A succinct and compelling statement from my colleague Pamela Geller on why we do what we do, and what is at stake. “Pamela Geller: A Response to My Critics—This Is a War,” by Pamela Geller, Time Magazine, May 6, 2015:
Some are saying I provoked this attack. But to kowtow to violent intimidation will only encourage more of it.
Sunday in Garland, Texas, a police officer was wounded in a battle that is part of a longstanding war: the war against the freedom of speech. Some people are blaming me for the Garland shooting — so I want to address that here.
The shooting happened at my American Freedom Defense Initiative Muhammad Art Exhibit and Cartoon Contest, when two Islamic jihadists armed with rifles and explosives drove up to the Curtis Culwell Center in Garland and attempted to gain entry to our event, which was just ending. We were aware of the risk and spent thousands of dollars on security — and it paid off. The jihadis at our free speech event were not able to achieve their objective of replicating the massacre at the offices of the Charlie Hebdo satirical magazine last January — and to go it one better in carnage. They were not able to kill anyone. We provided enormous security, in concert with the superb Garland police department. The men who took the aspiring killers down may have saved hundreds of lives.
And make no mistake: If it weren’t for the free-speech conference, these jihadis would have struck somewhere else — a place where there was less security, like the Lindt cafe in Australia or the Hyper Cacher Kosher supermarket in Paris.
So, why are some people blaming me? They’re saying: “Well, she provoked them! She got what she deserved!” They don’t remember, or care to remember, that as the jihadis were killing the Muhammad cartoonists in Paris, their friend and accomplice was murdering Jews in a nearby kosher supermarket. Were the Jews asking for it? Did they “bait” the jihadis? Were they “provoking” them?
Are the Jews responsible for the Nazis? Are the Christians in the Middle East responsible for being persecuted by Muslims?
Drawing Muhammad offends Islamic jihadists? So does being Jewish. How much accommodation of any kind should we give to murderous savagery? To kowtow to violent intimidation will only encourage more of it.
This is a war.
Now, after the Charlie Hebdo attack, and after the Garland attack, what are we going to do? Are we going to surrender to these monsters?
The attack in Garland showed that everything my colleagues and I have been warning about regarding the threat of jihad, and the ways in which it threatens our liberties, is true. Islamic law, Sharia, with its death penalty for blasphemy, today constitutes a unique threat to the freedom of speech and liberty in general.
Freedom of speech is the foundation of a free society. Without it, a tyrant can wreak havoc unopposed, while his opponents are silenced.
Putting up with being offended is essential in a pluralistic society in which people differ on basic truths. If a group will not stand for being offended without resorting to violence, that group will rule unopposed, while everyone else lives in fear.
Islamic law as it’s interpreted by extremists forbids criticism of Islam, the Quran, and Muhammad. If they cannot be criticized in the United States, we are in effect accepting Islamic law as overriding the freedom of speech. This would establish Muslims as a protected class and prevent honest discussion of how Islamic jihadists use the texts and teachings of Islam to justify violence.
Some say that “hate speech” should be censored. But what constitutes “hate speech” is a subjective judgment that is unavoidably influenced by the political perspective of the one doing the judging.
Allowing this sort of censorship would mean nothing less civilizational suicide. Many in the media and academic elite assign no blame to an ideology that calls for death to blasphemers — i.e., those who criticize or offend Islam. Instead, they target and blame those who expose this fanaticism. If the cultural elites directed their barbs and attacks at the extremist doctrine of jihad, the world would be a vastly safer place.
You can try to avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. The shootings in Garland, Paris, and Copenhagen targeting defenders of free speech, and the raging jihad across the Middle East, Africa, and Europe, are the disastrous consequences of avoiding reality.
I encourage all Americans to watch the videos of the Garland event and see what Islamic supremacists wish to silence: basic, elemental free speech arguments.
But we are unbowed. Even when the venue was in lockdown and hundreds of attendees were ushered down into the auditorium, the crowd was singing the Star Spangled Banner and G-d Bless America. In the face of fear, they were staunchly and uniquely American.
To learn who rules over you, simply find out whom you cannot criticize. If the international media had run the Danish cartoons back in 2005, none of this could have happened. The jihadis wouldn’t have been able to kill everyone. But by self-censoring, the media gave the jihadis the power they have today.
We must take back our freedom.
Neil Jennison says
Pamela, your critics are simply unable, or unwilling, to follow a logical argument. It is quite unbelievable what is happening in the USA…..we have already lost freedom of speech in the UK…….we already live under partial Sharia……don’t let it happen in the world’s biggest defender of freedom.
Gary says
Most American’s would agree with your viewpoint. Unfortunately, our current Commander In Chief thinks otherwise.
He leads by example……
“The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.”
I might add. ……Let alone attempt to carry on an adult conversation, or discussion regarding Muhammad’s violent history.
Marit says
When wiil americans and other sivilized people around the world realize that Hussein Obama is a muslim in disguise ?
Joseph says
And all this time I thought he was a drag queen muslim in disguise.
My bad.
Tom W Harris says
Actually, I’m not seeing the disguise.
Gerald says
A blogger by the name of Wellington had a wonderful response to that moronic statement “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.” His riposte “The future should not belong to those who extoll Mohammed and who try to stifle criticism of him and the putrid religion he founded.”
Westman says
For Laura Ingraham, Alisyn Camerota, and Greta van Susteren:
Here’s an example of what to expect when the “moderate” Muslim population reaches 10% in America and YOUR FREE SPEECH IS GONE: Muslims Declare Jihad on Dogs in Europe.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2796/muslims-ban-dogs-europe
You’ve made us think you don’t care what happens to your fellow citizens, but ladies, WHAT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE COMPANIONS? Maybe they matter?
John Boston says
Right on the mark. You go, Pamela!
Walter Sieruk says
As for those two jihad minded who came armed with much murderous intent to that A.F.D.I. Muhammad cartoon event, The response of some on the far-left that in some way Pamela Geller was to blame is an absurd folly that is based in nonsense thought. The fact that Islam with it’s “holy book'” the Koran teaches violence and killing, as in 9:5:111. 47:4., is what inspired the Muslim to engage in violence,. For the cartoon event held by the A.F.D.I. For evil is always looking for an excuse. So it’s it’ the Koran which is to blame for the violence .Thus it’s Islam is to blame ,since the foundation of and for Islam is the Koran. In other words the violence at that event is the fault of both those jihad minded men with Islam that inspired them to vicious action and not Pamela Geller or the A.F.D.I..So Islam and those jihadists and guilty. Not Pamela Geller.
Firebug says
Stalin was a Leftist.
Champ says
“Some are saying I provoked this attack.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stop right there! To those who are saying this nonsense you are blaming the victim. For instance, if we were talking about another crime, like rape, then to follow this wrongheaded line of thinking it’s the womans fault for the rape–she “provoked” the rapist. Wrong!
The men responsible for the assault at the Art Contest in Texas are the TWO MEN that loaded their guns, packed up their vehicle(s), and chose to drive to this event and then they initiated the assault with their own weapons. No one “provoked” them. They chose to commit this crime. THEY are the ones responsible for this shooting, not Pamela. Only the guys who committed this crime. Period. End of story.
And justice was swift on those two worthless criminals. Bravo, Texas!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great response, Pamela! Hear, hear! You and Robert Spencer have 100% of my support!
Champ says
And Pamela is so brave, smart and Beautiful!! Much love!
gravenimage says
I second you words, Champ—Pamela Geller is an inspiration!
Champ says
Thank you, dear Graven!
Papa Whiskey says
“Never give in, never give in, never, never, never — in nothing, great or small, large or petty — never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
— Winston Churchill at the Harrow School, Oct. 29, 1941
karl Anglin says
Winston Churchill understood Muslims
Walter Sieruk says
Just this morning while watching FOX NEWS the news report on the television was that ISIS had declared in intention of death for Pamela Geller and that ISIS also threatens to kill anyone who supports her. With this I will not be intimidated.So let in be known that I give my full support to Pamela Geller. She is a very brave and courageous woman for standing up for the truth and is so willing to expose the evil of Islamic terrorism. If she even come to the city were I live she is safe with me and my place is her shield. As for Me it’s “Nowhere to run, no reason to hide.”
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
ISIS had declared in intention of death for Pamela Geller and that ISIS also threatens to kill anyone who supports her.
What?! Whoa. I’d been thinking about maybe supporting Geller, but now I must withdraw my possible support of her that I was considering for sometime in the future.
I hope you ISIS dudes are monitoring this site. Please write down my name and be sure to keep me off your list. I don’t wanna end up like Abu Afak and Asma Marwan, who were provocative, insulting and profane troublemakers in their own time, and look what happened to them.
Thank you.
gravenimage says
Grimly hilarious, APF.
Howard says
What bothers me is that the TV interviewers seem to like to emphasize the danger of islamic violence that heroes like Pam and Robert are subjected to, it appears in a morally-inverted effort to somehow dissuade them from continuing to fight for free-speech. It is almost like they revel in pointing out the threat. Why don’t they point out how sick any ideology is that breeds it? That is the real story to anyone whose morals are not inverted.
voegelinian says
It’s a curiously paradoxical dynamic afoot in the PC MC Mainstream: their ongoing Denial is partially fueled by a semi-conscious dread of Muslims — but it is kept below the threshold of consciousness by being suppressed; and the suppression, in turn, is fueled by another dread — not of Muslims but of ourselves: a dread that if we “go there” too far, we will succumb to our natural Inner White Western inclination to be “racist” (which, in the minds of the PC MCs, inexorably compels the person so afflicted to go careering without brakes down the vertiginous slippery slope toward Lynching Muslims, Rounding Muslims Up, Putting Muslims in Camps, and Genociding Muslims. With this irrational, recklessly disastrous conclusion haunting the PC MCs, it is no wonder they are so desperately hell-bent to stop the whole process at the pass, by projecting their autophobic fears onto the “Islamophobes” like Pam Geller and Robert Spencer, and thus safely scapegoating them.
PGuud says
Truth!
Complaints by others against you aside (whether or not warranted), you always tell it like it is–and that is commendable. You’re a stickler for telling uncomfortable truths, and we need more people like yourself in this war of all wars.
Keep at it.
Cheers!
Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.
voegelinian says
Thanks PGuud. If any of the complaints about me are warranted, we’ll never know until someone produces an adequate argument demonstrating that (and with some of my detractors, even just any old argument would be nice).
voegelinian says
Like I said: never an adequate counter-argument (only — at best (and rarely at that) — blustery appearances of one).
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Like I said: never an adequate counter-argument (only — at best (and rarely at that) — blustery appearances of one).”
And who gets to decide what’s an “adequate” counter-argument or not? You? That’s a suspiciously convenient way to dismiss criticism rather than facing it in the battlefield of ideas. It also leads itself to silly situations, like when people you consider intelligent and count as friends do not take your side and you insist that they should know better. I mean, they’re intelligent, you count them as friends but they don’t take your side so what do they know, right?
BTW, remember when you claimed I was “attacking” you for years (where “attacking” is your blanket term for criticism) and I counter-argued that what you claim to be me “attacking” you started less than one year ago and asked you to back your claim with evidence – i.e., to post a link with one of my alleged “attacks” dated more than two years ago? Well, do you have the evidence or do you deem that my counter-argument is not adequate and therefore you don’t need to provide any evidence to back your claim?
Pork Rind Addict says
Right-on Pamela, Robert, Geert and the many other freedom fighters!
I heard today some liberal media person say that this contest will “increase the violence”. How stupid! That is exactly what the Islamic Jihadists want you to think. But its logic is exactly inverted.
Thank you Pam for spelling it out: “If the international media had run the Danish cartoons back in 2005, none of this could have happened.”
Ren says
Pamela is the american Jeanne D’Arc fighting for the freedom of speech, the most essential right. Let’s all lovers of freedom support her.
45charlie says
Thankyou for your amazing courage. It is sad that in America you are no longer safe to express free thought. Garland was an amazing success!
Marco says
Bravo Pamela Bravo! I support you fully!
underbed cat says
Pamela Geller this is perfect…..this explains it all. Ignorance defends critics, the facts defend Pamela Geller….great article. Your commitment is awesome…God Bless Stay Safe.
Marblenecltr says
The sooner jihad is stopped In its war to impose sharia, the easier it will be to maintain our values. The anger over not submitting to accepting the “apostle” is more than a freedom of speech issue. That item of contention is but a part of the plan to take all humanity over, body, soul, and spirit. We must take our stand as individual Americans today, many in government, media, and even the clergy at best lack understanding of the problem.
Wellington says
Great statement. Brave woman. May she live ten thousand years.
And to all out there who have criticized what Pamela Geller et al. organized in Garland, Texas, shame on every one of you. That includes Bill O’Reilly who said he wouldn’t have done it the way Geller and Spencer did things but without ever explaining how he would have confronted the one religion which forbids free speech in its own doctrines.
Just as no one who uses the term “Islamophobia” seriously should be taken seriously, so should anyone criticizing the organizers of the event in Garland be treated with contempt. They are no reliable ally of the First Amendment to the American Consittution, whatever their deficient motive might be for opposing the drawing of cartoons of a seventh-century psychopath who had no business founding a religion. And what a wretched religion he did originate. It is a burden to all mankind.
Islam or freedom. The choice is this stark. No way you can have both. Anyone asserting that you can is either a liar or a fool.
Pork Rind Addict says
Excellent points.
I also was taken aback by O’reilly’s comment that he “wouldn’t have done it the way Geller and Spensor did it”. I found myself asking “then how the hell would you do it?” For the life of me, I can not come up with another way to non-violently confront this free-speech/human-rights abomination on the issue of free-speech. Pretty cowardly to denounce something without having to think of an alternative. Blanket nay-Sayers are a dime a dozen. I just don’t what has crept into his brain on this one. Shariah? A Mohamed art contest is a no-brainer.
Angemon says
Wellington posted:
“Islam or freedom. The choice is this stark. No way you can have both. Anyone asserting that you can is either a liar or a fool.”
Politicians tend to be both.
Wellington says
Agreed, Angemon. I should have written the unfortunately now grammatically repudiated “and/or” with my statement instead of just “or.” Your comment also reminds me (for yet another time) of what Mark Twain stated well over a century ago, that being, “Imagine you’re an idiot, and imagine you’re a member of Congress, but I repeat myself.” Never truer this sage remark by Twain than now, no?
Clare says
Here’s some fighting words and symbols for Americans’ to weigh during our purview of free speech; as anyone can see for themselves, they ain’t no benign art contest:
A review the NYC Muslim Day Parade history by J.E. Dyer.
http://libertyunyielding.com/2014/09/06/annual-muslim-day-parade-new-york-14-sep-2014/
Google NYC Muslim Day Parade 2014 and ask where is Fox News coverage. Here is Bill O and Mr. Trump in 2011:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWzDAvemJG8
Donald Trump warns of a Muslim Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4u6fUabm5w
Trump on the Muslim Problem and Bill O’Rieley
Contrast two days ago during Donald Trump interview, Fox & Friends, 04 May 2015:
What in the hell is she [Pamela Geller] doing? She’s taunting them…What is the purpose of it? Isn’t there something else they could draw?
cs says
She got 100% right on this article, well done.
wildjew says
Wednesday, May 6, 2015
To: Friends & Supporters
From: Gary L. Bauer
I Am Pamela
Supporters of the Islamic State posted an ominous warning last night vowing to kill Pamela Geller.
“Our aim was the [swine] Pamela Geller and to show her that we don’t care what land she hides in or what sky shields her; we will send all our Lions to achieve her slaughter. . . . everyone who houses her events, gives her a platform to spill her filth are legitimate targets,” the threat reads.
Many on the left, who are quick to defend flag burning as a form of “free speech,” have condemned Geller for her free speech. Sadly, some on the right, even in conservative media, have criticized her. They are wrong.
No American who chooses to exercise their First Amendment right should be blamed for violence that is done by someone else who is intolerant. Extortion is a crime. We do not give in to mob violence or terrorism.
Censoring ourselves because we fear Islamic violence is a slippery slope. In countries like France and England, Jews have been told that they can go anywhere they want. But they have been strongly discouraged from wearing anything that identifies them as Jews because it might enrage Muslims. By this flawed logic if Jews are attacked it must be their fault. No! The only person responsible is the assailant.
By the way, how did the Coptic Christians who were beheaded by ISIS offend Muslims? What did the Boston Marathon runners do that offended the Tsarnaev brothers? How about the Israeli worshippers hacked to death at a synagogue in Jerusalem?
What happened to the courage of all those marching in the streets of Paris after the Charlie Hebdo attacks? Remember the chant, “Je suis Charlie”? (I am Charlie!) Perhaps we need a new campaign: “I am Pamela!”
The War Within
There were more threats in last night’s message from ISIS. Consider this excerpt:
“We have 71 trained soldiers in 15 different states ready at our word to attack any target we desire. . . . 23 have signed up for missions like Sunday . . . Of the 15 states, 5 we will name — Virginia, Maryland, Illinois, California, and Michigan. . . . The next six months will be interesting.”
