…all in order to cause death.

    • duh_swami says

      Mar 29, 2015 at 3:57 pm

      You really believe that? Interesting…

      • cjk says

        Mar 29, 2015 at 4:12 pm

        He’s not the only one who believes it. I am so tired of my beliefs being disparaged by people who hold to beliefs that can be shown to need even greater faith to swallow.
        Guessing you believe in evolution? A theory which is obviously false and disproven to any reasonable and honest person by the fossil record.
        Nah, just follow the unthinking herd and you won’t be criticized.

      • somehistory says

        Mar 29, 2015 at 5:33 pm

        Yes. Jesus Christ believed it. i do my best to live as Christ lived.
        (See Matthew 4 for His conversation with the devil; the Sermon on the Mount, Matt: 5-7 for what He said about how things are supposed to be and Matthew 19:4 about “in the beginning…He created them, male and female…”)

        • PatnCats says

          Mar 30, 2015 at 7:20 pm

          Amen Brother! Our church motto, “To Care as Jesus Cares.” What could be better? AND we do try. AND by the way, like you Mr. Somehistory, I do get tired of being on an islamic discussion and then people feel so great about start the bashing of Christianity and not knowing a darned thing about our beliefs – and they celebrate Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and FORGOT the celebration of the birth of Our Savior (AND we know it aint’ 25 December by the way) and the Crucification and Ressurection of Jesus Christ. NOW, I’d like if these folks can NOT bash us. As they are “””Non-Believers”’ per the koran, they are to be killed immediately and not given a chance to “Pay the Jidza tax and feel themselves submitted’ as we Christians and Jews are. So given that, you’d think they would be supporting ALL of US AGAINSTthe islamic murder rant in the koran – Kill the Jews, Kill the Christians (unless we pay) then Kill the non-beleivers, or the infidels, and then kill the gay folks, by the way. SO WE ALL NEED TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER and NOT BASH AT EACH OTHER HERE on such webpages. Geez. I agree and we shall agree to: SUPPORT NOT CONDEMN EACH OTHER! Yay! Join hands to defeat ISLAM !!! No American bashing either….hugs to all.

    • xxxChurch100 says

      Mar 30, 2015 at 8:56 pm

      Dear somehistory , you accurately critiqued what happened in the Garden of Eden ,
      ………… [ Eden means pleasure] ..

      Unfortunately in the ” Church ” today this account , Genesis 1- 3 is dismissed and seldom preached on, it is seen as poetry , just a story , and not the foundation block on which the whole redemptive covenant is based upon , Genesis 3 is the origin of ” INFINITE GRACE “..

      I have always considered that :

      God commands Adam ” You are FREE to eat from EVERY tree in the garden , except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .”

      Satan’s accusation , asked to Eve is aimed at the very character of God .
      Satan …. “Did God say you shall not eat from EVERY tree in the garden ? ”

      If God had indeed said ,” all the tree are off limits ” Adam and Eve would have staved to death by virtue of their Creator !!! I don’t think so .

      Satan then continues with his deception ” You will not surely die ” …. Gods’ warning was exactly the opposite, interestingly God didn’t say He would [personally ] kill them … rather He said ” You will surely die ”

      It is a puzzle that many ” Christian ” pay so little attention on Genesis 1 – 11 or explain it
      off as allegory ..

      Jesus certainly believed and references Genesis 1-11 as historical narrative .

      Regards

  9. duh@swami says

    Mar 29, 2015 at 4:00 pm

    Good interview…Thanks for posting it…

  10. amarendra derhgawen says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 1:51 am

    Islam was founded on the Grand Edifice of pre-Islam Arabia.CultIslam plagiarized from different Faiths including Pagan Faiths,Zionism,Budhhism,Sanatan Hinduism etc and topped up with idiosyncratic hallucinations of One Ordinary Misogynist Ambitious Old Man..

  11. Elisheva says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 6:24 am

    Daniel Greenfield and Jamie Glasov are awesome. This is a fabulous interview. His observation that Islam ideology is very very dangerous.

  12. Brother Mark:) says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 11:36 am

    “Christians don’t consider themselves superior” That’s SO stupidly funny!

    That must be why they believe that they’re the only one’s (like the Muslim) who will be all buddy buddy with “God” in paradise someday, while the rest are either snuffed out like a cigarette or tortured horrifically for all of eternally (depending on what brand of Christianity they subscribe to) because they presumably got the question wrong and weren’t in the car with team “man God” Jesus.

    Of course, I’m sure we all know that Christians have never engaged in any religious wars….right?
    That’s not “real” Christianity you say?
    What a coincidence! The Muslim apologist will very often tell you the SAME thing when you have this same type of conversation about Islam!
    The only reason why Christians aren’t usually killing people in much the same way as the Muslim Jihadist if not worse, is because after a long and hard fought march toward progress, Christianity today has finally come to accept the separation of church and state. Don’t fool yourselves into thinking that if we don’t keep a careful eye, that none of it can ever happen again, because Christianity IS a religion with it’s own doctrine of moral supremacy.
    Those reading this blog can kid themselves if they want.

    Here, have a serving of something called reality:

    http://talktruthful.com/2012/11/02/93/

    While you’re at it, have a great day as well.

    Brother Mark:)
    http://www.talktruthful.com

    • rev g says

      Mar 30, 2015 at 3:18 pm

      So you are claiming that if Christians engaged in behavior contrary to the tenets of their religion, and not in line with the example set by the religion’s namesake….somehow that is the same as muslims murderous actions that are in keeping with their religious tenets and the example of their founder/prophet?
      Oh Brother, please!
      Reality seems to elude your grasp.

    • citycat says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 11:06 am

      God is an indefinable variable

      The religions have an untouchable top man.

      The whole thing is powered by the energy of the followers

      The energy of the followers is tuned by certain contents of the religion, morals, rights, rites, books, songs, etc etc

      Now, is there a top Human on Earth?

  13. CorHolio says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 12:28 pm

    “The only reason why Christians aren’t usually killing people in much the same way as the Muslim Jihadist if not worse, is because after a long and hard fought march toward progress, Christianity today has finally come to accept the separation of church and state.”

    The ONLY reason? You don’t think the fact that Jesus preached absolute non-violence, forgiveness and brotherhood, and taught his followers to separate church and state “Render unto Caesar.” – while Muhammad did the absolute OPPOSITE – had anything to do with it?

    I think you forget that – regardless of whether you or I consider Christ to have been divine – our Western laws and ethics are firmly rooted in his philosophy, while those of the Islamic world are grounded in the life and teachings of Muhammad. Christianity “evolved” this way because of the pressure placed on it by the example of its central figure. With Islam, this pressure goes in the opposite direction.

    Christians “finally” came to accept separating of church and state because that is what Jesus taught them to do.

  14. xxxChurch100 says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 5:20 pm

    At 16 minutes : The topic of a Nuclear powered Iran is canvased , and is seemingly sanctioned by the
    Obama Whitehouse … Obama is very mixed on this and many other issues …. I wished they had spoken on whether Michelle Obama the “first lady” may have born as a male , as many people now claim ?

    • rev g says

      Mar 30, 2015 at 8:56 pm

      Such banter is humorous, but faking the birth of the 2 daughters would be extremely difficult.

  15. Brother Mark:) says

    Mar 30, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    @ rev g and CorHolio…

    Your responses of self denial are predictable.

    As can be expected, none of you seemed to have checked out that link that was given.

    Christianity is about A LOT more than a few nice things that Jesus did.
    If not, your Christian bible would be a great deal shorter than it is.

    In Matt.5:17 Jesus speaks of not coming to destroy the law but to UPHOLD it. He was speaking of the law Moses. There was NO New Testament around during the time of Jesus. You don’t get to dismiss the OLD Testament at your convenient whim. I can understand though, how it must be tempting to want to do so, so that it all fits just the way you would like.

