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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Raymond Ibrahim: U.S. State Dept. Bars Christians from Testifying about Persecution

Jul 28, 2015 3:39 pm By Raymond Ibrahim

Iraqi ChristiansGatestone Institute

During the height of one of the most brutal months of Muslim persecution of Christians, the U.S. State Department exposed its double standards against persecuted Christian minorities.

Sister Diana, an influential Iraqi Christian leader, who was scheduled to visit the U.S. to advocate for persecuted Christians in the Mideast, was denied a visa by the U.S. State Department even though she had visited the U.S. before, most recently in 2012.

She was to be one of a delegation of religious leaders from Iraq — including Sunni, Shia and Yazidi, among others — to visit Washington, D.C., to describe the situation of their people. Every religious leader from this delegation to Washington D.C. was granted a visa — except for the only Christian representative, Sister Diana.

After this refusal became public, many Americans protested, some writing to their congressmen. Discussing the nun’s visa denial, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said:

This is an administration which never seems to find a good enough excuse to help Christians, but always finds an excuse to apologize for terrorists … I hope that as it gets attention that Secretary Kerry will reverse it. If he doesn’t, Congress has to investigate, and the person who made this decision ought to be fired.

The State Department eventually granted Sister Diana a visa.

This is not the first time the U.S. State Department has not granted a visa to a Christian leader coming from a Muslim region. Last year, after the United States Institute for Peace brought together the governors of Nigeria’s mostly Muslim northern states for a conference in the U.S., the State Department blocked the visa of the region’s only Christian governor, Jonah David Jang.

According to a Nigerian human rights lawyer based in Washington D.C., Emmanuel Ogebe, the Christian governor’s “visa problems” were due to anti-Christian bias in the U.S. government:

The U.S. insists that Muslims are the primary victims of Boko Haram. It also claims that Christians discriminate against Muslims in Plateau, which is one of the few Christian majority states in the north. After the [Christian governor] told them [U.S. authorities] that they were ignoring the 12 Shariah states who institutionalized persecution … he suddenly developed visa problems…. The question remains — why is the U.S. downplaying or denying the attacks against Christians?

The testimony of another nun, Sister Hatune Dogan, also made in May, indicates why the State Department may not want to hear such testimonials: they go against the paradigm that “Islam is peace.” According to Sister Hatune:

What is going on there [Islamic State territories], what I was hearing, is the highest barbarism on earth in the history until today… The mission of Baghdadi, of ISIS, is to convert the world completely to the Islamic religion and bring them to Dar Al Salaam, as they call it. And Islam is not peace, please. Whoever says ISIS has no connection to Islam or something like this is, he’s a liar. ISIS is Islam; Islam is ISIS… We know that in Islam, there is no democracy. Islam and democracy are opposite, like black and white. And I hope America will understand. America today has the power that they can stop this disaster on the earth, with other Western countries.

The rest of May’s roundup of Muslim persecution of Christians around the world includes, but is not limited to, the following accounts, listed by theme.

Muslim Attacks on Christian Churches

Pakistan: Three separate incidents involved attacks on churches:

1) On May 28, in the city of Chakwal, south of Lahore, Muslim men destroyed a Protestant church and beat six Christians, including the pastor. Some of those wounded had to be hospitalized. A few days earlier, Pastor Suhail Masih and his companions had been accused by local Muslims of carrying out “proselytism and conversions of Muslims,” according to a preliminary report.

2) Javed David, head of Hope for the Light Ministries in Lahore, and his associates, have been receiving death threats since February. The latest incident occurred in April, but became public knowledge only in May. According to David:

I had been to church in Sheikhupura to attend a meeting with colleagues. It was 8 o’clock in the evening when we left to return to Lahore. We were about to reach the main road when a motorbike drove up and blocked the way. Maybe they were following us. The two bikers were wearing a helmet (sic). One of them came up to my window and spoke to me. “We know what you are doing here,” he said. “Stop building churches. Convert to Islam, which is the true religion. Otherwise we will make a horrible example of you.”… [On another] occasion too, I was going home when a motorcycle stopped in front of me. The driver knocked on the window and threw in a piece of paper. I did not open it before I got home. It said, “This is an Islamic nation. We cannot allow church building. Either you convert to Islam or you leave this country! Stop building churches or you’ll pay the consequences!”

3) On May 29 in Faisalabad, around 2 a.m., a gang of Muslims on motorcycles attacked a church near the Sadar police station. They opened fire on the church and set its main gate on fire, damaging its windows. According to church cleric Dilawar Masih, “Though no human loss was reported in this incident, attackers gave a clear-cut message that Christians and their places of worship are not safe and they may be attacked any time by the terrorists.”

Egypt: Two churches were attacked:

1) On May 16, a homemade explosive device planted next to a Coptic Christian church was detonated around sunset. As the St. George Church in Tamiya (Fayum governorate) was mostly empty at the time, there were no casualties. However, the church’s administrative offices and second floor windows were shattered, creating chaos and panic in the area. Church security cameras captured the two men on a motorcycle, who stopped at the church. One of the men dismounted and placed a bag containing the bomb next to the church, and they then sped off.

2) On Sunday morning, May 31 in Senoras city, Fayum, masked men on motorcycles opened fire on an Evangelical church. Security forces guarding the church briefly exchanged fire with the masked men before they fled on their motorcycles. No one was reported hurt.

