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UK: Anglican vicar holds Muslim prayer service in his church, asks congregation to praise “the god that we love, Allah”

Mar 13, 2015 2:16 pm By Robert Spencer

Giles GoddardWhen Giles Goddard painted that cross on his church building, and had one placed on his forehead, was he aware of this hadith? “Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, ‘By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.'” (Bukhari 3.34.425)

Did the Muslim prayer service include any of these Qur’an readings?

Christians have forgotten part of the divine revelations they received: “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.” — Qur’an 5:14

Jesus is not the Son of God: “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.” — Qur’an 4:171

“It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.” — Qur’an 19:35

Those who believe that Jesus is God’s Son are accursed: “The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ” — Qur’an 9:30

Those who believe in the divinity of Christ are unbelievers: “They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, ‘Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?’ And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.” — Qur’an 5:17

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary’ while the Messiah has said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.” — Qur’an 5:72

Jesus was not crucified: “And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger – they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.” — Qur’an 4:157

Meanwhile, Arabic-speaking Christians use the word “Allah” for the God of the Bible, but Goddard has something different in mind: the equation of the God of the Bible with Allah of the Qur’an, as per Qur’an 29:46, and in defiance of all the above Qur’an quotes and more.

“Under fire, vicar who said ‘we love Allah’: Liberal clergyman attacked by traditional Anglicans for allowing full Muslim prayer service in his Church,” by Chris Pleasance, MailOnline, March 12, 2015:

A leading liberal clergyman has come under fire from traditionalist Anglicans after allowing a full Muslim prayer service in his church.

Reverend Giles Goddard, vicar of St John’s in Waterloo, central London, joined in the event by reading a passage from the Bible at the ‘Inclusive Mosque’ event.

He then asked the congregation to praise ‘the god that we love, Allah’, it was reported last night.

It is thought to be the first time an entire Islamic service has been held by the Church of England and has sparked criticism from evangelical clerics.

Orthodox clergyman said the event was against canon law, which prohibits any divergence from the official liturgy.

They argued that it could be ‘offensive’ to Christians who are persecuted for their faith.

Rev Goddard defended his decision to hold the event, describing it as a ‘very moving’ service. He said his intention was simply to offer people a ‘place to pray’.

He told the Christian Today website that everything his church did was legal and within bishops’ guidelines.

He added: ‘It is very much about St John’s being a place of welcome. We understand God as a generous God, a God who celebrates love and celebrates life.

‘We try and make sure we live that out. In that sense we feel very properly Anglican.’

The ‘Inclusive Jummah’ was held in partnership with the Inclusive Mosque Initiative.

It was organised to coincide with the run-up to International Women’s Day last weekend.

The service was arranged by Dr Amina Wadud, a campaigner for gender justice in Islam.

Rev Goddard said the service had not put off Christian churchgoers and his congregation is growing.

He told the Daily Telegraph: ‘We are offering a place for people to pray so it made absolutely perfect sense. We should be offering [a place] to party, we are the Church of England.

‘They could have gone to a community centre, I suppose, but they loved being in a church, they were just really pleased and delighted to have the welcome and it was very moving, really. It is the same God, we share the same tradition.’

At the end of the service, the vicar read a section of Psalm 139 and said: ‘This is from the Hebrew scripture – we all share these great traditions, so let us celebrate our shared traditions, by giving thanks to the God that we love, Allah.’

Rev Stephen Kuhrt, vicar of Christ Church, New Malden, said: ‘I am appalled by islamophobia and when people whip up anti-Muslim frenzy, but the vicar of St John’s Waterloo has done something that is completely illegal, which is to allow an Islamic service to be held in his church, and then he has participated as well.’…

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Filed Under: dhimmitude, Featured, United Kingdom, Useful idiots, willful ignorance Tagged With: Church of England, Giles Goddard


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Comments

  1. cs says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    Try to pray for Jesus in a Mosque you silly man.

    • cs says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 2:29 pm

      To be honest, I believe this will backfire, it is one more provocation. One more is pilling up.

      • jayell says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 3:25 pm

        It has already backfired, but you must remember that this is the Church of England you are talking about here. It was originally formed for political reasons, not spiritual reasons, its Head is the Monarch and senior clerical positions, or at least the Archbishops, are either made or at least approved by the Prime Minister. Because of this it tends to be unduly influenced by politics and the opinions, fashions and trends of the establishment and the political elite. In fact, some people think that it never has really been a ‘church’, more ‘Her Majesty’s Department of God’, and the clergy are more like civil servants than ‘priests’, ultimately taking their orders the secular government. An example of this sort of thing has been the speed with which it has recruited and promoted women into the clergy, fast-tracking them up the ranks (as far as bishoprics now) in keeping with the feminist ethos that seems to be swamping Western society at the moment. The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches would condemn this as quite unscriptural and unacceptable and a sell-out to the whims of secular society – which, of course, it is. So it should not be surprising when C of E ‘priests’, following the current fashionable multi-cultural – and anti-Christian’ – trends (as decreed by their temporal Lords) start hob-nobbing with the muzzies and selling out to them as is more than obvious when “He (the Rev. Goddard) asked the congregation to praise ‘the god that we love, Allah’…” And it should also be noted that “the service was arranged by Dr Amina Wadud” (no doubt a dyed-in-the wool feminist) “a campaigner for gender justice in Islam”. There you go, ticks all the boxes, everything politically correct. The facts that nowhere in the Bible does it tell Christians to worship ‘Allah’, that Jesus was most certainly NOT ‘politically correct’ and would have deplored most of the contents of the Qu’ran, would be of no consequence to a C of E priest with an eye to promotion.

        • JMB says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 4:46 pm

          #jayell.
          What you have said is oh so true.
          What you have said should be printed in a pamphlet and be distributed to ever member of the C of E in the UK.

        • NorseWarrior says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 5:20 pm

          Nail on the head,Kick tail piece. JMB your right on too!!!!! THANKS!

        • jayell says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 6:25 pm

          “What you have said should be printed in a pamphlet and be distributed to ever member of the C of E in the UK.” Too late, mate. They’ve all been brainwashed.

    • The Doctor says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 2:56 pm

      Odds are they won’t even allow a non-Muslim to set foot in the mosque for fear of “defiling” it. (By definition, a mosque is defiled because it is a sanctuary of Satan, but the Muslims don’t see that.)

      • Jay Boo says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 6:01 pm

        Let’s show our Muslim brothers and sisters some Christian love and invite them to sing this song:

        Turning Away – Bryan Andrew Wilson

    • Peggy says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 6:11 pm

      What, no outrage from the Queen? Isn’t the English Monarch also the defender of the Church of England?
      There is only one way that people can show this traitor how t hey feel and that is not to enter that church again until he is gone and it is properly blessed again.

    • Alex says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 6:16 pm

      Thank you CS, you just got the point!!! Is someone going to ask imam’s to hold a big service for Easter in any mosque?????

    • Fr. Basil` says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 6:51 pm

      I wonder of this CofE vicar is aware that according to sharia St. John’s Church is not a mahometan mosque?

  2. Jovial Joe says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    The Rev can be contacted here: admin@stjohnswaterloo.org

    Let’s send him a link to Robert’s piece and a polite dressing down while we’re at it; show him the error of his ways.

    • Jovial Joe says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 2:32 pm

      Oh, here’s a direct line to Allah’s Vicar: E: gileswgoddard@gmail.com

    • cs says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 2:36 pm

      Thanks, I think it is our duty to send an email, teaching what Islam is.

  3. Joseph says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    What a traitor and antichrist. He is leading his flock astray, woe unto him. He knows better and a special punishment awaits him in hell.
    Islam and Christianity are direct opposites. This is like saying that God and Satan are friends.
    The true church of JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT AND WILL NOT BE COMPLICIT WITH ISLAM.

    • AnneM says

      Mar 17, 2015 at 2:22 pm

      AMEN!

  4. Walter Sieruk says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    Anglican minster must be a case of “the blind leading the blind.” What a very ignorant man he is.

  5. Stuart Lindsey says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:34 pm

    Did the mosque return the favour , asking it`s ‘ worshippers ‘ to give thanks to God and his Son Jesus Christ ? I bet not

  6. Champ says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    Question: “Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?”

    Answer: The Muslim and Christian views of God have some similarities. Christians believe in one eternal God Who created the universe, and Muslims apply these attributes to Allah. Both view God as all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present.

    A vital difference between the Islamic and Christian views of God is the biblical concept of the Trinity. In the Bible, God has revealed Himself as one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. While each Person of the Trinity is fully God, God is not three gods but three in one.

    God’s Son came in the form of man, a truth called the incarnation (Luke 1:30-35; John 1:14; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 4:1-3). The Lord Jesus Christ conquered the penalty and power of sin by dying on the cross (Romans 6:23). After rising from the dead, Jesus went back to heaven to be with His Father and sent the Holy Spirit to believers (Acts 1:8-11). One day, Christ will return to judge and rule (Acts 10:42, 43). Those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus will live with Him, but those who refuse to follow Him must be separated in hell from the holy God.

    “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:35-36). Either Jesus bears the wrath of God for your sin on the cross or you bear the wrath of God for your sin in hell (1 Peter 2:24).

    The Trinity is essential to the Christian faith. Without the Trinity, there would be no incarnation of God’s Son in the Person of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ, there would be no salvation from sin. Without salvation, sin would condemn all to an eternal hell.

    So, do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? A better question is, “Do Christians and Muslims both have a correct understanding of who God is?” To this question, the answer is definitely no. Because of crucial differences between the Christian and Muslim concepts of God, the two faiths cannot both be true. The biblical God alone addresses and solves the problem of sin by giving His Son.

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:16-18).

    http://www.gotquestions.org/same-God.html

    • deja vu says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 4:38 pm

      The Trinity is not the only aspect – the attributes of Yahweh and Allah are polar opposites which rules out the notion that they are the same.

      Yahweh describes Himself as a Father – Allah does not
      Yahweh is knowable and desires relationship – Allah is unknowable
      Yahweh freely gives salvation through Jesus – Allah does not offer salvation
      Yahweh answers prayer – Allah does not
      Yahweh does not change – Allah is capricious
      Yahweh loves all mankind – Allah ‘loves’ Muslims only
      Yahweh cannot lie – Allah deceives
      God is triune – the Trinity is blasphemy
      Jesus was a created being – Jesus is self-existent
      Jesus is Lord – Jesus was an apostle to Allah
      Jesus was crucified – Jesus was not crucified

      The Rev Goddard is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a hireling who has been deceived into thinking he’s building bridges. The only bridge he’s building is a one-way bridge to Islam.

      • Bezelel says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 9:08 pm

        deja vu, Nice list, It is that black and white and there’s no excuse for someone with a title of Vicar. The koran isn’t big on healing the sick or raising the dead or cleansing lepers or casting out demons either.

      • Gary says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 9:47 pm

        Deja vu,

        You actually are far more qualified to tend and lead a flock than Rev Goddard. You are absolutely correct… He’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing. His path leads only to the lie that Yahweh and the false god allah are one and the same. They’re not….

        ‘I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

        Isaiah 46:9-10

      • Kepha says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 11:07 pm

        Champ and deja vu, well said.

  7. Ricky Black says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, Revelation 20:4

  8. jay says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    So now the Anglican church has devolved simply into a ‘place to pray’ and Christian theology and ideology are optional. I guess that’s a natural progression of events from the Church created by a king who didn’t like following the rules of Christianity to begin with.

    • Peggy says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 6:19 pm

      “Church created by a king who didn’t like following the rules of Christianity to beg with”.
      —————————————–
      I disagree. What about Martin Luther? Did he break away for the same reason?
      What makes you think that Catholic way only is the Christian way and the rest are all on the wrong path?
      Yes, this fool is certainly on the wrong path but you cannot say the same of others simply because they don’t follow Vatican.

  9. Liam1304 says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    “Rev Goddard defended his decision to hold the event, describing it as a ‘very moving’ service.”

    And that is far as the thinking goes.

    If it feels inclusive they will marry homosexuals (and support polyamory should it become legal in Britain); ordain practicing homosexuals; support a woman’s “right” to abortion or turn their church into a mosque for the sake of “inclusiveness, openness and “diversity”.

    Read the sciptures of Islam? They don’t even take their own scriptures seriously.

    • Lucretius says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm

      Very good point. This only encourages orthodox muslims In despising what used to be Christendom and Christianity, when they see these christians don’t take their scriptures seriously while muslims still do. The real effect is exactly the opposite of the spirit of mutual respect this cleric hopes for. How deluded he is!

  10. Austin Ken says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    The Bishop of Canterbury should simply accept this obvious act of resignation and replace the Vicar before next week’s service.

    Viva Cristeros Rey!

    Ken

    • Cynthia in California says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 4:37 pm

      Thank you. The clearest and best response I’ve seen yet on this disgusting spectacle. (And I don’t even belong to a church these days.)

  11. Carlos Danger says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    You shall know them by their fruits.

    W@nkers like this Padre are sooooo interested in not giving offense to those they fear………

  12. Charli Main says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    I might be wrong on this but its my understanding that any church that has Muslim prayers recited in it or Muslims pray in, automatically becomes a mosque which Muslims have the right to claim as their own, for all time.

    • mariam rove says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 3:51 pm

      Charli: An ex muslim I can tell you that I have never heard of this. That said they make the rules as they go and whatever fits that day.m

      • Charli Main says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 5:05 pm

        Mariam: thanks for reply which I´m sure is correct.
        My post was based on the following—— what do you think from as ex Muslim perspective ?????

        The Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab visited the church ( the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem ) and stopped to pray on the balcony but at the time of prayer he turned away from the church and prayed outside. HE FEARED THAT FUTURE GENERATIONS WOULD MISINTERPRET THIS GESTURE, TAKING IT AS A PRETEXT TO TURN THE CHURCH INTO A MOSQUE ( my emphasis )

        • mariam rove says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 5:27 pm

          Umar Ibn….
          This guy was extremely shrewd and well educated . That said Charli Muslims specially the practicing one will do anything to advance their cause. So my take on this is another deceitful action. M

  13. bobm says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 3:35 pm

    1 John 2:22… islam is antichrist…

  14. somehistory says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    He evidently does not take seriously the verse at 1 Corinthians 10:21, where Christians are told that one cannot partake of the ‘table of the Lord and the table of the demons or partake of the cup of the Lord and drink from the cup of the demons (paraphrased).”
    Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters ( Matthew 6:24).”
    Guess this guy has shown all just who he serves.

    • somehistory says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 3:58 pm

      All *whom* he serves. My eyes and mind are not working so well together today, so sorry for this and other typos.

      • mariam rove says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 4:07 pm

        It is ok! It is friday after all! M

        • somehistory says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 4:40 pm

          Thanks, Mr. Rove. I appreciate your kindnesses on this site and hope all is well with you and yours.

  15. Neil Jennison says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    The Church of England long since gave up teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    This should surprise nobody at all. The C of E allows members to believe what they like……in fact, it allows clergy to believe what they like.

    The Catholic Church under Pope Francis is only 25 years behind.

  16. Andrew says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 4:30 pm

    Don’t bother contacting him; he’s going straight to hell for this. What an outrageous offense to God and Jesus.

  17. Neil Jennison says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    It is a sad truth, that if you want to hear Christian, Catholic Orthodoxy, then there are some Catholic Churches that still teach it, a few more that don’t actively oppose it, and the rest are as heterodox as the C of E.

    I suggest that to find the Christian Truth these days, one must attend Society of St Pius X Masses.

    • Cynthia in California says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 4:39 pm

      Is “Credo in unum Deum” optional now in the Church of England? (I don’t know; that’s why I’m asking. thx)

      If so, may God help us all.

    • deja vu says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 4:47 pm

      I suggest that to find the Christian Truth these days, one must attend Society of St Pius X Masses.

      With resepct, there are many churches where you hear Biblical Christian orthodoxy preached – ours is one of them. The preaching of the Gospel is always a part of that. I am fortunate enough to attend a Baptist church which holds a high view of Scripture.

  18. Richie says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 4:34 pm

    This church must be further to the left than most UU churches

    • Cynthia in California says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 4:41 pm

      I attended a UU church briefly when I attended college/university in Atlanta. It really *was* pretty much praying “To Whom It May Concern,” as far as I could tell.

      But the church was the only one even close to what I could deal with within a walking distance. *sigh*

      • carlos danger says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 3:26 pm

        RE UU…..they believe in “one god at most.”

    • JMB says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 5:12 pm

      Notice also International Womens Day was involved. This takes that church from the left to the loony left.

  19. Richie says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 4:37 pm

    The vicar commited heresy and should be excommunicated from the church.

  20. thomas pellow says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 5:18 pm

    When is the reciprocal event when Christians get to pray to their God in East London mosque?

    A basic note for Mr Goddard:- there is no mutuality, and no reciprocity in Islam.

  21. thomas pellow says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 5:23 pm

    “Churches should not be used for Muslim worship ”

    by Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/03/13/churches-should-not-be-used-for-muslim-worship/

  22. JMB says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 5:32 pm

    Lets for just a moment pretend that this vicar had achieved his objective and had established some sort of powerful and far-reaching dialogue and understanding between Christianity and Islam. I would expect to see immediate results along the following lines;
    The powerful UK Islamic lobby will immediately send a high level delegation to Syria, Egypt and Iran to get an immediate stop to persecution of Christians and destruction of churches in those countries.
    This same Islamic lobby will send a high level delegation to Nigeria to stop Islamic atrocities there.
    UK Muslims will condemn all sexual abuse in the UK, they will offer fullest cooperation with the UK Police.
    Senior Islamic clerics in the UK will encourage Muslim women to discard their medieval robes and try an get them involved in community affairs, like volunteer at the local school and hospital or allow them to attend a morning tea and Bible study at their local church. (Like encourage them to be part of their adopted country)
    Sorry, but it is obvious that I am delving into the realms of fantasy.

