Really, what did you expect? A considerable portion of U.S. domestic and foreign policy is based on the assumption that Islam in the U.S. will be different: that Muslims here believe differently from those elsewhere, and do not accept the doctrines of violence against and subjugation of unbelievers that have characterized Islam throughout its history. But on what is that assumption based? Nothing but wishful thinking. And future generations of non-Muslims will pay the price.
“Meanwhile, An Islamic Fifth Column Builds Inside America,” by Paul Sperry, IBD, October 1, 2015 (thanks to Pamela Geller)
In berating GOP presidential hopeful Ben Carson for suggesting a loyalty test for Muslims seeking high office, CNN host Jake Tapper maintained that he doesn’t know a single observant Muslim-American who wants to Islamize America.
“I just don’t know any Muslim-Americans — and I know plenty — who feel that way, even if they are observant Muslims,” he scowled.
Tapper doesn’t get out much. If he did, chances are he’d run into some of the 51% of Muslims living in the U.S. who just this June told Polling Co. they preferred having “the choice of being governed according to Shariah,” or Islamic law. Or the 60% of Muslim-Americans under 30 who told Pew Research they’re more loyal to Islam than America.
Maybe they’re all heretics, so let’s see what the enlightened Muslims think.
If Tapper did a little independent research he’d quickly find that America’s most respected Islamic leaders and scholars also want theocracy, not democracy, and even advocate trading the Constitution for the Quran.
These aren’t fringe players. These are the top officials representing the Muslim establishment in America today.
Hopefully none of them ever runs for president, because here’s what he’d have to say about the U.S. system of government:
• Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of both the Fiqh Council of North America, which dispenses Islamic rulings, and the North American Islamic Trust, which owns most of the mosques in the U.S.: “As Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring gradual change, (but) we must not forget that Allah’s rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction.”
• Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the top Muslim lobby group in Washington: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”
• CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper: “I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future.”
• Imam Siraj Wahhaj, director of the Muslim Alliance in North America: “In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and there will be nothing. And the only thing that will remain will be Islam.”
• Imam Zaid Shakir, co-founder of Zaytuna College in Berkeley, Calif.: “If we put a nationwide infrastructure in place and marshaled our resources, we’d take over this country in a very short time. . . . What a great victory it will be for Islam to have this country in the fold and ranks of the Muslims.”…

gravenimage says
51% of U.S. Muslims want Sharia; 60% of young Muslims more loyal to Islam than to U.S.
……………………..
These disgusting statistics should not surprise–a majority of Muslims in every Western country admit to wanting the imposition of brutal Shari’ah law.
And that picture of supremacist Muslims taking over the lawn outside the Capitol–the likely third target of the 9/11 attacks–could not be more vomit-inducing.
Here’s that story for anyone interested:
“US Muslims gather outside Capitol Hill to pray”
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/09/26/86162.html
Don McKellar says
The real message of that surreal nightmare photo is lost on most. The message is that the Capitol is IN THEIR WAY and THEY LOOK BEYOND IT LIKE IT’S NOT THERE. And if the ignorant Kuffar thinks differently and that somehow they are pledging a bizarre allegiance to the Capital, then it’s perfect taqiyya. That’s the typical double-meaning deception of the message in this image. That’s what every death cult of the moon god moslem sees in that image.
Joseph says
@ Don McKellar,
Very interesting observation.
Gary says
Chilling image. And yes….. They’re not bowing to The Constitution. They’re bowing to darkness.
The bad news…..
It will spread across America like a cancer.
The Solution: America needs to get on its knees and pray to the Living God. The God our forefathers knew.
EYESOPEN says
You are right Gary. But how do you convince fools of this?
Lenny Thetruth says
It is all part of the concept of “Storming and Norming.” This allows the gradual acceptance of Islam to creep up on you. We will be told that these are regular people and we either accept them, or we are racist. They are allowed to lie about their agenda.
I urge everybody to do a bit of research on this topic. It is usually never mentioned, except by Sociologists explaining how we got from there, to here. If we know what is coming, we can be better prepared for it. We will recognize their agenda when it comes up.
voegelinian says
Apparently Abraham Lincoln (PBUH) is calmly sitting with his back to the qibla of Mecca.
gravenimage says
Great image.
Shane says
Too many Americans are clueless when it comes to Islam, but then they accept what Muslims and educators tell them about Islam. Our children are taught that Islam is a religion of peace and that “jihad’ means internal struggle. Islam is a religion of war and misogyny and Muslims want to make everyone obey their barbaric, cruel, and misogynistic sharia law.
Bob Ingersoll says
Sure, and let’s have a loyalty oath for Christians, too, and anyone else who seeks to govern and isn’t first loyal to the Constitution! Ben Carson is a fool. So blind it is amazing he can tie his shoes. The likes of him and Huckabee and the rest of that idiotic Christian (including Seventh Dayers like poor deluded Ben) are more of a danger at this stage of history then the Sharia crowd. Apply the same standards to all, Ben, you idiot.
R says
Sigh…why do the people with the lowest IQs feel the need to so desperately show it off? Christianity has no doctrine or ideology that states that God’s law supersedes man’s law, like Islam does. On the contrary, Christianity clearly delineates the separation between church and state. Ben Carson was 100% correct and these numbers further prove it. You’re an idiot.
daniel sebold says
Then Christians should stop forcing the abortion, anti-homosexual and creationism design issues, and start rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, because, frankly, I don’t want to listen to those Christians who believe the Universe is ten thousand years old while they use computers based on the very quantum theory that says the Universe is 13.72 billion years old.
BC says
True, the creationists and indeed Muslims live in a strange dichotomous world. Accepting science and its benefits when it suits them but then denying science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Of course you could also call them hypocrites
kinley says
Dear Mr Sebold
One the MAJOR lessons of Einstein’s general theory of relativity is that time depends on local velocity and gravity. Reference frames (your local environ) characterized by higher speeds (compared to light) and very intense gravity induce a local time progression that is slower relative to reference frames of much less velocity and gravity. Time progression thus depends on your surroundings. Via modern physics, while 13.7 billion years elapsed on earth, much much less time elapsed elsewhere in the universe (another reference frame).
The conclusions you refer to are based on 19th century science. We live in the 21st century.
TH says
Killing unborn babies and other such killing like killing old folk who are considered not useful, like what the Nazis did, is not just a Christian moral principle. It derives from the natural law which was also expressed in ancient moral codes like that of Humarabi of Mesapotamia around 1800 B.C. In fact, such ancient codes are sources for the ten commandments, which of course, were given more complete and perfect expression by means of their revelation to Moses. Most of them can be derived from human reason which is what natural law is about.
voegelinian says
Christians aren’t “forcing” anything. They are exercising their free right to roll up their shirtsleeves and get into the democratic political process and try to change society the way that aligns with their values — a right everyone else has; a right which those who are indifferent at best to Christians values have been enjoying with near hegemony over the past century or so.
daniel sebold says
Fair enough. Well said/
voegelinian says
BC says
October 16, 2015 at 5:00 am
True, the creationists and indeed Muslims live in a strange dichotomous world. Accepting science and its benefits when it suits them but then denying science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Of course you could also call them hypocrites
Some Christians may fit that description; but those who don’t are behaving with eminent rationality. It is the secularists who claim there is no absolute morality and yet who at the same time behave as though there is right and wrong who are indulging in hypocrisy (not to mention incoherence), as well as a kind of parasitism on the ethical substance of our Judaeo-Christian heritage that lingers on in our amorphous cultural values and laws.
Some
R says
@daniel sebold
I mostly agree. But those Christians that are anti-homosexuals are not following Christ’s teachings, so that really isn’t Christianity. Also, nowhere in Christianity does it teach that the earth is 10,000 years old. Abortion is a different story. Whether religious views come into play or not, if you stop something’s heart from beating, you’re killing it.
It would be nice if you would educate yourself on actual Christianity and stop spouting what you hear from lunatics that call themselves Christians.
Anyway, please stay on topic. There is only one religion/ideology on earth that clearly says that God’s law supersedes man-made law and that is Islam. Islam is the problem.
Wellington says
Huh, Bob Ingersoll, Doctor Ben Carson is a pediatric neurosurgeon and there is no such thing as an idiotic pediatric neurosurgeon, although there are people idiotic enough to think there is. Actually, you come to mind here.
In addition, the Christian theological blueprint wishes to infuse and inspire governmental policy and action but still clearly allows for separation of the secular and spiritual, something which Dr. Carson backs 100%. By contrast, the Islamic theological blueprint wants religion to control government and disallows the separation of the secular and spiritual. A greater contrast would be hard to find. Many of the Founding Fathers were skeptics (and many were not) but all thought religion should guide the public sphere (e.g., the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, re-enacted by the First Congress under the Constitution in 1789, which in Article 3 spoke of the importance of “religion, morality and knowledge for good government”). Any Muslim who asserts that they don’t want to Islamize the American government doesn’t know their own faith, knows their own faith but rejects a major tenet of their faith, or they are lying. Carson gets this. You don’t.
Wake up, Bob, and desist with the embarrassing moral equivalency thinking, which gives more away about you than you realize. Particularly risible and idiotic is your contention that people like Carson and Huckabee “are more of a danger at this stage of history then {sic} the Sharia crowd.” You know, Bob, you should take Abraham Lincoln’s advice and remain silent and be thought a fool rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt.
fidobite says
Excellent responses, R & Wellington, to Bob the bonehead. It never ceases to amaze me that a person’s determination and willingness to disparage another person’s viewpoint is so often inversely proportional to their understanding of the very subject on which the original viewpoint was expressed.
Let it suffice to say that islam is incompatible with the modern Western values of freedom and democracy. The two will never mix, violence is inevitable and islam will lose. The only question is when.
BC says
Muslims lioke to claim there is not compulsion in religion but in nearly every state where Islam is dominant ie. part of the constitution, and Christians and other faiths live, the basic attitude of the Muslims is convert suffer the consequences or even die.
Edward says
“Let it suffice to say that islam is incompatible with the modern Western values of freedom and democracy. The two will never mix, violence is inevitable and islam will lose. The only question is when.”
fidobite,
Great point to ponder upon!
By submitting this discerned thought into our united minds surely it will manifest in due time!
Angemon says
Brilliantly put, Wellington. You said what I was going to reply, more than that, and expressed yourself much better than I ever would.
*tips hat*
Wellington says
Thank you, Angemon. But I must disagree with you on one point and that is that you have shown time and time again a capacity to express yourself superbly.
voegelinian says
“Any Muslim who asserts that they don’t want to Islamize the American government doesn’t know their own faith, knows their own faith but rejects a major tenet of their faith, or they are lying. ”
If the West continues to think the numbers of Muslims who “don’t know their own faith” is a viable number of a high percentile (such as, for example, the giant chunks of either 49% or 40% indicated by this recent poll) which can be treated as though it were a known number affecting our continued tolerance of Muslims in our society in general, it would be to reinforce our collective suicide pact.
Speaking of those “who don’t know”: anyone thinking that our continued tolerance of Muslims in the West — any and all Muslims — is not going to metastasize horribly in the coming decades, generating a hot world war within the West and millions of us mass-murdered by Muslims just doesn’t know the problem of Islam. At least those in the PC MC mainstream can plead Useful Idiocy; those in the Counter-Jihad who don’t know this — and who don’t show they know this by putting two and two together — have no excuse.
Wellington says
I’m in essential agreement with you, veogelinian. I just assume the worst about a Muslim and then go from there. Once again, I believe our only difference is on the matter of mass deportation. Other than that, I think we’re simpatico.
voegelinian says
Wellington would be among those I mentioned who know the problem, but “don’t show they know this by putting two and two together”
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Wellington would be among those I mentioned who know the problem, but “don’t show they know this by putting two and two together””
Let me see if I get your “logic”: you claim that Wellington “knows” but he doesn’t “show” that he “knows” because he doesn’t do whatever it is you would have others do, but even though he doesn’t “show that he “knows” by doing whatever it is you would have others to do, you “know” he “knows”. Is that it?
Wellington says
Ha, ha, ha, Angemon. You made the laugh of my day. Thank you. Oh my God, I still (honestly) can’t stop laughing. Really, I could hardly type this. Got to go to laugh some more. Brilliant!
Angemon says
Ridendo castigat mores 🙂
Wait, or was it castigat ridendo mores? Meh, all the same, I guess.
Mirren10 says
”Wellington would be among those I mentioned who know the problem, but “don’t show they know this by putting two and two together”
Wellington said he was in essential agreement with you, voegelinian, but that just isn’t enough for you, is it ?
gravenimage says
It’s never enough, Mirren,
BC says
Einstein once commented that most people would rather die than think. You have just demonstrated that he was correct. Although G W Bush thought he was guided by god and Reagan’s wife was also a believer in astrology and she was an important influence on him
Jkissy says
Never seen an empty shell like you. Your likes are so deluded by Islam you dare not think at all. Pity
Gary says
Bob, would you kindly show me where Christianity compares to this:
Sharia law:
• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand.
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls’ clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad’s words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband’s consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman’s testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man’s.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah – i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
One need look no father than current day Europe to see Islam is far more of a danger to history than Christianity.
Shane says
You are the ignorant fool. Islam is by far the worst religion in the world today and Muslims make the worst possible immigrants for any Western country. Look at the trouble European countries are having with Islam to see the future of the USA if we continue mass Muslim immigration.
