(Continued from Part 1 and Part 2)
“After the San Bernardino attacks, everybody was saying, ‘If only Americans knew more about Islam, they wouldn’t be so afraid.’ Actually, it’s the reverse.” — Bill Maher
‘I have been commanded to fight…’
The condemnations of Christianity in the Koran (cited in Part 2) have real-world implications, as can be seen in the 14 centuries of Islamic jihad and aggression, and in the modern global phenomenon of Muslim persecution of Christians. As Raymond Ibrahim painstakingly documents both in his book Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War Against Christians, and in his monthly series Muslim Persecution of Christians, Islam’s jihad against Christianity spans centuries, geography, race and language, and takes exactly the same form, whether in Nigeria, Sudan or Egypt (Africa), or in Iraq, Syria, Iran or Lebanon (the Middle East), or in Pakistan, Afghanistan and all the other ‘stans (Central Asia), or in Southeast Asia, the Philippines, Indonesia, and so on.
Another reliable source, Open Doors, has just published their annual World Watch List on persecution of Christians for 2015, noting that the persecution of Christians in Muslim-majority countries, while horrific in 2014 and prior years, actually doubled in 2015. Over 80% of the 50 worst nations for persecution of Christians are Islamic nations or have large Muslim populations.
Why is Muslim persecution of Christians so universal, and why has it been going on for 14 centuries?
It certainly can’t be a retaliation for the Crusades, as they post-date the creation of Islam by more than four centuries, and were themselves a response against relentless Islamic aggression.
Rather, the Muslim ummah was a completely new military force, which swept out of the Arabian peninsula in the mid-630s, conquering the Middle East and North Africa by the mid-7th century (and well into Central Asia in the East), followed by the Iberian peninsula (Spain), and even besieging Constantinople (for the first time) in the early 8th century. The below map shows the rapid expanse of Islam during the Arab jihad.
What can account for this sudden onslaught of Islamic warriors, beginning during Muhammad’s life, and increasing dramatically under the caliphs immediately after the traditional date of his death?
Certainly it must be the sense of Islam’s own “manifest destiny,” of overtaking all the world for Allah, at Allah’s specific command, and initiated by Muhammad himself.
Many do not realize that Muhammad began the global jihad by sending letters to the rulers of the kingdoms of his day, inviting them to embrace Islam, but warning them of dire consequences if they did not. This included even Emperor Heraclius of Christian Byzantium, and Chosroes of Persia, the superpowers of the 6th and early 7th centuries.
The justification behind the ever-expanding jihad is found in the Koran. Allah, who calls Christians “blasphemers” and curses them, in the Koran also commands Muslims to fight them until they submit:
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [i.e. Islam] among the people of the Book [Jews and Christians], until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Sura 9:29)
Kill the mushrikun [unbelievers] wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. (Sura 9:5)
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes. (Sura 8:12)
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the enemies of Allah and your enemies. (Sura 8:60)
Muhammad himself taught that he had a divine calling to fight against Christians and other non-Muslims, and since he is the perfect example for Muslims, this inspires Muslims to imitate him and fight against Christians themselves. From key hadiths:
The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat.” (Sahih Muslim 1:33)
“When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [which includes Christians, due to their worship of the Trinity], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them … If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.” (Sahih Muslim 19:4294)
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.” (Sahih Bukhari 2:24)
The apologists for Islam, which tragically includes many Christians, cannot deny either Allah’s commands in the Koran, nor Muhammad’s example, nor how those commands and examples have been understood and zealously followed by Muslims for fourteen centuries. By its scriptures and by its fruits Islam is revealed to be anti-Christian, and Allah is revealed as commanding brutal opposition to followers of the Christian God, unless they convert to Islam or at the very least submit to its domination and pay the jizya.
‘What spirit you are of…’
The contrast between how Muhammad spread Islam and how Jesus sent his apostles out could not be more startling. Indeed, Jesus tells his followers, “I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves…”
We’re all familiar with Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount, where he teaches,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven… Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect” (MT 5:43-48).
The suggestion that God’ perfection is shown through His forgiveness and care even for His enemies is brought out in Luke’s Gospel, where he relates the same teaching as, “Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful” (LK 6:36).
How interesting that Allah claims constantly in the Koran to be “The Beneficent, The Merciful,” yet his commands, his delight in punishing unbelievers, seem far removed from Jesus’ understanding of mercy.
Of course, we may fail (daily, hourly, in my case) in following Jesus’ commandments, yet this proves their divine origin. Put another way, it’s easy to curse and kill. That is baked into our fallen nature, so much so that the Old Covenant sought to channel and limit man’s anger and rage in executing justice; “an eye for an eye” limits retaliation, yet even here Jesus explicitly goes beyond human limits, using the Law as a pivot point from which to teach divine forgiveness and mercy.
Yes, there have been wars fought by Christians, wars between different Christian groups, and wars fought by Christians against believers of other religions, but there is no theocratic command or teaching on warfare in the New Testament. If anything, Jesus’ teaching on this is radically eschatological: “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight…” (JN 18:36).
The extreme dichotomy between Allah and the God of Christians can perhaps best be seen in how Christ and Muhammad each responded to those who rejected their message. After his hijra to Medina, Muhammad expanded Islam by becoming a pirate raider and warlord, targeting caravans, cities and tribes, meting out punishment against his enemies with the sword, raping and looting as a matter of course, and leaving only destruction and misery in his wake. Islam begins its calendar not from the beginning of the revelations to Muhammad, but from his hijra, after which he grew into the warlord prophet and Islam became complete, finding its mission as the power of Allah on earth to force submission to his rule (and of course, the rule of Muslims).
Yet Jesus rebukes even any hint of such a destroying spirit in His disciples, as seen in this passage:
Now when it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven to consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went to another village (Lk 9:51-56, emphasis added).
I would go so far as to say that Muhammad — and therefore Islam — is revealed to be of the spirit of the Destroyer, “in Hebrew Abaddon, in Greek Apollyon,” who is “the angel of the bottomless pit” referenced in the Apocalypse of John (Rev. 9:11). It is this “spirit” which is opposed to the Christian God, and which does all it can to degrade, usurp, assimilate and overthrow traditional Christianity.
Next up: Part 4 – The End of Days…
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Ralph Sidway is an Orthodox Christian researcher and writer, and author of Facing Islam: What the Ancient Church has to say about the Religion of Muhammad. He operates the Facing Islam blog.
mortimer says
Agree with Ralph Sidway’s excellent synopsis: “The condemnations of Christianity in the Koran have real-world implications”
Over 60% of the Koran is the rant that Allah hates those who reject Mohammed and that he wants Muslims to hurt them. The Koran is a troop motivator and Islam is an excuse to hurt disbelievers.
mortimer says
To their credit, most Muslims do not wish to behave as barbarically as Mohammed, thus showing that Islam’s amorality goes against human nature, and further showing that Muslims do not deeply believe in the Death Cult, since very few practice its jihad savagery.
Jon MC says
Which has the sad corollary that Muslims who are good people are bad Muslims and vice-versa.
What we are seeing is Muslims rising above the amorality of their religion, even if they ascribe their “goodness” to it.
Gray says
It doesn’t change anything even if ‘most Muslims do not wish to behave as barbarically as Mohammed.’ Maybe some Muslims, particularly in the West, are not practising jihad merely because they are not powerful enough yet, and are simply biding their time. And beware that dreadful disease, well known to Western Liberals, of ‘radicalization,’ when a wonderful, law abiding Muslim, good neighbour, lots of kaffur friends, suddenly goes berserk and runs around killing filthy infaidels, while screaming ‘Allahu Akbar!’ The children’s fairy story of ‘the moderate Muslim’ is just a myth, without any foundation in reality. Islam is pure evil incarnate, anad a few ‘nice Muslims’ does not change that.
Bob says
On the other hand, there seems to be a famine of objections to the excesses committed by the ‘minority’ which leads me to the belief that this majority silently consents to the excesses. After all, they are obliged to obey the Quran.
Gray says
Agree totally.
Rob Porter says
Mortimer, I feel totally disinclined to give Muslims “credit” for not wishing “to behave as barbarically as Mohammed.” The day that Muslims come out in large number and not only condemn Islam and Mohammad’s savagery, but also condemn the barbarism Muslims all over the world are inflicting on Christians in particular, is the day I will grant them some credit. Until then I wouldn’t trust them further than I could throw them.
The fact is, were they to condemn Islam and Mohammad’s savagery, the logical next step would be to reject Islam and thus become an apostate.
Angemon says
Yes, but facts don’t matter – it’s always the same story: “Christians fought wars too. Islam is a younger religion than Christianity, give it time.”
mortimer says
People who use the ‘tu quoque’ (e.g. Christians as just as bad) do so out of a belief in multi-culti moral relativism. They are philosophically naïve and deeply indoctrinated in the demonstrably false idea that ‘all religions are basically the same’. They are defending their brain-washing by the cultural Marxists. Our educational system has created this moral relativist morass.
Western Canadian says
Also out of an extreme ignorance of the history of the west….. Christian violence? Not much of it due to Christianity, most of it due to power hungry popes and kings…. Some of it due to defending ourselves against the horror of islam. Compared to islamic mass butchery, the west history is like a walk in a heavy rain….
