Problems with this study:
1. Tom Anderson used an English version of the Qur’an, which often obscure the martial meaning of words such as jahada, strive or struggle, which is the verbal form of jihad. Translating this word as “strive” is common, but obscures the violent import.
2. The study seems to have simply counted words that suggested violence. There is no hint in this article that Anderson took into account whether or not believers were being commanded to imitate the violent action. In the Bible, they aren’t. There are many passages of the Qur’an, on the other hand, that direct believers to commit violent acts. “Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%),” says this article, but it doesn’t mention that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to kill, while Muslims are told to kill many times in the Qur’an (2:191, 4:89, 9:5, 47:4, etc.).
3. There are armed groups of Muslims all over the world today, killing people and justifying their actions by referring to the Qur’an and Sunnah. There are no groups of Jews or Christians killing people and justifying their actions by referring to the Bible. This is not an accident, and warrants consideration in any genuine study of which religion’s book is more violent: mainstream exegesis in all three traditions should have been taken into account.
If it had been, however, Anderson would have found the Islam is much, much more violent than Judaism and Christianity, and that is not an outcome that the Western intelligentsia wants to hear.
“‘Violence more common’ in Bible than Quran, text analysis reveals,” by Samuel Osborne, Independent, February 10, 2016:
An analysis into whether the Quran is more violent than the Bible found killing and destruction occur more frequently in the Christian texts than the Islamic.
Investigating whether the Quran really is more violent than its Judeo-Christian counterparts, software engineer Tom Anderson processed the text of the Holy books to find which contained the most violence.
In a blog post, Mr Anderson explains: “The project was inspired by the ongoing public debate around whether or not terrorism connected with Islamic fundamentalism reflects something inherently and distinctly violent about Islam compared to other major religions.”
Using text analytics software he had developed, named Odin Text, he analysed both the New International Version of both the Old and New Testaments as well as an English-language version of the Quran from 1957.
It took just two minutes for his software to read and analyse the three books.
By categorising words into eight emotions – Joy, Anticipation, Anger, Disgust, Sadness, Surprise, Fear/Anxiety and Trust – the analysis found the Bible scored higher for anger and much lower for trust than the Quran.
Further analysis found the Old Testament was more violent than the New Testament, and more than twice as violent as the Quran.
Mr Anderson summarises: “Of the three texts, the content in the Old Testament appears to be the most violent.
“Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%).”…

Peter Charles says
The Bible recounts history, which has wars , and violence. The Qur’an recounts no history except to steal portions from the Old and New Testaments and exhorts and sanctifies murder, rape, slavery, looting as something that pleases a god they call allah when committed against non believers, apostates and polytheists. , an adaption of the moon god al-illah. in a tome about the size of an old Perry Mason novel. The comparison is a false one.
mortimer says
Peter Charles wrote: “The Qur’an … sanctifies murder, rape, slavery, looting as something that pleases …allah ”
The Koran contains a chapter entitled ‘The Spoils of War’ and verses that authorize honor-killing (K.18:74, 18:80-81), wife beating and even wife murder (K. 4:14; 24:2; 17:32; 4:34; 38:44).
Chapter 9 of the Koran generalizes the use of violence against disbelievers and makes jihad Islam’s most important and central action even more important than prayer and fasting.
fudge says
Christians follow the New Testament not the Old Testament.
Godfrey Johnson says
Except when they choose to obey the Ten Commandments.
Mark Swan says
Christ said We must live by Every Word Of God…the only word of God available at
the time when He said that was the Old Testament…Christ wrote all the Word of God…
Christ was…and is The Word of God…Christ Is the God of the Old Testament…and
The God of The New Testament don’t be afraid to obey God…He loved Us First…
He will join His Mind with Those Who are Willing and Obedient…
He will make it possible for You to obey Him…only good can come of it.
John Stefan Obeda says
God does not ask Christians to follow the ceremonial law that He gave to His people, for instance, that we are commanded to worship Him on a Saturday, but He wants us to obey the moral law, i.e. the 10 commandments. And, by the way, the OT points to the coming of the Messiah which we pay attention to and the NT points us to Jesus, the Messiah Who has come. The saving Gospel message is in the OT too and not just in the NT. For instance: Genesis 3:15 where God tells the devil that the Seed of the woman will crush his power, etc.
Godfrey Johnson says
@Mark Swan
Is this the same Christ who said, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple”?
And the guy who invented eternal hellfire, as opposed to Sheol?
I suppose it depends on which of those conflicting Gospels you choose to go with.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The only “conflict” tho be found in Yhwh God’s Word, is so “found” by the carnal mindleaning to its own understanding, and generally also taking passages out of the full context of that Word.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Indeed it IS false! To base such an opinion on a machine counting words, without understanding the meanings, let alone the context, of those words is inane! But then, libs AREgenerally inane, when it comes to matters pertaining to the God of Heaven, Whom they reject as completely as Islam does! Where Biblical understanding is concerned, the Holy Spirit, and context are EVERYTHING, and human understanding counts for naught! But context means the WHOLE Bible, not merely, the passage, or chapter, or even the book, within which the quote is contained.
Mark Swan says
Yes Indeed Sandra Lee Smith.
jihad3tracker says
IF THERE IS A CONTACT PATH TO THIS “ANDERSON” PERSON —- PLEASE EVERYONE HERE POLITELY AND CONCISELY LET HIM IN ON REALITY ABOUT THE QUR’AN.
EVERY PRIVILEGE-GUILT LEFTIST AND EVERY MUSLIM DECEIVER WILL POST THAT ERRONEOUS CONCLUSION TO FOOL THE CLUELESS MILLIONS AMONG US.
gravenimage says
You can contact him through LinkedIn:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/samuelosbornejournalist
ECAW says
Or you can leave a comment on the blog referenced above:
http://odintext.com/blog/textanalysisbible2of3/
barenakedislam says
The correct analysis is here:
http://cspipublishing.com/statistical/charts/BibleKoranPoliticalViolence_72dpi_preview.jpg
from
http://cspipublishing.com/statistical/charts.html
which also explains the data, where actual human read the text.
barenakedislam says
In case picture is not visible:
Thousnads of words devoted to political violence:
Old Testament: 34
New Testament: 0
Quran+Sira+Hadiths: 328
Specifically, islamic holy texts contain 10 times more political violence than the old testament, and infinitely more than the new testament.
By Bill Warner.
somehistory says
Thanks for the numbers.
barenakedislam says
This Tom Anderson just counted words, he never actually read the text. So he didn’t filter anything or evaluated the meaning of any whole sentence or passage.
He also just used Quran which is islamic equvalent to “10 commandments” and ignored “hadiths” which are the equivalent to the Old Testament — the reports of the events around the “commandments”
gravenimage says
Thanks, barenakedislam.
mortimer says
Tom Anderson forgot the Law of Abrogation that Islam uses to explain how two verses can contradict each other and still be the word of Allah.
The mullahs decided that chronologically later verses in the Koran superseded or ‘ABROGATED’ the early verses.
As a result of abrogation, about 100 ‘tolerant’ verses are abrogated by the verses revealed in the Meccan period of the Koran.
The violent verses of the Koran, especially those in Chapter 9 of the Koran are the main sources of the jihad doctrine of Islam of warfare against disbelievers. Jihad warfare against disbelievers is operative until the end of time and compulsory upon all Muslims without exception. Each Muslim must do his part to defeat the disbelievers and implement discriminatory Sharia law whether by violence or by deception.
Tom Anderson needs to factor ABROGATION into his analysis and restart the program.
Karen says
Excellent point.
Mark Swan says
ABROGATION…it took me a while…Yes I agree too
Hope says
Oh, the liberals love this Bible vs. Qu’ran argument, don’t they? “Oh, the Bible is sooooo violent!” They usually pull this one out when all of their other pro-Islam arguments have been shot down in the debate. Look, when Christ sent his disciples on ahead of Him, He told them that, if any town refused to receive and welcome them, they were to shake the dust of that town from their feet and go on (Luke, chapter 10). What did Mohammed instruct his followers to do with those who would not receive Islam? Right.
somehistory says
Great comparison.
Dacritic says
Yea, bull’s eye. Mr Anderson, are you listening.
Myxlplik says
I just did a study on the Merck Manual, and after running several dyslexic permutations I discovered that this book of evil contains the word “attack” more times than any other literary work. I didn’t have time to analyze the context, but based upon my initial analysis I believe this to be the most violent book ever written.
Anne says
OMG that is FUNNY. Needed a laugh after the story about the bishops muz Catholic dialogue.
gravenimage says
Hilarious, Myxlplik.
Arthur says
You have hit upon the key problem with this article: that kind of text searching and analysis doesn’t work. It doesn’t work for building scientific understanding of scientific topics and it doesn’t work for religious texts either. So many of these “big data” scientists come from startups promising big drug companies that they’ve got the algorithm to find the next blockbuster drug. But it never actually works in the end. This Tom Anderson is just peddling more of a very tested-and-failed line of baloney.
Dom107 says
It doesn’t work with recruitment companies either who send you irrelevant jobs based on word searches.Computers are dumb as are humans who base their lives on this anachronistic “bull”????
Karen says
Great analysis!! Using your technique, I’ve found that the Oxford English Dictionary is hideously violent too!
mortimer says
The dictionary would be the MOST violent book, containing every known violent word!
Yours is the BEST explanation of the flawed approach in Tom Anderson’s query.
gravenimage says
Brilliant, Karen.
Katy says
Haha, excellent Karen.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Outstanding! The Merck Manual is a “bible” to medical practice inmuch of the westernworld, at least!
somehistory says
More stupid stuff to enhance the *image* of the wild beast from satan the devil.
A computer can only put out what is put in. The proof of which teaching is violent, commands violence and commands giving admiration to vile actions can be seen in any part of the world.
Adherents of islam and those adhering to the teachings and commands of the Bible are on the world stage. Only the willfully blind refuse to see which group is killing, raping, stealing, torturing, lying…all for the furtherance of their evil death cult.
Kepha says
It seems that this study neglects to note that there are > 780,000 words in the Bible and > 77,000 words in the Qur’an. In short, the Bible is more than ten times larger than the Qur’an–to say nothing of completely ignoring the contexts of anything said, especially the historical unfolding of Biblical revelation.
Anderson’s study is a case of lies, damned lies, statistics, and damned statistics.
rara says
Absolutely lies, since to make a fair comparison, he had to compare Quran only with 10 commandments. All words in Quran are believed by Muslims to be the “direct words from Allah.” Only 10 commandments are the direct words from God in the Bible.
John Stefan Obeda says
Oh, my friend, Rara; you have to read the Bible more.
gravenimage says
I was going to mention the disparate length of these texts as well, Kepha.
Karen says
Great point! Gee, isn’t it funny that Anderson doesn’t mention this fact, and scale his results? Must have been an oversight…. 🙂
Anon says
He used a program called ‘Odin Text’.
Odin is a Pagan God. Odin is a false God.
No surprise that Odin Text supports Allah over the Trinity. The program insults Jesus.
All false gods are the same false god. Satan by any other name.
Karen says
Isn’t Tom Anderson clever? (Not 🙂 )
Kepha says
Yes, and being partly Norwegian, I think the best thing that ever happened to Mama’s ancestors was when King Olav gave them the choice of baptism or the sword; the second best was when they opted for the Reformation.
The Norse gods were pretty grim and vicious, too; and not all that powerful. Whereas Jesus Christ gets the last word in the last judgment, Odin ends up swallowed by Fenrirulfr.
Observing the ferment going on in his native Germany during the 19th century, Heinrich Heine noted that once the cross was broken (an observation paralleled by Marx’s understanding that criticism in Germany meant criticism of Christianity), the ancient gods would brush away the dust of centuries, and “Thor, leaping to life, will smash the Gothic cathedrals” in an orgy of Teutonic pugnacity. The historian Peter Viereck, considering the Third Reich, its rise, fall, and legacy, thought that at this point, Heine was only a little short of prophetic.
We live in an era in which the gates of Hell have been opened, and myriads of deceiving spirits from the Father of Lies let loose on the earth.
Christian A. Beltram says
It is good that Mr. Anderson is trying to find out whether the Bible or the Qu’ran is more violent. Even though Mr. Anderson based his conclusions on the use of an English-language version of the Qur’an in which the full meaning of words like jihada is overlooked at best and ignored at worst, his work should be commended and it will hopefully inspire scholars with out politically correct views and agendas to mount their own studies of the Qur’an’s violent teachings.
If people want to find out what different versions of the Bible say about violence, the following websites contain useful search engines:
http://bible.oremus.org
http://www.biblebrowser.com
http://www.biblegateway.com
http://www.biblehub.com
http://www.biblestudytools.com
http://www.bible.catholic.net
http://www.drbo.org
http://www.catholicdoors.com/bible
http://www.catholic.org/bible
http://www.usccb.org/bible
http://www.mechon-mamre.org
These and other such websites are very good because in addition to searching through the Bible on them, people can use them to both read and listen to different Bible versions on line for free.
mortimer says
Danish textual analyst Tina Magaard found Islam is the most warlike religion after 3-year study of 10 different religious traditions.
Danish researcher Tina Magaard, PhD concluded that Islam is the most warlike religion. After three years analyzing the original texts of ten different religions, Tina Magaard concluded that the Islamic texts stand out by encouraging terror and violence to a larger degree than other religions do. She stated that ‘Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far larger degree than the original texts of other religions. The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree.’
She concluded, “It is indisputable that the texts [of Islam] encourage violence and terror.”
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/islam.a.religion.of.violence.quran.directly.incites.terror.killing.people.of.other.faiths.danish.study.says/72088.htm
RCCA says
I saw this two days ago, reported on a discussion group (Facebook) which I had assumed was mostly Orthodox Jews. So I added a comment mentioning similar objections, the descriptive versus proscriptive argument. My comment was deleted the next day and comments hastily closed. When I asked why, the moderator claimed about my comment, “It was political, irrelevant, and a chillul hashem.” I was also accused of claiming all Muslims are evil, which I do not believe. So I had to look up chillul hasem and it means: “desecration of the name of God, is a term used in Judaism for any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in God, any aspect of the Torah’s teachings, Jewish law, or the Jewish community.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem
That just goes to show how hysterical and self righteous some Jews get in defending Islam. I tried to figure out this refusal to address reality, easily rectified by actually examining Islam and the Koran, and the best I could come up with is they gain: 1. a sense of moral superiority from moral equivalence and blaming Jews for the conflict instead of the Other 2. a wish to maintain a sense of control by self blaming, instead of a feeling of helplessness by recognizing that the conflict is out of their control.
gravenimage says
So some Jewish people are such dhimmis that they believe that criticizing the violence of Islam is “desecrating the name of God”? What suicidal madness…
RCCA says
Yeah, exactly. It is madness disguised as righteousness. No one does righteous like Orthodox Jews, sad to say except devout Muslims. Maybe that’s the attraction?
mgoldberg says
Youi’re full of hot air and bovine fertilizer…. now, you’ve just compared orthodox jews to devout muslims.
Nice….. completely false. Since most and I mean overwhelimingly large majority of orthodox, observnat jews have no compulsion to excuse Islam- but of course the overwhleminng western culture demands jews and christians and everyone had better do just that, you ‘ve found one site that did that. And to make the point, it is in no way a ‘chilul hashem’ to speak against the slaugtering or Islam- none. There is no such laws that can be so interpreted. So, you concluded that most observant jews have madness disguised as righteousness. You might try any of about 100 or so ‘orthodox’ blog sites that deal with such issues entirely differently than you’ve peddles as madness disguised as righteousness. Here’s just one- elderofziyon.blogspot.com.
And for the record- your smear of jews, based on falsity, perfectly mirrors the arse who peddled this study.
mgoldberg says
just so your two bit jew hatred doesn’t fester and eat your brain… I’ll provide some more sites for you to peruse that have authorship by observant jews- not all- but enough for you to take some tape and put across your big fat mouth.
antisincerely yours
Mark
Israellycool
IsraelSeen
Shiloh Musings
Daphne Anson
Israel Matzav
Jewish Voice and Opinion
Israel Thrives
My Right Word
Eye On The World
Debbie Schlussel
Daled Amos
Abu Yehuda
Norway, Israel and the jews
Random Thoughts- Do They Have Meaning?
Jerusalem State of Mind
Augean Stables
Peace and Conflict Politics
Framing Israel
the sad red earth
Shawarma News
Yourish.com
Daniel Gordis – Dispatches from an Anxious State
The Muqata
favorites
source materials
Historical Jewish/Zionist press archives archives
Avalon Mideast documents
Fatah Constitution
Hamas charter
Oslo letters between Rabin and Arafat
Bin Laden’s fatwa against the US
reference sites
Encyclopedia Judaica
List of Muslim terror attacks since 9/11
Interactive maps of Israel
Terror victims in Israel 1952-today
Myths and Facts
Interactive map of Israel
Answer to anti-semitic fake “Talmud” quotes
List and bios of all Israeli terror victims since September 2000
Six Day War site
Middle East Piece
10 Facts about the Arab-Israeli Conflict
gravenimage says
RCCA, there are many Christians and secularists who are just as clueless as many Jewish people when it comes to Islam. I was *not* comparing Jews to Muslims.
Charli Main says
A long while back, I worked in the office of an American oil company with a lady who claimed to be an Israeli born Jew.
She was literally fanatical in her support of the ” poor Palestinians ” and her vitriolic hatred of the ” brutal, Nazi ” Israeli Knesset was awesome. !!!!!
She appeared to be totally clueless, as to what the ” poor Palestinians ” would do to her, if they ever got their hands on her, on a dark night.
Some people are beyond understanding———.
Mo says
Oh, great. More garbage from which we will need to disabuse people. I’d bet anything this man hasn’t even READ either the Bible or the Quran! And neither will all those who will believe this nonsense.
Common sense tells you that the Bible is much longer than the Quran, that simply identifying words doesn’t give context to how those words are being used, or anything else!
I am so sick and tired of nonsense like this being promoted. But I am even more sick and tired of people who are so incapable of rational thought that the problems with this so-called experiment don’t even come to their minds.
Mark Swan says
You Nailed it Mo…Tom Anderson is a little disingenuous…why he did this Nonsense…who knows.
However, he adds: “First, I want to make very clear that we have not set out to prove or disprove that Islam is more violent than other religions.
I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive. Ours is a 30,000-ft, cursory view of three texts: the Quran and the Old and New Testaments, respectively.”
Approximately 807,000 Bible words
Approximately 70,000 Quran words
Angemon says
Not trying to disrespect to a fellow software engineer – and I am certainly not criticizing his software or his skills as a software engineer – but his methodology is flawed. Counting and categorizing words means nothing to the goal he set himself up to achieve. That’s like counting the number of guns per capita in the United States of America and Honduras and concluding that the US is a much more violent nation because it has more firearms per capita (112.6 guns per 100 residents versus Honduras’ 6.2).*
This kind of erroneous methodology and analysis infuriates me because it amounts no nothing less than intentional deception.
*For the record, the US has a rate of 3.8 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants versus Honduras’ 84.3
mortimer says
Angemon wrote: “This kind of erroneous methodology and analysis infuriates me because it amounts no nothing less than intentional deception.”
IMHO, the chief difficulty in using ’emotional’ word analysis is that the Koran disguises its cruel intentions by the use of EUPHEMISMS, which hide its raw hatred, violence, enslavement, misogyny, racism, violence, etc. For instance, nowhere is the word ‘rape’ used in the Koran, but it is approved. Nowhere is the word ‘torture’ used in the Koran, but Mohammed authorized it. Nowhere is the word ‘vigilante’ used in the Koran, but vigilantism was encouraged and approved by Mohammed. The Koran calls slaves ‘maids of the right hand’, a curious way of saying ‘sex slave’. There is no mention either of ‘eunuchs’ in the Koran, but thousands of castrated black males served wealthy Arabs through the centuries and black eunuchs guarded the holy sites in Arabia until the 1960s. There is no mention of pedophilia in the Koran, but it is normative Islam, rather than an aberration…both male and female.
The truth about Islam is hidden behind EUPHEMISMS that mask the evil, cruel, harsh and backward realities of this Death Cult.
Furthermore, by the SUNNA is of equal value to the Koran in creating Islamic doctrine. By excluding the hadiths and the Sira from his study, Tom Anderson is guilty of using selective data.
worldcitizen1919 says
To the Baha’is both the Quran and the Bible are the Word of God and we defend both equally.
Despite verses like these in the Bible Baha’is accept God’s Will and defend it fiercely even though we may not understand it fully like in passages like this.
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
1SA15.2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 1SA15.3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Exodus 32:27-29
Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ “The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
mortimer says
The Koran contains no expression of the Golden Rule, but many expressions of bigotry against those who disbelieve Mohammed. It is impossible that such expressions of hatred towards God’s creatures could be from the Deity. You are deceived and unable to think critically.
Western Canadian says
Do you really think you have any impact on anyone on this board, other than the pity and contempt that your pathetic and childish (as well as dishonest and mentally unbalanced) drivel produces. You are pathetically ignorant, and/or sickeningly dishonest. Go far, far, away. And stay there.
worldcitizen1919 says
We all have differing views and opinions. It’s part of freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
Western Canadian says
Hey, maybe if you quit ‘quoting’ the Bible, in a manner which deliberately misleads or misrepresents what it actually says, as you just in in your above dishonest ‘post’, maybe you can talk about ‘opinions’, as opposed to bare faced lies??
Sandra Lee Smiths says
We humans all have differing views and opinions; but Yhwh God doesn’t! He’s “the same yesterday, today and forever”. And it’s HIS opinion and view that matters, not yours or mine or any other human’s.
gravenimage says
Notice that while “worldcitizen1919” claims to defend the Bible and Qur’an equally, he only mentions violent passages from the Bible.
The fact is that “worldcitizen1919” spends all his time here defending the horrifically violent Qur’an and the vicious warlord Muhammed.
worldcitizen1919 wrote:
We all have differing views and opinions. It’s part of freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
…………………………..
Part of that freedom of speech is calling the meretrious on their bullsh*t. “worldcitizen1919” is always claiming he is being denied his freedom of speech here because others dare to exercise *their* freedom of speech.
Does it surprise anyone here that this Muslim apologist understands nothing about freedom of speech?
worldcitizen1919 says
The Quran only permits defensive warfare. Taking the verses out of context doesn’t change that every verse to attack is in response to having been attacked and routed from their homes and efforts of genocide.
You want them to say what they don’t say I can’t help that. As stated the Quran only supports defensive warfare.
Any response is based upon having been attacked first.
There is no verse in the Quran that says to go and split open pregnant women’s stomachs. If so please show it to me. Show me where the Quran says to go massacre children and infants.
If you say I’m not being fair thrn show me these things about ripping up pregnant women’s a stomachs and killing infants. They’re not there.
All you can CLING Ono is verses out of context like kill them wherever you find them which is preceded by the verse not to attack first. Thrn kill WHO. Kill those who have attacked and oppressed.
There is NO permission given in the Quran for offensive warfare.
They changed the rules after Muhammad died but we are comparing both the Bible and Quran and as I said Baha’is defend both but you can’t find those same verses in the Bible in the Quran because they’re not there and I can’t manufacture them just because you want thrm to be there.
You look at Suras like 5:33 and again it’s conditional upon those attacking the Muslims first.
War is war. I’d the oppressors were going to continue to kill and attack Muslims then they would be repaid in kind.
Wellington says
Defensive warfare, my butt. At the very least, anything, ANYTHING, which insults or impedes the spread of Islam can lead to a claim that warfare on the kuffaar is purely defensive.
Islam plays many word games. So do you. Shame on you both.
Annak says
If Muslims were only defensive how come their very recent religion 600 years after Christ ! took over all the countries they did whilst the Hebrews were only to DEFEND the country they were given and this is obvious ? Hebrews were not told to take over countries for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and force all to worship Him.
The great historically-proven civilisations of Persia, Egypt and the Byzantine Empire, were all taken by Islam’s sword of Jihad and so were parts of Africa, Asia and Europe .
Why would all those surrounding countries start attacking Muhammad ? What would they gain as he had nothing to offer great civilisations and was very insignifant really, so much so he was eventually chased out as he irritated everyone with his ” new revelations “hiwever well-intentioned at the time. He returned not peacefully but in bloody vengeance , with an army and finally looting and slaughtering with his band of warriors took over the Arab peninsular where Jews Christians and pagans lived in relative peace and prosperity All this is very recent history compared to the times of the ancient religions, and so tons of accurate intact accounts exist to PROVE this !
The truth is Muslims relentlessly attacked, the others defended and wars lasted for centuries until Jihadists finally won.
Eventually the unwelcome Muslims were kicked out of Spain, but they remained in above mentioned countries still spreading their tentacles of subjugation and tyranny.
As your knowledge of factual history is limited, I recommend you visit :
Historyofjihad.org
worldcitizen1919 says
This subject here is not about Muslims or history but the Quran and the Quran itself only taught the Muslims to defend against genocide.
What you speak of came after Muhammad died and they began to ignore the Quran and make up the rules for themselves amongst the rules was offensive warfare in direct conflict with the teachings of the Quran.
Dennis says
How defensive is the Muslim bomber who blows up Muslim women and children in street markets?
worldcitizen1919 says
We’re talking about the Quran here and that’s not supported in the Quran and viewed as mass murder according to Quranic law.