Canada: On May 26, a 22-year-old man of Muslim background was charged with alleged hate crimes committed against the St. Catherine of Siena Church and its neighboring elementary school in Mississauga, Ontario. Iqbal Hessan faces five counts of mischief, and over $5,000 in fines. On May 20, the Sacred Heart of Jesus statue that stands in front of the church was covered in black paint and the fingers of its outstretched arms were broken off. Behind the church, graffiti with the words “There is no Jew God” was scrawled across the brick wall along with a drawing of a face labelled “Jewsus.” That vandalism was the fourth time the church was targeted. On April 9, surveillance cameras caught a young man breaking into the church, ripping pages of the Sacramentary book on the altar, throwing them at the tabernacle, and then stealing one of the church’s sound-system speakers. On May 17, a drawing of a hand gesturing with the middle finger was found spray-painted on the front steps of the church. And on May 25, graffiti was sprayed on the school walls.

Algeria: According to Abdel Fattah Zarawi, the Muslim leader of the Salafi party, also known as the Free Front of Algeria, any and all Christian churches remaining in the North African nation must be closed and reopened as mosques. Although the transformation of Christian churches into Muslim mosques is nearly as old as Islam itself — Algeria was Christian-majority and even gave the world St. Augustine before Islam invaded and conquered it in the seventh century — the Salafi leader tried to portray his proposal as a “grievance” against rising anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, especially France. Launched on social media and networks, the Salafi campaign against Algerian churches even calls for the transformation of the nation’s most important churches into mosques — including the Church of Notre Dame d’Afrique in Algiers, the Church of St. Augustine in Annaba, and the Church of Santa Cruz in Oran — since “they have no relation whatsoever to the religion of Algerian Muslims,” in the words of the Free Front.

Saudi Arabia: Sheikh Adel al-Kalbani, former Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca and current prayer leader of Muhaisin Mosque in Riyadh, issued a tweet from his personal Twitter account, saying, “My beloved nation: It suffices me that you shelter me from hearing church bells ringing in you.” Due to his importance, the New York Times once issued an entire spread about al-Kalbani. The “hopeful” theme is how al-Kalbani managed to rise to the top in Saudi Arabia by becoming the first black Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca. No word in any English language media, however, about his abhorrence for Christian churches and their bells.

Turkey: A 900-year-old Christian church in Turkey is to be renovated into a functioning mosque — despite previous governmental assurances that it would be renovated into a museum. Enez’s Hagia Sophia, the name of the ancient church, is located inside the city of Ainos, along the border with Greece and stationed atop a hill, visible to all. Another centuries-old church, Hagia Sophia in Trabzon, along the Black Sea, was reopened in 2013 as a mosque, although it was a museum for many years. Meanwhile, a majority of Turks await there-transformation of the greatest Hagia Sophia (Constantinople’s) into a mosque.

Yemen: A Catholic church was seriously damaged during a Saudi bombing raid around mid-May. The church of the Immaculate Conception in Aden had earlier been occupied by Houthi rebels who had vandalized its interior. The airstrike by Saudi bombers — in support of the Yemeni government in its struggle with the rebels — did further damage to the structure. Only one Catholic priest remains in Yemen. Two priests fled the country to escape the violence, while another, who was out of the country when the fighting began, has been unable to return. Twenty members of the Missionaries of Charities have chosen to remain in the war-torn country, tending to the sick and the poor.

Muslim Attacks on Christian Freedom

Pakistan: On Sunday, May 24, a Christian man in the Sanda neighborhood of Lahore was accused of blasphemy when some Muslims saw him burning newspapers that reportedly contained Arabic verses from the Koran. After the accusation, a Muslim mob caught the Christian, severely beat him, and even attempted to set him on fire. A few months earlier, another Muslim mob burned a Christian couple alive inside a kiln after they, too, were accused of insulting Islam. The Christian youth — named Humayun Masih, said to be “mentally unstable” — was imprisoned and charged under section 295-B of Pakistan’s penal code, which prohibits the desecration of the Koran. After the attack on the Christian youth, the Muslim mob, reportedly thousands, rampaged through the neighborhood and set fire to Christian homes and a church. Christians in the region were attacked, and most fled the region; some of the mob was armed and gunshots were heard….

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Filed Under: Muslim persecution of Christians Tagged With: Newt Gingrich, State Department


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Comments

  1. Charli Main says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 3:55 pm

    The indigenous Christians of the Middle East have been struggling to survive the attacks of the muslim invaders of THEIR ANCESTRAL HOME LANDS for the last 1400 years.
    Muslim invaders that claim that the native Christians of the region are intruders living in Dar al Islam.

    • Huck Folder says

      Jul 28, 2015 at 4:05 pm

      Muslim invaders that claim that the native Christians of the region are intruders living in Dar al Islam.

      LOL

      They were there up to 600 years before bastard mo and cretinous islam were invented.

      • Angemon says

        Jul 28, 2015 at 9:07 pm

        I’d wager that in most, if not all, places it goes far back than 600 years – the natives already lived there before the advent of Christianity, they just converted into it.

    • mortimer says

      Jul 28, 2015 at 4:55 pm

      “The indigenous Christians of the Middle East” are the people on earth most persecuted by Muslims. They have been called ‘The Martyr Church’.

      Obama, Clinton and Kerry have much to answer for looking away from this continuing GENOCIDE.

      Yes, it is a real GENOCIDE.

      • john spielman says

        Jul 28, 2015 at 5:12 pm

        the obamanation who sits in the Oval Office will have to answer to God on the Day of Judgment
        this corrupt administration should be charged with both sedition and corruption

        • abad says

          Jul 28, 2015 at 6:46 pm

          Obama will be joining the Man Downstairs with his Unholy Prophet Magoat.

