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Jihad Watch

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Obama: “Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind”

Feb 4, 2016 4:30 pm By Robert Spencer

Obama said: “The Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind.”

This is what the Qur’an really says:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land — it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one — it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. (5:32)

First, note that this is not a general moral principle applying to everyone, as Obama implied, but one only for the Children of Israel. Nor is it is not a general prohibition of killing: there are big exceptions for those who kill “for a soul or for corruption in the land.” And it concludes that even after this command was given, “many of them, after that … were transgressors” — so all it is really saying is that Allah gave a command to the Children of Israel and they transgressed against it. It isn’t anything more than yet another Qur’anic castigation of the Jews.

Also, it is followed in the Qur’an by 5:33, which specifies the punishment for the corruption and transgressions of the Children of Israel: “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.”

Thus this passage is explaining what must be done with Jews who reject Muhammad, not dictating lofty moral principles. Ibn Warraq sums it up: “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!”

QuranRifle10

From Obama’s speech yesterday at the Islamic Society of Baltimore:

But across the Islamic world, influential voices should consistently speak out with an affirmative vision of their faith. And it’s happening. These are the voices of Muslim clerics who teach that Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind. (Applause.) These are the voices of Muslim scholars, some of whom join us today, who know Islam has a tradition of respect for other faiths; and Muslim teachers who point out that the first word revealed in the Koran — igra — means “read” — to seek knowledge, to question assumptions. (Applause.)

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Filed Under: Barack Obama, Featured, Qur'an Tagged With: muhammad


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Comments

  1. Rita says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:34 pm

    If it looks like a muslim
    If it walks like a muslim
    if it lies like a muslim
    then it probably IS a muslim

    • Mark Swan says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 10:08 pm

      Good One Rita

    • Lia says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 4:01 am

      Poor Mr Obama: he sounds totally at sea. He quotes the one piece in the qur’an that was directly pinched from the Talmud.

      • old white guy says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 8:35 am

        Thereby proving that Obama really is as stupid as he seems. The man is a scholar of absolutely nothing.

      • Bobby Stern says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 12:37 pm

        Right you are Lia!!

    • Fatimah says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 1:32 am

      Wow do you know those comments you are making offend God …because those so called noises your talking about are praising God ….inform yourselves people……translations are available all over the web…..be fore you offend your God any more….that is if you fear and have respect him….praises to God ..forgive them for they know not what they do…..can’t use that excuse anymore…inform yourselves….or expect the wrath of God on judgement day…..

      • Rutmark says

        Feb 6, 2016 at 1:34 pm

        Correction! YOUR GOD ALLAH.. Better known as SATAN! Islam is NOT a Religion it is in fact a SATANIC DEATH CULT! ALL Muslims are ordered to Kill ALL infidels or Non Believers? The Penalty for Apostasy (Leaving the Cult) is DEATH! If it is such a wonderful Religion of Peace why would there be a Death Penalty for leaving?

  2. ICH says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:35 pm

    Obama is one shady and dishonest dude

    I think he is more despicable than Bush and Clinton combined

    • Neil Jennison says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:39 pm

      You are right, the man is a at best a lily livered, pathetic, spineless excuse for a man…….or at worst, a Muslim traitor.

      • mortimer says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 12:50 am

        Obama is a sincere Christian of the Leftist variety. He is not a Muslim.

        However, Obama’s knowledge of Islam is rudimentary. A caring member of Obama’s staff should make him aware of Ibn Warraq’s analysis of this much misunderstood passage (Koran 5.32), since it actually means close to the opposite of what Obama thinks. The passage is actually a death threat for those who criticize Islam. The passage is actually a call for censorship through vigilantism by Mohammed’s followers.

        Secondly, Obama’s idea that Muslims should study for themselves is totally opposed to the doctrine of TAQLID (blind following of Islamic teachings without asking for the evidence).

        Muslims do not use critical thought (as Obama requests)…Muslims use AUTHORITARIAN thought.

        If we combine points 1 and 2 above we get vigilantism + censorship of non-Islamic thought.

        The result is that Muslims will have a monopoly of speech. Non-Muslims will lose their freedom to disagree and dispute.

        Why are politicians not calling Obama out on this?

        • Azacque says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 1:06 am

          Why are Americans not taking this liar to court for treason?
          He has pulled more crimes than Al Capone.

        • DaBears says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 2:35 am

          Lol. Y’all crack me up

        • Screeminmeeme says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 9:09 pm

          No Christian would mock the Bible as Obama has…on video.
          No Christian would question the existence of heaven and hell…as Obama has.
          No Christian would contradict their Lord by saying that Jesus is just one of many ways to the Father, when Jesus said unequivocally that HE is the ONLY WAY.

          No one would profess to be a Christian and then show absolutely no interest whatsoever in the suffering and persecution of Christians in the ME.

          Jesus said that the signal characteristic of the Christian is his love for the ”brethren” (John 13:35). Obama has shown none. And in fact thru his policies he’s tried to marginalize Christianity’s influence on our culture and in various ways suppress the free expression of Christianity.

          No genuine Christian would defend, protect, and promote supremacist Islam which is antithetical to Christianity. One would have to be suffering from a religious schizophrenia to do so.

          No Christian would say that the Muslim call to prayer is the ”sweetest sound I know”.

          Obama is a fraud who understands the political imperative of claiming Christianity as his world view instead of admitting the truth that he is committed to slam.. Political expediency and his objective of promoting Islam and advancing the caliphate are what drive his duplicity and need to masquerade as something he is not.

          Obama acts exactly like a committed Muslim living a lie in order to fool the American people while working behind the scenes to undermine and defeat us.

          He should be arrested, tried and shot for being the traitor he is.

          BTW: While lying about Islam at the Prayer Breakfast, Obama impressed many people by quoting 2 Timothy 1:7…. but remember, the Bible records several instances when Satan quoted/misquoted Scripture and deliberately misapplied it while trying to persuade/deceive/sow doubt in his target audience.

          Let me quote another passage: Jesus was addressing the Pharisees who, like Obama and other Muslims, didn’t believe He was/is the Son of God. He rebuked them, saying:

          Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.
          Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
          Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
          Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
          Joh 8:46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
          Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

          .

        • ML/NJ says

          Feb 7, 2016 at 1:03 pm

          Christians do not make a habit of referring to the Koran as “Holy.” But Obama does.

  3. jihad3tracker says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:39 pm

    AS MOST OF YOU ALREADY KNOW —- AFFIRMED BY WHAT ROBERT HAS WRITTEN ABOVE —- THIS VERSE IS THE ONE MUSLIMS ALWAYS CITE, BUT NEVER THE FULL VERSION AND CONTEXT.

    Pathetic desperate Islamlover Hussein Obama has his back to the wall — and it is his own arrogant fault for thinking he can play games with the survival of America. Muhammad would be proud of such behavior.

    • quotha raven says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 5:42 am

      To jihad3tracker – “…but never the full version and context”

      Agreed. AND, essential to understanding how specious the partial citation is, one has to know what is meant by “an innocent.” Obama said: “The Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind.”

      No infidel, no Jew or Christian or Buddhist or apostate, in fact, NO ONE who doesn’t embrace and adhere to Islam in all its glory, is considered “an innocent”. .

      This is a tricky way of manipulating and misleading people. The more conventional understanding of “an innocent” is twisted in the incomplete version of this verse to hide the real meaning. Certainly this is not accidental, but calculated, in the case described here.

      Obama attended an Islam Madrasah school for several years in Indonesia and has had close Muslim associations in one way or another his whole life. He is no fool; he spoke deliberately, with intention to deceive..Don’t forget that his alleged Kenyan father was a Muslim, as was his adoptive father, Soetero.

      I believe Obama knew full well how dishonest.he was being, like the expert liar that he is.

      Cheers!

      quotha raven

      • Oppressaphobe says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 7:09 am

        Very good point!

        WHO IS “INNOCENT” IN THE EYES OF MUSLIMS?

        Certainly not the infidel, which is the entire non muslim world!!!

        Does this guy THINK WE ARE THAT STUPID?

        or are we that stupid??