    “Christians “finally” came to accept separating of church and state because that is what Jesus taught them to do.”

    REALLY? Then why not about 2000 Years earlier?

    While we’re at it, how about the book of Acts Chapter 5?
    That’s where the “holy” spirit murders a husband and wife for trying to deceive it because they sold some land and didn’t want to cough it all up to the apostle Peter!
    When I hear the usual excuse for this, it sounds like the EXACT same type of justification that ISIS or Boko Haram and their type will use when cutting off someone’s head or tossing them from the roof top of a building.
    “Who are YOU to challenge the righteous judgement of God” etc.
    as they point to some biblical scripture, usually in the Old Testament.

    Reality seems to have eluded MY
    grasp?

    That is SO funny!

    Here it is AGAIN:

    http://talktruthful.com/2012/11/02/93/

    Brother Mark:)
    http://www.talktruthful.com

    • CornHolio says

      Mar 30, 2015 at 9:13 pm

      You can’t see the difference between GOD passing judgment on someone and killing them, and some guy from Boko Haram killing someone? Really? Does your ridiculous moral equivalence reflex extend that far into the surreal?

      And if your think that Jesus didn’t come to make some changes, you must have missed reading a hell of a lot, especially the constant complaints from the Jewish leaders about all the CHANGES he was making, like overturning the stoning capital punishment penalty for adulterers.
      What exactly do you believe was the point of Jesus’s mission, if he was to make no changes? Was he just sitting on hilltops talking about the weather?

    • rev g says

      Mar 30, 2015 at 9:25 pm

      Yes reality has eluded you. Christianity is a new testament religion, and Christ is the pinnacle.
      The OT, had you delved into it instead of a website, is not by any means the equal of islamic texts in regard to violence and sadism. Perhaps your comprehension abilities lack depth?
      Of course, Islam lays claim to both testaments, calls them flawed, and then goes on to set examples of barbarity.
      I guess reasoningg ability got left in reality, a bit outside of your reach.

  16. Brother Mark:) says

    Mar 31, 2015 at 1:33 am

    @rev g and CornHolio…

    “You can’t see the difference between GOD passing judgment on someone and killing them, and some guy from Boko Haram killing someone? Really? Does your ridiculous moral equivalence reflex extend that far into the surreal?”

    This is actually a good example of the point that I was making.
    Yes, of course Jesus is written of as departing from the law of Moses to show compassion as you have made mention of, and this is in contradiction to Matt. 5:17. The point though, is how many Christians wish to ignore the Old Testament when it suits them, but when they see something that they believe to be useful, it’s then time to remember the Old Testament again! Throughout the ENTIRE Christian bible there are examples of the Christian God behaving with such sadistic cruelty.
    In ANY other context, many of the things that are often attributed to “God” in the Christian bible would be understandably seen as the most sadistic and downright morally disgusting of acts.
    However, once credit is given to “God” it all becomes the absolute epitome of all that is pure and good!
    This is the critical moment when both the Christian and Muslim play the same hand of justification.
    In the Old Testament book of Exodus Chapter 32 Moses has about 3000 killed for wanting to believe as Pagans, and not following his “righteous” God! That was about as many that died on 9/11 in New York City, and with the same sick and morally twisted type of justification in mind.
    What difference is there in principle between THAT and Mohammad wanting to have infidels and apostates killed? NONE.

    Muhammad was actually a very faithful student of the Abrahmic prophetic prototype, and Christians are in general, in denial about that unsightly fact.
    The best teacher teaches by example, and the Christian can either choose how to follow the example of Jesus as someone who shows compassion or that of the “holy” spirit who kills two people for trying to deceive it. Of course, if you believe in the Trinity as most Christian’s do, then there isn’t much of a distinction in the first place.
    How much sadistic behavior is in your Christian bible, compared to compassion?

    Both Christian and Muslim can point to scriptures of compassion, the Muslim examples have been abrogated and the Christian ones the Christian would like to remember while dismissing the cruel and sadistic ones as the will of “God” that shouldn’t be questioned.
    Parents know how to teach their children that might doesn’t make right. How sad that the Christian and Muslim mind both have been indoctrinated not to value this simple child’s lesson.

    Thank you both for the worthwhile dialog.

    I wish you all a peaceful life.

    Brother Mark:)
    http://www.talktruthful.com

    • CornHolio says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 2:07 am

      “What difference is there in principle between THAT and Mohammad wanting to have infidels and apostates killed? NONE.”

      You say there is no moral difference in GOD punishing people, and a PERSON punishing people? You think that since many religions believe that God sends people to Hell, that this is an equivalent action to humans murdering other humans? Really? So if I go around telling everyone to murder certain people, you will shrug and say my behavior is no more immoral than Christianity, because God also doest this?

      There is a MASSIVE moral divide between acknowledging God and PLAYING God. I really don’t understand why you can’t process that.

      *Both Christian and Muslim can point to scriptures of compassion, the Muslim examples have been abrogated and the Christian ones the Christian would like to remember while dismissing the cruel and sadistic ones as the will of “God” that shouldn’t be questioned*

      You almost wrote that correctly, but your moral equivalence program kicked in and twisted it again.
      The proper way of writing that would have been –
      “Both Christianity and Islam have compassionate scriptures, but in the case of Islam, they have ALL been abrogated by its FINAL messenger in its FINAL testament: while in Christianity, the compassionate messages ARE the recent and abrogating ones, and were delivered by its top authority.

      Don’t see that difference either?

    • rev g says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 8:38 am

      As for Christ and the adulterer, He did not overturn Mosaic law. He upheld it. Familiarize yourself with tbe law. Where was her co- conspirator?

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 9:16 am

        @rev g

        Thank you rev g.

        Brother Mark:)

  17. Brother Mark:) says

    Mar 31, 2015 at 4:14 am

    @CornHolio….

    Again I will remind you that the best teacher teaches by example. The Christian God is thought of as a father figure. Very well, let’s work with that.
    A father tells his child, “Do as I say, not as I do”. Don’t smoke cigarettes like me, don’t drink whisky like me, and come to think of it….don’t kill anyone for trying to deceive you like me or anything else that I do that may seem really twisted and sadistic. The child may ask, why do YOU get to do all that but not me?
    The father replies “because I’m the daddy, that’s why!” I created you, and I have the power to kill you anytime I want! What do you think the result will be?

    The father whether the omnipotent one as the child will not be, or not is still the role model presenting itself as the example of purity and goodness. Do as I say but not as I do does not work any better because you say that you are God.

    Sadistic and cruel behavior is still sadistic and cruel behavior.

    In this way the justification for the sadistic and cruel behavior is still the same for both Christian and Muslim jihadist. “God is not to be questioned” “God commands it” “God himself exemplifies what is good”

    All of this entails an abandonment of ones subjective ability to reason, and hands it over to what is accepted as a divine replacement for that great ability of ours….the ability to think.

    “Muhammad the prophet had the divine revelation from God (Allah)” they say. Either way, “God” is not to be questioned. At this point, your subjective thinking and ability to reason is something NO LONGER REQUIRED. I find that something that runs directly counter to the wellbeing of humanity.

    Tell me, after the example discussed in Exodus Ch.32 of about 3000 being killed by the command of Moses for not wanting to worship the God of Israel, in the prior to the coming of your Jesus, following the example of Moses, do you think that it should be considered as acceptable if someone as a Jew were killed for not wanting to believe as a Jew?

    This is a direct question, and I would appreciate a direct answer.

    Thank you.

    Brother Mark:)
    http://www.talktruthful.com

    P.S. typo correction/ “Mohammad” in one spot would have best been “Muhammad” even though I’ve seen both.

