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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

AFDI Rolls Out New Free Speech Billboard Campaign Featuring Muhammad Cartoon

Jun 8, 2015 12:46 pm By Robert Spencer

Breaking at Breitbart (via Pamela Geller): today St. Louis, Missouri, tomorrow another city in another state Contribute to this ad campaign — go here.

“AFDI Rolls Out New Free Speech Billboard Campaign Featuring Muhammad Cartoon,” Breitbart News, June 8, 2015:

NEW YORK, June 5, 2015: The human rights advocacy group the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) has announced a new billboard campaign to defend the freedom of speech and stand up to violent intimidation.

AFDI President Pamela Geller said in a statement: “Because the media and the cultural and political elites continue to self-enforce the Sharia without the consent of the American people by refusing to show any depictions of Muhammad or showing what it was in Texas that had jihadists opening fire, we are running a billboard ad featuring the winning cartoon by former Muslim Bosch Fawstin from our Muhammad Art Exhibit and Cartoon Contest in Garland, Texas.”

The new free speech campaign went up on 100 billboards today in St. Louis.

IMG_5617

Geller explained: “Drawing Muhammad is not illegal under American law, but only under Islamic law. Violence that arises over the cartoons is solely the responsibility of the Islamic jihadists who perpetrate it. Either America will stand now against attempts to suppress the freedom of speech by violence, or will submit and give the violent the signal that we can be silenced by threats and murder.”

IMG_5581

“Speech that is offensive to some must not be curtailed, but protected (i.e., the Mohammed cartoons). Freedom of speech is the foundation of a free society. Without it, a tyrant can wreak havoc unopposed, while his opponents are silenced. If speech that offends a group is outlawed, that group has absolute power, and a free society is destroyed. A group that cannot be criticized cannot be opposed. It can work its will no matter what it is, and no one will be able to say anything to stop it.”

IMG_5596

Geller added: “There is nothing about this cartoon that incites violence. It is within the established American tradition of satire. If America surrenders on this point, the freedom of speech is a relic of history.”

AFDI free speech drawing ad

AFDI Vice President Robert Spencer stated: “Many people on both the Left and the Right are saying that we should do nothing to provoke Islamic fundamentalism. The immediate answer would seem to be that we should do nothing to provoke violent jihadis, that the prudent thing to do would be to avoid doing things that anger them. But if we did that, they would not they stop coming at us. Last September, an Islamic State spokesman boasted: ‘We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women, by the permission of Allah, the Exalted. This is His promise to us; He is glorified and He does not fail in His promise. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.’

In light of that, what is the point of asking whether or not we should provoke them? They’re already provoked. A more useful question now is whether it is really productive and helpful to signal to them that we will acquiesce to their threats of violence and change our behavior accordingly, or whether we will instead signal to them that their violent threats are not going to frighten us into submission.”

The ads have been submitted to run on billboards in the St. Louis area. They next city will be going up tomorrow.

AFDI stands for:

  • The freedom of speech – as opposed to Islamic prohibitions of “blasphemy” and “slander,” which are used effectively to quash honest discussion of jihad and Islamic supremacism;
  • The freedom of conscience – as opposed to the Islamic death penalty for apostasy;
  • The equality of rights of all people before the law – as opposed to Sharia’s institutionalized discrimination against women and non-Muslims.

Join the AFDI Facebook page here.

IMG_5539 IMG_5521 St Louis Airport AFDI ad

 

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Filed Under: American Freedom Defense Initiative, Featured, free speech, Muhammad cartoons Tagged With: St. Louis


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Comments

  1. Jaladhi says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    Let’s see how long before our MSM starts whining about provoking Muslims? They will work very hard to find some loopholes to bring down these bill boards showing Mo/allah!! If that happens in St. Louise then the hopes of putting these bill boards in other cities are dim!

    • Jovial Joe says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 3:21 pm

      Here’s the billboards the muslim taqqya artists have erected in Atlanta: http://m.ajc.com/news/news/billboard-campaign-prophet-muhammad-comes-atlanta/nmSNT/
      Should anyone complain that muslims are being ‘victimised’ by Pamela’s billboards. Free speech in action!

      • Jovial Joe says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 3:33 pm

        I wonder if the msm will show these AFDI billboards to illustrate their coverage of this news? Hmmm

      • jihad3tracker says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 4:54 pm

        Hello JJ —

        Looking at the Muslim taqiyya artists “message” in the link you provide shows that they are absolutely desperate, telling the most transparent pathetic lies.

        And the comments are totally mercilous — no Americans with IQs higher than my aquarium guppies swallow one bit of it. Some down-home fellow years ago said “You can’t polish a turd”.

        CAIR and its seditionist allies are throwing a Hail Mary pass with that turd — and they should not be surprised when no one tries to catch it.

        • Jaladhi says

          Jun 8, 2015 at 5:03 pm

          I think there are many lefty liberals who buy into Muslim taqiyya and go out in support of Muslim victimhood etc. AFDI bill boards should be placed right next to those Muslim dawwaah boards.

      • gravenimage says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 11:53 pm

        Muhammed believed in peace, social justice, and women’s rights? My God, what bald-faced Taqiyya!

        Thanks for the link, Joe.

  2. Angemon says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    Let’s see how long ’till they’re vandalized by “anti-bigotry” “activists”…

    • jihad3tracker says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 1:33 pm

      Oh, there you go again, Angemon ! ! ! I get so tired of all the cynicism on this blog . . .

      Don’t tell this to anyone, but the grapevine is overloaded with rumors that poofy-poof “I always carry a mirror” Scholar of Religions Reza Aslan is training 100 attack poodles to guard all the places these Geller Courage 1st Amendment tributes are placed.

    • Alarmed Pig Farmer says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 2:34 pm

      Actually, I hope they *are* vandalized. More dialog = more free speech, and a spray paint can wielded by a graffiti “artist” is the instrument to paint a picture, to dialog, like a quill in the hand of Doestoevsky or a typewriter in front of Ernest Hemingway.

      Also, I am delighted to see these are cheap, short, rusted, dented billboard platforms. They’re nasty down market things. What better place to put the Holy Prophet Mohammed? Shoot some spray paint on the drawing of Him and it’d be nearly perfect. At that point the only possible improvement would be to go take a dump at the base of the post.

      • jihad3tracker says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 2:49 pm

        I wonder if there are any Muslim taggers in the United States. You know — the guys who spray paint designs on warehouses / walls adjacent to railroad tracks . . .

        Tagging in Arabic —- now there is something new and exciting which multiculturalism & BHO’s immigration philosophy made possible.

        • Alarmed Pig Farmer says

          Jun 8, 2015 at 3:08 pm

          As we’ve learned well over the last 14 years, there is always room to sink lower. So taggers defacing the nation in Arabic script is probably inevitable. Down, down, down.

          Put another way, as Prez Barack Hussein might say, Bottoms up!

        • Bezelel says

          Jun 9, 2015 at 8:50 am

          There has been an attack with pink spray paint on the Pamela’s ads in subways by a Egyptian female muslima, I believe her name is monica athaway? She actually sprayed paint on one of Pamela’s friends who was trying to block her. Atlas should have an archive of it.

      • VRWC member77 says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 7:18 pm

        APF,
        When you say “More dialog = more free speech” Think about it. If they deface these boards whether they be muslims or non-muslims it’s an “assault” on their “prophet” and they show their colors in hyper atomic rage for all the non-engaged to see.

        If they aren’t defaced, the unengaged will become curious and the supremacists will seethe with rage. *perfect*

        This woman Pamela, is brilliant.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 8, 2015 at 7:50 pm

          To VRWC:77member- Excellent comment. Thank you. And I too think Pamela is an absolute genius for conceiving this billboard idea. I always wanted to visit St Louis, but I will plan my next year’s vacation to include a couple of days there. I also salute whatever beaureacrats in St Louis agreed to this idea. They obviously support free speech too, even if they made a buck on it. Hopefully the billboards will still be there, and not defaced or taken down. God bless Pamela and this website. History is being made!

      • gravenimage says

        Jun 9, 2015 at 10:11 am

        Alarmed Pig Farmer wrote:

        Actually, I hope they *are* vandalized. More dialog = more free speech, and a spray paint can wielded by a graffiti “artist” is the instrument to paint a picture, to dialog, like a quill in the hand of Doestoevsky or a typewriter in front of Ernest Hemingway…
        ………………………………….

        Grimly hilarious, APF. I’m sure you’re referring to this bit of insanity:

        “SF Chronicle celebrates anti-free speech vandalism of AFDI ads as ‘love'”

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/01/sf-chronicle-celebrates-anti-free-speech-vandalism-of-afdi-ads-as-love

  3. Jovial Joe says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    What a beautiful sught 🙂 Keep up the good fight Pamela, Robert and Bosch!

    • Jovial Joe says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 12:59 pm

      What a beautiful sight even 🙂 Keep up the good fight Pamela, Robert and Bosch!

  4. ich says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    Thank you for being so brave.
    Please keep alert and watch out for the bad guys.
    They wont be hard to spot.

    I am sure you aren’t the only brave souls in America .

    Blessings from Canada !

  5. mortimer says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:03 pm

    This is a worthy project. Thank you Pamela and thank you to all her supporters.

    Only freedom of expression can destroy Islamic terrorism and theocratic fascism.

  6. ECAW says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:13 pm

    Wonderful response. Congratulations to Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and AFDI.

  7. Paladin says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    As far as I can tell, there appears to be one woman and one man in the entire west who are standing as a bulwark against the tyranny of sharia blasphemy laws. Thank
    you Robert and Pam Geller for having the courage of your convictions. The West owes you a debt of gratitude not easily repaid.

    • jihad3tracker says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 5:02 pm

      You nailed the truth excellently, Paladin. I commented several days ago about Pam’s and Robert’s extraordinary bravery.

      They are doing something which will eventually be understood as a defining episode in the survival of our nation — big words but absolutely true.

    • voegelinian says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 6:29 pm

      There are others too; read the Gates of Vienna blog to find out about many other brave souls pushing the Counter-Jihad envelope, particularly in Europe and the UK.

  8. Papa Whiskey says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    “Stop them damned pictures. I don’t care so much what the papers say about me. My constituents don’t know how to read, but they can’t help seeing them damned pictures!”

    — William M. “Boss” Tweed, 19th century leader of New York’s Tammany Hall machine, on the cartoons of Thomas Nast

    That’s the power of the cartoon — all it takes to deliver its truth is one glance.

    • jihad3tracker says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 1:39 pm

      The mincing sissies at CAIR might as well try channeling Boss Tweed — nothing else seems to be working anymore.

      Recall the maxim — “If it weren’t for bad luck, they wouldn’t have any luck at all.”

      David Wood has a wry remark in one of his posts (paraphrasing) — 3 attempts on Pam’s life, resulting in 3 failures. Maybe Allah is not as powerful as Muslims think he is.

  9. Joseph says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    Another good billboard outside a porn shop.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gotweight/1992802926

    The business was hard hit. BILLBOARDS DO WORK.
    Please keep it up Pamela Geller.
    and…THANK YOU

    • Mirren10 says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 8:55 am

      That is *hilarious* ! 🙂

    • Stardusty Psyche says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 9:06 am

      I had always suspected JC to be a voyeur…he is said to be quite preoccupied with who does what to who and how…apparently he is now lurking about looking over the shoulders of porn shoppers…

  10. Tequila Not Taqiyya says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    Way to go Pam and Robert!!!

  11. Bezelel says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 1:57 pm

    I wish I could say, Your tax dollars at work, but we all know it’s from Robert and Pamela’s supporters who value words like “All men are created equal” and “support and defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic”. The Bill Of Rights Matters!!!

  12. Theodoric says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:01 pm

    Bravo AFDI and Pamela Geller!

    Nobody’s “Prophet” has a right NOT TO BE MOCKED.

    Even HUMAN “Prophets” have NO right “NOT TO BE MOCKED” – and the same thing goes for Islam’s Muhammasaurus Rasulex.

    https://drawthevileprophet.wordpress.com/2015/05/09/no-prophet-has-a-right-not-to-be-mocked/

  13. Mark DeFord Eletion says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    Here’s a suggestion that may increase the effectiveness of the billboards. Set up a low-power radio transmitter nearby that broadcasts a short, simple message related to the billboard’s content.

    • jihad3tracker says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 2:52 pm

      A seriously interesting idea, MDE.

    • Bezelel says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 4:44 pm

      Just a suggestion(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ) Rock the Casba

      • jihad3tracker says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 7:23 pm

        Yes, Bezelel

        Classic 1980s culture — including A HASIDIC JEW ! ! ! The production standard for such prehistoric music videos was, to put it kindly, elementary.

        By the way, I will be traveling to the cities where AFDI / Pam / Robert are putting their next 3 billboards, and applying a thick layer of pork fat to the poles elevating the Muhammad images.

        Halal versus haram comes to the public square . . . 21st Century America crashes headlong into 7th Century Medina. CAIR — call your office !

        • Bezelel says

          Jun 8, 2015 at 10:13 pm

          j3t, May your trip be blessed. We can consider the pork fat as an appropriate anointing for all things islamic.

      • Mo says

        Jun 8, 2015 at 8:59 pm

        @ Bezelel

        “Just a suggestion(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ) Rock the Casba”

        YES!!

        I enjoyed this song as a kid growing up, but I never realized all the lyrics until just a year or so ago!

