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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Richard Dawkins: “The Bible itself is as toxic as the Quran”

Oct 17, 2015 1:44 pm By Robert Spencer

Dawkins said: “The Bible itself is as toxic as the Quran but most Christians are not taught to believe it literally. Most Christians are taught to believe it metaphorically or allegorically.”

He thus seems to be assuming that both contain passages mandating warfare against unbelievers, but Christians spiritualize or allegorize those passages, while Muslims do not.

This question is important whether or not one believes in the Bible, for it may help determine how one views the magnitude of the jihad threat, and how resolved one may be to resist the jihad imperative. And so it warrants close examination.

In the Bible, there are passages that certainly appear to be “toxic.” The Book of Numbers recounts that after the Israelites defeated the Midianites, they presented the captives and spoils of war to Moses. But the prophet “was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live?” He reminded them that these women had earlier caused the Israelites to “act treacherously against the LORD.” Consequently, Moses told his men: “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves” (31:14-18).

Later this command was extended to other enemies of the Israelites: “When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them” (Deuteronomy 7:1-2).

God also tells the Israelites: “When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes” (Deuteronomy 20:10-17).

Likewise, besieging Jericho, Joshua announces that the city is “devoted to the LORD for destruction” (Joshua 6:17). When it falls, Joshua and his men “utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword” (6:21). And Joshua warned: “Cursed before the LORD be the man that rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho” (6:26).

Later God tells Joshua: “You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king,” except that this time they shouldn’t kill all the animals: “its spoil and its cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves” (8:2). Joshua complied: “When Israel had finished slaughtering all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they pursued them and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel returned to Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword. And all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand, all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the javelin, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took as their booty, according to the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua” (8:24-27). Joshua similarly kills all the inhabitants of a number of other cities: Makkedah (10:28); Libnah (10:29-30); Lachish (10:31-2); Eglon (10:34-5); Hebron (10:36-7); and Debir (10:38-9); as well as Madon, Shimron, Achshaph, and Hazor (11:10-11).

Nowhere in all this is there a hint of any disapproval on the part of the writer or anyone in the book. Instead, we are told that in carrying out these massacres Joshua was just being obedient to God: “So Joshua defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded” (10:40).

Besides passages apparently celebrating warfare and ethnic cleansing as sanctioned by almighty God, the books of Moses also contain other passages jarring to modern sensibilities. God commands, for example, that Sabbath-breakers be put to death: “And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Say to the people of Israel, You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; every one who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people’” (Exodus 31:12-14). So are idolaters. God tells Moses: “If there is found among you…a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5).

There is more. The Book of Exodus contains some brief guidelines for occasions in which “a man sells his daughter as a slave” (Exodus 21:7). And there is more, here and there, that has raised eyebrows not only in modern times but throughout history.

But is the Bible really enjoining violence, both against nonbelievers and believers who commit sins deemed worthy of capital punishment? This question cannot be answered by an evaluation of the text alone, for that text does not now and has never in history stood apart from the way believers have understood it and acted upon it. From that perspective, Dawkins is correct: when confronted with a passage such as one of those I have quoted above, “most Christians are taught to believe it metaphorically or allegorically.”

Biblical scholars have posited several ways in these passages that appear to depict God transgressing against his own goodness can be understood by people of faith who believe that this material is divinely inspired. Some Biblical scholars have suggested that the Bible depicts a process of moral evolution — a gradual advance out of barbarism to the precepts of the Gospel. Others have adopted a posture of cultural relativism, arguing that what was acceptable for, or even incumbent upon, the Israelites in their particular time and place only applied to that time and place, not to all believers for all time. There are weaknesses in those and other such interpretations, but they reflect the fact that throughout history, rather than celebrating such biblical passages, Jews and Christians have regarded them as a problem to be solved. While interpretations of these passages differ widely among Jews and Christians, from the beginnings of rabbinic Judaism and Christianity one understanding has remained dominant among virtually all believers: these passages are not commands for all generations to follow, and if they have any applicability at all, it is only in a spiritualized, parabolic sense.

However, Dawkins’ moral equivalence founders primarily upon one central fact: none of these passages direct believers to act in similar ways. They’re not presented as giving the believer examples to be imitated, and they have never been understood as exemplary by Jews or Christians at any point in Jewish or Christian history. These passages, for all the exegetical problems they present to believing Jews and Christians, are descriptive, not prescriptive. They nowhere give the impression to believers that God wishes them to act as his instruments of judgment in any situation today.

In short, the consensus view among Jews and Christians for many centuries is that unless you happen to be a Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, etc., these Biblical passages simply do not apply to you. The Scriptures records God’s commands to the Israelites to make war against particular people only. However this may be understood, and however jarring it may be to modern sensibilities, it does not amount to any kind of marching orders for believers. That’s one principal reason why Jews and Christians haven’t formed terror groups around the world that quote these Scriptures to justify killing civilian non-combatants.

Meanwhile, the Qur’an is loaded with material that is “toxic.” A sampling:

2:191-193: “And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution is more grievous than slaying. But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, slay them — such is the recompense of unbelievers, but if they give over, surely Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.”

4:34: “Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that Allah has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for Allah’s guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; Allah is All-high, All-great.”

4:89: “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.”

5:33: “This is the recompense of those who fight against Allah and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.”

5:38: “And the thief, male and female: cut off the hands of both, as a recompense for what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from Allah; Allah is All-mighty, All-wise.”

8:12: “When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, “˜I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers” hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!–

8:39: “Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s entirely; then if they give over, surely Allah sees the things they do.”

8:60: “Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to terrify thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; Allah knows them. And whatsoever you expend in the way of Allah shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.”

9:5: “Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.”

9:29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.”

9:111: “Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of Allah; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon Allah in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.”

9:123: “O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing.”

47:4: “When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if Allah had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will not send their works astray.”

That’s three verses about slaying polytheists, apostates, etc. wherever they are found, one about beating disobedient women, two about beheading, two mandating amputation as a punishment, and more. What’s more, the literal understanding of these passages is mainstream. There is no widespread understanding of these passages and others like them as allegorical or metaphorical or referring to the struggle against sin. Many Islamic spokesmen in the West maintain that the Qur’an’s passages about jihad warfare apply only to Muhammad’s time, but this is belied not only by the status of the Qur’an in Islamic theology as being the perfect book that is valid and applicable for all time, but also by the fact that jihad groups worldwide, aided and abetted by innumerable Muslim clerics, quite obviously believe that the violent passages are very much applicable to today.

Unlike the Biblical passages, the Qur’anic passages are open-ended and addressed to all believers, giving believers marching orders that Muslims throughout the history of Islam have taking as applying to their time and place, as all too many Muslims are doing now. That alone establishes the Qur’an, contrary to Dawkins’ claims, as quite considerably more “toxic” than the Bible.

RICHARDDAWKINS

“Atheist Richard Dawkins Claims ‘Bible as Toxic as Quran,’ but ‘Christians Don’t Believe the Bible Literally,'” by Samuel Smith, Christian Post, October 16, 2015:

British evolutionary biologist and best-selling author Richard Dawkins asserted in a recent interview that the Bible is just as “toxic” as Islam’s holy book, the Quran, but reasoned that the difference between Muslims and Christians is that most Christians are taught to believe the Bible “metaphorically.”

In an interview with Fox News Radio’s Alan Colmes earlier this week, the 74-year-old Dawkins, a zealous atheist who authored the 2006 book The God Delusion, was asked a number of questions on topics such as the 2016 presidential race, America’s “secular” founding and the “toxicity” of religions.

When Colmes asked Dawkins if he believes one religion is “sicker” or “more toxic” than the others, Dawkins stated that it is not unfair to say that in the today’s world, Islam is to blame for the “maximum toxicity in religion.”

Dawkins asserted that “it’s partly that [Muslims] are taught to believe that the Quran is literally true.”

Colmes responded by saying that many Christians are also taught that the Bible is literally true.

Dawkins agreed but further argued that there are not as many Christians who take the Bible as literally as Muslims view the Quran.

“There are but they are not that numerous,” Dawkins stated. “The Bible itself is as toxic as the Quran but most Christians are not taught to believe it literally. Most Christians are taught to believe it metaphorically or allegorically.”…

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Filed Under: Featured, moral equivalence Tagged With: Richard Dawkins


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Comments

  1. Alarmed Pig Farmer says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    Give a guy a science degree and all of a sudden he’s an expert on everything. Does the conclusion advanced by Dawkins meet the scientific method? Maybe he should go into the Global Warmi… er, Climate Change business, that’s where the money is nowadays, and fantastical work is embraced in that quarter.

    • jihad3tracker says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 2:20 pm

      Hello again, APF —- In poking around a few minutes ago on Google, searching for items on another of the W.F.A. — world famous atheists — I found an interview Sam Harris did with Graeme Wood, who, as we well remember, got the Left’s knickers in a royal twist with his remarkable Atlantic Monthly item on ISIS.

      It is one of several posts on this page: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-true-believers. I did not read the whole thing yet, but probably worth the time to do so. Also, visit the hotlink about Harris “strangling” Wood.

      A welcome but rare bit of humor by an all-too-often endlessly & boringly loquacious branch of high-falutin’ Metaphysical Thought.

    • Bob Ingersoll says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 9:48 pm

      Stick to pig farming fella. You don’t know pigpoop about science, apparently, and little about religion or atheism or Dawkins.

  2. jihad3tracker says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm

    Another of Robert’s long comprehensive statements to help us (me, at least) better understanding the important contextual differences between Judaism+Christianity versus Islam.

    If I might make one additional and rather obvious difference: Muslims have a SINGLE HUMAN — NAMED AND EXTENSIVELY BIOGRAPHIED — as a source for the commands of their supreme deity. And, of course, he is regarded as the Ideal Man . . . if Muhammad did something, then any adherent may as well.

    • Alarmed Pig Farmer says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 2:33 pm

      Yes, this essay draws an important distinction between the Bible and the Holy Ko-Ran. However, such distinctions are not made by the Equivalents (as I call them, they have to have a name) becuase they do not fit the narrative that Moslems are no worse or more dangerous than Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoorastrians, Baha’is, Janes, Confucians, Shintos, et al.

      At the root, atheists see all believers as equivalent. The atheist necessarily views the world as the dichotomy, with the atheist on one side through knowledge of what’s not there, and all theists on the other side with faith of what feel is there.

      Notice to any movie stars who might be reading this: I apologize for not including Scientologists in my list. Not.

      • Peter Charles says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 5:29 pm

        Scientology was made up by L. Ron Hubbard , John W. Campbell and aniother SI-FI writer, I seem to recall.
        The Bible has TWO Testaments, thew old was primarily a history of ther area at a time of a change from City-State to Nations. a revolution of such magnitude that it could not help but result in violence. Our Civil war reads even worse, as do other such wars and all pale by comparison to the 20th Century horrors of atheism’s communist revolutions killing about 262,000,000 iin China with Mao Russia ans thevUSSR with Stalin, Germany with Hitler and other more minor mass murdering dioctators.
        An athiest presching moral superiority is mind boggling to say the least.

      • Azacque says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 1:41 am

        Even a dyed in wool atheist, when faced with mortal danger calls out to God for help.
        Will never understand how anyone cannot see the wonders of God’s creation all around us every day.

    • Michael Copeland says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 3:44 pm

      Yes, One Man’s Word is All Islam Has.
      http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/news-libertygb/6829-one-man-s-word-is-all-islam-has

  3. Jay Boo says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    Even the most arrogant sour faced (political Christians) who smugly declared “I believe it because the Bible says so” yet callously never explore beyond the literal as they overlook even the most obvious non-literal meaning realize that the Bible’s “passages
    are descriptive, not prescriptive”.

  4. somehistory says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 2:15 pm

    Well, I love Christ Jesus, and hope that He considers me Christian, but I have never met this dawkins fool and tool of the devil.

    Since I have never met dawkins, and most of the people I know who also endeavor to follow Christ have never met dawkins, one question comes up: How can he assert that “most Christians are not taught”….
    He has no real clue what “most Christians” are taught, or what “most Christians” believe. He would have to do a survey of “most Christians” to find out what “most Christians” believe about the Bible and what they are “taught.”

    And he should come down off his *high horse* and admit that he knows not what the Bible REALLY says because if he has read it, he reads it with a conclusion already in his *mind* and *concludes* incorrectly and irresponsibly, that it is “toxic.”

    He has no fear in saying what he says about Christians as he knows none are going to rip off his head for saying such things.

    • Jay Boo says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 2:39 pm

      Many atheists cannot bring themselves to criticize Islam directly.
      False equivalence is how they console eager appeasement as if to say, ” Don’t be mad at us, we have nothing against Islam; we merely disagree with religions”;.

      • somehistory says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 3:18 pm

        Guess that’s ‘the alligator won’t eat me if I feed him someone else’.

      • kay says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 3:10 am

        Re: “Many atheists cannot bring themselves to criticize Islam directly….”
        —————————
        Not So.
        Got some names?
        You are completely unfamiliar with Douglas Murray, Dr. Sam Harris, Dr. Richard Dawkins, Salman Rushdie, Pat Condell and the late Christopher Hitchens.
        These atheists are FIERCE critics of Islam. And I have studied what they have to say.

        I’m a fierce critic of Islam. Technically I count as an atheist.

        May or most atheists are fairly allergic to Judaism ( like non-religious Jews ) or Christianity.
        It appears that a good many American atheists study religion, i.e .Christianity.
        I think there are lots of atheists who dig into Islamic studies.
        Probably the atheist intellectuals in North America know a lot more about Islam than most Muslims.

        It’s the Anglican Church and Pope Francis who are so devoted to Islam. There are quite a few political leaders in the West who will not directly criticize Islam. Some actively defend Islam.
        The main group of people I see criticizing Islam are the very small but growing number of atheists.

        Atheist vs Muslim
        906,529

        • Jay Boo says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 11:34 am

          kay, You need not take my word for it. If you visit just about any Atheist website you will see the same predicable basic format, that is: anti-Republican and anti Christian and often pro-gay as well in other words like Huff Post and the SPLC. In addition, the Atheist .websites will cover ‘religion’ in general which in effect is just more loads of Christian bashing with an occasional token jab at Islam. Notice that their “activist” billboards shown on the websites are almost exclusively anti-Christian and any billboard that mentions Islam will only generically attack (gods in general) because anti-slam billboards always seem to add a false equivalency accompaniment of Judaism and/ or Christianity. They will mock Jesus without shame yet not dare criticize Islam for stoning, FGM, hanging gays, or even honor killings.

    • Isabellathecrusader says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 5:23 pm

      Dawkins has got the same problem that most other atheists have; he doesn’t want to submit to Jesus Christ. (He was born into an Anglican family and practiced that faith until his mid-teens, probably around the same time he discovered he liked girls and didn’t want to be encumbered by the church’s rule regarding them.) So he has to deny that He exists or he would have to admit that he owes Him everything. Same story, different atheist. This is just Dawkins way of trying to protect himself from his own bad choices and having to admit to whatever nasty things he’s done to other people in his life. Now we’ve all done nasty things to people but some of us recognize that it’s not a good idea to continue because of how that behavior affects our family, friends and associates and that there are consequences, not just in this life, for behaving that way. If there is no God then how can there be any consequences? He clings to that belief No, Dawkins is not afraid of what religion can do to a society; but deep down he is deathly afraid of what God can do to him for rejecting Him so vociferously in public, like some sad deludinoid, especially when so many of us know He exists.

      Hey Dick, every knee will bend, baby.

  5. Richard says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    God has reasons, which you can find in the scriptures.

    The reason that Israel was ordered to conquer Canaan can be found in two passages:

    First Leviticus 20 (partly). Keep in mind the Law represents Gods moral standard:

    Lev. 20:11    “ ‘If a man sleeps with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Lev. 20:12    “ ‘If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Lev. 20:13    “ ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Lev. 20:14    “ ‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
    Lev. 20:15    “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
    Lev. 20:16    “ ‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Lev. 20:17    “ ‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
    Lev. 20:18    “ ‘If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
    Lev. 20:19    “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
    Lev. 20:20    “ ‘If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
    Lev. 20:21    “ ‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

    But then it comes:

    Lev. 20:22    “ ‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live —>may not vomit you out. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.<—

    Second in Genesis 15:16 where it is being prophesied:

    16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

    • wildjew says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 7:38 pm

      Right. By contrast, according to the Qur’an / Allah, no matter how righteous, how moral and decent you might be, if you are an infidel you could be or should be put to death if you do not covert to or submit to the authority of Islam.

  6. Richard says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    Something went wrong with copy paste of Leviticus, again the last two verses:

    Lev. 20:22    “ ‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.

    • Jay Boo says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 3:05 pm

      ezekiel 38

    • oldblindjohn says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 2:33 pm

      Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV /l

      “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

  7. gravenimage says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 3:00 pm

    Richard Dawkins: “The Bible itself is as toxic as the Quran”
    ……………………

    Well, this is poppycock–and a shame, because Richard Dawkins has been relatively clear-eyed about the terrible threat of Islam.

    But even he notes that Christians are not apt to act on this (supposed) “toxicity”.

    • Jay Boo says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 3:10 pm

      Let’s not forget about the Amish?
      Hollywood tells us to beware of the Amish “mafia” and backs up Richard Dawkins’ false equivalence.

      • Joseph says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 4:17 pm

        So true Jay Boo, I heard that the Amish secretly train their horses to shit exactly where the automobile tires go hoping that the car will skid out and kill the occupants.

        Trust me, hitting a smashed pumpkin in the road, on a motorcycle is worse. It makes the rider nearly shit in his pants.
        Go ahead, ask me how I know. And I said **nearly**
        OH MAN..the secret is out, now the Amish will do this too.

        • Jay Boo says

          Oct 17, 2015 at 9:02 pm

          The Amish sell apples and homemade bread too.
          Remember the old saying “An apple a day keeps the doctor away”
          — This must be a secret Amish plan to keep us in good health just long enough to unravel Obama’s health plan while we age prematurely from eating non-gluten free bread.