Bob says
Like the Crusades – very little was on a truly Christian belief & basis. Many of the ‘Christian’ crusaders were younger sons of French noble families, who, because of the Salic laws had no inheritance in France. They saw the opportunity to hack out territory of ‘their’ own in the Holy Land.
Lucretius says
“…but there is no theocratic command or teaching on warfare in the New Testament.”
It is quite true, because it is carefully worded. Pay attention to the last four words …”in the New Testament.” When Bernard of Clairvaux urged on the Second Crusade, the Scripture he appealed to were from the prophet Jeremiah, 48:10: “Cursed be he who does not stain his sword with blood!” http://www.bartleby.com/268/7/4.html. And one can say “there is no theocratic command” if by that you mean a command to cause God’s True Religion to rule with political power by warfare. Romans 13 states that governments exist to bring punishment on the wrongdoer, never saying that wrongdoing is defined by failing to acknowledge Christ as God or to support His Church and persecute or oppress unbelievers.
Mark Swan says
Since When Is Jeremiah in The New Testament?
Ok back to the topic…Just look at the faces of those Guys in the photo…can one of them read…they hold a book…so they think…they froth at the mouth…blow snot…looking good…right.
It dose not matter…what is in it is unintelligible nonsense…Monkey See…Monkey Do.
A picture like this is worth a thousand words.
Lucretius says
He isn’t. That’s the point I was making.
Kepha says
To read the Bible, you need to appreciate the flow of sacred history. This does not relativize the message, but highlights how the strands of grace and judgment are interwoven throughout the Old and New Testaments. Certain things about this are clear:
(1) God hates sin and stands in judgment over it.
(2) God also has a plan for the salvation of a part of the fallen, sinful human race.
(3) Sin is such a serious thing that our salvation required the Second Person of the Holy Trinity to become man, obey the divine law as out representative, offer his sinless person in atonement for our sins on the cross, and defeat death (the wages of sin–Rom. 6:23) through his resurrection from the dead. Note that all of this shows our salvation to be of God’s grace rather than our own struggle, goodness, wisdom, righteousness, or holiness.
Yes, the Bible commanded the extermination of Midian, Amalek, and the nations of Canaan–and warned Israel that if they fell into the same evil patterns, they, too, would be cast out of the land. This is a warning that man is capable of evil so great that the divine remedy may be to wipe such a reprobate nation from the very face of the earth. I do not enjoy saying this; I do not think that the Torah itself calls on me to announce this with joy or self-satisfaction. And, if through some work of divine providence, I must one day stand as executor of divine vengeance, may God grant me the grace to do it with proper fear and trembling about such a thing. In the meantime, I pray that God’s grace may turn myself and others that God’s temporal judgments do not fall on us as foretastes of what his eternal judgment will be. This, I believe, is why Jesus taught us to pray, “forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”
In this line, I do not know the context of Bernard of Clairvaux’s quote given in Lucretius’ posting, apart from it being in the preaching of the Second Crusade. But I do know the context of the quote from Jeremiah. It is in a prophecy addressed against Moab; and probably fulfilled in the Babylonian conquest of the area. Further, as I Kings 11:33 notes, Solomon’s diplomatic marriage to a Moabite princess introduced another false cult into the Israelite nation, whose mission was to be the womb through which the Messiah would come.
Now that the Messiah has come, what are our marching orders? We have the Great Commission, by which we are to make disciples of all nations through Word and Sacrament (Matthew 28) and to be Jesus Christ’s witnesses in Judaea, Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth IActs 1). I am just optimistic enough to believe that there is a divine promise in this commission that no nation will be left so reprobate that it will require warfare of the sort decreed against Amalek and Canaan.
Yet there remains a theocratic principle: All authority in Heaven and on Earth, including the keys of death and Hell (Hades in Greek, I know, for the sake of our so-smart trolls) have been given to Jesus Christ. He continues to rule nations through his Word and Spirit (it’s the Holy Spirit, not Frankie Argentino who’s Christ’s vicar on earth); including breaking them with a rod of iron when needed (see Psalm 2).
While I suspect it is true that the state is not called on to punish mere unbelief, I do believe it is called on ultimately to permit and even encourage true religion. When a nation is solicitous for the well-being of the church and humble obedience to Almighty God, this is a very great blessing. When a nation that knows the Word of God well chooses to thumb its nose at God and His Anointed (see Psalm 2), it invites a very great judgment. I am just superstitious enough to believe that one reason why Germany ended up with its cities rubble and divided after World War II was because God had shed much grace on that nation, it’s standard language being virtually made by Luther’s translation of the Bible, yet it also unleashed a flood of criticism which, as Marx and Engels duly noted, was criticism of Christianity, and further went on to officially sponsor mass murder.
So where does my own nation stand? For three transgressions and for four, says Amos…
I see a major party in our land determined to exorcise the Christian God from our national life, to make the murder of the first child a sacrament of liberated womanhood (stinks of making the firstborn pass through the fire), punish those who confess the divine pattern for marriage, and perhaps even deny First Amendment rights to those whose religion is too politically incorrect (as long as it isn’t Islam, apparently). Is it thus any wonder that our proud “enlightened” nation finds itself bested by a barbaric religion that sponsored a culture which, on its own, creates slums surrounded by deserts (or a muddy kampong surrounded by jungle)? Thomas Jefferson stepped out of his Deist profession far enough to say that he feared for his nation when he reflected that God is just. For Uncle Kepha, this is not mere rhetoric.
Christ will continue to stand on God’s holy mountain with or without the United States of America. I pray that the Spirit of God may move us to repentance, and raise up an army of committed people for godly change in our land, but I also know that God is not obligated to say yes to me.
Lucretius says
Dear Kepha
I gave a link to Bernard’s speech in my comment, so you can see the context if you wish. And just to be clear, I favor usefulness of Bernard’s exhortation and the necessity of the Crusades for the defense of liberty. Perhaps my comment left some with the impression I didn’t. Here’s the bulk of what Bernard said:
“If it were announced to you that the enemy had invaded your cities, your castles, your lands; had ravished your wives and your daughters, and profaned your temples—which among you would not fly to arms? Well, then, all these calamities, and calamities still greater, have fallen upon your brethren, upon the family of Jesus Christ, which is yours. Why do you hesitate to repair so many evils—to revenge so many outrages? Will you allow the infidels to contemplate in peace the ravages they have committed on Christian people? Remember that their triumph will be a subject for grief to all ages and an eternal opprobrium upon the generation that has endured it. Yes, the living God has charged me to announce to you that He will punish them who shall not have defended Him against His enemies.
“Fly then to arms; let a holy rage animate you in the fight, and let the Christian world resound with these words of the prophet, “Cursed be he who does not stain his sword with blood!” If the Lord calls you to the defense of His heritage think not that His hand has lost its power. Could He not send twelve legions of angels or breathe one word and all His enemies would crumble away into dust? But God has considered the sons of men, to open for them the road to His mercy. His goodness has caused to dawn for you a day of safety by calling on you to avenge His glory and His name.
“Christian warriors, He who gave His life for you, to-day demands yours in return. These are combats worthy of you, combats in which it is glorious to conquer and advantageous to die. Illustrious knights, generous defenders of the Cross, remember the example of your fathers who conquered Jerusalem, and whose names are inscribed in Heaven; abandon then the things that perish, to gather unfading palms, and conquer a Kingdom which has no end.”
And I agree with you on the importance of Christianity in American life, especially the more orthodox sort, to influence our mores: our sense of togetherness and loyalty to the family of Christ and of our country, to support chastity, marriage & family, modesty, honesty, forgiveness of faults, slights and imperfections, etc.– and to dissuade from rage-filled utopianism, whether the French Revolutionary, Communist, Islamic, or the SJW type, from rootless and tradition-hating cosmopolitanism, progressivism and outright treason.
I invite you to watch this video by Harvard Political Science professor Harvey Mansfield on Tocqueville’s Alliance of Religion and Liberty given at Catholic University. It may help clarify why and how this religion is so important to maintaining American liberty. His speech begins at 4:39.
Lucretius says
Sorry about that. Hope this link works.
eduardo odraude says
Uncle Kepha,
Some Christians claim that they know they are saved. You do not sound like that kind of Christian. Is that claim to knowledge of one’s salvation restricted to certain strands of Christianity?
I’ve never gotten terribly clear in my mind how two things go together: 1) Christ died for us on the cross, to pay for our sins. 2) Nevertheless, we might end up in gehenna (hell?).
If Christ paid for our sins, why does anyone have to go to “hell”? (Is there controversy within Christian theology about what hell is, and whether it is eternal, and so on?)
If you say “even the worst sinner can be certain of being saved, provided he calls on the name of Jesus Christ and “repents” — I ask, how does one know if he has adequately “repented”?
Thanks for any insights you might care to share.
Kepha says
@Lucretius and Eduardo:
Thank you for your replies.
