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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Turkey seizes six Christian churches as state property

Apr 17, 2016 7:24 pm By Robert Spencer

Let them into the EU!

Virgin Mary Syriac Orthodox Church in Diyarbakir

“Turkey seizes six churches as state property in volatile southeast,” World Watch Monitor, April 6, 2016:

After 10 months of urban conflict in Turkey’s war-torn southeast, the government has expropriated huge sections of property, apparently to rebuild and restore the historical centre of the region’s largest city, Diyarbakir.

But to the dismay of the city’s handful of Christian congregations, this includes all its Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches. Unlike the state-funded mosques, Turkey’s ancient church buildings – some of which pre-date Islam – have been managed, historically, by church foundations.

The new decision has effectively made the Diyarbakir churches – one 1,700 years old, another built only in 2003 – state property of Turkey, an Islamic country of 75 million.

Who are the Kurds?

Kurds make up an estimated 20% of the total Turkish population. The Kurds maintain the Allies promised them an independent state after World War II, which never happened. Since 1984, more than 40,000 have died in Turkey in the fight for autonomy. Over the past 10 months, the Turkish army have killed an estimated 5,000 PKK militants and lost 355 soldiers across the southeast, according to current government statistics. (The number of civilian deaths remains in dispute.)

Turkey’s southeast is heavily populated by Kurds – an ethnic Muslim group also extending across Turkey’s borders into Iran, Syria and Iraq, where Kurdish militias are prominent in all the regional fighting.

Fierce fighting, centring heavily on Diyarbakir, has escalated since the end of a two-year ceasefire between the Turkish armed forces and the militants of the Kurdish Workers’ Party (the PKK) in June 2015.

Last autumn, the PKK youth declared self-rule over large parts of the Diyarbakir district of Sur, digging trenches and building barricades to keep authorities out. Blanket curfews left the populace under siege for weeks at a time, causing more than 30,000 to flee the city.

Then in late March, the government announced the “urgent expropriation” of 6,300 plots of land in the Sur district. Six churches are now under state control: the Virgin Mary Syriac Orthodox Church, the Surp (Armenian for “Saint”) Sarkis Chaldean Catholic Church, the Diyarbakir Protestant Church, the Apostolic Armenian Surp Giragos Church, an Armenian Catholic church, and the Mar Petyun Chaldean Catholic Church.

Churches affected and their historical significance

For much of the past 10 months, the small Christian communities of Armenians, Assyrians, Chaldeans and Turkish Christian converts have been unable to access their church buildings in Diyarbakir’s city centre due to the heavy fighting; several have suffered minor damages.

Few Christian houses of worship exist in Turkey’s southeast. Although it is the ancestral homeland of Syriacs and Armenians, well over a million of these ethnic Christians were massacred and sent on death marches during the final years of the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century.

Diyarbakir’s Surp Giragos Church is the largest Armenian church in the Middle East. Sitting near the banks of the Tigris River, its large bell tower stands out as a symbol of Christianity’s once vibrant presence in the region.

First built in the 1600s, Surp Giragos was closed in the 1960s after the city became depopulated of Armenians. After the diaspora funded $1 million for its renovation, Surp Giragos reopened in 2011.

Very few Armenians still live in Diyarbakir. The church only holds services for major holidays like Christmas and Easter, when priests fly in from Istanbul to offer communion. The rest of the year it has remained open as a tourist attraction.

The new expropriation order, published in the government’s Official Gazette on 25 March, came from a council of ministers led by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The decision was based on Article 27 of Turkey’s Expropriation Law. According to Fatmagul Sari, the Minister of Environment and Urban Planning, the decision was made as a “last resort” to protect the area. In 2010, 330 structures in the Sur neighbourhood were demolished as part of an urban renewal programme.

The ruling has caused “disquiet” among Armenian, Syriac and Chaldean communities, according to the Turkish-Armenian daily, Agos. Multiple church foundations are preparing to appeal the decision. Archbishop Aram Atesyan of the Armenian Apostolic Church said he has demanded a meeting with Sari to ask the cabinet to correct the decision….

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Filed Under: Muslim persecution of Christians, Turkey Tagged With: Diyarbakir


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Comments

  1. linnte says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 7:33 pm

    Pray for the Turkish Christians! If they take their churches, the next in line are them! Clearly this is a step to squash Christianity in Turkey.

    • Christianblood says

      Apr 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm

      The genocidal islamic Turks are a US ally and a Nato member. What does that say about the West?

      • linnte says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 12:12 am

        It says the people have been sleeping far too long and need to oust the people in our Governments. I don’t know any one, Liberals included, who think Turkey is a good place, or has a good Government. We have allowed our Gov to go too far! Like our alliance with Saudi! That sucks! It’s all about MONEY and the goal of a One World Government.

