A refreshing and highly unusual moment of truth on Saudi TV. ” We must admit that they are present everywhere, that their nationality is Arab, and that they adhere to the religion of Islam. We must acknowledge that we are the ones who gave birth to them, and who have made them memorize the teachings of all the Salafi books. We must admit that it is the schools and universities that we established that told them the others are infidels.” You can’t even say that on American TV.
“Saudi TV Host Nadine Al-Budair Takes to Task Apologists Who Claim Terrorists Have Nothing to Do with Islam and the Muslims: They Emerged from Our Schools and Universities,” MEMRI, April 3, 2016:
Saudi journalist and TV host Nadine Al-Budair recently criticized the “hypocrites” who say that the terrorists “do not represent Islam or the Muslims.” After the abominable Brussels bombings, it’s time for us to feel shame and to stop acting as if the terrorists are a rarity,” she said, in an address that aired on the Saudi Rotana Khalijiyah TV on April 3. “Why do we shed our own conscience?” she asked. “Don’t these perpetrators emerge from our environment?”
Following are excerpts
Nadine Al-Budair: Whenever terrorism massacres peaceful civilians, the smart alecks and the hypocrites vie with one another in saying that these people do not represent Islam or the Muslims. Perhaps one of them could tell us who does represent Islam and the Muslims.
We witness people competing in an attempt to be the first to prove that everything that is happening has nothing to do with the Muslims, and that the terrorists are highway robbers and homeless alcoholics and drug addicts. We all know that the number of the homeless in Europe is very high. They sleep in the streets and beg for alms, and some of them are alcoholics or drug addicts, but we do not expect these addicts or criminals to even consider coming here and blowing up a mosque or a street in our city. It is we who blow ourselves up. It is we who blow up others.
Why do we shed our own conscience? Why do the sheikhs, the pundits, the journalists, and all the Arab officials insist upon [not] using their conscience when they point to the perpetrators? Don’t these perpetrators emerge from our environment? Don’t their families belong to our society? Didn’t anyone you know – someone from your city, a neighbor, someone from your street, a relative, a nephew, a grandson, a father, or a mother – go to Syria or Iraq to wage Jihad?
After the abominable Brussels bombings, it’s time for us to feel shame and to stop acting as if the terrorists are a rarity. We must admit that they are present everywhere, that their nationality is Arab, and that they adhere to the religion of Islam. We must acknowledge that we are the ones who gave birth to them, and who have made them memorize the teachings of all the Salafi books. We must admit that it is the schools and universities that we established that told them the others are infidels.
We must admit that we all – our different sects and faiths, the Sunnis and the Shia – adhere to one school and one school only: the “freezing of the mind” school. Don’t ask! Don’t think! Don’t resist orders! Welcome to the Arab Mashriq.
We should acknowledge that it is our religious upbringing that has driven these youth away from the Quran, and has drawn them closer to its interpreters, to the point that a Muslim now has 1,000 holy books, from which he draws fatwas and information, whereas the Quran has been made intellectually inaccessible.
To many of the terrorists, it is all too accessible.
What makes us laugh and cry at the same time is that the people who spilled the blood walk at the dead man’s funeral and cry. The people who encouraged the terrorists, invented fatwas for them, and called to support their false rights in Syria, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in the Philippines, in Morocco, in America, in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in Lebanon, in Africa – and the list is endless, with the last incident taking place in Europe…
Now the old supporters (of terrorism) have the audacity to declare that they denounce bombings everywhere, and that the killing of civilians constitutes an attack on the religion. Where are the sheikhs of yesterday? Why don’t they have the courage to declare that they are the ones who said that Jihad is obligatory, and who legalized political wars, using futile and disgraceful exegeses, which permit killing, enslavement, and destruction?
PRCS says
“made them memorize the teachings of all the Salafi books”
All the Salafi books?
And what books might those be?
Qur’an?
Ahadith?
Sir’ah?
mortimer says
All the Salafite books you mention are printed in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. All the Saudi schools teach that Muslims must hate disbelievers.
So is Saudi Arabia repenting for teaching pure Islam? What is this? Some kind of trick?
It smells funny.
ECAW says
Indeed, it was all going so well until she hit this bum note:
“We should acknowledge that it is our religious upbringing that has driven these youth away from the Quran”.
Karen says
Exactly. She was interesting until she provided cover for the Koran, the basis for all those commentaries.
maghan says
Of course, she to say that to CHA, else chop-chop square or 1,000 lashes. Poor girl, she had to lie to CHA.
Bee says
My thoughts exactly. Doesn’t smell right as during my time in Saudi no woman would ever be permitted, to appear without the hijab on her head, and definitely no exposure of her neck. Fooling the infidel is in play here.
Michael LaForty says
Hey Robert. Im a big fan. Just wondering how this woman can say this on Saudi tv and not be stoned to death. She isn’t even wearing a burqa,but looks totally modern and western.Is this station really not in Saudi Arabia or am i missing something here.And how can she as a woman be so opinionated in such a brutal anti woman society.Thx.
Jack Diamond says
She is living in Qatar. She broadcasts on the Rotana t.v. network (primarily owned by Saudi Prince Al-waleed; Fox and News corp -Murdoch- own shares). In 2009 she stirred up trouble publishing a satire (and condemnation) of polygamy “I Too Have the Right To Take Four Husbands” that led some Saudi clerics to want to put her on trial. Her statement about Islam hatching terrorists is much like al-Sisi’s famous speech, calling on Muslims to take responsibility and even feel shame, while, of course, exonerating the Qur’an and Muhammad from any blame. A fallback position intellectually indefensible but necessary to preserve life and limb. That it is earth shattering for a Muslim (other than ISIS) to publicly hold Islam and Muslims responsible for its Jihad doctrines (and its cruel oppression of women) shows how little we’ve come to expect from them.
