Female genital mutilation “is a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.” — Reza Aslan
Oops. Wrong again, Reza, and not just about Eritrea and Ethiopia being in Central Africa.
This Al Jazeera article calls FGM a “cultural” practice, but actually it is sanctioned by Islamic law: “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) (by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the bazr ‘clitoris’ [this is called khufaadh ‘female circumcision’]).” — ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3, translated by Mark Durie, The Third Choice, p. 64
“Study reveals shocking FGM prevalence in Iran,” by Hajir Sharifi, Rudaw, July 4, 2015 (thanks to The Religion of Peace):
A new study has found the practice female genital mutilation (FGM) to be common in areas of Iran, refuting repeated government claims that the practice does not exist in the Islamic Republic.
The comprehensive report about FGM in Iran, released June 25 by Kurdish social anthropologist Kameel Ahmady, identified FGM in at least four Iranian provinces, most notably Hormozgan where nearly six out of 10 women had undergone the practice.
The rate of FGM was discovered to be 21 percent in West Azerbaijan, 18 percent in Kermanshah, and 16 percent in Kurdistan, according to field interviews and research conducted by Ahmady and his team.
The southern Hormozgan province, with a rate of 60 percent, had the highest FGM prevalence in Iran. Hormozgan province is one of the most improvised and undeveloped provinces of Iran.
In June 2014, the United Nation’s Human Rights Council in a direct letter to the Iranian government asked Iranian authorities to “accept” the existence of the practice in Iran, and take active steps to eradicate the practice in that country. Women’s rights groups have for many years condemned Tehran for trivializing or officially denying the issue.
The UN noted that Iranian Shiite authorities justified their inaction by framing FGM as a religiously sensitive issue that would cause anti-Shiite sentiment among the Sunni minority if it were banned.
Research shows the four provinces associated with FGM also have high rates of other types of violence against women, such as honor killings, child brides, forced marriage and polygamy.
“Religion is used to justify the practice by all practitioners of FGM,” the research found. Among the Sunni Muslims, a branch known as Shafi’i has the highest rate of the practice.
According to Shafi’ie faith, a woman becomes a Muslim only when she is circumcised. Although there are different interpretations of religious directives, Mohammad Rabi’ie, a distinguished cleric in Kurdistan, believes that “FGM is the Prophet Ibrahim’s tradition.”
The followers of the Shafi’ie faith believe that a woman’s sexual desire is harnessed after being cut and whatever she does subsequently become halal, or acceptable to Islam.
It is also believed by some that FGM facilitates marriage by reducing the a woman’s sexual desire and helps her to remain virtues and pious.
The recent study shows that the same religious interpretation dominates the current practice. “They usually believe that FGM was practiced during the early years of Islamic Kingdom when the Prophet’s and Imams’ wives and daughters were circumcised,” Ahmady said.
Among the Kurds in Iran, FGM is mainly practiced by Sunni Shafi’i Kurds who speak the Sorani dialect, but not among Sunni Shafie Kurds who speak the Kermanji dialect. Followers of the Sunni Hanafi sect do not follow the practice, research found.
The Kurdistan province in Iran is predominantly populated by Sunni Shafi’i but there is a Shiite religious minority.
“The prevalence of FGM in Kurdistan is patchy and varies sharply from one region to another,” the researcher said, adding that FGM is mainly practiced in rural and undeveloped areas….
Angemon says
Well, it is Al Jazeera…
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Angemon,
FGM is a cultural practice, it is also a part of Islamic law to varying extents, mostly requiring or condoning, but in some recent cases banning, It also has no clear mandate in the Qur’an or Sunnah, nor is it clearly forbidden in either. The text Spencer cites was written about 700 years after Muhammad and may very well be a case of culture making its way into law.
RA-Female genital mutilation “is a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. ”
True. Statistics show that non-Muslims in those countries also practice FGM. However, the graphic here shows that Reza intentionally chose the 2 most exceptional cases:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/guest-post-the-relationship-between-islam-and-female-genital-mutilation/
RA-” Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.
This is a blatant lie by Aslan. It is out of the question that Aslan is merely unaware of the facts.
mortimer says
Stardust wrote: “It is out of the question that Aslan is merely unaware of the facts.”
Indeed…he undoubtedly knows he misled his readers. It is a pattern of behavior in Reza Aslan to mislead or misrepresent issues by masking the reality with his strongly-worded CLAIM!
However, a claim is not a proof, but merely an unsubstantiated claim. When Aslan makes so many unsubstantiated claims on such a regular basis, his credibility goes lower and lower until it ceases to exist.
His fellow teachers, his academic managers and his students should take note. An academic should at least base his statements on demonstrable, verifiable facts…rather than make up his own facts.
Shi’ites like Aslan see TAQIYYA (sacred lying) as a morally ‘good’ thing. No Westerner thinks of TAQIYYA as morally ‘good’, but opportunism…or worse.
voegelinian says
Stardusty assumes that “culture” is distinct under the doubly totalitarian regime of Islam, as though genuinely non-Islamic “culture” can survive in the minds of Muslims and in their society.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi voegelinian
“Stardusty assumes that “culture” is distinct under the doubly totalitarian regime of Islam, as though genuinely non-Islamic “culture” can survive in the minds of Muslims and in their society.”
You are the one making the assumptions. I didn’t say that at all.
My point was simply that FGM is not solely sourced from Islamic law. Aslan managed to dig up statistics that demonstrate non-Muslims practicing FGM in 2 African countries.
voegelinian says
“Aslan managed to dig up statistics that demonstrate non-Muslims practicing FGM in 2 African countries.”
And I can dig up statistics showing people murdering for non-Islamic reasons and trying to invade in order to sabotage through sedition a free society for non-Islamic reasons. This doesn’t make murder and sedition un-Islamic.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Vogie,
Do you have some kind of specific point in response to the actual words I said?
gravenimage says
“Stardusty Psyche” wrote:
Hi Angemon,
FGM is a cultural practice, it is also a part of Islamic law to varying extents, mostly requiring or condoning, but in some recent cases banning…
……………………………….
Some Muslim-majority countries—such as Egypt in 2008—have nominally banned FGM. But the idea that it has been banned *on the basis of Islamic law* is not correct.
The fact is that of the four major schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence that three consider FGM obligatory, and the fourth—the Hanafi school—considers it to be Sunnah (preferred).
So—no Muslim nation is banning FGM on the basis of Islam.
And how are those “bans” working, in any case? Egypt banned FGM in 2008, and just had their first conviction earlier *this year*—this, in a country where *95%* of girls and women are mutilated:
“Doctor jailed after Egypt’s first FGM conviction”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/doctor-jailed-egypt-first-fgm-conviction
It took seven years to get a conviction—meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Egyptian girls have been mutilated over this period.
Reading this story, you will see that it is only incidentally about FGM—the doctor was convicted on manslaughter, since the victim died. This is really a case about malpractice. The “doctor’s” sentence? Two years and three months, and it is only the three months that apply to FGM itself.
I think it is clear that this “ban” is anything but. Just more window-dressing to convince the overly optimistic in Dar-al-Harb that Muslim nations are civilized…
quotha raven says
““Study reveals shocking FGM prevalence in Iran,” by Hajir Sharifi, Rudaw, July 4, 2015 (thanks to The Religion of Peace):”
Shocking? What’s so shocking? This whole article is hair-splitting rubbish. FGM, according to the World Health Organization (last time I checked, about a year ago) reports that “90% of women in Egypt have had FGM”.
The practice is widespread throughout Africa from Kenya to Sierra Leone and Libya to South Africa and the middle east. It is practiced by others than Muslims. It’s a tribal “custom” as well, as I learned in 1973, when I interviewed a young woman who proudly defended the custom in (then) Upper Volta now known as Burkina Faso who was from the Mossi tribe and, later, a black American ex-pat in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
The latter, horrified, told me she was the subject of amazed interest and some notoriety when she received pre-natal care (she was married to a West African politician) in Addis. The doctors and other medical personnel had NEVER SEEN AN INTACT WOMAN, so they always gathered together a curious crowd of medical workers and students to have a look when this lady went in for an exam. Creepy? She thought so.
My point is that this “cultural” custom is all over the place, widely practiced (and not only by Muslims) As a matter of fact, it is carried on through the generations BY WOMEN, who believe that an uncut woman is not eligible to be married. It is a mistake to imply this is only an Islamist custom. It is a barbaric, primitive custom deeply ingrained in mysogynistic, primitive societies, such as are found all over Africa. The real horror is that FGM is now happening in Western Europe and the USA. I’m no militant women’s rights militant, but I believe wherever and however and on whatever grounds (religious, political) it is practiced, FGM should be outlawed.The United Nations, typically, and for decades upon decades choose not to address the issue in any substantive way at all. Instead of receding or dying out, FGM is spreading into the West, with examples in NYC, NJ, Ohio, Pennsylvania, to name some familiar places…
I’m not sticking up for Islam (who are undoubtedly responsible for importing this atrocity into the USA, the UK and Europe, such as it is); I’m just sayin….Cheers! Quotha R
gravenimage says
Quotha Raven wrote:
It is a mistake to imply this is only an Islamist custom.
………………………………
I don’t believe that Robert Spencer was implying that at all, Quotha. He has many times noted that this barbarism predates Islam.
But the fact is that it is mostly practiced by Muslims world-wide, and—even more salient—is *only* defended on religious grounds under Islam. It is often Muslim clerics who are most resistant to any ban:
“Islamic cleric misunderstands Islam, says female genital mutilation is Islamic”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/islamic-cleric-misunderstands-islam-says-female-genital-mutilation-is-islamic
Robert Spencer’s headline, of course, is intended ironically with the reference to this being a “misunderstanding”.
quotha raven says
@ Gravenimage – Fair enough. I hadn’t appreciated the sardonic tone of the headline. The Mossi girl I interviewed in (then) Upper Volta in fact did not give religious justification for FGM but, rather, tribal superiority. When I asked her why other tribes carry on the tradition, she told me they were only imitating the (superior) Mossi tribe, for whom the practice was (according to her) necessary to avoid babies being born dead by brushing by the offending parts during parturition.
I wasn’t castigating Robert Spencer, our hero, but Hajir Sharifi, the writer of the quoted Al Jazeera article below his opening comments. That any entity could find religious justification for such a barbaric act is beyond malevolent, but no surprise that Islam finds the practice worthy of numerous dictates in the Surahs and Qur’an. Cheers! Quotha R .
gravenimage says
Thanks for the reply, Quotha.
And yes—I’ve heard the grotesque superstition that babies are born dead if women are not mutilated. Clearly, this is to make reluctant girls accept this barbarism.
But Islam is still a major motivating factor for the practice of FGM. Here’s Islam Q & A, the most widely read English-language Islamic website:
“That is because the purpose of circumcising a man is to make him clean from the impurity that may collect beneath the foreskin. But the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire. Hence immoral actions are more common among the women of the Tatars and the Franks, that are not found among the Muslim women….And Allaah knows best”.
http://islamqa.info/en/9412
This makes it clear—FGM is used to destroy women’s desire and pleasure, and is done so on a “religious” basis.
quotha raven says
Graven – I appreciate the link. It’s just mind-boggling that FGM is happening in the UK, USA, Europe…in the 21st Century. I feel like we are sliding into an abyss. Cheers! qr
gravenimage says
I know, Quotha—it’s horrifying.
But things *can* be done—here’s a heartening story of action by an Anti-Jihadist at Jihad Watch:
“Mayo Clinic fires doctor who said female genital mutilation is an ‘honor’ for women”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/mayo-clinic-fires-doctor-who-said-female-genital-mutilation-is-an-honor-for-women
“Longtime Jihad Watch reader CGW saw that report on Jihad Watch and sprang into action, contacting the Mayo Clinic, where Elhagaly was employed, and starting a petition…”
This shows the importance of acting in the face of evil.
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- About the doctor who was fired from the Mayo Clinic, right you are—taking a positive action to combat evil is the way to go, and I congratulate the JW poster who made that call. I get emotional when I read posts like that, because it is about the justice of it all.
Will says
FGM is endemic in Muslim-majority countries across Africa, Asia and the Middle East. Three million girls between infancy and age 15 are subject to FGM every year, and it is believed that 140 million women worldwide are suffering from the lifelong consequences of the practice.
Claims that FGM is a cultural phenomena , why is it occurring in places like Indonesia and Malaysia, FGM is absolutely not a cultural part of these Muslim majority countries the conduit , without a doubt is Islam .
Of all Western nations, Britain seems to have the most serious problem with illegal female genital mutilation, due to the large Muslim enclaves in its major cities that operate under a parallel system of sharia “justice”. Yet other countries are fast catching up with the UK. Any major urban area where the concentration of Muslim immigrants is significant enough to create no-go zones will also be likely to produce a local epidemic of FGM.
FGM is absolutely an islamic construct and islam remains the primary conduit for this file form of female subjugation . Although the practice of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) predates Islam, it is in Muslim countries and in Muslim communities where the practice still continues, flourishes and has become another of islam’s sacroscant fetish .FGM- they say this is not an Islamic precept but a cultural one. it may have been carried out on up to 90% of Indonesian women – Islam’s largest country. the conduit for this religious barbarity in Indonesia is Islam not culture. In Indonesia/Malaysia the prevelance is due to religious obligation
it is encouraged and ennobled by ALL FOUR SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE , and enforced by their pernicious sharia ……
Greyhound Fancier says
Ever notice how much of Mohammedanism concerns itself with what goes on between the legs? Between the rules for bathroom etiquette, having to alter genitalia to tidy it up, and permission to rape…how can the people act or be normal and productive?
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
The sex drive is arguably the strongest human instinct after the survival instinct. Freud argued that. Islam was set up from the start to surf human drives such as lusting for other people’s wealth and unfettered limitless sex. Sex is a key foundation stone of Islam. The scriptures teach us that the Holy Prophet Himself was a rapist, and the Holy God Allah commands his faithful to emulate the Holy Prophet as the Perfect Man.
Free money and free sex are powerful drivers. The two combined makes Islam so big, its promise so gargantuan, that it is able to cancel the most powerful of all human instincts: survival. This is done by trading a bomb best for an eternity of limitless wealth and sex. This on its face is an apparent contradiction, but upon reflection is entirely consistent with the overall belief system and makes perfect sense. Faith.
sinantara says
Nah, not true. However, it may be true in some places where certain interpretations of sharia are dominant. Like there are two areas in Indonesia where females are traditionally veiled. Also, I female circumcision is sometimes just a little nick. Be careful with statistics and don’t do a Reza on the other side.
Infidel from Down Under says
And yet the likes of Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, one time Australian Primer Minister and anti misogynist campaigner Julia Gillard along with aspiring UN Secretary General ex New Zealand PM Helen Clark and numerous others who normally campaign so vigorously for womens rights and liberation say and do absolutely nothing when it comes to FGM in the Islamic world.
DISGUSTING!!!. They collectively lose all credibility
Greyhound Fancier says
Arab money talks. And shuts up others.
Scott says
They could have collectively only “lost” credibility only I f they’d had any to begin with.
There is a reason progressive Western Women and LBGT right activists don’t support what would normally be the obvious position to take.
The simple answer is they lack any moral compass. The more in depth answer is they fall subject to the narrative of “soft bigotry”. That is, they have no expectation that Islamic cultures should be held to any other standard but their own. It is condescending and extremely dangerous. Not only to the female and LGBT victims, but to their own constituencies who are misled by them.
It is a reprehensible position. I would say it is dishonest, but look at the group of women you’ve identified. With the exception of Helen Clark,whom I know less about,the other three are dishonest, so their actions are to be expected.
duh_swami says
Circumcision can be religious and cultural at the same time.
It does not have to be one or the other. The culture can absorb a religious practice and a religion can adopt a cultural practice.
Female circumcision is not done for the same reasons males are circumcised.
The followers of the Shafi’ie faith believe that a woman’s sexual desire is harnessed after being cut…
That’s not why men are circumcised. It is because woman’s sexual desires get out of control and need to be harnessed.
Even with FGM, women cannot be trusted. So they should never be alone with a man not related to her, or she will be all over him in seconds driven by an out of control desire for sex.
Obviously this must be tightly controlled.
That’s ‘divine Islamic logic’, that has nothing to do with Islam…
abad says
I probably should have added this to my other post – circumcision – like FGM (!) wasn’t practiced by the ancient Persians, either.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi swami,
“So they should never be alone with a man not related to her, or she will be all over him in seconds driven by an out of control desire for sex.”
Yes, that has typically been my experience as well, although I ordinarily did not consider it a problem.
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- Very funny response. Practicing for stand up at Saturday Night Live?
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Linde,
Just think of me as a Bill Maher stand in…he is kinda busy to post here at JW but if you want to know where I am coming from generally he is about the closest match for me among my fellow A listers. (and yes, I know that one opens me up for some rather crude remarks but I can take it 🙂
Champ says
‘sp’ wrote:
and yes, I know that one opens me up for some rather crude remarks but I can take it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take it? LOL!!! Oh please, he means he can DISH-IT-OUT …
What a baby ..someone call this clown a waaambulance.
voegelinian says
Stardusty has been nearly impeccably crafting a persona that is asymptotic about the problem of Islam (as are Bill Maher and Sam Harris, for example); and other than me, none of his critics in JW comments have yet focused on this weak spot; perhaps because they themselves are in denial of it in themselves and/or in the Counter-Jihad.
Linde Barrera says
To Voegelinian (Vogue)- First, let me give you a sincere compliment: your command of the English language puts you in the “gifted” category in my book, no flattery intended. Second, sometimes you use words that seem to me (I’m a retired NYC elementary pub. sch. teacher) to “throw a curve” into the mix to impress your readers. While this is not annoying, it does send me to the dictionary to get clarification! Third, I am reflecting on your comment about Stardusty Psyche and his way with words that sent mixed signals, and did not converge with his intentions or motivations; I agree, but that was in the beginning when he first burst onto the scene at JW. At that time, he called out just about everyone (to put in his 2 cents) and many of his writings did appear to be highly critical and somewhat confusing, at least to me. But on the bright side, he is accountable and approachable. I laughed at his response to my suggestion that we turn the imam into a sex slave after the imam said empty churches should be turned into mosques. What nerve. Anyway, if Stardusty Psyche, or anyone else is a Muslim troll (he says he’s an atheist) there isn’t much we can do (because this is a free speech website) EXCEPT keep up the writing on the evils of Islam, AND become active on the outside with phone calling, protest rallies, sending letters and emails to our elected reps to keep up the pressure. Today, every bill in Congress seems tied to another bill that has a distant relationship to it. It can be discouraging. Vogue, I hope the answer I gave is satisfactory to you, because it is the only one I have. I am still awaiting answers from Haya, where I posted that Muslim men need 4 wives and sex slaves because many but not all Muslim women were lousy in bed, and I am also awaiting an answer from shams78 if he is a Muslim. Since I haven’t heard from either, silence is consent, and I must be correct ? I do not hate Muslims at all, but I do hate Islam. Peace to you.
gravenimage says
Voeg, I think “Stardusty Psyche” is following the same tack as the egregious long-banned “Americana”.
That is, there came a point early on where Americana was so clearly a Muslim apologist that she was running into a lot of opposition from Anti-Jihadists here at JIhad Watch. She then changed tactics, and became slyer and (superficially) more plausible, and her undercutting of the fight against JIhad more subtle.
That is *exactly* what “Stardusty Psyche” is doing now. Very ugly stuff.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi graven,
” clearly a Muslim apologist …That is *exactly* what “Stardusty Psyche” is doing now
It is good to know there are internet remote projection mind readers like you to help all the otherwise uninformed people learn the truth about the true motivations and beliefs of people who post on line.