        • Peggy says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 10:55 pm

          I don’t think anyone has allowed the govenrment to go any distance. They just did it without your or mine input.
          They’ve become dictators over time and we didn’t even notice it until just recently.
          When we’ve been lied to by government and then our media who have a responsibility to hold the government to account what chance did we have but to have all this happen without us knowing?
          By the time we got to know, it was too late. It’s done now.
          So now that we know, let’s be a lot more careful when we cast that ballot.

      • Enrico says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 2:46 am

        The West abandonded Christianity, have no honour, worship a false hateful idol.

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 12:43 pm

          Enrico posted

          (…The West abandonded Christianity, have no honour, worship a false hateful idol…)

          Very well-said Enrico! The West replaced Christianity with a new radical secular religion known as “liberal democracy”.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 1:42 pm

          Please restrain yourself from using words whose meanings are alien to you, such as “secular”, “religion, “liberal” or “democracy”. You’re making a fool of yourself.

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 2:06 pm

          Angemon posted

          (…Please restrain yourself from using words whose meanings are alien to you, such as “secular”, “religion, “liberal” or “democracy”…)

          Angemon, you don’t have to believe what I say but please watch Iben Thranhlom, a Danish writer and journalist who is an expert on postmodernism in the West talking about this very subject. Please Start the video from around 1:11 mark:

        • Angemon says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 5:22 pm

          Christianblood posted:

          “Angemon, you don’t have to believe what I say”

          What I wrote:

          Please restrain yourself from using words whose meanings are alien to you, such as “secular”, “religion, “liberal” or “democracy”. You’re making a fool of yourself.

          What you’re trying to spin it into:

          “you don’t have to believe what I say”

          You clearly don’t know the meanings of any of those words.

          “Iben Thranhlom, a Danish writer and journalist who is an expert on postmodernism in the West”

          Citation needed. In any case, just because someone else (allegedly) says it doesn’t make it any more truth. All you’re proving so far is that you’re good at parroting things and not-so-good at deflecting responsibility when on the spot.

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 8:25 pm

          “Christianblood” wrote:

          Very well-said Enrico! The West replaced Christianity with a new radical secular religion known as “liberal democracy”.
          ……………………….

          The idea that all devout Christians reject democracy is ludicrous. Democracy is not inimical to Christianity–just the opposite, in fact.

          Just because “Christianblood” hates freedom and democracy does not mean that Christians do so.

      • Anne Smith says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 5:36 am

        It says the West is governed by fools, led by the prize numpty of all time, Angela Merkel.

        • DFD says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 4:07 pm

          You forgot Obama. But Merkel will probably arrange a grant for converting those churches into mosques….

      • Rick says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 11:00 pm

        Dump them and the Saudis.

    • Warren Raymond says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 1:35 am

      There is no Christianity left in Turkey. That place is already 99% Islamic.

      • Kepha says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 5:44 am

        Actually, some of the 1% is people who have left Islam.

      • Christianblood says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 12:34 pm

        Warren Raymond posted

        (…There is no Christianity left in Turkey. That place is already 99% Islamic….)

        Exactly and the genocidal Turks are seizing the few remaining Churches and turning into mosques. The evil march of islamic supremacism looks unstoppable!

      • MarkH says

        Apr 19, 2016 at 9:52 am

        Actually there are Christian Turks. I know some of them.

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 8:27 pm

          There used to be a lot more Christians in Turkey before the Armenian Genocide of a hundred years ago, Mark–at least two million of them.

          And just five hundred years ago Turkey was a Christian nation–the Byzantine Empire.

    • Peter Brock says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 9:25 am

      Great headline… Gobbled them right up, did he?!

      I dunno, Bob. Obviously informed readerships aren’t helping things…

    • Bob says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 9:43 am

      And Cameron wants Turkey in the mess of the EU!

    • faraway says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 12:17 pm

      Nothing new there.In 1820 there were still 30% christians in Turkey;now less than 1%.

      • gravenimage says

        Apr 19, 2016 at 8:28 pm

        Very true.

    • spa says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 12:57 pm

      IT is already squashed ,,,and pity on you EUropean for simply watching it.

      Turkey was 99% Christian in 1500
      70% in early 1700
      60% even upto 1850
      30% even after many genocides till 1912
      less than 5% after 1922
      now less than 1%
      Is it not squashed ?
      Christians were killed in scores raped and forcibly converted …Their properties confiscated …But the Christians Brothers of Europe simply watched it and now competing among themselves led by the foolish lady of GErmany to placate Turkey whereby encouraging them to do more and more atrocities ..Now the christian population in Turkey is meagre and so they aims at the Kurdish Muslims and European Christians . I pray God to give sense to European leaders and keeps the satanic Turks at bay

      • Rick says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 11:02 pm

        Excellent.