    • rev g says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 7:15 am

      So now we see a turn to insults and poor analogies
      Again your lack of depth regarding comprehension shows itself.
      Maybe if you read slowly, carefully, all of the events leading up to the one you describe, maybe you would start to get a clue. But I doubt it.

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 9:53 am

        @rev g

        Poor analogies? Cherry picking? These are common accusations and as usual with NO substance demonstrated.

        As far as Matt.5:17 and the woman accused of adultery, I was not the one to raise that issue, although it seemed a plausible contradiction as CornHolio thought.
        Once again, thanks for mentioning that.

        Insults? I have been fairly polite I believe, although if you could show me just where I have “insulted” anyone I would be very grateful.

        To the contrary, your attitude appears somewhat angry and resentful at this point.

        The initial issue actually was the claim made in the video that Christians don’t consider themselves superior, at least in the same way as Muslims do.
        I find that type of claim absolutely contrary to what any Christian has had to tell me about Christianity.
        Then again, there is the notion that Christianity is comprised mainly of some of the nice things that Jesus had to say or did, and not much more, something that contradicts even a basic dictionary definition of Christianity.
        Christianity is based on the Christian bible, not just the New Testament.

        I do sincerely apologize if I have somehow offended you.
        I was just enjoying what I thought was a good conversation.

        Thank you!

        Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 11:30 am

          The insult remark was a mistake, I did not realize there really was someone going by cornholio!
          Your analogies are flawed , and cherry-picked verses exacerbate the error. The Christian Bible includes the OT because of it’s importance in our history. The covenant with the Jews was with the Jews. Christ upheld the law, and fulfilled the covenant. That matters.
          Please point me to where the New Testament incites Christians to violence.

          Your remarks regarding the Exodus are severely errant. Moses slew 3000 who broke the covenant, and in doing so imperiled 2..5 million! They had barely started living under the covenant, and it was they themselves who entered into it. In slaying them Moses did the only reasonable thing. Better to exile them, to a slow death of starvation or cannabilism? Have them hang back to attempt to steal from the camp by night? They were in the midst of the desert, depending on God for nourishment, remember?

          Like I said, cherry-picking verses ignorant of context, and only cursory examination of pertinent texts leads to shallow understanding.

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 11:39 am

        @rev g

        You seem SO angry!

        Here’s a link that discusses the stoning of the woman for adultery issue in case anyone would like to do some more research on this.

        Although Moses had no problem with having about 3000 killed for not wanting to worship the God of Israel as he would have liked, the woman it is true, actually did not qualify to be stoned to death during the time of Jesus as well as during the time of Moses, for different reasons, although at least one would have qualified during the time of Moses.

        http://www.christianapologeticsalliance.com/2013/08/03/would-moses-have-stoned-the-woman-caught-in-adultery/

        Have a great day!

        Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 11:53 am

          I “seem” angry? It is amazing how you can infer my emotions from a few simple statements. I daresay you are projecting.
          Christ brought forth a new and eternal covenant.

          Again, your statement regarding Moses is without context. Either you are simple minded or just a pest.
          Context matters in anything written. I guess you failed middle school English? In islam. it indicts. In the OT it offers important insight. Without context the actual statement cannot be factually understood. That is why those seeking to denigrate have no use for context. It dispels the falsehoods they seek to propagate.

    • CornHolio says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 1:10 pm

      “Tell me, after the example discussed in Exodus Ch.32 of about 3000 being killed by the command of Moses for not wanting to worship the God of Israel, in the prior to the coming of your Jesus, following the example of Moses, do you think that it should be considered as acceptable if someone as a Jew were killed for not wanting to believe as a Jew?

      This is a direct question, and I would appreciate a direct answer.”

      Of course I don’t think it would be acceptable to have anyone killed for ANY religious prohibition. Like I clearly SAID already, neither did Christ (“Cast not the first stone”, “Vengeance is the Lord’s”, “turn the other cheek”), and you might remember that the root of “Christianity” is Christ, and not Leviticus.

      You don’t like the fact that the Christian God is a cruel one. I get that. He makes some VERY harsh judgment calls that seem pretty horrific to us. Flooding the world? Killing innocent Egyptian babies? Pretty bad stuff, right? But there is a huge difference between accepting – without understanding – the harsh punishments of God, and taking it upon OURSELVES to mete out similar punishments, to effectively PLAY God. Why can’t you understand that?

      But Christians are guided by the NEW testament first and foremost, and regard its prescriptions and proscriptions as the final word in any conflict with the Old. That is what they are all taught, and so it’s disingenuous of you to pluck out abrogated verses from a less-authoritative text, while ignoring the REPLACING ones.

      It’s as dishonest as talking about the United States and how it’s so terrible, by quoting laws permitting slavery and prohibiting women from voting. Those laws have since been updated. There are NEW laws in place, that have “abrogated” earlier, more primitive ones.

      When I criticize Islam in debate with a Muslim, I never use verses from non-sahih hadith, when sahih ones are in conflict, or use any sunnah as evidence, when Qur’anic verses disagree. That’s the rule, and that’s what Muslims are taught. So I would ask that you extend Christians the same courtesy, and not bring up “eye for an eye” when you know full well “turn the other cheek” has set the new legal “precedent”.

      Good chatting with you.

      • rev g says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 1:27 pm

        Yohr question is improper. The comparison is invalid. Context would explain it for you.
        Keep reading. Spend less time on those anti-Christian sites, they are teaching you to ignore context for the sake of sensationalism.
        For now, conversing is useless. Ciao.

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 8:56 pm

        @CornHolio

        Thank you for your reply.

        The reason why I have discussed the book of Acts Chapter 5 is because it’s a NEW TESTAMENT story that reveals the same sadistic and cruel God of the Old Testament. One thing that the Christian can’t say has been abrogated by the New Testament is the understanding that the best teacher teaches by example. How does the Christian break bread so to speak, with such a sadistic tyrant and honestly believe that they are able to walk away with their hands clean? I believe that history has abundantly shown other wise.

        At least you have been able to acknowledge what most Christians can’t while they talk about “context”, the fact that their “pure” and “holy” God is often shown as utterly sadistic and cruel, as well as simply an insanely jealous and spirituality immature maniac.

        But these things should supposedly be understood as acceptable because he’s God, instead of having the courage to question whether or not we have been convinced with religious lies in the first place. It’s amazing to me that people have been so well indoctrinated, that they will willingly somehow fit all of that in without question.

        Proper context? It’s the proper context of worshiping a sick sadist for a God, and giving the excuse that it’s God and therefore shouldn’t be questioned. I don’t see much of a difference whether it’s your “holy” spirit (of which God and Jesus are involved as the Trinity) or Muhammad the Muslim prophet.
        The buck stops at the same doorstep of “God” or “Allah” either way for justification.

        Thanks for the dialog.

        Brother Mark:)

        • CornHolio says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 9:50 pm

          *At least you have been able to acknowledge what most Christians can’t while they talk about “context”, the fact that their “pure” and “holy” God is often shown as utterly sadistic and cruel, as well as simply an insanely jealous and spirituality immature maniac.*

          Well that wasn’t exactly what I said. I said that Yahweh’s actions seem cruel and sadistic to us, but I allowed that I am speaking from a human perspective. Consider how children often see their parents’ actions as cruel and heartless. Being forced to eat horrible foods (manna) , forced to wander in the desert (go to school every day), and getting punished (spanked) for infractions we don’t understand.
          As children, we come to accept (most of us, anyway), that our parents know best and are looking out for our interests, and we hope that one day we’ll understand the purpose and morality of these rules and these punishments.
          That’s the Christian perspective, anyway.