VRWC member77 says
Michael,
I was thinking the same thing……..Jack, thanks for the explanation.
mortimer says
Thanks for that, Jack. This sort of open criticism from within Islamdom has never happened.
How many years do you give the Islamic prison until its walls fall down?
firefoxhits says
It is strange indeed.
Sounds like the “dam truth” is starting to leak!
Regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that Islam remains an eternal scourge and threat to the world, followed immediately behind by every liberal politician.
Both need to be contained and/or eliminated because neither is likely to reform.
Mark Swan says
Is there freedom of the press there?
She claims the same old nonsense that people are taking their own wrong views
of the Quran instead of from the book itself.
What the (book itself)…QURAN CONTAINS IS THE PROBLEM.
ISIS follows the Quran literally, which is supported by all Islam followers as a whole.
Until We see Muslims anywhere condemn the Quran and all Islamic writing based on it, there is not an iota of new thinking taking place.
This ploy is intended for propaganda purpose.
Karen says
I think you must be right….seems like window dressing. Her commentary is so vaguely written to avoid ‘naming names’ that it costs her almost nothing, while giving her a bit of a progressive halo. While also protecting the book that is the inspiration for all those Salafi texts. Pointless.
Lioness says
Not pointless, very courageous of her to make such statements and to even utter some of the words in public. She has to be somewhat guarded as to not risk her life. I am sure that there are those who would love to stone her to death if only for not wearing a burqua and for being educated.
Mark Swan says
What Is Stopping Them From Stoning Her.
This propaganda can only be effective if it helps us forget the source.
New sales pitch same product.
Angemon says
Citation needed.
The implication being that there’s “bad” islam and a “good” islam, and that the “good” islam can be found in the quran. Not falling for that. Plus, those 1,000 holy books? They wouldn’t happen to be ahadith and commentaries on the quran, explaining how and why each verse was “revealed”, would they?
afrostreetwise says
“The implication being that there’s “bad” islam and a “good” islam, and that the “good” islam can be found in the quran. Not falling for that. Plus, those 1,000 holy books? They wouldn’t happen to be ahadith and commentaries on the quran, explaining how and why each verse was “revealed”, would they?”
Angemon, with respect I think she has done quite very well considering she is doing that from Saudia and I believe that lament about Quran being inaccessible was a very smart political move meant to wriggle her out of trouble when the religious cops comes calling. She has a beautiful neck.
Angemon says
Yeah, could very well be.
afrostreetwise says
Something in my heart tells me Islam as a religion is an en extremely sharp decline. A few observations:
1. During my Son’s graduation in an elementary private, overwhelming christian school here Nairobi, the overall top two pupils in C.R.E (yes! christian religious education) were burka clad Muslim girls. That in a population of approximately 120 pupils. Glad to report nothing bad ever became of them.
2. I have noticed whenever people insult Islam in our local media internet sites after attacks such as the Belgium or Saudi worker mistreatment, defenders of Islam are getting few by the day and very few have the militancy they used to have.
3. The above story by R .Spencer speaks volumes about Saudi’s citizens frustration and are about to explode. Just remember, they behead people for criticism of Islam and you can see the courage of this T.V host.
God bless her for always..
Draki says
Hope she stays safe
LB says
A rare instance of bravery in the subjugated Middle East. However, according to Sharia law of criticizing Islam, mr. Nadine Al-Budair has just signed his own death sentence. Look for him to be arrested and sentenced to beheading withing next few weeks. I hope something will be done to prevent that, like human rights orgs or Saudi citizens stepping up against the Sharia oppression, but chances for that are pretty much non-existent…
LB says
Whoops! My bad. It’s actually ms./mrs. Nadine Al-Budair. And the fact that she is a woman, stepping up is actually a much braver act given how horrible women in Middle East (and Islam in general) are treated. I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that no harm comes to her.
linnte says
Someone needs to send this gal a set of brass kohones! Prayers for her beautiful neck and prayers for a hopeful awakening in her heart.
Baucent says
Refreshing clarity form a muslim. Much we can agree with. But this statement shows she has an imperfect understanding;
“We should acknowledge that it is our religious upbringing that has driven these youth away from the Quran,”…
What she doesn’t seem to realise is that the Koran has ample verses promoting jihad and attacks on infidels. Or maybe she knows but realises to say that would be sticking her neck out too far.
Matthieu Baudin says
“…Saudi journalist and TV host Nadine Al-Budair recently criticized the “hypocrites” who say that the terrorists “do not represent Islam or the Muslims…”
I expect this makes Barrack Obama and his ilk ‘friends’ or ‘allies’ of hypocrites, as they go to such great lengths to spread the same misinformation and denials that Madame Nadine has highlighted. To think that she can take this plunge into reality on Saudi television, while our political leaders hide under the table at the mere hint of scorn from the P.C. establishment.
Peggy says
Hell must’ve frozen over. A Muslim woman in ME can say all this but we can’t in our “democratic” west.
mortimer says
Our Western elites are unread, and yet, arrogant about protecting Islam. Western elites use ‘voluntary restraint’ so their offices building won’t get blown apart by the terrorists.
mortimer says
Is the Kingdom of Islam crumbling? I can’t believe this monologue. What’s going on?
Is Saudi TV Host Nadine Al-Budair going to be killed for this?
The cognitive dissonance of Muslims is starting to sizzle, crack, sputter and maybe explode and then blow apart!