Whatever these terrorists are being told it’s not the truth because murder is evil.
worldcitizen1919 says
That one person represents 1.6 billion people? Now I’ve heard everything.
Nowhere does the Wuran say to attack innocent civilians. Whatever he was taught it’s not in accordance with the Quran. He’s a mass murderer in Quranic law nothing less and what he did was evil and satanic.
Annak says
World citizen, you are promised 72 virgins if you lose in battle attacking caravans. If your ancestors won they had to give a percentage of booty to the chief war-Lord, the epileptic Mohammad
( an affliction we understand and treat today as causing hallucinations) including sex-slaves. If they lost they were promised virgins in the heavenly brothel as compensation. All a delusion from the mind the “prophet” as the only sort of heaven he could envisage.
Totally non-spiritual.
And if you dare to keave Islam ir do not ibey the commands if warring for alkah you will be ounished sevrely, in this life and the next.
Plenty of incentive there for attacking ?
You have been fooled,
worldcitizen1919 says
I choose to leave Islam and be killed. All Baha’is chose that path to rather die than kill someone.
worldcitizen1919 says
The bottom line is though they were allowed to attack caravan’s of people they were at war with. They didn’t attack allies caravans.
War is war.
Annak says
Sorry for typo’s, I am always at ” war” with touchscreen !
worldcitizen1919 says
My iPad is always embarrassing me by changing words.
kessler says
How about the three Jewish tribes of Medina, who were cleansed because they had rejected Muhammad’s claims of prophethood?
How about the Battle of Badr, in which Muhammad sent his men out to raid caravans, then deliberately provoked a battle with the Meccan army sent out to defend them?
How about the fate of Banu Mustaliq, an Arab tribe?
“The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives” (Bukhari 46:717)”
Sahih Muslim 3371 – what does raping a female captive have to do with self-defense?
How about the revenge attack on the Lihyan?
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 718
Towards the end of his life, Muhammed military campaigns were mainly for the purpose of spreading Islamic rule.
There are countless other examples of non-defensive violence in the Quran. You should read it one day
worldcitizen1919 says
A lot of these stories were written down over 100 years after the event and are not reliable sources despite people be living them. That is why Baha’is give no credence to Hadiths as so many have been proven to be forgeries and yet others written by enemies of Islam and passed as authentic.
These kinds of atrocities you describe were completely against the nature of Muhammad and I don’t accept them as having merit because they are diametrically opposed to both the Quran’s laws.
In the Quran it says in numerous passages that if there is no attack or if the enemy ceases hostilities then the zmuslimsmare not to carry on the fight but to seek peace.
But I can’t stop people from believing these stories.
gravenimage says
More crap from “worldcitizen1919”:
All you can CLING (sic) Ono (sic) is verses out of context like kill them wherever you find them which is preceded by the verse not to attack first.
………………………….
What absolute rot–and so easily disproven:
Qur’an 9:29 reads:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – fight until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”
This is proceeded by Qur’an 9:28, which reads:
“O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their final year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.”
The idea that either of these passages talks about defensive warfare is utterly false–it just talks about how “unclean” non-Muslims are, and how they must be conquered and humiliated.
Why does “worldcitizen1919” even bother spreading his falsehoods here?
And then he again spouts the idea that is is only the Hadith that are violent, when the Qur’an itself is hideously violent.
worldcitizen1919 says
The point you’re missing AGAIN about said verse is that these are the people who have been oppressing and first began killing Muslims from the very beginning. There is a war ongoing.
You’re making the mistake of looking at each EVENT instead of realising it’s an ONGOING war that began with the Quraysh starting hostilities and oppression in Mecca and that Muhammad didn’t respond for 13 years until He had a force to be able to defend themselves.
You breaking up each verse as if there’s no war going on. There is an ongoing war all through the Quran and it began in Mecca when the Quraysh began oppressing and started to attack Muslims so they had to flee. From that moment on war was on and no matter which verse is stipulated Muslims are free to fight their oppressors.
But they still never attacked first as that is the law laid down in the Quran. Yes they fought and killed unbelievers but WHO? Those who had been killing them in the first place.
Like Pearl Harbour. The Japanese attack so America is at war with Japan no holds barred not even NUKES. No matter where they encountered the Japanese the Americans fought them because they had attacked America.
Please read Islamic history. Muhammad and his followers were tortured and oppressed and attacked for 13 years in Mecca until they were forced for their survival to flee. Then when Muhammad had a force large enough He defended and fought against the aggressors until they were defeated like the Americans s fought against the Japanese until they surrendered.
You honestly expect Muhammad just to allow the Meccans and Quraysh to commit genocide a war crime today and wipe out all Muslims?? He had no choice but to fight to the death or be destroyed. It was a war to the death.
It’s not so hard to understand if you look at the big picture and what happened at that time.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The only people “killing Muslims from the beginning” were people who didn’t want to convert from the beginning; and that’s STILL true today!
worldcitizen1919 says
Read the history. It was the Muslims who fled not the all powerful Meccans.
Sandra Lee Smith says
I have read history; that departure was merely temporary. As soon as he’d gathered more thugs to himself, Muhammad went back to Mecca and SLAUGHTERED every man, woman, and child who didn’t convert to his way! BTW, are you aware that the hajj is to worship a chunk of space debris? Judaism and Christianity have a word for that: idolatry!
worldcitizen1919 says
When I visited the birth place of Christ I bowed down as an act of acknowledgement and humility. I was not idol worshipping.
Sandra Lee Smithss says
The alleged birthplace of Jesus doesn’t contain a chunk of space junk in it either. It’s simply a spot on a tourist map, and very likely not the actual site in which He was born anyway. That’s neither here nor there. Christians are not required or expected to make pilgrimage to bow down at that site, as Muslims are to make hajj to bow down to and worship a rock that fell out of space.
gravenimage says
worldcitizen1919 wrote:
The point you’re missing AGAIN about said verse is that these are the people who have been oppressing and first began killing Muslims from the very beginning. There is a war ongoing.
………………………………..
You said that each genocidal verse was immediately preceded by one noting this was only in cases of defensive warfare. I disproved that, above.
The fact is that Qur’an 9:28-29 refer to “those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day”–i.e., simply any non-Muslims, *not* to those who have attacked Muslims.
It refers to murdering such people until they willingly pay Jizya “willingly while they are humbled”–that is, become second class citizens under the Muslim boot. There is *nothing* “defensive” about this. This is, in fact, as aggressive as it gets.
More:
Like Pearl Harbour. The Japanese attack so America is at war with Japan no holds barred not even NUKES. No matter where they encountered the Japanese the Americans fought them because they had attacked America.
Please read Islamic history. Muhammad and his followers were tortured and oppressed and attacked for 13 years in Mecca until they were forced for their survival to flee. Then when Muhammad had a force large enough He defended and fought against the aggressors until they were defeated like the Americans s fought against the Japanese until they surrendered.
………………………………..
America fought back against Japan until they stopped attacking us–then we stopped. We did not then humiliate the Japanese and use them as slaves, and it is grotesque to imply that we did. In fact, we spent our *own* money getting them back on their feet, and were so successfulin this that by the 1970s they were often our economic and technological rivals, which ultimately benefited everyone.
You *cannot* say the same for the slaves and dhimmis of Muslims.
More:
You honestly expect Muhammad just to allow the Meccans and Quraysh to commit genocide a war crime today and wipe out all Muslims?? He had no choice but to fight to the death or be destroyed. It was a war to the death.
………………………………..
The idea that every single Christian, Jew, and Pagan in Arabia tried to wipe out Muslims is just utter bullsh*t–this isn’t “Islamic history”–whatever that means–it is not history at all. It is completely false *even by the writings of the Qur’an. And yet, all of these people were either driven out, forced to convert to Islam, or slaughtered outright.
If you are so sanguine about Muslim genocide, why do you protest about pious Muslims trying to butcher the Baha’I?
No doubt you will say that you deserve to be spared because you so thoroughly toady to Islam. But the fact is that many Infidels in Medina did just that–but it did not spare them in the end.
worldcitizen1919 says
I didn’t say every verse was preceded by a verse only to attack in self defense but that the parameters for the entire war were laid out as being self defensive in nature.
2:190 revealed in Medina set the course of the entire war which she says do not attack unless attacked first God loves not such injustice and that applied all throughout the war.
When the Quran says to attack sometimes it terms the enemy as unbelievers and sometimes in other ways but it is always referring to those who have attacked and oppressed the Muslims and those who have joined them including Jews and Christians. Those Jews and Christians who did not join against the zmuslimsmare not harmed.
DEFENSIVE WAR
2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
8:61 If they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.
60:8 8. As for those who have not fought against you for your religion, nor expelled you from your homes, God does not prohibit you from dealing with them kindly and equitably. God loves the equitable.
4:94 O you who believe! When you go forth in the way of God, be discerning, and say not unto him who offers you peace, “You are not a believer,” seeking the ephemeralities of the life of this world, for with God are abundant spoils.
22:39 Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged—God has the power to help them—40 those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where God’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed.
Western Canadian says
Absolutely amazing the way this liar and loser will spend so much time, being blown out of the water and shown to be best be a delusional fool or a liar and a fool by everyone else on this board. If he could harness the energy he is wasting here, it would be enough to meet the total needs of a small city……
Western Canadian says
T a truly devout muslim, like Citizen of the voice here, merely saying ‘no’ to converting to the hate cult called islam (RTC), is considered a threat, which justifies ‘defensive’ warfare. Criminals, every one of them!
Champ says
I am so sick and tired of the *distortions* from “worldcitizen1919”!
kessler says
“A lot of these stories were written down over 100 years after the event and are not reliable sources despite people be living them. That is why Baha’is give no credence to Hadiths as so many have been proven to be forgeries and yet others written by enemies of Islam and passed as authentic.”
————–
Who cares what Bahai’s believe?!? What matters is what Muslims believe, particularly those motivated by Islamic theology to wage Jihad and spread their fascist ideology.
“These kinds of atrocities you describe were completely against the nature of Muhammad and I don’t accept them as having merit because they are diametrically opposed to both the Quran’s laws.”
————–
There are numerous verses proving Muhammed was a warlord – a very successful one – and the entire jihad doctrine is based on Islamic supremacy. This supremacy was made a reality through war. Islam was spread by the sword, subjugation/dhimmitude not peace and tolerance.
Defensive Jihad can be waged legitimately against anyone considered “enemies of Allah”. Non-muslims. Hence why ISIS can argue their defensive war
worldcitizen1919 says
You have a legitimate point with Isis only that they give themselves away by attacking civilians which is against Quranic law. In the Quran Muslims are only supposed to defend against attacks from combatants not attack women and children or civilians which Isis do. So their claim of self defense doesn’t stand up to Quranic scrutiny as they attack civilians.
But it’s a good point you make.
gravenimage says
So am I. Champ.
worldcitizen1919 says
They are not distortions but the truth which you love to hate.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
They ARE distortions passed through your “rose colored glasses” that think there is a way to reconcile things that are, by their nature, inherently irreconcilable! The ONLY possible way for you to do that is to pick and choose passages from any and all holy writings that fit your preconceived image of what should be. Whether YOU, or those you follow, are the one(-s) actually doing so makes no difference; the fact is that’s what’s being done. I’ve studied world religions individually, for decades; most do contain SOME small kernels of similar truths, but those aren’t sufficient around which to build anything but mystery Babylon; which, in fact, Jesus did prophesy, via John, to whom He showed it. But, and here’s the important part: mystery Babylon is NOT a good thing; it’s not a healthy blending of belief systems that will bring peace and harmony. Rather, it’s wholly Satanic in origin and nature, and will be the destruction of all who follow it. So when I said Baha’i was leading into that, it wasn’t a compliment; but that is the position you and those like you are assuming by your own choices.
God will never cross your free will, even to save your soul; neither will He condemn you or anyone else. Rather, it’s your choices in this life that will do so. You may want to seriously rethink your position; is appeasing Islam worth your immortal soul?
worldcitizen1919 says
I’m not appeasing Islam keeping my covenant with Jesus and remaining faithful to Jesus Christ by accepting the One He promised to send after Him, Muhammad.
If I were to turn against Muhammad like you then I would be betraying Jesus and better I weren’t born than do that so sorry maybe you can do that but I cannot as I love Jesus with all my life and soul and heart and will never betray him just to jump on a popular Muslim and Quran and Muhammad bashing bandwagon.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The ONLY One Jesus promised to send after Himself was NOT Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, or any other human “prophet”; He was, in fact, the Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus did send on Pentecost after His resurrection, and ascension; and Who subsequently comes to every repentant believer since,individually! In fact, Jesus specifically said there would be NO further “revelatory” prophets after Himself; that He had given us all we needed to know; and the Holy Spirit would enable us to understand it as we were ready and able to do so. Therefore, following after ANY of those subsequent “prophets” is, in fact, ERROR!
worldcitizen1919 says
That’s just your interpretation.
Did Caiphas get his interpretation right with Christ?
The most learned men of His day condemned Cnrist to death just as you are doing with Muhammad and Baha’u’llah claiming them to be false. Without any proof except a false interpretation that comes from the leadership of the churches who of course would never hand over power to another prophet.
Caiphas condemned Christ. Christians condemn Mihammad and Baha’u’llah. No difference.
gravenimage says
kessler wrote:
Who cares what Bahai’s believe?!? What matters is what Muslims believe, particularly those motivated by Islamic theology to wage Jihad and spread their fascist ideology.
……………………
This is true, kessler. But a Baha’i like “worldcitizen1919” serves exactly the same function a Taqiyya-spewing Muslim does–to try to lull Infidels into a false sense of security regarding Islam being a “religion of peace”. The effect of this, if accepted by the ignorant or overly hopeful is to prevent us from defending ourselves against Jihad.
gravenimage says
“worldcitizen1919” is here pretending that kessler accepts his meretricious twaddle, which he clearly does not.
Champ says
“worldclassclown” wrote:
They are not distortions but the truth which you love to hate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What a load of malarkey!
This guy is a clown AND a fool–and he’s delusional, too. A *dangerous* combination, to be sure.
GET. LOST.
worldcitizen1919 says
Ok. If you’re so smart then you tell me what you know about my beliefs if anything.
And I’m speaking about our official beliefs. Do you know we are persecuted in Iran?
https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-iranian-bahais#wMGbMe05Qtlw6SAb.97
You’re confusing Baha’is with Muslims. You should be able to tell the difference if you know anything about us at all.
worldcitizen1919 says
It’s you guys who are the world class clowns by supporting your Mulla friends in Iran who would just love you for saying the kinds of things you say to Bahais online.They would probably award you a medal in their service.
IF you had any idea who the Baha’is really are and what horrible persecution they have gone through for over a century and a half you would be the LAST ONE to criticise them publicly as you are just supporting the regime in Iran which if that is what you want then what are you doing here attacking Jihadists because Iran is the number one supporter of terrorism in the world???
https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-iranian-bahais/united-nations-documents-referencing-bahai-community#wl3BcmTUyexl3xWz.97
https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-bahais-iran#UzkeRLCOOzZDqtuz.97
Sandra Lee Smith says
Since Islam hates everyone NOT Islam, you’re the ones fooling yourselves to keep standing up for the Muslims. We’re just telling you the truthful fact that what you’re clinging to is not a healthy path for any, that it won’t achieve what you think it will.
worldcitizen1919 says
I appreciate that but what will violence, hate, war and prejudice achieve that dialogue and reconciliation won’t?
We don’t want more bloodshed. To hate more on each will just provoke more violence. Can’t you see that dialogue and reconciliation is better?
Take Syria, wouldn’t it be better if they tried to sort out their differences across the conference table than on a battlefield where babies, women and men are getting killed?
What’s the point of the hate there? Everyone’s losing.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The last time we used those tactics that you so deplore it took from 1802 to 1970 before the Muslims DARED attack US transport and citizens again; so just maybe there’s some value where you don’t see it, in “explaining” NO in terms they comprehend? Dialogue had already failed in 1802, and it IS failing again, because Islam doesn’t dialogue; they dictate!
Western Canadian says
We see and are disgusted by your posts, due to your astounding level of ignorance about the Bible, and your foaming at the mouth eagerness to tell bare faced lies about the filthy and hate filled, unholy koran. Hey, maybe if you didn’t lie so much and insult people with your sickening ignorance about Christianity, just maybe people wouldn’t have so much well deserved contempt for you and the drivel yo post!!
Think about it!! A new way to win friends!! Don’t lie to people and treat them like morons!! Try it!!
Kepha says
World Citizen:
About the Bible and the ripping open of pregnant women, you show you are absolutely ignorant of the contexts.
Hosea’s prophecy speaks of the coming downfall of the northern kingdom of Israel–the fruit of Jeroboam the son of Nebat’s setting up of golden calves to worship (I Kings 12:25-35). Further, re Hosea 13:16 and Amos 1:13 (against Ammon, in today’s Transjordan), this was divine retribution for the acts of Menahem ben Gadi mentioned in II Kings 15:16. Menahem was one of Israel’s “revolutionary” kings, taking power through coup and assassination; and it specifically mentioned his ripping open pregnant women when he took the city of Tirzah. God’s verdict on Menahem is “he did that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah: he departed not all his days from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat wherewith he made Israel to sin (II Kgs. 15:18).
These scarcely constitute justification for Christians (or Jews) to rip open pregnant women. BTW, there are old Armenians and Assyrians out there who recall Muslims doing that to their women back in the Anatolian horrors and Seyfo.
If you read Hosea and Amos, you will see that these men are God’s lawyers, reading the charges and penalties against a covenant-breaking nation.
And you do not know that these biblical stories were written a hundred years after the event–and neither did the 19th century German critics who bequeathed such nonsense to the world in order to make the Bible and the history of religions fit Georg Hegel’s tidy thesis-antithesis-synthesis dialectic.
Getting back to Old Testament violence:
What else can you do with people who would bring liberated Israel back to Egyptian bondage and idolatry, thus taking it from its mission of providing the Savior of the human race? Idolatry goes all the way back to the old serpent telling Eve “Ye shall be as gods”; and its corrupt fruit is a whole catalogue of other sins against God and man.
Further, the shocking bans on Canaan and the rebels in the wilderness are reminders that just as there are criminal individuals, there are also criminal families, tribes, and nations. One thing that the Old Testament history books teach us plainly is that Israel and Judah themselves fell into that situation, which is why the exile to Babylon was necessary. True, God graciously restored Judah and did indeed send the Messiah. But the lesson here is that great blessings do not excuse us from being faithful.
And, since you have kindly directed me to the Kitab-e-Iqan–
Maybe you need to graduate from the “halting between two opinions” which Bahai represents.
I think that it is clear from the discussions on whether or not Muslims and Christians worship the same God that there are important, irreconcilable contradictions between Bible and Qur’an; and that the Bahai faith does not really overcome these (its attempt to do so is to deny and change important teachings of the Bible).
Further, there’s an important point in which Bible and Qur’an differ: how they view their respective “Chosen Peoples”.
Al-Imran (Sura 3) 110 congratulates Muslims on being the best of people ever to be raised up on the earth. The early chapters of Deuteronomy remind Israel of their potential for sin, and that their election is of God’s grace, not their own merit. This is repeated to Christians throughout the New Testament.
It seems that the self-righteousness of Islam comes through in your Bahai reading of the Biblical prophets. You seem to assume that the ripping open of pregnant women is a license given to Israel (as violent jihad, looting, and raping of the Kufr is for Muslims), when it is evident if you read in context that it is a sentence pronounced on apostate Israel and evidence of Israel’s abandonment of its God. Then again, Rousseau-ites and other “endarkenment” thnkers who believe in the basic goodness of man at this stage in his history make when they read the Bible, too. They transfer their own self-righteousness and self-congratulation to the Israelites of old.
And since I mentioned Al-Imran in the Qur’an, how can both this chapter, which makes Mrs. Amram (Imran to the Arabs) the mother of Maryam the mother Jesus, and the Bible, which separates these holy women by 1400 or so years, both be true? How can the Qur’an’s denial of the crucifixion and its crucial (pun intended) place in New Testament teaching both be true? Kitab-e-Iqan can reconcile these only by twisting them into unrecognizable shapes.
World Citizen, the Son of Man came to give his life a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). he was shown to be the Son of God in power through his resurrection from the dead (cf. Psalm 16; Ac. 2; Rom. 1). Nuhammad, the Bab, and Baha’ullah, however, all rest in their graves awaiting the general resurrection and judgment we all must face. who’s got more for you?
worldcitizen1919 says
My purpose was only to show that there are violent occurrences that happened in Biblical history but I still stand by the Bible as we believe it is the Word of God.
On the crucifixion both thenQuran and the Bible and the Bahai Writings are in accord.
“The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two. ( Lights of Guidance)
As to resurrection. All the Manifestations of Fod are resurrected not only Christ. Proof of this is that there memory and teachings and words endure in the hearts of people.
Baha’u’llah was foretold by Christ and Christians have prayed for centuries for the Father to bring His Kingdom yet when He brung His Kingdom with that which wasn’t according to the limited learning of men they objected and called Him false.
Every Christian who rejects Baha’u’llah also rejects Christ.
“Say, O followers of the Son! Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness. (Bahaullah)
mortimer says
Worldcitizen, You have no idea what Muslim scholars have said about their religion. You are unlearned, and yet, you present yourself as an authority based on reading pamphlets.
Let the Islamic scholars explain Islam. They have done so correctly. The jihadists understand Islam PERFECTLY. You do not.
You’re out of your depth here.
worldcitizen1919 says
This is my humble understanding of who is truly knowledgable.
“Consider, how can he that faileth in the day of God’s Revelation to attain unto the grace of the “Divine Presence” and to recognize His Manifestation, be justly called learned, though he may have spent aeons in the pursuit of knowledge, and acquired all the limited and material learning of men? It is surely evident that he can in no wise be regarded as possessed of true knowledge. Whereas, the most unlettered of all men, if he be honoured with this supreme distinction, he verily is accounted as one of those divinely-learned men whose knowledge is of God; for such a man hath attained the acme of knowledge, and hath reached the furthermost summit of learning.
(“The Kitáb-i-Íqán” (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1983), pp. 145–146) [10]
Kepha says
World Citizen wrote:
“The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two. ( Lights of Guidance)
As to resurrection. All the Manifestations of Fod are resurrected not only Christ. Proof of this is that there memory and teachings and words endure in the hearts of people.
I rest my case that the Bahais can reconcile Bible and Qur’an only by twisting them.
worldcitizen1919 says
Hi Kepha,
Maybe you see it as twisting but we see it as reconciliation and a way whereby Muslims and Christians can accept each other as all men are created in the image of God and so how regrettable if a passage of scripture divided them when they can very easily both have their understandings and be united.
Baha’is are more Christian than most Christians give us credit for.
Here’s what we believe about Christianity
1643. The Bahá’í Faith Recognizes the Divine Origin of Christianity and the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the ‘Spirit of God,’ is proclaimed as the One Who ‘appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,’ and is even extolled as the ‘Essence of the Spirit’. His mother is described as ‘that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance,’ and the station of her Son eulogized as a ‘station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth’, whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused ‘the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth’.…”
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110)
Here’s the full passage.msee the heading? Baha’is don’t compromise of the Binle’s view at all.
The Crucifixion as Recorded in the New Testament is Correct
… Though we cannot imagine exactly what the Manifestations of the remote past were like, we can be sure of two things: They must have been able to reach their fellow-men in a normal manner—as Bahá’u’lláh reached His generation, and They were sent from God and thus Divine Beings. The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
“My purpose was only to show that there are violent occurrences that happened in Biblical history but I still stand by the Bible as we believe it is the Word of God.”
No you don’t. You just said in a different comment that you “belive in Muhammad and the Quran”. These are two conflicting faiths. That’s why Muslims are slaughtering Christians. If they believed the same things, why would they do that?
You know nothing about Islam. You know nothing about Christianity. You’re a liar and deceiver. Thank you for demonstrating that yet again.
By the way, still waiting for that evidence of anyone attacking your beliefs. (I know I will be kept waiting forever. )
worldcitizen1919 says
2,000 and 1,400 years later do you honestly expect to find these religions have not become corrupt by false teachings and ministers preaching politics?
There is no conflict between Christianity and Islam, the Quran and the Bible unless these religions have become corrupt which is the case. There are over 2.500 different sects of Christianity alone and many brands of Islam.
These people who fight and kill over religion are not truly religious for to be religious means to be virtuous and kind and to love all people.
It is very simple. How do we give equal status to both Books and have no conflict and no wars amongst us? Because both Books are from the same God.
I can’t understand how you can’t see any harmony between these Books.
So we have NO problems or conflicts between the Bible, Quran, Dhamapadda, Baghavad-Gita Baha’i Writings as they all come from the same God.
Those who see the differences are not looking for what they have in common. So that’s all they see. Blinded by bias.
To us They’re all One and from the same God just different teachings for different ages like the different classes in a school. They are complimentary.
All of these are truth. A lot of traditions and man made teachings have crept in but we can distinguish which is which.
. We all get criticised and all have the right to reply that’s all.
Sandra Lee Smith says
First, to be rligious merely means you’ve become ritualized; it can relate to many things, besides yor faith system. I “religiously” have taken calcium and magnesium supplements, since my 20s. Doesn’t mean I love them, or that I worship them.