        • Bezelel says

          Jun 8, 2015 at 10:06 pm

          Mo, I’m glad you and J3T enjoyed it. I found the lyrics as well,
          Now the king told the boogie men
          You have to let that raga drop
          The oil down the desert way
          Has been shakin’ to the top
          The sheik he drove his Cadillac
          He went a’ cruisnin’ down the ville
          The muezzin was a’ standing
          On the radiator grille

          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah
          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah

          By order of the prophet
          We ban that boogie sound
          Degenerate the faithful
          With that crazy Casbah sound
          But the Bedouin they brought out
          The electric camel drum
          The local guitar picker
          Got his guitar picking thumb
          As soon as the shareef
          Had cleared the square
          They began to wail

          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah
          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah

          Now over at the temple
          Oh! They really pack ’em in
          The in crowd say it’s cool
          To dig this chanting thing
          But as the wind changed direction
          The temple band took five
          The crowd caught a wiff
          Of that crazy Casbah jive

          The king called up his jet fighters
          He said you better earn your pay
          Drop your bombs between the minarets
          Down the Casbah way

          As soon as the shareef was
          Chauffeured outta there
          The jet pilots tuned to
          The cockpit radio blare

          As soon as the shareef was
          Outta their hair
          The jet pilots wailed

          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah
          The shareef don’t like it
          Rockin’ the Casbah
          Rock the Casbah

          He thinks it’s not kosher
          Fundamentally he can’t take it.
          You know he really hates it.

  14. Peter Hyatt says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    This is about Propaganda techniques (one of them) with Global Warming as the sample used to highlight it. You may “fill in the blank” with any Obama-Propagated issue, including his loyalty to the Muslim brotherhood and his resentment towards “the white man” and his “Christian religion” that he believes has oppressed the world:

    http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/06/global-warming-and-deception.html

  15. duh_swami says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:10 pm

    I’m provoking you, ooobeee dooo. But better than that, I’m provoking Bill O’Reilly, those are bill-boards.
    DHIMMITUDE…remember that one? Keep those billboards coming…Burma Shave anyone?

  16. spot on says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    100 Billboards in STL. Probably some in Ferguson too. Some places look familiar. This is rich. Gotta love it. Congratulations and appreciation to Robert and Pamela.

    This is perfect and exactly what is needed. If Muslims see Mohammed pictures all around, the Muslims will get the hint that they are not our boss. After some scuffles, everyone should be safer.

  17. Alarmed Pig Farmer says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    I think that when CNN news entertainer Chris Cuomo kept saying “but you know that…” to Geller in the interview on another thread here, subliminally he was thinking, “Aw, c’mon Pam, you *know* that Moslems are offensive.”

    And so I find this this billboard to be offensive, and I am offended by it. Why do I have to when I’m driving down the street have to endure the scowling face of the Holy Prophet Mohammed, isn’t traffic bad enough? There’s too much traffic is Moslems these days, and it’s hairy traffic.

    Life would be better, and less offensive, if we all just pretend that Moslems are normal people and get on with our lives.

    • spot on says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 5:16 pm

      Obama and Democrat theme…

      Oh-ho, yes, we are a all pretenders
      Pretending that Muslims.. aren’t around
      Our need is such, we pretend too much
      That danger is no where to be found
      Pretending that Muslims aren’t around

      BTW, Mohammed’s scowling face in 100 places in STLis a good thoing and it will put a smile on this face but I wonder what Al Sharpton will have to say about it.

      The Ferguson demonstrators last time did not get paid their $5000 for burning buildings. Maybe they will go on strike this time and not burn any more. If Muslims do tear up Ferguson again, Governor Nixon will blame Pamela, and the few businesses that are left there will probably leave.

  18. gravenimage says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    Bravo AFDI, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and cartoonist Bosch Fawstin for your continued courage in the face of threats and savagery! This looks like a great billboard campaign.

  19. Susan says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 2:45 pm

    Pamela, just when I start to get depressed about the islamic invasion you come through again and again. I think the billboard campaign is beyond brilliant. Now a lot of people who are still asleep may start to wake up. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Same for Robert Spencer and Bosch Fawstin. All please stay safe your courage is appreciated. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

    • Susan says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 2:48 pm

      This is Susan from Canada trying to come up with a better name.

  20. Xero_G says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 3:49 pm

    Good way to bankrupt the Jihadists! All those “blasphemous” billboards… so little time to destroy each one. And soon expanding into other cities, the Jihadists may be forced to pawn some of their weapons to afford the gas money needed to drive to each location.

  21. Lesley says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 6:03 pm

    Pamela Gellar, you are so brave! I hope to see the visages of Pam Gellar and Robert Spencer immortalized in bronze some day; they are heroes!

  22. jon hanks says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    As a former St. Louis boy, I am as pleased as punch. God bless Pamela for her courage and conviction.

  23. jon hanks says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 6:38 pm

    Looking at these billboards, in a curious way it’s funny: Funny that we’re having to have a discussion in this country about the virtues of free speech, and even stranger that anyone could think that Islamic fundamentaiism, let alone extremism, has any proper place in a free, democratic, Western society.

  24. catherine says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 7:25 pm

    Congratulations,Pamela and Robert! I was thinking of you today, while touring the Norman Rockwell Museum. This American icon completed four huge canvasses on the Four Freedoms – the Freedom from Fear, Freedom from Want, the Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Religion. Your campaign speeds to at least 2, if not 3 of these freedoms. His Freedom of Speech painting has a man standing in a townhall meeting, with all of his neighbours seated, watching him, while he asks an unpopular question.

    • jihad3tracker says

      Jun 8, 2015 at 8:12 pm

      Hello Catherine — Thank you for mentioning Norman Rockwell and his Freedom of Speech illustration (one of many that boosted our morale during very challenging years)..

      It was published in (correct me if I am wrong) the Saturday Evening Post as World War II raged on with victory of our Allies or the Axis yet unknown.

      FOR A HUGE GIFT OF INSPIRATION REGARDING COUNTER-JIHAD — do a web search of brilliant artist patriots who freely contributed to the war effort. There are many.

      Tom Brokaw, a decade ago or thereabouts, called them “the greatest generation” — which they were, knowing that failure was a guarantee of Fascism’s prevalence. :

  25. Canto28 says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 9:34 pm

    Excellent idea this billboard! Wish there were thousands of them all over the country to make a crucial point not just about free speech but about necessary DEFIANCE against Islamic tyranny.

  26. Dan says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 9:38 pm

    Everyone stop by Pamela’s site Freedom Outpost … We love Pamela Geller Patriot !

  27. Stardusty Psyche says

    Jun 8, 2015 at 10:15 pm

    Great move by AFDI.

    If the fundamentalists deface the billboards they will be defacing their own prophet.

    If they don’t deface the billboards the blasphemy stands.

    Interesting choice, St. Louis…anybody know why that city was chosen?

  28. robert bayer says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 12:33 am

    Dear Pamela,

    You are one of the bravest, patriotic and key American leaders in the history of our nation.

    Yet I believe this is a mistake. Don’t make this about cartoons. Make this about the innocent men, women and children who are being beheaded, burned alive, raped, enslaved, blown up. Make this about Islam enslaving women, murdering gays, and hating America.

    Yes you, Mr. Spencer and others have been doing this at your websites but NOT specific acts of horror on billboards and buses, and also not citing enough of these Islamic horrors in your debates with the traitorous, foolhardy MSM.

    FOR EXAMPLE .. with as graphic as possible photographs …

    Sept. 22, 2013: Islamic suicide attack on a church in Peshawar, Pakistan, kills more than 80 and injures 250.
    OR
    Sept. 29, 2013: Islamic Boko Haram militants massacre 44 students at a college in Nigeria.
    OR
    May 20, 2014: Islamic Bombings in Jos, Nigeria, kill at least 118.
    OR
    May 22, 2014: IslamicMilitants in Urumqi, China, kill 39 and injure more than 90.
    OR
    Dec. 16, 2014: Islamic Terrorists open fire at a school in Peshawar, killing more than 140 including at least 132 children.

    Put out thousands of different ones to portray the thousands of crimes.

    Make thousands of simple Youtube videos made from Powerpoint to do this as well.

    Right now the MSM and the WH are doing all they can to disguise these horrors, and are even supporting the actual crimes in different ways by supplying weapons to the militants.

    The focus should be on how ISIS, Islam, CAIR, Obama and the Muslim Brotherhood are doing very bad and very evil things. Why not have a billboard that shows Obama and Congress giving a billion dollars of weapons to Islamic Militants that kick started ISIS?

    I ask you, which would the Islamicists rather see on the Billboard? Their atrocities or cases of Obama’s treason? Or Mohammed cartoons?

    They WANT YOUR Mohammed cartoon up so they can enrage their followers to madness and evil.

    Seriously!

    So there is no time nor resource to waste in waking America and the world up to these crimes against humanity.

    Ask yourself: What are we fighting for? (1) To publish cartoons or (2) stop the horrors, enslavement, atrocities and crimes against humanity?
    Being able to make fun of Islam is important … standing up to Sharia is important …. but think !!!!…. where on those billboards is there being communicated THE REASON FOR SPEAKING OUT AGAINST ISLAM .. FOR STANDING UP TO ISLAM and its horrors.

    Because the stakes are so high and the MSM is so pro-Islamic, there is no room for a message that can be used by the MSM against us.

    Please don’t be annoyed that anyone who is NOT putting his life on the line should have the audacity to challenge your approach. Instead .. think clearly about this and put the right message forward which is to protest 1 by 1 any and all the specific crimes against humanity wherever they occur.

    We all hate what Islam is doing and that is where the focus has to be.

    Americans and the world have to be educated. Do that and THEN put the cartoons up in unison!

    Thank you for all you are putting into this effort to fight Sharia and Islamic enslavement and crimes against humanity.

    • gravenimage says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 1:03 pm

      robert bayer wrote:

      You are one of the bravest, patriotic and key American leaders in the history of our nation.

      Yet I believe this is a mistake. Don’t make this about cartoons.
      ………………………………..

      With all respect, robert, I believe you are mistaken in thinking this is “about cartoons”.

      This is about asserting our right to freedom of speech in the face of Muslim threats and demands for Shari’ah compliance.

      If we cannot maintain our freedom of speech and our ability to criticize the violence of Islam, including that of the foul “Prophet” Muhammed who serves as the model for every Muslim savagery, then we won’t be able to condemn Muslim violence as you urge.

      More:

      Make this about the innocent men, women and children who are being beheaded, burned alive, raped, enslaved, blown up. Make this about Islam enslaving women, murdering gays, and hating America.
      ………………………………..

      Look back through the Jihad Watch archives and you will see that AFDI has addressed many of these issues, and will no doubt continue to do so in the future.

      More:

      I ask you, which would the Islamicists rather see on the Billboard? Their atrocities or cases of Obama’s treason? Or Mohammed cartoons?

      They WANT YOUR Mohammed cartoon up so they can enrage their followers to madness and evil.
      ………………………………..

      Your idea that it is only depictions of the “Prophet” that enrage Muslims is mistaken. Pious Mohammedans are “incited” by any flouting of Islamic strictures, and anything less than full submission to Islam.

      Further, the idea that Pamela is somehow playing into the hands of Jihadists for daring to assert our rights is a very odd one.

      More:

      Ask yourself: What are we fighting for? (1) To publish cartoons or (2) stop the horrors, enslavement, atrocities and crimes against humanity?
      ………………………………..

      Do you really believe that we can stop the horrors of Islam if we adhere to Shari’ah strictures on being allowed to depict and criticize Islam’s model man? Good luck with that…

      By the way, I’m an illustrator, writer, and sometime cartoonist. Unlike you, I don’t consider the right to publish cartoons to be a trivial one.

      Neither, I imagine, does Molly Norris, who was driven into hiding by Muslim death threats.

      The question is, why do *you* consider freedom of expression to be a triviality, when it is instead the cornerstone of our freedoms and linchpin in the fight against any kind of tyrannyh, including Islam?

      More:

      Because the stakes are so high and the MSM is so pro-Islamic, there is no room for a message that can be used by the MSM against us.
      ………………………………..

      Billboards depicting Muslim antisemitism, hatred of women and gays, and general violence have already been used by the MSM against the Anti-Jihad, because they claim that such depictions are “Islamophobic”. If you believe such billboards will not be criticized by both aggressive Muslim apologists and dhimmi tools, you are quite mistaken.

      More:

      Americans and the world have to be educated. Do that and THEN put the cartoons up in unison!
      ………………………………..

      This is exactly what AFDI is doing.

      More:

      Please don’t be annoyed that anyone who is NOT putting his life on the line should have the audacity to challenge your approach. Instead .. think clearly about this and put the right message forward which is to protest 1 by 1 any and all the specific crimes against humanity wherever they occur.
      ………………………………..

      If you feel that AFDI is not taking the approach you wish, you may put up billboards of your own.

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 10, 2015 at 5:24 am

        Dear Graven Image,

        You state that I do not understand what this is all about because I think this is all about cartoons.

        It is NOT I who misunderstand but your message of billboards with just Mohammed cartoons HAS ALREADY been twisted to do just that..

        It will simply be used by the MSM to show that the AFDI is trying to cause trouble .. and that is exactly what they have done.

        It will also be used by the Islamic leaders to gin up hatred.

        I have NOT stated to that Mohammed cartoons should not be put up. What I have said is it is best to only do so to protest the atrocities of Islam in conjunction with the cartoons.

        The AFDI is making a tactical mistake. Why put JUST the cartoons up? Why protest Sharia JUST by putting up cartoons in these specific billboards.

        The key point is NOT that the AFDI has been protesting other atrocities (Please reread what I wrote where I point out that the AFDI IS DOING THIS) but that it is failing in making this all about freedom of speech when there is nothing to protest inherently in the cartoons themselves.