Lucretius: I admit I was a bit lazy to follow the link you provided. I’m recovering from back surgery, and I needed to get out of the chair when I was reading your comment. When I first read Tocqueville on liberty and religion in America as a young man, it made a very deep impression on me, and was perhaps one of the catalysts that led me to think that perhaps I had better acquaint myself with the biblical source of our religion. I’ll also add that my pacifism is of the “small p” variety–peace is better than war, and God commands me to pursue peace rather than war as much as it is up to me (but, sometimes the government needs to wage it for the protection of the good and the discouragement of evil; and believers may also heed their country’s call to arms; just war theory and all that). While I may question Brother Bernard’s exegesis, I believe we two may be on the same page in many things.
Eduardo: Your worries about the adequacy of our repentance reveals the heart of the issue. As for assurance of salvation, John the Apostle himself wrote: These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God (I John 5:13–another “not the same God” verse). We are to look to and believe in Christ, not anything of our own (including repentance and faith, which if we look deeply enough, are God’s gifts to us).
Note that our faith is not in our church, our own goodness, or even our own repentance and faith. As sinners, we pollute all of these. The object of our faith is the Son of God–Jesus Christ. It’s why there are lots of places in the Old and New Testaments where we are called to look on someone other than ourselves. Some give the impression that under the Old Testament, people were saved by obeying the law. But this is false. The Old Testament saints hoped in the Messiah, going all the way back to when God told Eve right after our first transgression that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent; and including the whole sacrificial system found in the Torah–without the shedding of blood (and sinful man’s won’t cut it), there is no remission of sins.
As for Christ’s dying for us yet some of us ending up in Hell–John 10 has Jesus identifying himself as the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep (again, many Old Testament echoes and Messianic claims there); and also warns those who don’t hear him that there are some there who are not of his sheep. We have it from Jesus’ own lips that the repentant thief crucified beside him would enter Paradise that day (Luke 23); we know as well that the heartless rich man of the parable died and went to Hell.
This, of course, touches on the high mysteries of God’s eternal decrees (yes, I’m what people call a “Calvinist”; although I rather see it that Calvin and his disciples heeded the prophets, apostles, and Christ himself very closely). Yes, there are God -ordained ends (the salvation of the elect), and also means whereby that salvation moves from eternity to the time-bound, conditioned world in which we live (the means of grace). But I would also allow that if you are really concerned about where you stand with God, and bothered by the possibility you may not be of the elect, consider that for all you and I know, this might just be the Holy Spirit of God prodding you to work repentance and faith in you. If so, consider that the God who predestines whatsoever comes to pass, is also the God who became man in Jesus Christ and worked salvation for us, even to the point of rising from the dead.
What are any of my good works compared to Jesus’ perfect obedience?
What is my repentance compared to Jesus’ agony in Gethsemane in praying for those who would believe?
What is my baptism in water compared to his baptism in blood?
What is my poor experience of the Holy Spirit compared to his having the Spirit poured out on him without measure?
What are my little victories compared to his rising from the dead?
What is the goodness of my church compared to his being unashamed to call brethren a host of sinners needing salvation?
Soli Deo Gloriam.
somehistory says
eduardo odraude
You asked great questions and Kepha gave you a fine answer.
I would like to add: Jesus died for *all*…but many do not want what He offers. He gave the illustration of those invited to a marriage feast, but many refused to accept the invitation.
If one does not want what Christ offers, that one does not get life eternal, or life everlasting because that is what He offers.
And: we must trust our Father and His Son for “salvation,” and we can feel assured that with their assistance, we can “endure to the end” and “be saved (Matthew 24″13).”
Jesus helps us to carry our load so we can prove faithful. If we prove faithful, we will be given eternal life. Our Heavenly Father and His Son want us to succeed. They paid a heavy price for us to have life and have it abundantly. If we prove faithful, we make our Father’s “heart rejoice (Proverbs 27:11).”
eduardo odraude says
Kepha, thank you for that kind and thoughtful answer.
It sounds like you believe that some souls are predestined by God from the beginning of time to end up in hell. Eternally?
It is very hard to see that as just. Something must be wrong with the premises that led to your conclusion.
I still don’t understand how to reconcile the view that Jesus saves us despite our sinful nature, yet some people end up in hell. Perhaps I misunderstood something you said.
If all are not saved despite Jesus’ death for our sins, and some go to eternal hell anyway, only a few conclusions seem possible:
1) God decided for some reason that had nothing to do with a souls’ merit or demerit to send some souls to eternal torture and horror in hell. (That I guess is your view? Or am I misreading you?) Or,
2), God saves absolutely everyone who can be saved, but God, though superlative in a number of ways, is not totally omnipotent, and so some human souls fall to a level where they end up in hell, not because God put them there, and not because they merit that horror, but because the universe has a tragic side, and some have the misfortune to have bad genes, bad environment, bad teachers, bad influences, etc. They fall into self-destructive and other-destructive ways, and some souls eventually become something that finds heaven’s love repugnant. Those souls then become stuck in hell because heaven’s love is horrifying and repugnant to them. They are, in other words, insane and morally broken with no internal resources to pull them out of it. Following this line of reflection, those who end up saved are not saved through their own merit, but rather through the good luck that around them growing up there were not too many obstacles to God’s grace, which thus was able to give them good genes, good environment, loving parents, teachers, etc., and compassionate instincts, so that they were able to develop healthy, sane, reasonably virtuous habits and direction and could avoid the kind of selfishness and immorality that leads to hiding and shame and that makes one fear to open oneself up to the revealing light of God’s grace. Life in the darkness can then lead toward increasingly self-destructive paths. Repugnance and fear toward the light of heaven can grow as the soul decays or falls into a kind of inner and outer abyss.
Perhaps you can tell that I am troubled by the notion — and perhaps the reality — that some souls are eternally lost, or worse, eternally tortured, and others not.
Perhaps these questions will always be mysteries, and the only practical takeaway from all this is your point, that my questions suggest I am being prodded by the Holy Spirit toward repentance.
What do you think of C.S. Lewis’ idea of hell? That God does not compel anybody to stay there — but some simply can’t stand heaven. Some misunderstand it, don’t realize it is heaven. They fail to see because of their stupidity, selfishness, madness, etc. And that God put boundaries around hell not to keep anyone in, but to keep hell from spreading…
Anyway, Interested in your comments if you have any further. Thanks again for your earlier reply.
eduardo odraude says
some history,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I see two elements in what you said.
1. The only thing you have to do to get into heaven is accept it, accept the gift of heaven from Christ. This idea partly corresponds to what I said in my 5:48 pm reply to Kepha.
2. Another thing you say one needs to get into heaven is that we must “prove faithful.” Isn’t that some kind of merit in a person? That he is able to “prove faithful”? What about those who are unable to “prove faithful”? Is that their fault? If they failed to prove faithful, why does God’s compassion no longer apply to them? Or does God’s compassion still apply to them, but God cannot save them because their “lack of faith” is really just a way they have of saying they do not want what God is offering? In other words, God never rejects anyone, even those who do not “prove faithful.” But he cannot force anyone to come to heaven, and in your terminology, if someone does not “prove faithful,” that is another way of saying he does not want what God is offering, that he chooses to stay out of heaven, though God will accept anyone who accepts heaven.
I realize that maybe no one has clear answers to these kinds of conundrums, but what about some extreme cases, like lunatic serial killers. How does God handle them after death? If they are insane and can’t help what they do, does God cure them and invite them to heaven? I guess the thought I’m getting at is that evil is often a kind of insanity or sickness. Is evil ever fully a choice, or does it always involve some blind spot or spots? “God forgive them, for they know not what they do.” So how can someone be eternally tortured in hell for being mentally ill, stupid, or blind?
Larry A. Singleton says
Here are some notes from my Bible study. Go down the page and see the heading “God’s War-Genocide”. Good definition for “genocide” that I found in my NLT Study Bible.
God’s War-Genocide in the Bible 12-26-15
I almost wish that the Muslims were descended from the Caananites and Jebusites. It’s clear, like the Muslims of today, the Caananites and Jebusites were rotten through and through. And like all Muslim countries, once they were established they had no redeeming qualities to…….
Joshua has several chapters filled with the following:
Then Joshua killed each of the five kings and impaled them on five sharpened poles, where they hung until evening.
That same day Joshua captured and destroyed the town of Makkedah. He killed everyone in it, including the king, leaving no survivors. He destroyed them all, and he killed the king of Makkedah as he had killed the king of Jericho. Then Joshua and the Israelites went to Libnah and attacked it. There, too, the Lord gave them the town and its king. He killed everyone in it, leaving no survivors. Then Joshua killed the king of Libnah as he had killed the king of Jericho.
From Libnah, Joshua and the Israelites went to Lachish and attacked it. Here again, the Lord gave them Lachish. Joshua took it on the second day and killed everyone in it, just as he had done at Libnah. 33 During the attack on Lachish, King Horam of Gezer arrived with his army to help defend the town. But Joshua’s men killed him and his army, leaving no survivors.
Proceding Joshua is Deuteronomy 7:1-8King James Version (KJV)
7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
God’s War-Genocide
The Lord’s command to Israel to annihilate its enemies poses a major ethical problem. How could the God of love mandate genocide? What justification could Israel have had for invading, conquering, and destroying the land of Canaan and its peoples? From a human perspective, it appears that Israel’s aggressive campaigns to settle Canaan were illegal and immoral.