Second, yes religions do become corrupted, easily, whereas faiths based on relationship seldom do.a
Thir, no matter HOW you try to twist them, Christianity and Islam will never share values, Deities, or anything else in common
worldcitizen1919 says
So you’re saying I don’t exist!! I’m doing it. I’m sharing values in common with the Bible and Quran and loving it as well as millions of other Baha’is that don’t exist to you who also share values with the Bible and Quran but I suppose the Bahai Faith is just imaginary and our World Centre on Mount Carmel Israel the vineyard of God doesn’t exist either!!!
So many millions of people share values between the Bible and Quran yet you say it’s impossible?? Hmmmm
And we all believe that Christ prophesied Muhammad too and are in complete unity with Jesus.
Sandra Lee Smith says
To say insistently that you “share values” between the Quran and the Bible. which are polar opposites in their values and standards, is to say that you have NO standards at all; because there is NO way to stand on both, and to claim that you do is to lie to yourself as well as everyone else to whom you proclaim it. In effect, you’re proclaiming that the print on this screen is both black and white at the same time; a physical impossibility as much as standing on the Quran and the Bible at the same time i
worldcitizen1919 says
Is anything beyond God’s reach to accomplish??
Can not God unite the religions if He so desires?
Ok. Mercy and justice are at opposing poles. So is one true and the other false?????
Mercy is required sometimes and also justice at others. They are both truth.
If God sent Jesus and Muhammad why can’t we say ‘yes’ to God instead of rebelling and only accepting what we like and rejecting the part we don’t want? Is that right to question God like that and rebel against Him.
God sent blessings and curses to Job and he accepted them both.
Over 1.5 billion people believe in Jeus because of Muhammad so He taught about Jesus to so many people yet you condemn Him. He is the greatest preacher of Christ and Christianity that ever lived.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
He has NO desire to “unite religions”; that’s where you’re off the track! The only one trying to unite religions is Satan. Yhwh has given His way to enter His kingdom; do it His way or there IS no entry, period.
worldcitizen1919 says
The Kingdom of God is promised in the Lord’s Prayer and that is what we Baha’is are establishing through the Father, Baha’u’llah.
It is to be expected people will oppose the Lord and the Kingdom of God.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The Kingdom of God is not, was never intended to be, and will not ever be, a “uniting” of religions; it’s the place where GOD’S will is done; not man’s, and religion is an HUMAN invention. Only those who CHOOSE the way Yhwh God has given us to enter His kingdom will get us there.
Western Canadian says
“”worldcitizen1919 says
February 13, 2016 at 9:54 am
So you’re saying I don’t exist!!”
No, unfortunately you do exist. You are at best completely delusional and an absolute and total fool. Or a lying muslim or muslim lackey. But, yes, sadly, you do exist.
“I’m doing it. I’m sharing values in common with the Bible and Quran”
Which is why we know you are either a liar, or a delusional fool. The Bible has no values in common with the filthy and hate filled koran. And no matter how much you lie or delude yourself, you remain a fool.
“and loving it as well as millions of other Baha’is that don’t exist to you who also share values with the Bible and Quran but I suppose the Bahai Faith is just imaginary and our World Centre on Mount Carmel Israel the vineyard of God doesn’t exist either!!!”
You might actually be impressed by this drivel, but contrary to what you seem to imply, it is not logical, or in anyway a valid argument. Again, delusional or lair, and on either count, a fool.
“So many millions of people share values between the Bible and Quran yet you say it’s impossible?? Hmmmm”
You believe that there are shared values in the Bible and the filthy koran? Hmmmm… An incredible delusion, a vicious lie, and an outstanding fool, either way.
“And we all believe that Christ prophesied Muhammad too and are in complete unity with Jesus.”
A vicious insult against Christ and Christians, one that stems from the vile and vicious koran… You really are a criminal, with the blood spilled by muslims for 14 centuries, on your hands.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Well said, Western Canadian. Spot on!
worldcitizen1919 says
Overwhelmed with all the compliments today.
I thought Christ said to love others. Maybe I was wrong and He meant it’s ok to hate on others. But I’m sure I read He said to be nice to others.
Maybe these aren’t really Christians but just people who like to mock and accuse and name call. Yes, they couldn’t be Christians because the Christians I know always treat me with courtesy and respect and never say such things to me and they know I’m a Baha’i. Nah! These people are not Christians becaus all the Christians I know treat me with so much courtesy and never say a harsh or rude word to me.
Sandra Lee Smith says
I guess you’ve never heard the expression “tough love”; that’s what you’re getting. Did you think Jesus was being all warm and fuzzy with the Pharisees when He called them whitewashed sepulchers full of dead men’s bones, and sons of Satan, or said that they’d never see heaven? He did say that, you know. Love can mean telling someone a truth he doesn’t want to hear; if that truth is what he NEEDS to hear.
worldcitizen1919 says
Well this is to be expected. But we are only 200 years old compared to Christianity’s 2000 years and more so I wouldn’t be writing off us Baha’is off just yet.
Many things said to me today have brought honour upon me. I really appreciate your and anyone’s criticism even though you’re all wrong!!!
“When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world”
Sandra Lee Smith says
I don’t have to “write you off”, you’ve done that yourselves, until and unless you choose to turn from the deceits you’re following, and follow Jesus’ way, fully and solely.
worldcitizen1919 says
You’re full of compliments today. LOL.
Your response just seems to be an emotional outburst rather than reasonable debate and discussion. Muhammad is just one Manifestation of God we believe in.
We believe in Jesus also. I’ve even went on pilgrimage to Jesus’s birthplace so I can only surmise that you are not understanding that Baha’is believe just as devoutly in Christ as well and defend the Bible just as much.
Sandra Lee Smith says
No; Muhammad is nothing but a brigand who got himself declared a prophet. He was the worst sort of human being, although not the only one of his caliber, unfortunately.
Western Canadian says
“Every Christian who rejects Baha’u’llah also rejects Christ.”
And you also insist on repeating the oft told (by muslims only) lie that Christ said mad mo would follow after him. I don’t know of any Christian or Jewish scripture, that says you must allow lairs and other deceivers (like you, for example) to spread their calumny without opposition… After all, Christ himself called out the pharisee and money lenders… He would no doubt do the same with mad Mo, and mad Mo’s followers… like you.
worldcitizen1919 says
Please rest assured. I not only expect criticism and to be fully scrutinised but welcome it. But try and get some offical knowledge about my religion from a proper source like one of the posters did here thrn you can really challenge me effectively.
But here’s every encouragement for you to continue to scrutinise
This is our view of the Bible but there are many more passages like this.
Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian
“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”
Abdu’l-Baha
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.” (Shoghi Effendi)
Sandra Lee Smith says
The Quran categorically DENIES the crucifixion and death of Jesus, whom they call Isa, as well as the resurrection, claiming He was simply ascended. But in so denying, they virulently deny the most foundational tenet of Christianity itself; ergo, there is and can never be any agreement between the 2, let alone what your Baha’ullah claims; which is a falsehood as well. If Jesus didn’t die on the cross, and pay the redemption price for my (your, and every individual’s) sins, then there IS NO FUTURE for humanity but eternal damnation, because we are all sinners and the price of that sin is eternal damnation.
Western Canadian says
OH, by the way, i never make claim to being a Christian, as much as I admire and respect the ones I have met throughout my life. They are without exception, stand up, generous and supportive people, who will offer a hand to anyone in need. Maybe I will become one some day, but I am not there at the moment. As for your deliberately insulting Christians, Jews, their holy books and beliefs, all the while lying about ‘respecting’ them….. you sound rather like a viper, to me…. Ever see the references to them in scripture? They are NOT to be embraced or welcomed.
worldcitizen1919 says
Ok sorry about that. Just disregard anything I posted about Christianity as I misread the post.
If you insist I’m a viper then to you I’m a viper. Judge me how you wish.
We have very good Jew and Christian friends and they love the Baha’is and don’t feel that way towards us.
Western Canadian says
No, you vile lying hypocrite!! Your only purpose is to whitewash by lying the vicious and hate filled unholy koran, while at the same time deliberately and willfully lying about what the Bible says, to try to make it wound as bad as the filthy and hate filled koran, actually is!! And you get caught and called out on it every time, then try to lie and weasel your way out of the lie!!! you are beyond pathetic!!
worldcitizen1919 says
Vile lying hypocrite, viper, criminal, murderer. Hmmmmm lets see…. Oh yes this has been explained to us like this a while ago………………..
“Erelong shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord … reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’” (Bahai Writings)
Western Canadian says
And again, more utter drivel from a islamic boot licker!!
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 14, 2016 at 1:58 am
Over 1.5 billion people believe in Jeus because of Muhammad so He taught about Jesus to so many people yet you condemn Him. He is the greatest preacher of Christ and Christianity that ever lived.”
Don’t know what drugs you have to take to believe dishonest slop like this, but we can safely say they are destroying your brain cells at an ever accelerating rate.
Mohamed was a filthy, ,sub animal rapist, slave taken, seller and holder, child abuser, mass murdering thug. If he even existed (and there is not a shred of evidence that he did), he was the filthiest creature to ever exist on this planet. That you are here to lie about it and him, and his filthy hate cult, tells anyone and everyone all they need to know about you, and your ‘beliefs’. You, and they, are less than worthless, they are a threat to human decency and human life. The sub animal child or step child of Satan they you endlessly praise, was a sworn enemy of all other belief systems (you may have heard of them, they IMPROVE the human condition, not work to degenerate and end it), declared war on them for the mere act of saying ‘No’ to conversion to it. You really are sick beyond words, lying about the butchery of 270,000,00 million human beings, the rape of hundreds of millions more, and slavery of untold millions. These are the things that true followers of the true islam and true mad moe embrace. Your lies change nothing.
“Baha’u’llah was foretold by Christ”
Along with your lie about claiming that Christ foretold mad moe, this is one of the most insulting lies you insist on telling about Him. Truly pathetic, and an extreme insult to Christians. But that is what you do. Lie, and insult Christians (as well as Jews).
“and Christians have prayed for centuries for the Father to bring His Kingdom yet when He brung His Kingdom with that which wasn’t according to the limited learning of men they objected and called Him false.”
Not called false, never heard of is more accurate. Is there anything you will not lie about or twist??
“Every Christian who rejects Baha’u’llah also rejects Christ.”
And again, a vicious and hate filled insult, to Christians everywhere.
As for your supposed ‘reconciliation’ of the vicious and hate filled islam and its hate filled murder manual, the unholy koran, with Christian belief and the Bible…..
You viciously distort and lie about the Bible, twisting it, misquoting it, torturing it to turn it into something that in your sick and ignorant mind, resembles what the vile and filthy koran actually is. At the same time, you sickeningly distort and lie about the filthy and hate filled koran, twisting it, misquoting it, whitewashing it to turn it into something that in your sick and ignorant mind, resembles something respectable and holy. Dragging the Bible down into a blood soaked gutter, while trying and failing to wash the centuries of blood off of the filthy and hate filled koran, is NOT reconciliation. It is an act of intellectual and ethical prostitution on your part, and those like you. It is a crime, against the Bible, the hundreds of millions of victims of the filthy and hate filled koran, and you do it with a smile on your lips. What more do we need to know about you?
worldcitizen1919 says
Why don’t you take this challenge. You sound courageous. The Book of Certitude (link below) explains how both the Bible and Quran confirm each other and how they are both true and both God’s Revelation. That is the source of my assertion that both Books are the Word of God.
“O ye leaders of religion! Who is the man amongst you that can rival Me in vision or insight? Where is he to be found that dareth to claim to be My equal in utterance or wisdom? No, by My Lord, the All-Merciful! All on the earth shall pass away; and this is the face of your Lord, the Almighty, the Well-Beloved.”
Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “The Kitab-i-Aqdas.” Bahá’í eBooks
The Book of Certitude
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html
Sandra Lee Smith says
This one, the words make sense, just reading on its face; but the actual meaning is a distortion of what Yhwh God says, none-the-less. It’s still an effort to make man’s will overwhelm Yhwh God’s will, and take precedence.
worldcitizen1919 says
If you can rival Baha’u’llah in wisdom then please take up His challenge. He’s challenging anyone and everyone and I suggest as you keep saying I’m twisting then you take on the Souce of my beliefs which is none other than Baha’u’llah.
If to you Baha’u’llah is just an ordinary man and not the Father or the Face of God thrn you should easily be able to take on His challenge.
Gather together the most knowledgeable people you can find and challenge His Knowledge and Wisdom.
“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation.” – Baha’u’llah
Sandra Lee Smiths says
Never met the dude; but I don’t rely on my wisdom when it comes to things spiritual in any case. I don’t have to “challenge” him to know when he says things contrary to what the Bible says, and I have read that numerous times in varied translations, including 1 in French, he’s in the wrong.
worldcitizen1919 says
Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ.
Christ commanded you to ‘watch and pray’ or you might have missed Him which you did because you never investigated the claims of Baha’u’llah.
This is a Tablet He wrote to Christians, also priests, bishops and clergy.
This is a letter from Christ to you and at least you can read it. It does you no harm.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html
Sandra Lee Smith says
Nope; he’s not the “2nd advent of Christ”! If he told you that; he’s a false prophet, and lying through his teeth! Jesus plainly said when He returns EVERY eye shall see it as you see lightning from the east to the west. We have only had the technology to make that possible for the past couple of decades, or a bit over. And before that happens He will call His own out in what we refer to as the Rapture, because we, in regenerate bodies will be returning with Him. Hasn’t happened yet. Also, there’ll be a massive earthquake in Jerusalem, when He sets foot again on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in 2; which hasn’t happened yet either.
Western Canadian says
I am not impressed by drivel. I have read both the Bible in various translations, and respect it greatly. It contains massive amounts of wisdom, and a few puzzles. I have also read the filthy and hate filled koran in various translations, and have found it to be an sickening, vicious, hate filled load of utter and complete rubbish and drivel. Your efforts to pretend that they can be reconciled, consist of lying about and smearing the Bible, trying to portray it as something as filthy and disgusting as well as full of hatred: To be a clone of the unholy koran. You try to reconcile the Koran to the Bible, by lying about its content, denying what it says, rewriting history in a failed attempt to support your dishonest efforts, and endlessly insulting Christians, Jews, and their holy books. That is not reconciliation, that is a criminal cover up of the real islam, at the expense of Jewish and Christian holy books and history.. You tell endless lies about mad mo, the most vicious sub-animal who ever existed, if he ever even did exist.
And what the hell makes you think I have not read your pathetic drivel, and rejected it as being every bit as pathetic as your delusional or dishonest posts???
You have no courage or integrity, I would suggest that you actually READ the Bible and the unholy and vicious koran, but you never will.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Just an FYI, on those puzzles you’ve encountered: when you read the Bible under the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, after repenting and asking for Jesus’ salvation, most of those puzzles are resolved fairly quickly. He answers those questions.
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
“To the Baha’is both the Quran and the Bible are the Word of God and we defend both equally.”
Which speaks to the fact that you have read neither book.
It also speaks to the incoherent nature of your religion. If you had read the Bible and the Quran (which you know you have not) you would know they teach opposite, conflicting, diametrically opposed things. And two opposite, conflicting, diametrically opposed cannot be true at the same time, in the same way. The Bible teaches Jesus was divine, that He died on the cross, that He rose again. The Quran teaches Jesus was a prophet, that he did not die on the cross, and did not rise from the dead. (Among many other conflicting things.)
Again, you’d know that, if you had ever read either book. You know you have not.
“Despite verses like these in the Bible Baha’is accept God’s Will and defend it fiercely even though we may not understand it fully like in passages like this.”
You’ve never read the Bible. You’ve never read the Quran. You know nothing about either religion.
Take your incomprehensible nonsense elsewhere already.
worldcitizen1919 says
Of course you can only see conflict and contradiction as that is the worldly, materialistic view not the spiritual view taught by Baha’u’llah which reconciles and unites these seemingly contradictory views.
Baha’is see humanity and religion with the eye of ‘oneness’ and unity. Ther is no real conflict if you have true knowledge.
Mo says
@ worldcitizen
“Of course you can only see conflict and contradiction as that is the worldly, materialistic view not the spiritual view taught by Baha’u’llah which reconciles and unites these seemingly contradictory views.”
There is no way to reconcile/unite two diametrically opposed/conflicting things. I cannot be both sitting at my computer, in my home typing this and also at a friend’s house at a party. I cannot be in two places at once. It’s a logical impossibility.
In the same way, the things I listed are logical impossibilities:
Either Jesus is divine, or he is not. He cannot be both, at the same time, in the same way. Either he was crucified, or he was not. He cannot have done both, at the same time, in the same way. Either he rose from the dead, or he did not. He cannot have done both, at the same time, in the same way.
You know these are logical impossibilities. You know that such things cannot be reconciled.
That’s why you didn’t do so
Take your nonsense elsewhere. I’ve had enough of it.
This place is called JIHAD WATCH. It’s a place to discuss Islam. It’s not a place for you to promote your incoherent religion.
Notice how you don’t deny you haven’t read the Bible or the Quran. You have not. And you know it! If you had, you wouldn’t be posting this nonsense over and over and over again.
Stop derailing this thread, and address ISLAM, the purpose of this post and this entire site!
worldcitizen1919 says
Very sorry you think that way. And yes I’ve read both the Bible and the Quran
Christ was Divine but He was a man also because He ate and drank and felt pain so He was both. You can crucify a body but in the Bible it says God is spirit and you can’t crucify a spirit so although Christ’s body was crucified His Spirit was not.
Again one can be a father and a son and many things and that is not contradictory.
About the forum. I belive in Muhammad and the Quran and they attack my beliefs. So I have evry right to put my views forward.
gravenimage says
“worldcitizen1919” wrote:
About the forum. I belive (sic) in Muhammad and the Quran and they attack my beliefs. So I have evry (sic) right to put my views forward.
…………………………..
You whitewash evil, and good Anti-Jihadists have very right to counter *that*.
worldcitizen1919 says
I am against terrorism like you. It’s a horror like a bad nightmare that won’t go away.
But I believe the cause of terrorism lies in violent Hadiths and hate speech spread by Mullas. Mullas and scholars have no authority from the Quran to speak but are a false Gods in Islam and Hadiths were written down almost 200 years after the event and they are not the Word of God and even many were created by enemies, another false idol in Islam.
When it comes to the Quran and Muhammad however, they are Both beyond reproach and I support them.
We only disagree on the causes of terrorism but it is fully agreed it is an evil and a Satan let loose that if not contained could bring us to another war.
Sandra Lee Smith says
GravenImage is correct: the 1 world religionist views of Baha’i cannot EVER “reconcile” the polar opposite views of Biblical Christianity and Islam; the 2 are simply NOT ” reconcilable”, any more than you can reconcile a positive and a negative charge, matter with antimatter, or good with evil.
worldcitizen1919 says
Then you’re saying we don’t exists. Because the Bahai Faith and the Bahai World Community is living proof that it works.
How am I able to reconcile the Bible and Quran?
First, one has to separate the man made stuff from what God ACTUALLY GAVE then reconciliation is a breeze.
Each age was given social and sometimes political laws but they were meant to be superseded by another revelation when their usefulness was exhausted. Despite religionists saying otherwise.
Which is why Christians await Christ and Muslims await the Great Announcemnt. The same thing, simply a revelation from God with new laws for this age.
If one takes out all the manmade garbage that religions have accumulated. The rituals and ceremonies and what priests and clergy have written and said we are left with GOD’s unadulterated religion. Now only a Manifestation has the wisdom to know which is which so Baha’u’llah came and He separated the two and so Baha’is are able to unity all religions and all people EASILY. No conflict. No contradiction. No dichotomies or paradoxes. One day MAYBE you will catch on?
Baha’is see the essence of each religion shorn of its impurities not the manmade stuff which is not the true religion that God gave. In other words we only believe and accept the part of each faith that GOD wrote not man.
It will take time but we are living proof it works.
Sandra Lee Smith says
No, I’m not saying you don’t exist; only that what you think you’re doing is nothing but a delusion based on a massive deceit; and the father of lies is as much at the root of it as he is at the root of Islam and mystery Babylon in general.
worldcitizen1919 says
God’s doing it as promised. You saying God doesn’t keep,His Promises? He said there will be one shepherd and one fold so now you are saying its a mockery and won’t work? You mock your own sciptures?? Hmmmmmm
Sandra Lee Smith says
Again, an effort to twist! Yhwh God is doing precisely what He foretold He was going to do; Islam is not included in the end equation; neither is any other religious system. But they will NOT be a blending or melding; there is only 1 way, a very narrow way with a strait gate; and only those who go in by that strait gate, HIs way will be part of it.
worldcitizen1919 says
The Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah reconciles these differences and unites the Quran and Bible.
Those that haven’t studied it they would have limited understanding and think we are just twisting.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
Which part of “there is no reconciling” is it you do NOT comprehend? Yhwh God is NOT interested in “reconciling” in the way you keep pushing; the only “reconciling” happened at Calvary, and the only way to access it is to repent (turn 180 degrees away from your present sinful thinking and behavior patterns and follow the ways HE specifically set forth as the ONLY path to redemption and salvation); there can be NO “integration” of different ideologies. The only “reconciling” is allowing humanity the 1 single, solitary way to access Him again, after the fall, when humanity first started listening to Lucifer/Satan instead of Him.
Western Canadian says
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 13, 2016 at 9:49 am
Then you’re saying we don’t exists. Because the Bahai Faith and the Bahai World Community is living proof that it works.
”
They are saying no such thing, that is merely an example of how muslims cannot argue with the truth, and have to twist and pervert things. We are for the most part saying that you are either a delusional fool, or a lying fool, Either way, you are truly disgusting.
“How am I able to reconcile the Bible and Quran?”
You cannot and you do not. You fail miserably, by lying about what the hate filled koran says, and failing miserably to understand the Bible.
“First, one has to separate the man made stuff from what God ACTUALLY GAVE then reconciliation is a breeze.”
You make claims, and fail to back them up. You have original copies of the filthy and hate filled koran? And copies of the Bible that predate the Red Sea scrolls? Of course not. All you have, are pathetic lies. Which you repeat to the point of nauseating people .
“Each age was given social and sometimes political laws but they were meant to be superseded by another revelation when their usefulness was exhausted. Despite religionists saying otherwise.”
Another example of your lying, or your ignorance. Ever hear of the NEW Testament??
“Which is why Christians await Christ and Muslims await the Great Announcemnt. The same thing, simply a revelation from God with new laws for this age.”
The muslims await success in slaughtering all non-muslims, and stealing what their victims have worked and built. Not quite the same…. actually, not even close.
And the rest of your post is just as pathetic, as are you.
Sandra Lee Smith says
WC, since Baha’i only cropped up some 2 centuries ago, give or take a bit, I doubt they have anything even as old as our Constitution, let alone to compare to the original Hadiths and Quran and the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Jewish Essenes. Not that those are actually necessary to see the extreme dichotomies between Judeo-Christianity and Islam, really. A simple reading of the personality descriptions in the holy books of each of the 3 systems shows that Judaism and Christianity follow the same Yhwh God, and that Allah is diametrically in opposition to Him; but luckily for us, his description DOES also occur in the Bible and Torah. The person so described is named in those texts as Lucifer, aka Satan, a created being who was kicked out of heaven for rebelling against Yhwh God. Need we ANY further proof that the 3 systems cannot be reconciled?
Western Canadian says
You can add 4100 years of violent history and 270,000,000 vicious murders. Case closed.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
I got my eyes checked and my prescription adjusted so I see quite clearly; and I have a basic understanding of the world’s major religions. There are far fewer points of agreement among them than there are bones of serious contention. That most can “coexist” without always killing each other attests to the social maturity of the cultures that spawned them; that Islam CANNOT coexist with any of them shows that it has NOT matured in the least as a culture and if after over a millenium, that hasn’t happened, it’s not apt to. That means it will NOT ever likely coexist with anyone else. However, further than that, the Bible clearly declares that EVERY knee will (not might) bow, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ (alone) is Lord (over all), a status that Islam categorically also denies, and, by extension, in supporting the Quranic version, so does Baha’i, that means that both will no longer exist past the return of Jesus to rule over this world.
worldcitizen1919 says
How did 12 disciples end up with Rome on their side?
You seem to make a mockery of God’s power to accomplish anything. If He wants He can easily accomplish the unity of religion and mankind.
The Power of God is that which created us so Has He not the power to unite the conflicting religions? Is the God you belive in that powerless?
I believe in Almighty God Who can do anything especially unite all the religions and it is being accomplished and will end up happening.
Sandra Lee Smith says
As Western Canadian, who seems to have a better grasp of the Bible and God’s Word, than you, for all he denies being a Christian, pointed out, those 12 didn’t win Rome; Rome KILLED them all. They preached the Gospel Jesus taught them, and it wasn’t very popular with Rome or the Pharisees. It was nearly 300 years later that Constantine declared “Christianity” ala what became the Roman Catholic church, the official religion of Rome as an empire; with the western empire already failing. The real gospel as Jesus taught it is intended to be a stumbling block to all who are unrepentant. In fact, the Bible so declares it, in so many words. That’s why so few actually embrace it and follow it.
Western Canadian says
DANG!! It should be 1400 years, not 4100!! The human race couldn’t survive 4100 years of the curse known as islam (RTC)!! We’d be lucky to survive much over 1500 years of it!!
