Allah’s Theological Jihad against Christianity – A Case of Two Extremes
Continued from Part 1, An Epistemological Malady
The first problem for a Christian who affirms that Muslims worship the same God, is that such a Christian has to contend with the Koran, which Muslims believe to be the unalterable, eternal words of God, revealed to Muhammad alone, which pre-existed in heaven before all eternity.
Allah — in the Koran — explicitly condemns the foundational truths of the Christian Way, calls Christians “blasphemers” and “deluded”, and pronounces curses on Christians (emphasis added):
The similitude of Isa [Jesus] before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”: And he was. (Sura 3:59)
Say not “Trinity”: desist: It will be better for you: For God is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. . . . (Sura 4:173)
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the Son of Mary. (Sura 5:19)
They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary . . .” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them (Sura 5:75,78)
Christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Sura 5:78)
The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Sura 9:30)
In fact, they never killed him [Jesus], they never crucified him — they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. (Sura 4:157)
Just to recap the above, the Koran — Allah, that is — insists:
- Jesus is like Adam, mere man created from dust. [1]
- God is too exalted to have a son.
- Christians are blasphemers for confessing Jesus Christ as Son of God.
- Christians are blasphemers for confessing the Holy Trinity.
- Because Christians are blasphemers, a “grievous penalty” will befall them.
- Christians are “deluded away from truth” when they confess Jesus Christ as Son of God.
- Because Christians are blasphemers and deluded away from the truth, “God’s curse be upon them.”
Oh, and furthermore, Allah insists that Jesus was never crucified. [2]
All this condemnation of Christian dogma and calling down curses upon Christians comes forth in supposed direct — word-for-word literal — revelations from the True God. [3]
Now, if Muslims and Christians worship the same God, then Allah = God. Yet Allah explicitly condemns Christian dogma, curses Christians and denies historical fact.
What can this possibly mean? How do we respond to this?
The first response is we need to respect the claims Islam makes about Allah, Muhammad, and the Koran. That is, we need to consider the implications of what Allah reveals to Muhammad through the Koran.
Because it is Allah speaking in and through the Koran, therefore Christian apologists for the Same God position cannot hide behind the relativistic, academic “different conceptions of God” curtain. That is ducking the question. Who is the “man behind the curtain?” Who is the BEING behind the revelation which makes those pronouncements? This is the dilemma of the Same God position. If the Koran is a revealed text, who is the WHO behind the text?
The second problem for a Christian who affirms the Same God position happens to be Jesus’ own words and the New Testament witness, which are quite extreme in their own right.
In juxtaposition to Allah’s condemnation of foundational Christian dogmas, let us first choose an example from the Gospels. I have in mind Jesus’ dialogue with the Jews in John’s Gospel account, in chapter 8. The entire passage is too long to include here, but in summary, Jesus rebukes and challenges the Pharisees and even the Jews who followed him, trying to bring them to faith and repentance:
Jesus said to them… “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” (vv 43-47, NKJV)
The discussion gets progressively more heated, with the Jews accusing Jesus of having a demon, and of bearing witness of himself. To which Jesus responds with one of the most incredible statements ever uttered in any language:
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (vv. 54-58, NKJV)
The “I AM” statement in Greek, “Ego Eimi”, is the translation of the words by which God revealed Himself to Moses, “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you” (Ex 3:14). So by making this statement, Jesus was equating himself with the LORD, YHWH, “He Who IS.” [4]
This was the ultimate blasphemy for the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. No wonder, as John recounts, that after Jesus spoke this, “They took up stones to throw at him” (v.59).
Jesus makes this “I AM” statement twenty-four times in John’s Gospel (forty-five, if you count the instances where the emphatic “Ego” is not included but merely implied with the “Eimi”).
Based on these brief examples alone, Christianity and Islam cannot both be from the same source, which is what the Same God Question ultimately boils down to. If we treat each truth claim with respect, that each faith springs from a self-revelation of God, then it is clear the Allah of Islam is directly, and in a specific, vigorous manner, opposed to the revelation from the Christian God. And Jesus’ own emphatic testimony about himself excludes any alternate revelation concerning the nature of God.
Put another way, Allah’s self-revelation through Muhammad reveals him as completely opposed to the Christian God’s self-revelation through the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Much of Allah’s purpose in revealing certain specific verses to Muhammad was clearly to correct (what he saw as) the errors of the Christians. Allah is so vehement in these condemnations of Christian dogma that it amounts to what I term a “Theological Jihad.”
The implications for Christians are set forth with a holy intensity by the Evangelist John in his epistles. Confessing Jesus Christ is the litmus test for who is of God and who is not. John does not give Christians any “wiggle room” on this point:
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also… (1 JN 2:22-23)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 JN 4:1-3)
My purpose in citing these passages is to show the total commitment to Jesus Christ which John mandates for Christians. [5]
But this is much more than an act of will, this “commitment.” In John’s Gospel and letters, and for Christians ever since the first days of the Church, it is a question of Being, of transformation, of entering into a new life, having already died to this life. Paul uses the same language describing baptism in his letter to the Romans. It is a mystical existence in Jesus even while struggling through this world. Once a Christian begins to “Be,” to “abide,”, to exist in this New Life, they cannot deny it. It is reality, a Divine Reality which proceeds from the Father; it is new life in Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As Peter puts it in his catholic epistle, we are become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).
So, the “Same God Question” asks, can the God who freely gives this New Life through Jesus also be the Allah who commands the opposite through Muhammad?
Those who take the “Same God” position are, I believe, abstracting the question, and divorcing it from the radically different Sources behind the Islamic and Christian revelations. The Same God Question cannot properly be reduced to an abstract, theoretical, conceptual analysis, but rather deserves to be considered as an ontological, super-essential discernment of two diametrically opposed Sources.
In a similar way to John’s exclusivist writings, the Koranic repudiations of Christian dogma are not abstract, theological points. They too are foundational, activating principles in Islamic faith, prayer and practice. Let us take one example, which the faithful Muslim prays at least seventeen times a day, thousands of times a year:
…Guide us in the straight path, the path of those whom Thou hast blessed, not of those against whom Thou art wrathful, nor of those who are astray. (Sura 1:7)
Offered as a prayer to “the Master of the Day of Doom,” this first sura of the Koran, called al-Fatihah, ‘The Opening’, refers specifically in this its final verse to the Christians and the Jews. In traditional Islamic teaching, Islam alone is “the straight path,” whereas:
“The two paths He described here are both misguided,” and that those “two paths are the paths of the Christians and Jews, a fact that the believer should beware of so that he avoids them. The path of the believers is knowledge of the truth and abiding by it. In comparison, the Jews abandoned practicing the religion, while the Christians lost the true knowledge. This is why ‘anger’ descended upon the Jews, while being described as ‘led astray’ is more appropriate of the Christians.” (Classic Koranic commentator Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Koran 1:7, Vol 1, p 87.)
