“Islam, Christianity and Judaism all look to Abraham as the father of our faith traditions,” Carson said. “Understanding one another’s traditions is important to share peace and understanding in our community.”
“Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim. And he was not of the polytheists.” (Qur’an 3:67)
“There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, ‘Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah. We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone’ except for the saying of Abraham to his father, ‘I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah. Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.” (Qur’an 60:4) In other words, Abraham is an excellent pattern for believers when he tells his unbelieving relatives that “there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone,” but not when he says to his father, “I will surely ask forgiveness for you.”
“I have realized that when people hear a narrative repeated often enough, they will buy into it — even when that narrative is false.” Indeed. That’s what this dialogue in Las Cruces is all about: repeating that false narrative so that more people will buy into it.
“What I learned here today that I did not understand at all about Islam or the Muslims is that they really respect all nations, and believe that it’s OK to have many religions,” said Carol Peterson, a participant from Peace Lutheran, speaking after the February event. “They believe that basically there’s one God. I was under the impression that Muslims wanted all of us to be one, wanted us to be like they are. But they respect us. I didn’t know that, and that blew my mind — because I thought that was the purpose of all this turmoil in our world. I thought they wanted us to become Muslim.”
“And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.” (Qur’an 3:85)
“And fight them until there is no fitnah and the religion, all of it, is for Allah.” (Qur’an 8:39)
“Understanding Islam: Las Cruces church creates dialogue,” by Damien Willis, Las Cruces Sun-News, March 21, 2016 (thanks to Christopher):
LAS CRUCES – A Las Cruces church is making an effort to increase understanding and foster dialogue between the local Christian and Islam communities. Peace Lutheran Church has launched an ongoing series of presentations called “Understanding Islam,” in collaboration with members of the Islamic Center of Las Cruces.
The first presentation took place at Peace Lutheran Church on Feb. 16 and focused on the fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam, as well as the Islamic view of Judaism and Christianity. More than 100 people participated in the discussion. More discussions are planned, including an event on Tuesday to discuss ISIS, freedom of religion and women’s role in Islam.
“We had a very positive response — overwhelmingly positive,” said Jared Carson, pastor of Peace Lutheran. “We conducted a survey afterward, asking if they would be willing to invite a friend to future events. Eighty percent said they would.”
Why it’s important“Islam, Christianity and Judaism all look to Abraham as the father of our faith traditions,” Carson said. “Understanding one another’s traditions is important to share peace and understanding in our community.”
Muhammad Dawood, a native of Pakistan who is an associate professor at NMSU’s College of Engineering, was one of three panelists at the first convening.
“I am an educator,” Dawood said. “I teach and touch lives every day. From that perspective, I have realized that when people hear a narrative repeated often enough, they will buy into it — even when that narrative is false. But when you give them another perspective, they tend to look at the issue more critically. These are profound issues. And, given the opportunity, we are really good at coming to our own conclusions.”
Carson believes a respectful dialogue can achieve great things.
“The importance of civil dialogue with others is an important model,” he said. “While I’ll maintain my own faith, learning about my neighbor is very important — to build relationships.”
Randy Harris of the Great Conversation, a Las Cruces organization that promotes thoughtful and respectful dialogue, attended the first discussion.
“Events and gatherings like this serve to bring our community together in commitment to compassionate and informed engagement,” Harris said. “In a time when the default practice in our politics and religion, particularly, seems to be one of demonizing and deriding and pitting neighbor against neighbor, those willing to come together for civil dialogue are much appreciated.”
The response“It was wonderful,” Dawood told the Sun-News, about February’s kick off event. “People were very encouraging, and they clearly wanted us to do this. We’re so grateful to the people at Peace Lutheran for providing us the platform.”
Dawood said the discussion far exceeded his expectations.
Many who participated walked away with a much different perspective on the Islamic faith.
“What I learned here today that I did not understand at all about Islam or the Muslims is that they really respect all nations, and believe that it’s OK to have many religions,” said Carol Peterson, a participant from Peace Lutheran, speaking after the February event. “They believe that basically there’s one God. I was under the impression that Muslims wanted all of us to be one, wanted us to be like they are. But they respect us. I didn’t know that, and that blew my mind — because I thought that was the purpose of all this turmoil in our world. I thought they wanted us to become Muslim.”
Colleen Morken, a Border Servant Corps volunteer, also attended the inaugural “Understanding Islam” event.
“I really have very little understanding of Islam, and I feel like it’s kind of looked down upon — to even try to learn about it,” Morken said. “Especially in light of recent events, and certain politicians that are running for office. I really wanted to have concrete reasons for telling people that they should not be Islamophobic, instead of just telling people not to judge a group based on the actions of a few people — a few people that are technically not even a part of the group.”
Morken said she gained a better understanding of the roots Islam shares with Christianity and Judaism, and the role the Quran play in the context of other holy texts.
“A lot of it is peace, love, mercy and grace toward one another,” Morken said. “A lot of times, that is overlooked in the mainstream media.”