A headline on the front page of today’s Washington Post tries to reassure us that there are “No Signs Islamic State Led Texas Plot.” Other reports clearly indicate that the Texas gunmen were in contact with ISIS fighters in Syria.
To paraphrase Hillary Clinton, what difference does it make whether they are card-carrying members of ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad? Whatever group they belong to, they are all motivated to kill by the same thing: Radical Islam. And they are here.
Guest says
Just one more thing she could have mentioned: even ‘nice’ portraits of Muhammad would have ‘provoked’ the same response. I don’t think the public fully realise that this is about any depiction, not just what some consider ‘hate speech’.
Proud Pork Fan says
Agree, they don’t care what the picture is, they are just looking for any opportunity to score brownie points with Allah and eventually score with the 72 virgins in the sky.
dumbledoresarmy says
And it isn’t even about depictions of “Mohammed*.
Strictly speaking, the sharia of Islam, based on a number of hadiths, forbids all visual representations of *any* living being, human, animal or mythological/ spiritual. No statues, either. No pictures or statues of dogs, cats, humans, lions, elephants, unicorns, Jesus, Mary, Ganesh, Kuan Yin…NOTHING.
The *ideal* – and many a Muslim society has attempted it, even if they haven’t entirely succeeded because the human impulse to make pictures seems to be an elemental drive – is a world in which the only permitted ‘art’ is either abstract or at most represents landscapes, plants, etc, whilst strictly excluding even so much animate life as a butterfly or an ant.
In the eyes of Muslims, Rembrandt’s haunting picture of Simeon cradling the infant Jesus or Vermeer’s exquisite girl with the pearl earring or Leonardo da Vinci’s serenely enigmatic Mona Lisa or (in sculpture) the Charioteer of Delphi or Michaelangelo’s sublime “Pieta”or Rodin’s lovely “The Kiss” and his dignfied “Burghers of Calais” are just as much anathema – and just as much requiring to be burnt, ripped, hammered to atoms, erased from existence by pious Muslims just so soon as said pious Muslims feel strong enough to do it and get away with it – as any lurid squiggle on the pages of Charlie Hebdo.
*That* is the thing that all the idiot apologists for Islam have to get through their skulls.
Livid Pork Lover says
No art, and also no music (ISIS burned all musical instruments). The only forms of “fun” they get is sex and of course jihad. If I had to live like that praying all the time, rules for everything, I probably would love death more than life and be ready to do some violence. Especially to some one who made fun of me or my stupid belief system. I mean, it is so embarrassing.
juancolina says
WE have to remember that muslims are always the victims.
They are the victim when they cut your head off – you made them do it.
If our religious and political leaders don’t wake up and protect us WE will have to protect us from this evil political doctrine.
Whiskey and Pork Rinds says
I know, and their “stand with the (pedophile) prophet” meeting didn’t produce any shooters. If they stopped to think for only a second they would realize that that was because all the shooters were inside, and non-muslims are not jihadists.
gravenimage says
As varied as these cartoons were, what their assorted messages come down to is a criticism of the violence and oppression of Islam, all on the model of the “Prophet”—this is true of my entries, as well. Those who condemn this show are—whether they fully understand this or not—saying that we are not allowed to say that Islam is violent, lest Muslims kill us.
Bravo Pamela for giving this demand for surrender a resounding “no”!
juancolina says
Churchill 1899
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.”
William Lucas Harvey Jr. says
“Obama proclaims: ‘We are not at war with Islam’
TRUE, and that’s BECAUSE, as Pamela Geller states “This Is a War” because, as most of the World already knows, that Islam is at Bloody, Butchering War with US !
With the cooperation of America’s “Imperial Potus” Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., with his obvious Pro Islam, Pro Muslim Pandering Sympathies, and equally obvious “Anti America, Anti Constitution, Anti Christian attitude.
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=15200 “40 Mind Blowing Quotes from Barack Hussein Obama on Islam and Christianity”.
http://www.youngcons.com/40-mind-blowing-quotes-from-barack-obama-about-islam-and-christianity/
Michael Horn says
Unfortunately a basic law of the universe is overlooked here, that of cause and effect. To be clear, radical fundamentalist Islam is an insidious plague of violence.
However, when one starts attacking the most sacred beliefs of any religion – ALL of which are basically imaginary manmade constructs, each possessing the “only truth”, etc. – it’s a recipe for inciting the most violent adherents who already don’t even need more reasons for their degenerate behavior.
We should note that the majority of the approximately 2 billion Muslims worldwide haven’t resorted to threats or actual violence. So why is it necessary for Ms. Geller to spit in all their faces…and not expect some kind of a rabid response from the violent minority?
On the off chance that Ms. Geller is a Christian, for example, would she not feel that such cartooning of her favorite savior was extremely offensive? And while she wouldn’t go and shoot anyone for it, might not some other true believer do so? Has anyone ever noticed how many women (and sometimes men) who slay their children and families are also loving Christians who said that “God commanded” them to do it, a slight variation on the always employed “the Devil made me do it”.
Cause and effect unfailing delivers back to the sender its…rewards. And this of course goes for everyone, no matter how precious their…beliefs are to them.
And while none of you know it here as yet, the “irrepressible worldwide terror” from fundamentalist Islam was specifically foretold…in 1958.
dumbledoresarmy says
There is nothing you can do, mate, to avoid offending Muslims. There is *nothing* that does not mortally offend the Religion of Perpetual Outrage.
Our very *existence* as kuffar, our continuing to exist in sovereign non-Muslim states, practising non-Msulim laws and belief systems, is a mortal offence to them; *that* is ‘spitting in their eyes”.
You spit in their eye by *being-Infidel*. By going on being-Infidel. By insisting on your own law and beliefs rather than submitting – as they believe you’re supposed to do – to the ‘law’ of Islam, the sharia.
You offend Islam, mortally, every time you drink alcohol, every time you eat pork, every time you vote (since your government is not based on the sharia) every time you take your dog for a walk, listen to someone playing a stringed instrument or a wind instrument (the Hadiths explicitly anathematise stringed instruments and flutes), every time you listen to a woman singing (the Hadiths say that allah pours boiling lead into the ears of anyone who listens to a ‘songstress’).
And so do we all. We offend by *being*.
And if one manufactured grievance won’t do as an excuse for an attack, Muslims will come up with another (ever heard Aesop’s fable of the wolf and the lamb? – it’s just like that).
The late Christopher Hitchens summed it all up in a blistering piece in the Mirror, back in 2005, after the Muslims blew up London buses and trains.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/07/08/we-cannot-surrender-115875-15713152/
WE CANNOT SURRENDER
Excerpt:
“We know very well what the “grievances” of the jihadists are.
“The grievance of seeing unveiled women. The grievance of the existence, not of the State of Israel, but of the Jewish people. The grievance of the heresy of democracy, which impedes the imposition of sharia law.
“The grievance of a work of fiction written by an Indian living in London.
“The grievance of the existence of black African Muslim farmers, who won’t abandon lands in Darfur. The grievance of the existence of homosexuals.
” The grievance of music, and of most representational art.
“The grievance of the existence of Hinduism. The grievance of East Timor’s liberation from Indonesian rule.
“All of these have been proclaimed as a licence to kill infidels or apostates, or anyone who just gets in the way….
“The grievances I listed above are unappeasable…
“They demand the impossible – the cessation of all life in favour of prostration before a totalitarian vision…”.
THAT’s what’s at stake, mate. Try to get it through your head that – short of all of us converting to Islam or else agreeing to be cringing, near-serf dhimmis under the merciless boot of the Muslim mob – there is *nothing* that will satisfy them, *nothing* that will put a stop to the jihad (and in fact, you’re not safe even when you *are* a Muslim, and mass-murderous Muslim mob attacks upon dhimmis have been many, historically).
And here’s something else on the same topic – “The Danger of Legitimising Muslim Grievances”
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/11/dangers-of-legitimizing-islamic.html
Read it – I dare you! – and get a clue.
Here’s an excerpt:
“Muslim grievances are the frustration of conquerors, the broken teeth of predators who weren’t allowed to feed on the world until their stomachs burst. ”
(And that, my dear sir, is nothing but the truth – dda)
More:
“The fundamental Muslim grievance is that they are not in power, not just in Israel where the world has accepted their demand to be in power as a wholly moral and legitimate demand, or throughout the Muslim world where Western governments have helped bring the Islamists to power with bombs and political pressure. The fundamental grievance is that they are not in power… everywhere.”
How do you appease malignant narcissistic megalomania, mate?
You don’t. You don’t even start. Laugh at it, skewer its puffed-up ego relentlessly; and arm yourself resolutely against its wild-eyed assassins, as Pam and company did – successfully – at Garland, Texas.
Michael Horn says
You miss the point. If you deliberately insult ALL people of a given faith, instead of focusing your intentions on stopping the spread of the radical element, you’re only feeding the fire, giving the violent ones more reason – and more targets.
I have personally created a petition to have an international fighting force of at least 300,000 soldiers formed to deal directly with the threat from the IS, which has now at least 100,000 members. It didn’t get enough signatures. But there’s no shortage of people who want to grandstand with these foolish stunts.
As I mentioned before, this was specifically warned about in 1958. Also in 1981, 1987 and if the IS isn’t stopped militarily, this “irrepressible worldwide terrorism” may send us back to the Dark Ages.
Holding infantile, defamatory cartoon competitions, etc., serves no purpose other than to inflame. And that nasty old law of cause and effect well, remember…the Crusades? And then there’s that little issue of the Canaan lands being stolen so that the state of Israel could come into existence.No, this isn’t to justify what’s happening now but rather to explain it.
All of this stuff was done in the name of one imaginary “God” or another. Perhaps it’s time to leave behind the Age of Beliefs, and its endless blood thirst for the Age of Truth and Knowledge.
dumbledoresarmy says
You mention the Crusades, as if they were the original ’cause’ of Jihad?
RUBBISH. They were Christendom’s long, long overdue, ad hoc and disorganised and not particularly effective RESPONSE to centuries of Muslim aggression that had annihilated and subjugated a vast swath of previously majority-Christian country, massacring, force-converting or reducing to the misery of near-slave dhimmi status the native aboriginal inhabitants. Care to explain to us how the Christian Copts of Egypt – the native people of that country – ‘provoked’ Muslims to invade and occupy and subjugate them?
(Oh, and btw, care to explain to us what Sind – India – did to the Muslims (all the way over on the other side of the Arabian Sea) that justifies the genocidal onslaught waged against India by invading Muslims from the 8th century to the 18th??? )
When and where did Charles Martel stem the advancing armies of the empire of Islam?
At Tours/ Poitiers. On the soil of France; his own homeland. And that was in 732 AD, 300-400 years *before* the first Crusade.
Muslims – imperial, invading, occupying, pillaging, slave-taking and slave-trading Muslims – invaded and occupied Christian Spain long, long before the Crusades, and they were only turfed out by centuries of determined resistance engaged in by the native inhabitants.
Just outta curiosity, what do you think the Armenian Christians did to ‘provoke’ the Muslims into 1/ invading and occupying their ancestral homeland in the first place (with accompanying ghastly atrocities left right and centre) and then 2/ between the 1890s and 1917, engaging in the jihad genocide of the Armenians? (and if you ‘buy’ the Turkish Muslim nonsense and lies about *that* little episode of allahuakbaring mass murder of the defenceless, and try to pretend that the Turks were victims or engaging in ‘self defence’ against them eeeeevil Armenians, you’re a fool and a moral imbecile).
45charlie says
Well said.
dumbledoresarmy says
‘Infantile’
‘Defamatory’.
NONSENSE.
Are you aware that the man who drew the winning cartoon is an atheist, an apostate from Islam? He has a perfect right to draw Mohammed – since he is no longer subject to the sharia of Islam that forbids it – and he has a perfect right to *draw* living beings – which the Sharia of Islam *also*, strictly, forbids. And since he chose, freely and on the basis of rational thought, to *leave* Islam, he has every right to express his reasons for having done so…or would you deny him that right? Is he supposed to say nothing, or to lie and flatter in order to avoid hurting the little feelings of his former coreligionists?…from whom he must conceal his identity and address, lest they send a sharia assassin after him.
Would you forbid criticism and ridicule of the Mafia?
Would you, back in the day, have condemned criticism and ridicule of Comrade Stalin and of Communism, lest the tender feelings of Communists be hurt?
Would you have condemned and banned criticism – and ridicule – of Chairman Mao, or Pol Pot, and their ghastly regimes and ideologies, because it might hurt someone’s feelings or provoke a violent response from an outraged communist??
So why do you regard it as ‘infantile’ to hold a – well-defended – exhibition engaging in critique and, yes, in some cases, ridicule (intelligent, rationally based ridicule of Mohammed and Islam? Because the texts of Islam, read by a sceptical and morally-decent non-Muslim, show us a rapist, warlord, mass-murderer, slave-raider and slave-trader, and robber. A man who hated dogs, music and pictures and forbade his followers to have dogs as pets. A man who taught hatred, deceit and unending aggression. A man who ordered assassination ‘hits’ on anyone who criticised him. Doesn’t such a figure *deserve* both critique and ridicule – and if it’s crude, so what? Isn’t that famous Spike Milligan clip, about farting in der fuehrer’s face, somewhat crude and vulgar? What of Charlie Chaplin’s “The Great Dictator”? Would you have demanded that that be banned, back in the day?
If you refrain from criticising or caricaturing long-dead warlord Mohammed merely for fear of his murderous hitmen coming after you if you do, then all that tells us is that the hitmen – and the Ummah which produces and trains the hitmen – shouldn’t be in our midst in the first place; that Muslims should never have been permitted inside our gates.
Michael Horn says
Islam orignally came about to stop the worldwide spread of the Catholic church (did you notice which came first?) which otherwise would have basically enslaved everyone. The Koran, like both Bibles, is a manmade document, edited, falsified, etc., etc., long after the actual events.
EVERY religion rests on the inadmissible, illogical premise that, “What’s in this book is true…because this book says it’s true.” That doesn’t fly in a court of law, let alone in a kindergarten. So we have a world full of people, all believing in the “one true God”, none of whom appraently stoopped to reflect that if their god was so omnipotent…why are they bothering it with the billions of unanswered, useless prayers?
So who’s god anyway, the supposed one or all of the people who keep trying to get its attention and make him “fix things”? If you’re going to go on performance, it sure appears that the particular god of the fanatics trumps the other ones, no?
This mess that’s being discussed here wouldn’t have become one if Pamela hadn’t put herself, family and others in danger with a misguided and actually arrogant act. Is it some kind of American tradition that has us thinking that insulting and humiliating people whose beliefs are different is the way to go…without repercussions?
It’s time to face up to the fact that ALL of these religions and religious “beliefs” are nonsense and NOT worthy of respect. But people are worthy of respect unless they actually show that they’re not.
There are a couple billion peoplle in the world who have their belief system and who don’t go around massacring people. Some of them probably will become radicalized, as is the case with members of other religions.
Regarding people’s “right” to draw cartoons, etc. Sure, there are tons of people expressing themselves creatively, etc. The difference is that when you deliberately go after the most sacred elements of a religious group – and you already know that they have no problem in murdering people who do – isn’t it a bit…wiser to focus your energy on supporting the only option (military) that has a chance of putting down the real threat?
You can exercise your “right”, and think you’re tough, all you want but these times demand that people think and act…effectively. I’d say that this tactic is only effective in making people more identifiable targets. And you can carry on all you want but the rules of the “game” have changed drastically. The opponent completely disregards your prissy little “rights” once you start fueling his fire. So all the shoulda, woulda, coulda doesn’t matter. (BTW, all of those who claim that Obama is a Muslim – and by implication responsible for this – haven’t yet explained why radical Muslims also want to kill him.)
What no one has yet really considered is that whatever we think we know about Mohammed is also based on very, very old information that just may also have been…corrupted by those who want to use it to control, incite, destroy, etc. That’s religion for you. And it’s ALL manmade.
Western Canadian says
TINFOIL HAT ZONE WARNING!! TINFOIL HAT ZONE WARNING!!!
Horn the loony toon can be in part traced back to the link that pops up if you click on his name….. but you have to correct it, the dolt mis-spelled .com as .om And it will tell you ALL you need to know about the sniveling, pant wetting lout!!!! TINFOIL HAT WARNING!!!
dumbledoresarmy says
More on the “Religion of Perpetual Outrage”.
An astute and funny Bengali ex-Muslim, ‘Abul Kasem’, explaining to us what is actually meant when Muslims claim to be “oppressed”. The thing is, what they mean by “oppression’ is not quite the same thing as the average westerner.
http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/IslamOppressed.htm
When is Islam Oppressed?