Larz says
total scam I hope Iran blows them up before they get nuked to hell
Mark Swan says
Yep
Malcolm Jackson says
Don’t take this at face value. The evil cult of Islam has been using these sort of tricks for the passed 1,400 years to con the non-muslims. If she said this in Saudi Arabia without being part of the Sunni jihad, she would now be in prison waiting either stoning to death or beheading. Got to be a con trick.
Sibila says
Couldn’t agree more, Malcolm Jackson. She doesn’t look suicidal at all. This is all a farce, OR at least one of Saudi thousand princes covering her and supporting hers and his very private banned opinion on an issue. But more likely this is all planned and in control both to test and teach the domestic local growing uproars (watch for the reactions) and to at least articulate something in front of the world community underlying (home and away) Quran and its teachings are to remain untouched.
BTW one swallow doesn’t mean spring.
D says
Madam I applaud your courage. I pray you survive what is to come.
John Johness says
Lets get a bit real about this. First ISIS and Al Qaeda want the exterminate the Saudi tribe. They have stated this innumerable times and acted upon it. Last few days have seen attacks in Saudi Arabia by ISIS. Their version of Wahhabism is different from the Saudi one.
Second ISIS ( and Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood) want to take Mecca. If they do then every Sunni Muslim will be part of the ISIS Caliphate – including the guy who cleans your streets, security checks you at your airport and sells you milk in the morning.
In other words as much as you may dislike Saudi Arabia, the ruling elite are stopping ISIS in their plan. If USA does to Saudis what happened to Gaddafi and Hussein then we are in for a bigger disaster than you can image. EVERY Sunni Muslim will be our enemy. Think of what happened in India during 1947. You will have enemies in your very neighborhood.
Be careful about lumping Saudi Arabia ruling family into the ISIS bag. They are needed to keep the real fanatics from destroying all of us.
ECAW says
Some high up imam in SA did affirm that Saudi and ISIS versions of Islam are more or less the same, can’t give you a source for that but I’m sure I saw it here a while ago. As far as I can make out their main difference is that ISIS do not think you can have kings between Allah and the ummah whereas SA do. That’s enough in itself to sour relations of course. Don’t know whether SA share ISIS’s crazy eschatology thing.
Alexandra Pierce says
Mr, Johness, we already have enemies in our neighborhoods thanks to the SA’s peddling of Islamist ideology. I don’t know why you think the Sauds are acting as some great bulwark against a Jihad tide; they’re some of the greatest perpetrators, as the lady said.
vcragain says
I will be looking out for her demise – she will most likely be bumped off shortly ! This would seem to be the ONLY voice of reason coming out of Islamic states anywhere – and Saudi Arabia – wow !!!!
Alexandra Pierce says
While watching this, I knew what to expect upon scrolling down to the comments: “This is great, but when she said, ‘We should acknowledge that it is our religious upbringing that has driven these youth away from the Quran’ I knew she was spouting taqiyya'” and “this is just more Islamic deception” and “Either she’s lying or she doesn’t know that her religion can only ever stand for medieval barbarity.” My expectations were fulfilled.
Unlike Robert Spencer and many commenters, however, I was not surprised by the source and content of her opinion. Thanks to the work of secular-minded Muslim reformers and the scholars who back them, more and more Muslims are embracing modern, unorthodox interpretations of Islam, and it was only a matter of time (and not much of it) before we started hearing it from people in the gulf states, especially after Sisi helped kick open the doors of Ijtihad with his admonishments of Al Azhar. It isn’t easy, to put it mildly, to combat the petro-funded theology of Islamism and its medievalist cohorts, but it’s happening – in India, the US, Canada, Europe, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. Secular interpretations are starting to find footholds, and I wish Jihad Watch and the rest of the Horowitz network would take a lesson from the Clarion Project and acknowledge that such reform isn’t just possible in Islam, but achievable. For the sake of their readers, I also wish they’d start to highlight the difference between reformers and deceptive, Islamist apologists.
ECAW says
How do you reform a religion which its god declared perfect 1400 years ago?
Alexandra Pierce says
Ask the Jews. They reformed a much older, supposedly perfect religion without any new prophet, “New Testament” or any other “revelations” and managed to find a secular way of life without having to abandon their Hebrew heritage, even though Judaism’s foundational texts are very bit as bad, and sometimes worse, than the Quran (which is cribbed largely from the Old and New Testaments).
Mark Swan says
Your Comments are very disingenuous, with regard to Islamic reformation.
You certainly imply that the Christian Bible is comparable with the Quran.
This secular humanism pabulum will not severve you well.
Alexandra Pierce says
Mr. Swan,
Your comment is very disingenuous, period.
I certainly imply that much of the Quran is cribbed from the Bible, yes. Hell, even Robert Spencer will ya that.
Your evangelism won’t serve you very well when it comes to this topic.Thank you for commenting.
Mark Swan says
You read my comment to your Atheistic evangelizing below and
popped back here to look slick…Yep we can all tell time.
Your evangelism won’t serve you very well when it comes to this topic.
Alexandra Pierce says
Mr. Swan,
You’re being awfully presumptuous, and wrong in the process. I’ve been writing a reply to someone else, occasionally playing a Facebook game, watching a really disturbing video of poor Pam Geller at Brooklyn College, occasionally refreshing various tabs and generally not paying attention to when which people are writing which things to me on this thread, which is why my reply to you comes at a time you apparently find suspicious.
Are you always this paranoid?