Two religions, one conversationJoyce Larsen, a Las Cruces Muslim who attends the Islamic Center of Las Cruces, attended the February event. She said it is critical to provide a forum where dialogue can be fostered in this age of heightened rhetoric.
“It’s really important, in our current cultural and political atmosphere,” Larson said. “It seems, at least in some circles, that things are getting more intolerant rather than better. I think it’s important to counteract that larger national vibe. It means a lot that people want to understand and respect each other. It means that there’s a lot of hope for us to work together.”
Karen Harvey, a Christian who attends Peace Lutheran, agreed.
“With the things that are happening in our country right now, I really wanted to get some more information,” Harvey said. “I wanted to be more knowledgeable about what Islam is. I had always know that they believe in some of the Christian prophets, and that Jesus Christ was a prophet.”
Harvey said she left with a better understanding of the way Muslims regard Jesus, and the distinction between prophets and messengers.
Tackling terrorismThe second “Understanding Islam” discussion will take place from 6 to 8 p.m. Tuesday at Peace Lutheran Church, 1701 E. Missouri Ave. The event is free and open to the public, and you do not need to have participated in the first dialogue to attend.
“We are not really scholars of theology, we’re just regular common folks explaining the way we understand it,” Dawood said. “The one on Tuesday will be even better than the first one, I think. We’ll be talking about ISIS, and some of the hot-button issues you see on the news. The sound bites you hear really aren’t helping anyone. As Muslims in the U.S., we’ll go into the way it’s impacting us.”…
“Impacting us,” not the victims of jihad terrorism. So apparently the talk will be dedicated to showing how Muslims are victims, and “Islamophobia,” not jihad terrorism, is the problem.

jr says
this Lutheran church must be a joke church
John spielman says
Yes it is, it’s a member of the ELCA ,the Ex Lutheran Church( now) Apostate.the ELCA is a dying group of churches which embraced all the western leftist causes and has lost 50 % of membership in 10 years with thousands of churches leaving the synod or closing.
Angemon says
Good to know that at least 50% of their congregation is keeping their eyes peeled.
Nancy M says
Correct. My Missouri Synod Lutheran Church has for years offered a study of Islam which even jihad watch would recognize as accurate…actually reading the Quran and understanding the text.
ELCA is more of a typical Protestant social action organization and still popular in New England as this area embraces secularism as the highest moral authority.
Carlos Danger says
The room seems to be packed with geezers.
jihad3tracker says
The pastor of this church, Jared Carson, is almost certainly contactable by one path or another. If readers here can spare 10 minutes to gently wake him up, please do so. I’m sure you have your own resources (websites and texts), and here are three of mine: www [dot] inquiryintoislam [dot] com / www [dot] citizenwarrior [dot] com / www [dot] answeringmuslims [dot] com.
The Citizen Warrior resource has a superb item titled “The Quran’s last word on non-Muslims”, found by typing those words in its search box. It cites the abrogating violent verses in the 2nd to last sura [Taubah, chapter nine in the Quran’s NOT-CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER], but in fact received just a year before Muhammad died in 631
THAT ANSWERING MUSLIMS BLOG IS BY DAVID WOOD, A DEEPLY COMMITTED CHRISTIAN, SO IT MIGHT BE THE — MOST APPROPRIATE ONE — FOR THIS LUTHERAN PASTOR. Write to him about Islam’s permission to lie for the purpose of deceit, and also that CAIR will be telling him that anyone of us who lets him know that he has been seriously tricked, is an “ISLAMOPHOBE”.
Gea says
I was at a similar event yesterday organized by a Freedom Center in Cincinnati and the Catholic Xavier University, where prominent local Muslims pulled the wool over attendees regarding Islam. They denied EVERYTHING nasty written in Koran, Haditha and Sira, and even implied that those books provided basis for US Constitution.
There were two creatures in the audience wearing niquabls…black scary creatures. It is high time to organized more teach ins about TRUE nature of Islam which is a totalitarian, supremacist and imperialistic IDEOLOGY of hate of all NON-Muslims, which is not compatible with the US Constitution and the Universal declaration of Independence. Many EX-Muslims had warned us that Islam ITSELF is worse than Nazism, as it also condones pedophilia, polygamy, rape, misogyny, slavery, looting and mass murder.
Hope says
Believe me, the United Church of Christ (UCC) is just as bad. I resigned my membership in the UCC recently because what used to be a liberal denomination is now radical hard-core leftist. They are not worshipping Christ, but Che Guevara. Shame on these churches for misleading the congregations and leading lambs to the slaughter. The people in the pews are do-gooders who welcome any chance to “join in solidarity” with the “marginalized,” which is how they see muslims. They are being told lies and they have no freakin’ idea what we are up against.
billybob says
You may find it interesting – as did I – how Robert Spencer was received by a different group of Lutherns. My impression was that these Lutherans were not uninformed about Islam, and they very enthusiastically applauded Mr. Spencer in the end. Here is the link to the YouTube video, appropriately shortened by Google URL shortening… https://goo.gl/ijZN4u
heidi says
and it has nothing to do with interfaith dialogue. it’s all about the money, and Lutheran resettlement services (referred to as LIRS ironically enough) has received $296 million tax payer dollars to bring “refugees” into this country since Obama got in office https://anncorcoran2016.org/2016/02/06/have-some-fun-at-usa-spending-gov-296-million-went-to-lutherans-since-obama-took-office/
Christopher Navage says
Absolutely the nail on the head. Follow the money. Religious organizations would sell their moms to get those precious grants aimed at weakening Western culture and endangering the rest of us.I do have a petition on Care2 to end tax exemptions for religions, it’s way past time. Religious organizations need tax exemptions like the world needs more Muslim refugees.