        • Pong says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 12:49 pm

          Well, he has a good reason to think this way: you elected him twice.

        • Pong says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 1:25 pm

          There is such a thing as a collective responsibility. You are shifting the responsibility to the others. It is almost like a moslem says that because he himself didn’t kill anybody – islam is a religion of peace.
          I believe you didn’t vote for obama, so your guilt is demiliterised, but not eliminated. We are all responsible of anything in our house. I am responsible for what my children are doing.
          Look at some posts on this blog. Some are saying that if it is not Trump (Cruz, Rubio ect.), the are staying home. Not understanding that by doing so, they in fact voting for the opposition.
          To correct a mistake the first stap is to admit one and ask yourself if you could’ve done more to avoid it.

  4. Michael Copeland says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:48 pm

    “Islam prohibits terrorism”?
    Really?
    “whoever refuses the principle of terror[ism] against the enemy also refuses the commandment of Allah the Exalted, the Most High, and His Shari’a.”
    Osama bin Laden, 2002
    http://politicallyshort.com/2015/11/28/islam-jihad-and-our-ignorance/
    “To instill terror into the hearts of the enemy is essential in the ultimate analysis to dislocate his faith.”
    Brigadier General S.K. Malik’s The Quranic Concept of War
    http://politicallyshort.com/2015/11/28/islam-jihad-and-our-ignorance/
    “the Quran directly commands us to commit terrorism, so why are we afraid of it?”
    Ragab Hilal Hamida member of Egyptian Parliament, 2006
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/nonie_darwish_an_arab_for_isra

    • Oppressaphobe says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 7:36 am

      When are we going to acknowledge the jihadi-elephant in the room?

      You cannot square the “muslims are peaceful” crap with the

      reality of constant, non-stop, world-wide and growing terrorism of Islamic people.

      This non-sense of hijacking has got to be refuted.

      We have to be more willing to talk about it instead of running for cover all the time.

      When people say Islam has been hijacked, we should ask them to explain exactly what that means?

      They are allowed to just use that phrase glibly and we’re suppose to say, “Oh, well then…you poor little victims. What can we do for you to protect you from the Islamophobes, pease tell us… want more money, more esteem in society, want the white house?”

      Because the white house is what these people are after. These pockets of muslim run areas in our country are just the beginning of the plan to take over our country. This has become an UNDEBIABLE fact of life. We remind me more of Europe every single day: ex. Obama visiting mosque and saying the total garbage he spewed. THIS IS ENGLAND, EXACTLY. THIS REMINDS ME OF CAMERON AND THE QUISLINGS IN PARLAIMENT YEARS AGO.

      Make no mistake of what this visit is all about. It’s about the rebranding of islam so the nose of the camel can come through the tent. Once the nose of the camel has come through the tent, the rest is EASY.

      If we don’t oppose this NOW, by speaking out against it and addressing the collection of lies that is islam and the lies Obama spewed at the mosque, then we will be ruled by islam from the white house. We already are living under plenty of sharia.

      We are living under sharia when we get accused of being islamophobic. That is the application of sharia on the American people. Look at the facts: If you cannot have your freedom of speech, protected by your constitution, in your own country and you accept that and don’t challenge it

      YOU ARE ALREADY SHARIA COMPLIANT!!!

      Burger King is sharia compliant so you are eating under sharia.

      You can’t have your Christmas trees, or your prayers ANYWHERE, but muslims can pray at work in a special room and that’s o.k. with these treasonous American companies that have paved the way because they wanted cheap labor…then you are living under sharia law.

      Somebody please refute that we in America are already living under Islamic, sharia law?

      The visit to the mosque is like the cherry on top, like how they build a mosque over the church when they conquer a Christian land!!!

      Wake up America. Obama has just signaled to muslims that they can take over in America and you know damned well that he has muslims set up already in intrenched political positions.

      You know damned well that his most important task over almost 8 years has been to solidify the muslim positions that they hold in all key areas of the body politic of America..

      ..we all know that islam is a political system and Christianity could never compete because, as presently construed, it IS NOT POLITICAL and has been thrown out of government using our own laws.

      Christians need to stand up to Islam. But when Ted Cruz talks about his faith

      HE GETS SLAMMED!!! We can’t have it both ways. Christianity requires faith, not weakness.

      Why are we criticizing Ted Cruz for being a Christian, but we we’re o.k. with Obama going to a mosque and signaling to muslims that they can take over our country now???

      • Oppressaphobe says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 8:55 am

        How much of sharia has already been imposed on americans?

        It’s important to think about this, as they gradually change the landscape under your feet. You won’t even notice it.

  5. Raymond Hietapakka says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:48 pm

    Wow…the most incomplete verse ever quoted. Those were the instructions for the Joooos? Why do they never quote the Koranic verse that comes right after this one?

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:46 pm

      Yes, Raymond–this is standard Muslim Taqiyya.

  6. Richard says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 4:55 pm

    Obama: “Islam prohibits terrorism”

    Islam

    Quran 3.151 “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! ”

    Quran 8.12 “…I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

    Muhammad “…I have been made victorious with terror…” Sahih Bukhari 52.220

    Muhammad “….I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils [of war] have been made lawful to me:…” Sahih Muslim 004.1062

    Muhammad “….I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):…” Sahih Muslim 004.1063 and 004.1066

    • anthony says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 11:11 pm

      @Richard, so are you saying that obama condemns allah for allowing mo to cause all this terror ? Obama is doomed.

      People like to read out of context to prove their own agenda, if obama read the whole ayat and the next ayat, it will not meet his agenda anymore. obama is misleading others.

  7. mccode says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:03 pm

    So, when one hears/reads BHO’s remarks, and then compares it to the full context from the Koran, a discrepancy presents itself. Either BHO is mistaken and ignorant of the true meaning of the passage, or is engaging in misrepresentation of the truth.

    Hmmmmmm…….

    What could the answer be?

    • Peter Charles says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:57 pm

      By their fruits ye shall know them. Obama has been a serial liar in the past, so…..what is different now?

    • Lee says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:10 pm

      The key word, even in Obama’s redaction, us “innocent.” Infidels aren’t innocent, especially not Jews or inhabitants of any land where Islam once ruled but now does not (Israel, Spain, France, Large swathes of Balkans, Bohemia, Austria, etc). In those cases it is an affront to Islam that Islam was overthrown. So the jihad to re-take half of Europe must begin, and lo, did an Imam not just proclaim they will do just that? Where can we get a Charles Martel these days? Not in the West. Maybe Trump can do a deal like the Byzantines did ( look where it got them).

  8. salim says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:22 pm

    Verse 5:32 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Quran.
    It reads:
    (Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely …)

    However, the verse makes two exceptions (underlined) from the decree.
    The first exception: If the killing was for revenge ( killing for revenge is allowed)
    The Second exception: If the killing was because the killed person has committed corruption ( Arabic fasad ).

    Fasad (corruption) is committing un-Islamic practices, such as:
    Drinking alcohol, Eating pork, Denying that Mohammed was a prophet, Denying that Allah is God, Believing that Jesus was crucified, Listening to music, Making/watching films, to name only a few. In short the normal lifestyle of non muslims.

    Conclusion: As far as non muslims concerned, there is nothing peaceful about the verse – they all should be killed.

    Allah’s decree, according to the verse, is for the Jews. But Muslims scholars regard decrees to apply Muslims as well.

    • Westman says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:41 pm

      A question for you Salim. We are instructed that President Obama was raised as a Muslim and later converted to Christianity. Muhammad, himself, had something to say about leaving Islam.

      Is Barack Obama an Apostate under Sharia Law?

      If so, why is there no fatwa to that effect, and why, as an apostate, is he greeted to warmly(terrorist groups excluded) by Muslims?

      • salim says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 6:48 pm

        There are many things that are relative in Islam (Islamic theory of relativity). This is one of them.
        By definition Obama is a murtad (apostate) but many Muslims prefer not to address the issue because: first: a good chunk of them feel he might be practicing taqyia (deceit ) and second: because the fact that a person like him “almost a muslim” occupies the white house is in itself a big victory.
        Other example of this relativity is the death of Diana and Al Fayed. Muslims (including Al Fayed’s father) insist that she was pregnant from Al Fayed (normally a very shameful accusation of adultery punishable by stoning) but in Diana’s case Muslims looked at the issue from another angle – an Arab having sex with a British royal (victory for the Arabs and defeat for the British).