        Another key point I made which you do not understand is I am suggesting that SPECIFIC ATROCITIES BE PUBLISHED to build awareness of the evils of Islam, because the personal-ness of showing certain individuals with some details about the horrible things that happened to them (burned alive, beheaded, 8-year old girls raped, ect.), the AFDI’S MESSAGE will resonate far more.

        Do you get this?

        By putting up just the cartoons in specific billboards, the American public will misunderstand and the MSM will help them to really misunderstand as the AFDI will be portrayed as simply ginning up trouble without any cause. This is NOT the truth but that is how it will be portrayed and has been by the MSM.

        The fact that other evils of Islam are alluded to in other billboards is irrelevant because the Mohammed cartoons WON’T have that message.

        Never protest if there is nothing important to protest over.

        You do realize that the original cartoons were MOCKING SPECIFIC EVILS of ISLAM, right? You seem to have forgotten this.

        Don’t degrade the effort to protest these evils by simply putting up a cartoon of Mohammed. Do it where the cartoon condemns specific evils of Islam.

        If the AFDI does NOT, then it is: (1) losing focus on why the cartoons are even needed, (2) making the AFDI the bad guy because they will be simply portrayed or erroneously thought of as jerks daring someone to kill them, and (3) Islamic leaders will use the cartoons to drum up more hatred and create more Islamic zombies for more evil deeds.

        But portray protests of specific evils themselves in the cartoons, such as the murder of gays or the stoning of raped women or the raping of children or the blowing up churches or the burning of school girls alive, and then you have shed great LIGHT on the evils of Islam and the world will understand far more what the he11 is happening.

        Keep on topic and that topic is that Islam is full of various kinds of evil and here they are.

        Use the cartoons to protest specific atrocities rather than as a way to stick your thumb in the eyes of the Islamic supremacists over simply the right to show Mohammed cartoons.

        Why protest with cartoons if the AFDI is NOT going to protest any specific evil? As it stands now, the AFDI is simply exercising its right to do something considered insulting to Islam.
        Sure the AFDI and every citizen has the right but that doesn’t make it a smart move. Show a cartoon that criticizes Islam for killing anyone who is not Islamic. Isn’t that what the AFDI is really trying to stop anyway?!

        The AFDI would still be fighting for freedom of speech if it includes the protest of specific atrocities of Islam and would still be fighting Sharia, only this time with a real message of protest.

        The fact that other billboards did concern atrocities means nothing because in the here and now; people will NOT automatically see that connection where there is only a cartoon of Mohammed.

        Make Islam look at its atrocities. Make the world think about them. The MSM certainly is not. The Whitehouse certainly is not. The fact that you put up some billboards before, does not link them with the cartoons that are now up. The atrocities need to be on the billboard or the public will not understand why you are doing this.

        Most of the public will say who cares if others don’t want me to make cartoons of Mohammed. I don’t want to anyway.

        But if you say that this specific horror happened on this specific date and that we should protest and condemn and work together to stop these horrors, then you have a message the public will support and that the MSM will have a much harder time twisting.

        And your parting shot concerning go ahead and put up your own billboards is simply an intellectual cop out.

        I am trying to help the AFDI. I have made some significant arguments and good suggestions and you have not successfully refuted any of them, only misunderstood and misportrayed them.

        • gravenimage says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 1:31 am

          robert bayer wrote:

          Dear Graven Image,

          You state that I do not understand what this is all about because I think this is all about cartoons.

          It is NOT I who misunderstand but your message of billboards with just Mohammed cartoons HAS ALREADY been twisted to do just that..

          It will simply be used by the MSM to show that the AFDI is trying to cause trouble .. and that is exactly what they have done.

          It will also be used by the Islamic leaders to gin up hatred.
          ………………………………

          Any criticism of Islam can be used in just the same fashion. Depicting Muslim atrocities is held to be “Islamophobic” because it allegedly posits all Muslims as violent.

          More:

          I have NOT stated to that Mohammed cartoons should not be put up. What I have said is it is best to only do so to protest the atrocities of Islam in conjunction with the cartoons.

          The AFDI is making a tactical mistake. Why put JUST the cartoons up? Why protest Sharia JUST by putting up cartoons in these specific billboards.

          The key point is NOT that the AFDI has been protesting other atrocities (Please reread what I wrote where I point out that the AFDI IS DOING THIS) but that it is failing in making this all about freedom of speech when there is nothing to protest inherently in the cartoons themselves.
          ………………………………

          There is the ban under Islam of daring to criticize or even depict the “Prophet”. Sorry if you do not consider this to be a significant issue.

          As for your suggestion that the billboards should have addressed multiple issues in the same message, this is logistically problematic. Most people just glance at a billboard for a very short period of time. A billboard that tried to cover several issues at once or had more than the pithiest caption would simply not be effective at all.

          More:

          Another key point I made which you do not understand is I am suggesting that SPECIFIC ATROCITIES BE PUBLISHED to build awareness of the evils of Islam, because the personal-ness of showing certain individuals with some details about the horrible things that happened to them (burned alive, beheaded, 8-year old girls raped, ect.), the AFDI’S MESSAGE will resonate far more.

          Do you get this?

          By putting up just the cartoons in specific billboards, the American public will misunderstand and the MSM will help them to really misunderstand as the AFDI will be portrayed as simply ginning up trouble without any cause. This is NOT the truth but that is how it will be portrayed and has been by the MSM.
          ………………………………

          Critics of Islam have certainly been excoriated for focussing on the atrocities of Islam. Your idea that AFDI would not be criticized for this is incorrect.

          More:

          The fact that other evils of Islam are alluded to in other billboards is irrelevant because the Mohammed cartoons WON’T have that message.
          ………………………………

          Again, your idea that a billboard message should tackle a multitude of issues simply is not workable. A billboard is not an essay or a blog post.

          More:

          Never protest if there is nothing important to protest over.
          ………………………………

          I believe that protecting our freedom of speech is extremely important—crucial, even.

          More:

          You do realize that the original cartoons were MOCKING SPECIFIC EVILS of ISLAM, right? You seem to have forgotten this.
          ………………………………

          By “original cartoons”, are you referring to the Danish MoToons? Some of them referred to the violence of Islam, and some of them—like Bosch Fawstin’s piece—referred to Muslims reacting violently to any criticism of Islam.

          And some—like the work of Lars Vilks—depicted Muhammed as a “boulevard dog” (a tradition in Sweden). They didn’t refer to specific evils in Islam.

          As for Charlie Hebdo, some of the cartoons referred to the violence of the “Prophet” or his followers, but many were simply satirical or just outrageous.

          My own cartoons do indeed depict specific evils of the “Prophet” Muhammed, such as his rape of little 9-year-old Aisha and his beheading of the Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe.

          http://s478.photobucket.com/user/gravenimageartist/library

          But there are many different possible approaches.

          More:

          Don’t degrade the effort to protest these evils by simply putting up a cartoon of Mohammed. Do it where the cartoon condemns specific evils of Islam.
          ………………………………

          This is not simply a cartoon of Mohammad—it is an image of the “Prophet” threatening that it is forbidden under Islam to depict him, and a brave cartoonist flouting that ban.

          I don’t believe that this message in *any way* “degrades” that of other cartoons.

          More:

          Use the cartoons to protest specific atrocities rather than as a way to stick your thumb in the eyes of the Islamic supremacists over simply the right to show Mohammed cartoons.

          Why protest with cartoons if the AFDI is NOT going to protest any specific evil? As it stands now, the AFDI is simply exercising its right to do something considered insulting to Islam.
          ………………………………

          If we lose the general right to “insult” Islam, then we lose the right to protest any of Islam’s atrocities.

          Under Shari’ah, *no* criticism or even questioning of Islam or the “Prophet” is allowed, including any criticism of Islamic violence.

          More:

          Sure the AFDI and every citizen has the right but that doesn’t make it a smart move. Show a cartoon that criticizes Islam for killing anyone who is not Islamic. Isn’t that what the AFDI is really trying to stop anyway?!
          ………………………………

          Actually, as I see it AFDI is trying to stop *any* Islamic strictures on our freedoms. How can it not further embolden violent Muslims to know that we are censoring ourselves to submit to Islamic strictures?

          More:

          Make Islam look at its atrocities.
          ………………………………

          Islam loves its atrocities. I believe the reason to broadcast Islam’s atrocities it to educate Infidels, not to try to shame pious Muslims, since pious Muslims have no shame. They are proud of savagery done in the name of their foul creed.

          More:

          But if you say that this specific horror happened on this specific date and that we should protest and condemn and work together to stop these horrors, then you have a message the public will support and that the MSM will have a much harder time twisting.
          ………………………………

          The MSM has no problem twisting this sort of thing at all. Here is just one representative example:

          “‘Countering Violent Extremism’ puts a narrow focus on Muslims”

          https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2015/02/20/countering-violent-extremism-puts-narrow-focus-muslims/w3Bc3NeT18NDpfobyTA3kO/story.html

          There are, of course, hundreds more like it.

          More:

          And your parting shot concerning go ahead and put up your own billboards is simply an intellectual cop out.
          ………………………………

          This was not a “parting shot” at all. It is hardly surprising that many Anti-Jihadists have their own ideas of what approach works best in fighting Jihad. Why shouldn’t we?

          As a result, many Anti-Jihadists have started their own blogs, written books or articles, or created cartoons.

          Neither Pamela Geller nor Robert Spencer started out as Anti-Jihadists in their earliest careers.

          More:

          I am trying to help the AFDI. I have made some significant arguments and good suggestions and you have not successfully refuted any of them, only misunderstood and misportrayed them.
          ………………………………

          Well, I disagree. You can present your views here—as you have done—or you can take your suggestions directly to AFDI. If they do not consider such suggestions to be specifically helpful in their approach, then you, like anyone else here, are free to pursue them on your own.

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 12, 2015 at 10:18 am

        Dear Graven Image,

        You are devolving into irrationality at a breathtaking pace! Congratulations!

        Graven Image wrote: Any criticism of Islam can be used in just the same fashion. Depicting Muslim atrocities is held to be “Islamophobic” because it allegedly posits all Muslims as violent.

        RESPONSE: Then I guess you have just condemned the entire work of the AFDI. Everything they have ever done is “Islamophobic” according to your premise.

        And you ingenuously miss the point I made, once again.. How convenient! It is A LOT easier to dismiss criticism as “Islamophobic” if you criticize THEM WITHOUT A REASON TO DO SO . Just putting up cartoons for no apparent reason.

        You lost again but double on this point.

         Graven Image wrote: There is the ban under Islam of daring to criticize or even depict the “Prophet”. Sorry if you do not consider this to be a significant issue.
        RESPONSE: Why do you want to fight this ban? You don’t seem t know why. Do your think those who framed the Bill of Rights had no specific grievances to ever protest? If there were no Islamic atrocities, would you or anyone or the AFDI ever care if no one ever broke that taboo? You are in fact helping the Islamic cause by taking attention away from the atrocities and making them look like the victims where some right wingers pick a fight for no apparent reason. The MSM is already doing this. Protest without a cause is NO protest. AND as usual, you once again misrepresented what I wrote. I stated to go ahead and show the damn cartoons but do so with a specific issue to protest about the Islamic horrors such as stoning raped women. Why were the first cartoons shown? To protest atrocities by Islam!

        Graven Image wrote: As for your suggestion that the billboards should have addressed multiple issues in the same message, this is logistically problematic. Most people just glance at a billboard for a very short period of time. A billboard that tried to cover several issues at once or had more than the pithiest caption would simply not be effective at all.

        RESPONSE: Are you really this daft? That you are willing to twist yourself into knots making outrageous alterations to an argument because you simply cannot defeat it as I stated. So it is logistically impossible to have a Mohammed cartoon that protests raped women being stoned to death? Hardly .. political cartoon satirists do such things in the newspapers every day of the week. You misunderstood once again. I never suggested putting 30 topics on one billboard but I did suggest protesting different Islamic horrors on different billboards. CNN would love to have you working for them as you refuse to understand anything presented to you and you immediately distort it. Graven Image .. Change your logon To Graven Grasping at Straws .. which is how I shall refer to y9ou from now on as I have zero respect for but much amusement for your ability to reason or discuss.

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote: Critics of Islam have certainly been excoriated for focussing on the atrocities of Islam. Your idea that AFDI would not be criticized for this is incorrect.

        RESPONSE: You seemed determined to commit every logical fallacy there is and this time you are inventing arguments that I never stated. I never maintained that critics of Islam would be beyond criticism for bringing up atrocities. What I stated, if anything can get through your 6-inch skull (a very numb one) is that it is FAR easier to gin up “excoriation” when the protesters NEVER explain exactly what it is that Islam is doing in the specific Mohammed they are protesting AND STILL ANOTHER MAJOR POINT is that the MSM go to great lengths to NEVER COVER THESE ATROCITIES as well as MISREPRESENTING THEM so as to excuse Islamic
        barbarians.

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote: Again, your idea that a billboard message should tackle a multitude of issues simply is not workable. A billboard is not an essay or a blog post.

        RESPONSE: Man you are dense .. You made the absurd conclusion that all these atrocities have to fit on one billboard. I said put the atrocities on billboards. Why would any sane person decide to put 30 or 40 issues on 1 billboard? Only you would it seems.

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote: I believe that protecting our freedom of speech is extremely important—crucial, even.

        RESPONSE: So protest things without explaining what you are protesting? That makes no sense at all. Freedom of speech IS FAR BETTER when you have something in mind that is WRONG that you needs to be stopped. IT IS NOT TRUE as you are suggesting that one cannot fight to protect FREEDOM of SPEECH unless one does NOT have an issue to fight for as if you cannot or should not do so. Another laughable comment by you.