Hope says
You are so right! Many of these “religious organizations” are actually just left wing community organizers (remember how Obama started out) who push a Marxist agenda. There is a thin veneer of “religion” on top which preserves their tax-exempt status. Time to expose this fiasco and put an end to it.
Jaladhi says
Only fools fall into this trap of Islam is just like Christianity and Judaism since they all look to Abraham as the source of the three and “Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim. And he was not of the polytheists.” (Qur’an 3:67)(from above)”.
Muslims have lied for the centuries and still continue lying as their book is full of lies and tells Muslims to lie!1
Pong says
“Only fools fall into this trap of Islam…”
That is overwhelming majority of people.
marta mikey frid says
If Abraham is the patriarch or the Muslims, how come Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac, but the Muslims have never stopped sacrificing their children. Or, is it possible that Baka Horam, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas are not Muslims?
Westman says
Sadly, Pastor Jared Carson, the flock’s shepherd, has led them into this pit of the lazy. Too lazy, himself, to read and study the core texts of Islam. He invites someone, engineering instructor Dawood, who says,” We are not really scholars of theology, we’re just regular common folks explaining the way we understand it”, which really says Dawood is pushing the version he wishes mainstream Islam would observe.
I don’t believe for a moment that Dawood actually believes strongly in Islam. As an engineer he would have easily identified the contradictions and changing nature of Muhammad and Allah in the texts. It seems more likely that he is being placed as an apologist to mitigate rising animosity for the local Islamic society in which he must live. For him, this life is the reality, the next is a myth; which makes the peaceful myth as valid and useful as the mainstream myths of Islam. He cannot escape the real community of Ummah and relatives so he walks the line of safety.
Beagle says
Oddly, the resulting western converts from this sort of interfaith effort, formerly peaceful, often get the crazy idea Islam calls them to struggle in Allah’s cause, striking terror in the hearts of non-Muslims by killing and being killed on the way to ‘paradise.’ It is almost as though the Muslim apologist-recruiters speaking to the churches are lying and the instructions they follow are written in a mysterious book, or something.
The hypothetical book or books, which no mainstream authorities ever discuss, seem to lay out a multi-pronged strategy for conquest in which the early phase emphasizes gaining converts and allies while Muslim numbers are comparatively small, as we see in the US. But in some Belgian neighborhoods, for example, it seems like a separate rump state has been created and is becoming more violent.
Ah well, nothing to worry about. The nice Muslim spokesman said it will all be fine and that Islam is peaceful.
dumbledoresarmy says
Is there any American jihadwatcher, resident in or near “Peace Lutheran Church”, Las Cruces, who could acquire copies of 1/ Mark Durie’s “Which God?” and 2/ the Barnabas Fund booklet “Is the Muslim Isa the Biblical Jesus?” and… post them, with a *brief” covering letter, to the Pastor of that Church.
Throw in a couple of Raymond Ibrahim’s essays on Islamic deception.
Here’s one.
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
“How Taqiyya Alters Islam’s Rules of War: Defeating Jihadist Terrorism,” Raymond Ibrahim in the Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2010.
Here’s another.
http://www.meforum.org/2066/war-and-peace-and-deceit-in-islam
“War and Peace – and Deceit – in Islam”
by Raymond Ibrahim
Pajamas Media
February 12, 2009
Edgar Allen says
It is up to us to counter these lies. We have to attend these events and be ready to ask a few pointed questions and show these speakers to be outright liars.
We have to have short, to the point, letters to mail to our local Churches and Church leaders, with leaflets, etc. to counter this madness.
We have to rrange our own counter-narratives in our own Churches, cicvic clubs, anywhere that will let an opposing point of view, WHILE WE STILL CAN.
dumbledoresarmy says
Yes.
Pere LaChaise says
If you want to counter the lies, you need speakers who know from Islam not callow youths from Indiana. Seek the advice of Archpriest Daniel Byantoro, an Indonesian who converted frm his family’s Islam to e orthodox Christian faith through revelation. If you can’t get hold of him, get Apr. Josiah Trenham, rector of St. Andrew Orthodox Church in Riverside, CA. Both of these men have spoken forcefully on the subject of Islam all around the country and can wake people up from the stupor imposed by the likes of Carson.