You are indeed a legend in your own mind…oh, I;m sorry, did I make some assertion about what you are really thinking? Tut tut, how unreasonable of me.
gravenimage says
The sneering “Stardusty Psyche” has shown many times that he is not an honest actor here—it is certain that he will do so again.
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- Hi again, don’t intend to waste your time. Just wanted to bring up a few points, so answer me when you can. First, I hate it when posters call other posters names, such as shams78 did to you. Very rude. Second, I really don’t know what to say about Stardusty Psyche, as you and several others have commented about his posts and I had found them to be confusing at first, but I think he is being as upfront as he can be, even if posters here are annoyed with him, he still has the right to free speech. He claims to be an atheist, and I feel sorry for anyone who negates God due to their unbelief. I am not a holy roller or what some may call “religious person”, but I attend church monthly and tithe. I obey all the laws (except when I drive above the speed limit on occasion) and do my best not to hurt anyone. I get the feeling that certain individuals here have more than 1 moniker, but of course I can’t prove that. Do you ever get that feeling? Also, I firmly believe that more individuals on this site need to write and call their elected officials about subjects discussed here. When I was a lobbyist for a day with my union I asked Joseph Lentol in the NYS Senate if he answered his mail, his aide said “We count it.” So I take it that numbers are important to the reps and senators. Lastly, sometimes I feel JW can become an obsession! I don’t sit by my phone waiting for the next article or comment, but at times it is overwhelming. Do you ever have that feeling? Take care dear graven. Let me know about any on-line art exhibits you are holding. I will attend and donate.
Starsdusty Psyche says
Hi gravenimage
“The sneering “Stardusty Psyche” has shown many times that he is not an honest actor here—it is certain that he will do so again.”
Did I sneer at you? How very ingracious of me, and after having been spoken of so kindly…
“” clearly a Muslim apologist …That is *exactly* what “Stardusty Psyche” is”
by you…a travesty of ingratitude have I displayed for your wholly objective and fully informed observations…
“he is not an honest actor here”
…indeed, I should really speak more colorfully of your attributions but, then, there are ladies present, I mean, I would tell you privately if such were the occasion, but there are thoughtful people here who might not wish to be exposed to such descriptors.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi gravenimage
“The sneering “Stardusty Psyche” has shown many times that he is not an honest actor here—it is certain that he will do so again.”
Did I sneer at you? How very ingracious of me, and after having been spoken of so kindly…
“” clearly a Muslim apologist …That is *exactly* what “Stardusty Psyche” is”
by you…a travesty of ingratitude have I displayed for your wholly objective and fully informed observations…
“he is not an honest actor here”
…indeed, I should really speak more colorfully of your attributions but, then, there are ladies present, I mean, I would tell you privately if such were the occasion, but there are thoughtful people here who might not wish to be exposed to such descriptors.
Oh silly me, I forgot, you can read minds through your Internet connection, you don’t me to be so explicit.
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- Good morning to you. I have read many of your posts, and in the beginning of our ” JW relationship” I believe you did confuse me, being that you seemed to write with an Islamic persona, but claimed you were an atheist. Your wordings were often sarcastic but witty as well. I will never forget your response to me when I suggested that the French imam be turned into a sex slave or at least a male dancer; the French imam who wants to turn empty Christian churches into Muslim mosques. Most humans evolve during their lifetime. There was a movie with Rock Hudson and Jane Wyman called “Magnificent Obsession” where their characters evolve. Seems to me that your writings have given you that status here at JW. Congratulations! PS- Being born in 1951, I too grew up during the Vietnam War era. It was, in my opinion, a dreadful and confusing as well as an exciting/world changing time. It left many marks on me. Peace and love baby. Ciao.
gravenimage says
Hi Linde. You wrote:
First, I hate it when posters call other posters names, such as shams78 did to you. Very rude.
………………………………..
Linde, I am always polite to other posters, even if I disagree with them on important points—*unless* they are apologists for evil. “Stardustly Psyche” appears to me to fall squarely into that category.
You say you think he has “evolved”, but I believe the only evolving he has done here is to become more calculating. As I said, you need not take my word for it, or that of any other poster—but I would keep an eye on him.
And certainly, the vicious shams78 is simply a naked apologist for Islamic savagery.
More:
Second, I really don’t know what to say about Stardusty Psyche, as you and several others have commented about his posts and I had found them to be confusing at first, but I think he is being as upfront as he can be, even if posters here are annoyed with him, he still has the right to free speech.
………………………………..
I have always been a passionate defender of freedom of speech. Moreover, while neither “Stardusty Psyche” nor anyone else has an intrinsic right to post on Robert Spencer’s personal site (as Jihad Watch is), I have never called for his banning.
It is important to recall that an important aspect of freedom of speech is to be free to challenge the speech of others.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from having your views questioned.
More:
He claims to be an atheist, and I feel sorry for anyone who negates God due to their unbelief…
………………………………..
I can certainly see that. But there are a large number of agnostics and atheists at JIhad Watch who are staunch Anti-Jihadists, and are very much the allies of Christian and Jewish Anti-Jihadists here.
More:
Also, I firmly believe that more individuals on this site need to write and call their elected officials about subjects discussed here.
………………………………..
I very much agree. It may well awaken and educate the more decent elected officials to the threat of Islam, and will even have an impact on those who lack strong personal convictions and govern by polls, if they realize that enough of their constituents share these concerns.
More:
Lastly, sometimes I feel JW can become an obsession! I don’t sit by my phone waiting for the next article or comment, but at times it is overwhelming. Do you ever have that feeling?
………………………………..
Every day—I can’t keep up with the mushrooming flood of Islamic horror here every day. I often lack the time to even read all the stories here, let alone comment on them. I have no idea how the indefatigable Robert Spencer keeps up his schedule of maintaining Jihad Watch, speaking, traveling, writing, and running Anti-Jihad campaigns with AFDI, SIOA, and other groups.
I find his example both inspiring and occasionally exhausting.
But i do believe this to be the most important fight of our time, just as the fight against Fascism was definitive for our parents and grandparents.
We know what we can lose if Islam wins—our rights, our values, and our lives. Being obsessed with this fight is not a bad thing.
More:
Take care dear graven. Let me know about any on-line art exhibits you are holding. I will attend and donate.
………………………………..
Thanks so much, Linde. I often wish I could post some of my non-Jihad related work here.
But I do have to find the time to post the work I did for the Muhammed Cartoon Contest—seven pieces in all, including a tribute to slain Charlie Hebdo editor Stephané Charbaonier, and a painting in the style of Margaret Keene’s “Big Eye” waifs decrying the “Prophet’s” terrible pedophilic rape of little Aisha.
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- Thank you kindly for your response to me of July 8. I really appreciate your insight and advice. I only disagree with 1 point of yours. Shams78 is not an apologist (one who argues in defense or justification of something, such as doctrine, policy or institution) but an in-your-face pot stirrer. So is Rezali Mehil, Haya and anyone of that ilk who makes an announcement and then takes off, and isn’t heard from again, or at least in a while. Which brings me to think that there are certain “areas” manned by a “leader” who directs the willing Muslim designee to write a post here at JW, with a specific message and commenter moniker. And I think I discovered by accident what will trigger these designees from not replying back to a question: respectfully mention anything having to do with sex, a bed, a passionate relationship, etc in Islam or between Muslims and the “designee” will close down. Or ask them outright if he/she is a Muslim. Chances are good, they won’t reply back. Of course, there are exceptions to my observation. Remember Brian Hoff? He was what I term a “reverse apologist” because he would taut the Quran, but only what was peaceful. He used to say, “I can’t see any verses such as “Kill the infidels wherever you find them.” And Brian had a distinct “victim-like” air about himself that he played up! Anyway, these are a few of my thoughts. Thank you for giving me encouragement where my obsession with JW is concerned. You are so right when you state “Counter-jihad is a fight worthy of obsession.” God bless you and yours.
gravenimage says
Hi Linde. You wrote:
To gravenimage- Thank you kindly for your response to me of July 8. I really appreciate your insight and advice. I only disagree with 1 point of yours. Shams78 is not an apologist (one who argues in defense or justification of something, such as doctrine, policy or institution) but an in-your-face pot stirrer. So is Rezali Mehil, Haya and anyone of that ilk who makes an announcement and then takes off, and isn’t heard from again
……………………………………..
Linde, I use “Muslim apologist” in the broad sense of anyone who takes a stance opposed to the Counter Jihad. This can cover a lot of ground—everything from falsely claiming that Islam is a “religion of peace” to gloating over our supposed immanent subjugation under Shari’ah law. And while most Muslim apologists are Muslims, some are useful idiots or just anarchistic trolls. In any case, their goal is to undermine the fight against Jihad and Shari’ah in one way or another.
And Rezali Mehil has been posting here for a long time, although she will go for long periods sometimes between comments. This is true for quite a few of the Muslim trolls here.
More:
Which brings me to think that there are certain “areas” manned by a “leader” who directs the willing Muslim designee to write a post here at JW, with a specific message and commenter moniker.
……………………………………..
With all respect, I don’t share your opinion here. These Muslims come from all over and from different backgrounds—I don’t believe that Muslims as different as Rezali Mehil, “Brian Hoff” (DefenderofIslam), and shams78 are under the control of a central leader.
But they *are* all under the control of Islam, which explains their similarities.
Certain things tend to push their buttons—Rezali Mehil loves stories about Shi’ites, about Muslimahs, about pedophilia, and about the incursions of Islam into the West, especially as it effects Infidel women.
“Brian Hoff” mostly comments on stories where Islam is making headway in the United States, especially in the South. He also comments on stories about Infidels “reverting” to Islam, since he is a “revert” himself.
The marginally more sophisticated trolls weigh in whenever they think they can discredit the source, and hence cast doubt on the threat of Islam.
Some stories really bring out the trolls, and you will have several on the same thread.
Their comments are often quite instructive as to the workings of the Muslim mindset—such as the Da’wa artist shabeer hassan who will claim that Islam does not allow pedophilia or enslaving Infidels or killing non-combatants, and then will cite Islamic texts which quite specifically sacralize those very horrors.
More:
And I think I discovered by accident what will trigger these designees from not replying back to a question: respectfully mention anything having to do with sex, a bed, a passionate relationship, etc in Islam or between Muslims and the “designee” will close down. Or ask them outright if he/she is a Muslim. Chances are good, they won’t reply back.
……………………………………..
In most cases it’s because these Muslims are incapable of engaging in a rational debate. For the most part they want to drop their bs here, but are not equipped to actually defend their positions.
More:
Of course, there are exceptions to my observation. Remember Brian Hoff? He was what I term a “reverse apologist” because he would taut the Quran, but only what was peaceful. He used to say, “I can’t see any verses such as “Kill the infidels wherever you find them.” And Brian had a distinct “victim-like” air about himself that he played up!
……………………………………..
There is a continuum of apologia, ranging from false claims about the supposedly benign nature of Islam to gloating over our falling to our Muslim overlords. Moreover, such superficially contradictory claims are both intended to undermine opposition to Islam, either by implying it is not necessary, or by asserting that it is doomed to fail.
More:
Anyway, these are a few of my thoughts. Thank you for giving me encouragement where my obsession with JW is concerned. You are so right when you state “Counter-jihad is a fight worthy of obsession.” God bless you and yours.
……………………………………..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Linde—I always enjoy corresponding with you.
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- So grateful for your explanations and patience as I am not as “in tune” with all the facts and nuances that surround this subject and website commenters. And how could I have forgotten shabeer hassan?! Have a grrreat weekend.
voegelinian says
Stardusty Psyche says
July 12, 2015 at 4:10 am
Hi vogie,
“every other religion on the planet (Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Animists, Wiccans, etc. — not to mention atheists ”
Atheism is not a religion, but then, you didn’t mention it.
And StardustyPsyche chides me for being “vacuous”…
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Vogie,
Did I call your comments “vacuous”? I typically consider them to be gibberish…not all mind you, just the run on sentence word salad mashup ones.
But ok, if you say so I believe you, I just don’t recall at the moment…
But seriously folks, the thing about Atheism not being a religion is a serious topic, however, if you don’t care for my method of broaching that subject, fair enough, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
voegelinian says
Stardusty Psyche says
July 12, 2015 at 4:10 am
“These two odd inabilities in StardustyPsyche’s critical faculties in turn would tend to have the effect of setting up an artificial axiom whereby any data that indicates a broader based, amorphous fanaticism unlike any other religious demographic in terms of cultivating hatred of the Other, sedition, and violence, must forever be explained away with any explanation that will keep the researcher safely inoculated from any recognition of the systemic nature & dimensions of the problem.”
Sorry Vogie, I would answer that but I have still not learned to speak Gibberish
StardustyPsyche is intelligent enough to know that what I wrote in that paragraph is not “gibberish”. Why is he lying then? Apparently because he wants to try to avoid responding to what I’m saying there.
He’s done this before with my posts. Previously, I explained line by line how my post he called “gibberish” was, in fact, not gibberish.
duh_swami says
You date sexually out of control Muslimahs?
Have you ever run into anything ‘strange’ under the burqa?
voegelinian says
Stardusty Psyche says
July 10, 2015 at 9:04 am
“Being an atheist is a natural outcome of applying critical thinking …”
Selectively critical, apparently; such that he can’t see the astronomic difference between Muslims and the practitioners of every other religion on the planet (Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Animists, Wiccans, etc. — not to mention atheists and agnostics). Closely related to this odd inability is StardustyPsyche’s inability to distinguish between a systemic problem of a religious demographic and a total problem. In his anxiety to stem “bigotry” in the Counter-Jihad, he seems to draw an Either/Or choice between condemning “all Muslims” and condemning only a Tiny Minority of Extremists.
These two odd inabilities in StardustyPsyche’s critical faculties in turn would tend to have the effect of setting up an artificial axiom whereby any data that indicates a broader based, amorphous fanaticism unlike any other religious demographic in terms of cultivating hatred of the Other, sedition, and violence, must forever be explained away with any explanation that will keep the researcher safely inoculated from any recognition of the systemic nature & dimensions of the problem.
voegelinian says
I left out something from my first sentence:
“Yes, that explanatory page from the that warms SP’s cockles so …”
should read:
“Yes, that explanatory page from the religion of peace.com site that warms SP’s cockles so …”
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi vogie,
“every other religion on the planet (Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Animists, Wiccans, etc. — not to mention atheists ”
Atheism is not a religion, but then, you didn’t mention it.
“These two odd inabilities in StardustyPsyche’s critical faculties in turn would tend to have the effect of setting up an artificial axiom whereby any data that indicates a broader based, amorphous fanaticism unlike any other religious demographic in terms of cultivating hatred of the Other, sedition, and violence, must forever be explained away with any explanation that will keep the researcher safely inoculated from any recognition of the systemic nature & dimensions of the problem.”
Sorry Vogie, I would answer that but I have still not learned to speak Gibberish.
voegelinian says
Yeah, I don’t think Stardusty is a Muslim. But I do think he is anti-West in a sense as were, say, Condorcet, Comte, Hegel, Feuerbach, Marx, Bakunin, Nietzsche, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Che Guevara, Derrida, Foucault, Baudrillard, the Clintons, Obama; et al…
Linde Barrera says
To Voegelinian (Vogue) – You named some pretty stellar people, all of whom have either gotten rich or become famous and enjoyed notoriety because of the west. So that tells me they had a stake in trying to destroy an entity that had its faults but was basically of sound, beneficial design. There’s something both predatory and spectacular in all that. I don’t know if it is good though, since a “cause” should benefit lots of people, not just a few.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi voegelinian
“Yeah, I don’t think Stardusty is a Muslim. But I do think he is anti-West”
Well, at least you are half right.
Guess what folks, not everybody who loves their fellow Americans and deeply appreciates the sacrifice of those who fought and died for our precious freedoms also has a blind spot for all the terrible mistakes made along the way.
These things are not mutually exclusive. That should be obvious, but apparently it is not.
I grew up in a time of great turmoil in the USA, duck and cover, hell no we won’t go, burn baby burn, America love it or leave it.
My response to all that as a young man was, and remains to this day, America love it and change it.
The first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims. Here, maybe you folks can take it from the guys who tally the bodies and publish the verses, thereligionofpeace.com, oh, and ladies, don’t think so harshly of us for the pole dancing girl, she is only there for anthropological academic study reasons, I assure you!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
quotha raven says
@Stardusty – You write:
“I grew up in a time of great turmoil in the USA, duck and cover, hell no we won’t go, burn baby burn, America love it or leave it.
My response to all that as a young man was, and remains to this day, America love it and change it.
The first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims.”
Let’s call the above statements 1, 2, and 3, Dusty. What makes me leery of you and your comments is the thought process you reveal. In this case, for example, 3 does NOT follow 1 and 2 in any logical or causative way, even though you present it as the final stroke of a Venn Diagram, with a little “aha” embedded for giggles.
There were a lot of factors that contributed to the free love, anti war, civil rights activities of the 60s. Muslims, I assure you, did not figure into the equation at all, and that you transit into 3 so seamlessly seems phony, forced and gratuitous, suggesting that what’s really going on is you, looking for a way here to present your agenda, which seems to be pro-Islam.
It was fully forty years, with the horror attendant to September 11, 2001*, before Islam became clearly relevant to how one thinks about America. Islam had absolutely nothing to do with the activities of the 60s, and by associating them with 60s motivation is awkward and unconvincing. I don’t think many Americans who experienced the 60s would express themselves this way.
*Although Jimmeh Carter’s handling of the Iranian fall of the shah, introduction to the world of the Khomeini, and hostage-holding woke some Americans up to the potential threat of Islam.
So I, for one, find you awkward and unconvincing. I’m unable to take your sarcastic blather seriously.
Cheers, Quotha
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Raven,
“Let’s call the above statements 1, 2, and 3, Dusty. What makes me leery of you and your comments is the thought process you reveal. In this case, for example, 3 does NOT follow 1 and 2 in any logical or causative way, even though you present it as the final stroke of a Venn Diagram,”
Straw man.
Who said anything about a Venn diagram or even attempting to establish a causal link or association between events?
I am just telling you a few things that shaped my attitudes, if you don’t care, that’s fine.
“looking for a way here to present your agenda, which seems to be pro-Islam. ”
If by “pro-islam” you mean “pro First Amendment”, “pro-US military”, and against “fascistic, misogynistic, homophobic, homicidal, suicidal, expansionist, extortionist Muhammadanism” then I suppose you would be correct.
When confronted with the inability of some people to think outside their false dichotomy sycophant box, sarcasm is about the kindest response I can often muster. I do apologize for that and promise to resort to colorful epithets in the future instead.
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
“The first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/06/wife-of-france-jihad-killer-we-are-normal-muslims-we-do-ramadan#comment-1259422
“So many posters here simply say “Muslim” lumping all Muslims together as is typical of a bigoted ignorant stupid ass“
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi angemon,
Yes, lumping all individuals of a particular description for the purpose of condemning them all is indeed the mark of an ignorant ass…an action I have seen and commented upon many times here at JW.
It is that very generalization that ought to change.
You seem incapable of distinguishing between
All X are bad
vs
You need to change your attitudes toward X
Angemon: master not only of the distinction without a difference, but also the difference without a distinction.
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
“Yes, lumping all individuals of a particular description for the purpose of condemning them all is indeed the mark of an ignorant ass”
See, now you’re gaslighting, like Obama: “I never said you could keep your plan, what I said was…”
Your exact words are (and I provided the link – you can check for yourself, if you don’t trust me):
Which is exactly what you did when you said that “The first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims” – you lumped all muslims together without making any of the distinctions you insist we should do.
You expect other people commenting in JW to do some sort of arbitrary distinction between muslims without explaining what that distinction should be, or how they’re supposed to make it in their everyday life, while you abstain yourself from making said distinction, and you chastise them for doing what you do rather than what you preach. That’s called hypocrisy, my friend.