    As for the term “UK Muslims”, it is a total anathema, it is all so wrong, how was this terrible situation ever allowed to come about? (Weak Churches and even weaker politicians are two obvious answers)

    • Demsci says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 9:31 pm

      Exactly JMB, IMO you nail it.

      Why are Muslims so shameless?! There are approx. 193 countries, 56 of them Islamic. Maybe 34 Western Democratic countries. Now if we look worldwide, what do we see happen?

      In their own Islamic Countries Muslims discriminate, censor, murder sometimes, or jail for blasphemy non-Muslims. They have propagandise for Islam, from the cradle, I might add. and how much immigration do they allow? Well, not much, Saudi’s will not even give lifelong expats, workers their passports, citizenship.

      And despite the fact that the Western countries let Muslims immigrate en masse, give them citizenship and complete equal rights, they still do not make ONE LITTLE ATTEMPT to redress the balance.

      Silver lining; Ibn Warraq in his book “defending the West” described the Western attitude as very positive and humble and endearing compared to the egoistic arrogant Islamic attitude.

  23. mariam rove says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 5:58 pm

    @Joseph: You can pray for me all you like my friend! I am very cool with that. Unlike Islam and the jihadists, I am not one to intrude into people personal belief. I was at my friend’s father’s and I sat through the whole thing in the church. They are devout Catholics. It is respect and it does not make me any less of an atheist! That said here is a great story for you:

    I am left handed. When I was a kid back in Iran 55 years ago!! My dad used to tie my left hand so I can become a rightly! He had 4th grade education! Obviously that did not work! A couple of years ago I had to a muslims funeral. As you know muslims must take their shoes off and you can imagine the stench!! Around 1 PM they started passing food around rice and stew and I was eating. The Imam came to me some Pakistani A… hole and told me it is better if I eat with my right hand. I asked him if he was married and he said know and I pormpltly to him to go and f…himself! I then went out and found a liquer store and bought a pint of vodka and poured in a bottle of water went back to the mosque and while he was preaching his BS I was getting a buzz!!!!!! M

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 5:57 pm

      “I am left handed. When I was a kid back in Iran 55 years ago!! My dad used to tie my left hand so I can become a rightly!”

      I suspect this kind of thing, and much worse, is rife in the Muslim world; for Muhammad seemed to have a superstitious phobia about southpaws (then add the fact that a Muslim is obliged by the Mohammedan totalitarian regime of hygiene to use his left hand for “unclean” things while using the right for “clean” things). While a prejudice against left-handers has been a factor in many cultures, including the West, the rest of the world (unlike Islam) progresses, and tries to shed those prejudices. I.e., no doubt in the Muslim world, not only is corporal punishment of children probably widespread, but among the offenses for which children are smacked, beaten, flogged, etc. is probably whenever a child exhibits signs that he or she is left-handed.

  24. ECAW says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 6:06 pm

    I would just like to thank Mr Spencer for restraining himself on this one.

  25. epistemology says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    Allah is NOT G’d, silly moron, Allah is a silly, impish moon idol. When will they ever learn?

  26. Wellington says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 6:24 pm

    No informed Christian, not one, should have any respect for Islam because Islam trashes Christian doctrines over and over again, two of such “trashings” being the Islamic take on the Trinity, which Islam equates with polytheism, an assessment completely at odds with Christianity’s own assessement of the Trinity; and the other here being the Islamic contention that Jesus (yet another Muslim, of course, before the last and greatest of Muslim prophets, blah, blah, blah) was NEVER crucified.

    And, let’s face it, Jesus minus crucifixion, let alone not being raised from the dead three days later, COMPLETELY invalidates the entire Christian faith. No, per Islam, someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place and, oh by the way, Jesus will come back at the end of the world to throw all Christians into Hell for deifying Him, since Jesus, per the Islamic take on this, was and is a very, very good Muslim.

    It is eminently understandable why a devout Christain could respect, would respect, many other faiths. For instance Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and, of course, Judaism. It is simply stupid (yes, stupid) for any devout and informed Christian to respect the Islamic faith. Doing so, as this Anglican vicar has, always reveals not only ignorance but a stupid, dangerous and often lethal ignorance.

    • Kepha says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 11:21 pm

      I take exception. I respect Islam the way I respect a rattler on a trail where I may be taking a hike.

      This being said, I believe that Islam is a false and Hellish religion with a so-called “ethical system” that blesses a lot that I would call very sinful.

      My take on Goddard is that he is a typical ignoramus of a liberal cleric who thinks that throwing a few verbal bricks at [Christian] “fundamentalists” makes him a sophisticated (Faux-siphticated?) theologian; while making requisite nods to Islam (a religion of People of Colour!!! Can’t be all bad!!!!) proves hiss bonafides as a “multicultural” and “tolerant” person. My guess is that he knows no more of Qur’an and Hadith than what some mamby-pamby hour-long special on comparative religion airs on the telly; and he probably knows even less of the Old and New Testaments (and the Thirty-Nine Articles thrown into the bargain).

      Don’t trust any Anglican cleric (especially if female or homosexual or both) from north of 20 degrees north latitude.

      • Kepha says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 11:23 pm

        While we’re at it, I’ll bet that smudge on his forehead is something he does for purely aesthetic reasons.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 5:50 pm

      Islam doesn’t merely trash the Trinity — it declares it to be a capital crime, and a casus belli (as it does (its erroneously interpreted) Jewish theology.

      When we then factor in the fact that Islam does not recognize Modernity and considers all Westerners to be People of the Book, we see that our very way of living and our very, mere existence is a capital crime and casus belli under Islam. Which is why we are the Dar-al-Harb in their eyes & worldview, perpetually at war with them (and therefore, they with us).

      Then we must factor in the fact that Muslims do not merely wage war in conventional manner, but deploy a whole galaxy of methods, including the stealth jihad, which in turn includes lying, deception, the false moderate, Hijra immigration-cum-infiltration-cum-invasion, and false assimilation. And of course this stealth jihad isn’t merely being deployed with no goal in mind; but as a parallel track coordinated with the ongoing violent jihad — terror attacks, civil unrest, and criminality. Since it is reasonable for us to suppose that they intend more and more horrible terror attacks (that will make 911 look like a picnic), and that in order for them to succeed in such attacks, they need precisely the breadth and depth of infiltration which their increasing immigration and assimilation offers them, the hideously systemic and metastasizing threat begins to dawn on us.

      Once again, Wellington curiously minimizes the actual, deadly, mortal, exigently and pragmatically dire nature of the threat (while talking robustly tough nonetheless).

  27. Gary says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    ‘He then asked the congregation to praise ‘the god that we love, Allah’

    ‘It is the same God, we share the same tradition.’

    What!!! The same God?!! The God I know sent His Son – Jesus Christ to die on a cross for the sins of the world.

    “Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’

    Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

    Acts 4:11-12

    allah… is no god. allah is none other than satan himself!

    As for sharing the same ‘tradition’ Reverend Giles Goddard, vicar of St John’s in Waterloo, central London, needs to ask himself what Boko Haram, ISIS, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, C.A.I.R. & the Muslim Brotherhood have planned for Jews & Christians.

    I can guarantee he’ll be disappointed in their… “traditions”

  28. Bezelel says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    As obvious as it is to people on JW that the Vicar is in the wrong, their are millions of uninformed that rely on people like him for their information.With all the scriptures that plainly contradict his behavior, he should really know better.Inclusive of where we come from remains pointless if we aren’t coming to a central message. You can sit in a garage for 10yrs and you will not become a car. If the people who enter the Church are not interested in the Christian message then they really need to go somewhere else until they are ready to listen. The Vicar has shown disrespect for his congregation as well as his own faith.

  29. Champ says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 7:09 pm

    Instead *stupid* should be written on his forehead …

    • Wellington says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 7:30 pm

      Agreed, Champ. “Useful idiot” wouldn’t be a bad choice either.

      • Champ says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 9:18 pm

        Indeed, Wellington!

        • Kepha says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 11:27 pm

          Wellington, Champ, I vote for “Ichabod” (Alas for the glory!–I Samuel 4:21-22) as the proper inscription for Goddard’s brow.

        • Champ says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 3:26 pm

          Good one, Kepha! 😀

  30. Norse Heathen says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 7:21 pm

    Get your house in order Christians. Otherwise you are all doomed.
    Heil Odin.

    • Kepha says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 11:29 pm

      Ya, Viss, min Norsker Landsman. We could use a good King Olav to give folks the choice of repentance or the sword. Can’t say that Old Eyepatch who is ultimately to be swallowed by Fenris doesn’t inspire much confidence in me.

      • Norse Heathen says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 12:16 am

        The twighlight of the Gods is imminent, but the Wierd and the Orlog remains.
        King Olaf was a copout. He took the easy road to power with moral legalism than by the might of his sword and the generosity of his purse. As for the rest, it is easier to lay your faults on this Lamb of God than to take responsibility for yourself. I do recall reading that Abraham’s people would slaughter animals and splash the blood all over their God’s alter and themselves in an attempt to be closer to him. How revolting, and people think pagans have peculiar habits. This Abrahamic God favors the 11 tribes of Israel, of which many of you are not members of. It is written somewhere in revelations.
        Yes Ragnarok is the end of the Gods of man but the ultimate power will endure. My brother MKG says it is the TAO. His mind tends to be more open than mine. Whether you want to accept it or not, we are your allies in this struggle.

        • voegelinian says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:41 pm

          What struggle? This isn’t a computer game.

        • Kepha says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:55 pm

          @Heathen:

          As for the Biblical God’s favor to the Israelites, he also told their forefather Abraham that in his seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Paul explains it better than anyone else.

          As for eschatology–“Of old thou laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment…”(Ps. 102:25-25). Hebrews 1 applies these same verses to the Son. And as for the Dao–

          太初有道, 道与上帝同在, 道就是上帝。(John 1:1 in Chinese. The fourth, fifth, and eleventh hanzi are _dao_.)

          No, Good King Olav was no copout. He recognized whose God was greatest.

          And why do you scoff at the blood sacrifices of ancient Israel? They pointed forward to the one whom John the Baptist announced as “the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”–after whose sacrifice on the cross, we should note, there is no further need for blood sacrifices.

          Besides, it is your religion (and the one my mother’s ancestors gave up ca. 1000) that sacrificed males of every known species –and delighted in war and killing every bit as much as the followers of the FAP (false Aran prophet). Indeed, Saxo Grammaticus, Adam of Bremen, and Snorri Sturlosson all agree that Gamla Uppsala in Sweden was a site of such rites, including the ritual sacrifice of heathen king back in the day (no, this is not a Svensker-ver-en-Norsker-med-hjarrer-slutt-utt joke). Archaeologists also agree that many of the “bog people” preserved in Danish and Schleswig-Holstein bogs were sacrificed to Hertha, the Great Goddess.

      • Bezelel says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 7:54 am

        Kepha, A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse.

        • Norse Heathen says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:09 am

          Just as a deaf man can be a good boxer, a blind horse can still hear and smell bullshit. That is exactly what people are arguing and killing eachother over. Who’s bullshit smells the best.

        • Bezelel says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 9:54 pm

          @Heathen, Not to argue with your metaphor but you’ll have to admit that one can see better with the lights on than with a flashlight. That is the bottom line to this verbal exchange. Like it or not Christians know something that you don’t. That is not a judgement but rather a statement of fact. You see I also already know that I can’t explain it to your satisfaction anymore than I could describe what peanutbutter tastes like to someone who has never seen a peanut. So believe what you will and I will know what I know.

    • Demsci says

      Mar 15, 2015 at 12:35 pm

      Norse Heathen, Westerners are also Atheists, Agnosts, Darwinists in big number, remember?

      The one common interest we in the West, that are Non-Muslim and aware of the Islamic threat, have is “maintaining and improving the Democratic system. OK?

      But in that system we have to have 51 % majorities and these are still against all out defense against Islam.

      And I respect the wisdom of the masses despite everything.

      Now consider; recognizing the Islamic threat; so, what IF they conquer parts of Europe???!!!

      Then the rest of Europe will surely have the 51 % majority and the resolve to fight back!!! Give up parts of Europe, a giving up that is really done by people different from Democracy-defenders, it is done by disinterested, careless, reckless, delusional people, who weigh us down in their half-heartedness and self-hate. I don’t want to save them from themselves!

      and gain a galvanized democratic state; both Germany and Japan hugely underestimated the might of a democratic nation, finally resolved, in majority to fight back! All Germany and Japan and now Russia and China had wore subservient populations, but we Democratic Nations, at our best we voluntarily fight as a majority at times!

      And now, look at the power of technology, look at the potential despair of Muslim supremacists as their window of opportunity to conquer the whole world closes fast as high-tech companies outpower them easily and more every day. Why, Israel alone is more sophisticated than the whole Islamic world!!!

      Muslims winning a few victories, cities, countries, what does it mean? Once other democratic countries reach 51 % majority true loyal Democratic Citizens, the Islamic chance of conquering the whole world is very small.

      And if many Muslims realize THAT, why would they care about the odd temporary victory and territorial progress? I really think it is all or nothing for them, and “getting it all” get’s less and less probable by the day. So I hope they then give the whole thing up and choose for cooperation, or who knows, apostasy.

  31. Oliver says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    To be fair Allah just means The God in Arabic, and some English speaking Muslims say “God”. Muslims also state they worship the god of Abraham, so in theory he is the same god, they just have different theories about how he likes to be worshiped, his exact nature (ie. they don’t think he’s a trinity) and who his prophets are (they think Mohammed was the last one).

    I agree there are some problematic Koran verses when it comes to interfaith with Christians, unless they’re Unitarians.. However I’ve been hanging out online with some “liberal” Muslims, who try to interpret Islam in as tolerant and progressive a way as possible and they’re nice people, who don’t want to shove their religion down people’s throats. But I think I should ask them about that aspect (how the Koran is pretty negative about Christian beliefs and do they think “interfaith” is possible). Also many of them are sceptical about the value of the hadiths. which were written a long time after Mohammed’s death and one in particular hates Bukhari, who he thinks must have had something against Mohammed because he was always portraying him in a bad light…

    • Wellington says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 8:34 pm

      Some problematic Koran verses? That’s like saying there are some problematic Mein Kampf verses (N.B., Winston Churchill, an immensely well read man and author of over fifty books, referred to Mein Kampf as “the new Koran”). And, unlike the Bible (which admittedly I’m not the biggest fan of), the Koran is always prescriptive while the Bible is often only descriptive.

      Ask your “liberal” Muslim associates if they think that a Muslim who converts to another faith should be killed. Hopefully, you and and they know that not a single school of Islamic theology to the present day, not one, be it Sunni or Shiite, has repudiated this heinous doctrine. And then query your liberal Muslim friends whether they think someone should be harmed or killed for making fun of Mohammed? While you’re at it, ask your Muslm friends what they think of Mohammed never having a single sexual desire denied to him by Allah, including for his own daughter-in-law, Zaynab. Really, and no offense, but I think, Olliver, you seek to exculpate the spiritual fascism which is Islam by way of pointing to “nice Muslims.” MIght as well point to “nice Neo-Nazis,” “nice KKK members,” or “nice Marxists.” And forget the hadiths, full of rot as they are. The Koran alone is full of rot, full of hate. It’s disgusting. One knows this or should know it.

      • Oliver says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 8:44 pm

        I’m seeking to exculpate Islam; no not really, actually I’m aware of all the negative aspects and joined a liberal Muslim forum that I found because I felt that I was starting to obsess over Islam too much and also feel negative towards people who look like they might be Muslim, and I wanted to get a more balanced view. One thing about Islam though is you say “no schools of theology etc…” but Muslims don’t actually have to follow a particular school of theology and there’s no Muslim “pope”, so who’s to say people who try to take progressive interpretations are actually wrong? Also I’ve asked most of your questions already and they said nothing in the Koran says to kill apostates, that’s from the hadiths – which I think turns out to be correct. They pointed to verses that suggest that an apostate might change their mind and come back to Islam, for example, which they can hardly do if they’re dead. And no they don’t think people should be killed for making fun of Mohammed, they think conservative Muslims idolise Mohammed too much and he was just a messenger.

        • Ernie Banks says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 9:00 pm

          This clown needs to be excomunicated from the Anglican church. Any sensible reading of his vows says he’s violated them.

        • Bezelel says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 9:00 pm

          islam is not Abrahamic. It never was and never will be.

        • Anna says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:20 am

          Oliver, :

          Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. Sura 16:106

          Yes the killing of apostates in Hadith :

          Ibn Abbaas said : The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.” Al-Bukhary (number 6922)

          Problem is within Islam there are many confusions and different translations although muslims claim allah was consistent and muslims claim the Christians are divided and they are not. ( hmmmm)

          They are sneaky. Pull out certain verses when appropriate.Therefore muslims can claim to be peaceful and tolerant pulling out early verses and if they want to prove islam is intolerant, pull out later verses of
          Mohammad. They can pick and choose and are always “right.”
          Handy huh ?