This is the mainstream Islamic view, held to by most Muslim jurists, though not all Muslims realize whom they are condemning when they pray ‘The Opening’. But taken in context with the other Koranic verses cited above, it is clear that in the Islamic view, Jews and Christians alike are under Allah’s judgment and wrath.
This wouldn’t be of too much immediate existential concern to us if the differences between Islam and Christianity merely constituted theological disagreement, an abstract spiritual debate over origins and eschatology, or even over eternal life and eternal damnation. Apologists make their cases, the faithful persevere, converts are won, apostates are lost, life goes on.
However, because the Koran contains not merely “foundational, activating principles,” as I term them above, but explicit commandments, exhortations and obligations to commit certain actions against non-believers, by which the faithful Muslim proves his loyalty and obedience to Allah, therefore the Same God Question is indeed an immediate, existential concern to us.
This is what we will look at in our next installment:
Part 3: ‘By their fruits you shall know them…‘ — Practical implications of the Same God Question.
NOTES:
[1] — Granted, there is a verse in the Koran where Allah speaks of Isa as being a word and spirit from him: “The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was Allah’s word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from him” (Sura 4:171). Gregory Palamas and John of Damascus both keyed on this in their debates with their Muslim adversaries. However, it is clear from Sura 3:79 and 5:78 that Allah believes Isa [Jesus] to be a created being. And after all, he should know, if he is the creator god!
[2] — It is interesting that Allah goes to such lengths to condemn Christian teaching, even denying the historical fact of Jesus’ crucifixion, which was written about not merely by the authors of the gospels and the New Testament letters, but also by 1st century Jewish and Roman historians like Josephus, Thallus and Tacitus, who drew on non-Christian contemporaneous sources to pen their accounts. Thallus was writing circa 50 A.D., before the commonly accepted date for the first gospels.
We know of Thallus through references to his writing in other ancient authors. From an article by William Lane Craig:
In his Chronicle from about the year 800 the Byzantine chronicler Georgius Syncellus cites a passage from a book, no longer extant, entitled A History of the World, which was written around 220 by the church father Julius Africanus, himself an able historian, who in turn reports that the Roman historian Thallus, who wrote on the history of the Ancient Near East, tries in the third book of his History, a work also no longer extant, to explain away the darkness at the time of Christ’s death as due to a solar eclipse…
…Now if Thallus wrote much later than the Gospels, none of this would be very exciting… On the other hand, if Thallus wrote his History prior to the Gospels, then his testimony becomes very interesting, indeed.
The dating of his work is uncertain, but most scholars date Thallus’ History to the mid-first century, that is, sometime around AD 50, just 20 years after Jesus’ crucifixion in AD 30. By contrast most scholars date Mark’s Gospel to around AD 66-70.
If this right, then either Thallus provides independent, extra-biblical attestation of the darkness at noon, thereby increasing the probability of its historicity, or else Thallus is responding to the passion story which was being told by Christians at his time, thereby attesting to the earliness of that tradition. In either case, Thallus is doubtless reacting to a Christian interpretation of the event, since he is trying to provide an alternative explanation of the event.
One could argue that, given his familiarity with Near Eastern affairs, Thallus would have just denied that the event occurred had he no knowledge of its happening. He thereby confirms the historicity of the darkness at noon. Perhaps, however, simply explaining it away was the easier reply (Thallus elsewhere explains portents naturalistically). In that case, what Thallus delivers is not independent confirmation of the Gospel accounts, but evidence of the primitiveness of the pre-Markan passion tradition, a conclusion of no small significance, since the earlier the tradition, the more historically credible it is.
Of course, if we on other grounds—such as the several lines of evidence suggesting that Acts was written prior to AD 60, and Luke’s Gospel prior to Acts, and Mark’s Gospel prior to Luke—reject the conventional dating of the Gospels, as I’m inclined to do, then we already have the Gospels themselves contemporaneous with Thallus. But on the conventional dating, it is rather stunning that the earlier reference to Jesus’ crucifixion comes not from one of the Christian Evangelists, but from a pagan Roman historian.
[3] — There is a surprising passage in the Koran where Allah directs Muhammad to consult the Jewish and Christian believers if he is in doubt. From an in-depth article by John Gilchrist at AnsweringIslam.org:
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book before thee. (Sura 10.94)
Gilchrist writes concerning this verse, and the Islamic doctrine of Tahrif, that the Jews and Christians had distorted the Scriptures:
Not only does this text yet again confirm that the Jews and the Christians of Muhammad’s time were indeed reading the true Scripture but it even commands Muhammad to consult them if he was in any doubt about what was coming to him in the Qur’an. If the original Torah and Gospel had been corrupted or replaced, would the Qur’an direct Muhammad to consult the readers of these Scriptures? […]
The result of these positive testimonies to the earlier scriptures in the Qur’an was that the early Muslims did not query the authenticity of the text of the Bible. The differences between them and the Jews and the Christians were ascribed to a perversion of the meaning of the scriptures by the latter but not of the text itself. This became known as tahri fi-manawi, a “corruption of the meaning” of the words. It was only much later that the doctrine of tahrifi-lafzi, “corruption of the text”, developed. In the early days, however, it was presumed that the Jews and Christians were only guilty of misrepresenting the meaning of their scriptures.
Since astute readers would no doubt be aware of these issues, I did want to note them. However, these considerations are beyond the scope of my focus in this series of articles, as it is quite clear from the Koran what Allah’s view is of foundational Christian dogmas.
[4] — “He Who IS” — The Orthodox Church uses this specific phrase in its divine services when offering glory to Jesus Christ. Depending on the translation into English, it varies between “He Who Is, Christ our God…” or “Christ our God, The Existing One…” with the concluding glorification, “is blessed, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages, Amen.” Furthermore, in the nimbus (halo) around Christ’s head in Orthodox iconography, the form of a cross is inscribed with the Greek letters denoting this same phrase, “He Who Is.” Thus this specific wording bonds our New Testament worship to He who revealed Himself first in the Old Covenant.
[5] — We see this commitment today, when Christians choose to die rather than deny Jesus Christ and convert to Islam, the most stirring example of this kind of faith being the 21 Coptic Martyrs beheaded by the Islamic State a year ago. The coda to their martyrdom was the forgiveness their grieving families offered for the Muslims who killed them. The mothers of the martyrs were praying for the conversion of the ISIS jihadis to Christ, that they would have, like Paul the Apostle, a “Damascus Road” experience.