ECAW says
Alexandra – Your equating of Judaism and Islam in the matter of perfection is wrong. You refer to Judaism as a “supposedly perfect religion”. Who supposed it and at what point in its very long evolution?
On the other hand Allah said “This day I have perfected for you your religion” (Koran 5:3) and not just through various individuals with varying claims to divine inspiration but speaking directly to Mohammed through the hotline provided by Gabriel.
What was going on in Arabia on the day that Allah perfected the Muslims’ religion? Well, since sura 5 is reckoned to be either the penultimate or the last substantive sura, the perfected version of Islam must include the “fighting in Allah’s way” that Mohammed was concentrating on at the end of his career. By this time he had written to the various neighbouring kings, and even emperors, informing them that if they knew what was good for them they would convert without delay. He was already planning his move out of Arabia by attacking Byzantine Syria, thus taking his ambitions international, a project carried on by those who presumably knew his intentions best, his companions. and carried on today by the various jihadi groups who have a credible claim to have already reformed Islam by taking it back to something very like Mohammed’s original version.
Jack Diamond says
It’s not “medieval” barbarity it is barbarity that originates with the founder of Islam in the 7th Century and the “best of Muslims” his Companions and Rightly Guided Caliphs. It is a barbarity whose guide book is called the Qur’an (and the Sunnah or Example of Muhammad). Don’t underplay the problem here of “reform” or imply that pointing this out on the part of JW is somehow obstructing this reform.
Statements like Al-Budair’s or al-Sisi’s are significant. What they are not is kicking open the doors of ijtihad. Blaming all the hate and violence in Islam on Wahhabism or the legal scholars or the scapegoat de jour, is a fallback position to protect the pure reputation of the Qur’an and Muhammad. In what way does it confront, address, reform the poison within the Qur’an or in the example of Muhammad? It ignores them, it pretends they don’t exist, which is why they are “unorthodox interpretations”
Ms. Al-Budair has pictures of Gandhi and Mother Teresa in her Facebook photo album. Great. That is not reforming Islam, it is good public relations. That is not to say she is not sincere or that is just taqiyya or some larger game of Al-Waleed, though Islam does have elaborate doctrines for Muslims “guarding” themselves from more powerful Infidels. Liberal Westernized Muslims in exile are not quite the same as orthodox clerics calling for new interpretations of fixed Islamic teachings. Or do you not understand that Jihad, the “struggle” to remove the obstacles to the spread of Islam, the warfare against non-Muslims to establish Allah’s Law over the earth, is not subject to ijtihad (independent reasoning)?
Jihad is fixed in Islamic law by the consensus of Islamic scholars as a Right of Allah (hukm shari–a communication of God) this is a binding obligation on mankind and that cannot be overruled by men. It is not in the province of Ijtihad, the reasoning of man, to overrule a Right of Allah. Ignoring such things is not reform. It may be self-preservation for some Muslims to reinvent Islam’s public image, to discard the real Jihad and Sharia, to defang Islam before the Infidels, but calling this ijtihad as if the suras of the Qur’an are being addressed and confronted, as if the evil example of Muhammad is being acknowledged, is quite a stretch. Not tolerating Jihad and Sharia in preaching or practice ultimately has to come from infidels who won’t put up with it anymore. That’s a “reform” to hope for.
Alexandra Pierce says
Mr. Diamond,
Thank you for a mostly fair and reasoned response. I disagree that current Islamic reformers don’t “confront” the actual texts. They do (see my reply below to Wellington for a few basic ways the emulation of Muhammad can be confronted, for example). They even confront -without the sugary obfuscations employed by Islamists- the nature of Jihad and how it can be interpreted non-theocratically. That’s why I don’t hesitate to use the term ijtihad. A good place to start would be with the works of Dr. Usama Hasan of Quilliam, but there are plenty of others at the end of a cursory google search.
There is nothing permanently “fixed” about JIhad’s interpretation because there is no official seminary of Islam, and a consensus can shift. Also, very few reformers single out Wahhabis and Salafists as the sole offenders. They tackle broad, cross-cultural, cross-denominational Islamism – the desire to impose any version of Islam over society, and medievalists. And this concept of Islamism goes back to the beginnings of Islam, when Muslims called those who wanted Islamic theocracy were called Islamowee ( اسلاموي ).
And I don’t make my comments about JW lightly. I’m a longtime JW reader. Heck, I even read “The Truth About Muhammad” before Spencer was blackballed by the FBI, before I even heard of JW. He’s a fantastic scholar and tireless champion of free speech and criticism of Islam and I support that. And since he is a man of intellectual honesty, he’s always sure to say things like “mainstram” or “common” when describing interpretations of Islamic texts and teachings. He’s even quite clear about why these Islamist teachings have spread so much in recent decades (petro-funded propaganda). And, every once in a blue moon, he’ll make some squeak which acknowledges other interpretations are possible. But JW keeps treating reformers as merely Quixotic failures in the making, and in that it really is working for the enemy. The only people I’ve run across who resolutely stand against a possible Islamic reformation are people whose worldview makes them personally invested in keeping Islam the way Islamists have established it. Islamists, of course, are therefore on the forefront of sneering at reform. The next are the devout of other faiths, especially Christians, who are so invested in the superiority of their own faith that they rage against the possibility of Islamic reform with almost as much zeal as Islamists. It is in the latter category that I unfortunately find many commenters at JW, and it’s a shame. Because many of them are smart people who may be able to let go of their prejudices if Spencer and co did a little more to acknowledge that Islam is, indeed, flexible.