However, if you’re really determined to try to avoid everything and anything that has ever been deemed offensive to Muslims, here’s a list – the long, long, and ever-lengthening list of all the things you had better avoid. Have fun! Every item on the list is something that Muslims, somewhere, have vociferously – and in some cases violently, even murderously – claimed was offensive to their exquisitely-delicate Muslim sensibilities (the Princess and the Pea had a thick skin compared to these narcissists).
http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2007/02/the_list_of_thi.html
But just to finish off, here’s another list – “95 Other Things that Also Fuel Muslim Extremism”. Again, you will see, as the list goes on and on and on, that it is pretty nearly impossible to avoid offending Muslims one way or another.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/fitzgerald-95-things-that-fuel-muslim-extremism.html
Claudio Silva says
“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” ~ Karl Marx
jewdog says
The future does not belong to those who slander Pamela Geller.
Bezelel says
DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
abad says
Pamela:
You are NOT responsible for the actions of those 2 Muslims who decided to shoot up the event. Those 2 Muslims made the CHOICE to shoot. They have no one to blame but themselves for their actions.
In the meantime – keep up the great work – you too, Mr Spencer. You both have my support 100%+.
Ashley says
I sure would appreciate if someone could “spirit” me from my dark thoughts…
I fear Robert, Pamela, Geert, Bosch and all supporters of the event are going to pay dearly in the days to come…from BOTH sides of the aisle.
Robert was held accountable for Anders Breivik’s brutal and heinous massacre by outspoken morons. It is now being reported that Germany foiled a terrorist attack orchestrated by four “Anti-Muslim” terrorists.
So these heroes of ours are in a lose-lose situation. They will be held culpable for ALL attacks going forward. Attacks against infidels, attacks against Muslims.
My deep-seated fear? It is lost on the masses that this event was about FREE SPEECH AND FREE EXPRESSION. I’m so fucking tired of terms like incendiary, provocative, taunting, offensive, etc. in describing Sunday’s event.
Feeling lost. Feeling discouraged.
Bezelel says
Ashely, We can rest assured that cartoons are just being used as an excuse de jure for islamists to try to do what they intend to do anyway.
Sam says
This is BS. Why not the media is talking about who these crazy people who tried to kill innocent people in Garland are? Which mosque did they go? Did they have similar people in their group who are part of the peaceful religion of Islam? Where did these people get this strange idea to kill people in a carton contest?
Would there be possibility that Islam has something to with this as ISIS is indicating that it is an Islamic state? Have Islam and Moslems been peaceful for 1400 years.
That is too much work, let’s defame Pam Geller for insulting “GOOD” Moslems. I know what is going on in a liberal mind but it is still SURREAL THAT MAJORITY OF POPULATION DOES NOT BACK UP PAM AND ROBERT.
Sam says
Please send as much as possible to Pam and Robert as they are putting their life on the line for our freedom. I am doing my part although it is minute.
Jay Jay says
Ms Geller is a the type of person WE NEED To Lead this Country!
To many people are tip toeing around muslims because their muslim so called religion is VIOLENT and they get offended and may shoot someone because of what they say or a cartoon they draw!
Note to Silly Bill O Riley “We Are Not Cowards “
We Do Not Avoid saying any word in the English Language, Slang or otherwise because someone MAY Get Upset!
Read some Catholic History Bill The Saints did not Denounce Christ even when tied to a stake and set on fire!
WE should Never Back Down or Limit Our Free Speech or bend our Laws or Rights because someone may feel hurt OR GET VIOLENT! If they get VIOLENT we have Logical Laws the Police and the FBI to take care of their sorry a$$es. muslims have Declared War on US citizens since 911!
EVERYONE is afraid to talk about it! MSNBC ABC NBC and NOW O Riley is Afraid.
EVERYONE IS AFRAID EXCEPT Geller!
God bless you Ms Geller..Keep your head down and take care but Know This….
Some Americans Truly Appreciate you and what your doing!
ps If you have time Could you PLEASE RUN FOR PRESIDENT!
sidney penny says
Sorry Robert beat her to it.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/frontpagemag-com/robert-spencer-announces-candidacy-for-president/
It is not time for the first women president.On one qualified yet for the job..Hillary who? What the woman who tried before and some black guy beat her to the job she wanted?
PGuud says
Brava, Pam! You and Robert are monuments in this war against a fascist ideology that is disguised as a religion.
Thank you.
Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.
terry says
Bravo Pamela! Even though currently relatively few people appreciate what you are doing, your name will go down in history books with a lot of honor and future generations will know to whom it belonged- a beautiful, both inside and outside, and above all courageous woman who had a lot of love and care for fellow humans.
gungadin says
Well said !!! I couldn’t have said it better myself !!
Shane says
Yes, an excellent response. We must NOT submit to barbaric sharia law and their blasphemy laws as so many Western countries already have done. Stand up for free speech. No Muslims were harmed by the Drawing Muhammad convention!
Michael Horn says
Your clear censorship of my comments indicate the weak moral underbelly here. It’s typical of the pull-your-covers-over-your-head approach that refuses to see what it doesn’t want to…as if that removed the perceived threat.
So I’ll give you free publicity on my own blog and let people know how little difference there is between people who won’t allow pictures of prophets, etc., and those who won’t allow criticism of stupid, incendiary rabble rousing that doesn’t at all deal with the core issues but only throws gasoline on the fire.
Bezelel says
@Michael Horn, moHAMed is the instigator and islam has been the source of hate since it’s conception. The koran is chock full of hate speech and it is time muslims accept some accountability for all the atrocities that are committed globally in the name of islam.
Tom Evans says
Spot on Bezelel. Having said that, it appears that there is some sort of spiritual blindness upon the liberal and multicultural thinkers in the West.
Western Canadian says
OH WOW!!!! FREE PUBLICITY ON A BLOG THAT GETS 3 HEATS IN A GOOD YEAR!!!!
You utterly pathetic, sniveling, pant-wetting little pustule of ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, self aggrandizement, dishonesty, and general run of the mill assdom!! You have not been ‘censored’ in the least on this board. You have been given the ‘free speech’ right to demonstrate that you are so sickeningly ignorant that you can’t see how blind you are, so stupid you can’t begin to fathom hos sickening the drivel you post is, and yes, you DID take advantage of that right….. And you were bitch-slapped down, and you promptly doubled down on stupid, and offered up more utter drivel. You are stupid and ignorant enough to offer up a comment that fits in describing the world… in the Newtonian sense… Hate to be the one to tell you (no, I really don’t hate it… I just admit it is a complete waste of time…. your stupidity is so extreme NOTHING can penetrate it!!!) that sub atomic physics…. oh why the hell bother…. ’cause and effect’ does NOT apply to everything, especially ignorant and stupid louts like you, and all the other muslims. You are so far beyond ignorant that you are less than worthless. You are so far beyond worthless that you would feel quite at home in a madras, abusing the poor children unlucky enough to be left in your charge. OH, by the way, I will be looking for YOUR blog… and when I find it, you will wet your pants and whine and snivel, jus as you have done, here.
Michael Horn says
More bravado from nasty, name calling people who are full of bluster and anger but lacking reason, self-control.
If I had to take a guess, I’d think you were a higly religious person who’s just brimming over with one of the most predictable products of it, a propensity for violence that makes you not much different than the other irrational ones, you’re just limited to having to spew it out on a blog and towards somene who isn’t going to hunt you down because of it.
Perhaps though we should reflect on the connection between that kind of lack of self-control and arrogance and the danger it puts people in when they underestimate their opponents. In our case, you’re free to bluster and know you’re not in the kind of danger that Pamela put herself in. But despite your ignorance of it, and many other things, cause and effect is in play here too, as thoughts and words create feelings, which lead to actions. And those actions may play out…in your world, seemingly unconnected to the abuse you hurled at someone who thinks differently than you do.
Funny how many braggarts and cowards…use screen names.
BTW, I see that I wasn’t censored, just that my posts didn’t show up for a while.
Western Canadian says
Funny how many lunatics live in TINFOIL HATS, or their intellectual counterpart……
If you are posting satire, you are brilliant…. if even you take your pathetic drivel seriously…… you are beyond anyones reach.
And completely wrong about your self serving ‘assessment’ of me, by the way. Hey, it’s official: You are wrong aboug EVERYTHING!!!!
Joseph says
@ Michael Horn
I would stop smelling your left hand fingers so much.
It is causing you brain damage.
More Ham Ed says
“BTW, I see that I wasn’t censored, just that my posts didn’t show up for a while.”
“lack of self-control and arrogance”
You seem to be describing yourself.
M O R E H A M !
RIKARDO SALNGAM says
Time magazine become a coward?, pursue only advetrising instead of idealism?. America was build with Blood for their Liberty. American become subject to “not stand for their right”?. Where is the guts of all American now?., where those wild wild west charachter goes?. American has beeen living on their comfort zone and hedonism?, where those pioneers caharacter gone?, where the American heroism to defeat evil doing character gone?. It’s seems to me Michael Horns discribing himself as an average American coward.
prman says
No argument here. Just ad hominem invective.
Michael Horn says
This is the problem, whether it’s just in nasty words or in…cartoons. People need to grow up and understand that there are those who don’t play by the rules, they slaughter people. Name calling ins’t an effective way with dealing with them, or with those who are trying to encourage real, purposeful actions.
PGuud says
Michael,
You’re an appeaser. Appeasing is what cowards do.
Freedom of speech is non-negotiable. Even a man condemned to death has the right to curse his judge/jury/executioner (albeit in a proper setting)–and he should damn well have that right!
They want to slaughter us? Let the Muslim savages come at us. We are an armed nation–armed to the teeth. Instead of cowering from their threats and terrorism, we should be standing tall and reminding them of that fact.
Terrorists have given up their right to life by virtue of their terrorism. Therefore, we need to wipe them out. The only thing that you’re doing is making excuses to appease them.
Man up and join the small part of the freedom-loving world that is actually making a stand for freedom–one aspect of which you believe should be curbed–or be a coward and submit to the demands of terrorists.
Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.
Know Thy Enemy says
@Michael Horn,
How many Christians “who don’t play by the rules”, have slaughtered people ever since Andres Serrano displayed Piss Christ?? (That would be ever since 1987.)
Steve Brown says
Michael Horn.
Yeah there are people out there dedicated to slaughter. But what you fail to mention is that these ones are legitimately using their religion to justify this and the vast majority of their co-religionists either stay silent or attack (verbally) those who would point this out.
Islam like any other religion or ideology cannot be immune to criticism or parody. Religion no matter how many people believe in it is still a belief system and not necessarily the one and only truth and everything within it MUST be open to discussion and debate.
c matt says
Name calling ins’t (sic) an effective way with dealing with them
I don’t know, this time it seemed pretty effective. Smoke ’em out, take ’em out.
blake says
How exactly did she censor your comment? You are a moron and oblivious to reality.
porklover says
Why do we have to fight, once again for freedom we already secured long ago?
Bill says
God protect you Ms. Geller. You are truly a patriot. May God forgive your critics. May God and humanity reject Islam.
Margaret says
God bless and keep you, Pamela. Thank you for everything you do. You are a true hero.
Rev. Albert W. Kovacs - UCC says
The spirit of Queen Esther is still alive – in Pamela Geller. She has singled out the misguided character of Islam and Islamist jihadists. As long as there are voices like hers America will be the land of the free. We are indebted to her for her courage and we pray God will raise up protectors of her life. – Reformed Church pastor.
Michael Horn says
This is painfully clear. Certain actions led to certain results. The lesson should have been learned from Charlie Hebdo, another exercise in arrogance that cost people their lives.
Such things as these are not stopping radical Islamic fundamentalists; they kill hundreds of innocent people on a regular basis. We DON’T need Pamela Geller to effectively martyr herself to see the problem. It does absolutely nothing useful in terms of stopping it or protecting others.
If the world doesn’t already recognize the barbarity of these terrorist acts and the threat that they pose to all of humanity, then prodding and taunting the angry beast, as if this was just some schoolyard game, is an ill thought out, emotional and pointless act.
Bezelel says
Horn, you are boring.
Huck Folder says
Born whoring.
Western Canadian says
You utterly pathetic, sniveling, pant-wetting little pustule of ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, self aggrandizement, dishonesty, and general run of the mill assdom!! You have not been ‘censored’ in the least on this board. You have been given the ‘free speech’ right to demonstrate that you are so sickeningly ignorant that you can’t see how blind you are, so stupid you can’t begin to fathom hos sickening the drivel you post is, and yes, you DID take advantage of that right….. And you were bitch-slapped down, and you promptly doubled down on stupid, and offered up more utter drivel. You are stupid and ignorant enough to offer up a comment that fits in describing the world… in the Newtonian sense… Hate to be the one to tell you (no, I really don’t hate it… I just admit it is a complete waste of time…. your stupidity is so extreme NOTHING can penetrate it!!!) that sub atomic physics…. oh why the hell bother…. ’cause and effect’ does NOT apply to everything, especially ignorant and stupid louts like you, and all the other muslims. You are so far beyond ignorant that you are less than worthless. You are so far beyond worthless that you would feel quite at home in a madras, abusing the poor children unlucky enough to be left in your charge. OH, by the way, I will be looking for YOUR blog… and when I find it, you will wet your pants and whine and snivel, jus as you have done, here.
Western Canadian says
If anyone wants to get inside the head of the screaming, pant wetting lout Michael horn….. WHY??? He’s a raving lunatic, and if you click on his name, it will direct you to a non-site, because he mis-spelled .com as .om
Go to this site, and you will know ALL about this loony toon!!!! Good for a few laughs, but when you start shaking your head in amazement, it is time to leave!!!! TINFOIL HAT ZONE WARNING!!!!
Michael Horn says
Since you’re all worked up with your unrestrained venom, I’ll take the opportunity to suggest that people can read my blog titled:
The Only Way to Stop the IS
I assume that it’s not polite ego post links here so suffice it to say that my blog is called theyflyblog.
While that particular one only has 99 comments, if you browse around you’ll find others that number in the…hundreds. I didn’t come here to promote it but since there are over 420 articles that I authored there, anyone who actually wants to get a sense of what my work is about can determine it for themselves.
However, I also suggest that you’ll find that we try to…think our way through difficult topics, not demonstrate our lack of self-control and infantile machismo to make points.
Western Canadian says
You are so far beyond pathetic!!!!! You are an absolute SCREAM!! I haven’t seen self indulgent swill like yours, since a third year psych class!!!!!
Champ says
Michael Horn wrote:
I didn’t come here to promote it but since there are over 420 articles that I authored there, anyone who actually wants to get a sense of what my work is about can determine it for themselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’ve already gotten a “sense” of your work from your offerings here — so no thank you.
Know Thy Enemy says
Before I check out your blog Michael Horn, answer me this- What according to Islam, is the status of a Muslim w.r.t another Muslim, in times of war?
Mo says
@ Michael Horn
“This is painfully clear. Certain actions led to certain results.”
One certain action that leads to a certain result is:
Give in to a bully and they will bully you even more.
“The lesson should have been learned from Charlie Hebdo, another exercise in arrogance that cost people their lives.”
Liar. Cartoons didn’t cost anyone their lives. Cartoons are inanimate things. They are literally just lines on a piece of paper or on a computer screen. They are incapable of making any choices or committing any actions because they are not alive or sentient to do any such thing. (It’s frightening that we now have to EXPLAIN such a thing to anyone over the age of five!)
Muslims, following the dictates of their warlord, child rapist “prophet”, Mohammad, cost those people their lives.
What about these facts do you not understand?
Michael Horn says
It’s more frightening that people are still locked into their self-centered world view so much that they don’t get it when violent, irrational people use any (and no) excuse to commit murder and still insist on being “right” at the expense of their own lives.
Cartoons certainly don’t “make” anyone do anything. But if you insist on defying the unpleasant realites we’re now faced with, go ahead and provoke the consequences. It WON’T be the cartoonists who stop the IS.
BTW, since you’re so sure about who Mohammed was, even though he’s been dead for centuries, how do you feel about the…Catholic Church, which institutionalized child abuse, persecuted, tortured and killed women over the centuries, etc., etc., etc.?
Western Canadian says
Now what is it about this no-reply that just screams ‘MH is a blinkered idiot!!!’. If you guessed ‘all of it’, congratulations!! You won.
Blitz2b says
@ Michael Horn “…We DON’T need Pamela Geller to effectively martyr herself to see the problem…..”
Who then? You? ? With your pathetic drivel, you seem to be in bed with the enemy.
Leave us to choose our own heroes, while you banter about injustices done to those who seek to end us and our freedoms.
Ciao,
PatnTrucks says
Maybe you think I should go and get my cartoon drawing back from the Muhammed Art Contest? #157 by the way.. I served in the military, and I’m a woman, but I think I’ve got more brass in my little finger nail that you’ve got in your whole……??? whereever. Geez man, grow a pair, would’ya? Or wear a dress and carry a pink lolly pop so the rest of us will know to avoid you. I’ve defended my country, and still do. If YOU are not brave, if you do not have courage, then just go away and let the rest of us take care of things. We’ll knock on the closet door and let you know when it’s safe to come back out. Geez…..
Michael Horn says
I don’t know who’s addressing me, what’s your actual name?
Bezelel says
PatnTrucks, You’re precious.
Michael Horn says
Yes, like you, preciously anonymous.