  2. Huck Folder says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    Can a lawyer like David Yerushalmi or his partner help?
    I highly doubt you would ever get the name of an individual
    responsible for okaying or denying a visa, that would
    create a potential firestorm.

    All anyone can do is amass the statistical evidence,
    from the mouths of the moslem brown-nosers,
    and the restrictions on Christians.

    Is there not ONE Congressman or Senator
    who can raise this and demand an answer?

  3. mike ryan says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    Outrageous!
    Our government has placed the foxes as guardians over the hen house.

  4. Kepha says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 5:59 pm

    Persecution of Christians in the name of affirming sexual perversion has already started in the United States. I’m not surprised at all that Sister Dinah was denied a visa.

  5. gravenimage says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 6:30 pm

    Raymond Ibrahim: U.S. State Dept. Bars Christians from Testifying about Persecution
    ………………………..

    Appalling. These persecuted Christians are exactly the sort of people America should be helping.

    The *only* good sign here is that pressure works—when good Americans showed their outrage, Sister Diana got her visa.

    And while I have not always been an uncritical fan of Newt Gingrich, kudos to him for speaking out here!

    • Peggy says

      Jul 28, 2015 at 7:57 pm

      Not good enough. Just because they reverse the decision when people protest is not good enough as far as I am concerned. What would happen if people didn’t find out about this? How many more decisions are made that people are not aware of and therefore cannot protest about?
      Why is it necessary that people have to step in to right the wrong? Our governments should be working of us because that’s why they are elected and not for some foreign identity. What they are committing is treason and under the freedom of information they have to disclose particulars of this case and relevant people responsible dealth with.
      We, the people, are worn out from all this and most of us have just enough energy to keep alfloat. We don’t have the time and money to keep chasing corrupt beaurocrats and politicians and they are counting on exactly this.
      Something has to change fast or more and more people will be too overwhelmed with their own lives to have anything left to fight the government with.

      • Linde Barrera says

        Jul 29, 2015 at 12:22 am

        To Peggy- This is in response to your 7:57 pm July 28, 2015 comment. First, I want to thank Raymond Ibrahim for his comprehensive reporting and excellent journalism skills. He deserves an award for this article. Second, I share your outrage about persecuted Christians not receiving help from our government, and that ‘We the People” have to constantly be “at the ready” to speak up for what is right, when those backroom dealers in Washington should be doing it. Part of the problem is that our elected officials don’t have a concept of what “statesman” means. Another part is that they each have an agenda from the people or corporations who gave them the most $. Another problem is that bills (laws) that get passed are often tied in with other laws that may or may not have much to do with the other, thereby putting a “spin” on both laws. A fourth problem is that 52% of congress are millionaires, and they didn’t get that way by only earning their salary! Additionally, when I was in Chicago this March volunteering for the Jesus “Chuy” Garcia campaign for Mayor (he lost to Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s first Chief of Staff) I learned there are 2 million people in Chicago who could vote for mayor, but less than 600,000 did! That affects the equation too because a poor voter turn-out gives the impression that people don’t give a good kitty, and the elected person gets the impression that it is all about him/her. So please don’t give up the good fight. Concentrate on one or two issues that inflame you, and let your voice be heard. It helps when others like your neighbors or your church, or co-workers can stand with you. We are talking about important values here, and innocent lives. Good luck and God bless you Peggy. I will continue to call my rep and senators about this critical issue.

        • Peggy says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 9:05 am

          I try to spread the word every chance I get. My job require me to be on the phone quite a bit and I try to work out who I am dealing with and when I think they might be receptive to what I have to say, I tell them about what is going on and to come to this site and also Pamela’s site and learn the truth.
          I do have to be careful because I am dealing with customers here. We have laws against speaking up against Muslims here in Australia too.
          It’s such a long slow road but we must stay on it.

  6. Gary says

    Jul 28, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    “Stop building churches. Convert to Islam, which is the true religion. Otherwise we will make a horrible example of you.”…

    The “True Religion”???

    How true is a faith/religion that has to intimidate individuals into accepting “the truth”?

    As true as it’s father – The father of all lies.

    And he’ll have his day. Oh yes, he’ll have his day….

    “The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

    • Joseph says

      Jul 28, 2015 at 10:49 pm

      @ Gary
      The horrific part of it is in Rev 20:7-9.
      After 1000 years of peace when the devil shall be loosed again for a short time; people will still go up against GOD in an act of defiance. Now how stupid can that be? Humankind, go figure. I sometimes wonder what JESUS sees in us that is that loveable for Him to do what he does, for no man is perfect. Makes me ashamed of myself sometimes.

      • Peggy says

        Jul 28, 2015 at 11:44 pm

        Just as we love our children who are not perfect so do God and Jesus love us. Most of us I hope are good decent people but we are shackled by the evil which rules us, i.e. the elites who use government to keep us powerless. I know that my heart as well as the hearts of people on this site are breaking for our fellow Christians and Jews suffering but it seems that we are not capable of changing anything yet.
        In order to change we must continue to speak the truth and hope that we can get through to enough people to really be careful who they give their votes to. There are people out there who would like to make a change but not enough vote for them.
        Truth is always slow but in the end outlasts the lie.
        Maybe we should all put our thinking caps on and see if we can come up with ideas on how to make real changes. Perhaps someone can start a blog where we can sign petitions.
        Last resort is a very costly action and hopefully we won’t need it.

        • Lia Wissing says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 4:56 am

          Wish you would do that: there’re numbers of petitions I cannot sign because I’m not an American and I don’t live in the USA (which means my zip code is not 5 digits long), so my name is thrown off the petitions. I’d like there to be a place where we, the rest of the world, can make our voices heard, for islam does not only threaten Israel & the USA.