“You seem incapable of distinguishing between
All X are bad
vs
You need to change your attitudes toward X”
First of all, who said all X are bad? You’ve chided others for simply saying “All X” without making any sort of distinction between Xs. Once again, your exact words are:
Had they been:
And you might have had a point. But they weren’t, and gaslighting won’t do you any good.
Secondly, by your logic, we need to change our attitudes towards islamic state members, because they are X (where X = muslims), and we “need to change our attitudes toward X” – are we not allowed to say that IS members are bad because they are muslims and we need to change our attitudes toward muslims? Are we not allowed to say that IS members are terrorists and should be shot on sight because they are muslims and we need to change our attitudes toward muslims?
It’s a shame you’re as hamstrung by political correctness as your alleged idol. I, for one, won’t stop criticizing the barbarities committed by the islamic state just because they’re muslims, no matter how much you wish otherwise.
“Angemon: master not only of the distinction without a difference, but also the difference without a distinction.”
No, no, starchild, I can’t take credit where it’s not due – the problem lies in the dissonance between what you preach others and what you do, and in your attempts to backpedal. Your poor grasp of logic doesn’t really help you either.
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- In “Casablanca” Bogart and Bergman tell each other “We’ll always have Paris.” And you and I can say that we’ll always have your hysterical comments about me going to a male dance club because I suggested that the imam in France be turned into a sex slave or male dancer, since he wants to turn the empty churches into mosques, nerve of him. But I just read your post of July 8, at 7:15 am, and in the last paragraph you state: “Don’t be too hard on us Muslims.” Stardusty, you always billed yourself as an atheist. May I ask: what is the truth? Will the real Stardusty Psyche please come forward? PS If you really are a Muslim, nobody here can hurt you, nobody here knows where you live, etc. A Muslim is a person that can change, while Islam is an ideology that cannot change. I put my money on the entity that changes and can make progress. That is why I have no issue with my fellow humans, regardless of who they are. But I still hate Islam and always will, because to me, Islam is from the devil. Please let me hear from you.
gravenimage says
Voegelinian wrote:
Yeah, I don’t think Stardusty is a Muslim. But I do think he is anti-West…
……………………..
I very much agree, Voegelinian. One need not be Muslim to be a Muslim apologist. Many anti-West useful idiots fall into this category.
gravenimage says
“Stardusty Psyche” wrote:
Guess what folks, not everybody who loves their fellow Americans and deeply appreciates the sacrifice of those who fought and died for our precious freedoms also has a blind spot for all the terrible mistakes made along the way.
These things are not mutually exclusive. That should be obvious, but apparently it is not.
…………………………………
What mendacious nonsense. The West, in fact, is quite capable of self-reflection and self-criticism—more so, in fact, than any other society in history. The idea that those at Jihad Watch are incapable of critiquing their own society is given the lie every day here, both in the articles and in the comments section.
Moreover, how odd is this—his reaction to an atrocity like the one above is to turn on those who condemn it, claiming that such critics are not sufficiently self critical.
More:
I grew up in a time of great turmoil in the USA, duck and cover, hell no we won’t go, burn baby burn, America love it or leave it.
My response to all that as a young man was, and remains to this day, America love it and change it.
The first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims…
…………………………………
“Stardusty Psyche” does not explain how, exactly, this mishmash of ’60s clichés has informed his view of “change”, but it seems to involve the idea that Muslims should not be criticized or even questioned about their adherence to their violent creed.
More:
Here, maybe you folks can take it from the guys who tally the bodies and publish the verses, thereligionofpeace.com,
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
…………………………………
Well, this is odd. Actually, while the tone is a bit different, the fact is that The Religion of Peace site and Jihad Watch cover a lot of the same ground—Jihad Watch could be described, albeit not terribly articulately, as ‘tallying the bodies and quoting the verses’, as well.
Moreover, the page he links to is almost identical to what Robert Spencer has said vis-a-vis Muslims and Islam.
Further, his implication that The Religion of Peace site is hence considered less “Islamophobic” than is Jihad Watch could not be further from the truth. In fact, The Religion of Peace is constantly excoriated for its supposed Islamophobia:
“Digitized Islamophobia”
http://islamophobia132.weebly.com/the-religion-of-peace-and-islam-watch.html
More, in reply to Quotha Raven:
Hi Raven,
“Let’s call the above statements 1, 2, and 3, Dusty. What makes me leery of you and your comments is the thought process you reveal. In this case, for example, 3 does NOT follow 1 and 2 in any logical or causative way, even though you present it as the final stroke of a Venn Diagram,”
Straw man.
Who said anything about a Venn diagram or even attempting to establish a causal link or association between events?
…………………………………
Clearly, “Stardusty Psyche” *was* intending to establish such a link, or he would not have noted this in the first place.
More:
“looking for a way here to present your agenda, which seems to be pro-Islam. ”
If by “pro-islam” you mean “pro First Amendment”, “pro-US military”, and against “fascistic, misogynistic, homophobic, homicidal, suicidal, expansionist, extortionist Muhammadanism” then I suppose you would be correct.
When confronted with the inability of some people to think outside their false dichotomy sycophant box, sarcasm is about the kindest response I can often muster. I do apologize for that and promise to resort to colorful epithets in the future instead.
…………………………………
Yes, because the horrors of Islam are so nuanced—one must not posit a dichotomy between those who practice such atrocities in the name of “religion” and those who consider it vicious and evil…
More, in reply to Angemon:
Yes, lumping all individuals of a particular description for the purpose of condemning them all is indeed the mark of an ignorant ass…
…………………………………
“A particular description”? Hence, one must not say anything negative about, say, mass-murderers or self-identified Nazis as a group?
I doubt “Stardusty Psyche” would actually make such a case.
From his first postings at Jihad Watch, “Stardusty Psyche” has worked to undermine and discredit opposition to Jihad, and it is no different here.
Champ says
Graven wrote:
From his first postings at Jihad Watch, “Stardusty Psyche” has worked to undermine and discredit opposition to Jihad, and it is no different here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly, Graven. That sums ‘it’ up perfectly.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Linde,
Uhmmm,
I kinda don’t even know where you are getting this from, so I will make some guesses…
You quoted me (incorrectly) as saying “Don’t be too hard on us Muslims.”. That phrase does not occur in my July 8, at 7:15 am post.
So, again, you really got me goin like I don’t know what I’m doing, girl…
Uhmmmm…Linde baby, have your been watching reruns of The Full Monte just a few too many times…like maybe your mind is on bigger and better things…your concentration is having a hard time?
…ok, still hypotheSIZing here…like, this is maybe where things got a little conflated…
“the first thing the average JW poster needs to change is their attitudes toward Muslims. Here, maybe you folks can take it from the guys who tally the bodies and publish the verses, thereligionofpeace.com, oh, and ladies, don’t think so harshly of us for the pole dancing girl, she is only there for anthropological academic study reasons, I assure you!
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm”
Did you maybe somehow put the word “us” before the word “Muslims”? That’s about 29 words of separation, and a whole lotta translocatin, but….
it’s a man thing, okay? I mean, the men at thereligionofpeace.com found a picture of a girl pole dancing and just kind of posted in along with their otherwise serious commentary just because, well, they are men. You think girls have a corner on the market of irrationality or something?
“Us” as in “we men”.
So if you want “the real Stardusty Psyche please come forward” then go to the link, check out the hot girl on the pole, dig it, then, put that thought aside, carefully read the content of the text, appreciate the intellectual complexities raised and sociological sensibilities expressed, and there you will have pretty much me.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- Sir, yes sir! You are completely correct and I did misquote you but not on purpose! I do not rewrite the quotes of people to whom I am commenting. I saw “The Religion of Peace” and thought that when you wrote “us” you were implying “us Muslims”. So it was my unintended error, and I apologize. But it gives me no satisfaction to know you are still an atheist! As for the young lady on the pole, I thought I saw the caption “Miss Muslim” and if I am correct, I am quite surprised that her momma would let her pose like that, not that she looked indecent, just not your typical female “Islamic” look. I appreciate your way with words, you do crack me up! Allow me an attempt to make you laugh. When I was a junior in h.s., I had 1 date with Richie, who joined the US army after graduation and was home on leave. (I knew him from church.) He treated me to the movies and an ice cream float afterwards. He walked me to my home and kissed me good-bye with a passion I never experienced at 17! My dad, who just happened to be in the driveway cleaning out his car (at 930 pm) called to me to see if Richie had stopped kissing me and left. (Dad’s intentional signal for Richie to leave, which he did.) When I got into the house, my dad whipped out his pocket handkerchief and said “Please wipe your mouth off”. Of course, I complied. The end. (And if you have a daughter of dating age, good luck!)
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Linde,
As I suspected…no harm no foul.
The story is pretty funny! I am sure you were kind of uncomfortable at the time…it’s a dad thing, nobody is ever good enough for our little girl and we have to resist the temptation to break the arm and wring the neck of every guy who touches her in the slightest…yet we are ourselves sexually aggressive and adventurous…seems hypocritical I know.
Being an atheist is a natural outcome of applying critical thinking first to scriptures in rejecting particular doctrines, and then in general in rejecting any theistic notion. Truth, reason, and reality are not the negative stereotype so many Christians have of atheists, so don’t worry about me Linde, its all good.
Champ says
Linde, are you serious? Hey why don’t you and ‘sp’ get a room, for pete’s sake! Or exchange each other’s email (through Robert) so the two of you can share such personal stories, privately. Jeez …
Linde Barrera says
To Champ- I apologize for offending you. I didn’t mean to, please believe me. I look to connect humor when the situation arises. I would not ask for anyone’s email because that is personal, and I won’t entertain that idea. I also have noticed, reading some comments that go back a while, that some posters (not hinting at you or anyone specific) just like to complain and air their grievances, but appear to not do very much to try to altar situations and results between the civil/social aspects of life and the impact Islam has been trying to make on those aspects. I dont want to see a great site like Jihad Watch take on an air of becoming a “soap opera” for people, even though they do have the right to freely express their grievances and not do a thing after that. But, accountability on the part of any government must be questioned, and outcomes must be obtained. At least I make phone calls and write letters about injustices regarding Islam. I never did get a reply from Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, my 2 US Senators or Queen Elizabeth II, but I did get a response from King Abdulllah of Jordan. To conclude, faith without works is a dead faith, and I want to make my faith work for society’s good, especially in light of the fact that many people don’t give a good kitty about much of anything.
Champ says
C’mon, Linde, this is Jihad Watch, not a dating forum. Thank you.
Joseph says
@ gravenimage
S (synesthesia)P (permanente) wrote “I grew up in a time of great turmoil in the USA, duck and cover, hell no we won’t go, burn baby burn, America love it or leave it.”
___________________
I wonder if he is still on a LSD trip or had a few(hundred?) that went horribly wrong. Like at Woodstock when they announced “not to take the brown acid” he already took 5 tabs.
Stardusty Psyche says
Every time I think of Joseph it’s another flashback…
…the Hollies..
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother
Joseph says
Has anyone ever thought that SP might be more than one person?
Some of the flavors and stance he takes vary from day to day in his posts.
The other one is that he is all over the place ALL the time.
Just thought I would throw that one out there.
What do you think PJ? Does it seem plausible?
gravenimage says
“Stardusty Psyche” wrote:
it’s a man thing, okay? I mean, the men at thereligionofpeace.com found a picture of a girl pole dancing and just kind of posted in along with their otherwise serious commentary just because, well, they are men.
……………………………….
The picture was somewhat gratuitous, but not completely so. This was a picture of Muslim Miss USA Rima Fakih, who rather notably had at one point won a pole dancing contest.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi graven,
Yes, I realized after I posted that less than totally serious message to Linde that I had left myself open to this point. Self identifying Muslims do not necessarily fit the stereotype, as the picture illustrates.
Thanks for not hammering me too hard with it!
On a more serious note I really do hope the folks here who have not already done so will read that particular page on thereligionofpeace. I am sure everybody here is familiar with the site and respects the work they are doing and the many informational pages they index. More than a few times I have stared at thereligionofpeace and then taken their references to sunnah.com or corpus.quran.com.
Maybe the folks here can take it more readily at
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
as opposed to hearing it from a stupid ObamaBot like me.
Besides, there is a picture of a hot girl in a provocative pose to sugar coat the pill!
gravenimage says
Joseph wrote:
Has anyone ever thought that SP might be more than one person?
Some of the flavors and stance he takes vary from day to day in his posts.
The other one is that he is all over the place ALL the time.
………………………….
I believe “Stardusty Psyche” is a single poster, Joseph.
Since his one coherent aim here seems to be undermining the fight against Jihad, he can take any tack that would seem to accomplish this at any given time, and in reply to any story or any poster’s comment. There is no need for him to be consistent.
Mirren10 says
I agree, graven.
I think what we have here is an example of what C.S. Lewisdescribed as “men without chests”.
Apart from his rabid anti-Semitism, and virulent hatred of Israel, there really isn’t any *there*, there.
Witness his unseemly sniggering on this thread.
gravenimage says
Yet more from “Stardusty Psyche”:
Hi graven,
Yes, I realized after I posted that less than totally serious message to Linde that I had left myself open to this point. Self identifying Muslims do not necessarily fit the stereotype, as the picture illustrates.
………………………………..
Good grief—we’re supposed to believe that pole dancing (and more troublingly drunk driving) are just part of the wonderful, diverse mosaic of “self identifying” Muslim behavior.
The idea that passing oneself off as a devout, Ramadan-observing Muslimah while spending time in jail for drunk driving is a good thing is very odd—and something that would only be applied to Infidels considering Muslim ‘diversity’. Most others would just consider it hypocrisy.
But we regularly see this—the implication that Muslims misbehaving in various ways supposedly shows that they are pro-Western is a *very* odd one. Drinking or going to strip clubs is *hardly* proof that said Muslim actually embraces core Western freedoms—being a lax Muslim is *not* the same thing as upholding Western values.
And it is just the same here: while she may engage in rather garden-variety hypocrisy, the fact is that she *is* a pious Muslim where it counts—in her disturbing support of Hizb’allah. She has many relatives who are not only members of Hizb’allah, but who have died as Jihad terrorist “Martyrs”. She refuses to condemn Hizb’allah.
And while I have no particular problem with pole dancing, the same cannot be said for her devout coreligionists—she has received a slew of death threats, despite her Jihad bona fides.
In the end, we are faced with a Muslimah who has strong links to Islamic Jihad, pole dances, wrestles, and drives drunk. Is this the ‘diversity’ of Muslims we should be celebrating?
Of course, it is possible that “Stardusty Psyche” is not familiar with the uglier aspects of Rima Fakih’s c.v.—but in any case, he is willing to put her forward as a Muslim who defies stereotypes. Pretty questionable.
More:
Thanks for not hammering me too hard with it!
On a more serious note I really do hope the folks here who have not already done so will read that particular page on thereligionofpeace. I am sure everybody here is familiar with the site and respects the work they are doing and the many informational pages they index. More than a few times I have stared at thereligionofpeace and then taken their references to sunnah.com or corpus.quran.com.
Maybe the folks here can take it more readily at
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
as opposed to hearing it from a stupid ObamaBot like me.
………………………………..
As “Stardusty Psyche” notes, many JW readers are already quite familiar with the Religion of Peace site, and the message about Muslims there is almost identical to, as I have noted, to what Robert Spencer says, in any case. So the idea that good Anti-Jihadists here need to be somehow educated about this is ridiculous.
And the implication that the only problems Jihad Watch readers have with him boils down to ad hominem attacks is ludicrous—it is the nasty content of his posts that has drawn criticism. By the way, I do not recall anyone referring to him as a “stupid ObamaBot”. This sounds more like a caricature of objection to his ugly posting history here than anything of substance. In fact, the only instances of these phrases being applied to “Stardusty Psyche” are on two other threads where he “ironically” applies them to himself, just as he did here.
More:
Besides, there is a picture of a hot girl in a provocative pose to sugar coat the pill!
……………………………….
Well, yes—for those who take their hot girls as they can find them, and have no problem with whether said hot girl is a supporter of violent Jihad, this is definitely the case!
gravenimage says
Agreed, Mirren.
Joseph says
Thanks graven and Mirren. It WAS a thought that SP was more than one person.
Stardusty Psyche says
“Mirren10 says
July 10, 2015 at 6:23 pm
…
Apart from his rabid anti-Semitism”,
Mirren10 is herein a liar
“and virulent hatred of Israel,”
Mirren10 is herein a liar
Produce factual evidence that I have a racist or ethnically based bigotry toward Jews, else, my call out of Mirren10 as a liar stands.
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
“Produce factual evidence that I have a racist or ethnically based bigotry toward Jews”
You have often repeated the lies invented by people who want the Jews exterminated simply for being Jews – that Israel is trying to steal land, ethnically cleansing the “palestinians”, keeping them in prison camps, etc.:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/07/saudi-prince-pledges-32-billion-to-charity-promoting-saudi-arabias-brand-of-islam-while-censoring-criticism-of-islam#comment-1265569
“They have already displaced (cleansed based on ethnicity) hundreds of thousands from within the borders of Israel and for the time being are concentrating on stealing land in what they call Samaria and Judea. Operating Gaza as a prison camp best suits Israel as lead by Likud for the time being.”
What Mirren said stands, and you owe her an apology.
Stardusty Psyche says
So, Angemon decides to double down on his blatantly fallacious “reasoning” and baseless charge of anti-semitism (a racist bigotry against ethnic Jews)
Am-“You have often repeated the lies invented by people who want the Jews exterminated simply for being Jews – that Israel is trying to steal land, ethnically cleansing the “palestinians”, keeping them in prison camps, etc.:”
What an idiotically fallacious bit of “reasoning”.
I agree with a statement made by X, therefore I agree with all positions of X.
The stupidity of your :”reasoning” is stunning.
Since you seem unable to see this Association Fallacy before you use it (unless this is sophistry on your part, which may well be the case) study the diagram here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
Now, Angemon, if you did not live in a little tunnel vision world you would know that hundreds of thousands of indigenous inhabitants were in fact displaced (cleansed) from within the borders of Israel based on their ethnicity. Have you ever heard of the issue of “right of return”.? I mean, I can see how you have missed it since it has only been a major negotiation and news topic for decades.
By your “reasoning” all those who recognize that this ethnically based displacement has in fact occurred are “anti-semetic”. Are you really that stupid or are you just throwing s–t to see what will stick?
Am-:”that Israel is trying to steal land”. Take off your blinkers for a moment and you will see that Israel has already stolen the land of those they displaced from within the borders of Israel, and they have stolen about half the West Bank, and Likud was founded on the principle of stealing all the land from the Sea to the Jordan…with no signs they intend to stop this continual process.
Get some maps of the West Bank. Read up on settlements, buffer zones, archaeological digs, and the many methods the Israeli government uses to steal more and more land continually, with the stated goal of stealing it all. Read the founding documents of Likud. Educate yourself.
Am-:”keeping them in prison camps,” Gaza is a prison camp. So are the apartheid Bantustans Israel operates and separates with police state travel restrictions and check points.
Get your head out of the sand and you will find vast numbers of people who recognize these facts, but then I suppose former POTUS Carter is an anti-semite too.
SP(cited by Am)-““They have already displaced (cleansed based on ethnicity) hundreds of thousands from within the borders of Israel and for the time being are concentrating on stealing land in what they call Samaria and Judea. Operating Gaza as a prison camp best suits Israel as lead by Likud for the time being.”
Those words have a certain property, it is called “truth”.
“What Mirren said stands, and you owe her an apology.”
It will be a very cold day in hell indeed before I apologize to Mirren or Angemon for the both of them having made against me the sordid and utterly false charge of anti-semitism, a racist bigotry against ethnic Jews.