         Graven Grasping at Straws wrote: By “original cartoons”, are you referring to the Danish MoToons? Some of them referred to the violence of Islam, and some of them—like Bosch Fawstin’s piece—referred to Muslims reacting violently to any criticism of Islam.
        And some—like the work of Lars Vilks—depicted Muhammed as a “boulevard dog” (a tradition in Sweden). They didn’t refer to specific evils in Islam.
        As for Charlie Hebdo, some of the cartoons referred to the violence of the “Prophet” or his followers, but many were simply satirical or just outrageous.
        My own cartoons do indeed depict specific evils of the “Prophet” Muhammed, such as his rape of little 9-year-old Aisha and his beheading of the Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe.
        http://s478.photobucket.com/user/gravenimageartist/library
        But there are many different possible approaches.

        RESPONSE: So you just admitted that the original cartoons DID PROTEST against specific abuses by Islam, including your own. Thanks for proving me right!

         Graven Grasping at Straws wrote: This is not simply a cartoon of Mohammad—it is an image of the “Prophet” threatening that it is forbidden under Islam to depict him, and a brave cartoonist flouting that ban.
        I don’t believe that this message in *any way* “degrades” that of other cartoons.

        RESPONSE: Believing something without giving a reason why means you don’t have an argument.
        Taking the focus off the atrocities is not smart and the MSM have and are using that opportunity to make all those fighting against Islam look bad, as if they had no reason to be upset about Islam.

         Graven Grasping at Straws wrote If we lose the general right to “insult” Islam, then we lose the right to protest any of Islam’s atrocities.
        Under Shari’ah, *no* criticism or even questioning of Islam or the “Prophet” is allowed, including any criticism of Islamic violence.

        RESPONSE:: And showing THE PROHPET cartoons that protest specific atrocities will NOT be submitting to Sharia but in fact fighting it far more effectively! Ask any Islamic Supremacists if they would want to see that either. Lame on your part once again.

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote Actually, as I see it AFDI is trying to stop *any* Islamic strictures on our freedoms. How can it not further embolden violent Muslims to know that we are censoring ourselves to submit to Islamic strictures?

        RESPONSE: I am not suggesting you stop using Mohammed cartoons but only ones that do not have a specific Islamic horror to protest thus there is no self-censure nor submission to Islam. Really weak ideas on your part simply because you refuse to think … at all ..

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote Islam loves its atrocities. I believe the reason to broadcast Islam’s atrocities it to educate Infidels, not to try to shame pious Muslims, since pious Muslims have no shame. They are proud of savagery done in the name of their foul creed.

        RESPONSE: So now you are arguing for NOT pointing out Islamic atrocities because Islamic barbarians are so proud of this?! That really is a fool’s argument. You forget once again there would be Mohammed cartoons on these billboards and so the Islamicists would NOT be happy at all seeing what I have proposed .. More so .. because they would know that the billboard was showing the rest of the world WHY ISLAMI IS TO BE DESPITED . such as the stoning of raped women. You lost this round too .. No surprise there, is there?

         Graven Grasping at Straws wrote The MSM has no problem twisting this sort of thing at all. Here is just one representative example: “‘Countering Violent Extremism’ puts a narrow focus on Muslims”
        https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2015/02/20/countering-violent-extremism-puts-narrow-focus-muslims/w3Bc3NeT18NDpfobyTA3kO/story.html
        There are, of course, hundreds more like it.

        RESPONSE: I stated it would be more difficult to twist the billboard as simply unreasonable hatred for Islam … since a reason for the protest would be included. No one can deny that unless they are really really dumb.

         Graven Grasping at Straws wrote This was not a “parting shot” at all. It is hardly surprising that many Anti-Jihadists have their own ideas of what approach works best in fighting Jihad. Why shouldn’t we?
        As a result, many Anti-Jihadists have started their own blogs, written books or articles, or created cartoons.
        Neither Pamela Geller nor Robert Spencer started out as Anti-Jihadists in their earliest careers.

        RESPONSE: You really are ridiculous. The topic is the billboards and you expand it for god knows what reason. My suggestions were to help the AFDI .. and they can take or leave them ..What you are really stating in an idiotic fashion is that unless you put your own billboards, you are not allowed to make suggestions. DUMB AS HECK YOU ARE!

        Graven Grasping at Straws wrote Well, I disagree. You can present your views here—as you have done—or you can take your suggestions directly to AFDI. If they do not consider such suggestions to be specifically helpful in their approach, then you, like anyone else here, are free to pursue them on your own.

        RESPONSE: Yeah ..and you didn’t refute a single one here either and all you did was show how ridiculous you are as a person and as someone incapable of reasoning or in communicating. Quite embarrassing for you ..but quite fun for me .. Keep posting and proving what I just stated to be true many times over…. 

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 12:40 pm

          To robert bayer- 2 points: I like your idea about putting up billboards, in addition to the Muhammad billboard cartoons, that show the violence and depravity of Islam. I think you should apologize to gravenimage because she doesn’t call you names. I misunderstood one poster here at JW because he was using sarcasm and I didn’t interpret and understand his words as sarcasm. Should people here be subject to ridicule and name calling because they might not grasp the inuendos of each statement combined with the entire piece?

        • robert bayer says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 10:38 pm

          Dear Folks,

          Thank you for your comments. I just want to emphasize that right now, innocent people across the world, whether neighborhood stoning parties, or part of a military campaign, are being raped, murdered and dismembered by the thousands. There is no time to waste on fools such as Graven Image.

          I don’t ask to be liked. I only will say what the truth appears to be. Right now the MSM and the Leftists are trashing AFDI and I see Graven Image as working to help that continue as Grasping at Straws never saw a single element of what I was posting as true or good, whereas all Graven Image did was misrepresent what I stated in a unfathomably ridiculous fashion So Graven Image can tear my post to pieces with fallacies and misrpresentations and I just let her do it? No I won’t.

          The time for gentility is over.1000s are dying and the Islamic Monsters are getting ready to kill MILLIONS. There is no time for fools such as Graven Grasping at Straws. I won’t back down to the MSM or their tools.

          I am only suggesting that a major campaign of cartoons alone leave the AFDI vulnerable to smearing and that Sharia is fought just as effectively and even more so by posting the Mohammed cartoons WITH 1 atrocity at a time. But the more ads, the more atrocities that are addressed, the better. The MSM and the Obama WH are crushing any news about these. So why is anyone who is fighting this going in a direction that will help them to continue to take the focus off these horrors?

          Linde Barrera, Thank you for your compliment.

          Mirren10, so you think garbage argumentation by Grasping at Straws is a legit poster? She distorted everything I stated with absolute negativity. And you are using insulting language right now. So no one is impressed by your nobility. And speaking of making comparisons with the LEFTISTS and Islamic supremacists, your imitation of them is perfect. You never referred to any real argument I made nor to Graven Grasping at Straws fallacies and misrepresentations.. You, GI, and the Leftists are all birds of a feather and quite hypocritical as all get out. Don’t worry though, I have zero fear of you and no respect for what you are saying here.

          Underbedcat, Thank you for simply communicating like a decent person would. I agree. I have sympathy for Pamela in wanting to show the winning entry to the world. But the MSM is waiting to misrepresent it and have done so. Use the Mohammed artwork but do so to point directly at the atrocities so that the American public and the world can learn something while putting pressure on the MSM to worry about making themselves look like there are supporting throwing gays off buildings and the like. By doing so, there would still be a fight and a stand taken against Sharia.

          Voegelian,
          You make an interesting point but if what you say is true then what you are saying is that it is impossible to protest atrocities. In my view, anyone belonging to a cult that kills and rapes thousands on a monthly basis, has blood on their hands even if they never did the acts. Nazi Germany had plenty of Nazis who simply lived normal lives but never lifted one finger nor had a second thought about the evils taking place. Someone has to communicate loudly that these evils are taking place or far worse will happen next, as was the case of Nazi Germany, Stalin Russia, Mao’s China, Iran, and ISIS.

          Champ, I agree. Spencer and Geller are heroic. I only make my suggestion as a suggestion and back down and respect whatever they decide is best for the AFDI. They can tell me to go he11. They might be wrong about some things but they are heroic and are making a big difference. For my part, I think they have some justification for wanting to show the winning entry but really .. the focus has swing back to be on the specific and widespread evils being perpetrated by Islam because it is all being swept under the rug by the leftists as if nothing wrong ever happened and so too exactly are the “peaceful” Islamic folks. Even the nice Islamic cult members are doing almost nothing to change the abhorrent violence and hate.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 11:55 pm

          To robert bayer- Just to let you and anyone else who is concerned about Christians in Syria and Iraq, I went online and made several calls in the past 3 days to various organizations as to why our government has not permitted any Christians who are being persecuted by ISIS to be allowed to emigrate to the USA. I spoke with Lutheran Social Services, the Immigration Dept of Agency for Children’s Services in NYC, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. All of these have been processing Muslim immigration but no Christians from Syria and Iraq. The 4 to 5 individuals I spoke with told me various things. 1 employee said to write to Secretary of State John Kerry as well as my US congressman. When I told her I wrote to Obama, Biden, the First Lady, my 2 US senators, I never got a response from any. “Gotz” as we say in the ghetto! She said “Don’t give up.” Another lady told me to call a “hotline” and then email her. Another lady told me that it is being worked on, and has been under consideration for several months. And to each person I spoke with, I stated that I have absolutely nothing against Muslims as persons because I am. person, but in their holy book the Quran it states “Kill the Infidels wherever they are found.” And I told them an “infidel ” is any non-Muslim. All of the personnel said they were aware of this core text. I also mentioned Poland agreeing to take several dozen families from Syria. God bless the Poles for their compassion and action. So now, besides writing to Kerry and my congressman, what is the next step? Is anybody there and does anyone care?

        • Angemon says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 1:14 pm

          robert bayer posted:

          “RESPONSE: Then I guess you have just condemned the entire work of the AFDI. Everything they have ever done is “Islamophobic” according to your premise.”

          It’s not GI’s premise, it’s the premise used by islamic apologists and sympathizers alike.

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 1:34 pm

          robert bayer, in a verbose and extremely arrogant post in reply to gravenimage’s calm and reasoned reply to his criticisms of the AFDI approach re the mohammed cartoons.

          He has shown himself to be not only an oaf, but one of those oafs who immediately start frothing at the mouth and flailing around, the minute their thoughts and opinions are disagreed with, or questioned.

          When discussing issues amongst civilised people, the intelligent response is to answer ones critic’s points; not to resort to childish insults, under the mistaken impression one is being satirical, or amusing.

          As it happens, bayer’s post merely underlines the fact he has failed to actually grasp the nub of the matter, and failed to understand gravenimage’s points, which underline the weakness of his case. He rationalises his intellectual failures by responding to graven’s calm critique with bluster, bombast, and insults.

          Gosh, who does this sort of thing, when they are questioned, and disagreed with ? Oh, I know, mohammedans and leftists.

          I haven’t seen bayer post here before; if this is an example of his debating and intellectual skills, let’s hope this unpleasant twerp doesn’t inflict himself on us, again.

          Get out the back, Jack, and don’t you come back no more, no more , don’t you come back no more !

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 9:14 am

          ‘bayer’ says;

          ”Mirren10, so you think garbage argumentation by Grasping at Straws is a legit poster? She distorted everything I stated with absolute negativity. And you are using insulting language right now. So no one is impressed by your nobility. And speaking of making comparisons with the LEFTISTS and Islamic supremacists, your imitation of them is perfect. You never referred to any real argument I made nor to Graven Grasping at Straws fallacies and misrepresentations..Mirren10, so you think garbage argumentation by Grasping at Straws is a legit poster? She distorted everything I stated with absolute negativity. And you are using insulting language right now. So no one is impressed by your nobility. And speaking of making comparisons with the LEFTISTS and Islamic supremacists, your imitation of them is perfect. You never referred to any real argument I made nor to Graven Grasping at Straws fallacies and misrepresentations.. You, GI, and the Leftists are all birds of a feather and quite hypocritical as all get out. Don’t worry though, I have zero fear of you and no respect for what you are saying here.”

          ”She distorted everything I stated with absolute negativity.”

          No, she didn’t. graven was pointing out to you that under sharia, any depiction of mohammed is blasphemy, punishable by death. Thus, the Bosch Fawstin cartoon of mohammed **defies** that sharia ruling, showing the mohammedans we refuse to bow to their ridiculous and obscene laws. The fact you seem unable to grasp this elemental point, speaks volumes as to your abilities to comprehend what has been said. The fact that you fail to grasp this is an essential point, free speech, tells me your interest in maintaining it is actually pretty low.

          ” And you are using insulting language right now. So no one is impressed by your nobility”

          Yep. Because you deserve it. I suggest you read graven’s posts again. *Nowhere* does she use insulting or denigrating language to you, as you have gratuitously done to her, merely because she disagreed with your points, and pointed out why she disagrees with them. As I said, only oafs ( in which I include islamoapologists, muslims and leftists, and yourself) respond to reasoned criticism and disagreement with diatribes such as you have treated us to. ‘Nobility’ ? What does that have to do with anything ? Every word you write merely underlines your determined obtuseness.

          ” And speaking of making comparisons with the LEFTISTS and Islamic supremacists, your imitation of them is perfect. You never referred to any real argument I made nor to Graven Grasping at Straws fallacies and misrepresentations.”