Benedict says
These Christian pastors and priests talk about peace where as the Muslims do not give a damn and look at the Christian lot as weak. The Muslims are chopping the heads of Christians and enforcing all they Islamic laws on them but these thick skulled pastors and priests go on preaching love and peace to the Muslims. Other faiths do understand about love and peace but not a Muslim
Veritas says
Understanding Islam
Quote From above:
“What I learned here today that I did not understand at all about Islam or the Muslims is that they really respect all nations, and believe that it’s OK to have many religions,” said Carol Peterson, a participant from Peace Lutheran, speaking after the February event.
Quote from reality:
AFP 13th April 2016
“An elderly Christian woman has been caned in a conservative Indonesian province for selling alcohol, the first time someone from outside the Islamic faith has been punished there under strict religious laws.
The 60-year was whipped nearly 30 times with a rattan cane before a crowd of hundreds in Aceh province Tuesday, an official said, along with a couple who were subjected to 100 lashes for committing adultery.
Aceh is the only province in the predominantly Muslim country that applies sharia law, and public canings for breaches of Islamic code happen on a regular basis and often attract huge crowds.
Those caught engaging in adultery, same-sex relationships, drinking and even associating with unmarried members of the opposite sex can end up facing the cane.
Though the law once only applied to Muslims, a bylaw that took effect late last year allowed sharia regulations to be applied to non-Muslims in certain situations, Lili Suparli, a senior official at the Central Aceh prosecutor’s office told AFP.”
Fessitude says
“Aceh is the only province in the predominantly Muslim country that applies sharia law…”
Even what is enforced in Aceh is not 100% sharia law (e.g., flogging for adultery vs. execution); it’s been diluted by the legacy of Dutch colonialism mediated by dictators over the generations. And when one looks up Jakarta (mainstream Indonesia, not in Aceh), one finds that their criminal code mandates 5 years in prison for adultery and an indeterminate prison time for “cohabitation”, as well as prison time for “black magic” — again, Sharia diluted by Dutch colonialism and local coconut water. And unfit for the 21st century.
http://jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/news/indonesias-new-criminal-code-outlaws-adultery-cohabiting-couples-dark-magic/
Richard Paulsen says
Giving up? Awaiting islam being spread all over the Western world, just like happened to arabic. Pandemic. Not caring? Inidfferent?
Islam is the second religion in Sweden now. 1. Protestant church. 2. Islam. 3. Catholicism.
Soon it will be: 1. Islam 2. Protestant church 3. Catholicism.
In all of Europe islam is now number 2. 1. Catholicism 2. Islam 3. Protestant church. Islam in Europe growing faster than other religions.
Are there any meetings discussing understanding of Christianity organized by islamic organizations.
Just 0-10% Christians in islamic countries. Nor being treated well.
Not long time ago the U.S. president joined Erdogan from Turkey in opening the biggest mosque in the U.S.A. Just the other day joining the erecting joining the erection of a statue honouring women´s rights. Sitting on two chairs at the same time.
How come there is migration to the Christian world from the islamic, since islam is so good? No migration the other way.
I think that what the world needs is less islam and more of democracy. What U.S.A. needs is democratization, not islamization. Europe also needs less islam and more of democracy.
JMB says
Reply to Veritas and R Paulsen (Above) Thank you for saying it the way it is. To any thinking person it should be worrying, very worrying or plain scary. But no, we have people who think they know better and seem not to have read history just welcoming the Islamic invaders to the west, they accept their lies and half truths all in the name of what is a very one way dialogue. It reminds me of those communists who from the comfort and security of the west continued to praise and make excuses for communism right up until the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia when they suddenly woke up and saw through the whole evil system.
Perhaps Pastor Carson should invite to speak at his Church some Christians who have actually lived under Islam so as to get the real truth of what is going on. He could begin by inviting Coptic Orthodox Christians from so called Westernized Egypt. Perhaps he can locate some Christians from Indonesia where Muslim Youths are encouraged to torch Churches. Then there are the regular atrocities committed against Christians in Pakistan and Nigeria and many places in between. The list could go on and on.
Richard Paulsen says
You are welcome. There are lots of stories from those escaping islamic countries worth listening to. Islam and communism seems to me being very much alike. Very much alike nazism too.
A young girl from Iran told me that once an imam entered the classroom in her school in iran. Handing over a “key to Paradise” to boys going to fight the war against Iraq.
A woman from Armenia told wearing a necklace with a cross being forbidden. Revolutionaries in Iran sitting with machineguns (kalashnikovs?) outside the home of a minister of the sha cabinet.
There lots of stories worth listening to. Instead of propaganda.
dumbledoresarmy says
The pastor at Peace Lutheran Church could invite Simon Deng, a Sudanese Christian who was captured and *enslaved* by Muslims.