Muslim Rape Gangs in Britain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD0YEtuacUk Islamic Rape Wave in Norway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoiCYwoJKrE
Muslims committing 95% of rapes against Norwegian women:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCdc8vQTQVw
Welcome to Sweden of Today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw Sweden Is Gone, Sweden Is Finished: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhstVDWsetM
‘Multiculturalism failing’: Violent riots engulf Stockholm suburbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGpAUKJtzI
Muslim Rape Jihad in the U.K. Part 1:
Mirren10 says
To Bob Ingersoll;
”Sure, and let’s have a loyalty oath for Christians, too, and anyone else who seeks to govern and isn’t first loyal to the Constitution!”
Well, I’m not an American, but that seems even to me ( a UK citizen) to be a remarkably stupid statement. You need to inform yourself of the very salient differences between the attitudes of islam and Christianity, to religion and the state. Christianity draws a line between religion and the state; in fact, specifically states the dichotomy between religion and government. islam, on the other hand, specifically states that religion and government are *one*. So a pious muslim, running for office, believes his religious beliefs should be the law of the country – which, of course, means sharia. Stoning to death for adultery, death for apostates, amputation of limbs for theft, etc, etc.
I know which system *I* would rather live under.
” Ben Carson is a fool. So blind it is amazing he can tie his shoes.”
Really ? Dr. Carson is a highly respected neurosurgeon, which means he is also a scientist. His personal religious beliefs, which in fact, I disagree with, have nothing whatsoever to do with his intellect and skills. He can not only tie his shoes, but can also operate on the brain, and save many lives. And you call him a fool, and blind ? I’d put myself, and those of my loved ones, in *his* hands, any day.
”The likes of him and Huckabee and the rest of that idiotic Christian (including Seventh Dayers like poor deluded Ben) are more of a danger at this stage of history then the Sharia crowd.”
I don’t know who Huckabee, or the Seventh Dayers are, ( I presume they are Christian fundamentalists, in belief) but to compare their beliefs to the ‘Sharia crowd’ is so idiotic it beggars belief. Sharia mandates death for apostates, stoning to death of adulterers, flogging, murder of gays, amongst other draconian punishments for those that flout sharia. And you are **seriously** suggesting that Christians are the *same* ? Has Dr Carson ever said anyone who disagrees with creationism should be murdered ? Or gays, or adulterers ? No, he has not. You are really seriously stupid.
”Apply the same standards to all, Ben, you idiot”
I really don’t think Dr Carson is the idiot, here.
PRCS says
Shariah does NOT mean Islamic law. It means “the straight path”–a path defined and limited by, as Muslims understand it, divine law; including its punishments.
How, exactly, does a self professed Muslim explain not wanting to remain on that path?
The American public, in general, has been brainwashed to think that Shariah equals Islamic Law and nothing more. So, I wonder, were those Muslims asked bout Shari’ah or Islamic Law?
From the Understanding Islam website (http://www.whyislam.org/faqs/understanding-shariah/):
“Shariah is an integral part of Islam. It is often defined as ‘Islamic law,’ causing one to assume that it consists mostly of criminal rulings and penalties. However, Shariah encompasses much more than the conventional understanding of law. While Shariah provides the legal framework for the foundation and functioning of a society, it also details moral, ethical, social and political codes of conduct for Muslims at an individual and collective level.”
gravenimage says
With all respect, PRCS, I believe this is a distinction without a difference for most Muslims–rather like the canard about the “greater” and “lesser” Jihads.
The fact is that most Muslims in the West have been quite open about wanting to see the imposition of Islamic law–and not just their following some sort of personal “straight path”.
The way this question was phrased was, “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah”–to which 51% responded in the affirmative (compared to 32% disagreeing). Does this really seem like a reference to some private point of conscience?
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/06/24/poll-more-than-50-of-muslims-in-america-want-to-live-under-barbaric-sharia-law/
PRCS says
Thanks for your response, GI.
From your link:
“POLL: More than 50% of Muslims in America want to live under barbaric sharia law”
The problem is that most American citizens—if asked—have no idea what Shariah is; understanding it incorrectly (thanks to lazy “journalists”, politicians, and polls like this one) only as a set of unarguably barbaric laws which Muslims may freely choose to support or reject.
Of course, it’s much more than that. It’s the “straight path” all Muslims are expected to follow their entire lives and the link I posted states, “Shariah is an integral part of Islam.”
Most American citizens don’t know that, but most Muslims (all Muslims, perhaps) do know what it actually means and what it entails.
Knowing that sunrise to sunset fasting—a tenet of Shariah—is mandatory for most Muslims during Ramadan, how many Muslims in America fast because they know they’re supposed to or because “barbaric sharia law” might—or even should—be imposed upon them for not doing so?
I don’t know if the poll’s failure to address that was done intentionally or was a mistake
But for the purpose of that poll, had Shariah been first defined as that “straight path”, rather than misrepresenting it as just a set of punishments, the respondents could then have been asked if “divine laws” which violate the U.S. Constitution and the laws which flow from it should be imposed—here—for straying from Islam’s straight path.
IMO, as the “perversion/hijacking of Islam” by a “tiny minority of extremists” nonsense has so misinformed the average Joe and Jane, so too did this poll.
BC says
Your arguments are completely specious. Those Muslims know exactly what they mean
by sharia and how it is applied as they apply it daily in their lives and in their homes.
You also need to educate yourself as you appear ignorant of how sharia is applied in almost all Islamic states. For example the religious ‘police’ who go around making sure women are not showing any hair or wearing nail varnish, in some places they are beaten with sticks in public, or made to go home and change their dress. How couples are punished for holding hands or even worse kissing, even non Muslims . In Ramadan the ‘police go around checking in cafes that nobody is eating and drinking, floggings are given for that also. There is no freedom under sharia.
It is as bad as Nazi Germany and like the latter there are always people around to report your for your ‘transgressions’. That is what life would be like in USA ruled by sharia. Muslims lives are dominated by all kinds of rules and that is what they want for the world
daniel sebold says
There is one benefit I can think of from Sharia law: speculative bankers would lose their heads.
PRCS says
The article, BC, concerns the attitude of Muslims in America.
“Those Muslims know exactly what they mean by sharia”
I’m pretty sure I mentioned that.
What’s specious is your post and the misleading nature of the poll–as it was concocted and presented to an uninformed American public.
voegelinian says
“…but most Muslims (all Muslims, perhaps) do know what it actually means and what it entails.”
I can hear the whir of the chamber of the revolver of Muslim Roulette; paused in that parenthetical perhaps…? Do we want to play that deadly game? This gentle spasm that can’t just go there to the dreaded A word (all Muslims) tends to reinforce our broader, deeper disinclination to be intolerant of Muslims in our societies which, in turn, tends to to reinforce our broader, deeper inclination to tolerate vast swaths of them in our societies. Someone in the West has got to begin the psychological/cultural process of Zero Tolerance (which obviously translates to All Muslims). One would think that place to begin that process would be in this preciously beleaguered canaries-in-a-coalmine spearhead of sociopolitical change about the problem of Islam, “the Counter-Jihad”. When, on the contrary, here and there in the Counter-Jihad I keep running into spasms, reflexes, instincts, sniffles, coughs and sneezes of prevarication on that Zero Tolerance, it makes me wonder if the West will ever wake the fuck up.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Someone in the West has got to begin the psychological/cultural process of Zero Tolerance (which obviously translates to All Muslims).”
Let me guess: that someone is you, right? Anyway, how can you tell a muslim from a non-muslim? For all your talk about “zero tolerance” and “prejudice” against “ALL muslims”, you’ve never told us how to actually tell who’s a muslim from who isn’t. Seems to me like you’re trying to get to step 2 without going through the mandatory step 1…
PRCS says
Dear Hesp,
You know full well that the dreaded A word is an unprovable opinion.
” Someone in the West has got to begin the psychological/cultural process of Zero Tolerance…”
That should begin with informing “unbelievers” what Islam teaches–not arguing about what individual Muslims may know about it, may not know about it, or that they might be lying about it.
The poll misrepresented the issue–which failed to educate those “unbelievers”.
Try to stay on point.
“…which obviously translates to All Muslims.”
No, it does not. You do recall the “All American Muslim” television program, eh?
voegelinian says
PRCS says
October 16, 2015 at 6:11 pm
Dear Hesp,
You know full well that the dreaded A word is an unprovable opinion.
When or where did I ever say I don’t know that? The point is that assumptions contrary to the A word are also unprovable opinions. bolstered only by a reliance upon superficial data and a studious avoidance of the problem of taqiyya. Given the dangers we know (or should know by now) that we face from the Muslims who are a danger to us, we must err on the side of caution — just as when, for example, there are proven cases of a few instances of toxic beef that have killed a few people, all beef is interdicted and taken off the shelves by the FDA even though people may reasonably suppose the vast majority of beef that would be on the shelves are harmless. And our problem with Muslims is infinitely worse than that scenario.
PRCS says
“When or where did I ever say I don’t know that?”
As you really can’t read other people’s minds, and if you really do know that, then stop making references to it.
Instead, let’s talk about the impact the erroneous conclusion derived from the poll’s uninformed questioning had on the already–and consistently–misinformed American public.
voegelinian says
PRCS says
October 16, 2015 at 9:45 pm
[quoting me:] When or where did I ever say I dont know that?
As you really cant read other peoples minds, and if you really do know that, then stop making references to it.
This reaction by PRCS is not addressing my response, in which I argued that —
“The point is that assumptions contrary to the A word are also unprovable opinions. bolstered only by a reliance upon superficial data and a studious avoidance of the problem of taqiyya.”
— which means that those who are asserting the contrary which presumes a viable existence of harmless Muslims are also assuming mind-reading. A problem of 1.3 billion people belonging to a culture that endangers us in horrific ways (along with the problem of taqiyya cannot avoid the mind-reading assumption. The point then pivots to which side we err on: caution in order to protect our society, or generosity in order to avoid being “bigoted”. The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.”
And, of course, in par with the average voegelinian-esque post, not an atom of evidence to back that statement. That’s because it’s a blatant lie. We have gave, on many posts, ideas that could be placed into practice tomorrow (halting muslim immigration to the West, 24/7 surveillance of mosques, etc.). What have you offered as a viable alternative? Why, nothing. Zilch. Zero. Nada. Null. And since you have nothing good to offer, you do what you usually do, which is to be a s***ty person, insult and belittle anyone who’s not a total sycophant and trying to pretend you’re someone who is clever and understands everything better than we do, as opposed to simply trying to be someone with a goddamn thing of any value to say.
If you don’t like it, leave. You’ve been banned several times, so clearly no one is twisting your arm and forcing you to come here. Didn’t you recently stated that most people here are “fucktards” with a “strange brain impediment“? Do you stand by that?
voegelinian says
I wrote:
The point then pivots to which side we err on: caution in order to protect our society, or generosity in order to avoid being “bigoted”. The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.
And if any of the Counter-Jihad Softies might argue that they are not being motivated by their anxious ethical narcissism (fear of being “bigoted”), and if that’s actually true, then they have even less of a leg to stand on, since that irrational fear is at least a reason for why they promote erring on the side of this colossal problem that endangers our lives and the safety, lives and quality of life (freedom from the 1,001 types of traumatizing & outrageous camelshit Muslims bring to the world) which we are passing on to our next generations.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“I wrote:
The point then pivots to which side we err on: caution in order to protect our society, or generosity in order to avoid being “bigoted”. The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.
And if any of the Counter-Jihad Softies might argue that they are not being motivated by their anxious ethical narcissism (fear of being “bigoted”),”
Which we aren’t, as you very well know, since we’ve been through this before. We, unlike you, have a grasp on what we can legally do, or not, based on the existing laws. People who ignore the laws and instead do whatever they want are often called “criminals”.
“and if that’s actually true,”
See above.
“then they have even less of a leg to stand on,”
Again, see above.
“since that irrational fear is at least a reason for why they promote erring on the side of this colossal problem that endangers our lives and the safety, lives and quality of life (freedom from the 1,001 types of traumatizing & outrageous camelshit Muslims bring to the world) which we are passing on to our next generations.”
Except, like I stated, no one is suffering from an fear, irrational or not. We simply have our minds and bodies in the real world and we are, for the time being, playing with the hand we’re dealt in accordance to the rule of law.
A strawman, that is what that is – a piece of poorly written fanfiction meant to grossly misrepresent our stance so you can “defeat” the gross misrepresentation rather than actually address our actual arguments.
PRCS says
Still trying to read people’s minds, eh, Hesp?
You never did explain how–and to where–you plan to deport every Muslim in America.
Call me a Counter-Jihad realist.
PRCS says
Hesp,
I apologize.
You did tell me of your plan to strap parachutes on them, put them all in airplanes, and have them do the “Geronimo” thing.
I can’t imagine insurance companies signing off on that, though. Just a detail, I suppose.
But you didn’t say how you planned to get them all to the airplanes.
gravenimage says
PRCS wrote:
Thanks for your response, GI…
The problem is that most American citizens—if asked—have no idea what Shariah is; understanding it incorrectly (thanks to lazy “journalists”, politicians, and polls like this one) only as a set of unarguably barbaric laws which Muslims may freely choose to support or reject.
Of course, it’s much more than that. It’s the “straight path” all Muslims are expected to follow their entire lives and the link I posted states, “Shariah is an integral part of Islam.”
…………………………..
Thanks for your reply, as well.