      • gravenimage says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 6:53 pm

        My guess is because he’s proven so useful for the Ummah, Westman. It is also not clear when–or even *if*–Obama has actually left Islam.

        Here’s what Robert Spencer had to say on the matter, when Obama was just a candidate:

        “Barack Obama and Islamic apostasy”

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/02/barack-obama-and-islamic-apostasy

    • deja vu says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:47 pm

      Chapter 9 of the Qur’an, in English called “Ultimatum,” is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed “Ultimatum” in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5). This “verse of the sword” abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.

      Suyuti said that everything in the Qur’an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God’s kingdom on earth.

      The issue of abrogation in Islam is critical to understanding both jihad and da’wa, the propagation of Islam. Some Muslims may preach tolerance and argue that jihad refers only to an internal, peaceful struggle to better oneself. Western commentators can convince themselves that such teachings are correct. However, for learned Muslim scholars and populist leaders, such notions are or should be risible. They recognize that, in practice, there is compulsion in Islam. They take seriously the notion that the Qur’an teaches not just tolerance among religions, but tolerance among religions on the terms of Islam. To understand the challenge of the current Islamist revival, it is crucial for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine can have two faces, and that the Medinan face may very well continue to overshadow the Meccan face for a major portion, if not the majority, of contemporary Muslims.

      http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

      • deja vu says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 5:55 pm

        Apologies – I should have used quote marks to indicate that this is an extract from the article I have referenced.

        On a personal note, I’ve got to the pitch of not being able to stand the sight of BO, or hear his voice. He gives me the creeps.

        • Susan says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 7:05 am

          Something dangerous and evil lurks within Obama. I can’t tolerate the sight of him or the sound of his voice. It’s as though I see him covered in disgusting filth, and hearing him speak is absolutely repulsive.

        • Oppressaphobe says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 8:09 am

          Ditto on not being able to endure seeing or hearing this thing. I see him as the most evil creature that has ever lived. Didn’t realize so many feel the same way.

    • mortimer says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:50 pm

      Many thanks to you, Salim, for your excellent explanation. Non-Muslims haven’t a clue generally when reading Islamic texts, because they are layered with the explanations of Islamic jurists who often draw surprising conclusions such as you have mentioned.

      The most chilling part of the K.5.32 is that it actually authorizes VIGILANTE MURDER and HONOR KILLING!

      That is the REVERSE of what Obama wishes to believe!

      K.5.32 actually authorizes the REVENGE KILLINGS and REVENGE EXECUTIONS of the ISIS barbarians.

      Obama doesn’t know how far off target he is. One of his advisors should have the courage to tell him!

    • dom107 says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 7:16 pm

      Salim,
      This is very interesting why our politicians in the West misquote the Qur’an favourably when speaking to an Islamic audience and generally and it is not just Obama. GW Bush was the first one I heard say Islam was a peaceful religion after 9/11.It puzzled me at the time and I downloaded a copy of the Qu,r’an to my tablet to try to find some peaceful quotes .I was shocked at what I found because it was Kill ,Kill Kill ,Burn Mutilate all Jews Christians,Polytheists,Muslims who don’t follow his commands,Non believers of any kind from beginning to end
      It was impossible to misinterpret it .I couldn’t find any nice sentiments at all about non believers .I thought I must have downloaded the wrong book .I have also a book called Teach yourself Islam which describes all the practices of Muslims but must be considered sanitised because none of the hate/punishment stuff is mentioned at all It was written by a Muslim so are they hiding the nasty stuff while ISIS is actually practicing it.
      .Obama’s audience must have knew he misquoted it but applauded him anyway
      Islam at minimum needs to be reformed but unlike the Bible it claims to be the actual words of God so this cant easily happen. It must be ignored a lot in reality because even just before the Crusades we are now told by historians that Jews, Christians and Muslims rubbed along together okay in Jerusalem which was ruled by Islam at the time. It was really Pope Urban 2 who preached and encouraged the “Franks” which Europeans were known as in 1095 to recapture the Holy Land which they done with vigour and great blood lust but they were told it was okay and they would go straight to paradise if they died. Now where have I heard that before!!!.I hope you haven’t become a Christian Salim. Rational Atheism is the only answer to all this death cult madness.

      • salim says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 7:35 pm

        Because Quran is believed to be the exact word of Allah, Islam is solid like a bar of glass; any attempt to change its shape breaks it completely. I am an agnostic.

        • Rufolino says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 4:35 am

          Value your comments, Saleem. Speaking as an old man I have grown weary of opposing groups quoting religious verses and differing interpretations of holy books at each other.

          What one is left with, is the obvious fact that there is enough violent and hateful material in the Koran to encourage and justify Islamic terrorism !

          Yet no leader in the West has the courage to confront this fact or even comment on it. Today there is no Mr.Gladstone or Mr.Churchill. One fears for the future.

      • Annak says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 11:00 pm

        Jews , Christians and pagans got along fine before Islam.
        Muslims had been taking over Persia and Christian countries, great civilisations where yes everyone got along before Islam conquered and ruined it all.

        The Byzantine Emperor begged the pope for help after 400years of cruel jihad, the likes of which no Byzantine, Persian or Crusader had ever witnessed,
        Reading true history and not leftist revisionist lies is helpful. If you wish to read atheist Professors’views of the brave valiant Crusaders go to
        historyofjihad.org . Recommended reasing for everyone about Jihad,
        Pope whoever was not God or prophet and his decrees of paradise have nothing to do with Christianity ( Islamic) as much as some muslim leader might advise his followers to love their neighbours.
        I would have thought this was obvious .

        • Dom107 says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 6:35 am

          Well I am going by what the latest non biased scholars from both western and middle east universities are saying as on the currently running BBC programme the Crusades.I really resent the knee jerk response of people like you who accuse everyone they disagree with as being “leftist”. Protestants didn’t exist at the time of the Crusades so Christianity was the Roman Catholic Church and as such were the spiritual leaders of the European or Frankish powers.The promise of martyrdom would have been a great incentive to soldiers of the time as it is to Jihadists today.I don’t know what obscure sect you belong to but I would have thought it was obvious that the main stream of respected and respectable opinion would not concur with yours.Of course the Pope is not God (as God doesn’t exist)but the RCC claims he is gods representative on Earth and most of Christianity believed it, unless you think it didn’t start until Martin Luther and his reformation but that frankly is rediculous.

      • deja vu says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 11:20 pm

        dom107: ‘Islam at minimum needs to be reformed but unlike the Bible it claims to be the actual words of God so this cant easily happen.’

        Inaccurate on two counts: Islam is the opposite of *Christianity*, not ‘the Bible’. The Bible is regarded as the Word of God and is, therefore, inerrant.

        Secondly, yes Islam needs to be reformed, but Christianity itself was not the target of the Reformation but Roman Catholicism which had added much to Biblical teaching in order to fill its coffers and exert power and influence over the masses. It was thoroughly corrupt and still hasn’t managed to get back to basics. Though its power has diminished considerably, much of its structure, dogma and practice is unbiblical.

        The aim of the 16th century Reformation was to bring the church back to its simple 1st century roots, with Christ as its Head (not the Pope), and for the Bible to be translated from Latin to the vernacular. The Bible itself is unchanged and unchanging, as is God Himself.

        C S Lewis (certainly no intellectual slouch) said, ‘I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.’

        • Dom107 says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 7:01 am

          Inaccurate on two counts.I didn’t compare Islam with Christianity I compared the Qur’an with the Bible.I don’t. know what post your were reading for your second point but it is completely irrelevant to my last.I hold no brief for the RCC but if it doesnt think all the books of the bible are inspired by God I would agree and go further none of them are because God doesn’t exist !!! CS Lewis was a great writer of fantasy,fiction and children’s literature
          Enough said!!!????