However, the war against the Canaanites was led by God, not by mere human whim (see Deut 7:2). The conquest was directed against wicked people who had rebelled against the Lord and his purposes. Their sin had reached its full measure and now warranted their destruction (cp. Gen 15:16). Israel became God’s instrument to carry out his judgment.
The war that Israel was authorized to wage was limited historically and theologically to its OT setting. Medieval campaigns, such as the Crusades by European “Christians” against Middle Eastern “infidels,” or the more recent jihads of Islamic terrorism cannot be justified based on OT practice. Jesus made it very clear that “God blesses those who work for peace” (Matt 5:9) and that “those who use the sword will die by the sword” (Matt 26:52). No justification for such action exists in the modern world. In the final judgment, God himself will pour out his holy wrath on human wickedness (see Rev 19:11-21; 20:7-10).
I definitely disagree with this last part regarding the Crusades. See A Concise History of the Crusades by Thomas F. Madden. But in the end may be a correct statement when it comes to “peace”.
Western Canadian says
“”in the New Testament”
This is not a ‘careful’ choice of words, it is a simple statement of fact. As for your reaching and twisting…. It was not Jeremiah who urged bloodshed thousands of years later. Your effort at being clever, has failed rather badly…. There is nothing in the old OR new Testaments that matches the bloody and unholy korans open ended commands to steal, rape, and butcher, so what is your point? If you have one.
ICH says
imagine for one second you are married to one of these apes
I feel so bad for women !
worldcitizen1919 says
The whole issue rests on whether Muhammad was from God or not.
What if He was?? What if the Quran was from God. The same God of the Christians?
Would everyone here denounce God knowing He sent Muhammad?
Also, what if Christ returned and said Muhammad was from God and so was the Quran?? Would you all here reject Him too??
The thing here is. What if God DID send Muhammad??
I would say thrn we have to look to other reasons for a lot of the problems.
Such as CLERICS which Robert agrees with.
What about Hadiths?? Aren’t they a major contributing factor many Hadiths changing the meanings of verses in the Quran??
What about corrupt rulers the Umayyads and Abbasids?? Didn’t they just use religion as a pathway to power and wealth?
The problem is much more complex than than just blaming what might be a Prophet of God and a Holy Book.
We know Muhammad is not alive now so it’s not Muhammad going around bombing people. The Quran is a book and like a gun or is an object and needs an evil mind in order to misuse it.
We don’t say all guns are evil just because of a massacre or at least the gun lobby don’t. We may be wrong and it may be a whole host of reasons not just ‘THEM’.
Mark Swan says
What if Pigs could fly.
Jon MC says
“The Quran is a book and like a gun or is an object and needs an evil mind in order to misuse it.”
No, the Koran ISN’T like a gun, it isn’t simply an object that can be used for good or ill.
Although the analogy still sucks: the Koran is more like the instruction manual FOR the gun, except that this gun manual says “once you have loaded the gun start killing people.” And the manual’s small-print adds “if you don’t go kill people other people who own this gun will come and kill you.”
You may CHOOSE not to obey the gun manual, but that just means you are not a “true-believer” gunner.
Note to gun owners: I did say the analogy sucks.
worldcitizen1919 says
But it all comes down to the person using it. An evil person will use it for evil but take us Baha’is we believe in it and read it and we use it for good.
deja vu says
Goodness worldcitizen, haven’t you been paying attention? You just keep making the same points and asking the same questions over and over again, most of which have already been dealt with by me and many others.
Look, if after all the explanations you remain a committed Baha’i, so be it – it’s your choice, and those of us who have tried to answer your questions and given you the Gospel will not be held accountable for how God will judge you. Be thankful that it was the idea of the God of the Bible that mankind should have free will – not Allah’s. Just spare us the ‘reed blown by every wind’, ‘bob each way’ type of theology. I can tell you now it won’t wash with God or Allah.
On a personal note, the Baha’i friend I mentioned was taken in by all the lovely-dovey, peace and tolerance stuff to the extent that she married one of the guys, who went on to relieve her of her savings and disappear. Let us not deceive ourselves that the Baha’i faith does a thing to change a person inwardly. It’s popular mainly because it doesn’t demand anything of its idealistic adherents and flatters them into believing that they are a force for unity and peace, when they are making no difference whatsoever – and can never make a difference while mankind remains in its fallen state. The Baha’i faith is a sop for those who haven’t the courage to come down on one side or the other. There is no middle ground when it comes to choosing between Yahweh and Allah – sorry.
worldcitizen1919 says
That’s fine. I’m happy with your reply I think it was respectful and mature.
Yes I am committed and yes I’ll gladly accept the consequences of my beliefs and yes Baha’is are imperfect and not all good. We are far from perfect and you are right to condemn any wrongdoing by any Baha’i as that is against our teachings. But there are imperfect religionists in all religions not just Baha’i.
I’m not sure by what you mean when you say you think we have no great interest in personal transformation.
My personal situation is I’m married to a Baha’i from Burma and have been married for 40’yesrs. Our marriage is the only one in our family that has withstood th test of time. All other marriages broke or divorced etc.
Before I became a Baha’i I was a heavy drinker and gambled. However now, since being a Baha’i I haven’t had a drink of alcohol for 40 years and never gambled anymore. I was an aetheist 40 years ago and now I believe in God and Jesus Christ as Lord and have so many Bibles and love reading them. My wife and I love Christian people and always praise them because they are doers of good. Muslims often won’t speak to us but that’s because they are taught prejudice.
God is most wise but man understands little. At one stage we had no technology so God gave science to mankind to spread the Gospels far and wide.
The same with Baha’u’llah .God sent Him to unite humanity and people will object and say He’s a false prophet etc but in time they will thank God for sending Him.
deja vu says
worldcitizen: ‘I’m not sure by what you mean when you say you think we have no great interest in personal transformation.’
I did not say that. I said, ‘Let us not deceive ourselves that the Baha’i faith does a thing to change a person inwardly…’ and went on to say, ‘…and can never make a difference while mankind remains in its fallen state.’
I’m glad you put aside your youthful excesses, but (and it’s a big BUT) you overcame damaging physical habits in your *own* strength. Without diminishing what you achieved, I suggest that most of us can do that if we’re determined enough. What we cannot do is change our inward selves, our spirits, and we fail miserably if we try. I can give up smoking, for example, but how do I give up (or even control) my worst thoughts? Jesus made the 10 Commandments even harder to obey by stating that hating someone is akin to ‘murdering’ him, lusting after a woman is akin to committing adultery, and so on. The Ten Commandments are too hard to keep; the teachings of Jesus are impossible to live up to. We all fall short every day. The real purpose of these laws is to make us aware of our sin, and to show us how far we fall short of the holiness of God. We *need* a Saviour, a Saviour who is not God is not qualified. We are like drowning men who fight off the life guard. If we think we are ‘good’ people we are pridefully spitting in the face of Jesus – in effect claiming that we have no need of a Saviour because we can save ourselves. We’re fine and dandy as we are, thanks, and we’ll subscribe to a feel-good faith that is pleasing to our ears and our egos, and doesn’t demand anything of us.
What is at stake here is not changing our bad habits but a *complete regeneration* of our spirit – ergo, violent gang member turns pussycat. His desire to be an antisocial bully has evaporated. Hardened jailbird, complete repentance, acceptance of the Holy Spirit of God and is now a pastor. These transformations are nothing short of a miracle. And God is a God of miracles. All it takes is the recognition that how ever ‘good’ we appear on the surface, without deep and genuine repentance for our sin, and surrender to the will of God, we *cannot* be part of the family of Christ and therefore are not granted salvation. You can own a number of Bibles, you can admire Jesus, love Christians – BUT you are still on the outside looking in because you don’t have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in you. You are so near, and yet so far – if only you realised it.
You say, ‘I was an aetheist 40 years ago and now I believe in God and Jesus Christ as Lord’. You say you believe in Him, but it seems you believe in Him among a whole lot of other gods and prophets who you think deserve your respect. Do you understand what the word ‘LORD’ means? If you call Him that you are acknowledging His transcendence over *all* others. Head acknowledgment is not enough, worldcitizen. If you believe in Him you MUST follow Him, and Him alone. Only HE has reached down to you, only He is Lord and Saviour – not Allah, not any other deity or lesser god, seer, or prophet.
Far from thanking God for sending Baha’u’llah, one day you’ll be flat on your face before Him pleading for forgiveness that you did not esteem Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who suffered and died for your salvation and justification, sufficient. You preferred to have your ears tickled by a ‘prophet’ whose ‘wisdom’ fed your vanity (I’m being honest here – I was seduced by the New Age movement long ago). I plead with you one last time, if you love Jesus, take very seriously His uncompromising teachings and surrender yourself to Him. Ask God to help you see the Light of the world, ask Him to save you and be the Lord of your life. Sadly, if you can’t bring yourself to do that, your love is purely sentimental and of no account.
worldcitizen1919 says
Thank you for you’re very sincere and kind letter.
I understand what you are saying.