PRCS, no one here cares if Muslims want to fast or pray five times a day or eschew eating pork or use Wudu baths or wipe their rear ends with an odd number of stones.
The implication that this is the heart of Shari’ah is quite misleading–Muslims in the United States can *already* practice such aspects of their faith under American law.
There is no need to impose Shari’ah for this.
Implying that Infidels concerned over the genuine barbarities of Shari’ah are “lazy” because they don’t throw in an automatic whitewash of Shari’ah is an odd one.
And the site you link to isn’t innocently covering the entirety of Islamic law–it is “Why Islam?”, a notorious Da’wa site intent on spreading Islam in the West–*including* Shari’ah law*.
More:
Most American citizens don’t know that, but most Muslims (all Muslims, perhaps) do know what it actually means and what it entails.
Knowing that sunrise to sunset fasting—a tenet of Shariah—is mandatory for most Muslims during Ramadan, how many Muslims in America fast because they know they’re supposed to or because “barbaric sharia law” might—or even should—be imposed upon them for not doing so?
…………………………..
Who cares? No non-Catholic cares if Catholics are keeping Lent or not, and no non-Jew cares if Jewish people are fasting during Yom Kippur or not.
But it *is* an issue if lax Muslims are being threatened or punished by their more orthodox coreligionists–or if Infidels are also compelled to submit to Islamic diktats–this is, in fact, exactly what happens under Shari’ah law, where those flouting Ramadan fasting are often arrested or flogged.
More:
I don’t know if the poll’s failure to address that was done intentionally or was a mistake
But for the purpose of that poll, had Shariah been first defined as that “straight path”, rather than misrepresenting it as just a set of punishments, the respondents could then have been asked if “divine laws” which violate the U.S. Constitution and the laws which flow from it should be imposed—here—for straying from Islam’s straight path.
…………………………..
You may believe that Muslims replying to this poll were only referring to to the few unobjectionable aspects of Islam which are already legal under civilized law–but, with respect, I believe this is just wishful thinking.
More:
IMO, as the “perversion/hijacking of Islam” by a “tiny minority of extremists” nonsense has so misinformed the average Joe and Jane, so too did this poll.
…………………………..
Well, this seems contradictory. First you argue–rightly–that the “tiny minority of extremists” meme is nonsense, then imply that it is likely that only a minority of Muslims who say they want Shari’ah law actually want Shar’ah law.
Don Foss says
Correct. Much of sharia can be practiced without any concern. What is a serious concern are the laws that are imposed on women in the back room mosques and community cenyters throughout America, mostly in Dearborn, Columbus, Murfreessboro, Seattle and the like with large Muslim communities. Many of those communities by-pass our laws and impose legal decisions of their own that violate the rights of American Muslims, mostly the women.
PRCS says
GI,
“PRCS, no one here cares if Muslims want to fast or pray five times a day or eschew eating pork or use Wudu baths or wipe their rear ends with an odd number of stones.”
Some certainly do and have said so–many times..
Lazy “journalists” who don’t define the issue, first. They could add something like–some Muslims believe, or most Muslims believe. Ditto for pollsters.
The notion that all Muslims believe a, b, and C or that all Muslims behave in accordance with x, y, and z is just speculation.
“those flouting Ramadan fasting are often arrested or flogged”
Not in America–the subject of the poll– and is that what the 51% are asking for? The poll apparently didn’t ask.
“You may believe that Muslims replying to this poll were only referring to to the few unobjectionable aspects of Islam which are already legal under civilized law–but, with respect, I believe this is just wishful thinking.”
I wonder what the 49% thought it meant.
“Well, this seems contradictory. First you argue–rightly–that the “tiny minority of extremists” meme is nonsense, then imply that it is likely that only a minority of Muslims who say they want Shari’ah law actually want Shar’ah law.”
I wonder if they really want the who enchilada. You know, public beheadings in Dearborn.
“There is no need to impose Shari’ah for this.”
Would the average American citizen know that from the poll?
I noted at the other thread that, if I’m not mistaken, RS makes no adamant assertions about an individual Muslim’s beliefs beyond their acknowledgement of the shahada.
Godless says
Voeg said “— which means that those who are asserting the contrary which presumes a viable existence of harmless Muslims are also assuming mind-reading.”
PRCS you didn’t really give an answer to this. Do you deny that it is true?
If you are against deporting them all it seems you would have to deny it is true otherwise there would be an inconsistency in your position. Unless you are willing to sacrifice the lives and freedoms of some non-Muslim Westerners in order to protect the “peaceful Muslims.
As for Angemon who said “Anyway, how can you tell a muslim from a non-muslim? For all your talk about “zero tolerance” and “prejudice” against “ALL muslims”, you’ve never told us how to actually tell who’s a muslim from who isn’t.”
This seems to be arguing that the reason we shouldn’t attempt to deport them all is because some would slip through therefore we should come up with a different plan. WTF?
One of Angemon’s solutions is to continue to allow Mosques to exist but just monitor them 24/7
Angemon says
Godless posted:
“As for Angemon who said “Anyway, how can you tell a muslim from a non-muslim? For all your talk about “zero tolerance” and “prejudice” against “ALL muslims”, you’ve never told us how to actually tell who’s a muslim from who isn’t.”
This seems to be arguing that the reason we shouldn’t attempt to deport them all is because some would slip through therefore we should come up with a different plan. WTF?”
It seems that way because a) you’re not very bright, b) you like to ascribe me words that I never said, and c) you’re relying on fallacious reasoning. For starters, how do you know that it would be only “some” who would “slip through”?
gravenimage says
PRCS wrote:
GI,
“PRCS, no one here cares if Muslims want to fast or pray five times a day or eschew eating pork or use Wudu baths or wipe their rear ends with an odd number of stones.”
Some certainly do and have said so–many times..
……………………………
I believe the main concern is that Islam *never stops* with uncoerced and non-violent expressions of faith. If you wand to believe that the main problem is Anti-Jihadists who are preventing Muslims for practicing their faith, go ahead. Where are Anti-Jihadists actually so persecuting Muslims? Nowhere I am aware of–certainly not in America.
Would that the opposite were true, and that Muslims were not persecuting and oppressing Christians and other Infidels.
More:
Lazy “journalists” who don’t define the issue, first. They could add something like–some Muslims believe, or most Muslims believe. Ditto for pollsters.
……………………………
This is, in fact, almost *always* the case. Most journalists are at great pains to whitewash Islam and assure us that the problem is “just a tiny minority of extremists”. I’m sorry you feel that they don’t go far enough in this regard.
More:
The notion that all Muslims believe a, b, and C or that all Muslims behave in accordance with x, y, and z is just speculation.
“those flouting Ramadan fasting are often arrested or flogged”
Not in America–the subject of the poll– and is that what the 51% are asking for? The poll apparently didn’t ask.
……………………………
My point is that your belief that support for Shari’ah must perforce be support for nothing but voluntary and non-violent aspects of Islam does not appear to hold water. Muslims demonstrating for the imposition of Shari’ah regularly demand the beheading of those who criticize Islam and other such draconian punishments–I don’t believe this is about fasting and prayers.
More:
“You may believe that Muslims replying to this poll were only referring to to the few unobjectionable aspects of Islam which are already legal under civilized law–but, with respect, I believe this is just wishful thinking.”
I wonder what the 49% thought it meant.
……………………………
Actually, it was only 39% of those polled said that Muslims in the U.S. should be subject to American courts, rather than Shari’ah courts.
https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/
Will that 39% stand up for us against their more orthodox coreligionists? I would very much doubt it. When has this ever happened historically?
And even if it *did*, somehow, these Muslims would be much outnumbered by their more orthodox fellows.
More:
“Well, this seems contradictory. First you argue–rightly–that the “tiny minority of extremists” meme is nonsense, then imply that it is likely that only a minority of Muslims who say they want Shari’ah law actually want Shar’ah law.”
I wonder if they really want the who enchilada. You know, public beheadings in Dearborn.
……………………………
How much Shari’ah would you be OK with? “Just” the institutionalized inferiority of women and Infidels? Amputations, perhaps? Floggings instead of beheadings?
I really doubt you would be happy living with this.
Besides, wherever Shari’ah is imposed, there is the Muslim desire to make it even more Islamic–this is why places that have already imposed many aspects of brutal Shari’ah–like Pakistan–still have Jihad insurgencies.
More:
“There is no need to impose Shari’ah for this.”
Would the average American citizen know that from the poll?
……………………………
I believe so. Do you really think that the average American citizen thinks that Muslims are being legally prevented from praying, fasting, or removing their shoes?
We *have* religious freedom in this country, and most Americans do indeed know this. It is only when Islam intends to impose its creed on others through bloody force that this becomes an issue.
More.
I noted at the other thread that, if I’m not mistaken, RS makes no adamant assertions about an individual Muslim’s beliefs beyond their acknowledgement of the shahada.
……………………………
Not sure what this is a reference to, PRCS. But this is not some wild speculation on Robert Spencer’s part that this is cause for concern–this is a freely taken poll. No Muslim was coerced into answering this poll, or in expressing his support for Shari’ah.
I think I will leave our exchange here, PRCS. I much appreciate your lengthy and considered replies to me.
I think I’ve made most of my points. We can agree to disagree. I believe you are mistaken in regarding Shari’ah as benign–and I will personally continue to fight its imposition here. You may, of course, disagree.
gravenimage says
Voegelinian wrote:
The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.
………………………….
Voegelinian, I have consistently urged that we rigorously enforce our *existing* laws in defense against Jihad–which we are *not* doing consistently now–before considering allowing Muslims to force us to change our laws, which would almost inevitably result in negative unforeseen consequences.
To bizarrely describe this as urging “generosity in order to avoid being ‘bigoted’” simply makes no sense.
There is, in fact, nothing “soft” about my stance, as you well know if you are being honest.
And I see that you have gone from demanding that I defend your views against other Anti-Jihadists to castigating me for not doing so to your tastes to deciding to regard me as one more of the posters with whom you have decided to maintain a running spat.
I have absolutely *no* interest in engaging in this, and will not be indulging you.
As I have said many times, I do not believe that this is useful to the Counter Jihad in any way.
voegelinian says
gravenimage says
October 19, 2015 at 3:10 pm
Voegelinian wrote:
The Counter-Jihad Softies (PRCS, Mirren, Angemon, gravenminage, Wellington, et al.) consistently and obtusely (not to mention outrageously given the mountains of data they are aware of reported here on Jihad Watch over the years) defend the latter.
………………………….
Voegelinian, I have consistently urged that we rigorously enforce our *existing* laws in defense against Jihad–which we are *not* doing consistently now–before considering allowing Muslims to force us to change our laws, which would almost inevitably result in negative unforeseen consequences.
gravenimage must have missed the many times I have argued that the West does not need to change its laws. So on that we’re in agreement. What constitutes “enforcing existing laws” is where we disagree. And that understanding logically hinges on what one thinks we have to enforce existing laws against. Apparently, gravenimage doesn’t think the danger Muslims pose against us to be as grave as I do, else she wouldn’t be in disagreement with me. Same for the other Counter-Jihad Softies (though their degrees of nougaty softness varies — witness PRCS here, who is well nigh on a par with Daniel Pipes (recently raked over the coals by Pam Geller, the Logan’s Watch blog, and excellently by David Solway — http://pjmedia.com/blog/islam-versus-islamism-inside-the-mind-of-an-anti-anti-jihadist/).
To bizarrely describe this as urging “generosity in order to avoid being ‘bigoted’” simply makes no sense.
There is, in fact, nothing “soft” about my stance, as you well know if you are being honest.
And I see that you have gone from demanding that I defend your views against other Anti-Jihadists to castigating me for not doing so to your tastes to deciding to regard me as one more of the posters with whom you have decided to maintain a running spat.
I have absolutely *no* interest in engaging in this, and will not be indulging you.
As I have said many times, I do not believe that this is useful to the Counter Jihad in any way.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“gravenimage must have missed the many times I have argued that the West does not need to change its laws. ”
I doubt she did. In fact, I believe GI knows the law and is simply trying to make sense of your diametrically opposed points: you want a) “total deportation” of “ALL muslims” while b) not changing any law. You can’t do a) without b) – that much should be obvious. And your insistence in going from point A (current situation) to point D (“deportation” based on professed religion) while claiming you don’t need to go through point C (change laws) should be more than enough to throughly discredit you.
“What constitutes “enforcing existing laws” is where we disagree.”
It’s simple: if there’s no law saying you can “deport” people based on their professed religion, or arrest, trial and condemn people without evidence because you can “reverse engineer” a story to explain why there’s no evidence they’re guilty, then they can’t be enforced. Because they don’t exist.
“ And that understanding logically hinges on what one thinks we have to enforce existing laws against.”
Is there any law outlawing islam or forbidding people form being muslim? Because, if I know you, you’re going to say something along the lines of “muslims are a clear, present danger, a metastasizing cancer, and the softies in the CJ movement just don’t want to go after them because they’re softies and underestimate the danger of the threat” without actually addressing GI’s point about existing laws – i.e., without giving any practical example of a law that’s not being enforced and that you would like to see enforced.
“Apparently, gravenimage doesn’t think the danger Muslims pose against us to be as grave as I do, else she wouldn’t be in disagreement with me.”