        • deja vu says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 11:38 pm

          Dom107
          C S Lewis not good enough for you? How about Prof Richard Lewontin, Maxist geneticist and one of the world’s leaders in evolutionary biology:

          ‘We take the side of science *in spite* of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, *in spite* of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, *in spite* of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our *a priori* adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.’ (emphases in the original)

          Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): “When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.”

          Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

          Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): “Then we shall… be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we would know the mind of God.”

      • R says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 11:15 am

        “It must be ignored a lot in reality because even just before the Crusades we are now told by historians that Jews, Christians and Muslims rubbed along together okay in Jerusalem which was ruled by Islam at the time.”

        Uh, what books are you reading because they certainly aren’t on factual history?

        • Dom107 says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 4:45 pm

          Inaccurate on two counts.I didn’t compare Islam with Christianity I compared the Qur’an with the Bible.I don’t. know what post your were reading for your second point but it is completely irrelevant to my last.I hold no brief for the RCC but if it doesnt think all the books of the bible are inspired by God I would agree and go further none of them are because God doesn’t exist !!! CS Lewis was a great writer of fantasy,fiction and children’s literature
          Enough said!!!???
          For R on his post.This is the latest information from a BBC documentary currently running which upated a previous documentary a few years back..They have a 60 year archive on the history of the Crusades.The Christians in Jerusalem who were supposed to be maltreated by the Muslims were Eastern Christians who were hardly known by Western Christians whose historians wrote in Latin.Many were massacred by the Crusaders because they couldn’t tell the difference between them and the Muslims.The Eastern Christians history in their own language doesn’t mention any mistreatment at all but we have been handed down the Latin historians view which was heavy Romanic Catholic Church propaganda.Pope Urban 2 was trying to consolidate the position of the Western Church which was in disarray.Politicians often start a war when their position is under threat.The Eastern Christians did not need rescuing as Jerusalem was a functioning multicultural city.The Popes holy wars caused a reaction by Muslims called Jihad(Holy War) which Saladin their leader finally won over Richard the Lionheart, the English hero who was actually French and not a nice man but a extremely brutal but effective military commander not the romantic view of him passed down.Finally multiculturalism can work but not if the Muslims try to implement the Qur’an and Shariah Law

        • Angemon says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 7:01 pm

          Dom107 posted:

          “This is the latest information from a BBC documentary currently running ”

          Ah, that explains the lack of facts and abundance of fiction.

        • R says

          Feb 6, 2016 at 12:28 am

          Wow, none of that is even remotely close to being factual history and I’m pretty sure you didn’t get that from any documentary because all of it is absurdly false. Regardless, maybe you should stop watching BBC documentaries and actually read a book, so you don’t look like such an ignorant jackass. The problem is that, simply judging by your grammar and the way you express yourself, I’m not sure that will do any good, either.

  9. RT says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:25 pm

    And the most peaceful partial verse in the Quran by far……was borrowed from the Jewish Talmud!

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/If_Anyone_Slew_a_Person

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmo9MQV7ggM

    David Wood video clip

    “It was for this reason that man was first created as one person [Adam], to teach you that anyone who destroys a life is considered by Scripture to have destroyed an entire world; and anyone who saves a life is as if he saved an entire world.”

    Mishnah Sanherdrin 4:5

    • jihad3tracker says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:37 pm

      Hello RT —

      Thank you for mentioning David Wood, and one of his MANY videos about Islam. Here is the path to his blog: http://www.answeringmuslims.com. In another post today, I listed several superb videos, but here they are again:

      “The Jihad Triangle” — 5 minutes / “Three Stages of Jihad” — 25 minutes / “Taqiyya” — 7 minutes. They are all up on Youtube.

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:57 pm

      RT wrote:

      And the most peaceful partial verse in the Quran by far……was borrowed from the Jewish Talmud!
      …………………

      So true, RT–and Muslims do this to condemn Jews for (supposedly) not living up to their *own* scripture. Condemning killing *by Muslims* was never an Islamic value at all.

    • PRCS says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 8:41 pm

      The Full Monty:

      Qur’an 5:26 thru 5:32 is the Jewish tale of Cain and Abel–with their roles reversed. Written by Jews to Jews and plagiarized by whomever wrote the Qur’an.

      http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cain.html

      • Kepha says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 8:58 pm

        And right after these verses if speaks of making war on unbelievers and amputating their hands and feet on opposite sides!

        • PRCS says

          Feb 4, 2016 at 9:27 pm

          True, and thanks.

          I chose to emphasize what comes before 5:32 rather that what comes after it–as RS noted in his post.

      • Rita says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 9:26 pm

        Allah was a plagiarizer !
        Allah was a plagiarizer !
        Allah was a plagiarizer !

        And to this very day, his followers, the Allah-U-Akbarists still acquire everything by theft ! Including countries !

  10. RiseAKnight says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:28 pm

    If Obama had given that speech (with the things he said about freedom of religion and misquotes of the Koran) in a mosque in a country under Sharia Law he would have been dragged out as an apostate and beheaded. If he were ever faced with a (true) Muslim aggressor he would run and hide. This fool knows nothing about (true) Islam and that is why his administration can’t defeat it … not that he wants to defeat it. His heritage does not come from the stock of my Castillians who drove Muslims out of Spain or my wife’s stock, 32nd grand niece of the Master of the English Templars who fought at the Siege of Ascalon and led them at the Battle of Montgisard. People ask me why I hate Islam so much. I tell them it is in my blood. Obama’s stock is that of an African Muslim. And that is all he will ever be … a taqiyya spewing African Muslim.

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 7:08 pm

      It doesn’t matter what someone’s ancestors did–except as either inspiration or something to overcome.

      It’s Obama’s *own* actions that are so appalling.

      There are brave apostates who have overcome their Muslim heritage–Obama is not one of them.

    • Kepha says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 9:23 pm

      And, as the scion of East African Muslims, Obama’s folks were kidnapping and selling slaves long after the last American slaveholder was ruined by the Civil War. Sick joke’s on you, America. Alas.

  11. MsgtDubb says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:29 pm

    When the day comes when every Muslim believes that and the Muslim community rounds up every member of Isis, and the rest of the terrorist groups, by any name and executes them in the name of Allah, then and only then will I embrace Islam and welcome them into the fellowship of man. Until then, just stay away from me and mine.

  12. DRHazard says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:33 pm

    If you are a non-Muslim and quote the Quran correctly and in context you are called an Islamophobe. If you misquote it or completely ignore the context in order to paint Islam in a good light then you are called President of the United States.

  13. Champ says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:33 pm

    Hmm, more reasons why I think that obama is a *closet* muslim, even though he claims to be a Christian, but of course he is NOT …obama is a notorious lying snake, and they serve as proof that he certainly isn’t a Christian:

    Obama: “Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind”

    More obama lies.

    • خَليفة says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:12 pm

      When Obama lies, and we all know he lied in this case with his taqiyya-laced koran quote, we then should wonder why he would do that? What does he hope to accomplish in saying such lies? For JW readers the answer is easy. These the lies and deception only increase the harshness of any potential backlash.

      • underbed cat says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 1:52 pm

        Since he occupies the” office,” since he know the commands that call for the killing of infidels, he now has to cover himself and deny what he full knows, the next verse is a problem.

        What to me is more troubling at this point, is the government/military officials who do either know or do not know and are his cover by omission. Or once again the journalists who would be dismissed by speaking the truth… but also know that journalists abroad have paid the ultimate price due to the deception,.which hides the massive organizations in the U.S. that promote hate speech and deny, deceive and misdirect the ties to jihad and any terror group that follows the commands of the religion of peace. And the first mosque he visits, had ties to known terrorist and the unknown terrorist. There is only one book.

        The refugees just part of the process, to conquer thru population, also a religious command.

  14. Atheist7 says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:38 pm

    To make things simple – but hopefully not too simple – we need to push and propagate the Idea that there are effectively two Korans. The peaceful Koran of Mecca and the world conquest Koran of Medina. Unfortunately, the Medina Koran can in many cases replace the Mecca Koran. Obama maintains that the Mecca Koran is the only Koran. I am guessing, but I suspect that Obama is well aware of this and uses this lie of omission to advance the conquest of our civilization by Islam.