          Your ‘argument’ if one chooses to describe it as such, is that Bosch Fawstin’s cartoon, underlining the fact that non-muslims refuse to bow to sharia rulings, is a pointless waste of time, which will only enrage muslims, and instead, the AFDI should be producing posters decrying muslim atrocities. As graven politely indicated to you, this has been done many times; the ”#this is my jihadwhatsyours” response to CAIR’s attempts to whitewash jihad is a case in point, as are the posters underlining the koranic sanctification of anti-Semitism.

          This is not to say it shouldn’t be done again, and in fact, no-one *is* saying that, your criticism on this point is a silly red herring.

          So, in what way are my points ‘an imitation of Leftists and islamic supremacists’ ?

          ” … Graven Grasping at Straws fallacies and misrepresentations.”

          graven enunciated no fallacies, nor did she misrepresent anything you said. She merely disagreed with you, and said why. But oafs like you respond to disagreement with a vomitous outpouring of bile and rage. Hmm. Very interesting.

          ”You, GI, and the Leftists are all birds of a feather and quite hypocritical as all get out”

          Do you understand the meaning of the word, hypocrisy ? Where does graven, or myself, say anything hypocritical ? Get a dictionary.

          ”Don’t worry though, I have zero fear of you and no respect for what you are saying here.”

          Well, you certainly have no need to ‘fear’ me, in any way whatsoever. 🙂 I’m not going to attack you for being an ungracious oaf, except verbally. Is that what you’re afraid of? People who fear disagreement from others have a very shaky sense of self-worth; is that perhaps your problem ? The only ones you need to fear, are muslims, who will try to murder you for refusing to bow to sharia.

          ” …no respect for what you are saying here.”

          That’s fine, no-one has to respect anything *I* say. You might want to remember, however, that pious muslims will happily kill *you*, for failing to respect what *they* say, and failing to respect sharia.

          Toodle pip, Jack.

    • underbed cat says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 2:26 pm

      Robert Bayer, I somewhat agree , I think the word “cartoon” seems like mockery..and may lead people to erroneously think, who did not see the drawings, that they were offensive or disgusting, or false (unless you follow sharia ). The OIC wants to criminalize the truth and that speaks volumes. We do not live under sharia law (although we have a leader who promotes it) and we are allowed to examine ideas so now it is especially important to make sure laws are not passed to silence our speech or criminalize our right to know the the details of Islam and the religious obligation of jihad. (terror.
      So people can now view the drawings and question why men came to murder, these drawings aren’t so bad. Silence thru terror.

    • voegelinian says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 3:15 pm

      Certainly the reason why we are against Islam (and by the way, Jihad Watch is not “against Islam”, unfortunately) — the escalating myriad hydra-head of deadly dangers spewing from the intercontinental volcano of a global revival of jihad — is the whole point. However, were a campaign to feature only those facts, they might well be absorbed into the very efficient PC MC memeplex of the Tiny Minority of Extremists (quickly followed by “Wull, all religions have their extremists — what about Waco, Oklahoma City, abortion clinic doctors, the IRA, the Crusades, Yadda-Yadda Chaka-Laka Shahada…).

      Our war of ideas by which we are trying to wake up our West is, perforce (due to the complexity of the quantum ignorance of our PC MC-riddled-and-addled West), multifarious and protracted. It would be nice if it could proceed shortly and sweetly; but that’s not realistic.

      • Champ says

        Jun 9, 2015 at 3:36 pm

        (and by the way, Jihad Watch is not “against Islam”, unfortunately)

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Why is vicious ‘voeg’ putting this remark in parentheses? …when on another thread this was his main point in *that* comment. Oh sure …”by the way”, as if we’re suppose to take this as just some passing remark. I’m not.

        As I stated on that other thread — no one works harder than Robert Spencer to expose islam for what it is, so voeg’s lil’ dig doesn’t carry *any* weight; nor does it make much sense.

      • Angemon says

        Jun 9, 2015 at 5:04 pm

        voegelinian posted:

        “(and by the way, Jihad Watch is not “against Islam”, unfortunately)”

        Huh? Have you changed your hobbyhorse again? From “Jihad Watch did not publicize the event in Phoenix, I demand a thorough explanation, a Congressional hearing and reparations” to “Jihad Watch is not anti-islam”?

        Seriously, why do you keep coming here? I’m genuinely puzzled by your masochistic streak.

      • voegelinian says

        Jun 9, 2015 at 8:38 pm

        “Anti-Islam folks” like me. Now, this is simply false. I am not “anti-Islam.” — Robert Spencer

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/06/islam-what-the-west-needs-to-know-right-but-wrong

        And for more, see:

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/01/msnbc-we-have-to-respect-islam/comment-page-3#comment-1176085

        This climate among too many regulars here at Jihad Watch comments of attacking all critics indiscriminately is obtuse, boorish, and unhealthy.

        • Angemon says

          Jun 9, 2015 at 8:46 pm

          And? That does not answer none of my questions. My question was not “Where does Robert say he’s not anti-islam?”. Here, let me remind you of what I asked:

          Have you changed your hobbyhorse again? From “Jihad Watch did not publicize the event in Phoenix, I demand a thorough explanation, a Congressional hearing and reparations” to “Jihad Watch is not anti-islam”?

          Seriously, why do you keep coming here? I’m genuinely puzzled by your masochistic streak.

          So? Have you changed your hobbyhorse? Have you grew tired of your “why no mention of the event in Phoenix” diatribes and now you’re changing your tune? Well, it doesn’t really change all that much – you always seem to have an axe to grind with Robert, as if you can do what he does better than him. It doesn’t help that many, if not all, of your “criticism” (and here again, you’re all for criticism as long as you’re the one criticizing, not the one being criticized) are either misunderstandings on your side or something that would be easily dispelled on a conversation in good faith, which is something you’ve showed over and over that you simply won’t have, for whatever reason known only to you.

          Now, about that hobbyhorse…

        • Angemon says

          Jun 9, 2015 at 8:49 pm

          voegelinian posted:

          “This climate among too many regulars here at Jihad Watch comments of attacking all critics indiscriminately is obtuse, boorish, and unhealthy.”

          And you’d know about that, wouldn’t you? Replying to perfectly valid criticism with such “gems” as “you’re a pro-muslim troll” or “those guys are ardently defending muslims”.

        • Mo says

          Jun 9, 2015 at 8:59 pm

          @ voegelinian

          “This climate among too many regulars here at Jihad Watch comments of attacking all critics indiscriminately is obtuse, boorish, and unhealthy.”

          The only one constantly criticizing all the time is YOU.

          Go find something better to do with your time.

        • Champ says

          Jun 9, 2015 at 9:08 pm

          Mo wrote:

          The only one constantly criticizing all the time is YOU.

          Go find something better to do with your time.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Indeed, Mo!

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 10:39 am

          HI voegelinian,
          Robert Spencer: ” I am not “anti-Islam.” ”
          That was from 2007, and not a great choice of words at that time. I think Robert Spencer has sharpened his rhetoric over the last 8 years.

          Regardless, you have failed to demonstrate “Jihad Watch is not “against Islam””

          What JW is and is not is evidenced by what is published continually, which is obviously very much “against Islam” and is easily seen as being “against Islam” by friend and foe alike.

          Forgive me for not responding to the rest of your statements, my eyes glaze over easily when subjected to long listings of spaced out gibberish.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 12:04 pm

          To Stardusty Psyche- Let me ask you a personal question, which you don’t have to answer! Let me say that you believed in a religion which I will call “QRS” and one of the core doctrines of “QRS” was to kill people who didn’t believe in “QRS”. However, many believers of “QRS” ignored that core doctrine and would never kill anyone. Would you blame non-“QRS” people for hating the religion of “QRS”? The non-“QRS” people did not hate the “QRS” people and did nothing bad to them, but just hated their religion. Often, people cannot separate these 2 concepts.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 12:45 pm

          Hi Linde,
          Interestingly framed hypothetical. Both Judaism and Islam could be QRS.

          But fundamentalist Judaism is only threatening people in a very small part of the world and has no aspirations of global holy war or global conquest.

          Fundamentalist Islam, on the other hand, seeks to suicidally kill, capture, or convert the entire population of the Earth…an extremely dangerous ideology indeed..

          “Would you blame non-“QRS” people for hating the religion of “QRS”? The non-“QRS” people did not hate the “QRS” people and did nothing bad to them, but just hated their religion”

          But what is “their religion”?

          Most Christians ignore many of the teachings of Christ. What is “their religion”? Is it the teachings of Christ as written in the New Testament, or is it the set of beliefs the practitioners actually hold and abide by?

          “their religion” is whatever “they” actually believe and practice, in my view. Each individual retains the prerogative to believe and practice whatever they wish (within the law).

          So, it would be unfair to blame the people of a modified QRS for all the tenets of fundamentalist QRS when they do not actually adhere to those tenets. That would be a kind of straw man fallacy.

          I prefer terms such as “fundamentalist Islam” or “Muhammadan” or “textual Islam” or “Qur’anic Islam” because the term “Islam” by itself means so many different things to different people.

          When Robert Spencer talks about Islam he typically means fundamentalist Islam, the Islam as it appears in the texts of Muhammad. It seems reasonable to me that Islam is, at base, whatever Muhammad said and did.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 2:06 pm

          To Stardusty Psyche- Thank you for your prompt reply. I agree with you about the tenets of beliefs that whatever an individual believes and holds dear to his/her heart, plus I will add the One they worship, is their religion. I recall in one of your previous posts that you said you had no religion. (But I bet you believe in a code of behaviors to help you live your life as best as you can.) I do not hate Muslims, but I do hate Islam, and I laugh when I hear someone like Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR call me a hater. Have a good weekend.

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 1:49 pm

          ”But fundamentalist Judaism is only threatening people in a very small part of the world…”

          The obamabot, ‘stardusty psyche’ favouring us again with one of his nasty little digs at Jews, and Israel. Israel, the only democracy in the ME, and on the frontline of the jihad, who has to defend herself every single day, against the rabid muslims who want to destroy her, and murder all her citizens. How **dare** Israel fight back !

          Are all obama-democrats anti-Semites and anti-Israel ? Do they all believe in the ‘pooor palestinians’ nonsense ? Or is ‘stardusty psyche’ just an extremely stupid example ? I think this ‘pooor palestinians’ nonsense, and the concomitant ‘anti-zionist’ stance is nothing more than the usual Jew hatred, jealousy of vibrant Israel, dressed up in an attempt to be respectable. Blech.

          I ask if ‘stardusty psyche’ is a typical example of an obama-democrat, because as a UK citizen, I’m not completely au fait with American politics.

          Am Yisrael Chai !

        • Stadusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 2:25 pm

          Hi Mirren10,
          Apparently you are also not au fait with Moses, Joshua and Likud.
          Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of territorial ambitions.
          Likud and Hamas are the same in their claim to divine right of genocide found in their respective holy books, except that Moses and Joshua were even worse than Muhammad in some details.
          Likud, unlike Hamas, has modified the genocidal instructions of its holy books such that they now seek to murder the minimum number of people necessary to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan, whereas Hamas still wants to kill every Jew in addition to stealing all the land from the Sea to the Jordan.

          Yes, I know it is very stupid of me to read the Jewish texts, Islamic texts, Likud texts, and Hamas texts and draw comparisons based on factual analysis of the written word, pardonne-moi s’il vous plaît.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 2:51 pm

          Hi Linde,
          You just said you hate Islam, so, by your own words you are indeed a hater!

          I believe you said you are a Christian, aren’t you supposed to love your enemy?

          “…don’t hate nothin at all except hatred…” (It’s Alright Ma)

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 5:04 pm

          To Stardusty Psyche- This is my opinion: when Jesus said “love your enemies” He was referring to people. An enemy is a foe, adversary or opponent who can harm, injure or kill you or another person. I don’t believe Jesus was referring to ideologies. And if He was referring to ideologies, then I am guilty of disobeying my Lord, because I do hate Islam. Does that mean I am not a “Christian” in your eyes? ‘Fess up, I want to know! The robot-men monsters of ISIS hate me because I am a Christian, but they dont even know me. And ISIS makes no distinction between the person and the ideology. Very primitive thinking, indeed. Jesus also said “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and render unto God that which is God’s.” So people have no excuse not to pay taxes, government loopholes the exception! Lastly, what did you mean at the end when you wrote “It’s All Right Ma”. If that is a song, I am not familiar with it. Peace out.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 5:44 pm

          Sorry Linde if you thought I was calling you Ma! I didn’t think about that, silly me.

          Yes, it is a Bob Dylan song
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xaghku0olPI

          Well, as brilliant as I am even I cannot claim to know the mind of god, so if you consider hatred of an ideology ok by omission of its specific mention in the gospels, fine, I have no evidence once way or the other.

          Are you a Christian in my eyes? “Christian” means different things to different people. You are probably whatever kind of Christian you say you are. Most Christians reject at least some of the plain teachings of Christ such as that pesky rich man/camel/needle thing and giving a thief double, and submitting to your husband, and turning the other cheek and loving your enemies…

          Hate is generally a painful emotion for the hater and the hated. You can try to separate the ideology from the individual, but does that mean you love Muhammad too? Maybe, but not many Christians would share that sentiment.