Huh, voeg? You’re not addressing the point you set yourself up to address. Saying that muslims are a grave danger changes nothing when it comes to enforcing existing laws. If a muslim is walking down the street, minding his own business and abiding by the law, what law are you going to “enforce” against him? WWM (walking while muslim)? Oh, wait, there’s no such law. All your little post did was set up to do was to throw more mud at gravenimage – if she doesn’t agree with you then she “doesn’t think the danger Muslims pose against us to be as grave”. Nothing more, nothing less.
voegelinian says
correction: I forgot to excise the rest of gravenimage’s post I quoted after the David Solway link I provided. I hope marc’s inferior comments tree layout here doesn’t confuse readers who might be trying to navigate amongst the various commentary Replies.
gravenimage says
Voegelinian wrote:
Apparently, gravenimage doesn’t think the danger Muslims pose against us to be as grave as I do, else she wouldn’t be in disagreement with me.
……………………….
Not so, Voegelinian. I just disagree with you that we can mass-deport on religious grounds using existing laws. And this is not a difference of opinion–I don’t believe anyone who knows the law would think this is currently possible under American law.
As I have said umpteen times, I agree with you that this may be ultimately necessary–but that I would not consider it until we rigorously enforce existing laws to defend against Jihad, which is being done no where in the West.
Again, I don’t believe there is anything “soft” about this.
PRCS says
GI,
PRCS says
October 16, 2015 at 1:41 am
“(thanks to lazy “journalists””
gravenimage says
October 18, 2015 at 1:25 am
“Implying that Infidels concerned over the genuine barbarities of Shari’ah are “lazy” because they don’t throw in an automatic whitewash of Shari’ah is an odd one.”
gravenimage says
October 19, 2015 at 12:01 am
“Lazy “journalists” who don’t define the issue, first. They could add something like–some Muslims believe, or most Muslims believe. Ditto for pollsters.
……………………………
This is, in fact, almost *always* the case. Most journalists are at great pains to whitewash Islam and assure us that the problem is “just a tiny minority of extremists”. I’m sorry you feel that they don’t go far enough in this regard.”
While I have enjoyed our soliloquy, I specifically referenced lazy “journalists”, so many of whom do indeed whitewash Islam—to the public’s detriment—by NOT noting what some Muslims believe and some don’t, not to concerned infidels.
You asked how much Shari’ah I’d be OK with? “Just” the institutionalized inferiority of women and Infidels? Amputations, perhaps? Floggings instead of beheadings?
As I’ve made clear my position of parallel legal systems, let me respond—unequivocally— to that condescending query by noting that despite your assertion that we *have* religious freedom in this country, the First Amendment does NOT permit religious practices which violate U.S. law.
That’s how much I’d be OK with.
gravenimage says
Glad to hear it, PRCS.
And I was in no way intending to be condescending to you in my reply–just noting that even the less bloody aspects of Shari’ah tend to be oppressive and Muslim supremacist.
PRCS says
The poll’s questions and its responses.
https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/
Ralph says
Here Is A Little Something About This Satan Islam… Their Founder Was A Pedophile, Murder, Rapist, Thief and Liar; So Does That Make Muslim’s Infallible? Or Stupid Idiot That Intend On Going To Hell For Ever?
Ever Think About Your “Brain Washing” From Birth And Following The Idiots To Paradise For The 72 Virgins; Just How Stupid Are You Anyway?
voegelinian says
Yes; when using the word “Law” to translate Sharia (I refuse to insert that PC MC apostrophe and/or that h, much less double the a like some kind of radioactive salmon’s eyes), we would have to magnify and distort our Western conception of Law considerably. It’s a similar problem we have when referring to Islam as a “Religion”.
As long as we keep in mind that Islam is unique, and uniquely pernicious (Webster’s: Having the quality of injuring or killing; destructive; very mischievous; baleful; malicious; wicked), and that any words & terms we use to translate its internal, infernal lexicon will not match the full magnitude of its malignancy and psychotic horror, we’ll be on the right track.
Mirren10 says
“Shariah is an integral part of Islam. It is often defined as ‘Islamic law,’ causing one to assume that it consists mostly of criminal rulings and penalties. However, Shariah encompasses much more than the conventional understanding of law. While Shariah provides the legal framework for the foundation and functioning of a society, it also details moral, ethical, social and political codes of conduct for Muslims at an individual and collective level.”
I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, PRCS.
Are you suggesting that islam has ”moral, ethical, social and political codes of conduct” **apart** from sharia ? If so, what are they ?
My understanding is that sharia, to muslims, is **allah’s** law, and therefore sacrosanct, and above *anything* else. If you have a different understanding, please explain.
PRCS says
“Shariah is an integral part of Islam. It is often defined as ‘Islamic law,’ causing one to assume that it consists mostly of criminal rulings and penalties. However, Shariah encompasses much more than the conventional understanding of law. While Shariah provides the legal framework for the foundation and functioning of a society, it also details moral, ethical, social and political codes of conduct for Muslims at an individual and collective level.”
You don’t understand the point I’m trying to make?
I didn’t write that, I posted it. Perhaps you missed the link.
http://www.whyislam.org/faqs/understanding-shariah/
“Are you suggesting that islam has ”moral, ethical, social and political codes of conduct” **apart** from sharia ? If so, what are they ?”
As I didn’t write that, no.
Too many Americans have bought into the “radical/extremist/perversion/hijacking” of Islam nonsense because that’s what they hear from lazy “journalists”, politicians, and others.
That the pollsters’ uninformed line of questioning (defining Shari’ah as merely a set of “barbaric laws” rather than it’s full role in Islam) resulted in the misleading conclusion that Muslims–in America–may freely reject from it what they wish is another example of that kind of nonsense.
As others have noted–I paraphrase–a Muslim who rejects any aspect of Islam’s teachings, commands and expectations is no longer a Muslim.
The public would not know that from the poll.
Mirren10 says
”That the pollsters’ uninformed line of questioning (defining Shari’ah as merely a set of “barbaric laws” rather than it’s full role in Islam) resulted in the misleading conclusion that Muslims–in America–may freely reject from it what they wish is another example of that kind of nonsense.”
OK. I think I understand what you mean, now.
Wellington says
Just look at that photo. In the background is an edifice which is representative of government of the people, by the people and for the people In the foreground are butts aplenty (really, Muslims, you could at least learn to pray with dignity instead of with your asses in the air) which are representative of government of Allah, by Allah and for Allah.
What a contrast. And what a mockery those butts make of the edifice before them because the owners of those butts would destroy what the edifice in the background stands for if only given the chance. A stunning photo to be sure. It’s got symbolism and message, not to mention beauty and ugliness at one and the same time, written all over it.
Edward says
“A stunning photo to be sure. It’s got symbolism and message, not to mention beauty and ugliness at one and the same time, written all over it.”
Yep Wellington, the photo endues symbolism and a message.
For one: The US Capital front steps faces due west, whose message is “Welcoming The WEST.”
And the symbolic meaning of the 1/2 prostrated clowns is: “This moon[ing] is for you, The WEST”
gravenimage says
All very true, Wellington.
citycat says
“he doesn’t know a single observant Muslim-American who wants to Islamize America”
probably he does, but the single muslim ain’t gonna tell him.
The truth is against Islam.
In contrast to Islamophobia, Muslims have a genuine condition, Truthophobia.
They don’t have to even acknowledge it as a phobia, it is inbuilt that lying to non- muslims is halal.
Truthophobia is Halal, hence the confidence with which Muslims lie in the name of God.
“in time this so-called democracy will crumble,”
Should that ever be seen to begin to happen, in Engeland at least, then upon the crumbling, and if there will be no law, no law to hinder infidels’ freedom, no law to arrest infidels, then i think “no surrender” will manifest in all its gory glory, things seem to be rolling that way.
somehistory says
This reminds me of an old cartoon…the guy bends way over and says, “Salami, salami, bologna.”
One has to wonder if Mr. Tapper is really telling the truth. Has he seen any women walking about with the scarf wrapped around her head and neck? Surely, he has seen at least one. Maybe he even *knows* such a person. He wouldn’t have to ask if she was *working* toward the establishment of the unlawful code of horrific restriction of freedoms.
fidobite says
The only thing the islamo-satanists will have to overcome is about a 150,000,000 gun carrying Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc, etc who will NEVER worship satan (allah) and would be more than happy to clean the islamic scourge from the face of the earth…that’s all. Prepare now for what I anticipate is an inevitability.
underbed cat says
Does CNN forbid employees from Google searches? Because if Tapper took the time and did a little surfing the web on terms like jihad, tacqyya, hinjra, sharia law, ikwan muslim brotherhood, insurgency, mecca, medina, war of the trenches, oic, organization of islamic cooperation, caliphate, resolution 1618 islamic slander laws, 13 part security briefing from the religion of peace by John Guandolo, Thomas Jefferson islam, life of mohammed, punishment of stealing, slander laws ( saying something truthful about islam that offend muslims) penalty of slander, death penalty for leaving islam, permissible lying in the koran, aborrgation of verses, life of mohammed, who was the greatest deceiver in the koran, Robert Spencer, former muslims, Holy Land Trial convictions, zakat, muslim student association, Cair, and surf the number of mosques built in U.S., who funds them, and who owns them…video’s of refugees landing in Germany, (results)Belgium, Sweden riots, Belgium riots, Christians and Jews killed in ME and the Beslan School Russia, he might get the idea that islam is way different from Christianity, but he may have to learn about it, and finally the command to not take infidels(non-believers as friends) and if you do, decieve them. Then the picture emerges.
Baucent says
“Does CNN forbid employees from Google searches? Because if Tapper took the time and did a little surfing the web on terms like jihad, tacqyya,…..”
That’s what an objective person would do. That’s what a real journalist would do. But “Progressive” Liberal types, and I assume Tapper is also one, don’t want FACTS muddying the ideological waters. They prefer blind ignorance.
Westman says
Tapper is not unusual, substituting personal anecdotes for a real survey.
I worked for a few years in a capacity than brought me in close proximity to reporters in a newsroom where I could hear the conversations about events. The personal biases were as great as any other segment of society and it bled into the writing. Particularly egregious was puposeful persecution of local people through sensationalizing the unsensational.
The laziness was palpable, a busy full newsroom before deadline, followed by lunch and drifting about, reading wire stories, then going out on leads, then back the next day a few hours before deadline.
Much of the reporter’s and editor’s beliefs about society came from wire stories that were written by national reporters so, in fact, the national reporters were controlling the narrative of the city’s news. About 40% of the local newspaper’s news content was wire stories and that content was chosen locally for sensation, appeal, and political agenda.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
The Muslims throngs on the lawn before the U. S. Capitol seem to be confusing it with the Kaaba. But the bigger scandal is that they are praying in the wrong direction. The photograph at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol
shows that that these salat-tossers are facing “the west front of the United States Capitol”, which means they are facing due east. That article says the Capitol is at 3853’23 N, 7700’33” W, which allows you to calculate the direction to Mecca. I don’t have my Qibla Qalqulator at hand, but the direction to Mecca from Washington, DC should be mostly north (along a Great Circle route).
According to Islamic science and elementary vector analysis, the effectiveness of your prayer is proportional to the cosine of the angle you deviate from the Qibla direction. For example,
cos(0 degrees) = 100% effective prayer
cos(20 deg) = 94% effective
cos(40 deg) = 77% effective
cos(60 deg) = 50% effective
cos(80 deg) = 19% effective
cos(90 deg) = 0% effective
Non-denominational prayer is bad enough; non-directional prayer is worse.
Westman says
Interesting observation, Mark.
Could that have some bearing on why Iran has been 3 years from a nuclear bomb for the past 11 years? All those two-dimensional Islamic assumptions in a three-dimensional world?
underbed cat says
When the earth completes it’s magnetic field change, the muslims will be utterly confused and scrambling. Just saying. te he
voegelinian says
I deeply doubt two things: 1) that this many Muslims as depicted in that photo, shepherded by lupine Imams, would not know which direction is the qibla; and 2) that knowing that direction, they would knowingly violate it.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
Thanks for your thoughts, voegelinian.
Well, this is something that can be checked. You express doubt that this crowd of Muslims are not facing Mecca. If you are right that they *are* facing Mecca, the implication is striking: that the government buildings in Washington DC were not laid out Masonically as alleged in
http://freemasonrywatch.org/washington.html
but instead were aligned with the qibla, by crypto-Mahometan Founding Fathers.
voegelinian says
“You express doubt that this crowd of Muslims are not facing Mecca.”
I didn’t say that.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
“I deeply doubt two things: 1) that this many Muslims as depicted in that photo, shepherded by lupine Imams, would not know which direction is the qibla; and 2) that knowing that direction, they would knowingly violate it.”
Dear voegelinian,
I am sorry I misinterpreted your words. I wanted to contact you privately to thrash it out, but
https://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705
does not provide an easy way to find your email address (maybe you wish to keep it private).
I took your (enthymematic) argument to be: “Surely the Muslims in this photo would know the correct direction to Mecca, and would not cooperate in qibla deviation merely for sake of a symmetrical photo-op. Therefore they *are* bowing toward Mecca, which the photo shows is also the direction of the main face of the U.S. Capitol. Therefore the U.S. Capitol surveyors must have deliberately oriented this building in the qibla direction.”
This presents a dilemma for the sincere Muslim. A symmetrical press photo might serve the propagandistic aims of the Ummah, but at the cost of diminished prayer-power, according to the Law of Cosines (Islamic version). This is the perfect question to pose at
http://islamqa.com/en
but its proprietor has never yet answered any of my questions.
dumbledoresarmy says
For the benefit of everyone who’s come on board here at this forum since a brilliant gentleman writing under the name “Hugh Fitzgerald” stopped writing articles and comments:
a classic from the jihadwatch archives. Seven years ago, but it hasn’t dated one iota.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/08/fitzgerald-muslims-and-america
“Fitzgerald: Muslims And America”.