      • Gary says

        Jul 29, 2015 at 12:47 am

        Yes Joseph, our faith is the exact opposite of Islam:

        But God demonstrates His own love towards us, In that while we were sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

        and meanwhile…..

        Muslims go up against GOD in an act of defiance by killing their fellow man, thinking they’ll somehow earn the ability to stand in God’s Holy presence by their bloodthirsty acts.

        Now how stupid can that be?

        As hard as it is to believe, (like those who after 1,000 years of Christ’s Righteous Reign on earth defiantly reject God), muslims will continue to persecute the church – Christ’s body on earth – believing they’ll see paradise because of their… “works”

        They’re being deceived by the enemy of their soul. Satan!

        They’re listening to the father of all lies.

        And, sadly.. they’ll reap what they’ve sown.

  7. tilda says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 12:02 am

    Congress should still investigate, and the person(s) who made the decision should still be fired.

    While they’re at it, the should also investigate what’s going on in the immigration / asylum system.

  8. shams78 says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 12:40 am

    There are different type of Christians.

    The fully native indigenous Middle Eastern Christians, who have their own native Coptic/Syriac/Arabic language rites and national Churches should be fully protected and safeguarded and have the right to self preservation of their racial, ethnic, and religious identities and the right to live in Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine unmolested.. They were the originators of Christianity and its a native religion to them and part of their identity.

    Then there are Christians in Pakistan who are the result of British colonialism 200 years ago. Pakistani Christians are descended from low caste untouchable Hindu Dalits who were deceived into converting to Christianity by British missionaries in the hopes that they would escape the caste system.

    Except they found out, that a Dalit untouchable is still a Dalit untouchable, whether they are Hindu, Christian, or Muslim. The British were responsible for this deception and Britain holds full responsibility for their safety and protection. They should be able to demand British passports and British citizenship since their ancestors were tricked into giving up their Hindu religion by British missionaries on promises of good treatment.

    It was Britain who destroyed the Sikh Empire (which ruled the area of present day Pakistan) and paved the way for the modern Pakistani state. So Britain is responsible for the current existence of Pakistan and its Christian population. Before the British, the Sikhs were waging war and conquering the Punjabi Muslims and Pashtun Muslims of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and they Sikhs were the first to bring those Muslims under non-Muslim rule since Islam was spread to those lands by Mahmud Ghaznavi 1,000 years earlier. Then the British came and attacked and destroyed the Sikh Empire and paved the way for Pakistan.

    There are foreign Christians in countries with no native Christians. What are a bunch of Catholic Priests doing in Yemen, when there are no Yemeni native Catholics? They are not native and they are foreigners, non-citizens and should be considered as aid workers. I assume they don’t proselytize since they work in the open. Yemeni law bans proselytization and bans apostasy.

    Christianity has not been a native religion to the Maghreb region (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia) for over 1,000 years. The native Donatist Church is extinct for 1,000 years and Catholic Churches there are the result of French colonialism and invasion. There are no native Christians, only some apostates and apostasy is illegal there.

    Now there are Protestant evangelical Christian missionaries who are showing up and annoying not only Muslims, but Yazidis and Mandeans as well. I condemn this obnoxious behavior.

    Ethno-religious groups like Yazidis, Mandeans, and others have the right to racial, ethnic, and religious self preservation. They do not proselytize and do not force their beliefs on other peoples. They ban peoples from converting to their religion and they expect the same in return with no proselytizing. They don’t intermarry with other people to preserve their ethnic identity.

    Protestant missionaries need to stop annoying people. The Yazidis are getting angry. And Assyrian Orthodox and Chaldean Catholic Iraqi Christians should clarify that they have nothing to do with these Protestants who are souring otherwise peaceful relations between Yazidis and Christians.

    http ://www.jihadwatch. org/2015/07/pope-francis-appeals-for-release-of-two-bishops-and-priest-abducted-by-muslims-in-syria/comment-page-1#comment-1274011

    shams78 says
    July 28, 2015 at 1:01 pm

    The Pope as leader of the Catholics should condemn and put pressure on Protestant missionaries who seem determined to wipe out the ancient Yazidi and Mandean communities of Iraq. These Protestant missionaries are bent on preying on vulnerable Yazidis and Mandeans and want to destroy their thousands of year old religion and culture by converting them.

    Yazidis and Mandeans have good relations with the local native Syriac Christians the Assyrians and Chaldeans, because those Syriac Christians don’t try to evangelize and convert them. Yazidis sheltered Christians during persecution by the Turks. Yazidis and Mandeans don’t convert and don’t intermarry with outsiders. They don’t let their women date or marry non-Yazidi men.

    The terrorist Da’ish and Al-Qaeda want to wipe them out with physical means and Protesant missonaries want to wipe them out with psychological means. They are waging psychological terrorism against Yazidi and Mandean people.

    Most Yazidi refugees currently fleeing to Europe, particularly Germany are men. Like 90% of them. Because they forbid their women from marrying and associating with non-Yazidi men alot of them didn’t bring their women over to Europe when they fled Iraq and left them in the refugee camps where they are safe from non-Yazidi men. They don’t want their daughters marrying any non-Yazidi, whether they be Arab Muslims or European Christians. They did some honor killings both in Iraq and in Germany when their women were caught with Arab Muslims or Europeans.

    They seem determined to survive, preserve their religion and their ethnicity and blood and customs and its admirable how they’ve persevered for thousands of years. Yazidis are the remnants of thousands of years of Mesopotamian religion and customs.

