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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Scholars catch up to Spencer, realize ancient Qur’an challenges Islam’s origins

Aug 31, 2015 12:54 pm By Robert Spencer

“Fragments of the world’s oldest Koran, found in Birmingham last month, may predate the Prophet Muhammad and could even rewrite the early history of Islam, according to scholars.” That’s the lead paragraph of the story below, which is dated today. The implication is that the text existed before it became part of the Qur’an — which would completely demolish the Islamic claim that the Qur’an was delivered in perfect form through Gabriel from Allah to Muhammad, and wasn’t based on any source texts at all.

On July 22, I wrote this about the same Qur’an manuscript: “So if this is a fragment of the Qur’an as it now stands…and yet it could date from as far back as 568, two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born, it might not be a fragment of the Qur’an at all. It could instead be a portion of some source that later became part of the Qur’an…”

On July 27, I wrote that “this could be a portion of a pre-Islamic source for the Qur’an.”

Glad to see the academics catching up.

birmingham quran

“The ‘Birmingham Koran’ fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad,” by Jennifer Newton, MailOnline, August 31, 2015 (thanks to all who sent this in):

Fragments of the world’s oldest Koran, found in Birmingham last month, may predate the Prophet Muhammad and could even rewrite the early history of Islam, according to scholars.

The pages, thought to be between 1,448 and 1,371 years old, were discovered bound within the pages of another Koran from the late seventh century at the library of the University of Birmingham.

Written in ink in an early form of Arabic script on parchment made from animal skin, the pages contain parts of the Suras, or chapters, 18 to 20, which may have been written by someone who actually knew the Prophet Muhammad – founder of the Islamic faith.

The pages were carbon-dated by experts at the University of Oxford, a process which showed the Islamic holy book manuscript could be the oldest Koran in the world.

The discovery was said to be particularly significant as in the early years of Islam, the Koran was thought to have been memorised and passed down orally rather written.

But now several historians have said that the parchment might even predate Muhammad.

It is believed that the Birmingham Koran was produced between 568AD and 645AD, while the dates usually given for Muhammad are between 570AD and 632AD.

Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: ‘It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged – and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.’

Keith Small, from the University of Oxford’s Bodleian Library, added: ‘This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven….

Or alternatively, some other individual or group used texts that were already in existence and shaped them to fit their own political and theological agenda, as I show in Did Muhammad Exist.

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Filed Under: academia, Featured, Qur'an Tagged With: Birmingham Qur'an


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Comments

  1. Renee says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:01 pm

    Bingo!

    • jihad3tracker says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 1:10 pm

      A TKO?

      IT WILL BE FASCINATING TO SEE HOW MUCH BULLWASH IS DEVOTED TO DEMOLITION ATTEMPTS.

      Of course, we all know how deeply scientific Islam is — so there may be a highly amusing “carbon dating ain’t no real reliable thing” foxtrot.

      • jihad3tracker says

        Aug 31, 2015 at 1:17 pm

        THIS HAS THE FINGERPRINTS OF BEBE NETANYAHU, PAMELA GELLER, AND ROBERT SPENCER ALL OVER IT.

        CHECK THEIR TRAVEL RECORDS, AND IF THEY VISITED ANY CALLIGRAPHY INK SHOPS IN THE LAST TEN YEARS ! ! !

  2. abad says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:12 pm

    So, has it been translated to English yet??

    The truth will be told about the Religion of Death sooner or later.

  3. William says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    Don’t worry. The Mohammedans won’t attack the evidence with valid argument. They have none. Instead, they will attack those who raise the doubt. You will see the Mohammedan paranoia on display soon. How dare you question their religion. It is Islamophobia.

  4. Blitz2b says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    … Will we now see Muslims coming to their senses? Will the debunking of the ” divine revelation” claim by arrogantly brainwashed adherents of the cult of Mohammed finally usher in the “age of Aquarius” for Islam?
    Maybe not…. “The truth shall set you free”, concept does not necessarily ring any bells with the hordes of Islam who are quite happy to indefinitely wallow in the filth of lies spun fourteen centuries earlier…..

    Albeit this could be an excellent anti Islamic apologetic tool, to counter the ridiculous claim by Muslims, that God dictated a (horrible) book…..

    • PRODOS says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 1:45 pm

      Blitz2b asks: “Will we now see Muslims coming to their senses?”

      Many Muslims would like to leave Islam.

      Others are reluctant to become more devout than they are (which is not much).

      Perhaps this finding will at least be helpful to those.

    • Westman says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 8:19 pm

      We tend to make an assumption that if there was no Qur’an there would be no Islam and all would be peaceful.

      The question should be asked: Is the violence and discrimination of the Quran a reflection of Allah and Muhammad or is it a reflection of the demeanor of Muhammad’s followers who would have behaved in the same manner without a Muhammad and Quran?

      • Westman says

        Aug 31, 2015 at 8:48 pm

        Put more clearly, did the demeanor of the people of Muhammads time shape the Quran or did the Quran shape the demeanor of the people?