Western Canadian says
“How did 12 disciples end up with Rome on their side?”
They didn’t. They were all long dead and gone before Rome got in on the act…
Again, your ignorance and/or dishonesty is showing.
worldcitizen1919 says
As if you’re not intelligent enough to know exactly what I meant. From 12 disciples grew the Faith of Christianity and spread all over the earth and even subdued its enemies.
Western Canadian says
And again, the islamic boot licker is back!!
“As if you’re not intelligent enough to know exactly what I meant. From 12 disciples grew the Faith of Christianity and spread all over the earth and even subdued its enemies.”
AS you have the bad habit of twisting anything and everything you come in contact with, your idiot previous comment was comment on…. The 12 did not get Rone on their side. You don’t seem to understand the language, or anything else, for that matter, which is another excellent comment on you lack of intelligence. Your lack of integrity, is also always on display.
revereridesagain says
Just a heads-up: A local FOX affiliate in Boston has apparntly been partnering with the Southern Poverty Law Center to spotlight “hate groups” in Massachusetts.
http://www.myfoxboston.com/news/fox25-investigates-finds-hate-groups-still-active-in-new-england-1/71419789
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/active-hate-groups-united-states-2014
Massachusetts isn’t listed under the “Anti-Muslim” designation of SPLC’s list. (Shame on us.) So FOX 25 can be expected to stick to “traditional” neo-Nazi, KKK, and the like, thereby granting SPLC more undeserved legitimization.
Matthieu Baudin says
“…There are no groups of Jews or Christians killing people and justifying their actions by referring to the Bible…”
The Lord Resistance Army of northern Uganda and territories in neighbouring countries may be an exception; it draws upon Old Testament sources to justify its actions but I understand also utilises some Islamic principles.
Returning to the main point, comparing the inherent violence of the Koran with the New and Old Testaments, the study cited is a bad joke, that I’m sure apologists for Islamic violence will be quick to quote. An open minded, randomised reading, of excerpts from the three texts, by a careful reader, will make it quite evident that the Koran is an almost unending tirade and an ethereal stage of violent struggle against the ‘enemies’ of Allah; in contrast, the moods of the Old Testament shift a great deal, sometimes Jehovah is angry and punishing but there is plenty of respite, calm reflection, introspection and humanity; the New Testament puts its gospel of love centre stage and rarely loses sight of it as its central principle.
Those who have no interest in an honest comparative portrayal of these three texts will employ any ‘counting’ format that suits their purpose and fudge violent elements by special pleading around issues of ‘context’.
Western Canadian says
The group you are referring to is about as Christian as the KKK or the SS… While they may on occasion refer to the OT, they do NOT follow it’s laws. This group is also reported to be funded, by muslims.
Matthieu Baudin says
I’ve never thought of them as Christian in any way and it wouldn’t surprise me, as you’ve suggested, that they are funded from Muslim sources. That it’s a hideous outfit is undeniable and to my way of thinking, even if they were to draw in part from OT scriptural sources it doesn’t dent the case that Islam is currently living out it’s violent passages and calls to violence in a way that isn’t matched by any other monotheistic religion or for that matter Buddhism or Hinduism.
So thanks for the welcome comments Western Canadian.
Oppressaphobe says
I think we have to distinguish groups that use violence as a means of getting what they want,
as opposed to groups that resort to violence to DEFEND ITSELF.
Many have pointed out that the crusades were the Christians finally rising up and defending their lands, their children and their wives from barbaric invaders.
It’s so typical for the left to blend these two distinctive groups in together. (the prayer breakfast, “Lest we get on our high horse”).
I’m sure that many misguided in the KKK thought they were protecting their wives and children, as they had heard stories of black men raping woman (true or not-they believed it). But did they have a plan to rule the world that would compare to the Caliphate?
I never heard about the KKK Caliphate. Yeah they protected their turf and their own and they were misguided and wrong. But did they have the agenda that Mohammed preached to make the entire world bow to them?
So there is a huge difference between groups and it all goes to motive.
In a court of law the judge is very concerned about motive, not only actions and it seems that in our society we often don’t look hard enough at motive.
I think “lying in wait to shed innocent blood” is the essence of a criminality. ISIS kills innocent innocent people for no reason other than they are not just like them.
Matthieu Baudin says
Excellent points Oppressaphobe, it’s important to flesh out these distinctions, so thankyou.
And yes, self defence is a moral duty to safeguard our communities as well as being a necessity for survival; so it is quite slippery for the apologists of Islamic Aggression to muddy the waters by putting all ‘armed conflict’ in the same bag.
Western Canadian says
Oppressaphobe
“I’m sure that many misguided in the KKK thought they were protecting their wives and children, as they had heard stories of black men raping woman (true or not-they believed it). But did they have a plan to rule the world that would compare to the Caliphate?”
I never followed up on it, but heard that the original founder of the KKK ordered it to b disbanded…. It was intended to protect and preserve all that was the best in the old south. Courtesy, chivalry, generosity, deference to women, etc. but her found that it was taken over by those he termed ‘riff raff’, An insult at the time that could result in a duel to the death. And your comment contains or presumes a southern wide contempt for blacks, which would be a slander against the south. The KKK was an arm of the democrat, pro-slave political party… enforcers if you will. They were not protecting their neighborhoods or families, they were attacking others, for having black skin. Or being Jewish, or Catholic. And definitely for being a Republican. Any ‘other’ was subject to attack, merely for being one of the ‘other’. They were hate filled bigots and aggressors, just like devout muslims are.
“I never heard about the KKK Caliphate. Yeah they protected their turf and their own and they were misguided and wrong. But did they have the agenda that Mohammed preached to make the entire world bow to them?
So there is a huge difference between groups and it all goes to motive.”
Insisting on expanding slavery to the unclaimed territories, is hardly ‘protecting their own’
Your defense of the KKK, which I don[t think is your intent, fails badly. They were NOT defending, they were attacking.
Mo says
@ Matthieu Baudin
“The Lord Resistance Army of northern Uganda and territories in neighbouring countries may be an exception; it draws upon Old Testament sources to justify its actions but I understand also utilises some Islamic principles.”
Can you show me where the Bible commands or condones the actions of this vile group?
Richard P, Sweden says
That is why muslims are flooding into Christian and other non muslim countries and not the opposite?Christians and other non muslim countries ought to be much more vigilant and careful considering protecting their own countries from islam.
Annak says
Yes Muslims have been flooding us as we have so much to offer them compared to their miserable lives in mostly third-world Muslim places . Even Oman has only recently been elevated from third-world status .All Muslims have is Arab oil, which WE extracted for them.
The wirst problem for Muslims is , according to a Pakistani Professor, jealousy.
Which is understandable.
He was sacked from his position for stating that all that Muslims have, their only identity and claim to fame, is their religion and the reason they are donning hijabs and burkha’s en masse and sporting beards and pyjamas, which was nit usual decades ago.
The “Mohammad-look. And the subjugated woman-look ? Even in the West, which they never did decades ago. The men wear their pyjamas over jeans and sneakers which is laughable as they obviously don’t realise different clothing is worn as per climate ?
But , emulating the “prophet” in everything is all they have to impress. Unfortunately we tolerated this medieval absurdity, and indeed to our peril
abad says
Did ISL pay for that study?
Sounds like they did.
And if Anderson were to compare Christianity to Islam using scripture – he would have to focus on using the Four Gospels, the core of Christ’s teaching, to the Quran.
But it appears he did not.
I’ll stick to Christianity thank you very much. praise the Lord!
davious says
I just won a $20 bet on this exact subject. I took lists from various pro-Islam sites of bible verses they claim “prove” the bible is more violent than the Quran. Half the verses are simply describing a historical battle. The rest were always directed at a specific time, or place, or group of people who no longer exist. There were no “open ended” commands, as in “kill them wherever you find them”. Not one. In fact, in doing this exercise the difference between the two books is startling. Also – the violence was stripped out of the New Testament, which has been the Christian book of choice for over 600 years, so why are we even talking about what was in the Old Testament??
Adrian says
a simple word count?? and even that is flawed from the start?
this proves nothing…
u could probably find a couple of Tom and jerry cartoons more “violent” than the Communist manifesto!
Stephen says
The Bible is truly the Word of God but quran is not at all.
Allah was Never itself as God but Allah only worship me.
Allah was Never showed LOVE of God.
Allah told Mohammed to kill infidels n ex-muslims.
Allah killed Mohamed with poison that mentioned in the quran.
Allah Never showed its face physically to Mohamed n believers in the Koran.
Allah made Mohamed n others feel Fears.
Mohammed killed more than 800 Jews n many innocents during his life times.
Shan says
This so-called “study” is so flawed that you might as well call it a piece of garbage. So, if I write a book about a documentary of top 100 serial murderers and their numerous violent crimes my book is more violent than Charles Manson who wrote two instruction manuals to directly instruct his followers how to kill 9 innocent people?
Modern scholars nowadays seems to lack functioning brain.
Atheist kaffur says
No one can take this study seriously especially after one understands the methodology. The real jihad is the stealth jihad conducted by the brotherhood infiltration of politics and government.
Matthieu Baudin says
Yes Atheist Kaffur, the stealth jihad whiteants our whole approach to discussing, understanding and dealing with traditional Islam today.
The Vilest of Creatures says
Expect the Young Turks to trumpet this on their regressive Islam apologist show as FACT.
grace says
Huge difference. The Bible contains violence, but it does not advocate violence. The bible advocates love, compassion and forgiveness. And that is what is getting ‘the west’ into trouble with moslems and criminals. They use it against us to take over.
Dan Kauffman says
The Old Testament is precursor for both the Quran and the New Testament so that part is a draw, so how does the Quran stack up violence wise to the New Testament?
Kepha says
Dan, I think the Old Testament is indeed a precursor to the New; but the more I look at Islam, the more I see the Bible, including the Old Testament (I am neither are Marcionite nor an early 20th century “positive Christian”), as merely tangential to the Qur’an and Islam..
Muhammad picked up a hash of biblical, Midrashic, Talmudic, and apocryphal lore from his trading relations with Jews and Christians; he may even have frequented churches (it seems that Sura Maryam [19] actually reflects some knowledge of Luke 1, probably from oral recitation or having heard it read aloud). However, the marvelous ease with which Muhammad almost always misses the point suggests a true spiritual darkness.
I’ve just pointed out to World Citizen that whereas the biblical (Old and New Testament) doctrine of election calls us to take heed lest we fall, and warns us of our sinful predilections, the Qur’an congratulates Muslims on being the best of peoples. Islam keeps blood sacrifices on Eid, but sees no atoning significance (in contrast to Genesis, Leviticus, and the New Testament’s use thereof). It is harsh towards sin, but has none of the Bible’s restorative orientation. For example, Islam mandates that a thief’s hand be amputated; Exodus 22 mandates restoring five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep.
Muhammad’s superficial appeals to teachings from Scriptural traditions perhaps “made sense” to a superficially Christianized (or Judaized) population in Arabia and the Fertile Crescent; but they are downright risible to anyone who has any real knowledge of what the Old and New Testaments teach.
Hence, I remain unconvinced by Christoph Luxenberg’s thesis that the Qur’an is a “re-worked” Syriac lexicon. I think it is more credible that it came from an illiterate, spiritually darkened Arab of the 6th-7th centuries whose business dealings in the Fertile Crescent gave him bits and pieces of the teachings of Judaism and Syriac Christianity which he blended with some of his own Bedawi tradition.
Western Canadian says
Sounds even more pathetic than a website put up by a self proclaimed ‘skeptic’ and noticeably anti-Christian atheist…. Claiming to compare the hate filled islamic drivel with the Judaic/Christian books, he comes to similar conclusions, and for similar reasons…. The listing of the hundreds of exhortations in the unholy koran to violence, the list somehow manages to leave out little things like raping slave females, as not a single reference in this so called ‘study’ refers to the ‘that your right hand commands’ portions of mad mo’s psychotic rambling…. among other no doubt ‘accidental’ omissions…
mortimer says
LOVE VERSUS FEAR IN THE KORAN: A STATISTICAL WORD ANALYSIS
-fear = 300; hate = 400; love = 49…39 = love of something negative, $, etc. 5 = love of brother Moslems; 25 = Allah does not love kafirs; 1 verse = love Allah & give $ to Mohammed
Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace and love but a statistical analysis of the teachings of the Koran display an Allah of hate, fear, terror.
While there are over 300 references in the Koran to Allah and fear, there are only 49 references to love. Of these love references, 39 are negative such as the 14 negative references to love of money, power, other gods and status.
Three verses command humanity to love Allah and 2 verses are about how Allah loves a believer. There are 25 verses about how Allah does NOT love kafirs (disbelievers)
This leaves 5 verses about love. Of these 5, 3 are about loving kin or a Muslim brother. One verse commands a Muslim to give for the love of Allah. This leaves only one quasi-universal verse about love: give what you love to charity and even this is contaminated by dualism since Muslim charity only goes to other Muslims. There are over 400 teachings of hate of all infidels: Jews, Christians, Idolaters and Kafirs.
So much for love. Hate and fear is what Allah demands in the Koran.
-quoted from Bill Warner, Center for the Study of Political Islam
gravenimage says
New study claims that the Bible is more violent than the Qur’an
………………………………..
And that’s why Jews and Christians are murdering people all over the world and Muslims are not…oh…wait…
This fool also claims that the New Testament mentions killing and destruction more often than does the Qur’an, which means he must have counted verses like Matthew 19:18, where Jesus says, “Thou shalt do no murder…”, like Matthew 5:21, which reads, “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill…”, like Mark 10:19, “Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill…”, and like Matthew 15:19, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder…”.
—
Even given the exhortations *not* to kill and destroy, I have to wonder. I have read both the New Testament and the Qur’an, so this seems very questionable. I wonder what his methodology was?
Kepha says
Great points. The guy counted; he clearly did not read.
gravenimage says
True, Kepha.
Liam1304 says
Further problem with this study:~
4. If Anderson used theQur’an pictured in the article then he used an Ahmaddiya translation. Specifically pacifist and considered heretical by main stream Muslims.
So if Anderson used this translation his results will, once again, not be a scholarly representative anaysis
Dave says
As a software engineer with an Economics education I would suggest a better approach would be to take software designed for the purpose like SPSS and plot a regression model to test incidents of violence against which book was being read.
How do you think the predicability of that model will come out?
Most likely there are agencies already doing this work, too bad we will never see it. Counting word usage is ridiculous as predictor of behavior and that is the inference he hopes to be drawn.
Nimrod says
The study seems as though the parameters were just repeatedly modified until the desired results were obtained. Pretty easy to do that with software.
This seems especially true given that it flies in the face of much more thorough studies.
Wellington says
Meanwhile, Presbyterian and Methodist suicide bombers are rather scarce, Lutherans and Catholics sawing off heads or taking hostages not an everyday event, Methodists and Conservative and Reformed Jews threatening death for criticism or mockery of their religion not occurring at least four days a week, and Orthodox rabbis stoning adulteresses not occurring on Wednesday, Thursday or Friday——-but watch out here for what happens on Tuesday afternoons by this execrable rabbinical element, no?
The continued exculpation of Islam seemingly has no end to it. Well, with rubes like Anderson out there pursuing a mindless moral relativism, an extraordinary inability to discern that the Bible is often only descriptive while the Koran is always prescriptive, and quite silly equivalency thinking in general, perhaps there never will come the day when Islam is accurately described for the heinous and destructive belief system which it is.
Damn shame. And with all kinds of lethal consequences continuing ad infinitum and ad nauseam should Islam never be properly identified, courtesy in part due to useful idiots like Anderson who refuse to “get it.”
Rufolino says
Wellington, thanks for putting this so well. (I look out for your comments.)
Kepha says
Wellington, old friend, you had me sputtering with laughter. We live in a pretty credulous age, no?
gravenimage says
Fine post, Wellington.
Bridget Ames says
New study reveals researchers don’t know what the hell their talking about.
Mark Swan says
Good One Bridget Ames
John Johness says
it is interesting how people can confuse the description of violence i.e. the words, with actual actions. The book may exhort people to be violent, or it may describe violent acts, but unless someone is hit over the head with the book, then it ain’t violent.
I think it is a general problem of too many people going to Uni instead of working. Words, the currency of power at a University, have become a fetish.
LR says
Interesting point about words as ‘fetish’.
In the end, no matter what a book says, it’s all about the actions of people in the world that must be dealt with.
Montedoro44 says
Probably any textbook on surgery has more violence than the Koran.
Ian H says
This approach treats “though shalt not kill” the same as “kill the unbelievers”.
Oppressaphobe says
Perfect example!
Karen says
Wonderful to see so many excellent replies by Jihad Watch commentators to this flawed project. My two cents worth can hardly add anything, but I would like to point this out; the author of the article misstates the central debate; it is not which text “references” the most violence. It is about which text *advocates* and inspires violence.
“Referencing” violence (Tom Anderson’s word) is quite different from the advocacy found in the Koran. The NT crucifixion accounts of Christ are about the violence done *to* him, but Anderson for some reason doesn’t mention that little fact. The violence in the Koran is generally about retribution, conquest and Islamic law. Some people will be misled by Anderson, unfortunately, but maybe that was his entire purpose.
Bruce Ramsey says
Its not how much violence is in a book that is important, it’s whether or not you will be rewarded virgins if you believe in that book for your being violent for its god. (i.e. Allah).
gravenimage says
Absolutely, Bruce.
By these lights the most violent people on earth would be fans of Game of Thrones, given the amount of carnage in those stories.
Given that most GoT fans I know personally are academic medievalists and old vegetarian hippies who read Tolkien in college, this hypothesis might be a bit off…
Gotta watch out those those readers of Stephen King novels, though…sarc/off
As you note, the difference is whether people believe they will be rewarded by God if they are violent. This is true of Islam, and of no other major faith.
Angemon says
Don’t forget the Grimm brothers Fairy Tales, GI – let’s just say that Disney took some artistic liberties…
Mark Swan says
Good Eye Karen
You have a correct perspective…Advocating and Referring to something are very different.
Mo says
@ Karen
“My two cents worth can hardly add anything, but I would like to point this out; the author of the article misstates the central debate; it is not which text “references” the most violence. It is about which text *advocates* and inspires violence.”
An excellent point!
“Some people will be misled by Anderson, unfortunately, but maybe that was his entire purpose.”
Oh, it had to be. The problems with this so called study are so many and so obvious that even a high school kid would see right through it!
Using this guy’s method, a dictionary or thesaurus would probably contain more violent words than either book!
Baucent says
Since when do software engineers running some sort of screening program, give better illumination as to the themes of a religious book, than scholars and theologians who have studied in the original language texts. This is comic book “Gotcha” stuff.
I wonder if he had run the words “Peace and Love” through his program what the out come would have been?
mortimer says
You can’t learn much in two minutes…and you will certainly have misleading conclusions if you use a flawed approach. Tom Anderson’s query was inadequate to deal with the many euphemisms in the Koran which mask its totalitarian agenda, as well as the language barrier and intentionally deceptive translations! Muslim Koran translators downplay the Koran’s violence when conveying the words in English…e.g. ‘deceiver’ is translated as ‘planner’…very dishonest! The computer program simply skipped over euphemisms in the texts that authorized and commanded violence in ‘nicer’ language. There are 164 verses that command warfare against the disbelievers, there are 14 verses that command social segregation from disbelievers and verses that command hatred of disbelievers and prayers for the military defeat of disbelievers by Allah couched in a neutral language in the English text. The computer wasn’t asked about such motivations and apparently didn’t find them, yet they are vital. Scholars who compare the original text with the translations get the original meaning!
Basically, this is a case of ‘Wrong query: wrong result’ or in the words of experienced programmers: ‘Garbage in: garbage out’.
G179 says
So I guess “Thou shalt not kill” was counted as a violent bible passage!
Champ says
Bravo!!
Karen says
I second that….Bravo!!
Champ says
You won’t find *thou shalt not kill* in the unholy quran!
gravenimage says
Exactly!
ECAW says
My history books at school contained more violence than the Koran. So does the BBC News come to that. Neither of them exhort me to go and do likewise though, unlike the Koran.
This exercise is a triumph of information over meaning. Congratulations to Mr Anderson, displaying an understanding of scientific method which rivals that of Dr Strabismus (whom God preserve of Utrecht).
Michael says
I have seen many comments here read some and they are very rich and meaningful that every single one of it brings up a whole discussion and they’re all good straight and beyond valid points. It seems to me that there are so many people out there who have knowledge and understanding of islam and all that attached with it however after all that we barely find anyone who is doing something serious about this at any level or by any mean so I wonder why is that some very smart people can’t just unite in one form and fight the good fight not for Christianity or any religion but for good and the truth when are we going to see any changes or real actions on the high levels of making decisions in the world?
A question from a middle eastern Christian living in Australia feeling despair here just like there if not worse!
ECAW says
Well, in Australia there is the Q Society and the linked political party the ALA.
In Britain there is the EDL or the quieter version PEGIDA UK which is linked to the political party Liberty GB. There are PEGIDA franchises in many countries, all of which held marches simultaneously last Saturday.
They may or may not work, but despair definitely won’t.
gravenimage says
Don’t despair, Michael!
As ECAW notes, the Q society is excellent.
Also check out the Islam Monitor, which while it covers Jihad in general, focuses on Australia.
http://islammonitor.org/
There is also the Rise Up Australia Party–RUAP. I am no expert on them, but they sound promising:
http://riseupaustraliaparty.com/
And if your church is not mired in “political correctness”, you many be able to work with them.
Things can look grim at times. But remember the great societies we have to defend.
This American stands with you!
gravenimage says
Michael, there’s also Reclaim Australia:
http://www.christianaction.org/news/2015/4/6/reclaim-australia-rallies-held-against-sharia-islamization
You might also join Stop Islamization of Nations (SION), the international branch of Stop Islamization of Europe (SIOE) and Stop Islamization of America (SIOA). Perhaps in time you and other patriotic Aussies–there are quite a few here on Jihad Watch–could eventually form Stop Islamization of Australia and New Zealand.
African Christian says
Matthew 5: 21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Quran (2:191-193) – And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
WORD KILL COUNTED IN THE BIBLE VERSE = 2
WORD KILL COUNTED IN THE QURAN VERSE = 1
CONCLUSION: THE BIBLE VERSE IS MORE VIOLENT THAN THE QURAN VERSE.
Mark Swan says
Good Example there
Matthieu Baudin says
Likewise, thanks for that example.
Kephaq says
Two thumbs up. In America, it means strong approval–just in case it means something different in your part of Africa.
Michael Copeland says
Which book has a higher frequency score for “Merciful” and “All-Knowing”?
That will really clinch the matter.
Lloyd Miller says
When do we admit that our elites are simply bought and paid for Saudi propagandists?
Oppressaphobe says
I don’t know how you get people to understand that their leaders don’t give a crap about them and their sovereignty.
The problem is that the Saudi’s and any other power brokers out there, have so much leverage because of the economic weakness of America and this is one area that we have to address.
And it’s just the issue that the left doesn’t want to talk about. Look at the Bernie Sanders crowds–they want everything and they want it now.
Our forefathers sacrificed to help our country during the wars, culminating in Kennedy’s famous statement:
Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country.
Mark Swan says
Oppressaphobe…You gave sound examples here…thank You
kessler says
I’m glad this flawed analysis was carried out as I was longing for a discussion on Jihadwatch about violence in the Quran vs Bible. It’s a topic which is constantly pulled out by the left when you have the audacity to claim the Quran promotes violence.
So many good points in this comments section – all added to my own counter jihad book:)
I think, ultimately, people need to apply common sense.
There are numerous Jihad movements who are able to draw in recruits from all over the world – Muslims from all walks of life – on a purely religious basis. Why? Because Islam has a doctrine of Jihad warfare, promotes superiority over non-muslims and demands Muslims to fight those who disbelieve. It’s a religion promoting martyrdom for the sake of Allah. The Bible has no such commands, hence why there are no equivalent to Jihad in Christianity.
But yes, the left refuses to acknowledge the religious link to jihad terrorism – even sharia supremacism. It has nothing to do with Islam. These people are zombies and completely oblivious to the severely of their deception and ignorance. It is up to people like us to spread the truth
ECAW says
Kessler – Here’s another for your collection of attempts to equate violence in the two books from the asinine Craig Considine (I consider it my humanitarian duty to try to bring light to his darkness but I fear the task is beyond me).
Champ says
Question: “How is the Islamic idea of jihad different from the violence in the Bible?”
Answer: Immediately following the horrific terrorist attacks on 9/11, many Westerners began to take notice of Islam for the first time. Many were shocked to find out that Islam’s holy book (the Koran) provides specific injunctions to engage in acts of violence as part of the “holy war” (jihad) in the cause of their religion. Soon many secular thinkers began to draw comparisons between Islamic terrorist attacks and the violence found in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. But are these comparisons valid? Are the commands of Yahweh to the Israelites in the Old Testament the same as jihad as prescribed in the Koran? What is the difference between the violence found in the Bible and Islamic understanding of jihad?
To answer this question, we must define what we mean by “jihad.” The word jihad means “striving” or “struggle.” Within Islam, there are several categories of jihad. The word can be used to describe various types of struggles such as “jihad of the pen” (which would involve persuasion or instruction in the promotion of Islam) or “jihad of the heart” (a battle against one’s own sin). However, the most well-known form of jihad is that which involves physical violence or warfare in the cause of Islam. While the Koran does contain passages that encourage Muslims to engage unbelievers with grace and persuasion (Sura 16:125), the Koran contains other verses that appear to command Muslims to engage in offensive physical warfare against non-Muslims.