Suggested reading:
So far there’s no evidence that ANYONE on this blog is invovled with military strategy and tactics, just lots of anonymous, foul mouthed blowhards who want to feel tough. Did the military train you to call people names and boast about your imagined prowess as an effective tactic? I don’t think so. Hotheads don’t make for good officers either.
Many here freely speak violently to their…fellow citizens who disagree with them. There’s little doubt that, given the opportunity, they’d attack or shoot them too. So there’s not so much difference between the enemy and those who seek to suppress the rights and expression of those here who disagree with them.
They also are disrespectful of the religious beliefs of 2 billion people, the majority of whom are not involved in the fundamentalist terror. In fact, millions of Muslims, or more, have lived their entire lives, minding their own business, contributing to their communities, raising their families, etc., without a drop of such negative behavior. But your stupid cartoon shows – and really all the other demonizing of every Muslim in the world – simply recruits more terrorists. It’s used to show how violent and dangerous Americans are, etc.
They DON’T “hate us for our freedoms”. They hate us for trampling on theirs.
But you have decided to insult all Muslims because they’re all obviously inferior to you geniuses and, most likely, your equally ridiculous religious beliefs.
It doesn’t matter to you that innocent human beings are worthy of respect and being treated as you would like to be treated yourselves. Kinda like the..Golden Rule; ever hear of it? It’s actualy an expression of…cause and effect.
No, you’re gonna show them a thing or too, knowing and disregarding the fact that the insane ones will thank you for announcing your presence by trying to kill you and as many OTHER people as may be around.
The threat from terrorists is real. It’s certainly here, in this country. And so is the threat from the ignorant and self-righteous, who don’t even consider how reckless, irresponsible and stupid it is to be creating and announcing public displays of these kinds of defamatory cartoon shows, etc. Why? Because no thought is given to any and all of the innocent people who may get caught in the crossfire, injured or killed if they even work, live or walk by such an event.
But that doesn’t matter to these unthinking people. They’re gonna show those terrorists a thing or two! They just haven’t noticed that the enemy isn’t announcing where its “protests” are going to be, its attacks, its already very present…sleeper cells.
Maybe watching all those Rambo movies and palying video games hasn’t exactly prepared you for what this is all about. Mr. Meier started warning about this in 1958, 1981, 1987, 1995, etc. And he warned about what was coming to OUR country because of our insane, aggressive military policies worldwide.
Angemon says
Michael Horn posted:
“Many here freely speak violently to their…fellow citizens who disagree with them.”
Define “speak violently” and “disagree”.
“There’s little doubt that, given the opportunity, they’d attack or shoot them too.”
Really? How so? On what basis are you doing that absurdly ridiculous assertion?
“So there’s not so much difference between the enemy and those who seek to suppress the rights and expression of those here who disagree with them.”
So basically, because people here have no intention of submitting to islamic supremacism, and because you randomly decided that those more vocal would shoot someone, then they’re as bad as the wanna-be jihadi losers?
“They also are disrespectful of the religious beliefs of 2 billion people”
Where are you getting that “2 billion” number from? And how is drawing muhammad being disrespectful of any religious belief?
“the majority of whom are not involved in the fundamentalist terror.”
That’s not the same as saying they don’t support it or the terrorists. Most Germans in WWII weren’t nazis, and look how that turned out.
“In fact, millions of Muslims, or more, have lived their entire lives, minding their own business, contributing to their communities, raising their families, etc., without a drop of such negative behavior.”
Once again, that doesn’t mean they don’t think islam should be the law of the land, that apostates should be killed, that gays should be stoned, that women should have less rights than men, etc.
“But your stupid cartoon shows”
“Our” stupid cartoons? Ah, the mask starts to slip.
“– and really all the other demonizing of every Muslim in the world –”
Do explain how drawing muhammad amounts to “demonizing every muslim in the world”.
“simply recruits more terrorists. It’s used to show how violent and dangerous Americans are, etc.”
Whoa, Americans are drawing muhammad? That’s like, so dangerous!!!! Must be the reason why muslims in Iraq pack bomb vests and go blow themselves up in the middle of other muslims – because someone drew muahmmad in America. And, of course, your defense of jihad terror fails to explain the 1400 years of jihad terror before this contest, over 1000 of them before America existed.
The fact of the matter is, muslims commit terror acts because of what their religion teaches.
“They DON’T “hate us for our freedoms”. They hate us for trampling on theirs.”
Oh really? And exactly how is drawing muhammad trampling on the freedom of muslims?
“But you have decided to insult all Muslims”
Once again, in which way drawing muhammad an insult to all muslims?
“because they’re all obviously inferior to you geniuses”
Your words, not the words of any regular here.
“and, most likely, your equally ridiculous religious beliefs.”
I don’t believe in any God or religion. Therefore, by your nonsensical logic, I’m free to draw muhammad and insult muslims.
“It doesn’t matter to you that innocent human beings are worthy of respect and being treated as you would like to be treated yourselves.”
Once again, how is drawing muhammad akin to disrespecting innocent human beings? And if you want to go on about “the way you’d like to be treated”, then I’d like to draw muhammad without having people trying to kill me since I’ll never try to kill anyone for drawing muhammad.
“Kinda like the..Golden Rule; ever hear of it?”
Yes. All major religions abide by it. Except islam (which shouldn’t be considered a religion, but that’s a discussion for another time), which teaches that muslims must be soft to one another and harsh with non-muslims.
“It’s actualy an expression of…cause and effect.”
Nope.
“No, you’re gonna show them a thing or too, knowing and disregarding the fact that the insane ones will thank you for announcing your presence by trying to kill you and as many OTHER people as may be around.”
The wanna-be jihadi losers didn’t try to kill people because they were insane. They tried to kill people because that’s what islam teaches.
“The threat from terrorists is real.”
Are yo implying that Buddhist terrorists are as much of a threat as islamic terrorists?
“It’s certainly here, in this country. And so is the threat from the ignorant and self-righteous, who don’t even consider how reckless, irresponsible and stupid it is to be creating and announcing public displays of these kinds of defamatory cartoon shows, etc.”
So basically, the problem is that people keep insisting in using their right to free speech, and therefore it’s ok to go out and kill them.
“Why? Because no thought is given to any and all of the innocent people who may get caught in the crossfire, injured or killed if they even work, live or walk by such an event.”
Huh, you do know that the goal of the exhibit was not to get people killed by jihadis, right? You do know that the losers who got killed were the ones trying to kill innocents, right?
“But that doesn’t matter to these unthinking people.”
By “unthinking” you mean “unwilling to lay down and surrender their freedoms to islamic thugs hellbent on squelching them”, right?
“They’re gonna show those terrorists a thing or two!”
And they did. They showed them that they won’t kowtow to violent intimidation and that they are willing to put their lives where their mouths are.
“They just haven’t noticed that the enemy isn’t announcing where its “protests” are going to be, its attacks, its already very present…sleeper cells.”
Are those sleeper cells the result of the exhibit? Are you implying that those sleeper cells already existed before the exhibit and therefore your vitriol against the exhibition and its participants is null and void? Or are you making a veiled threat – “we are here. Abide by sharia, or else we’ll strike without warning”.
“Maybe watching all those Rambo movies and palying video games hasn’t exactly prepared you for what this is all about.”
I think Red Dawn is a better fit to the circumstances.
“Mr. Meier started warning about this in 1958, 1981, 1987, 1995, etc. And he warned about what was coming to OUR country because of our insane, aggressive military policies worldwide.”
Once again, you’re contradicting yourself. You’re saying that the attack on the exhibit was the result not of the exhibit itself but of policies worldwide. And this attack is the result not of alleged “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” but if islamic teachings. You don’t see, for example, Cubans, Russians, or Venezuelans committing the same kind of attacks as muslim terrorists. America had troops in Germany and Japan for decades after WWII. By your “logic” we should have had Germans and Japanese waging the same kind of terrorism as muslims. And your despicable, pathetic defense of islamic terrorism relies on ignorance from the listener – exactly what “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” were enacted by, for example, the Spaniards, Franks or Italians back in the 7th and 8th century, when muslim armies invaded their countries? What “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” did the newly-declared United States of America engaged back on the 18th century, when their cargo ships were captured by muslims? Thomas Jefferson wrote the answer he got to “why are you attacking us when we’ve done you no wrong?”:
“It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.“
Michael Horn says
Ah yes, yet another coward with a…screen name.
A fee responses for you nonetheless.
1. “Define “speak violently” and “disagree.”:
Read all the name calling and blustering directed at me for daring to suggest something other than the party line here. It’s not hard to find.
2. “There’s little doubt that, given the opportunity, they’d attack or shoot them too.”, Really? How so? On what basis are you doing that absurdly ridiculous assertion?”:
On the basis of the references to calling someone a traitor, pink, all the macho talk about weapons, blowing holes in someone’s chest, the various posturing, etc. Maybe I missed the comments where people actually reasoned and considered that there just may be some validity to thining and not so much to…hysteria.
3. “So there’s not so much difference between the enemy and those who seek to suppress the rights and expression of those here who disagree with them.”, So basically, because people here have no intention of submitting to islamic supremacism, and because you randomly decided that those more vocal would shoot someone, then they’re as bad as the wanna-be jihadi losers?”:
This isn’t about “submitting to islamic supremacism”. It’s about not respecting the rights of other people who have their beliefs…and I’m NOT referring to Islamic terrorists.
4. “They also are disrespectful of the religious beliefs of 2 billion people”, Where are you getting that “2 billion” number from?”:
From an online search for how many Muslims there are estimated to be. Does that make any difference to you now?
5. “And how is drawing muhammad being disrespectful of any religious belief?”:
Ah yes, more of the self-centered “Ugly American” syndrome. Since the drawings are DELIBERATELY assaultive, defamatory, ridiculing of the most sacred beliefs of…someone else. Of course YOU’LL determine what’s disrespectful to another, not them, right? And if you’re treated that way, I’m sure you’d love it.
6. “the majority of whom are not involved in the fundamentalist terror.”, That’s not the same as saying they don’t support it or the terrorists. Most Germans in WWII weren’t nazis, and look how that turned out.”
So now you’re also the…THOUGHT POLICE. And you can presume to know – and therefore defame – what 2 billion are thinking. Of course with dim-witted thinking such as is widely expressed on this forum it’s more than likely that you’re helping to recruit more anti-American sentiment, supprt for the radical MINORITY, etc., in other words, just the opposite of what peple purport this to be all about.
7. “In fact, millions of Muslims, or more, have lived their entire lives, minding their own business, contributing to their communities, raising their families, etc., without a drop of such negative behavior.”, Once again, that doesn’t mean they don’t think islam should be the law of the land, that apostates should be killed, that gays should be stoned, that women should have less rights than men, etc.:
Well, Mr/Ms. THOUGHT POLICE, I’m sure some do. BTW, what’s been the attitude and “thoughts” of some fundamentalist Christians towards gays, women’s rights, etc.? Sure, most just pray to their imaginary “God” to kill gays, etc., but of course gays have been killed by some “good, God-fearing Christians”; ever hear of the KuKlux Klan? Thankfully there’s far less of that now than in the past in this country. Oh yeah, you do know that many peple think that this is a “Christian nation” and you know that Israel is a “Jewish state” any problem with that…or the decades of persecution of the Palestinians by Israel?
8. “But your stupid cartoon shows”, “Our” stupid cartoons? Ah, the mask starts to slip.:
No mask to slip. I’m not a Muslim and I have ZERO respect for people’s silly religious beliefs, any beleifs in fact, and I hope they feel the same way about me and mine. But yes, STUPID…as well as ugly, rude, defamatory, etc. You see, Mr/Ms. THOUGHT POLICE, the very low level of thinking here is such that you who support this follishness have decided to insult ALL Muslims…instead of doing something actual and practical about radical Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.
As mentioned elsewhere in my comments, we’ve been publishing information showing the real danger of this terroism…since 1958. We created a petition to form a MILITARY force of 300,000+ soldiers as:
The Only Way to Stop the IS (info on theyflyblog)
…but most of the wrold is too cowardly to actually act. And a bunch of blustering, anonymous, online hotheads who deliberately insult ALL beleivers in a faith that they don’t share is not only inflammatory but actually cowardly as well.
As for the rest of your so-called points, you keep broadbrushing all Muslims – despite no evidence that the majority of Muslims adhere to and/or behave as terrorists. The additional foolishness of the cartoon shows, apart from their intellectual and practical impotence, is that such things all too readily create more tensions between human beings, which despite the chauvenism, prejudice and BIGOTRY here, includes Muslims.
They also put innocent, non-involved, non-consenting people at MORE risk than otherwise.
While Ms. Geller can be said to be “courageous” for putting her real identity foreward for such ill thought out – publicity seeking – ventures, which have now made her more of a target along with family, freinds, etc., it’s the antithesis of the kind of thoughtful, REAL strategy that needs to be employed in terms of dealing with the enemy in our midst (which, yes, we helped to create through our intolerable, invasive military and foreign policies).
These kinds of tauntings that are then used to justify anti-Muslim sentiments are the work of fools. We don’t need to try to “flush out” these homicidal maniacs through IRRESPONSIBLE behaviors that unnecessarily insult billions of people…and only increase the existing danger to the population. Support REAL efforts to deal with the huge problem that is the IS -start your own petition, etc. – as well as real intelligence efforts at detecting and stopping those here who right now are the ones benefiting from the noise makers.
Angemon says
Michael Horn posted:
“Read all the name calling and blustering directed at me for daring to suggest something other than the party line here. It’s not hard to find.”
Says the guy who started a reply calling me a coward because I don’t tow his party line.
“On the basis of the references to calling someone a traitor, pink, all the macho talk about weapons, blowing holes in someone’s chest, the various posturing, etc.”
So your absurdly ridiculous assertion is based on a absurdly ridiculous reasoning. Got it.
“Maybe I missed the comments where people actually reasoned and considered that there just may be some validity to thining and not so much to…hysteria.”
Missed? More like “purposedly ignored”.
“This isn’t about “submitting to islamic supremacism”.”
How is this not about submitting to islamic supremacism when you’re insisting that people submit to islamic supremacism?
“It’s about not respecting the rights of other people who have their beliefs”
Exactly, how does the exhibit disrespects the rights of other people who have beliefs? I have beliefs, and I certainly wasn’t disrespected by the exhibit, much like i wasn’t disrespected by the piss-Christ. It seems to me your recording is scratched – you go around talking about disrespecting other people without ever actually explaining how those other people are being disrespected.
“Does that make any difference to you now?”
It does, and your answer was very enlightening.
“Ah yes, more of the self-centered “Ugly American” syndrome.”
Too bad I’m not American, so your canned response misses its mark.
“Since the drawings are DELIBERATELY assaultive, defamatory, ridiculing of the most sacred beliefs of…someone else.”
And who gets to decide what’s “assaultive, defamatory” or “ridiculing”? Here’s the winning cartoon. Explain, in detail, how it’s ” assaultive, defamatory” and “ridiculing”:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/muhammed-sword-winner.png
“Of course YOU’LL determine what’s disrespectful to another, not them, right?”
I never claimed I did. In fact, I asked you who gets to decide, since you apparently decided that the drawings are “DELIBERATELY assaultive, defamatory” and “ridiculing”. Since you claim not to be a muslim, you’re incurring in the exact same behaviour you accused me of.
“So now you’re also the…THOUGHT POLICE. And you can presume to know – and therefore defame – what 2 billion are thinking.”
Nope. Those are your shticks, not mine – you’re the one insulting people for what they think and making assumption about muslims worldwide. I’m merely stating a fact – just because muslims are not going around killing people it doesn’t mean that they don’t support those that do it. Last time I checked, it’s muslims who dance and distribute candy in the streets to celebrate jihadi attacks.
“Of course with dim-witted thinking such as is widely expressed on this forum it’s more than likely that you’re helping to recruit more anti-American sentiment, supprt for the radical MINORITY, etc., in other words, just the opposite of what peple purport this to be all about.”
So by pointing out that muslim terrorists commit acts of terror because of what islam teaches about reaching paradise we’re helping to recruit muslims to commit acts of terror because they want to get into paradise? Now, unlike you I don’t act like I know what’s on the minds of the “2 billion” muslims worldwide, but I submit you this: if islam teaches that killing infidels, or dying while trying to do so, ensures a place in their heavenly brothel, then they’ll do it anyway regardless of what we say – why would a devout muslim care about what a non-muslim thinks about their religion?
“Well, Mr/Ms. THOUGHT POLICE, I’m sure some do.”
And yet, you conveniently left it out of your assertion.
“BTW, what’s been the attitude and “thoughts” of some fundamentalist Christians towards gays, women’s rights, etc.?”
They certainly aren’t going around throwing them off buildings or stoning them, like muslims are doing. Besides, that’s completely unrelated to what muslims worldwide think about jihad, which is what’s being discussed. Focus, Michael, focus! Or can’t you talk about muslims without going “oh yeah? Well, Christians”. That doesn’t bode well for you…
“ I have ZERO respect for people’s silly religious beliefs, any beleifs in fact, and I hope they feel the same way about me and mine.”