    Pope Francis should instruct the Chaldean Catholics to help the Yazidis ward off these predatory Protestant missionaries hellbent on destroying the Yazidi people.

    I like how Catholics stopped sending missonaries and those Jesuits everywhere to convert people around 200 years ago, keep it up, stop annoying the native people.

    http ://www.jihadwatch. org/2015/07/proselytizing-for-and-whitewashing-islam-in-teen-vogue/comment-page-1#comment-1272227

    shams78 says
    July 24, 2015 at 6:19 pm

    Speaking of proselytizing, some nefarious and wicked (probably Protestant) missionaries have been targeting helpless and vulnerable Yazidi refugees in Iraq for conversion in exchange for access to visas and aid. They have been distributing religious literature and Bibles to them.

    http ://www.voanews. com/content/yazidis-say-they-are-begin-targeted-for-christian-conversion/2872137.html

    Yazidis mind their own business. They don’t allow others to convert to their religoin and don’t proselytize. And they are the remnants of thousands of years of indigenous Mesopotamian beliefs and traditions. They never waged war on other peoples.

    And a group of malevolent missionaries are trying to take advantage of them in their desperate situation.

    The Yazidis need to be given humanitarian aid, protection and to be left alone spiritually. I condemn Da’ish and these missionaries who are both trying to extirpate the Yazidis from the face of Earth.

    Reply
    shams78 says
    July 24, 2015 at 11:54 pm

    More nefarious behavior.

    http ://www.basnews. com/en/news/2015/06/08/yazidis-unhappy-with-christian-missionaries/

    https ://www.linkedin. com/pulse/christian-missionaries-encouraging-yazidi-kurds-give

    http ://www.christianaid. org/News/2015/mir20150205.aspx

    Reply
    shams78 says
    July 24, 2015 at 11:55 pm

    More nefarious behavior.

    http ://www.basnews. com/en/news/2015/06/08/yazidis-unhappy-with-christian-missionaries/

    https ://www.linkedin. com/pulse/christian-missionaries-encouraging-yazidi-kurds-give

    http ://www.christianaid. org/News/2015/mir20150205.aspx

    Reply

    http ://www.jihadwatch. org/2015/07/pakistan-muslims-offer-bounty-for-murder-of-blasphemer-if-she-is-freed/comment-page-1#comment-1264451

    shams78 says
    July 8, 2015 at 5:07 pm

    Christians in Pakistan are descendants of Hindu Dalits (untouchables) who were lured into converting to Christianity by missionaries during British rule with the hopes of escaping the caste system. Except that they were still dalits and still treated like untouchables. Converting to a different religion doesn’t change your caste status. There are Hindu dalits, Christian dalits, and Muslim dalits (Arzal) who are all treated like crap by their higher caste coreligionists (Brahmins and Ashraf).

    There is a caste system even among the 2,000 year old St. Thomas Syriac rite Orthodox Christians of Kerala in Southern India, the upper Caste St. Thomas Christians claim to be descended from upper caste Hindu Brahmins converted by St. Thomas, while they discriminate against low caste untouchable Christians.

    Hindu Brahmins lord over the lower caste and untouchable Hindu Dalits, and Muslim noble Ashraf lord over the lower caste Muslim Ajlaf and untouchable Arzal.

    Since Pakistani Christians are all descendants of converted Dalit Hindu untouchables, they are of the lowest in the caste system and a minority religion. They are very poor due to their historic untouchable origin and will get treated like untouchables.

    Reply

    • Kepha says

      Jul 29, 2015 at 5:06 pm

      At one point, there weren’t any British, Irish, French, German, Scandinavian, Spanish, etc. Christians. At one point, there weren’t even Greek Christians (in the sense of people of originally Hellenic ethnicity).

      “Now they that were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the Word to none but unto the Jews only. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them; and a great number believed and turned unto the Lord. Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem; and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith. Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul [Paul]; and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Acts 11:19-26).

      Jesus Christ commanded his church to make disciples of all nations, starting in Jerusalem.

      • shams78 says

        Jul 29, 2015 at 5:57 pm

        French, German, Spanish and other identities were formed by Christianity. There were no French, German, or Spanish pagans because they didn’t exist before.

        Iranians don’t bother their native Christian ethnicities like Assyrians and Armenians. However they do have a problem with Protestant missionaries and house Churches targeted towards Persians which have the effect of destroying the native culture, religion and identity.

        Native Middle Eastern Christians also don’t like Protestants trying to convert them and irritating them like they do to Muslims.

        Yazidi and Mandean identities are built around their religions. Without them they are not Yazidi or Mandean. They don’t even want to marry other ethnicities.

        Caste system will never go away in South Asia. If you look at the different castes, they even look different due to thousands of years of forbidding intermarriage.

        Untouchable dalits have a distinct look, different facial features and skin color from other Indians and Pakistanis. Which deviate significantly from accepted standards of beauty. Look at that woman Asia Bibi who was arrested on blasphemy charges. She looks like a stereotypical Dalit.

        British missionaries promised them that their caste would not matter in Christianity and they still get treated like dirt.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 6:16 pm

          The sham posted:

          “French, German, Spanish and other identities were formed by Christianity. There were no French, German, or Spanish pagans because they didn’t exist before.”

          Christianity came into existence before the formation of any of those countries. The people whose descendants are now French, German or Spanish were pagans before the advent of Christianity. As for their identities, go read a book or take a trip every once in a while, will ya? French, German and Spaniards have different languages, cultures and traditions, much like their ancestors had before Christianity, or even the Roman empire, caught up with them.