  15. oldblindjohn says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:44 pm

    Unbelievers are not considered innocents.

  16. Adrian says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:45 pm

    a similar incomplete quote that muslims love to play with is “there is no compulsion in religion” from 2:256

    except what they don’t tell u is the rest of that verse: about “rejecting false deities and Allah being all-Hearing and All-Knowing” (More fear and brain-washing)… plus the very next verse 2:257 which talks about “As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”

    PLUS, not to mention the HUNDREDS of verses about how un-believers and Hypocrites are damned and should be fought against and killed.

  17. elizabeth says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 5:46 pm

    Correction, Mr. President: The Islam of the Meccan period prohibited terrorism, but the Islam of the Medina period abolished the non-violence of the former period and commanded terrorism. Also: iInnocence” in Islam is defined as adherence to Mohammed’s life and teaching, and any demonstration of non-adherence to Mohammed means eternal guilt and punishment.

    • elizabeth says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 5:54 pm

      iInnocence” written just above should read “innocence”

  18. Nimrod says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:07 pm

    More lies based on omission and cultural projection.

  19. DRHazard says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:11 pm

    Out of the entire body of Islamic literature this verse is trotted out more than any other as evidence of the peaceful nature of Islam. Here is the original version from the Talmud:

    “Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.” Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4:5; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a

    I can imagine the first time Muhammad heard this in some conversation., perhaps with a rabbi who was about to be executed, and thought to himself; this would look good in the Quran and most Arabs are so stupid they won’t know I stole it from the Jews. Or maybe Allah was prone to repeating himself. It happens over and over again in the Quran with it’s mangled retelling of Christian, Jewish, Egyptian and Zooroastiran scriptures and beliefs.

    • PRCS says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 9:00 pm

      Qur’an 5:26 thru 5:32 is the Jewish tale of Cain and Abel–with their roles reversed. Written by Jews to Jews and plagiarized by whomever wrote the Qur’an.

      http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cain.html

  20. noonlinename says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:21 pm

    Only Muslims are considered to be “innocent” under the Koran.

  21. خَليفة says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:23 pm

    http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88498

    This shows how Muslims try to derive truth from stupidity.

    Holding Quran in left hand? Well it is permissible as there is no person or fatwa saying you can’t.

    Everything right and wrong in Islam comes down to what so-and-so said so-and-so heard about what so-and-so said Mohammed did or said. Kind a like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

    • خَليفة says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:31 pm

      The entire Quran would be considered hearsay in a court of law in any non-Muslim country.
      Hearsay from a witness is not admissible in court. Hearsay is statements by someone who did not directly witness an event. The entirety of Mohammed’s life and statements is pure hearsay – there are no colaberating witnesses.

      Islam is a religion based on hearsay.

      • Pong says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 10:22 pm

        But so are the gospels.

        • Demsci says

          Feb 6, 2016 at 12:28 am

          I for one, and many of us, do NOT juxtapose Islam to in effect harmless or beneficial Christianity, but to …. Democratic system, nations, values, tenets. And these have clear rules, tenets and values galore. Moreover, these are updatable, unlike Quran-Hadiths-Sira. So for rational, unbiased people winning against the hearsay of Quran-Hadiths-Sira. imo.

          So to millions or most Western democratic citizens your Tu Quoque-remark is really useful to restate the real relevant comparison to Islam; Democracy, not Christianity. An Atheist.

  22. Hope says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:27 pm

    Why do they need a whole book of this stuff? Couldn’t they just print out a leaflet that says, “Do what we say or we’ll kill you” and just distribute copies?

    • WorkingClassPost says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 6:48 pm

      Maybe we should get the Germans or Swedes, to draw some of those informative little pictures, showing infidels with bibles. pork, no veils etc. and a big red line through them.

      It’d make their lives so much easier if they didn’t need to read all that shite.

  23. Allah Fubar says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:36 pm

    Ah, the old 5:32 trick. To Obama’s credit, he knows that most westerners have no idea what 5:32, 33 say. They fall for it almost every time.

  24. Sam says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:40 pm

    Obama, such a dangerous IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Champ says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 8:12 pm

      Indeed!!

  25. Miriam B says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:41 pm

    Mishnah saying that “Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed the entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved the entire world” (Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5)…This particular verse is also cited in one of the most popular Holocaust films of all time, Schindler’s List. However, the quotation was misleading and left a key aspect which actually changes the whole the issue altogether…“Therefore man was created singly, to teach you that whoever destroys a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had destroyed an entire world; and that whoever preserves a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had preserved an entire world.”

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 7:14 pm

      The idea that Jews are only talking about refraining from murdering other Jews is ludicrous calumny.

      • PRCS says

        Feb 4, 2016 at 9:04 pm

        Qur’an 5:26 thru 5:32 is the Jewish tale of Cain and Abel–with their roles reversed. Written by Jews to Jews and plagiarized by whomever wrote the Qur’an.

        http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/cain.html

  26. mortimer says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:42 pm

    Obama has opened his mouth to prove he is no expert on Islam. Ibn Warraq is after a lifetime of serious research.

    Ibn Warraq wrote: “The supposedly noble sentiments (of Koran 5.32) are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message.”

    Obama would know that if he had done ANY RESEARCH WHATSOEVER. Obama is fed his lines by speech writers who have not read Islam’s source texts and get their info from Islamic apologists who are taqiyya-artists.

    Sad, isn’t it?

    It’s total BS…because Obama and his speech writers have no interest in facts…they are selling their foolish and wrong agenda like snake-oil salesmen.

    • Demsci says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 12:47 am

      To me, Mortimer, the most inconceivable of him saying this is … that he, as president of the strongest nation in the democratic bloc, does NOT say; Well, and this too is sort of our democratic commitment, that is, that no innocent people get killed, and that all have the right to due process. Or something along the lines of where this verse is supposed to align with our own essential democratic doctrine.

      If this is said to praise Islam (however misguided) why not praising democratic nations, systems and theory that endorse such values ALSO! This is what I miss in his speech. It seems to me that Obama does not cherish and praise and promote our own great system enough.

      And I miss him saying that if this verse were true, that that means that Islamic and Democratic ideology overlap. Because what we should communicate to Muslims is that we too have a great ideology and we will defend it to our last breath. With or against them.

      You see, IMO, we should not be only ABI, Anything But Islam, but we should be in favor of our own superior, but highly tolerating, democratic system. The only attitude our system can’t tolerate is intolerant supremacist ideologies.

      • Atheist7 says

        Feb 6, 2016 at 4:49 am

        It is usually very difficult to know what is in a person’s mind. You can get some indication from what a person says. You can get a better indication from what a person does. With respect to Obama, we know that he has Muslim sympathies, but we do not know how deep those sympathies run. He professes to be a Christian, but how much of that is just politically correct showmanship? We do know, from Obama’s interactions here is the United States, that Obama is a racist. He gives the benefit of the doubt to a black person over a white person at every opportunity. He is also a politically correct politician and the following old joke applies: Q. How can you tell if a politician is lying? A. His lips are moving.

  27. Cato says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:47 pm

    As old Roman senator Cato would say: “Ceterum censeo Islamum esse delendam”.

    • underbed cat says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 4:12 pm

      Please translate….something like to censor islam is the only defense??

      • Angemon says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 6:51 pm

        It’s a variation of “Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam”, meaning “To add to that, Carthage must be destroyed” a closing remark attributed to Cato the Elder. As the stories have it, around the time of the second or third Punic wars he ended his speeches with that remark, regardless of the content of the speech.

        • Demsci says

          Feb 6, 2016 at 12:56 am

          I emphatically seek no such solution! Rome begot OTHER ENEMIES in time. We will also beget them should we destroy Islam.

          No, I believe in competition between ideologies. Formulating and promoting our own. Competing with better societies and behavior.

          In this respect I realize that there are all too many committed Muslims and seemingly all too few committed democratic enlightenment ideology-followers and way too many “neutrals”, disinteresteds, multi-cultural kind-hearted but ignorant people among the non-Muslims.