In Sura 9 we read, “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem [of war]; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful” (Sura 9:5). Also in Sura 9, “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29).
In addition to the teachings of the Koran, Muslims also follow the Hadith, a supposedly inspired record of Muhammad’s words and actions. The Hadith explains how Muhammad instructed his commander when sent out on an expedition, “When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to [accept] Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them” (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4294).
But what about the violence commanded by God in the Old Testament? Is that any different? The most often-discussed episodes of violence in the Old Testament are Yahweh’s command for the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites and return to the land that He had promised to them. When assessing these incidents, we must understand the context in which these events took place. The Canaanites were a brutal and wicked culture that frequently engaged in incredibly decadent behavior. As Christian author Norman Geisler put it, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”
By ordering the destruction of the Canaanites, God enacted a form of corporate capital punishment on a people that had been deserving of God’s judgment for some time. God had given the Canaanite people over 400 years to repent (Genesis 15:13–16). When they did not, the Lord used the Israelites as an instrument of judgment on an evil and deeply depraved society. The Canaanites were not ignorant as news of God’s awesome power had reached them (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9). Such awareness should have driven them to repentance. The example of Rahab and her family is a sure proof that the Canaanites could have avoided their destruction if they had repented before Israel’s God (Joshua 2). No person had to die. God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than perish (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11). We must also remember that Yahweh did not sanction all of the wars recorded in the Old Testament, and that all of the wars that were specifically commissioned by Him beyond the time of Joshua were defensive in nature. A number of the battles that Israel fought on the way to and within Canaan were also defensive in nature (Exodus 17:8; Numbers 21:21–32; Deuteronomy 2:26–37;Joshua 10:4).
The more difficult question, however, has to do with Yahweh’s command to kill all of the Canaanites, including the women and children. In response to this, two points need to be kept in mind. First, while the Bible reads that such a command was given, it may well be the case that no women or children were actually killed. All of the battles would probably have involved only soldiers where women and children would likely have fled. As Jeremiah 4 indicates, “At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them” (Jeremiah 4:29).
Moreover, Deuteronomy 7:2–5 uses the phrase “utterly destroy” immediately followed by “you shall not intermarry among them,” highlighting the fact that, at least in some instances, the biblical authors may have employed the rhetorical exaggeration (e.g., “all that breathes,” “utterly destroy,” etc.) common to ancient Near East military accounts. This leaves open the possibility that these phrases may express some degree of hyperbolic language, and thus, that no non-combatants were actually killed. The text nowhere explicitly narrates any women or children actually being killed in these battles.
Second, even if we interpret the text to mean that children were killed, this may have been God’s way of ensuring that these children would be saved and immediately brought into His eternal kingdom. The Scripture implies that all children who die before an age of moral accountability will enter heaven (2 Samuel 12:23; Matthew 19:14). Had God allowed these children to grow up in such a vile and heinous culture, these children would likely have grown up into something like their parents and been condemned to hell after they died. God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and we are simply not in a position to question God as to what is best. Since God is the Giver of life, only He has the right to take it.
In conclusion, we have seen that there is a radical difference between the violence in the Old Testament and Islamic jihad. First, the violence prescribed by God in the Old Testament was intended for a particular time and limited to a particular people group. There was no precedent set to continue this practice beyond what God had commanded. In contrast, the Koran actually prescribes and condones military jihad in the promotion of Islam. At no time in the Bible do we see God commanding His people to kill unbelievers in the promotion of biblical faith. Second, it is beyond dispute that, in its earliest years, Islam was promoted by the sword. It is exactly the opposite for early Christianity. Many of the early Christians were severely persecuted and martyred for their commitment to Christ. As one Christian philosopher put it, “Both Islam and Christianity were spread by the sword, but the swords were pointing in opposite directions!”
Finally, for the Christian, the final and complete revelation of God is in Jesus Christ, who was remarkably non-violent in His approach. If a Christian engages in violence in the name of Christ, he is doing so in direct disobedience of His Master. Jesus taught that all who live by the sword will die by it (Matthew 26:52). The teachings and example of Muhammad are very different. A Muslim who desires to commit violence in the name of Islam can find ample justification for his action both in the Koran and in the words and actions of the prophet Muhammad.
Here: http://www.gotquestions.org/jihad-Bible.html
Wellington says
Thoughtful assessment, Champ. Well done.
I might add one thing else respecting a difference between violence in the Old Testament and the Koran and it relates specifically to real estate. Even if one objects to the Jewish God condoning the taking of land by the Jews, it was only for an area about 10,000 square miles, roughly the size of Maryland, the 9th smallest state in the US, really not a large area of land at all. By contrast, direction in the Koran for the taking of land is to sequester all the real estate on earth for Islam and with Muslims in charge. HUGE DIFFERENCE! So, just from the standpoint of scale, no way the objection should be the same. After all, Muslims want Michigan, the Philippines, Thailand, Texas, Britain, Sweden, Australia, et al. Jews were always content with a relatively small parcel of land for their people. Still that way. I try not to forget mentioning this “real estate matter” as just one more reason why comparing violence in the Old Testament to that in the Koran is way off the mark.
Hope you and yours are doing well. Take care, my friend.
Champ says
Thank you, Wellington. Oftentimes “Got Questions” offers succinct yet thorough answers to tough questions, discussed on JW, from a Biblical / Christian perspective. And the “real estate matter” you mentioned is spot on–so good that you brought this up!
I appreciate your kind words, and I hope that you and yours are doing well, too, my friend.
gravenimage says
And most notably of course, Wellington and Champ, is that no Jew or Christian is interpreting any part of the Bible to oppress and murder people who do not share their beliefs. Would this were true of Islam….
Marcieann says
What a timely article! My family and I have been having discussions on the violence depicted in the Bible. Some family members (myself included) contend it’s all about context and revelation of the plan for mankind by the God Who Says He IS Love.
Other family members believe the drivel put out about the “Religion of Peace” and how we have nothing to fear from advocates of Islam, nor should we be concerned about the “refugees” being accepted without vetting into the U.S. and Canada, and also about how no “non-violent” Muslim will hear from the pulpit of a mosque a condemnation of the violence being done in Islam’s name because violence is not inherent in Islam’s beliefs…in other words, Muslims have nothing for which to apologize nor to explain.
For those loved ones who have read little or have no information about Islam, the more persuasive relative will rule the day. This article will be a good starting point for the less educated. Thanks so much for posting it.
sally says
Good. The Bible is clear Jews (us in our traditions of godliness) defeat the savages militarily when we are true. There’s no reason to apologise for this.
javier gambra says
And if you analise a book of history you will see how violent “the book” is.
duh_swami says
What is the purpose of this useless ‘study’, by a self appointed expert on scripture? According to Mahoundians, the Quran is the very words of Allah, good for all time….That includes today…Watt aya’s in Quran can the pious disregard, ignore, or disobey?
The Quran can be divided into two parts, information only and ‘calls to action’…If the Quran really is the Holy words of Allah, good for all time, the calls to action are current…And that is what we are seeing…
Did it ever occur to anyone that Gabriel may have been lying?
Bezelel says
The Allies were more violent than the Nazi’s? Moral equivalence comparing apples to oranges is insane.The morons seem to miss the point that Ancient Israel was fighting Ancient Isis. allah is molech.
Gamaliel says
I tried the same experiment in the last 10 minutes. I downloaded the koran from the university of Michigan web site and only found 15 references to the word “kill”. I also downloaded the old testament from http://www.totta-on.fi/Holy-Bible_Old-Testament.html and found 134 references to the word “kill”.
Muslims are committing genocide against Christians. They have killed hundreds of millions of infidels since Muhammad. They murder and say they did it for Allah. Tom Anderson is drawing the wrong conclusion from his word frequency search. The right conclusion is that the frequency of the word “kill” has absolutely no correlation to the violence of a religion.
duh+swami says
Certainly there is violence in the Bible, people back then were very cruel to each other, But unlike the mental stagnant Quran , the Bible is mid expanding …Love is the method provided. The truth is hidden right in plain sight…It is the Supreme Commandment..If you practice projecting love you will get back more than you sent…’love builds up’ and soon your cup will runneth over…Since love and attach can’t happen in the same time space, the individual practicing this becomes peaceful…There is nothing in Quran or any Islamic theory that can hold a candle to the Supreme Commandment that is not called supreme for nothing…
Oppressaphobe says
And we have the New Testament, which more or less supersedes the old testament.
This is a very important point. It’s almost like Christianity reformed itself.
Muslims are so stuck in the past and the legalism is just what Jesus Christ talked about:
blindly following the law without regard to the heart.
In other words, muslims are not even HUMAN, in their disregard for human life.
Scott says
Sure the bible has violence but Christians hare not living in the 6 the century .
Three kinds of jihad the doers ( terrorists) the deniers ( care ) and the breeders ( the moderates)
Oppressaphobe says
Excellent way to look at it. And the breeders are very important.
And, as you say, I don’t remember the last time I saw anybody missing an eye or a tooth because of a Christian or a jew.
Allan says
By this method of ”analysis” Tom Anderson’s own article would be found to be very violent, for it keeps mentioning the words violent and killing etc.
How stupid can otherwise intelligent people get?
Oppressaphobe says
Lol!
Opprressaphobe says
Thanks Gamaliel !
These Muslims are the most rationalizing bastards I’ve ever seen!!
They will stop at nothing to defend themselves: lies, slander, murder–evil humanity gone wild.
Muhammed Steinberg says
Here’s another “study”: Christians don’t go around beheading, incinerating, drowning, hanging, stoning, and shooting non-Christians.
Bernice says
……noit to mention the fact that we’ve outgrown this violence, and they never will!
duh_swami says
When Christians act up it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it…When Mahoundians act up it is because of Islam, not in spite of it…
Mark Swan says
Yep
Truth Seeker says
Jude Iscariot was one of the Disciples. In Outsiders’ look he was a man of Jesus. It is fact, there are many today, follow Jude Iscariot, with Christian Names. Prima facie it may seem he/she is Christian, but Jude Iscariotan.
Bible not only give Advices but show Good and Bad incidences also. For example, Lot’s daughters played a Trick and had sex with their father. Bible doesn’t state anywhere it is Good Act and people are to follow. There were/are/will be many Jude Iscariotans, No Wonder.
Mark says
These claims about the Bible (mostly Old Testament) never mention that it was compiled over 1,400 years or so, and the Quran over 20 some years. It stands to reason that the concentration of violence in the Quran far exceeds the violent passages over centuries in the Bible.
Oppressaphobe says
And in a 20 year span of time, you have a close circle of people. For example, If Barach Obama and Al Sharpton started writing a holy book about the savior Obama, they would conceivably be done in only 10 years from now. That’s about the length of time that any one figure in American stays in the limelight. It’s nothing really.
Jim Matters says
When people start cutting off heads, kidnapping young women, mutilating their genitals, and committing mass muder by flying planes into office buildings citing the Bible as their inspiration, come back and talk to me. Until then, just STFU.
Oppressaphobe says
Yeah, I can agree with that.
John Grimes says
Anderson is a software engineer. Why not ask your plumber to study the question. After all, he understands an important aspect of human existence provides a service critical to everyday life across the planet. Then there is your butcher, a natural for this since violence is at the heart of his business. The local funeral director, a man who deals with dying and its consequences every day, could also throw his two cents worth in. In a word, Anderson’s methodology is idiotic. Why would anyone bother with this drivel?
awake says
All one needs to do is compare the body count in the wake of both Christ and Muhammad. No other “analysis” is required.
Mark Swan says
Mr Anderson explains: “The project was inspired by the ongoing public debate around whether or not terrorism connected with Islamic fundamentalism reflects something inherently and distinctly violent
about Islam compared to other major religions.”
Using text analytics software he had developed, named Odin Text, he analyzed both the New International Version of both the Old and New Testaments as well as an English-language version of the Quran from 1957.
It took just two minutes for his software to read and analyze the three books.
By categorizing words into eight emotions – Joy, Anticipation, Anger, Disgust, Sadness, Surprise, Fear/Anxiety and Trust – the analysis found the Bible scored higher for anger and much lower for trust than the Quran.
Further analysis found the Old Testament was more violent than the New Testament, and more than twice as violent as the Quran.
However, he adds: “First, I want to make very clear that we have not set out to prove or disprove that Islam is more violent than other religions.
“I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive. Ours is a 30,000-ft, cursory view of three texts: the Quran and the Old and New Testaments, respectively.”
This malignant prank has taken a poke at a serious topic…in a most flippant manner …He has poured more salt into a wound…He does purposefully and openly show a bias that is already known…to be prevalent in our progressive society…this totally open attack on Christian beliefs is Just a popular trend…it will pass…but what could be left in its place.
Never mind the entire theme of the Bible…never mind what the Bible represents…to over two billion people…never mind legitimizing the Quran as something You could compare to the Bible…how about a fair fight here…The Bible stands on its own merits…with approximately 11 – 1 word volume difference…
Show me the frequency correlation…Not between Joy, Anticipation, Anger, Disgust, Sadness, Surprise, Fear/Anxiety and Trust…But between Love…Truth…Justice…Peace…Spirituality…Reality…Hope…
Promises…and so much more.
Now the violence comparison if based solely on advocating of it and warnings against its causes
and effects…the numbers would shift considerably.
The bible reveals that God has not left human beings to flounder without Fundamental guidelines…or without important answers to life’s big questions…God has inspired and preserved the Bible in a way that no other book has been preserved…He has filled Scripture with hundreds of prophecies that accurately predict the future…setting the Bible apart from all other religious books on earth…The discoveries of archaeology and the facts of history continue to confirm the validity of Scripture…even though it was written thousands of years ago…These facts are simply astounding and cannot be brushed aside.
When We weigh critics’ claims about the Bible against the tremendous evidence of the Bible’s divine Inspiration…You are left with a clear choice.
We can choose to believe that critics’ theories might have some foundation in fact…while waiting for the next theory to change and assumptions to be revised.
Or We Can Trust The Evidence From Archaeology…History…Fulfilled Prophecy…which Clearly Reveals that the Bible Is The Inspired Word Of GOD…it most certainly up to us isn’t it.
Nelson Abdullah says
Five year ago when I was actively writing my own blog, I became aware of a useful web site from the University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement. This web site had a search engine that located specific verses in the Koran based upon a word. It then provided three different translations for the results. I compiled a list of all my results and posted them here:
Tuesday, December 30, 2014
Search results for violent words found in Islamic holy books.
http://oldironsides-thesilentmajority.blogspot.com/2014/12/search-results-for-violent-words-found.html
The so-called Religion of Peace that encourages suicide bombers is more about violence than anything but “peace”, especially when you count the number of times the words KILL, SLAY and DEATH appears in the Qur’an. According to the searchable database of the University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement here are the results, along with the verses quoted in Sahih Bukhari (complete collection), Sahih Muslim (complete collection), Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection) and Malik’s Muwatta (complete collection):
Here is a sample:
The query [ kill ] generated the following matches:
In the following Seras in the Translations of the Qur’an
002.054 002.091 002.191 003.183 004.029 004.089 004.091 004.092 004.157 005.027 005.028 005.095 006.140 006.151 008.030 012.009 012.010 017.031 017.033 018.006 020.040 026.003 026.014 027.021 028.009 028.019 028.033 029.024 040.026 040.028 060.012
The query [ kill ] generated the following matches: In the complete Sahih Bukhari
001.001.006 001.002.017 001.002.030 001.008.353 001.008.415 002.024.544 003.029.052 003.029.053 003.029.054 003.029.056 003.029.072 003.030.106 003.030.108 003.034.425 003.040.563 003.043.656 003.045.687 003.047.786 003.048.821 003.048.829 004.051.028 004.052.147 004.052.176 004.052.177 004.052.259 004.052.260 004.052.264 004.052.270 004.052.271 004.052.281 004.052.286 004.053.396 004.053.401 004.054.518 004.054.526 004.054.527 004.054.529 004.054.530 004.054.532 004.054.534 004.055.558 004.055.657 004.056.720 004.056.725 004.056.791 004.056.808 004.056.826 005.057.027 005.057.050 005.057.096 005.058.169 005.058.185 005.058.194 005.058.195 005.058.204 005.058.232 005.058.233 005.058.245 005.059.286 005.059.324 005.059.325 005.059.352 005.059.354 005.059.369 005.059.371 005.059.372 005.059.399 005.059.412 005.059.417 005.059.447 005.059.462 005.059.495 005.059.568 005.059.582 005.059.611 005.059.628 005.059.638 005.059.658 006.060.004 006.060.025 006.060.120 006.060.173 006.060.236 006.060.269 006.060.270 006.060.274 006.060.284 006.060.285 006.060.288 006.060.334 006.060.339 006.060.418 006.060.452 006.060.454 006.060.456 006.061.577 007.063.185 007.063.228 007.063.229 007.067.388 007.067.393 008.073.008 008.073.030 008.078.655 008.078.667 008.082.802 008.082.829 008.082.840 009.083.001 009.083.003 009.083.005 009.083.012 009.083.014 009.083.037 009.084.057 009.084.060 009.084.064 009.088.204 009.088.207 009.088.215 009.088.246 009.089.271 009.089.279 009.089.299 009.089.320 009.093.499 009.093.527 009.093.560 009.093.611 009.093.623
The follow was originally posted on this blog on January 5, 2011 following several days of research through searchable texts from a selection of Islamic holy books. The research was done utilizing the extensive searchable database from the University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement. In the last four years USC/CM-JE redesigned their web site and in doing so made each of the previously clickable links unworkable. But the verse numbers quoted are still the same.
The so-called Religion of Peace that encourages suicide bombers is more about violence than anything but “peace”, especially when you count the number of times the words KILL, SLAY and DEATH appears in the Qur’an. According to the searchable database of the University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement here are the results, along with the verses quoted in Sahih Bukhari (complete collection), Sahih Muslim (complete collection), Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection) and Malik’s Muwatta (complete collection):
steve says
Our task is to get the main dream it serms to see what this audience knows. So many great posts but we all know that Jesus had to preach to the crowds and the uneducated to get them to understand the truth. There’s plenty in the herd still holding to their beliefs thst islam is peaceful. The best you can get out of most of them is that they’re just biding their time going along with their more radicalized brothers and in their complacent conformity they are as big a threat to the west in the long run.
worldcitizen1919 says
Eventually from all these investigations and attacks we will learn to live together in prepare both east and west. This is but the beginning of the process of thr unification of humanity.
There are many challenges in this age amongst them the unification of the human race into a single nation which is not only inevitable but occurring now and it is a process that cannot be stopped even by the most avowed nationalist or/ and extremist however hard they may try.
Communications have shrunk the world into a neighbourhood with cultures, races, nationalities and religions interacting on an unprecedented scale.
That there are to be teething problems and those from both east and west who want to go back to their ‘comfort zone’ is understandable but the march towards to amalgamation of all countries and religions is undeniable.
There is no need to fear. We have before us an example that testifies to the exalted character of such an enterprise. The experience of the American civil war which threatened to rent Ameirca instead created the greatest matin on earth by combining its states into a federal mechanism now known as the United States.
Could this not be happening on a world scale at this very moment? Are we not reading the same signs! The same discord and chaos with human rights pitted against barbarianism? And aren’t we assured of the final outcome? That there will eventually be a Commonwealth or federation of nations of the world that will prosper and flourish just as the United States has?
That people are investigating each other’s scriptures and cultures is but a testimony to how technology has brought us together as neighbours and now we are faced with the question of how do we meet this challenge of getting along with each other.
The Federation of Mankind
Who knows that for so exalted a conception to take shape a suffering more intense than any it has yet experienced will have to be inflicted upon humanity? Could anything less than the fire of a civil war with all its violence and vicissitudes—a war that nearly rent the great American Republic—have welded the states, not only into a Union of independent units, but into a Nation, in spite of all the ethnic differences that characterized its component parts? That so fundamental a revolution, involving such far-reaching changes in the structure of society, can be achieved through the ordinary processes of diplomacy and education seems highly improbable. We have but to turn our gaze to humanity’s blood-stained history to realize that nothing short of intense mental as well as physical agony has been able to precipitate those epoch-making changes that constitute the greatest landmarks in the history of human civilization. (Shoghi Effendi)
gravenimageg says
This has nothing to do with east and west–it is not Zen Buddhists or Seventh Day Adventists who are enslaving and beheading people.
And good luck with that unification of humanity when you have a major segment of humanity that wants to enslave and slaughter anyone who doesn’t adhere to their creed.
Unless, of course, your vision of this unification of humanity happens to coincide with those who follow the warlord Muhammed–which, in “worldcitizen1919’s” case, it does.
Just glance at the sanguinary Caliphate to see what this sort of “unification” looks like…
worldcitizen1919 says
This is an interesting prophecy about what will happen with Islam in the future written in the 1950’s
…..and is destined to culminate in the secularization of the Muslim states, and in the universal recognition of the Law of Bahá’u’lláh by all the nations, and its enthronement in the hearts of all the peoples, of the Muslim world (Shoghi Effendi)
Sandra Lee Smith says
Really? There are much more interesting and likely prophecies written in and before the 1st century AD, about the nations that comprise Islam, and a lot of others, which are even now coming to pass before our eyes! There won’t be ANY “secular” nations before too much longer, by the signs given regarding such things.
worldcitizen1919 says
That’s the prophecy and since the fall of the Ottomon Empire Islam has fragmented and with Syria looks like fragmenting further.
Sandra Lee Smith says
They will no longer exist as nations, period. Neither will America, or the European nations, etc.
worldcitizen1919 says
Sandra. First I want to say regardless of differences of opinion I respect you as a person and a devout Christian. I never mean in any way to offend or hurt only I put my view so in case I have said something I apologise but I want to say that regardless of debate Christ says to love so I see you as a beautiful person and I love having dialogue even though we don’t see things the same. David
worldcitizen1919 says
Exactly. Nations will not exist anymore!!
The oneness of the kingdom of humanity will supplant the banner of conquest, and all communities of the earth will gather under its protection. No nation with separate and restricted boundaries — such as Persia, for instance — will exist. The United States of America will be known only as a name. Germany, France, England, Turkey, Arabia — all these various nations will be welded together in unity. When the people of the future are asked, “To which nationality do you belong?” the answer will be, “To the nationality of humanity…” The people of the future will not say, “I belong to the nation of England, France or Persia”; for all of them will be citizens of a universal nationality — the one family, the one country, the one world of humanity — and then these wars, hatreds and strifes will pass away. –
Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 18.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Wrong twist; there won’t be nations because King Jesus will reign as king over all the Earth; but only those who have repented before His return or those who manage to survive the Great Tribulation, will inhabit that kingdom; and those who survive physically will have 1,000 years to change their minds and turn to following Jesus, or they also will self-condemn. This is the ultimate truth: either each individual turns in repentance to Jesus, and admits his own sinful nature and need to be redeemed to salvation, or he condemns himself to a fate that was never intended for humans at all, but only for those angels who followed Lucifer (Satan) in rebellion against Yhwh God. It’s each person’s own individual CHOICE!
Western Canadian says
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 13, 2016 at 11:30 pm
” I never mean in any way to offend or hurt ”
Except you keep on lying about the filthy and hate filled koran, trying to pretend it is anything but what it is, a vicious murder manual, while at the same time lying about the Bible, trying to drag it down to the same gutter that the koran so happily resides in. How can you do that without intending to offend or hurt? Simple. You can’t,
worldcitizen1919 says
Then how about this??
“Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. (Abdul-Baha)
Sandra Lee Smith says
Religion can NEVER achieve that goal. No man-made construct can, because it’s flawed from the start.
Western Canadian says
Again, not an answer, just another pathetic and dishonest evasion on your part. It’s all you ever do.
Sandra Lee Smith says
These quotes from your text are like those from a politician’s speech: a whole lot of words that are meaningless, and SAY exactly NOTHING.
UNCLE VLADDI says
If you say “THOU SHALT NOT KILL!” many times, then your word-count for the word “KILL!” goes up, compared to if you say “KILL EVERYONE!” only once!
The Qur’an is a much smaller book than even the New Testament (three of which four Gospels are copies of, and elaborations on, each other) not to mention the OT.
Islam is victim-blaming criminal slander. Period. It even slanders “God.”
Basically, islam denies there is a god at all, because Islamic “beliefs” include the belief that their god cannot be understood nor reasoned with, (so it might as well not exist at all) only feared and obeyed.
They also include the criminal notion that, since Muhammad got away with committing his crimes, (and he tried them all, enthusiastically, many times and, far from ever feeling remorse or apologizing for them, instead encouraged everyone else to join him in committing them, too) then “god” must have wanted him to get away with committing those crimes – and so, since “allah” sanctioned them, they were never really “crimes” at all!
So obviously islam is only an ancient yet ongoing extortion-racket CRIME syndicate, and the only “religious” part in it, is where they say:
“God told us to commit these crimes!”
(CAPISCE?)!
;-(
Christianity holds the exact opposite: that, even if God is too complex for us to understand, that still doesn’t stop God from being able to understand us, and to relate to us, and communicate with us, on our own terms, in the person of Jesus Christ. And Jesus advised us to help each other, not to prey on one another.