        • nacazo says

          Aug 31, 2015 at 9:00 pm

          It could be both. I think RS theory is that the Arabs of the 7/8 century had the demanor to conquer vast regions and their demeanor was used to shape the quran from multiple pre-existing sources. In turn, the compilation of the quran definitely caused laws and norms(sharia) that would reinforce this demeanor in new muslims that may not have that demeanor otherwise were not for the quran.

        • voegelinian says

          Sep 1, 2015 at 12:35 pm

          That would be like trying to explain the rise and bloody career of German Nazism without a historical Hitler.

  5. Hokken says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    If Islam was a software it wouldn’t pass the alpha stage.

    • PRODOS says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 1:47 pm

      Unless that “software” was a virus.

    • BossyBear says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 9:40 pm

      Now these points of data make a beautiful line.
      And we’re out of beta, we’re releasing on time.
      So I’m GLaD I got burned.
      Think of all the things we learned
      For the people who are still alive.

  6. Gbox says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:34 pm

    I wonder how many people will die because of this?

    • jihad3tracker says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 1:46 pm

      ————— EXCELLENT QUESTION, GBOX —————–

      This will be quite a motivator for jihad against the filthy blasphemous kuffar.

      • PRODOS says

        Aug 31, 2015 at 1:48 pm

        Carbon is Islamophobic.

  7. Angemon says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    The ‘Birmingham Koran’ fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad

    Since when were muslims dissuaded by facts? They’ll just see it as a satanical ruse to corrupt muslims into straying from the “true” path. Cue in islamic apologists stating carbon dating is unreliable, etc.

    • Huck Folder says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 7:38 pm

      No need, allah is the GREATEST DECEIVER.

  8. Edison says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    Kudos to Robert Spencer for stating something everyone else is only starting to catch up on.

  9. CogitoErgoSum says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    What about the ink? Is there a way to determine its age? As was mentioned before, the parchment could be from an earlier document that was recycled to make this one.

    • rev g says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 2:11 pm

      Carbon dating is inexact. Even accepting the validity of the time window, one cannot jump to the conçlusion that these fragments predate Moe. The window establishes a probable time period during which the fragments originated. Nothing more. It should be used only to bolster provenance, never to assert or debunk it.

  10. mortimer says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    Robert Spencer’s books have brought up similar facts about Islam’s obscure origins. Good historians always begin with skepticism. They always begin by asking ‘what really happened?’

    Carbon dating shows only when an animal died (before the skin was made into parchment). The ink on this parchment may have been applied much later. This parchment also had previous script that was apparently washed or scraped off. However, the shape of the letters should provide a window of about 50 years to identify the time period, because handwriting styles change every 25 years.

    I have not read a handwriting-script expert date the SCRIPT of these texts. That would be a more valid dating method.

    • Dhimmiwit says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 5:18 pm

      Well, was this manuscript not mistakenly stored inside the pages of another much later Qur’an with its handwriting being described as almost identical to that one? Surely that should tell us something?

      And if indeed this is as you suggest – a Palimpsest (I didn’t know this had been verified), then the script was most probably written many decades after the animal from which the parchment was made died. This whole thing just gets more and more ridiculous.

  11. Linde Barrera says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    With no flattery intended, Robert Spencer is a brilliant thinker and interesting writer. Love this website too.

    • Westman says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 9:01 pm

      Hi Linde,

      I also enjoy the thoughtful discussion and World Jihad info. I would like to refer this site to some neighbors and relatives but the suggestive and provocative ” sponsored” advertising graphics don’t meet the community standard. I sometimes wonder if they interfere with the credibility of the site for both Infidels and Muslims.

  12. mortimer says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    Dr. Keith Small said: “Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda”

    That is today’s MOST WIDELY ACCEPTED THEORY about the Koran…very well expressed by this scholar.

    There are actually TWO DIFFERENT Korans, the first one being pacifist and tolerant and the second, warmongering and intolerant.

    Most scholars believe Koran 1 and Koran 2 were written by different authors.

    • CogitoErgoSum says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 2:16 pm

      Two different authors … or several authors …. or one delusional, schizoid, warped and perverted criminally insane maniac.

    • PRODOS says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 3:35 pm

      Mortimer writes: “There are actually TWO DIFFERENT Korans, the first one being pacifist and tolerant and the second, warmongering and intolerant.”

      I agree that the “Medina” verses are war mongering and intolerant.

      But I don’t find the “Meccan” verses to be pacifist or tolerant.

      I’m currently re-reading them and am struck by their pervasive, relentless, raging hostility and contempt. Not just against the Kafir, but against questioning and disagreement of any kind whatsoever.

      • Say No 2 Mo says

        Aug 31, 2015 at 9:49 pm

        I was beginning to think I was the only one that felt that way, all I see is belligerent threats and irrational arguments. Do any of the people that rave about the tolerance and pacifism trie to place themselves in the shoes of Mohammad’s target audience? To me the hostility is palpable. .

        • Jay Boo says

          Sep 1, 2015 at 2:05 am

          in reference to ” tolerance and pacifism ”
          The Koran talks about the “Compassionate and Merciful” Allah.
          I have to admit that is very nice and soothing.