_____
Ralph Sidway is an Orthodox Christian researcher and writer, and author of Facing Islam: What the Ancient Church has to say about the Religion of Muhammad. He operates the Facing Islam blog.
worldcitizen1919 says
The Crucifixion as Recorded in the New Testament is Correct
The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)
mortimer says
Many Muslims have studied the New Testaments and thereupon become deviant, non-orthodox Muslims. If their views were exposed in Saudi Arabia or in ISIS territory, such people would be tried, condemned and executed.
Angemon says
Huh, they do contradict one another. In the NT Jesus died on the cross, in the quran someone else was crucified instead of Jesus.
Either Jesus died on the cross or he didn’t. If he did, the quran is wrong and islam does not come from God. If he didn’t, then the Bible is wrong and Christianity does not come from God. They can’t both be right.
Jay Boo says
Muslims want it both ways
The claim to rely on previous scripture of the Bible until it conflicts with their con man Muhammad.
Bezelel says
Great little clip,thanks
ballotcode says
Those guys are great.
worldcitizen1919 says
His body died on the cross not His Spirit. That is quite simple. The Quran said they didn’t kill Christ meaning His Spirit which was born of God.
CogitoErgoSum says
Was His spirit simply FROM God or was it one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit? Did this spirit which entered the world in bodily form resurrect the physical body of Jesus from the dead and appear (in physical form) to those living in this world for a period of 40 days before ascending into heaven? Did Jesus promise not to leave us as orphans but to be with us always even until the end of time? Is Jesus the judge of the living and the dead? These are things Christians believe to be true. Muslims believe them to be lies.
Should I believe in a god who is can’t maintain a clear message and is unable to guard it from corruption? While it is true that there may be those who will always seek to suppress or corrupt the message, any message concerning the truth from an all-powerful Being should be eternal and always available to those who seek to find it … and the message should be true for all people at all times. It will never change or be lost. The message sent by the omnipresent and omnipotent Christian God was not, COULD NOT be lost without a trace after the death of Jesus only to be re-discovered centuries later by Muhammad. Muhammad’s Allah is NOT the same Being as the God followed by Christians for one god is weak and the other is strong and one always speaks the truth and the other speaks lies; one is unreliable and deserts this world while the other is dependable and watches over this world for all time … beginning to end. The problem for us human beings living in this world is to decide what is the truth …. if we decide there is such thing as the truth.
worldcitizen1919 says
There’s only one God . He sends teachers or Prophets or Messengers to help us develop our civilisation and spiritually.
None is superior to God.
Champ ✞ says
“worldcitizen” states that he is a Baha’i …
And the central concepts of the Bahai faith are unity, humanity and the establishment of a harmonious global society.
The only One that will create a “harmonious global society” is JESUS CHRIST upon His second coming!!!
Mark my words, the “unity” that Baha’i are trying to establish will NEVER, EVER work, because establishing world peace will one day be the special and unique work of the One True God: JESUS CHRIST!!! Not man’s effort.
Put your faith in Him, and not in *any* religion; since being a Christian is not about becoming religious, but in having a personal relationship with our Precious LORD and Savior, Jesus Christ, and He is the only One who can save you.
worldcitizen1919 says
Christ said, ‘Why thou callest me good. There is non good but one, that is God?
worldcitizen1919 says
People are suffering. Children are starving because of war. I’m not worried about supremacy. Whatever we can do to stop war let’s stop it.
Angemon says
worldcitizen1919 posted:
“His body died on the cross not His Spirit. That is quite simple. The Quran said they didn’t kill Christ meaning His Spirit which was born of God.”
4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
4:158
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
That’s as clear cut as it can be: allah made someone look like Jesus and die on the cross, and took Jesus to be with him. It’s not the spirit, it’s the real, flesh and blood body, and that’s how it has been interpreted by muslim exegesis.
abad says
The problem with that is this:
Jesus’ dying on the cross is a core Christian teaching. Christian teachings are NOT going to appear in the Quran.
Likewise if it was true (which is not) that someone else died on the cross according to the Quran, the Quran would be used by Christians for their beliefs (which is not).
The Quran has basically taken certain parts of the Bible, perverted them to create Islam, then attribute it to God.
And guess who is the deity of perversion.
Yep.
Satan.
Angemon says
abad posted:
“Likewise if it was true (which is not) that someone else died on the cross according to the Quran, the Quran would be used by Christians for their beliefs (which is not).“.
If someone else died on the cross instead of Jesus, as the quran states, Christians wouldn’t use the quran because it negates that Jesus is the Son of God, died on the Cross and returned to life. According to Christian teachings, the whole point of Jesus dying was to atone for the sins of Mankind – having someone else dying in his place would negate that point.
mortimer says
abad wrote: “The Quran has basically taken certain parts of the Bible, perverted them to create Islam…”
Scholars see the ‘two Korans’, one written in Mecca and the second in Medina as evidence that a non-orthodox Christian sect gave rise to Islam. It was developed by unknown followers and the whole mess of contradictions was attributed to an Arabian warlord, long after his assassination.
Rev g says
Wow, your learned religious scholar decides that passages that are well-understood do not mean what people have always understood them to mean
We know how you feel about learned religious scholars, how can you trust one?
Kepha says
@World Citizen: Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist (I John 4:4). Your Bahai attempt to hold onto both Bible and Qur’an forces you to separate “Jesus” and “Christ”. The Gnostics tried it, too.
However, the man Jesus is the Messiah (Christ). The “Christ” isn’t some sort of mystical goo that attaches itself to one or another human person at different times. Forget Shoghi Effendi, Baha’ullah, and all those others and accept that plain, fundamental truth that our salvation is in God becoming man and dwelling among us.
Mr. Sidway has done us a service in pointing out how the doctrine of the Incarnation is non-negotiable for Christian theology.
Laura says
Exactly – “Christ” wasn’t Mary and Joseph’s last name! Yeshua HaMashiach = Jesus Christ, or Jesus Messiah.
worldcitizen1919 says
I believe in Jesus Christ that He came in the flesh. And I also believe He returned with His New Name Baha’u’llah.
Champ says
“worldclassclown” wrote:
I believe in Jesus Christ that He came in the flesh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So what …even the devil “believes”:
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” — James 2:19
In spite of their “belief”, hell was created for the devil and his angels:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” — Matthew 25:41
Also …
Question: “Are we all God’s children, or only Christians?”
Answer: The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).
More here: http://www.gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
Still here, eh?
You’ve never read the Quran. You’ve never read the Bible. You know ZERO about what each religion teaches.