Jack Diamond says
I don’t think Obama’s pronouncements about what is Islamic or who is a Jihadist makes the slightest difference to Muslims who might decide to fight in Allah’s cause. Nor do Jihad Watch opinions about the viability of Islamic reformation “work for the enemy.” Your cheerleading isn’t going to make it happen or not happen. Likewise the skepticism toward something happening that hasn’t ever happened is not going to prevent it from happening if so many Muslims want it, as you seem to believe.
Non-Muslims can act quite independent of whether or not Muslims change their belief-system (which has been pointed out, is immutable). To protect themselves and their societies. That is their first duty, not saving the Muslim world from itself, if such a thing were even possible. Deep skepticism about reforming the Qur’an, Sunnah, and schools of Shari’a do not come from some prejudiced ingrained need to believe the worst about Islam, it comes from facing the bitter truth taught by history and experience. Being fools about Islam (look at Europe) can be fatal to your health.
ECAW says
Alexandra – As it happens I did put some effort into examining Usama Hasan’s arguments and found them to be either deceptive or, since I have an absurdly charitable disposition, merely wishful thinking. Here are my workings:
https://ecawblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/examining-quilliams-claims-4/
Jack Diamond says
If Quilliam is the standard of the reform you are talking about, it is DOA.
They are part of the “Islamophobia” crying industry. They cover-up for Islam,
Islam is good, Islam really permits freedom of speech, Islam permits freedom of religion, Islam really likes democracy and equal rights for non-Muslims, Muhammad never called for the death of apostates or declared war on non-Muslims, the “protection” of dhimmitude was benign and is a model for co-existence and tolerance; anything bad in Islam is limited to a limited historical moment (and self-defense) or the result of hijacking by later legalists or today’s “jihadists”. Anyone who questions this marvelous new narrative is an Islamophobe helping the enemy and driving young Muslims into the arms of “extremists.”
Does Quilliam present an honest confrontation and refutation of Jihad doctrine and Islamic supremacism that would convince a pious Muslim quite familiar with the texts?
Or is it for the benefit of the kaffir, a soma to sooth and put their unease about Islam to rest? Rest in peace?
Wellington says
You live in a dream world, Alexandra Pierce. There is no reforming Islam because Islam, alone among the major religions of the world, is a totalitarian ideology and there is no reforming a totalitarian ideology. Might as well try and reform Nazism or Marxism. If you cut all the rot out of Islam there wouldn’t be much left and one knows this or should know it. There is nothing good in Islam that can’t be found elsewhere and yet there is much bad in Islam that is difficult to find anywhere else. So, what’s the damn point of trying to keep any of it around?
Hatred for the non-Muslim can be found on almost every page of the Koran. What do you propose to do about this? To this very day every major school of Islamic theology, Sunni and Shiite, requires death for a Muslim who converts to another religion and severe bodily harm or death for anyone criticizing or mocking Islam, the Koran or Mohammed. What do you propose to change this? Islam was founded by a person who has psychopath and narcissist written all over him and yet he is considered the Model Man by Muslims. What do you propose to do with respect to Mohammed? I assert that your proposal of reforming Islam can’t be done and I also assert that it will always remain a death cult for a certain percentage of Muslims when they don’t get their way.
Alexandra Pierce says
“You live in a dream world, Alexandra Pierce.” Erm, not really. Islamic reformation is hardly my fantasy of how things should go. If I had my ‘druthers, Muslims would realize their religion is BS – and Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would realize the same about their own faiths. But I know better than that. The last thing one should expect religious people to say when you point out how much their texts suck is, “Oh, my goodness. I had no idea my religion sucks so much. Thanks! I’ll leave it right now.” Ah, now that would be a dream world, indeed.
An Islamic renaissance rooted in reformation, not a fantasy mass apostasy, is the only achievable scenario that will end widespread Islamist aggression, and this is hardly “my proposal.” I’m not some lone voice in the wilderness. The number of those working to make it happen is growing, more quickly every year, and is led by Muslims, (of course). Don’t misunderstand – indulging the idea of reformation isn’t a reason to abandon criticism, no, not by any means. It’s partly the criticism that fuels the reformation, after all. But to claim that reformation isn’t possible is dogmatic thinking, to put it kindly.
Does Islam have fewer tools to work with than the other Abrahamic faiths? Yes and no. You cite Muhammad as an example, so I’ll humor it. It’s far from impossible to challenge, within Islam, the idea that he’s the “perfect” example for Muslims to follow. First of all, he’s never been declared as more than human; he’s never been portrayed as being of “divine” origin and that can go a long way in interpretations about the so-called perfection of his example. The few supernatural bits attributed to him are highly debated, to put it mildly, and there are also examples in Islamic texts in which he advised people that he could be wrong sometimes, and that they often knew their business better than he did. The Shahada (declaration of faith) requires that you acknowledge that Muhammad was the final prophet, and that’s all. Nothing about his being perfect. Nothing about his every word being a pearl to be taken literally. There are growing numbers of scholars making cases for this, and also against abrogation of the Mecca verses. And since, most importantly of all, there is no official seminary of Islam, no denomination, no matter how mainstream their interpretations currently are, can claim authority no matter how resolutely they try to assert it.
Mark Swan says
The Church of the Non-Believers
Evangelizing the religion of human reasoning
The master of ceremonies…The Right Reverend Dawkins’ assertion that rank-and-file atheists are far more facile with scripture than rank-and-file Christians” is so laughable and outrageous as to be absurd. A cursory survey of militant, atheist literature from those who are considered its greatest scholars quickly reveals a host of misunderstandings readily apparent to any unbiased observer…He employs his double standard against the Bible in both obvious and pervasive preaching.