      • Peggy says

        Apr 20, 2016 at 11:01 pm

        I pray that we get new leaders in Europe because the ones we have today are traitors and won’t change.
        People have to wake up in greater numbers and vote for parties dedicated to preservation of Europe.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 21, 2016 at 6:17 am

          You’re not European. You have no knowledge of European history. You have no idea of what it takes to preserve Europe – you’re all for the breakup of the European Union when anyone who read European history and the major battles against invaders should know that Europe won when it stood united. You would have us split and left to fend for ourselves – to be picked off one by one by a larger enemy.

  2. Christianblood says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 7:47 pm

    Turkey is a member of Nato and US and EU allies. What does this tell us about the West?

    • gravenimage says

      Apr 17, 2016 at 10:47 pm

      As soon as I saw “Christianblood” had posted on this thread, I knew he would not have a word of criticism for the oppressive Muslims, but just for the West.

      • Christianblood says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 12:40 pm

        gravenimage

        Dear Graven, I know for sure that without the West’s aiding and abbeting, islamo-fascists would not have been as successful and as unstoppable as they are now. The world really needs new and effective global alliance against islamo-fascism.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 1:43 pm

          Hi CB!

          You have the Russian to thank for for the Pakistani nukes. And the Iranian nuclear program. Trying to blame everything on the West just exposes you for what you are:

          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 2:13 pm

          Angemon

          Actually, the know-how of paki bomb came mainly from a paki muslim physicist who learned the trade in clueless Western nuclear companies that have unrestrictedly employed him for decades. Read it below please: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/21/father-pakistan-nuclear-bomb-says-nuke-deal-may-have-saved-iran-from-disaster.html

        • Angemon says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 5:24 pm

          Christianblood posted:

          “Angemon

          Actually, the know-how of paki bomb came mainly from a paki muslim physicist who learned the trade in clueless Western nuclear companies that have unrestrictedly employed him for decades. Read it below please: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/21/father-pakistan-nuclear-bomb-says-nuke-deal-may-have-saved-iran-from-disaster.html.”

          First of all, exactly where does it say that in the article? Second, let’s assume, for the sake of your argument, that was indeed the case. Having the know-how is not the same as having the means. Who gave Pakistan the materials and parts needed to build a nuclear reactor? Without China there would be no nukes in Pakistan. And guess who gave the People’s Republic of China the know-how to make those parts and materials? Which nuclear-weapon possessing state would trust communist China enough to share with them the secrets to nuclear weapons?

        • Angemon says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 6:29 pm

          “a paki muslim physicist ”

          BTW, CB, Abdul Qadeer Khan, despite being called “the father of the bomb”, is not a physicist, he’s a metallurgical engineer. He had no part in designing, developing or testing Pakistan’s nukes. Heck, he didn’t even *lived* in Pakistan when the program started. And it wasn’t until 1976, 5 years (give or take) after the Pakistani nuclear weapons program started, that he was placed in charge of Pakistan’s uranium enrichment program.

        • 338Lapua says

          Apr 18, 2016 at 10:32 pm

          Dear Ang.
          The US and China developed Pakistans nuclear arms program.
          The program was a rebuke to India’s own nuke program.
          The USSR had nothing to do with Pakistans program, India is a ally of the Soviet Union.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 6:42 am

          Nope. The US didn’t. China did. And the People’s Republic of China wouldn’t have a nuclear weapons program were it not for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 10:32 am

          338Lapua posted:

          (…The US and China developed Pakistans nuclear arms program.
          The program was a rebuke to India’s own nuke program.
          The USSR had nothing to do with Pakistans program, India is a ally of the Soviet Union…)

          Thanks Lapua. You are right! Russia had nothing to do with the development of paki nukes.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 10:48 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Russia had nothing to do with the development of paki nukes.”

          Where did the Chinese get the knowledge needed for their nuclear weapons program?

        • 337Lapua says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 10:46 pm

          Angemon, if the Soviets gave China the abilitity to make nuclear weapons years before Pakistan acquired their own, how does that make the Soviets complicate if China ( a sovereign nation ) or the US eventually developed Pakistan’s. At the time Soviet and Chinese relations were not good. Please cite your sources, I’ve checked numerous online articles and come up empty handed.
          Thanks

        • Angemon says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 8:10 am

          337Lapua posted:

          “Angemon, if the Soviets gave China the abilitity to make nuclear weapons years before Pakistan acquired their own, how does that make the Soviets complicate if China ( a sovereign nation ) or the US eventually developed Pakistan’s.”

          A couple of remarks, Avenger.

          1 – The US didn’t. You keep insisting that, but it’s not true.

          2 – If the Soviets hadn’t helped develop China’s nuclear weapons program, China wouldn’t have Pakistan developed its own.