          “Iranians don’t bother their native Christian ethnicities like Assyrians and Armenians.”

          http://www.christiantoday.com/article/iran.persecution.of.christians.as.bad.as.ever.despite.presidents.promises/49742.htm

        • shams78 says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 9:22 pm

          asininemon back to his old tricks, knowing full well I am talking about ethnic Armenians and Assyrians Orthodox Christians who were born Christian, shows a link to a website talking about former Shia Persian apostates holding house Churches who converted to Protestantism, but doesn’t say anything to leave excuses open to interpretation in case I accuse him of that (he chose a deliberately unclear article that doesn’t mention it, (the fact that those are Protestant apostate Shia Persians) but from the activities referred to in the article they most definitelt are). Armenians and Assyrians don’t hold house Church gatherings and aren’t attacked and don’t have their “new testaments” seized, they have single big bibles. Only protestants have these separate new testaments.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 30, 2015 at 6:02 am

          There’s no trick, dumbass – Christians as a whole are persecuted in Iran, regardless of ethnicity (because ethnicity is oh so important when handling religion, right?) and sect of Christianity they belong to. That’s because of the islamic imperative that Jews and Christians are polytheists and need to be made miserable (by muslims on this world and by allah on the next) for having rejected muhammad as a prophet.

          Go ahead, dolt – show where in the link I gave it says it’s only Protestant or converts from islam to Christianity that are being persecuted while certain Christian sects are left alone based on ethnicity.

        • Wellington says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 10:22 pm

          You achieve, shams78, a very difficult task, to wit, making a little knowledge look like not such a bad thing. You have less than even a little knowledge and you have demonstrated it here at JW on more than one occasion.

          If you have even a morsel of self-respect and understanding left to you (which I doubt you do, so clueless are you), you will go hide your head (and your butt) in some desert for at least the rest of your days. Yes, this is the least you can do.

          Now, be gone with you. You have nothing to say to those of us who understand far more than you do and, besides, you are exceedingly boring, and perhaps this is the most unforgivable of all of your many sins.

        • Kepha says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 10:24 pm

          Shams: Jesus warned us that the world would hate us just as it hated him. And, yes, the cross gives offense to those who think they can save themselves. Go read the New Testament.

          As for “separate New Testaments”, Protestants along with others accept both Old and new Testaments. You can also see volumes containing the New Testament alone, the Gospels alone, or the Epistles alone among the manuscripts preserved from late antiquity (this was not disparaging the rest of the Scriptures, but sometimes determined by primitive binding techniques.).

        • Champ says

          Jul 29, 2015 at 10:58 pm

          LOL, Wellington!!! 😀 😀

        • shams78 says

          Jul 30, 2015 at 3:12 pm

          Asininemon is back spewing more lies.

          Armenian Christians are actually treated like crap by israel Jews who spit on their Priests and harass them every day in Jerusalem.

          Zionist Jews supported and lobbied for the Ottomans and Turkey. The Nasi family, Disraeli, Herzl all supported and lobbied for the Ottomans during their invasions, conquests and massacres of Christians.

          Zionist Jews like Foxman and Shimon Peres helped Turkey with Armenian Genocide denial.

          Zionist israeli Jews are allied with Azerbaijan against Armenia and Iran. The Moldovan bouncer ultra zionist Lieberman has strong relations with Azerbaijan and refused to recognize the Armenian Genocide because of them.

          israel sold Turkey weapons and is currently selling Azerbaijan weapons to use against Armenia.

          Meanwhile Iran supports Armenia against Azerbaijan and Turkey and Iran opened its borders to the Armenians when Turkey and Azerbaijan imposed a blockade and closed their borders.

          During the Safavid era, Iran attacked the Ottomans on behalf of European Catholics like the Austrians who were being beaten and conquered by the Jewish supported Ottoman Turks.

          Jews like the Nasi family and Sinan Reis were helping the Ottomans wage war and conquer European Christians, while Iran was trying to support the European Christians from getting overrun by launching campaigns against the Ottoman’s eastern flank. Catholic emissaries were sent to Iran to help coordinate against the Jewish-Turko attacks against the Christians.

          Jews helped mutilate the body of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch after the Turks hung him during the Greek revolt in the 1820s. While the Turkish army raped and massacred Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks, they spared their Jewish supporters and allies.

          Jewish PM Disraeli voiced support for Ottomans and Central Asian Muslims against Christians while his rival Gladstone championed the cause of Christians in Parliament.

          Herzl lobbied on behalf of the Sultan after the Hamidian massacres of Armenians.

          Sephardic Jews in Al-Andalus castated and sold countless European boys as eunuchs into harems.

          Armenians and Assyrians living in Iran 100% support Iran over israeli zionist Jews.

          Armenians and Assyrians in Iran are not persecuted. Apostates who disseminate Protestant literature and who are holding Protestant house Churches are.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 30, 2015 at 3:26 pm

          The sham posted:

          “Asininemon is back spewing more lies.

          Armenian Christians are actually treated like crap by israel Jews who spit on their Priests and harass them every day in Jerusalem.”

          Let’s see what I posted, shall we?

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/07/raymond-ibrahim-u-s-state-dept-bars-christians-from-testifying-about-persecution/comment-page-1#comment-1274570

          There’s no trick, dumbass – Christians as a whole are persecuted in Iran, regardless of ethnicity (because ethnicity is oh so important when handling religion, right?) and sect of Christianity they belong to. That’s because of the islamic imperative that Jews and Christians are polytheists and need to be made miserable (by muslims on this world and by allah on the next) for having rejected muhammad as a prophet.