So let me guess this straight. You say that you have no respect for any beliefs and that you expect others to fell the same about your beliefs as well AFTER you spent a nice chunk of time insulting people for what they believe – i.e., that they shouldn’t kowtow to thugs with weapons forcing their beliefs on them.
“ you who support this follishness have decided to insult ALL Muslims”
Once again: how is supporting free speech insulting ALL muslims? And why is standing for freedom of speech “foolishness”? How about a little less repeating of propaganda, a little less throwing of insults around – like a monkey with its feces – and a bit more of explaining your “points”?
“As for the rest of your so-called points, you keep broadbrushing all Muslims – despite no evidence that the majority of Muslims adhere to and/or behave as terrorists.”
Nope. I challenged your notion that the cause of isamic terrorism is “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” (even though you enver actually give any example) by pointing out that the ideology driving, for example, the islamic state, is the same ideology that drove muslim armies since the 7th century – once again, what “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” were enacted by, for example, the Spaniards, Franks or Italians back in the 7th and 8th century, when muslim armies invaded their countries? What “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” did the newly-declared United States of America engaged back on the 18th century, when their cargo ships were captured by muslims?
“The additional foolishness of the cartoon shows, apart from their intellectual and practical impotence, is that such things all too readily create more tensions between human beings, which despite the chauvenism, prejudice and BIGOTRY here, includes Muslims.”
Right, we wouldn’t want to create tensions with people whose religion teaches that we are to be treated like subhuman trash. No need to rock the boat, don’t do art exhibits of muhammad and you’ll be fine. What’s next? We need to stop using pork at barbecues because if offends muslims, and we wouldn’t want to cause tensions? We need to stop having dogs as pets because it’s offensive to muslims?
You know, for someone who claims to have ZERO respect for silly religious beliefs (like, for example, the prohibition of drawing one individual who probably didn’t exist), you’re going really out of your way to defend a silly religious belief. Also, can you point who here said muslims weren’t human beings? Or are you just ad libbing and fibbing for dramatic effect?
“(which, yes, we helped to create through our intolerable, invasive military and foreign policies)”
Once again: the ideology driving, for example, the islamic state, is the same ideology that drove muslim armies since the 7th century – once again, what “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” were enacted by, for example, the Spaniards, Franks or Italians back in the 7th and 8th century, when muslim armies invaded their countries? What “insane, aggressive military policies worldwide” did the newly-declared United States of America engaged back on the 18th century, when their cargo ships were captured by muslims?
It seems to me that you already made up your mind: muslims have done nothing wrong and if they’re doing something wrong then it’s because they’re simple, passive, simple minded creatures with no initiative, limited to reacting to external stimulus. That’s what you’re saying when you try to pin all the blame on the US. Like I said, you don’t see, for example, Cubans, Russians, or Venezuelans committing the same kind of attacks as muslim terrorists. America had troops in Germany and Japan for decades after WWII. By your “logic” we should have had Germans and Japanese waging the same kind of terrorism as muslims.
“We don’t need to try to “flush out” these homicidal maniacs through IRRESPONSIBLE behaviors that unnecessarily insult billions of people…”
Again with the repetition of propaganda? Once again, how is the exhibit insulting to “billions of people”, especially when the overwhelming majority worldwide won’t ever know the exhibit took place? And why are you so adamant in blaming the victim and shoving your re-writing of history down our throats?
Peggy says
Bravo. He has no idea what his way means. Who is provoking the Islamists in the ME thus forcing them to kill Christians, Jews, gays and anyone else they can think of? How many cartoon shows do they hold there? I think this guy wouldn’t be able to answer these questions which only shows lack of intellingence.
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
Great analysis.
Jim says
In all the discourse it is quite apparent most of the media talking heads have no idea what Islam actually is. Fact: Islam is both a religion AND political ideology (shariah); they go hand in glove. Fact: Islam recognizes one form of government as legitimate, shariah. All other forms of government, democracy, communism, dictatorship, etc. are ‘man-made” and therefore illegitimate. All illegitimate governments according to Islam MUST be replaced by sharia, to the glory of Allah. THAT is what the morons in the media either don’t understand or don’t care to report. By their comments I tend to think most are simply ignorant of this fact.
PatnTrucks says
Right on target Mr. Jim! It is obvious none have read the kooran. I read that damnable pos 2 years ago and was appalled. THIS??? This ain’t no religion of peace! No how, no way! Kill, kill kill, beat wives, kill kill kill, etc. Social system of BARBARIC proportions. Sad that 1.2 billion muslims are held captive by the millions who hold them hostage thru murder, rapings, child rapes, etc. Sad. The koran is the ravings of a manman, a psychopath. By the way, I recommend to know how really BAD muham was read: F.W. Burleigh’s new bio on muhammed: “It’s All About Muhammed; the World’s Most Notorious Prophet” on amazon at $16, or amazon kindl at $6
What a warped ass bastard muhammed was!
islam is of Of no redeeming value, neither is Muhamm’s piss ant social system of wife beating, child raping, raping (women and girls and little boys), stealing other people’s belongings and murdering them….that what the koran is all about.
Jim Matteson says
Thank you Pam. You have true grit. Rooster Cogburn (John Wayne) would be proud. Please be safe.
Mo says
@ Michael Horn says
“It’s more frightening that people are still locked into their self-centered world view so much that they don’t get it when violent, irrational people use any (and no) excuse to commit murder and still insist on being “right” at the expense of their own lives.”
What a totally incoherent statement. You just referred to “violent, irrational people” who “use any (and no) excuse to commit murder”. If that’s the case, then how do we know what will or won’t be used as an excuse for them to commit murder? According to your own statement, anything might set them off!
The only way to guarantee them not finding that excuse is for us to not exist. The only way to do that is to be dead. THAT’S what you’re advocating for here, isn’t it? If we were all dead, then they wouldn’t have any excuse to commit murder.
“Cartoons certainly don’t “make” anyone do anything.”
Glad you have some sanity.
“But if you insist on defying the unpleasant realites we’re now faced with, go ahead and provoke the consequences.”
But you just said that these violent, irrational people use any or no excuse to commit murder. So why are you still blaming the victims?
” It WON’T be the cartoonists who stop the IS.”
I don’t understand this bit.
“BTW, since you’re so sure about who Mohammed was, even though he’s been dead for centuries, ”
The information about Mohammad is available to anyone. Why don’t YOU know who he was?
“how do you feel about the…Catholic Church, which institutionalized child abuse, persecuted, tortured and killed women over the centuries, etc., etc., etc.?
LOL! Here we go. We’re talking about Islam and you’re going to change the topic to the Catholic Church. Neither the Catholic Church nor the Bible have any open-ended commands for believers to commit violence against unbelievers. That’s why there are no Catholics or Christians of any stripe, or Jews committing such acts on a regular basis, all over the world, in obedience to any such commands. Period. Those commands don’t exist and these instances don’t exist.
Looks like you’ve come to the wrong website, buddy. We don’t fall for that moral equivalence nonsense here!
Western Canadian says
His tinfoil hat seems to be as tight a fit as ever….. Notice the lack of examples of his attack on the RC church?? One I have no time for, by the way…
More Ham Ed says
The unholy ko ‘ran provoked the attack, rather the now fallen once-beautiful angel who wrote it, i.e. the satanic verses. However, it probably was the IDF with their time machine who went back in time and put the violent verses into the unholy ko ‘ran. You know, muslim paranoia. Those sneaky Israelis. Those of you know I jest. More ham Ed, peas be upon ’em.
Lilithwept says
Erm, you all, have you went to that blog, theyflyblog? There is another site, theyfly.com …….Go and check out theyflyblog and click on About Billy. This person, who is associated in some way with Michael Horn,or maybe its Michael Horn is associated with this person Billy, this person Billy believes he has been in contact with extra terrestrials since he was 5.
Just go check outbthe blog and website.
Mo says
@ Lilithwept
EEK, but that website was scary! According to the info, “Michael Horn is the Authorized American Media Representative for the Billy Meier Contacts.”
Wow, there are some seriously disturbed people in the world. It’s probably best not to interact with this Michael Horn person. He’s clearly not all there. Thanks for the heads up!
Michael Horn says
Submitted without links:
November 28, 2014. We weren’t…drawing cartoons:
The Only Way to Stop the IS
Maybe all the anonymous, macho blowhards would like to join that force…instead of threatening people online and IMPOTENT name calling.
Meier warned in 1958:
83.) And it will be that fanatical Islamists carry out bloody revenge on the distant descendants of the Christians, for their earlier crusades when they accomplish their deadly and destructive acts through irrepressible terror all over the world.
He warned again in 1987 Henoch Prophecies
175. And it will be that the fanatics of Islam will rise up against the countries of Europe and all will shake and quiver.
176. Everything in the West will be destroyed; England will be conquered and thrown down to the lowest level of misery.
177. And the fanatics and warriors of Islam will retain their power for a long time.
217. Far in the West, it will be different; the United States of America will be a country of total destruction.
218. The cause for this will be manifold.
219. With her global conflicts which are continuously instigated by her and which will continue far into the future, America is creating enormous hatred against her, worldwide, in many countries.
220. As a result, America will experience enormous catastrophes which will reach proportions barely imaginable to people of Earth.
221. The destruction of the WTC, i.e., the World Trade Center, by terrorists will only be the beginning.
258. However, the main objective of the aggressors will be to bring all of Europe under their military control, and for that purpose France will be selected to be the headquarters. France will not only be invaded by the aggressors from the outside, but will also be conquered from within as a result of collaborative forces and other forces.
259. This can be envisioned as being the many foreigners of a different religion living in France at that time, and specifically Islam, which will be this force working from within.
286. Yet the misery on Earth will continue, as two terrible civil wars will break out in America, whereby one will follow the other.
287. Afterwards, the United States of America will break apart and deadly hostility will prevail among her, which then leads to the division into five different territories; and it cannot be prevented that sectarian fanatics will play a dictatorial role.
Western Canadian says
Someone ‘predicted’ that islam (RTC) would again do what it has been doing since it’s abominable creation!!! WOW!!! I’M SO IMPRESSED!!
Not.
duh_swami says
Hannity should shut up and quit talking over his guests…Choudary was doing a fine job explaining why Islam should be utterly rejected in the west, and Hannity kept cutting him off. Pam was right, this is war. There are two groups of enemies, The ‘Army of the Dead’, which is comprised of calcified liberals, leftists, and assorted cowardly enablers, who’s mantra is, ‘Please don’t hurt me’… And the Army of Allah, comprised of the pious, who’s manta is Allahu Akbar.
There’s only one way to stand up to a bully, and that’s to stand up to the bully…If you don’t you will lose your lunch money and maybe your life…
American says
God bless you Ms. Geller. You are a true American hero.
michaelwarden says
I would like to say ” Je suis Pamela Geller ” but I really don’t have the legs .
David says
Pamela should be saying, it’s a war – of words. We all would evolve by paying attention to the Truths ALL prophets taught. Its the Message, not the Messenger that is of true Value
All religions have been somewhat adjusted by words repeated to Beliefs which are used to good and to evil. By not having Absolute Truths of the Creation to study, we all are somewhat handicapped to our beliefs.
– Moses, for example. Did he really wander in the dessert for 40 years or was it 40 weeks? Was the old testament embellished? The 12 commandments were need to align primitive thinking towards one Creation.
-Immanuel: How can all sins be forgiven for all time since sins are errors that cause learning and evolution? Was it not the Church that invented this idea after he lived?
Mohammed – Jihad was taught for self defense against attackers back then, which is appropriate.
yet now the Teaching is distorted to kill, which is wrong… clearly the Koran had to have been edited after his death —due to the tribal people of the time fighting over words.
… and now 700 years later, repetition of words overshadow true understanding which comes from within from our inner spiritual consciousness, the source of Love.
So it’s a war – of words.
.
We have to step back and think…what is a Prophet?
A prophet is never able to lead an easy, unburdened and soft life.
If, therefore, life forms emerge as alleged truth-bringers, respectively as prophets, and their lives do not run in the hardest courses, then they can never be truth-bringers and prophets.
These are then also only able to announce illogical and wrong “truths” through which the life forms fall into all kinds of enslavement and become dependent on unreal things.
However, true truth-bringers and prophets bring words and truths of freedom and of knowledge, love and wisdom in absolute logic.
Prophets bring only the teaching of the truth, which is eternally constant and can never be amended.
The eternal truth always remains the eternal truth, even if, as stipulated by language development, it must be brought again and again with new words and terms.
here is the entire list…all 7.
Henoch 3rd February, 9308 B.C. 1st January, 8942 B.C.
Elia (Elja) 5th February, 891 B.C 4th June, 780 B.C.
Jesaia (Jesaja) 7th February, 772 B.C. 5th May, 690 B.C.
Jeremia (Jeremja) 9th February, 662 B.C. 3rd September, 580 B.C.
Jmmanuel 3rd February, 002 A.D. 9th May, 111 A.D.
Mohammed 19th of February, 571 A.D. 8th June, 632 A.D.
Eduard Albert Meier 3rd of February, 1937 A.D.
Peace in Wisdom to all .
Blitz2b says
@ David, you say “…..Prophets bring only the teaching of the truth, which is eternally constant and can never be amended….”
But how does one decipher truth from lies? Specifically speaking, all that Mohammed loud-mouthed into the world as “divine revelation”, were utter lies, self serving prophecies and well….. plain rubbish, which according to both the Jewish and Christian understanding of scriptures proved that this man was indeed a con-artist and a charlatan.
So I’m not sure what kind of wool you are trying to pull over our eyes here, but think about it for a moment. Would we not have serious issues trusting an murderer, thief, rapist, or a pedophile to carry a message for us, to our loved ones, in this day and age? Why then would we trust our eternal souls to a self proclaimed messenger with all of the above mentioned “qualities” and more, simply because he made claims to prophethood, fourteen centuries ago? How is it any different?
David says
hi Blitz2b
You wrote, ‘Why then would we trust our eternal souls to a self proclaimed messenger’ Correct – – that is the delusion, no person is to be worshiped, only the Creation.
I write to you as a ex-christian. I have no religion but go toward the truth
Islam should say “There is only the Creation, and Mohammed was one of his prophets.” But the messenger is had the message changed….as in other religions, when Word of Mouth caused the need for repetition to establish the beliefs.
In Hitler’s book “Mein Kampf” (My Struggle) he originates the idea of “das Grosse Luge” (The Big Lie):
“But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.”
As a prophet, just like the other 6, Mohammed never taught suicide, murder, or the spreading of Islam through violence or persuasion. Those things, as are currently being expressed through the actions of Islamic terrorists, are contrary to the true teachings.
In addition Billy Meier explains that Mohammed’s teachings were falsified, as happened with the teachings of other prophets.
The one responsible for the main falsification has been named. He was a distant relative of Mohammed, skilled in writing, named Omar.
The war theme expressed in Islam from the start is explained by the fact that Mohammed and his followers were forced to defend themselves from attackers from the start, and so Mohammed taught his followers to act in defense, according to Creational Laws, which require this of any human.
Actually, Islam, as a religion, has nothing to do with terroristic Jihadism, nor does it have anything to do with something in regard to “Holy War” regarding a confrontation with unbelievers through force or efforts of intellectual persuasion with the goal of turning them to Islam.
In the world of Islam, there are differences in “dar ul-Islam”, that is to say, in the essential “realm of Islam”, and in “dar al-harb”, the “realm of the struggle”.
However, that a war should be led and waged until Islam has become a universal religion, was not part of Mohammed’s thinking.
Such an interpretation of Mohammed’s teaching in this regard is one hundred percent wrong, because Mohammed’s truthful teaching understands something else from the term “Djihad”, respectively, jihad.
“Djihad”, in the small form, in regard to the teaching of Mohammed, basically means effort, diligence, eagerness, struggle and striving, however, singly and alone in regard to the personal development of the consciousness and behavior of the human.
Included in that is effort, diligence, striving and struggle in regard to the maintenance of interpersonal relationships and effective humanity.
The teaching of Mohammed goes further in relation to “Djihad”, in the greater form, in that the human – in a peaceful struggle, and therefore through honest effort as well as through diligence, enthusiasm, and striving – should work for peace among all humans and peoples.
Therefore, “Djihad” is in no way connected to war and terror, as is asserted by radicals, fundamentalists and fanatical Islamists, as well as by crazy leaders.
“Djihad” means, in every case, in the small as well as in the big form, that the human grapples – in a controlled, conscious way – with all circumstances of life, with the teaching of the spirit, peace, freedom and harmony, in order to produce controlled thoughts and feelings, out of which controlled, positive and neutral-positive behavior should come about.
Therefore “Djihad”, in every form, means that the human consciously fights his errors and confusion as well as bewilderment and aggression and so forth, and learns – through effort, enthusiasm and diligence – to guard against them, and all inanity and negation as well as evil and the purely negative, should be removed.
Mohammed had, as a matter of fact, in every respect, taught the “teaching of the spirit”, but never war, hate, lovelessness or terror, and so forth.