Excerpt, to hopefully pique the appetite of anyone new to this topic and/ or this forum, who’s never heard of “Hugh”.
“If Muslims are “as American as apple pie,” are they as American as pumpkin pie, the pumpkin pie traditionally served at Thanksgiving, which like Independence Day, Memorial Day, and other national holidays, are not to be observed by observant Muslims, for only Muslim holidays, Muslim history, Muslim everything, counts?
“And one more question. If Muslims have no trouble at all being “as American as apple pie” then surely they have no trouble viewing the defining document of the American polity, the Constitution of the United States, as worthy of their complete loyalty. And that includes, of course, the guarantees of individual rights in the Bill of Rights. And since the Bill of Rights is so very close, in so many of its key provisions — freedom of speech, freedom of conscience (which naturally includes the right to apostatize) — to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, can we conclude that American-as-apple-pie American Muslims find it puzzling that all of the Muslim countries (save for the Shah’s Iran, and most temporarily and temporizingly) have failed to subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and instead have concocted a Muslim version, the so-called Cairo Declaration, which in every essential respect, involving individual rights, fatally vitiates the original, Universal Declaration?
“These people can carry on all they want with their bromides, and their pledges-of-fake-allegiance, but to the precise extent that they are True Believers in Islam, and Defenders of the Faith, to that exact extent they cannot conceivably owe their allegiance, above what Islam commands and prohibits, to the American Constitution. And that means no Believer who owes his loyalty to Islam and fellow members of the Umma, that is, no one calling himself a Muslim who is truthful about the requirements of this Total Belief-System and what it inculcates (above all, the division, permanent and immutable, between Believer and Infidel, until such time as Infidel becomes Believer), can conceivably owe his allegiance to a document that is flatly contradicted, in letter and spirit, by the Shari’a….”.
Click on the link, read the rest of it.
The ensuing discussion is well worth reading, as well.
gravenimage says
Yes–an excellent piece from Hugh Fitzgerald, DDA.
And, of course, this is not just an issue for Muslims in the United States, but Muslims anywhere in the West–indeed, anywhere in “Dar-al-Harb”.
Muslims are not loyal to any non-Islamic nation, and regard all Infidel lands as the “House of War”.
Michael Copeland says
Polls
Polls can be quite interesting, and can engender much discussion. However, one fact tends to be overlooked. Islam is not defined by polls. It actually does not matter how many muslims say they support this or that. Islam is defined by its source texts.
A muslim openly saying he does not want Sharia is no longer a muslim: he is an “apostate”, and can be freely killed by anyone “since it is killing someone who deserves to die” (Manual of Islamic Law, “Reliance of the Traveller”, o8.4). The Manual is available as a free download.
Democratic Westerners viewing polls instinctively think they can influence the results by earnest persuasion and winning of hearts and minds. Forget it. Hearts and minds are not available in Islam, amongst the Ummah, the muslim community.
“The Ummah possesses no power except to acknowledge and obey.”
Thus says the fatwa, or ruling, of the Secretary-General of the Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America, citing Koran 33:36 “they have no option”.
http://1389blog.com/2011/03/30/american-muslim-leader-issues-fatwa-against-democracy
See “Islam is Incompatible With Democracy” at LibertyGB:
http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/news-libertygb/6641-islam-is-incompatible-with-democracy
voegelinian says
“Polls can be quite interesting, and can engender much discussion. However, one fact tends to be overlooked. Islam is not defined by polls. It actually does not matter how many muslims say they support this or that. Islam is defined by its source texts. ”
It may not matter to Islam, but it matters to us. Our continued, persistent, implicit collective assumption in the West that innumerable Muslims do not, cannot support the perniciously seditious aspects of Islamic history & texts tends to reinforce our ongoing psychological & cultural predisposition to tolerate innumerable Muslims in our societies.
Add to that our continuing incoherent grasp of the nature of Islamic history & texts where it’s not even generally clear in our Western mainstream whether and to what extent Islamic history & texts are perniciously seditious (where the Discussion is riddled with misinformation-cum-disinformation, along with Tu Quoque fallacies and schools of red herrings darting this way and that), and you have a recipe for our ongoing, devolving Train Wreck of horrific disasters within the West in the coming decades.
Dave J says
Truly a revolting picture. It manages to capture the dumb servility, wrong headed humility, waste of time-utility, specious delusionary and mindless hostility of the Muslim proletariat.
All religions carry some of these burdens but Islam has taken it to the absurd limit.
خَليفة says
Time to label Islam as an enemy of the state. And treat all Islamic entities appropriately.
daniel sebold says
Ironically, if the fascists in Europe and America treat the Muslim immigrants the same way the Jews were treated, we may end up with another ultra leftist minority standing up for women’s, gay and transgender rights and turning out twenty-five percent of the Nobel Prizes in the sciences. They may even put and end to the hatred between Muslims and Jews. Pardon me if I go insane trying to figure this out.
ecosse14 says
In your dreams. Muslims in Europe wish to turn Europe Islamic . I don’t recall the jews calling for Mossic law to be introduced to Europe.
Equally to answer your earlier post one can be opposed to abortion without being a Christian and one can dislike the homsexual act without being a Christia n.
daniel sebold says
I am living in Saudi Arabia, and I dont see any attempt to force me to be a Muslim. I am totally accepted as a secular Christian.
Aton says
>>I am totally accepted as a secular Christian.
Really?
So you can build a church in Saudi Arabia?
So you can visit the Riyadh cathedral?
So you openly wear a cross in Saudi Arabia?
So you can stand on a street corner and preach in Saudi Arabia?
So you can have a Christian bumper-sticker in Saudi Arabia?
So you can try to convert a Muslim in Saudi Arabia?
So you can vote in Saudi Arabia?
So you can become a citizen of Saudi Arabia?
So you can become an M.P. in Saudi Arabia?
I think your primary goal in life is self-deception.
Aton
abad says
Secular Christian?
As in, only in the name of?
You’re a ripe target of conversion then for the Saudi Muslims.
daniel sebold says
True, I might become a Shiite just to piss off my Sunni students.
voegelinian says
“True, I might become a Shiite just to piss off my Sunni students.”
Say hi to Phillip Jihadski when you see him.
Angemon says
voegelinian posted:
“Say hi to Phillip Jihadski when you see him.”
You know, voeg, it’s impossible for anyone to take your victim playing, anger-filled diatribes about PJ seriously when you’re clearly obsessing over him. He hasn’t posted in what, months?, and you still can’t get over him, like he stood you up for prom or something. Sheesh, let it go! That infatuation can’t be healthy.
Mirren10 says
”I am living in Saudi Arabia, and I dont see any attempt to force me to be a Muslim. I am totally accepted as a secular Christian.”
Whereabouts in Saudi Arabia do you live ? Riyadh ?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-chop-square-beheading-453240
But obviously you just shut your eyes to all that. So long as no-one stops you from wearing your knee length shorts.
You are seriously lacking a moral compass. People like you make me physically ill.
Mirren10 says
What, exactly, is a ‘secular Christian’ ? If you ever had a an epiphany, and became a *religious* Christian, what then ? Would you still happily live in Saudi Arabia ?
daniel sebold says
Really? I have never met any queer bashing atheists, though I am sure such Stalinists exists, well taught by their Christian upbringing.
daniel sebold says
Okay, okay I am a Catholic atheist with no desire whatsover to build a church in KSA or China, preach about Jesus though I have talked about Jesus a little in the classroom, have students named Jesus (Eissa), Moses (Mousa), Ibrahim, etc. In the Hadeeths, quotes from Jesus are put into Muhammed’s mouth, so I will have my students respond to famous Muhammaeden quotes like, “Before removing the spec from someone else’s eye….” There is a church up in Jubail, just outside of town, and I have photographed it. I have quoted the Book Of Job about the creation of the Universe, God spread out the heavens, as well as the Quran which says basically the same thing.
. I have also taught my students about things that few Christian kids know about: stellar parallax, cepheids, A-1 SN, the CMBR and they all think that is cool, whereas most of the Christians I grew up with, including my moron kid brother, think that the Universe is ten thousand years old and that Lawrence Krauss is a moron,
As a male in Saudi Arabia, I have the exact same social restrictions that I have as a male in Minneapolis, Minnesota: I have to wear shorts that are knee length or lower. I have to wear a swimming suit that is knee length or lower. If I wear anything more revealing on the beaches or streets of Minneapolis I can be stalked by angry mysandrists, gay bashed by Christians, even confronted by the Police to be told that I am offending women and children. That is Minneapolis. That is the USA. Take a good look at it. It is not the gender bending seventies anymore and I dont want to live there anymore. I was welcomed back from the 91 Gulf War with a military gay witch hunt, relentless gay bashing at Mankato State University, the university of cultural diversity, so I left, and every time I go back to the States for a visit, it is the same old crap. That the Government is bringing Muslim extremists into the country is just a further tightening of the reigns. Sorry you are having so many problems back there, Christians. I hope you figure it out someday.
ecosse14 says
Daniel. I am really interested in this Christian church in Saudi. Can you inform us of the denomination and the number of services a week that are held.? Or is it a ruin?.
daniel sebold says
It is an archaeological ruin, the foundation of a tenth century Byzantine church outside Jubail. Sorry about the joke. I mentioned it to someone in town. I hope it is still there.
voegelinian says
Who the fuck is this daniel sebold? Another troll?
Angemon says
daniel sebold posted:
“Okay, okay I am a Catholic atheist with no desire whatsover to build a church in KSA or China, preach about Jesus”
Does that make you the religious equivalent of a Rachel Dolezal who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about #blacklivesmatter or a Caitlyn Jenner who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about transgender rights?
daniel sebold says
True. So many of my students hate Jews and love Hitler, though I dont think Hitler would have loved them. I am hoping that most Syrians are a cut above the rest, though the throat-cutting of an apostate boy last year in Aleppo was disturbing. I have no love for multiculturalists. Most would never bother living in these countries and learning the languages.
When I finish here I will head “home” to Bangkok for my freedom and will try and forget these problems. I think the USA will do okay with a few Muslims. Not sure about Europe. I dont know how the new immigrants will react to nude sunbathers in Munich’s English Garden. I think there is something wrong with Merkel. A year ago she did a speech proclaiming multiculturalism to be a failure. Go figure
Mirren10 says
”Okay, okay I am a Catholic atheist …”
And what on earth is a *Catholic* ‘atheist’ ?
Let me guess; you eat fish on Fridays, but don’t go to Mass or confession ? Do tell.
eduardo odraude says
Daniel Sebold looks at religion in exactly the way racists look at blacks: “they all look alike.”
Mr. Sebold: Even if all religions are nothing but a tissue of lies, different religions have very different social outcomes, depending on the particular character of those “lies.”
Sebold seems to think that the only difference between Jews and Muslims (again, he evidently thinks “they all look alike”) is that Jews have been oppressed by Europeans and Christians — thus he concludes that if European Christians oppress Muslims, Muslims, just like the Jews, will start earning tons of Nobel prizes in the sciences, economics, medicine, etc. This reveals that Sebold is quite uninformed about both the texts of Islam and of the Old Testament. His remarks about Christianity reveal the same. To him, all religions are pretty much equally dangerous to freedom.
His own comment shows that he knows Christians are supposed to “give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s,” but he finds they don’t obey this, because some of them are against abortion, deny evolution, etc. Sebold thus strains at the gnat just as much as he strains at all the camels that ever roamed the Arabian deserts.
The main reason Jews produce disproportionately large numbers of Nobel prizes in the sciences, while Muslims produce almost nothing, despite having 100 times the population of Jews, is the different core texts by which Jewish and Muslim culture were formed. According to the Old Testament, Jews were made in God’s image, children of God conceived as “Father,” and as “I Am”,” and were to imitate God’s creativity — for example, “to be fruitful and multiply,” as the Bible puts it. God, conceived as “I Am” and as Father tends to plant the seeds of “I Am,” namely individualism, in the Jews and their culture, and thus among the Christians. By contrast, the Qur’an specifically denies that Allah has any children, denies also that there is anything made in the likeness of Allah.
Qur’an 42:11: The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He hath made for you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.
Muslims are conceived as Allah’s slaves or servants, not as his children. Allah’s name does not mean “I Am.” I am just touching on the huge differences between Islam on the one hand and the Judeo-Christian tradition on the other, in order to explain the huge difference in social results. For a bit more, Daniel Boorstin’s book The Creators has a very short chapter comparing Islam with the Judeo-Christian tradition. One point Boorstin makes is that Allah is mainly a God of command and Fiat, whereas the Judeo-Christian God is mainly a God of creative work. Thus the Qur’an rejects the biblical notion that God had to rest after his 6 days work of creating the world. According to the Qur’an, Allah had no need to rest, because he doesn’t do any work in creating the world. Allah simply commands a thing to be, and it is. Allah is a Middle Eastern despot of the most absolute type. He is not a father. He need not obey any covenant. He is so absolute that he obeys only himself, he does not even need to obey reason. Thus the doors of ijtihad, or independent reason, were closed a millennium ago in Islam. A Muslim is to submit and obey absolutely, not reason independently. Obviously, not all Muslims are devout or informed about Islam, any more than any member of any other religion necessarily is.