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
“What an idiotically fallacious bit of “reasoning”.
I agree with a statement made by X, therefore I agree with all positions of X.
The stupidity of your :”reasoning” is stunning.”
Not so fast, my logically challenged, invective throwing, brother in mankind. Had I said “an anti-semite said the weather is fine and you agree with it? Whoa, you’re an anti-semite” and you might have had a point. But what I said was that people with the attribute X (where X is hatred of Jews and Israel) made up a series of claims meant to be a vehicle for X. If you’re propagating said claims then it’s perfectly logic to say you agree with X, therefore the claims of anti-semitism are perfectly valid.
“Now, Angemon, if you did not live in a little tunnel vision world you would know that hundreds of thousands of indigenous inhabitants were in fact displaced (cleansed) from within the borders of Israel based on their ethnicity.”
I’m just going to repeat here what I told you elsewhere:
Now, an estimated 472.000 arabs left Israel in 48 when its Arab neighbours threatened to destroy it. The so-called right of return is demanded for an estimated 5 million of “palestinians”, many of which never set foot on Israel or even intend to. How does one get right of return to someplace they’ve never even been? Maybe you could explain that logical leapfrog, logical leapfrogs being your bread and butter.
“By your “reasoning” all those who recognize that this ethnically based displacement has in fact occurred are “anti-semetic””
Nope. Not by my reasoning – my reasoning is that the people who lie about it are doing so because they want to demonize Jews. Like I said, the majority of Arabs either left voluntarily, waiting to return once all Jews were dead, or voluntarily sold their lands. Taking the small amount of compulsory expulsions and pretending that was the norm rather than the exception is tantamount to lying, and it is done with the sole purpose of demonizing Israel and Jews – ergo, anti-semitism.
“ Take off your blinkers for a moment and you will see that Israel has already stolen the land of those they displaced from within the borders of Israel, and they have stolen about half the West Bank, and Likud was founded on the principle of stealing all the land from the Sea to the Jordan…with no signs they intend to stop this continual process.”
Once again, I’m just going to repeat what I told you elsewhere:
If you can’t tell the difference between giving land and taking land… well, things don’t bode well for you.
“Gaza is a prison camp.”
Gaza borders Egypt. Israel doesn’t control the borders in Egypt, so it can’t control who enters and who leaves. Also, Hamas and the PA are the ones running the show in Gaza – if people there are living as if in a prison camp, they’re the ones to blame for it. After all, if they allowed the “palestinians” to live a clean, decent life, the international welfare would decrease.
“So are the apartheid Bantustans Israel operates and separates with police state travel restrictions and check points.”
And the slander of apartheid, made up by anti-semites with the purpose of demonizing Israel and Jews, rears its ugly head. Since you’re such a proponent of education on the subject of Israel, allow me to show you the opinion of someone who knows apartheid because he actually lived under it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcEL-NlxBk0
“Those words have a certain property, it is called “truth”.”
As we’ve seen, they don’t.
“It will be a very cold day in hell indeed before I apologize to Mirren or Angemon”
Did I say you needed to apologize to me? I didn’t, my logically handicapped brother in mankind 😉
“for the both of them having made against me the sordid and utterly false charge of anti-semitism, a racist bigotry against ethnic Jews.”
Two different people look at your behaviour and arrive at the same conclusion. Hmmm…..
Stardusty Psyche says
“for the both of them having made against me the sordid and utterly false charge of anti-semitism, a racist bigotry against ethnic Jews.”
Two different people look at your behaviour and arrive at the same conclusion. Hmmm…..”
Yes Angemon, it does make one wonder just how many more people there are in the world who will ignore the fact that many Jews inside and outside Israel say the same things I am saying about Israeli policy, not because they are racist against their own ethnicity, but because they see a series of gross injustices being perpetrated by the government of Israel.
Two people here made the false and sordid accusation of racism against me based on a tortured process of implications and ignorance…and they received in return the invectives their false accusations fully deserve.
Here is good start on what I think about Jews in general:
Stardusty Psyche says
May 29, 2015 at 11:40 am
Hi G. Gardiner.
Actually, it’s 0.2%, not 0.02%, but your point is well taken nevertheless.
(14,000,000 / 7,000,000,000 = 0.002)
Jews account for over 20% of all Nobel prizes, many of which were awarded to pioneers of human endeavors that have revolutionized our understanding of the universe, Albert Einstein for example.
So, Jews are 100 times more productive per capita in Nobel prizes than the population as a whole.
(0.20 / 0.002 = 100). That says a lot about their culture of family, education, and successful contribution to the advance of humanity.
BTW, I think the doctrines of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are equally false, and each are utterly deplorable…but in terms of Nobel prize productivity as a cultural indicator…facts are facts.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/05/these-people-are-speaking-a-strange-language
*********************************************************
So get you head out of the sand, take off the blinkers, and wake up to the fact that not everybody fits into your little boxes. Some of us are capable of appreciating all the great things that so many Jews have done for the advancement of humanity and also condemning the gross injustices perpetrated by the Israeli government.
If you want to play the race card in response to criticism of the government of Israel you can put it where the sun don’t shine and whatever other invectives I wish to apply I will.
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
“Two people here made the false and sordid accusation of racism against me …
(…)
If you want to play the race card…”
What race is Judaism and Israel? And where did I or Mirren said anything about race? We pointed out you’re anti-semite (a jew hater, if you don’t know the meaning of that expression in current english) – why else would you continue to spread such vicious libel? A Likud government was the first to trade land for peace (and cheated in the process since it didn’t get what it paid for). Other Likud governments did the same, but you insist that Likud wants to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan and shows no signs of stopping. Facts don’t match your narrative. You made a slanderous claim of apartheid, which someone who lived under apartheid said, on camera, that not only it’s demonstrably false, it’s also a disrespect to all those who lived in actual apartheid.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, you’re simply regurgitating the same handful of bullet points over and over, waiting to see if anything sticks.
Stardusty Psyche says
Am-“What race is Judaism and Israel? ”
Judaism is a religion.
Israel is a political entity, a nation.
To be a Jew is potentially both an ethnicity and a religious identification.
Am-“And where did I or Mirren said anything about race?”
“Anti-semetic” is a racist term as it applies to ethnic Jews. If you don’t understand that then you are the one lacking in understanding of common usage of racial terms.
“We pointed out you’re anti-semite (a jew hater, if you don’t know the meaning of that expression in current english) – why else would you continue to spread such vicious libel? ”
You question presupposes a fact not in evidence, that my statements are untrue. Irrespective, the reason I am stating these truths is a criticism of the policies of the government of the Nation of Israel, not Jews. I feel another invective would be more than appropriate here, but let’s just unpack the rest of your nonsense…oops…
“A Likud government was the first to trade land for peace ”
And in the case of Egypt that has been successful. But the Sinai was not on the list of lands Likud has intended to steal from its founding…they want the land from the Sea to the Jordan.
Am”-(and cheated in the process since it didn’t get what it paid for). Other Likud governments did the same, but you insist that Likud wants to steal all the land from the Sea to the Jordan and shows no signs of stopping. Facts don’t match your narrative”
Try reading a map. The Sinai is not between the Sea and the Jordan. The West Bank is and so Is Gaza. Those are the lands Likud is intent on stealing. The small inroads into Gaza became too costly so they made a tactical retreat to concentrate on stealing more and more of the West Bank one chunk at a time. Theft of Gaza, however, is not off the table, just postponed.
“. You made a slanderous claim of apartheid, which someone who lived under apartheid said, on camera, that not only it’s demonstrably false, it’s also a disrespect to all those who lived in actual apartheid.”
Apartheid Bantustans are an excellent description for the scattered and separated areas remaining under Palestinian control in the West Bank. They are separated by a network of Israeli roads many of which Palestinians are not allowed to use and may not even be allowed to cross. To travel from one Aparheid Bantustan operated by Israel to another Apartheid Bantustan operated by Israel a Palestinian must attempt to pass through an Israeli military checkpoint, and that Palestinian may well be turned back or placed under severe time restrictions.
Learn a little something about what is going on in the West Bank so you do not continue to embarrass yourself with preposterous assertions of slander.
“You have no idea what you’re talking about, you’re simply regurgitating the same handful of bullet points over and over, waiting to see if anything sticks.”
Ok, you obviously have difficulties with detail, distinctions, and absorbing information, so I will give you some links that simplify things for you.
Here you can see the true progress of the Likud land grabs.
http://www.hopeflowersschool.org/images/pal-map_10264b.jpg
If you think that is somehow falsified, you can verify it in detail here,
The light colored areas are the Apartheid Bantustans operated by Isrel, the dark colors are the lands stolen by Israel:
https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_area_c_map_2011_02_22.pdf
Here is a more recent and more detailed map
https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/westbank_2014_final.pdf
Here is a man who negotiated directly with both Israel and Palestine as President of the United States of America, and he will confirm for you my words:
Angemon says
Stardusty Psyche posted:
““Anti-semetic” is a racist term as it applies to ethnic Jews. If you don’t understand that then you are the one lacking in understanding of common usage of racial terms.”
Tsk, tsk. You’re trying to weasel your way out with semantics. Like I said, in current English, anti-semitism is synonym with “jew hater”, and I made that very clear on my posts.
“You question presupposes a fact not in evidence, that my statements are untrue.”
Lol. I’ve pointed out a series of facts that refuted your statements. Likud is trying to steal all the land? No, Likud was the first government to trade land for peace (and to be cheated it the process, since it didn’t get what it bargained for). Apartheid in Israel? Not according to someone who lived under actual apartheid in South Africa. Gaza is a prison camp? Take that up to the PA and Hamas – they’re the ones running it – and Egypt – it controls one of Gaza’s borders.
You can keep flogging those dead horses, but you’re sadly mistaken if you think you can ride them anywhere.
“Irrespective, the reason I am stating these truths”
Which they’re not. Like I said, it’s propaganda created by Jew-haters for the purpose of demonizing jews.
“ The Sinai is not between the Sea and the Jordan. The West Bank is and so Is Gaza. Those are the lands Likud is intent on stealing. The small inroads into Gaza became too costly so they made a tactical retreat to concentrate on stealing more and more of the West Bank one chunk at a time. Theft of Gaza, however, is not off the table, just postponed.”
So you admit that Likud gave back land in teh West Bank but you insist that they’re trying to “steal” it all the same, even though they had it and willingly trade it away (and got cheated in the process – no land and no peace). You’re trying to have your cake and eat it.
“Apartheid Bantustans are an excellent description for the scattered and separated areas remaining under Palestinian control in the West Bank.”
No, it is not. Your nonchalant use of the term is an insult to those who lived under actual apartheid.
“Here you can see the true progress of the Likud land grabs.
http://www.hopeflowersschool.org/images/pal-map_10264b.jpg”
Let’s take a look a the page where that image is featured, shall we? It’s from a biased “palestinian” website
http://www.hopeflowersschool.org/palestine.html
From that page:
“Desperate after WW2, by 1948, the Jews started a war to take land and establish their own state. They took more land than they were given by the UN and, to protect the Palestinians, Jordan invaded the highlands, what became the West Bank, and Egypt took Gaza. As a result, the Palestinians never gained a state of their own.”
This is simply not true by any stretch of the imagination – it’s propaganda meant to demonize Jews and Israel. The first two sentences contradict one another, for crying out loud – why would the Jews start a war to take land and establish their own country if they land had been assigned to them by the UN? Any map that corroborates such a falsehood can’t be trusted, and yet you’re presenting it to was as being demonstrative of “true progress”. Look at the date, for f***’s sake – there was no “palestinian” state in 1946, which is the first image on that sequence. Here, have a bit of history:
In the 1920s, the British and French created the Middle East as we know it (or knew before the islamic state showed up) out of provinces of the Ottoman Empire, who was defeated in WWI. Britain and France drew the boundaries of Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. Previously, the British had promised the Jewish Zionists that they could establish a national home in a portion of what remained of the area, which was known as the Palestine Mandate. However, in 1921, the British separated 80% of the Mandate and created the Arab kingdom of “Transjordan”. It was created for an Arab Hashemite monarch, but the the vast majority of his subjects were “palestinian” Arabs. No attempts to create a “palestinian” state were done then.
What was left of the original Palestine Mandate had been settled by Arabs and Jews – Jews had lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years (even after the Romans destroyed their state in Judea in 70 AD) while Arabs became the dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century AD as a result of the Muslim invasions.
In 1948, the United Nations voted to partition the remaining portion of the original Mandate to make a Jewish homeland. It amounted to 10% of the original Palestine Mandate. And thus Israel was born – an event known in arabic as al nakba or “the catastrophe”.
Now, Arabs could have been pleased with getting 90% of the territory promised to Jews and lived happily ever after. But, as one can guess from the name given to the creation of the state of Israel, they weren’t. The Arab League declared war on Israel on the day of its creation, and five Arab armies invaded Israel with the aim of destroying the newborn Jewish state and push all Jews to the sea (presumably to drown).
That you rely on a page that whitewashes reality in a way that would make Dan Brown blush is a testimony to your lack of credibility, and further evidence that you’re an anti-semite.
“Here is a man who negotiated directly with both Israel and Palestine as President of the United States of America, and he will confirm for you my words”
Jimmy “Israel-Hatin'” Carter? Is that your unimpeachable source? LMFAO!!!!
Linde Barrera says
To Angemon- You presented some excellent facts about Israel in your 4:oo pm post, July 12. Another commenter posted weeks ago about The Peel Commission of 1937, and cited The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem stating to the commission that the land of Israel was purchased from absentee Arabic landlords. A man I know who sympathizes with the Palestinians said to me: “Certain Native American lands were purchased by whites and treaties were drawn up, but most Native Americans did not fare well under the treaties.” I am posting his statement to show how some individuals think and relate the Palestinian/Israel issue with Native Americans/white man’s treaties. There is also a movement on in some Christian churches to enable that church to become a sympathizer of the Palestinian issue, due to “friendly persuasion” on the part of the Palestinian groups involved. One I know of is: The United Church of Christ. I also read on another website, Forum for Middle East Understanding, run by Walid Shoebat, who claims that he and many others were Jordanians, and overnight became Palestinians. He and the others didn’t know why, at first. He also engaged in terrorist activities, but found Jesus Christ, and now tries to rescue Christians in Syria and Pakistan. Angemon, in your opinion, why wouldn’t the wealthy Saudi Arabians or the wealthy Iranians want to help the Palestinians to lead normal lives? Are the Palestinians being used as collateral damage, if that is the correct term, by the Muslim terror groups as one more way to cause extra problems for Israel? I do get that distinct impression. I am grateful for your assistance to help my understanding, as truth and justice are of the utmost importance to me. (Being funny is important too, but not with this subject.) Thank you Angemon.
Angemon says
Linde Barrera posted:
“Another commenter posted weeks ago about The Peel Commission of 1937, and cited The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem stating to the commission that the land of Israel was purchased from absentee Arabic landlords.”
Yes, and according to the Hope Simpson enquiry, not only the Jews paid high prices for the land, they also gave the arab sellers large amounts of money that they weren’t legally bound to.
“A man I know who sympathizes with the Palestinians said to me: “Certain Native American lands were purchased by whites and treaties were drawn up, but most Native Americans did not fare well under the treaties.” I am posting his statement to show how some individuals think and relate the Palestinian/Israel issue with Native Americans/white man’s treaties.”
It would be interesting to know the Native American’s stance on the issue. I know of at least one Native Canadian who doesn’t buy that propaganda:
http://www.israellycool.com/2015/01/15/my-name-is-ryan-and-im-a-very-angry-indian-right-now/
“There is also a movement on in some Christian churches to enable that church to become a sympathizer of the Palestinian issue, due to “friendly persuasion” on the part of the Palestinian groups involved. One I know of is: The United Church of Christ.”
Sadly, that seems to be a consequence of having their hearts are in the right place – they’re open to exploitation through propaganda.
“I also read on another website, Forum for Middle East Understanding, run by Walid Shoebat, who claims that he and many others were Jordanians, and overnight became Palestinians. He and the others didn’t know why, at first. He also engaged in terrorist activities, but found Jesus Christ, and now tries to rescue Christians in Syria and Pakistan.”
I’m aware of who Walid Shoebat is 🙂
“Angemon, in your opinion, why wouldn’t the wealthy Saudi Arabians or the wealthy Iranians want to help the Palestinians to lead normal lives? Are the Palestinians being used as collateral damage, if that is the correct term, by the Muslim terror groups as one more way to cause extra problems for Israel?”
I’d say there are several different reasons why oil-rich countries (or Arab countries in general) want little to have to do with “palestinians”. First there’s ethnic and religious differences. Iranians are mostly shiite persians and Saudis are mostly wahabi – I suspect that none of them looks kindly to mostly sunni “palestinians”. Then there’s the “spit on Israel” reason – it’s better to have “palestinians” as refugees living in squalid conditions and blame and demonize Israel for it.
And finally there’s something that’s probably not pointed out as often as it should be: “palestinians” are jerks, plain and simple. In 1970, the PLO under Arafat sparked a civil war in Jordan. “Palestinians” were killed by the thousands as a result – no one cared because it wasn’t Israel doing the killing. During the 70s and the 80s, “palestinians” also played a major role in the Lebanese civil war. After the First Gulf War, many “palestinians” were kicked out of Kuwait for siding with Saddam, even though Kuwait had funneled many millions of dollars to the PLO. Same thing happened after the defeat and removal of Saddam from power in Iraq: many “palestinians” were forced out because they sided with Saddam and helped him oppress Iraqis. When the Syrian civil war started in 2011, a branch of the Popular Front for the Liberation of “Palestine” sided with Assad and helped fight his opposition. Around 8-10 years ago, the Lebanese army shelled a “palestinian” refugee camp in Lebanon because “palestinian” terrorists attacked army checkpoints (can you imagine the international outrage if Israel did such a thing?).
With such a history behind them, no Arab nation on their right mind would take a chance with “palestinians” – I suspect that if Israel and its population were to vanish tomorrow, Arab nations wouldn’t end their discriminatory treatment of “palestinians”, allow them to become fully-fledged citizens or even let them move in to former Israeli territory and have their own nation. No, they’d trample over “palestinians” and fight one another over the former Israeli territory.
“I am grateful for your assistance to help my understanding, as truth and justice are of the utmost importance to me. (Being funny is important too, but not with this subject.) Thank you Angemon.”
No problem, Linda, glad I could help 😉 Your kind words are appreciated. Take care.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Graven,
“As “Stardusty Psyche” notes, many JW readers are already quite familiar with the Religion of Peace site, and the message about Muslims there is almost identical to, as I have noted, to what Robert Spencer says, ”
Yes!!!
“in any case. So the idea that good Anti-Jihadists here need to be somehow educated about this is ridiculous.”
No!!!
I know there are a lot of threads so none of us can be expected to be familiar with them all. For example, I was not aware that you have noted the similarity between the ROP site statement and any similar statement Robert Spencer has made.
I did provide this to our JW fellows not too long ago:
Robert Spencer—Dr. Jasser says Muslim parents don’t want their parents to become Imams and there’s a reason for that because Islam does teach a violence and a radicalism at the core, that is embedded in the Qur’an, embedded in the teachings of Muhammad that…
… many Muslims obviously don’t want to partake of in their lives because human nature being everywhere the same,…
… people are people, they want to have a job and raise their family and live a life and they don’t want to be bothered with strapping on a suicide vest and killing people and so on.
And so they keep a distance from Islam as it is officially codified and they live lives in accord with generally more Western values
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxcttDHIH7A
AIFD’s Dr. Zuhdi Jasser debates Jihad Watch’s Robert Spencer
OMG, you would have thought I had dunked the crucifix, a rosary, and a statue of the virgin Mary in a bucket of urine.