          The very term Non-Muslims describes a wrong essence for me. I like it much more when it is the Muslims who are called the NON-democratic people and such epithets.

        • Atheist7 says

          Feb 6, 2016 at 5:13 am

          I find your statement “No, I believe in competition between ideologies.” a bit confusing. As I see it, when Islam infects a country, eventually, perhaps even several centuries later, Islam replaces the culture of the country with that of Islam. Yes, there is a competition, but we always loose. Islam has too many psychological tricks that eventually converts everyone to Islam.
          The duality of Islam is known to most people – but those who wish to propagate Islam are either unaware of it or choose to pretend that it does not exist. There is also a duality in the definitions of words. Two examples. Tolerance. To the Muslim, tolerance means: Tolerance to Islam – not tolerance by Islam. Peace. To the Muslim, Peace is what we will have when the entire world is under Sharia Law.

        • Demsci says

          Feb 6, 2016 at 4:00 pm

          Atheist7, you are almost only too right. I find the response to Islam as here on JW fine, I just want to suggest an additional between-step.

          Which is inspired by Positive Psychology. It is “When you know what it is what you are against, then formulate what it is that you as a consequence are for, to promote that and let that compete with that which you are against”. The idea is to let us formulate what ideology we ourselves have as “Better Alternative To (Theocratic) Islam” and have demonstrations in favor of that instead of only demonstrations against Islam.

          Through this strategy we can discern the great mass of divers, yet somehow normal neutral Western Citizens AND the Muslims, as we normally do, but also a third group, those of the Better Alternative To Islam, those that promote a Democratic system, lifestyle. And the Muslims and the third group then can compete for attention and followers both from the great normal neutral majority AND the the Muslims.

          Now people like me see anti-Islam-people only discern between the normal, neutral majority and the Muslims, encroaching on the (rights of the) majority. And so they only fight against what they hate; Islam, not for some binding ideology of their own.

  28. sidney penny says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 6:53 pm

    Obama said: “The Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind.”

    Robert,you missed on discussing -“who is an innocent”

    What if a Muslim kills someone and says he/she was not innocent.

    What if a Muslims forms the view that Jews are not innocent.

    What if a Muslims forms the view that Israelis are not innocent.

    What if a Muslims forms the view that infidels are not innocent.

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 7:16 pm

      Yes–no non-Muslim is *ever* considered innocent.

  29. Matthieu Baudin says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 7:05 pm

    Obama and his ilk live in wilful ignorance behind an impermeable barrier that prevents anything but the most superficial impressions of Islamic beliefs to reach them. It is a pop culture version of traditional Islam that he is content with while he laps up the celebrity status of office for as long as it lasts.

  30. sidney penny says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 7:16 pm

    Obama: “Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind”

    If so,

    Why is most terrorism conducted by Muslims and they use Quran as justifcation

  31. Wiser Monkeys says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 7:21 pm

    Obama, of course, is not the only politician guilty of wilfully misusing this part of the Quran.
    Another one of particular interest in the UK is Scotland’s “Minister for Europe and International Development”, Humza Yousaf. He has some interesting skeletons in his cupboard, including Islamist links.

    Read more here:
    http://wisermonkeys.uk/snp.html#yousaf

  32. mortimer says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 7:35 pm

    Obama said: “…Muslim scholars, some of whom join us today, who know Islam has a tradition of respect for other faiths…”

    What a howler! Islamic history is the reverse of tolerance!

    What Muslims call “tolerance,” historians correctly identify as institutionalized, systemic discrimination. The consignment of Jews and Christians to dhimmis under Islamic rule means that they are not allowed the same religious rights and freedoms as Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot share their faith, for example, or build houses of worship without permission. Is that ‘tolerance’?

    Historically, dhimmis had to wear distinguishing clothing or cut their hair in a particular manner that indicated their position of inferiority and humiliation. They did not share the same legal rights as Muslims, and had to pay a poll tax (the jizya). They were to be killed or have their children taken from them if they cannot satisfy the tax collector’s requirements. More tolerance?

    For those who are not “the People of the Book,” such as Hindus and atheists, there is no tolerance to be found once Islam establishes political superiority. The Koran tells Muslims to “fight in the way of Allah” until “religion is only for Allah.” Eighty million Hindus were murdered by invading Muslims as they took over India. Is that ‘tolerance’.

    One of the saddest and even most tragic things here is that a US president can forcefully declare such easily disproved falsehoods and yet the greatest American newspapers and TV journalists haven’t the scholarship to pick Obama’s falsehoods apart and ridicule him for the simplistic manipulator he is.

    The media are letting us down because they have practically no one in them with the requisite knowledge of Islam.

    Islam (submission) is a euphemism for ‘slavery’, because no one is as submitted as a slave.

    What is good about Islam’s SLAVERY?

    • Demsci says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 1:14 am

      Quite right, Mortimer, good of you to give such releant, good, extensive historical context.

      But if Obama must stress the capability of Islam to be tolerant, why not add “As our societies emphasize tolerance as a high value?

      To me it is still so inconceivable that Muslims do not care to choose FOR their new countries, when they move to Democratic countries. On exactly that “Tolerance”. If you want to be tolerated in your new country, you should praise and follow such tolerance

      And that means choose that tolerance it over all Islamic intolerance wherever it happens. But no, the best “moderate” Muslims seem to be able to do is declare themselves neutral and behave inconspicuously. Meanwhile there is a huge discrepancy between how infidels treat Muslims in their countries and how Muslims treat infidels in their (56) countries.

      But Obama dares not draw attention to this glaring discrepancy. He seems to conceive of only one ideology and of the West as some place without defining ideology.

      But IMO there are TWO or more ideologies at work and he should compare the two at length. Democratic citizens may be NON-Muslims, but Muslims may also well be NON-democratic citizens, NON-tolerants (meaning they may well adhere to an authoritarian, intolerant interpretation of Islam which seems to be held by hundreds of millions of them).

  33. 762x51FMJ says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 7:41 pm

    Islam was not a torch, as has been claimed, but an extinguisher. Conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people, it was – and it remains – incapable of adapting itself to civilization. Wherever it has dominated, it has broken the impulse towards progress and checked the evolution of society.

    Andre Servier – L’islam et la psychologie du musulman – London. Chapman Hall LTD. 1924, pp.153, 61, 191, 2, 18, Ch XVI, Preface

    • Demsci says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 4:11 pm

      So right! Written in 1924!

      Let us BE a torch then, and not solely an extinguisher, not even of Islam. By formulating what it is that we cherish, that is contradicted and conspired against by all Islam says and does. Like us being very much for progress and evolution of society which Islam has broken or checked.

      Let there be a third group, next to the normal majority and Muslims, that promotes a clear Better Alternative To Islam!

  34. worldcitizen1919 says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 8:40 pm

    This is the Baha’i view of the Quran as revealed by Baha’u’llah.

    “For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’an hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Bahá’u’lláh Kitab-i-Ian 2 #225)”

    “Heed not the idle contention of those who maintain that the Book and verses thereof can never be a testimony unto the common people, inasmuch as they neither grasp their meaning nor appreciate their value. And yet, the unfailing testimony of God to both the East and the West is none other than the Qur’an.” (Bahá’u’lláh Kitab-i-Iqan

    “PERUSED ye not the Qur’an? Read it, that haply ye may find the Truth, for this Book is verily the Straight Path. “

    • Champ says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 8:53 pm

      More Baha’i *propaganda* from the disingenuous “worldcitizen”.

      Wow, the Baha’i also defend the indefensible: islam & company!

      And a few days ago “worldcitizen” also made this egregious comment on another thread:

      Then why on earth is this site insidiously trying to link Muhammad and the Quran to terrorism??

      The Quran and Muhammad have nothing to do with terrorism it’s Hadiths which are to blame. The Quran does not support offensive warfare in any of its verses.