          Except that it creepily repeats it over and over at chapter intros.
          Suddenly what at first seemed like ” tolerance and pacifism ” becomes an ominous veiled threat, especially when viewed in context of the rest of the Koran. It is a reminder that capricious Allah might very easily choose to not be so “Compassionate and Merciful” on a moments notice.

      • mortimer says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 1:16 am

        Koran 1 begins by agreeing with the doctrinal correctness of Jews and Christians and promising them eternal life. It also includes praise for the moon and planets.

        ‘The Messenger’ (not identified as Mohammed) asks those who follow him to be patient and speak politely to those who mock the new religion. He received permission from Allah to use self defense after leaving Mecca. Then Allah repented and decided Jews and Christians were cursed and had to be slain for not believing in Mohammed.

        Much of Koran 1 is misquotes from the Bible, that ‘sort of’ agree with the Bible, but actually don’t agree. For that reason, both the pagans disliked the Meccan ‘messenger’ and Jews and Christians tried to argue with him about the Bible. They thought he was a spirit medium with screw loose, apparently. Mohammed came from a family of spirit mediums (kahanna) on his mother’s side. Anyone who reads the Koran, Sira and hadiths can quickly come to the conclusion that Mohammed (if he existed) was a spirit medium and ‘Gabriel’ was his guide spirit or ‘family spirit’ passed down from generation to generation. Because of descent from Qusay, Mohammed fought to become the owner of Kaaba and its sole oracle.

      • voegelinian says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 12:43 pm

        The Meccan verses are threatening — with veiled threats only a very naive person wouldn’t see — to do what the Medinan verses ended up fomenting. This Mecca/Medina distinction is itself an asymptotic reflex always tyring to find some way of putting lipstick on an ugly -ass camel — thus minimizing the horror, the catastrophe, the disastrously ghoulish and grotesque blight upon Mankind that is the Islam of all Muslims (when it’s not a PC MC spasm — when it’s not Islamic taqiyya…).

      • Jack Diamond says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 1:40 pm

        and in fact Muhammad carefully planned the takeover of Yathrib/Medina from Mecca and made a secret military pact with the Arab Aws & Khazraj (the Pledge of Aqaba) for the destruction of the Jews of Yahtrib (and the Quraish of Mecca) before pretending to befriend the Jews of Yathrib. Muhammad had sealed the fate of those Jews before he ever left Mecca, should they refuse to follow him, even while agreeing to peace with them and praying toward Jerusalem. That’s why he says “war is deceit.”

        What does Muhammad do when he returns to Mecca as conqueror? He orders a man killed for apostatizing and his two singing girl (slaves) and their friend, who used to sing satirical songs about him. Muhammad didn’t change in Medina, he just now had the means to no longer have to be “tolerant.”

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 20, 2015 at 2:30 am

        Agreed–the Meccan verses are somewhat less sanguinary than are the horrific Medinan suras, but this is only by degree. The Meccan suras are not exactly “pacifist” either.

  13. nacazo says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 2:38 pm

    The parchment could be older but the ink was not radio-carbon tested. According to an article in answering-islam.org, the ink style is of a type used after mohamed. The interesting part is that even allowing the birmigham quran to be after mohammed, you find deviations from bthe modern standard quran. Who corrupted the quran????

  14. Don McKellar says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    Only one thing we can be certain of at this point — these scholars are in for a LOT of heat and death threats and perhaps even assassination attempts from the Religion of Peace if they keep this getting down to facts and evidence stuff up!

  15. jayell says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Does any of this really matter? Evil proto-nazi rubbish is evil proto-nazi rubbish, no matter where and when it began its disgusting existence. You still have to get rid of it.

  16. Topnife says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 3:55 pm

    Dating of the parchment to the era of Muhammad does not prove that this is a fragment of the Koran actually written then. The words could have been written much later on a blank sheet of parchment (granted, blank parchment from the era would by difficult to find).
    The ink can also be analyzed, for chemical similarity to inks of that era, and possibly ingredients native to Arabia. One would hope that is underway right now.

    • Zimriel says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 11:21 pm

      difficult to find… unless you assume a sudden glut in the leather supply, coupled with a sudden collapse in demand caused by, I dunno, lots of scholars getting killed during a big religious war.

      Like the aftermath of the Zoroastrian invasion of the Near East and its failure, as happened in the late 620s AD.

    • mortimer says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 1:18 am

      Parchment was a luxury item only the wealthy could afford and would be used only by the caliph or his court. This points to the Koran being recorded by a caliph, but which one.

  17. Hindu American says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    So, basically, Mo was a plagiarist.

    • Bezelel says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 11:01 pm

      Yes indeed.Basically and thoroughly, undeniably, plagiarist.

  18. Harry_the_Horrible says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 3:57 pm

    Don’t want to rain on the parade, but the carbon dating is only for the parchment, not the ink.
    Parchment was expensive back then and frequently scraped, then re-used. Also, IIRC, there was something about the calligraphy being of a “later style.”
    So, it is entirely possible that the parchment IS older than Mad Mo’ but that the writing does date from the correct time. The scientists need to check and see if there is evidence of earlier writing, i.e. a palimpsest.

    • MKG says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 2:09 am

      Excellent point Harry The Horrible. The date of the ink is probebly what the muslims will argue to save face.
      Not that it will really matter, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
      Stay sharp my friend.