          My point – and it’s one I’ve been belaboring here to little effect – is that trust in God or acceptance of God’s wisdom and authority, is a matter of Christian faith and belongs in the realm of theology or philosophy. No matter what any Christian believes about God’s actions,. his morality, or his example (as you’ve criticized), NO Christian has EVERY been taught or imagined that he or she has the authority to mete such judgments. Vengeance is the LORD’s, after all, according to Jesus.

          No matter how much you hate the punishment meted out by the holy spirit in Acts, this sort of thing is the province of one’s creator, and by no stretch of the imagination could a Christian figure that HE gets to sit in similar judgment over a “sibling”. Jesus makes it abundantly clear that WE are not to play God this way, for only those without sin and without so much as a mote in their eye – may cast a stone.

          This is why I object to your lumping together Christianity and Islam in this regard. NO Christian has EVER been taught to cast stones, but Muhammad taught that Allah gave such permissions on practically every page of the Quran! Context-free, open-ended instructions and permission to go out and “enforce” God’s will.
          THAT is what’s important to human beings on planet Earth! The permissions religions give their adherents to be monsters. The rest is theological speculation.

        • rev g says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 1:21 am

          Though I agree with your line of reasoning, I am not sure if applies to Acts 5. It is implied that these deaths are via supernatural means but I cannot think of any other instance where such actions were treated so ambiguously. This tells me that the spirit did not proclaim such an act, nor the reason for it. That strongly suggests it was not divine intervention.
          Most Christians get this wrong, of course a lot of Christians think the adulteress was Mary Magdalene as well.

        • Brother Mark:) says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 11:43 pm

          @CornHolio

          Wow!
          So they aren’t REALLY cruel and sadistic….they just SEEM that way!

          As I’ve said, the sad bottom line for the Christian is something like “Who are WE to dare use our minds, think in an objective and reasonable way, apart from what this doctrine teaches us to believe whether it really makes any sense or not?

          Both Jesus (according to the story line) AND Muhammad had to go to the well of authority of the SAME Abramhic teaching of a God.
          You keep wanting to miss that!

          The only difference is that as a Christian you would rather follow the good that you can derive from the teaching of Jesus as opposed to the Muslim who believes that their prophet Muhammad should be followed. Muhammad I would say was an excellent student in some ways of the Abrahmic prophetic prototype, and many Christians are in much self denial about that fact. Because of this, and all that has been discussed so far, if Christianity is ever allowed power over the state ever again, don’t kid yourselves into believing that what we have seen with Christianity before and with what we see with Islam today…that it can’t happen again with the religion of Christianity.

          Because it’s the same sadistic and cruel God, oh but wait…that’s right….it just seems that way to my “human perspective”….right?

          What do they say?
          If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck….it must just be my “human perspective”!

          Your such fun to talk to!

          Thank you!

          Brother Mark:)

        • CornHolio says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 12:15 am

          *The only difference is that as a Christian you would rather follow the good that you can derive from the teaching of Jesus as opposed to the Muslim who believes that their prophet Muhammad should be followed.*

          No, the difference is that Christians need only look to EVERYTHING that Christ said or did, in order to be good and peaceful and charitable human beings, while it is Muslims who have to deal with reams and reams of patently evil actions and quotations from THEIR “perfect man”. That is the real difference that you can’t seem to process properly, hung up as you are on Old Testament stories about Yahweh. Yes yes, I get it. You and I both disagree with flooding the world and destroying cities under the “ban of the Lord”. I get that. But let’s keep our eye on the ball, and not throw out the Christ-child with the Jehovah bath-water. As you said, the OT is common to both Christianity and Islam, but the Qur’an and New Testament are those faiths’ PRIMARY scriptural source and primary difference

          So you morally equate the two since both Muhammad and Jesus went to the same “well of authority”?

          An example – If you and I both believe in the same God, and then I go and create the “People’s Temple of Paul” in Paulstown, Guyana, complete with mirrored aviators, speed addiction, and after-dinner cyanide flavored grape Flavor-Aid, and slaughter 900 of my followers so we all can “translate” to another planet, our two “faiths” are morally equivalent then in your estimation, since we both call the same guy “God”?

          I don’t think so. Two religions that develop out of the same shady past, can go down different paths. One can (for the most part) go forward and the other pretty much completely backwards. Because for all that we both will condemn some of the things that Yahweh ordered done in the Old Testament, neither he nor ESPECIALLY Jesus ever gave blanket instructions to go out and slay unbelievers wherever they are found, or to kill anyone who insulted his “favorite dude”, or to state many a time that the unbeliever was an “open enemy for you”.

          I get it. You hate all religions equally. But it’s unfair and unwise to lump together the “Prince of Peace” and the “Prophet of Profit”.

          .

        • rev g says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 8:03 am

          You have yet to offer a shred of evidence for ykur claims, even as to OT events.
          Your opinions do not equate to facts. Indeed the OT offers justifications for any actions, unlike islam where their god is capricious and the greatest deceiver.
          You are an attentiin whore, no more, no less.

  18. rev g says

    Mar 31, 2015 at 7:20 am

    Context …it matters. Except when cherry- picking in atempts to denigrate. There it is an inconvenience.

    • Brother Mark:) says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 11:15 am

      Context….

      But don’t the Muslim apologists tell you the SAME thing?
      You know, you’re just taking it all out of context, because you want to denigrate.

      I don’t buy it from them either.

      Brother Mark:)

    • Brother Mark:) says

      Mar 31, 2015 at 12:18 pm

      @ rev g

      “Please point me to the verses in the New Testament that incite the Christian to violence”

      I find it hard to believe that when someone worships a God who has shown itself to be so sadistic that the end result will be those who are being taught compassion. Again. do as I say not as I do doesn’t work because you say that you’re God. The best teacher teaches by example. The Christian will acknowledge this for Jesus but…not for God! Even though the Trinity concept doesn’t leave much room for distinction.
      I would think that your “holy” spirit murdering two people for the crime of trying to deceive it would set the required example for anyone thinking that this is the “pure” and righteous one being spoken of.

      It is sadly predictable that you believe that Moses who is supposedly the same man who could part the red sea and work all sorts of miracles, had no choice but to murder 3000 for being infidels and apostates to the God of Israel.

      Your God seems a cruel and murdering God, but you wonder what incites the Christian to violence?

      Let’s remember, this is the same God whom the Christian is taught will horrifically torture me for all eternity
      (not for just a few billion years mind you) for having been deceived into getting the question wrong, and not pledging loyalty to team Jesus. Your “pure” and “holy” God.

      Gosh! What on earth can incite the Christian to be so cruel?
      Certainly not the example of their “pure” and “holy” God! After all, they know that THEY aren’t God…don’t they?

      Brother Mark:)

      • rev g says

        Mar 31, 2015 at 12:51 pm

        I was right, you have nothing. Your labelling of God as sadistic ignores context completely, and obly exposes your own shortcomings. You are either unable to comprehend context or willfully ignoring it.
        Either way, it is a waste of time to continue discussiob with such a shallow thinker.
        Have a nice day.

        • Brother Mark:) says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 5:54 pm

          @rev g

          I’m still trying to figure out the proper context of your “holy” spirit murdering two people for trying to deceive it …
          or your God horrifically torturing me and billions of billions more for an eternity for getting the religious question wrong or…

          As well, if anyone thought that Jesus was showing compassion for not having the woman accused of adultery stoned to death…they will now know that to the contrary,he was simply upholding the law of Moses. Good job!
          That was your main contribution to this thread, which would certainly seem rather counter productive for you, but so be it.

          I will once again apologize to you if anything that I have said has offended you. That was certainly never my intent, although at this point I’m not surprised that you would need to throw in the towel on a good conversation.

          Have a peaceful life my friend.

          Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Mar 31, 2015 at 6:04 pm

          Nothing offensive about you, your one-dimensional, convoluted idea of what passes for reason is humorous to some degree.
          I am sure the adulteress felt it quite compassionate that Christ so handily used the law to save her life.
          I guess you will never get it.

        • Joseph says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 1:29 am

          @ Brother Mark:) & rev g
          Here is a link to a guy who explains how Mohammed twisted and lied about the O.T. The O.T. that the Muslims refer to and use is NOT the O.T. that Christians use. Rather it is a distorted and perverted version to suit Mohammed’s twisted thoughts and ideas.

          His name is Usama Dakdok
          http://www.thestraightway.org/

          Take care BOTH of you and may the love of Jesus Christ be with you and yours.

  19. Telter says

    Mar 31, 2015 at 9:13 pm

    If I may chime in Brother Mark and Rev G, what Jesus or Moses said or did is not too relevent because Christianity and Judaism have reformed their religons. Islam has not. Therefore, it is silly to compare the Old Testament or New Testament with Mohamed’s Koran. That will be a legit comparison only AFTER Muslims reform Islam.

    • rev g says

      Apr 1, 2015 at 1:32 am

      Which tenets of Christianity needed reformung?

  20. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 1, 2015 at 3:02 am

    @ rev g

    So now you once again find the conversation worthwhile after telling me more than once that I was no longer worth bothering with.

    O.k. so now you say that you don’t believe that the “spirit” killed those two.
    You acknowledge that a supernatural cause is implied.
    Peter let it be known that what they were receiving was a consequence of trying to deceive the “holy” spirit.

    So what killed them? Would you suggest that Peter was in league with a Satanic force?

    This isn’t the first time I have spoken to a Christian who has tried to disown this from that which they have been taught to worship.

    • rev g says

      Apr 1, 2015 at 3:16 am

      I was not replying to you.

      You are enamoeed of jumping to conclusions not suppirted by the text.

      St. Peter in lwague qith Satan? Nope.
      Fright? Fear? Self-loathing? All of these and more are possible based on the text.
      You are too busy jumping to false conclusions to even cursorily analyze the actual text. Even as an atheist you are a charlatan.

      • Brother Mark:)Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 1, 2015 at 3:36 am

        @rev g

        You have acknowledged that a supernatural force was implied.
        Peter did let it be known that what they were receiving was due to the attempt of trying to deceive the “holy” spirit.

        Do you really think that fear or self loathing would qualify?

        A charlatan? You disrespect yourself with such talk. Atheist? No. Not that any of that is really relevant to anything that has been discussed.
        You’re the one jumping to conclusions.

        Again, you seem so angry.
        Again, please forgive me if I have offended you.

        Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 11:57 am

          I stand by my opinion on Acts. If the Holy Spirit had dispatched the people it would have been explicitly noted.
          As to Brother John, I was too kind. He comes to a site about Jihad that is active today to discuss ancient Judeo-Christian literature? He derails a pertinent discussion for his own ends? His questions would be much better answered on a theological website, a place where everyone has an interest in the subject. I am sure he knows he would be seriously outclassed at such a site. So instead he comes here, hoping to prey on the naivete of those here. He is the internet equivalent of a child molestor.
          Of further interest is his love of the word sadist. He claims to be in Cambodia, claiming this may affect his reply time. In today’s world people occupying the same home can have vastly different schedules and internet browsing habits. Geography is irrelevant. One must wonder, is he merely attempting to puff up his own ego with such a reference, or is it a clue to something more sinister? Cambodia has been noted for civil rights violations, including those relating to human trafficking and sex slaves of all ages and genders.
          Maybe I am being too hard on him, maybe he is here trying to cry out for help to change his ways. Maybe not, I should not jump to unsupported conclusions, leave that practice to him.

        • rev g says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 12:05 pm

          Oops,it should be Brother Mark, not John.

  21. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 1, 2015 at 3:20 am

    @CornHolio

    At this point, let me ask you a few simple questions.

    1. Is Christianity a religion that is based on the Christian bible that is the WHOLE bible OR just the New Testament?

    2. What of the O.T. commandments do you believe as a Christian you are obliged to follow?

    You know of course, different sects of Christianity have differing points of view about this, as an example, the Hebrew Christians believe that ALL still apply.

    3. Is the O.T. there just to give an introduction of sorts to the “real” story of the New Testament, or is it worth something more to you?

    By the way, I’m in Cambodia now and my day will be pretty busy, in case I need some time to get back with you or rev g on any of this, there is also about a 10-12 hour time difference depending on where you guys are.

    Thank you both for the great conversation.

    Brother Mark:)

    • Brother Mark:) says

      Apr 1, 2015 at 3:49 am

      @CornHolio

      Also: not just because you “call” the same guy “God” , it because as I have already said more than once, Muhammad was being very faithful in some ways to the Abramhic prophetic prototype, and many Christians are in self denial about that fact. There is a difference between just “calling” the same guy God, and REALLY taking a few lessons. Don’t you think?

      Brother Mark:)

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 1, 2015 at 4:03 am

        @CornHolio

        P.S
        Lessons both from the O.T
        God that you believe yourself to be the final prophet of as well as from the O.T. prophets themselves, the most notable of course being Moses.

        Brother Mark:)

      • rev g says

        Apr 1, 2015 at 7:52 am

        That is laughable. Muhammad could never have been called a prophet using the Torah to define the term.

        .Islam cannot be realistically associated with the Judeo-Christian branch of Abrahamic religions. It is Ishmaelite. It is satanic.
        Muhammad is a false prophet.

    • CornHolio says

      Apr 1, 2015 at 4:27 am

      I’ve got no problem answering your questions, I just find it a little odd how interested you are in being critical of Christianity, especially on an anti-Islam site. But I suppose it IS all the rage these days to be anti-establishment.(let me take a wild guess – your dad was a devout Christian, right?:)

      BTW, I’m not a practicing Christian, but I did attend 12 years of private school, so my answers would be coming from a Catholic perspective.

      1) That question is a loaded and misleading one, to ask if Christianity is “based on” the Old and New, or just the New. If by “based on”, you mean that both books are important, and are used for guidance and instruction, then I would say yes. But if you ask which is the overwhelmingly most important and definitive work, then the answer would be Christianity is “based on” the New Testament.

      Like the sunnah in Islam, Christians view the OT as less relevant and reliable and important – although few would ever be so brutally honest to put it that way – because much of the New DOES trump and directly contradict the Old. Much of it. And yes, even though Jesus DID answer the Pharisee with “I have not come to change one bit of the old law..”, he obviously did. That verse is pretty well understood to be him playing the usual legal word games with those idiots, who were constantly trying to trip him up on a heresy charge. This is only logical, because like I said – if he did not come to CHANGE anything, then he would not have any purpose, and the Pharisees would not have been angry and threatened by him, if he was not making changes. Right?

      2) Commandments? You mean of the 10? All of them. That’s right. Even no killing or stealing (those are tough to have to obey)
      Although personally I ignore the last two. Coveting is natural and harmless.
      But if your’e referring to all the sort of “emergency desert-dwelling” regulations in Leviticus and Numbers? No pork, no shellfish, no mowing the lawn on the Sabbath? Yeah. All abrogated.All ignored. All primitive tough-love regulations for a primitive people at a primitive time. As Jesus said to the Jewish leaders who accused him of ignoring some of those silly laws, when he threw them back in their faces and asked why they were not killing their OWN kids for ignoring some of those crazy dietary regulations, that they were ALL ignoring. Even then.

      And yes, I’m aware there are different sects who believe all the Old is perfectly valid. Those would technically be called “idiots”. Clearly you can’t have all the Old with the New. Something has to give when “eye for an eye” is in conflict with “turn the other cheek”.