He could invite Mrs Daniel Wani, nee Meriam Ibrahim, also from the Sudan, daughter of a Muslim father and Christian mother; the father deserted the family when she was little and her mother raised her as a Christian and she married a Christian – and then someone dobbed her in and she was accused of Apostasy and condemned to be executed for 1/ apostasy from Islam (since she courageously confessed her Christian faith) and 2/ marrying a Christian (since Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslim men). Only a storm of worldwide protest plus some diplomatic pressure – and the grace of God – made it possible for her and her two little ones (the youngest born in prison in Sudan) to escape Sudan and be reunited with her husband. She now lives in the USA. The church could invite *her* to give a presentation… on what it is like to be persecuted, and how her faith in Christ sustained her in a horrible prison in North Sudan, while outside huge mobs howled for her blood.
and I am sure there would be others.
People from the Assyrian and Armenian Christian emigre communities in the USA – proudly present since their founding by the survivors fleeing Muslim mass murder of their communities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries – could be invited to speak about what their forebears suffered under Muslim domination.
duh_swami says
Did Abraham found Islam centuries before Mahound? Did Gabriel appear and tell him to do it? The whole story is a fable and that’s it…
Word games…Tal3e the A from Abraham and put it on the end and you get Brahana…Sane with Abram= Brama…Was Abraham actually a Hindu? only Gabriel knows for sure
Bill says
This is like that Catholic priest in Florida earlier reported on in this forum. Everyone gathers for a great Kumbaya moment. Everyone “feels” good about themselves because they are so loving, open, understanding and caring. “Yes, we can all just get along, look at us!” The religious leaders in charge bask in the warm glow of their adherents’ adulation. It is so easy and convenient to be this way as nothing at all is at risk for them in the moment. None of them wants the euphoric bubble to burst. In reality, Christians and people of other non-Islamic faiths are being murdered, maimed, deprived of property, politically disenfranchised, taxed based on their faith and even enslaved by the sons of Allah. To me, these “I want to feel good” Christians are all willing enablers of all of this horror. At best, each member of such a flock is weak and easily lead. At worst, the flock, and most definitely the leaders of it are self-indulgent, near to the point of being evil.
In another news forum, it is reported that gay Air France flight stewards are resisting serving flights to Iran where they claim they could be killed just for being gay. Reality is creeping in slowly. But, the leaders of the gay community march lock-step with leftists, refuse to condemn Islam, still support open borders, hate Christians and foolishly embrace the spread of the one religion that is most virulently opposed to them.
undrebed cat says
Robert, Raymond….or just send a little video from called,” 3 Things you should know about islam’…directly to the point…for beginners. In fact it would be a great public service announcement, just to do a quick repair of facts or truth. Who ever made that little clip was a genius, it covers some basics.
William says
There are many ignorant, probably willfully, people out there waiting for Mohammedan apologists and proselytizers to ‘educate’ them. One of the church member said she wanted to be more knowledgeable about what Islam is. Holy cow! A lot of work remains.
dumbledoresarmy says
And there is no-one else to do it except us…
Every one of us, in our degree, wherever we are.
The ‘Citizen Warrior’ website is very helpful. Lots of simple, practical tips about ‘getting through’.
D J says
I prefer the American version of sura 9 to 5 as enunciated by Parton,Tomlin and Fonda.It’s so much more fun than the Koranic version.
Michael Johnson says
Well they may try to understand Muslims but Muslims ain’t gonna understand them they murder and kill Christians and Jews maybe these people need to go to Syria or Iraq and Saudi Arabia so they can get a more clear understanding of Muslims
satch1 says
Certainly the garb you wear doesn’t make a prophet from one who wants to Profit by believing a LIE from Satan by reading Anything at All from book called Quran, [Koran] Carol Peterson has been completely brainwashed compared to an ISIS subject, joining those beheading Christians and Jews! Islam was begun by a self appointed very low esteemed Muslim, [Muhammad]. following after Ismael as the Muslims left the One True Gods bible teaching after the first few chapters of the book of Genesis. Satan gave the words to write deceiving Muhammad, telling his name was Gabriel. He started the Crusades by murdering nearly 600 Jews, and attempted suicide on 2 occasions saved by women holding him from leaping to his death. Later was poisoned to a long and painful death by poisoned by a Jewess whose family was murdered by Muhammad. Jesus was resurrected from the dead over 600 years before Islam came into being starting their attempt to create Sharia throughout the world. Jesus isd the ONLY way to salvation by the blood that removes sin. “Islam has no accountability for sin!” Allah is a created god that Muhammad made up to back up his false sayings he wrote in his book as his followers complained that it contradicted itself– so he needed a back up. In the bible, Romans Ch. 13: tells that the Jews are forever and will never cease from being! Where is Muhammad and allah mentioned in the last days? With Satan in judgement if they aren’t redeemed by Jesus Christ! Truth will set you free– Satan is the father of Lies and for the reason Hell was created after the earth was formed by God! [not allah] There is no resemblance in the two names or terms!