  8. deja vu says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 3:01 pm

    somehistory:

    ‘And he should come down off his *high horse* and admit that he knows not what the Bible REALLY says because if he has read it, he reads it with a conclusion already in his *mind* and *concludes* incorrectly and irresponsibly, that it is “toxic.”’

    Very true. Paul describes the thinking of such a man in 1 Cor 2:14: ‘But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he *cannot* know them because they are spiritually discerned.’

    What a sad spectacle is the man who has hardened his heart and mind against God. Why should God reveal Himself to one such as he? For all his self-important malignant blatherings I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes when he meets his Maker and has to give account.

    • somehistory says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 3:21 pm

      I’m with you.
      “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” (Psalm 14:1)

  9. Red Bee says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Richard Dawkins compares the Bible and the Koran considering them both as religious texts which can inspire people to certain behaviors. The Koran differs however in two important aspects from other religious text like the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc. The Koran repeats a couple of themes as a drumbeat and it is meant to be recited rather than read. Why this is important you can read on my site here: http://members.ziggo.nl/iiat/Koran/.

    In short: I think the Koran is a conditioning tool. People who do what Islam prescribes are being emotionally conditioned as described by Pavlov. I argue this will lead to real changes in the central nervous system while the other texts do not have this effect; they stay on the cognitive level. Therefore on a biological level the Koran can be said to be poisonous, or wholesome, of course, it depends on one’s point of view.

  10. Allan Mandrowski says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 3:03 pm

    As an atheist, I disagree with Dawkins on this. Islam is far more toxic than Christianity. In fact, I’d argue that true Chrsitianity is alright, it’s just the evangelical nutjobs that are toxic.

    Islam far surpasses Christianity in toxicity.

  11. Fritz says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 3:06 pm

    What an Idiot.The Bible is telling storys of the past.Also for Christs the 10 commandmnets and Jesus are the way of life.For Muslims its Koran and Mohammeds life(full of crimes).

  12. Angemon says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 4:12 pm

    The lengths Dawkins goes through to try to please Greeks and Trojans and escape charges of bigotry and racism… Once bitten, twice shy – remember what happened a couple of years ago?

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/08/all-the-worlds-muslims-have

  13. Peter Hyatt says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    The Bible also includes historical accounts. Simply reporting what was done is not a teaching, nor an endorsement.

    The Koran teaches, or instructs, what is to be done, including the subjugation of all who disagree.

    Christianity and Judaism are “religions of persuasion” that use good works, kindness and logic to persuade one to believe.

    Islam is a religion or political -religious ideology of coercion. It is strictly to force its envious objective upon the hearer.

    Thus, the only muslim “food banks” found in 1400 years were found to be fronts to launder money for terror, which the koran also teaches.

    The koran is illogical, contradictory and as intelligent as Dawson.

    Peter Hyatt

    PS: This is my new blog and not the Statement Analysis (R) blog, but one dedicated to discussion of political issues such as Islam’s use of deception to infiltrate society at large.

    http://analysistomorrow.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-peripheral-suffering-of-madness.html

  14. Dexter Wilson says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    The fool has said in his heart there is no God. The Bible, with the Hebrew Old Testament Text and the original Greek New Testament does things that no other religious text of any other World Relationship between God and Mankind does; demonstrating that only the Creator could have, through 44 inspired writers, written this book. The scribes who copied the original Hebrew Old Testament text copied carefully every letter, jot and tittle. As they read the copied text, if a single letter, jot, or tittle mistake was made, they would destroy all that had been written and start over.

    Ivan Panin, a Harvard Hebrew, Greek, and Mathematical Scholar researched the numerical values of the Hebrew and Greek letters. He sent 43,000 pages of numerical research to the Nobel Research Committee in 1900, and they could not refute the fact that God through 44 inspired writers wrote the Bible.

    Del Washburn has written two books expanding on the numerical values, “Theomatics” and “Theomatics II”. (See http://www.biblecode.com ).

    The most amazing proof that the Creator of the Universe wrote the Bible through the inspired men of God is the Equidistant Letter Sequences. The NSA tried to duplicate such coding and failed. Harold Gans, the lead code breaker for the NSA, before he died, satisfied himself that God wrote the Bible, by using a mathematical formula to determine the probabilities involved in creating codes throughout the surface text of the Old Testament (www.biblecodedigest.com ). Through the code, the multitude of information reads like yesterdays news–you must know the names, events, persons involved, locations, and/or the dates. For this reason it can not be used prophetically.

    The original text of the Old and New Testament with the letter numeric values and the multitude of Equidistant Letter Sequences should be enough to prove to anyone that the God of the Bible, is our Creator. There are thousands of words, names, sentences and locations encoded in the Old Testament. If you are thinking that some super intelligence wrote this book other than God, God reminds you from Numbers 23’19”, “God is not a man that He should lie….” No human or computer can duplicate anything resembling the quantity of ELS coding in surface text like the Bible does. There are even codes between books, God knowing which books would be canonized. Where there have been codes in other translated books, they get left behind when you get to 7 letter words and full sentences.

    In Ezekiel 36′ 25″-27″ it describes God’s way of salvation–“I will remove your stoney heart and give you a heart of flesh (being born again and receiving Jesus as your Savior), I will sprinkle you with water and make you clean (water baptism), and put my Spirit in you to cause you to walk in my laws and statutes (receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit).

    The Bible is the Manufacturer’s Handbook for Planet Earth!

    Post Scripts

    Sources: “His Name is Jesus”, “The Genesis Factor”, “The Signature of God”, “The Writings of God”, “The Mysterious Bible Codes” (book and DVD’s), “Cracking the Bible Code”, “Bible Code Bombshell”, “The Torah Codes and Israel Today”, Computorah/The Bible Code I, II, &III, bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm, “Yeshua”, “Jesus Is My Name” , http://www.biblecodedigest.com, http://www.biblecode.com and there are so many more. Note: even the writer of “September 11 is in the Bible Code” , Dr. Larry Mitcham, his name is coded in the Bible. *:) happySo are Carl Baugh and a few others who have researched the codes.

    Ivan Panin corrected an Exhaustive Bible Concordance using what he called the Bible Numerics. He said if there were 2 words found in the Greek New Testament in a sentence and you wanted to know which word to use, the word that harmonized with the sentence numerically was the correct word. He provided a Greek Numeric New Testament. Example of Bible Numerics: In the first sentence in the Old Testament, Genesis 1’1″, every verb is divisible by 7, every noun, and more; there are over 34 features of the number 7 in just this one sentence and these type features are consistent throughout the Bible.

    Just a very few of the codes (and there are more being found every day–www.biblecodedigest.com) found: Hitler, Holocaust, Eichmann, Fuhrer, Meinkampf, Berlin, Germany, Belson, King of the Nazis, Crematoria for my Sons, (for statistical purposes only-there are more) 66 names of Rabbis-the cities in which they lived-dates of death (that came from the Book “The Great Men of Israel), Anwar Sadat-1981-parade-shot-gunfire-Chaled (his assassin), Yitzchak Rabin-Israel-will be murdered-date born-date of death-location of the assassination-assassin’s name-Oslo Peace Process, both Wars in the Gulf, George Bush, Saddam Hussein-America Schwarzkopf-the missiles will terrify-Scud B-they shut the door-3rd of Shevat, empty the gas, Murrah Building-Tim-McVeigh-slaughter-desolate, (in Genesis 38′) all the ancestors of King David, (in Genesis)25 trees are named, (between Isaiah 52′ and 55′) Behold the Blood of Jesus-Let Him Be Crucified-Mary-Joseph-Jesus is my Name-all the disciples names,Nazarene, Messiah, Shiloh, Passover, Galilee, Herod, Annas, Caiaphas Caesar, The evil Roman City, (in Zechariah 9’13”)Jesus, (in Zachariah 11’13”)Jesus, (in Daniel 9’26”) The Peace Offering, (in Micah 5’1-2″ Mary, Joseph, and Jesus(Yeshua),(in Matthew 24’7 through 48″) Jesus, Nazareth, Mercy, Lamb, (in Mark 8’9″ through Mark 9’2″) Jesus, Blood, Son, Innocent, Lamb, (in John 5’5″-13″) Jesus, Nazareth, Lamb, the name of the person most responsible for all the satellites circling the Earth and their names—–and on and on and on and on. I don’t think all of the codes will be found.

  15. voegelinian says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    One small step for One of the Four Horsemen (Hitchens, Harris, Dennet, Dawkins), a giant Leap Backwards for Kuffarkind.

    More precisely, my overneat formulation obscures the fact that these “New Atheists” who have boldly gone where no atheist has gone before — viz., toward the unknown reaches of the Outer Space of Criticism of Islam — have always brought along for the space voyage the provisions of various memes & fallacies from their world of Planet PC MC, including Tu Quoque (or, rather, Ego Quoque) and Equivalencism (i.e., “Christianity is just as bad as Islam” or any number of its infuriating variants). While the Four Horsemen are not lockstep carbon copies of each other, necessarily, nevertheless they all share this inability to cut the umbilical cord leading their oxygen supply back to their PC MC Mothership — which is probably why Sam Harris has been so gullibly naive as to take the hand of the pseudo-“Reformer” Maajid Nawaz — the First Muslim in Space — and go space-walking off into the supernova sunset of a new dawn (or rather black hole) of the “Future of Tolerance” (the title of Harris’s new book (or rather Bromance Novel) he has co-authored with his Nawaz).

    Further Reading:

    Does not compute: The Sam Harris/Maajid Nawaz “Conversation”
    http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2015/09/does-not-compute-sam-harrismaajid-nawaz.html

    How to Pass as a “Moderate Muslim” in the Counter-Jihad
    http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2015/10/how-to-pass-as-moderate-muslim-in.html

  16. Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 5:55 pm

    Thanks for this annotated glimpse into the Bible, especially the passage
    “… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes” (Deuteronomy 20:10-17).

    “Anything that breathes”? Really? That includes all animal and plant life, including pond scum. See
    http://www.answers.com/Q/Do_plants_breathe
    Jehovah could accomplish all this with a mere thought, but entrusts the job to undependable Israelites.

  17. Prebangian says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 6:03 pm

    If one adheres to the New Testament, there is no wondering about the effect of violent passages because there are no violent passages and the jist of the entire testament is “Love one another.”

  18. Wellington says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    First of all, there is a huge difference between the Old Testament and the New. Lumping both together as though they really don’t differ at all should be a non-starter. Violence of any kind by Christian believers in order to promote what Jesus taught is virtually absent in the New Testament. Indeed, Christians through the centuries have been at pains to allow for justified war and the fact that pacifist groups like the Quakers and Amish exist is evidence that justifiable war to this day has not convinced all Christians. And, of course, whenever Christians have used violence for the specific purpose of spreading their faith, they were ALWAYS in violation of Christian tenets, contra Islam here big time.

    Second, it should be clear to all by now that the Bible is often only descriptive while the Koran is always prescriptive. Dawkins half gets this by talking about allegory and metaphor invoked by Christians (and presumably Jews too), but then in the same breath he engages in truly bogus moral equivalency reasoning by asserting that the Bible and the Koran are equally toxic. In effect here, he contradicts himself.

    Third, and this is a very specific point but a monumental one nonetheless and a matter often missed. It is this: Any justification by the Jewish God in the Old Testament for the taking of land was for an area approximately the size of Maryland or about a fifth or a quarter the size of England (about 11,000 square miles). By contrast, the commands in the Koran for the taking of land are for all of the real estate on earth. HUGE DIFFERENCE! The difference here in scale SHOULD be noted by anyone, by everyone, and yet I find this distinction almost never mentioned. Even if one is completely against the violence condoned in the Old Testament respecting land acquisition, only a fool or a liar could maintain that Judaism and Islam should be equally blamed in this regard.

  19. samdav7 says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    Hawkins is very ignorant
    There’s nothing called bible, the idea of the holy bible is a man invented, the truth is that it’s made of two completely separate books then a group of untrustworthy people put them together with super glue in an evil conspiracy and Force it on Christians only, for the Jews don’t believe in what’s called the holy bible which is made of the old testament (torah) which is purely the book of Jews.. and the new testament the book of Christians only, these two books should always be separate and considered separately
    Therefore mr ignorant Hawkins you cannot criminalise Christians for something written in the book of Jews and by the same token you cannot criminalise Jews for something written in the book of Christians
    Both Jews and Christians might believe in the same god but in different ways .. but Muslims believe in evil Satan who they call “Allah” who strictly orders them to kill every single human being on this earth if they don’t submit to evil, furthermore Muslims believe they’ve been ordered by their evil god to kill their own Muslims if they believe in a different school of the Muslim religion (if it can be called a religion)

    • Wellington says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 7:20 pm

      Sorry to say, samdav7, but your “approach” to this “issue” is not a winning strategy. Think more knowledge—and sophistication—-and better English grammar next time. Oh yeah, at least this.

      • samdav7 says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 7:36 pm

        Wellington
        That’s your personal opinion and I respect that
        First, my comments come from four decades of a extensive studies in a number of religions, something I’m sure you haven’t achieved yet
        Secondly, sorry I never knew that only people with fluent English are allowed to open their mouth and say something
        My apologies Mr big brain

        • Wellington says

          Oct 17, 2015 at 9:20 pm

          Well, at least, samdav7, don’t be mendacious by averring that you respect my personal opinion. No you don’t.

          As for your achieving a greater sophistication in the area of comparative religious study than I have, well, how could I deny this obvious truth of yours unless I wanted to remain invincibly ignorant, which perhaps I might. Actually, I have to tell you, plain like, that given a choice between my ignorance and your sapience, I’m still going with the former. Sure hope this doesn’t upset you too much.

          As for your English, I am ready to allow great latitude here for commenters whose first language is not English, except for those who are insufferably ignorant and tedious and overall wrong in making their argument in bad English. You come to mind here.

        • deja vu says

          Oct 17, 2015 at 10:51 pm

          Samdav7: ‘First, my comments come from four decades of a extensive studies in a number of religions’

          With respect, your ‘extensive studies’ in comparative religion seem to have confused you rather than enlightened you. You state that you studied ‘a number of religions’. What would Hinduism with its millions of gods have to do with the monotheistic faiths? Or Buddhism which is a philosophy, not a religion? Or Shinto which is worship of ancestors?

          You say, ‘There’s nothing called bible, the idea of the holy bible is a man invented’

          That the Old and New Testaments are inextricably entwined will, therefore, be news to you. The coming of the Messiah with exact details of His messianic line, conception, birth, ministry, purpose, crucifixion, resurrection and second coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament hundreds of years before His incarnation. Furthermore, you must have ignored the footnotes in your extensive study of the New Testament which show that Jesus referred to the Old Testament continually. As the saying goes, ‘The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed’.

          You claim: ‘the truth is that it’s made of two completely separate books then a group of untrustworthy people put them together with super glue in an evil conspiracy and Force it on Christians only..’

          If you believe this to be the ‘truth’ you are misguided. I expect you are obliquely referring to the Canon of reliable texts which make up the New Testament. No super glue was required, even if it had been invented. The NT books were chosen for their authenticity because the same ‘voice’ spoke through the writings. It is important that the voice of God is consistent throughout because Scripture is God-breathed. He used many different men throughout many generations who wrote down His teachings under His inspiration. Secondly, as already mentioned, Jesus referred to many OT texts in the Gospels.This was an important criterion because the non-canonical writings did not and were, therefore, excluded.

          Finally, here’s a suggestion: look up the OT cross-references in the NT and then come back and tell us whether you still believe that there’s ‘nothing called the bible’ and ‘the idea of the holy bible is man invented’.

    • eduardo odraude says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 8:43 pm

      Samdav —
      Christ was a Jew. So were all the earliest disciples. They thought of themselves as Jews. They did not think they were starting a new religion. They thought they were fulfilling the existing one. It is still quite possible to be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, which is what the first Christians were. Christianity does not replace Judaism, though some Christians have arrogantly and unbiblically claimed that. If the Bible is somehow in essence true, then Christ was the special Son of God AND God has an eternal covenant with the Jews The covenant, with the Jews, in other words, was not abrogated by the coming of God’s Son. Christians, if I am not mistaken, are biblically obligated to humbly love especially the Jewish people and defend them from aggressors..

      • Jay Boo says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 9:19 pm

        The book of Isaiah

      • deja vu says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 9:32 pm

        eduardo odraude to Samdav: ‘The covenant, with the Jews, in other words, was not abrogated by the coming of God’s Son.’

        As you rightly say, the Covenant with the Jews was *fulfilled* by Jesus, as He Himself claimed, not abrogated. The Law was not able to save mankind from their sins, hence the need for constant sacrifices. Jesus came as the Great High Priest to sacrifice Himself for the sins of mankind once and for all.

        A Christian who does not share God’s love for the Jewish people should go back and study Scripture. Paul compares Israel to the natural branches of a cultivated olive tree and the Gentile believers to the branches of a wild olive tree. The natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in. The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation.
        (Romans 11:11-24)

  20. Timothy N. Tremblay says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    This Dawkins fella knows better than God in his own mind anyway. When God decrees something who has the right to contest it? Dawkins is won of those miscreants who feels he has the right to Judge God when in fact neither he nor anyone else has the ability to question God’s will.

    Satan (Lucifer or whatever it’s real name is) was booted out of the Paradise of Heaven for a similar reason, a reason beyond merely questioning or contesting but actually exalting himself over the One who created him. Dawkins is merely a disgruntled Putz who is envious of God’s Supremacy.

    Dick Dawkins will be Judged adversely just as Satan and all it’s followers, blasphemers, atheists and carnal flesh worshippers. Unless they come to the Cross of Christ fully and completely to be “Grafted In” to the Body of Christ. I have seen Christ and Know He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

  21. GuntherL says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 7:21 pm

    To be fair, RD has said that he considers Islam to be one of the big evils in the world, which he never said about Christianity. The point he’s trying to make, is that the Bible also contains many violent bits, that if they would do a lot of harm if interpreted literally.
    I can go along with that kind of reasoning.