      3) I think you’ve got the wrong idea about the OT, especially when comparing it to something like the Qur’an. No Christian (that I know of. Yes, I’m sure they are quite a few) believes the OT is the literal dictated word of God. They all accept that it was written by many different fallible humans and compiled and edited and translated by fallible men, and very few believe that Samson actually killed that many with a jawbone, if any. It’s seen as a historical-ethical guide, a sort of first grade, and Christ was the second grade lesson.
      Of course, Muslims believe “slay them wherever you find them” was the logical FINAL lesson after “turn the other cheek”. lol

      That’s what I’ve been trying to get at. You’re comparing apples and oranges by pulling out Leviticus verses and comparing them to Qur’anic ones and concluding, “See, equally bad. Equally DANGEROUS for humanity.”
      They aren’t the same thing. Muslims are all taught that each and ever word in the Qur’an is the literal dictated word of God, relevant for all time. And where the OT talks (too often) of Yahweh lowering the boom on evil dudes and evil cities, those were divine punishments that were all directed at the BAD GUYS. Complain about the punishments all you want – and I’ll join you on some – but those are not the same thing as being taught to PERSONALLY go and take the fight to everyone on the planet who’s not in your corner, FOREVER!

      Jesus , in his final appearance, told his followers (who had just been told to drop their weapons and watch him be tortured and die), to go and TEACH all the nations. Teach. Not slay.

      Sorry for writing so much, but I type faster than I think sometimes.

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 1, 2015 at 10:25 am

        @CornHolio

        Thank you for the continued dialog, and your good Christian patience.

        I’ll be hitting the hay soon, and hopefully we can continue this worthwhile conversation soon.

        Before then, let me ask you, do you consider someone who calls them self a Muslim but doesn’t adhere to much of the Qur’an or al hadith ( some would call them ‘moderates’ ) a “real” Muslim …or not?

        Thank you!

        Brother Mark:)

        • CornHolio says

          Apr 1, 2015 at 2:08 pm

          “Call themselves” a Muslim? I’m not too concerned with such distinctions, as everyone has his own definition of what it means to be a “Christian” or “Muslim” or even “agnostic”. I’m not even sure if I consider myself a Christian anymore, mostly due to my belief in the supernatural having faded over time. But In one sense, I am as devoted to the message of Christ as I ever was. Whether or not God exists – or indeed whether or not Christ even existed – the MESSAGES of people like Christ and Muhammad are still out there, and THEY certainly exist. I greatly respect the words and deeds and philosophy of Jesus, while I feel the exact opposite about Muhammad.

          So would I call someone who pretty much ignores most of the Qur’an and sunnah, a “Muslim”? I suppose I would. Why not? People can call themselves whatever they want.
          But I suspect your reason for asking that, is to segue into the question of whether or not Islam should be blanket condemned or blamed for the acts of a “lunatic fringe”, when so many “moderates” don’t take ANY of the horrible aspects of these books to heart? Like so many Christians ignore the rule about killing anyone who collects sticks on the Sabbath?

          Well my answer to that is – and has always been – that I blame and condemn a religion WHENEVER one of its adherents uses its legitimate scriptures to preach and condone hatred and violence. If some loopy Christian preacher in Alabama is teaching his flock to go out and scour the world of homosexuals and adulterers while quoting Leviticus, then yes, I would blame the Christian faith for that, and fully expect the “mainstream” of that religion to either DO something about that idiot, or be tarred with the same accusatory brush.

          And the same with Islam. I have no respect for “moderate” Muslims who say they eschew all the “sword verses”, and quote “No compulsion in religion” every morning over their Corn Flakes, while at the same time turning a blind eye to all the NON-moderate Muslims around the world – and even right down the street from them – who ARE respecting those violent and hateful verses in latter chapters of the Qur’an like 33, 3, 8, or 9.

          IMO you can’t cherry-pick the messages of these two influential characters. You can’t turn a blind eye to some stuff. And I respect every aspect of what Jesus said and did, and I only respect the EARLY stuff that Muhammad said and did. But as soon as that dude got some power, out the window went all the peace and love and out came the swords and the booty collection and the petty payback.

          That’s why I don’t understand why you are so interested in bringing up OT stories and floods and whales swallowing people, when you should be focusing on the primary differences in the characters of the central figures in Christianity and Islam. It’s kind of like morally equating Hitler and Gandhi, by pointing out that both of them at one time cheated on his taxes.

  22. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 1, 2015 at 11:25 pm

    @CornHolio

    Do you see it as mere coincidence that there is such a strong similarity between much of the Sharia law, and the Old Testament law of Moses? Muhammad was following the Old Testament prophetic prototype in many ways, very accurately.

    You have said:

    “So would I call someone who pretty much ignores most of the Qur’an and sunnah, a “Muslim”? I suppose I would. Why not? People can call themselves whatever they want.”

    MANY people through out history have been killed and made to suffer, due to the Christians who in general have made more of the Old Testament than my peace loving Christian friends.

    Why is it that many Christians will concede that if a Muslim who chooses to live at peace with the world and deny the violence encouraged and mandated for their lives by the Qurán and Hadith as worthy to follow, they can be rightfully considered “real” Muslim if they want, but the Christian who does not take the approach of the peace loving Christian and would rather focus their attention on much of the Old Testament as well, all of a sudden become not “real”Christians! This is a double standard, pure and simple. It is a double standard that the Christian who would like to shoot up someone at the local abortion clinic can easily see through.

    Would it not be fair to say that historically, there has been disagreement over what one should consider an ideal Christian?

    Also:

    In the book of Matthew and the book of Luke, there are two different genealogies for Jesus, and although I’ve read and heard different excuses for this contradiction, both are described explicitly as the genealogies of Jesus. So then, if the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament in areas of contradiction, then what do you do when the New Testament contradicts itself? Should the book of Luke supersede the book of Matthew or should it be the other way around, and why?
    If the New Testament can contradict itself and one should not supersede the other, then perhaps some see the Christian Bible as a whole this way also.

    Thank you for your patience and loving kindness!

    Brother Mark:)

    • CornHolio says

      Apr 1, 2015 at 11:48 pm

      “MANY people through out history have been killed and made to suffer, due to the Christians who in general have made more of the Old Testament than my peace loving Christian friends.”

      Of course. I’ve never tried to deny that plenty of Christians throughout history have chosen to ignore the peaceful and abrogating teachings and example of Christ. That’s not HIS fault. In the same vein, I would never blame Islam or Muhammad for a Muslim who commits acts that are NOT in accordance with the tenets and example of Muhammad and Islam.

      “This is a double standard, pure and simple. It is a double standard that the Christian who would like to shoot up someone at the local abortion clinic can easily see through.”

      Have your read what I wrote? Did I not cover the concepts of “abrogation” that are a part of both Islam and Christianity? The idea that the most recent teachings and examples and regulations are the TRUMPING ones? My analogy about the American slavery “laws” just whizzed by your ear? You’re still gonna keep going with that “the bad stuff is in both books, therefore it’s all the same” crap? You’re just going to keep ignoring the time frames here on the revelations and their respective weights?

      *Would it not be fair to say that historically, there has been disagreement over what one should consider an ideal Christian?*

      No, IMO it would not be fair. Of course there are always lunatic fringes, but if you’re suggesting that the example of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament were ever NOT considered to be the PRIMARY and supreme guide for behavior for Christians, then I would say your’e wrong.

      But Islam? (I gather you’re NOT going to ask the parallel question here, so I’ll just go ahead and do it)
      Also NO. There has never been any sect of Islam that I’ve ever heard of, who did not consider Muhammad to be the “excellent example for humanity”. Plain and simple. How Muhammad behaved, ALL Muslims throughout history, have deemed to be the perfect way to behave. And the VAST majority of Muslims also believe that latter “revelations” supersede earlier ones. Which is only logical. Because what then would be the point of them?