Dude says
Well how nice. I assume Muhammad Dawood is also participating in similar panel at the local mosque? You know, “making an effort to increase understanding and foster dialogue between the local Christian and Islam communities”? Or is it only infidels who need to adjust their perspectives?
elizabeth says
Contribute to the comments section of this youtube — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWoGWf3l_r4 — “Understanding Islam Programs Look To Open Dialogue In Las Cruces “
sham says
“And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.” (Qur’an 3:85)
“And fight them until there is no fitnah and the religion, all of it, is for Allah.” (Qur’an 8:39)
Quran 8:39 – “And fight with them until there is no more fitna and religion should be only for Allah”
Let’s read a better translation for Q. 8:39,
Pickthall Quran 8:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
The ‘fitna’ mentioned in the above verse (Q 8:39) means persecution, oppression, as shown by Pickthall’s Quran translation. When the verse says, “And fight with them until there is no more fitna”, it gave Muslims permission to fight until there is no more persecution (fitna), 1400 years ago. Critics elude to this passage claiming that the Arabic word ‘fitna’ used here does not really mean ‘persecution’ or ‘oppression’, according to these self-made scholars who have no formal education on Islam, to them the word ‘fitna’ means ‘unbelief’. When it is used in that sense, they’re trying to portray the verse to non-Muslims who don’t know the Arabic language that the passage sanctions Muslims to fight non-believers on account of them of being non-Muslim. However, when we consult Arabic-English dictionaries critics’ deception is exposed. In the following article which can be seen here, I have provided many Muslim and non-Muslim scholarly evidences that the Arabic word ‘fitna’ means, ‘persecution’, ‘oppression’.
Non-Muslim Quran Translations for 8:39
Arthur John Arberry Quran 8:39 Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely; then if they give over, surely God sees the things they do…
George Sale Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to God. But if they desist, then surely God is Watchful of what they do.
Qur’an Commentaries
Muhammad Asad:
“39 I.e., until man is free to worship God. Cf. the identical phrase in 2:193, and the corresponding note. Both these passages stress self-defence – in the widest sense of this word – as the only justification of war.” [1]
The Holy Qur’an Arabic Text With English Translation & Short Commentary – Malik Ghulam Farid:
“1120. Muslims were enjoined to fight till religious persecution had ceased and men were free to practice the religion of their choice. Islam undoubtedly is the greatest upholder of freedom of conscience (2:194).” [2]
The Holy Quran Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction – Maulana Muhammad Ali:
“39a That is, desist from fighting and put an end to their mischief, God’s decree of punishment will not be executed. God sees what men do, and if they mend their ways, He will not punish them. The state of religious liberty which Islam aimed at is put tersely in the two opening statements – ‘there is no more persecution and all religions are for Allah’.
40a. If they return to fight, then Allah will protect the Muslim community, helping them against their enemy, as He is their Patron and Helper.” [3]
References:
[1] The Message of The Quran Translated And explained by Muhammad Asad
[2] The Holy Qur’an Arabic Text With English Translation & Short Commentary By Malik Ghulam Farid, page 366
[3] The Holy Quran Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction [Year 2002 Edition] by Maulana Muhammad Ali, page 385
Fithna: protection from the enemy from their oppression/problems /terrorism/vilonce/ trial
10:85 They said: “In Allah we put our trust. Our Lord! Make us not a trial for the folk who are wrongdoers.
10:86 “And save us by Your mercy from the disbelieving folk.”
8:25 And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.
Fithna: protection of family, property, children and neighbors
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 216
Fithna: killing & captive innocent people:
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 215
Fithna forced conversion of Muslim to kufar:
(2:217) They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, “Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.”
Wellington says
Yet more parsing ad nauseam. Meanwhile, Muslims worldwide keep slaughtering or support the slaughtering of human beings in the name of Islam. What other religion regularly has to tell the world that it is tolerant, peaceful, noble, etc. and that a particular verse really, really means THIS instead of THAT all the while terrorists attacks in the name of that religion keep mounting up (over 28,000 just since 9/11)?
Don’t you get it? More and more people are becoming utterly sick to death of this crap by people like you. They don’t give a damn about the parsing anymore as the body count keeps mounting up. And while you’re at it, why not parse Sura 60:4 or Sura 98:6 or Sura 5:33 or Sura 9:5 or Sura 8:60 or….. or….. or…..
The Koran oozes hatred towards the non-believer on almost every page. It is a sick, disgusting, repulsive religious work if ever there were one. It is both a war manual and a hate manual. There is nothing noble or divinely inspired about it. It is evil. Wake up and learn this.
boakai ngombu says
sham, you are what you seem: a sham, a pretense, unable to produce what is promised…
and your hardly holy writings – as you have brought them forward – do not tell of all that Yahweh (the God of Abraham) – would do. they do not speak of all that Yahweh would do for you. these writings produce deadness and bare a stench, leaving you without wisdom of righteous ways yet you presume to teach.
you are like the MB rep mentioned above, Dawood, engineer, truly attempting to deceive and lie in order to make a place for others like you and he, slaves (Muslims) of the allah god of islam (unknowable; the best of all deceivers). it is a master of confusion and ruination.
Carolyne says
OH Sham. You’re so funny.