    • Wellington says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 7:54 pm

      I can’t go along “with that kind of reasoning” and I’m an agnostic.

      Dawkins is a fool. This silly man has to go into high theory in order to sustain his not just stupid but destructive “reasoning” (e.g., over 27,000 documented Islamic terrorist attacks worldwide have occurred just since 9/11 versus virtually zero Christian or Jewish terrorist attacks during the same time period).

      It is PRECISELY this kind of foolhardiness by people like Dawkins which allows for continued cover for the one major religion, Islam, which is pure spiritual totalitarianism and a menace to free peoples everywhere.

      As long as anyone (like Dawkins) insists on any moral equivalence between Islam and religions like Christianity and Judaism, the net effect is to give cover to the only world religion which is also a totalitarian ideology.

      In short, Dawkins is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Damn, I wish more non-religious people would understand this.

      • deja vu says

        Oct 17, 2015 at 9:15 pm

        ‘In short, Dawkins is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Damn, I wish more non-religious people would understand this.’

        Very insightful, Wellington. As a firm believer in Jesus I would go further and suggest that militant atheists like Dawkins have helped to bring about a spiritual vacuum in Western society which Islam is only too ready to fill. The notion that God and the metaphysical do not exist – simply because prominent atheists say so – leaves the all-important ‘why’ questions of life unanswered. If we are just flesh and blood and death is the end, what was the point of Dawkins’ life however brilliant he may consider himself to be? And why does he think he has the authority to ‘shove atheism down people’s throats’ – to use a common (but erroneous) complaint against bringing the good news of the Gospel as Jesus Christ asked believers to do? People are free to take it or leave it – but the Gospel According to Dawkins is another matter entirely.

        Dawkins and his fellow militants are proud to be ‘neo-atheists’ who not only refuse to believe in God (which is fine) but feel it imperative to demean and ridicule anybody who does. Little do they know that Jesus warned His followers that this is exactly what would happen and, as it gathered momentum, would be one of the signs of His soon return. I take the sneers of Dawkins as a compliment (as do most Christians) because in God’s eyes we must be doing something right.

        Dawkins et al will never get their secular Utopia – they are simply enabling the progress of Islam.

        • Wellington says

          Oct 17, 2015 at 9:30 pm

          Dawkins and those like him, deja vu, will almost certainly remain forever ignorant of what two very wise 18th-century skeptics had to say about this “matter.” Voltaire opined that if God doesn’t exist we’ll have to invent Him and Benjamin Franklin asserted that if man is bad with religion, imagine what he’d be without it.

          Of course, Islam would be the exception to these sage observations but the fact that Dawkins clearly does not see this distinction is dispositive, easily so, that Dawkins is no Voltaire or Franklin.

        • GuntherL says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 11:10 am

          Irrational beliefs without evidence deserve to be mocked. I fully understand his anger when seeing how the believers erode scientific education. Dawkins definitely has the authority to ridiculize this kind uncritical ‘thinking’, but he doesn’t impose anything on anyone. Compare that to the religious hordes (especially the goat fucking category)

        • deja vu says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 am

          GuntherL: Irrational beliefs without evidence deserve to be mocked

          Quite agree. And it’s irrational to believe that the astonishing complexity of living creatures can arise ex nihilo. Macro evolution has never been proved scientifically, neither has the Cambrian explosion or the question of origins.

          You should know that a large number of eminent scientists regard Dawkins as nothing more than an acute embarrassment with a closed mind and an oversized ego. His suggestion that the world could have been seeded by aliens is risible.

          On a more pedantic note, there is no such word as ‘ridiculize’ – the correct word is ridicule.

      • GuntherL says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 10:56 am

        Which part of “Islam is one of the big evils in the world” did you not understand?

    • KD says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 7:55 pm

      there’s no need to be fair. Dawkins thinks that Christianity and every other religion is evil. He believes that teaching children religion is a form of child abuse. For those of you who do not care much for Dawkins, the book titled Darwinian Fairytales, written by an atheist philosopher, is good for several laughs at Dawkins’s expense.

  22. wildjew says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm

    FDR, Churchill and Truman killed men, women and children (animals) in cities they bombed into ruin. What would Mr. Dawkins say about these “monsters?”

    • voegelinian says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 6:20 pm

      Excellent point. I’m not versed enough in the Old Testament battles to say for certain, but aside from the facts that the martial violence depicted is, unlike that of the Koran & Sunna 1) descriptive not prescriptive and 2) constricted in time and space (as the commenter Wellington pointed out above), it is also arguable that in those depictions, the enemies being fought by God’s people are enemies (e.g., the Amalekites) arguably as evil, analogously, as were Hitler or Stalin (not that we ever fought Stalin as we should have; but that’s another story) — or as is ISIS. Knowing the unspeakable horrors which ISIS has been wreaking and knowing the psychotically supremacist ambitions which drive those horrors, would Dawkins balk at Old Testament language condemning ISIS…? The Koran & Sunna, on the contrary, frame their martial violence as a war against thought crimes — the crimes of Fitna, Fasad, and Shirk — and against the “wrong” behavior formed by those thought crimes. While the Bible — both Testaments — contain plenty of rhetoric condemning thought crimes and behavior stemming from thought crimes, it is invariably framed in terms of damnation in the next life, or in the case of Leviticus laws, in corporal punishments within the tribal limits of the Israelites (corporal punishments which Jews have long abandoned to dusty history, whereas Muslims cultivate and inflict them to this day around the world).

  23. Joydesigns says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    Violence in the New Testament:
    1. Herod ordered the slaughter of probably hundreds of baby boys under 2 years old when he decided that his throne was threatened.
    2. Another Herod had John, (the Baptizer) Jesus’ cousin, beheaded in order to save face at a banquet.
    3. The Roman governor, Pilate, had a group of Jews slaughtered while in their temple.
    4. Stephen was stoned to death because of a sermon he preached.
    5. Jesus was arrested, beaten, tortured and crucified because His words caused some people to feel their position of authority was being threatened.
    6. Peter and John were arrested, beaten, arrested and imprisoned for a sermon they preached.
    7. Paul was beaten, left for dead, many times because of the words he spoke.
    8. There was the time that Peter attempted to defend Jesus and cut off someone’s ear.
    9. And there was the one about Jesus throwing some furniture around in the temple and using a rope to drive animals and people out (“My Father’s house is a house of prayer, not a den of thieves.”)
    I may have missed some.
    Oh, yes, the Book of Revelation has some violence in it, but that is in the future, hasn’t happened yet.

    • dumbledoresarmy says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 6:46 am

      None of this violence is, you will I hope notice, represented by the *writers* of the NT as a model to be followed by Christians when dealing with other people.

      Herod was not seen by *Jews* *or* by Romans as a good man. His killing of the boys in and around Bethlehem is consistent with non-biblical historic accounts of his character. It is not represented as a paradigm for *Christians*. His – JEWISH – victims are known as the Holy Innocents, and are honoured by a special feast day in the Christian calendar.

      The killing of the Jewish preacher John the Baptist by another Herod is also quite plainly represented as something *evil*; something to be deplored and mourned rather than imitated. John the Baptist – the victim – is honoured by the Feast of Saint John Baptist. We don’t admire and honour the murderer; we honour the murdered man.

      Pilate was the Roman governor; cruel, weak and capricious. He is not represented in the New Testament as a model of conduct.

      The stoning to death of Stephen, by some Jews in Jerusalem, is represented as a wrongful deed, not as something to be emulated or admired. You will observe, too, that in the account of the stoning e Saint Luke tells us that Stephen – (who was himself of Jewish ethnicity and religious upbringing) asked God to forgive those who had killed him. One of those complicit in the killing was Saul, who later changed his mind, recognised Yeshua as Messiah, and became a great evangelist.

      The Passion of Christ is understood in orthodox theology as his self-offering of himself in order to take away the sin of the world. As He dies he asks God to forgive those who killed him. “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. A further theological perspective is that those who killed him – both Jews and pagan Romans – represented *all* of sinful humanity INCLUDING US, you and I. *We* killed Him just as much as they did. Like the offering of Isaac, the self-offering of Yeshua – who is a descendant of Judah, therefore of Israel/ Yaakov, therefore of *Isaac* – does not validate human sacrifices and crucifixions but, rather, *undoes* them.

      In items 6 and 7 the apostles are not perpetrators of violence but victims of violence. The passages do not function as incitement to violence on the part of Christians.

      The full story in item 8 involves Jesus *healing* the man whose ear had been cut off, and telling Peter to put away the sword.

      I don’t see how, framed as it is, it could be used to incite violence. Rather the opposite.

      Item 9 – Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the Court of the Gentiles – does not appear to have caused any deaths nor serious injury to anybody. And it is the only such incident in his entire *life*.
      It is not held up as a model for imitation; it is a one-off, a unique historic action with a unique meaning.

      • Wellington says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 1:22 pm

        I agree with your reply to “joydesigns,” dda, with one possible exception, Pontius Pilate. Oh, he may have been as you described him, but I think it exceedingly interesting that Pilate through the ages has been portrayed as anywhere from a complete villain to literally a saint. We know so little about him, not even his first name (praenomen). In the Ethiopian and Coptic Orthodox Churches he is a saint and Tertullian spoke about Pilate being a Christian in his heart—–“iam pro sua consciencia christianus.”

        Well, for what it’s worth, just thought you’d like to know this. Hope you are doing well.

  24. mortimer says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    Dawkins stated. “The Bible itself is as toxic as the Quran” … Robert Spencer has ably refuted Dawkins’ claim.

    The key refutation is that the Koran’s violent commands apply generally against all non-Muslims until Judgment Day, whereas the Biblical violence was commanded for one and only one situation.

    The difference in the potential violence of the Koran is this universality of application. Because the Koran’s violence is completely open-ended, it is horrendously dangerous in a nuclear age. Allah obviously did not foresee nuclear bombs (he only knew spears, arrows and catapults). However, the fact that Allah did not know how to stop Muslims from destroying the earth with nuclear bombs, it is proof that Islam is false.

    • deja vu says

      Oct 17, 2015 at 11:17 pm

      mortimer: ‘However, the fact that Allah did not know how to stop Muslims from destroying the earth with nuclear bombs, it is proof that Islam is false.’

      Absolutely true, but Satan knows all about destruction and is described as ‘the destroyer’ in Scripture.

      “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11

      We must not underestimate our deadliest foe who is using all manner of tactics, whether overt or covert, to undermine belief in Christ as the Son of God. But God is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning.

  25. vlparker says

    Oct 17, 2015 at 11:43 pm

    Both books, the Koran and the Bible, are fairy tales. Who cares? Islam is the religion destroying the world and that is all that matters.

  26. Edward says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 12:11 am

    The way it is now:

    After Genesis 1 every OT book beyond was a prelude to the NT……..when Jesus Christ was sent by His Heavenly Father to redeem the sinners of the world.

    Sadly, the Jewish world did not recognize the prophesied Messiah, the Redeemer (Jesus Christ) twice, if they had done so, their antagonist from around the world and the ME would not exist to cause their present dilemma!

    For the adherents of the God of the Ten Commandments, who are believers of their God to be: ‘God that is long-suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.’ Re: 2 Peter 3:9

  27. Charles R.L. Power says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 12:39 am

    Christian and Jewish believers mostly deal with the genocidal texts by not reading them, and not reading the Bible generally. (Christians can’t even be bothered to read the nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke, or they would notice that they are completely inconsistent.) They swallow only the parts that are spoon-fed to them in their weekly services.

    I’m not sure whence we get our moral sensibilities, but it’s certainly not any ancient text. Most of us can figure out that killing helpless human beings is wrong, no matter what the Bible may say. Of course certain people forgot this in, for example, the early 1940s, but note that 99.9% of these people were Christians who supposedly knew the Bible. And if they did know it they could certainly extrapolate from the Hebrews committing genocide (including on each other, per the edifying tale of sex slavery and corpse dismemberment in the last three chapters of Judges) to being justified in exterminating Jews.

    We are lucky that Jews and Christians are extremely selective in which passages of their Holy Book they follow. It is interesting that among the most popular passages for Christians is the story of the woman caught in adultery, a forgery which was inserted into one of the gospels decades after that gospel had been written.

    • Jay Boo says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 1:44 am

      Typical
      Charles R.L. Power offers a gob of scattershot opinion followed by totally unsubstantiated points but doesn’t even bother to mention Islam.

      “inserted into one of the gospels decades after that gospel had been written”
      Which one?
      He doesn’t bother to say or mention how he knows this to be true so I guess we will have to take his word for because after all, he has two middle initials which is very impressive.

      Adultery in 4 wife Islam
      Muslims will stone people to death on the accusation of adultery as they have since adulterous Muhammad changed his own rules to have more than four wives because he claimed Allah said so.

      • Charles R.L. Power says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 2:30 am

        “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” Leviticus 20:`10. Christians claim (contrary to the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 5:18) that this has been superseded (abrogated?) by the New Covenant. Jews have devised incredibly complex rationales demanding impossible circumstances in order for the execution order to be carried out. Muslims, who genuinely believe that the source of correct conduct is divine revelation, sneer at the hypocrisy involved. I say, sneer at the idea that correct conduct is to follow divine revelation. As Huck Finn said, faced by a similar dilemma, “All right then, I’ll go to hell.”

        Following the precepts of the Ersatz Siblinghood of the Double-Initialed, I must refuse to save you the trouble of looking up the story of Jesus rescuing the adulteress. Thank you for confirming my opinion about Christians and the Bible. (Geez, is it really too much trouble to put a few words into Google?)

        • Jay Boo says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 11:49 am

          Charles R.L. Power said,
          “Muslims, who genuinely believe that the source of correct conduct is divine revelation, sneer at the hypocrisy involved.”

          I find it strange that you would insist on sitting on your high horse while making such an evasive defense of Muslims stoning someone for adultery. Do you also support honor killing of daughters who do not wear the hijab?

    • deja vu says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 3:45 am

      Charles R.L. Power

      It’s hard to take you seriously – your post amounts to a list of increasingly absurd sweeping statements.

      1. Christian and Jewish believers mostly deal with the genocidal texts by not reading them.

      How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you asked ‘most’ of them personally? The reality is that genuine believers are encouraged to not only read, but study, the texts in great detail, including the meaning in the original languages..

      2. Christians can’t even be bothered to read the nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke, or they would notice that they are completely inconsistent.

      Really? Again, how do you come to this patronising conclusion? Inconsistent accounts are readily explained.

      3. They swallow only the parts that are spoon-fed to them in their weekly services.

      You know this for a fact, do you? Some might, a minority of ministers and churches are apostate, some have false teachers, but thankfully they are not the majority. As I’ve already pointed out, In most sound churches Christians are encouraged to do in-depth Biblical studies for themselves.

      4. Most of us can figure out that killing helpless human beings is wrong, no matter what the Bible may say.

      Again, the word ‘most’. Do you speak with any proof to back your claims or are you quite happy to make assumptions based on your own prejudices? Ask yourself, why do human beings have a conscience at all?

      Killing babies in their tens of thousands is deemed acceptable in the 21st century, and has reached epidemic proportions. How different is that from sacrificing them to pagan gods in Old Testament times? It was the God of the Bible who condemned this horrible practice 5000 years ago, yet it still continues. Mankind left to himself is selfish and sinful. There’s nothing to be smug about here.

      5. Of course certain people forgot this in, for example, the early 1940s, but note that 99.9% of these people were Christians who supposedly knew the Bible.

      By your allusion to ‘99% of these people’ during the early1940s, are you suggesting that Hitler and the Nazi regime were Christians? If you are, you are only showing your complete ignorance of what defines a true Christian but of Hitler’s loathing of Christianity. A couple of his quotes might put you on the right track:: ‘The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity’ and ‘I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.’ Hitler was an occultist and practised the black arts.

      6. And if they did know it they could certainly extrapolate from the Hebrews committing genocide … to being justified in exterminating Jews.

      The accounts in Judges are historical in nature – merely descriptive – just as any other history of warfare. You have made the common mistake of assuming they are *prescriptive* which they manifestly are NOT. They were for a particular time and situation. You’ll have to look at the Qur’an for prescribed violence which fits better with Hitler who was supported by the Arab world in his hatred of the Jews.

      • deja vu says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 3:51 am

        Omission:

        If you are, you are only showing your complete ignorance of what defines a true Christian but of Hitler’s loathing of Christianity.

        Should be:

        if you are, you are *not* only showing your complete ignorance of what defines a true Christian but of Hitler’s loathing of Christianity.

        • Charles R.L. Power says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 10:49 am

          My views on believers’ acquaintance with the Bible are based on experience. When I mention the difference between the two accounts of David’s census, most believers have no idea what I’m talking about. Movies about, say, the Exodus tend all to be wrong, and in the same way, because people don’t actually derive them from the Bible. Believers generally don’t seem aware of the relationship between the parents of Moses and Aaron. And so on. If I mention inconsistencies, they brush them off with nonsense like “Some details appear in one story, some in another, as is to be expected,” even if far more than “details” are involved. The problem is that I have read the Bible, in the same sense as you may have read the latest J.D. Robb or James Patterson thriller: cover to cover, not a passage here, a passage there. This sets me apart from almost all believers — and non-believers, but then non-believers have little reason to read it while believers believe it to be the eternal Word of Almighty God, which makes it strange that they are not hungry for every single word.

          Of course inconsistencies are “readily explained” — by door-stoppers like Gleason Archer’s carefully titled “Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties”. Christians have had two thousand years to come up with often nonsensical explanations.

          The “99%” I referred to were people who acknowledged themselves are Christians and got married in Church, had their children educated in Christian denominational schools, and largely attended religious services every Sunday. I am aware of the peculiar Wotanistic rituals of Himmler and the SS, but these were hardly typical of all the people — not just members of the Nazi Party and not just Germans — who perpetrated the Holocaust. Christians, of course, make the circular argument that because Christianity teaches people to do good, then people who do evil can’t possibly be Christians.