          “At the time Soviet and Chinese relations were not good.”

          Huh, so what?

          “Please cite your sources, I’ve checked numerous online articles and come up empty handed.
          Thanks
          ”

          I doubt it. A single cursory google search on “china pakistan nuclear weapons” gets over 2 million hits. But I’ll tell you what: start by showing your sources for the claim that the US developed Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program and we’ll work it from there.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 8:13 am

          Anyway, I’m getting mixed messages from you. First you imply that China helped Pakistan developing nuclear weapons, then you demand sources? What gives?

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 10:36 am

          Agmenon posted

          (…Abdul Qadeer Khan, despite being called “the father of the bomb”, is not a physicist, he’s a metallurgical engineer…)

          You are right Angemon! Thanks for the correction. He was metallurgial engineer but he should not have been allowed to access the nuke know-how technicalities when he was working in Holland.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 10:48 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “You are right Angemon! Thanks for the correction. He was metallurgial engineer but he should not have been allowed to access the nuke know-how technicalities when he was working in Holland.”

          As I said, there’s nothing in the article you provided to substantiate what you wrote:

          know-how of paki bomb came mainly from a paki muslim physicist who learned the trade in clueless Western nuclear companies that have unrestrictedly employed him for decades.

          As I said, Abdul Qadeer Khan, despite being called “the father of the bomb”, is not a physicist, he’s a metallurgical engineer. He had no part in designing, developing or testing Pakistan’s nukes. Heck, he didn’t even *lived* in Pakistan when the program started. And it wasn’t until 1976, 5 years (give or take) after the Pakistani nuclear weapons program started, that he was placed in charge of Pakistan’s uranium enrichment program.

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 11:24 am

          Angemon

          What I know is that Abdul Qadeer Khan is the father the islamic/paki bomb and you can research that your self if you want and the more important point is today pakistan has nukes and to me, paki nukes are like ISIS nukes and the West and Russia and the whole world should work together to prevent Iran and other islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and others to develop the bomb. The key point is first Russia and the West should solve their differences and in a respectful way and then other things will be easier to solve. The West should stop pushing Russia into a corner and stop pushing ‘regime changes’ that will only help the jihadists in the world and Nato should be recalibrated to deal with the present
          threat in the world today and trust me that threat is NOT Russia but global islamic jihadism. Have a nice day!

        • Angemon says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 11:39 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Angemon

          What I know is that Abdul Qadeer Khan is the father the islamic/paki bomb ”

          Meaning you don’t know anything other than that’s what he’s called.

          “and you can research that your self if you want ”

          I know tha story of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons project. You, on the other hand, don’t. Plus, you gave a link that was supposed to back what you claim, except that it doesn’t. There’s nothing in the link you gave that supports the assertion you’re making.

          Telling me to research is a very poor deflection – I called you out on what you said, you chickened out.

          “and the more important point is today pakistan has nukes ”

          You have Russia to thank for it, not the US.

          “and the West and Russia and the whole world should work together to prevent Iran and other islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and others to develop the bomb.”

          Start with Iran. Stop Iran’s nuclear weapons project and the arms race in the region will subside. Of course, Putin will do no such thing. Allying himself with the West he clearly despises and routinely demonizes? I’ll believe it when I see it.

          “The key point is first Russia and the West should solve their differences and in a respectful way ”

          See above. Oh, and you’re one to talk about “solving differences in a respectful way”, with all your venomous rants against Western core values such as democracy, freedom, secularism protection of minorities, etc.

          “The West should stop pushing Russia into a corner”

          And the demonization of the West and whitewashing of Russia starts…

          “The West should stop pushing Russia into a corner”

          As opposed to what, supporting the jihadis in power, such is the case with Iran?

          “and Nato should be recalibrated to deal with the present
          threat in the world today and trust me that threat is NOT Russia but global islamic jihadism.
          ”

          They’re both threats to the West. And they’ve proven they can work together against a common foe – the West.

          “Have a nice day!”

          Likewise, and may you live long and carry on enjoying the fruits of Western culture and civilization, like computers, the Internet, freedom of speech, etc.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 11:46 am

          Error correction. Where it reads

          “The West should stop pushing Russia into a corner”

          As opposed to what, supporting the jihadis in power, such is the case with Iran?</

          it should read:

          <blockquote“and stop pushing ‘regime changes’ that will only help the jihadists in the world“

          As opposed to what, supporting the jihadis in power, such is the case with Iran?

          I really need to make a habit of re-reading my posts before posting them – in that instance, Ctrl+C wasn’t recognized, so it pasted the previous thing I copied.