Christopher Navage says
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/
Anyone who seriously desires a scholarly, peer-reviewed translation of the Qur’an (in fact, three of them) can start at the University of Southern California at the link above.
Sham, of course, and true followers of Muhhamad cannot acknowledge the dissemination of the various historical and philosophical aspects as performed by doctoral-level scholars as this is viewed as a ‘sin of an apostate’ by his ‘religion,’ which is actually a cover for misogyny, pedophilia and murder by uneducated rapists stuck in the 13 century, who also want the rest of us to be stuck there.
celticwarriorcanada says
What Protestants like this Lutheran Pastor seem to forget is that if European Catholics had not kept the Ottomans out of Europe there Probably would not have been a Reformation of The Church and of European Society as a whole. If these Ecclesiastical Leaders spent as much time Expounding the Glory and Majesty of the Holy Trinity , The Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Incompatibility of The Judaeo Christian worldview with the Islamic worldview, as they do Sucking Up and trying to Win their respect or appease them; their congregations would be much better Equipped to deal with The Problem !
Champ says
“What I learned here today that I did not understand at all about Islam or the Muslims is that they really respect all nations, and believe that it’s OK to have many religions,” said Carol Peterson, a participant from Peace Lutheran, speaking after the February event. “They believe that basically there’s one God. I was under the impression that Muslims wanted all of us to be one, wanted us to be like they are. But they respect us. I didn’t know that, and that blew my mind — because I thought that was the purpose of all this turmoil in our world. I thought they wanted us to become Muslim.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The message from this classic poem is certainly apropos …
https://youtu.be/-EJDP6va9uc
Debi Brand says
Reminiscent of Trump’s oft-read beautiful snake poem.
Cecilia Ellis says
Champ, thanks for posting a most appropriate video. Though I posted the following on another thread, I think you will like it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=G1RieIRFqN0
Pere LaChaise says
Pastor Jared Carson’s Peace Lutheran Church is in Las Cruces, NM, not the town south of Lompoc on the Southern California. I looked it up handily.
Ice Star says
To get the right answers you need to.ask the right questions.
Isn’t it true Mohamed abrogated the peaceful Mecca suras ?
Isn’t it true that Mohammed’s final command to his followers was to spread Islam by the sword until Allah is the only deity worshiped and Sharia is the only law of the land?
Isn’t it true that Mohamed said, ” If he leaves Islam, kill him.”
Isn’t it true that Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac and NOT Ishmael”?
Isn’t it true Hagar and Ishmael were banished and all ties to Abraham severed?
Isn’t it true that Christians and Jews have their books and religion correct and it. Was Mohamed who tells a very different story?
Isn’t lying and deception in line with Islamic teaching as long as it advances Islam?
MJ says
NO, NO, NO!!! WRONG!!! We do NOT need to understand the Muslims and their ideals to get any more of a hold on OUR American values!!! THERE IS NO OTHER “RELIGION” ON THE PLANET THAT KILLS PPL SIMPLY BC THEY DON’T BELIEVE THE WAY THEIR “RELIGION” DOES!!!!
MonicaPhD says
It looks like you aren’t familiar with American history….the Inquisition murdered thousands of Native Americans and other people who weren’t falling in line with Christianity. Read a book and learn your history before you spew out such hatred and lies. It wouldn’t kill you to get step away from the internet and pursue an education….or would it?
Carolyne says
I believe the “Inquisition” took place in Spain. I am aware of no American Inquisition.
What is your PhD in? Basket weaving?
heidi says
and the inquisition focused on heresy among Catholics,Moors and Jews were excluded. additionally they were not acting out of a religious commandment from god as muslims do, but out of honest economic power- and- control man made greed–perhaps why it died out while islamic torture/ oppression continues to exist
Charli main says
I look forward to reading about the ” understanding Christianity ” day, that the local Muslim community will be holding in their local mosque.
heidi says
LOL! with warning signs outside saying,”please leave your head at the door”!
Kepha says
Nobody preached more forcibly than Martin Luther on the need for Christ’s atoning death on the cross and that he thereby won salvation for us. Nobody preached more forcibly that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate than Luther. Well, maybe Zwingli, Calvin, Knox and their disciples hammered away at these themes–anathema, btw, to Islam–just as hard if not harder.
Unfortunately, the leaders of most of the [rapidly aging] “mainstream” churches know only sociology and the criticisms of Christianity’s cultured despisers while being ignorant of both traditional theology and Bible. Hence, I’m pretty sure that nobody at these “dialogues” ever asks about the deity and eternality of Christ; challenges the astonishingly ignorant view that the Paraclete of John is Muhammad rather than the Holy Spirit; raises the necessity of the cross, the reality of Jesus’ death thereon, and the resurrection as prelude to Jesus’ ascension; nor will you hear anyone affirming the finality of the New Testament revelation. In short, the poor Muslims never get to hear what Christianity truly is and leave as short of saving knowledge as when they entered.