          Finally, I don’t understand why a book which is supposed to teach us right and wrong seems to find nothing to condemn in the last three chapters of Judges aside, perhaps, from the Benjaminites’ destruction of the Levite’s property, namely his sex slave. No, I don’t expect you’ve ever read the last three chapters of Judges, because no one has ever made a movie of it and no one ever will.

          Hitler was an “occultist” in the same sense of those who read astrology columns in the newspapers. I suppose that the quotes are from the “Table Talk” book. It is curious that Hitler, a Roman Catholic who was never excommunicated (as were various men of power whose sins were relatively minor), kept such sentiments so private.

        • voegelinian says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 7:17 pm

          “… I have read the Bible, in the same sense as you may have read the latest J.D. Robb or James Patterson thriller: cover to cover, not a passage here, a passage there. This sets me apart from almost all believers…”

          1) that’s an odd way to read the Bible, given that it’s not structured as a novel, but rather as a collection of internal books. Especially the Old Testament, the reader would soon become bewildered and confused were he to plow through from Genesis to Malachi in a linear fashion (and even trying it in blocks within the Old Testament can get you in trouble if you don’t know where one block starts and the next stops, or which books outside of any given block are relevant). Considering the New Testament, each of the four Gospels certainly reads like a thriller, impelling the reader along to a dramatic conclusion, with a sense of increasingly illumination — yet also doom — haunting the narrative flow. And one can certainly profit by augmenting each Gospel by comparing it with the others (particularly John, compared with the other three “Synoptic” Gospels) — if one does not get overly obsessed and distracted, as secularists like Charles R.L. Power seems to be — by niggling quibbles of inconsistency along the way. But then the epistolary texts that come later would severely disrupt the doggedly linear tunnel vision of a person insisting on reading the Bible “in the same sense as you may have read the latest J.D. Robb or James Patterson thriller: cover to cover” — not to mention that Acts is a thrller, so to speak, in its own right; while John’s Apocalypse (aka “Revelation”) is a sui generis genre (existing in quite a few other works outside the Bible, known by scholars under the category of “apocalyptic literature”).

          Another thing to note from that quote from Charles R.L. Power:

          “… I have read the Bible, in the same sense as you may have read the latest J.D. Robb or James Patterson thriller: cover to cover, not a passage here, a passage there. This sets me apart from almost all believers…”

          As commenter deja vu noted in several instances of locution, this Charles R.L. Power character seems to have powers almost omniscient about vast swaths of hundreds of millions of people around the globe; and the glibly megalomaniac sentence he tosses off — “This sets me apart from almost all believers — and non-believers…” — has an almost God-like ring to it…

        • Angemon says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 10:47 am

          voegelinian posted:

          “this Charles R.L. Power character seems to have powers almost omniscient about vast swaths of hundreds of millions of people around the globe; and the glibly megalomaniac sentence he tosses off — “This sets me apart from almost all believers — and non-believers…” — has an almost God-like ring to it…”

          Awww, voegy, don’t be so harsh on Charles Power for his implied omniscient mind-reading powers. I’ll risk saying that’s one of those ways of speaking and acting that can be described as an “acquired taste” – it certainly was acquired by you.

        • deja vu says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 1:21 am

          Charles R.L.Power claims, ‘Hitler was an “occultist” in the same sense of those who read astrology columns in the newspapers.’ Sounds innocent enough, just a dabbler then? The reality is rather different. I quote:

          ‘Most biographers have underestimated the influence that Eckart exerted on Hitler. He was the wealthy publisher and editor-in-chief of an anti-semitic journal which he called In Plain German. Eckart was also a committed occultist and a master of magic. As an initiate, Eckart belonged to the inner circle of the Thule Society as well as other esoteric orders.

          Briefly, the creed of the Thule Society inner circle is as follows: Thule was a legendary island in the far north, similar to Atlantis, supposedly the center of a lost, high-level civilization. But not all secrets of that civilization had been completely wiped out. Those that remained were being guarded by ancient, highly intelligent beings (similar to the “Masters” of Theosophy or the White Brotherhood).

          The truly initiated could establish contact with these beings by means of magic-mystical rituals. The “Masters” or “Ancients” allegedly would be able to endow the initiated with supernatural strength and energy. With the help of these energies the goal of the initiated was to create a race of Supermen of “Aryan” stock who would exterminate all “inferior” races.

          There can be no doubt that Eckart – who had been alerted to Hitler by other Thulists – trained Hitler in techniques of self confidence, self projection, persuasive oratory, body language and discursive sophistry. With these tools, in a short period of time he was able to move the obscure workers party from the club and beer hall atmosphere to a mass movement. The emotion charged lay speaker became an expert orator, capable of mesmerizing a vast audience.

          One should not underestimate occultism’s influence on Hitler. His subsequent rejection of Free Masons and esoteric movements, of Theosophy, of Anthrosophy, does not necessarily mean otherwise. Occult circles have long been known as covers for espionage and influence peddling.

          Hitler’s spy apparatus under Canaris and Heydrich were well aware of these conduits, particularly from the direction of Britain which had within its MI5 intelligence agency a department known as the Occult Bureau.’

          If you still remain unconvinced, here’s a bit of background for you:

          http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_thule02.htm

        • Godless says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 9:07 pm

          I’ll risk saying that’s one of those ways of speaking and acting that can be described as an “acquired taste” – it certainly was acquired by you.

          Angemon even if your statement was true I don’t see how that is relevant to his comment.

        • Angemon says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 9:32 pm

          voeg’s mouthpiece posted:

          “Angemon even if your statement was true”

          Which it is.

        • voegelinian says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 9:16 pm

          Godless, Angemon persists in beating his dead horse of thinking I assume mind-reading; when what I am doing is saying that with regard to the problem of Muslims, neither side — the side that assumes innumerable Muslims are harmless (and that we should formulate policy on the basis of this unquantifiable number), or the side that assumes that no Muslim is harmless — can avoid making an assumption that would have to be based on mind-reading. And because of this dilemma, I say we need to err on the side of caution and proceed as though all Muslims are dangerous. Why Angemon and his friends gravenimage, Mirren, Wellington, et al. want to play Muslim Roulette rather than assume the worst about Muslims as I do, I can’t say for sure; but I suspect it has to do with residues of PC MC in their minds.

        • Angemon says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 9:46 pm

          voegelinian posted:

          “Godless, Angemon persists in beating his dead horse of thinking I assume mind-reading;”

          Which you do.

          “when what I am doing is saying that with regard to the problem of Muslims, neither side — the side that assumes innumerable Muslims are harmless (and that we should formulate policy on the basis of this unquantifiable number), or the side that assumes that no Muslim is harmless — can avoid making an assumption that would have to be based on mind-reading.”

          Nope. Only one side/person here is making statements such as “we must conclude that ALL muslims support sharia and are lying when they say they don’t”. That would be you.

          “And because of this dilemma, I say we need to err on the side of caution and proceed as though all Muslims are dangerous. ”

          Hold that thought.

          “ Why Angemon and his friends gravenimage, Mirren, Wellington, et al. want to play Muslim Roulette rather than assume the worst about Muslims as I do, I can’t say for sure; but I suspect it has to do with residues of PC MC in their minds.”

          Now that you ejaculated your mandatory smears, let’s cut to the chase. Let’s say there’s a muslim walking down the street, minding his own business. You, without mind reading, managed to identify him as a muslim, even though nothing in his appearance would indicate that he is. Since he’s a muslim you assume the worse and err on the side of caution. Now what do you do? Are you going to have the police arrest him for being muslim, investigate him, and, if no evidence of wrongdoing pops up, “reverse-engineer” a story explaining why you couldn’t find any evidence of wrongdoing and toss him of a plane over Sudan*? How do you, on your daily life, act differently that the people you regularly smear? That’s the elusive step 2 that you never, ever explain. You bark and yarp over and over “oh, we must assume the worst about all muslims because all of them are lying when they say they’re not for sharia” but you never explain how you will act upon it -when push comes to shove you prefer to smear others rather than fleshing out your stance. Keep it up and people might just start thinking that the doctor is a quack…

          *for newcomers who might think I’m just being absurd in my scenario with the talk about “reverse engineering” an explanation and toss them from a plane over Sudan, those ideas came from voegelinian himself

      • voegelinian says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 6:29 pm

        “They swallow only the parts that are spoon-fed to them in their weekly services.”

        In that quote above, I think “Charles R.L. Power” (those full nicknames I’ve seen pop up here and there at Jihad Watch that sound like they came out of some 1950 roster of Midwest novelists always sounded fishy to me — and invariably contained dubious posts) is referring to the deformed pedagogy of memes of post-modern anti-Christian secularism..

        • Charles R.L. Power says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 8:33 pm

          If you don’t read the Bible cover to cover, you don’t know whether you’ve read everything. I don’t have a terribly difficult time figuring out the relationship of the various books, since I’ve also read a fair amount of literature about the Bible.

          If you want to say that it is a bad idea to read the whole Bible, well, that’s precisely the attitude I think most Christians have, but you’re the first one I’ve encountered who actually admits it. I am reminded of Saint (!) Thomas More saying that maybe one layman could be allowed to read one gospel, and another allowed to read another gospel, as long as none of them has access to everything. (Is England the only country which was actually openly hostile to Bible literacy, I wonder?) This is certainly a great way of preventing people from discussing the “apparent” inconsistencies. But as it happens, it’s unnecessary. Now Bibles are available in every hotel room, and good Christians still don’t read it. Heck, I’ve invited Mormon missionaries into my home to discuss religion, and they’ve never read the whole Bible either. If this is the Word of God, why don’t people read it, all of it?

  28. KnowThyEnemy says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 2:10 am

    Meanwhile, Satan has banned his followers from treating Quranic statements metaphorically or allegorically. Shaitan says in surah 3 ayat 7-

    YUSUFALI translation: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

    PICKTHAL translation: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations – they are the substance of the Book – and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

    This verse clearly says that only bad Muslims see allegories and metaphors in the Quran and try to explain them. As for those Muslims who follow the verses as they are, the Quran lauds them by calling them “men of understanding”.

  29. kay says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 3:32 am

    I have studied a lot of Richard Dawkins videos on the subject of Islam and have promoted some of them. Am not familiar with his criticisms of Christianity and/ or Judaism but in the last video he states his belief that Christianity is benign.

    Richard Dawkins destroys muslim on morality
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu7AQTs_y5A

    Richard Dawkins “Islam Is One Of The Great Evils In The World”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNv8kvd2H8

    Richard Dawkins Tears Muslim Politician A New One
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlMQp6_fd7Q

    Richard Dawkins Responds to Ben Affleck
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOe5NSGdg-c

    “The Christian religion is benign, by comparison….and we should respect it as such.”
    –Richard Dawkins

    Richard Dawkins destroys arguments of crazy, potentially retarded religious fanatics

    • JIMJFOX says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 8:53 am

      Absolutely correct. Dawkins’ claim about toxicity is generalised and truthful; christian apologistic attempts to denigrate him are disingenuous. Put simply, Muhammad plagiarised existing Jewish and Christian scriptures [Torah, Old Testament] to invent his new religion for the Arab polytheists and layered on extreme violence, hatred and racism to suit his new military strength attained in Medinah.
      This has great appeal to the impoverished Bedouin thugs and bandits when promised 80% of the plunder from merchant caravans so they joined up in vast numbers. Surprise, surprise!

      • Screeminmeeme says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 4:42 pm

        You don’t know much about the Bible, do you? Or Christianity, in particular?
        Though the Old Testament provides the histories of creation/people/places, promises given only to Israel, and hundreds of prophecies concerning Israel’s Messiah, the New Testament (which begins at the cross, BTW) is the Life Manual for all Christians.

        There are ZERO commandments in the New Testament which tell the Christian to kill the enemy who refuses to convert. Or to kill anyone at all for that matter. In fact we are told to love our enemies….a concept alien to Islamic teaching.

        The Old Testament’s passages in which Israel was instructed to wipe out the enemy were confined to a particular time and place and are not applicable to Jews today, while the Quranic passages which incite the believer to violence and homicidal mania are open-ended and applicable to every Muslim today.

        So….There IS NO moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity whatsoever and Dawkins is clueless about the Christian faith or he would not have made such absurd statements about it.

        • AnnaK says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 5:16 pm

          I agree. Christianity is the total opposite of Islam and is the true religion of peace…….and virtue.
          Islam is the religion of violence , utter lies and vices.

        • kay says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 5:35 pm

          Re: “There IS NO moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity whatsoever…”
          ————————–
          TRUTH. Agreed by this professional [ Buddhist teacher type ] theologian. For about ten major reasons.

          Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed.
          Now I will not claim to understand Christianity. I am not well versed in Christianity. The relationship of Pauline Christianity to original primitive Christianity is COMPLETELY unclear to me.

          But I can evaluate Islam on all levels. I have done a very thoro analysis.
          Islam doesn’t work with anything else. It does not work with Judaism or Christianity.
          Islam OPPOSES everything else. Islam opposes all basic human rights. I think that is the main point here.
          There is no reason for Christians to OPPOSE Judaism.
          The Rabbi Jesus, was, well, he was Jewish.

          I simply have no interest in fighting Christian doctrine. I don’t have anything against Christianity in the broad sense.
          At this point I am a sworn enemy of the Vatican, just as I am an enemy of Fascism, Communism, and Islam. For several reasons which will be obvious to all here.
          Since I am a humanitarian and free society organizer, all these bad guys really piss me off. That is a social position, a political position, and a theological position.
          History is actually rather terrifying when you get into it. Same with religion, much of the time.
          And now everything is getting all like, you know, JRR Tolkien, with Mordor on the march and so forth.
          Buddhists, generally speaking, want to stay away from all this stuff. This should surprise no one.
          Unfortunately, there is nowhere left to run, and nowhere to hide.

          Martha And The Vandellas – Nowhere to Run (with lyrics) – HD
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbc-O_3_Ac

          The New Atheists are not exactly my people per se, but I definitely prefer them to many religious types. I try to avoid religious people. As much as possible.
          The prospect of getting burned at the stake or being stoned to death is so unappealing. And very impolite.
          People can deride and scorn Tolkien fans or wizards, and that is perfectly fine, but I have a broader concern here, and a rejoinder question for you:
          Since this is the Twenty First Century. How the HELL did we end up back in the effing Middle Ages?

      • voegelinian says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 7:26 pm

        kay and JIMFOX apparently have not read and digested the many sound critiques of the Dawkins statement from commenters on the previous page of comments here (click on “Older” to see them).

        • voegelinian says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 1:04 am

          P.S.: While I appreciate the asymptotic critiques of Islam from any one or more of the “Four Horsemen” (Dawkins, Sam Harris, Dennet, Hitchens), they inevitably amount to “close but no cigar” — and after 14 years of diverse bullshit in this vast, straggling, incoherent Conversation the West is having about the problem of Islam, we desperately need a cigar by now, especially from those who are influential.

    • Raja says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:11 pm

      Kay,

      Thanks for the info on:

      Richard Dawkins “Islam Is One Of The Great Evils In The World”
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNv8kvd2H8

      Is really appreciated. This guy is better than the axis of evil in the pack of Cameron, Obama, Merkel, Blair, Bush, Pope and many more so called secular leaders.

      • kay says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 7:14 am

        Hi Raja! 🙂
        Wow. I got two big thumbs up here for the anti-theist New Atheist Richard Dawkins.
        Didn’t expect that. Okay, this bridge is built and it will hold. All is not lost in the world of practical coalition-building!
        You know people, we can all fight on different stuff and argue general theology etc. LATER…when Mordor…I mean Islamic State… is destroyed.

        Now, I have given some Dawkins video links before, and also mentioned or even given links for Acts 17 Apologetics, and Pastor Dr. Jay Smith, and quoted John Calvin and Martin Luther wrt music in churches.

        Dr. Bill Warner and I emphasize that we are all in the same boat, and that we all have to row together ( his words ). What Warner does is not specifically for America or Christianity or for money or anything like that. Know this: Warner and I do what we do for humanity and for western civilization. He and I understand that identity politics is crippling.

        The counter-jihad work is difficult and dangerous at this time, and beset with enemies on every side.

        My evaluation is that
        1) Christianity is substantially a net negative in this fight ( Vatican, Anglican Church ).
        2) The “Feminists” today amount to a big fat zero. Don’t know what planet they’re on.
        3) The Left is very strongly pro-Islamist, as is the European Parliament.
        4) Atheists are a huge plus and desperately needed.
        Atheists like Dawkins, Sam Harris, Pat Condell, Douglas Murray ( and the late Christopher Hitchens ) have been actively and effectively helping to lead this fight. Ibn Warraq is atheist or agnostic.
        One of the big heroes is Geert Wilders. He’s a self-described agnostic. And he has put his life on the line to fight Mordor. His theological position makes sense too.
        I am a practical person, as any strategist must be. I favor the atheists, some agnostics, and various specific Christians and so forth. Because that’s what works, and that’s what is necessary. I hope this now makes sense.