I mean, I just could not get the folks here to realize that Robert Spencer has a much more humanistic view of Muslims in general than the average JW poster who says things like “all Muslims are culpable” or “a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim”
When I suggested to our fellow posters that Robert Spencer would provide them with sensitivity training toward Muslims in general it was like a match to gasoline here.
” I do not recall anyone referring to him as a “stupid ObamaBot”.
That’s fine, there are a lot of threads. Yes, from time to time I do rather enjoy the creative invectives…ObamaBot is a favorite..I have made it my own, sort of like with gay people and “queer”, black people and “nigger”.
I have had so many preposterous and crude ad hominess thrown at me, I feel like giving a speech at the UN about how one comes to expect that people will say awful things about me.
The last time PJ addressed me he was so mad he didn’t even bother with his usual Star F*ck…I mean, he just spelled it out plain and I was like, tut tut, Mr. Jihadski has quite the burr in his saddle this time, oweee mommeeee!!!!
Oh, that reminds me, somebody told me to call a wahmbulance…that was funny!!!
So what is a poor little Star F*ck Psycho ObamaBot going to do but call a wahmbulance cause my widdoww feewings are wheellyy hurt!
gravenimage says
Angemon and Mirren ably demolish most of “Stardusty Psyche’s” meretricious rot about Israel, so I will just address one point. He wrote:
“…but then I suppose former POTUS Carter is an anti-semite too.”
“Stardusty Psyche” posits this as so outrageous as to be dismissed out of hand—but the truth is that Jimmy Carter is the most appalling antisemite, and the least supportive president of Israel save the current occupant of the White House.
“Jimmy Carter Blames Paris Attacks on Muslim Anger With Israel”
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/01/jimmy-carter-blames-paris-attacks-muslim-anger-israel/
“Jimmy Carter worries that court ruling may hinder his ability to promote jihad terror groups”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/jimmy-carter-worries-that-court-ruling-may-hinder-his-ability-to-promote-jihad-terror-groups
“Jimmy Carter to Hamas-linked ISNA: Use ‘principles of Allah’ to bring peace”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/jimmy-carter-to-hamas-linked-isna-use-principles-of-allah-to-bring-peace
There are scores of similar stories.
And “Stardusty Psyche” is once again flogging the grotesque idea that Robert Spencer is pushing “Muslim sensitivity training” for the filthy Kuffar, when nothing could be further from the truth. He has, in fact, long championed free speech in the face of such perverse “political correctness”.
voegelinian says
Stardusty Psyche says
July 11, 2015 at 8:13 pm
“…the fact that many Jews inside and outside Israel say the same things I am saying about Israeli policy, not because they are racist against their own ethnicity, but because they see a series of gross injustices being perpetrated by the government of Israel.”
Yes; and the fine Jewish Italian journalist, Giulio Meotti, has written some remarkably perceptive commentary on the subject of these particular Jews to whom Stardusty Psyche seems to warm so much — self-hating Jews in (and out of) Israel. For example, see his essay, “Why I Loathe the Israeli Elite”:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14876#.U12PAFeYH_0
voegelinian says
Stardusty Psyche says
July 10, 2015 at 4:39 pm
“Maybe the folks here can take it more readily at
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/statement-on-muslims.htm
as opposed to hearing it from a stupid ObamaBot like me.”
Yes, that explanatory page from the that warms SP’s cockles so is dripping with asymptotic axioms and assumptions; and, alas, it seems most of the Jihad Watch commenting community is ill-equipped to take a robust stance against it — perhaps partially because similar asymptotic tics and reflexes lurk inside their hearts and minds.
P.S.: Since I surmise that SP is a stone cold extreme Leftist and not asymptotic (and not even PC MC, a milder, decaffeinated form of Leftism, with enough Sweet N Low and soy milk to make it palatable even to Conservatives and Centrists) — it would be reasonable to infer that his warmth toward that religion of peace.com page is not because he’s on their page (pun intended), but because he finds it useful for his subversive agenda.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Yes, that explanatory page from the that warms SP’s cockles so is dripping with asymptotic axioms and assumptions; and, alas, it seems most of the Jihad Watch commenting community is ill-equipped to take a robust stance against it — perhaps partially because similar asymptotic tics and reflexes lurk inside their hearts and minds.”
That includes you, voeg – I don’t see you taking any kind of stance against it. As usual, you just chide others for doing, or not, something while you fail to live by your standards. Of course, most of us here are objective enough not to get sidetracked on irrelevant tangents, but feel free to practice what you preach – by all means, do take a “robust stance” against that page and lead by example.
Linde Barrera says
To Voegelinian (Vogue)- Part of your post stated “….tics and reflexes lurk inside their hearts and minds.” I perceive you to be brilliant with technology and written expression, and you know, I am sure, there is a lot of misinformation, even out right lies, out there, on the information highway. Add to that that this website, Jihad Watch, is a free speech site, and I thank God for it. So if commenters are permitted to state their message, (even if some or all don’t like that message) and we acknowledge that commenters may be basing their comments on a lie or partial truth, or they may be advancing their own agenda, can there be any reconcilliation that makes sense between them? My second question to you is, has Israel actually stolen any land? I have heard this over the years from a few people I personally know. Where could they be getting this information? (I don’t hang out with any jihadists.) Lastly, as to the tics and reflexes that lurk inside MY mind, I have no agenda to advance here. I just want the truth, and once I have that, I can disseminate it. Of course, someone said (Pontius Pilate, I think) “What is truth?” but that is a discussion for another day. I look forward to your reply.
voegelinian says
And speaking of asymptotic Counter-Jihad people in Jihad Watch comments, there’s Angemon piping up, right on cue. This is an important issue in the war of ideas which needs to be joined between the Counter-Jihad and those hugging the outer edges of the Counter Jihad and those outside (mostly the PC MCs, but there are a few Leftists capable of rational conversation as well). A provocateur like SP trying to exploit the mealy-mouthed rhetoric of that religion of peace.com page would be a perfect occasion to hash out and clarify this issue; but alas, again, I see no signs that anyone here even grasps it, let alone is willing or capable. And so, until the issue is brought to light, discussed, and rationally dispatched in favor of a clear, coherent platform for the Counter-Jihad, it will likely remain a weak spot in the rhetorical arsenal of the Counter-Jihad.
quotha raven says
To Voeg, who sez:
“A provocateur like SP trying to exploit the mealy-mouthed rhetoric of that religion of peace.com page would be a perfect occasion to hash out and clarify this issue; but alas, again, I see no signs that anyone here even grasps it, let alone is willing or capable.”
Maybe there are some JW readers who think you’ve said it all…)))…Cheers! Quotha R
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“And speaking of asymptotic Counter-Jihad people in Jihad Watch comments, there’s Angemon piping up, right on cue.”
I’ve got no c(l)ue what you’re talking about. What I DO have a clue about is that you often want others to say this or that – even if someone asked you to expand on something you said.
“A provocateur like SP trying to exploit the mealy-mouthed rhetoric of that religion of peace.com page would be a perfect occasion to hash out and clarify this issue”
Which is exactly what I told you to do – lead by example rather than making cryptic statements on what others are supposed to say or not. Or do you expect anyone here to be your lapdog, lashing out at your command to bite the “asymptotics” (meaning anyone who doesn’t mimic you as muslims mimic muhammad) that you see everywhere.
“but alas, again, I see no signs that anyone here even grasps it, let alone is willing or capable.”
So why aren’t you doing it then?
“ And so, until the issue is brought to light, discussed, and rationally dispatched in favor of a clear, coherent platform for the Counter-Jihad, it will likely remain a weak spot in the rhetorical arsenal of the Counter-Jihad.”
Once again, why aren’t you doing it then? Why aren’t you doing what you claim it needs to be done rather than whine about others not being able to do it? Now, if you were actually a Counter-Jihadi (and there’s plenty of posts of you making bogus criticism in ill-faith to Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitzgerald, Raymond Ibrahim, etc.) you would do the deed that would strenghten the CJ movement.
On the other hand, if you are just trying to ride the tailcoat of Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitzgerald, Raymond Ibrahim, etc, by making up bogus criticism, implying that they don’t get it, and that you’re the only one who gets it and that only you have all the truth, knowledge and solutions…
Angemon says
So, voeg, are you going to expose that page for the “asymptoticness” it contains? Or are you just going to whine that no one here can, or will, do it? Your move, bub – put up or pipe down.
quotha raven says
To Angemon –
“…are you going to expose that page for the “asymptoticness” it contains?”
In the spirit of things, Angemon, are you sure that isn’t “asymptoticity” or “asymptoticism” or “asymptotness”?
I have to admit that every time I see any variation of the word, including the original, I feel a distinct headache starting to form just behind my eyebrows, especially if I try to pronounce it or use it. That there’s one dang awkward, user-hostile word. Seems to turn back on itself and bite its own ass, both as a written/spoken word, and as a concept as well.
UNLIKE, I hasten to add, the very delicious “ethical narcissism” our friend introduced to me in these pages. I’m crazy about that one and find myself almost egregiously and gratuitously using the phrase with others…who are usually as delighted as I am with the pithy, self-evident concept that SO hits the mark . Especially here in Portland, Oregon, where there are countless legitimate opportunities to employ it, as in describing the supermarket checkout gal, who yesterday chided me for not bring my own reusable bag for my 100 lbs of groceries. Even my adult, vaguely-lefty son appreciated it…I saw the light go on in his eyes, like an itty-bitty epiphany!
So I guess it wouldn’t be appropriate to accuse Voeg of being “Johnny One Note”…but I wish he’d just ease off that ungainly, pain-in-the-ass word instead of using – and defining – it over and over and over…
And to Voeg, if you read this, consider it both a please and thank you note))))
Cheers! Quotha R
Angemon says
quotha raven posted:
“In the spirit of things, Angemon, are you sure that isn’t “asymptoticity” or “asymptoticism” or “asymptotness”?”
😀
No, I am not. That word gets thrown around so often without any regards for any meaning it might have that I’ve OD’ed on it and, as far as I’m concerned, is no different than letter salad or a meaningless buzzword. Asymptotic tendencies. Phased intangible complexity. Asymptotic spasms. Innovative composite asymptotic methodology. Asymptotic ejaculations. Proactive universal modular framework. Bleargh.
quotha raven says
To Angemon – ” Asymptotic tendencies. Phased intangible complexity. Asymptotic spasms. Innovative composite asymptotic methodology. Asymptotic ejaculations. Proactive universal modular framework. Bleargh.”
One of these made me LOL, but otherwise, Double Bleargh! Cheers! qr
voegelinian says
If quotha raven can think of a better term to denote the phenomon of an anti-Islam person who consciously opposes politically correct multi-culturalism (PC MC) yet still in certain ways harbors certain givens from the PC MC worldview which manifest themselves in the way he or she talks about the problem of Muslims (e.g., anxiously reminding others (and him or herself) that “not all Muslims are bad” to assuage their ethical narcissism), I’m all ears.
P.S.: The reason I chose the term “asymptotic” is that, generally speaking, it denotes the concept of “getting closer and closer, but never quite arriving”. The PC MC person rarely if ever experiences this, because they have already closed their mind to the mountains of data & oceans of dots available out there which, if reasonably assessed and connected, open the person up to a growing horror about Islam and the Muslims who enable Islam. The person who has already opened his mind to these mountains & oceans by, as it were, joining the Counter-Jihad, finds his alarm and horror at that problem increasing with each passing year. But if that person still retains certain givens from the PC MC worldview, a tension will be created in his mind between those givens and his growing alarm & horror. The latter lead him to an open-ended general suspicion and alarm at Muslims; the former tugs at his conscience deformed by ethical narcissism, nagging him about not going too far, lest he succumb to his Inner White Western Bigot.
So if quotha raven can think of a term that encapsulates all that, I’d snap it up in a Trade Tower minute.
quotha raven says
Voeg – How about using a couple of words, more easily digested, like (dare I suggest?)
“unconsciously embracing PCMC” or “stubbornly embracing vestiges of PCMC”.or”mindlessly espousing PCMC or diversity” or “automatically espousing the virtue of diversity”, or “brainwashed” depending on the specific situation you address?
I generally find it’s effective in communicating with words to eschew, within reason, the 25-center in favor of the 10-center(s) at hand. And “asymptotic” is hardly a “one size fits all (situations)” word. OWWIE… Here comes that tiny headache. Cheers! Quotha
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“ the way he or she talks about the problem of Muslims (e.g., anxiously reminding others (and him or herself) that “not all Muslims are bad””
Are they, Dr. Mind Reader?
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- Good morning on you! I am referencing your July 10, 2015, 1:16 am post where you write that you think I am not concentrating, and you were correct! The reason is that I have my nephew visiting me for several weeks, as he does every summer, and his care- givers can take a vacation. He was born with Downs Syndrome because his mom had him at 43. He is a mild mannered, wonderful boy but low functioning, and he needs assistance with everything except walking and eating. He speaks only a few words and has the mentality of a 2nd grader, even though he turns 22 next month. I get no money for this and I am not a heroine, I do it for the justice of it all, because my nephew’s mom died several years ago and my brother, who is a bum, abandoned his son, my nephew. So I became his guardian and advocate to give him a voice. I love my nephew and want to help in any way I can, but he is work! So my concentration hasn’t been what it normally is. Thank you for being astute. I hope you and yours are well.
Jay Boo says
Partnership
Apparently Allah is not so perfect after all.
Thank you Muzzie world for ‘partnering’ with Allah to ‘fix’ women to match your fantasy fetish ideal.
Jay Boo says
Time to cut up Iranian flags
Oops
NPR won’t permit that because Allah’s supremacy is written in script on that flag.
— Maybe a sidewalk painting to step upon then.
mortimer says
Bukhari reports in Hadith no.5780 that the Prophet said ‘We must deal with our enemies with smiles on our faces and curses in our hearts.
Sam Solomon, an ex-Muslim, was a Professor of Sharia Law for 15 years. He writes in in his book about Hijra (“Modern Day Trojan Horse”) “Muda’rat is a Sunni doctrine of deception. It is also another name for takkiya. Not many people know about this doctrine outside the circles of the Ulama or the learned scholars of Islam. Muda’rat simply means flattery, adulation, conformity with deceit, trickery, keeping pace with, wrap, conceal or hide. This deceptive behavior can be practiced with anybody when necessary…Bukhari reports in Hadith no.5780 that the Prophet said ‘We must deal with our enemies with smiles on our faces and curses in our hearts.’ Muhammed went on to say ‘War is deception.’ This deception can be practiced at a personal level as well as at a community level through its leaders and institutions…
In his study of mosques, Solomon writes “takiyya permeates almost all the activities and dealings of Muslims with non-Muslim societies… Takiyya means ‘caution, fear or disguise.’ It permits the suspension, as the need arises, of almost any or all religious requirements–including a total denial of faith–when fearing threat, injury or compulsion of any kind in a non-Muslim society, or even in a Muslim society. Takiyya is practiced by all Muslims, Sunni and Shi’ites alike, and all other Islamic sects.”
Takiyya can be practiced even when under oath (Sura 2:225 ‘Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts.’; 5:89 ‘Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths.’)
Zimriel says
Thanks. I’ll use “Muda’rat” to refer to Islamic deception from now on.
Taqiya isn’t a good word for it on account that it’s too associated with *internal* Muslim disputes – especially Shi’ism. Sunnis will always deny that they use it, even then they’re boasting about their mad deceptive skillz against the enemy.
voegelinian says
There’s more:
Taqiyya (Shia) or Muda’rat (Sunni): tactical deceit for the purposes of spreading Islam.
Kitman: deceit by omission.
Tawriya: deceit by ambiguity.
Taysir: deceit through facilitation (not having to observe all the tenets of Sharia).
Darura: deceit through necessity (to engage in something “Haram” or forbidden).
And my favorite:
Muruna: the temporary suspension of Sharia in order that Muslim immigrants appear “moderate.”
http://islamexposed.org/multimedia-map/a-primer-on-islamic-deceit-taqiyya-kitman-tawriya-muruna-etc/
But Stardusty Psyche is supremely confident that the vast majority of Muslims would never practice any of these, and we thus only have to worry about the TMOE (Tiny Minority of Extremists), against whom Obama is doing a fine job; etc.
gravenimage says
Thanks for reposting that list, Voeg. I refer to it frequently.
Hugh Fitzgerald and Citizen Warrior have had some good pieces on Islamic deception, as well.
quotha raven says
@Voeg – Thanks for that good list of definitions (and spellings) from me, too. I printed it for easy referral. BTW – Starsky Psycho and Linde Barerra are dating!!!! RFLOL Cheers, Voeg! Quotha R
Champ says
BTW – Starsky Psycho and Linde Barerra are dating!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, it seems 😉
Linde Barrera says
To Voegelinian (Vogue) – Please let Quota and Champ know they made my day! I like to describe myself as “64 year old female hag”. My photo, taken in May 2015, is on my Facebook page under my name, so search for it, you can see for yourself, and so can they. Thank you.
Westman says
“In 2014, in an interview with Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks, Aslan described Islam as “a man-made institution. ” That should have made the Iranian Ayatollah and Al-Azhar scholars jump for joy.
FGM is practiced where women are possessions and individual thought and actions are discouraged.
For a parent to restrain a child while FGM is “performed” is an act of cowardice, betrayal, and a capitulation to a social pressure that is based on the equivalence of primitive Witchcraft.
Jay Boo says
FGM is a reminder that it Islam is a cage of thorns pretending to be a rose.
A silk veil always waits f or the opportunity to become a burlap burka .
abad says
It’s Islamic all right – FGM.
Although I did my independent study on pre-Islamic Iran at UA not once did I come across anything on FGM among the Bronze-Age peoples in Iran.
No.
FGM is a Muslim thing, regardless of where Muslims are in the world.
UK, Indonesia, China, Iran, Africa, Pakistan, ad nauseum.
shams78 says
No, you dolt, Female circumcision is sanctioned specfically by the Shafi’i Madhhab but is not required by other Madhahib.
Sunni Muslims in China and Pakistan belong to the Hanafi Madhhab and do not practice female cifcumcision at all. Nobody knows what female circumcision is in China and Pakistan.
Sunni Muslims in Indonesia, Sunni parts of Iran (Iranian Kurdistan and Arab populated Hormuzgan) practice female circumcision, because the Kurds in Iranian Kurdistan and Arabs in Hormuzgan are Shafi’i Sunnis. Indonesians are Shafi’i.
Indonesians and other Southeast asians don’t cut off the whole clitoris. It ranges from cutting off only a small part the size of a grain of rice, to merely pricking the clitoris to extract a drop of blood, or just rubbing the knife over the clitoris.
In the Middle East and Africa they cut the whole clitoris off. It is women doing this to the girls. Men are not involved in the operation.
Now why are you creeps so fascinated with what Shafi’i women in certain countries do to each other? They will deal with this themselves, and either get rid of the practice or not get rid of it and don’t need your help or you sticking your noses into their business. Whether they stop it or not is not your people’s concern.
Angemon says
shams78 posted:
“Nobody knows what female circumcision is in China and Pakistan.”
http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/15979/female-genital-mutilation-many-pakistani-womens-painful-secret/
http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/01/pakistan-india-women-expose-secret-genital-cutting-rite/
shams78 says
Its done by Ismaili Shia Dawoodi Bohra, a minority sect who don’t bother their neighbors and never persecuted non-Muslims in their life. They barely make up a fraction of Pakistan’s Shia population.
Correction: All Pakistani Sunnis and Pakistani mainstream Shia (Twelvers) and Shia Ismaili Nizaris, do not practice female circumcision and have no idea about it at all.
Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra are a secretive insular people and they attain high levels of education and are generally well off. They never declared war on anyone, never performed Jihad by the sword and don’t persecute non-Muslims, they don’t try to force they ways on others, and they don’t even try to convert non-Dawoodi Bohra.
In Gujarat in India, Dawoodi Bohra are known for minding their own business and their Hindu neighbors respect that. You will never hear Hindus complaining about them. Even Hindu nationalists who Muslims. The Dawoodi Bohra in Gujarat got along well with Hindu natiobalist leader Narendra Modi.
Pakistani Sunnis and mainstream Shia likewise leave Dawoodi Bohra alone since they mind their own business, and don’t stick their nose into their practices. They don’t ask them if their women still have their clitorises.
As long as they leave you alone, leave them alone, and keep your mind off their women’s clitorises.
There are no Shafi’i and Dawoodi Bohra in China so I can verify that there is absolutely zero female circumcision among Muslims in China.
Dawoodi Bohra are considered non-Muslims by hardcore fundamentalists, they would be prime targets of the terrorists you profess to despise.
Angemon says
shams78 posted:
“Its done by Ismaili Shia Dawoodi Bohra, a minority sect who don’t bother their neighbors and never persecuted non-Muslims in their life. They barely make up a fraction of Pakistan’s Shia population.”
From “nobody knows what female circumcision is” to “no, no, it’s just a small minority”. Hmmm, one wonders what would happen if one were to dig deeper…
shams78 says
Correction- “Even Hindu nationalists who hate Muslims”.
Out of all Sunnis, Shafi’is practice female circumcision, and out of all Shia, only Dawoodi Bohra practice female circumcision. The Dawoodi Bohra are a miniscule minority who never bothered anyone else in their lives. They are wealthy and well educated and liked by their Hindu neighbors because they mind their own business.
There is no female circumcision problem among Hanafi Sunnis and Twelver Shia.
Jay Boo says
@shams78
off topic
Just curious do you speak Gujarati?
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi shams78
” leave Dawoodi Bohra alone since they mind their own business, and don’t stick their nose into their practices. They don’t ask them if their women still have their clitorises.
As long as they leave you alone, leave them alone, and keep your mind off their women’s clitorises.”
You know, I’m starting to see your point about cultural practices and just letting people do whatever their cultural practice is and not minding about it…
So, from now on here in the USA the cultural practice is going to be to cut the dick off of every Muslim boy. Oh, and it is retroactive, if a Muslim man is in the USA he gets his dick cut off…just our practice, don’t stick your nose into our business…
After all, all cultures are equivalent, who are you to judge our practices? Just mind your own business…oh, and mind your dick if you come into the USA because any Muslim man here…well, chop chop…
shams78 says
@Stardusty Psycho
You know the Dawoodi Bohra do not give a shit about Sunnis and other Shia? Bohra don’t care what happens with Sunnis and other Shia, they literally keep to themselves and never stick their noses in other people’s business. Keep your dickchopping idea and apply it to yourself.
@Jay Boo
No, I know some Indians from Gujarat.
Jack Diamond says
The correct response to respecting barbaric “customs” was the example set by the British Army’s Commander in Chief in India, Charles James Napier, in dealing with Sati (as Robert Spencer has quoted before):
“A story for which Napier is often noted involved Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati by British authorities. This was the custom of burning a widow alive on the funeral pyre of her husband. As first recounted by his brother William, he replied:
“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.”
‘Umdat al Salik is endorsed by Al-Azhar University, including “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) (by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the bazr ‘clitoris’ [this is called khufaadh ‘female circumcision’]).” — ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a victim of FGM, said this: “in Somali where virtually every girl is excised, the practice is always justified in the name of Islam. Uncircumcised girls may be possessed by devils, fall into vice and perdition and become whores. Imams never discourage the practice: it keeps girls pure.”
According to the United Nations Population Fund’s last survey: “The practice of FGM is Egypt is quite prevalent, whereby 91.1 percent of women aged 15-49 has undergone FGM according to the 2008 Demographic Health Survey in Egypt. ”
Now as to how Islamic female circumcision really is, let’s go to the ulema at Islamqa:
“Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.
“The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache.”
“This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.
“Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”
“The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.
“But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:
1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).
2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.
3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.
Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.
In the fatwa of Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqar – the former heard of the Fatwa Committee in al-Azhar – it says:
The calls which urge the banning of female circumcision are call that go against Islam, because there is no clear text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah and there is no opinion of the fuqaha’ that says that female circumcision is haraam. Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended. Even though there is a fiqhi principle which says that the decree of a ruler may put an end to a dispute regarding controversial matters, the decree of the ruler in this case cannot be but either of two things: that it is either obligatory or recommended, and it is not correct to issue a decree banning it, so as not to go against sharee’ah which is the principal source of legislation in our land, whose constitution states that Islam is the official religion of the country.”
http://islamqa.info/en/60314
Either obligatory or recommended and not correct to ban it so as to go against sharia.
shams78 says
@Jack Diamond
Female circumcision is regarded as hnorable by Hannalis, preferred by Malikis, and merely allowed by Hanafis. It is only obligatory by Shafi’is
http://www.muftisays.com/qa/question/1884/does–female-circumcision-have-its-place-in-islaam.html
Hanafis, Malikis, and Hanbalis do not have a female circumcision problem. Most Hanafi women and laymen do not know jack about female circumcision unless they become a scholar or read about it. Female circumcision is only prevalant amongst Shafi’is in Sunnis and amonst Dawoodi Bohra in Shias. The majority of Sunni and mainstream Twelver Shia do not practice female circumcision.
And actually the British should have kept their customs and F-ed off back to Britain instead of invading and pillaging other countries. Apparently opium, growing, dealing and illegal drug smuggling was a national British custom given their behavior in the far east and massive drug dealing. Brits had no right to be in India.
Angemon says
shams78 posted:
“And actually the British should have kept their customs and F-ed off back to Britain instead of invading and pillaging other countries. Apparently opium, growing, dealing and illegal drug smuggling was a national British custom given their behavior in the far east and massive drug dealing. Brits had no right to be in India.”
This is coming from the same individual(s) who assured us that “arabs” improved the “hellholes” of Sicily and the Iberian Peninsula… Apparently, those Italians and Spaniards weren’t very keen on drinking camel piss, mass-murdering jews, killing pagans and discriminating against non-muslims, so the “arabs” had to go there and save them from themselves.
Great set of dual standards, brah!
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Shams78,
“preferred by Malikis”
So children “prefer” to be held down and have body parts hacked off? Would you “prefer” to have your genitals chopped off?
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- Trading between nations is a good thing. Importing drugs and drug dealing are evil. There is always a loophole with every government, dont know why. Boycotts are good. Isolationism has its pros and cons.
Jack Diamond says
any FGM is a problem. That includes the 137,000 estimated cases in England & Wales http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/30/female-genital-mutilation-england-fgm-girls (that number even though it is against British law).
Burning widows alive was not going to be solved by convincing arguments, it was solved by superior threats. btw what were the invading Muslim armies doing in India?
voegelinian says
Yes, there is some variation among the four Mad Hatter Madhahib. I.e., the fanatically deranged Obsessive-Compulsive Muslims who through their fiqh adjudicate the psychosis of Muhammad handed down to them in so doing parse & stipulate 1,001 variations on how to murder, rape, pillage, despoil, attack, sabotage, conquer, and hate the “Enemy” (not to mention how to lie about it when they find themselves in circumstances of weakness).
The variations-on-a-theme one can find shimmering in the tapestry & mosaic of wondrously un-monolithic Islam should not mollify us nor mitigate our alarm, horror, disgust, and reasonable responses seeking ways to protect our societies from the practitioners & enablers (i.e., the Muslims Stardusty Psyche is so cleverly concerned to protect) of this psychopathic madness.
shams78 says
The Dawoodi Bohra are also not native to Pakistan.
Dawoodi Bohra in the South Asian subcontinent are ethnic Gujaratis from Gujarat state in India.
The native ehnicties of Pakistan are the Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis, Pashtuns, Gilgits, Baltis, and Kashmiris.
However there are also some Indian Muslims who migrated to Pakistan at independence in the 1940’s or sojourned in Pakistan for trading and business. They became known as Mohajirs. The vast majority were Sunni although there were minority sects like Bohras.
These Indians Muslims were of ethnicities native to India, like Gujaratis and Urdu speakers. Among them were Dawoodi Bohra ethnic Gujaratis. The Dawoodi Bohra migrants in Pakistan are miniscule and mostly in Karachi where they moved for business purposes. Most Dawoodi Bohra live in Gujarat India.
I stand by my comment about Pakistan, no native ethnicity of Pakistan practices female circumcision. It is practice by immigrant Indian origin Dawoodi Bohra Gujaratis who hailed from India. Pakistani Sunnis and native mainstream Shias don’t practice female circumcision. Just as I would say female circumcision is unknown in America and Britain, discounting immigrant communities.
Angemon says
shams78 posted:
“I stand by my comment about Pakistan, no native ethnicity of Pakistan practices female circumcision.”
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
shams78 says
Your moronic example fails, because Dawoodi Bohra (ethnic Gujaratis) are indeed not a native ethnicity to Pakistan by any sense of the word “native”.
Pakistan is made out of different provinces and areas- Baluchistan (ethnic Baluchis), Sindh (ethnic Sindhis), Punjab (ethnic Punjabis), Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA (ethnic Pashtuns), Gilgit Baltistan (ethnic Gilgitis and Baltis), and Kashmiris.
Ethnic Gujaratis are native to Gujarat state of India. Their ancestral home is Gujarat. They speak Gujarati, a language native to and official in India.
The Mohajir are ehically Indian Muslims who moved to Pakistan. Dawoodi Bohra are ethnic Gujarati Indians hailing from Gujarat, a tiny minority of which moved to Pakistan to trade with the natives. They are not Pakisfani natives, the area they lived in is Karachi in Sindh province and the natives there are ethnic Sindhis,
Angemon says
shams78 posted:
“Your moronic example fails, because Dawoodi Bohra (ethnic Gujaratis) are indeed not a native ethnicity to Pakistan by any sense of the word “native”.”
Let’s see:
1 – You stated that “Nobody knows what female circumcision is in … Pakistan“.
2 – Turns out FGM is practiced in Pakistan
3 – You excused yourself with the claim that is was being done by a minority
4 – Now you’re trying to excuse yourself by saying that the people doing FGM in Pakistan are not native to Pakistan and therefore you’re correct in the assertion you had to excuse yourself from
Textbook example of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, and being used by a poor thinker trying to save face rather than admitting he’s wrong.
abad says
Salaam Shams
Tell Rumi I said Salaam.
Kheili mamnun,
lol
Stardusty Psyche says
shams78,
“Now why are you creeps so fascinated with what Shafi’i women in certain countries do to each other? ”
The mandate is from Islamic law and clerics who are men. Women simply carry out the procedure as another example of male/female segregation in Islam.
“They will deal with this themselves,”
How does a screaming child deal with being held down and having her clitoris cut off by herself? What a truly idiotic statement.
“and either get rid of the practice or not get rid of it ”
Either mutilate children or not mutilate children…whichever way the wind blows, huh? What a disgustingly callous attitude toward child mutilation.
“and don’t need your help or you sticking your noses into their business. Whether they stop it or not is not your people’s concern.”
Children are being mutilated and I claim for myself the right to be concerned about it any place on Earth. If you had any kind of heart you would be as disgusted and concerned as the rest of us.
Linde Barrera says
To Stardusty Psyche- Thank you for calling out the disgusting shams 78.
Linde Barrera says
To Shams78- It’s telling when you say that “we” shouldn’t be concerned that women perform FGM on baby girls and little girls in the countries you listed. The only reason they do this is to satisfy the adult male Islamist bully – psychos. FGM is a depraved, disgusting practice. And since you defend FGM, that makes you depraved and disgusting too.
shams78 says
I never defended female circumcision. I just think it has jack to do with your business. The women who have been subjected to it don’t want your help, they want to deal with it themselves. No matter, don’t stick your noses into business that doesn’t affect you.
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- Oh sure. Just because a group of people from this area, or a sect of that people from another area don’t bother anyone and dont stick their noses in other people’s business doesn’t make it right. There are many examples of governments and groups that went after and still go after certain people, and usually these certain people don’t deserve to die or be punished as they are. But if you or I are spared, is it correct that we look the other way? I think not. And the babies and girls who are victims of FGM are voiceless. Remember this shams78: ISLAM WANTS ROBOTS NOT THINKERS.
voegelinian says
shams has at least one point (that hasn’t been circumcized yet): that FGM is a Muslim problem, not a Western problem per se. It becomes a Western problem only when it’s part of the vast, cluttered, straggling caravan luggage on the Trojan Camels Muslims are bringing into the West through their invasion-cum-infiltration of our societies.
Even if Muslims continued to practice FGM inside the West into which they were immigrating — but did NOT also have a blueprint for our infiltration, invasion and mendacious & murderous destruction — it would not be a Problem Houston; it would only rise to the level of a major social problem, but not an exigently dire, protracted emergency threatening our lives and infrastructure with stealthy and violent sedition & sabotage.
gravenimage says
The appalling shams78 wrote:
No, you dolt, Female circumcision is sanctioned specfically by the Shafi’i Madhhab but is not required by other Madhahib.
Sunni Muslims in China and Pakistan belong to the Hanafi Madhhab and do not practice female cifcumcision at all. Nobody knows what female circumcision is in China and Pakistan.
…………………………..
More of the “tiny minority of extremists” and “this has nothing to do with Islam meme.
Of course, he later backtracks on this when called out.
More:
In the Middle East and Africa they cut the whole clitoris off. It is women doing this to the girls. Men are not involved in the operation.
…………………………..
The idea that men are never involved in this is, of course, utterly false—the only person prosecuted under Egypt’s “ban” on FGM is a male doctor.
More than this, though—one of the most frequently given reasons for FGM is that Muslim men in many places will not even consider marrying an unmutilated girl. The idea that this is done without reference to men is simply laughable.
And even more salient is the fact that so many Muslim clerics—men all—resist any attempts to genuinely ban FGM.
More:
Now why are you creeps so fascinated with what Shafi’i women in certain countries do to each other? They will deal with this themselves, and either get rid of the practice or not get rid of it and don’t need your help or you sticking your noses into their business. Whether they stop it or not is not your people’s concern.
…………………………..
The idea that Shams is arguing for individual choice in this case is grotesquely ironic—what choice does a little girl have when she is held down by adults and cruelly mutilated?
The idea that decent Infidels should not poke their noses into others’ private sexuality is also grimly absurd—what is forcibly mutilating a girl’s clitoris about but a violent intrusion into her personal sexuality?
More:
Its done by Ismaili Shia Dawoodi Bohra, a minority sect who don’t bother their neighbors and never persecuted non-Muslims in their life. They barely make up a fraction of Pakistan’s Shia population.
…………………………..
Also by implication grimly laughable. The idea that those who mutilate their children just want to be left alone is given the lie in, among other places, Somalia—where FGM is almost 100% and pious Muslims there are also pirating international ships and mass-murdering innocent people at malls and at roadblocks in neighboring Kenya.
Will Shams also claim that Al Shebaab “don’t bother their neighbors”?
He also fails to mention the Sheedi Pakistani Muslims, who also practice FGM.
More:
As long as they leave you alone, leave them alone, and keep your mind off their women’s clitorises.
…………………………..
Again, grimly hilarious. If Muslims as a rule were leaving us alone, we would know little about their foul practices.
More:
There are no Shafi’i and Dawoodi Bohra in China so I can verify that there is absolutely zero female circumcision among Muslims in China.
…………………………..
He had to backtrack on Pakistan…
More:
Dawoodi Bohra are considered non-Muslims by hardcore fundamentalists, they would be prime targets of the terrorists you profess to despise.
…………………………..
This is not surprising. Muslims often declare each other “Takfir” so they can butcher them like Infidels.
But this does not mean that the Muslim victims of other Muslims fail to practice the horrors of Islam themselves.
For instance, the Shia Hazara of Afghanistan have been brutalized and butchered by their Sunni coreligionists, especially the Taliban.
But when the Taliban were ousted, their main assertions of their “rights” was to demand that they be allowed to practice marital rape. *Ugh*.
More:
Out of all Sunnis, Shafi’is practice female circumcision, and out of all Shia, only Dawoodi Bohra practice female circumcision. The Dawoodi Bohra are a miniscule minority who never bothered anyone else in their lives. They are wealthy and well educated and liked by their Hindu neighbors because they mind their own business.
There is no female circumcision problem among Hanafi Sunnis and Twelver Shia.
Female circumcision is regarded as hnorable by Hannalis, preferred by Malikis, and merely allowed by Hanafis. It is only obligatory by Shafi’is
Hanafis, Malikis, and Hanbalis do not have a female circumcision problem. Most Hanafi women and laymen do not know jack about female circumcision unless they become a scholar or read about it. Female circumcision is only prevalant amongst Shafi’is in Sunnis and amonst Dawoodi Bohra in Shias. The majority of Sunni and mainstream Twelver Shia do not practice female circumcision.
…………………………..
Again, Shams tries to make FGM sound like something only practiced by small, insular Muslim sects, with the practice unknown to the larger Ummah.
What crap. FGM is almost 95% in Egypt; in Somalia, it is virtually 100%. 89% in Mali, 88% in Sudan, 69% in Mauritania.
More:
…Brits had no right to be in India.
…………………………..
As Angemon notes, this is simply grotesque. Shams believes the British had not right to be in India, but has no problem with his own coreligionists butchering *82 million* people there—the most horrifying toll of any victims of Muslim savagery.
Yet more:
I never defended female circumcision.
…………………………..
The appalling Shams never condemns it, either. And why would he? It is perfectly Islamic.
What a barbarian.
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- Good morning from Brooklyn, NY! Thank you for your well crafted and accurate response to shams78 on FGM. It is incredible that characters like him can comment so callously on this subject as though FGM were a thing like decorating a client’s house like Frankenstein’s laboratory and wondering why the client didn’t like it and refused to pay for the decorator’s services. Keep up your great work.
shams78 says
Look at how cretinimage tries to conflate peaceful Dawoodi Bohras with Shafi’i Somali pirates who don’t have jack shit to do with each other.
Dawoodi Bohra never declared takfir on anyone, never raised the sword against anyone, and never performed Jihad on anyone. Their teachings are peaceful and they never bother their non-Muslim neighbors. Go ask any Hindu in Gujarat about the Dawoodi Bohra.
What crap. FGM is almost 95% in Egypt; in Somalia, it is virtually 100%. 89% in Mali, 88% in Sudan, 69% in Mauritania.
Cretinimage fails to mention that most of these countries have Shafi’i majorities.
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- I am still waiting for your honest answer to my question, “Are you a Muslim?” The reason I want to know is because if you answer “yes” then that signifies to me you have been brainwashed, whether you believe FGM is good or not, defensible or not. If you answer “No” then that signifies to me you are working as somebody’s spokesman to disseminate propaganda about FGM. By the way, shams78, I would never be deliberately rude to you, but it seems you are more concerned with status quo than justice. I have no use for humans who are not concerned with justice. FGM is abuse.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Linde. Hope you are well.
gravenimage says
The repellent shams78 wrote:
Look at how cretinimage (sic) tries to conflate peaceful Dawoodi Bohras with Shafi’i Somali pirates who don’t have jack shit to do with each other.
………………………………………..
My point was quite clear. shams78 was attempting to posit that FGM is only practiced by small, “peaceful”, isolated Muslim sects. Clearly, many of those Muslims who mutilate their children are neither members of a small group or isolated, nor do most of them abstain from violently attacking Infidels.
Moreover, look at the appalling characterization of those who mutilate their own children as “peaceful”. *Ugh*.