Take your lies and deceptions elsewhere. They are not welcome here.
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
First you say:
“The Crucifixion as Recorded in the New Testament is Correct”
Then you say:
“The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”
Of course there is a conflict between the two, since Islam expressly, EXPLICITLY denies Christ’s crucifixion. (And by extension, resurrection.)
Surah 4:157-158
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
“And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.”
http://quran.com/4/155
You know zero about Islam, just like you know zero about Christianity. ENOUGH already. I am tired of seeing your incoherent nonsense on this site. Why don’t you stop wasting time typing this stuff and instead put that time to use to read both the Quran and the Bible?
You know as well as I do that you know ZERO about either religion. That’s why you keep ignoring me when I’ve asked you address certain points.
You know it!
worldcitizen1919 says
Mo,
Could you please tell me which points you wish to be addressed and I will be glad to address thrm as I cannot find the points you refer to.
The quote you refer to is a Hadith and is not the Quran. Baha’is only accept the Quran as the Word of God.
I will gladly answer your points but I cannot locate them. Can you please send them to me?
allahu snackbar says
It doesn’t matter, gods don’t exist anyway.
Paul Leslie says
As if the words of an intellectual and spiritual cripple meant anything.
David Scoltock says
As if the words of a deluded fundamentalist mean anything either
Mo says
@ David Scoltock
“As if the words of a deluded fundamentalist mean anything either”
As if the words of an ignorant, lying, bigoted Christ-hater who has read NEITHER the Bible nor the Quran mean anything.
RonW says
Name calling is not a valid form of logic.
Jay Boo says
Even a self-absorbed proselytizer of atheism should have enough awareness to realize the duplicitous intentions of Muslims to impose their Allah beast upon the world at which point most of the smug know it all atheists will have an epiphany and discover a new found respect and willing submission for carpet kissing Islam that they were nor previously aware of, while the few true atheists will feign respect just long enough to plan an escape.
RonW says
Yes, we do realise that islam is filth.
Some religions have redeeming features but as far as I can determine, islam has none.
dsinc says
yep.
CogitoErgoSum says
I would think that it DOES matter to those who kill or are being persecuted and killed because of the differences between what is being accepted as the truth. How do you KNOW you have discovered the truth?
The awful truth says
Some critical remarks as a non Christian who happens to enjoy Handel’s Messiah. Whatever Jesus stood for it was not accurately translated by the later Church. There were several versions of Christianity including those that denied the trinity. We understand that Jesus’ brother James did not agree with St Paul. Secondly, Roman Christianity was once the world’s most intolerant religion. Pagan Greek traditions were erased increasingly violently until the 4th C in places like Egypt. I believe though can’t prove that the foundations of Islam were influenced by this sort of religious exclusivism and these texts were even more extreme.
It is now a tragedy how the relatively more peaceful vestiges of Christianity in the ME are being erased. In one sense, what people believe doesn’t matter – it’s how they act. I stand against animal sacrifice and don’t believe in a God who asks for his own creations to be sacrificed for him.
Clearly there is an incompatibility in the notion of God that come from a similar root. Marcian the Roman denied that the Christian God was anything to do with the Jewish God as well …
As for the pedigree of John’s Gospel … But like I said Handel’s Messiah and my gran was Catholic.
David Scoltock says
You can blame the council of Nicea for that. In AD325 the Church became politicised and we have the resulting 2000 years of politicaly motivated genocide and aggressive expansionism.
Now the muslims are getting in on the act, christians get all pissed off because running around and converting by the sword isn’t politicaly correct for christianity anymore.
I think half of it is jealousy. The evangelical nuts see isis pushing gays and atheists off of roofs and get all sad that they are not allowed to do it.
CogitoErgoSum says
David, where is the document issued in 325 by the Council of Nicea which decreed these methods you mentioned for achieving the goals of Christianity? I would like to read it ….. or has it been lost?
David Scoltock says
Look up the various Papal bulls that where issued, the vatican archives still have copies and many are available upon request.
They legitimised persecution, genocide and oppression with the same careful attention to record keeping as the SS.
You have everything from the brutal suppression of the Jesuits. the various crusades against christian heretical sects, the worst being the Albigensian crusade in the south of France. the famous phrase “Kill them all and God will know his own” was coined there, to the inquisition.
All in the name of God, all justified by interpretation of the bible.
CogitoErgoSum says
David, you said I have the Council of Nicea to blame for all that followed … not Papal bulls which resulted from it. I would like to be able to trace this directly back to Nicea. Would you please provide a link to the document you are reading and which the Popes and Christian kings also read and used to justify their actions before God?
One more question: why is it that the current Pope and Christians no longer believe in these vile things you mentioned if the justification used was a basic part of Christianity? Why are such beliefs no longer held by the overwhelming majority of Christians … or are you saying that I, as a Christian, am not a good Christian because I do not believe in such things as being basic tenets of my faith?
Kepha says
Ta-da! The Wisdom of the History Channel–the same people who tell us that space aliens built the pyramids–strikes again!
@Cogito: David Scoltock knows what he’s been told in the profound pages of _The Da Vinci Code_. For people like Brown and those who accept what they write, the Nicene Council has become an immense black box to which they ascribe every popular misperception about.Christianity and its history. It has become a meeting of the Learned Elders of Zion in the Old Jewish Cemetery in Prague overheard by an alert outsider (perhaps someone out to steal late Uncle Moshe’s gold fillings?)–only for Christians.
Of course he can’t produce the document. They’ve never existed except in people’s fevered imaginations. I even suspect that David doesn’t even know where Nicaea is or was.
David Scoltock says
So you deny the Albigensian crusade happened?
Kepha says
David, I deny that the Albigensian Crusade took place just as you deny that there was a man-made famine in the Ukraine during the 1930’s, or in China in the late 1950’s; or that Pol Pot happened to Cambodia. And I don’t see you showing anywhere that the Council of Nicaea produced anything save its classic statement on the Trinity and the two natures of Christ.
I mean, I’m interested in an answer to Cogito’s questions, too.
Mo says
@ David Scoltock
“I think half of it is jealousy. The evangelical nuts see isis pushing gays and atheists off of roofs and get all sad that they are not allowed to do it.”
You evil, lying, bigoted, Christ hating troll.
You’ve never read the Bible. You’ve never read the Quran. You know NOTHING about either religion.
This is a site to discuss ISLAM. Take your Christ hatred elsewhere. Liar.
David Scoltock says
Struck a nerve there methinks. I love how yanks don’t believe in free speech as soon as it doesn’t suit their purposes.
Champ says
Struck a nerve there methinks. I love how yanks don’t believe in free speech as soon as it doesn’t suit their purposes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Methinks striking a nerve is what “David” was going for.