      “Should the book of Luke supersede the book of Matthew or should it be the other way around, and why?”

      No, Luke does not supersede or abrogate Mathew or any of his contemporaries. They are all accounts of the same person, and errors in reporting are to have been expected. Luke did not “reveal” anything new for the world. He was just a reporter, and it doesn’t matter which of Woodward and Bernstein got to their typewriters first.

      The New Testament does not “contradict itself”, it simply contains the inevitable errors in reporting you will always get when humans see and hear the same things but recall and interpret them differently.
      Once again, you are in “Qur’an -comparison” mode. It is the QURAN that is believed to have been the literal DICTATED word of God, not the Bible.

      You really need to watch the apples and oranges comparisons.
      (I think you’ve been watching too many of Obama’s speeches on the subject of religion)

      • rev g says

        Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 am

        Nice work Cornholio.
        Regarding Luke and Matthew, the different family histories are not errors. The tax colkector would be expected to be legalistic, hence a paternal.history. A physician is more inclined to present the biological history, which for Jesus is maternal. Taken together, and with consideration of his birth Father, it underscores his rightful claim to the kingship.

  23. Champ says

    Apr 2, 2015 at 2:54 am

    I think “Brother Mark” is here to mock Christianity, that’s all …even his choice of a moniker mocks Christians ’cause he ain’t no “brother” in Christ! He gets his jollies out of mocking Christians and has made a sport of it …

  24. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 2, 2015 at 8:45 pm

    @CornHolio

    The book of Matt. and the book of Luke not in contradiction with the genealogy of Jesus? Whatever excuse you would like to give…they can’t BOTH be correct!

    You have recently indicated that if someone were to use the scripture for preaching hatred or violence, that you WOULD blame the Christian faith for that, and that you would expect the mainstream to have something to say or do about that. Although I would not blanket condemn ALL of Christianity, I would not say that the violent and hateful Christian doesn’t have the every right to call him or herself a Christian either.
    There are different sects and inclinations of all religions that I know of, Christian and Muslim and Buddhist etc.

    The point here is that THOSE Christians obviously believe themselves to be the “true” Christian with their own perspective on why, just as any other Christian would as well.

    When a Christian brags that Christianity is SO much better than Islam, I just believe it’s wise to consider just what KIND of Christian is being referred to.

    As one example among many to be sure, I spent some time down in North Carolina a few years back. Even though many Christian preachers and Christians come from the lunatic fringe as you prefer to call it, few are so stupid to actually get on the pulpit in church and call for the death of homosexuals, that might cause some serious bad press and an unwanted controversy! Every now and then though, someone doesn’t care about that, and we all hear about it.

    I am a Buddhist monk who now lives in Cambodia of non South East Asian decent, and as a comparison, there are few monks or abbots who would actually tell me to my face that they don’t think that I should be a Buddhist monk because I am of European decent, some will, and for many it will show in how they talk and behave otherwise. They know that I can go to scripture and decimate such nonsense easily.

    Likewise, the hateful Christian IS a Christian, although perhaps not YOUR type of Christian.

    Muslim reformers need to be supported and empowered in every way, and that won’t happen very well if we spread the lie that they aren’t “real” Muslim, because they aren’t following the Qur’an and Hadith like a drivers manual.

    That pretty says what I believe needs to be said.

    Thank you for your patience and loving kindness to stick with the conversation.

    Brother Mark:)

    • rev g says

      Apr 2, 2015 at 9:50 pm

      Brother Mark is not even a good liar.
      Jesus had 2 earthly parents, I have already explained that. Thus two geneologies.
      Go away child molestor.
      No true Buddhist, let alone a monk, would seek out laypeople to query in an attempt to twist their answers.
      Your methodology is exactly like that of a child molestor. Even down to your accusations that those who disagree with you “sound angry”. If it is so, it is your own emotions projecting. Your own influence to words on a screen. The anger must be your own.
      Ask a real Buddhist, they will explain it to you.

    • CornHolio says

      Apr 2, 2015 at 10:29 pm

      *The point here is that THOSE Christians obviously believe themselves to be the “true” Christian with their own perspective on why, just as any other Christian would as well.

      Like I said, anyone can call themselves whatever they want. I could call myself a Muslim, but if I started making it obvious that I rejected most or all of what Muhammad is believed to have said and done, my claim is rather hollow. I might as well start another branch of faith. Muslims, for instance, say they honor Christ as a prophet, yet the Qur’an contains NONE of his teachings. A grand total of 3 times Jesus is quoted in that book, and all he ever reiterates is the 1st commandment (the first pillar of Islam). So a Muslim could CALL himself a “Christian”, but it would quickly become obvious he’s not, when he dismisses Christ as the primary character.

      Anyone who believes that Christ’s words and deeds should be the guide to his life, is a Christian IMO, whatever particular forms his church or observance takes.

      “When a Christian brags that Christianity is SO much better than Islam, I just believe it’s wise to consider just what KIND of Christian is being referred to”

      Anyone who patterns his life after Jesus – that person’s faith is FAR “better” than a person’s faith who patterns his life after Muhammad. IMO. Pretty simple, that. Not sure why you can’t understand my position.
      When Anders Breivik and Hitler murdered, they were NOT using Jesus as an example.
      When Bin Laden and Muhammad Atta murdered, they WERE using Muhammad as an example.
      Pretty simple logic there, Brother.

      “few are so stupid to actually get on the pulpit in church and call for the death of homosexuals,”
      And if one ever DOES, I’m quite certain you will see the Christian world condemn them.

      Now flip that around to what happens when MANY Imams and even Muslim state LEADERS call for the death of gays? But you don’t want to talk about that, do you? You’d rather talk about what Christian pastors MIGHT be thinking? lol

      *Likewise, the hateful Christian IS a Christian, although perhaps not YOUR type of Christian.*

      As I’ve always admitted. Hitler and Anders Breivik and probably 90% of the criminals on death row in America are nominally “Christian”. You’re swinging at ghosts here, brother.
      But like I said, NONE of that hate comes from Christ, while ALL of the hate coming from radical Muslims DOES come from Muhammad.

      “Muslim reformers need to be supported and empowered in every way, and that won’t happen very well if we spread the lie that they aren’t “real” Muslim, because they aren’t following the Qur’an and Hadith like a drivers manual.”

      Of course they need to be supported! I’ve never said otherwise. But the only way reform can ever happen in the Muslim world is by HONESTLY looking at what needs to be rejected and criticized in the Islamic texts, just as YOU are so fond of pointing out harmful stuff in the Old Testament. We can’t bury our heads in the sand out of fear or political correctness, and we need to call a spade a spade. And the truth is, they MUST reject large segments of the Qur’an, if they are to enter the human race!

      This isn’t a childish game of whose God is “Akbar”. It’s being honest about who and what Muhammad was.

      • CornHolio says

        Apr 2, 2015 at 10:33 pm

        edit:
        By “enter the human race”, I meant “enter civilized human society”

        (I type too fast).

  25. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 1:56 am

    @rev g

    To say that I am seeking out the layperson to query and twist their words is a matter of opinion and one of course that I would disagree with.

    To try to insult me by calling me a “child molester” is the type of bitter and childish response that I’ve come to expect from many a Christian who has a difficulty discussing such issues in an open and honest way as to what our thoughts are.

    Whether we agree or not, you are entitled to your opinion and I wouldn’t seek to call you bad names like a pissed off little boy or girl because of it.
    I personally know many Christians who would see that , and as a Christian would feel a sense of embarrassment because of such behavior.

    I wish you a peaceful life my friend.