More:
Dawoodi Bohra never declared takfir on anyone, never raised the sword against anyone, and never performed Jihad on anyone. Their teachings are peaceful and they never bother their non-Muslim neighbors. Go ask any Hindu in Gujarat about the Dawoodi Bohra.
………………………………………..
This group makes up only a tiny percentage of Muslims who practice FGM. Moreover, their being so “peaceful” likely has less to do with any intrinsic creed, and more to do with their being a small and often oppressed minority group.
Certainly, no one would extoll the peacefulness of Somalis, who widely practice FGM as well as violent JIhad and brutal Shari’ah law.
More:
What crap. FGM is almost 95% in Egypt; in Somalia, it is virtually 100%. 89% in Mali, 88% in Sudan, 69% in Mauritania.
Cretinimage (sic) fails to mention that most of these countries have Shafi’i majorities.
………………………………………..
And why should this make any difference? Egypt is the most populous Arab country, with a population of over 80 million. No “small minority” here.
And as shams78 himself notes, no school of Islamic jurisprudence actually condemns the horror of FGM:
“Female circumcision is regarded as hnorable by Hannalis, preferred by Malikis, and merely allowed by Hanafis. It is only obligatory by Shafi’is”.
Note, further, that shams78 himself still fails to condemn the atrocity himself. Is anyone here surprised?
shams78 says
cretinimage, I never said Shafi’is were isolated or peaceful. I said clearly that they are an accepted Madhhab of Sunni Islam. I said Dawoodi Bohra are a peaceful sect of people who don’t bother unbelievers.
That being said, what happens between Shafi’is is not your damn business either. The women don’t want your help. Go ask them if they want an arrogant colonialist outsider trying to rescue them and force them to change. The change will come from themselves, women are campaigning against it but don’t want you to interfere.
Stardusty Psyche says
Hi Shams,
Kind of ironic that a “sham” in English is a fraud or a hoax or a scam…but what’s in a name…
More to the point:
“The women don’t want your help. …. The change will come from themselves, women are campaigning against it but don’t want you to interfere”
If FGM is a woman to woman practice why are the women having to campaign for its end? If the change can come from themselves why don’t they just stop doing it?
“The women” are not typically women at the time they are victimized, they are children and virtually powerless against FGM.
Quite obviously these girls need help because it is the very people who should be protecting them from harm who are in fact inflicting a horrible and irreversible deprivation upon their very own children.
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- I hereby bestow upon you a new title: “The Expounder de Facto de Rigueur of FGM”. And just remember, Dr. Josef Mengele (his boss was Hitler) smiled at the children in his work space as he put them to sleep first, then injected chloroform into their hearts, killing them immediately. Often, he performed operations without anesthesia, and he fid not want outside help either! He didnt believe it was anyone’s business but his and his boss! And even though FGM doesn’t normally kill a baby or a girl, it kills her desire to initiate sex and passion. So in effect, the baby’s or girl’s vagina becomes a hollowed out cavity. Finally, if the Creator God endowed females with this gift, who the hell is anyone to take it from them?
shams78 says
Kapil, I have actually met Chaldean Christians and Assyrian Christians living in the west. The Assyrian ones speak Arabic and Neo-Aramaic and Chaldeans speak Arabic. Call them a Kurd at first, and they will correct you politely. Continue to insist on calling them a Kurd, and they will send you on a trip to the hospital..
http://www.jihadwatch. org/2015/07/obama-administration-blocks-attempts-to-fly-heavy-weapons-to-kurds-to-fight-the-islamic-state/comment-page-1#comment-1263573
You are also a very bad liar. Many Assyrians in Iraq speak Eastern Neo-Aramaic, in fact it is the Iraqi dialect of Eastern Neo-Aramaic which is still stable and its only the Syrian variant of Western Neo-Aramaic which is only located in the Monastery town of Maloula and in danger of exintiction and which was attacked by Jabhat al Nusra (Not ISIS).
There are Assyrian immigrants in the west who can speak fluent Neo-Aramaic and they hate Kurds, they think Kurds are their enemy and that the Kurds want to annex Ninevah into Kurdistan while the Assyrians want Ninevah to stay in Iraq as an Assyrian autonomous region. The Assyrians despise the Kurds since the Kurds used to massacre and rape them during Ottoman rule and during the rule of King Faisal. If your lie was true, they would not call themselves Kurds, they would call themselves Kurdistanis. A Kurd has only one meaning, that is an ethnic Kurd, not anyone who lives in Kurdistan..
Your Kapil eyes also failed to notice, that it was a Kurd Sukri Demir who responded to the accusations by the Assyrians against the Kurds, and not an Assyrian Christian themselves.
http://rudaw. net/english/world/31072014
Sukri Demir is an ethnic Kurd and a Muslim and not a Christian, not an Assyrian, not a Chaldean. Demir advocates for the Kurdish cause and Assyrians hate them.
http://rudaw. net/english/kurdistan/180520154
You’ve just blown your sorry cover and your tales about travelling all over the world with these lies of yours. I’m beginning to doubt whether you’ve been to any of the other places you claim to have been in.
shams78 says
Kapil, I have actually met Chaldean Christians and Assyrian Christians living in the west. The Assyrian ones speak Arabic and Neo-Aramaic and Chaldeans speak Arabic. Call them a Kurd at first, and they will correct you politely. Continue to insist on calling them a Kurd, and they will send you on a trip to the hospital..
http ://www.jihadwatch. org/2015/07/obama-administration-blocks-attempts-to-fly-heavy-weapons-to-kurds-to-fight-the-islamic-state/comment-page-1#comment-1263573
You are also a very bad liar. Many Assyrians in Iraq speak Eastern Neo-Aramaic, in fact it is the Iraqi dialect of Eastern Neo-Aramaic which is still stable and its only the Syrian variant of Western Neo-Aramaic which is only located in the Monastery town of Maloula and in danger of exintiction and which was attacked by Jabhat al Nusra (Not ISIS).
There are Assyrian immigrants in the west who can speak fluent Neo-Aramaic and they hate Kurds, they think Kurds are their enemy and that the Kurds want to annex Ninevah into Kurdistan while the Assyrians want Ninevah to stay in Iraq as an Assyrian autonomous region. The Assyrians despise the Kurds since the Kurds used to massacre and rape them during Ottoman rule and during the rule of King Faisal. If your lie was true, they would not call themselves Kurds, they would call themselves Kurdistanis. A Kurd has only one meaning, that is an ethnic Kurd, not anyone who lives in Kurdistan..
Your Kapil eyes also failed to notice, that it was a Kurd Sukri Demir who responded to the accusations by the Assyrians against the Kurds, and not an Assyrian Christian themselves.
http ://rudaw. net/english/world/ 31072014
Sukri Demir is an ethnic Kurd and a Muslim and not a Christian, not an Assyrian, not a Chaldean. Demir advocates for the Kurdish cause and Assyrians hate them.
http ://rudaw. net/english/kurdistan/ 180520154
You’ve just blown your sorry cover and your tales about travelling all over the world with these lies of yours. I’m beginning to doubt whether you’ve been to any of the other places you claim to have been in.
By the way Kurds are Shafi’i and they practice female circumcision.
shams78 says
I confirm from my experience in the west that Chaldeans speak Arabic, and Assyrians speak both Arabic and Neo-Aramaic, anyone can talk with an Assyrian and ask them.
After looking this discrepancy up, Chaldean tend to live more in cities, where Arabic is more prevalent, while Assyrians preserved Neo-Aramaic in their rural villages an of course that have to speak Arabic too since its the national language. However there are some Neo-Aramaic speaking Chaldeans, I looked it up- just haven’t met any yet.
Chaldean liturgy is in Syriac and Neo-Aramaic. That is what they used in their Churches and its their ancestral tongue.
Like Arab Muslims they are fluent in Arabic, I can’t even tell the difference when they speak, if the ones who live in Kurdistan speak Kurdish, it is not because it is their ancestral language, but because they are forced to use it by virtue of being in a Kurdish dominated area just as immigrants in western countries speak English, French, German because they are surrounded by those people. They are not ethnic Kurds and anyone saying that is a massive liar.
And anyone saying Eastern Iraqi Neo-Aramaic is almost extinct is lying too, its the western Syrian Neo-Aramaic that is only spoken in the Monastery town of Maloula and was threatened by terrorists. Neo-Aramaic is still going strong among Assyrians.
They are nice people, can’t say the same for certain people here.
gravenimage says
The vicious shams78 wrote:
They are nice people, can’t say the same for certain people here.
………………………
What he means is that these are all threatened dhimmis, who do not dare say anything critical of their vicious Muslim oppressors. Mohammedans like shams78 would like to see all Infidels forced to be so “nice”.
Joseph says
@ shams78
They are nice people, can’t say the same for certain people here.
_____________________________
We all know that, your here aren’t you! Go away so the nice people here can converse.
shams78 says
cretinimage is lying again, I said the Assyrians and Chaldeans dislike or even hate Kurdish Musims and that they will send people to the hospital if they constantly get addressed as “Kurds”, and here she says that they are “dhimmis”.
Champ says
Save it shamster …
You’ll never convince anyone here that Graven is a “cretin” or that she’s “lying again” …got a mirror?!
Doug says
What a frightening outfit. These people would make great, but very scary, zombies.
abad says
Yeah great costumes for Halloween eh
lol
Linde Barrera says
Just one more reason I hate Islam. Disgusting practice, among so many other evil practices based on evil ideologies.
John C. Barile says
Reza Aslan ought to know that Eritrea is a Muslim Country.
John C. Barile says
It seems I’m mistaken. Muslims comprise one-half of Eritrea’s population.
deja vu says
John C Barile,
No, you were correct the first time. The persecution of Christians in Eritrea is ranked as ‘extreme’ by Open Doors. It currently stands at 9th in the ranking, level pegging with Pakistan and only one percentage point under Iran and Sudan.
Christians number 2.5 million out of a population of 6.7 million. The country is dotted with internment camps where mostly evangelical Protestant Christians are held without trial for an indefinite number of years. Many are locked in overcrowded shipping containers where they suffer in the heat of the day and the below zero nights. If you are particularly unsubmissive, then you are thrown in deep pits in total darkness. They have no lawyers, their families cannot visit them and hear no news of them, in some cases for decades. It is not known whether they are alive or dead.
Reza Aslan is practising ‘tu quoque’ (you too) and his claims have no basis in fact. He only gets away with it because so few people know the facts about the persecuted church in our day – or even care very much.
http://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/
Linde Barrera says
To deja vu- Thank you kindly for your link to opendoorsusa.org and your comment with it. (Reza Aslan, in my opinion, is a phony-baloney.) As a Christian lady, I am committed to tithing (giving 10% to the Lord as your offering). I help support my neighborhood church, and will look into open doors usa. Again, thank you.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
“Hormozgan province is one of the most improvised and undeveloped provinces of Iran.”
Hormozgan is a powderkeg of unrest; it is an improvised explosive province (IEP). Or maybe “improvised” is just a wonky spelling for “impoverished”.
“The followers of the Shafi’ie faith believe that a woman’s sexual desire is harnessed after being cut and whatever she does subsequently become halal, or acceptable to Islam.”
Really? Says what theologian? Once you undergo FGM, anything you do after that is A-okay with Allah — shirk, zina, apostasy, etc. This is great news: FGM is your ticket to Jannah. But isn’t this discriminatory against men, to whom FGM is unavailable? For bonus points on your sharia judge certification test: Discuss whether Caitlyn Jenner is guaranteed entry into Jannah by undergoing FGM.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
Discuss whether Caitlyn Jenner is guaranteed entry into Jannah by undergoing FGM.
Wow, what an utterly disgusting subject, but I’ll bite at the bait. I’ve heard that the Caitlyn’s surgeon left her (it) with a hefty clitoris inches long. This makes her not only one of the newest women on the planet, but one of the hottest.
Sadly, that can’t be said of the millions of lopped Moslimas carrying water on this earth.
***
Up here in Minnesota — a place awash in self-congratulatory liberalism — is of course one crooked pious place. What we did here about 20 years ago was to move clitoridectomy procedures from Dad hacking with a steak knife in the kitchen at home to a medical arts building across the street from a major hospital, the operation performed by a Moslem M.D., of course. Thankfully, they get taxpayer funded healthcare so the Moslem family is not held back by poverty in getting the lop-chop job done without undue risk of infection.
PJG says
You’re joking, of course?
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
No, ain’t joking. Although it’s kept quiet, it’s unavoidable that there are Infidel doctors and nurses who know about what’s going on. But a sure way to end one’s career is to speak publicly about it. Think about it, although almost all doctors and nurses disapprove of killing unborn babies (55 million in America and still counting) few speak openly about it for fear of career ruination. So naturally, thousands of clitorises being lopped in the healthcare milieu is small potatoes in comparison, especially given that the post-fre speech branding would incur charges of racism and bigotry, not just charges of hating a woman’s constitutional right to privacy.
Luba Detweiler says
In my copy of umdat-al-salik translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, there is a notation by the translator in e4.3 saying “…for women, removing the prepuce (Arabic: bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert), (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)” I’d like to hear Spencer’s comment on this detail.
tilda says
I’m not Robert, and I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, but I’ll wade in.
The full quote from e4.3 is:
“Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)
Firstly, the above indicates that FGM is approved by three schools of Islamic law. In other words, FGM is lawful.
Secondly, while (O) indicates that removal of the prepuce is obligatory, it does not say that removal of more than the prepuce is prohibited. The notation maintains a careful silence on this issue.
Thirdly, to say that circumcision is “not obligatory but sunna” OR “is a mere courtesy to the husband” again indicates that FGM is lawful. Once more, the notation maintains a careful silence on what or how much can be removed in the interests of sunna or “courtesy to the husband.”
When reading a legal text keep in mind that what is not said can be as important (or more important) than what is said.
gravenimage says
Bazr *is* the clitoris itself, not the clitoral hood. You have been the victim of whitewash and Taqiyya.
The most common forms of FGM are Type I, II, and III, and the *least* destructive form still involves the full excision of the clitoris.
voegelinian says
Luba Detweiler and tilda are reproducing flawed translations by the Muslim convert “Nuh Ha Mim” Keller (blinder than Helen Keller…) — a translation that anti-Islam writer and scholar of Arabic Mark Durie has long maintained is seriously inadequate. He wrote:
“The Reliance of the Traveller, a respected manual of Shafi’i jurisprudence, states “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris” (section e4.3). [The English translation by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (certified by Al-Azhar University) disguises the true meaning of the Arabic text by offering the following bogus English ‘translation’: “For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert).”
Bold emphasis added by me. (I’m not sure what that single square bracket is doing in that quote.)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/female-genital-mutilation-widespread-in-iraqi-kurdistan
Champ says
60% of women in one Iranian province have undergone FGM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What a sad and disgusting statistic …
islam & company >> their evil knows no bounds.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
I look at this (apparent) women wearing the face mask in the photo above and I think: who sez that Moslems are enervated people incapable of invention and production? Look at that getup, it positively screams innovation. I’ve never seen anything like it. The SBA should give her a business loan so she or her Man can start up a Moslima face mask business. It is time for Prez Barack Hussein to make good on the vision of Moslem entrepreneuralism he spoke of in his most famous apology speech.
My congrats to whomever designed this face mask. It is awesome.
Matthieu Baudin says
I’d thought that Iran was relatively free of the practice of Clitoral Removal so prevalent in Somalia and many other Muslim countries but it seems it’s a problem there too.
It’s probably not useful to use the term Female Circumcision at all as the male equivalent would be complete removal of the penis. Female Genital Mutilation is a better term however even this term doesn’t highlight the fact that the aim of the procedure is to remove the pleasure centre for girls/women as a means to further their subjugation in a truly misogynist social hierarchy.
Let no one forget also that clitoral removal is occurring each week, perhaps each day, in Western European Countries and in North America amongst immigrant Muslim groups. To the disgrace of the authorities in those countries, it is for the most part not being actively investigated and complicit parents are not being charged with the violent child sexual abuse that they are party to.
Credit to Robert Spencer for raising this travesty for our attention. The behaviour of the authorities and social agencies in sweeping this issue under the carpet is the same form of dereliction of duty highlighted in the current UK mass child grooming scandal.
gravenimage says
Female genital mutilation “is a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. It’s a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.” — Reza Aslan
………………………………..
Uh…right. Never mind that Egypt, with a population that is 90% Muslim, has 95% FGM. Somalia, which is virtually 100% Muslim, has virtually 100% FGM.
It is also common in many other parts of Dar-al-Islam, including such non-African places as Iraq, Kurdistan, and Indonesia.
More:
This Al Jazeera article calls FGM a “cultural” practice, but actually it is sanctioned by Islamic law: “Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) (by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the bazr ‘clitoris’ [this is called khufaadh ‘female circumcision’]).” — ‘Umdat al-Salik e4.3
………………………………..
Moreover, when it is suggested that FGM be banned or even just discouraged, it is Muslim clerics who most vociferously oppose such measures. This is very telling.
More:
A new study has found the practice female genital mutilation (FGM) to be common in areas of Iran, refuting repeated government claims that the practice does not exist in the Islamic Republic.
………………………………..
After all, former Iranian president Mahmood Ahmadinejad claimed that homosexuality does not exist in Iran, even though Iran regularly hangs gay people…
More:
The UN noted that Iranian Shiite authorities justified their inaction by framing FGM as a religiously sensitive issue that would cause anti-Shiite sentiment among the Sunni minority if it were banned.
………………………………..
Well, this is grimly hilarious—it’s not as though Shi’ite Iran is known for its “sensitivity” towards Sunnis. Good grief…
More:
Research shows the four provinces associated with FGM also have high rates of other types of violence against women, such as honor killings, child brides, forced marriage and polygamy.
………………………………..
All of this “religious” violence is of a piece.
More:
“Religion is used to justify the practice by all practitioners of FGM,” the research found. Among the Sunni Muslims, a branch known as Shafi’i has the highest rate of the practice.
………………………………..
And why would this be, it FGM had “nothing to do with Islam”?
More:
It is also believed by some that FGM facilitates marriage by reducing the a woman’s sexual desire and helps her to remain virtues and pious.
………………………………..
This also gives the lie to those Taqiyya artists who claim that FGM is often no more than a “nick” or simply the removal of the clitoral hood—how would either of these reduce sexual desire? Only cutting out the clitoris would do this.
More:
The recent study shows that the same religious interpretation dominates the current practice. “They usually believe that FGM was practiced during the early years of Islamic Kingdom when the Prophet’s and Imams’ wives and daughters were circumcised,” Ahmady said.
………………………………..
Yup—everything in Islam comes back to the practices of the baleful “Prophet”.
shams78 says
You just prove your low intelligence with your lame “analysis” of the article time and time again.
All the countries you mentioned have massive Shafi’i populations which is why they practice female circumcision.
Circumcision is not practiced among mainstream Twelver Shia, only the minority, insular Dawoodi Bohra practice it and they mind their own business, don’t harass and don’t attack non-Muslims and never took up the sword, and are considered non-Muslims by extremist fundamentalists.
Female circumcision as practiced in southeast asia in Indonesia, Mindanao and Malaysia, is merely a nick of the clitoris or removal of the clitoral hood. In southeast asia, female circumcision ranges from removing a small part the size of a grain of rice, to merely nicking the clitoris and drawing a drop of blood, to just rubbing a knife over the clitoris. And Southeast Asian Shafi’is don’t practice Taqiyya seeing as they are Sunni.
It is in the Middle East and Africa where they cut off the entire clitoris.
Iran is known for having to be sensitive to Sunnis- because Shias are a minority in the Islamic world and by far outnumbered tremendously by Sunnis, they have to accomodate Sunni sentiments in order to play a role on the Islamic world. Ayatollah Khameini even had to ban the traditional cursing of the first three Caliphs and the wives of the Prophet by Shia because it was severly offending Sunnis.