          By the way : the quran was only written by mohammad.( not proven but in same time period) Can never be compared with the Bible which was written over THOUSANDS of years by many different writers. Important point many miss.
          If musims want to compare Christianity then instead of making their own stories up cos mohammad said so, they should only compare the actual words of Mo with the actual Words of Jesus. Only fair.
          (Oh, I forgot, Muslims say the Bible has been corrupted.! Well debate totally useless then ” Mo will always win on baseless non-facts and imagining! LOL sigh )
          Wow, incredible ! How you can even take these guys seriously with their heavenly brothel, let alone their other crazy superstitions is quite a feat !
          I have better things to do myself,but, okay…

        • Wellington says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:51 am

          Anna and gravenimage, Oliver, have provided you with enough material and so I won’t add anything else except to say that the best thing any Muslim can do where religion is concerned is leave Islam completely. It is beyond reform, beyond redemption. There is nothing good in it that can’t be found elsewhere and there is much bad in it that is hard to find anywhere else.

        • Babs says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 6:36 am

          Oliver, you might care to ask your liberal Muslim forum colleagues whether they pray the salat, how many times a day, and whether they know what they are saying, or, most importantly, whether they would alter the salat in any way:

          Within the salat is an invocation to their allah to punish the people of the book (that means Jews and Christians) who are preventing others from coming to Islam.

          I make a good argument about whether there can exist a “liberal” Islam here:

          http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2015/03/comparing-prayers-jewish-christian-and.html

          notably that whether or not the Muslim actually knows what he is saying, the salat represents and influences Islam’s view of “the other.”

        • sinantara says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 6:59 am

          Just a messenger?
          The hadith included by al-Hakim in Al-Mustadrak and by al-Baihaqi in Dala`il al- Nubuwwa from the narration of Umar Ibn al-Khattab [may Allah be pleased with him], who said, “The Prophet [pbuh] said, “When Adam sinned he said, O Allah! I ask for Your forgiveness for the sake of Muhammad (pbuh).” Allah asked him, “How do you know Muhammad (pbuh) when I have not yet created him?” He (Adam) said, “O Allah! After you created me and breathed into me of your soul I raised my head and saw ‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah’ written on the Throne. I then came to know that You would not put anyone’s name next to Yours except the name of the one who is dearest to You from among creation.” Allah said, “O Adam! You have spoken the truth. Indeed, he [Muhammad] is the dearest to me from among all creation. Supplicate to me through his sake for indeed I have forgiven you. If it were not for Muhammad, I would not have created you” [Al-Hakim declared it authentic and al-Taqi as-Subki declared it fair in Shifa` as- Siqam).

        • M S case says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 8:34 pm

          The whole problem with islam is that lit is of and by the devil…mohammed , if he actually existed, must have received his vision from one of the devil’s angles Not Gabriel PLEASE everyone try and understqand that islam is not and never will be a religion it is a murderous CULT.

          . Only a CULT would have verses in a book that condone killing…I do agree that God , in the old Testament times, killed a lot of people, using the Jews and others,do his work for him. Sometimes they obeyed and sometimes they didn’t………When they didn’t do as he told them they got in trouble. BUT……..I don’t find anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus said to kill anyone for any reason especially if they turned away from him. He did however let any, who failed to be true to his teachings, know what their fate would be…Hell and damnation.but he didn’t order their death. They ordered their own death…
          Now this. If I leave my church and join up with another No one is going to put a “hit” out on me. I will still be following my faith. Now if anybody can wrap islam in a pure religion please let me know.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:19 pm

          Wellington, I agree that Islam is beyond reform and redemption, certainly in any practicable way.

          I have also found that in all but a possible handful of cases, these “reformers” are actually more intent on whitewashing Islam than actually reforming it, in any case. This is certainly the situation with someone like Yuksel.

          Kudos to all those who have actually had the courage to leave Islam and reclaim their humanity.

        • voegelinian says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 10:50 pm

          Re: Oliver

          As Judge Judy (Peace Be Upon Her) is wont to say, “When it doesn’t make sense, it’s probably not true.”

          Only in the span of his first two comments (which I now see is but the tip of an industrious iceberg of commentary, bringing back the good old days on JW when we had sly Islamopologists come in to actually engage (read: embroil and entangle) the room in a multifarious engagement with other commenters), Oliver presents a disposition on Islam that doesn’t add up (which when added to his affectation of disarmingly polite, innocent sincerity leads one reasonably to suspect a passive-aggressive slyness going on).

          Thus, for example, we have in Oliver’s first comment, his remarkably mild language of disapproval of Islam (which commenters Wellington and gravenimage, among others, easily detected), built upon a markedly anodyne understanding of Islamic theology (cf. his first paragraph), an understanding seemingly utterly clueless of the fact that Islamic theology is directly and pointedly anti-Christian theology and anti-Jewish theology, not merely abstractly or theoretically, but in terms of fanatical hatred – all easily shown from the Koran. Oliver’s bizarrely mild language about the Koran —

          “I agree there are some problematic Koran verses when it comes to interfaith with Christians…”

          and

          “the Koran is pretty negative about Christian beliefs”

          — couple with his gullible naivete about what a few “liberal” Muslims tell him online, do not square with what he then wrote in response to Wellington’s response to his first comment:

          “…I’m aware of all the negative aspects and joined a liberal Muslim forum that I found because I felt that I was starting to obsess over Islam too much and also feel negative towards people who look like they might be Muslim…”

          You see, what doesn’t square here is that Oliver claims that he was “obsessing” about Islam before he attained his more enlightened and milder view; but if he was truly obsessing about Islam, this would have led him at the very least to gain knowledge of such basics as, for example, Islam Theology 101 (which makes Jewish and Christian theology a capital crime and a casus belli — unless, of course, if there’s a framework of dhimmitude under submission to Islamic domination which would spare the lives of a certain number of Jews and Christians) – not to mention a robust appreciation for the hideously fanatical, hateful, and violent character of the Koran (rather than his curiously mild impression).

        • Mo says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 11:17 pm

          @ voegelinian

          “Re: Oliver”

          Wow, I salute you for going through this so thoroughly!

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm

          Voegelinian, after reading all of Oliver’s posts here, I believe you are spot on in your analysis.

      • Oliver says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 9:04 pm

        Also, there seems to he quite a variation in Koran translations. For example there’s the Al Hilali one that ostensibly approved by Saudi Arabia and pondered by them, hence early found, that translates everything as intolerably as possible, making it worse by inserting in brackets interpretations from scholars and hadiths and either copious footnotes from them. It’s sslafist and a minus for hating non Muslims. But then there’s something like the recent Yuksel ‘reformist’ one, which makes a fresh approach making no use of hadiths and traditional interpretations (either to add to the text or in its choices of how to translate the text), and reads in a less inflammatory way.

        • Oliver says

          Mar 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm

          Sorry about the nonsense in the above post, thanks to my stupid phone that likes to insert words like “ostensibly” for no reason… It was supposed to say that the Al-Hilali one was approved by Saudi Arabia and sponsored by them and that it is a manual for hating non-Muslims.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:07 am

          Yuksel may not be the “reformer” you think he is. He is against any defense against Jihad—in fact, he attacks America and the West relentlessly. He claims that defense against Jihad constitutes a new Holocaust—against Muslims. He holds the concept of “western civilization” in contempt, which he puts in sneer quotes. He also rages against “Kafirs” in general, and “Zionists” in particular.

          Here’s some rather disturbing stuff from him re Qur’an “reform”:

          http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=30658

          He vociferously denies that anything can be removed from the Qur’an. He also claims that the Golden Rule—which he sneeringly calls “the so-called Golden Rule”—is “not realistic”.

          The inimitable Robert Spencer also weighs in here.

          And here’s Yuksel’s disturbing exchange with an Anti-Jihadist:

          http://www.islam-watch.org/Larry/Reformist-Quran-Putting-Happy-Face-on-Evil.htm

          Most importantly, he includes many examples of from Yuksel’s translation of the Qur’an.

          I will just include one here—Qur’an 9:5, the infamous Sura of the Sword:

          “so when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, take them, surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is forgiving, compassionate”

          Hard to interpret *that* as moderate.

          And there are other verses supporting slavery and pedophilia.

          But how could it be otherwise? No translation can really soften this savagery.

        • ECAW says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 2:55 am

          Yuksel? I’ll have to look it up.

          Does Allah still intend to torture me and my kids with fire and molten metal for eternity?

      • sam says

        Mar 13, 2015 at 10:36 pm

        buybull full of violent verses…jesus luke 19 ‘ bring my deniers before me and kill them..oy vey

        • jihad me at hello says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:14 am

          Hi Sam, my suggestion is you read the entire chapter that you quoted that fragment of a verse from. Jesus is telling a parable (a fictional story to demonstrate a morale or spiritual truth). The fictional King, from that fictional story (parable) speaks those words.

          Sam, don’t believe something to be true or a certain way just because your Imam or Islamic literature says it is so. Read the New Testament for yourself.

        • Western Canadian says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:47 am

          Funny that a muslim would call himself ‘Sam’.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 2:52 pm

          What crap. Luke 19 has Jesus *telling a parable*. It is not Jesus who has his naysayers killed; it is a figure in the parable.

          Compare and contrast with the appalling “Prophet” Muhammed, who had his critics assassinated.

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 3:49 pm

          @ sam

          “buybull”

          What are you, 7 years old? Grow up, you insufferable (and blaspheming) infant. Learn how to spell the name of the book you so despise. (And have never read.)

          ” full of violent verses”

          How would you know? You’ve never read it. And you know you haven’t.

          “jesus luke 19 ‘ bring my deniers before me and kill them..oy vey”

          How pathetic you Christophobes are.

          I love it when people are so ignorant that they actually think that a parable is a direct command!

        • deja vu says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:22 am

          Sam: It is unwise to quote Bible verses from a list put out by Muslims. You only succeed in showing your lack of knowledge and understanding.

          Jesus told many parables (stories with a spiritual purpose) because His listeners were often unable to read or write. They are not to be taken literally, as you have done, but as events in a story from which people could apply to themselves and their lives. There is much wisdom in them.

          The parable you refer to is one of three on the same subject. They were addressed to the Pharisees, the Jewish religious leaders who hated Jesus and were planning to kill Him. All three concern God’s righteous judgement of those who reject His free offer of salvation.

          I won’t go into detail because English is obviously not your first language. Why not read the New Testament in your own language so that you can understand the meaning for yourself?

      • Amy Soldier says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 7:15 am

        The hadiths aren’t rot. How would anyone know about Mo and Aisha without the devout Bukhari to inform us throughout these last centuries?

        Keep your emotions in check, Sir Wellington.

        • jihad me at hello says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 1:02 pm

          100% agree with you, the Hadith’s are rot. The Hadith, brought to us unfortunily by that magical chain of transmitters, more like chain of Chinese whispers.

          Imagine if I started today to write the biography of someone who allegedly lived in 1865 and I wasn’t drawing upon previously written material because none have ever existed. It was me asking my Dad, who in turn had asked his uncle, who had spoken to so and so, who spoke to a friend and on and on it goes for a 150 years. How trust worthy would that account be? Not very. What chance would there be that additions, embellishments and omissions happen? A certainty. How likely is it that one of these transmitters projected an agenda of theirs on to 1865 man by attributing an event and/or saying to alleged 1865 man when they could benefit greatly by doing so? 100%. What is the chance that this aledged 1865 person resembled anything like what is described in the story or if he even existed at all? Very likely.

          Just imagine if 1450 years from now this bogus story was a major part of a belief system for over 20% of the earths population? Sad and tragic.

          The Hadith’s; sad, tragic and to be totally disregarded.

        • Wellington says

          Mar 17, 2015 at 3:40 pm

          Amy Soldier: You completelty missed my point to Oliver, it being that both the hadiths AND the Koran are full of rot so that even if you consider the hadiths invalid or of little account (as some do but certainly not me), there is still so much crap in the Koran alone that it types Islam as a heinous belief system.

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:19 am

        It’s pretty hard to reply to posts on here some times, the way the comments nest inside each other and don’t always give an option to reply… Anyway, well, as I said, the people I met don’t subscribe to the idea that you should copy everything Mohammed did or that he was perfect, but they also tend not to like the hadiths or think they should be trusted, which is where we read about things about Mohammed”s sex life etc.

        I think they have a wide variety or ways in which they pray, and I don’t think that the Koran is prescriptive about it, that’s more from tradition. It just says pray three times a day, as far as I know, and doesn’t say exactly how to do it.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 3:00 pm

          Oliver, the “Prophet” Muhammed is a pretty horrifying figure in the Qur’an, as well. It is not as though he is a marvelous fellow there, and the only things that show him in a brutal light are the Hadiths.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 10:44 pm

      Oliver, I believe you have *massively* underestimated the threat of Islam. And it is not just the Hadith that cast the “Prophet” in a bad light—assuming one considers a violent pedophile slave-trading rapist warlord to be a bad thing, of course.

      • Jay Boo says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 12:58 pm

        gravenimage
        I have had occasional face-to-face conversations with the kind of ‘liberal’ Muslims that Oliver mentions. I am sure that there are other commenters here that have done so as well. Very nice people to chat with.
        However, some of them, perhaps all of them seem to have a certain rationalizing mindset.

        When I mentioned ISIS butchering civilians and forcing child brides into sex slavery I got an angry push back of “Why don’t they just leave?” They prefer to blame the victims for making Islam look bad. The sad thing was it was not even a Muslim who led the chorus but a Muslim butt kisser who greased the skids so they could all sing in harmony.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 7:57 pm

          That doesn’t surprise me, Jay Boo—appalling as it is. It is also, of course, bullsh*t. Not only should the victims *not have to flee*, leaving behind property and jobs and partnerships and most of their worldly goods, and winding up as refugees—but Islamic groups like ISIS have *prevented* people from fleeing, blocking the routes to Iraq, Turkey, and Syria, and murdering those who try to escape.

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 8:07 pm

          @ Gravenimage

          “but Islamic groups like ISIS have *prevented* people from fleeing, blocking the routes to Iraq, Turkey, and Syria, and murdering those who try to escape.”

          Those poor souls. Can you imagine how terrifying that must be? Where do you go? What do you do when you’ve left with nothing but whatever you’re wearing, and whatever meager possessions you’re able to carry with you?

          My heart breaks for these people, especially the children. Or maybe the parents are the ones who are the worst off. Children at least don’t understand what is happening and what will happen. Adults do.

          I don’t have my own children, But I have nieces, a nephew and children that I’ve taken care of through the years. I can’t imagine holding them while trying to flee from these Muslim savages.

          Ugh! It makes me so angry. And still the world is doing so very little! I don’t understand it!

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:51 pm

          I know, Mo. It reminds me of the Holocaust. Not even allowing their victims to flee is the final stage of savagery.

          And yes—I have certainly imagined myself and my loved ones in just these dire straights.

          And how many times have the victims of Islam faced just this, echoing down through the centuries?

          That the West is not—at the very least—rushing to take in these Infidel refugees is appalling.

          And now that Islam is so far resurgent, we are going to see more and more of these horrors.

        • Mo says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:56 pm

          @ Gravenimage

          “And now that Islam is so far resurgent, we are going to see more and more of these horrors.”

          Yes, indeed. I guess everyone’s just of the mind, “Oh, it’ll never happen here!”

          I’m guessing those people currently enduring this hellish nightmare at one point thought the same thing.

        • Mo says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:58 pm

          @ Jay Boo

          “When I mentioned ISIS butchering civilians and forcing child brides into sex slavery I got an angry push back of “Why don’t they just leave?” They prefer to blame the victims for making Islam look bad. The sad thing was it was not even a Muslim who led the chorus but a Muslim butt kisser who greased the skids so they could all sing in harmony.”

          Wow. Denial really is such a powerful force!

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 16, 2015 at 12:43 pm

          Mo wrote, replying to Jay Boo:

          Wow. Denial really is such a powerful force!
          …………………………

          Actually, this is *much worse* than denial, Mo. Denial would be if they insisted that the story must surely be exaggerated.

          When anyone reaches the point of actually blaming the victim, it is something considerably uglier than denial.

        • Mo says

          Mar 16, 2015 at 11:26 pm

          @ gravenimage

          “Actually, this is *much worse* than denial, Mo. Denial would be if they insisted that the story must surely be exaggerated.
          When anyone reaches the point of actually blaming the victim, it is something considerably uglier than denial.”

          A good point!

    • Anna says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 11:50 pm

      Goodness they have no problem with Mohammad in the Quran then ? Er..those words dont put Mo in a bad light then ask them.
      Hadith is just the story behind the quran.

      Before these ” nice” taqiyya artists influence you even more, read pthe quran for yourself.
      Always easier to check out what you are being sold right ?
      I have. Extremely boring all that absurd flowery fakeness, but with some discipline it is possible.
      I was not impressed. I was horrified. Amazed it is even still around inthis day and age and was not consigned to the trash centuries ago and only a few left , collecting dust in some stuffy museum to show kids ” what primitive barbarians used to believe in the 7th century”

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:11 am

        The Koran verse you cited about apostacy doesn’t say anything about how they should be punished, it implies more like that they will be punished in the afterlife (other versions use words like “doom”, which usually refer to going to hell. And then it also depends on what you consider apostacy is, some people say it’s up to God to decide who’s acceptable or not, not humans.