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 8:34 pm

          “Christianblood” wrote:

          The world really needs new and effective global alliance against islamo-fascism.
          ………………………

          This is just “Christianblood” flogging the idea that this is the man to do it:

          “Putin Says Orthodoxy ‘Closer to Islam than Catholicism Is’”

          http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2010/12/window-on-eurasia-putin-says-orthodoxy.html

          The West God, knows, has its clueless and appeasers–but the endless claim from “Christianblood” that we should accept Putin as our savior in this regard is, shall we say, questionable at best.

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 8:38 pm

          Misplaced punctuation–that should be, “The West, God knows, has its clueless and appeasers–”…

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 1:03 pm

          Angemon posted:

          (…Likewise, and may you live long and carry on enjoying the fruits of Western culture and civilization, like computers, the Internet, freedom of speech…)

          Thanks Angemon but I will rather enjoy Hesychia, spiritual contemplation, detachment from materiality, metanoia, theosis etc, etc. I will rather enjoy the unchanging spiritual things (the kingdom of God) rather than the illusory and the deceptive physical things.

          Dear Angemon, in Orthodox Christianity, (…We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal…) 2 Korinthians 4:18

        • Angemon says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 1:43 pm

          Christianblood posted:

          “Thanks Angemon but I will rather enjoy Hesychia, spiritual contemplation, detachment from materiality, metanoia, theosis etc, etc. I will rather enjoy the unchanging spiritual things (the kingdom of God) rather than the illusory and the deceptive physical things.”

          As it is clearly shown in these posts:

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/saudis-threaten-to-sell-us-assets-if-theyre-held-responsible-for-role-in-911#comment-1418318

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/saudis-threaten-to-sell-us-assets-if-theyre-held-responsible-for-role-in-911#comment-1418498

          Anyway, a friendly advice: if you get sick, go to the doctor instead of praying for a cure. I heard France and the UK have really good healthcare systems Russia, on the other hand… well, I’m sure you’ll get by – if you’re cured, you’re cured, if you don’t then you pass over to the spiritual world (assuming it exists).

          “Dear Angemon, in Orthodox Christianity, (…We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal…) 2 Korinthians 4:18”

          The Bible also says “Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses” – you might want to remember that the next time you think about ranting about NATO and the West…

        • Christianblood says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 6:16 pm

          Angemon posted

          (…The Bible also says “Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses” – you might want to remember that the next time you think about ranting about NATO and the West…)

          Angemon, the hatred and the strife that you quoted is the one is based on a person-to-person-context. It is not about hating an impersonal, anti-Christ religious/political ideology that seeks to destroy the true nature of God in the world. Both islam and the atheistic, moral relativist secularism that is running the Western are worldviews that are against the true nature of God and anyone who truly loves God cannot love islam and the atheistic secular relativism. God actually tells His people to love what is good and hate what is evil. Please read
          Pslam 139: 21-22, Pslam 97:10, Prov 8:13, Romans 12:9.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 6:48 pm

          Christianblood posted:

          “Angemon, the hatred and the strife that you quoted is the one is based on a person-to-person-context. It is not about hating an impersonal, anti-Christ religious/political ideology that seeks to destroy the true nature of God in the world. Both islam and the atheistic, moral relativist secularism that is running the Western are worldviews that are against the true nature of God and anyone who truly loves God cannot love islam and the atheistic secular relativism.”

          And there goes the hatred again… You realize that secularism just means the separation of church and state, right? It’s a Christian concept – “Render therefore unto Caesar”, etc. Atheism is the lack of belief in God, and in the West that’s a *personal* decision. You can’t say you hate atheism in the West without saying you hate every person who is an atheist.

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 6:23 pm

          Christianblood, there is nothing in the free West preventing you–or anyone–from leading a spiritually contemplative life. There is nothing preventing you from decamping to Russia or any other Christian Orthodox-majority country, either.

          Christians in the Soviet Union were prevented from worshipping freely and even from leaving. That has never been the case here.

          You might consider this, even if you despise technological innovation and guaranteed freedom of speech.

      • DFD says

        Apr 18, 2016 at 4:13 pm

        gravenimage says: “As soon as I saw “Christianblood” had posted on this thread,..”

        Hi Graven,

        I posted specifically for you and Wellington about “Christianblood”on: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/saudis-threaten-to-sell-us-assets-if-theyre-held-responsible-for-role-in-911/comment-page-1#comment-1418366

        Wellington’s, Mortimer’s and other replies were telling. Have a read and watch

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 19, 2016 at 8:39 pm

          Thank you, DFD–I read your posts and watched the video you linked to, and commented there.

  3. freewoman says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 7:51 pm

    Strange. The churches are only 6 out of 6,300 properties the turks seized and sounds like they’ve been vacant a long time too. Is this a move to drive out the kurds? That’s what the article seemed to be hinting at, since that was city the kurds were occupying and then turkish government is seizing a bunch of land…
    Doubtful the government will maintain them as churches; probably convert them mosques. 🙁

    • Angemon says

      Apr 17, 2016 at 8:10 pm

      Or “museums” where muslims are allowed to pray and Christians aren’t.