Unfortunately,Blitz2b, truth was distorted. Millions of wrongful murders, and reinforcing the distorted thinking were trillions of words directed at Prophets – who are all dead, and also uselessly to Saints, Angels, Ancestors.
If we try to imagine what is must be like to be the Creation, – The Primal Well Spring of All Vitality – we can imagine and guess correctly that Infinite Intelligence does not need our words. Thus, logically, prayers are belief reinforcing which puts a kind of Brain clamp upon true thinking, which requires silence since our inner awareness, a part of Creation, will guide if we can be still.
Prayer is talking to God, and Meditation is listening.
If Muslims knew this the Koran would be much thinner as would be the other Holy Books of the other world religions.
Then they would all proudly hold up a sign…My Karma ran over my Dogma!
thanks for writing, this is my first time posting on the web.
Blitz2b says
@David You say “…As a prophet, just like the other 6, Mohammed never taught suicide, murder, or the spreading of Islam through violence or persuasion. …”
You are one truly a deluded individual…
Bukhari (4.52.220) goes as follows:
Allah’s Apostle said, “… I HAVE BEEN MADE VICTORIOUS WITH TERROR (cast in the hearts of the enemy)…”
[8.12] ‘When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND EVERY FINGERTIPS OF THEM..”
Ibn Ishaq reports on p 464:
“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. THEN HE SENT FOR THEM AND STRUCK OFF THEIR HEADS IN THOSE TRENCHES AS THEY AS THEY WERE BROUGHT TO HIM IN BATCHES. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, ‘Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!’ This went on until the apostle made an end of them.”
[48.28] “He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions”
[2.216] “Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.”
You said “….If Muslims knew this the Koran would be much thinner as would be the other Holy Books of the other world religions…”
Correction ! … If all the violence and hatred towards unbelievers, specifically Jews and Christians were taken out of the Muslims equivalent of Mein Kampf” it would surely be a much thinner book indeed…
I am sorry I cannot respond to the rest of your spin doctor rubbish. I wish you’d descend from your flying carpet orbiting a Utopian, marshmallow world where Islam means peace, jihad means personal struggle and Mohammed is a hybrid between Buddha and Christ, chanting OM, and sprinkling fairy dust on us all.
In the real world, Islam is the cause of 270 million deaths worldwide since it’s inception, including genocide of the Armenians, planes flying into buildings, two massive buildings crashing to the ground, the displacement of millions of people in the middle east, specifically 25,000 jihad attacks in this century alone. ongoing injustices to religious minorities and Muslim women, countless destruction or take over of churches and temples, and the demolition of sacred statues, works of art and other places of worship. This is Islam, true to every last word of the Koran, Hadiths and Sirat-ur-rasulallah.
Try this experiment…. take some dog turd and give a thick coating of sugar and sprinkle it with flavored embellishment of your choice. Now consume it. In reality this is what you are doing with Islam. This ideology is ROTTEN to the core, it’s own scripture and sources tell us so, yet we have useful idiots (pardon the expression) like you, with your rose colored glasses, spewing psychedelic sufi / newage mumbo jumbo to make this religion look. good.
A word of advice…. stop the drug abuse…. it messes with the mind, which obviously it’s done to yours.
Ciao,
Davegreybeard says
@David
“Mohammed had, as a matter of fact, in every respect, taught the “teaching of the spirit”, but never war, hate, lovelessness or terror, and so forth.”
And Muhammad said “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter who has defamed the Prophet of Islam?” And Maslama went forth and murdered her that very night, plunging a sword into her chest as her newborn suckled at her breast. (Bukhari Hadith)
You are a taqiyya spewing Muslim, David, be gone! – you will find none here who will be deceived by your lies.
ronyvo says
Thank you Pamela. You are fighting for me, my children and grandchildren. As a Copt from the ME, I know very well the vicious war you are facing. I pray for you and Robert.
However, I would like to mention something. You call those criminals jihadis. This is an encouragement to those Muslims who are following the satanic Koran. And, it is confusing for the naïve and ignorant Americans. They are CRIMINALS. Isn’t that we call the murderers?!
And, this is not a war against freedom of speech, it is a war against humanity.
What makes your fight harder is the fact that we have a criminal (Muslim) in the WH who support those criminals world wide. BUT WE HAVE ON OUR SIDE THE MOST PWERFUL OF ALL JESUS THE CHRIST.
Clifford Ross says
We should have ‘Art Shows’ every day in every town in The USA , and DARE those who disagree with FREEDOM to stand up . Our freedoms trump their dislike with an art display, no matter the content.
Michael Horn says
So far there’s no evidence that ANYONE on this blog is invovled with military strategy and tactics, just lots of anonymous, foul mouthed blowhards who want to feel tough. Did the military train you to call people names and boast about your imagined prowess as an effective tactic? I don’t think so. Hotheads don’t make for good officers either.
Many here freely speak violently to their…fellow citizens who disagree with them. There’s little doubt that, given the opportunity, they’d attack or shoot them too. So there’s not so much difference between the enemy and those who seek to suppress the rights and expression of those here who disagree with them.
They also are disrespectful of the religious beliefs of 2 billion people, the majority of whom are not involved in the fundamentalist terror. In fact, millions of Muslims, or more, have lived their entire lives, minding their own business, contributing to their communities, raising their families, etc., without a drop of such negative behavior. But your stupid cartoon shows – and really all the other demonizing of every Muslim in the world – simply recruits more terrorists. It’s used to show how violent and dangerous Americans are, etc.
They DON’T “hate us for our freedoms”. They hate us for trampling on theirs.
But you have decided to insult all Muslims because they’re all obviously inferior to you geniuses and, most likely, your equally ridiculous religious beliefs.
It doesn’t matter to you that innocent human beings are worthy of respect and being treated as you would like to be treated yourselves. Kinda like the..Golden Rule; ever hear of it? It’s actualy an expression of…cause and effect.
No, you’re gonna show them a thing or too, knowing and disregarding the fact that the insane ones will thank you for announcing your presence by trying to kill you and as many OTHER people as may be around.
The threat from terrorists is real. It’s certainly here, in this country. And so is the threat from the ignorant and self-righteous, who don’t even consider how reckless, irresponsible and stupid it is to be creating and announcing public displays of these kinds of defamatory cartoon shows, etc. Why? Because no thought is given to any and all of the innocent people who may get caught in the crossfire, injured or killed if they even work, live or walk by such an event.
But that doesn’t matter to these unthinking people. They’re gonna show those terrorists a thing or two! They just haven’t noticed that the enemy isn’t announcing where its “protests” are going to be, its attacks, its already very present…sleeper cells.
Maybe watching all those Rambo movies and palying video games hasn’t exactly prepared you for what this is all about. Mr. Meier started warning about this in 1958, 1981, 1987, 1995, etc. And he warned about what was coming to OUR country because of our insane, aggressive military policies worldwide.
Daniel Triplett says
I’m a USAF Officer, pilot, and a six year war vet of Afghanistan/Iraq.
I find so much wrong with your narrative, I don’t know quite where to begin, nor do I have the time.
Have you ever read the Quran? You appear not to have. I don’t know how anyone could read it and not come away with the conclusion that Islam is a criminal enterprise and political ideology dressed up as a religion. It’s nothing for any of us to respect. Islam must be extinguished from the Earth. It’s incompatible with a Free World, and it’s a mortal threat to our children and grandchildren’s survival.
They don’t hate us because we’re “trampling on their freedoms.” They hate us because we aren’t Muslims practicing Sharia. They’ve had grievances against people unlike them long before America ever existed. And it was the Muslims who spread out among the World trampling other people’s freedoms, not the other way around. Any trampling that’s done upon them now is a defensive operation from the people they trampled first.
I don’t know how much time you’ve spent in the ME, but I spent six years over there, getting shot at regularly by Muslims. One out of seven US KIAs in Afghanistan are Green on Blue: US trained Afghan troops turning their guns on us. None can be trusted.
Until you’ve spent some time in the ME, or even in your local mosque, you really don’t know what true Muslims are like. Just because the guy serving you a kebab in the local deli happens to be cordial, doesn’t mean the majority of the Muslims are peaceful. The majority of Muslims live in God forsaken shitholes that you wouldn’t dare set foot in without military escort. Those people are not peaceful. They are not your friends.
Jihad is compulsory for all Muslims. They either swing the sword, or support those swinging the sword.
If the majority are peaceful, as you say, how are 100s of thousands being recruited by ISIS. Why don’t they speak out against the ISIS types? Well why would they? ISIS are model, role model Muslims, just doing what their book tells them to do, which is exactly what their prophet modeled for them. If Muhammad was alive today, he’d be a member of ISIS.
You’re either in the Ummah or you’re not. Muslims won’t criticize their brothers.
Muslims consider the Quran to be the literal word of their deity. No one gets to debate Allah. Furthermore, Muhammad, the liar, murderer, misogynist, pedophile, and rapist, “the perfect man” must be emulated by all Muslims. This is why Islam will never be reformed; not in 10 years or 10,000 years. To reform Islam would deny the initial “perfection” of the Quran.
This story is not going to end well if we do nothing. There is only one solution to the crisis: Worldwide criminalization of Islam. And we’ll need a military solution to do it. Within our own borders, all that’s necessary is a reclassification of Islam from “the religion of peace” into the criminal enterprise it is. Islam is Sedition and Conspiracy to Murder. This should be a capital offense. This is something we can force upon the Muslim World using Incremental Random Strategic Area Bombing.
The first step is changing people’s minds here in America about what Islam really is, not a religion, but a crime. That’s not going to happen with the Muslim in the Oval Office.
Michael Horn says
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for sharing your opinion and real name. A few responses of course will follow.
No, I haven’t read the Koran in its entirety, only various passages, mainly those selected to make the anti-Muslim points. BTW, have you ever read the…Old Testament. That’s the “Holy Book” in with the maniacal, genocidal terrorist, otherwse known as “God” commanded – and participated in – the deaths of many thousands of people, mostly innocent ones whose lands then were stolen by the Israelites/Hebrews. In additon to that, did you know that there are Jewish texts in which a very derogatory opinion of people of other beliefs is given, with unpleasant recommendations as to how they should be treated?
Of course even very religious Jews don’t go around behaving towards “gentiles” in those ways and of course they aren’t stoning people to death for it (As they DID long ago), etc. You’re possibly aware of little things like the Crusades, Inquisition, etc., etc., in which millions of innocent people were likewise slaughtered by Christian followers of their version of the “God of love and mercy”. Point being – and as in obvious evidence to any thinking person – the majority of the two BILLION Muslims also don’t go around terrorizing and killing people who are non-believers.
You have…reasoned your way through that, yes?
As for your sensitive little assessment that “Islam must be extinguished from the Earth.” wuld you mind terribly if we included the followers of…Judaism and Christianity too, both of which are soaked in the blood of innocents?
Military man or not, you make the same painfully obvious, violence encouraging mistakes that the others on this forum do: You overlook hte fact that the ones who hate us the most are the radical, fundamentalist Islamists. Speaking from personal experience, in the US not the ME, the Muslims I’ve met are basically like everyone else, they want to live peaceful lives.
As for this nonsense: “Any trampling that’s done upon them now is a defensive operation from the people they trampled first.”, please tell us about all that trampling here that they did “first”. Take your time.
Of course you speak from personal expeirnece in the ME, where supposedly “America’s interests” were threatened by various factions, mainly Muslim. Would you like to tell us WHY you were in Afghanistan, perhaps instead of here at home protecting our borders against illegal immigration? And why were you in…Iraq, where the “weapons of mass destruction” ruse allowed us to conduct that immoral war against a people who, naturally, hadn’t attacked us, a war that DESTABILIZED the region and contributed tto the growing strength of Islamic terrorism?
We’ve been interferring in the ME (and most of the rest of the world) long before any terrorism struck here. Since you don’t have any issue I’m sure with this pseudo-“divine right” that America claims for itself, what would you think if the…Russians and Chinese felt the same way? You know, if they felt that their “national interests” were at risk HERE…and invaded, bombed, terrorized our country as freely and often as we’ve done to many others? (Since 1947, the US has launhed over 250 UNPROVOKED ACTS OF AGGRESSION against other countries, documented.)
“This is something we can force upon the Muslim World using Incremental Random Strategic Area Bombing.” These extreme, basically genocidal views of yours about EVERYONE who’s a Muslim, which goes against not only reason but the personal experiences of many people, is the kind of foolhardy, quick to shoot policies that don’t exactly endear people to America…and I mean non-Muslim peoples and nations too. You go into a ghetto full of gang-bangers and so you generalize that all the world, or all the people of a certain ethnic and/or religious group, are also gang-bangers. That’s called…prejudice.
Make no mistake about it, you’re basically endorsing killing innocent men, women…and children too. Perhaps you’ve already had such experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t know but you present yourself as a nice, polished, super-righteous equivalent of anyone who proposes – or commits – mass murder. Naturally, you justify it with super-braod generalities.
You, like the others here, confuse a number of things. You too think you know what’s in the mind and heart of everyone who has a certain religion…and you recommend nothing short of exterminating them for it. Kinda like the…Nazis did, remember them? Your reasoning is no different and it obviously wouldn’t take much at all for you to be “just following orders” and gladly carry out your version of this “final solution”.
Obviously any reasoning here isn’t welcome and probably also because the vast majority of people here are…reactive, rather than thinkers. It also means that you’re EASILY manipulated, as has historically been the case when people get whipped up into a frenzy against an entire ethnic, racial or religious group, etc.
The results of that, historically, aren’t at all good. We’re seeing it yet again. It’s so much easier to be some kind of flag waver, holy book thumper, rather than critical thinker.
So, once again:. There indeed are radical Islamic terrorists, a small majority of Muslims. Insulting the most sacred of Muslim beliefs only pushes more of the reasonable people into a place where they’re more likely to be recruited, pressured to become terrorists by those who will play on how disrespectful, defamatory, inflammatory, etc., these ignorant “cartoon shows”, etc. are.
Of course if you’re willing to also genocide the Jews and Christians, with their histories of mass murder and mayhem, etc., then at least you’d be morally consistent. How’s about it, do they get bombed into oblivion too?
Daniel Triplett says
You know, if I thought I could influence your mind, I might try. But based on the way you’ve been speaking with everyone else on this thread, I know I’d be completely wasting my time. Your entire response was pure crap.
I never said anything about “genocide.” Those are your words, not mine. You’re obviously no military officer, yet seem to think your an expert on military matters and wartime strategy. You’ve put down every other member on this thread for having no military experience, so now you’re speaking with a six year war vet, and you patronize me too.
You’re also apparently an atheist. So you seem to be a narcissist who knows everything about the universe, with nothing else to learn. Must be nice to be such an all-knowing genius. I suppose humans in 10,000 years will know no more than you either, because you’ve got everything all figured out. Learn some humility man.
War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. We could never have won WWII with today’s leadership and a public attitude like yours.
Do you have any idea how many civilian men, women, children, and elderly we targeted in the war? Just look at Battle Damage Assessment photos of every German and Japanese city to see how our grandfathers felt about avoiding collateral damage and death to enemy civilians. We would have kept going and killed every last one of them until they surrendered. That’s how wars are won. Would you call that genocide? Were they monsters? Do you think you’re smarter than they were? Thank God men like you weren’t in charge back then.
The fact is, you sit upon your arrogant ivory tower of safety, passing judgment on the military officers who have faced the enemy up close and personal, and know exactly what we’re up against. You have no idea how dangerous and threatening these animals are.
And there was nothing immoral about the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. How many classified Intel briefs have you attended? I’ve been to over 1500. There were WMDs. Most were hidden, moved, or buried, and we did find some later.
The bottom line though, is Saddam Hussein WAS the Weapon of Mass Destruction. He fired upon US warplanes patrolling the southern and northern no-fly zones 800 times per year, in blatant violation of the Cease Fire agreement. Only because of our skill and defensive measures did he not take any of us down. What were we supposed to do about that? Any ONE of the 800 incidents per year was justification to do what Bust 43 did. The mistake Bush 43 did was making too big a deal about the WMDs, but there were a 1000 legitimate reasons to go back and do what we did.
You don’t know jack squat about any of that stuff, and I could go on and on. But it won’t matter. You’re a liberal atheist know-it-all who can’t be persuaded by reason.
You’re even trying to place a moral equivalency between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. I notice you have to go back 1000 years to find any “atrocities” by Christians, which I don’t consider atrocities at all. Muslims invaded their lands. The Christians had every right to expel them. And I know you’ve never worn your country’s uniform, but war is brutal and cruel, necessarily. This is longstanding US Policy we’ve even used on our own people. Read about how Sherman waged his campaigns to find out.
Wars are impossible to win the way Obama fights them.
I see you buy into the bullshit mantra from your main stream media shows that Radical Islam is a “tiny minority of extremists who’ve hijacked an otherwise great and noble religion.” You are so far in the dark on that, it’s not even funny. People like you are part of the problem. You have a whole lot to learn about Islam Friend.