        And I don’t think the people I met are ‘Taqiyya merchants”, can’t you even imagine the idea that some people are Muslim but also have progressive values and try to reconcile the two? You must have a crappy view of human nature if you think that’s impossible. Using the less inflammatory translations is one way, interpreting warlike verses as having been revealed in particular contexts, at times of conflict, is another. I don’t think people who deliberately define themselves as liberal or progressive Muslims are just pretending about it, though I don’t think they are the majority either.

        However I do think some supposedly “moderate” Muslims do just try to hide the more unpleasant aspects and pretend extremism has nothing to do with Islam. And others just haven’t studied the texts much and aren’t well informed. But to be fair, being Muslim mainly involves believing in one god and that Mohammed was a messenger reminding the Arabs to worship him (also other stuff like praying regularly and giving to charity). You can do that without supporting Jihad or cutting off of hands, or flogging or hating people of other faiths etc.

        Re. hadiths, they were written 200 years or more after Mohammed died, from hearsay, so there seems to be an increasing “Koran only” movement. As for how we would know about Mohammed without them, Islam isn’t supposed to be about worshipping Mohammed, it’s supposed to be the message in the Koran that it’s based on, not him. Trying to copy Mohammed as he seems in the hadiths is one of the biggest things stopping some Muslims from living in the modern world properly.

        I agree that the Koran consigns disbelivers to a firey hell, but then so does the New Testament. And there is the odd verse suggesting that maybe some Jews and Christians might make the cut too. Having said which I know one liberal Muslim who doesn’t believe in an afterlife at all and thinks the references to heaven and hell are metaphorical.

        Also, more progressive Muslims don’t want sharia replacing democratic laws, in the same way that Jews today aren’t calling for the Old Testament laws – supposed to have been revelaed by God – to be brought back.

        • Demsci says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 9:48 am

          //”But to be fair, being Muslim mainly involves believing in one god and that Mohammed was a messenger reminding the Arabs to worship him (also other stuff like praying regularly and giving to charity). You can do that without supporting Jihad or cutting off of hands, or flogging or hating people of other faiths etc”//

          Oliver, if they can do that, obeying Allah in their mind, can they do that in the 34 democratic countries, also obeying it’s constitutions and governments, choosing them OVER the likes of ISIS or the Ayatollah’s or the Taliban??? I mean, really, like Mayor Aboutaleb says he can?

          That is all I and many others really want from them, but to show it they have to: declare it very clearly and really choose sides, FOR the democratic countries and leaders, AGAINST the totalitarians, violent Muslims, their co-reiigionists, but not their co-democrats.

          Neutrality of Muslims in Western Democratic Nations gets less and less appreciated by loyal citizens as it seems more and more to look like treason, what with the international ubiguitous internet-relations nowadays.

          But Aboutaleb WAS clear, he was saying that obeying God AND the Dutch constitution was doable for self-confessed Muslims.

    • jayell says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:35 am

      Hello Oliver. May I quote you? “To be fair Allah just means The God in Arabic, and some English speaking Muslims say “God”. “….If my information is right, that’s not quite true, I fear. The word ‘Allah’ is a contraction of Al (= ‘the’) + something or the other in Arabic, referring (I believe), to the Moon God. Muslims may chose to use the word ‘God’ as a loose translation for ‘Allah’, but it’s not the same concept at all. It’s like using the word ‘car’ in relation to a 4-wheeled vehicle when the concept is really a ‘dumper truck’. Then you say….”Muslims also state they worship the god of Abraham, so in theory he is the same god, they just have different theories about how he likes to be worshiped, his exact nature (ie. they don’t think he’s a trinity) and who his prophets are (they think Mohammed was the last one).”….. Er, no. Muslims can say whatever they like, but the truth sadly is that Mohammed randomly plagiarised the Judeo-Christian texts for his own purposes EITHER as a cynically-contrived con-trick to concoct a ‘spiritual front’ in order to present himself as ‘the last Prophet’ as a means of furthering his warlord-type political/territorial ambitions; OR he was a seriously deluded and intellectually-challenged megalomaniac who could not in any case relate properly to the texts (I believe that he was actually illiterate). Or a bit of both. Whatever, the Judeo-Christian texts have been mangled in some kind of uninformed cherry-picking process and in no way present the correct Abrahamic or Christian truths. A modern-day parallel would be, say, Tony Blair claiming to represent true Labour Party principles. Get the joke? So any muslim claims that we are all somehow ‘brothers in faith’ are, I’m afraid, likely to be spurious. In the end you have to look at the founders of the various faiths to get a true idea of their respective values. Jesus was a highly gifted, perceptive, respectful and basically law-abiding intellectual who sacrificed himself for his ideals for the betterment of mankind. Mohammed was an devious, unscrupulous, amoral murdering criminal.

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:28 am

        I’m not sure where the moon god theory comes from, but if you go by the Koran it’s teaching to worship the god of Abraham and doesn’t mention the moon. In any case Yahweh was also just one tribal deity among others if you go back far enough, and is said to have had a wife.

        Re. Jesus, I do agree that he was much more pleasant than Mohammed as we learn about him in the hadiths etc. However without rose tinted glasses it’s easy to present a less positive picture than the one you give. You could say he was a fanatical cult leader who persuaded men to leave their families and jobs to follow him and said that if you do not hate your families and your own life you are not truly my followers.

        He also said give up all your worldly goods and don’t plan for the future, and God will provide, which is not practical advice. And he said crazy things like cut off your hand or gouge out your eye if it causes you to sin, because otherwise you are at risk of hell. People might now claim this was just a metaphor, but we don’t know if it was or not.

        He was also a false prophet who claimed the world was coming to an end shortly (in the lifetimes of some of his listeners), and it clearly didn’t. And he introduced fear of a firely eternal hell into Judaism, which didn’t teach it before and he tended to get angry with people (or whole towns) and consign them to it if they didn’t like his/his followers’ preaching.

        • jayell says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:16 am

          Hello again Oliver. Read my post properly. I said that, according to an informed source (that I am unfortunately unable to name at the moment) the word ‘Allah’ is apparently derived from the name of an ancient Arabic tribal God, probably (according to the source) the Moon God. Hence the crescent symbol for Islam. No way did I suggest that Abraham worshipped the moon or that there is any such mention of the moon in Islamic texts or the Old Testament. I don’t doubt what you say about Yahweh, but I’m not sure how relevant that is. I think saying that Jesus was ‘much more pleasant than Mohammed’ could rank as the understatement of the year, but I am only going on ‘facts’ as recorded in the texts without recourse to ‘rose tinted spectacles’. You could indeed say that Jesus was a ‘fanatical cult leader’ if that is the spin you choose to put on a reading of the evidence, but many might think that a somewhat inventive interpretation. He did indeed persuade men to leave their jobs and their families; I believe it was just twelve men who apparently didn’t need much persuading; I think you’ll find this sort of thing is not uncommon where people are strongly attracted to ‘worthy’ causes. I would agree that JC went a bit over the top when he spoke about ‘hating families and your own life’ when obviously trying to make a point about commitment to his cause, but he would not be the only one to over-state a case in order to ram a point home. According to the evidence, he didn’t make a habit of breaking up families or encouraging suicide. Likewise the bit about cutting off a hand or gouging out an eye, but then we all say things like “I’d give my right arm for that” and not actually mean it literally. If JC had actually gone round gouging out eyes and cutting off hands (as Mohammed actually did) then you could hold it against him. He didn’t, so you can reasonably take it as a bit of hyperbole. Have some sense! I’m not sure I recall the bit about prophesying the end of the world ‘within a short time’, but we all know it’s going to end when the sun blows up, if not before, so it’s not entirely a false prophecy. Please enlighten me about JC’s alleged time-scale. I’m sure you must be right about the ‘eternal hell’ bit if you say so, but some might say that ‘hell’ can actually be here and now and seem like eternity. I would suggest that there more than a few girls in Rotherham ans elsewhere who might know a thing or two about that. And he ‘got angry’ with people and towns that rejected his teaching? If you’ve done your thinking and you’re honestly convinced you’ve got ‘the answer’ to everything, and people then tell you to ‘p*ss off’, wouldn’t YOU get a bit miffed? But notice that he ‘shook the dust off his feet’ and left them to it. It was THEIR decision at the end of the day. He did NOT go back with an army, decapitate a few hundred men, rape their wives and abuse their children and nick all their possessions for himself and his chums.

        • jihad me at hello says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 2:30 pm

          Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy and Jesus did not ask him to give up his wealth. Jesus had the ability to read people and know what their stumbling blocks were. In many cases peoples stumbling block was money.

          Who really introduced the fiery concept of the after life was the Roman western Church when the scriptures were translated into Latin.
          Terms like Sheol and hades, which are terms for the realm of the dead and Gehenna the final place/condition for the unrighteousness exist after the general resurrection were mingled and labeled hell. In Orthodox Christianity where these western Latin influences didn’t exist, Gehenna or whatever you’d like to call it is the condition the unrighteous experience when they are unprepared to be in the presents of the divine light of Gods love. This same light is bliss for the saints/Saints. There is no God designed, owned and operated torture chamber.

          The statements you refer to that Jesus used are metaphor.

        • Western Canadian says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 10:28 pm

          “He was also a false prophet who claimed the world was coming to an end shortly (in the lifetimes of some of his listeners), and it clearly didn’t. And he introduced fear of a firely eternal hell into Judaism, which didn’t teach it before and he tended to get angry with people (or whole towns) and consign them to it if they didn’t like his/his followers’ preaching.”

          Congratulations, you just proved you know NOTHING about the New Testament, and are a ignorant loud mouth.

          Hell is neither Jewish nor Christian, and the source documents from neither consigns anyone to it……

      • jayell says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:56 am

        Sorry, I meant to say something about the ‘Trinity’ business, which seems to get the muslims agitated (question – what DOESN’T get the muslims agitated?). It’s stated quite clearly in Christian theology that the ‘Trinity’ is NOT a ‘belief in three Gods’ but a way of relating to ‘God’ through a projection of human social psychology in the same way that humans relate to each other by seeing each other as ‘Parent’ (= ‘Father’), ‘Child’ (= ‘Son’) and ‘fellow-Adult’ (like a ‘friend’ = ‘Holy Ghost’); or a combination; relating on all three levels = a complete relationship. All very subliminal and perhaps a bit presumptuous on our part but try explaining THAT to muslims next time they start throwing their weight around theologically. Probably won’t get anywhere.

        • Oliver says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:08 am

          Actually, that’s probably how a lot of Christians these days try to explain it away but the doctrine of the Trinity is more than that. It says God is three distinct “persons” in one “substance”. And don’t ask me what the heck that’s supposed to mean, because I don’t think anyone’s ever been able to explain it in a way that makes sense, and you’re just meant to take it on faith.

        • jayell says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:03 pm

          “It says God is three distinct “persons” in one “substance”. And don’t ask me what the heck that’s supposed to mean,…” It means effectively what it says. Three identities within one entity, just as one human being can be simultaneously a ‘Parent’, ‘Adult’ and ‘Child’ depending on social context and/or the perspective of your own relationship to that person. The doctrine of the Trinity is attempting to project this typically three-faceted human identity onto the Almighty so that we can attempt to have some kind of ersatz ‘meaningful’ relationship with the aforementioned ‘Almighty’ by bringing the ‘Almighty’ into our terms of social reference (which as far as I am concerned is not really ‘on’). So in the end it’s just ‘projection’, which is perhaps dangerously verging on some kind of make-believe and about the best that humanity can manage in the circumstances given its severe limitations. Not very good really, I suppose. But it’s NOT ‘three Gods’.

        • Oliver says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:24 pm

          I think, as I said, if you look more into how the doctrine was developed historically, “three persons” doesn’t just mean, like the way I am simultaneously a son and a brother and an uncle and son on. It’s clear even from the New Testament – Jesus was supposedly the Son incarnate and used to pray to the Father and say things like “why hast thou forsaken me” and “take this cup away from me”. But I know that Christians say this isn’t the same as one god. That’s the “mystery” of the Trinity, it’s supposedly too hard for mortal brains to understand.

          Re. the timescales, there are these verses for example, and for once all three synoptic agree what he said, so maybe he did. The Kingdom of God coming with power, clearly refers to what’s meant to happen at the end times when the messiah comes back with power and authority and establishes a new kingdom, like heaven on Earth, and it’s not happened yet 2000 years later. He clearly taught it was coming in the next years or decades.

          Mathew 16 :28
          “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

          Luke 9:27says, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

          Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not ltaste death muntil they see the kingdom of God after it has come nwith power.”

    • Mo says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 3:45 pm

      @ Oliver

      “To be fair Allah just means The God in Arabic, and some English speaking Muslims say “God”.”

      Yes, but when used in this context, they are obviously meaning the Islamic god.

      “Muslims also state they worship the god of Abraham,”

      People can state whatever they want. It does not make it true. Abraham did not worship an evil god like Allah.

      “so in theory he is the same god, they just have different theories about how he likes to be worshiped, his exact nature (ie. they don’t think he’s a trinity) and who his prophets are (they think Mohammed was the last one).”

      Looks like you’d fit in well at this “church”. The Islamic god and the Biblical God are nothing alike. They have different characteristics and issue different commands, entirely! If you’d read either the Koran or the Bible, you’d know that.

      “I agree there are some problematic Koran verses when it comes to interfaith with Christians”

      “some problematic Koran verses”? Are you kidding me?

      Did you even read this full post?

    • M S case says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:44 pm

      If There is anyone who needs a lesson from the Vicar of Bagdad this Vicar sure does…….Don’t know if any out there have heard The Vicar of Bagdad speak. but if you get a chance listen to him Don’t listen to this guy. I do agree that we do need to pray that God will warm the hearts of all muslims so that they may find Jesus and be saved from the pit of hell. The word allah may be the word they use for a god but THE god OF MOHAMMED IS NOT THE FATHER OF JESUS and you can take that to the bank. Pray for them they are lost souls.

    • Asian Crusader says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 11:25 pm

      @”Oliver” (real name Abdullah, i.e. “slave of allah,” yet another Mohammedan troll on this site – but they help keep us sharp)

      BIG LIE (“talking point” in DC speak): [“liberal Muslims”] said nothing in the Koran says to kill apostates, that’s from the hadiths – which I think turns out to be correct.

      TRUTH (if you only remember one thing about the Qur’an, with chapter and verse, let it be this):

      “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks…” (Qur’an 47:4)

      In the age of the Internet, it is not hard to ascertain what is and is not in the Qur’an. The perfume of feigned ignorance does not quite mask the stench of Mohammedan bad faith.

      • Mo says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 11:31 pm

        @ Asian Crusader

        “@”Oliver” (real name Abdullah, i.e. “slave of allah,” yet another Mohammedan troll on this site – but they help keep us sharp)”

        Oh, is that right?

  32. Lee Hicks says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 7:53 pm

    One more move in the slide to apostasy and Chrislam…

    • Anna says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:30 am

      Yep. Slippery slope ! Wow the Bible unfolding.
      Oh dear, Jesus says He pukes at the weak watery end time church. I can’t imagine why ?!!Lost on most Christians though. Like Muslims they rarely read their own
      Scriptures and rely on some ” scholar” pastor whoever, their little gods, like this Anglican do-gooder to interpret.
      Not much has changed then really. Most have a Bible nowadays, freely available which men in centuries past DIED FOR ! Reading it might be of help.
      Soon our most formidable enemy will be lefty ” nice and tolerant ” “Christians “

  33. abad says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    Allah does NOT exist in the Bible. Nice try, Goddard but no cigar.

  34. Kurt L Hanson says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    Has the silly vicar gotten on his knees and thrown his rump in the air yet, or is this behavior a tad bit too much?

    The guy has a couple loose screws on his canoe.

    • Godwin says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 10:13 pm

      This clown should read alisina.org to learn who is allah.

  35. Oliver says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    I find some of the comments too over the top and don’t think he should be excommunicated. I think that he’s seen all the hate at the moment between Muslims and other parts of the community and he’s trying to be a peacemaker and find common ground and to “love your neighbour” (or “enemy”, if you prefer – the Bible has both recommendations). But maybe also he’s not read the Koran and seen those verses about intolerance to Christianity, or he has but still wanted to try to reach out to local Muslims for the reasons I just mentioned. I’m not saying I think what he did was wise, but I don’t think it makes him a bad person or a bad Christian, for that matter. There’s a lot of people who say they’re Christian but are completely un-Christ-like, worshipping money, hating the poor, being quick to judge etc.

    • harley says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:08 am

      Oliver, bad person? Maybe not. A self deluding appeasing coward?….absolutely.

      • Tony says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 2:12 pm

        Made me think of this

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa3LyvFOdc

        Is Mel Smith writing that loons material ?

    • [FA] says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 3:30 am

      I am commanded to love my enemies. That is correct. But what do you define as love? An awesome priest once defined it as “to will the good of another, and do something about it”. Encouraging belief in a false prophet is not willing good in anyway. Love is not synonymous with “nice” or “ass kissing”

    • Brian Hunter says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 9:45 am

      The apostle Paul foretold the advent of Islam 600 years beforehand.

      Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

      2 Cor 11: 13-14 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

  36. Oliver says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    Also, Muslims state they worship the one god who Abraham spoke of and is the only god and creator. So for this priest to take them at their word and invite them to worship him in his church isn’t going completely against his religion, it’s just unorthodox. Having said that, the Pope also recently invited an imam to do a Koran reading in Arabic at the Vatican.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:17 am

      This just shows that we have inter-faith stupidity. For one thing, any place where Muslims worship is thereafter considered a Mosque. Given the Muslim history of seizing churches and temples and turning them into Mosques, this is foolish in the extreme.