Knight says
This is why the Quran in the book of Satan. Allah is Satan.
Knight says
Oh .. and Mohammed is Satan’s messenger.
john spielman says
YEP and the reason why muslims murder and steal and lie and deceive so much in Europe today is because allah is Satan and Satan was a liar thief and murderer from the beginning (according to Jesus the Christ ) and muhammed pbuh* did as his father the devil commanded him to do.
pbuh*- PERPETUAL BANISHMENT UNTO HELL!
David Scoltock says
You do know that hell isn’t in the bible right?
The word Hell comes from the Nordic/Saxon goddess of the underworld, Hel. When Northern Europe was converted, the missionaries used existing concepts and modified them to make it easier to bring people on board to the new faith.
Half the bullshit you christians believe is hijacked paganism these days.
CogitoErgoSum says
What does happen to a person after he dies, David? Is there something of his consciousness that continues on after death? No bullshit, please.
Mo says
@ David Scoltock
“Half the bullshit you christians believe is hijacked paganism these days.”
You’ve never read the Bible.
Go find one of the many anti-Christian sites to spew your filth. This is a site to discuss Islam.
Jay Boo says
Roleplaying by Muhammad
A good actor must become one with their character.
Muhammad as a messenger sent with revelations could not even get a job as a B list actor.
His envy, spitefulness, lecherousness and claims of unaccountability (the devil tricked him) reveled his dishonorable character trait despite claims otherwise.
He could not even pull off the role of a being a moral human being convincingly, therefore he resorted to violence and intimidation while insisting his audience show carpet kissing submission.
mortimer says
Muslims who study the New Testament to any degree (and actually have read it through) have heretical views that depart from those of canonical Islam. Such people as Reza Aslan and Shabir Ally have deviated from traditional Islamic interpretations because the New Testament and history forced them to refute Islamic doctrines.
Shabir Ally has been subject to critical comments from other Muslims due to unorthodox statements made on the subject of decree and the power of Allah, and accused of misinterpreting the Quran.
Muslims cannot study the New Testament and remain orthodox Muslims.
Jay Boo says
I do not see your point about Reza Aslan
Didn’t he just write a book about Jesus as an angry sword swinging religious fanatic.
Could you be more specific of how Reza Aslan is refuting Islamic doctrines.
mortimer says
Aslan is heretical and could be tried by his sect of Islam for ‘bida’ (innovation). There is no option in Islam about any established doctrine. Deviation is punishable.
https://shepherdguardian.wordpress.com/2013/08/11/heresy-alert-no-virgin-birth-says-the-author-of-zealot/
“Aslan eschews fundamentalism. He is a Muslim, but in his book he rejects the virgin birth of Jesus and concludes that Jesus was in fact crucified, putting him at odds with mainstream Islamic doctrine.”
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
The same God question arises when there is more than one monotheistic religion claiming to believe in the one and only true God.
From a rational and logical point of view the question has no answer because belief is not based on rationality, but means to hold something for true without sufficient evidence that it is true.
Religious belief is about subjective truths. Therefore the Danish Christian philosopher Søren Kierkegaard claimed, that subjectivity is the truth, and what decides the faith is not the object but the way. It does not matter what you believe, but how you believe. The distinctive mark of faith is the intensity of fervor not exterior signs. Kierkegaard’s analysis could be used as an argument for the same God position, but why did he chose Christianity and not Islam?
Often in such discussions the ethical argument is used. It is claimed that the ethics of the New Testament is far superior to the ethics of Islam. In as far as the golden rule, or a similar ethical principle eliminating the inconsistencies in the golden rule, can be rationally proved to be universally true; the evangelical Christians have a valid argument against the ethics of Islam, as the rule in its universal form is not part of Islamic belief. Then the argument is not solely based upon faith but also on rationality.
Different monotheistic beliefs can never prove that the other is false because they are based upon irrationality and subjective or revealed truths. It always ends in circular arguments like: my God is the only true God because I feel very strongly that it is so.
Being a rationalist and an agnostic I prefer Christianity for Islam for the reason given above and also because Christianity, especially in the Lutheran version, separates religion and politics and thus pave the way for a rational democratic order based upon political equality and equal rights under the law for all.
SoCalMike says
Lots of words to make a point.
The God of the Bible loves Jews.
The “god” of the koran hates them.
boakai ngombu says
Yahweh even loves slaves of the allah god of islam (unknowable; the best of all deceivers), but; He is not pleased with their unbelief, especially, of the Christ’s redeeming work. He is not pleased with the erroneous teachings they folllow, which lead to condemnation and death. the allah god does neither save nor make righteous those who persist in unbelief.
Bill McKenzie says
Here’s another:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” … When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades…” Revelation 1
Kepha says
Note how John hears from the risen and glorified Jesus ascriptions which Isaiah reserves for YHWH. This is one of the passages which convince me that Jesus isn’t just another “nice guy” or “great teacher” (did he teach geometry or something?), but fully God and fully man in one person.
Bezelel says
Jews have several names for God, depending on their current need and desire to appeal to God in a specific way. That’s grossly over simplifying,I know, but considering that it is forbidden for Jews and Christians to use God’s name in vain, that is praying for vain purposes, how can Jews and Christians pray to a god who is representative of vain purposes? islam is a man made religion support by mans earthly nature in the most base sense. “The is No god named allah!”
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
All religions are man made, but some are made by better men than others. 😉
Bezelel says
Jan Aage Jeppesen, I don’t know why you felt compelled to post your self inspired opinion but I have noticed the atheists are making an appearance on this board. Since atheists are so comfortable with dis belief, I do not understand any valid need insult those who do. God does not need your permission to exist. As upsetting as it may seem to you, Believers know something you don’t. Final thought for you, There is a God and you aren’t Him.
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
The alternative seems to be to put opinions held by others forward instead of my own. That would be dishonest in my opinion.
What atheists do is not my concern, being an agnostic myself.
Also, I am not comfortable with disbelief but find no compelling reason to believe in the man-made religions. My position is best described by Buddha who is believed to have said:
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
As Buddhism does not agree with my own reason, I am not a Buddhist.
If there is a God you are right that He does not need my permission to exist. On the other hand I do not need Gods permission to exist.
It is not upsetting to me that Believers claim to know something I don’t. If they only knew what I know they would all be agnostics or deists. The question is how do they know that God exist? The answer is that they don’t know it, but they feel that they know it. It is a subjective truth and also a very diffuse one. That is why we have so many different religions and sects, and why we have this interesting discussion in the first place.