  30. Enragedsince1999 says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 4:19 am

    The unspeakable evil the United States of America, England, Poland and Lithuania did unto the ethnic Russian people of the Donbas region, Donetsk and Lugansk. The evil. The crucifiction of Serbia was a “practice” for the “Big Job” on Russia. But because those war criminal nations are not ready yet to take on the whole Russia, they targeted the Russians of Ukraine first. Those are the serial Christian-crucifying nations. The forces of Antichrist. And to attain their evil ends, they turned to the Nazi West Ukrainians known to every Russian as “banderovci”, or banderites, mjust as they delivered the Serb Christians into the hands of the Nazi Croats, Bosnians and Kosovar Albanians. They mobilized the Nazi West Ukrainian banderites known for their unlimited sadism since WWII to carry out the violent Nazi putsch against the democratically elected President Yanukovich of Ukraine . This is how the Great Evil was unleashed. The Russians of Donbas kidnapped, raped, tortured and executed, schools, hospitals and residential neighborhoods leveled. The role of Poland is all the more appauling because it trained and aided the very banderites who torture – murdered over 200, 000 Poles during WWII. No low is too low for today’s Poland. Russia had saved the overwhelmingly Russian Crimea from an even worse fate. Unfortunately, it did not intervene militarily in defense of Donbas, and that region’s heroic Resistance have to defend themselves and their families on their own. My fellow Americans: see this epic Russian documentary that tells the whole truth on the evil our US government does in our name. The film is “Crimea: The Road Home” on YouTube. It tells the whole story that the government and MSM do not want you to know. It has English subtitles. The evil US-backed Kiev regime is openly allied with the Tartar Muslim Medjlis jihadis and openly declares its support for the ISIS:

    • DiMu says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:57 am

      You are a compete psychotic, nut-case wacko – your language is ‘Stalin-speak’ trash and you can take your Communist genocide and stick it up your smelly ars-!

      Death toll under Soviet Communism. RED TERROR (2 months in 1918) – 15,000 dead: Stalin’s COLLECTIVIZATION FAMINE 1932-33 – 6 million dead: Stalin’s GREAT PURGE – 720,000 executions, GULAG – 7 million incarcerated between 1934-1941 and almost 3 million still there at Stalin’s death – and that is just a few of the major statistics of a sum total of at least 25 MILLION SLAUGHTERED UNDER SOVIET COMMUNISM – not including those in the satellite Eastern European states. No wonder the Poles hate your guts!

      Communism has been the worst catastrophe on the face of the earth and makes ISIS looks like a Sunday school outing, and Communism slaughtered far more people than Hitler!

      • Raja says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 12:09 pm

        DiMu,

        Thanks for reminding us about the evils of Communism…

      • Enragedsince1999 says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 1:26 pm

        And what do you have to say about the US-backed Nazi West Ukrainian terror that is happening RIGHT NOW you sleazebag? Your history lessons about the long-gone Stalin era are irrelevant. As for the Poles, they have collectively plunged into a cesspool of dishonor by aiding the Nazi banderites who take pride in their past and have officially declared Bandera and Shukhevich “national heroes of Ukraine”? No past Stalin terror can be compared to the deeds of those hellish degenerates of the human race who took pride in codifying 139 methods of torture-executions that included cutting human beings in half at the waist with a saw, impaling them on a stake, and skinning them alive while impaled. Even the Stalin’s NKVD executioners looked civilized compared to those abominations of the human race. Of the more than 200,000 torture murders of Polish civilians including men, women and children, and even infants whom the banderites threw into wells , nailed to trees and burned alive, over 36,000 cases are fully investigated and documented in the General Prosecutor’s office in Poland . And the Poles are now backing those banderites, all out of the blind pathological hate toward the Russian people over old historical grudges ? ! The hate-possessed Poles deserve utter contempt, and so do you. And our beautiful Russian and Russian – Ukrainian peoples of Donbas have once again risen proudly against the Nazis as they did 73 years ago, covering themselves with glory. The tiny and lightly-armed Resistance have inflicted crushing defeats on the vastly outnumbering hordes of Ukro-Nazis in Illovaisk, Debalcevo, Doneck, Novo-Azovsk and elsewhere. The US-backed Nazi regime has run Ukraine into the ground and is now teetering on the brink of collapse. The Nazi Ukrainian criminals will face justice just as the Nazi Germans did, and their US, English, Polish and Lithuanian aiders and abetters will have to answer for their crimes, too.

        • sally says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 3:42 pm

          I’m sorry to read about the pain and anger you still feel. It is true that all of us at some time have been part cultures that committed horrors and the pint us that no one is innocent and is forgiven but nothing will compare to the bloodshed and suffering we have coming unless we can unite as humans in the face of the most pathological and barbaric evil ever. This site has many Jewish followers and we should let their incredible strength and good will be an example we need to follow to get though this.

    • Beagle says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 1:11 pm

      “My fellow Americans…” — You sound Serbian or Russian.

      I think Kosovo was a huge mistake. But your paranoid conspiracy slanders are not why.

      • Enragedsince1999 says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 3:25 pm

        NOT a mistake but a war crime. Let’s call things their names. The US and English war criminals had massacred the ONLY armed Resistance to the Muslims in Europe.

        • ecosse14 says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 5:57 am

          Enraged if you cannot even get the name of the UK correct how can we take abything else you write seriously.
          In a nutshell England is not the UK and the UK is not England

  31. Rick Spencer says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 5:18 am

    One must bear in mind that the Bible is essentially DESCRIPTIVE, whereas the Koran is PRESCRIPTIVE! This is why the Mohammedans violent by religious inspiration.

    • ich says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 6:59 am

      Good analogy Rick

  32. John Collignon says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 5:24 am

    I may have missed something by skimming the article, but to make NO MENTION of Jesus Christ does THE disservice to the CHRISTian system of belief. The Jews,unless believers in Christ, remain “ROOTED” in the Old Testament while Christians use the New Testament primarily OR SHOULD. Christ is EVERYTHING in the NT and by not stressing this enough, all hope of “scholarly” dissertation will be flawed. Atheists will always mock and belittle and promote mischief. Their EGOS demand nothing less. So….unless Christ is put directly IN THE MIDDLE of this or any other conversation on the Bible and Quran and their comparison, the ARGUMENT WILL BE FLAWED !!!

    • jayell says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 7:01 am

      Well, I never really understood why the ‘Old Testament’ is included with the Christian ethos unless it’s understood only to be there as a kind of backdrop to the New Testament, to show where it all came from and the environment into which Christianity was born. And of course to keep some of the ‘nice’ bits (e.g., the Psalms) which might transcend the here-and-now and have some universal relevance for the individual’s search for ‘what might lie beyond’. But as for the rest of it, where it merely recounts the on-going saga of the shenanigens of a middle-eastern nomadic tribe, with all the petty inter-necine punch-ups and the disgusting behaviour described above, I suppose it has some historical and sociological value, and maybe a few lessons in how NOT to conduct your affairs. Ans as for the ‘Song of Songs’ – well, I thought ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ was bad enough! I thought Jesus was trying to tell us to get shot of that lot?

    • mgoldberg says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:05 am

      Excuse me….. you may believe that your god guy is the god of all worlds. That is your privilege. I, as a jew, do not, and never will. Nor was it forced upon you to not believe, what you believe, by jews, but the opposite was certainly true: Jew were slaughtered and tormented and murdered and oppressed.
      My point: all utopianisms are tyrannical. Chrisitianity too, was a utopian interpretation of the Torah’s commands- G-d’s commands. Thus it too was capable of enormous oppression, and murder, as well as the tryanny of all utopian idealisms. Islam is a whole other breed- it is simply a fake of the Torah, Talmud, and your gospels that makes no pretense whatsoever, except of course today, where it simply claims along with the Left that it is merely the ‘oppressed’ that is it’s cause for it’s violence.
      Now…I remain rooted i what G-d taught- the Torah, and you can second guess the creator of the universe as The Torah and Judaism has no teaching to destroy you for that disbelief. The Torah, and the creater made that national religion to demonstrate the reality and existence of the creation via the creater and how to live a just and prayerful life. Now… you don’t have to believe this or anything.

      • Jay Boo says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 11:05 am

        I suspect that John Collignon is trying to stir up division.

      • Sue says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 5:01 pm

        Goldberg from sue
        I can appreciate why you feel so upset, we Christians would not have a bible if it were not for the Jews and the old testament. Christianity was borne out of Judaism and God said Jews would be a blessing to the world. I personally don’t think you can separate thevold/new testament they are intrinsically joined as the breathed word of God. But, believe or not Jesus came as God incarnate to save us all, you may not believe this yet, but as God’s chosen people he will reveal this at the bedtimes to you. As Jews and Christians it is vital to both to love and support each other whatever the differences, our current muslim situation calls for this, Shalom.

        • Sue says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 5:04 pm

          Sorry meant to say endtimes

      • kay says

        Oct 21, 2015 at 1:57 am

        Re: “Islam is a whole other breed- it is simply a fake of the Torah, Talmud, and your gospels…”
        ______________________
        TRUTH. The Koran is a fake. It is unreadable. The Koran is self-contradictory. It contradicts the Old Testament ( which I did not study in any substantial way ) and it contradicts the New Testament ( which I also did not study ). To use a Jewish phrase – for which I know the original meaning – Islam Just Never Flew!

        And that is not a personal grudge. And both philosophically and religiously, I need not care. But I have seen analysis of some passages and I followed the very sharp Pastor Dr. Jay Smith ( on youtube ). And we have all the stuff from Dr. Bill Warner too. And Dr. Andrew Bostom.

        So anyway MG, I’m not agreeing with you because it “suits me”, I would wholly oppose Islam if it actually made any coherent sense. It’s not even one book, it’s two different sets of pseudo-revelation from a demented guy who had no actual connection to Torah or Talmud or the Gospels or anyone who taught or lived that stuff.

        I only figured that stuff out in the last nine months. I am a theologian who for twenty years completely ignored the Abrahamic traditions. So much for that approach. Turns out the Koran is the ugliest, most nonsensical book I have ever come across.
        The few times I rely to read it I think, “Well, this section has a context and an interpretation and I need hadith and sura to actually understand it.” And it has no legitimate sequence! It’s just a complete ugly insane mess several times over.

        So it takes a PhD physicist like Dr. Bill to run a critical analysis on the texts and traditions of this stupid pseudo-religious pile-of-stuff “book” to even make heads or tails of it. And there is nothing good in it. A lot of the Koran is just about dealing with kaffir like me. ( In my case, they have to kill me. )
        And there are like 164 jihad verses.

        Now I happen to understand why Islamists want to kill ALL the Jews. It’s because that way the Islamists get to “own” the tradition and eliminate the source tradition which can testify against the Koran.
        Any seventh grader can see that’s the fundamental contradiction and weakness. Mohammed did NOT receive or understand any living Judeo-Christian tradition so he faked one and of course made mistakes. So he has to kill the witnesses.

        But even that cover-up for vicious genocidal psychopathy doesn’t work now. We’ve all got access to the translations and analyses. The Islamofascist strategy people know that. So now they’re escalating real fast and they want to break free speech in all western countries to hide from all literate people the fundamental flaws in their fascist Mafia type almost-religion.

        Perhaps many or most here get all that. Don’t know. But I’m putting the word out very broadly. And bringing people here, and recommending good analyses and proven strategies. It’s time to break Islam. It’s time to totally break Islam. I’ll do my best. For me it’s just about trying to help save civilization. And this is all getting really ugly. No pressure.

    • oldblindjohn says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 2:14 pm

      “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

    • Gary Grammat says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 8:03 pm

      Jesus performed the greatest miricle, which no one before or after could match: he found 2000 PIGS in ISRAEL!!!

  33. duh_swami says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 5:43 am

    The Qurab i a dark and evil fairy tale, whispered into the ear of a psychotic Arab, by an incoherent angel named Gabie.
    The Bible is a compilation of ‘books’, written by people who were not eye witness to what they were writing about..
    The value of the Bible is the ‘Supreme Connectable’. A commandment is not a request. This seems religious because the focus is on God, but it is really a formula. It trains your mind to ficus and concentrate, increase awareness and clarity. The Catholic mantra ‘Hail Mary;, while doing Rosary, of the Hindu Japa with a mala’, (beads) are examples,, In doing japa you don’t have to use God as a focus. You can use any entity you love or have fondness for. So even atheists can do this as a form of mind science.
    Islam has nothing like this winch is why ‘inner spiritual struggle hihad’ has little success…
    The idea is to fill your cup with love till it runneth over.

  34. Ben says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 6:14 am

    There is also a very decisive stuctural, historical and anthropological difference between bible and quran which makes up for the very different cultural rules and ideologies they present their followers, and hence the behavior they encourage or impose.
    Both of course abound in contradictions, but on the ethical level the new testament of love and peace, tolerance and forgiveness was not added by coincidence to the often barbaric jewish tanakh.
    The christian evangelium, or good message, originated, was written and compiled in the multicultural and humanistic Hellenistic to Roman society, and it intentionally complements and overrules all kinds of tribal and barbaric rules and traditions of the tanakh, including circumcision, dietary laws, ritual slaughter, holy war etc., to be a universal religion of salvation for all humankind.
    In the wake of buddhism, and likewise with monks, ascetics, councils and monasteries, the revolutionary reversal of values of the christian message was peace instead of war: Pax Romana became Pax Christi. It is again echoed in the ideals of theFrench Revolution: liberté, égalité, fraternité.

    For the message was perverted very soon, and not only barbaric invasions but also religious persecutions of socalled heretics led the way to the middle ages with violence and warfare everywhere. This environment was the birthplace of islam, and is mirrored in the quran.
    Oddly, this literal word of the same sole allmighty god is structured without any reason or logic, simply written down from the longest to the shortest sura after its compilation from all the presumed revelations of Muhammad, thereby completely obliterating the chronological evolution of the verses.
    But in fact (or faith) it turns out that the more tolerant and peaceful verses of the earlier Meccan period, when Muhammad was vulnerable and powerless, were followed, complemented, abrogated or corrected by later verses from Medina, when he had become a powerful warlord, that preach intolerance, violence and holy war against all unbelievers. According to muslim traditions and belief.
    The ethical difference with the bible could not be greater: in the quran Musa of course doesn’t get the biblical ten commandments because they would guarantee Muhammad and his followers certain hell.
    Neither is there a sermoun of the mount with Isa in the quran: biblical figures and stories are completely stripped of any ethical, humanistic content.

    So, in the (evolution of the) bible, peace overrules war. Ethics win over evil. Happy ending.
    But in the (evolution of the) quran, war overrules peace. Imperialism and fascism, submission and discrimination against the rest of mankind are obligatory. Ruthless, without any shame or conscience.
    And after so many centuries of arrested development, the world is still harassed by this barbaric, atavistic legacy every single day. Millions of people. Millions of victims. It has to stop.

    • kay says

      Oct 21, 2015 at 2:31 am

      Re: “the revolutionary reversal of values of the christian message was peace instead of war: Pax Romana became Pax Christi. It is again echoed in the ideals of the French Revolution: liberté, égalité, fraternité.”
      _____________________________
      Nope. Definitely not. Uh uh uh. Gotcha.
      And no one from France nor anyone who had even a small surface-level understanding of the French Revolution would fall for that line. You didn’t even get to Wikipedia on this!
      The French Revolution was BLOODY.
      Big royal estates were being built. Peasants were starving. The Church and the royalty were in charge.
      The people rose up and slaughtered royalty and lots of Catholic clergy.

      People say “Liberte’ Egalite’ Fraternite’ ” but that’s NOT the French Revolution. The REAL French Revolution is
      Liberte’.. Egalite’. Fraternite’. Laicite’. With A Vengeance.

      And people like Richard Dawkins and Voltaire and Stephane Charbonnier inherit that anti-royalist anti-Catholic revolution. I am a “son” of the American Revolution. But at this point I am also a True Son of the French Revolution. The frogs really matter to me. I love them a lot, and I love the Republique. The official frogs really should give me a French passport. In a way I’m fighting for them now. And the Force is with me. Tu comprends?

      There is NO “happy ending” here. Not by a long shot! At best we have a full century of conflict across many parts of Europe, including Paris, Marseilles, and all of France. I know more about the story here than you do. You don’t have the whole cloth. I do. Therefore I say
      Liberte’.. Egalite’. Fraternite’. Laicite’. Authenticite’. Solidarite’.

      Alors, ecoutes-moi: SANDIOUS! CAP DE DIEU! MILLE DIOUX!
      .
      To repeat:
      “Laicite'( secularism ) is really to refuse that we are living in a society where the law, the justice, of course the state is inspired by religious rules instead of human law. . .” from
      Author Caroline Fourest on Secularism against Fanaticism (Secular Conference) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_BUjpqIgp8

      “Jedi do not fight for peace. That’s only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm.”
      — Mace Windu

  35. duh_swami says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 6:14 am

    The Bible had many authors, thought to be ;inspired’, while the Quran only has one, Gabriel, who is not all that inspiring. Well, maybe if you are a psychotic Arab hiding out in a cave Gabriel might be inspiring. I’m sure when Mahound was pressed three times he sudden;yt got inspired.
    The ‘inspired Bible has layers. There are real and imaginary events, real and imaginary cast of characters, real and imaginary history. Most of the ‘imaginary;’ has symbolic meaning, lost to most readers….The gems of the Bible can be condensed to 0ne or two pages. You can read the rest, or not read the rest, it’s all the same. The Supreme Commandment is the key…

    • mgoldberg says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:15 am

      Rabbi Hillel was asked by a scoffer, what was the meaning of the Torah.
      He replied ‘That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.’

      One should note that throughout the Torah and Books of the Bible of the Jews- there were 54 listed prophets of G-d, amongst many many more who had nothing for the ages in the future, but only their times and people. And amongst those 54 prophets, was a consistent message with sub messages and they all agreed. This was a compendium that established not the conquering of the world, by Jews, but the establishment of a just society, to be a light unto other ‘nations’.
      And others will scourge this for whatever reasons, and they are free to do so, because that ‘reasoning’ and thought is what we are meant to do. The caveat:

      ‘That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.’

  36. ich says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 6:58 am

    I am betting he was trying to make some extra $$ attacking Muslims
    but it was falling on deaf ears , so why not kick ole lucky.
    Christians are so easy to pick on.

    It could be fear also…..uhh ohhhh , Muslims will kill me so
    I better start back at the Jesus freaks

    • Raja says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 11:49 am

      Ich,

      Very true, Christians are the most soft targets that too from WITHIN.

  37. Michael says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 7:50 am

    The message of the New testament promotes love for one another, to commit no violence, and to live in peace with your fellow man.

    The message of the koran, indeed the instructions to believers, is one of committing extreme violence – murder, even – in repect of those who do not believe in the islamic tenets.