  19. Aton says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 4:10 pm

    Interesting. I always did say that many of the Koranic texts came from Saba in 610 AD, after the Marib Dam burst and the Sabaean people were exiled. Certainly Sura 18 could easily predate Muhummad.

    It starts with the obscure Greek story of the Seven Sleepers. Then there is the story of Moses and the Green Man, an obscure story about the biblical Moses. And then we have an obscure story about Alexander the Great.

    So all of these elements could have been written in almost their current form long before the era of Mo.

    • mortimer says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 9:38 pm

      Aton wrote: “all of these elements could have been written in almost their current form long before the era of Mo”

      Indeed. That’s the opinion of Gerd Puin. However, more archeology needs to come to light. It’s possible that Saudi archeologists already have such findings and are hiding them because they add more fuel to the controversy surrounding Islam’s obscure origins. This would not surprise me, because the Saudi government has been smashing ‘pilgrim tourist sites’ celebrating early Islamic figures (mostly likely fake because hotels, condos and parking lots are built on them).

      Probably, the Saudis can tell us all that Islam is fake from all the pre-Islamic artifacts they have stored in boxes in warehouses and that are kept ‘top secret’ or ‘bottom secret’ because they would remove credibility in Islam.

      BTW, I noted weeks ago that the Koran experts in KSA denounced the Birmingham manuscripts as relatively inconclusive in proving anything!

    • Zimriel says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 10:58 pm

      The story of Alexander “dhu’l qarnayn” isn’t *so* obscure. It is based on the Alexander Nes’hana which Heraclius put about right after he’d whalloped the Sasanians. You’re all likely very bored from me bringing up Kevin van Bladel, but…

      Honestly, I think the scholarly dating of this MS is all wrong. *If* it is correct *then* it looks like the Qur’an – in “Uthmanic” order no less – dates to Muhammad’s own lifetime or before. But then if it was so revered, that someone took the time to lay out this codex so carefully – how come we haven’t seen quotes from it dating to the Seleucid era (the era mostly used in Syriac texts) or the era of this or that Sasanian shah? The first quotes we see in bulk are those internal to the Qur’an itself, and the Dome of the Rock.

      • mortimer says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 12:51 am

        The text has not been dated…but the animal skin was dated.

        I don’t get your point about Dhul Qarnayn and ‘obscure’ ??? What are you getting at? Yes, we know the book the story comes from, but how does that date the Koran? Whoever wrote the Koran was trying to dazzle illiterate Arabs with stories that would tickle them and then trick them into dying in battle so the Royal Family of the Kaaba (the descendants of Qusay) would take over the world as Alexander (Dhul Qarnayn) had done.

        According to the stories about the origins of Mohammed’s family, they claimed descent from Qusay who owned the Kaaba. The Kaaba was the source of the family’s authority over other Arabs. Mohammed became the Oracle of the Kaaba which allowed him to take over Arabia. But he was assassinated before he could reach his dream. Very embarrassing to have an insane founder…so the Arabs waited 60 years and rebooted and rehabilitated Mohammed under Abd al Malik.

        The ‘obscurity’ referred to by German scholars is the absence of early historical writings about Mohammed…as well as the absence of early Korans. The foundational period of Islam is ‘obscure’.

        Incidentally, Alexander ended his life declaring himself the Son of God (Amon). I suspect that Mohammed went mad as well and declared himself divine, necessitating his assassination.

        The Koran was collected by Caliph ABD AL MALIK according to his own confession. That would have been between 695 and 705 AD approximately.

        I would like to know what Kevin van Bladel thinks about this.

        • mortimer says

          Sep 1, 2015 at 12:54 am

          Recommended reading:

          “Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins” by Robert Spencer

  20. Antonio Gutierrez says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Voilà!!!

  21. anonamustafa says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 5:52 pm

    Maybe Jihadi John will come out on stage and ask ‘Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?’ a’la Johnny Rotten.

    LMFAO at this finding.

  22. fritz says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 6:33 pm

    Muslims know that there where many versions of the Koran-the so called last version was given out in Egypt ca. 100 years ago.

    I read that still 18 different versions exist..but evry Muslim say-there was always one Koran!Even if they know the story of Koran very good-they cant say yes they are different versions-there is a blockade intheior brain-the same is with Mohammed-tey know he was violent,let people kill,had slaves,sex with a 9 year old girl etc. you will never hear e was a criminal-no they say he is the best archetype.

    they haerd it so many times from little age they cant do other.
    the same is with the joke “Islam is Peace/mercy)”because it was aid where Islam rules there is peace.they see everywhere war and violence but they say no no no Islam is peace is peace is peace….

  23. Bezelel says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    It would make a nice flame.

    • abad says

      Aug 31, 2015 at 7:20 pm

      I’ll bring the marshmallows.

  24. Kilfincelt says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 9:56 pm

    As any number of people have pointed out, what about the dating of the ink on those pages? And I have several other questions. Am I correct that some of the diacriticals are missing? If I am then some of these words may have been mistranslated. Furthermore, my understanding is that written Arabic came from written Syriac. Written Syriac came from written Aramaic. Are we quite sure that these pages are written in old Arabic and not old Syriac or even Aramaic?