On the other hand we only have one universal system of logic applied in science and language philosophy giving the same results whether you are a Believer or not. So I put my money on the power of logic, but do not rule out that logic could have its limits leaving some doubt. That’s why I am a sceptic agnostic even in doubt of the truth of the agnostic position.
I regard the atheist position as inconsistent because they claim to know something they cannot possibly know. It is almost as bad as the theistic position. 😉
somehistory says
Bezelel,
Just as there are people who can’t understand the questions surrounding the properties of light…is it energy, is it matter, how does it bend and refract…no matter how many times it is explained to them, there are people who cannot understand the truth about God. They can’t mentally grasp the idea that Someone has always lived and they can’t see Him.
People will deny what they do not know or understand. And some don’t wish to understand that there is a God because it would mean there is someone greater than they are, or even that they have a responsibility to a Supreme Authority.
In the ancient world of Rome, the emperors and their subjects called the Christians *atheists* because they didn’t believe in and worship the multitude of ‘gods.’
It is a *funny world,* is it not?
Bezelel says
Jan Aage Jeppesen, You said,” The question is how do they know that God exist? The answer is that they don’t know it, but they feel that they know it.”
And that is where you are wrong, and that is where beating you over the head with a Bible would be counter productive. Consider that fish don’t necessarily believe that water exists and they are not punished if they can’t wrap their mind around it.
somehistory, Yes it is a funny world, though not always a ha ha funny!
somehistory says
No, not ha ha.
It is amazing when one ponders the way people are, to think about the facts concerning human behavior.
A child…most of the time…will obey the parents, until such time as he thinks he is beyond listening and makes his own decisions as to what to do, not do.
Accepts authority of teachers, professors, police, judges, and bosses. Even being obedient to a store clerk who demands identification when receiving service.
But this same person will balk at the idea of obeying a Supreme Being, the very One Who is able to give life, take life, preserve life and restore life. And will deny this One even exists because the proof God has given us is just not enough to satisfy.
Not any laughter at all connected with the subject.
Kepha says
Judging from your name, my guess is you’re Scandinavian. Ever consider that the readiness to jettison Christ may be the reason why your Nordic countries left themselves wide open to Islamic predation?
Ole Hallesby–one great Norsker. Too bad he was Lutheran rather than Reformed. 😉
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
You are right – I am Danish.
Actually I think that the state sponsored Lutheran version of Christianity is part of the reason the Nordic countries left themselves wide open to Islamic predation. The emphasis on turning the other cheek and to love your neighbor makes it difficult to find moral justification to criticize Islam and the behavior of Muslims.
In my opinion there is an inconsistency in the way the two primary Christian ethical obligations – the golden rule and, as I see it, the religious version of the rule, to love God and your neighbor as yourself – are formulated.
They do not specify the obligations towards yourself and give no reason for the obligations towards others.
As a person you have an obligation to make sure you can live as a person, and that set a limit to what you should accept from other people. You should not tolerate intolerance and injustice.
Christians are scared to death of being called racists or islamophobes and therefore afraid to oppose he Islamization of their country. In this version Christianity is the perfect dhimmi religion.
mortimer says
Reply to Jan Aage Jeppesen: Disagree that the Golden Rule is a problem for the Church. The application of it is a problem, i.e. a soft-headed, fuzzy approach. When my teachers and parents insisted I study hard, they had my best interests in mind, though I might have resisted. When Muslims resist facts about Islam, we need out of CHARITY, to be insistent that they look at the facts and judge them reasonably according to the rules of philosophy. Polemics are for Christians with intellectual honesty and academic rigor.
Hard-headed Christianity is not hard-hearted, but an example of ‘tough love’. We need to constantly call Muslims out for faulty reasoning, wrong facts, absurd ideas, opportunism, anomalies, incoherencies, contradictions, etc.
Christians have to pay the price of stating something true, but unpopular.
Walter Sieruk says
Many imams and other apologists for Islam have made the claim to the American public that both Christian and Muslim worship the same God. Strangely enough some “Christian ” pastors ,such as that sell out, Rick Warren have likewise made the same claim. Here again is that claim true and valid or false and invalid. Just by common sense ,after studying the subject, it may be seen that the God of the Christians and the god of the Muslims is not the same God For the god of Islam, Allah, is a single being. In great contrast the God of the Christianity Who is much more complex then Islamic /Koranic god,that is the god of Islam. For the God the Christians believe in a Being Who consists as a Triune God. Who Being the Trinity. So to define the Trinity doctrine is may be defined that “Within the essence of the one God there are three Distinct Persons. God the Father. God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.” The Tri-Personal Nature of God. Mathew 3:13-17. Second Corinthians 13;14. So by logic and reason the God of the Christians and the god of the Muslims can’t be the same God .For both have a different nature or essence too an extreme difference. Furthermore, to add some more detail about the one and only Triune God. In the boob MAJOR BIBLE THEMES by Lewis Sperry Chafter on page 39 it reads “Many believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is implicit in the use of the word Elohim , as a name of God which is in the plural form and seems to refer to the Triune God.” Likewise,in the Christian magazine PERHAPS TODAY ,November-December 2013 on page 8 about Genesis 1:1. ” ‘ the beginning God’ [this is the plural noun Elohim, meaning ‘more than one’] Created the heaven and the earth…” Moreover, in Genesis 1:26,. it reads” God said , Let Us make man in Our image,after our likeness… That is “We, the Trinity. this is more clearly confirmed in verse 27 which further states that “So God created man in His own image…” The reader might notice that if this is not the Trinity then there is an agreement error ,because it is in verse 26 it reads” Us” and” “Our” being plural .Then it changes in verse 27.to “His” as in the singular. .Further, In the New Testament in Matthew 28:19 reads that Jesus said “Go ye therefore ,and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.” [K.J.V.] That is in the”name’ and not “names” In addition ,the Working of the Trinity may be seen in that the Father sanctifies First Thessalonians. 5:23. The Son sanctifies Ephesus. 5:26 Heb. 2:11. 9:12,14.; 13:12. The Holy Spirit sanctifies Romans 15;16. Second Thessalonians 2:13. Likewise, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9,10. The Son raised Himself from the dead, John 2:19-21. The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead Romans 8:11. In conclusion, the God of the Bible and Christians is not the god of the Koran, Islam and the Muslims
Mo says
@ David Scoltock
“You do know that hell isn’t in the bible right?”
You know nothing about the Bible. You know nothing about the Quran. You’ve read neither one.
Take your Christ-hatred elsewhere, you lying bigot. This site is about ISLAM.
Be gone, troll.