    • [FA] says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 3:35 am

      “Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son.” Yep the evil known as Islam is not welcome in the Church.

    • Babs says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 6:41 am

      Oliver, it’s foolish as well as unorthodox and you don’t seem to realise how the Muslims who have weaseled their way in will perceive their success.

      I don’t care one jot about the status of the people who invited imams to pray with them. Pope or mere vicar, they are dangerously naive and in denial.

      This is one instance where they should love their enemies, but from a safe distance. Islam means them no good whatsoever and will do them harm if it gets the chance. Nowhere is it written that they should get red carpet treatment.

    • Anna says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 11:57 pm

      Oliver, you seem strangely defensive. ? I am wondering why ?You are also not listening really to anyone and they know Islam on here. And their replies to you are well written and informative?
      I recognise such as you. ( sorry , but usually either muslims in “disguise”Oh yes I wasn’t born yesterday, there are no limits to their deception) or totally believe what ” Muslims say.” Before I connected with them I had already read the Quran and writings, now twenty years ago.
      Mostly Oliver they want to convert you.It is their OBLIGATION, a stealth jihad. They want your soul ! . They ARE taqiyya artists looking for gullible people.
      Read the Quran for yourself ! . I guarantee you it is very clear. All you need to know about the ” prophet” is in there.
      Actually that anybody takes that violent filthy raping , robbing, misogynistic stuff even slightly seriously OFFENDS me deeply. DISGUSTS me. Especially as a female living in this century. Just so I am perfectly clear ?

      Islam is fascism.Hitler loved Islam Oliver , thiught it a better ” religion” for Germany.
      He got his Jew-murdering ideas even from Muslims. Research otherwise, ” Hitler and Islam”
      If this does not get you at least thinking, well, no comment.
      All the best.

  37. oliver says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    Also, if Islam isn’t Abraham then neither is Christianity. Abraham certainly never believed anything about God bring a trinity. overall I like Christianity more than Islam, but I do actually think Muslims have a point when they say that the doctrines of the trinity and incarnation and atonement etc are confusing and it’s much simpler to take Jesus as having been a prophet.

    • jihad me at hello says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 11:00 pm

      Check out the video link below. It is a longish video and it does appear to be a little dry at first, but hanging in their, it does warm up, there is some fascinating stuff. He also touches on the concept that existed in ancient Judaism called the two powers of (in) heaven. This is concept that there is a duality in the persons of the one God, but that God is also One in one essence.

      The Jewish council of Jamnia (90 A.D. – 100 A.D.) declared this ancient belief of theirs a heresy, probably in part because it resemble too closely the concept of God of the early Christian Church.

      http://youtu.be/z7Ry_uEMG-k

      I hear what you’re saying, I’m an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and the Roman Catholic and Protestant (majority of the Christian world there) view on the incarnation and atonement doesn’t really jell with me either. I was watching a YouTube video of a Protestant trying to convince a Muslim man on his take on the atonement. The Muslim man looked very underwhelmed. Cringe worthy moment.

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:39 am

        OK, thanks, I’ll have a look

        • deja vu says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 8:33 pm

          Oliver, I’ve read your posts with interest, but have only just had time to respond. I appreciate that you seem to be open to discussion without becoming hostile. There are several areas I would like to comment on.

          1. You state: ‘Muslims state they worship the one god who Abraham spoke of and is the only god and creator.’

          They also claim that Abraham was Muslim, which makes no sense either theologically or historically. However, leaving that aside, read Genesis 1:26 where God *Himself* declares His nature, long before any human being was created – “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.” Yes, Abraham worshipped the One True God, who was also revealed to Moses as “I AM that I AM”, self-existent, eternal, sovereign and transcendent. You might not be aware that references to Jesus Christ are in every book of the Old Testament, and there are numerous Christophanies throughout (look up the definition). All you have to do is refer to a good study Bible to discover this wonderful truth.

          2. ‘There’s a lot of people who say they’re Christian but are completely un-Christ-like, worshipping money, hating the poor, being quick to judge.’

          You’re right, and claiming you’re a Christian doesn’t make you one. All it means is that you don’t understand the Biblical definition of a Christian, which is the only definition that matters. You probably realise that nobody is *born* a believer in Christ. Until then, all men are sinners in the eyes of God who is absolutely pure, absolutely holy. This is the work of the Holy Spirit of God who alone can regenerate (renew) the spirit of man. Only then can he claim to be ‘born again’ (John 3) as a ‘new creation’ (2 Corinthians 5:17). God has no grandchildren, as the saying goes. Each individual has to come to Him in repentance one-by-one. He cannot do good works to gain salvation – it is a gift of God by His grace alone. He is looking for hearts which are soft towards Him and eager to hear His voice. We can never be ‘good enough’ in ourselves. Which leads me to my next point:

          3. ‘But maybe also he’s not read the Koran and seen those verses about intolerance to Christianity, or he has but still wanted to try to reach out to local Muslims for the reasons I just mentioned.’

          The minister of Christ’s body (the ekklesia) needs to understand that to reach out to local Muslims while dumbing down and compromising the teachings of Jesus is tantamount to apostasy. God makes it very plain that much more is expected of those in leadership who purport to be shepherds of their flocks, than of the ordinary sheep. I’d suggest that he should resign and study the Bible before takes the pulpit again and come to God in full repentance. He may be well-meaning, but according to the Bible he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a hireling who deserts his sheep and leaves them to be devoured because he does not care for them (John 10:7-18). It matters not what we think of the minister, but how God views him.

        • voegelinian says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 6:06 pm

          “I appreciate that you seem to be open to discussion without becoming hostile.” (deja vu remarking upon Oliver’s posts)

          Taking in all of Oliver’s comments, also in the context of the responses to him (and his responses back), this ostensible lack of hostility on Oliver’s part one would reasonably impute to a sly cleverness with an Islamopologist ulterior motive (whether Muslim or non-Muslim — two flavors of Islamopologetics), rather than the disingenuous participation in the conversation here that it affects to be.

    • Kepha says

      Mar 13, 2015 at 11:03 pm

      Actually, Abraham came after the time of which it was said, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, ‘let there be light…’ ” (Gen. 1:1-3).

      When God told Abraham that a son of his line would be his heir (including of the promise that through his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed), “Abram believed in the LORD and he counted it to him for righteousness” (Gen. 15:6).

      So, Abraham believed a God who is not a bare monad, but internally a living richness, a composite oneness of the Father, Spirit, and Word–all three persons being active in creation.

      Jesus himself said, “Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, (original: Amen, Amen) I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:56-58).

      That “I am” echoes God’s self-introduction to Moses in Exodus 3:14.

      Further, while it is simpler to take Jesus as a prophet, it does scant justice to what Jesus himself said about himself. It is as if to say that accepting Thomas Jefferson’s scissors-and-paste job on the Gospels gives us a simpler Bible–indeed, for it gives us a far poorer Bible and a superfluous Jesus who is scarcely the one we see in the earliest witnesses to him.

      The Jesus who is God incarnate and who worked atonement for us (“The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”–Mark 10:45) clearly fulfills all the prophecies and types of the Old Testament, that witness of millennia of hope in God’s promise to send a Redeemer. Further, Christians have NEVER de-canonized the Tanakh, or declared it corrupted and hence exempting themselves from reading it (as Muslims do with the Old and New Testaments; which they still inconsistently admit as prior revelations from God). As God Incarnate, Jesus shows the awesome extent of the divine love by which the Word God shares with us in salvation is not simply a pattern of phonemes and a grammatical form, but that God shares himself with us, and identifies with us to bring us salvation–even to the point of tasting death for us that through his death he might destroy the devil and his works (Heb. 2:14).

      The Arabic word “injil” is just an adaptation of the Greek “Evangellion”–Good News. But Islam’s supposed “Gospel” is no good news at all: it’s just a code tailored to flatter and accommodate dominant males (and one which even the best of Muslims admit to violating all the time).

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:45 am

        Personally I think the idea of the atonement and incarnation are just attempts by early theologians to explain away the fact that their Messiah had been crucified, which they hadn’t been expecting at all – he was supposed to usher in a glorious new kingdom, here on Earth.

        And the concept that Jesus died for our sins and – and it only works if you hear and believe this story (otherwise you wind up going to hell) – is one of the most stupid and divisive things about Christianity in my opinion. And I doubt the historical Jesus would have endorsed that that was his mission at all, or that he was God, but we’ll never know because we have so little evidence to go on as to what exactly he really taught. But my view from the main themes in the synoptic gospels is he thought the end times were coming and people should start following the essentials like loving God and one’s neighbour, not pointless traditions, and should not be materialistic because this world was passing away.

        • Adam says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 12:33 pm

          Uh, no, he wasn’t here to usher in a new kingdom on earth. Jesus clearly states that his kingdom is in heaven.

          Dude, you seriously fail at critical thinking.

        • Bezelel says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 3:32 pm

          2Peter:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time [4] by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

          Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.(Christ foretold of his crucifixion and could have avoided it by simply denying his identity when he was brought before Pilate)

          Oliver, There are so many Scriptures to pull from that are not difficult to grasp and don’t require that much interpretation.They do require a degree of acceptance, a mustard seed of willingness to accept that there is even the slightest fracture in the stone wall of the law of physics.

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 7:24 pm

          @ Oliver

          “Personally I think the idea of the atonement and incarnation are just attempts by early theologians to explain away the fact that their Messiah had been crucified, which they hadn’t been expecting at all – he was supposed to usher in a glorious new kingdom, here on Earth.”

          Not really, since these events had been prophecied long before “early theologians” came along.

          “And the concept that Jesus died for our sins and – and it only works if you hear and believe this story (otherwise you wind up going to hell)”

          Can you show me where the Bible teaches that? Of course you can’t. You know nothing about what the Bible teaches, just like you know nothing about what the Koran teaches.

          “– is one of the most stupid and divisive things about Christianity in my opinion.”

          Oh, here we go. You’ve been defending and excusing Islam all over this thread. I knew it was only a matter of time before you started insulting Christianity.

          Are you a follower of the warlord, child rapist Mohammad? A leftist? Or just a Muslim apologist of some kind? Which is it?

          ” And I doubt the historical Jesus would have endorsed that that was his mission at all, or that he was God, but we’ll never know because we have so little evidence to go on as to what exactly he really taught.”

          What nonsense. Now it’s clear you you know nothing about what Jesus taught or did not teach. You’ve never read the Bible, you’ve never read the Koran.

          You know nothing about either religion. That’s why you keep insisting the God of the Bible and the god of the Koran are the same.

          Please take your silliness elsewhere. You’ve wasted far enough time and space here.

        • deja vu says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 9:12 pm

          ‘Personally I think the idea of the atonement and incarnation are just attempts by early theologians to explain away the fact that their Messiah had been crucified, which they hadn’t been expecting at all – he was supposed to usher in a glorious new kingdom, here on Earth.’

          Oliver, do you really imagine it matters one iota what you think or anyone *thinks*? Are you suggesting you are omniscient – a mere human being with a finite mind who is shaking his fist at Almighty God’s revelation of Himself?! Where is your humility, your understanding that, when compared to your Creator, you are no more than a grain of sand on one of the beaches of the earth? Nobody but God could conceive of such an astounding idea as the sacrifice of Himself to atone for the sins of mankind.

          Hear what God says: “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct Him?” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

          You re correct in stating that the Jews expected Jesus to drive the Romans out and be the King of an earthly kingdom. That is why He corrected them, saying “My Kingdom is not of this world”. The Kingdom of God is in the spiritual realm, and will come to its fruition in the ‘new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells’ (2 Peter 3:13).

          From your latest remarks it would seem you have a foot in each camp. Be honest, where do you stand? Are you genuinely searching for the Way, the Truth and the Life? Or are you hoping for some kind of syncretised NWO belief system such as Chrislam? You should know that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.The best course of action you could ever take is to study the Bible for yourself, preferably with explanatory notes. Your eternal life depends upon it. How are you to judge error otherwise? Either way, you will never be able to say that we didn’t try to give you the Good News of the Gospel of Christ. The rest is up to you.

      • Champ says

        Mar 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm

        Bravo, Kepha!! …well stated!

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:38 am

      Oliver wrote:

      …but I do actually think Muslims have a point when they say that the doctrines of the trinity and incarnation and atonement etc are confusing and it’s much simpler to take Jesus as having been a prophet.
      ………………………….

      Oh, good grief. How can someone not see that the idea of Jesus being God incarnate is not just “more complicated” than his being a prophet, but fundamentally different?

      Let’s leave that aside, though. The main difference between the Christian and the Muslim Jesus—really, “Isa”—is not that he is not God and not a savior. It is more basic than that. After all, there are many non-Christians who don’t believe these things.

      But the Muslim “Jesus” is not a healer or a peacemaker, either. Instead, his main role in the last days is to “break the cross and kill the pigs”—that is, to do away with dhimmitude, the small, threatened space where Christians are allowed to worship under Islam.

      He then offers them two stark choices: conversion to Islam, or *death*. So the main role of “Jesus” in Islam is to *kill Christians*.

      Is *that* too “complicated” for you to grasp?

      • jihad me at hello says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 12:57 am

        http://youtu.be/z7Ry_uEMG-k

      • Oliver says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 11:16 am

        But that’s from hadiths, his main role in the Koran is to preach monotheism and prophesy that Mohammed will come after him

        • deja vu says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:30 am

          Oliver: ‘But that’s from hadiths, his main role in the Koran is to preach monotheism and prophesy that Mohammed will come after him.’

          Let’s see, the coming of the Messiah was prophesied from roughly 5,000+ years ago and you claim that the Koran (circa 7th century – leaving aside its many subsequent burnings and re-wordings) precedes the Word of God?

          There is no prophecy, nor has there ever been, of Mohammed coming after Jesus Christ.

      • Mo says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 7:38 pm

        @ gravenimage

        “Oh, good grief. How can someone not see that the idea of Jesus being God incarnate is not just “more complicated” than his being a prophet, but fundamentally different?”

        At this point, I’m becoming convinced this Oliver is being deliberately obtuse. I cannot imagine he is truly *that* unable to comprehend all these very simple facts. You don’t even need theology at this point. We’re just talking about simple English sentences!

        “Let’s leave that aside, though. The main difference between the Christian and the Muslim Jesus—really, “Isa”—is not that he is not God and not a savior. It is more basic than that. After all, there are many non-Christians who don’t believe these things.”

        Absolutely right. Islam explicitly denies/rejects all the foundational tenets of Christianity: Christ’s deity, the trinity, Christ’s death as payment for sins, His crucifixion and death AT ALL, and consequently, his resurrection. Other things as well, but these for sure. (And I’m sure you know that, but for dear Oliver’s sake, since he seems oh-so-confused.)

        If Islam taught nothing else objectionable, if its followers did nothing at all objectionable, Islam would still be an expressly anti-Christian religion!

        “But the Muslim “Jesus” is not a healer or a peacemaker, either. Instead, his main role in the last days is to “break the cross and kill the pigs”—that is, to do away with dhimmitude, the small, threatened space where Christians are allowed to worship under Islam.

        He then offers them two stark choices: conversion to Islam, or *death*. So the main role of “Jesus” in Islam is to *kill Christians*. ”

        Yep.

        Let’s say both representations of this Jesus/Isa are wrong. Even given that, how can anyone look at them both, compare the two, and conclude that they are the same person? It’s ridiculous.

        “Is *that* too “complicated” for you to grasp?”

        Like I said, at this point, I do think he’s playing us for fools. I’m not sure if he’s a Muslim, a Muslim apologist, or just a garden variety internet trouble maker.

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 3:29 pm

          I believe you’re right, Mo. Whatever his exact position, Oliver is not an honest actor.

  38. DhimmiNot says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 10:30 pm

    Giles Goddard is the vicar of St. John’s in London. He is the one who joined in the event” and who prayed “the god that we love, Allah”

    Don’t waste your time with Goddard. He is the canon (local minister).
    Best to communicate directly with his superior, which is the Bishop of Southwark. The name of Goddard’s bishop is Rt Revd Christopher Chessun. He can be contacted at bridge@southwark.anglican.org
    Their FAX is 020 7939 9468

    • deja vu says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 4:47 am

      Best of luck with the Bishop of Southwark. They have llong had a very liberal, ‘inclusive’, anything-goes mindset. They’d probably be all for the Rev Goddard’s initiative.

    • deja vu says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 5:06 am

      Hmmmm, seems all is not well with the Bishop of Southwark’s tenure. I quote:

      A manifesto calling upon the Bishop of Southwark to govern his diocese in conformance with the Canons of the Church of England and Holy Scripture has been delivered this week to the Rt. Rev. Christopher Chessun.

      Endorsed by approximately 60 priests (1 in 5 of the diocese’s stipendiary clergy) and 9 parish councils, the “Southwark Declaration” affirms the doctrinal principles of the Church of England and calls upon the bishop to ensure that the clergy he has appointed to high office conform to these teachings.

      http://www.anglicanink.com/article/warnings-clergy-revolt-given-bishop-southwark

      • DhimmiNot says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 1:55 pm

        Thanks for this link. Bishop is a powerful person and can easily destroy his corner of the Church, before the problem is discovered.
        I feel sad for the hundred of “faithful” who follow his lead, not having adequate discernment.

        At the end, there are over 20 comments.