    • mortimer says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 12:28 am

      Carbon dating works on matter that was once a living thing and only tells you when the plant or animal died. A chunk of the object must be cooked and destroyed. Ink was never a living thing…anyway, you would have to collect a lot of ink and that would be too destructive of most documents. For documents, they usual take bits that have no writing on them and won’t be missed. Inks are made from iron and acid, so it can’t be used for carbon dating.

      Handwriting analysis has not been mentioned in the news, but scholars worth their degrees would know that’s the way to identify the age. The science is called ‘paleographology’…the study of ancient and historical handwriting. I don’t understand why some scholar hasn’t mentioned it.

  25. Matthieu Baudin says

    Aug 31, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    “… On July 22, I wrote this about the same Qur’an manuscript: “So if this is a fragment of the Qur’an as it now stands…and yet it could date from as far back as 568, two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born, it might not be a fragment of the Qur’an at all. It could instead be a portion of some source that later became part of the Qur’an…”

    On July 27, I wrote that “this could be a portion of a pre-Islamic source for the Qur’an.”

    Glad to see the academics catching up… ”

    Leadership and original thinking are usually in short supply, so it’s little wonder that a private intellectual (Mr Spencer) has moved so far ahead of the pack.

  26. Karen says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 12:42 am

    I certainly admire the forthright statement from Keith Small, although I’m afraid he may be called into the Dean’s office shortly. Usually that sort of courage and candor is seen only from people like Robert Spencer, and is not welcome recently in the ancient halls of book learnin’.

    Unfortunately, I doubt this will get the extensive coverage the original story got several weeks ago (as I remember, even CAIR had something about it on their disgusting website). And some of the Imams can spin anything into a ‘scientific miracle’, which will be disappointing. (“Koran revealed to Muhammad before he existed – its a scientific miracle!!”) I have no stake in this, and even a bit of compassion for someone whose cherished belief has been dinged up, but facing the truth is always best, however this turns out.

  27. jake says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 12:51 am

    If pages were found preceding Mohammed by 200 years, they would say they were the Angel Gabriel’s notes. Nothing can change the mind of someone who is in a totalitarian cult.

    • JIMJFOX says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 8:11 am

      ” two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born”

      NOT two CENTURIES!

      • Rev G says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 11:09 am

        He was making a statement of his own, mini-mind. Try and keep up.

      • dale says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 3:24 pm

        Islamic tradition says that Mohammad was 40 yrs old at the time of the first revelation, That makes this 42 yrs older. That’s not taking into account how old he was supposed to be at the revelation of these two sura’s. The revelation of Quran was not a single event but a series of events over several decades according to Islamic tradition.

    • DaveGinOly says

      Sep 2, 2015 at 2:07 am

      And how do you describe the modern-day followers of Jesus? You know, the prophet who told his followers that the Lord’s kingdom on earth was coming within their lifetimes and was completely mistaken? That Jesus guy who thought that diseases were caused by demons (and not by pathogens, as he would have known if he were the son of god). People will believe what they want to believe, in spite of contradictions and other obvious signs that their belief systems are fabrications.

      • Rev g says

        Sep 2, 2015 at 8:11 am

        There are a few interpretations on the kingdom theme, but your claims do not fit the narrative. Clearly the church ( churches) established in Christ’ name are a kingdom. Pentecost is often considered as the time His kingdom was established, though others point to the resurrection.

        Also, I am aware of many verses where Christ drove out demons and also cured illnesses. Two discrete actions.

  28. Buraq says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 1:02 am

    This is excellent news! How is the world of Islam going to explain away this? I’ll bet these clowns will claim that it’s a Zionist plot to discredit Islam. They’ll say the parchment is faked, or something.

    • Cliffhild says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 6:49 am

      —the parchment could be a palimset — an old piece where the original writing had been erased and written over. This often happened at that time because parchment was, naturally, scarce. See:

      http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/palimpsest

      • ninetyninepct says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 12:17 pm

        The article said goatskin. We could easily imagine a lot of dead goats laying around, particularly near lonely goat herders in the desert.

        • DaveGinOly says

          Sep 2, 2015 at 2:00 am

          “Parchment’ is animal skin, of any kind, treated for use as a substrate for writing. Parchment was very frequently erased and re-used, despite the presence of livestock in most communities. The OP said parchment was scarce, not goats. It was easier/less expensive to erase existing writing on parchment than it was to produce new parchment.

    • JIMJFOX says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 8:16 am

      No problem for the Religion of Lies- facts have no relevance where Islam is concerned.
      For instance the Koran states as follows–

      FIRST MUSLIM?
      Contradiction: Q2:131 says Abraham
      Contradiction: Q2:37 says Adam
      Contradiction: Q6:14 says Muhammad
      Contradiction: Q7:143 says Moses

      Amongst hundreds of other blatant Contradictions…

      • Saiful Rimkeit says

        Sep 20, 2015 at 12:45 am

        Show me a religion that does not lie and I’ll show you a well baked Fig Newton

    • b says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 10:38 am

      Yes, they will say, IT’S THE JEWS’ FAULT, as usual….