      Terrorism is just being used as an umbrella to attack and discredit Muhammad and the Quran because the gist of posts here don’t attack terrorism but Muhammad and the Quran which is false and being used as a scapegoat

      This thread: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/huffington-post-christians-should-accept-muhammad-as-a-prophet/comment-page-1#comment-1370910

    • Kepha says

      Feb 4, 2016 at 9:20 pm

      @World Citizen

      Mirza Khan, Ali Muhammad, Shoghi Effendi, and Baha’ullah, like their forbear Muhammad were ignorant of the Holy Scriptures. That was why they could believe that Qut’an confirmed it.

      What I see in the QUr’an is a denial that Jesus was crucified; this means there’s no resurrection of Jesus Christ, no atonement for our sins, not typology through which we can understand passages dealing with the sacrificial ritual of the Mosaic Ceremonial law, Isaiah 53, and Psalm 22. The Qur’an thus does not confirm the earlier Scriptures at all; and it is hence no accident that the Qur’an is not bound together with the Old and New Testaments. Perhaps this is why the instincts of every Muslim polity is to ban the Scriptures if it can.

      And hence the Muslims charge that the Jews and Christians corrupted the Scriptures–but somehow never explain why the chief difference I see between King James’ Old Testament and Isaac Leeser’s Tanakh is the order of the prophetic and hagiographic books; or why I have to strain my eyes to find a jot’s or tittle’s worth of difference between a Greek New Testament published by Protestants and one published by Roman Catholics (usually to be explained because we have a few thousand MSS to sift when putting together a printed Greek NT).

      Where in the Qur’an is there anything like the parable of the Good Samaritan, in which the behavior of a “them” is held up as exemplary? Where is there anything like God’s concern for the heathen Ninevites as expressed in the Biblical Book of Jonah? The Qur’an is all self-righteous griping that God better hurry up and do in the unbelievers. As someone else who believes in a Day of Judgment, I’ll allow that the Qur’an recognizes it. But I’ll also note that it seems to gloat about the destruction of the wicked, and has no note of joy when the wicked turn (as I can find in the Gospels or the Prophet Ezekiel).

      BTW, re your earlier posting about the 12 princes from Ishmael being the 12 imams, it’s clear from Genesis that they were just much closer offspring of Ishmael who founded tribes/nations in the Middle Eastern deserts. I don’t think you can correlate the names of the 12 imams with those of Ishmael’s sons.

      I’ll allow that the Bahai faith seems to appeal to the cultured, mystical, and pacific souls of the sort I was raised to be. it’s a kind of gneteel Unitarian-Universalism plus syncretistic exoticism. But what happens to it if you expose its Islamic pillars and kick them away? I’ll allow that the Bab’s mission becomes meaningless.

  35. Angemon says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 8:42 pm

    • Demsci says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 1:38 am

      Yes! I too think David Wood is great and incomparable. I enjoy his lessons and logic.

      But I have a different reaction to Muslims who quote this verse, omitting the prefix and the subsequent verse.

      First and foremost I grab the sentiment of their truncated quotation; that it is inconceivable and NOT DONE to kill innocent people. I take them up on that and go on to declare that that ALSO is encapsulated in Democratic societies. So should they really believe and mean what they say, as their take-away from Islam, that that only means they are in agreement with fundamental Western Ideology and practice. And let them try to refute that. Then they finally move over to OUR TURF. Now we are 99% of the time on the turf of their ideology.

      Once we have established that the sentiment of that truncated verse is really OURS, then we can ask them to choose our society over that of ISIS and all radical Muslims. If they can follow up their denial of ISIS, with a meaningful choosing of sides.

      Because their neutrality is rendered totally worthless both by ISIS’interpretations and actions (which the neutrals protest) and the accurate analysis by David Wood, Robert Spencer and such eminent Islam-experts. That neutrality is by now totally untrustworthy.

      Only choosing the democratic side against all anti-democratic Muslims should suffice in future to trust any Muslim.

      And here I disagree with David Wood; he still thinks Islam is clear (anti-Democratic). I think that Islam is only clear in some of it’s parts. But it is also sometimes clear in peaceful verses. And that means contradicting internally which also leads to the conclusion of unclear. Moreover there indeed are clearly many incomprehensible or very ambiguous parts of Quran-Hadiths-Sira. As there is variation in degrees of “sahih hadits”. So, yes, on aggregate, Islam IS UNCLEAR, multi-interpretable. And hence also interpretable in favor of our democratic ideology.

  36. Georg says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    Obama: “Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind”

    Mhm. I like the topic. What else does It say?

  37. citycat says

    Feb 4, 2016 at 10:36 pm

    Innocent is only another word for Muslim. ‘s why the cosy Muslims smile in agreement.

  38. Cameron says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 2:09 am

    Non-Muslims do not qualify as “innocent” in the Islamic context. Non-Muslims are guilty until proven guilty (if they even bother to investigate an accusation against a non-Muslim by a Muslim).

  39. Stephen says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 3:52 am

    Can Obama quote this verse from the Coran ???

    Did Mohamed n Allah talk about God’s Love for all mankind in the Coran n hadith ??

  40. TheBuffster says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 7:25 am

    “But across the Islamic world, influential voices should consistently speak out with an affirmative vision of their faith. And it’s happening. These are the voices of Muslim clerics who teach that Islam prohibits terrorism, for the Qur’an says whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind. (Applause.) These are the voices of Muslim scholars, some of whom join us today, who know Islam has a tradition of respect for other faiths; and Muslim teachers who point out that the first word revealed in the Koran — igra — means “read” — to seek knowledge, to question assumptions. (Applause.)” – Obama

    Note that in Robert’s Koran quote the verse goes: “Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land — it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one — it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.” (5:32)

    An “innocent” has a different meaning from “soul”. If the translation of the Koran that Obama read said “innocent”, we have to ask “So who is considered ‘innocent’ according to Islam?” A Muslim? A person who hasn’t been given a chance to convert to Islam before being attacked? A kafir who refuses to convert and who resists subjugation to Islamic rule? These are crucial questions for a critical thinker.

    Now, in Robert’s quote the term is not “innocent” but “soul”. A person might assume that this word just means “person”, but that would be failing to ask what seems to me an obvious question. Could the word *not* mean literal killing of a person’s body, but rather the damning or killing of a person’s soul by leading it astray into wrong belief – leading it away from Islam, speaking against Mohammad and Allah or encouraging belief in other gods beside Allah, such as believing that Jesus is a manifestation of God?

    Also, does “igra” mean “read”? Because I’ve read that the first word in the Koran isn’t actually “Read” but “Recite!” And besides, whichever it means, it’s not telling Muslims to read and study to learn about the world, “…to seek knowledge or question assumptions”. I mean, back then most Arabs were illiterate, anyway. “Recite!” or “Read!” is Allah, through the Angel Gabriel, telling Mohammad to recite what he’s told by the angel. It’s a top-down message from Allah, not to be questioned. It has nothing to do with learning anything but the rote messages channeled from Allah through Gabriel, through Mohammad to Mankind.

    My husband and I (and now my mom, who’s visiting for a couple of months) have been reading the Koran in chronological order and in context, taking our time and discussing as we go. We aren’t even out of the “peaceful” Meccan versus quite yet, and so far nearly the whole thing is nothing but demanding that people believe that Mohammad is Allah’s, the only god’s, messenger, and if they don’t believe the “clear signs” of this – which are nothing of the sort to a rational thinker – then the unbeliever is damned to eternal torture in hell.

    Over and over and over again the thinking, questioning mind is castigated as “arrogant” and damned again and again. And one of the rewards of the believer is that when he goes to paradise he’ll be able to look down and see all the kafirs being boiled and skinned, and the believers will be able to taunt the sufferers from their lofty couches for having failed to believe. Ha-ha-ha! THAT’S entertainment.

    That’s paradise only for the mentality of a narcissistic psychopath who hates those who doubt his unsubstantiated claims, and for the mentality of those irrational or dumb enough to accept those claims without asking the questions the kafirs ask. It raises the uncritical dummies to superior status.

    Wasn’t Obama a student in a Madrassa in Indonesia for a while? Shouldn’t he know this stuff?

    • quotha raven says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 7:40 am

      To The Buffster, who asks, “Wasn’t Obama a student in a Madrassa in Indonesia for a while? Shouldn’t he know this stuff?”