  39. gravenimage says

    Mar 13, 2015 at 10:33 pm

    And here we were, feeling guardedly optimistic about this story:

    “UK: Queen’s chaplain says there are Qur’an passages that ‘invite people to violence’”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/uk-queens-chaplain-says-there-are-quran-passages-that-invite-people-to-violence#comments

    One small, imperfect step forward, one big leap backward here. *Ugh*.

  40. harley says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 12:10 am

    Oliver, let me clarify. I don’t think your a coward. My comment was reference to that idiot bishop.

  41. pumbar says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 12:46 am

    Luckily he painted a target on his forehead.

    • Charli Main says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 7:42 am

      @ plumbar

      The cross on his head has been put there to hide the Muslim prayer bump on his forehead.

      • pumbar says

        Mar 15, 2015 at 1:14 am

        Lol, I wouldn’t be surprised.

  42. Peggy says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 2:32 am

    Oliver says

    March 13, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    I find some of the comments too over the top and don’t think he should be excommunicated. I think that he’s seen all the hate at the moment between Muslims and other parts of the community and he’s trying to be a peacemaker
    ——————————————
    Peace is a two way street and Muslims aren’t interested in peace. Has this ignorant fool been paying any attention?
    Sure, he can try to be a friend but how dare he allow a Muslim service inside a church? Is this really going to impress them?
    They have shown us that they are not interested in dialogue but only in our submission to them. This pastor has certainly capitulated by giving them the church which is not his but belongs to the parishioners.

    • PJG says

      Mar 15, 2015 at 1:45 am

      Oliver talks about “…all the hate at the moment between Muslims and other parts of the community…”
      And where did that “hate” start and with whom, Oliver?
      If that question is too hard for you, you are either really dumb or lying.
      I don’t trust you one bit.

      • gravenimage says

        Mar 16, 2015 at 12:53 pm

        Yes, PJG—this is just more false moral equivalence.

  43. Rick Spencer says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 3:42 am

    My email, today, to Giles Goddard:

    Dear Giles

    Greeting from Cape Town, South Africa!

    Your good interfaith intentions re the Islamic service in your church are commendable.

    Now, once you’ve organised it, I will specially fly to London to attend a Church of England service in the any of the Muslim attendees’ mosques, but particularly in the East London Mosque.

    This would surely be a pipe dream (the collaborating Imams would, almost certainly, be threatened with death!), but – should my opinion be wrong – please be so kind to let me know as to when a reciprocal service will be happening, as soon as you have arranged it.

    Perhaps you should invite Imam Anjem Choudary to a service at St John’s. To warm the cockles of his gentle heart, he would enjoy a small glass of sherry with you afterwards!

    With universal love and light

    Rick Spencer-Cheetham

  44. xxxChurch100 says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 4:44 am

    The Confused Anglican Church of England
    I can’t figure out which is more unbiblical / heresy .

    1.Conducting a Muslim service in a church and calling on Allah to bless it ……

    OR

    2. Having Charles Darwin father of the evolution theory , having totally rejected of the Genesis account of creation and a vowed atheist buried in West Minister Abbey .

    Perhaps I am missing something !!! Or perhaps not !!!
    No wonder the church in England is nearly dead …

    • ECAW says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 4:56 am

      Yes, you’ve missed something. Most of the Christian church has moved on from a literal understanding of Genesis apart from the creationism/intelligent design people, of whom I assume you are one. On this topic creationists have more in common with Muslims than most Christians.

      • David says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 5:30 am

        The thing is here no-one knows what constitutes a Day of God. It could be several billion years. The thing though is that the world came into being progressively which the Bible agrees with only what was 7 days in God’s mathematics God only knows.

        • tgusa says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:48 am

          You are absolutely right David. It is certain that Gods world, the universe, does not run on Earth time. The Earth revolving around the Sun and that’s Gods time? How primitive are some peoples thinking? One day for God could be, well, not being anything close to the one true God, I have no idea.

          I don’t know why you profess to be a muslim, and stick to it, you are much more Christian in your posts and alleged beliefs than anything else.

        • xxxcChurch100 says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 12:41 am

          Dear David , you may like to consider this ,the hebrew word for “day” is “yom” and it is define as a literal 24 hour period of time .

          It ” yom “, day is used 2301 through out the Bible . In 2294 times there is no debate about it meaning a literal “day” at all , and yet somehow in the Genesis “days of creation” there is confusion and not meant as a literal day …. let me give you a couple of examples…

          The walls of Jericho were brought down after 7 consecutive “days” of Israel marching around them .
          Jonah spent 3 “days” inside a fish belly .
          Lazarus was dead 4 “days” … Jesus waited an extra 2 “days” before his journey to raise Lazarus.
          Jesus was dead and buried and on the 3rd “day” was resurrected .
          Jesus cursed a fig tree and the next “day” it was withering .

          I am sure you can see there is no ambignity in these few examples of a day meaning a 24 hour day .
          The Genesis account is absolutly precise in this regard because it gives the “day ” parameters , morning , evening and also a number , 1 through to 7 … this only occurs in Genesis .
          I am confident that God would have been quite capable indicating if He indeed used any other other amount of time .

          What it comes back to is this question ..
          ” Did God really say it was accomplished in 6 days and a day of rest ? ”

          Not giving Gods word scrpitual authority has lead to the foundations of the Church being compremised and open to attack which is what Robert Spencer is reporting has happened here … Muslim prayers in an Anglican Church.. by the way, did you know once Islamic prayers are recited no matter where , Islam has claimed it as there own?

          My earlier posting challenge still stands and is open to all comers …

          What BIBLICAL evidence is so clear and compelling to you or anyone that it warrants a rejection of the literal 6 days of Creation , eye witness account of Genesis 1 ?

          God Bless

      • xxxChurch100 says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 4:45 pm

        Thanks for you reply,
        I noticed that you didn’t touch on the issue of Muslim prayer in an Anglican Church, but rather on the ,” most in the Church have move away ” aspect of the creation account …and in my opinion indicative of a far more serious and concerning issue .
        As you point out ,since the Church has “moved away” from Biblical authority on which it was once based … what should now use as its yard stick ? Mans’ falliable interruptions of the word ? What should happen within the Church … ” If the foundation are destroyed , what can the righteous do ? ”

        A question : What BIBLICAL evidence is so clear and compelling to you or anyone , that it warrants a rejection of the literal 6 days of Creation eye witness account of Genesis 1 ? I look forward to your answer .

        Jesus critiques Old Testament historical writings as facts and comments ….. ” I tell you of earthly thing and you do not believe , how then can I tell you of heavenly things ? ” John 3:12.

        Jesus refers to many Biblical events as real ….. Noah and the worldwide flood , Jonah 3
        [ literal ] days in the fish belly .. In the beginning God made them male and female …the Past Over feast … the sabbath .. the list is long .. there is no doubt “he” believed God’s word as written.
        When tempted or confronted he usually replies “haven’t you read ?” or “it is written ” he does this many times …

        The Enemy deals in creating confusion and confusion reigns within the Church does it not ?
        We now have Muslim services in the Church in England , this has also occurred in the Washington Cathedral .. but as you said ” we ” have “moved on” from scriptural authority within the Church and now the fruits of that mis reading of scripture are ripening and bearing “bad” fruit … and we lament this fact …. but it will increase .
        Perhaps “we” should re think and understand that “God spoke and it happened” , just as His Genesis 1 account says … the Bible is either completely true or not true at all .. it does not allow just some random convenient politically correct passages to apply , it is an all or nothing proposition … Just as the Christ said .

        Create , Created , Creation and Creator are contained 65 within the Bible ..where as Evolve and Evolution do not get any mention …..
        And to alien me with an Islamic interpretation of Allahs’ Creation is incorrect . You can read my views … they are written in Genesis through to Revelation of your Bible .
        Amen

        God bless you .

        • ECAW says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:34 pm

          xxxCHURCH100 – Thanks for yor polite reply and good wishes.

          I am as appalled as you at this Muslim service being held in a church but I was more interested in your literal interpretation of Genesis, which seems puzzling to me, and your attitude to Darwin who I have the greatest respect for. I think I’ll leave it there since I don’t think we have enough common ground to really have a positive discussion about it.

          Best wishes.

        • deja vu says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 9:52 pm

          ECAW

          Darwin was without doubt a highly influential figure, but we must be careful not to imagine that his hypotheses were the last word on the subject. I’m sure he would have denied that himself. His book was entitled ‘The Origin of Species not ‘The Origin of Life’ – wisely so as even today no scientist can explain origins. Indeed, in the last sentence of the sixth edition Darwin placed the Creator at the beginning of life on earth:

          ‘There is grandeur in this [natural selection] view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved’. [ix] p146

          If you haven’t already done so, you may be interested in reading Dr Stephen Meyer’s book ‘Darwin’s Doubt’.

          http://www.darwinsdoubt.com/reviews/

        • Anna says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 3:14 am

          interesting post about Darwin Deja vu. Many thanks

  45. David says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 5:08 am

    “O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship”. (Baha’u’llah)

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:23 pm

      Once again, David—who is Baha’i—is whitewashing Islam, despite the fact that pious Muslims are avidly slaughtering his peaceful coreligionists.

  46. David says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 5:38 am

    get rid of this scumbag NOW!!!!

  47. David says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 5:40 am

    If we continually try to find things where we differ on then how is humanity to achieve peace and agreement?

    There’s everything right about welcoming all people equally which is what this man has done. We are all human beings wearing different masks but we’re still all human beings. Whether a person is Muslim or Christian or Jew, Hindu, Buddhist we are all human first and that reality should never be lost. I have prayed in Muslims Mosques and Buddhist Temples in Burma & Thailand and in Christian Churches as well as Baha’i Temples and I see that we all worship the same God but just call Him by different names.

    It’s easy to demonise other humans using ‘labels’ but in reality we all belong to the same one human race so to welcome another person to pray together is perfectly acceptable as opposed to what ISIS is doing and calling people to murder and violence.

    I believe in good people uniting everywhere but not uniting with people of evil behaviour and intent.

    • Demsci says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 6:49 am

      Beautiful thoughts, David, I wholeheartedly agree,

      But under democratic laws. And THERE precisely lies the problem. You are preaching tolerance to the already tolerant here! (well, mostly).

      But there are these PESKY political intolerants, many Muslims are in practice politically intolerant. And our intolerance is towards the intolerant, because to be tolerant to the intolerant has been proven to be suicidal for the tolerants. Hitler for one proved this. and now the Nazi Party is not tolerated anymore in Germany.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:30 pm

      It isn’t just ISIS calling people to murder and violence—it is Islam itself. As always, David hopes that we will forget about that.

      And his implication that Baha’i can openly worship in Mosques in Dar-al-Islam is utterly false—he would be killed in many parts of the Muslim world for merely attempting such a thing.

    • deja vu says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 10:41 pm

      ‘If we continually try to find things where we differ on then how is humanity to achieve peace and agreement?’

      Spoken like a true Baha’i, David. The obvious answer is that humanity *cannot* bring about lasting peace by itself because it is intrinsically selfish and proud. No matter what gloss you want to put on fallen human beings, the fact remains that we are very far from being perfect, as God is perfect. We need a Redeemer, not another prophet.

      If you are correct, Jesus is not God, He did not suffer and die for our sins, and we can bring about harmony in the world by believing that all gods are essentially the same, despite their obvious contradictions. At best this is wishful thinking – at worst it is total deception.

      ‘ I have prayed in Muslims Mosques and Buddhist Temples in Burma & Thailand and in Christian Churches as well as Baha’i Temples and I see that we all worship the same God but just call Him by different names.’

      It is high time this long-discredited notion was put to rest. There is *no way* that Allah and Yahweh are the same – compare their attributes for a start. They polar opposites; they can’t both be true. And no Muslim would agree with you, either, hence the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians – not forgetting Baha’i. How do you justify praying in a mosque? Who are you praying to? Certainly not the God of the Bible. Interesting that you don’t claim to have prayed in a synagogue. Why is that?

      Islam, and it’s Shia Islam offshoot, the Baha’i faith, both claim to have the ‘last prophet’, whether Mohammed or Bahá’u’lláh. Jesus stated that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. When His suffering on the cross was finally over he declared, “It is finished!” – His atonement for the sin of mankind was complete. Jesus was the fulfillment of 4000 years of prophets and prophecies. What need of other ‘prophets’?

      Buddha was a man, not a god, and never claimed to be anything else. He died still searching for truth. Krishna is one of 70 million Hindu gods. Neither of these are monotheistic faiths. Like it or not, there can be only one Absolute Truth. Relative truth is popular in our times, but competing truths cannot stand up to scrutiny, far less be something to bet your eternal life on.

  48. marty says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 5:51 am

    If people of assorted religions share their premises, that’s one thing.
    Does anyone seriously think that muslims would allow a Christian service in one of their mosques ?
    Islam prescribes the death sentence for anyone from another religion evangelising to muslims.
    The trail of destroyed churches, temples and synagogues tells us all we need to know about islamic toleration.
    In the UK there was just one mosque 100 years ago.
    Today, more people go to mosques on Friday, than Anglican churches on Sunday.
    We are under occupation and steady takeover in the UK, egged on by the national church that thinks tolerance is the same thing as suicide.
    And welcomes it.

  49. Deborah says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 6:04 am

    Jeremiah 3:3 (NKJV) 3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no latter rain. You have had a harlot’s forehead; You refuse to be ashamed. (Rev 17:5)

  50. Tommo says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 6:15 am

    St Johns should be cleansed and reconsecrated after this violation of a sacred space by members of the cult of death.

    Clergy in the Anglican Church need educating into the difference between the Islamic Allah and the Christian God. One is a violent, vindictive, demanding, manipulative and punishing god while the other is a loving, forgiving, compassionate and benevolent being who loves us with an overwhelming passion and desires, through His teachings, peace and love for all.

    • Richie says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:56 am

      Islam isn’t just a cult of death, but its Satanic. Muslims greatest goal is to destroy life, and defile all of gods creations. They do NOT pray to God above , but I beliive to Satan himself. The vicar basically allowed Devil worshippers into the church.

  51. DrJohn says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 6:19 am

    This Anglican Minister is an ignorant disgrace and should be removed as a pastor. Allah is NOT God. It is the Arabian moon god that has been assumed by Satan. Muslims worship Satan. Christians worship GOD.

    If you wish to let this Minister know what you think his e-mail address is:

    gileswgoddard@gmail.com

    I have let him know what I think!!

    Robert,
    Perhaps you should also contact him.

  52. Daniel K says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 8:05 am

    I have to say, as a minister in a Pentecostal fellowship. What do you need to do to warrant excommunication in the Anglican church (among some others)? Could you paint a pentagram on the floor and chant to Satan?

    This man has certainly violated the 39 articles, especially the first 5 which relate to the Trinity, and death and resurrection of Jesus.

    • Richie says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:51 am

      Daniel, I wish you were the the minster at my church

    • Oliver says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:26 pm

      CofE priests don’t have to believe in the 39 articles anyway, just “assent” that they are “part of the historic formularies of the church”

      • Daniel K says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 3:13 pm

        That explains a lot of their current dwindling numbers doesn’t it.

    • Oliver says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 12:28 pm

      Also, all he said was he worships God, I don’t see where that contradicts anything. Some people here though obviously have an issue with him taking Muslims at their word that they worship the same god, just that they have some different ideas about what he wants. I don’t see that there is anything in Anglicanism that would forbid taking that view.

      • Daniel K says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 3:26 pm

        From your other comments I doubt you would see anything. Willful blindness is a horrible thing. He allows prayers to a god who is non-trinitarian, has no son, who does not love the unbelievers, and I could go on. That contradicts everything about any form of Christianity. The likely earliest creed of Christianity (written c.55AD, but arguably from as early as 31 AD) is: 1Co 15:3-4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

        He denied that by his actions. Islam denies all of that. He takes employment as a Christian minister and denies the basic tenets of his Church. He is a fraud, a coward and a renegade. As a minister descended from generations of Anabaptist ministers, I understand as you may not, that the ministry is a sacred trust. If you no longer believe what your church teaches as foundational doctrines feel free to leave it. You have no right to bear the name of those who you undermine by your words and actions.

      • boakai ngombu says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 6:08 pm

        “all he said was he worships God…” seem to remember in past months, some Catholic translators desired the use “Allah” for “God” – because it was the most common word for the Supreme Being where their target group resided – and the mosque complained. there must’ve been a difference in meaning.

        and there is a difference in the reaction of the faithful to a portion of Psalm 139 that probably wasn’t read in the meeting: (ESV, Psalm 139vv19-22) 19) Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!/O men of blood, depart from me!//20) They speak against you with malicious intent;/your enemies take your name in vain!// 21) Do I not hate those who hate you,/ O LORD?// And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?//22) I hate them with complete hatred;/ I count them my enemies. >and here’s the DIFFERENCE in reaction of the faithful who follow the LORD< 22) Search me, O god, and know my heart! Try me an know my thoughts!//24) And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way of everlasting!" … which is neither JIHAD nor SHARIAH, the "way" demanded by the Allah god of Islam (unknowable; the best of all deceivers) but is the way of willing submission to the LORD of the Covenant made with Abraham.

      • Mo says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 7:15 pm

        @ Oliver

        “Also, all he said was he worships God, I don’t see where that contradicts anything.”

        I and others have told you what is wrong with it, from a Christian point of view.

        Allah and the God of the Bible are not the same. They are two entirely different deities. I don’t know what about that is so hard to comprehend for you. I really don’t. All you have to do is read the Koran and read the Bible. (Which, of course, you have not done and will not do. Right?)