    Islamists are committed to a cult religion which is not only a way of life, but a way of operating agovernment, complete with laws. Islamists do not turn the other cheek, they do not love their fellow man, they are committed to wiping out infidels and total world domination.

  38. JIMJFOX says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 8:58 am

    The most likely reason why Islam exists today is APOSTASY.
    No other religion kills those who no longer believe.

  39. Aussie Infidel says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 9:07 am

    My grandmother, who was a secular Jew, renounced her religion because, “It made her sick to think that any God could command such atrocities.” She claimed “if that was what God had ordered, he wasn’t deserving of her respect.” Instead of Joshua being “obedient to God”, it’s much more likely that the Biblical verses were concocted to justify the attacks on the cities mentioned.

    These verses only reinforce the opinion of most atheists, that the problem is not just Islam, but religion – all religion! After all, religions are merely systems of belief in supernatural beings or entities, without one shred of proof available – or even desired – that’s why they are called faiths.

    As for scripture (of any religion) being divinely inspired – What rubbish! That’s kindergarten thinking. Fairy stories are for children – not adults, who supposedly can think rationally. The problem for most devoutly religious people, is that they have been subjected to so much indoctrination as children, they are conditioned to an irrational worldview – trapped with a deluded mindset, which is difficult to change. As the old Jesuit dictum goes, “Give me the boy until he is seven, and I’ll give you the man.” That doesn’t always apply of course; and despite the brainwashing, many of us have managed to leave these supernatural beliefs behind in the garbage bin where they belong, and learned to think for ourselves.

    Nevertheless, Robert is correct in stating that the violent passages in the Bible are “descriptive rather than prescriptive”, or in other words, they are ‘historical’ rather than “marching orders for believers” today. Also, these verses are taken only from the Old Testament. The New Testament, which Christians follow, has no such violent verses (AFAIK). And no Jewish rabbi or Christian priest or pastor, preaches ‘holy war’ against unbelievers; but Islamic imams most certainly do – in virtually every mosque in every country on Earth. As the Ayatollah Khomeini once remarked, “After Friday prayers, the only thing a devout Muslim fears is Allah.”

    • Raja says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 11:46 am

      Aussie Infidel,

      You wouldn’t have been on JW if God had not commanded the Jews to specifically kill some barbaric / savage tribes (as that was the prevalent culture those days) . There was just no concept of co-existence those days. Sad that your grand mother couldn’t see this truth either THOUGH she considered herself to be SECULAR. indeed sad.

      • Aussie Infidel says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 8:59 am

        Raja,

        There were many savage and barbaric tribes throughout human history, and any one of their battles could have resulted in the loss of a vital ancestor for any of us. Our lives are simply the result of a long series of fortuitous circumstances, or what we might call pure luck. But what has that got to do with ‘God’?

        You speak of God – as most religious people do – as if He is real. But the God concept is simply a belief dreamed up by our primitive ancestors at the dawn of human history, to explain their own existence and the world about them. These early humans were largely ignorant pre-scientific people – and consequently they got it wrong. They knew very little about physics, chemistry, geology, biology or astronomy (and as an old astronomer, I can attest to that), or anything else in nature, except how to feed and protect themselves – and procreate. The result is that now we have hundreds of different religions across the world – each having evolved separately (classical Darwinism) – and each claiming to be the one true faith. What an absurd state of affairs!

        Nevertheless, religious beliefs have persisted because they have been handed down from one scientifically illiterate generation to the next throughout human history, and until recent times, no one was knowledgeable enough to challenge their validity. I am reminded of the words of the author Isaac Asimov (also an Atheist) who once remarked, “It’s not that I believe scientists always get it right, but that non-scientists almost always get it wrong.” For a bit of light relief (and some rare insights), have a look at this video set to the ‘Galaxy’ song from ‘The Meaning of Life’.
        http://dingo.care2.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf

        When you talk about ‘truth’, you obviously have your own definition of what that means. But whatever you understand by ‘religious truth’ would have no validity in science. As for co-existence – in primitive societies, initially there would have been conflicts over all manner of things. But eventually, when people began to settle down in tribes and clans, they had to establish rules of behaviour, in order to survive. No doubt there would have been some fractious individuals who broke the rules, but eventually they would have been killed or driven out of the tribe to live as hermits. But from these primitive beginnings, the ‘golden rule’ developed, long before any of the world’s present religions were invented.

        Far from being “sad”, I’m very happy that my education and experience has enabled me to see through many of the irrational arguments put forward by those who peddle supernaturalism – or in other words, it’s provided me with a good ‘bullshit detector’, which is indispensable when dealing with Muslims.

        However, if people still want to believe in a God, that’s up to them. I can’t prove they’re wrong; and vice versa. We are dealing with a hypothetical speculation, for which there is no rational answer. The important thing is that we all learn tolerance and respect each other’s right to believe or not believe, as we wish. That’s something that most Westerners have learned to do over the last hundred years or so – but something which still eludes the Muslims. In Islam, there is no universal golden rule. Muslims regard other Muslims as their ‘brothers’ or ‘sisters’, but the rest of us infidels (Atheists, Jews and Christians alike), can all go to hell, and must be subjugated – which is the root cause of all the present strife.

        “Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah (discord) and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors (those who resist the jihad).” (Quran 2:193).

        Although I agree with Dawkins’ analysis of religion, his criticisms often tend to be abrasive – and I see no point in that. I believe in freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. You cannot have one without the other. Everyone should be free to believe whatever they like, provided it does not harm others – the main exception there being Islam. Clearly, Islam does great harm to non-Muslims – and many Muslims too – particularly women.

        Dawkins is an academic, and probably also influenced by leftist politics. These days, on most university campuses, political correctness, and cultural relativism are almost obligatory. But Dawkins would be wise to remember that Muslims have no love for disbelievers of any kind. If the Muslims ever do gain political power, Atheists would get only two choices: “Convert or die!” Jews and Christians (if they survive the jihadist onslaught) might be allowed to live in humiliation as dhimmis and pay the jizya tax.

        “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [Islam] from those who were given the Scripture [Jews & Christians] – [fight] until they give the jizyah [protection tax] willingly while they are humbled [as dhimmis or second class citizens].” (Quran 9:29).

        Please, let us respect each other’s beliefs – and reserve our criticisms for Islam.

  40. Manual Paleologos says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 10:15 am

    That’s mainly Richard Dawkins being Richard Dawkins. He is obviously not familiar with the New Testament, which contains only the commandment of Love, and to spread the Good News.

    Islam is the only religion I know of, that contains an active and immutable commandment to kill non believers.

    • Jack Rawlinson says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 12:16 pm

      *cough*

      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

      • Foolster41 says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 11:33 pm

        So you know how to cherry pick. So what?
        “Christians are washed in the blood of Jesus”
        Yep, intentionally misunderstanding what people believe to score points sure is honest. *offers cough drop*

    • Pong says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 8:22 pm

      It is also anti-semitic, though not as much as koran is.

      • deja vu says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 5:01 am

        Pong:’It is also anti-semitic, though not as much as koran is.’

        References please.

  41. shosh7154 says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 10:23 am

    surah 8 aya 39 literally translated is: Kill them until the fitnah (idolatry) is no more and religion is for allah.

  42. Raja says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 11:35 am

    The chrisitancourier.com has termed him as God-hater and has put up more than half a dozen articles in his “honor” in as many years.

    Any / all of the articles can be accessed after googling-richard dawkins on christiancourier.com

    This guy might be financially linked to Saudi or some other Muslim state or he might just be an idiot craving for LOTS OF ATTENTION through his illogical / igno-rant and stupid statements.

    • Raja says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:32 pm

      CORRECTION:

      My earlier comment contained:

      This guy might be financially linked to Saudi or some other Muslim state

      This is not plausible as he has been very critical of Islam too.

      Dawkins needs to more informed about Bible/Christianity.

      MY APOLOGIES to him and all who love him/look up to him.

  43. Marvin Clay says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 11:46 am

    Mr. Dawkins

    First of all God is God and We are not…God can kill and bring back to life…God Owns Everything that exists…including You and I…He is not interested in our Opinions…just our willingness to accept the authority He Alone has…You probably have not noticed that the books of the Bible were not written by
    men to just here themselves talk about God…They were breathed by God…they plainly tell You that All Those that keep Gods Law have a good understanding…the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

    The fear of God is the rightful respect you can only gain by searching the books of the word of God to try and understand the very Mind of God …there are metaphorical or allegorical approaches such as you elude to …but not with The Word of God…God Says What He Means and Means What He Says… Most scholars would be very confused if you tried to demonstrate Any comparison of the documents that the Christian Bible present and this Quran…God mentions professing ourselves to be wise we have become fools…He tells us to prove all things and hold fast to what is right…if you can change the very instruction to love your enemy by the Lord of the Universe to something else…You are the blind trying to lead the blind…Prove Your Point or step aside…let Those who are Ignorant be Ignorant still.

    • Pong says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 8:51 pm

      To me instruction to love your enemies is not only unrealistic, but also is totally immoral.

      • Raja says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 9:24 pm

        Pong,

        For man’s own good / health Jesus wants to His followers to leave grudge, hatred etc and be at peace with enemies. God does the rest for man’s problems. Loving the enemy need not necessarily means going around shaking hands and kissing like middle east people do.

  44. Truth Seeker says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 11:46 am

    Persons who do not know, what is Bible will give Absurd Statements like this. No Wonder.
    Bible was written in a Time Span of 1400+ Years by 40 Authors. It has the Advices for a Particular Context, Advise for Ever etc. It shows many Incidents too, but are not to copy for Generation to Generation.
    In fact if there were Toxic Teachings in the Bible all other Religions would have been wiped out by now.
    Thus anyone can realise Bible doesn’t give ant Toxic Teaching.

    • celticwarriorcanada says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 12:34 pm

      AMEN! AMEN!

  45. celticwarriorcanada says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 12:31 pm

    Dawkins could begin by ACTUALLY READING THE JUDEAO CHRISTIAN BIBLE FROM COVER TO COVER which he appears to NEVER HAVE DONE or if he did he either SHOULD GET GLASSES or HE IS NOT A GOOD READER ! THANK YOU ROBERT FOR EXPOSING DAWKINS ERRONEOUS VIEWS REGUARDING THE BIBLE ! Even in the early stages of ISRAELS BEGINNINGS there is no DIVINE SANCTION for RAPE or SEX SLAVES . IF DAWKINS cannot see the difference between THE BIBLE and the koran , some thing so obvious ! Why would I believe any of his PSEUDO SCIENTIFIC MUSINGS ?

    • Joseph says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm

      @ celticwarriorcanada
      The Bible is not just any book. To read it from cover to cover just once does it a great injustice. The Bible is complicated and interwoven to the extent that you need spiritual guidance to have it make sense. I severely doubt that a man like Dawkins will ask for such a thing and therefore he will remain in the dark. The Bible to him will remain as just another compilation of words, forever meaningless to him.

      • deja vu says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 3:33 pm

        Well said, Joseph. Obviously Dawkins has never been in a Theology library, or even visited a Christian bookshop which supplies books for academics. Even the shorter books of the Bible, such as Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, have scholarly commentaries which can run into 3 volumes. The detail is astonishing, yet atheists like to scoff as if there haven’t been over 2000 years of scholarship and distinguished academics have ‘missed something’. Their arrogance and ignorance is only matched by their condescension. I am no scholar by any means, but even ordinary Christians like me can study just *one* book of the Bible over the course of a year.

        Some of these self-important atheists and objectors haven’t a clue how interwoven the Bible is, how every book, though written over 1500 years by 44 writers carries the same essential message in the same ‘voice’. Neither do they seem to consider that the Bible is made up of historical narratives, poetry, songs, wisdom, books of prophecy for the coming Messiah and those dealing with eschatology (end times). The people of the OT looked forward to the Messiah; those living from the 1st century onwards look back at the numerous references to, and promises of, His incarnation being fulfilled.

        The fact that ‘warts and all’ are included, some hideous characters are laid bare, and that even the most noble individuals can slip, is used by detractors as a criticism, but in fact shows the truth of the narratives. Were they fiction (I won’t use the childish term ‘fairy stories’) these would never demonstrate the omniscience of God, nor his sovereignty.

        Furthermore, I ask Dawkins and his followers if they would be prepared to suffer and die for their belief, as Christians have always done and are doing increasingly today in unprecedented numbers. Would you still claim there is no God if you were about to be hanged, shot or someone had a knife at your throat? You’d better think about this because if you shut Christianity out of Western society you will find out that Islam has no time for atheists.

        • Joseph says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 3:52 pm

          I think you said it better deja vu.
          Might I add….Not one single thing in the Bible has been proven to be false.
          Just the permutations for the birth/life/death/resurrection of JESUS CHRIST are off the charts.

  46. bodhiden says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    I enjoy Richard Dawkins a lot. As a Jew i know of the terrible anti-semític programs of Christians through out the ages killing perhaps millions of the Jewish People: England, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France. They were as bad a the Jihadis today and their religions whether Protestant or Catholic gleefully tried to wipe out the Jewish people. Christians in this website always defend Christianity as if it is something peaceful, but it has never been. The main difference today between the Jihadi Muslims and the fundamentalist Christian is that the. Muslims have power o murder but the western Christians are controlled by secular constitutions. As for comparing he Koran and the Bible, well that depends on the acts committed by their believers!

    • Joseph says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 4:29 pm

      Then why do they call some of us Judaeo-Christians. I will defend my Jewish brothers. So bodhiden, please stop painting with such a wide brush. The wider the brush the more paint you get on the windows and the less you will see.

    • somehistory says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 4:44 pm

      bodhiden
      One word for your comment: hogwash.

      • Joseph says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 5:10 pm

        Somehistory, I wanted to say something much, much, MUCH worse but ehh, water off a duck’s back.
        I have half a mind to go to my local Jewish bakery and buy everything for sale so that no one else will have any. That will show my Jewish brothers who is king bagel !!!

        • somehistory says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 6:46 pm

          Joseph,
          When I read stuff like some have written here in defense of dawkins ‘ foolish claims about the Bible and Christianity, I have to spend extra time in prayer, knowing that Jehovah God, our Creator and the Judge of all, will take care of things in His own time and in His own way. His Son warned us that we would be lied about…Jesus was lied about, King David was lied about…and so many others…what extra Fine company we are in when people lie about us and reproach us. And we can wait of God to make everyone know Him and become aware of His Awesome Power and Glory. (Ezekiel wrote over and over that “the nations will know Jehovah”)

          I worked for a Jewish man and his family at one time. He tried to hire me full time from my other job because he did business there and liked my honesty, They had come to the U.S. from Iran.
          People like the poster above have no clue. They just like to spout anger and insults out of their own unhappiness.

    • deja vu says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 8:46 pm

      bodhiden:

      This is what happens when you look at sinful people who claim to believe, or the despicable actions of medieval church hierarchies instead of at Jesus Christ. There is not one who is righteous except God Himself.

      The first church was not Roman Catholic, as they like to claim, but apostolic. It was intended to be a living organism, likened to a body with Christ as its head. It was never intended to be a bloated organisation with self-appointed clerics and popes making up dogma as they went along. The claim that the Jews had ‘killed’ Jesus promulgated by the Roman Catholic Church. The truth is that Jesus laid down His life of His own accord – nobody could kill Him any more than they could kill God. Many tried attack Him but He evaded them until the time was right. Besides, the whole reason He came to this earth was to seek and save the lost, and to suffer, die and rise again so that, believing in Him, they might be forgiven and redeemed. He also demonstrated God’s love for His people.

      You say: ‘the main difference today between the Jihadi Muslims and the fundamentalist Christian is that the. Muslims have power to murder but the western Christians are controlled by secular constitutions’.

      The fundamentals of Islam and Christianity couldn’t be more opposite. Not surprising since the attributes of YHWH and Allah are as different as light and darkness. It is not entirely unexpected that, as Allah is capricious, unknowable and cruel, there would evolve a doctrine of forced conversion. You also betray a lack of knowledge about the teachings of the New Testament. Jesus, who was a Jewish rabbi, teaches His followers that God is knowable, that they must obey the 10 Commandments, forgive those who do them wrong, to do good to those who hate them – very difficult to do in practice, but that God’s holy standard. Both YHWH and Allah can not be one and the same.

      To state that ‘western Christians are controlled by secular constitutions’ is to suggest that we don’t answer to an altogether Higher Power, nor are we shaped by Him and His teachings. As Jesus said, “Render to Caesar (Governments) that which is Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” Secular law took the 10 Commandments as its foundation. So where’s the need for ‘control’ of Christians? It was the Protestant Reformation which began to loosen the terrible grip of the Roman Catholic Church on Western Society.

      As a Christian who has been studying the Penteteuch all this year, I am indescribably grateful for the whole counsel of God, the Bible. The New Testament is only enriched by learning the eternal truths of God. As a Christian I love those whom the Lord God loves, His chosen people Israel and their Jewish Messiah Yeshua. The jihadis are the enemies of both of us.

      • Pong says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 9:28 pm

        Studying the peñteteuch, you may be noticed that the first commandment can be only applicable to the Jews.
        As for what is to caesar and what is to god, I would be embarrassed to mention, if I were a christian. It is total nonsense. Currency was shekels, not dinarium and no Pharisee would have carried an image. Even romans had to use shekels, as no jew would except a coin with an image for any payment, but a Pharisee having one?!…
        Tell me, how anybody would take a book, which is full of such nonsense seriously?

        • Joseph says

          Oct 18, 2015 at 11:51 pm

          Pong, I suggest that you read the Bible again. Your statement is so full of nonsense that I am not even going to justify it by answering. Read Matthew Ch22 the whole thing.
          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=KJV

          There are people out there that think they are funny by posting silly questions and ignorant statements to waste our time. I think you are one of those because you say the Bible is nonsense.
          But here is a short answer anyway.
          #1) The money was TRIBUTE money…to the Romans….get it?
          #2) Matt ch22 36-38
          36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
          37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
          38 This is the first and great commandment.