I will quibble with calif.ray. God separates sinners from their sins every time he saves sinners–and those are the only people who get saved (there is none righteous save God alone). As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us (Ps. 103:12). For thou has cast all my sins behind thy back (Is. 38:17), Hezekiah prayed. I[God], even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake; and I will not remember thy sins (Is. 43:25). So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many…[Heb. 9:28]. …who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree (I Pet. 2:24). Of course we bit by bit die to sin and live to righteousness. But as long as we are on this side of glory, we are, in Luther’s words, simul justus et peccator (both righteous and a sinner). And think of those of whom the Son of God is not ashamed to be named a brother (Heb. 2:11)–those miscegenators, fallen women, incestuous fathers-in-law, lustful and conspiratorial kings, and even dissimulating Abram mentioned in Matthew 1; to say nothing of you and me. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten (sharing the same divine nature) Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Who are those in the world whom he loves? Are they not all sinners, the children of Adam the First conceived by ordinary generation? Christ came precisely to separate sinners and sins.
Carolyne says
Whose love is given over-well
May gaze on Helen’s face in hell.
While those whose love is thin and wise
May view John Knox in Paradise.
somehistory says
Abraham was father to Isaac. Isaac was father to Jacob who became Israel. Abraham was as much a *Jew* as was Israel, whatever he was called. the Hebrew line of people came from Abraham, from Abraham’s father and that cannot be changed by lies and twisting of history.
moslims are made of stuff and nonsense and full of evil to boot. Lie and steal…lying about Abraham and attempting to steal a history and ancestry that to them does not, cannot, belong.
CogitoErgoSum says
Who was it that started the nonsense about Islam having been hijacked by terrorists? Every time I hear someone repeat that lie my blood begins to boil as I think about the hijacking of Christianity and Judaism that took place about 1400 years ago by a terrorist named Muhammad.
Debi Brand says
Indeed.
As provided in the following: http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2016/01/fools-standing-in-defense-of-islam.html
Baucent says
“What I learned here today that I did not understand at all about Islam or the Muslims is that they really respect all nations, and believe that it’s OK to have many religions,” said Carol Peterson, a participant from Peace Lutheran, speaking after the February event.”
Really? I wonder if she can quote Koranic verses that idea comes from.
Bishop says
Who are you people?
Debi Brand says
Who are these people?
” … fools–hard at … [their] laboring to shape today’s children into ‘tomorrow’s’ tailor-made Muslims or subjects of the same.”
Read more: http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2016/01/fools-standing-in-defense-of-islam.html
Reply
Debi Brand says
http://islamexposed.blogspot.com/2016/01/fools-standing-in-defense-of-islam.html
Carlos Danger says
Pay more attention to what folks do than to what they say.
By their fruits shall ye know them.
Dean says
Some smart Arab tribal chiefs appropriated the power of monotheism to enthrone their tribal beliefs and prejudices and thoroughly codify it as law as well as claim ancestral heritage as proof. In response, modern relativist multi-cultural Christians find cause to approve. They are simply idiots.
Kathy Brown, Esq. says
The muslim guy ‘hosting’ this sick event is Muhammad Dawood, aka ‘David Hicks’. He is a convicted jihadist. A terrorist. He MET Bin Laden, who asked him to translate jihadist texts into English. Dawood obliged. This criminal served time at GITMO. He pled guilty to terrorism and served time for that, too.
The Facebook page of ‘Peace Lutheran Church’ is crammed with 2 things: 1. Lesbian-Gay propoganda which supposedly ‘comports with the teachings of Jesus Christ and 3. This INCREDIBLE ‘muslim outreach’ event.
I posted the aforementioned on this ‘Church’s’ (!?) Facebook page. Can’t wait to see their response.
Kathy Brown, Esq. says
CORRECTION!
There are apparently TWO ‘Muhammad Dawood(s)’.
This is the ‘Muhammad Dawood’ who is a professor at NMSU. The post I wrote is about the other ‘Muhammad Dawood’, who is in fact all I posted.
I apologize for the inaccuracy. However: Given the complete idiocy of ‘Peace Lutheran Church’, I have no doubt they would have booked the terrorist, had he been available on the lecture circuit. For all I know, he is.
Karen says
“We are not really scholars of theology, we’re just regular common folks explaining the way we understand it,” Dawood said. “………. As Muslims in the U.S., we’ll go into the way it’s impacting us.”…
I imagine some problems might arise when a non-theologian teaches theology, “the way he understands it”. Of course it gives him all kinds of latitude to teach as truth whatever dreamy concepts he’s cooked up in his head.
Too bad Mr. Dawood won’t be discussing how Lutherans, or any religious minority, are treated by the Islamic majority in his native Pakistan, a place particularly vicious to non-Muslims. That might open a few eyes of these sadly deluded Lutherans.
Dwight says
The ELCA has become a cult of exChristians.
Everything you need to know about Islam is written I the Quran.
Here is a video of the real Islam… http://youtu.be/G1RieIRFqN0
+Blessings and Peace upon those who do their own research about Islam.
Do not be fooled by da’wa or taquiyya as preached by imams.