The new atheists are quite skilled at parroting critical scholars in the popular media, but give little evidence of having done any real research into the Bible. Their mistakes are so elementary that, if one did not know that some are among the world’s intellectuals, one would simply consider them part of the Pseudo-Scholarship of the un-educated.
Dawkins is perfectly aware that atheism is an ancient doctrine and that little of what he has to say is likely to have changed…His true interlocutors are not the Christians he confronts directly but the wavering nonbelievers or quasi believers among his listeners – potential New Atheists who might be inspired by his example.
The New Atheists will not let us off the hook simply because we are not doctrinaire believers. They condemn not just belief in God but respect for anyone who believes in God. Religion is not only wrong; it is evil…they make the old Evangelical Christians look democratic.
Alexandra Pierce says
Mr. Swan,
Who are you quoting, and why?
Jack Diamond says
Infidels informed about Islam and implementing a real “containment” policy toward the Muslim World (and self-preservation policy for their own) will do more to limit Islamic aggression than waiting for Godot, er, I mean the Islamic Renaissance. And it is a matter of life and death for them.
Muhammad was not only prone to mistakes, he mistook Satan for Allah (the Satanic Verses). But you are quite mistaken about how Muslims are told to understand him as the Seal of the Prophets. He is called al-insan al-kamil, the person who has reached perfection (a man but the perfect man) and uswa hasana, the most excellent example of conduct. The Sunnah is the Example of Muhammad. He is the source of morality, of the halal-haram morality of Islam. No big deal? No seminary of Islam? There is a consensus of Islamic scholars, all Islamic scholars whose opinions carry weight, on all these matters that you think are simply waved away. Feel free to produce those scholars you are talking about who deny all this about Muhammad and just promote Meccan Qur’an over Medinan Qur’an. Are you familiar with Mohammad Taha and his fate? Are there thousands of Tahas’ now sweeping over the Muslim world, leading the masses? Did I miss something?
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision.” Qur’an 33:36. Do you get it? What Muhammad decrees Allah decrees. What Allah decrees Muhammad decrees.
Bukhari even says Muhammad will “intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people.”
4:65 “they can have no Faith until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions and accept (them) with full submission.” Those decisions made by Muhammad presumably include hate and enmity toward disbelievers, their subjugation, conversion or deaths? The rape of captive women? Child marriages? Beheadings? Death for apostates who leave Islam? Oh, and what is the appropriate punishment for those who mock or insult or disrespect Muhammad? Tell us again how he is just a guy to the Muslims and how you can pick or choose what you like about what he says– “do you then believe some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? (those who do) will be consigned to the most grievous suffering.” 2:85
Jack Diamond says
I missed your reply to my reply before I made this reply.
Alexandra Pierce says
“I missed your reply to my reply before I made this reply.”
Yeah, well, you better watch your step, Mister! Mark Swan is on to those of us who reply to posts in non-chronological sequence. We’re a pretty sly, nefarious bunch, I tell ya! *cue Psycho strings*
Mark Swan says
Alexandra Pierce You are right, I am sorry I angered You…
I appologize…please forgive me.
Mark Swan says
Excuse Me…
Go ahead with Your reply To Jack Diamond he has some posers there for You.
Wellington says
You asserted nothing that dissuades me, Alexandra Pierce, from my conviction that Islam is not reformable. First of all, you couldn’t name one damn thing in Islam that is good and which cannot be found elsewhere. Moreover, you seem oblivious of the fact that the Koran is always prescriptive while the Bible was never meant to be always prescriptive but often only descriptive. BTW, for the record I am not religious in the least.
As for criticism of Mohammed tolerated by the vast amount of Muslims, good luck with that. Care to name some traits of his that could be criticized? Say his psychopathy, narcissism and pedophiliac tendencies? Mohammed is like no other major religious or ethical founder and has rot written all over him. One knows this or should know it. As John Quincy Adams said of him, “The essence of his doctrine was violence and lust——to exalt the brutal over the spiritual part of mankind.” Mohammed is the odd man out when compared with people like Buddha, Jesus, Zoroaster, Confucius and Lao-Tzu. He was a bad man. The others I named were not.
You also didn’t address how you’re going to separate the political element in Islam from the religious. The two are intertwined as no other major faith remotely demonstrates. How are you going to deal with this?
Well, enough for now. I repeat you live in a dream world where a fantasy version of Islam that you and a small number of others think is possible. It is not. As I wrote before, might as well try and reform Marxism or Nazism as reform Islam. Totalitarian ideologies, you know, must be chucked and not kept around.
Mark Swan says
Wellington
He started off—I felt—very condescending, but I didn’t care about
that so much, as His Implying we except Muslim reform as a matter of
fact and just take His word for that. When I said I felt Him disingenuous
about this, I hoped He would have fleshed it out more to show His point.
It was when He decided to slander all possible personal beliefs, except
His own, I tried to show Him how that felt to many of us, don’t know why
but I did. He then shot back up ignoring Your and Jack’s posers and accused
Me of doing the very thing I had caught Him doing—the evangelizing—which
He did do in a slanderous manner. So the posers You and Jack both had were
very matter of fact and pertinent. Below is what I wanted Him to explain—but.
These reformed Muslims they exist so He is convinced of this.
So He does feel anyone who can read and has read the Quran
and is ok with what is in it, can be something other than Muslim.
Does He expect anyone who is not a Muslim, but has read the
Quran, to understand, how someone who knows what is in the
Quran, can keep Saying they are still a Muslim. (reformed?)