And yes, I have read the OT cover to cover while in Catholic High School. Christians interpret Scripture through Christ, the Prince of Peace. And I certainly take great offense with your calling my God a “maniacal, genocidal terrorist.” But I’m also not going to hunt you down and kill you or the ones you love. And I’ll forget you even said that three minutes from now. Are you beginning to see the difference between Christians and Muslims yet?
Why did we invade Afghanistan? Perhaps you’ve forgotten about 9/11.
The Russia, China analogy is BS. We’ve never been aggressive toward them, so they’ve had no reason to attack us.
So I’m making the same obvious mistake that others are making? That it’s only a tiny minority of “extremists” who want to do us harm? And the Muslims you’ve met in the US are just like everyone else and want to live peaceful lives?
You really have drunk the Kool-Aid. Are the guys who attacked Garland peaceful? How about the Muslim who sliced off the woman’s head in Oklahoma City? Or the 19 Muslims who turned hijacked airplanes into missiles? Or the shoe bomber? Or the underwear bomber? Or the Times Square bomber? Or the Tsarnev Brothers? And on and on and on. I sure didn’t see any protests in the streets from any of the other 3,000,000 “peaceful” Muslims in the US. Did you?
Besides, the 3 Million American Muslims are a very small minority of the 1.6 Billion Muslims in the World. If you want to see what the majority of Muslims are like, go to Sudan, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Islamic State, Iran, Pakistan, etc…If you dare. With the possible exception of Dubai and Turkey, I wouldn’t set foot in any Muslim sovereignty without military escort and fully armed. I’ve been to almost all of the Muslim countries while in the USAF and airlines. You have no idea what real Muslims are like. They’d slice your throat and rape your wife and daughter in a heartbeat.
They all worship the same Quran. There is no peaceful version of it.
You’ve now criticized a war vet and 20 year military officer. So please tell us what your expert plan is on how to defeat the existential Islamic threat confronting us. We’d all like to know, because apparently all of us know-nothings have any idea what to do.
You have much to learn about the existential Islamic threat. Try tuning in instead of broadcasting all the time.
MIchael Horn says
Sure, I’ll give you some ideas from my perspective but a few comments first.
All of the justifications you, and others present for all the military mayhem conducted by this country for many years is the cause of what’s coming…BACK on us.You seem to…BELIEVE, the operative word for much of what you say, that the very real existence of, and ongoing threat from, Islamic terror came out of a vacuum. It didn’t. The law of cause and effect, scoffed at by the ignorant, nonetheless operates not only unfailingly but with absolutely no regard whatsoever for which stupid country, under which flag, policy, etc., issued the act of aggression. Of course it operates in regards to all actions by all and every individual, as well as countries, positive and negative, 24/7. It’s a LAW, a law of physcis and pertains to EVERYTHING that happens in this world and universe.
Unfortunately for the lopsided arguments in favor of whatever aggression is deemed to be…profitable to various vested interests, there are plenty of other military personnel who disagree with your rosy attempt to justify the US involvement in the ME…which started LONG before 9/11. And yes, I know and have friends among the military who hold opposing opinions to yours.
You’re entitled to your religious beliefs but…don’t be so sensitive. While you said, “And I certainly take great offense with your calling my God a “maniacal, genocidal terrorist.” But I’m also not going to hunt you down and kill you or the ones you love.”, which is very generous of you I’m sure, isn’t it just plain…funny how you can “take offense” at my expression of my – far more knowledgeable – opinion about your mythical God but have ZERO sensitivity to what beleivers in another faith may feel when people go to the purposeful trouble to – publicly – target and defame what’s sacred to them? Oh, I forgot, they’re ALL inferior worthless creatures, certainly not of the same value as “Christians”.
Let’s look at it this religious stuff for just a second. EVERY religion rests on the patently inadmissible, childish premise that “What’s in this book is true…BECAUSE this book says it’s true.” Try taking that into a court of law…or a kindergarten. “YOUR God”, as you put it, didn’t really exist until some prmitive guys in the dessert, a few thousand year ago, basically invented him…as well as most of everything in the bibles. Yes, there are some historical reference for places, etc., but any actual events were doubtlessly different than the tales handed down…edited, falsified, rewritten as they were. And yes, the god of the OT was indeed a genocidal terrorist, like it or not. It’s all right there in that “good book”.
Now like many religious people, I’m sure you’ll say you KNOW “your” religion is not only real but most likely the only true one…despite the fact that you’re unaware that the god of the OT is actually…a different one than the god of the NT. (The god of the OT was into having a “chosen people”, having them slaying others, having them steal, rape, burn things down, etc. The god of the NT supposedly sends his “only begotten son” to “die for your sins” even though most of humanity hadn’t been born yet, let alone sinned, and any “omnipotent being” would’ve foreseen that the “sinning” would go on long, long past his kid getting nailed up, tortured, etc.)
Likewise, since you’re a Christian, you’re also unaware that there’s ZERO historical record of ANYONE named “Jesus Christ” who lived at that time and place. Considering that there were about…60 historians living in the area then, isn’t it a bit strange that not a one of them wrote ANYTHING about a man who supposedly could walk on water, heal the dead, etc.?
BUT there was a man who lived at that time, who indeed was crucified (survived it, traveled with his mother and disciples through different countries to India, where he died at 110 years of age, where a tomb also exists) and his name was…Jmmanuel, alternately spelled as Emmanuel or Immanuel. See Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23, for the two remaining mentions of him, before the blessed “Church fathers”, i.e. insane perverts who to this day have institutionalized raping children, etc., expunged every trace of…the truth.
Oh yeah, there also were…17 female disciples, which mysteriously don’t appear in your so-called “holy book”. Now that may not be your brand of Christianity but if you’re a Christian you’re a believer in the myths and fairy tales…but have no objective evidence that they’re true. And “true beleivers” can easily be made to do a lot of nasty stuff…like the Islamic terrorists certainly exemplify.Yes, we all know about stuff like, “I know Jesus personally, etc., etc.” Hopefully you won’t hit me up with that stuff, it would simply mean that you’re delusional.
Now, you’re all puffed up with religious pride and the fact is you’re simply a…believer. No different than a believer in any other “one true religion”. So it’s very generous of you that you won’t try to kill me, as is part of almost all long standing religious traditions (except Buddhists, Taoists, etc.). It IS that tradition, those…beliefs that allow you however to decide that it’s just fine and dandy to want to wipe every Muslim off the face of the Earth, which you’ve made pretty clear.
So here you are, a believer in a fairy tale, who feels superior to believers in other fairy tales. History has shown that many true beleivers don’t harm others and…many do, justified of course by their beliefs.
You also spoke about Muslim invaders long ago. You are aware that the Catholic church was spreading, invading, persecuting etc. So the ages old insanity of one religion fighting with another has more than one side to the story, pointless as all of that human suffering was.
Now as for “what to do”. Long standing problems don’t have quick fixes. They require very different THINKING than that which created them. But let’s be clear, radical fundamentalist Islamic terror is a huge and ugly problem. There’s no apology for it, depsite the fact that we can probably trace back a good deal of it to US interefernece in the ME, US support for creating/supporting the Taliban, etc. Certainly you can find enough compelling information to take off any blinders about that. After all, just…WHY would a bunch of guys in a cave over there, or roaming around the desserts, decide out of nowhere to attack the US? If you can’t perceive and acknowledge our own complicity, or own CAUSAL role in creating the problem that’s now come BACK to our shores, then all the religious and patriotic posturing won’t help.
Ok, the terrorism is a real problem, one that won’t go away by praying to an imginary God who – if he really existed – wouldn’t NEED to be prayed to because he was all knowing and wouldn’t be “testing the faithful” by allowing all this. In fact, as I mentioned before, on the god score card, the god of the terrorists is winning.
On the macro scale, we’ve made it clear, since November of last year, that a true international fighting force must be put together to put down the strongest element, the IS. So maybe you get that I’m no lefty, nor a righty, I’m someone who thinks and, along with others like me, don’t want to see this world go up in flames and back to the Dark Ages. That’s the macro approach, a huge fighting force that targets only the IS and elimnates the threat.
But the real answer has come about through a change in…thinking. We really do have to understand just how our thoughts and actions, on a moment by moment basis, either help us or harm us. If there was any REAL evidence that defaming people, deliberately insulting their deepest beliefs actually resolved the problem, led to…peace (not an awful thing in my book) then we wouldn’t be in the state we’re in.
But that takes REAL self-discipline, self-HONESTY, non-reactivity, etc. And it’s not an either or proposition. Both approaches have to be undertaken. I can certainly guarantee that assaulting people’s beliefs with cartoon shows, etc., will only inflame already bad situations. It’s not appeasement, it’s not cowardice, etc., to decide to NOT do those things but INSTEAD take all of our energies and resources to gaining self-control, clear-headedness and become more objective about what’s real…and not get all hung up on the unreal.
What’s real is that there’s a growing number of people determined to harm us, and others in the world, solely because they’ve become insane, unreasonable and thereby justify their violence. However, while we’re determining what our external targets are, we also know that quite often the greatest threats come from within us, from our fears, confusion, impatience, etc., all things that certainly wouldn’t serve you as a pilot, for whom precision in a number of areas is critical to your job performance and your survival.
Naturally, there are more specifics to all of this. But before going further I’ll leave you with it. If the only reactions are similar to the attacks and assumptions that others have been making here, then it’s pointless to go on. I can say however, that I do my best to practice self-responsible thinking in my life, in every area. Success varies but there’s a difference between making mistakes that are only personal learning experiences that I have the luxury of improving upon, and making mistakes of the sort that only contribute to more violence, discord, danger to me and my countrymen. While I’m just one person I do the best I can and I unite whenever possible with others of like mind.
I also realize that no matter the ease with which online anger and hostility may be expressed, there’s a difference between that and real dangers because…we’re all in this together.
Daniel Triplett says
You have a sad soul. I’ll pray for you.
I just don’t have time for this anymore. Too many more productive things I must do.
You continue to disgrace yourself with insults to our one true God. We’ll all find out the truth one day, won’t we. I’d rather spend my life as a Christian, then die and live in His Eternal Kindgom, than spend my life disparaging our Lord, then die to find out I was wrong, and face the Eternal consequences. The choice is yours.
I suppose you think all those people who’ve died and come back to report the similarities of their Near Death Experiences are all crazy too, right?
There’s just too much to refute with you, which is everything.
I will say that of the thousands of military officers I’ve known personally in my life, I’ve only met one who feels like you do.
And although you love to lie by placing the “genocide” word in my mouth, that just isn’t true. I’ve only ever advocated extinguishing the Islamic ideology. I have no intention of killing all Muslims.
In much the same way the Germans weren’t so much the problem, as it was Nazism. The moment the Germans surrendered their evil Nazi ideology, we immediately stopped killing them. The World could then live in peace with the Germans. Sadly, we had to kill a lot of German men, women, and children to get to that point. Same with Japan. Our grandfathers took no joy in killing other human beings, nor do I. But war is brutal by necessity, and if we want to win, we must kill. There’s just no other way around it. War happens when diplomacy fails.
For your sake, I hope you find Jesus Christ, and ask Him to come into your heart to be your Lord and Savior. Perhaps the 2.2 Billion Christians on Earth, and the billions before them are on to something. Eternity is a long time to spend in regret as a fool.
I’ll leave you with this recent Gallup poll to show you how much trust your fellow Americans have for you Atheists:
The question was, “Would you never vote for a President who was…?”
Black 4%
Woman 5
Catholic 5
Hispanic 7
Jewish 6
Mormon 18
Gay/Lesbian 30
Muslim 40
Atheist 43
So, Atheists rank at the very bottom of the list for trustworthiness amongst Americans. Americans would prefer even to have a Muslim as President rather than an Atheist.
So if you think you’re mainstream, and the rest of us are naïve fools, think again.
Out.
Michael Horn says
Daniel,
Don’t worry about me, my supposed soul, this life or an afterlife.
If you are content with your beliefs, you’re entitled to them. As are believers in any and all other religions. Just like religions, NDEs are…subjective experiences and aren’t proof of…anything.
Since you mention it, if you think the 2.2. billion Christians on Earth (and all the billions of others from other religions, etc.) “are on to something” certainly their…TRILLIONS of failed, repetitive prayers are better evidence that they’re not. Still, if that’s what you like, enjoy yourself.
Of course from a rational, logical perspective religion – ALL RELIGIONS – are the obvious problem, as they set people against each other, endorse and promote all the killing that you’re quite comfortable with and are the actual cause of so much of this pain and suffering. Christians killed Christians in Ireland, Jews kill Muslims in Palestine, Muslims kill Jews, Muslims kill Muslims, etc. It’s the same old stupid thing because MANMADE religions pit everybody against each other.
But Daniel, do you also feel “sad” for…Pamela Geller, who’s Jewish and isn’t likely to buy into your religion?
Gosh, here we are in a muddled mess because people react, instead of think and reason, because they demonize others who believe differently than they do.
Killers and terrorists exist in ALL these religions, as do peaceful people.
Daniel was unable to answer my logic and reasoning, so instead he posts a bunch of religious propaganda. Okay, it’s still better than calling for wiping out all the people who beleive in Islam…or Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
Perhaps people will now give serious consideration as to HOW to make their cities, communities and homes safer, and drop all the impotent, fearful hysteria, etc.
Angemon says
Michael Horn posted:
“Of course from a rational, logical perspective religion – ALL RELIGIONS – are the obvious problem, as they set people against each other, endorse and promote all the killing that you’re quite comfortable with and are the actual cause of so much of this pain and suffering.”
And, of course, Michael “forgets” to quote texts from Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Sikh, etc, that are equivelant to, for example, quran 9:5 – “kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush” – a command to be obeyed until the end of days.
“Christians killed Christians in Ireland, Jews kill Muslims in Palestine, Muslims kill Jews, Muslims kill Muslims, etc.”
Once again. Michael’s “logic” goes backwards – he tries to define religions by what their adherents do rather than by what their texts say. The thing with any given religion (or ideology in general) is that different people adhere to it at different levels. Some people take whatever their religion says very seriously, others don’t particularly care.
“Killers and terrorists exist in ALL these religions, as do peaceful people.”
But only one religion orders its adherents to kill people for following other religions. Only one religion has one book claiming to be the eternal word of god, calling other religions by name and lying about what other religions teach. Trying to pretend that all religions are the same is a staple of islamic supremacists bent on obfuscate the islamic inspiration of jihadis.
“Daniel was unable to answer my logic and reasoning, so instead he posts a bunch of religious propaganda.”
That’s not how things went. Daniel wiped the floor with you.
Michael Horn says
BTW, my comments weren’t necessarily directed at you; you use your real name and don’t appear to be among those who use all the threats, etc.
epistemology says
Righto, keep on going
Daniel Triplett says
The pathetic response of the Left and Islamic sympathizers just shows how much work we have ahead of us to convince and bring together Americans to recognize the World War we’re in right now. Just because our CINC has our American military power on a short leash doesn’t mean the War is here.
Iran has promised to nuke us, and soon. I, for one, have no doubt they are deadly serious about this threat. Must we wait until Manhattan gets glassed before Americans come together to destroy Islam?
Islam must be extinguished. Let’s all face the facts. Iran likely has already one nuke bomb. They’re just waiting until they stockpile dozens of them and perfect their ICBM technology before unleashing Armageddon. But it’s coming, have no doubt. They promise it’s coming.
Our CINCs denial of any Islamic existential problem is no cause to deny the existence of the World War Muslims v non-Muslims. He a Muslim traitor, and must be removed from office now. We can’t wait until 2017 for the slight chance of inaugurating a Crusader. I’m not suggesting something illegal here, but I’d thing with all the voting and IRS fraud, there’s plenty of justification for a revote. If that doesn’t work, perhaps the Joint Chiefs could explain the gravity of the problem to Congress, and get them to remove Obama and his administration due the National Emergency we’re in.
Impeachment is not a good plan, because that would leave Crazy Uncle Joe in charge. He’s not Muslim, because crazy and stupid, and has a total condescending disregard for any advice from the military. Because Joe and B Hussein are military experts in their own mind, even though neither have worn their country’s uniform.
We’d be much better with the #3, Boehner in charge right now, until we can elect Ted Cruz in November 2016.
We’ve all spent plenty of time discussing how evil and threatening Islam is. It’s high time for us to out loud discuss solutions to mortal threat confronting us. If you can’t do it for yourself, do it for your children. We can’t hand them this mess. This is our fight, and our responsibility.
Mike Holt, CEO RestoreAustralia says
Perhaps it’s time to stop using the same language our enemies do. RestoreAustralia patriots don’t call the islamapologists ‘left’ any more. There are so many people on the left side of politics that we feel it is unfair to lump them all into the same basket. Many do not love islam any more than we do. Instead, why not call them Socialists? Or islamapologists? Or mozlem lovers? (this is why we name them Mozlems:
http://hnn.us/article/524)
Instead of calling people names, let’s work to UNITE all patriots, no matter what our political views may be. That’s what we have started doing in Australia.