What I maintain however, is that Jesus Christ, His Second Coming already took place and I humbled myself before Him and was taken to heaven with Him and dwell in Him and He dwells in me.
I have proved worthy of the trust He placed in me when He said ‘watch and pray’ and when the Hour Struck and He came down with angels I turned towards Him.
I can only say to you brother what Baha’u’llah, Christ returned with His New Name is saying to Christians….
Say, O followers of the Son! Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness. (Baha’u’llah )
deja vu says
worldcitizen:
The ‘voice’ of the last paragraph does not sound the same as the voice of God in the Bible. Neither does His apparent ‘second coming’ fit the description of that marvellous future event in Scripture.
Did any of these prophecies take place when Baha’u’llah came into the world?
‘Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and *every eye will see him*, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)
‘…so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:10-11)
Was this worship meant for Baha’u’llah? How come nobody knew about it despite God promising that *every* knee would bow and *every* tongue confess’ that Jesus Christ is Lord.
“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4:16-17)
Has this event already happened without anyone noticing?
‘But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.’ (1 Thess 4:13-18)
Did any of this take place during Baha’u’llah’s lifetime? Nobody in the West had even heard of him or the Baha’i faith until the World Congress of Religions in Chicago in 1893, a year after Baha’u’llah died. No? Then we’re still waiting for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as the Lion of Judah. Only He can fulfill these prophecies, and He will. The time of the prophets ended when He was born.
worldcitizen1919 says
Yes. All these signs were fulfilled with the Coming of Baha’u’llah in His Own Lifetime.
I didn’t miss it.
He said to ‘watch and pray’
He said also He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith the churches.
If these conditions are fulfilled one can see His return very clearly. They are the conditions Christ gave.
deja vu says
worldcitizen:
‘All these signs were fulfilled with the Coming of Baha’u’llah in His Own Lifetime.I didn’t miss it.’
I’m stunned – you didn’t miss the second coming of Jesus, albeit with a changed name?! Do you realise what you’re saying? This will be an unprecednted and momentous event which *every* eye shall see and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD! .Where is the Kingdom Jesus, the Son of God, is yet to establish? He didn’t say human beings are going to change hearts and minds. They do not have either the power or the authority to do so.
The danger of quoting Jesus out of context is making it a pretext. He warned His followers to ‘watch and pray’ that they would not be distracted and deceived by the strategies of Satan. (1 Peter 5:8)
The phrase ‘watch and pray’ was also used by Jesus to warn His followers not to let themselves fall into temptation (by the devil) – “watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
Revelation 3 has nothing whatsoever to do with the appearance of another prophet, but a warning to the churches to be steadfast in their faith ‘once and for all’ given to mankind. We are currently living in the last period, that of Laodicea.
Jude 3 – Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to earnestly contend for the faith that was *once for all* entrusted to God’s holy people. (my emphasis)
Your claim that an unknown Iranian Muslim appeared in ‘great glory’ and fulfilled all that God has promised to do for us by bringing in His Kingdom on earth, is beyond comprehension. I can only pray for the blinders to be taken from your eyes.
worldcitizen1919 says
I saw Him Coming in the clouds with angels and He lifted me up to heaven.
I’m sorry you missed it but Christ gave specific instructions to be followed otherwise He would come like a thief in the night.
I have seen and bowed before Him.
I have not failed to obey my Lord
Western Canadian says
Using evil to do good? you really are an ignorant fool.
Mary says
“What if He was?? What if the Quran was from God. The same God of the Christians?
Would everyone here denounce God knowing He sent Muhammad?
Also, what if Christ returned and said Muhammad was from God and so was the Quran?? Would you all here reject Him too??”
Mohammed, Islam and the Quran are certainly part of God’s plan (the Quran could be “the little scroll” in Revelation 10 and Islam could be one of the beasts in Daniel, and the Kaaba could even be the Harlot in Revelation 17-18 – but this is speculation at this point in time, we just don’t know yet).
But we are warned of false prophets and false teachers, and instructed to “test the spirits”. And unless a spirit (teacher/prophet) acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God and divine, we are to reject him (1 John 4:1-5)
See also:
2 Corinthians 11:14-16
“14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”
Galatians 1:8
“8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!”
Kepha says
Excellent points. For me, the Qur’an being the “little scroll” of Revelation 10 is open to doubt (I tend to see the little scroll as Biblilcal teaching–which shows us both the sweetness of grace and the bitterness of sin and divine judgment, and is to be taken “into” the believer), but to the rest I say a hearty “Amen”. My sense is that a lot of people are drawn to Bahai’ism’s stress on brotherhood and internationalism–but since you quote Paul, I can’t help but notice that he was the guy who first wrote it out that in Jesus Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. No better plea for international brotherhood before or since.
Again, thanks for your post.
Kepha says
@World Citizen: I do not believe that God commissioned Muhammad as a prophet, and while I, as a sinner, do have my arguments with God (who always seems to win), I may just admit that God may have sent Muhammad–just as he sent the Assyrian as the rod of his anger (Isaiah 10) or Nebuchadnezzar or the bestial empires of the prophet Daniel’s vision.
Why do I not believe in Muhammad as a prophet in the biblical tradition?
Qur’an 5:114ff. “Then Allah will say: ‘Jesus son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: “Worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?”‘
‘Glory to You.’ he will answer, ‘how could I say that to which I have no right…”
Muhammad misrepresents the Christian Trinity as three deities being God, Jesus, and Mary, when we worship One God in the three persons of the Father, Word (Son), and Holy Spirit. Muhammad was the confused one, not us.
Muhammad in Surah 19:28 refers to Mary as “Sister of Aaron”. I am aware the Islamic apologists say this is only a euphemism for “virtuous woman”. If this was all the Qur’an had to say on the subject, I would concede the linguistic argument. But Sura 3 (al-Imran.Family of Amram), verses 35 and following, make it clear that Muhammad thought that Mrs. Amram was the mother of Mary mother of Jesus, and they were close enough in time to Zacharias the father of John the Baptist to put Mary in his care–absolute ignorance of the 1400 years separating Miriam sister of Moses and Aaron from Mary (form of Miriam) the mother of Jesus Christ; plus not a hint of Jesus’ Davidic ancestry (essential to fulfilling the Messianic hopes of the Old Testament). I am certain that the effort to explain “Sister of Aaron” as “virtuous woman” does not come from Muhammad himself, but from later Muslim theologians and exegetes who, with greater exposure to the Jewish and Christian teachers of the Fertile Crescent (the leaders of the primitive ‘Ummah’s tax base, after all) realized that the confused individual they saw as God’s last prophet really got it wrong.
And what of Muhammad lusting after Zaynab, the wife of his adopted son Zaid, and getting a “revelation” made to order to serve that lust?
I’m glad for you that Bahai’ism allowed you to turn your life around, and got you to recognize that there’s a God far bigger than all of us put together. I’ll also allow that Bahai’ism is a far better religion than the one from which it grew (Ithna’ashariyyah Shi’ite Islam). But, do you know how many similar testimonies I’ve heard about the power of Christ to change lives in Christian circles? But you do not love Jesus Christ. He is the one who said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58–clear echo of Exodus 3:14); not one who said he was just another human prophet.
I’m also someone who loves peace and cooperation better than war and conflict. I’m also a person whose travels and studies gave him some unique cross-cultural experiences and reading knowledge of a few languages. I’m in a long-lasting marriage to a lady who was raised on Mahayana Buddhism, Daoism, and Chinese folk religion before being called to Christ. We both seem to be men who’ve lived a little. But the one I call God’s last revelation to man is also the Prince of Peace, and his apostles tell me to pursue peace rather than war as much as it is up to me (Romans 12:18 and Hebrews 12:14) But we’ve got to be realistic. The Qur’an and the Bible cannot both be true about the person of Jesus Christ. I’m also one who would’ve once said that both were wrong; but no longer.
After we’ve had the way, truth, and life himself walking among us, and standing right under the nose of the tragically cynical Pontius Pilate (Mr. “What is truth?”), and then, three days after his crucifixion, conquering death itself, how can we accept as prophet a guy who offers just another code (much of which is taken up with how to fight, loot, and kill unbelievers), and stayed dead in the bargain?
Bahai’ism gets a hearing in the USAt because a lot of people raised as Christians never thought through the implications of what the Gospel teaches; got bamboozled and confused by dubious critical theories emanating from 19th century Germany, tired of the Great Commission to evangelize, and through out the baby with the bathwater when they noticed some of the real failings of the Christians with whom they lived as close kin and neighbors (and found the grass of the timid Baha’ullah greener, knowing nothing of the Kitman and Taqqiyah with which that gentlemen dealt with Ottoman authorities). Sure, Bahai’ism in the USA represents one of the unpaid bills of the American church. But that doesn’t change the fact that there is a glaring contradiction in its professed embrace of both the Jesus of the New Testament and the Muhammad of the Qur’an.
Maybe you came here so you might be challenged to rethink the place of Muhammad and the imams in history, get fresh perspectives on the Old and New Testaments, whose words are more enduring than stone (thank you, Cseslaw Mylosz) and recognize that they’re just thieves and robbers compared to Jesus Christ. God has much better things for you and your house.
worldcitizen1919 says
I respect your views and thanks for your comments.