          I am not immune to the experience of any emotion, including hate, but it is something I generally try to let go of in all respects, including ideologies. Islam is an extremely dangerous and wrong doctrine in my view…I would not call that hate so much as strong opposition.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 8:25 pm

          To Stardusty Psyche- You did not give me your opinion of me as a Christian, so I will interpret that as you being non-commital. With respect to the tenets of Christianity that you listed, some are more easily attained than others, in my opinion. The tenet of the camel going through the eye of the needle, and giving the thief double, illustrates how Christians must not be seduced by blatant materialism. The one about submitting to your husband was in reference to husbands and wives sexually satisfying each other, and no person in their right mind could find fault with that. The tenet about turning the other cheek means, in my interpretation, don’t be a sensitive ninny, and look the other way or pardon someone who insults you. It does not mean that anyone has the right to hurt or kill a Christian. The “love thine enemies” is so excellent because Jesus is saying “show kindness, tenderness and care to those who would hurt you” but it doesn’t mean “let them slaughter you”. And Muslims believe they must be harsh with their enemies, but good to other Muslims, which is in direct conflict with this one of Jesus’ statements: “For what does it profit you if you are good to only those who are good to you?” And I hate Islam because it is so unjust and full of narcissistic nonsense. Opposition to Islam is not strong enough. Finally, I am not familiar with the Bob Dylan song “It’s All Right Ma” even though I have several favorites of his, including “Rainy Day Women”. Ciao.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 12, 2015 at 3:54 pm

          Hi Mirren10,
          Apparently you are also not completely au fait with Moses, Joshua, and Likud.
          Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of territorial ambitions.
          Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of divine instructions for genocide in their respective holy books, except that the Jewish texts are worse than the Islamic texts in a few details.
          Likud, unlike Hamas, has altered its ways relative to the original instructions to genocide and only wishes to murder the minimum number necessary to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan, unlike Hamas who still want to murder all the Jews plus steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan.

          Yes, I know it is stupid to read the texts of Judaism, Islam, Likud, and Hamas and analyze them based on the written word,
          pardon moi s’il vous plaît.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 12:33 am

          Hi Linde,
          Based on your latest post about your views of Christianity I have more evidence of your views such that I can begin to form some opinions and be less non-committal.

          In my opinion your views of Christianity are very analogous to the views of Mohammedan doctrine held by the great majority of Muslims. You do not seem to be carefully reading the texts and taking them at face value, rather, you seem to be superimposing your own intrinsic humanitarian concepts onto texts that do no say what you wish they said.

          So, like the vast majority of Muslims do with the Qur’an, I now say you are buffet or watered down Christian.

          A critical difference between watering down Christ and watering down Muhammad is that Christ was a radical pacifist and Muhammad was radically violent. To water down Christ is move away from radical pacifism toward a more realistic approach to the harsh realities of life. To water down Muhammad is to move away from extreme violence toward a humane social existence.

          You say “The tenet of the camel going through the eye of the needle, and giving the thief double, illustrates how Christians must not be seduced by blatant materialism.”
          Jesus said “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven” and “whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either”
          So, Jesus says rich men will not go to heaven and you should give even more if something has been taken from you. Sorry Linde, your position waters down those instructions.

          You say “The tenet about turning the other cheek means, in my interpretation, don’t be a sensitive ninny, and look the other way or pardon someone who insults you”
          Jesus said “Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also”
          So, Jesus said to let people hit you, but you have watered that down.

          You say “The “love thine enemies” is so excellent because Jesus is saying “show kindness, tenderness and care to those who would hurt you” but it doesn’t mean “let them slaughter you””
          Jesus said “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”
          So, Jesus had a message of universal love, for your neighbor, your enemies, all. Do you pray for those who persecute?

          You said “The one about submitting to your husband was in reference to husbands and wives sexually satisfying each other, and no person in their right mind could find fault with that.”
          Paul said “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
          So, my friend, I am sorry to say, you have watered down this teaching enormously. Your husband is the head of you. You are to submit to your husband in everything. The relationship of submission to your husband is analogous to the submission of your husband to the Lord. Your husband is thus your Lord.

          That last one is a particularly bitter pill to swallow, isn’t it, my friend?

          How do Christians deal with such problems? Most find some way of rationalizing and watering down and morphing the true texts into something more pleasant and useful and reasonable in their actual lives.

          This is what the typical Muslim does to their objectionable texts also.

          Mine is a warm invitation to the embrace of reason, rationality, and human solidarity of an atheistic humanist worldview. Rid yourself of these ancient myths and we will all be so much better off.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 12:40 pm

          To Stardusty Psyche- Thank you for your most recent comments. I do enjoy reading what you have to state, even though I don’t agree with all your points. Yes, I do pray for those who persecute me and others. I call out ISIS, Boko Haram, and other creepy Muslim groups who enjoying beheading Christians and Muslims as though they are slicing off the tops of pineapples. I ask God to stop them dead in their tracks or convert them all to Jesus Christ, and I believe He can do it. I believe God is mysterious and “His ways are not our ways.” I have committed sins, and am sorry for them. I pray that God forgives my sins, and I pray to forgive others, and they forgive me. Forgiveness prevents bad behaviors from destroying your heart. I also believe the husband is the head of the household, but having been married twice, I can tell you that certain men do not want to be in the position of “Head of house” and defer to their wives, while other men take “Head of house” to mean “almost a dictator”. Sometimes there is no happy medium on this point! Lastly, Martin Luther (who was not without his faults) made a very powerful statement when he said “Interpret the Bible.” I don’t believe for a second that God created us to suffer or even take another’s abuse, because Jesus Christ, as the scapegoat of humanity, did that for us. And we live vicariously in Him. And there is much more to state, but I will close by quoting Jesus two times: “Deny thyself” which to me means don’t be a narcissist, don’t trust in human nature, trust God; and “Whoever offers a cup of cold water, in my name, to one who thirsts, will not lose his reward.” Peace to you.

        • ECAW says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 6:28 am

          SP – I, too, am not a believer but I do not knock Christianity because a counter religious ideology is a handy thing to have in your armoury when Islam comes knocking . We in Europe are easy meat compared to America because most of us don’t believe in anything any more (and we don’t have guns either).

          That aside, most of us are here because we seek ways to actively oppose the spread of Islam. Are you here for that reason too or are you just here to chew the fat?

          By the way, I strongly disagree with you that Islam is what Muslims say it is (hope I’m not misquoting you there). In the case of Islam, Allah defined it himself in no uncertain terms (“This day I have perfected for you your religion…” etc).

          Are Ahmaddiya who deny that Mohammed was the final prophet Muslims? I’d say they’re a bit borderline. What if you came upon a group who claimed that Allah was part of a trinity and called themselves Muslims? What if I said I believe in all religions as equally imperfect ways to God (I’m quite willing to do so so as to make the issue un-hypothetical)?

          As you can see, if I was a Muslim I’d probably go in for a bit of takfir.

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 10:32 am

          ‘stardusty psyche’ says;

          ”Paul said “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
          So, my friend, I am sorry to say, you have watered down this teaching enormously. Your husband is the head of you. You are to submit to your husband in everything. The relationship of submission to your husband is analogous to the submission of your husband to the Lord. Your husband is thus your Lord.

          That last one is a particularly bitter pill to swallow, isn’t it, my friend?”

          If ‘stardusty psyche’ is going to quote from the Bible, he should quote in **full**, not selectively.

          Ephesians goes on to say;

          ”Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
          Ephesians 5:22

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 11:20 am

          Hi Mirren10,
          Indeed, the Christian model of marriage is that the husband is a benevolent dictator, a king who loves his subjects and rules them with compassion, as the trinity loves and rules man.

          There is no modern notion of equality in marriage to be found in the texts of Christianity. The man is the head of the woman, and the woman is not the head of the man.

          Jesus, in all his his loving goodness and power is Lord of man. Man is to emulate Jesus and be Lord of woman. Woman is to emulate man and submit to her Lord as man submits to his Lord.

          Here is the chain of command, top to bottom
          Jesus
          Man
          Woman

          And everybody loves everybody within that authority structure. That is the Christian model indeed.

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 11:30 am

          ‘stardusty psyche’ says;

          ”Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of territorial ambitions.
          Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of divine instructions for genocide in their respective holy books, except that the Jewish texts are worse than the Islamic texts in a few details.
          Likud, unlike Hamas, has altered its ways relative to the original instructions to genocide and only wishes to murder the minimum number necessary to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan, unlike Hamas who still want to murder all the Jews plus steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan”

          ”Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of territorial ambitions”

          In fact, Likud seeks to protect the Jewish State.

          The Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are the realisation of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, and it is vitally important for the defence of Israel.

          I see nothing wrong with that. Judea and Samaria are historically part of **Israel**.

          Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and also claim Jerusalem, as belonging to Israel. Jerusalem is, and should be internationally recognised as such, the **historical capital of Israel**.

          ”Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of divine instructions for genocide in their respective holy books, except that the Jewish texts are worse than the Islamic texts in a few details.”

          Yep, damn those Amalikites ! Except, of course, the Old Testament is **descriptive**, not **prescriptive** as the koran is, and the smiting of the Amalikites describes an historical event.

          The koran, however, is entirely **prescriptive**, and moreover, to pious mahoundians, is the unchanging, eternal word of ‘allah’, hence commands to destroy the Jews and the land of Israel, hold true for the past, today, and in the future.

          ”Likud, unlike Hamas, has altered its ways relative to the original instructions to genocide and only wishes to murder the minimum number necessary to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan, unlike Hamas who still want to murder all the Jews plus steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan”’

          Since 1948, Israel has had to fight to defend herself, and ensure her survival. Israel has been continually attacked by muslims, desirous of destroying it. When has Israel ever **instigated** war with her neighbours ? Never. When Israel was pressured into leaving Gaza in 2005, with the assurance of the rest of the world that this would placate the ‘palestinians’, and guarantee peace, what happened ? Hamas destroyed all the greenhouses Israel left for them, and proceeded to use Gaza as a jumping point for constant rocket attacks against Israel. Hamas has also used the aid sent by the foolish rest of the world, including **Israeli aid**, not to create a viable infrastructure, but to build luxury hotels and mansions for the Hamas elite, and to build **tunnels to infiltrate and destroy Israel**.

          A ‘two state solution’ would be simply signing Israel’s death warrant.

          Bibi has neither endorsed, nor ruled out, the idea of a palestinian state, but has quite rightly insisted this must come with conditions, one of course being that muslims cease and desist from defaming and attempting to destroy Israel.

          What has been the Hamas response to that ?

          The May 2014 Likud Constitution is still committed to the strengthening of Jewish setlement in Judea and Samaria ( Good), but doesn’t explicitly rule out the establishment of a palestinian state. (**Not** good).

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 12:11 pm

          “”Likud and Hamas are the same in terms of territorial ambitions”
          In fact, Likud seeks to protect the Jewish State.”
          False dichotomy. Likud is both stealing land and protecting Israel.

          “The Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are the realisation of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, and it is vitally important for the defence of Israel.
          I see nothing wrong with that. Judea and Samaria are historically part of **Israel**.”
          California is historically part of Mexico, so by that logic it is OK for Mexico to steal California. Californians would see something wrong with that as do Palestinians see something wrong with having their land stolen. I realize you are too blind to see…

          “When has Israel ever **instigated** war with her neighbours ?”
          Every time it steals land in Palestine by building a settlement, archeological site, firing zone, military base, Israeli only road, wall, and agricultural development. Invasion and land theft is an act of war. Here is a detailed map of that war of conquest perpetrated by Israel
          https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/westbank_2014_final.pdf

          “The May 2014 Likud Constitution is still committed to the strengthening of Jewish setlement in Judea and Samaria”
          Indeed, Likud remains committed to the theft of Palestinian land, an act of aggressive war of conquest, while squeezing the present inhabitants of the stolen land into ever smaller apartheid Bantustans separated by police state travel restrictions.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 2:14 pm

          To Mirren10- I am in awe of your command of so many facts, and your ability to respond so logically and so eloquently to JW commenters who bring up points that I just am not able to answer. I’m proud of you, teacher! I will be taking a break from writing comments for a short period of time, as I have various tasks that must get done. Take good care and be safe. God bless you and yours. xo

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 12:43 pm

          Hi ECAW,
          You Europeans don’t believe in anything anymore? Maybe you should review some of history’s greatest thinkers, so many being European. You don’t need theism to have a value system, in fact, theism is typically a detriment to humanistic values.

          I have various motives for posting, I will repost them here for you:
          1. Raise the level of debate on Islam. So many bloggers here go on ridiculous tirades about Muslims full of cursing, preposterous generalizations, and obvious ignorance about the content of the texts. The average JW poster sounds like an ignorant ass and that gives we more serious anti-theists a bad reputation by unfair but somewhat inevitable association.

          2. Hone my ability to expect and respond to the malformed arguments of theists condemning theists.

          3. Learn a few things from time to time. On rare occasions somebody here will actually make a cogent point I had not considered or convey some useful information I was not aware of.

          4. I enjoy hearing myself talk…I have a beguiling wit, don’t you agree ?-)

          (that last one is a bit of sarcasm directed at my many detractors here…)

          Fundamentalist religion is defined by the texts of that religion. For individuals, their lived experience of what they call Islam or Christianity is whatever watered down whitewashed superficial re-interpretation they choose to live by.

          The Ahmaddiya have taken whitewash to a pinnacle of deception by re-writing the Qur’an. Here they leave out the critical word “beat” (as in wife)
          http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=196&region=EN
          here is the real version
          http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

          But surly it is not as hopeless as we despair of. There is a growing anti-immigration sentiment in Europe. People are waking up. You Europeans have survived centuries of warfare and devastation, it’s a bit early to be throwing in the towel, don’t you think?

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 1:10 pm

          ‘stardusty psyche’ says;

          ”False dichotomy. Likud is both stealing land and protecting Israel.”

          A false dichotomy, is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option.

          I wonder what additional option he considers Likud to have ?

          ”California is historically part of Mexico, so by that logic it is OK for Mexico to steal California.”

          California was annexed as a result of the defeat of Mexico in the American-Mexican War.