        ” Some people here though obviously have an issue with him taking Muslims at their word that they worship the same god,”

        Muslims can say whatever they want. Why is it that just because they claim such a thing, it’s true?

        The Koran and the Bible define who Allah and YWHW are. Not Muslims. And not you. (And not me either.)

        Again, what about this is difficult for you to grasp?

      • gravenimage says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 8:42 pm

        Oliver wrote:

        Some people here though obviously have an issue with him taking Muslims at their word that they worship the same god, just that they have some different ideas about what he wants.
        …………………………….

        Does it matter that the Muslim view of what god wants is the subjugation or murder of those of different faiths? Not to Oliver, apparently…

        And note that he has not addressed the ugly nature of Muhammed himself, in the Qur’an as well as the Hadiths.

        Oliver is either deep in denial about the threat of Islam—this is possible, since he said he was disturbed that he was beginning to dislike that vicious creed—and he is now wedded to swallowing the whitewash; or else he is here attempting to whitewash Islam himself. Either way, disturbing stuff.

  53. Richie says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 8:50 am

    The message I take from this is that coward Vicar wants Christians to surrender to islam.

    This is what leftists are doing when they poison Christian Churches, they try and interject their propaganda in their sermons ,remove Jesus and replace him with someone else.

    I left my church when the preacher kept going on about ‘global warming’.

    The vicar needs to be denounced and excommunicated

  54. shabeer_hassan says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 10:02 am

    BIBLE CALLING ITS SELF A LIE
    “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)”
    TODAY CHRISTIAN FOLLOW PAUL(JEW) FABRICATED CHRISTIANITY,MUSLIM FOLLOW TRUE PATH OF JESUS

    DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM & CHRISTIANITY
    Islam prohibits the killing of women and children, Christianity advocates it’s and does not prohibit it.

    Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 257.

    Narrated By ‘Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah’s Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
    1 Samuel 15:3,8

    Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ” … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.

    Islam is a non-racist religion, Christianity is racist
    49: 13. O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa
    You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.Leviticus 25:44-46

    In Islam slaves are equal to you, in Christianity slaves are mere possessions
    Beating slave prohibited: [if slave master beat him, his punishment was manumit/free him/her]
    Muslim :: Book 15 : Hadith 4086
    Abu Mas’ud al-Badri reported: I was beating my slave with a whip when I heard a voice behind me: Understand, Abu Masud; but I did not recognise the voice due to intense anger. He (Abu Mas’ud) reported: As he came near me (I found) that he was the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he was saying: Bear in mind, Abu Mas’ud; bear in mind. Abu Mas’ud. He (Aba Maslad) said: threw the whip from my hand. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Bear in mind, Abu Mas’ud; verily Allah has more dominance upon you than you have upon your slave. I (then) said: I would never beat my servant in future.

    Exodus 21:20-21

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property

    In Islam a lady is free to get a divorce, in Christianity a lady is like a prisoner and cannot get a divorce
    Romans 7:2-3

    For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress.
    Malik :: Book 29 : Hadith 29.9.27
    Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that a mawla of the tribe of Banu Adi called Zabra told him that she had been the wife of a slave when she was a slave-girl. Then she was set free and she sent a message to Hafsa, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Hafsa called her and said, “I will tell you something., but I would prefer that you did not act upon it. You have authority over yourself as long as your husband does not have intercourse with you. If he has intercourse with you, you have no authority at all.” Therefore she pronounced her divorce from him three times.

    Inheritance women rights [daughter /sister]
    4: 11. Allah commands you as regards your children’s (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half.
    BURNING WOMEN
    Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
    Women, keep your mouths SHUT
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
    Let’s Blame the Women
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1 Timothy 2:13-14)
    Marrying your sister
    Genesis 20:11-12: 11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife’s sake. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father,
    Colossians 3:18

    Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

    1 Peter 3:1

    Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,
    We see commands about killing all non-virgin women, men and children, and keeping the virgins: “Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 31:17)”
    Exodus 21:7-8 “And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out.
    Ephesians 5:32-33
    32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
    33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
    1 Corinthians 7:1

    “Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry
    Ecclesiastes 25:22 “Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.

    • Daniel K says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 11:27 am

      Most of what you wrote shows a serious twisting or misunderstanding of what you cite.

      Christian men and women have the same law regarding divorce as seen in Mark 10:11-12, as well as else where so in Romans 7:2-3 the rule applies to both husband and wife, there are no differing rules for one and the other.

      There are no inheritance rules in the New Testament, there are some in the Old, but they specifically applied to the 12 tribes of Israel and how to keep the boundaries between them distinct. Nations of Christian heritage mostly give equal distribution between all children unless the parents stipulate otherwise.

      In the Old Testament many things mandated the death penalty, including fornication. People were killed for it in various ways.

      Christianity teaches that in Christ there is no racial divide (Gal. 3:28, Eph. 2:12-15). Also threatening slaves let alone beating them is forbidden (Eph. 6:9). Christianity as a whole has always supported freeing slaves, with early Christians buying and freeing them as a good deed. Kidnapping for slavery carried the death penalty even in the OT and Paul repeats it as a sin in the NT (1 Tim. 1:10). one whole letter in the NT – Philemon was written to obtain freedom for a slave.

      The command for women to be silent in Church does not mean what you think, earlier in the book Paul gives instructions concerning women praying (1 Cor. 11:6-7,15), we also know that women prophesied in the early church (Acts 21:9). The best understanding of this passage you quote is that it refers to interrupting the speaker by asking questions of their husbands during the sermon. Paul says to ask at home.

      1 Timothy 2:13-14 actually blames Adam. Eve was deceived and did not realize what she was doing Adam did. The same author (Paul) makes it clear that in Adam all die (Rom. 5), not in Eve. Adam is the one blamed for the fall in the NT, because he knew yet chose to disobey.

      Gen. 20:11-12 shows how much you need to work on your reading and comprehension. Abraham is worried that people will kill him so that they can marry Sarah. Your point here is?

      Every place needs one person in charge, in the home that is the husband, though submission is never absolute, and is not identical with obedience. Peter who you quote here pronounced judgement on Sapphira because she went along with her husband’s fraud. There is one head of a home – the husband, that doesn’t make the wife less of a person. All Americans are equally human with certain rights, we are not all the president. Husbands can be more or less autocratic, but Scripture weighs in for more of a partnership.

      Num. 31:17 deals with an enemy that had attacked Israel, it was a once off thing not a future command. The women of the tribe had seduced the men of Israel so that God would be angry with them. They killed the non-virgins because they were involved in these actions, the young virgins were not.

      Ex. 21:7-8 refers to a dowry marriage (concubinage). Not to slavery in the way used today. Almost all marriages involved a bride payment, just like marriages in Africa do today. The law basically makes her into a wife with all the rights of a wife in case of other wives being married. It doesn’t apply to Christianity though, because of 1 Cor. 7:21-23 which prohibits self slavery. Concubinage is also not compatible with other NT teaching.

    • Mo says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 5:27 pm

      @ shabeer_hassan

      “BIBLE CALLING ITS SELF A LIE”

      The Bible says and teaches no such thing.

      Now address ISLAM, the point of this story and the point of this site.

      (Notice how you never respond to me? Why is that? Is it because you know I won’t play your games?)

      Address Islam. Stop spewing your vile lies about the bible – a book you’ve never even read.

      Address ISLAM.

  55. shabeer_hassan says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 10:35 am

    ISLAM JESUS & PAUL(JEW) CHRISTIANITY
    Paul admitted he is a liar in 1 Corinthians chapter 9 verses 19-22:

    19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    So notice Paul clearly says to a Jew he acted like a Jew to lure them, and to the pagans and none Jews he acted like one of them to simply lure them in!
    Paul continues to testify that he is a liar, in 2 Corinthians chapter 12:16 Paul himself said:

    Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery (dolos)!

    The word trickery here, dolos in Greek, is mainly used in a bad sense in the Bible, in the sense that someone is a liar, and Paul here admits through crafty means he managed to trick the people.

    *circumcision
    0 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:7-14)

    1 Corinthians 7:19

    Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

    Paul now comes along and claims that circumcision is nothing! He basically abrogates this rite and law.

    *salvation
    And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain (1 Corinthians 15:14)

    So while Islam teaches that salvation is based on your pure belief in the pure monotheism (Tawheed) of God, Paul teaches your salvation relies on the death of a man! For more on Islamic monotheism and its importance please visit the following section:
    Numbers 23:19:

    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    1 Samuel 15:29:

    And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

    “Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings, influenced by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared. They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.” 1 Timothy 4:1-3
    So notice according to Timothy a false prophet is one who will prohibit marriage. When we read the teachings of Paul we find that Paul was mercy much anti-marriage, he is always speaking against marriage, and telling people not to get married. Here is one example:

    “Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry
    By the dictum of
    the Bible, then, let us consider the disorders that manifest themselves
    in the person possessed by the Devil :
    To be pushed aside by the Devil (Mathew 17:15, Mark 1:26, 9:18,
    9:20, 9:26)
    To see that which others do not and to know that which others
    don’t (Mark 1:24, Luke 4:3, Mathew 8:29)
    “As he neared Damascus on his
    journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He
    fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why
    do you persecute me?’
    ‘Who are you, Lord ?’ Saul asked. ‘I am Jesus, whom you
    are persecuting.’ He replied. ‘Now get up and go into the city,
    and you will be told what you must do.’
    The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless, they
    heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the
    ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So
    they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was
    blind, and did not eat or drink anything.” (Acts of the Apostles
    9:3-9)
    Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the
    Law or the prophets” (Mathew 5:17)
    The Qur’an says, “It was We who revealed the Torah (to
    Moses): therein was guidance and light.” (5:44)
    “And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: ‘O Children
    of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming
    the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of
    messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.’” (61:6)
    Paul had written, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the
    Law.” (Galatians 3:13)
    “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments
    and regulations.” (Ephesians 2:15)
    Jesus Christ had never taught that he was God. (Mark 12:29,
    Mathew 4:10). The Qur’an, too, reiterates this beyond the shadow of
    a doubt. (3:51). But Paul had stated thus, “Who, being in very nature
    God, did not consider equality with, God something to be grasped.”
    (Philippians 2:6) and “He is the image of the invisible God, the
    first born over all creation.” (Colossians 1:15).
    The Biblical concept has been that “… anyone who is hung
    on a tree is under God’s curse.” (Deuteronomy 21:23). The Jews
    had thought that they had had Jesus accursed by way of impaling him
    onto the cross. Paul, too, says the same thing. “Christ redeemed us
    from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is
    written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.’” (Galatians
    3:13). It follows from this that the crucifixion has only served to make
    of Jesus an accursed person. But the Qur’an does not accept the idea
    that Jesus had become so accursed for the sins of the whole world.
    How can anyone believe that God never heard the prayer of Jesus
    which he made in order that he be saved from the accursed wooden
    cross (Mathew 29:39) without believing in the very rejection of divine
    mercy to Jesus? The Qur’an, however, teaches that God had, by way
    of saving Jesus from the accursed wooden cross, undermined the
    conspiracy of the Jews. (4:157,158)
    The Jews contend that Jesus had become accursed by way of
    his being impaled upon the cross.
    Paul contends that Jesus had become accursed by way of his
    dying upon the cross.
    The Qur’an contends that God saved Prophet Jesus from the
    cross.
    Which among these is the revelation of the Satan? Is it the one
    which glorifies Jesus or is it the one which makes of him an accursed
    person?
    In short, therefore, the stark reality is that those who strive to
    produce proofs to the effect that the Qur’an’s has been a satanic
    revelation, have kept falling into the pitfalls of their own making.

    • Daniel K says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 11:51 am

      Paul was not being deceitful, he lived as a Jew among the Jews and a Gentile among the Gentiles, he was never a pagan. He ate with whichever group he was with and treated them all as men in need of the Gospel. That is all he is saying.

      You need to read more of 2 Cor. 12, not just verse 16, Paul is saying If I am such a crafty fellow and I took you in deceit, what did I gain by it? I realize that as a muslim exegesis isn’t your strong point, but really… Chapter 12 is Paul defending himself, not admitting to wrong. He is brilliantly sarcastic in the whole chapter.

      It was not Paul alone who abrogated circumcision, James and Peter agreed (Acts 15). Gentiles have never had to be circumcised to be accepted by God, ask any Rabbi, what was required was Gen. 9:1-6 plus a few other commands all summed up in Acts 15 for Gentile believers. See also Romans 4 for why circumcision can not alter a promise already made.

      Paul never forbade marriage as further reading in 1 Cor. 7 will show you. 1Co 7:28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 1Co 7:36 If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.

      In Gal. 3:13 we are redeemed from the curse of the Law in the sense that we were under the curse for not having kept it fully. The Law itself is not the curse. Rom 7:12-14 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

      Jesus said that He would be numbered among the transgressors (Luke 22:37, Isaiah 53:12). This alludes to Isaiah 53 which has a number of prophesies which are applied to Christ because of what He applied to Himself.
      Isa 53:11-12 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

      See He bears our sin and our punishment, it pleases God to bruise Him (Isaiah 53:10). This is the curse He bore. He became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). This is the thought of the serpent upon a pole that Jesus referenced in John 3. Joh 3:14-17 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

    • Mo says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 3:55 pm

      @ shabeer_hassan

      “ISLAM JESUS & PAUL(JEW) CHRISTIANITY
      Paul admitted he is a liar in 1 Corinthians chapter 9 verses 19-22:”

      LOL! He did no such thing either there or any where else, you liar. I don’t even know how you get that from this passage. You know and care nothing for the Bible anyway, so why bring it up at all? It’s just the usual tactic of changing the topic.

      Now, address ISLAM, the point of this post and this entire site.

      • Champ says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 4:05 pm

        Exactly, Mo!! …hear, hear!

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 4:17 pm

          @ Champ

          “Exactly, Mo!! …hear, hear!”

          It’s always the same thing with Muslims. (And leftist too!) They never address the issue being presented. They always have to change the topic to something else.

          And when it comes to Islam, they love to change the topic to Christianity – a topic they don’t even know anything about!

          We can’t fall for it. That’s what they want. Before you know it, there’s 50 responses spewing utter nonsense about Christianity, and Islam has been totally lost in the pile! How that aggravates me!

          But again, both Muslims and leftists do it all the time. They both loathe Christianity. (While knowing next to nothing about it.) That’s why they get along so well.

        • Champ says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 5:16 pm

          Yes–I *wholly* agree, Mo! Great comment!

      • deja vu says

        Mar 15, 2015 at 2:48 am

        Mo, you are well-named (modus operandi!).

        All Muslim apologists ever do is copy and paste screeds of regurgitated bile as they are never taught to think independently – hence the general backwardness of their societies.

        Personally, I admire the patience of those who struggle through these types of screeds and try to answer. As you say, all they are designed to do is to obfuscate and draw us away from the topic. A pathetic tactic and as transparent as a sheet of glass.

      • Demsci says

        Mar 15, 2015 at 3:57 am

        Well said Mo. You saw that right.

        Yes, Shabeer is soooo often busy with COMPARING. I suppose he thinks there are also Islamic visitors to anti-Islam-websites and he might really want to speak to them, not to us. And of course “in his own territory” he spews this propaganda probably to all and sundry all the time.

        He comes with much flawed, bad, evidence and logic, to convince the ignorant and naive, as we know he compares a lot to exonerate Islam’s faults by trying to show those of Christians or Hindus or others,

        and he constantly asks for “valid evidence” and when our side comes with good evidence and arguments then he “vanishes” “runs” and pops up later with something unrelated, or he changes the subject right away.

        He has never ever admitted any “valid evidence” from any opponent to change even slightly his opinions as far as I can tell, and I know him for a long time; he used to “pester” Ali Sina and posters there a lot. But Ali Sina’s website is nowadays much less active.

        A special trick of him are his “negative statistics” “showing” how much worse non-Muslim, esp. Western countries are in regard to murder and rape and such. To give you an example; It goes like; Oh look, the Saudi’s have much less crime than America, as the evidence of the UN shows.

        But of course that much more probably just shows how bad the Saudi’s report and how bad the victims of rape trust the Saudi police. Of course countries can cheat when asked to provide data that embarrasses them. And when I bring up all the positive statistics, the things countries like to show, like longevity, prosperity, human rights, freedom, happiness, economic etc. then Shabeer’s comparison-skills fall totally silent.

        Because then he must admit that the Saudi’s and other such Islamic countries are very hard pressed to come up with the same impressive “positive” data as the Western Democratic Nations, the # 34, incl. Japan, South Korea, and Israel. He does NOT want the Islamic visitors to realise what THOSE statistics mean.

        He has been again and again refuted but shamelessly he repeats his false comparison-claims after disappearing-failing to discuss and popping up later again, with the same crap.
        While not addressing the strong facts and arguments given to him by our side that demolish his conclusions.

        As I said, I suspect he does not really address us, BUT invisible Muslim visitors to the anti-Islam-websites.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 9:41 pm

      The trolls really are out in force on this thread! The spamming shabeer_hassan wrote:

      TODAY CHRISTIAN FOLLOW PAUL(JEW) FABRICATED CHRISTIANITY,MUSLIM FOLLOW TRUE PATH OF JESUS
      ……………………………….

      What rot. The “true path of Jesus”, as pious Muslims have it, if the subjugation and murder of Christians.

      More:

      DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM & CHRISTIANITY
      Islam prohibits the killing of women and children, Christianity advocates it’s (sic) and does not prohibit it.
      ……………………………….