You mentioned that the Quran and Bible cannot be both true about Jesus Christ.
That a hypothesis based on current methodology and rational thinking but if one read the Book of Certitude it all falls into place how it all makes so perfect sense.
You can download a copy online. The thing is we have a lot of concepts and ideas which we think are true because they appear that way to us like before they used to be so sure the world was flat. Now everybody would laugh at their ignorance.
It’s the same with religious truth.
What we know today is not all we can know and we shouldn’t just say that’s all there is to know and cling to that but broaden our knowledge.
If Baha’u’llah said its possible to show how all these books are equal and don’t lower Jesus then if I were a Christian I would be curious to know how He explains this apparent dichotomy, paradox and contradiction. I would be fascinated to know how does Baha’u’llah reconcile these differences?
In His Book of Certitude it’s awesome how He does it and even explains the Bible prophecies how they’ve been misunderstood.
Kepha says
@WorldCitizen:
I went to look at the Book of Certitude (Kitab-e-Iqan). I’ll allow that Baha’ullah had a powerful sense of the transcendence of God coupled with a clear desire for God’s immanence, a probably sincere desire to see brotherhood among people of all religions (which is the way his Islamic upbringing divided mankind), and a sense that revelation progresses. He is also a person concerned about ethical issues, of sincerity, love, and kindness, and bothered by the uncharitable character of many religious leaders. He also seems quite irked at the obtuseness and obscurantism of the ‘ulema; so I will recognize in Baha’ullah (and, I guess, Seiyyid-Al Muhammad Mirza as well) someone who came to recognize the clear limitations of Islam as a faith.
But what I also get from my first, admittedly cursory, reading are the following:
I see as well that Baha’ullah works from the Islamic presuppositions that divine transcendence prevents
God from coming near to man, and that the messengers are merely human.
He misconstrues Jesus’ relationship to Torah (Sabbath and divorce).
I sense as well from some of your earlier postings that Bahais see a difference between the man Jesus and the indwelling Christ.
He misses the significance of Jesus’ resurrection.
I will start by agreeing with Muhammad that if God is to be known, he must be known on his own terms rather than ours, and that God is simply too great to be found at the end of our puny thoughts. The belief that the prophets are all merely human misses how the transcendence of God and man’s need for an imminent God are reconciled through the Incarnation—that is, God became man in Jesus Christ.
The incarnation of the Word of God both brings God down to man to deal with man on man’s level (only without sin), and further advances man himself. The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of Jesus being unashamed to call the human objects of his redeeming work his brethren; and also notes that man’s mission to govern creation as God’s regent (Psalm 8) is not accomplished apart from Christ. Indeed, there are things not yet subject to man; except that there is Jesus who has risen from the dead and now holds all authority in Heaven and on earth. Further, as both God and man, Jesus stands in Heaven as the representative of all who call on him.
In his resurrection, Jesus subdued man’s last enemy, which is death. This is why it is the resurrection that proclaims that Jesus is indeed Lord and Messiah. I should also stress that his is not simply the resurrection of the soul or spirit, but of the body as well. The risen Jesus ate fish with his disciples (Luke 24:42) and allowed Doubting Thomas to examine his wounds (John 20:24-29). God thus shows he is concerned not merely for our souls, but for our bodies as well, and has given us a token that one day the creation will no longer be subject to futility and bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:18-28).
Here, Islam and its Bahai offspring so horribly and tragically miss the point. Muhammad believed he honored Jesus by denying the crucifixion; but thus missed both the atonement worked by Jesus Christ and his victory over death itself prior to his ascencion. The best they can give us is one more rule giver exhorting us to be good, when all of our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The New Testament, however, gives us one who gives a lasting salvation.
The Kitab-e-Iqan says Jesus annulled the laws of the Sabbath and divorce. Again, Baha’ullah misses the point. What Jesus said about divorce was that Moses allowed it only for man’s hardness of heart—a telling indictment against man, not against Moses or the Scriptures. Only adultery can justify divorce (and this teaching found in the Gospel’s further echoes the opinion of Shammai, a noted rabbi of a generation before Jesus). This is in the context of Jesus’ teaching that the union of a man and a woman goes back to creation, and what God has joined, let not man put asunder.
As for the Sabbath, Baha’ullah misses the point again. Jesus himself is the true Sabbath—in whom believers find rest from their labors (see Hebrews 4, cf. Mt. 11:28).
And here, it seems Baha’ullah just promises us more development and movement, not settled or final truth. To this, I can only note Paul’s warnings in II Timothy 3:7 that there are certain people who are always seekers who never come to really learn the truth.
But there is truth, and the truth is in Jesus Christ.
worldcitizen1919 says
Hi Kepha,
Thanks for your insight and comments. You have made some very good observations and I really appreciate your opinions and views and respect them.
Also is mentioned the prophecies how they have been misinterpreted have been explained and how the Words in the Holy Bible have much more profound meanings than man has given them.
I have to go shipping today so any reply will be late.
Here is the Tablet to the Christians of the World that Baha’u’llah wrote which every Christian should read and ponder.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html
Mo says
@ worldcitizen1919
“The whole issue rests on whether Muhammad was from God or not.
What if He was?? What if the Quran was from God. The same God of the Christians?”
Can you explain how two books can be from the same God when they teach entirely contradictory things, especially on foundational issues like whether Christ was divine, His crucifixion, His resurrection, the way of salvation, and other such issues? Can you explain how that makes even logical sense?
When you are done explaining that, can you explain to me how a terrorist, warlord, sex slave owner and child rapist could possibly be from this God?
But we all know that these are moot points when it comes to you. We all know – as do you – that you have never read the Quran or the Bible, much less compared the two on this issue or any other.
(You know you will ignore this, like you’ve ignored me repeatedly before.)
worldcitizen1919 says
Ok. For starters I have about 10 Bible’s and 10 Qurans and Bible Dictionaries etc and I read and study them, if you want the names of them all I can provide them.
When you leave out the Bahai paradigm it looks like a contradiction and dichotomy and irreconcilable. Without the Bahai explanations the paradox can’t be explained.
I can’t explain these things for you in a single sentence as we are dealing here with an entirely new consciousness and reality which the Bahai Revelation creates.
First we must separate dogma and man made rituals from the Word of God. Once we do that we find that the truth taught in all religions is but the rays of the same sun.
Then the social laws such as marriage, divorce, worship, and many other laws are revealed by each Book for EACH AGE not for all ages.
So when we just accept the Holy Books, the Word of God and understand that there were laws given for each age thrn unity becomes much easier.
Please bear with me as this requires a good writer and I’m not good at writing.
Now all of these Holy Books including the Quran speak of a Day of Resurection when God will give judgement or Christ will return or another Buddha will appear or Krishna will return. Because each Manifestation of God comes for a specific era and brings laws and teachings for that era, They prophesy the next One to come after about a 1,000 years Who is always persecuted and rejected.
So the Jews reject Christ, the Christians reject Muhammad and the Muslims reject Baha’u’llah.
Baha’u’llah is the latest Manifestation of God and He has come to unite all humanity and all religions and bring the Most Great Peace. This is not the need of today?
He wrote over 100 volumes but the Book which readdresses the misconceptions of religionists and clears up the misunderstandings between religionists is called The Book of Certitude. It clears up both Christian and Muslim misunderstanding of their own Holy Books.
Bahai is a new creation not just a religion. It’s a new level of consciousness that rises above sectarian and divisive ideologies and enables one to see all things through the eyes of oneness. In other words, where you see conflict I can see the points of reconciliation, the dots that join the Quran and Bible that you cannot because your consciousness is based upon conflict and competition not oneness and unity and you don’t have the dots which reconcile the differences which come from the Bahai Teachings. So you have a jigsaw puzzle with missing pieces and Baha’u’llah brought the missing pieces.
Western Canadian says
“We know Muhammad is not alive now so it’s not Muhammad going around bombing people. The Quran is a book and like a gun or is an object and needs an evil mind in order to misuse it.
We don’t say all guns are evil just because of a massacre or at least the gun lobby don’t. We may be wrong and it may be a whole host of reasons not just ‘THEM’.”
These are not the comments of a sane, or educated individual, they are drivel from one who has not been taught how to think, but what to think. Your ignorance of both Christianity and islam is utterly staggering, and your claims of studying them are obvious rubbish, You are truly pathetic, as well as ignorant and dishonest. Go away, far, far, away. And take your drivel with you.
worldcitizen1919 says
At least I am educated enough to have some politeness and courtesy and condescend and denigrate others. It’s not necessary to resort to personal insults IF your argument can stand by itself. It can’t that’s why the resorting to insult.
I have no need to resort to such childish tactics as I have the truth.
Lucienne says
worldcitizen1919 which Govt. Agency do you work for? Snicker.
Jesus said there would be a time when they would kill you in the service of God.John 16:2
worldcitizen1919 says
They already kill Baha’is in Iran. Was that supposed to be a death threat?
Lucienne says
Snicker. I am a Born Again Christian saved by the Grace Of God through Jesus Christ by Faith alone. We don’t do death threats. Snicker. Telling that you did not answer the question though.
Score!