    Brother Mark:)

    • rev g says

      Apr 3, 2015 at 2:51 am

      Now now, you sound so very angry, even resorting to foul language. I merely used sound reasoning and knowledge gleaned from others in the mental health and child protective services fields to form an accurate appraisal of you.
      I understand this concept is likely alien to you, you certainly did not use reasoned appraisals in forming your opinions on religion.
      As well, this is a site frequented mostly by laypersons. Yiur choices indict you. The facade also slips away, exposing your fraudulence.
      Have a nice day!

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 3, 2015 at 10:49 am

        @ rev g

        Foul language? And just where would that be? Child molester? Illicit sex trade? Anger? You have indeed sounded very angry for some time now, and it’s only gotten worse. So now if I point that out, I’M the angry one?! My friend, I am not the one who has decided to behave like a pissed off wee little boy with such talk. You may have a good knowledge of the Christian bible, but you are very immature. When you grow up some day, perhaps we might continue the conversation. And to think, you were the one who wanted to chide me when you thought (you later realized your mistake) that I was insulting you….some people can have an adult conversation and some just cannot…
        especially when it starts not to go their way.

        Have a peaceful life.

        Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Apr 3, 2015 at 12:24 pm

          You sound even angrier now. I refrained from foul language, even when I mistakenly thought you were being insulting. My comments regarding your personality and psychological profile can be easily researched and verified as sound reasoning.

          I understand that such ideas may be alien to you. You come here short on facts and long on unsupported conclusions. Appeal to emotion is all you have apparently. A modicum of research could have easily dispelled your misgivings, but does not fit your agenda, it seems.

          The more you post, the more you verify our suspicions regarding your psyche.

  26. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 2:10 am

    @ CornHolio

    I would of course agree with you that the life of Jesus as portrayed in the New Testament is a more ideal model to follow than what we know of the life of Muhammad, the Muslim prophet.

    I don’t think that really has much to do though with what I have been discussing, which mind you, I don’t think it should be necessary for me to keep repeating.

    I wish you a peaceful and spiritually prosperous life my friend.

    Thank you.

    Brother Mark:)

  27. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 2:34 am

    @CornHolio

    I will clarify what it is that I’ve been discussing, just in case there has been any misunderstanding. To put it now in as few words as possible I will say that the whole Christianity vs. Islam conversation is not as conveniently simple as the Jesus vs. Muhammad issue that many Christians would like to make of it, which I believe the history of Christianity would well attest to.

    Thank you for your time.

    Brother Mark:)

    • CornHolio says

      Apr 3, 2015 at 3:01 am

      *I will clarify what it is that I’ve been discussing, just in case there has been any misunderstanding. To put it now in as few words as possible I will say that the whole Christianity vs. Islam conversation is not as conveniently simple as the Jesus vs. Muhammad issue that many Christians would like to make of it, which I believe the history of Christianity would well attest to.*

      I understand what you’ve been saying perfectly. I hear it all the time.
      But don’t you see? Islam and Christianity basically share the SAME sordid past – the Old Testament. So the primary difference in those two faiths IS the character of Muhammad vs the character of Jesus.

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 3, 2015 at 10:52 am

        @CornHolio

        So if there is a discussion about Christianity (not just the little we know about the life of Jesus but CHRISTIANITY) and Islam, the history of Christianity and how many Christians have interpreted their ENTIRE Christian bible as Christians and continue to do so, should not be just as much a valid part of it?

        How VERY convenient!

        Once again, thank you for the continued dialog. It’s nice to know that you can stick with an adult conversation.

        Brother Mark:)

  28. Brother Mark:)Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 8:36 am

    @ rev g

    Foul language? And just where would that be? Child molester? Illicit sex trade? Anger? You have indeed sounded very angry for some time now, and it’s only gotten worse. So now if I point that out I’M the angry one?! My friend, I am not the one who has decided to behave like a pissed off little boy with such talk. You may have a good knowledge of the Christian bible, but you are very immature. When you grow up some day, perhaps we might continue the conversation. And to think, you were the one who wanted to chide me when you thought (you later realized your mistake) that I was insulting you….some people can have an adult conversation and some just cannot…
    especially when it starts not to go their way.

    Have a peaceful life.

    Brother Mark:)

  29. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 8:58 am

    @CornHolio

    So if there is a discussion about Christianity (not just the little we know about the life of Jesus but CHRISTIANITY) and Islam, the history of Christianity and how many Christians have interpreted their ENTIRE Christian bible as Christians and continue to do so, should not be just as much a valid part of it?

    How VERY convenient!

    Once again, thank you for the continued dialog. It’s nice to know that you can stick with an adult conversation.

    Brother Mark:)

  30. Brother Mark:) says

    Apr 3, 2015 at 7:12 pm

    @ rev g

    Foul language?

    OUR suspicions?

    The pissed off wee little boy behaving type has now become a psychology pro wanna be!

    Seriously rev g, if I were angry at you, I doubt that I would be wishing you a peaceful life, as I have consistently done. No, you want to MAKE me angry so that I’ll go away, that was pretty apparent from your last post.
    “The more you post”….

    First, you declared me unworthy to have a conversation with and stopped responding directly to what I was discussing (although you continued to make remarks from the sidelines) then the silly talk meant to be offensive and insulting, backed up most recently with the psychology type talk. You behave like just another garden variety type little boy who cannot hack a free and open discussion. I have found this more on sites that are Christianity and Islam oriented than anywhere else.

    Really, rev g, just grow up, learn how to be a big boy and have patience and tolerance for the views of other people, without this sort of ridiculous behavior.

    Please believe me when I tell you, I believe I must have all the love and compassion that I can possibly have for someone who behaves as you do.

    Due to the demonstrated fact that this is more your style of conversation for someone who doesn’t agree with your view, as opposed to being able to discuss the issues having been discussed, this will be my last response to you.

    Again, I wish you a peaceful life my friend.

    I now give you the last word.

    Brother Mark:)

    • rev g says

      Apr 3, 2015 at 7:19 pm

      I am no psychology wiz, but I have others to lean on for insight. The contortions between your anger as exemplified by your language and your faux good wishes is acopyquite telling. You only further prove my point.

    • Champ says

      Apr 3, 2015 at 7:36 pm

      No, you want to MAKE me angry so that I’ll go away …

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Oh Brother! …one can only HOPE that you’ll “go away”!

      • Brother Mark:) says

        Apr 3, 2015 at 9:57 pm

        @Champ

        Thankfully there will always be those who enjoy the free inquiry of an honest and sincere conversation.
        Anger and immaturity don’t have much of a place for that.

        Have a blessed day my friend.

        Brother Mark:)

        • Champ says

          Apr 3, 2015 at 10:10 pm

          Sincere? Save it …

          You’re a disengenuous CLOWN who’s projecting your own “immaturity” in the comments section for all the world to see.

          Get a mirror.

        • Champ says

          Apr 3, 2015 at 10:12 pm

          Par’Done my spelling …

          You’re a *disingenuous* CLOWN!! …that was worth repeating 😀

        • Brother Mark:) says

          Apr 4, 2015 at 3:03 am

          @Champ

          More childish name calling.
          At least you haven’t implied that I’m involved in human trafficking, illicit sex, or have called me a child molester yet!

          Your last comment seemed to want to deny that what I said could apply to you
          (it wasn’t directed in a personal way toward anyone, it was merely a general statement) but then you demonstrate that indeed you do qualify!

          I should perhaps feel lucky that all you did was call me a disingenuous clown!

          I hope that you can understand that there are people in this world (many whom you might know personally) who can love you for who you are, without necessarily agreeing with you about everything.

          I believe that it’s important that we ALL look in the mirror at least once a day, especially after we tell someone else to do so.

          Have a blessed day!

          Brother Mark:)

        • rev g says

          Apr 4, 2015 at 7:58 am

          And there will always be people like Brother Mark who seek out and prey upon those honest and sincere people.

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