      What utter crap. Note that shabeer hassan never explains why the most pious of his coreligionists are slaughtering and enslaving women and children. Christians are not doing this.

      More:

      Islam is a non-racist religion, Christianity is racist
      ……………………………….

      What rot. The “Prophet” himself sneered at Ethiopians as “raisin heads”.

      More:

      In Islam slaves are equal to you, in Christianity slaves are mere possessions
      ……………………………….

      Even when shabeer hassan is attempting to “defend Islam”, it so often backfires. Here his is happily defending slaver, just as he has in the past. He has also defended pedophilia and stoning women to death. *Ugh*.

      Has he not noticed that every nation with a majority Christian population has long since abolished slavery? Not so with Islam, where slavery never fully disappeared, and pious Muslims are now bringing back institutionalized slavery.

      More:

      In Islam a lady is free to get a divorce, in Christianity a lady is like a prisoner and cannot get a divorce
      ……………………………….

      This is patently absurd. Women in the free West, including devout Christians, have free access to divorce. Muslim women are frequently denied divorce in Shari’ah courts (although Muslim men need do no more than voice the “Triple Talaq”), and Muslim women are often “Honor Killed” if they seek a divorce.

      More:

      Inheritance women rights [daughter /sister]
      4: 11. Allah commands you as regards your children’s (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half.
      ……………………………….

      Here his is happily showing that Islam treats a female as worth half of male.

      More:
      Marrying your sister
      Genesis 20:11-12: 11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife’s sake. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father,
      ……………………………….

      shabeer hassan shows once again that he understand nothing about Jewish or Christian scripture. Abraham claimed to his enemies that Sarai was his sister to avoid violence—he never said that he had actually married his sister. What a tool…

      More:

      1 Peter 3:1

      Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,
      ……………………………….

      This actually posits women as having a good moral effect on their husbands. Not so in Islam, where women are held to be “deficient in religion” and subject to beating from their brutal husbands if they so much as “fear” disobedience.

      More:

      33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
      ……………………………….

      More inept spamming from shabeer hassan. He does not actually say why he thinks the Bible exhorting men to love their wives as they love themselves is a bad thing. Might it be because there is no love in Islam?

      More:

      ISLAM JESUS & PAUL(JEW) CHRISTIANITY
      ……………………………….

      And here he is, ranting about Jews again. For pious Mohammedans, virulent antisemitism is never far from the surface…

      More:

      Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the
      Law or the prophets” (Mathew 5:17)
      The Qur’an says, “It was We who revealed the Torah (to
      Moses): therein was guidance and light.” (5:44)
      “And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: ‘O Children
      of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming
      the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of
      messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.’” (61:6)
      ……………………………….

      What shabeer hassan will not tell you is that Muslims believe that the Torah and Bible were changed by Jews and Christians. When he talks about the Taurat, he refers to a mythical document that was just as vicious as the Qur’an.

      Why does the witless shabeer hassan persist in spamming here? It isn’t as though anyone is buying his Taqiyya.

    • No Fear says

      Mar 15, 2015 at 3:50 am

      Christianity worships a “perfect” man who could raised people from the dead and healed the sick, generally, a very helpful man, the ‘supra normal’ man, a man who in my opinion is an excellent moral example for me.

      Islam worships a man who encouraged his soldiers to rape the wives of men they killed in battle, a man who had a woman poet killed, a man who beheaded dozens of Jews, a man who raped a nine year old child and who had a fire lit on a man’s chest when he refused to hand over his gold, a man whose own book says he was a perfect example for others…. a violent tribal cult leader.

      Muslims say they do not worship Mohammed. Bullshit. They worship every word he said and every filthy deed he did.

  56. RICHTHOFEN says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 1:03 pm

    I wonder how Goddard will feel when they throw him out and the Church becomes a mosque? Playing with fire, there, methinks

  57. R Russell says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    Oh dear, is this clergyman naive, uneducated or just plain apostate? I wonder if he went to his basic systematic theology and reacquainted himself with the basic tenets of the Christian faith? If he didn’t have time for that he could have remembered the Creed and wondered if what he was promoting was within it.
    Did he spend time in prayer and fasting before making his decision?
    It could be that he was deceived by taqiyya and so led others into deception.
    Who will try to educate him about what he has done? Will he be open to correction?
    Where will his bishop be?
    Since the Anglican cathedral in Washington US also held a Muslim prayer meeting within its walls (complete with chairs moved and religious furnishings removed to prevent offence) can we expect this to happen regularly within the Anglican fraternity?
    What about the offence to the Lord Jesus? In Islam he is NOT the Son of God, he was NOT crucified and will return to Earth as a Muslim to give Christians the option to convert or—– you’ve guessed it!! be killed by beheading.

  58. Gabe says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 1:10 pm

    The good Reverend is willingly sharpening the blade that will be used to behead him.

  59. duh_swami says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    The Vicar should be fired and forced to get a job…Beyond that I don’t care…I also don’t care about all the religious intellectual masturbation on this thread…Shabeer was starting to make sense…Haha…Bottom lines…Gabriel was not human but a space alien. and you should never trust anyone who believes Allah is God…

  60. Norse Heathen says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 8:23 pm

    @ Kepha

    Congratulations, you sound scholarly and smart. So your bullshit sounds better than mine. Probebly smells better too. I will concede to that. You might want to tighten your hat band before your swelling head explodes.

    Being perfectly happy in my ignorance, I have been spending the last couple of days watching monotheists throwing book, chapter and verse at eachother as if that will change anything. The worst part is blood is being spilled over it in other arenas. I may be a fool but I can acknowledge the Norse Gods are only a myth. They are only as real to the point that they represent various aspects of the human condition and their fates are intertwined with ours. The virtues and codes of conduct we have gleened from Norse Mythology and the Sagas of our ancestors has carried me successfully through life. In the end I will have no complaints.

    When it comes to facing extermination I won’t need permission from some dieti to fight for my life. Nor would I feel guity anout it. I have and will kill my enemies for any number of reasons, mostly because my governemt paid me, but to kill my fellow human beings for the glory of a myth is absurd.
    “Repent or the sword?”
    Indeed

    • MKG says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 8:51 pm

      Give it up brother. The Cristians hate us just as much as the muslims do. They say the meek will inherit the earth. Who do you think that will be after the monotheists have destroyed eachother. So you might as well just enjoy the spectacle.

      • Mo says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 9:06 pm

        @ MKG

        “The Cristians hate us just as much as the muslims do.”

        Quite a serious (not to mention vile) accusation. Now provide your evidence for it.

        Show me where the Bible has open ended commands for either Jews or Christians to commit violence against unbelievers. (Here’s a freebie: the key is OPEN ENDED COMMANDS. Not verses that describe battles that happened or what people did that was not commanded or condoned by God.)

        When you’re done providing that bit of evidence, show me where Jews or Christians are committing such acts, all over the world, on a regular basis, in obedience to those open ended commands.

        I’ve asked this question ENDLESS times and have never ONCE received the evidence requested. Maybe you will be the first.

        Answer me and do not ignore me. I don’t know who you think you are, but you will not make such public accusations and then not back them up.

        Provide the evidence for your vile accusations.

        • MKG says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 10:04 pm

          I said, “Christians hate us,” not God or Jesus as written in your holy book. My brother would say someone had sewn up your asshole because you are so full of shit. I will just say I smell the stench of vanity. Your sharp response is my proof.

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 10:36 pm

          @ MKG

          “I said, “Christians hate us,” not God or Jesus as written in your holy book. My brother would say someone had sewn up your asshole because you are so full of shit. I will just say I smell the stench of vanity. Your sharp response is my proof.”

          LOL! Projection, much?

          You vulgar mouthed creature. First you spew your accusations with zero proof. Then you spew your filthy profanity at me when all I did was ask you for proof of your accusations, and when I did not in any way speak that way to you.

          And you still have the never to claim Christians (or “Cristians”) are the ones who hate YOU? Hilarious!

          Thank you for demonstrating your lies, your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred, your vulgarity and your hypocrisy for the world to see. Thank you!

        • deja vu says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 10:52 pm

          MKG: ‘The Cristians hate us just as much as the muslims do.’

          Waht is your definition of a Christian?

        • gravenimage says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 4:20 pm

          MKG wrote:

          I said, “Christians hate us,” not God or Jesus as written in your holy book.
          ……………………………

          I’m not sure who “us” is, but I presume you are trying to say that Christians hate non-Christians as much as Muslims hate non-Muslims. But this is absurd—leaving aside the issue of the content of “holy books” aside entirely, there is the fact that Muslims are oppressing, kidnapping, enslaving, and murdering non-Muslims all over the world.

          What Christians are doing anything like this? What Christians are calling for such things?

          And to claim that Mo’s “sharp response” to such calumny is “proof” of moral equivalence is simply madness. Even if his reply had been sharp—I would certainly not so categorize it myself—the idea that a sharp reply to insult is just the same as brutality and murder is just ludicrous.

        • Mo says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 10:14 pm

          @ Gravenimage

          “What Christians are doing anything like this? What Christians are calling for such things?”

          I know, right? Where are there professing Christians beheading people, strapping bombs to themselves, burning people alive, all while shouting “Jesus!” or “Praise the Lord!” or anything like that? It doesn’t exist. And if some fool claiming to be a follower of Christ ever tried such a stunt, his acts would be publicly condemned by all real Christians! It’s just ridiculous to even say that.

          “the idea that a sharp reply to insult is just the same as brutality and murder is just ludicrous.”

          I don’t know if people actually believe that these two things are equal or if they’re just saying it to be provocative, but I hear this more and more often these days.

          And I do think some people sincerely DO believe that these two types of things are equal. I’ve seen that quite a few times in discussions online. (Not just on the topic of Islam, but on other topics as well.) Speaking out against something is *just the same* as physically harming or even killing someone over it.

          What can you do with minds so deeply confused? How can people communicate when common sense, common… reality seems to have been chucked out the window and people truly can’t seem to make distinctions as simply as this?

          I think the only thing left to do is pray for them!

          (Oh, look. More hatred from me. For shame!)

          Notice how this MKG hasn’t responded?

      • Just Plain Christian says

        Mar 15, 2015 at 1:32 am

        @ MKG and Norse Heathen.

        God loves you
        Jesus loves you
        As a Christian, I love you both as would a brother.
        I forgive your rude comments and if we should ever meet, I would rather be drinking with you than fighting with you. This is what it means to be a Christian.

        • MKG says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 10:45 am

          Thank you. I have spoken with my brother offline, and we both understand.

          Have a nice day.

    • gravenimage says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 10:38 pm

      Norse Heathen wrote:

      @ Kepha

      Congratulations, you sound scholarly and smart. So your bullshit sounds better than mine. Probebly smells better too. I will concede to that. You might want to tighten your hat band before your swelling head explodes.

      Being perfectly happy in my ignorance, I have been spending the last couple of days watching monotheists throwing book, chapter and verse at eachother as if that will change anything. The worst part is blood is being spilled over it in other arenas…
      ………………………………..

      What *witless* moral equivalence. The idea that all “monotheists” are butchering others in the name of their faith is utter rot—only pious Muslims are doing this, not Jews or Christians.

      One does not need to believe in the tenets of any of these faiths to see that this is so.

      And the idea that Kepha—or any other Christian here—is counseling “spilling blood” is nothing but grotesque calumny.

    • Mo says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 10:45 pm

      @ Norse Heathen

      Wow, the vulgar mouthed, hate-filed and utterly ignorant trolls are out tonight!

      “The worst part is blood is being spilled over it in other arenas.”

      Can you tell me which monotheists are spilling blood? Or why you’re lumping them all together?

      ” I may be a fool but I can acknowledge the Norse Gods are only a myth.”

      Good for you. And… so what? What do the Norse gods have to do with Islam? Or anything?

      Can you show me where anyone still follows the Norse gods of old and kills others if they do not? Can you show me where the followers of these Norse gods are enforcing their religion on others against their will?

      “In the end I will have no complaints.”

      In the end you’re going to stand before Christ and give account for your vile words here!

      Anything to say on Islam? Or just incoherent screeching and pretending all religions are the same?

      • Norse Heathen says

        Mar 14, 2015 at 11:05 pm

        When I die I will stand before what ever power there is, and will accept any form of punishment or reward as appropriate.

        Get your house in order Christians. Islam is coming for us all. We have been fighting, but are too few.

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:09 pm

          @ Norse Heathen

          So, no answer to my questions, eh?

          Typical.

        • Norse Heathen says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:40 pm

          I have already confessed to being a fool and ignorant. What more do you want? I suppose you would have me burning in hell, but that is not your call to make, is it?

        • Mo says

          Mar 14, 2015 at 11:50 pm

          @ Norse Heathen

          “I have already confessed to being a fool and ignorant. What more do you want? I suppose you would have me burning in hell, but that is not your call to make, is it?”

          No answers to my questions, eh? Why not?

        • Western Canadian says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:28 am

          How about, he cannot answer. As he is but the usual run of the mill product of 1400 + years of inbreeding and book burning, he cannot help but be a devout muslim.

        • deja vu says

          Mar 15, 2015 at 2:58 am

          Western Canadian: ‘As he is but the usual run of the mill product of 1400 + years of inbreeding and book burning, he cannot help but be a devout muslim.’

          Or an atheist who worships himself.

  61. African Christian says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 8:52 pm

    @Oliver if you examine these verses carefully they all have a phrase in common “some who are standing here”

    Mathew 16 :28
    “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Luke 9:27says, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

    Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not ltaste death muntil they see the kingdom of God after it has come nwith power.”

    Jesus was talking to his disciples who were standing with him. He din’t mention a generation or any time frame here. Now don’t you know that John Jesus’s disciple who was standing there actually saw the kingdom of God coming. REVELATION where Jesus revealed to John everything that would take place when His kingdom comes. So John saw the kingdom of God coming before he died and that’s how we know what it will look like coming.

    Revelation 1:1-3
    1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    Oliver, Jesus acted as a person and God when he was here on earth. He acted as person so that we could learn from him. Yes he prayed to God at the time of when his death was approaching so we could learn how to pray and how to act at times of difficulties like how to pray when your life is in danger of death. What do expect him to say. I’m God so I don’t care if they kill me cos I know I will come back…. I’m God …. I don’t care to pray cos I could make this not to happen if I want. If that’s what you want him to say then what is the point of him coming as a person??

    Mark 14:32-41 look how he wanted them to stay alert and awake and pray not to get in to temptation.

    32 Then they went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James, and John with him, and became very troubled and distressed. 34 He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, even to the point of death. Remain here and stay alert.” 35 Going a little farther, he threw himself to the ground and prayed that if it were possible the hour would pass from him. 36 He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “Simon, are you sleeping? Couldn’t you stay awake for one hour? 38 Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 39 He went away again and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came again he found them sleeping; they could not keep their eyes open. And they did not know what to tell him. 41 He came a third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough of that! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    But when it comes to things like healing, raising the death did Jesus pray to God? No. He did them he did them with authority.

    Oliver Islam is twisted and if you approach it with the attitude of undermining Jesus’s deity, it destroys you. Because that’s it is for. Be careful my brother.

    • voegelinian says

      Mar 16, 2015 at 4:05 pm

      I suppose “Oliver” has realized his game was a bit too transparent; so he’s regrouping and will be back under another name.

  62. Say What says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 9:03 pm

    Now the Vicar’s church has been claimed for Islam. This is how they expand their influence. Read this explanation: http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=3706:sacred-spaces

  63. Jay Boo says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 10:41 pm

    Muslims speak about Muhammad with one hand on a weapon.
    Muslims speak about Jesus with hearts full of deception.

    Islam is deceit
    Jesus brings Peace

    He Reigns – Newsboys
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuLr5rQmp0

    Vince Gill : Go Rest High On That Mountain

    • Mo says

      Mar 14, 2015 at 10:48 pm

      @ Jay Boo

      “Vince Gill : Go Rest High On That Mountain”

      Oh, how I LOVED that song by him!

  64. deja vu says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 11:09 pm

    Inclusive Mosque Initiative – the Rev Giles Goddard and friends at St John’s .

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=740806232692302&fref=nf

  65. MKG says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 11:10 pm

    To all of the above.

    Thank you, I have no complaints.

  66. deja vu says

    Mar 14, 2015 at 11:27 pm

    Nothing new about inviting Muslims to speak in the name of Allah at St John’s, and to preach using plagiarised ‘proof texts’ from the Qur’an.

    http://stjohnswaterloo.org/faith-justice-peace-jehangir-malik-obe-director-islamic-relief-uk/

    http://stjohnswaterloo.org/about/

  67. Eddiethed says

    Mar 15, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    Do you think that Moslems would let Christians hold a Christian service,Hell No!!

  68. Prinz Eugen says

    Mar 15, 2015 at 6:50 pm

    Will this Anglican Minister get to wear his cross at a mosque, here or maybe in Saudi Arabia? What about Mecca?

    Those overly holy moslems have promised to take over the Vatican, the UK, eradicate Jews, etc. —
    how much vocabulary has this pastor lost? Did he have a severe stroke, or is he just naturally ignorant and stupid?

    Once these barbarian pray in a location, it is like a deed to them — they now OWN IT! The new
    confused pope has made the same blunder, yet he will never be invited to pray in Arabia or Iran.

  69. gravenimage says

    Mar 16, 2015 at 1:36 pm

    I’m just glad that there has indeed been a storm of protest over this idiocy, from church members and other sane Britons.

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