          If Mexico went to war with America again, and won back California, then yes, they would be entitled to keep it.

          No doubt ‘stardusty psyche’ also considers Israel should hand back all territory gained as a result winning the agressive wars against her, perpetrated by muslims.

          “When has Israel ever **instigated** war with her neighbours ?”
          ”Every time it steals land in Palestine by building a settlement, archeological site, firing zone, military base, Israeli only road, wall, and agricultural development. Invasion and land theft is an act of war.”

          See above. ‘stardusty psyche’ evidently sees no difference between an aggressor, and a defender. If muslims hadn’t gratuitously started the 1967 War, does he think Israel would have aggressively, and for no reason, attacked *them* ? Israel was far too busy building a vibrant, economically successful state. In 1967, Israel **defended** herself, and gained territory, but ‘stardust psyche’ thinks she should have just meekly handed it back.

          “The May 2014 Likud Constitution is still committed to the strengthening of Jewish setlement in Judea and Samaria”
          Indeed, Likud remains committed to the theft of Palestinian land, an act of aggressive war of conquest, while squeezing the present inhabitants of the stolen land into ever smaller apartheid Bantustans separated by police state travel restrictions.

          ” … the theft of Palestinian land, an act of aggressive war of conquest.”

          In actuality, Israel was attacked in an aggressive war, not just of conquest, but a war dedicated to wiping out Israel and every last Jew. Thankfully, Israel didn’t just win, but wiped the floor with her aggressors.

          “Israel won the war – after they were attacked by Arab nations. In the real world, winners win – and even when the Jews win, they keep the land.” Ronn Torossian

          ” … squeezing the present inhabitants of the stolen land into ever smaller apartheid Bantustans …”

          Anything that happens to the muslims in Gaza is perpetrated against them by their own ‘government’.

          ” … separated by separated by police state travel restrictions”’.

          Damn right. muslims have attempted entry into Israel in order to blow themselves up, attack and murder Israeli citizens, blow up little girls going to a bat mitzvah on a bus, and many, many more examples. But, according to wicked fools like ‘stardusty psyche’, Israel must never be allowed to defend herself, and whenever she does so, that is described as ‘police state travel restrictions’

          Of course, Israel should just let in all the murderous mohammedans who want to attack her. Idiot.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 13, 2015 at 3:04 pm

          Hi Mirren10
          “A false dichotomy, is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option.”
          Indeed, you offered a dichotomy between
          Israel (led by Likud) stealing land
          and
          Israel defending itself.
          I say there is at least this additional option
          “Likud is both stealing land and protecting Israel.”

          “I wonder what additional option he considers Likud to have ?”
          That wasn’t part of my original attribution of false dichotomy but it is closely related and very important, so I say in answer that Likud has the option of ending its settlement program. Further, many Jewish Israeli citizens and Israel loyal Jews around the world agree with me.

          “If Mexico went to war with America again, and won back California, then yes, they would be entitled to keep it.”
          By that logic if Arabs go to war with Israel and they win the territory of Israel they would be entitled to keep it.
          The present inhabitants of California do not agree with your “logic”.
          The present inhabitants of Israel do not agree with your “logic”.
          The present inhabitants of Palestine do not agree with your “logic”.

          “See above. ‘stardusty psyche’ evidently sees no difference between an aggressor, and a defender. If muslims hadn’t gratuitously started the 1967 ”
          Since 1967 Israel has been the aggressor into Gaza and the West Bank via their settlement and land theft invasions. Israel continues on its land theft aggressions and Likud is dedicated to not stopping until they have stolen it all from the Sea to the Jordan…stolen it all from the present inhabitants of Palestine Likud has not already robbed.

          SP-“” … squeezing the present inhabitants of the stolen land into ever smaller apartheid Bantustans …”
          M10-Anything that happens to the muslims in Gaza is perpetrated against them by their own ‘government’.”
          The apartheid Bantustans operated by Israel today with police state travel restrictions are detailed here:
          https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/westbank_2014_final.pdf

          SP-“” … separated by separated by police state travel restrictions”’.
          M10-“Damn right. muslims have attempted entry into Israel”
          A nation has every right to police its own borders. Israel goes outside its borders to restrict travel between the apartheid Bantustans it operates here:
          https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/westbank_2014_final.pdf

          “wicked fools like ‘stardusty psyche’, Israel must never be allowed to defend herself,..” Idiot.”
          Thank you for that incisive and totally fair characterization of my positions and cognitive capacities.

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 6:23 am

          Hi, Linde, thank you for your kind words and thoughts, they are much appreciated.

          Re ‘ stardusty psyche’, with people like that, *no amount* of facts, or points of logic, will avail to convince, since they prefer to wallow in their hatred of Israel, and snivel about ‘the pooor palestinians’.

          ‘stardusty’ is a rabid anti-Semite, but overt anti-Semitism is no longer considered acceptable, so people like that camouflage it in a pretty new dress, called ‘anti-zionism, and crocodile tears for the ‘pooor palestinians’.

          The ‘palestinians’ could have had their own state, many times over, but they have, since the Oslo Accords, rejected this in favour of carrying on the vendetta against Israel.

          I don’reply to the vapourings of such as he, in order to convince *him*, but for the benefit of others, and in order to slam the myth of the ‘pooor palestinians’.

          Keep well, my fellow teacher retiree, and do start commenting again, when you have more time. Xo.

        • ECAW says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 6:49 am

          “I don’reply to the vapourings of such as he, in order to convince *him*, but for the benefit of others, and in order to slam the myth of the ‘pooor palestinians’.”

          And much appreciated Mirren10, by someone who struggles to get to grips with the Israel situation. I know my sympathies are with them and my belief is that the Palestine stuff is largely a cover for the demented Jew hatred that goes back to Mo and his rejection as a prophet by the Jewish tribes.

          This arrived yesterday, and which I thought was good (apart from his taking Islamophobia at face value):

          http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5939/university-human-rights

        • Mirren10 says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 8:25 am

          Hi, ECAW.

          Yes, an excellent article; thank you for posting it.

          Denis MacEoin has posted here, occasionally, and I have had vehement disagreements with him, but this article is spot on re Israel. I left a comment saying so.

          ”And much appreciated Mirren10, by someone who struggles to get to grips with the Israel situation.”

          Thank you.

          Hi, Mr Jihadski !

          ”The more you engage him, the less work we do for our cause
          He is evil and you must stay away from him.”

          Well, I agree, however I do feel when pernicious idiots start with all the lies against Israel, they need to be refuted; not for *his* edification, as I said, which is, of course a waste of time, but simply to set the record straight, for the benefit of others.

          And ECAW’s estimation of him is also spot on.

          Hope you’re keeping well, dear Mr Jihadski.

          I had *no Idea* you were writing a book; do keep us posted as to when it comes out, I will definitely buy it.

          Such a sad poem. It made me cry.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 11:11 am

          Hi ECAW
          “my belief is that the Palestine stuff is largely a cover for the demented Jew hatred ”
          Calling somebody an anti-Semite for opposing a particular Israeli policy makes as much sense as the charge of islamophobe for opposing fundamentalist Islam.

          Many Jewish Israeli citizens and Israel loyal Jews elsewhere are strongly opposed to the Likud settlement policy and agree that Israel has no right to steal Palestinian land as they have done and continue to do.

          All the good things said about Israel here are true.
          http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5939/university-human-rights

          There are also bad things about Israel, like for example their ongoing program of land theft.

          We can call the good things good and the bad things bad without contradiction or prejudice. Nations are complex with many parties and people doing many different things all at the same time.

        • Stardusty Psyche says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 11:19 am

          Hi Mirren10
          “however I do feel when pernicious idiots start with all the lies against Israel, they need to be refuted;”
          Fine, except I have told no lies about Israel and you have failed to refute my statements about Israel.

          Here is a map of the progress of land theft perpetrated by Israel led by Likud:
          https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/westbank_2014_final.pdf

          Do you think you can refute that? You have thus far failed to do so.

  29. Davegreybeard says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 12:56 am

    Thank you Pamela and Robert, the campaign is magnificent!

    You give heart to the fight!

    • robert bayer says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 5:07 am

      Thank you Dave but Pamela is doing maybe 100,000 times more than I am .. No comparison .. I admit when I debate someone I really go feral though ..

  30. Champ says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 1:21 am

    Bosch’s cartoon was the perfect choice for these ads …

    And the unvarnished truth is getting out there — good!

  31. No Fear says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 4:07 am

    Both Pam and Robert are among those who should be honored with their own postage stamp.

    • robert bayer says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 5:12 am

      No Fear .. thank you but Pamela and Mr. Spencer are the real warriors who are putting their lives on the line .. We can all do a bit or a lot to help though .. I have bought books by both of these freedom fighters.

      Lets support one another more and fight harder to bring the light of truth to day in a world going mad via MSM Leftists, Cr00ks, Cowards, Fools, and traitors.

    • underbed cat says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 2:36 pm

      Great Idea….or Nobel Peace Prize to Pamela, Robert, David Horowitz, and legions of former FBI, military and intelligence agents scholars who have dedicated their lives to get the truth out. against the tsunami diversity secrets.

  32. Kathleen says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 5:47 am

    I like Robert Bayer ideas!!! Show the real stuff and then maybe the sleeping Americans will GET IT!!!!

    • robert bayer says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 6:00 am

      Thank you Kathleen and our deep thanks to Mr. Spencer and Ms. Geller whose selfless courage is starting to wake Americans up to the growing Islamic dangers that can destroy us all, which is just what Obama and fellow evil goons want.

      We have to show Americans what is happening because the MSM is NOT just not showing the barbaric behavior of Islam but in fact is doing all it can to NOT show these horrors and yet to instead weaken and misrepresent the real protectors of America, such as our police and soldiers and citizen freedom fighters such as Geller and Spencer.

  33. Thank Disqus seems to be taking longer than usual. Reload? says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 9:43 am

    Thank you Pam and Robert for all this good work.INFORM INFORM INFORM

  34. Rklutzke says

    Jun 9, 2015 at 11:15 am

    Why 1st target St. Louis, when Dearborn Michigan is almost already under shuria law?

    • gravenimage says

      Jun 9, 2015 at 1:14 pm

      This is not AFDI’s first billboard campaign. They have had ads up in New York, San Francisco, Kansas City, and other cities.

  35. robert bayer says

    Jun 12, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    Sorry to forget you Angemon …

    Angemon wrote: It’s not GI’s premise, it’s the premise used by islamic apologists and sympathizers alike.

    RESPONSE: So are you saying that GI is one of the Islamic apologists and sympathizer? Or excusing him? Or saying I am? Or wanting to make it look like I am?

    I stand by what I stated. If GI condemns me for wanting to show Islamic atrocities first and foremost, then he is supporting those who condemn AFDI because they would also be against showing these atrocities.

    • Angemon says

      Jun 13, 2015 at 3:34 pm

      robert bayer posted:

      “Angemon wrote: It’s not GI’s premise, it’s the premise used by islamic apologists and sympathizers alike.

      RESPONSE: So are you saying that GI is one of the Islamic apologists and sympathizer? Or excusing him? Or saying I am? Or wanting to make it look like I am?”

      No, I’m saying that the premise you wrongly attributed to GI is not her POV. Anything you derived from that wrong assertion is faulty by design. GI did not condemn anything done by the AFDI.

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 13, 2015 at 11:11 pm

        Angemon wrote: So? Have you changed your hobbyhorse? Have you grew tired of your “why no mention of the event in Phoenix” diatribes and now you’re changing your tune? Well, it doesn’t really change all that much – you always seem to have an axe to grind with Robert, as if you can do what he does better than him. It doesn’t help that many, if not all, of your “criticism” (and here again, you’re all for criticism as long as you’re the one criticizing, not the one being criticized) are either misunderstandings on your side or something that would be easily dispelled on a conversation in good faith, which is something you’ve showed over and over that you simply won’t have, for whatever reason known only to you.
        Now, about that hobbyhorse…

        RESPONSE: Angemonger, What happened in Phoenix is that the MSM showed a bunch of nice Muslims at the Mosque standing patiently while the protest did nothing but prove if the protest is NOT about a protesting any evil, then those who are speaking out for freedom of speech WITHOUT explaining WHY will be demonized, and thus helping the cause of the Islamic Supremacists. Is that your goal as well? Go back to your hobbyhorse and may you find true love eternal or whatever you are in a pseudo-intellectual manner badly trying to portray yourself.
        So anyone who makes an important point about a serious issue as well as clearly explains why “has an axe to grind?” LOL .. Yeah .. you really a one intellectual kind of hobbyhorse guy! 

        • Angemon says

          Jun 14, 2015 at 6:00 am

          Your mean-spirited, irrelevant, diatribe won’t change one single thing: the premise you wrongly attributed to GI is not her POV. Anything you derived from that wrong assertion is faulty by design. GI did not condemn anything done by the AFDI. Your attempt to discredit a long-time, respected regular is as laughable now as it was before.

          Oddly enough, ignoring facts and ham-fisting petty insults is how islamic supremacists and their apologists act (especially their less educated, mouth breathing, knuckle-dragging fustilarians) – and here on JW they’ve often targeted the same people you’re targeting. Either you’re a very confused individual with a poor grasp of logic and a 3-second attention span who accidentally and consistently attacks the people he should be siding with or you’re an islamic weasel on CJ clothing. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt because I don’t automatically attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity but, for all intents and purposes, it’s a distinction without a difference.