PS. People, ever wonder where 9 million people went that fell off the unemployment rolls.They work psyops on the internet and on the streets. By their fruits you shall know them.
Champ says
LOL!! 😀 …good one, and you’re probably right!
worldcitizen1919 says
Congratulations!! Welcome to belief in the glorious Jesus Christ!! You have chosen truth and I hope you remain firm and steadfast and follow His Teachings.
I’m not a member of any Govt. Agency or organisation.
We are killed for our beliefs though. We accept Christ and would die for Him because Jesus is a central part of our belief. If someone put a knife to my throat and asked me to recant my faith in Jesus I would choose thr knife.
Champ says
Baha’i World Faith EXPOSED!
As the new millennium approaches, the crucial need of the human race is to find a unifying vision of the nature of man and society. For the past century humanity’s response to this impulse has driven a succession of ideological upheavals that have convulsed our world and that appear now to have exhausted themselves. The passion invested in the struggle, despite its disheartening results, testifies to the depth of the need. For, without a common conviction about the course and direction of human history, it is inconceivable that foundations can be laid for a global society to which the mass of humankind can commit themselves.
Such a vision unfolds in the writings of Baha’u’llah, the nineteenth-century prophetic figure whose growing influence is the most remarkable development of contemporary religious history. Born in Persia, November 12, 1817, Baha’u’llah began at age twenty-seven an undertaking that has gradually captured the imagination and loyalty of several million people from virtually every race, culture, class, and nation on earth. The phenomenon is one that has no reference points in the contemporary world, but is associated rather with climactic changes of direction in the collective past of the human race. For Baha’u’llah claimed to be no less than the Messenger of God to the age of human maturity, the Bearer of a Divine Revelation that fulfills the promises made in earlier religions, and that will generate the spiritual nerves and sinews for the unification of the peoples of the world.
The Baha’i World Faith claims to be a religion of unique relevance to the modern world. Its emphasis upon rationalism, human rights, international peace, education, equality of the sexes, and the eradication of all forms of prejudice gives the Baha’i Faith a very broad base of appeal. The Baha’i cry for one world religion appeals to the ecumenical spirit of the age, especially in light of the continuing insistence that Baha’i are in perfect harmony with the Christian Faith.
Are Baha’i Christian?
The Biblical answer is No! But Baha’i will answer, ‘yes.’ They claim the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Baha’u’llah are one. The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one. The difference among them is one of terminology only.
The Baha’i Faith is essentially rationalistic. “We must not accept traditional dogmas that are contrary to reason, nor pretend to believe doctrines which we cannot understand. To do so is superstitious and not true religion.”
Because of this inclination to reject any doctrine that does not seem reasonable to them, Baha’i interpret allegorically, rather than literally, the biblical doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the bodily Resurrection of Christ, the existence of angels and evil spirits, and the doctrines of heaven and hell. Yet, despite this insistence that everything must be understood in order to be believed, they hold that God Himself is impersonal and unknowable. He can only be perceived indirectly through the reflection of his Manifestations – Jesus being ONLY ONE of these NINE, in no manner superior to the other eight.
Baha’i deny that man fell through Adam from his original spiritual and moral state. They affirm that no one is “essentially” bad or evil, but merely imperfect. Sins are characteristics of the lower, baser plane of nature, and education brings deliverance from them. Baha’u’llah taught that men ought not to confess their sins to one another, for this would lead to humiliation and abasement, which he taught, are contrary to God’s will.
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. [James 5:16]
Here: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Bahai/bahai_exposed.htm
Mark Swan says
Lucienne
It is conspicuously obvious You Are A Stinking Muslim! SNICKER
Lucienne says
And another Govt. Goon. Yawn.
worldcitizen1919 says
Baha’is are not Muslims. Even Muslims reject us and have legal rulings in many countries that we are not Muslims. Muslims consider us apostates so you should be absolutely clear in this matter. Google it yourself if you aren’t clear.
We are in no way Muslims.
This is only one comment from a Muslim professor and that was in 1949 so even then we were considered not part of Islam.
Sheikh Abdolmajid Salim, head of the committee for religious rulings and a professor at Cairo’s Al-Azhar University, noted in September 1949: ‘Bahaism is by no means a Muslim sect. Because, this creed is contradictory with the principles of Islam and is a religion which contradicts other divine religions. A Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a Bahai man and if she does so, her marriage is void. Those Muslims who convert to Bahaism are apostate, and marriage, even with a Bahai woman, is null and void.”
Walter Sieruk says
The god of Islam is a god who according to the authorized written works of Islam is Allah “who has no son.He had begotten none.” In great contrast is the God of Christianity has a Son. He had begotten a Son. As the Bible teaches “For God so loved the world, that He gave is His only begotten Son..” John 3:16. [N.K.J.V] Likewise the Jesus is the Son of God. Being the Son of God Who is God the Father is further seen in the Bible in ,for example, Matthew 3:16,16. 16:15,16. Luke 1:35.John 3:17,36. First John 2:22,23. 4:14,15. 5:12,13,20. Therefore, the God of the Bible is not the god of the Koran. In other words the God of Christianity is not the god of Islam.
Mark Swan says
Lucienne
What is a Govt. Goon?
WorkingClassPost says
My God stood there before me
And proud, He called my name.
Then showed how I might find Him,
In a single drop of rain.
He helped me when I faltered,
Knocked me down when I excelled,
But stood by my bad decisions
And praised when I did well.
Indeed my God was crucified,
But life is no more tragic,
For He also walked in Buddha’s shoes,
And was baptized by St. Patrick.
So when you meet your Maker,
As meet Him we all must,
Prepare to meet a loving God
Both tolerant and just.
Fear not that He’ll chastise you
Or ask ‘How did you come?’,
For His Welcome is as great,
As from the Father, or the Son.
Then with a Universe of questions,
You’ll ask but only one,
On bended knee, you’ll simply say,
‘My God. What have I done.’
http://www.JihadWatch.org
th3analogkid says
The fact that you would post something so ludicrous “The thing here is. What if God DID send Muhammad??” is a testament to either complete ignorance or being a Maqama Troll. In medieval Arabic literature, maqama were collections of tales recounted in a mixture of poetry and prose. Each vignette described the accomplishments of a sly trickster who hoodwinked his adversaries using deceptive rhetoric. When a a sufficiently skilled reply is given (Thanks Walter) no response is usually given.
Champ says
allah is NOT the God of the Bible …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” (1 John 2:23 NIV)
Long before Muhammad was born, Arabic Christians were already referring to God as Allah — and millions continue to do so today. The Allah of Islam, however, is definitely not the God of the Bible; for while Muslims passionately defend the unity of God, they patently deny His triunity. They recoil at the notion of God as Father, reject the unique deity of Jesus Christ the Son, and renounce the divine identity of the Holy Spirit.
First, while Jesus taught His disciples to pray “Our Father in heaven,” devotees of Muhammad find the very notion offensive. To their way of thinking, calling God “Father” and Jesus Christ “Son” suggests sexual procreation. According to the Qur’an, “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son” (Sura 19:35); and Allah “begetteth not, nor is he begotten” (Sura 112:3). The Bible, however, does not use the term “begotten” with respect to the Father and the Son in the sense of sexual reproduction but rather in the sense of special relationship; thus, when the apostle John speaks of Jesus as “the only begotten of the Father” (John 1:14 KJV, emphasis added), he is underscoring the unique deity of Christ. John goes on to state, “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known” (John 1:18 NIV). When the apostle Paul likewise refers to Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation” (Colossians 1:15 NIV, emphasis added), he is emphasizing Christ’s preeminence or prime position as the Creator of all things (cf. vv. 16–19). Christians are sons of God through adoption; Jesus is God the Son from all eternity.
Muslims, furthermore, dogmatically denounce the Christian declaration of Christ’s unique deity as the unforgivable sin of shirk. As the Qur’an puts it, “Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this” (Sura 4:116). Muslims readily affirm the sinlessness of Christ, however, they adamantly deny His sacrifice upon the cross and subsequent resurrection. In doing so, they deny the singular historical fact that demonstrates that Jesus does not stand in a long line of peers from Abraham to Muhammad, but is God in human flesh. The Qur’anic phrase, “Allah raised him up” (Sura 4:158) is taken to mean that Jesus was supernaturally raptured rather than resurrected from the dead. In Islamic lore, God made someone look like Jesus, and this look-alike was crucified in His place. In recent years, the myth that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus has been popularized in Muslim circles due to the propagation of a late-medieval work titled The Gospel of Barnabas. Against the weight of historical evidence, the Qur’an exclaims, “they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them” (Sura 4:157).
Finally, in addition to rejecting the divinity of Jesus, Islam also renounces the divine identity of the Holy Spirit. Far from being the third person of the triune God who inspired the text of the Bible, Islam teaches that the Holy Spirit is the archangel Gabriel who dictated the Qur’an to Muhammad over a period of 23 years. This is ironic considering that Islam also identifies the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus in John 14 as Muhammad. The Bible, however, roundly rejects such corruptions and misrepresentations. The Holy Spirit is neither an angel nor a mere mortal; rather, He is the very God Who redeems us from our sins and will one day resurrect us to life eternal (e.g., Acts 5:3–4; Rom. 8:11).