          Go ahead, dolt – show where in the link I gave it says it’s only Protestant or converts from islam to Christianity that are being persecuted while certain Christian sects are left alone based on ethnicity.

          AS you can clearly see, the matter at hand is the persecution of Christians in Iran. Nothing in that paragraph counters what I said, let alone proves I lied anywhere. The same goes for the rest of your post, for that matter. The closest you came to doing so is here:

          “Armenians and Assyrians in Iran are not persecuted.”

          Which is just you saying things are such and such because you say things are such and such. But that’s the standard you’ve learn to expect from you: plenty of ad-hominems and irrelevances, and nothing pertaining to facts or the matter at hand.

          Once again, show me where on that report regarding the persecution of Christians in Iraq says it’s only limited to Protestants, regardless of their ethnicity.

        • shams78 says

          Jul 30, 2015 at 5:42 pm

          Show us evidence that Armenians and Assyrians are persecuted by Iran. Your link is from a Protestant run website which is deliberately trying to obfuscate and make it seem as though Iran persecutes Christians when it is only cracking down on Protestant proselytizing. Its blatantly obvious from the activities referred to in the article that those people are Protestant. Holding house Churches and having Protestant distributed New Testaments.

          Unless there has been a massive earthquake which destroyed all the Armenian and Assyrian Churches in Iran and forced them into their homes to hold services and cause their Bibles to split in two with the New Testament falling out, the article 100% refers to Protestant converts.

          Iran allows its Armenian and Assyrian Christians to openly protest against the Turkish embassy over the Armenian Genocide and they can celebrate Christmas and openly hold services in their Churches. They publicize the protests and report it in their news media.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 30, 2015 at 6:15 pm

          The sham posted:

          “Show us evidence that Armenians and Assyrians are persecuted by Iran.”

          How about you showing us they’re not? The truth is, since the 1979 Revolution, the Iranian government has made the construction of churches in Iran, whether they’re, Orthodox, Protestant, or any other denomination, nearly impossible. It also set rules on whom can attend church services (meaning that they prohibit muslim converts from doing so). They’ve also closed several of he “officially recognized” churches. So Christians have their churches closed and are not allowed to pray at home, but it’s not persecution? Get real.

          “Your link is from a Protestant run website which is deliberately trying to obfuscate and make it seem as though Iran persecutes Christians when it is only cracking down on Protestant proselytizing.”

          Both Protestant and Orthodox Christians have the same Bible, which tells them to spread their message. But under islamic law, Christians aren’t allowed to proselytize. I’m calling you out on your BS: when you say that “Armenian and Assyrian Christians are tolerated because they don’t proselyte”, what mean is that they don’t proselyte because they know that, under islamic law, doing so means their life is forfeit. So you, like any good muslim, approve of good dhimmies, who know their place and don’t rock the boat, no matter how their muslim overlords kick them, but you have a visceral hatred of Christians who actually follow the tenets of their religion.

          “Unless there has been a massive earthquake which destroyed all the Armenian and Assyrian Churches in Iran”

          I wouldn’t call the Iranian government an “earthquake” and the closing of churches “destroying”, but carry on with your red herring.

          “and forced them into their homes to hold services”

          So where should Christians have their services if their churches are closed?

          “and cause their Bibles to split in two with the New Testament falling out, the article 100% refers to Protestant converts.”

          Once again, red herring – it’s about persecution of Christians in Iran, and you don’t get to dismiss persecuted Christians just because of their sect. And do keep in mind that muslims who convert out of islam have it particularly hard – are you going to say they don’t matter just because they’re Protestants?

        • shams78 says

          Jul 31, 2015 at 12:47 am

          Asinine, go to Russia and Armenia and see how many Orthodox Priests are going to accost your worthless soul. None of them are craving for your conversion.

          Go ask Armenians and Assyrians in the west, if they are interested in finding new converts to their churches. Go past an Armenian and Assyrian Church and see if they give a damn about you.

          Assyrian and Armenians are better treated and more liked in Iran than by israeli Jews. Their Churches are open and they openly hold services and no Jews are allowed to spit saliva onto their faces unlike in israel where that happens all the time. If a Jew did that in Iran the Armenians and Assyrians would swiftly deal with him.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 31, 2015 at 7:42 am

          The sham posted:

          “Asinine, go to Russia and Armenia and see how many Orthodox Priests are going to accost your worthless soul. None of them are craving for your conversion.

          Go ask Armenians and Assyrians in the west, if they are interested in finding new converts to their churches. Go past an Armenian and Assyrian Church and see if they give a damn about you.”

          That’s all nice and dandy, but the issue here is the persecution of Christians in Iran. Focus, kid, focus!

          “Assyrian and Armenians are better treated and more liked in Iran than by israeli Jews. Their Churches are open and they openly hold services and no Jews are allowed to spit saliva onto their faces unlike in israel where that happens all the time. If a Jew did that in Iran the Armenians and Assyrians would swiftly deal with him.”

          Yeah, I’m sure that Armenians and Assyrians have better in a country where the state shuts down their churches and prohibits them from practicing their religion in their own houses than in a state where a handful of zealots might spit on them. sarc./off.

          BTW, how many Jews are there in Iran? 5,000-10,000, tops? Seeing how official representatives of the Iranian government talk about Israel and Jews, I can imagine how well they have it in Iran…

          Since the 1979 Revolution, the Iranian government has made the construction of churches in Iran, whether they’re, Orthodox, Protestant, or any other denomination, nearly impossible. It also set rules on whom can attend church services (meaning that they prohibit muslim converts from doing so). They’ve also closed several of he “officially recognized” churches. So Christians have their churches closed and are not allowed to pray at home, but they have it better there than in Israel? Get real.