      He was, he should, and he does. Do not underestimate this guy’s capacity for deceit.

      Cheers!

      quotha raven

    • TheBuffster says

      Feb 5, 2016 at 7:41 am

      One more thing. As we’ve been reading the Koran and stopping and discussing, over and over again one of us will come up with a question or objection, and a moment later in our reading Allah will mention the kafir asking the very same question. A perfectly natural question whether now or 1400 years ago. But there is never a straight answer. All poor Mohammad is given to reply are logically fallacious statements – circular reasoning, self-justifying assertions, and threats. What are called “clear proofs” are things like the fact that the mountains stay in one place and that the sky doesn’t fall down. How does that prove that Allah is the only god and Mohammad is his messenger? It’s just dopey from beginning to end, but only dopes go to paradise.

      But what’s interesting here is that *the Koran prepares the Muslim for the kinds of questions he may want to ask or might hear from someone else, and cuts the question off at the pass.* If you’re gullible enough, you’ll be intimidated out of asking that very natural question, terrified by the vision of graphic punishments in an eternal hell.

      And that’s what it’s all about.

      • Oppressaphobe says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 9:08 am

        Islam is mind control.

        But I don’t make the leap to condemn all religions based on islam.

        I think all religions simply need to be judged by their fruits.

        If being Amish makes you a great person and creates a wonderful society, then why would I choose to condemn the Amish? Or the Hindu, or the Buddhists, etc…

        I don’t find that inconsistent because I think it’s possible that religion is natures way of ordering society, but weeds must be pulled up. Their natural enough but they choke out the good plants.

      • Oppressaphobe says

        Feb 5, 2016 at 9:19 am

        Yes, it is brain wash.

        But I don’t dismiss all religions because of this evil one.

        If the Amish are good people and have a well ordered society, why should I disparage them?

        By their fruits you will know them, as Ted Cruz always gets criticized for saying.

        Religion may just be natures way of ordering society, but nature is not always perfect and weeds have to be pulled not to choke out the rest.

        • TheBuffster says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 10:16 am

          I don’t believe I implied that all religions should be dismissed because of this evil one. While most religions have a “believe this or go to hell” aspect, they differ in the content of what you’re supposed to believe and do, how you deal with unbelievers, and whether or not you are welcome to ask questions or even argue with God.

          I oppose those who damn honest questioning, thinking, and dissent, whoever they are and whatever they believe. But the content of those beliefs – most importantly the ethical beliefs – can vary in quality among religions or philosophies, quite aside from the methods used to try to encourage those beliefs.

          Religions are not all the same and do not all deserve the same condemnation. You can condemn irrational, mind-bending aspects of a given religion without condemning all of it. For example, taking your example of the Amish, no unbeliever (or anyone) needs to fear violence from the Amish. Neither are they going to demand that unbelievers specially accommodate them everywhere they go, nor are they going to murder apostates or people who blaspheme God or Jesus. But they will shun their own children if those children don’t conform. I can’t condone that cruelty. But I’d feel safe and happy living next door to an Amish community and not so safe and happy to live next to a Muslim one.

        • Oppressaphobe says

          Feb 5, 2016 at 11:43 am

          I only add my comments about religion because I often run into the sentiment that islam taints all religion–that’s all.

  41. healer says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 11:58 am

    Therefore man was created singly, to teach you that whoever destroys a single soul of Israel, Scripture accounts it as if he had destroyed a full world; and whoever saves one soul of Israel, Scripture accounts it as if he has saved a full world; .

    TALMUD

    SANHEDRIN Chapter 4 Mishnah 5 A thousand years before Islam

  42. Ingo says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    The same lie Khomeini from Iran used this days!But it was a german translation so no link…

    Its also the same lie that muslims use in german tv shows and youtube again and again…

  43. Hans says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 1:49 pm

    Yeah… Right… Islam indeed does proclaim that “whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind”…

    HOWEVER, Islam also proclaims that everybody is born a Muslim and people who don’t follow Islam are therefore heretics… If you’re an heretic you’re not an “innocent”…

    In other words, “whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind” applies only to “innocents” who practice Islam… Non practitioners of Islam are, by definition, not “innocents”…

    How stupid does Obambi think we are?!… He’s either ignorant or he’s being duplicitous…

  44. underbed cat says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 2:19 pm

    Musllims claim many things, another is that they do not believe in suicide, so much so that they will even set up suicide prevention offices, and the will stand in a conference and swear on a stack of bibles that they are not allowed to commit suicide.. But the reality is, that the other word” martyr” covers up the pious member who straps on a vest and can will blow themselves up as long as they take out some non believers, (THAT IS ACCEPTABLE)in this case words have much different meanings to certain groups and if he … pulls a stunt…and his name is revealed, everyone but infidel (unless he has knowledge) knows this pious man or woman followed a command. The next act is to present shock, clueless-ness and a false face by choice. Clever. Very very clever.

  45. Herman says

    Feb 5, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    Typical mozlim behaviour MISquoting sura 5, verse 32:
    -We decreed upon the Children of Israel
    -unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land

    In short: the verse is for the Children of Israel, not for mozlims, and even if the mozlims take it as an order for themselves, then they can still kill for retaliation or ‘corruption’, which equals not being a mozlim

    AND read then the next verse: 5:33
    5:33 says

    The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/05/quran-532-nazam-and-neglecting-context.html

  46. (Dr.) Sandy Kramer says

    Feb 6, 2016 at 12:44 am

    Just another lie from the Father of Lies. The passage only refers to killing done BY Jews. It does not pertain to killing OF Jews. But the devil never sleeps and never grows tired of doing evil.

  47. Joel Scott says

    Feb 6, 2016 at 5:29 am

    Like many western politicians, Obama and his speech writers are such scholars of the Qur’an, Islamic theology and Islamic history that they know how to engage in expert taqiyya.

    • Atheist7 says

      Feb 6, 2016 at 6:34 am

      “they know how to engage in expert taqiyya”. This is certainly true for Obama’s speech writers; however, is it also true for Obama? Is he aware that he is effectively carrying out stealth Jihad? Is there any possibility that he could think of himself as a compassionate, politically correct, multiculturalist?

      • quotha raven says

        Feb 6, 2016 at 2:34 pm

        to Atheist 007 – You’ve made several sharp (as always) observations here in the last day or so – esp your response to the “competition/comparison” of Islam v Democracy, as another commenter has somewhat passionately proposed, and which competition, in my view, is like hammers competing against or being compared with gum drops.

        Thank you for your clear thinking and for expressing your thoughts so well and civilly.

        Above, you’ve asked some trenchant questions, and I’d like to answer each of them:

        “ ‘they know how to engage in expert taqiyya’. This is certainly true for Obama’s speech writers; however, is it also true for Obama?”

        Short answer: Yes.

        Is he aware that he is effectively carrying out stealth Jihad?

        Short answer: Yes.

        Is there any possibility that he could think of himself as a compassionate, politically correct, multiculturalist?

        Short answer: No

        Cheers!

        quotha raven

  48. Linda McElrath says

    Feb 6, 2016 at 9:21 am

    Obama know exactly what he is saying and what he’s doing or NOT doing!!!
    Do not be fooled by his words!!!

  49. NormB says

    Feb 7, 2016 at 2:40 pm

    Merely a legalism, coming from someone who said “I believe in the second amendment” to mean “yes, it exists” but he doesn’t support it and believes he has a right to refuse the right to others.

    “The innocent” is a fungible term of islamic art, for ALL except muslims are considered Dar al Harb, or “House of war” vs. “Dar es Salaam” or “house of peace” meaning in the latter ONLY, those who have submitted (“islam” means “submission”) to the will of Allah.

    All others are “guilty,” and undeserving of peace.

    It’s in the book. It’s been followed to this letter of the law for 1400 years.

    President Obeyme is merely practicing more lawyerly deflection, confusion, conflation, islamapoligism, taquiya (lying) as he allowed to do as a good muslim.

  50. More Ham Ed says

    Feb 20, 2016 at 9:15 pm

    A must watch video from 2015:

  51. More Ham Ed says

    Feb 20, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    A must watch video from 2015:

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