          Jesus answered #2 better than I can, so how is this only applicable to the Jews???

          So far as money used at the time of Jesus read
          http://www.historicjesus.com/glossary/coins.html
          Someone has been lying to you. I would check out the facts first..your soul depends on it.

        • voegelinian says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 11:51 am

          “…no Pharisee would have carried an image”

          Sounds very… Islamic.

    • Angemon says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 10:29 am

      bodhiden posted:

      “As for comparing he Koran and the Bible, well that depends on the acts committed by their believers!”

      I was going to write a longer post, but I believe this perfectly encapsulates your ass-backwards logic. Religions are not defined by what those professing to be their followers do by what their holy texts say. By your “logic”, if a muslim does not have sex slaves that means that the quran forbids muslims from keeping sex slaves. How do you account for quran’s 4:24 then?

      • Jeremiah says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm

        There has never been persecution of the Jewish people by Christians. Papacy is not Christian, especially not while they were suppressing the Bible between 600 and 1600 AD.

        The People of the Book are those who read the Bible!

      • Jeremiah says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm

        There has never been persecution of the Jewish people by Christians. Papacy is not Christian, especially not while they were suppressing the Bible between 600 and 1600 AD.

        The People of the Book are those who read the Bible!

        • Jay Boo says

          Oct 19, 2015 at 12:40 pm

          No Clean Hands
          Regardless, if we look at the events and timeline of the inquisition it coincides with the Muslim invasions and expulsion of Muslims and was possibly an indirect response to Muslims who were a direct threat to Europe. It could even be argued that some or many Jewish merchants unknowingly or knowingly assisted with the Muslim infiltration and invasion by opening up Europe’s back door.
          Now we have Merkel opening doors to Muslim hordes.

  47. Edward says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 3:29 pm

    I would like to repost an essay previously posted as a reply for this article’s commentary list. I would think the wide distribution of this gist of his bears to be read so the general public knows what is causing the present sinister motivator of the tragedies reported daily in the news media. So, to better critique the legitimacy or illegitimate quality of the Muslim’s world religion …….Islam!

    The commenter also points out to the original appeal that has recruited many the past centuries. The same trend is now peaking, but with far greater potential because of better financial resources, transportation logistics, modernized weapons, technology and wider Muslim countries allied membership.

    Re-Post: Quotes

    JIMJFOX says
    October 18, 2015 at 8:53 am
    Absolutely correct. Dawkins’ claim about toxicity is generalised and truthful; christian apologistic attempts to denigrate him are disingenuous. Put simply, Muhammad plagiarised existing Jewish and Christian scriptures [Torah, Old Testament] to invent his new religion for the Arab polytheists and layered on extreme violence, hatred and racism to suit his new military strength attained in Medinah.

    This has great appeal to the impoverished Bedouin thugs and bandits when promised 80% of the plunder from merchant caravans so they joined up in vast numbers. Surprise, surprise!

    • Edward says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 5:45 pm

      The Islamic religion was founded by avarice and greed by its founder, Mohammad and his tribal Bedouin followers. Some of the pre Islamic time Bedouin’s were Christians. Perhaps, the introduction of the Christianity’s notable named figures written in the Koran was because of their ties with these former Bedouin Christians.

      • Edward says

        Oct 18, 2015 at 6:14 pm

        If the Islamic religion was founded by avarice and greed, the tenets of Islam could not have been inspired by God. For the God we all know made us steward’s of his free gifts here on earth! Our growth here on earth is to be acquired by our hands in a righteous manner and not by killing and stealing. Thereby, the Islamic concept is a man inspired false religion.

  48. LibertysSon says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    Dawkins, Not a true bible scholar, makes a common mistake of failing to rightfully divide the scriptures in to the Old and the New Covenant. At Christ’s death which started the Church Age, a New Covenant was begun and the Old Covenant was fulfilled. I dare him to find a violent or evil order from Jesus or God in the New Testament.
    The Torah and OT were a History and blueprint for Israel to be founded and draw near, to seal and preserve the Oracles of God’s Word or Scripture.
    With the Substitutional Death of Jesus, just as the Apostle Paul once said, …”All things are fulfilled and All Men find forgiveness and justification through God’s Grace in Jesus Christ. The Law, which leads to death, has been replaced with the Law of Faith and Love, that leads to Life Everlasting..

  49. R Russell says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Dawkins is a know-all and believes he knows and understands all the Bible teaches. He repeatedly makes mistakes, ignores the historical setting and quotes out of context. However since he likes to come across as the fount of all knowledge, he is unlikely to admit his error.
    Thus what he has written here only exposes his lack of knowledge. The Bible says, ‘If the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness’, Dawkins believes in panspermia, presumably brought here by aliens. Truly darkness.
    Dawkins like all atheists hates the Bible as is evident here.
    Truly the man is deluded and is in need of prayer.

  50. August_West says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    Mr Spencer,

    As you know the canonical atheist argument against Islam takes the basic form that:

    all religions are bad, but Islam is much worse.

    They get it half right.

    Whether we like it or not, we are all together in the House of War – Atheists, Agnostics, Druids, Buddhists, Gays, Catholics, Jews etc.

    Despite the fact that Dawkins is half right, he is still a better ally than say the Pope. The Pope does not seem to take the position that Islam worse at all.

  51. R.C. says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 9:13 pm

    Biblical Christians–know the Bible, which is God himself–is to be taken literally. Those who do not–are not Biblical Christians–these have no salvation.

    • R.C. says

      Oct 18, 2015 at 9:16 pm

      There are no toxic passages in the Bible. God has never advocated murder, kidnap, rape, Sodomy, anti-Semitism. The Qur’an advocates all of these and much more evil besides.

  52. Foolster41 says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 11:46 pm

    Charles R.L. Power:

    “Christians, of course, make the circular argument that because Christianity teaches people to do good, then people who do evil can’t possibly be Christians.”
    If I say “I’m a Jew that eats pork” I guess I can say I’m anything even if it makes no sense, because that’s circular. I’m a Aqthiest who believes in God. I’m a muslim who doesn’t believe in the existence of Allah.

    So then, anyone can claim to be anything and has to be accepted as that, and then all in the group are forever responsible for their actions, because to deny them being part of your group and pointing out how they don’t acutally follow the teachings they say they do is circular! Pretty handy tool for attacking and smearing people! It’s been working for radical Christian haters for the last 50 years!

    Complete and utter nonsense.
    IN. YOUR WORLDVIEW. WORDS. HAVE. NO. MEANING.

    • Charles R.L. Power says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 2:08 pm

      I’m saying that people who go to Christian church every Sunday, get married in Christian church, have their children baptized and confirmed as Christians, should probably be called Christians. They may not be good Christians but a rational person should at least concede that Christian teachings fail to prevent evil and cruelty. Most of the perpetrators of the Holocaust defined themselves as Christians. If Christianity were good for anything, its teachings would have prevented them from allowing any such thing to happen.

      You really think no Jew has ever eaten pork? Or that eating pork transforms one into a Gentile?

      I will certainly concede that it is possible to consider Christian murderers of innocents bad Christians, given standard Christian teachings. It is not so easy to consider Muslim murderers of innocents bad Muslims. The problem is that one can murder innocents and still be an excellent Muslim.

      • Foolster41 says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 7:02 pm

        R L Powers says: ” will certainly concede that it is possible to consider Christian murderers of innocents bad Christians, given standard Christian teachings. It is not so easy to consider Muslim murderers of innocents bad Muslims. The problem is that one can murder innocents and still be an excellent Muslim.”

        Exactly! That was my point! Hitler was not in any way a good Christian. A good (or I prefer the word sincere) Christian follows the teaching of Christ. He was a very bad/insincere one since he didn’t follow any of the tenets of the faith and disobeyed them (hate, murder, envy, and pride for starters).

        So to present Hitler and the Nazis in any sort of way as devout Christians, as a a problem and modern burden on Christians (making a tu quo que comparison between Islam and Christianity), as you initially did is ludicrous! Your concession though makes the proper distinction between Islam and Christianity, and so I thank you for your admitting you were wrong.

        I am fairly sensitive about this issue, because I have seen this same attack time and time again from atheists with a chip on their shoulder (I remember one heated debate on the FrontPageMag comment section) who make this argument and don’t back down, insisting that Hitler is a example of badness in Christianity while making the bold claim that it doesn’t matter if Hitler actually obeyed Christianity or not, that he said he was Christian is enough!

      • Foolster41 says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 7:13 pm

        I missed this, perhaps I complimented you too soon.

        ” If Christianity were good for anything, its teachings would have prevented them from allowing any such thing to happen.”

        Utter. Nonsense. So because there’s nothing magic in the belief that forces someone who says they are Christian to choose to disobey parts (or all of it) and still claim to follow it, that’s Christianity’s fault?

        So I suppose a doctor who murders people is a reflection on the whole of medical practice and the hypcratic oath, since even though he claimed to follow the Hippocratic oath, there was nothing to stop him from ignoring or twisting it to do as he pleases!

        it doesn’t matter HOW it is written people will come up with excuses. “Thou shall not murder” is pretty clear.

        This statement doesn’t jive at all with your concession. Either A.)Christianity was being horribly twisted or ignored by the Nazis when they claimed to be Christians and they did as they did (and thus what they did had NOTHING to do with Christianity), or B.) there was no conflict between Nazism and Christianity. Your concession allows for A, this quote points to B. You can’t have it both ways.

        “Logic!” said the Professor half to himself. “Why don’t they teach logic at these schools?” – C. S.Lewis.The Chronicles of Narnia.

        • Charles R.L. Power says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 2:25 am

          Of course Nazism and Christianity are not the same thing. However:

          There is something wrong with a set of moral teachings which can be nominally embraced by so many people who at least passively consented,, with some enthusiasm, in such a morally repulsive episode as the Holocaust. As I already wrote, I’m not talking just about a few crazy Nazis. I’m talking about the bulk of the populations of Germany and Austria, and truth be told, large numbers in other nations, even victims of the Nazis such as Poland. (Look up Jedwabne and especially Kielce.) My point is just that Christians should not pretend that their religion is the source of good conduct. It is perfectly possible to conduct oneself decently without religion, or to conduct oneself horribly with religion. Enormous numbers of people who participated in the rituals of Christianity and insisted on the validity of its moral teachings participated, to some degree or another, in the Holocaust. Not to mention the openly religion-motivated slaughters and murders which, for Christianity, are fortunately almost all in the past. (These include Christians murdering each other, which happened not so long ago in Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia.)

          Christians have been particularly insane about meaningless doctrinal distinction. Constantinople is now Istanbul largely due to a disagreement over whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father, whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean. (Since the three persons of the Trinity are supposed to be coeternal, it really makes no sense at all that one would “proceed from” one or both of the others. But I digress.)

          Anyhow, however blameless “true” Christian doctrine may be for inspiring evil, the fact is that Christians embrace the Old as well as the New Testament, and there’s no end of horror to be found in the Old Testament / Jewish Bible, much of it ordered by God. Christians like to say silly things like how the “new covenant” replaces the “old coverant,” but Jesus specifically denied this, as I mentioned in a previous message.

        • Jeremiah says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 11:29 pm

          You are correct. A Christian is somebody who reads the Bible. There are very few Christians. A Christian cannot support Hitler and no Christians did. Hitler was opposed by Christians. However, the masses, who did not read the Bible, wanted the promise of heaven on earth that Hitler said he would deliver. Those people are always voting for promises like that. They are easily manipulated and some leaders are great manipulators. It will be difficult to overcome the promises of Sanders, Clinton and other Democrats. The formula for them is to make promises and then break them. They are anti Constitution and anti American. Christians like loyalty and patriotism. Those who don’t read the Bible like eating the forbidden fruit instead, regardless of the consequences.

      • Jeremiah says

        Oct 20, 2015 at 11:18 pm

        Some good considerations.

        You cannot be a Christian if you do not read the Bible. You cannot be a Muslim if you do not read the Koran. The reading of the Bible encourages you to love Muslims while the reading of the Koran commands you to kill Christians. The moment a Christian starts reading the Bible, he will start improving himself every day. The moment a Muslim starts reading the Koran, he will either throw up or blow up . . . so strong is the revulsion. Only those who sell their soul to Satan can handle the Koran. Anybody who thinks that this comment is over the top has not yet read the Koran.

        • Charles R.L. Power says

          Oct 21, 2015 at 4:01 am

          You can’t be a good Christian without reading hte Bible? Do you understand how recently it became possible for an ordinary person to access the Bible? Do you understand that in the time of Jesus there was no Bible because the canon had not yet been defined?

          Of course many Christians “read the Bible” by dipping into it or rereading favorite parts endlessly. What bothers me is that practically no Christians — if anyone out there is an exception, please speak up! — systematically read the Bible. Someone thought it was weird to read the books in the order in which they are commonly printed, though I think the order in the Christian Bible is pretty sensible. (The Tanach, consisting of the books Christians call the Old Testament, is less sensibly arranged due to a rather ridiculous distinction among the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.) I say read in any order you want, but read al of it. I can’t guarantee that this will cure you of Christianity, but I can’t say it won’t.

  53. Foolster41 says

    Oct 18, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    Remind me to never ask Charles R L Powers for anything. If I ask for a fish he might give me a serpent. After all, the serpent TOLD him he was a fish, so he needs to accept that!

    I found Charles R.L. Power’s theme song:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

    “Up is down, black is white and short is wrong… what you have to understand is everything you know is wrong!”

  54. steve says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 1:58 am

    Is it possible for people to believe in taking each day as it comes without support from some ideology, religion, their mother, their pet dog, the moon, or whatever? It will always be a question for debate. That is not to say i do not have faith in my religion. I do. However, I believe dawkins is wrong if he believes the bible to be as toxic as the koran. A comparison of christianity to islam by using the bible versus the koran is tough because the bible of christianity really begins with the new testament using the old testament as historical reference. Only in the old testament can a blow by blow account equate to some extent with the violence of islam and the koran but seldom is it on the same scale consistently. But comparing practices and ways from the old testament bible of over 2,000 years ago to those of the islam of the 7th century or essentially the islam of today is misleading.The new testament preaches forgiveness despite its abuses and diversions by some leaders illustrated by periods such as the inquisition and the medici popes. The christian bible of the new testament also had the reformation and renaissance and being centrally led has made it easier for people to adhere to its teachings. Islamists, on the other hand, are subject to following the whims and persuasions of every new radical imam on the corner who claims to have the latest jihad or sharia or ak47 for that matter. This is how it has been with islam since the 7th century. True christianity of the new testament is always about prayer and forgiveness and generally trying to live and let live in peace despite all the materialism and sinfulness of the world. Islamism has set out time and again to dominate the world and make everyone in it submit. This is not to say christians have not gone to war but generally turning the other cheek and long suffering are valued practices and it is something many christians try to follow. The koran from a practical point of view with all its calls to violence is much more of a toxic threat to this world. Even if dawkins is trying to say that the bible and koran are both equally toxic to the mind, it is still not true in an equal way since radical islamism is certainly much more about mind control than orthodox christianity at least to the point of promoting terrorism. I think really this toxicity argument of his is more about dawkins argument for atheism made in a cold scientific approach of someone who has never experienced god and so he believes any religion or cult concerning god is equally toxic to the mind. Unfortunately, atheists, as well as scientists, don’t know something until it is discovered. Others, lucky or simply by random chance, have experienced things science can’t explain. As a christian i can’t prove god exists but i feel god and i can’t remember the last time the new testament made me want to go out and toxically blow up a world trade center!

    • deja vu says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 3:12 am

      Steve: But comparing practices and ways from the old testament bible of over 2,000 years ago

      Er, more like 3500 years ago! But you’re right, Islam is a comparative johnny-come-lately, a counterfeit theocratic ideology if ever there was one. As we know, nobody counterfeits something that is not valuable, which gives the lie to those who dismiss the Bible as ‘fairy tales’. As an aside, it’s amusing to imagine a Faculty of Fairytales at noted Universities, perhaps with distinguished Professors of Mythical Narratives, or Lecturers in Peter Pan Fantasies.

      More seriously, I’ve yet to find an atheist who would be prepared to be tortured to death for defending the non-existence of God, or one who accepts that atheism is also based on faith – faith that the metaphysical/spiritual does not exist. Reducing mankind to molecules and atoms with no purpose other than to reproduce and after that, to obtain oblivion, is an unattractive prospect indeed.

  55. Jeremiah says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 5:25 am

    There is a basic misunderstanding or a deliberate misinterpretation of the Bible in quoting “violent” passages.

    The Bible does not require Christians or Jews to kill anybody today as does Islam.

    The Bible does record the killing of many peoples and armies as a result of their sin. The Bible focuses on the Israelis who bear the brunt of such punishment because they are worthy of discipline, being God’s people. Military conquest is used like Fire and Brimstone in Sodom and Gomorrah or as the deluge in the Flood. God shows his displeasure to the people who follow gods which involve the sacrifice of children and sexual immorality. Any army was used for this purpose, including the Israelite armies.

    What God is attempting to do is to bring nations back to a loving relationship while rooting out anything that is the opposite of his commandments of love as summarized in the Ten Commandments. Jesus then confirms that there was never an order to kill, maim or enslave through His example and through his interpretation of the Old Testament.

    The passages that Richard Dawkins and others refer to are neither metaphorical nor allegorical. These passages are an historical record of God’s care for people, whether they are Jewish or otherwise. The instructional value of these passages lies in understanding God’s judgement as opposed to man’s judgement.

    It is a mistake to suggest that there is even the faintest similarity between the history of the Bible and the justification for men to take the lives of others summarily as commanded in the Koran. The Bible is interpreted to love even one’s enemy and to leave judgement to God. This is in stark contrast to the Koran and the example of Mohammad.

    Richard Dawkins is simply driving political correctness as best as he can.