Iran suffers from multiple separatist movements which would gladly be supported by the Gulf Arabs. There are Sunni Kurdish separatists in Iranian Kurdistan, Sunni Baluch separatists in Sistan, and Shia Arab separatists in Khuzestan.
If Iran bans female circumcision for Shafi’is, it would not only piss off Shafi’i Sunni Kurd in Iranian Kurdistan, but also piss off Arab Shafi’i Sunnis and Persian Sunnis in Hormuzgan, the place mentioned in the article. Hormuzgan is home to Arab Sunnis and Persians sunnis as well, one of the only places where Persian Sunnis are found in Iran.
So far, unlike the Arab Shia in Khuzestan who have a separatist movement and displayed antipathy towards their Persian Shia rulers, the Arab Sunnis and Persian Sunnis of Hormuzgan have largely stayed quiet and have no separatist movement against the government of Iran.
Iran does not want to add to its separatist problems, and tensions with its Sunni neighbors.
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- gravenimage is superb at text analysis. Why should that bother you or anyone? Also, are you a Muslim? I love Muslims, but I hate Islam. I think it is a religion inspired by the devil. I am a Christian, and while I am certainly not a supremacist, or have ever felt that I was better than anyone, I do believe Christianity teaches better core doctrines than does Islam. You should make a comparison and see for yourself.
gravenimage says
The vile shams78 wrote:
You just prove your low intelligence with your lame “analysis” of the article time and time again.
………………………………….
Actually, I only analyzed this article on this one occasion. Is the appalling Shams confusing me with someone else? Surely, decent Infidels must seem alike to him.
More:
All the countries you mentioned have massive Shafi’i populations which is why they practice female circumcision.
………………………………….
And how, exactly, would this be a mitigating factor? Millions of girls and women suffer mutilation in the name of Islam. This is, as I have noted, hardly some sort of small sect. In fact, it is not a sect at all.
More:
Circumcision is not practiced among mainstream Twelver Shia, only the minority, insular Dawoodi Bohra practice it and they mind their own business, don’t harass and don’t attack non-Muslims and never took up the sword, and are considered non-Muslims by extremist fundamentalists.
………………………………….
More word games—the idea that Muslims who mutilate girls are not “fundamentalists”—and by inference must therefore be ‘moderates’ renders the whole concept meaningless.
More:
Female circumcision as practiced in southeast asia in Indonesia, Mindanao and Malaysia, is merely a nick of the clitoris or removal of the clitoral hood. In southeast asia, female circumcision ranges from removing a small part the size of a grain of rice, to merely nicking the clitoris and drawing a drop of blood, to just rubbing a knife over the clitoris. And Southeast Asian Shafi’is don’t practice Taqiyya seeing as they are Sunni.
………………………………….
Shams, of course, hopes we fail to notice that the clitoris itself is scarcely larger than a grain of rice. Even were we to take this at face value—and it is not accurate, as FGM Type I is widely practiced in Indonesia—it would still wind up being a distinction without much of a difference.
More:
It is in the Middle East and Africa where they cut off the entire clitoris.
………………………………….
Again, even if this were entirely accurate and these were the only places that full FGM were practiced—and it is not—these are huge regions, and the suffering would still be immense.
Moreover, Muslims from these regions are now immigrating in vast numbers to the West, and bringing their barbaric practices with them.
More:
Iran is known for having to be sensitive to Sunnis- because Shias are a minority in the Islamic world and by far outnumbered tremendously by Sunnis, they have to accomodate Sunni sentiments in order to play a role on the Islamic world. ………………………………….
“Sensitive”—this means accommodating all sorts of Islamic savagery, lest pious Muslims become homicidal. This is just the sort of “sensitivity” Shams would like to see engaged in by the ‘filthy Kuffar’.
Also, he is admitting here—probably not his intention—that Muslims become violent if not allowed to indulge in Islamic savagery.
Besides, the idea that the Shia are “sensitive” to those they consider heretics is grimly laughable—Sunnis and Shi’ites oppress each other wherever the get the chance. Here are Sunnis complaining of oppression in Shia Iran:
http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the-oppressed-sunnis-of-iran/
It is more likely that Iran does not make a point of this because they do not really oppose it.
More:
Ayatollah Khameini even had to ban the traditional cursing of the first three Caliphs and the wives of the Prophet by Shia because it was severly offending Sunnis.
………………………………….
The “traditional cursing”! How it must aggrieve Mohammedans not to be allowed to indulge in such time-honored Islamic pastimes! Luckily, they can always up the screaming of “Death to America!” and “Death to Israel!”. That might make the poor dears feel a bit better…
More:
Iran suffers from multiple separatist movements which would gladly be supported by the Gulf Arabs. There are Sunni Kurdish separatists in Iranian Kurdistan, Sunni Baluch separatists in Sistan, and Shia Arab separatists in Khuzestan.
………………………………….
Well, this is true. Even such a Shari’ah paradise as the Islamic Republic of Iran has its Muslim discontents. But then, this is true of *any* Shari’ah hell hole.
More:
If Iran bans female circumcision for Shafi’is, it would not only piss off Shafi’i Sunni Kurd in Iranian Kurdistan, but also piss off Arab Shafi’i Sunnis and Persian Sunnis in Hormuzgan, the place mentioned in the article. Hormuzgan is home to Arab Sunnis and Persians sunnis as well, one of the only places where Persian Sunnis are found in Iran…
Iran does not want to add to its separatist problems, and tensions with its Sunni neighbors.
………………………………….
Interesting. First we hear from Shams that FGM is only practiced by a handful of isolated groups—by implication that it has nothing to do with mainstream Islam at all.
Now we hear that if it was banned in Iran, that it would increase tensions with all of its Sunni neighbors, likely raising to the level of violence. Why would this be, if this were a little-practiced phenomenon?
Moreover, what does this say for the very Islamic state of Iran? Either that they do not really oppose FGM very strenuously, or that they do, but are willing to countenance evil to mollify savages.
The fact is that FGM *is* practiced quite widely in Islam, and that resistance to its being curtailed is often based on Islamic grounds. Just another reason to oppose the horror of Islam.
shams78 says
Cretinimage, the separatists in Iran are all ethnic based separatists and they were also seperatists during the time of the Shah. The Arab Shia of Khuzestan, Kurds of Iranian Kurdestan, and Baluchis of Sistan are of all different ethnicities from Persians.
Iran has to accomodate Sunnis because it is surrounded by Sunni neighbors on its southern (Gulf Arabs) northwestern (Turkey) and eastern (Afghanistan and Pakistan) flanks and its Sunnis live very near those borders. If it doesn’t accomdate Sunnis it will be strangled and have zero influence in the Islamic world.
Enemies of Iran will use anything to destabalize Iran, they don’t care about pracfices of ethnicites in Iran as long as they will help destabalize the Iranians. Just like Jewish Zionists siding with Azerbaijan against Iran and Armenia.
Different Madhahib have different opinions and Sunni Hanafis can’t just go up to Sunni Shafi’is and tell them to stop female circumcision. The differences of opinion among Madhahib are respected by each other according to Islamic practice and not forced down each others’s throats.
Thats why Shafi’is likewise cannot go around and force Hanafis to practice female circumcision.
Dawoodi Bohra act like Mennonites in western countries. They keep their practices to their own, don’t harass non believers and don’t bother trying to convert others. What they do is not your concern.
gravenimage says
Yet more from the appalling shams78:
Cretinimage (sic), the separatists in Iran are all ethnic based separatists and they were also seperatists during the time of the Shah. The Arab Shia of Khuzestan, Kurds of Iranian Kurdestan, and Baluchis of Sistan are of all different ethnicities from Persians.
……………………………………
Yes, this is tribal—but it is also Muslim sectarianism. All of these groups are Sunni rather than Shia.
And of course this predates the ousting of the Shah in 1979—the homicidal Sunni/Shi’ite split goes back well over a millenium.
More:
Iran has to accomodate Sunnis because it is surrounded by Sunni neighbors on its southern (Gulf Arabs) northwestern (Turkey) and eastern (Afghanistan and Pakistan) flanks and its Sunnis live very near those borders. If it doesn’t accomdate Sunnis it will be strangled and have zero influence in the Islamic world.
……………………………………
If the Shia really morally opposed mutilating women they would not “accommodate” such barbarism.
More:
Enemies of Iran will use anything to destabalize Iran, they don’t care about pracfices of ethnicites in Iran as long as they will help destabalize the Iranians. Just like Jewish Zionists siding with Azerbaijan against Iran and Armenia.
……………………………………
More false moral equivalence. What else would one expect from this vile Mohammedan?
The reason most Muslims hate Iran is because most Iranians are considered “Rafidite dogs”—heretics—by their more orthodox Sunni coreligionists.
More:
Different Madhahib have different opinions and Sunni Hanafis can’t just go up to Sunni Shafi’is and tell them to stop female circumcision. The differences of opinion among Madhahib are respected by each other according to Islamic practice and not forced down each others’s throats.
……………………………………
Hilarious—the sickening shams78 presents forcibly holding down children and mutilating them as a matter of “respect”.
Moreover, Muslims regularly not just disagree by slaughter each other over the most minor of differences—the idea that they fail to oppose FGM because they so respect the differences of their fellow Muslims is grimly laughable.
More:
Dawoodi Bohra act like Mennonites in western countries. They keep their practices to their own, don’t harass non believers and don’t bother trying to convert others. What they do is not your concern.
……………………………………
What *sickening* calumny—Mennonites are not mutilating their children.
And the idea that violence against children is not our concern and that we should countenance any Muslim atrocity out of “respect” for this foul creed is truly disgusting.
Moreover, look what else falls into the category of devout Muslim practice—butchering Infidels and using them a sex slaves. Surely, it would be failing to respect such practices if we were to offer any criticism of these fine Islamic traditions…
shams78 says
cretinimage, the Arab separatists in Khuzestan are Shia, not Sunni. The Arab Shia are the ones driving the separatist movement against Persian Shia. More proof you don’t know jack or are deliberately lying.
In fact is is the Shafi’i Sunni Arabs in Hormuzgan who do not have a separatist movement against Persian Shia rule. Shafi’i Sunni Arabs largely are behaving themselves which is why the Iranian government doesn’t want to aggravate them with the topic mentioned in the article by banning one of their practices. Or they might get pushed to joining their Shia Arab brothers in Khuzestan.
Iran’s enmity with its neighbors is ethnic. Turkic Azerbaijanis are Shia, but they hate Iranian Persian Shia. Azerbaijan is a majority Shia country and a rival to Iran, but Turkic Azerbaijan is allied to fellow Turkic country Turkey which is Sunni.
Sunni Madhahib don’t slaughter each other over differences. By law, the differences of opinion between Madhahib are respected. The fighting and killing in countries like Pakistan is over fault lines like Sufism and Salafism which are not Madhahib.
Dawoodi Bohra don’t kill non believers and don’t own slaves. They never waged war against their non-Muslim neighbors.
Champ says
shams’ wrote to Graven:
You just prove your low intelligence with your lame “analysis” of the article time and time again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
‘shams’ is desperate to silence Graven by claiming that she has “low intelligence” and “lame analysis” ..”time and time again” …when in fact Graven is *highly* intelligent and she offers precision analysis, each and every time. Hmm, seems that ‘shams’ is referring to himself, here. Yep, Graven has fully exposed ‘shams’ for the sham-artist that he is and he can’t STAND it!
Good work, Graven — you’ve turned this slacker ‘shams’ into minced meat.
Denis MacEoin says
Just a note: There is no ‘Shafi’ie faith’, it is not a ‘branch’ of Islam, and Hanafism is not a ‘sect’. Both are simply law schools that differ in minor ways, some harsher, some milder. They tend to be regional, though modern trans-national movement is mixing them. There are four law schools in all. It worries me that someone writing exclusively on Islam does not understand these very basic facts.
Mirren10 says
”It worries me that someone writing exclusively on Islam does not understand these very basic facts”
Are you talking about Robert Spencer, who actually *does* understand these very basic facts, or that fool aslan ? It would be nice if you would make your point more clear.
voegelinian says
Some data from a trip down memory lane, may indicate where Denis MacEoin is coming from (and where he’s going…). (Oh, by the by, what happened to his medical license? I see he no longer posts as “Dr.”…):
Dr. Denis MacEoin says
February 17, 2014 at 11:41 am
Thank you, Semeru, for the first intelligent and factual statements I’ve read among these vile comments. The site seems to be dominated by bigots and losers, not one of whom has the first notion about Islam. You are to be commended.
*****
gravenimage says
February 19, 2014 at 1:53 pm
Dr. Denis MacEoin does appear to have some understanding of the threat Islam presents to Jews, Christians, and Baha’i—and yet he still clearly feels the need to defend Islam. Hardly uncommon, unfortunately.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/dr-denis-maceoins-letter-to-st-james-church/
*****
And back in January of this year, gravenimage detected the distinct possibility that the good “doctor” is an Islamopologist:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/01/islamic-state-executes-women-for-refusing-temporary-marriage/comment-page-2#comment-1187032
*****
I recall at some point many moons ago I gave him a round rib-roasting too; but I can’t find it anywhere…
Linde Barrera says
To Angemon- First, thank you for your prompt reply to me, 7:55 am of today, July 13. I admire and exclaim your stored up knowledge on this subject as I am still in the learning stages about it, and have to really shake my head in disgust as to why there is so much propaganda and disinformation surrounding it, perpetrated by those in the media. Dreadful. Second, I read the interesting Ryan Bellerose article and it gave me new information as well. Third, I would like to add one final point before I put this issue to rest. I have read about the Muslim community (I think it is called the ‘Ummah’) and it is touted as such a wonderful entity, with everyone helping each other and watching out for each other. This cannot really be true, can it, because if it was, then the wealthy Saudis or the wealthy Iranians would have already taken care of their Palestinian ‘Ummah’, regardless of any differences between Shia, Sunni, etc. Is my conclusion logical? Angemon, I am grateful to you for your clear cut and truthful responses. Once I get your answer on this, I don’t think I will have to bother you again! I thank God for Jihad Watch, it’s writers and repliers.
Angemon says
Linde Barrera posted:
“I have read about the Muslim community (I think it is called the ‘Ummah’) and it is touted as such a wonderful entity, with everyone helping each other and watching out for each other. This cannot really be true, can it, because if it was, then the wealthy Saudis or the wealthy Iranians would have already taken care of their Palestinian ‘Ummah’, regardless of any differences between Shia, Sunni, etc. Is my conclusion logical?”
Oil rich states do give money to the “palestinians” – they’ve given hundreds of millions of dollars to the PLO over the last 2 or 3 decades. The PLO uses it for funding terrorism and spread anti-semite propaganda (and Arafat was reported as having a personal fortune of over 1 billion dollars)
As for your question: at first glance, and when looking at the state of things, yes, it may seem that the concept can’t be true. However, if you ask a devout sunni he’ll tell you that shias are heretics. A devout shia will tell you sunnis are heretic, and so on – it doesn’t matter who we consider to be a muslim, it matters who muslims consider to be muslims. The lack of solidarity among muslims is nothing new – when the tsunami hit Indonesia 10 years ago, the Arab states were singled out by their paltry contributions, especially taking into account the size of the tragedy and their huge oil sales income.
That, of course, doesn’t stop muslim nations from siding as one when, for example, trying to get the UN to pass laws making criticism of a religion “hate speech”.
“Angemon, I am grateful to you for your clear cut and truthful responses. Once I get your answer on this, I don’t think I will have to bother you again!”
No problem, Linde, glad I could help 🙂
Linde Barrera says
To Angemon- Your 4:43 pm post of July 13 answered my questions, and thank you once again for your forthright, plainly written message. If it was within my powers, I would award you “JW Treasure Trove of Knowledge Commenter”. But I don’t have such powers. Take good care, Angemon.
Angemon says
I’d have to refuse such an award, Linde. There are more knowledgeable people around here, it wouldn’t feel right taking such an award while knowing that.
Linde Barrera says
To Angemon- You are entitled to your opinion, but you would be wrong. (No flattery, no sarcasm, no kidding! And you know I like kidding around over the other 2.)
shams78 says
Ummah does not exist for the PLO and Arafat.
The PLO helped train Armenian ASALA and Marxist Kurdish PKK to commit attacks against Turkey. While israel supported Turkey, sold them weapons and the zionist lobby in America like Foxman engage in Armenian Genocide denial.
Yasser Arafat called the Indian Hindu PM Indira Gandhi as his sister and maintained close ties with India and pro-Indian, anti-Pakistan PM Sheik Hasina in Bangladesh.
Yasser Arafat invited Serbian PM Milosevic over to Palestine to celebrate Orthodox Christmas. While Milosevic was warring against Albanian Muslims in Kosovo.
israel responded by threatening to arrest Milosevic and turn him over to the ICC for war crimes trials.
Yasser Arafat maintained close ties with Saddam Hussein, and Saddam supported Baluchi Marxist rebels against Pakistan and Saddam voiced his support for India in the Kashmir dispute against Pakistan. Saddam condemned the Chechens for taking arms against Russia and praised Russia and India.
The PLO spat on the Chechen leader Shamil Basayev’s face when he asked them to join them in “Jihad” against the Russians. The PLO condemned the Chechens and affirmed its support for Russia and maintaining its good relations with the Russians.
israel shipped weapons to Pakistan to equip the Afghan Mujahideen against the Russians.
israeli academics like Moshe Gammar wrote hagiographies and books lionizing the Chechens as heroes against Russia, which they portrayed as an evil empire. Zionists were at the forefront of urging America to bomb Serbia.
voegelinian says
shams cites evidence of Muslim-on-Muslim violence as proof that the “Ummah does not exist for the PLO and Arafat.” Thus sham exhibits the same incomprehension of the nature of Islam as the PC MCs and Leftists (and some asymptotics) indulge in — namely, the fallacious principle that, “if Muslims do not behave in lock-step monolithic uniformity, there is no unifying ideology behind & beneath those ostensible internecine divisions that poses a danger to us,”
shams78 says
vogon, first of all, the point was about zionists and israelis siding with terrorists, not vice versa, secondly, I did not mention “Muslim on Muslim” violence, but outright examples of the PLO allying with non-Muslims against Muslims with absolutely no benefit to the “ummah” at all.
shams78 says
vogon is the same person who claimed Salafism doesn’t exist.
If Vogon actually looked up Salafism he would known that Salafism is a path within Sunni Islam where instead of following one of the four accepted Sunni Madhaahib the Salafis claim to directly follow the Salaf, the first three generations of Muslims after the prophet. Salafism is a real movement distinct from the four Madhaahib and the fact that Vogon claims that Salafism is an invention of people who want to separate radical from moderate Muslims shows that he doesn’t know jack of what he is talking about.
Linde Barrera says
To shams78- Gravenimage was right about you, and I was wrong. Graven said you would return, and I said you wouldn’t come back after your initial messages. As to your detailed information about the PLO, I am surprised that the Palestinians (and Arafat, who is dead many years) have no Ummah. You did not explain why. You also said that Arafat was close to the PM of India, as well as the PM of Bangladesh, but not of the Pakistani leader, who, I bet, was Muslim. You did not account for this either. Do you have a truthful answer, or don’t know? Shams78, the more I learn about Islam, it’s core doctrines, it’s cultural customs, it’s nuances, the more bizarre it appears! I mean no offense to anyone, but there was a great tv series called “The Twilight Zone” from the 1960’s that I watched as a girl. Every aspect of Islam is a parallel to episodes of that show, except that “The Twilight Zone” was meant to surprise and entertain, while Islam intends to demean, degrade and ultimately destroy the human spirit as we know it, and all in the name of “Allah.” I will not succumb to Islam.