  4. Kepha says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 8:27 pm

    Erdogan sees that the current European and American leadership would also like to see Christianity extinguished, so he does what he’d probably wanted to do for some time but wouldn’t , lest it play badly in with his allies.

  5. Jay Boo says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 9:15 pm

    ISRA and Obama
    The enabler of the Flying Donkey ideology.

    “Why the Story of Isra ” at the end of his Cairo speech?

    “Most westerners no doubt, have never heard of it, until this speech. But it sounds good, the vision of the three major monotheistic faiths praying together in peace and harmony in Jerusalem! Moses, representing the Jews, Jesus, the Christians, and Mohammed, the Muslims, all joining in prayer?”

    http://www.believersingrace.com/outofegyptpart3.html

    • Jay Boo says

      Apr 17, 2016 at 9:48 pm

      The first 20 Obama quotes below are about Islam.
      The last 20 are about Christianity.

  6. Jay Boo says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    OBAMA QUOTES

    From The Conservative Tribune
    —————————
    1. “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam”

    2. “The sweetest sound I know is the Muslim call to prayer”

    3. “We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”

    4. “As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam.”

    5. “Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.”

    6. “Islam has always been part of America”

    7. “we will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities”

    8. “These rituals remind us of the principles that we hold in common, and Islam’s role in advancing justice, progress, tolerance, and the dignity of all human beings.”

    9. “America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.”

    10. “I made it clear that America is not – and will never be – at war with Islam.”

    11. “Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace.”

    12. “So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed”

    13. “In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education.”

    14. “Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”

    15. “Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality”

    16. “The Holy Koran tells us, ‘O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.’”

    17. “I look forward to hosting an Iftar dinner celebrating Ramadan here at the White House later this week, and wish you a blessed month.”

    18. “We’ve seen those results in generations of Muslim immigrants – farmers and factory workers, helping to lay the railroads and build our cities, the Muslim innovators who helped build some of our highest skyscrapers and who helped unlock the secrets of our universe.”

    19. “That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

    20. “I also know that Islam has always been a part of America’s story.”

    ================================================================

    — Now, let’s compare those quotes to what he has said about Christianity:

    1. “Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation”

    2. “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation.”

    3. “Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?”

    4. “Even those who claim the Bible’s inerrancy make distinctions between Scriptural edicts, sensing that some passages – the Ten Commandments, say, or a belief in Christ’s divinity – are central to Christian faith, while others are more culturally specific and may be modified to accommodate modern life.”

    5. “The American people intuitively understand this, which is why the majority of Catholics practice birth control and some of those opposed to gay marriage nevertheless are opposed to a Constitutional amendment to ban it. Religious leadership need not accept such wisdom in counseling their flocks, but they should recognize this wisdom in their politics.”

    6. From Obama’s book, The Audacity of Hope: “I am not willing to have the state deny American citizens a civil union that confers equivalent rights on such basic matters as hospital visitation or health insurance coverage simply because the people they love are of the same sex—nor am I willing to accept a reading of the Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the Sermon on the Mount.”

    7. Obama’s response when asked what his definition of sin is: “Being out of alignment with my values.”

    8. “If all it took was someone proclaiming I believe Jesus Christ and that he died for my sins, and that was all there was to it, people wouldn’t have to keep coming to church, would they.”

    9. “This is something that I’m sure I’d have serious debates with my fellow Christians about. I think that the difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and prostelytize. There’s the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven’t embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they’re going to hell.”

    10. “I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can’t imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That’s just not part of my religious makeup.”

    11. “I don’t presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die. But I feel very strongly that whether the reward is in the here and now or in the hereafter, the aligning myself to my faith and my values is a good thing.”

    12. “I’ve said this before, and I know this raises questions in the minds of some evangelicals. I do not believe that my mother, who never formally embraced Christianity as far as I know … I do not believe she went to hell.”

    13. “Those opposed to abortion cannot simply invoke God’s will–they have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths.”

    14. On his support for civil unions for gay couples: “If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount.”

    15. “You got into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    16. “In our household, the Bible, the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology”

    17. “On Easter or Christmas Day, my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the Chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites.”

    18. “We have Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, and their own path to grace is one that we have to revere and respect as much as our own”

    19. “All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra— (applause) — as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer. (Applause.)”

    20. “I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”

    • Cecilia Ellis says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 2:14 am

      Thanks, Jay Boo. This list is a keeper. Pretty revealing, isn’t it?

    • 338lapua says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 11:40 pm

      Thank you also Jay Boo!
      This reveals the mind set of this creepy thing we have in office.
      I will print your article at work tomorrow and distribute.