If Sebold had his way, apparently, not only would Christians be forbidden from setting up a theocracy — something 99.9% of them reject in any case — but they would also be forbidden from participating in democracy at all. Apparently only those who are absolutely certain that abortion could not possibly be killing a human person should in Sebold’s view have any say about how tax dollars are spent on the unborn. To allow those who think abortion might be killing of a human individual to have any influence on the democratic process — why, that would be theocracy! What nonsense poor Sebold believes! As for government (“public”) schools and teaching of materialist evolution vs. creationism, I disagree with both doctrines, but the whole problem would go away if we simply applied the First Amendment to schooling and allowed each family to freely choose, or set up, schools for their children — instead of having schooling subject to government “school boards” and political majorities. We don’t have political majorities electing “newspaper boards,” deciding the content of newspapers — nor do we have political majorities deciding on what art people may look at, what books may be read or written — neither does the Constitution, properly understood, justify “school boards” and government run schools and curricula — whether those curricula teach creationism or materialist evolution. A poor family does not forfeit its First Amendment rights simply because it is poor and requires a voucher or other state economic help to educate its children. Any restrictions on curricula and schools should not be concerned with religion, science, atheism, or such issues, and should be the exception, not a general practice of government schooling. Health and safety laws for example are obviously constitutional. Laws against violent subversion and treason are obviously constitutional. But the government has no business interfering with education otherwise. Poor children have a right to an education, and to government support for that purpose, but the government has no right to interfere with a poor family’s right to determine the education of its children, unless violent subversion and treason is being taught, health and safety laws are being broken, or there is some other emergency situation. Whether a groups seeks to gain a school board majority in order to force creationism or evolution is not the point. Nobody should be able to force any curriculum on a family, apart from the exceptional cases mentioned.
daniel sebold says
I have never said anything of religions close to the idea that “They all look alike” You are dishonest in ascribing quotes to me that I have never said. Your contrasts between Islam and Judaism are non sequitur gibberish and have nothing to do with the reason why Einstein came up with relativity and why Christians and Muslims are for the most part scientifically illiterate.
My Shiite students here in the Middle East have turned out to be by far and away my finest students. They are an impoverished class of fishermen and farmers who work extremely hard at their schooling, but who have been terribly abused by the wealthy materialistic Sunni majority. I don’t know, but, hey, they remind me of the Jews for whatever it is worth.
As for the abortion issue, you and the Jewish feminists can have it and squabble about it all you want. If push comes to shove I will give all my support to Ms Steinem and Ms Friedan that I can, but if they lose, then so be it. Feminism has always been a weak ideology ripe with sexist hypocrisy. There is only so much men, who have been mostly excluded from the movement, can do for it.
eduardo odraude says
Daniel Sebold,
Apologies, I was quoting racists, not you. “They all look alike” was intended not as a quote, but as a paraphrase of your generalized contempt for religions, as though they were all alike — your expressed contempt for Christians for example, in a comment above, your equation between Jews and Muslims, in another comment above.
I acknowledge I was not careful enough with the use of quotation, and that it could easily look like I was quoting, rather than paraphrasing you, when in fact my intention was to quote racists, and draw an analogy between the racist position on blacks (“they all look alike”), and your position on religion, namely your implication that they are all more or less similar in what you seem to take as the benighted, unenlightened, oppressive effects of religion on civilization. I should have been clearer that I was not quoting you, but rather quoting racists, in order to sum up your position of vague, uninformed, contempt toward religion in general. The confusion caused with the quotation was my mistake. The rest I believe I can stand by. As for feminists, I said nothing about them, and don’t know why you bring them up. I will apologize further if I have mischaracterized your position on religion, for which you seem to have the generalized undiscriminating contempt of the uninformed.
daniel sebold says
Since Einstein was an atheist–and he was an atheist–he strongly made clarification to the fact that he didn’t believe in God–the reason why there have been so many great Jewish scientists has to have something to do with something other than the Bible. The reason why my Shiite students are so much better than my Sunni students has to be in spite of what they read in the Quran, and more to do with reaction to the social and religious bigotry directed against them, the cognitive dissonance of religious oppression. That is my only point.
I see no evidence at this time that the Abrahamic faiths are bringing peace to the world, nor do I see any evidence of tolerance in any of the cultures associated with any of these belief systems. I have only to turn on CNN to see how well you guys are getting along in your police state. I consider Bangkok my home, a strongly Buddhist city, and to eschew my birthplace country, the USA, and its violence and religious hatreds when I am between jobs. Not all religions are the same.
eduardo odraude says
Daniel Sebold,
So you think all “Abrahamic” religions are the same apparently, at least on any factors that matter — and Buddhism is to be preferred. Though I disagree that Buddhism is to be preferred, I can respect your view that it is to be preferred. I can’t respect your view — at least it seems to be your view — that the Judeo-Christian tradition is basically no better than the Islamic one in any factors that matter. Notice that I am not talking about whether any of these religions are true. Even supposing they all are false, the Judeo-Christian religion is profoundly more humanitarian and tends much more toward individual freedom than does Islam. Even atheists should know about that and acknowledge its importance. Islam is unambiguously totalitarian in its prime exemplar Muhammad and in its core texts. Nothing like that is true of either Judaism or Christianity. That is an essential difference in terms of social results, even if none of the religions are true.
What’s more I never said that the Bible was the sole or sufficient source of science, though the scientific revolution took place in the Christian world and flourished there in significant part because most Christians, for the most part, at most times, supported it. It is no accident that science has had much greater difficulties over the long run in the lands of Islam..
Your reference to the U.S. as a “police state” is also an error. “Police state” means a hardcore dictatorship, as I’m sure you know very well. Your use of “police state” is like when some people in the US use hyperbole to refer to Republicans in the U.S. as Nazis. You don’t have to be Republican to grasp that calling Republicans Nazis and the U.S. a police state is irresponsible hyperbole that trivializes the actual thing for which the words used would be appropriate, namely real Nazis and a real police state. If you were forced to live in a real police state, I’ll bet you would not dare to trivialize that experience by bandying about the word “police state” when what you really mean is a liberal democracy with an extraordinarily free press but with an unfortunately high crime rate with accordingly high rates of incarceration. That is something utterly different from a police state. When you inflate the meaning of words you debase the language as surely as the money currency is reduced in value if you print more and more without increasing the actual GDP.
daniel sebold says
Dear Edwardo: I live in a police state, a religious police state called Saudi Arabia, so it is not possible for me to trivialize the experience. I have also traveled seventy-five countries around the globe, many of which are supposed police states, but are ultimately no more or less free than the USA. Maybe you had better take the red pill. I am a 91 Gulf War veteran who, when he came home from the war, was subjected to reckless gay witch hunts fabricated by the Naval Investigative Service and was subjected to endless gay bashing just for being an older non traditional student wearing seventies style runners on campus. I was endlessly harassed and stalked by campus security while on the GI Bill at Mankato State University, Minnesota’s premier institution for cultural diversity, in fact, the school was claiming that title even back then. The fun of being an American war veteran perceived as gay is that you have fewer rights than the foreign students who are harassing you.
The irony is that I am not gay, have never lived anything close to a gay lifestyle, and no one accuses me of it here in the land of Wahabee fundamentalism. The last time I went back to the States, San Francisco Immigration grilled me repeatedly for a half an hour on “Why are you here?” and “How long are you going to be here?” Well.gee I am an honorably discharged war veteran born in Iowa. I watched Harmon Killebrew hit homeruns at Metropolitan Stadium in Minneapolis when I was a kid. My family is from here. Could it be that the USA is my home country?. I am treated much better at Thai Immigration: a quick look at my passport, “Welcome back,” stamp, and I am home.. .
When I see a video of a lovely young black woman in Texas being brutalized by a Texas ranger after she failed to use her turn signal at a traffic light and because she refused to put out her cigarrette while in her car, then was put into isolation and neglected for three days and committed suicide, when I read stories about a woman in Tampa being assaulted by a police officer after dropping her kids off to school because she had tinted plates on her car, what am I supposed to think of the USA? Do you have any idea what you look like from here? Do you have a clue what you look like from inside the Saudi religious police state? This shit doesn’t happen here. It doesn’t. The police could care less if you use your turn signal or have tinted plates. They laugh at such an anal culture
bill walker says
Religions are famous worldwide for being divisive. Even when all parties call themselves Xians. I’m glad always, that I put it behind me about 70 years ago. Currently the Muslim ‘faith’ has all of the great many ‘branches’ of Xianity unified against the threat to peace that it presents. No wonder America’s founders established separation of Church / State in our Constitution.
gravenimage says
daniel sebold wrote:
Ironically, if the fascists in Europe and America treat the Muslim immigrants the same way the Jews were treated, we may end up with another ultra leftist minority standing up for women’s, gay and transgender rights and turning out twenty-five percent of the Nobel Prizes in the sciences….
……………………………..
Are you characterizing anyone who dares express concern over Jihad terrorism as “Fascist”? And your implication that Jews were attacking and murdering people in the name of their faith is simply grotesquely false.
Further, your implication that Jews excel in the sciences because of the Holocaust makes no sense–instead, it is the values and culture that Jewish people embrace. There is *nothing* similar in Islam.
More:
They may even put and end to the hatred between Muslims and Jews. Pardon me if I go insane trying to figure this out.
……………………………..
I believe you are already insane–or at least feigning insanity. The truth is that homicidal Jews hatred in Islam much predates the phenomenon of Fascism, and is entirely independent of it. It dates, in fact, back to the “Prophet” himself.
More:
I am living in Saudi Arabia, and I dont see any attempt to force me to be a Muslim. I am totally accepted as a secular Christian.
……………………………..
I won’t even ask what a “secular Christian” is. I suppose you accept the Muslim idea that all Westerners are “Crusaders”, regardless of their actual faith.
But if you believe that you are regarded as an equal to Muslims in the Shari’ah hell hole of Saudi Arabia, then you are truly in denial.
More:
True, I might become a Shiite just to piss off my Sunni students.
……………………………..
Are there any values you adhere to at all?
More:
Really? I have never met any queer bashing atheists, though I am sure such Stalinists exists, well taught by their Christian upbringing.
……………………………..
Do you care that you live in a place where men are flogged if suspected of being gay? Or do you pretend they are “totally accepted” as well?
More:
Okay, okay I am a Catholic atheist with no desire whatsover to build a church in KSA or China, preach about Jesus though I have talked about Jesus a little in the classroom, have students named Jesus (Eissa), Moses (Mousa), Ibrahim, etc. In the Hadeeths, quotes from Jesus are put into Muhammed’s mouth, so I will have my students respond to famous Muhammaeden quotes like, “Before removing the spec from someone else’s eye….” There is a church up in Jubail, just outside of town, and I have photographed it. I have quoted the Book Of Job about the creation of the Universe, God spread out the heavens, as well as the Quran which says basically the same thing.
……………………………..
Do you care about any of the savage violence in the Qur’an? That isn’t ‘basically the same thing’ as the Bible at all.
More:
I have also taught my students about things that few Christian kids know about: stellar parallax, cepheids, A-1 SN, the CMBR and they all think that is cool, whereas most of the Christians I grew up with, including my moron kid brother, think that the Universe is ten thousand years old and that Lawrence Krauss is a moron,
……………………………..
The idea that Christians are not allowed to learn about science is utterly false. There are, in fact, a great many scientists who are Christian.
More:
As a male in Saudi Arabia, I have the exact same social restrictions that I have as a male in Minneapolis, Minnesota…
……………………………..
Good grief, what utter rot. People in Minneapolis don’t have to live under oppressive Shari’ah law. I suppose you don’t care about freedom at all.
And does the oppression of women concern you at all?
More:
If I wear anything more revealing on the beaches or streets of Minneapolis I can be stalked by angry mysandrists, gay bashed by Christians, even confronted by the Police to be told that I am offending women and children. That is Minneapolis. That is the USA…
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Good grief…
More:
Take a good look at it. It is not the gender bending seventies anymore…
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…and it is in the sanguinary “Kingdom”?
More:
…and I dont want to live there anymore. I was welcomed back from the 91 Gulf War with a military gay witch hunt, relentless gay bashing at Mankato State University, the university of cultural diversity, so I left, and every time I go back to the States for a visit, it is the same old crap. That the Government is bringing Muslim extremists into the country is just a further tightening of the reigns. Sorry you are having so many problems back there, Christians. I hope you figure it out someday.
……………………………..
So you live in the “Kingdom of the Two Holy Places” to avoid gay bashing? Perhaps sanity really isn’t high on your list. How close is SA to accepting gay people in the military? To gay marriage? Waiting…
More:
It is an archaeological ruin, the foundation of a tenth century Byzantine church outside Jubail. Sorry about the joke. I mentioned it to someone in town. I hope it is still there.
……………………………..
Ruins are the best you can hope for for any non-Muslim place of worship in this most Islamic of places.
More:
True. So many of my students hate Jews and love Hitler, though I dont think Hitler would have loved them.
……………………………..
Hitler openly admired Islam, as a martial creed.
More:
I am hoping that most Syrians are a cut above the rest, though the throat-cutting of an apostate boy last year in Aleppo was disturbing.
……………………………..
Are they Syrians in the sanguinary Islamic State a “cut above the rest”, as well?
More:
When I finish here I will head “home” to Bangkok for my freedom and will try and forget these problems. I think the USA will do okay with a few Muslims. Not sure about Europe.