Sp says
Allah is Satan
http://www.deonvsearth.com/who-is-allah-evidence-discovered/
c matt says
Honestly, i don’t think Allah is Satan. What I really think is that Satan got into Mohammed’s head (and maybe even visited him pretending to be Gabriel) and filled it with all this crap you see in the Koran, giving Mo the green light to do as he pleased.
linnte says
Wow! I mean really WOW! A Damascus road experience. Those mothers prayed for ISIS?? Is this true and where can I find it? Wow!
Also, I am a nobody just beginning to learn all this stuff, but even while reading the Qur’an, I notice it “feels” different than the Bible. There must be a wee bit of Christian left in this Pagan, because, when I read the New Testament, I still get a good feeling reading what Jesus says. The Qur’an is out of sync with the Bible-It does not sound like the God of the Bible talking. What I hear while reading the Qur’an, is an uneducated (biblically)old man who is envious of the joy he sees Christians of his day, having. He is insecure in his standing in his community and has fabricated this story to impress at first, but when it starts to draw people in, he becomes thirsty for more and more adoration. He really does not quote Biblical Scripture accurately!!! And those around him don’t know it either so they believe him.
Lastly, what is the deal with the Jinn? Who the hell are the Jinn? These beings are never mentioned in the Bible-created from fire? So how will they be tormented in hell fire if they ARE fire? Surely this is a Pagan ideology passed along because of his ignorance! So much to learn!!!?
JH Laprime says
“God is too exalted to have a son”.
And yet, Muhammad had early on accepted the idea of Allah’s daughter (though later reneged)…
Kepha says
The Devil made him buy that dress, JH.
Zathras says
Being an agnostic allows me to be a little discerning with respect to gods and their claims. IMVHO a god is only deserving of respect if he hold some degree of ethics as it related to most of humanity, and in fact life in general.
Allah is an far worse version of the cruel, vindictive OT god, and even makes the Aztec/Mayan gods appear mild by comparison and IMO not is deserving of notice, let alone respect or worship. So TBH if he IS really a god, I would much prefer to end up in his hell rather than follow his orders and live in his nebulous “heaven” where the lesser needs of man seem to be serviced only. looking at allah as an individual is difficult as he seems impossible to separate from the persona of his creator the know warlord and pretender prophet. But a brief look at his demands and his expectations places him at a new lower level of the ethics scale and if you can call him “alive ” he is less worthy than then lowest maggot, tapeworm, even mosquito or virus, who only kill (and often by accident)so that they can survive.
thus looking at allah as a creature I would not provide him with a drop of water if he were ablaze as the universe would be a far better place without him and “bugger the theology”.
mortimer says
worldcitizen1919 wrote: ‘I’m not worried about supremacy.’
Since ‘worldcitizen’ lives in the West, he has no reason to worry. Bahai’is living under the supremacism of Iran are severely persecuted and they are worried. There is reason be worried about supremacism…he is foolish not to be worried.
worldcitizen1919 says
The Bahai Faith is based on oneness and is opposed to all ideas of supremacy whether race, religion, class or nationality.
“O Children of Men!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other.
Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “The Hidden Words.” No.68
c matt says
So you’re kind of like Unitarians?
worldcitizen1919 says
We accept the basic truths in all religions and work for the unity of mankind.
“The basis of the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh is the Unity of Mankind, and his greatest desire was that love and goodwill should live in the heart of men.
“The chief cause of unrest is the misrepresentation of religion by the religious leaders and teachers. They teach their followers to believe that their own form of religion is the only one pleasing to God, and that followers of any other persuasion are condemned
“Hence arise among the peoples, disapproval, contempt, disputes and hatred. If these religious prejudices could be swept away, the nations would soon enjoy peace and concord.”
Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Paris Talks.” Bahá’í eBooks
mortimer says
worldcitizen, Wake up. Islam is not your friend. Find out why not. Islamic doctrines are inherently supremacist.
https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-iranian-bahais/current-situation
Summary
Since the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, Baha’is have been systematically persecuted as a matter of government policy. During the first decade of this persecution, more than 200 Baha’is were killed or executed, hundreds more were tortured or imprisoned, and tens of thousands lost jobs, access to education, and other rights – all solely because of their religious belief.
Government-led attacks on the country’s largest non-Muslim religious minority have re-intensified in the last decade. Since 2005, more than 815 Baha’is have been arrested, and the number of Baha’is in prison has risen from fewer than five to more than 70. The list of prisoners includes all seven members of a former leadership group serving the Baha’i community of Iran. In 2010, the seven were wrongly sentenced to 20 years in prison, the longest term currently facing any prisoner of conscience in Iran. Recent reports indicate that their sentences have been belatedly reduced from 20 years to 10 years, in line with changes to the Iranian Penal Code introduced in May 2013. The constant threat of raids, arrests, and detention or imprisonment is among the main features of Iran’s persecution of Baha’is today.
Other types of persecution include economic and educational discrimination, strict limits on the right to assemble and worship, and the dissemination of anti-Baha’i propaganda in the government-led news media. Attacks on Baha’is or Baha’i-owned properties go unprosecuted and unpunished, creating a sense of impunity for attackers. Since 2005, for example, there have been at least 52 incidents of arson against Baha’i properties, crimes for which no one has been arrested. During the same period, 42 incidents of vandalism at Baha’i cemeteries have been recorded. As noted by a top UN human rights official, the government-led persecution spans “all areas of state activity, from family law provisions to schooling, education, and security.”(link is external) Put another way: the oppression of Iranian Baha’is extends from cradle to grave.
Read more at https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-iranian-bahais/current-situation#V1QE5O5yBlOhfQ3j.99
worldcitizen, you should be helping the victims and writing against Islam which persecutes them systemically…’from cradle to grave’.
worldcitizen1919 says
You don’t know and have no idea what it means to me that SOMEONE has spoken up for the persecution of Baha’is. I thank you sincerely from the depths of my heart. God bless you forever.
It makes the persecution look even more horrendous when you think.Bahais uphold and defend the Prophet and the Quran on forums such as this even accepting being personally ridiculed so WHY, if they love Muhammad and the Quran are they being. Treated like this in Iran?? What could be the reason We have no guns or bombs and are not involved in politics so WHY.?? What are they AFRAID of???
I really wish one day what you quoted could be put up here and the Iranians challenged to give an answer WHY people who defend the Prophet and Quran are treated so badly.
I have no real idea why, except the Iranians love the Baha’is and the regime fear that if they armovwrthrown Iran will all convert to Baha’i so they are very afraid of us for we have no guns or bombs only our Faith so it must be that that scares them.
I am eternally indebted to you for bringing this up. I didn’t bring it up here because there are a lot of other people worse off than us.