    • gravenimage says

      Apr 19, 2016 at 8:41 pm

      *Very telling*, Jay Boo.

  7. Westman says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    Erdogan, the man who would be Caliph. What a mistake the US made in giving him nuclear weapons for use BY Turk forces. He’s been trying to face off Russian and the US into a conflict in which he would emerge with nuclear weapons amid a ruined West and ruined Russia.

    We gave him the ability to become Caliph, as close as he can become to God-Allah and restore the Ottoman Empire.

    Only a blind man could miss his intent for world power. Turkey should be removed from NATO, and the weapons returned.

    • Baucent says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 12:46 am

      The US gave him nuclear weapons? That’s a new one for me. Are you saying there are nuclear weapons at military bases used by US forces or that Turkey has control of them? I would seriously doubt the later and probably the former.

    • gravenimage says

      Apr 19, 2016 at 8:48 pm

      Not exactly. NATO has a program rather absurdly titled “Nuclear Sharing”, whereby NATO bases in countries without nuclear weapons are stocked with nukes.

      The other nations are Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, and Italy. Incirlik Base in Turkey is part of this program.

      Given the possibility of theft, it is extremely unwise for us to have nukes stocked in *any* Muslim nation.

      But this is *not* quite the same thing as the US giving Turkey nuclear weapons.

      • Peggy says

        Apr 20, 2016 at 11:12 pm

        Those nukes should be removed immediately. How many weapons have ended up with IS which were really meant for others? Iraq is a prime example.
        Why do you think the US isn’t removing nukes from Turkey?

  8. gravenimage says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 11:03 pm

    After 10 months of urban conflict in Turkey’s war-torn southeast, the government has expropriated huge sections of property, apparently to rebuild and restore the historical centre of the region’s largest city, Diyarbakir.

    But to the dismay of the city’s handful of Christian congregations, this includes all its Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches…
    ……………………..

    This is a continuation of the Armenian Genocide in that same city:

    “Massacres of Diyarbakır”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Diyarbak%C4%B1r_(1895)

    More:

    Diyarbakir’s Surp Giragos Church is the largest Armenian church in the Middle East. Sitting near the banks of the Tigris River, its large bell tower stands out as a symbol of Christianity’s once vibrant presence in the region.

    First built in the 1600s, Surp Giragos was closed in the 1960s after the city became depopulated of Armenians. After the diaspora funded $1 million for its renovation, Surp Giragos reopened in 2011.
    ……………………..

    This is especially appalling, given this church’s storied history. Here’s more:

    “St. Giragos Armenian Church”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Giragos_Armenian_Church

    It was described as “Turkey’s first church to be revived as a permanent place of worship” when restored and reopened in 2011–we see how long *that* was allowed to last.

  9. gravenimage says

    Apr 17, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    This video is not in English, but it gives a good sense of how beautiful Surp Giragos Church is, and how badly the building had been damaged:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RRAIUMM5kg

    And this gives you a sense of the history:

  10. Dan Jones says

    Apr 18, 2016 at 12:15 am

    They more storage room for their peaceful weapons…

    More End Time News At:
    http://www.shininginthedark.com/?page_id=7760

  11. Aton says

    Apr 18, 2016 at 3:33 am

    Some corrections.

    The church pictured dates from the 3rd century, and is perhaps the oldest church in the world. It is surrounded by 10m high high walls, like a prison, to protect it. The patriarch is one of the few who still speak Aramaic, the original language of the gospels.

    The church said here to have been ‘built in 2003’ was actually rebuilt. It is a very old church that was burned down recently, like all the others.

    The tourist guide to Diyarbakir says there are twelve churches in the town, but when i tried to visit, I found that ten had been burned down during and since the Armenian genocide.

    In 1860 55% of the population of Diyarbakir were Christian, and there was a vibrant Jewish community too. But by 2011, there were only 40 Christians left in the city, which has 900,000 people. Yes, just forty people.

    That is what the Armenian genocide and subsequent predations have done to the Christians of the East. And yet the Pope decides to save Syrian Muslims instead. Does he have a death-wish for his own people?

    Aton

    • spa says

      Apr 18, 2016 at 1:06 pm

      Aton ,
      Cry loudly and pray to God ..We are in a very complex and hypocritical situation . The Christians of Middle east is almost finished .How ? Muslims
      1.Killed the Christians
      2. Forcibly converted Christians
      3. Destroyed the entire life of Christians by means of Dhimmitude ( Head Tax ,Halal Food)
      But the west ,the so called Christians simply watching and encouraging these devils mainly lead by Turkish Muslims
      Current Pope is not knowing what he is doing He replaced his predecessor Pope Francis who used to see things in the right perspective. Now feel bad politics in his resignation

    • gravenimage says

      Apr 19, 2016 at 8:50 pm

      Thank you for the additional information, Aton.