……………………………..
Do you regard skyrocketing Jihad terror attacks as our “doing fine”?
And what do you suppose will happen to Thailand with its burgeoning Jihad in the south?
More:
I dont know how the new immigrants will react to nude sunbathers in Munich’s English Garden…
……………………………..
So you admit that Muslims are apt to react with violence when presented with Western freedoms. Odd that Christians do not do the same, as you imply they would.
More:
I have never said anything of religions close to the idea that “They all look alike” You are dishonest in ascribing quotes to me that I have never said. Your contrasts between Islam and Judaism are non sequitur gibberish and have nothing to do with the reason why Einstein came up with relativity and why Christians and Muslims are for the most part scientifically illiterate.
……………………………..
What utter rot. Of course philosophy makes a difference to how people think and act. And your characterizing Christians as “scientifically illiterate” is absurd.
More:
My Shiite students here in the Middle East have turned out to be by far and away my finest students. They are an impoverished class of fishermen and farmers who work extremely hard at their schooling, but who have been terribly abused by the wealthy materialistic Sunni majority. I don’t know, but, hey, they remind me of the Jews for whatever it is worth.
……………………………..
Odd that the Jews are not hanging gay people from cranes and stoning women to death as they are in the Shi’ite Islamic Republic of Iran.
More:
I see no evidence at this time that the Abrahamic faiths are bringing peace to the world, nor do I see any evidence of tolerance in any of the cultures associated with any of these belief systems…
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Only Muslims and those who have swallowed their bs refer to the “Abrahanic faiths”.
More:
I have only to turn on CNN to see how well you guys are getting along in your police state.
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You regard the United States as a “police state”, but Are fine with the oppression of Saudi Arabia? Good God…
Marty says
Things are worse in the UK.
Our so called governments have allowed the Saudis & Qtaris to set up mohammedan schools,
& adding insult to injury the UK taxpayer is forced to pay for UK state mohammedan schools.
Additionally, mohammedans are colonising & exerting undue influence on normal state schools.
The result is hundreds of thousands of ill educated misfits taught, at our exopense, to hate us.
G179 says
51%? Probably all the males.
Aton says
A 5th column?
Indeed – the 5 pillars or columns of Islam. And each one of them seeks to destroy the West.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam
abad says
Hey if they want to live under Sharia laws then I suggest they all move to Saudi Arabia.
I am happy to have my tax dollars pay for their one-way ticket to the sandbox.
ecosse1314 says
So Daniel this Church you mentioned is a ruin. Can you tell us of any functioning churches in Saudi?
Furthermore in 50 odd years as an RC I have never met an RC creationist; whilst I am sure there maybe one or two they are as rare as churches in Saudi.
daniel sebold says
I did hear something a few years back about an attempt to allow Christian churches into the KSA, but don’t know or care enough about the issue to pursue it. The KSA is what it is and it would probably be imprudent for a “secular Catholic” like myself who loves the Vatican Art Museum and the beauty of the Gospel Of Mark or for a true Christian like yourself to attempt to bring Jesus to the land of Big Al.
You are right about RC’s not being creationists. The Catholic Church accepted Darwin many decades ago I suspect. I would have to check on it. I remember my father showing me a National Geographic with Leaky’s 1470 Skull on it when I was a sixth grader. I swallowed it as it were the red pill and it was all over. The numbers just didn’t add up after that.
I have taught and worked in some nasty places in this country, but the Yemen border area, though rife with periodic Scud attacks, has the nicest, friendliest, most spiritual people. The rural areas seem to be more friendly and less arrogant and materialistic than the big cities, but you had better be nice to Big Al.
gravenimage says
More from daniel sebold:
the Yemen border area, though rife with periodic Scud attacks, has the nicest, friendliest, most spiritual people.
…………………………..
What could be nicer, friendlier, and more spiritual than periodic Scud attacks?
More:
The rural areas seem to be more friendly and less arrogant and materialistic than the big cities, but you had better be nice to Big Al.
…………………………..
And what would happen to you if you *weren’t* “nice to Big Al”? My guess is that your life would not be safe.
Really, what could be friendlier? sarc/off
peter Hyatt says
where does this end?
http://analysistomorrow.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-third-european-world-war.html
Terry Gain says
The actual number of Muslims who prefer a theocracy to a democracy is closer to 100 %. Otherwise they wouldn’t be Muslims. Wake up America. Read about the history of Islam.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
51% of all U.S. Moslems prefer Sharia
60% of young U.S. Moslems more loyal to Islam than to U.S.
These numbers are low. The real number would be closer to 100%, albeit I’m sure there are some apostates (aka “cultural Moslems”). The trend is in keeping with other observations, the younger the Moslem the more observant. As Fitzgerald noted in here recently, it is interesting that Moslem converts tend to be murderous because they have recently absorbed the scriptures. The same can be said for young born Moslems, who’ve got to the age of studying their “religion” scriptures in detail.
You’d think this would impel at least consideration of stopping all Moslem immigration. At least there should be a special tax levied on Moslems to help defray the expense of policing them to help stop mass murder of Infidels, as commanded in the Holy Ko-Ran. The government, of course, has never reported the costs of monitoring “terrorism”.
duh_swami says
Allah has already defined the rules and the laws of Islam. A Mahoundian who objects is takfir,, an apostate, and may be guilty of ‘warring with Allah,’ and spreading mischief in the land’, blasphemy, and slander . And if they escape the lynch mob, they still have to fave Allah and explain it to ‘it’.’ ..As you can tell by his writings, Allah is never in a good mood unless its torturing and burning kuffar and takfir Mahooundians with lame excuses…
I don’t trust anyone who believes Allah is God, or any polls about it…
Edward says
Earlier fidobite (October 16, 2015 at 12:01 am) wrote this thought of valuable wisdom:
“Let it suffice to say that islam is incompatible with the modern Western values of freedom and democracy. The two will never mix, violence is inevitable and islam will lose. The only question is when.”
To his comment I would like to add another factor of life, especially to those that are adherent to a faith as being part in their daily personal existence. The most prominent Deities’ in the world is the God of the Ten Commandments and Allah for the followers of Islam. Each named deity has very own and distinct natural set of attributes that sets them apart!
Basically:
For Islam’s Allah, who expects from its believers total submission of its tenets as written in the Koran. Lack of adherents obedience of its written word, the member(s) of Islam faces mortal punishments..
For the adherents of the God of the Ten Commandments, who are believers of their God to be a ‘God that is long-suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance Re: 2 Peter 3:9
In conclusion:
One Deity that wants you to be eternity bound is always in His mind, as a reward.
The other is for those they are gluttons for punishment and a disastrous dead end, before their Paradise arrival. The one that disperses fear to keep the believers in lockstep with its Theocracy ideology!
One Deity enhances humanity and the other demises’ humanity. Enhanced humanity glorifies the true God. Diminishing of humanity seems to bring favor to the other one.
And yes, I am truly biased towards to the love of the divine God that enhances us and gives us hope; not the non-divine one that destroys hope and its believers for his self serving and false self appeasement!
daniel sebold says
You guys ought to convert to Islam right now. Who wants to be out of touch of where America is heading? And, as with any true red white and blue American why would you guys want to be out of step with the times? It’s funky Islam’s time. I can just see it now: three hundred and seventy-million Americans mindlessly converting to Islam because it is such a groovy fun-loving religion with sexy girls at the beach in their flower-print abayas ready to go forth and multiply another half a billion sharia loving children. I know I was convinced when the ISIS swept into Syria and started decapitating everyone. Hey, now that is so me. I want to be in on this. I think I will put on my burka hip hop shorts and head to the beach right now.
Edward says
Hum, you can always expect devil proxies reaction when a biblical passage is cited.
Kind of proves that the Islamic movement is actually a spiritual based warfare!
Well, the ISIS movement can be easily knocked out by other means than the use of the sword!
Great!
evosse14 says
Daniel I would quit now. You are sounding more and more of an arse.
daniel sebold says
Sorry. Sarcasm just doesnt seem to work back there
daniel sebold says
Sorry. Sarcasm doesn’t seem to work back there.
gravenimage says
What could be more amusing than the spectre of Americans mass converting to the horrific creed of Islam?
If you don’t consider this a laugh riot, clearly you are lacking in a sophisticated sense of sarcasm like daniel sebold…
Mirren10 says
”Daniel I would quit now. You are sounding more and more of an arse.”
Yep. a mega wanker.
f c king says
Islam has proven itself, since its beginning, to be nothing more than a disease, much like small pox.
It’s time for the world to treat isalam as a disease, and eradicate, and contain it. Just like small pox.
No Fear says
The quotes from the various Islamic leaders about America simply prove that they are my political enemies. They make no secret of their disdain of American (and other) democracies. Enemies of democracies are enemies of mine.
Wellington says
This “daniel sebold” has troll written all over him. Whether a Muslim or a Leftist, reasonable minds can differ (fitting and telling, I might add, that the distinction is sometimes hard to discern) but that he is a troll there can be little doubt. He is here to derail this thread. That is his real purpose.
Mirren10 says
Spot on, Wellington.
voegelinian says
Among other erroneous zones one can detect riddling his posts, sebold thinks Shiites are somehow magically different from Sunnis:
daniel sebold says
September 7, 2015 at 12:18 am
The Shiites in Syria have especially been slated for decapitation. They are the impoverished fisherman and laborers of the Middle East who really do value education, work very hard in school, have no wasta. Where are they among all those Sunnis who are simply running to Europe because of envious greed. My Shiite students were far superior to the Sunnies in the classroom
voegelinian says
And a spasm of preposterous Equivalencism:
daniel sebold says
August 29, 2015 at 3:25 pm
…Young people badly need to be taught how to think rationally and scientifically, and English departments with half of their professors being Christian creationists or Muslim apologists are intellectually worthless domains.
Christian creationists making up half of English departments in Academe? More like 70% are anti-Christian Islamophiliac Leftards, and among the rest you won’t be able to find statistically significant Christian creationists.
daniel sebold says
I have no love for Islam, nor the abuses of the Christianity I grew up with which are still very much alive in the USA. I do live in the Middle East and speak Arabic, served as an Arabic linguist in the 91 Gulf War, was subjected to gay witch hunts by the Naval Investigative Service when I came home–American Christian military theology. This is what you Christians have to offer your Veterans. You are no better than the Muslims you despise I don’t have time for a country like the USA, where half the population, be they Muslim or Christian, believe that the world is ten thousand years old, and who cowardly turn on their veterans when they come home from war. We lost over 53,000 men in the Vietnam War. Over 54,000 committed suicide after they came home. More Afghan War vets also have committed suicide than have died in Afghanistan. Nothing has changed, the same old religious extremism that turns on its own people and devours them. You don’t care about those of us who have fought the wars here in the Middle East, and you know so little about the people over here..
Angemon says
daniel sebold posted:
“I have no love for Islam, nor the abuses of the Christianity I grew up with which are still very much alive in the USA. I do live in the Middle East and speak Arabic, served as an Arabic linguist in the 91 Gulf War, was subjected to gay witch hunts by the Naval Investigative Service when I came home–American Christian military theology. This is what you Christians have to offer your Veterans. You are no better than the Muslims you despise I don’t have time for a country like the USA, where half the population, be they Muslim or Christian, believe that the world is ten thousand years old, and who cowardly turn on their veterans when they come home from war. We lost over 53,000 men in the Vietnam War. Over 54,000 committed suicide after they came home. More Afghan War vets also have committed suicide than have died in Afghanistan. Nothing has changed, the same old religious extremism that turns on its own people and devours them. You don’t care about those of us who have fought the wars here in the Middle East, and you know so little about the people over here..”
Not much to see here, just another of them “blame everything wrong with America on Christianity, use false equivalence to give islam a free-pass” folks…
daniel sebold says
Not much here, just another self-righteous Christian who thinks that Jesus is coming in his lifetime and that the world is ten thousand years old. Screw the vets when they come home. Accuse them of being closet homosexuals and closet Muslim extremists.
Angemon says
daniel sebold posted:
“Not much here, just another self-righteous Christian who thinks that Jesus is coming in his lifetime and that the world is ten thousand years old. Screw the vets when they come home. Accuse them of being closet homosexuals and closet Muslim extremists.”
I stand corrected: just another of them “blame everything wrong with America on Christianity, use false equivalence to give islam a free-pass” folks suffering from paranoid delusions causing him to see his nemesis (Christians) everywhere. Probably a closet muslim by the looks of it – he’s already proficient in “blame Christians for everything”.
Wellington says
I think, voegelinian, that ds in his hysterical 8:09 P.M. post reveals that he is suffering from 1) a terrible case of moral equivalency thinking—-he actually asserted, in effect, that the Christian world has created no better world than has the Muslim world, to wit, “You are no better than the Muslims”; 2) a general ignorance about the vast difference between the Christian theological blueprint and the Islamic one———and theory matters often times, as here. I fear daniel sebold gets little to none of this.
Joseph says
@ daniel sebold
Who told you we Christians think the Earth is 10 thousand years old? Those of us that believe in a young Earth say it is 6 thousand years.
This tells me that you are about as intelligent as the dribble on your chin.
You also should see a doctor about your delusions. As a Christian I am all for our veterans, they have earned their respect and should receive the best care possible.
Left unchecked it is people like you that give Christians AND vets a bad name.
You said ” I do live in the Middle East and speak Arabic, served as an Arabic linguist in the 91 Gulf War, was subjected to gay witch hunts by the Naval Investigative Service when I came home–American Christian military theology.”