      • Saiful Rimkeit says

        Sep 20, 2015 at 12:47 am

        Some of it is, some of it ain’t

      • Saiful Rimkeit says

        Sep 20, 2015 at 12:58 am

        Some of it is, some of it is not. Some of it is someone else’s.

    • Saiful Rimkeit says

      Sep 3, 2015 at 1:21 am

      Yes. As they said The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion was also a hoax. Yet, when one views the Protocols close to 90% of the Master Plan has been achieved, verbatim.

      • Huck Folder says

        Sep 19, 2015 at 8:37 pm

        Citations?

        Close to 90% of the Master Plan has been achieved by islam.

        Project?

        Much?

        • Saiful Rimkeit says

          Sep 20, 2015 at 12:41 am

          And? The sword cuts both ways.
          I’ll show you my citations if you show me yours. 🙂

        • Incek Mahallesi says

          Sep 20, 2015 at 1:02 am

          Saiful:

          “I’ll show you my citations if you show me yours.”
          _____________________________________

          The Protocols are a well-established hoax and monstrous example of multiple plagiarisms. Therefore, attaching ANY supposed significance to them, aside from the purely academic issues germane to the issue of research/debunking/plagiarism is stupid and futile.
          ____________

          Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:

          “How are loans made? By the issue of bonds entailing on the Government the obligation to pay interest proportionate to the capital it has been paid. Thus, if a loan is at 5%, the State, after 20 years, has paid out a sum equal to the borrowed capital. When 40 years have expired it has paid double, after 60 years triple: yet it remains debtor for the entire capital sum.”

          — Montesquieu, Dialogues, p. 209

          “A loan is an issue of Government paper which entails an obligation to pay interest amounting to a percentage of the total sum of the borrowed money. If a loan is at 5%, then in 20 years the Government would have unnecessarily paid out a sum equal to that of the loan in order to cover the percentage. In 40 years it will have paid twice; and in 60 thrice that amount, but the loan will still remain as an unpaid debt.”

          — Protocols, p. 77
          ____________________________________________________________

          “Like the god Vishnu, my press will have a hundred arms, and these arms will give their hands to all the different shades of opinion throughout the country.”

          — Machiavelli, Dialogues, p. 141

          “These newspapers, like the Indian god Vishnu, will be possessed of hundreds of hands, each of which will be feeling the pulse of varying public opinion.”

          — Protocols, p. 43
          ________________________________________________________

          Now I understand the figure of the god Vishnu; you have a hundred arms like the Indian idol, and each of your fingers touches a spring.

          — Montesquieu, Dialogues, p. 207
          Our Government will resemble the Hindu god Vishnu. Each of our hundred hands will hold one spring of the social machinery of State.

          — Protocols, p. 65
          _______________________________________________________________

          José Delacruz. “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion – Plagiarism at its Best”. University of California, Santa Barbara Department of History. Retrieved January 24, 2014.

          Michelis, Cesare G. De (2004). The non-existent manuscript : a study of the Protocols of the sages of Zion. Lincoln: Univ. of Nebraska Press. p. 65. ISBN 0803217277.

          Eco, Umberto (1994), “Fictional Protocols”, Six Walks in the Fictional Woods, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, p. 135, ISBN 0-674-81050-3

          Burtsev, Vladimir (1938), “4”, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion: A Proved Forgery (in Russian), Paris: Jewniverse, p. 106.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 20, 2015 at 2:11 am

          It is not surprisingl that Saiful Rimkeit is ranting about swords–“Saiful” means “sword of” in Arabic, and is a common Jihdist sobriquet.

        • Mazo says

          Sep 20, 2015 at 3:40 am

          Cravenmirage confirmed to be a moron.

          Sayful is not a “Jihdist”(sic) thing, it is a typical part of many Arabic-Islamic names which people use as their ordinary personal name. Sayfullah, Sayfuddin, Sayf al-Islam are all normal Arabic-Islamic names.

          Last time she claimed “Sham” was a common “Jihadist sobriquet” for Syria when in fact Sham is just the normal Arabic name for the Levant used by everyone who speaks Arabic including Christians, atheists or whatever religion they are.

          And the moron claimed “Umm” was a symbol of women’s oppression, not knowing of the Arab practice of Teknonymy and how it also applies to men.

  29. TJ says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 1:35 am

    I like how the person in the photo has long blonde hair ..

  30. Alan Osler says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 2:27 am

    I’m no expert on carbon dating, but wonder if only the parchment has been dealt with — and not the text; i.e. only the support, and not the ink?

  31. Baucent says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 2:50 am

    I believe I came to the same conclusion Robert regarding a possible “earlier source” manuscript and my comments about this on JW predate your comments of 22 July.

    • voegelinian says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 11:55 am

      And Christoph Luxenbourg was exploring this theory and first published his findings I believe in 2000, with more amplification in 2004 (see Foreword of the following pdf of his book The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran:

      http://www.aramaic-dem.org/English/History/Christoph%20Luxenberg.pdf

      • voegelinian says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 11:56 am

        Make that “Luxenberg” (a pseudonym at any rate — he had to change his name and go into hiding because Muslims want to kill him)

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 20, 2015 at 2:12 am

        Thanks for the references, Voegelinian.