Christian prayers contain no exhortations to “slay them wherever you find them” (9:5; cf. 2:191 and
4:89), or to beat up disobedient women (4:34), or to make war against and subjugate Jews and
Christians (9:5), or to behead unbelievers (47:4), or to take sex slaves from Infidel women (4:3,
4:24, 23:1-6, 33:50), and so on and on.
The Christian Bible does not endorse that sort of thing, even defensively!
Which is both how and why Christianity differs from Judaism.
And BOTH are literally, infinitely better than islam, because islam is literally, infinitely worse!
See, all those BAD, genocidal and homophobic bits of the old testament, were BY the Jews, and only FOR the other Jews.
And I might add that those “unbelievers” it justifies killing, were, at the time, the ones who were violently opposing the Hebrews’ return to their own ancestral lands in Canaan.
There is no blanket, global infidel-killing decree in Judaism.
They are also merely historical descriptions, since they were all limited geographically in space to HERE (in the land of Israel and its environs) and to ONCE, now (back then).
Contrast that with islam’s Qur’an, where Muhammad had all those bad things read to him, declared them to be ‘GOOD!’ and extrapolated them all into permanent prescriptions, to apply to EVERYWHERE on Earth, FOREVER / for all time, and to apply to everyone else, too.
“Once, Here!” vs. “Always, Everywhere!” = infinite difference.
Judeo-Christianity is based on the Golden Rule of Law (most simply put as Do Not Attack First) and also therefore based philosophically on the similar ideal that, between people, all is forbidden unless and until specifically allowed – i.e: I’m not allowed to do anything either TO, or FOR, you, without getting your express consent, first.
From agreeing to this Rule, we gain trust, progress, and Civilization.
Islam is based on the exact opposite – on what I call the brazen rule of chaos (or, of crime), where they slanderously hold it’s their holy right and duty to always attack the innocent others first, (before they can be ‘inevitably’ attacked them selves) and where all is allowed unless and until it’s very specifically forbidden.
From this, they inflict distrust, stagnation, and barbarism.
Our philosophy and religion are lawful, theirs criminal.
CAPISCE?
SOME COMPARISONS FROM THE BOOKS OF EACH RELIGION
Sura 24:2 – The Holy Qur’an says: “The woman or man guilty of adultery or fornication, Flog each of them with a hundred stripes, Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day, and let a party of the believers witness their punishment.”
John 8:3-11 – The Holy Bible says: “When Jesus had lifted up himself and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said; No man Lord. Jesus said unto her; neither do I condemn thee; go and sin no more.” The self-righteous scribes and Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus to stone her, but Jesus simply knelt down and then quietly said; “Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.” When he said that everyone dropped their stones and left. Then Christ showed compassion on her and told her to go and sin no more.
Sura 4:88-89 – The Holy Qur’an says: “Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would you guide those who God has thrown out of the way? For those whom God has thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the way. They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they); But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden); But if they turn renegades; seize them and slay them wherever you find them; and (in any case) take no friend or helper from their ranks.” Please Note here that the penalty for apostasy is death.
Galatians 6:1 – The Holy Bible says: “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault ye which are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself lest thou also be tempted.” The idea here is reconciliation. Christians should be willing to forgive even as God has forgiven them. Matthew 6:14-15
Sura 5:41 – The Holy Qur’an says: “As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example from God for their crime: and God is exalted in power.”
1 John 1:9 – The Holy Bible says: “If we confess our sins He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.”
God’s way is forgiveness for sin.
Sura 5:36 – The Holy Qur’an says: “The punishment of those who wage war against God and his apostles, and strive with might and main with mischief through the land is execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from both sides, or exile from the land; That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter.”
Romans 12:19 – The Holy Bible says – “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written; Vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord.” The Lord can handle his enemies – he doesn’t need our help.
Sura 9:5 – The Holy Qur’an says: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them beleager them and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the say for them; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.”
Matthew 5:44 – The Holy Bible says: “But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.” – The words of Jesus Christ –
Here we see that one book offers pain and death for sin or defection from the religion it represents. The other offers forgiveness and restoration for all who will repent and be forgiven and saved – God alone deals with his enemies. He doesn’t need help from any man. Thou shalt not kill is still part of the Bible.
…
And “THOU SHALT KILL!” is still the main part of Satan’s Qur’an.
The Qur’an clearly and specifically tells muslims the Bible is wrong and also that all Christians and Jews are infidel criminals who worship a false god, and who must therefore be extorted, enslaved, and murdered for their “crime” of not being muslims:
Sura (Chapter) 47:1-4 of the Qur’an:
1: non-muslims are bad, (allegedly because they insult allah by dividing his nature*);
2: muslims are good, (allegedly because to them allah is the cause of everything*);
3: Allah made them both like that;
4: So muslims should chop off the non-muslims’ heads.
(“Allah could have done it himself, but he wants you muslims to do it for him”).
It’s all right there, in context: islamic violence is entirely general doctrine-driven, and not at all specific grievance-driven. (Don’t go looking for what actions of yours may have offended or provoked them; they have been taught from birth that your existence alone offends their god, and so should offend them).
(And chapter 47 isn’t by any stretch even remotely the worst, most violent chapter; that honor goes to either chapter 8 or 9).
*[Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (3:151)].
So, if and when you consider islam to be a religion, you must agree with it’s main tenet: that God is a violent murderer who wants his muslim tribe to violently conquer the world by extorting, enslaving, and murdering all the non-muslim humans, right?
At WORST, all REAL religions only say:
“Obey our silly rules, or GOD (/’the gods’) will get you!”
…but ONLY islam says:
“Obey our silly rules, or WE will get you (‘for god’)!”
A forced ‘Faith!’ ISN’T a “Faith!” at all – it’s only extortion, and extortion is always a CRIME.
UNCLE VLADDI says
PS: In fact, Robert cited Raymond Ibrahim on this very topic only a few months ago:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/12/raymond-ibrahim-the-koran-and-eternal-war/comment-page-1#comment-1157816
“Whenever Muslims are pressed about the violent verses in the Koran, they often take refuge in the argument that other scriptures of other religions are also replete with calls to violence and intolerance—so why single out the Koran?
To prove this, Muslim apologists almost always point to the Hebrew Scriptures, more widely known as the “Old Testament.” And in fact, the Old Testament is replete with violence and intolerance — all prompted by the Judeo-Christian God.
The difference between the violent passages in the Koran and those in the Old Testament (as more comprehensively explained here) is this: the Old Testament is clearly describing historic episodes whereas the Koran, while also developed within a historical context, uses generic, open-ended language that transcends time and space, inciting believers to attack and slay nonbelievers today no less than yesterday.
Thus in the Old Testament God commands the Hebrews to fight and kill “Hittites,” “Amorites,” “Canaanites,” “Perizzites,” “Hivites,” and “Jebusites”—all specific peoples rooted to a specific time and place; all specific peoples that have not existed for millennia. At no time did God give an open-ended command for the Hebrews, and by extension their Jewish descendants, to fight and kill all “unbelievers.”
To be sure, Muslims argue that the verses of the Koran also deal with temporal, historical opponents, including the polytheists of Mecca, and to a lesser extent, the Byzantine and Sassanian empires.
The problem, however, is that rarely if ever does the Koran specify who its antagonists are the way the Old Testament does. Instead, Muslims were (and are) commanded to fight the “People of the Book,” which Islamic exegesis interprets as people with scriptures, namely, Christians and Jews—“until they pay the jizya with willing submissiveness and feel themselves utterly subdued” (9:29) and to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).
The two Arabic conjunctions “until” (hata) and “wherever” (haythu) demonstrate the perpetual and ubiquitous nature of these commandments: There are still “People of the Book” who have yet to “feel themselves utterly subdued” (especially all throughout the Americas, Europe, and Israel) and “idolaters” to be slain “wherever” one looks (especially Asia and sub-Saharan Africa).
In fact, the salient feature of almost all of the violent commandments in Islamic scriptures is their open-ended and generic nature: “Fight them until there is no more chaos and [all] religion belongs to Allah” (Koran 8:39).”
😉
Ross Busby says
Saying that the Bible is more violent than the Quran is a twisted distraction. The bottom line is that it is Muslims who are cutting off heads, burning people alive, drowning people alive, throwing gays from roof tops, stoning, raping, and it goes on and on. Islam is a twisted version of Jeffry Dahlmer’s mindset. Those people are a cancer on the earth and should be dealt with as such.
Steve says
Islam 1400 years old approximately follows 7th century doctrine without reformation and as most posters have suggested promotes the kuranic sharia and jihad doctrine of war against and subjugation of non-muslims by abogation of medina interpretation over mecca.
The bible has existed twice as long with noted at least with historical documentation of war and violence between different tribes, groups, etc but none of these were directed as a policy of faith to be followed in general to eliminate all others but their own people. Case closed.
Islam as practiced today by most followers promotes a death cult. (See numbers on religion of peace website.) Whoever paid that idiot anderson is probably an islamic apologetic or maybe this “researcher” is just an idiot savant.
steve says
One last thing is the new testament certainly does not promote killing for jesus. Islam as practiced by most followers is a death barbarian cult and either needs to reform itself or stay in its own countries since it is not compatible with the west in its present form!
SAN says
Hi
The number of verses in arabic quran is 6236 and the words are 77439 .
So average verse contains 77439/6236 = 12.418
words
There are 164 violent verses calling Muslims to wage war against khafirs.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
Now the violent verses ratio =164/6236=2.62 %
See the famous verse of sword 9.5 (Maulana ali translation )
http://www.aaiil.org/text/hq/trans/ch9.shtml
9:5 So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
This verse has 51 words . Ho many words of 51 can be considered as violent?
At most 4( slay, , besiege, ambush,captive)
Same way If we take the hole quran the
ratio is 4*164/ 77439=0.84!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the ratio becomes one third.
Funny approach.
Now the author has to explain how many words from the 164 verses he considered violent for his analysis???
Thank you
steve says
I honestly think that most people here know the truth and that this research by that guy was a farce. What need to do and continue to do if we are already doing so is do more than just talk. Posts are great to a point but more of us need to become active in groups that are making a difference. I am amazed at how many people still do not know what is going on in the world and how islamists are promoting the downfall of the West. There are some days I wake up and feel like I’m still dreaming when catch the news as if it’s not real. But it is real and it behooves us to look for ways to do more than just talk about it on posts especially for a lot of us who already understand having become educated to the cult and its hellish ways.
worldcitizen1919 says
Isn’t it people who choose to be violent?
Humanity does have a bloodstained history as much from Christians as Muslims and other religions and races as well.
I think if we blamed man’s inhumanity towards man it would be more accurate than to condemn passages of the Holy Books.
The choice is always man’s to shoot the gun or explode the bomb or fire the arrow as was in ancient times or drop an atom bomb as was in modern times. Humanitys confrontational and violent nature betrays it’s childish nature of settling quarrels and disputes through bloodshed instead at the conference table.
In this age Baha’u’llah has ordained consultation and tribunals as the means through which humanity is to solve its problems and so we see a huge growth of consultative bodies emerging in this and last century indicating the coming maturity of humankind.
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
“And yes I’ve read both the Bible and the Quran”
Then you are a deliberate deceiver, not simply someone who is honestly ignorant.
“I belive in Muhammad and the Quran and they attack my beliefs. ”
Oh, so you’re a follower of the warlord, terrorist, murderer, sex slave owner and child rapist, Mohammad?
Provide evidence of these “attacks” on your beliefs.
worldcitizen1919 says
I mean simply that by slandering Muhammad and the Quran which you are entirely free to do then I am free to put my case also. That’s all
Looking to find something in common is not trying to deceive. It’s trying to promote peace and friendship between the religions.
No one could deceive you for you question things.
Sandra Lee Smith says
You canlook’til you’re blue in the face! Christianity, and even Judaism, can have NOTHING in common with Islam. For starters Islam denies the most essential cor tenets of Christianity and calls them corruptions: END of dialogue, especially when the deity they worship, by his description in Islam’s holy texts more closely fits the pre-existing descriptions of Lucifer, aka Satan, in both Judaic and Christian holy texts. Further, we’re commanded to not become unequally yoked with unbelievers. Doesn’t mean we hate them, but we also do not have fellowship with them.
worldcitizen1919 says
The religions are being united by the Bahai Revelation which is the One Shepherd and the One Fold which Christ prophesied and this will result in the Most Great Peace on earth.
We’ve united Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Christians, aetheists and all peoples from all backgrounds and you say It’s impossible.
I belive in both the Quran and the Bible and would defend both with my life yet you say it’s not possible.
There are NO contradictions except the man made laws. What God actually gave does not contradict Himself. Priests and clergy and followers may contradict. The social laws given for THAT time and age may be in conflict with today’s society but those laws were only given for an age not forever.
God sends progressive revelations to man according to man’s capacity. Parts of religion such as to do good are eternal. The parts that are political or social are only temporary until the next revelation comes which is why Christians are prophesied the return of Christ and Muslims the Day of Judgement or resurrection. Which is simply another revelation.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Citizen; that is a delusion! The belief systems of Christianity and Islam are not, indeed, cannot be “united” by anyone. To be united there have to be commonalities; and there are NONE between those 2! Everything the Bible, the written Word of Yhwh God, teaches is DENIED categorically by the Quran and Hadiths of Islam. There is no point at which the 2 can unite! To think you can make that happen is a delusion of the highest order; and quite arrogant to boot!
worldcitizen1919 says
So you’re saying God is not Almighty and can’t do it?
It is said there will be One Shephered and One Fold’ and you are saying against the Bible that it can’t be done?? Hmmm
Sandra Lee Smith says
Not in the least; God is Omnicient, Omnipresent. and Omnipotent; and He can do whatever He chooses, but He has already told us all that He intends to do; and that isn’t part of His plan.
worldcitizen1919 says
The one shepherd and one fold is not part of His plan? .
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
We have heard His Voice and we are the One Fold He spoke of which has all those who were not in His flock such as the people from all other Faiths.
Christianity is one shepherd and many foods so it can’t fit that description.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Not in the way you’re implying. Jesus’ Kingdom will, for 1,000 years, allow mortal humans a second chance to repent; after which ONLY those who are following His way will remain; and that isn’t an all-inclusive future. Indeed, most of those now living will already have sealed their own fates, before His return; and many of those who do manage to survive will STILL choose to rebel against Him and wind up joining them. Those who remain will be ONLY those who chose to be His freely and willingly, before that judgment.
Western Canadian says
Yours is not a progressive revelation, it is a sickening act of prostitution on your part, to your muslim masters. You bring no one together, you merely assist in the lies, whitewashing and cover up of muslim crimes, all 1400 plus years of them, against the human race. You are just as guilty of muslim crimes, as the muslims you are here to lie for.
worldcitizen1919 says
I welcome your comments and criticisms and feel free to point out where you feel I have been wrong.
I think you are misunderstanding that Baha’is are not Muslims but are killed and persecuted in Iran. You must be entirely misinformed about who Bahais actually are to make some of the statements you have made. It is well known and documented under international law that Baha’is have been persecuted in Iran for over a century and a half and had the most atrocious things done to them claiming we are ‘apostates’ . There is no way a person familiar with our history could ever conclude we were Muslims or even supporting them.
These links to the Bahai International Community an NGO since the UN’s inception should help clear up the apparent misconceptions you appear to have of who we actually are.
https://www.bic.org
https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/situation-iranian-bahais#wMGbMe05Qtlw6SAb.97
Western Canadian says
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 13, 2016 at 9:26 pm
I welcome your comments and criticisms and feel free to point out where you feel I have been wrong.”
The problem is not people pointing out things you have been wrong on (practically everything!), but that you are so lost in extreme ignorance, they you will never find your way out of it.
“I think you are misunderstanding that Baha’is are not Muslims but are killed and persecuted in Iran. You must be entirely misinformed about who Bahais actually are to make some of the statements you have made. It is well known and documented under international law that Baha’is have been persecuted in Iran for over a century and a half and had the most atrocious things done to them claiming we are ‘apostates’ . There is no way a person familiar with our history could ever conclude we were Muslims or even supporting them.”
muslims have a 1400 year history of attacking and murdering other muslims, for being the ‘wrong’ kind of muslim, or not being muslim ‘enough’!! That comment is dishonest as well as disingenuous, And the way you support islam and lie about the vile and filthy koran, is nothing short of criminal. You are as guilty of murdering months old children as the devout muslims who follow mad mo and the koran, since you are here to cover their criminality with your lies.
gravenimage says
“worldcitizen1919” wrote:
We’ve united Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Christians, aetheists and all peoples from all backgrounds and you say It’s impossible.
…………………………….
It seems that “worldcitizen1919” has been remiss in notifying Muslims that they have been united with Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Christians, and atheists, since instead of being united with these Infidels they are slaughtering them all over the world.
Unless of course he believes that butchering innocent people is no impediment to uniting with them–in which case, one wonders just what sort of “unity” he is advocating…
More:
I belive (sic) in both the Quran and the Bible and would defend both with my life yet you say it’s not possible.
…………………………….
In other words, he means he is willing to give his life whitewashing the Qur’an *to us*–but none of the civilized Infidels here are going to harm him, let alone take his life–but he is happy to slander us by pretending that we would.
As for his defending the Bible, I’ll believe *that* when he tells some pious Muslims that it has not been corrupted. Now, that *would* be bad for his health, since violent Mohammedans are not civil Jihad Watchers.
More:
There are NO contradictions except the man made laws. What God actually gave does not contradict Himself. Priests and clergy and followers may contradict. The social laws given for THAT time and age may be in conflict with today’s society but those laws were only given for an age not forever.
…………………………….
Following this “logic”, Jesus would have been many times more savage than was Muhammed–yet I somehow fail to recall Jesus raping sex slaves and butchering his rivals. I must have missed that…sarc/off
More:
God sends progressive revelations to man according to man’s capacity. Parts of religion such as to do good are eternal…
…………………………….
What “worldcitizen1919” does not tell you is that for a pious Muslim ‘doing good’ can include such things as mass murdering Jews:
“Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/hamas-killing-jews-is-worship-that-draws-us-close-to-allah
More:
The parts that are political or social are only temporary until the next revelation comes which is why Christians are prophesied the return of Christ and Muslims the Day of Judgement or resurrection. Which is simply another revelation.
…………………………….
Yes–and that Muslim Day of Judgement includes the return of “Jesus”–really, the Muslim “Isa”–who will give Christians the choice of conversion to Islam or death. In other words, the role of Jesus in Islam is to *kill Christians*. And yet this apologist for evil tries to tell us that there are no contradictions between Christian and Muslim scripture.
More, in reply to Western Canadian:
I think you are misunderstanding that Baha’is are not Muslims but are killed and persecuted in Iran. You must be entirely misinformed about who Bahais actually are to make some of the statements you have made.
…………………………….
Not at all. He didn’t say that “worldcitizen1919” is Muslim himself–just that he is toadying to his Muslim masters and whitewashing their violence–which is quite true.
More:
It is well known and documented under international law that Baha’is have been persecuted in Iran for over a century and a half and had the most atrocious things done to them claiming we are ‘apostates’ . There is no way a person familiar with our history could ever conclude we were Muslims or even supporting them.
…………………………….
Not entirely true. Baha’i did indeed grow out of Shia Islam. I consider it a separate faith at this point–and for all its apologia for evil, it is certainly much less vicious than its parent creed. Certainly, though, the first Baha’i were indeed apostates from Islam.
I don’t actually believe there is anything wrong with leaving Islam–but “worldcitizen1919’s” Muslim overlords certainly do.
The Baha’i Library admits that it grew out of Shia Islam:
“It is accurate to say that the Bahá’í Faith has its roots in Shi’ah Islam, and that Bahá’ís recognize the legitimacy of all 12 Imams.”
http://bahai-library.com/troxel_islam_bahai_guide#7
More:
These links to the Bahai International Community an NGO since the UN’s inception should help clear up the apparent misconceptions you appear to have of who we actually are.
…………………………….
I imagine most people here know *exactly* what “worldcitizen1919” is at this point. A major tenet of his faith, in fact, is spreading Islam to the West, and this is just what he is doing here.
In fact, Shoghi Effendi, said that “the mission of the American Bahá’ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.”
By “truth”, of course, he meant whitewash. “worldcitizen1919” is trying to fulfill his mission here, which has *nothing* to do with trying to sell violent Muslims on the idea that Islam is peaceful. In fact, on that same page in the Baha’i Library I linked to, above.
See if this sounds familiar:
“There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur’án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'”
As for his claim that he equally defends Christianity and Islam, his *own texts* give the lie to that:
“From the standpoint of institutionalism Islam far surpasses true Christianity as we know it in the Gospels. There are infinitely more laws and institutions in the Qur’án than in the Gospel. While the latter’s emphasis is mainly, not to say wholly, on individual and personal conduct, the Qur’án stresses the importance of society. This social emphasis acquires added importance and significance in the Bahá’í Revelation. When carefully and impartially compared, the Qur’án marks definite advancement on the Gospel, from the standpoint of spiritual and humanitarian progress.”
This “social emphases” means that they are backers of savage Shari’ah law. *Ugh*.
More:
The Quran says Muhammad was good and that means good as in without sin like Jesus. To ascribe oaedopjilia (sic) to Muhammad is to ascribe it to Jesus as Muhammad was the One sent by Jesus which Christians are in denial about.
…………………………….
Of course, it is not us “filthy Infidels” who are ascribing pedophilia to Muhammed, but pious Muslims themselves. I ask again–will “worldcitizen1919” try to tell Muslims marrying little girls that they are all wrong about their child-raping “Prophet”? Of course not.
In fact, the Baha’i Library–same link–specifically tells Baha’i they should *not* approach Middle Eastern Muslims.
And then he claims Christians are “in denial” about Jesus having sent a savage barbarian warlord. *Ugh*.
More
That’s why I am supremely confident that no matter if all the world arise and try to prove what you say about Muhammad they shall be proven false.
…………………………….
Given that “worldcitizen1919” hasn’t proven any of this wrong himself, I really doubt it. Saying that his obscure holy books “prove” that the sanguinary Qur’an and “Prophet” are actually hunky-dory is not proof of anything.
More:
Christ spoke of a time Christians would betray Him not only in His personal life.
“He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but WOE unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Matt. 26:23-24)
…………………………….
This is, of course, a reference to Judas’s betrayal of Christ–not of good Christians refusing to follow a bloody dark ages warlord.
More:
In God’s Eyes this accusation against Muhammad is vile and that’s all that matters what God thinks.
…………………………….
Again, this vicious poster claims that we are opposing “god” if we balk at caravan-raiding, slaving, and mass-murder. *Ugh*.
More:
So Christians who have been unfaithful to God’s Cocenant with them that He would send Christ and Muhammad of course will bring these disgusting filthy charges against Muhammad.
…………………………….
It is not Christians who claim that Muhammed married a six-year old girl and consumated the marriage when she was nine. This is something Muslims not only proudly proclaim, but piously emulate.
The fact is that all of this supposed “calumny” of Muhammed “worldcitizen1919” so decries is touted not by slandering Christians, but by devout Muslims.
And yet we see that he cannot criticize Muslims waging violent Jihad and enslaving Infidel girls–he just has to come here and lie to Infidels.
worldcitizen1919 says
Some excellent comments. I’m glad someone one finally did some proper research and questioned on that rather than just useless insults which I don’t mind but they don’t achieve anything.
At least people are having the fairness to look at what we are taught and believe and argue that.
Yes I stand corrected. The Bible and Quran are both acknowledged as the Word of God but as far as developing a society with laws and institutions the Quran did that whereas the Bible was more for personal conduct.
But the researcher failed to investigate further to find that the Bahai Faith does not support Shariah law and the Bab abrogated shariah law when He proclaimed His Mission along with the Quran. Tahirih she announced the end of Shariah law.
After Him, Baha’u’llah further ensured in His Most Holy Book and other Tablets that things like Holy war and priesthood were abolished.
Bahais accept the 12 Imams as the legitimate successors of Muhammad not the Umayyads and Abbasids who are the Sunnis of today and usurped the Calphate and damaged the reputation of Idlam badly.
Ok so the point on shariah law is wrong . We do NOT support shariah law so please verify that however you wish. Baha’u’llah has abrogated the Quran and brought a new book called the Most Holy Book. So no shariah law and that can be verified.
Yes, the Revelation of Muahammad brought more laws and more organisation for society than the Bible as one of its main aims was too establish the nationa state. But saying they were equally the Word of God is correct. Their teachings may have been more or less advanced but both were the Word of God.
Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian
“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá
About the west not having the truth about Islam. That is correct. First the Umayyads who usurped the Caliphate did much damage to the reputation of Islam which cannot be denied. But all throughout history up until the current period western writers have been extremely prejudiced against Muhammad and the Quran which did not support the Umayyads who disobeyed many of its laws in order to conquer.
I’m agreeing that the clergy often has been evil and do not support them in any way, that terrorists must be completely destroyed and also that all violent Hadiths should also be destroyed.
But what these people have done was not taught by the Quran or Muhammad. And it is unfair to accuse someone of perpetrating something that clearly others have done in this case in early Islam the Umayyads and Abbasids. People here are lumping everything together which is I think unfair.