So which is it? You do live in the ME, or in the USA?
You also said “You don’t care about those of us who have fought the wars here in the Middle East, and you know so little about the people over here..”
So you do live in the ME!!!!
Daniel you are a Muslim apologist and a very bad one at that. Take your crap elsewhere
gravenimage says
Agreed, Wellington, Mirren, Voegelinian, and Angemon.
daniel sebold saying he has no “time for a country like the USA” while uncritically spending time in one of the most horrifying Shari’ah states is grotesque–as is claiming that those opposed to Jihad “know so little about the people over here”.
Whereas the case is that we know a *great deal* about Islamic hell holes such as Saudi Arabia–and do not intend to stand by while supremacist Muslims try to turn the United States or any other part of the West into a similar unfree tyranny.
daniel sebold says
No westerner lives Saudi Arabia because they like it here. I apologize if I became too cynical in my views. It is wrong to assume that because I live here that I support the decapitation of homosexuals and the abuse of women, anymore than that because I served in the US Navy I supported the gay witch hunts of the Naval Investigative Service back in the early nineties, or than that because I fought in the first Gulf War that I supported our bombing of water filtration plants in southern Iraq, which was a terrorist act. I would love to return to a nice community in the USA and live and work, but there are no jobs back there and no help for the veterans.
I am making enough money to retire in Thailand, a country that requires all children be they gay or transgender to join the scouts when they go to school. I feel that Thailand is a freer country for me.
I agree that Saudi Arabia has much worse human rights problems than the USA–I have some strange stories to tell, have watched some of my students bleed to death, lose their legs–but when you see videos of a lovely young black woman in Texas being brutalized by a cop over a failure to use a turn signal, put in isolation for three days, then the poor woman commits suicide, or when you see videos of a black woman in Florida being beaten after dropping her children off to school over a tinted license plates–I have lived and traveled in dozens of police states like Saudi Arabia as well as Yemen, Syria, Myanmar, El Salvador, Colombia, China, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Cambodia–frankly the police and rent a cop situation in the USA is very disturbing.
I am deeply worried about what is going on in Germany and in the original hometown of my youth, Minneapolis. I am puzzled as to why my alma mater, Mankato State University, back in the nineties was so rabidly anti gay while claiming to be a university of cultural diversity. I am very puzzled by that and feel to characterize the multiculturalism movement as a leftist movement concerned about women and gay rights is insane. It may give lip service to gay rights now, but at the inception of the movement a foreign student from a fascist South American dictatorship back in the nineties who hated homosexuals had far more rights to abuse a gay war veteran than the veteran had to complain about it.
Recently at Mankato State University, the liberal multiculturalist administration violated the rights of its head football coach falsely accusing him of being a pedophile because he had a video on his cell phone of his toddlers dancing naked in his living room. This is mulitculturalism at “leftist” Mankato State University: family nudity in the homes of Americans of northern European decent is seen as child abuse, but having Somali Cultural night where nothing is said about the female genital mutilation practices as well as the death penalty for homosexuals in Somalia in a community like Mankato where many of its churches ban gay children from attending mass–there is nothing liberal or leftist about the multiculturalism movement. You dont want to be gay at Mankato State University even today The multicultural movement is simply an extension of neo liberal politics of bringing in the cheapest laborers without care of what cultural values they are bringing into the country.
Perhaps you can understand why I might prefer Thailand with all its faults of which I am well aware of.
Don Foss says
I think these numbers are low. A strand of taqiyya encourages Muslims to hide their true intentions and thoughts if the truth could be troublesome for Islam. I suppose this would be true for most people in general, but only in Islam it it encouraged and part of its doctrine.
More Ham Ed says
100% of muslims read the unholy ko ‘ran.
Less ko ‘ran, more ham.
Angemon says
I doubt the number is that high, MHE. Many muslims worldwide can’t speak arabic and/or are illiterate even in their own language so all they can do is parrot what they’re told and try to kill infidels who read it and don’t like it.
Edward says
I just finished taking a second look at the photo accompany this article and I discovered some discrepancies and an act that should be considered a general insult to others of different beliefs!
The Muslims by their prostration (Sujud) before the Iconic US Capital should be considered a reverence before an Idol which is considered a blasphemy to them. Of course, they would quickly invoke taqiyah privileges, right! The chameleon effect again!
Although they not aiming their bare butts as in a ‘mooning’ incident….I do find the mass number of butts display as an act of arrogance, especially when this taking place in front of an edifice of great importance to the people of America. Where Laws of the Land are being legislated! Frankly, this show has connotations of a willful insult. The Islamic adherents should avoid the Sujud practice in public and be practiced in privacy and on private outdoor locations only.
There should be limitations to the over bearing and PC appeased behavior in America! Native Civic and/or Faith culture of America should be afforded respect to all of its citizens and not to privileged ones only! Personal of a hosting country should be respected like the incoming guests would like to be treated.
daniel sebold says
Yes, that’s right. I am another delusional decorated American war veteran who is a closet Muslim and who hates Christians.
Wellington says
Well, there’s something not right about you. Most likely many things actually.
Angemon says
He certainly has a soft spot in his heart for shiites, Wellington:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/09/robert-spencer-in-frontpage-the-hijrah-into-europe/comment-page-1#comment-1290219
Which strikes me as weird overall – he manifestly hates Christians (all sects, I assume) because of alleged “gay witch hunts”, however shiites in Iran hanging gays from construction cranes doesn’t prevent him from stating that Germany should be taking in shiites or saying that he might become a shiite just to piss off some of his students (because that screams “professionalism” and “respect for the profession of teacher”).
daniel sebold says
How many wars have you chicken hawks fought in the Middle East? How many Muslims have you killed for Christ? Maybe it is time you went and killed the people you hate so much. Amazing how the chicken hawks turn into anti war liberals the minute a war vet walks in the door looking for a job. Amazing how the witch hunts start after the war is over, never before.
Angemon says
You’re trying too hard, Daniel – what chicken-hawks are you talking about, and how does that relate to what you said here?
Now, about those shiites you stated that Germany should be taking in, even though their religion differs little from their sunni persecutors…
daniel sebold says
Edward: do you really think I would hate a good Catholic boy like you? I believe in the King Of The Primates, just like you do. The biggest problem I have with Christianity is that, like Islam, it is ridiculous. It can’t be true. If people want to believe in SOG, fine with me.
I think Merkel is making a huge mistake.
I also think my home town of Minneapolis is having some very big problems and I am worried. I am also worried about Europe, too. I dont know what is going to happen. I hope things work out.
gravenimage says
daniel sebold wrote:
How many Muslims have you killed for Christ?
………………….
*This* is how daniel sebold chooses to characterize our concerns about the bloody Jihad threat–as though everyone here is a some crazed Christian butchering Muslims in the name of he creed.
I believe this is known as “projection”.
daniel sebold says
Wellington: maybe you need to go back to school and learn to read between the lines so that you can appreciate the sarcasm. I have lived in Saudi Arabia for four years, and in Oman for three, have fought wars in the Middle East, can speak the language fairly fluently and I have retards from the States sending me information on what it is like to live here. I mean, I suppose I could send Lawrence Krauss an astronomy article from Science Digest, but I dont think he would learn anything from it.
Edward says
Tell us DS, what really makes you hate Christians? Was it an emotional trauma that made you flip or was it your introduction to Islam?
Your answer will be very important to you!
Edward says
And yes, thank you for your loyal service to your country. What branch did you serve with?
daniel sebold says
I was a US Navy CTI Arabic Linguist, what is known as a 9216. I deployed from NSGA Athens and served on the USS Wisconsin in the 91 Gulf War. I have a Facebook page with many of my Navy friends there. I have thousands of photos from archaeological sites and museums from all over the world on that site. I also have an album of the ships I served on Facebook, but you have to scroll down through hundreds of other albums and photos to get to it.
voegelinian says
The real question to ask sebold is why has he put off taking the Shahada already…!!!??? All the psycho-cultural ingredients are there, like chemicals when mixed produce an inevitable reaction: hatred of his own West (which deep down may stem from self-hatred); hatred of Christianity; a semi-willful blindness to the pernicious qualities of Islamic culture even when he has spent years in its midst; semi-willful blindness to the snake-like mendacity of Muslim people — again, even after spent years among them. Put these all together in an already unstable psyche, and mix under the turbulent conditions of a global revival of Islamic Jihad (whose nerve center hot spots radiate out from the Arabian Peninsula where sebold perversely likes to live), and the necessary chemical reaction will be conversion to Islam, followed by a pledge of allegiance to one of its more explicitly candid wings on the front lines (known by State Department analysts as “terrorists”).
PRCS says
Daniel,
Thank you for your service.
From my screen name you will know my rate and rank. And, of course, killing people was definitely not my specialty. Quite the opposite.
1968–1989
Of course, as you and I were sworn to support and defend the U.S. Constitution during our time in service, I’m sure you realize how unwise your killing for Christ question was.
Edward says
[voegelinian says October 17, 2015 at 4:22 pm]
“The real question to ask sebold is why has he put off taking the Shahada already…!!!???”
voegelinian, DS is dithering before taking the creed for he is uncertain if he will find what he is looking for……for he says: “The biggest problem I have with Christianity is that, like Islam, it is ridiculous. It can’t be true”.
DS is a person that needs contrastable veracity to help his decision.
Simply, what I would suggest is to compare the creation account as recorded in Genesis 1:27 vs what Muslim’s beliefs are about their creation account. Christianity and Islam’s are 180 degrees apart.
In the creation account found in Genesis, God’s 18 compiled divinity attributes are listed here by this website@: https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/creator-god/man-the-image-of-god/
BTW, the great Theologian, St. Aurelius Augustinus asserted that the human mind was the location of humanity, and thus the location of the Image of God gift. Note: God’s gift is endowed to us upon our conception. Five of His attributes are gifted to us plus other faculties. “IMAGE OF GOD” GIFTS: God’s creations are gifted 5 of His attributes: Love, Mercy, Goodness, Graciousness, and learned Wisdom besides our reasoning faculties, our human productivity creations and physiology that maintains our biology systems needs..
———————————–
Here is a treatise on the Islam’s creation account found@:
http://muslimmatters.org/2012/02/03/the-creation-of-man-as-mentioned-in-the-quran/
http://www.iqrasense.com/allah/islamic-viewpoint-on-god-made-man-in-his-own-image.html“
Islam does not agree with this statement. Allah (SWT), God, has attributes which belong to Him alone, such as His being the Creator, the Provider, the One God, etc. These are characteristics which a created being cannot acquire.”
Opinion:
External spiritual coercion is certainly not a factor here, for DS’ discernment will be his sole responsible decision!
Kaveh says
I am strongly disagree with 51% ,and I believe Muslims which come to western world categorized into two groups or categories .Arabs and non-Arabs.usually 51% may be correct Arabs Category But non-Arabs , They try to scape from Islamic dictatorship and fascism for freedom and embrace secular life this 99% which they hate Islam.
gravenimage says
Kaveh wrote:
I am strongly disagree with 51% ,and I believe Muslims which come to western world categorized into two groups or categories .Arabs and non-Arabs.usually 51% may be correct Arabs Category But non-Arabs , They try to scape from Islamic dictatorship and fascism for freedom and embrace secular life this 99% which they hate Islam.
……………………….
What is it about this thread that has brought out the Muslim apologists?
While there is an aspect of Arab supremacism to Islam, the idea that non-Arab Muslims are somehow universally opposed to Islam makes absolutely no sense.
Were that the case, why would we not see mass-apostasy in places like Western China, Thailand, the Philippines, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, and sub-Saharan Africa? Instead, you find the same commitment to Jihad and Shari’ah law that you find with pious Arab Muslims.
And these non-Arab Muslims have brought this commitment to their vicious creed to the United States and the rest of the West, in just the same manner as have their Arab coreligionists.
David Williams says
Your link in the story is broken. Here’s the latest Pew survey of muslims in America: http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/
daniel sebold says
How does living in the Middle East or being an Arabic scholar make me a Muslim apologist? If you are an Arab Muslim studying ancient Greek or English and you are living in Athens, does that make you a Greek Orthodox apologist to the Muslim world? Are you seriously saying that? Go back to school. You people are at each other’s throats over non sequitur ideas. You are destroying your own movement.
You can compare and contrast Jesus and Muhammad until the camels come home. Alike or unalike I reject them both. I see no evidence that these two advance primates have any genetic connection or special muse to the Creator of the Cosmos. We humans were fully developed a hundred thousand years ago, a drop of piss in the bucket in evolutionary terms. Where were these characters then when we needed them most? And where are they now? Oh, yes, that is yet to come, and in your lifetime I bet. You can quote that North African philosopher, Saint Augustine, all you want about God implanting ideas of the Divine into our heads, a very Platonic and therefor anti scientific idea, which, by the way, has held us back in our scientific understanding of nature and the cosmos. It really sounds nice, but is it true? What is the evidence? Maybe our evolution has wired us to believe in the supernatural, or maybe God did it. Who knows?
Don Foss says
Rejection of both is fine. But there is no getting around the fact that nearly 4 billion people on the planet who follow one of these two leaders, and if following one and his teachings actually does (in practice) lead to peace, forgiveness, love and a long list of positives, and whose life was an excellent example, the following of the other leads to hatred, supremacism, violence and jihad, and his life examples bear those out. What you think of it makes no difference.