  32. JENNIFER KING says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 3:33 am

    Muhammad received revelations from an unknown spirit, the RUH, Hebrew: Ruach.
    The angel Gabriel was not named until over twelve years later by Jews in Medina.
    Muhammad repeated what these Jews had told Umar, as he often did.

    • vyx says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 11:25 am

      So “RUH” is another name for the Devil? Just guessing….

      • Blitz2b says

        Sep 2, 2015 at 8:34 am

        No the term “RUH” literally means spirit…
        For some Muslims the jabreel was the holy spirit.
        Go figure!

    • ninetyninepct says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 12:20 pm

      Does this mean then that Islam and the Koran are based on Jewish history and teachings? Probably.

  33. Rick Spencer says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 5:11 am

    Let’s not forget about the SANA’A MANUSCRIPTS, see: http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html, which 99,99 % of Muslim clerics wouldn’t want “the faithful” to know about! Anyway, 99.99 % of Muslims, by their indoctrination from early childhood, don’t have enquiring minds, nor are they capable of critical thinking.

  34. Michael says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 8:04 am

    It should be known by now that much of the koran was taken from the old and new testament of the Bible. It was changed to fit this new sick ideology of the time. I don’t think Mohammed and his ilk were learned men at all…..they were bandits looking for a system or religion to get what they wanted………….Sort of like L. Ron Hubbard.

    • Saiful Rimkeit says

      Sep 3, 2015 at 1:34 am

      LOL X@. That’s terrific.

  35. duh_swami says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 8:28 am

    Someday archaeologists will dig up a box with the Quran given to Adam and Eve, along with Mahound and Jesus birth certificates…

    • Rico says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 11:19 am

      Don’t forget Obama’s birth certificate.

      • Streek says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm

        That predates reality

  36. WatchingTheFall says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 8:55 am

    I didn’t know they had toilet paper back then, hell they still haven’t discovered the toothbrush.

  37. epistemology says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 8:57 am

    Absolutely great news. The Arabs just wanted a monotheism of their own and invented the criminal self-appointed prophet. This confirms Robert’s book “Did Muhammad exist?”

    • voegelinian says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 12:01 pm

      Without a founding psychopath of extraordinary cultic charisma, the historical career of Islam (not only its stupendous military expansion but also its amazing capacity for mass brainwashing and mass sociopathy) become strangely inexplicable.

  38. Carol Ann says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 am

    It has also been in the news that the use of fossil fuels has significantly diminished the validity of carbon dating. The date discrepancy here is so small, that the fossil fuel issue erases any significance.

    Plus the “article” perpetuates the usual stereotypes of Muslims as victims, “God” told them to relocate, Islam just happened to spread. The Muhammad and his followers forgave….

    I bet the imams couldn’t be happier with this article.

    • voegelinian says

      Sep 1, 2015 at 12:04 pm

      Good points. Not to mention also that one detects a Christian Wilsonian agenda to the “Muhammad Did Not Exist” meme (tied to Great Unrealistic Expectations that such news is going to cause a critical mass of Muslims to leave Islam).

      • voegelinian says

        Sep 1, 2015 at 12:06 pm

        More on “Christian Wilsonianism” —

        https://www.google.com/#q=hesperado+christian+wilsonianism

  39. DiMu says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 9:51 am

    No proof will ever alter the mind of an idiot.

  40. Kilfincelt says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 11:28 am

    See: http://www.answering-islam.org/fileadmin/authors/smith/birmingham_quran.pdf

    This article is very interesting. I found some answers to my questions regarding the Birmingham discovery.

  41. nacazo says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 11:31 am

    Kind of long but abnsat had a discussion on this quran

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDmYgBmhd0

  42. Streek says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 12:09 pm

    So Moohamad is still an illiterate child rapist, correct!

  43. Henry says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 3:18 pm

    Modern science lifting the curtain on Islam. Wow, just wow!

  44. Joe says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 8:04 pm

    Read deeper on carbon dating… If the ink is non-organic then it can’t be dated. Only materials that contain CARBON can be dated using that method. If it was say an iron based ink, you can’t determine it’s date. How do they determine the age of rocks? Only by finding some organic material nearby and AS SUMAN that the rocks are the same age as the organics.

  45. Mohammed Goldberg says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    There are accuracy limits to carbon dating and certain types of contamination can cause errors in dating. The range of dates provided overlaps the time Muhammad lived. Either way, being as old as stated brings up the question of the actual beginnings of the Muslim religion.

  46. Bezelel says

    Sep 1, 2015 at 10:38 pm

    I guess erasers were in short supply back then. Pretty shoddy work for a divine inspired, supposed to be so friggin important letter. Can you imagine a Torah scroll on used parchment? Not to mention the contradictions mentioned.

    • Joseph says

      Sep 2, 2015 at 12:07 am

      Bezelel,
      Any mistake on a section of the Torah(it was not one continuous piece but sections sewn together) and that whole section was scrapped. Not one jot or tittle was out of place. This is why the Dead Sea scrolls are a near perfect match of what we have today.
      On the other hand there is that Koran to which no such care was given. This parchment is proof of that.