But thank you for posting this. I am very grateful and at the same time sad that they are as you say persecuted from cradle to grave. It reads my heart up.
xxxChurch100 says
Dear mortimer , I have read your postings for some time hence mine to you .
An Invitation :
I don’t know if this incident gained press coverage abroad . [ outside Australia ]
3 Saturdays ago Australian missionaries Dr Ken Elliot and his wife Jocelyn , who have built and staffed what is now 120 bed hospital in Burkina Fuso West Africa were kidnapped at gunpoint by Islamic terrorists …. [more soldiers of Allah ].
There whereabouts is unknown but maybe in neighborliness Mali .
They have selflessly worked providing the only medical service and Christian Outreach in this very remote ” Muslim area ” of Africa for 43 years…..Why ?… because that is what ” People of the Book ” do they model themselves on the example of Jesus …. Dr Elliot and his wife are in their 80s … there is a very humbling interview with Dr Elliot from a few years ago on utube .
mortimer,
Could you [and your church] please join with our Community Church this Sunday and lift our ” brother and sister ” and their families up to Our Heavenly Father in prayer ?
Regards
xxxChurch100
worldcitizen1919 says
When you say prayers in your Church can you remember us please?
Champ says
https://youtu.be/4JK_6osCH74
“Word Of God Speak”
Herp Derper says
It’s pretty simple. In the story, Allah deceived Jesus’ enemies to make them think he’d been crucified. Question, did the God of Abraham ever deceive anyone? Is there any story that “And then God tricked the enemies of the tribe of Israel?” I don’t think so. God would smite people. Never deceive them.
So Allah lies. He commands his follows to lie (taqqiya) if it helps spread Islam or they’re being “persecuted.” Kind of makes him the Father of Lies, no?
Is there another character from the Bible who bears a better resemblance to Allah, a liar and a deceiver, than God? Who could it be, who could it be…
JH Laprime says
Bravo!
John Price says
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION! ISLAM IS A SATANIC DEATH CULT!
Muslims Worship SATAN!
worldcitizen1919 says
Why don’t we just for a minute separate the belief from the 1.6 billion fellow human beings that follow Islam. Can they all be evil? Aren’t there any good amongst these billion people? They are human beings aren’t they?
Forgetting about religion they are our fellow human beings aren’t they?
I love their art like Persian carpets and their food like Kebabs and Korma’s and they have so many other things that enrich the human landscape such as Arabic which is one of the richest languages in the world.
Forgetting religion for a moment there is a lot of beauty in the culture and traditions of these people so for me personally and as a Baha’i I don’t see only Islam when I look at them but see them as fellow human beings. Isn’t that another positive way of seeing another race and religion?
I sure not all the 1.6 billion hate us or are all hostile it’s just the fanatics.and the news tends to play it up to incite us but I see the beauty of their culture instead. We must protect our borders and nations from those who wish to do us harm but there are many good. Not all are evil.
bouboulina says
It’s as simple as this: There is no way to reconcile the Koran with the Bible–they are diametrically opposed, as one is prescribes a culture of death & torture couched in sanctimonious terms & the other tells those who will listen to “choose life”!
Edward says
Islam is one of many idiosyncrasies of humanity…..to ego-justify the Muslim world in this case. Sadly, they had to plagiarize two existing religions (Judeo-Christianity) to model theirs to fit their perverted propensities……by doing so; desecrating the intent of the already well established religious tenets/beliefs!
X@mailinator.com says
This ‘same god’ approach is a current favorite of the Islamists on popular blog boards. Thank you for providing this vital and detailed article to clarify. I will link this on a blog. Thank you. / Also, a suggestion from a new jihadwatch reader; Can we please get some lines in between the open comment posts? It’s too difficult to speed read through these posts without borders and clearly defined posting lines. Thank you.
c matt says
Because it is Allah speaking in and through the Koran, therefore Christian apologists for the Same God position cannot hide behind the relativistic, academic “different conceptions of God” curtain. That is ducking the question.
No, it is actually asking the right question. You are answering the wrong question. You ask “do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?” To answer that question, all the information you need is to determine to whom do Christians and Muslims direct their worship? They both profess to direct their worship to the one Creator of the universe. Because there can be no more than one Creator, they must by definition be worshiping the same God. Pretty straightforward logic and common sense.
The disconnect is you are asking “do we worship the same God” (which is yes), but answering “do we have the same conception of God” (which, by the way is obviously no) – the very “curtain” you claim others are hiding behind, is the very curtain you are pulling on by bringing up evidence of Muslims’ different conception of God!!! (e.g., is His nature trinitarian?).
Tina says
Of course Christians and Muslim’s do not/not serve the same God!!
Islam is made up of 1/3 Judaism, 1/3 Christianity, 1/3 paganism (approximate breakdown). Therefore some things sound familiar to Christians, e.g., Abraham, Jesus as a Prophet, God is Almighty.
However the whole foundation of Christianity is missing in the Islamic Quran. In the Christian Bible, mankind turned their backs on God in Paradise and Adam’s complete posterity was forever condemned. However God intervened in Gen 15 and offered His Son to come to this world to redeem and save sinners. The entire OT is a foreshadowing of the birth of Christ and the washing away of sins—the animal sacrifice refers to the perfect Lamb of God being sacrificed! The NT is a fulfilment of those OT ceremonies and rituals and Christ was manifest in the flesh! I suspect most Christian’s don’t even know the reason why any longer. Original sin was done in our human nature and therefore it has to be punished in it’s human nature. OT sacrifices pointed to the first coming of Christ in person. His coming in Person and His sacrifice on the cross is the fulfilment of those OT sacrifices which can now be done away with. Christ loved His people so much that He offered Himself (Lo I come, I will do Thy will) to suffer the wrath of God against sin. If Christ was not God, He could not have withstood that punishment. The Bible teaches that if you don’t ever learn to know the first Adam (Adam in his human nature and fall) you will never comprehend the wonder of the salvation of the second Adam (Christ). Outside of this Christ, God is a consuming fire.
Secondly if Christians (and Jews) would serve the God of the Quran, they would be serving a God that hates them and desires their destruction. Google it, there is an excellent article about this by an ex-Muslim.
Thirdly, the heaven of the Christians doesn’t even remotely resemble the heaven of the Quran. The heaven of the Quran is mostly for men, very few women enter it. It also is blasphemically obscene.
The heaven of the Christian Bible is where hell-worthy sinners will forever glorify, adore and magnify their Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, in perfect humility, adoration and praise. It will always remain a great wonder that they are there and their praise will be all the greater for they know they did not deserve it!
Robert Spencer has written several volumes on the Islamic beliefs. Read them.