So by condemning Muhammad and the Quran you are also condemning the Bahai Faith as we read from the Quran in all our Temples weekly and study it but we do not have clergy or follow its laws or Hadiths.
So why not have a site called Jihad and Bahai Watch because in effect you’re condemning a very precious part of my belief and denigrating it and by doing that denigrating my beliefs so I want to correct that as it is not true that we Baha’is are terrorists or even Muslims or things like that.
BUT I really am very pleased that finally someone is doing some research and facts from a proper Bahai source instead of just saying I’m insane or silly stuff like that.
I’m happy to be put to the sword but for instance do it with the Book of Certitude which explains how the Quran and Bible are the same and can be united and then we can have a real discussion instead of just saying I’m stupid or childish stuff.
Get the Book of Certitude out (online google it) and challenge me with that.
Western Canadian says
And again, the islamic boot licker returns!! Not with answers, but with the usual dishonest evasions. She utterly shredded your pathetic efforts, raised questions that you cannot and will not answer, and by posting your evasive drivel, you think you have accomplished something. And you have. You have shown yourself to be a superficial know nothing, with nothing to offer. I have gone to the links you have supplied, and am not merely disappointed in the total lack of substance they contain, but am equally disgusted that I wasted my time bothering with them. Quit offering lies, evasions, falsehoods and smears of Christianity, and quit lying about, falsifying, advancing the cause of, pretending islam is anything other than evil… Your criminal involvement with whitewashing islam, is NOT appreciated. You are as guilty of the crimes committed every day by devout muslims for the last 1400 plus years, as the muslims themselves.
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
“I mean simply that by slandering Muhammad and the Quran which you are entirely free to do then I am free to put my case also. That’s all”
Provide the evidence of anyone slandering Mohammad. Slandering is saying FALSE things in public in order to destroy someone’s reputation. Provide that evidence. I am sick and tried of your lies here.
Provide that evidence.
worldcitizen1919 says
Calling Muhammad a paedophile is slanderous and calumny and many people say that and of course it’s just inuendo based on a Hadith written 200 years after and totally unreliable.
Sandra Lee Smith says
NO, Citizen, it’s not; it’s merely telling the truth! There is NO way an healthy relationship based on sexuality exists between a middle aged man and a pre-pubescent little girl, period! I have a very good friend, an Egyptian raised in Islam, who, once he understood the psychological and spiritual impact of such interactions on the child involved, was horrified, realizing that could easily have been his own niece! He had, at the time, 2 young sons only, but loves his niece enough to not want that for her either. The world NEEDS to know what a monster Muhammad was; and to judge him on that, not some contrived fairytale. I simply told my friend what the impact is; and asked him to choose ANY biography of Muhammad written by any non-Muslim; he did so, and learned! You are the one who is the more dangerous, because you refuse to learn truth.
worldcitizen1919 says
You weren’t there and I wasn’t there. So you’re relying on reports and I’m relying on reports.
It’s a case of he said she said which doesn’t stand up in court and neither could that Hadith stand up in court it’s your word against mine except……
I get my information about Muhammad from God and His Manifestations not from people as in your case and others here who rely solely on a Hadith which even in Islam is below the Quran, the Word of God. The Quran says Muhammad was good and that means good as in without sin like Jesus. To ascribe oaedopjilia to Muhammad is to ascribe it to Jesus as Muhammad was the One sent by Jesus which Christians are in denial about.
That’s why I am supremely confident that no matter if all the world arise and try to prove what you say about Muhammad they shall be proven false.
Christ spoke of a time Christians would betray Him not only in His personal life.
“He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but WOE unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Matt. 26:23-24)
The greatest Woe in Easton’s Biible Dictionary as quoted on Matt 26:23-24 is to betray Christ and there have been three woes and three successive times where Christians have betrayed Christ.
In God’s Eyes this accusation against Muhammad is vile and that’s all that matters what God thinks.
The first Woe was Muhammad and the Second and third woes which came quickly after one another were the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
So Christians who have been unfaithful to God’s Cocenant with them that He would send Christ and Muhammad of course will bring these disgusting filthy charges against Muhammad.
Christianity is at conflict with itself with over 25,000 sects all claiming to have the truth and it says in the Bible if they say here is Christ or there thrn go not because in the last days Chrstianity will not give light and the sects will be darkened.
From Christ’s Divinity to the Papacy and now women priesthood and same sex marriage where is unity?
However Christ said there would be One Shepherd and One Fold and the Bahai Faith fits that description perfectly not the 25,000 sects of conflicting sects of Chrisitanity which all claim to have the truth.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Excuse me? You ever hear of the 3rd member of the Holy Trinity: the Holy Spirit? He also is God and a very reliable source of information, I find. Don’t presume to know what all my sources are, when I haven’t listed them here.
worldcitizen1919 says
There are 25,000 sects inspired by the Holy Spirit all claiming the other sects are wrong and false.
Sandra Lee Smith says
No, there aren’t 25,000 sects inspired by the Holy Spirit; indeed, most of them, I can only take an educated guess as to what “inspired” them, but it wasn’t the Holy Spirit, because He never deviates from the Written Word in His inspiration of people. He also never indwells those NOT in accord with the Word as presented. Indeed, He has long since departed most of the so-called “churches” in America, and likely the world, because they departed from following God and He was no longer welcome in them.
Jay Boo says
Actually, worldcitizen1919
— taking that a step further the Qur’an would be even more unreliable then hadith considering the lifestyle of the satanic verses source who claimed that he was Allah’s messenger yet said he was tricked by the devil and routinely abrogated verses out of personal convenience.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Good point.
gravenimage says
worldcitizen1919 wrote:
Isn’t it people who choose to be violent?
………………………………..
Of course, this is true. But to pretend that the creed someone embraces is irrelevant is obviously absurd. A Nazi indoctrinated in the Hitler Youth who regularly read Mein Kampf and attended Hitler rallies would be *far* more likely to be violent than, say, a Catholic or Buddhist nun.
More:
I think if we blamed man’s inhumanity towards man it would be more accurate than to condemn passages of the Holy Books.
………………………………..
This would be true–except that pious Muslims regularly cite the tenets of the vicious Qur’an for their violence–as “worldcitizen1919” well knows.
More, in reply to Mo:
I mean simply that by slandering Muhammad and the Quran which you are entirely free to do then I am free to put my case also. That’s all
………………………………..
Note that “worldcitizen1919” uses the concept of “slander” as Muslims do–saying something he does not want you to say, *not* saying something untrue.
The fact is that the view of the Qur’an as violent comes from its own text, and of Muhammed as violent from the Qur’an and the other texts of Islam.
And Muslims themselves do not consider any of this negative–they regularly are violent on the tenets of the Qur’an and the model of the vicious “Prophet”.
More:
Looking to find something in common is not trying to deceive. It’s trying to promote peace and friendship between the religions.
………………………………..
The only obstacle to peace and friendship between religions is Islamic oppression and violence. Yet “worldcitizen1919” will never try to convince ravening Muslims that their creed is not violent–he just tries to convince the *victims* of Islam that this is so.
More:
Calling Muhammad a paedophile is slanderous and calumny and many people say that and of course it’s just inuendo based on a Hadith written 200 years after and totally unreliable.
………………………………..
What “worldcitizen1919” will not tell you is that far from considering Muhammed having raped little Aisha at the age of nine to be slander and calumny, they rush to emulate this pedophilia:
“Pakistan: Bill banning child marriage fails after it’s deemed un-Islamic”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/pakistan-bill-banning-child-marriage-fails-after-its-deemed-un-islamic
There are stories like this from all over the Muslim world–Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, northern Nigeria, Afghanistan.
A regular Muslim poster here, Rezali Mehil, has regularly described the deflowering of this little child by the fifty-four year old “Prophet” as “ordained by Allah SWT”.
Will “worldcitizen1919” take this matter up with pedophile Muslims acting on the model of Muhammed? Of course not–he would rather pretend that Muslims regard this as slander and calumny. *Ugh*.
Western Canadian says
Your usual excellent post GI, but alas, except for pointing out this fool’s errors to the rest of us on this board, it will have no impact on his dishonest efforts… He (assumed) cannot possibly believe that anyone, but ANYONE on this board would be fool enough to swallow the tiniest bit of his chronic lies…. If his effort is to try to muddy the waters by offering up blatant distortions about the unholy koran, he will fail there as well. In part to your and other posters excellent efforts.
What I find truly the most revolting thing about his efforts is not the blatant and extremely obvious dishonesty, but how he is here, lying on behalf of: devout muslims everywhere, who have stolen, raped, enslaved and butchered for the entire history of this absolute crime against all of humanity. He tries to whitewash the most violent and hate filled cult, ever to defile this planet, and to excuse the founder of this vicious criminal organization (if he ever even existed) of his own crimes, by lying and blaming his victims…. possibly the most dishonest things muslims are guilty of!!
By doing so, by giving cover to this sub-animal violence by lying about those who commit it and their unspeakable unholy books, he has become just as guilty as they are. Far from being a light bearer or peace maker, this fool or criminal is just as guilty of slitting the throats of months old children, and the devout muslims who held the knives in their sub-animal hands. He is as guilty of these murders, all 270,000,000 and increasing every day, as the rest of his criminal lot.
worldcitizen1919 says
I’m just an ordinary Bahai who believes in Muhammad and the Quran.
Western Canadian says
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 13, 2016 at 8:54 pm
I’m just an ordinary Bahai who believes in Muhammad and the Quran.”
Then you are a vile and filthy creature, unfit to live among human being. The way you continually twist and whitewash the filthy and hate filled koran, would be amusing if you were not providing cover for those who read it, and follow its vicious and hate filled dictates. Amazing, you lie about the filthy koran to make it sound reasonable and decent, while lying about the Bible, trying to drag it down to the level of the filthy and hate filled koran. And you can quit lying about Christ saying that he would send mohamed after him….. He refused Satan’s offer, so why would he send Satans step child, the murdering, raping, thieving, lowest creature in the history of the human race? Your hero, Mad MO!! Oh, by the way, I belong to no church, preferring to go to the original documents myself.
gravenimage says
Hi, Western Canadian. Fine posts here from you, as always.
I don’t expect to change “worldcitizen’s” mind–such as it is. I just counter his bs so that unwary readers here will not imagine that his whitewash has any merit.
And yes–that he is spewing apologia for the very creed that is not just killing innocent Infidels all over the world but has specifically targeted his own coreligionists shows just how suicidal dhimmitude can be.
He is trying to convince Islam’s *victims* that we should embrace our own destruction. Morally appalling.
worldcitizen1919 says
No ones apologising for evil terrorists who must be destroyed completely.
But I’m not going to condemn the religion followed by the other 1.6 billion PEACEFUL Muslims.
It’s strange that people take what a minority is doing as representative of Islam and of the 1.6 billion majority on what grounds?
It’s just prejudice against Islam itself and the terrorist have provided those with a hate for Islam to attack the entire religion.
The 1.6 billion Muslims who aren’t attacking anyone don’t get any acknowledgement for being peaceful??? Why? What have they done wrong that their religion is condemned as filth?? Who have they killed? So the whole aim is to denigrate Islam on what a minority do??
How one sided can one get?? I’m not about condemning the innocent and you are doing that when you condemn an entire religion because Islam is followed in many peaceful countries and 100’s of millions of people who wish no one any harm and they are not evil because of belief in Muhammad or the Quran. So you’re justifying the Quran and Muhammad being evil on the terrorists alone?
That I don’t insult Muhammad and the Quran means I don’t put thrm in the same basket as the terrorists who disobey the Quran not obey it.
You have your views and I have mine. We agree on terrorism us evil. I also believe priesthood should be abolished and all Hadiths destroyed because they are not what Muhammad brought.
Western Canadian says
I must correct a previous comment I made, regarding worldloonison….. The energy he expends coming here, to smear the Bible and Christian/Jews, while whitewashing and lying about mad mo and his murder manual the koran…. would NOT be enough to merely power a small city…. It could power all of New York City, with plenty left over to sell to Canada.
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 14, 2016 at 1:33 am
No ones apologising for evil terrorists who must be destroyed completely.”
But they are doing exactly what the founder of the hate and murder cult called islam did, so how can you call them evil? Oh, silly me!! You are merely lying again.
“But I’m not going to condemn the religion followed by the other 1.6 billion PEACEFUL Muslims.”
The 1.6 is an overstatement, as you well know, and hundreds of millions would leave if they could do so without being murdered. Every single muslim dominated country treats non muslims like filth, which again, is actually what your hero, mad mo, did as well, Again, they merely follow the example and teaching of the founder of the hate cult, called islam.
“It’s strange that people take what a minority is doing as representative of Islam and of the 1.6 billion majority on what grounds?”
Again, you are lying about the number, which we have come to expect of you. Lying is all you have. And it is not merely a minority…. Rape gangs in England are devout muslims from Pakistan, rape gangs in France are devout muslims from Somolia, muslims around the world run a vicious scan on halal certification, that cheats infidels out of their hard earned money, which is then sent to fund terror groups, made up of muslims. So called ‘charitable’ groups run by devout muslims have had their criminal scams shut down, again around the world, as the funds they raised were again sent to terrorist groups, again made up of devout muslims. Muslims do NOT march in the millions, hundred of thousand, tens of thousands, thousand, hundreds, and rarely even int eh dozens, protesting other muslims who imitate the founder of the hate cult called islam, and its filly unholy book. They are much more likely to be sending money to the devout muslims who commit terrorist acts, just like the founder of islam.. Your dishonesty is showing again…
“It’s just prejudice against Islam itself and the terrorist have provided those with a hate for Islam to attack the entire religion.”
No, it is an accurate and true face of islam. The terrorists are merely the ones living the islamic life of theft, rape, mutilation, taking slaves, and viscous, sadistic murder. It is not prejudice to understand and know islam, and loath it. It is common sense, common decency, and an instinct for self preservation and the survival of the human race.
“The 1.6 billion Muslims who aren’t attacking anyone don’t get any acknowledgement for being peaceful??? Why? What have they done wrong that their religion is condemned as filth?? Who have they killed? So the whole aim is to denigrate Islam on what a minority do??”
Again with the lie about 1.6 billion….. Knock it off, jack@ss!! If it were not for the murder of those who come to their senses and leave that vile and filthy hate cult, islam would have ceased to exist, centuries ago. Not All germans were nazis, and not all served in the german armed forces during WWII, but the citizens WERE involved in supporting the military, growing food to feed them, producing the weapons, uniforms, etc. Same as muslim and terrorists. That is why. The whole aim is to show islam for what it is: a 1400 year crime against humanity. Unlike your aim, to lie to people about it, to disarm them, to make them more vulnerable to it.
“How one sided can one get??”
Read your own dishonest and pathetic posts. You are the best example of one sided ignorance and/or dishonesty on the internet!!!
” I’m not about condemning the innocent and you are doing that when you condemn an entire religion because Islam is followed in many peaceful countries”
islam does not produce peaceful countries, it produces vicious and fetid hellholes, where non-muslims are treated like vermin, raped, murdered, stolen from, forced at gunpoint to convert….. Another lie from another muslim!!
” and 100’s of millions of people who wish no one any harm and they are not evil because of belief in Muhammad or the Quran.”
Yes, there are honest and decent people who wear the label ‘muslim’, but they are the ones who do not know or follow its utterly criminal precepts, or know how vicious and utterly criminal mad mo was…. And they remain blind, thanks to criminals like you, who lie about islam and mad mo.
”
So you’re justifying the Quran and Muhammad being evil on the terrorists alone?”
No, you are deliberately being obtuse, which I have to admit, you do have a real talent for!! The unholy koran and mad mo were utterly and totaly evil, and the terrorist are evil because they follow it, to the letter. Understand now? Didn’t think you would.
“That I don’t insult Muhammad and the Quran means I don’t put thrm in the same basket as the terrorists who disobey the Quran not obey it.”
That you insult the victims of mad mo and the vicious and filthy koran by lying about it, and the terrorist who do NOT disobey the vicious and filthy koran, but follow it to the blood soaked letter. You rally are pathetic.
“You have your views and I have mine.”
Your ‘views’ are either delusional and pathetic, or lies and inexcusably vicious.
“We agree on terrorism us evil.”
No, you do not… You lie about the source of islamic terrorism, which is the true face of the real islam.
” I also believe priesthood should be abolished and all Hadiths destroyed because they are not what Muhammad brought.”
islam itself must be destroyed, because it is being practiced by terrorists, slave raiders seller and holders, rapists, thieves etc, exactly and mad mo taught. And whitewashed by co-conspirators like you.
worldcitizen1919 says
These are the official Bahai views on Jesus, th Bible, Muhammad and the Quran.
“Let none, however, mistake my purpose, or misrepresent this cardinal truth which is of the essence of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh. The divine origin of all the Prophets of God–including Jesus Christ and the Apostle of God, the two greatest Manifestations preceding the Revelation of the Báb–is unreservedly and unshakably upheld by each and every follower of the Bahá’í religion. The fundamental unity of these Messengers of God is clearly recognized, the continuity of their Revelations is affirmed, the God-given authority and correlative character of their Books is admitted, the singleness of their aims and purposes is proclaimed, the uniqueness of their influence emphasized, the ultimate reconciliation of their teachings and followers taught and anticipated. “They all,” according to Bahá’u’lláh’s testimony, “abide in the same tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech, and proclaim the same Faith.”
– The Promised Day Is Come, by Shoghi Effendi, p. 107
Sandra Lee Smiths says
SERIOUSLY???? You honestly believe Jesus and Muhammad had ANYTHING in common???? PUHLEEZE! None of their teachings; nothing about their personal lives, and certainly nothing they believed and imparted by modeling to their followers was in the least similar and / or compatible with each other. One is the living Son of the living God, Creator of all things that exist, and the other a common brigand who figured out a way to gain power and adulation; a person whose resume, today, would be called a rap sheet, as long as a city block, at least. While Jesus said He didn’t come to bring peace, but war, He also didn’t advocate the indiscriminate murder of people, simply for holding different beliefs; He offered them time to reflect and repent their ways. Muhammad never did that. Neither is there any provision for salvation in Islam; there’s the “lottery” chance you MIGHT earn enough “brownie points”, but not on a Godly scale as to what constitutes truly “good” works, mostly by the MURDER of others in the name of Allah. Conversely, when Yhwh God orders a death sentence, it’s with much sadness and after many efforts to bring the miscreant to Himself first. There is NO comparison between them or their roles in human existence!
worldcitizen1919 says
Pure truth. Christians have now missed 3 Manifestations of God all prophesied in their own Bible. In another 2,000 Christians will still keep saying ‘He’s coming! He’s coming’ making a complete mockery of the promises made by Christ and the Bible.
These prophecies are not there so Christians can keep saying ‘Not yet’ Not yet’ There is no intention to accept the Second Coming which is why this opposition. The eternal stalling about Christs Return is so as to never ever accept it.
“And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.”
Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “The Kitáb-i-Íqán.” Bahá’í eBooks Publications, 2011-12-16T22:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Sorry, nope; that’s, as Will Rogers would say, “just not so”! By Yhwh God’s time frame, which He provided for us in His Word, it’s just coming to the close of the 2nd day since Jesus walked among us, and “early on the third day” is a very common theme with important events in Biblical history. We aren’t quite there. Neither had all the necessary prophecies and forewarnings been fulfilled until very recently, even in our time frames, for His return to occur. When He comes for His own, WE will know it; and when He actually sets foot on Earth again, EVERYONE will know it, in real time! We haven’t “missed” anything; neither are we rejecting HIs coming, since it has yet to occur.
worldcitizen1919 says
Christ has returned. Every eye shall see Him is happening now and continuing to happen.
A letter dated 29 November 1937 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer identifies the fulfilment of Christ’s prophecy of His return — of the coming of the Kingdom of the Father — with the worldwide realization of the sovereignty of Bahá’u’lláh:
Now as regards the signs that would herald the advent of the new Manifestation; The Guardian wishes you to read over very carefully Bahá’u’lláh’s explanation as recorded in the Iqan”. There it is made clear that what is meant by the appearance of the Son of God after the calamitous events preceding His coming is the revelation of His full glory and its recognition and acceptance by the peoples of the world, and not His physical appearance. For Bahá’u’lláh, Whose advent marks the return of the Son in the glory of the Father, has already appeared, and the signs predicted in the Gospel have not yet fully been realized. Their complete fulfilment, however, would mark the beginning of the recognition of His full station by the peoples of the world. Then and only then will His appearance be made completely manifest.
Sandra Lee Smitha says
I’m going with what Yeshua Himself said about what to expect when He returns. He was very explicit, and that has yet to occur! There are MANY who will claim to be the Christ returning; and we’re warned to NOT believe them as they’re FALSE! I very much believe you’re following blindly, one such.
worldcitizen1919 says
I respect that. But I still like talking with you and think you’re a sincere person. I want you to keep scrutinising and challenge my views if you think they’re wrong.
gravenimage says
Yet more from “worldcitizen1919”:
But I’m not going to condemn the religion followed by the other 1.6 billion PEACEFUL Muslims.
………………………………….
Actually, a huge percentage of Muslims support violent Jihad, even in the West:
“Poll of U.S. Muslims Reveals Ominous Levels Of Support For Islamic Supremacists’ Doctrine of Shariah, Jihad”
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/
For instance, nearly a quarter of the Muslims polled believed that, “It is legitimate to use violence to punish those who give offense to Islam by, for example, portraying the prophet Mohammed.”
The numbers, of course, are much higher in Dar-al-Islam itself.
“worldcitizen1919” hopes we don’t understand the concept of Fard Ayn and Fard Kalifa–most Muslims believe the latter holds now. That means that as long as some Muslims are waging violent Jihad all is well. Waging Jihad only becomes Fard Ayn–incumbent on every Muslim–under certain conditions.
Besides, “worldcitizen1919’s” claim that 1.6 billion Muslims are refraining from waging Jihad simply is not the case. This is the general estimate of Muslims worldwide–in this case, “worldcitizen1919” is claiming that no Muslim at all is waging violent Jihad, which is obviously false.
Moreover, many Muslims support Jihad in other ways–there is a Jihad of the pen–Da’wa–rape Jihad, theft Jihad, Jihad through Zakat (funding Jihad, which *is* incumbent on every pious Muslim), and various forms of stealth Jihad, such as lawfare.
More:
It’s just prejudice against Islam itself and the terrorist have provided those with a hate for Islam to attack the entire religion.
………………………………….
I’m sure I am like most people here–for much of my life, I didn’t much care about Islam one way or another. It was an eastern faith and I didn’t spend any more time thinking about it than I did Hinduism or Buddhism or, for that matter, Baha’i.
But then I began to notice how much of the terrorism around the world was committed by Muslims–suicide bombings in Israel, hostage taking, hijackings of airplanes.
After awhile, I found Islam quite troubling.
But it was not until 9/11 that I truly decided to begin studying Islam, to see if Jihadists’ claims to act on the tenets of their faith was truly the case. Everything I’ve learned subsequently has just confirmed that this is true.
Since then, there have been 27,799 Jihad terror attacks–that is a lot of violence in the name of Islam.
“worldcitizen1919” is pretending that we had a preexisting bias against Islam–nothing could be farther from the truth. I rather resisted the idea that any religion could be violent–since my primary models were Christianity and Judaism, and other faiths like Buddhism and Hinduism–none of which are violent at all.
Then I came to learn that Islam actually *calls* for violence–which explains, of course, why so many Muslims are violent in its name.
More:
How one sided can one get?? I’m not about condemning the innocent and you are doing that when you condemn an entire religion because Islam is followed in many peaceful countries…
………………………………….
There is nothing “one sided” about condemning evil. As “worldcitizen1919” would have it, condemning Fascism would be “one sided”, as well.
And one wonders what “peaceful countries” he is talking about? Afghanistan? Syria? Somalia? Iraq? Yemen? Pakistan? The Islamic State? All sanguinary hell holes, and all on the model of Islam and the “Prophet”.
Over all, Muslim countries are the most violent in the world. That is no accident, given the creed they follow.
More:
So you’re justifying the Quran and Muhammad being evil on the terrorists alone?
………………………………….
“worldcitizen1919” has things backwards–what the Jihad terrorists are doing is on the tenets of the Qur’an and the model of Muhammed.
More:
You have your views and I have mine. We agree on terrorism us evil. I also believe priesthood should be abolished and all Hadiths destroyed because they are not what Muhammad brought.
………………………………….
As noted here many times, one need not rely on the Hadith for confirmation of terrorism–although every pious Muslims embraces them as well.
Here is the Qur’an itself:
“Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah…”
–Qur’an 3:151
Those who “join companions will Allah” are either pagans or Christians who believe in Jesus. For that they are to be terrorized by violence.
And this Ayat tells pious Muslims to behead unbelievers:
“Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ‘I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'”
–Qur’an 8:12-13
There are, of course, dozens more such Suras.
*This* is what “worldcitizen1919” is lauding here.
worldcitizen1919 says
The overwhelming majority of devout knowledgeable Muslims are good, pure upright people who never did anyone any harm due to their belief in Muhammad and the Quran.
Sandra Lee Smith says
The “overwhelming majority” of Muslims were out in the streets CELEBRATING the deaths of nearly 3,000 souls, mostly Americans, who had done NONE of them any harm, on 9/11, and again after Nidal Hasan murdered 13 in Ft Hood, and so on. They are following the same murderous text as the ones doing the killing; and NOT doing anything to stop it, which makes them complicit.
worldcitizen1919 says
Christ taught to love never hate. Muslims, the majority are good people who never harm anyone.