Here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible-answer-man/read/articles/is-the-allah-of-islam-the-god-of-the-bible-10578.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great teaching from the “Bible Answer Man”, Hank Hanegraaff!
Also, the pedophile they call a ‘prophet’, muhammad, was NEVER prophesied to come in the Bible …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Question: “Does the Bible prophesy the coming of Muhammad?”
Answer: There are three primary passages in the Bible that Muslims often point to as prophecies of the coming of Muhammad: Deuteronomy 18:15-22, Song of Solomon 5:16, and John 16:5-11.
First, in regards to Deuteronomy 18:15-22, the immediate context of this passage refers back to verses 9-14. There Moses warns the people of the danger of false prophets. God’s people are to avoid any and all who presume to speak authoritatively about spiritual truth apart from God’s truth. What is God’s truth? Verse 15 says a particular prophet will arise from the Jews (i.e., “your own brothers”) who will be like Moses. Notice that it’s not just any prophet, as there have been many, but a special prophet. People who studied and believed the Old Testament writings were looking for this particular, special prophet. In fact, some Jewish leaders thought the fiery preacher John the Baptist might be the fulfillment of Moses’ prophecy (see John 1:19-30). John the Baptist, however, said that he was the forerunner of the prophet of whom Moses spoke, not the prophet Himself.
Who then is this prophet spoken of in the Bible? He is clearly none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:43-45 records that the early followers of Jesus understood He was the prophet of whom Moses wrote. Jesus Himself declared this about Himself (Luke 24:27). The most complete statement pointing to Jesus as the promised prophet is found in Acts 3:12-26. The deacon, Stephen, reiterated this in Acts 7:37. Such notable men as John the Baptist, Philip, Peter, and Stephen all testified that Jesus Christ, not Muhammad, is the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:15-22.
Second, in Song of Solomon 5:16, the maiden says of her lover, “His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem.” The word translated as “lovely” is the Hebrew word machamadim. It is the plural of machamad, which means “lovely, cute, or desirable.” Although it is the root word of Muhammad, it does not follow that the verse refers to Muhammad, especially since the word used is a plural adjective, not the name of a person.
Finally, in John 16:5-11, Jesus prophesies that after He leaves, the Counselor will come, and this Counselor will “convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). Who is this Counselor? Jesus Himself gives the answer a few verses later in John 16:13, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth…” Jesus explicitly identifies the Counselor as the Holy Spirit. Jesus previously had used very similar terminology to predict the coming of the Holy Spirit: “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name…” (John 14:26). It is abundantly clear in the Bible that the Counselor Jesus prophesied was the Holy Spirit, not Muhammad.
In conclusion, the Bible nowhere specifically predicts the coming of Muhammad. Muhammad was not the prophet Moses predicted, and Muhammad was not the Counselor Jesus predicted. Since the message of Muhammad contradicts the message of Jesus and the Bible on many points, the only biblical prophecy that would apply to the coming of Muhammad would be Matthew 24:11, “And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people…”
Here: http://www.gotquestions.org/Muhammad-Bible.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I especially *love* the point that “Got Questions” makes about muhammad in the Conclusion section:
“Since the message of Muhammad contradicts the message of Jesus and the Bible on many points, the only biblical prophecy that would apply to the coming of Muhammad would be Matthew 24:11, “And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people…”
Hear, hear!! Yes–muhammad was indeed a *FALSE PROPHET*, that’s for sure!
Bezelel says
Heal the sick, Raise the dead, Cleanse the lepers and cast out demons. None of these things were on moHameds to do list.
Kepha says
Amen.
Bangalow Bob says
The photo is crying out for a caption competition.
Just for starters, the chap with the green headband…
‘the jihad pale ale recipe calls for galaxy hops, not that cheap crap you used, it says so right here.’
Mark Swan says
Good One
DP111 says
I find it surprising that India, a secular democracy, stands way ahead of many Islamic countries in its persecution of Christians. India ranks 17, with many Islamic countries having a better record then India.
Really shocked.
deja vu says
India has a strong Hindu Nationalist party which causes a great deal of suffering, especially over the church’s efforts to educate the Dalits (untouchables) – thus posing a threat to the status quo of the inhumane caste system’s use of them as the lowest of the low.
Interestingly, it is 3 points ahead of Qatar at 21, which most people would assume is a highly Westernised, sophisticated and desirable place to do business.
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/
Dar says
Caption: “Where’s Waldo? I cannot find Waldo! Can someone help me find Waldo? Allah, help me!”
Bezelel says
Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally [2] minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal [3] mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
islam indulges in carnality and calls itself a religion? No way, No how. Their is No god named allah. islam is a magnet for perverts and miscreants looking for self justification for self gratification.
somehistory says
James wrote: “With evil things, God cannot be tried. Neither does He try anyone.”
Clearly the unholy book is a book of “evil things.” God is not in any way responsible for it being written and in no way is He responsible for what is written in it, nor for the evil things men and women have done to further the evil written in it.
The unholy, evil book is from the unholy, evil demon devil, satan. The devil had it written to lead men and women into depravity, destruction and death, killing any and all who refuse to follow them down that satanic path.
It seems some of the ones who wrote contrary to Truth on the first installment of this subject are still of the same mind (thread #2). And that’s just sad. But not totally unexpected, because Jesus said it would be so. (Matthew 7)
William McKenzie says
Matthew 22:36-40: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Sahih Bukhari book 2 number 25: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle was asked, “What is the best deed?” He replied, “To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, “What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, “To participate in Jihad in Allah’s Cause.”
nuf said..
eduardo odraude says
Nice comparison, William McKenzie. Here’s another important comparison:
http://quotingislam.blogspot.com/2011/06/core-islamic-texts-disagree-with-bible.html
citycat says
With all due respects i can’t get it. It’s really good then Christianity.
I guess there has to be some anchoring.
Survival is sufficient, but each to their own.
Some stuff ok, like “Bless those that curse you” meaning- use greater magic to sort out the cursers.
“Do good to those that hate you” meaning- do them good style.
“and pray for those that spitefully use you” meaning- use the Christ magic to disempower them.
“of course we may fail”?
Ralph Sidway fails hourly in following Jesus’ commandments? Like what? Just being normal doesn’t break them. And it proves their divine origin? It don’t take divine origin to have a bit of common. And i’m not born in sin, i’m innocent, and my father is not in heaven, he’s in a house.
I think this moral self-flagellation is not good for moral.
And i’m not sure that fighting religion with religion is gonna work. Not that i know what is gonna transform humanity into humans
Champ says
https://youtu.be/4JK_6osCH74
Champ says
Listen and be blessed …
Sybil Sobieski says
Mr. Sidway – a great summary of Christian perspectives
Indeed – “by their fruits you shall know them, and not by the words of their mouths” – especially when they are lying to you, as commanded by their “holy” book —-
their actions truly speak louder than even their screams of “allah u akbar”
islam :- the hateful religion of idiots says
Being confronted by a crowd of dirty smelling very ugly old men shouting “allah u akbar” and pointing at their stupid book is terrorism by itself …
citycat says
I see
Blessed be.
Don’t negate yourself.
Agustinus Daniel says
Islam does not worship the same GOD as christianity does. Our GOD builds the true civilization throuygh judeo-christian civilization, but on the contrary Islam explicitly want to destroy the judeo-christian civilization. Islam simply is an anti-thesis of christianity. Islam is our enemy and we had to fight it.
If we have to fight then we need to become a soldier of Christ. And as the soldiers of Christ we have the ultimate weapon: prayer.
Please join us through Jesus Meditation, a mental prayer which is rooted in the Church tradition and can be practiced by ALL CHRISTIANS:
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wE4sxR0ijo&w=560&h=315%5D
We already uploaded 3 videos so far. More videos will be added soon.
Thank you and God bless you all.
Kepha says
Eduardo:
Saw your 5:48 (2/5/16) reply. Yes, I am an old-line Calvinist, which means that I believe that not only is God omnipotent, but that he knows exactly what he is doing in every one of his works of creation, redemption, and providence. Now you, I, Augustine of Hippo, C.S. Lewis, and John Calvin all put together might not know, but God does.
I also believe that any question of our merit and demerit is moot. In sin our mothers conceived us (Ps. 51) and we are all laboring under a load of sin (demerit).
As for Lewis’ idea of Hell, I’m not sure that Lewis (whom I generally respect) fully appreciated how God goes all the way for those whom he saves. I can sympathize with what he was trying to do, but I’m not sure his proposal about Hell follows the teaching of Scripture from good and necessary consequence.
Nor am I so sure it is wrong to be a bit “bothered” or “disturbed” by the mysteries of divine predestination. For all I know, it is a means the Holy Spirit is using to drive some of his beloved people to a wider and deeper appreciation of who God actually is.
But, on a lighter note:
Moderns, with great consternation,
Hate Calvin’s predestination.
Economics, we know,
Or our genes run the show
Of our lives. This we call “liberation”.
Just keep in mind that the God who predestines whatsoever comes to pass is also the God who sent his Son, that whosoever believes in him, should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16).
eduardo odraude says
Thanks Uncle.