In this age of Islam spreading aggressively, are we going to hope
reformed Muslims, will water down the very essence of Islam which
is about control plane and simple…are we to think the big players
in this are naive and vulnerable, or maybe ok with this—what.
They have been building-up to this time for many decades…they can
work any system better than its originators.
All their ingenuous determined efforts can be archived for historical
purposes once these reformed Muslims have it all under control, I suppose.
Do You feel these simple Muslim followers just need a little nudge
in the right direction and when they think how wonderful life
Is without this cumbersome religion they’ll just relent and
and throw it off completely.
The rest of this world will not be on hold; how long do We
have to give Them, to make this reformation.
What are we to do until this reformation has a positive affect.
Take care Wellington
sham says
“”””””””””‘terrorists “do not represent Islam or the Muslims.” “”””””””””
IDENTITY OF ISLAM: QURAN & SUNNA OF OUR RASOOL(SA)
Malik :: Book 46 : Hadith 46.1.3
Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “I have left two matters with you. As long as you hold to them, you will not go the wrong way. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet.”
PEOPLE MAKING SELF LAW/BID’A PROHIBITED/SELF MAKING HARAM/PERSONAL OPINION
28: 50. But if they answer you not (i.e. do not believe in your doctrine of Islâmic Monotheism, nor follow you), then know that they only follow their own lusts. And who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, without guidance from Allâh? Verily! Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, disobedient to Allâh, and polytheists).
ISLAM DOES NOT LIKE WAR
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 269, 268
Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
The Prophet said, “War is deceit.”
PROPHET(SA) TRIED TO STOPS KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE AS MUCH AS HE CAN POSSIBLE:
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4399
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. Muti’ who heard from his father and said: I heard the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) say on the day of the Conquest of Mecca: No Quraishite will be killed hound hand and foot from this day until the Day of judgment.
PROHIBIT KILLING WITH UNJUST:
3:21. Verily! Those who disbelieve in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and kill the Prophets without right, and kill those men who order just dealings, announce to them a painful torment.
5: 32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.
KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE PROHIBITED:
49: 6. O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.
17:33. and do not kill anyone which Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [(to demand Qisâs, Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islamic law).
KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE IS A SYMBOL OF IGNORANCE [WEAKENS OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE]:
Muslim :: Book 34 : Hadith 6458
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: (When) the time would draw close to the Last Hour, knowledge would be snatched away, turmoil would be rampant, miserliness would be put (in the hearts of the people) and therewould be much bloodshed. They said: What is al-harj? Thereupon he said: It is bloodshed.
sham says
PROHIBITED BLOODSHED:
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 104
……….”Allah and not the people has made Mecca a sanctuary. So anybody who has belief in Allah and the Last Day (i.e. a Muslim) should neither shed blood in it nor cut down its trees. If anybody argues that fighting is allowed in Mecca as Allah’s Apostle did fight (in Mecca), tell him that Allah gave permission to His Apostle, but He did not give it to you. The Prophet added: Allah allowed me only for a few hours on that day (of the conquest) and today (now) its sanctity is the same (valid) as it was before.
PROHIBIT KILLING NON MUSLIM WITH PEACE AGREEMENT:
8: 72. Verily, those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard and fought with their property and their lives in the Cause of Allah as well as those who gave (them) asylum and help, – these are (all) allies to one another. And as to those who believed but did not emigrate (to you O Muhammad SAW), you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate, but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, and Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
KILLING WOMEN/CHILDREN PROHIBITED:
Bukhari 4.52.256
Malik :: Book 21 : Hadith 21.3.10
Do not kill women or children or an aged, weak person,Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees.Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty,
KEEP GOOD RELATION WITH NON MUSLIM
5:2……… And do not let the hatred of a
people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-haram lead
you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety,
but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
JIHAD DECLARE ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO BROKEN THE AGREEMENT/MISCHIEF LAND/TERRORISM/INJUSTICE
22:39. Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers), who are fighting them, (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely, Allâh is Able to give them (believers) victory
60: 9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah).
OPPRESSION AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE PROHIBITED:
7: 33. Say, “My Lord has only forbidden immoralities – what is apparent
of them and what is concealed – and sin, and oppression
Without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which
He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know.”
Muslim :: Book 32 : Hadith 6246
Abu Dharr reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said: My servants, I have made oppression unlawful for Me and unlawful for you, so do not commit oppression against one another. My servants, all of you are liable to err except one whom I guide on the right path, so seek right guidance from Me so that I should direct you to the right path……
PUBLIC PEOPLE(MUSLIM/NON MUSLIM) BLOOD & PROPERTIES, WERE HONORS AND PROTECTED/SACRED LIKE MECCA:
4: 148. Allah does not like that the evil should be uttered in public except by him who has been wronged. And Allah is Ever All Hearer, All Knower.
17: 70. And indeed We have honoured the Children of Adam, and We have carried them on land and sea, and have provided them with At-Taiyibât (lawful good things), and have preferred them above many of those whom We have created with a marked preference.
9: 6. And if anyone of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur’ân), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
7. How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them.
sham says
REVENGE IS PROHIBITED:
5: 8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well Acquainted with what you do.
Muslim :: Book 30 : Hadith 5756
‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah and he never took revenge for anything unless the things made inviolable by Allah were made violable; he then took revenge for Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
FIGHTING BETWEEN SECT PROHIBITED:
8: 46. And obey Allâh and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with one another) lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allâh is with those who are As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.).
Muslim :: Book 39 : Hadith 6752
Jabir reported: I heard Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, the Satan has lost all hopes that the worshippers would ever worship (him) in the peninsula of Arabia, but he (is hopeful) that he would sow the seed of dissension amongst them.