1.6 billion Muslims did not celebrate the attacks on America. Most Muslims have never harmed anyone nor wished for the harm of anyone.
And Muslims don’t slander Jesus. They revere Him as a Prophet. Muhammad was the greatest teacher of Christianity as His Revelation spread belief in Jesus to over 1.6 billion people and counting.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
‘Scuse me, but relegating Yeshua to the level of a mere prophet of lesser stature than Muhammad IS slandering the Living Son of Yhwh God!\
A few of the Muslims may have missed the street parties, but there were more than 10% out celebrating in the streets around the Muslim world.s
worldcitizen1919 says
Prophet, Christ as (Thompson Chain references)
Deuteronomy 18:18
Matthew 21:11
Matthew 21:46
Mark 6:15
Luke 7:16
Luke 13:33
Luke 24:19
John 4:19
John 6:14
John 7:40
John 9:17
Acts 3:22
Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
MAT13.57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Jesus called Himself a Prophet as well.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Yes, Yeshua did fulfill the role of prophet, but He went FAR beyond that as well, and much more than Muhammad could ever hope to be!
Western Canadian says
“worldcitizen1919 says
February 14, 2016 at 9:34 pm
The overwhelming majority of devout knowledgeable Muslims are good, pure upright people who never did anyone any harm due to their belief in Muhammad and the Quran.”
I think I’ve figured this poor loon out…. He was exposed to a ‘backwards day’ at school as a youngling, and didn’t know it was to end when they went home!! Which is why he gets everything backwards!! He inflates (massively) the Jewish/Christian Holy books levels of violence and twists them into something even worse…, and lowers (massively) the violence and hatred in the unholy koran, then assumes they are similar!! All because he was in the washroom when the rest of the students were told ‘games over!! time to go home!’ !!!
The only muslims who are good and reject violence are NOT the devout…. The devout are the ones doing the sadistic butchering, rape etc. and who quote their hate manual before, during, and after they commit their crimes against humanity. The muslims who are decent and good people, are the ones who know nothing of it’s hideous and vicious ‘teachings’ of the ultimate criminal, mad mo, or reject them due to their innate decency, which puts them outside of the hate cult called islam.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
Think you may be onto something there, WC! Something is certainly distorted in his thinking.
Western Canadian says
It is really amazing, that someone as ignorant, full of drivel and rubbish as you are, can pretend to yourself that you are a font of knowledge, You know less than nothing of Christ and Christianity, and you insult people with your deliberate lies about that which you know only lies. You are sick, and sickening. You have the blood of 270,000,000 murdered by islam (RTC), but not merely murdered, but butchered in a manner that even rabid animals could not descend to. You lie about those who murder in the unholy name of islam, even today, and think WE are in error, for rejecting your prostitution to mass murder…. You are actually evil, and your crimes have not been made clean by your lying. To compare any decent human being, or real and legitimate prophet to vermin like mad mo, is itself a crime against humanity, and one that you absolutely love to commit, which is what you do with every single one of your sickening, dishonest, and vicious posts. You are a criminal, guilty of crimes against humanity, God, and his creation. You are vile.
worldcitizen1919 says
Maybe when you’re through this tantrum we can have some dialogue?
Champ says
worldcitizen1919 wrote:
Maybe when you’re through this tantrum we can have some dialogue?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Without question, “worldclassclown” is the most obtuse, obnoxious, vile, devious, lying troll that I’ve run across on Jihad Watch–oh, and he’s dangerous, too. He’s dangerous to those that might be stupid enough to fall for his incredible lies. And sadly, there are a lot of stupid/gullible people out there. Sooo, if you find yourself perhaps agreeing with “worldclassclown”, then you’re as dumb as a rock, so snap out of it.
BTW, there’s no such thing as having a “dialogue” with this clown. And he can’t differentiate between a tantrum and the TRUTH.
GET. LOST> ALREADY
gravenimage says
The dishonest “worldcitzen1919” wrote:
And Muslims don’t slander Jesus. They revere Him as a Prophet.
……………………………
The Muslim “Jesus”–really, “Isa”–is *nothing* like the Jesus of the Christian Gospels. Not only is he not the Savior, he is not a healer or a peacemaker, either.
His main purpose in the Last Days, in fact, is to *kill Christians*.
Christians might be forgiven for considering this to be slanderous.
More:
Muhammad was the greatest teacher of Christianity as His Revelation spread belief in Jesus to over 1.6 billion people and counting.
……………………………
My God, what rot. Does “worldcitizen1919” think we don’t know that there are at least 2.3 billion Christians in the world–many more than there are Muslims?
worldcitizen1919 says
By Muhammad being the greatest teacher of Christianity I meant that 1.6 billion people more now also believe in Jesus because they accept the Quran and Muhammad. That’s a lot of people.
Angemon says
worldcitizen1919 posted:
“By Muhammad being the greatest teacher of Christianity I meant that 1.6 billion people more now also believe in Jesus because they accept the Quran and Muhammad. That’s a lot of people.”
Do those 1.6 billion people believe that:
a) Jesus Christ is the Son of God
b) Jesus Christ died on the Cross
c) Jesus Christ was brought back to life
If not, then they’re not Christians, are they?
worldcitizen1919 says
They believe in Jesus as a Prophet like He called Himself. Th also believe in the Virgin birth.
Luke 4:24
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Prophet, Christ as (Thompson Chain Bible)
Deuteronomy 18:18
Matthew 21:11
Matthew 21:46
Mark 6:15
Luke 7:16
Luke 13:33
Luke 24:19
John 4:19
John 6:14
John 7:40
John 9:17
Acts 3:22
Angemon says
Virgin birth or not, people who don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the Cross and came back to life are not, by definition, Christians.
worldcitizen1919 says
No, they are not Christians but they believe in Jesus anyway all 1.6 billion of them.
Angemon says
Do they also believe that they are to fight those who do not believe in allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what allah and his messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth, even if they are Jews and Christians, until they pay the jizyah while they are humiliated.
worldcitizen1919 says
They are to fight only those who attack them according to the Quran (2:190) and the tax was a compensation to be paid as a recompense for injuries, deaths and destruction of property as a result of being attacked.
However, the Umayyads, lusting for power and wealth embarked on offensive war against the law of the Quran and imposed tax on all non believers again against the law of the Quran.
It is not a tax. The correct English translation is ‘compensation’ or ‘recompense’ and it was supposed to only, apply to war not everyday life.
Angemon says
Chapter nine lays it quite clear, worldcitizen: muslims were not to let polytheists enter Mecca. Since that would impact on the Meccan economy by cutting them off from the steady supply of money from pilgrimages, muhammad assured them that allah would provide for them: muslims were to fight Jews and Christians until they converted or paid the jiziya (quran 9:28-29).
worldcitizen1919 says
We understand that the war was an ongoing process over about 25 years. The initial battle parameters were revealed in the Quran in Medina 2:190 as well as 2:256 no compulsion in religion.
Any attacked were based upon attacking freedom of religion, the Meccans wanted to stop freedom of belief. All responses were made from attacks first initiated by the Meccans.
Christians and Jews who didn’t join in the war were given safe passage, those who sided with the Quraysh were fought.
The tax was a war tax forced upon the attackers to recompense for the damage and lives taken.
The Umayyads later changed all these laws to suit their own selfish purposes.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
No, they believe in Muhammad’s made-up version, Isa, not the Jesus (Yeshua) of the Bible. There are many other false “Jesus'” in whom a great many people believe to their detriment as well.
worldcitizen1919 says
All humanity were created in the image of God.
So Muslims are human beings too so I love them as I would love a Christian, Jew or aetheist. I don’t look at what religion a person is I see God in everyone as God made man in His image and that includes Muslims , Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Baha’is and non believers, in short, all humanity so we see all humanity as our brothers and sisters.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (genesis 1:27)
Sandra Lee Smith says
It’s not about hating people; but about hating an ideology that hates its very Creator. Accepting that ideology in any way is a flat denial of Yhwh God, your Creator. Yes. He made us all in His image; and then He gave us each free will to choose HIs way or not; but EVERY choice has consequences, and His love is sufficient to even allow you to CHOOSE hell, because you reject His way and His free gift of salvation, according to that way.
worldcitizen1919 says
Then you pray for me please. I can always use prayers and you are sincere. I am far from perfect.
Sandra Lee Smith says
Isa is NOT the same person as Yeshua, the Messiah Who came to us and Whose story is recorded in the Gospels. Isa will be at war with the disciples of Yeshua of the Bible.
gravenimage says
“worldcitizen1919” wrote:
No, they are not Christians but they believe in Jesus anyway all 1.6 billion of them.
……………………..
I’ve already made it quite clear that a “Jesus” whose main purpose is to murder Christians is not a Jesus Christians would recognize as Christianity.
The Muslim “Jesus” is described in Islamic texts as being a “witness against the Christians”.
Champ ✞ says
worldcitizen1919 wrote:
All humanity were created in the image of God.
So Muslims are human beings too so I love them as I would love a Christian, Jew or aetheist. I don’t look at what religion a person is I see God in everyone as God made man in His image and that includes Muslims , Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Baha’is and non believers, in short, all humanity so we see all humanity as our brothers and sisters.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (genesis 1:27)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, your ideas are not altogether true …
Question: “Are we all God’s children, or only Christians?”
Answer: The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).
In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as God’s children. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-3). Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”
We become God’s children when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).
Here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html
worldcitizen1919 says
I think the passage in the Bible which says man was created in God’s image means all of us are family and bothers and sisters to each other because we were all created in the same image.
The reward of punishment for our deeds or/and misdeeds may be different depending upon what we believed and how we lived but we are basically all family created by one God in His Image.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
No, I’m sorry but it only means that each has the OPPORTUNITY to BECOME part of Yhwh God’s family; it doesn’t make it so, unless each individual makes the choice by his free will to do so, according to the model set forth for that to happen.s
Western Canadian says
“Humanity does have a bloodstained history as much from Christians as Muslims and other religions and races as well.”
Just another lie from a loser who tries to gain leniency from his muslim overloads by lying about them and licking their boots. Nothing else in all of human history, can even come close to the crimes against humanity committed by devout muislims. muslims lead the way in rape, slavery, theft, kidnapping, destruction of historical treasures, sadism towards animals as well as nonnuslims, and of course, murder by the most vicious and sadistic forms of butchery that sadists can conceive of, and in numbers that no other groups in history (not the nazis, not the communists, not any other group), can match. You lie about all other groups to drag them down to the level of your muslim overlords, and lie about your muslim overlords to try to raise them up to the standards of the average human being. And you fail miserably on all counts, and all efforts. You truly are just as criminal, and are just as much guilty of murders committed by muslims, as the one holding the knives.
Mark Swan says
World Citizen 119…You are indeed getting the ego massage of all time aren’t You…some of the Best Commentors on this sight have responded and you reciprocated…again and again and again…You Sir are indeed an enigma wrapped inside of a riddle…tied-up with a string of what the heck.
This is the only time I will respond to You.
More Ham Ed says
It’s another attempt to whitewash islam. No other “religion” on the face of the earth has to have so much propaganda, whitewashing, excuses, and daily help, there’s a fallen-angel reason for that.
27788 deadly ISLAMIC terror attacks since 9/11.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
Greytigertx says
This stupid POS is holding the Koran in his left (unclean) hand. He should be beheaded for insulting the Koran.
pumbar says
This “study” is not science.
It is propaganda with the sole intention of whitewashing islam.
The author is either trying to secure funding by showing his PC credentials or has already secured funding and is thoroughly compromised.
RodSerling says
I’ve read Tom Anderson’s three blog posts. This is not a study. It is has the appearance of an empty marketing ploy; a gimmick. There is no data, aside from a few summary figures that don’t really tell us much about what is actually true of the predominant meanings and messages of the three different texts. Yet he could have easily provided the data. There is no adequate description of the methodology/procedure, so we really have no clue as to what he did or how others could reproduce the results. Yet he could have easily provided the description of the methods/procedure. This is obviously not intended to be a study. Rather, I believe Anderson’s intention was to do something “controversial” on a “sensitive” topic, in order to advertise and promote his product (Odintext). (That seems to be working). At the same time as it is just provocative enough to draw attention to the product, he “reports” just the “right” results to prevent angering Muslims and the politically-correct elites and clients. How convenient that he did not find the Quran to be more violent! Does anyone seriously think that he’d promote his product, in this day and age, with results that found the Quran to be more violent? How many attempts did he make before he got these results?
As Robert noted, there are no literal commands for believers to carry out violence against others in the New Testament, whereas the Quran is loaded with such commands, as well as commands to carry out violent punishments. Yet Anderson claims that the New Testament has more mentions of violence than the Quran. If so, then his measure is obviously invalid, misleading at best.
Western Canadian says
Interesting take on his shabby effort…. and if he is selling his rather simplistic program, i suspect you are right on all counts.
Guest says
There are no groups of Christians killing people and justifying their actions with the Bible? Really? That is a bold-faced lie. Sure, those groups are small, not well-funded and not well-known in America, but they exist. In the Congo, in South East Asia (if not now than in recent times), India, and you even have had anti-abortion Christian terrorists killing people in America and justifying their actions with the Bible.
Robert Spencer says
A bold-faced lie? Not really. The Lord’s Resistance Army is much more of a presence in Western Islamic apologetics than it is in real life. What’s more, it is funded by the Islamic government of Sudan, reflects the theology of no Christian sect, and is endorsed by no Christian sect. Likewise those who killed abortionists were condemned by all Christian sects, and there is no actual Scriptural basis for such killings, while warfare against and subjugation of unbelievers is a staple of Islamic teaching among all Islamic sects and schools of jurisprudence.
gravenimage says
All true.
Mark Swan says
World Citizen 119…You are indeed getting the ego massage of all time aren’t You…some of the
Best Commentators on this sight have responded and you reciprocated…again and again and again…
You Sir are indeed an enigma wrapped inside of a riddle…tied-up with a string of what the heck…
The problem with feeding egos is they never ever get enough…it will always crave more attention…
You will be stuck with a monster between Your ears…if You can’t feed it what it wants…it will eat You.
This is the only time I have or will respond to You.
Western Canadian says
Excellent reply, and I must confess that when i first read it, i scanned it quickly and my low level of dyslexia kicked in…..
“You Sir are indeed an enigma wrapped inside of a riddle…tied-up with a string of what the heck”
I read the 6th word as enema,,,, rather fitting, I think.
worldcitizen1919 says
I take that as a compliment because when the people of ignorance and error denounce me then I KNOW I am right and you are the people who are as confused as hell and I feel very sorry for you that your minds cannot look at things without bias and extreme prejudice.
The press and media has taken you for one big ride.
Very sorry for you guys.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
What arrogance to believe that so many of us, who are posting from different areas, and not acquainted, yet in agreement on important issues on which the MEDIA is blatantly as wrong as you are, are all wrong and you’re the only 1 who could be right! Here’s the thing; Western Canadian claims NO particular faith; Graven Image hasn’t stated hers, and neither have I, in terms of “denomination”. We come from different backgrounds and locales; yet see the SAME set of truths in the Bible, because they ARE truths; and the same sets of errors in what you keep presenting, again because they ARE errors. Something you should just maybe ponder.
worldcitizen1919 says
I believe in the Bible too and this is my position on Jesus and Christianity. We believe very strongly in Jesus. And as the Son of God too.
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended….” (Shoghi Effendi)
Sandra Lee Smith says
Now you’re lying to yourself, as well as the rest of us. You absolutely and unequivocally cannot believe Yeshua is Who He said He is, and turn around and try to deny the rest by seeking to “unite” the utterly incompatible beliefs of other religious systems to His way. Either HE is “THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life” as He said, or He’s a liar or madman; but you can’t have it both ways. If He is wHO He said, then the efforts to create 1 religion of all the various systems is the lie. It has to be. There’s simply NO compatibility!
worldcitizen1919 says
I’d give my life for Jesus. Really. If someone held a knife to my throat to give up my belief in Him I would prefer death. Don’t you read about the Baha’is in Iran who die and accept all manner of persecution and prefer death than to recant their Faith? That Faith includes Jesus Christ as the Soan of God and belief in the Virgin Mary and Immacukate Conception.
I know you can’t understand how I see unity. I can only point to the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah.
This is another explanation about how we understand other religions.
ALL RELIGIONS RESPECTED
“The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind. (Shoghi Effendi)
Sandra Lee Smith says
IF you truly believe Yeshua is the Son of Yhwh and Who He claims to be, and believe what He said about Himself, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the rest of what you’re peddling here. This is not a multiple choice option here; Yeshua IS THE ONLY WAY, the ONLY TRUTH, and the ONLY source of Life, period. Nothing and no one else can be equated, brought into alignment with, or in any other way share in that. Yeshua was very clear on that, in His warnings that there would be many false messiahs and prophets claiming to have a new revelation or to be Him returned etc. There is no middle ground or third option available. It doesn’t matter WHO said it or whether you believe it enough to die for it; that doesn’t change the facts.
worldcitizen1919 says
John 14:2
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
So all the religions will unite and there will be one religion believing in one God
Sandra Lee Smith says
The operative phrase here is “in my Father’s house”; in MY father’s house we obeyed his rules; not made up our own. And that’s also true in my Heavenly Father’s house! The “many mansions” have nothing whatever to do with many paths; or ways in. There is only 1 way in; it may be followed by the sheep from other flocks, meaning Gentile peoples, but there’s STILL only that 1 entry. Any other way in is false and will only lead to punishment, same as someone breaking into a house unwelcome.
worldcitizen1919 says
Hi Sandra.
I agree that there is One God (Shephered) and all humanity is His flock and He wants all of us to follow in His ways and Path.
God created us all so He wants us all. No matter which religion we are He loves us and wants us all to be His loving children and follow in His Ways and Path.
Sandra Lee Smiths says
Yes, He loves us, but that and about $4-5 will get you a cup of latte! The point is there is ONLY 1 way into heaven and that 1 way is repentance, then salvation by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus, which every other religion denies, categorically; ergo, they are not and will never be paths to His house or to salvation, and we, as Christians can have no union with any of them, PERIOD. They may well all unite, but it’ll be under Satan’s banner, not that of Yeshua Ha Mashiach.
worldcitizen1919 says
What about the image of God that you and I were created in?
Doesn’t that make us children of the One Father God and brothers and sisters to each other?
I see you as a kind sister and fellow human being.
worldcitizen1919 says
It also says in the last days that:
2PE3.3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2PE3.4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
The point is there will always be people who will deny Christ’s second coming.
All eyes shall see Him is a gradual process as in Micah 5:2-4 where it says
MIC5.2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel
for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
Christ was crucified and His greatness did not happen immediately. It took centuries for that greatness to appear and it was not in an instant.
So shall every eye see Him will not be an overnight event but it is happening now. People are gradually awakening to the fact that Baha’u’llah is the Father promised by Christ and though there will be deniers it will be accepted all over the world in time like Chrustianity was.
Sandra Lee Smith says
That’s not what Jesus Himself said about His return, and all alive seeing Him return. As lightning flashing from the east to the west; which we know happens in literally a flash, an instant, so it will be that ALL humanity will see His return to this Earth. Nothing gradual about that!
worldcitizen1919 says
We still see all humanity as family regardless of religion, race, nationality. And you are my sister.
Western Canadian says
For anyone unfamiliar with the postings of the self proclaimed world citizen…..
He is a total fraud, merely a troll on steroids. He claims that to reject mohamed, a filthy and vicious criminal responsible for the 1400 year crime against humanity commonly called ‘islam’, is to reject Christ. Both the Bible and the vicious and hate filled koran are in complete agreement, and both are the word of the same ‘god’, according to this loon. Yes, the hate cult of islam, that has embraced slavery for it’s entire 1400 year history of bigotry, theft, rape, and vicious butchery, is the same as the imperfect expressions of Christianity, that reject bigotry, theft, rape, slavery and mass murder, are actually in full agreement with each other. According to this delusional fool, or lying fool, whichever he may be. This raving lunatic accomplishes this act of idiotic buffoonery, by taking the Bible out of context to make it sound worse, while deliberately lying about what is in the vicious and hate filled koran, to try to pretend it is not the blueprint for the execution and perpetuation of all crimes ever committed against humanity. He is toxic, an habitual liar, and not worth the time of day. He may refer you to a website that he claims proves that the Bible and the filthy and hate fill koran are in agreement, but you will find it is nothing but pages of hyper-inflated drivel, of a kind usually offered up by those who have nothing, know nothing, and offer nothing of value.
worldcitizen1919 says
That’s your right of reply and I fully respect that.
I’m only against what us evil and bad not 1/3 of the earth’s population.
I believe equally in the Bible and Quran. That’s my unshakeable conviction.
You see it differently that’s your right to freedom thought and I respect that.
I welcome fdialogue. (Bring it ON!!!)
Western Canadian says
For anyone unfamiliar with the postings of the self proclaimed world citizen…..
He is a total fraud, merely a troll on steroids. He claims that to reject mohamed, a filthy and vicious criminal responsible for the 1400 year crime against humanity commonly called ‘islam’, is to reject Christ. Both the Bible and the vicious and hate filled koran are in complete agreement, and both are the word of the same ‘god’, according to this loon. Yes, the hate cult of islam, that has embraced slavery for it’s entire 1400 year history of bigotry, theft, rape, and vicious butchery, is the same as the imperfect expressions of Christianity, that reject bigotry, theft, rape, slavery and mass murder, are actually in full agreement with each other. According to this delusional fool, or lying fool, whichever he may be. This raving lunatic accomplishes this act of idiotic buffoonery, by taking the Bible out of context to make it sound worse, while deliberately lying about what is in the vicious and hate filled koran, to try to pretend it is not the blueprint for the execution and perpetuation of all crimes ever committed against humanity. He is toxic, an habitual liar, and not worth the time of day. He may refer you to a website that he claims proves that the Bible and the filthy and hate fill koran are in agreement, but you will find it is nothing but pages of hyper-inflated drivel, of a kind usually offered up by those who have nothing, know nothing, and offer nothing of value.
You don’t know the meaning of the word ‘dialogue’, and only offer lies and insults. You are evil, lying about the filthy koran and those twisted enough to follow it, which includes you. You sicken and disgust any decent human being.
Guest77 says
This is false, meaningless, and misleading at best. A prime example of the Regressive liberal fallacy of false equivalence. The study references the emotions of Joy, Anticipation, Anger, Disgust, Sadness, Fear/Anxiety, and Trust. None of these emotions indicate a tendency to violence. In fact, maybe the Quran is just more “bipolar”? And “anger” isn’t always bad if it’s justifiable. The Bible retells a lot of pseudo-historical narrative, it doesn’t necessarily condone violence because it says someone pulled out a sword and attacked a Roman soldier. Cherry-picking words also ignores context; “Thou shalt not kill” would be counted as one of the “violent” texts in this so-called “study.” Note that graphs are often used to give a veneer of research quality when none exists. And it’s also interesting because Islam regards the Torah and New Testament as part of the historical narrative of their religion because they also believe in Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus. If you look at the context, it is plain to see with a literal interpretation that Jesus condemned violence of any kind, even going so far as to be crucified without fighting back. Jesus is a complete pacifist who argued that God would take care of his people. This is in stark contrast to Muhammad who later in his life went on military conquests to fight the enemies of Islam.
Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to kill, while Muslims are told to kill many times in the Qur’an (2:191, 4:89, 9:5, 47:4, etc.). The Qur’an sanctifies murder, rape, slavery, looting as something that pleases Allah and contains a chapter entitled ‘The Spoils of War’ and verses that authorize honor-killing (K.18:74, 18:80-81), wife beating and even wife murder (K. 4:14; 24:2; 17:32; 4:34; 38:44). Allah wants Muslims to kill the infidels (unbelievers) wherever they are found (Koran 9:5), and that peace will come only to those who submit to him (Koran 8:17, 48:29, and 65). The Koran also has Allah saying that unbelievers should be killed (Koran 2:191, 3:141, 4:104, 4:89, 8:12-16, 9:5, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52…), that Muslim apostates should be killed or chastised (Koran 2:39, 2:85, 3:85, 3:106, 4:89, 16:106, and 47:25-28), that the heads and fingers of unbelievers should be cut off (Koran 5:33, 8:12, and 47:4), and that Muslims should fight and humiliate Jews and Christians (Koran 5:18 and 9:29). Allah orders Muslims not to take Jews, Christians and other unbelievers as friends (Koran 3:28, 5:51 and 9:23), and will not forgive Christians (Koran 4:48 and 4:116). Muhammad taught to put the infidels to death wherever they were found (Koran 2:191, 2:244, 4:89, 5:36, 9:5, and 9:29), urged Muslims to fight the unbelievers who are close (Koran 9:123), mentioned that fighting is obligatory (Koran 2:216), and mandated the conquering of those relatives who opposed Muslims because loyalty to Islam overrode all other human bonds (Koran 9:23-24, and 58:22).
Ultimately, people are going to cherry-pick anyway, so what’s more important are objective measures. I don’t care about word count, but BODY COUNT. In the last century, Islam’s body count far exceeds that of Christianity. There have been 18,000 deadly terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam in just the last ten years alone.
Bottom Line: The study doesn’t even indicate what the headline suggests it does.