    • voegelinian says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 12:05 pm

      “The passages that Richard Dawkins and others refer to are neither metaphorical nor allegorical. These passages are an historical record of God’s care for people…”

      Nevertheless, Patristic Christians invariably treated the Old Testament as a vast tapestry of allegorical & anagogical teachings, not as history. Ironically, it is modern man (both Christians and post-Christian) who has a neurotic need to regard truth as literalistic — either to be accepted as such (by modern evagelicals) or rejected as such (modern secularists). Modern man, to the extent that he has lost touch with his medieval and classical heritages, seems incapable of appreciating the poetry, mythology, and music of religion. Thankfully, the project of Modernity — to create a race of Modern Men and destroy the Past — continues to fail.

  56. Marty says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 5:37 am

    Dawkins is highly intelligent & a straight talker.
    There have been times & places where Christians have chosen unpleasant Biblical passages &
    acted literally on them.
    However, Christianity is an evolving religion & since the Late Middle Ages, only extreme Protestants
    see the Bible as literally, rather than symbolically, true.
    Bible scholarship has also helped to shape a more gentle religion.
    Some Churches, notably the Catholic Church have been reluctant to authorise serious research
    (eg Dead Sea Scrolls scandal).
    Nevertheless, today Christianity is mainly a positive & humane religion, like Reformed Judaism
    or Orthodox Judaism, but not Ultra Orthodox.
    In contrast the ideology of Islam has not changed its brutal nature in 1,400 years & has been armed
    by the West with modern weaponry which is being turned against us & will result in events that
    make 9/11 look like a minor foretaste of things to come.

    • Jeremiah says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 5:46 am

      You are mistaken on two counts. The first count is that God’s people were never authorized to kill for the sake of a religious or political motive but only to carry out the judgement of God. There is no literal command or otherwise to contradict the Ten Commandments.

      The second mistake is that fundamental Protestants are the warmongers where as no Protestant advocates war. Wars in the name of the Papacy however were common and killed 20 million Christians between 600 and 1600 AD. That was not done on the basis of the Bible because during that time only Christians read the Bible; not the Papacy. Catholics have been prohibited from reading the Bible until quite recently.

      It helps to be familiar with history when one gives instruction on history.

      • voegelinian says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 11:22 am

        “The first count is that God’s people were never authorized to kill for the sake of a religious or political motive but only to carry out the judgement of God. ”

        That’s a distinction without a difference, unless you know what God’s judgement is. Unfortunately, Western history is filled with differing human interpretations of that knowledge.

      • Daniel says

        Oct 19, 2015 at 12:13 pm

        Jeremiah, you said “The first count is that God’s people were never authorized to kill for the sake of a religious or political motive but only to carry out the judgement of God. There is no literal command or otherwise to contradict the Ten Commandments.”

        The fact that god commanded his chosen people to kill is actually a religious and political movement, much like what takes place today, only without the so called direction of god, unless you are a literal Quran believer, in which it apparently applies to today’s world. When the Israelite’s followed the command of god; “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves” (31:14-18).

        In keeping the female virgins alive, your statement that this was a judgement of god is contradicting, in that your saying that the male child of a similar age suffered judgement, while the female child did not.

        The verse in reference simply implies the identical acts of what is actually taking place with ISIS. The young females are taken and used for breading, to bring forth large numbers of male children. This all takes place for god, religion, and politics. And lets not forget, the Muslim community is required to pay the 2.5% Zakat (the alms tax), this MUST be paid to be a Muslim.

        Interesting how money is attached to every single thing in this world, even god.

  57. K. says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 5:53 am

    The principle of abrogation applies to both books. It means that later passages supersede earlier ones in case any conflicts arise. The main difference between the Bible and the Quran is, that the Bible describes a development out of barbarism into a peaceful, civilized society. Whereas the Quran goes exactly the other way around. Earlier, more peaceful passages are abrogated for more and more militant ones. Muslims use this trick of cherry-picking when they do their taqiyya thing and the stupid unbeliever doesn’t know what follows in the book. Likewise on the other side, though. It doesn’t help that the USA seems to justify its death penalty with the earliest principle of justice mentioned in the Bible, while the whole remainder from the Ten Commandments onwards actually outrules it. Dawkins is very much correct saying both books are equally toxic, because it is so convenient to just take from them what fits your agenda, be it for good or evil. Christians could gain the upper hand in this though if they would only stop playing double standards and actually live the consequences themselves.

    • Jeremiah says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 5:58 am

      Richard Dawkins is incorrect.

      There is a basic misunderstanding or a deliberate misinterpretation of the Bible in quoting “violent” passages.

      The Bible does not require Christians or Jews to kill anybody today as does Islam.

      The Bible does record the killing of many peoples and armies as a result of their sin. The Bible focuses on the Israelis who bear the brunt of such punishment because they are worthy of discipline, being God’s people. Military conquest is used like Fire and Brimstone in Sodom and Gomorrah or as the deluge in the Flood. God shows his displeasure to the people who follow gods which involve the sacrifice of children and sexual immorality. Any army was used for this purpose, including the Israelite armies.

      What God is attempting to do is to bring nations back to a loving relationship while rooting out anything that is the opposite of his commandments of love as summarized in the Ten Commandments. Jesus then confirms that there was never an order to kill, maim or enslave through His example and through his interpretation of the Old Testament.

      The passages that Richard Dawkins and others refer to are neither metaphorical nor allegorical. These passages are an historical record of God’s care for people, whether they are Jewish or otherwise. The instructional value of these passages lies in understanding God’s judgement as opposed to man’s judgement.

      It is a mistake to suggest that there is even the faintest similarity between the history of the Bible and the justification for men to take the lives of others summarily as commanded in the Koran. The Bible is interpreted to love even one’s enemy and to leave judgement to God. This is in stark contrast to the Koran and the example of Mohammad.

      Richard Dawkins is simply driving political correctness as best as he can.

    • Mo says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm

      @ K.

      “The principle of abrogation applies to both books. It means that later passages supersede earlier ones in case any conflicts arise.”

      Nonsense. There’s no such teaching in the Bible. There are principles like descriptive versus prescriptive passages. There are principles such as commands given to certain people at a certain time for a certain purpose. There are principles such as God’s judgment of sin.

      But that’s entirely different than the Koran’s tossing things out on a whim, with no explanation as to why.

      “The main difference between the Bible and the Quran is, that the Bible describes a development out of barbarism into a peaceful, civilized society. ”

      Where on earth are you getting these ideas? The main different between the Bible and Quran is the Bible is God’s narrative of world history and plan for salvation, while the Quran is a cobbled together bunch of incoherent rantings about Allah’s hatred for unbelievers. There’s not even any narrative.

      (But you’d know that if you’d actually READ both of them in their entirety and sat down to compare them.)

      “Likewise on the other side, though. ”

      Moral equivalency in 3… 2… 1…

      “It doesn’t help that the USA seems to justify its death penalty with the earliest principle of justice mentioned in the Bible, while the whole remainder from the Ten Commandments onwards actually outrules it. ”

      More ignorant falsehoods. Can you show me where “the whole remainder from the Ten Commandments onwards actually outrules” the death penalty?

      Of course you cannot, since it does not exist. The Bible nowhere says, “Thou shalt not kill”. It says, you should not MURDER, which is the unlawful taking of innocent HUMAN life. That’s why the death penalty is not prohibited. That’s why killing animals is not prohibited. That’s why abortion is prohibited.

      Please do not spout your ignorance here, okay? I don’t have time to spend on this. But I have to, because people who don’t claim to have read the Bible or the Quran may take your word as being accurate.

      “Dawkins is very much correct saying both books are equally toxic, ”

      I’d bet anything you’ve never read either the Bible or the Koran. If you had, you would not be saying such demonstrably false things.

      • Jeremiah says

        Oct 20, 2015 at 11:40 pm

        The Bible is consistent to those who read it. The Bible describes God’s love in trying to discipline people into loving one another. That discipline occurs in a number of ways. Banishment from Eden, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Prophetic warnings, encouragement to great courage and wars. The goal is always the same, namely to return to the Ten Commandments. The discipline was to the Jews first and to the Gentiles later. Jews bore the brunt of that discipline to the point that Habakkuk asks why do the unjust punish the just? Human being keep returning to basic appetites such as sacrificing children and sexual immorality.Those two practices are a barometer of how far we have departed from God’s laws. So then we see God demanding that there be a punishment. That punishment is for that time and that situation only. It is God’s judgement and not man’s judgement. There is never a command to continue to slaughter indiscriminately in the Bible. When the punishment is completed, there is forgiveness and an opportunity to start again.

        All of this is an antithesis of Islam.

  58. dumbledoresarmy says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 7:49 am

    I would encourage those who are unfamiliar with the Bible to get, and read, Tom Cahill’s book “The Gifts of the Jews”.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/july98/cahill_7-23.html

    ‘ANCESTRAL APPRECIATION’

    It focuses specifically on the TaNaKh, and in particular, on Genesis and Exodus; the material that most atheists love to hate and deride.

    And what emerges is a clear sense of just how radically *revolutionary* the Hebrew scriptures actually are, when viewed in the context of the worldviews that obtained a/ during the time when the events described are generally believed to have happened AND ALSO b/ during the time/s when the accounts were put into their final written form.

    The very critiques that are usually directed at the Hebrew scriptures , at the Bible, arise from a set of assumptions that *would never have existed* if the House of Israel had never existed and if the Hebrew scriptures had never been written.

    Anyone who thinks that if there had been no Jews, no Israel, no Bible, ‘the West’ would have developed much as it has done, and we would all be living in lovely technologically-advanced – but *pagan* societies – needs to think again.

    For more on what I personally think of as “The Sinai Revolution”, see *this* article, by one Joshua A Berman – “God’s Alliance With Man”.

    http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=131

    Excerpt:

    “…Whereas much scholarly discussion has focused on the idea of the people of Israel as a collective, and the covenant referring to an entire nation as such enjoined in a covenantal bond with God, I will argue in what follows that within the covenantal narratives human kingship is bestowed not only upon the entire Israelite polity, but upon each individual member of that polity as well.

    “God is a king who enters into a treaty not only with the Jewish people as a lesser king, but with each individual Jew, subordinate yet possessing honor and standing in his own right.

    “The implications of this claim- that subordinate kingship devolves upon the individual no less than the people-may extend far beyond the scholarly debates.

    “The idea of covenant may in fact be indicative of a profound revolution which biblical thinking represented in the ancient world, a revolution which is with us to this day..”.

    (Read the lot, I found it very interesting).

    I would recommend, together with Cahill and Berman, a reading of those portions of Auerbach’s “Mimesis” where he draws out the contrast between the characters of Homer and the people we meet in the Hebrew Bible. Because there *is* a contrast; and only a reader who pays attention is able to understand just how deep the fault-line runs, between the worldview that produces the one type of literature, and the worldview that produces the other.

    And, finally, David Bentley Hart’s “Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies”. See Part Three – “Revolution: The Christian Invention of the Human”, in particular the chapters entitled “A Glorious Sadness” and “The Face of the Faceless”. If one has read and understood Cahill’s book one sees clearly, reading Hart, that the ‘Christian’ revolution in understanding of what it was to be human simply could not have happened and would not have happened without the prior ‘Sinai revolution’.

    There is some further interesting testimony from a person reared in South Asia within the Hindu culture of India. So he has come to Christianity from outside, from the world that Cahill describes as “the world of the wheel”. His name is Vishal Mangalwadi and he has written a book addressed to the heirs of Western Christendom, entitled “The Book that Made Your World”. that ‘Book’ being…the Bible.

    What all of these writers give us is the ‘big picture’. And it’s amazing.

    • voegelinian says

      Oct 19, 2015 at 11:33 am

      “…the contrast between the characters of Homer and the people we meet in the Hebrew Bible. Because there *is* a contrast; and only a reader who pays attention is able to understand just how deep the fault-line runs, between the worldview that produces the one type of literature, and the worldview that produces the other.”

      The achievement of Christendom was to unite both worlds and bridge that divide. The problem of (Western — what other type is there?) modernity is the protracted corrosion of that bridge, held up no longer by a consciously organic.culture but by mechanical, memetic memory surviving almost automatically, whereby material progress and success is holding up the bridge, and the human cultural infrastructure is increasingly becoming a hollow shell, running stupendously on empty (a “fabulous invald”).

      • somehistory says

        Oct 20, 2015 at 11:41 am

        I do believe that those who don’t appreciate the Bible and the Laws and Principles laid down so long ago, have never really read it with the desire to understand…even if they don’t want to believe in a Creator God.

        Jesus came from a nation that was based on Love and Law. Love for God and the Law He gave them. From where would a Man like Christ have come if there had been no Law and no nation of Israel?
        And looking solely at the words He spoke…to love others as we love ourselves, to treat others as we wish to be treated, to be faithful to contracts…marriage…to take care of one’s children, to obey the laws of the land in which we live…Caesar’s things to Caesar..
        Most governments that have Christians as citizens appreciate the law-abiding aspect even if they hate Christianity and won’t admit from where the attitude of obedience originates. And the average person depends on things such as the admonition of the Good Samaritan account.
        So much so that the “Golden Rule” is offered up, even by people who do not know Christ, as a rule by which to live.
        Mankind would be so much in Spiritual poverty if not for the Bible and the nation of Israel and for Christ Jesus. There would not be much humanity among the tribes of people, not much freedom. if any. Thankfully, God did not leave us without a Witness of His goodness.

        • Joseph says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 11:57 am

          somehistory
          Well said, man is born with a void in his heart that only God can fill. Many people walk this Earth feeling empty, that something is missing, Many do not find it for their heart is hard. Many find it but deny it for the like darkness better and a few find it an embrace it. (taken from the parable of the sower and the seeds)

        • kay says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 11:17 pm

          Re: “man is born with a void in his heart that only God can fill….”
          _______________________________

          Yeah, well there are different ones. Gods I mean. Not to mention goddesses.
          At this point I’m pretty much hoping for Shiva and Kali to beat up on Mohammed’s crew.
          Found this KL Ray chant for Lord Shiva by accident half an hour back. Shared it out to three groups of seventy thousand people total.

          Kristin Luna Ray – Shankara Shiva
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTsSxn-3WPI

          Actually I’m thinking more along the lines of somebody Indo-European, a high level European war god. Thor is probably busy or I’d try to figure out some way to ask for His help too. The time is past for Christian pacifism.

          “In Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning “thunder”).

          “Ultimately stemming from Proto-Indo-European religion, Thor is a prominently mentioned god throughout the recorded history of the Germanic peoples, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania, to the tribal expansions of the Migration Period, to his high popularity during the Viking Age, when, in the face of the process of the Christianization of Scandinavia, emblems of his hammer, Mjöllnir, were worn in defiance and Norse pagan personal names containing the name of the god bear witness to his popularity. Into the modern period, Thor continued to be acknowledged in rural folklore throughout Germanic regions. Thor is frequently referenced in place names, the day of the week Thursday (“Thor’s day”) bears his name, and names stemming from the pagan period containing his own continue to be used today.”

          Thor & Jane Scene – ‘Thor Tells Jane The Nine Realms’
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIBrY_hQAI4

          Asgardians VS Frost Giants
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqjKCAiMfGs

          Patrick Doyle – THOR (2011) – Soundtrack Suite

        • somehistory says

          Oct 20, 2015 at 10:29 pm

          Thank you, Joseph. We were, indeed, created by God with a need for Him only He can fill. He knows we need Him, His Love and direction and help. He offers it freely. It is truly a shame that so many say to Him, “no. I don’t believe and I don’t need You.”

    • somehistory says

      Oct 20, 2015 at 11:30 am

      D,
      Two thumbs up because two thumbs are the only ones over which I have any control 🙂

  59. Marvin Clay says

    Oct 19, 2015 at 10:22 pm

    To choose between good and evil sounds simple enough…how’s that worked so far with mankind…the fact that we chose to sort through a mixture of good and evil is the problem…man’s choice to teach himself is part of the learning process…a period of allotted time has nearly passed for this present age of man… man’s higher education has not stopped any new evil nor caused any new evil…human nature is learned and practiced from birth onward…it is entirely hostile to what we need to meet our full potential…good and evil can be termed right and wrong or what works and does not work…we will not be turned loose on the virtually endless universe unless we demonstrate some willingness to be so much more teachable …Imagine if you will…two supernatural beings so far beyond comparison to anything we understand…they have it all…they want to share it…they decide to reproduce…they begin with us…they make us like them…only on a much lower level for now…but with the potential to become one of them…would this inspire us to see ourselves differently than with our present concepts…provided we want to be more than this.

    • Jeremiah says

      Oct 20, 2015 at 11:50 pm

      The fear of God is the beginning of knowledge, not a socialist lecturer at a university. When you sincerely read the scriptures, you will do wonderful things and bear much fruit. The People of the Book are the ones who are awarded Nobel prizes.

  60. Evolution says

    Oct 20, 2015 at 10:39 am

    There are some dark passages in the Old Testament.
    That’s why people came up with the New Testament.
    How much hatred and death does the New Testament preach ?

    • Jeremiah says

      Oct 20, 2015 at 11:59 pm

      Let not your heart be troubled by the Old Testament. The People of the Book bear much fruit. Jesus believed in the authority of the Old Testament and explained how the scriptures reflect God’s care throughout the ages. There had to be a flood because man was destroying himself. The creation would have ended there and then. From time to time, communities had to be exterminated for the same reason – so that we could live. The Jews bore the brunt of this discipline and as a result we have a small core of the world’s population that produces most of the inventions, Nobel Prizes, etc. However, there was always the intention that the world would end as a result of child sacrifice, sexual immorality, injustice, subjugation of women, insane punishments and the abuses normally practiced when the Bible is no longer consulted. Those who are sincere will open their eyes and see that Christianity is Love and everything else is hypocrisy.

  61. Mena says

    Dec 19, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Sad, what use is a religion if followers are full of hate for each other. Maybe before becoming a Christian or a Muslim we should learn to become human beings first and not see each other through the eyes of religion, race, hate, or prejudice but see each other as fellow human beings created by the same creator.

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