No fight with surrendered warrior:
Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 354
Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin ‘Adi bin Al-Khiyar:
That Al-Miqdad bin ‘Amr Al-Kindi, who was an ally of Bani Zuhra and one of those who fought the battle of Badr together with Allah’s Apostle told him that he said to Allah’s Apostle, “Suppose I met one of the infidels and we fought, and he struck one of my hands with his sword and cut it off and then took refuge in a tree and said, “I surrender to Allah (i.e. I have become a Muslim),’ could I kill him, O Allah’s Apostle, after he had said this?” Allah’s Apostle said, “You should not kill him.” Al-Miqdad said, “O Allah’s Apostle! But he had cut off one of my two hands, and then he had uttered those words?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “You should not kill him, for if you kill him, he would be in your position where you had been before killing him, and you would be in his position where he had been before uttering those words.”
PROPHET SA ORDERED : ISLAM PROHIBITED EVEN KILLING SURRENDER WARRIOR,I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW CAN JUSTIFY KILLING JOURNALIST.
Suicide prohibited: reward of suicide is hell
4: 29. O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.
4: 30. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allah.
39: 53. Say: “O ‘Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 445
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, “Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, ‘If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,’ he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire.” Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”
ISLAM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME TERRORIST ACTION .THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR MONEY,POLITICAL,ECONOMICAL EARNING ,THEY R WORKING FOR SOME WESTERN ORGANISATION AND PEOPLE ,THEY ARE THE OWNER OF THESE TERRORIST.THEIR DREAM EVER GOING TO HAPPENS,ISLAM DOMINATE THE ENTIRE WORLD .
KUFARS EVER WIN OVER MUSLIMS
Jay Boo says
Think about Islam — sham
Really think about it.
Wake up.
Muhammad claimed that Muslim men will receive 72 virgins.
72 VIRGINS?
What does that tell you about Muhammad’s character?
Mark Swan says
Anyone Who Feels Mindless Gibberish Is Worth Repeating…
Has Already Made Their Point.
Champ says
“sham” the taqiyya & spam artist …
https://youtu.be/6F4wBeshTsw
Angemon says
sham posted:
“REVENGE IS PROHIBITED:”
Revenge is mandatory:
quran 2:191:
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.
“ISLAM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME TERRORIST ACTION .THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR MONEY,POLITICAL,ECONOMICAL EARNING ,THEY R WORKING FOR SOME WESTERN ORGANISATION AND PEOPLE ,THEY ARE THE OWNER OF THESE TERRORIST.THEIR DREAM EVER GOING TO HAPPENS,ISLAM DOMINATE THE ENTIRE WORLD .”
No, you paranoid goofball, ISIS, al-qaeda, the taliban, boko haram, etc., all tell us they’re waging jihad for allah and following islamic orthodoxy.
“KUFARS EVER WIN OVER MUSLIMS”
That’s surprisingly factual and honest coming from you – kuffars ever (always) win over muslims.
b.c.terry says
Good for her, well done.
A small step towards contrition.
Truth Seeker says
There is Nothing New. Now Terrorists are killing Muslims. It is nothing but Cleansing Operation. Why Cleansing is Needed? Today Many Muslims have gone away from Real Islam due the Influence of Human Right Philosophy. Whoever gone away are to be sent to Hell Fire.Terrorists are on that Mission. The Terrorists Shout Allahu Akbar, nothing but telling the World, See ‘Allah’s Might’.
Might of God shown by other Religions is exhibited through Performing Miracles, whereas here it is Massacring of Innocents for the Reward of Jannah.
Many Politicians and other leaders say, ‘Islam is not Terror’ for Political Reasons and Compulsions. Abettors also Condemn Terrorism, though might be feeling Proud Internally.
Amir Dewana says
Regarding the religion of Islam in the unsecularized moslem world, someone like Ms Nadine al Budair has always been a rarity. Auto-criticism or self-criticism is something its followers has always been lacking for more than a thousand years.
If many of them follow her footpath, this can become a step forward toward enlightenment. In the past, and maybe up to this very day, dissenting opinion might result in anyone expressing dissent exterminated or killed by the mainstream other.
I do appreciate Ms Nadine’s courage given her country’s ultra-orthodox conservativeness. However, please allow me to diagree with her statement that reads,
“We should acknowledge that it is our religious upbringing that has driven these youth away from the Quran”.
Are all the contents of the Quran word by word teach its moslem readers love for and compassion toward their non-moslem neighbours or fellowcountrymen? If the answer is ‘not all of them’, then they should disregard or discard the evil ones. There has never been a Marthin Luther in Islam
Is the world happy with the Saudi Arabian form of Islam? Is the world happy with unIslamic Japan?
Amir Dewana says
RECTIFICATION: ……… might result in anyone expressing dissent being exterminated or killed by the mainstream ultra-conservative other.
Amir Dewana says
I’ll pray to Jesus our merciful God for Ms Nadine’s safety and well-being.
QuiCreva says
If this woman is legitimate, then I laud her bravery. Still, as many other commentators have pointed out, she insists on playing the old “moderate Muslim” game of attempting to condemn Muslim terrorists while protecting the Qur’an and Muhammad from any blame. Talk about cognitive dissonance! The contents of the Qur’an and the example of Muhammad are the ultimate sources of Muslim terrorism. “Bad” interpretations of Islam are merely secondary causes of this violence. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. So long as Muslims try to distance themselves from Islamic terrorism while protecting the Qur’an and Muhammad, the violence will continue. The Qur’an is full of hate speech against non-believers, and Muhammad was a violent, ruthless warlord.