  47. Edward says

    Sep 2, 2015 at 11:24 am

    Mr. Robert Spencer’s 35 years of Middle East studies has not been in vain. His expertise on such dedicated studies is proving by his works that America and the entire world are being held under duress by a monstrous and barbaric self serving false religion. What has been known to him is now bearing fruit!

    http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/09/01/carbon-dating-suggests-fragments-world-oldest-korean-may-predate-muhammad/?intcmp=hplnws

    Fragments of world’s oldest Koran may predate Muhammad, scholars say:

    “This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven,” Keith Small of Oxford’s Bodleian Library told the Times.’”

    The ‘TRUTH’ activated noose is now tightening around the necks of Islam’s falsehood. Those that became victims of this evil movement should arise and proudly point fingers as a sign of condemnation to their perpetrators!

    • Edward says

      Sep 2, 2015 at 12:06 pm

      noose = snare

      Our Creator’s given gift of Knowledge through Science is outwitting Satan!

      Here’s a point that further establishes lack of legitimacy of the god named in the Koran:

      “The Creator is a Creator, not a destroyer.” José Silva – Silva’s Mind Control legacy founder.

  48. Saiful Rimkeit says

    Sep 3, 2015 at 1:29 am

    RE: …and yet it could date from as far back as 568, two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born, it might not be a fragment of the Qur’an at all. It could instead be a portion of some source that later became part of the Qur’an…”
    emphasis on “and yet it could date from as far back as 568, two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born,”
    AND
    “The pages, thought to be between 1,448 and 1,371 years old, is a 117 year carbon dating year spread!

    Could… Again, “two years before Muhammad is supposed to have been born…” Which is it? 2 years or 117 +/-? I don’t get it.

  49. clematis vita says

    Sep 3, 2015 at 8:31 am

    that must be the Jesuit draft of Koran…

  50. David Christhilf says

    Sep 4, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    The whole premise of this article is contradicted by the contents of the article itself. A chief quote in the article is:

    “The ‘Birmingham Koran’ fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad,” by Jennifer Newton, MailOnline, August 31, 2015

    but the article also says:

    “It is believed that the Birmingham Koran was produced between 568AD and 645AD, while the dates usually given for Muhammad are between 570AD and 632AD.”.

    Given the uncertainty in the dates for both text and the birth of Muhammad, you really need to assume that the text dates from the earliest dates in the range of dates in order for this to be a problem. So far, calling it a problem that could “shake Islam” is not justified by what is presented in the article.

    Muhammad was inspired, but not by the angel Gabriel. Paul warned about false messages when he said: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8

    Jesus also warned against false prophets like Muhammad and Joseph Smith: “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. ” Matthew 7:15-16a

  51. garegin says

    Sep 7, 2015 at 12:23 pm

    1. The dating range allows it to be after Mohamed’s death, so it’s really not definative that it predates the canonical timeline.
    2. Even if it did it’s still not a damning problem. Since the Quran claims that previous revelations were given to all people across the world, these texts could be claimed to be parts of those revelations.
    We already have the damning evidence. No one talks about Islam until the 690s. This is while supposadly they were millions of Muslims.
    This is in stark contrast that we have plenty of evidence for the existence of early Christians who were a tiny minority.

  52. Saiful Rimkeit says

    Sep 20, 2015 at 1:39 am

    RE: “The pages, thought to be between 1,448 and 1,371 years old, were discovered bound within the pages of another Koran from the late seventh century at the library of the University of Birmingham.”

    That’s quite a time spread. Isn’t there a more accurate method of dating the material than carbon dating? Let’s cross reference the age of the skin with a minimum of 3 other techniques and then we can be more sure of its age.
    This project is too important to do otherwise. Part of the real proof of the Muslim Religion may hang on it.

    • Jay Boo says

      Sep 20, 2015 at 1:45 am

      Saiful Rimkeit said,
      “Part of the real proof of the Muslim Religion may hang on it.”

      Oh come on!
      Get real. You can’t be serious.
      We do not need carbon dating to prove Islam an obvious hoax and Muhammad a lying buffoon.

    • Jay Boo says

      Sep 20, 2015 at 1:54 am

      Desert spirits spoke in twisted verse, a dance of words to recite.
      This Muhammad rehearsed in a cave near Mecca veiled by night.
      But, the angel Gabriel saw his descent, and said “Pawn of Satan turn, repent, repent.”
      Islam’s creed was fertilized by a sociopath’s made-up dream.
      His partnership with Allah was dredged up from the lowest pit of his vanity.
      Whenever, false humility makes a hajj to Muhammad’s curse,
      Islam’s dead Serpent crawls out from his stockpile of vile, veiled verse.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 20, 2015 at 2:22 am

      Saiful Rimkeit wrote:

      Let’s cross reference the age of the skin with a minimum of 3 other techniques and then we can be more sure of its age.
      This project is too important to do otherwise. Part of the real proof of the Muslim Religion may hang on it.
      …………………………

      Grimly hilarious. “Sword of” appears to believe that the primary purpose of Infidel science is to justify Islam.

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