Daniel Triplett says
I’m American, and can’t speak for Australian culture or politics. Neither are you American, so let me give you some insights.
In America, most on the left are vehemently anti-war, Muslim sympathizers. My only brother is one of them. While I was on the other side of the planet fighting a war against Muslims for six years, wearing my country’s flag on my shoulder, my brother was dancing around in the National Mall protesting the War, holding signs, giving aid and encouragement to the same enemy that was shooting at me and 500,000 other brothers.
My brother also volunteered at the John Kerry campaign headquarters. A traitor who’s universally reviled by all veterans. A man who continues to sell out his country with this dangerous “deal” with Iran.
Most Leftists are like that. They’re arrogant fools who think they’re smarter than the rest of us. My brother, and every other Democrat I’ve met have their noses jammed so far up Obama’s ass, they have not one critical thing to say about him at all. He’d vote for him a third time if he could. He’s already on the elect Hillary campaign.
I have no respect for anyone on the Left. I don’t know what they’re like where you live, but that’s what they’re like in America.
Who’s calling people names? Not I. I’m speaking reality, and I think you’re plan to UNITE all patriots is a bit idealistic for America. Did you know 45% of Democrats, statistically, are ashamed to be American? Does that sound like a patriot to you? People who give aid and encouragement to the enemy while we have troops on the ground or pilot’s in the air in a combat zone?
You and I are I two different worlds. If what I’ve described about the American Left above is not what you’re experiencing in Australia, consider yourself lucky.
Angemon says
Daniel Triplett posted:
“My only brother is one of them. While I was on the other side of the planet fighting a war against Muslims for six years, wearing my country’s flag on my shoulder, my brother was dancing around in the National Mall protesting the War, holding signs, giving aid and encouragement to the same enemy that was shooting at me and 500,000 other brothers.”
I’m sorry to hear that, Daniel. I hope your brother doesn’t let his views affect your relationship and that he’ll eventually shift towards a more unbiased, fact-driven, view of the world.
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
I appreciate the warm thoughts.
Regrettably, Jason created an enormous wedge between us with his actions. And it wasn’t just that, but a few other significant areas of betrayal behind my back that have significantly damaged my life.
I’m a strong Christian, and can forgive people who are sincerely sorry. The problem with Jason though, is every time these subjects come up, he doubles down on his position, without any accountability, which puts us into a screaming match. He even attacks me physically about half the time I see him. He’s a real prince.
I don’t know what kind of a difference Jason thinks he personally made toward American foreign policy with his wartime war protesting, but he did manage to create a gigantic rift with his only brother. We seldom speak anymore. It’s heartbreaking, really.
But thanks for your kind thoughts Angemon. I always enjoy reading your insightful posts.
Stay strong.
Angemon says
That’s disheartening to hear, Daniel – that your brother is so far gone as to hate and attack his own flesh and blood for political reasons. Still, there’s always the hope he’ll come to his senses- if not by changing his perception of the world then at least to learn to accept you despite your differences.
You stay strong too.
Daniel Triplett says
Correction:
“Just because our CINC has our American military power on a short leash doesn’t mean the War is ‘not’ here.”
Mike Holt, CEO RestoreAustralia says
You are so right Pamela. We are at war. Islam declared war on the entire world 1,400 years ago and it’s never stopped. It has waned sometimes as opposition grew towards islam, but they continued plotting.
Thank you for standing up for freedom. Australia is behind you 100%. We will NEVER submit to islam….we will NEVER surrender our freedoms. Thankfully, more Australians are waking up to the grave danger among us every day. Proud Infidels are uniting and we are confronting islam everywhere. Stay strong America.
This article explores our options for ridding the world of islam. This is the main goal we should be striving for. There is no place on this planet for islam. It is a death cult.
http://islam4infidels.com/can-we-rid-the-world-of-islam/
underbed cat says
Pamela, Robert and JW readers, if you have been feeling the despair about the treatment of Pamela and Robert in the press…I have just read the National Review 5/7/2015..The Corner by David French…..about Pamela Geller….awesome. It was written in response to a NYT critical article…in which Mr. French states “I am more hateful than Pamela”..
John Billings says
This entire discussion is pointless. The only real issue is, Do we have the right to criticize others’ religion (or politics, sexual orientation, etc.) *without threatening any physical harm*? If we have that right, then the Mohammed cartoon contest was protected free speech. If we do not have that right, we may as well live under Sharia Law.
Michael Horn says
John,
You’re absolutely correct. We have the right in this country to say whatever we wish (so far). Let’s also consider that with rights come responsibilities. There are consequences to all actions.
Years ago some people did an art exhibit, as I recall, with Jesus in urine. It was a pointless, stupid thing that DIDN’T result in greater understanding , progress, peace, harmony, etc. It was pointless except for probably, momentarily making the artist feel important, significant ( and maybe a bit wealthier). But it was plain stupid.
When cartoons of mohammed are on display it in NO way actually fights terrorism, it contributes to it. It wasn’t a matter of “threatening physical harm”, it was a matter of people – who should’ve known better – ignoring the fact that the REACTION to it would ultimately be violent, increase violence.
It isn’t cowardice to not do stupid, pointless, ineffective things. It’s a bit of wisdom to choose one’s battles – and tactics – wisely. Grandstanding and thinking that people who don’t value human life are going to be in any way intimidated, prevented from their actions in these ways is very naive…and arrogant.
Let’s exercise our rights in much more positively effective ways.
John Billings says
Michael,
If that were true, then we should strive never to offend anyone by our free speech. That would prohibit preachers from calling people to repentance, artists from producing controversial work, and writers from saying anything that might disturb anyone. The whole point of freedom of speech and of the press, Michael, is that it protects offensiveness. Without the possibility of offense, there is no need for the First Amendment.
Michael Horn says
John,
Actually I think you can see from…my own contributions here that isn’t the case. Perhaps I can explain it better. I’m not deliberately trying to offend anyone, humiliate , defame or demean them or their beliefs. But as I said, I DON’T respect anyone’s beliefs and I hope they feel the same way about mine. And certainly my point of view, my…free speech ticks off a lot of people, results in their calling me names, seeing me as somehow supporting the very thing that I’ve participated in warnign about, in…petitioning against.
An example. Let’s say I have a friend who informs me that they’re a devout (fill in the blank) and they want me to “respect their beliefs”. From my perspective, all beliefs are suspect at best and ridiculous, delusional and idiotic at worst. After all, they’re…beliefs, not proven facts.
Now, while I’m struggling to figure out how to deal with this my friend announces to me that they’ve gone and converted to (fill in the new blank). Of course they want me to, yup, “respect their beliefs”. So while I’ve been trying to figure out how to deal with their old beliefs, now I’ve got some new ones to “respect”. All that “one and only God, religion and truth” was just replaced by the new one. Good luck.
Certainly we’re…free to say whatever we want. We can even casually, without even being asked, tell people that we think they’re they’re fat, ugly, hopeless losers, etc. Great. What have we really accomplished?
As someone who doesn’t have any religious beliefs, nor any respect for what those beleifs are, I still prefer to deal with people more based on who they are, how they act, their real expressed…values, etc. Most of the people that will be “offended” by these defamatory cartoons are simply the people of that faith, the so-called ordinary people, the “faithful”, etc.
But the people who will use the opportunity to also further recruit people now that feel disrespected, disaffected, etc., are the same ones, the fanatics, who will…use the opportunity to do what now comes naturally to them, launch more violence. It’s kind of like when you know someone’s a carrier of a disease do you want to try to isolate, contain and “treat” the disease, or “flush them out” into masses of other people to not only infect them but quite possibly kill or injure large numbers of them? Do we really want to bet that we can “luck out” and have proficient, courageous, adequate military personnel available every time so that the actual agitators who have provoked the conflict – and any and all innocents in the area – can be protected from harm…at the risk of the military personnel as well?
Please also remember that these aren’t always just a couple of guys with a few guns, as damaging as that can be. These are people who often blow themselves and others up with what are actually weapons of mass destruction, designed to infliict broad casualties. It’s NOT cowardice to not unnecessarily, gratuitously create these scenarios. What good does it do after the fact of a devastating event to say, “Oh well we really showed them anyway what we think!”
The people who are getting all enthusiastic about shoving defamatory cartoons in the faces of ALL people of that faith are doing so for a reason, obviously. It’s kind of a, “Oh yeah, we’ll show you what we think of your stupid religion, beliefs, etc.” But since this is really an IMPOTENT action, it shows the frustration, lack of real resourcefulness and…FEAR of these proponents. It’s kind of another way of saying, “We’re not afraid of your fire, we’re proving it by bringing a lot of paper to it.”
There are many more things to say here to try to appeal to people’s common sense and sense of self-preservation. It’s anything but cowardice to recognize exactly what one’s “opponent” is doing and capable of…and crafting EFFECTIVE strategies for dealing with it.
The reason though that people are attracted to what are just shows of false bravado is because deep down they recognize that they (we) are confronted by a possibly unstoppable…TACTIC in the form of terrorism, which is still relatively, but not completely, unknown here. That is something that I’m sure all intelligence agencies are very well aware of. So now the real job here is to use our own…intelligence to deal as best as we can with this underlying problem to protect ourselves, families, communities, etc., not make it easier by effectively saying, “Hey you, we’re over here, come and get us (and everyone in the vicinity)”.
The more we look at this honestly, the more our intelligence and common sense tells use to choose our battles and our tactics wisely…when and where we can. And to not needlessly, for some momentary angry satisfaction, indulge in thoughtlessly insulting and inflaming people who for the most part truly aren’t involved, who aren’t the terrorists.
Angemon says
Michael Horn posted:
“And certainly my point of view, my…free speech ticks off a lot of people, results in their calling me names”
Is that what you’re telling yourself? Lol. Anyone reading what you’re posted so far can see that people are getting ticked off not because of your point of view per se (although defending the wanna-be killers and slandering the people standing for free speech isn’t helping) but mostly because you go out of your way to insult and disrespect other people. Case in point: you stared to address me by calling me a coward.
Also, I’m sure that other regulars are used to it by now: whenever there’s a high-profile islamic terrorism attack we tend to get one or more people here trying to obfuscate the whole matter and whitewash the role of islam. They behave exactly like like Michael did here. Heck, here are some of the usual cliches:
– The killers were crazy, or evil, people (as opposed to muslims acting upon islamic tenets)
– The victims somehow brought it upon themselves (implying that in some circumstances it’s acceptable to go out and kill someone for some perceived offense)
– Most of the muslims worldwide aren’t killing people (doesn’t really matter if most muslims worldwide do support those who are killing people, right?)
– Poverty/ignorance causes terrorism (because Bin Laden was a street beggar and there are plenty of suicide bombers hailing, for example, from Brazilian favelas, right?)
– Muslims hate America because it has troops in muslim countries slaughtering thousands and thousands of muslims, on a daily basis (even though armies of muslims acting upon islamic tenets invaded Europe over 1000 years before America even existed. Also, the first war between America and muslim nations was started by unprovoked attacks on American cargo ships, justified by the quranic imperative to attack non-muslims)
– Muslims hate America and Europe because of American imperialism and European colonialism (Americans have had troops in many, many countries worldwide, including Germany and Japan, so if american foreign policies are the cause of terrorisn, why didn’t German or Japanese man the planes on 9/11? Also, the greatest colonial empire ever was the ottoman Empire, European colonization took place in a short timespan after centuries of islamic aggression and colonization of Europe. What is now called “the islamic world” would be more accurately described as “occupied christian lands”).
And those are just from the top of my head.
Michael Horn says
“Angemon”,
Do I detect a little irony – or just plain hypocrsisy – here? You’re actually complaining about me “insulting and disrespecting other people”, you who supports real disrespect to an entire religious group?
I suggest that you read my actual responses, actual words, logic and reasoning. As I pointed out to Daniel, Christians kill Christians, Jews kill Muslims, Muslims kill thers, etc, these body, ignorant religions – ALL of them – are the poison itself that contaminates people. Of course many believers in these religions don’t harm anyone, the majority in fact, and are just ontent to believe the various fairy tales and think that theirs is the “one true God, religion, savior”, etc., which by definition, makes them ALL false and wrong. But don’t trouble yourself to think through that, just keep…reacting.
Yes, you’re a…coward. An anonymous blowhard who’s too chicken to use and post his/her real identity (like a number of others here and all ovdr the internet), making your opinion…what? Possibly generated by a computer, etc., and like all of the stuff from the “top” of your head, meaningless as well.
Angemon says
Michael Horn posted:
““Angemon”,
Do I detect a little irony – or just plain hypocrsisy – here?”
hat depends. Are you reading your posts, specifically the parts where you try to claim that all religions are the same, the parts where you blame the victims? and the parts where you complain about others insulting you?
“You’re actually complaining about me “insulting and disrespecting other people””
That’s what you’ve been doing here.
“you who supports real disrespect to an entire religious group?”
And exactly where do I do such a thing?
“I suggest that you read my actual responses, actual words, logic and reasoning.”
I did. I replied to them and you saw fit to ignore most of my responses, as they poke holes in your arguments.
“As I pointed out to Daniel, Christians kill Christians, Jews kill Muslims, Muslims kill thers, etc, these body, ignorant religions – ALL of them – are the poison itself that contaminates people.”
And, as I pointed out, religions are defined by what their tenets say, not by what their adherents are.
“Of course many believers in these religions don’t harm anyone”
That doesn’t exempt any religion from scrutiny.
“the majority in fact, and are just ontent to believe the various fairy tales and think that theirs is the “one true God, religion, savior”, etc., which by definition, makes them ALL false and wrong.”
Try saying that to Christians in the Vatican, Buddhists in Lumbini, and muslims in Saudi Arabia, then let us know if they all reacted the same way.
“Yes, you’re a…coward. An anonymous blowhard who’s too chicken to use and post his/her real identity (like a number of others here and all ovdr the internet), making your opinion…what? Possibly generated by a computer, etc., and like all of the stuff from the “top” of your head, meaningless as well.”
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! What “Michael Horn” here overlooks, for the sake of gratuitous insults, is that Jihad Watch requires no proof of identity to sign in. There’s no more evidence that my real name isn’t Angemon that there is of his real name being Michael Horn. And yet, that’s the card castle he stands on to justify ignoring perfectly valid comments.
Let me repeat that for you: “Michael Horn” ignores, for example, my rebutal of the argument that poverty causes terrorism (Bin Laden was a millionaire and, as far as I know, there are no cases of suicide bombers hailing, for example, from Brazilian favelas) because he says my username is not my real name. Because screw you logic and reasoning, right?
This is exactly the kind of delusional arguments steaming from islamic supremacists.
Thank you for the laugh, Michael. Meanwhile, my points still stand, and other JW readers are able to make their own minds about them, as opposed to deciding they’re “possibly generated by a computer” and refusing to discuss them, like a cowardly chicken would do 😉
John Billings says
This discussion is going to go on endlessly. I will end my part in it by (re)stating that Islam is evil, being born of Mohammed who raped little girls. His followers have done so and many other evil acts to this day.
Michael Horn says
Hey there John,
Since you’re leaving you probably won’t answer but do you think there’s a chance that Islam is no more or less evil than…the Catholic Church?
After all, your claims about Mohammed aren’t based on any actual evidence, just words in a book, the same level of “proof” that exists for all religious beliefs.
But the thing is that we have REAL, live proof of the centuries of rape and abuse of boys and girls and women actually by the degenerate perverts in the Church and many churches. Do you think the Church and its affiliates should perhaps be abolished, banned, wiped of the face of the Earth…or do you think that it/they should should remain for all the stupid, gullible “true believers”?
Just asking.
45charlie says
Horn get over yourself you narsisitic idiot.
John Billings says
I am perhaps acting the fool for continuing this debate. But I feel the need to correct M. Horn on one point.
When Catholics or other Christians molest children, they are sinning against their religion. When Muslims do the same, they are following theirs. Christians follow Jesus, who said, “let the little children come unto me”. Muslims follow Mohammed, who said, in effect, “let me come into little children”.
Bob Wiegand says
Insulting all people of all faiths is a miss conceived inference in what Michael Horn is writing about. All religions have been falsified, Jews started it in the 400’s bc and going forward out of Spain, removed the mother god theory and stuck with a tyrant male god and made themselves the chosen ones. Call everyone anti semite – like a knee reflex when not agreed with. The Muslims came in to hold back the jews and the christians were were killing hordes of peoples and enslaving them with falsified teachings and taking money and property/ land. Whats interesting is jews, christians, muslims are considered of the same tree and just branches of it while Buddhists are not.
if you feel that the above is insulting whole groups of people, then lets just call all these followers stupid!. Just to help you simple mind the whole of the statement from Michael.. Does that piss you off? Since it does then how do Muslims feel when satire and mockery, hiding under free speech, mock muslims, who by the way DO NOT MAKE FUN of other religions, with negative comedy, cartoons, and ridiculing irony and satire.
You people who follow Pamela are not educatable, not help*able. may your gods have mercy on you and bring you the light of darkness and if you look around, it’s the fools leading the fools.