          Also, still calling you out on your BS: when you say that “Armenian and Assyrian Christians are tolerated because they don’t proselyte”, what mean is that they don’t proselyte because they know that, under islamic law, doing so means their life is forfeit. So you, like any good muslim, approve of good dhimmies, who know their place and don’t rock the boat, no matter how their muslim overlords kick them, but you have a visceral hatred of Christians who actually follow the tenets of their religion.

    • Champ says

      Jul 29, 2015 at 5:13 pm

      shamster wrote:

      There are different type of Christians.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Considering the source, I stopped reading right there …

      • Baucent says

        Jul 31, 2015 at 1:47 am

        Shams is well named as his arguments are a total sham,

        “There are two types of Christians…”

        Well genius, lets count how many types for muslims there are, and plenty will accost you on the street to sell their message of the Moon God.

  9. Baucent says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 3:23 am

    You’re a most obnoxious troll. You know what I find “obnoxious behaviour?” It’s the muslim co-religionists of yours going over to Europe and other Western countries and setting up mosques in region that have no historic link to Islam, then going around trying to convert to Islam the local population, be it in Paris, Birmingham, London Sydney or a hundred other cities.
    This muslim evangelism is obnoxious to many.

  10. Lioness says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 10:41 am

    Many churches (and synagogues) in Canada are vandalized by Muslims, the media doesn’t report it because it’s Islamophobic, naturally. A Catholic church in North Vancouver has been repeatedly vandalized recently – no suspect. Even when the perpetrator is caught, the charges are minimal. They call it “mischief”, it sounds so cute, like a little boy stealing candy for a prank. It’s never prosecuted for what it is: Islamic jihad against infidels.

  11. rcourtemanche says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 10:48 am

    The Islamic Party is gaining momentum and will supersede the Democratic and Republican parties. The I Party doesn’t exist?? It must; watch what’s happening.

  12. Kepha says

    Jul 29, 2015 at 11:16 pm

    Followup to my 10:24 post

    I make no apologies for proselytizing. Christ commanded us to make disciples of all nations by preaching and teaching. In any case, both the Muslims and Marxists have no qualms about proselytizing and passing out their literature–whether in complete sets or separate pieces.

    Again, why the New Testament is sometimes bound separately from the Old (and was even done so in antiquity, as a number of ancient codices attest) is that it is less expensive. Further, it may well have been the case for those who commissioned some of the ancient codices that they simply couldn’t afford the number of parchment leaves needed to the whole Bible. Given that the homily in many liturgical churches tends to be taken from the Gospel lesson (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), it would be more imperative for a copy of the Gospels to be handy for a poorer congregation–and they would buy the Epistles, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, etc, as they could afford them.

    In more modern times, the New Testament is sometimes distributed as a “probe” to see how a new translation might be received. And while this is often done by Protestants, I assure you that no group of Christian denominations has more respect for and interest in the Old Testament than certain Protestant ones!

    And as an Evangelical Christian, I will certainly not turn away persons of Muslim background who want to know about Jesus Christ as he is offered in the Gospel (the Good News of Salvation). Considering that the Khomeini-ites have been as oppressive to the Iranians as the Pahlavi regime (and don’t give me the sob story about Mossadegh: he was a bold lion against British concessions but a crippled mouse when it came to the Soviets, partly because of his Tudeh friends who were selling their country for the sake of “internationalist solidarity”), I can understand why Iranians may be questioning their inherited faith and open to being proselytized. BTW, I understand that one of the students who thought up the “Back to Jerusalem” concept in the Chinese churches back in the interwar years was a Christian of Muslim background.

    Further, I am not ashamed of demanding that the purveyors of an international charter of human rights accept it that socialists and Muslims must also accept that they will lose some of their people the Christianity.

    And, do I gather, that you expect me to despise Asia Bibi because her ancestors were Dalit? Can’t do it. As a 20th century American citizen, I was made to confront the tradition of racism in my own country (and it’s a lot more pervasive and complicated as whites looking down on blacks), so perhaps I can sense a similar shortcoming elsewhere and feel uncomfortable about it even in countries whose official media loudly berate my country for this sort of thing.

    And, if in a time when the world’s distribution of wealth was unequal, I’m not going to condemn the missionaries of yesteryear for handing out material aid and education to the despised of various non-Christian societies. Material charity is yet another thing that we’re told to do in the Old and New Testaments. A famous Anglican bishop from Sri Lanka, D.T. Niles, said he couldn’t condemn the “rice Chirstians” because his own grandfather was one. Certainly it is a better thing that telling the unrepentant violent criminals in prison that there’s a religion that blesses their rage and destructive tendencies–something for which Islam in America ought to be notorious and noxious.

    Getting back to Asia Bibi and her Dalit ancestors, I’m not that familiar with South Asia, but among Christians of the Hua-Xia heritage, I’ve taken communion with physicians, professors, and businessmen whose first Christian forbears yoked themselves to boats on the Chang Jiang or worked other people’s fields. “For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might shame the things that are strong, and base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are; that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Jesus Christ, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sacntification, and redemption…” (I Corinthians 1:26-30). “Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus; who existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality of God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men…” (Philippians 2:5-8).

  13. Vivienne Havalant (Leijonhufvud) says

    Jul 30, 2015 at 7:13 am

    Just let me add Middle Eastern Christian refugees landing in Sweden are be persecuted and hounded out of their neighborhoods by Moslems. Why are we taking this scum into our nations?

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