  36. robert bayer says

    Jun 13, 2015 at 11:42 pm

    Mirren10 WRITES: No, she didn’t. graven was pointing out to you that under sharia, any depiction of mohammed is blasphemy, punishable by death. Thus, the Bosch Fawstin cartoon of mohammed **defies** that sharia ruling, showing the mohammedans we refuse to bow to their ridiculous and obscene laws. The fact you seem unable to grasp this elemental point, speaks volumes as to your abilities to comprehend what has been said. The fact that you fail to grasp this is an essential point, free speech, tells me your interest in maintaining it is actually pretty low.

    RESPONSE: No, Mirren00, the fact is that IT IS YOU who cannot understand a simple idea. For it is you are objecting to anyone using Mohammed cartoons to protest Islamic atrocities and yet for someone who claims to be a fighting against Sharia, that is a very dubious position. This sharing of ideas would be more interesting if you simply could grasp that and disagree with real arguments. But in effect what you are stating is because I make the suggestion that the cartoons include real evils to protest, you disingenuously and falsely claim that somehow I am attacking free speech.

    In fact you are advocating a strategy that will take attention away from the evils of Islam and will make less clear why there is even a need to protest.

    Mirren10 WRITES Yep. Because you deserve it. I suggest you read graven’s posts again. *Nowhere* does she use insulting or denigrating language to you, as you have gratuitously done to her, merely because she disagreed with your points, and pointed out why she disagrees with them. As I said, only oafs ( in which I include islamoapologists, muslims and leftists, and yourself) respond to reasoned criticism and disagreement with diatribes such as you have treated us to. ‘Nobility’ ? What does that have to do with anything ? Every word you write merely underlines your determined obtuseness.

    RESPONSE: Yes, it is quite insulting because at no point does she argue with an ounce of communicative cooperation where you fairly state what the other person has stated and then respond to it. She keeps claiming that I am against showing the Mohammed cartoon when in fact I have repeated that I am. Instead, just like you are doing, all you keep droning on about is how my position is that the fight for freedom of speech to Sharia is to be abandoned. I have not advocated that. I have stated go ahead and keep the damn Mohammed cartoons but protest REAL ISLAMIC HORRORS so people will know what you are fighting against. Let’s watch again as you post a reply that once again ignores their plight!

    So once again you are a hypocrite because somehow you are allowed to insult others but I am not? But go ahead and insult me! You are so ineptly bad at it that I actually laugh when I see them. 

    You seem to think that the thousands of cases of Islamic victims being raped, murdered, burned alive and mutilated do NOT deserve to have a voice speaking out for them. I find your approach to be one of extreme ignorance and callousness for those good people whose lives were ruined or destroyed by these monsters. You would rather attack someone who would like us all to speak up for them! How mindless and heartless is that?! Don’t worry! I don’t expect you to get this no matter how many times I bluntly state it. You are an elitist do-nothing know-nothing who also is arguably weighted down with an extremely feeble intellect. You are a funny duck, you have to admit that! 

    The Islamic Supremacists are applauding your approach! So is the MSM and the Obama WH. They thank you for wanting to make the whole world thing that the real problem is not being allowed to draw a cartoon. Now like a mindless parrot, go ahead and repost the same garbage claiming that I do not want Mohammed cartoons shown and will capitulate to Sharia even though I am stating that Mohammed cartoons should be used but used to protest real horrors.

    Mirren10 WRITES : Your ‘argument’ if one chooses to describe it as such, is that Bosch Fawstin’s cartoon, underlining the fact that non-muslims refuse to bow to sharia rulings, is a pointless waste of time, which will only enrage muslims, and instead, the AFDI should be producing posters decrying muslim atrocities. As graven politely indicated to you, this has been done many times; the ”#this is my jihadwhatsyours” response to CAIR’s attempts to whitewash jihad is a case in point, as are the posters underlining the koranic sanctification of anti-Semitism. This is not to say it shouldn’t be done again, and in fact, no-one *is* saying that, your criticism on this point is a silly red herring. So, in what way are my points ‘an imitation of Leftists and islamic supremacists’ ?

    RESPONSE: No .. you are absolutely wrong, as always, tee hee. The AFDI has NOT been publishing Mohammed Cartoons on city buses and billboards that protest specific evils of Islam. Where are they? HAHA.

    You are confusing things as always. They have protested specific evils. They have published Mohammed cartoons but they have never done both together, which is what I am suggesting is superior to just publishing images of Mohammed. Don’t you feel silly now?

    Mirren00, you wouldn’t know a red herring if you ate it as sushi. My suggestion has never been tried before by the AFDI so how is what I am suggesting a distracting ‘red herring?’

    Rather, the responses of Graven Grasping and Mirren00 are the epitome of what a red herring. Get a dictionary yourself.

    Glad you asked about the posts of yours and of Graven Grasping actually resembling those of leftists (continually misrepresenting the arguments of others) and Islamic supremacists (seeking to cover up Islamic atrocities). Certainly you continue to cling to the false representation that I am against showing Mohammed cartoons (I am not if they are protesting an Islamic crime against humanity) and as of this time, you do not seem to think much about the raped and murdered of Islam deserving to have their victimhood protested. You so very nonchalantly believe that “Oh, that’s already been done. No need to do that anymore!” My un-dear Ms. Mirren00, while we have been debating this, hundreds more have had their lives destroyed. What is more important that getting the world to see these horrors rather than to NOT see them!? Nazi Germany would have welcomed your attitude with great glee.

    Mirren00 wrote: graven enunciated no fallacies, nor did she misrepresent anything you said. She merely disagreed with you, and said why. But oafs like you respond to disagreement with a vomitous outpouring of bile and rage. Hmm. Very interesting.

    RESPONSE: Actually yes, she did, O Disingenuous One. Graven Grasping at Straws overgeneralizes my argument by claiming that I am advocating that Mohammed should not be shown in a cartoon when what I am really recommending is that Mohammed be shown in cartoons that protest things like gays being murdered or child marriages. You did the same uncouth dishonest thing. So no .. she did more than just disagree with me, she misrepresented what I stated.

    Mirren00, your 6th grade teacher just called to warn you to not insult others using words like an “OAF” because it just makes you look like a hypocrite.

    Mirren00 wrote: Do you understand the meaning of the word, hypocrisy ? Where does graven, or myself, say anything hypocritical ? Get a dictionary.

    RESPONSE: Mirren000, GET A LIFE 😀 ! Obviously if you blame me for using rude language, while seemingly defending the butchers of Islam (you don’t want their crimes directly protested for some god forsaken reason) while using it yourself, then yes, Mirren00, that makes you a hypocrite and so it is you, not I, that need a dictionary to look up the word “hypocrite.”

    Mirren00 wrote: Well, you certainly have no need to ‘fear’ me, in any way whatsoever. I’m not going to attack you for being an ungracious oaf, except verbally. Is that what you’re afraid of? People who fear disagreement from others have a very shaky sense of self-worth; is that perhaps your problem ? The only ones you need to fear, are muslims, who will try to murder you for refusing to bow to sharia.

    RESPONSE: Mirren the Zero, I do not even fear your hypocrisy of pretending to not use insulting language while doing just. For one thing it is really lame and only makes the world laugh at you, and NOT with you. And you are once again hypocritically guilty of what you wish to smear another with, doubly so. I made a suggestion, a very logical one, and you have spent hundreds of words twisting yourself into knots trying to defend your indefensible “attack anything that moves” boorishness. So I responded in kind to G.I. and I do so now. Not a problem. Quite fun to put the village idiot in her place. Second hypocrisy? The fact that I want to shine a light on the evils of Islam, specific acts, seems to really bother you, just as it would the Islamic Monsters and their “friends.” We count you now among those friends. Nothing seems to bother you more than the idea that someone would want to put the focus on Islamic Crimes Against Humanity.

    Mirren00 wrote:That’s fine, no-one has to respect anything *I* say. You might want to remember, however, that pious muslims will happily kill *you*, for failing to respect what *they* say, and failing to respect sharia.
    Toodle pip, Jack.

    RESPONSE: To that creature, Mirren the Toodle-PiP-Jack, … So because I wish to highlight the horrific crimes of Islam, I am the one who wishes to go along with Sharia?! Do you ever think? I mean really … do you? Anyway, do enjoy your “Toodle-PiP-Jack” and please do keep posting on this topic because, it is truly fun and so easy to dismiss your nonsensical, hypocritical posts that seem bent on disguising the evils of Islam rather than exposing them. 😉

    • Mirren10 says

      Jun 14, 2015 at 8:52 am

      ‘bayer’;

      ”The AFDI has NOT been publishing Mohammed Cartoons on city buses and billboards that protest specific evils of Islam. Where are they? HAHA.”

      http://freedomdefense.typepad.com/fdi/my-jihad.html

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 6:38 am

        Oh Mirren .. I went to the link and THERE IS NO CARTOON SHOWING MOHAMMED Cartoons and ATROCITIES …
        There is Bin Laden …

        Why do you continue with these deceptions?

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 7:07 am

        Real horrific issues concerning Islam

        https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/63/14/76/63147696544e84ba54076330d325ca47.jpg

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 7:08 am

        Oh Mirren .. Real horrific issues concerning Islam

        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0KgkKCCYAAiusv.jpg

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 7:08 am

        Oh Mirren .. Real horrific issues concerning Islam

        http://www.religiousfreedomcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/MuslimChildMarriage.jpg

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 7:10 am

        Mirren .. Just keep in mind .. what I am saying is that these issues have to brought forward .. in conjunction with Mohammed cartoons but brought forward

        https://andrus.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/muslim-woman-stoned-to-death-for-adultery1.jpg

      • robert bayer says

        Jun 15, 2015 at 7:11 am

        Mirren .. there are thousands more I could post .. but you get the picture ..

        https://reclaimourrepublic.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wake-up-islam-jihad-muslim.jpg

  37. Mirren10 says

    Jun 14, 2015 at 9:20 am

    Angemon. your usage of ‘fustilarian’ is wonderful !

    ”Fustilarian comes from fustilugs, “an unattractive, grossly overweight person.” Fustilugs comes from a combination of fusty, musty or lacking freshness, and lug, “anything that moves slowly or with difficulty. – See more at: http://blog.wordnik.com/cullions-fustilarians-and-pizzles-a-short-dictionary-of-shakespearean-insults#sthash.M6W7fVfl.dpuf”

    Love it ! 🙂

    • robert bayer says

      Jun 15, 2015 at 7:06 am

      Mirren .. here are links to real horrific issues concerning Islam .. Don’t the victims of Islam deserve more support and actually even more to be noticed by the rest of the world? The MSM and the Obama Regime is doing all it can to hide these atrocities.

      https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/63/14/76/63147696544e84ba54076330d325ca47.jpg

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0KgkKCCYAAiusv.jpg

      http://www.clarionproject.org/sites/default/files/Islamic-State-Beheads-for-Witchcraft-IP.jpg

      https://i1.wp.com/www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/henning-beheaded.jpg

      https://i2.wp.com/shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/maxresdefault1-e1431323195179.jpg

      http://blocs.mesvilaweb.cat/wp-content/uploads/sites/1507/2014/12/Estat-Islamic-dones-yazidites-iraq.png

      http://www.religiousfreedomcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/MuslimChildMarriage.jpg

      http://hacknewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/wpid-http3a2f2f41-media_-tumblr-com2f634dfd4772dce9b931356b9ce64f45ae2ftumblr_nj7qch50sz1rrw7rqo7_1280.png

      https://andrus.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/muslim-woman-stoned-to-death-for-adultery1.jpg

      http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-22VmajZoHM4/UMj0gonSouI/AAAAAAAACQM/MSrhN83_RxY/s1600/Stoning-in-Iran1.jpg

      http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/27/2628691600000578-2972601-image-a-6_1425065947491.jpg

      https://i1.wp.com/cdn.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/churchFINAL-450×319.jpg?resize=350%2C200

      https://i1.wp.com/cdn.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/churchFINAL-450×319.jpg?resize=350%2C200

      http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/06/1ABEF77D00000578-0-image-a-2_1423244751835.jpg

      http://watchmen-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Obama-waives-ban-on-arming-terrorists-610×400.jpg

      http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BrlL59nCIAAATmu.jpg

      http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/us-consulate-in-benghazi-a-weigh-station-for-weapons-going-to-syria-13.5.2013-300×251.png

      https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/045-0128150541-war-cartoon.jpg

      https://reclaimourrepublic.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/obama-marine-amb-steven-benghazi.jpg

      https://reclaimourrepublic.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wake-up-islam-jihad-muslim.jpg

      https://reclaimourrepublic.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/islam-diversity-greyenigma.png?w=640

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0iOezyCQAEYSAx.jpg

      http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-16.jpg

      http://i0.wp.com/www.thelastgreatstand.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Treason-4.jpg

      http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/10/Obama-start-Islamic-empire.jpg

      http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/23561d1411065566-house-approves-arming-syrian-rebels-fight-islamic-state-bsxlkdlcuaes8w8.jpg

      https://seniorcitizenspublicsquare.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/obama-arms-alqada-and-the-behead-priest.jpg?w=584

      http://noisyroom.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/worsetreason1.jpg

      https://swordattheready.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/obamaflipsoffisrael.jpg

      http://media.cagle.com/39/2013/11/27/140731_600.jpg

      https://ulkopolitist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/iran_wmd_25.jpg

      http://www.timesexaminer.com/images/stories/Cartoon—Obama-and-Mohammed.jpg

      http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/darcy/photo/17128159-mmmain.jpg

      http://universalfreepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Pictured-Mullah-Mohammad-Fazl-Mullah-Norullah-Noori-Abdul-Haq-Wasiq-Khairullah-Khairkhwa-Mohammed-Nabi-Omari.jpg

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