  12. Aton says

    Apr 18, 2016 at 3:42 am

    And I fail to see how the Giragos church was damaged in 2016. Like the other church it is in the middle of the city and surrounded by high walls and only presents one small door to the street.

    If it was damaged in fighting, this represents the deliberate targeting of this church, which had already been burned down in the 1960s. This is the deliberate targeting of the Christian community by the Turks.

    I only hope the Mardin churches and the Saffron Monastery survive. And I say this as an Atheist.

    Aton

  13. mortimer says

    Apr 18, 2016 at 7:19 am

    The Turks continue their relentless genocide by other means. This the stage where the crocodile swallows the feet of the beast they have been killing. Then no visible sign of their prey is left.

    Removing all trace of the victims is the final stage of genocide. Their homes are gone, their churches are gone, their cemeteries are gone and no historic association with the indigenes is left. Everything is Turkicized. Who’s to say the indigenes were ever there?

  14. vox populi says

    Apr 18, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    … let’s hope the Pope doesn’t comment (as usual), or Frau Merkel may authorise Erdogan to have him arrested…..

  15. linnte says

    Apr 19, 2016 at 3:45 pm

    I just heard that Turkey is threatening the EU with opening the flood gates if not let into the EU soon. On RT TV. ! Apparently the people are somewhat being HEARD because Erdragon is not kind to journalists or non Muslims! Keep your fingers xxxed!

    • Angemon says

      Apr 19, 2016 at 4:04 pm

      I’m wondering why it took Erdogan so long. So the EU has two choices:

      a) Stand up to the blackmail and be invaded by a couple million Syrian refugees coming from Turkey, to which they would reply with sanctions that would weaken Turkish economy and isolate it even further.

      b) Cave in to the blackmail and be invaded by tens of million of Turks, indistinguishable religion-wise from the people Turkey is threatening to flood Europe with, plus a couple of million of Syrian refugees in Turkey waiting for an opening.

    • gravenimage says

      Apr 19, 2016 at 8:55 pm

      Yes, linnte–here’s that story:

      “Erdogan threatens to dump migrant deal if EU doesn’t fulfill pledges”

      https://www.rt.com/news/338781-erdogan-deal-eu-pledges/

      Of course, the predictable irony is that Turkey will use that money to flood invaders into Europe–and Europe is in deep denial for not realizing this.

      • Angemon says

        Apr 19, 2016 at 9:01 pm

        GI, have you tried comparing Turkey with Iran?

        Iran – “Here’s your nuclear deal. Are we good? – Yes, you American pigdogs”

        A while later – “Filthy American curs! Comply with this new demands or the deal is off!”

        Turkey – “Here’s the agreement regarding you taking in Syrian refugees. It involves a large sum of money and the warranty we’ll consider letting you into the EU, if you comply with our standards. Are we good? – Yes, you weak-willed infidels.”

        A while later – “Filthy infidel scum! Let us join the EU or the refugee deal is off!”

        • gravenimage says

          Apr 20, 2016 at 6:35 pm

          You are quite right, Angemon.

          In fact, Muslim countries threatening Infidel nations–especially those who have been foolishly generous to them–is so common as to be the norm:

          “Saudis threaten to sell US assets if they’re held responsible for role in 9/11”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/saudis-threaten-to-sell-us-assets-if-theyre-held-responsible-for-role-in-911

          “Ex-head of Pakistan’s ISI threatens to make Delhi & Mumbai ‘today’s Hiroshima and Nagasaki’”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/08/ex-head-of-pakistans-isi-threatens-to-make-delhi-mumbai-todays-hiroshima-and-nagasaki

          *Ugh*. This is how Muslims deal with anyone they believe they can bully.

  16. Peggy says

    Apr 21, 2016 at 9:16 am

    Peggy says

    April 20, 2016 at 11:01 pm

    I pray that we get new leaders in Europe because the ones we have today are traitors and won’t change.
    People have to wake up in greater numbers and vote for parties dedicated to preservation of Europe.
    Reply

    Angemon says

    April 21, 2016 at 6:17 am

    You’re not European. You have no knowledge of European history. You have no idea of what it takes to preserve Europe – you’re all for the breakup of the European Union when anyone who read European history and the major battles against invaders should know that Europe won when it stood united. You would have us split and left to fend for ourselves – to be picked off one by one by a larger enemy.
    =========================================
    I fail to see what I said was wrong.
    Do you reply to me just to get your anger and venom out on someone? You have no idea who I am and what I know about Europe.
    Yes, I would love EU to collapse because it’s a dictatorship and a vessel to enslave Europeans. This does not mean I hate Europe or the people there but you have to put words in my mouth again.
    Angermon, you seem to need to use me as a punching bag and an outlet for your insanity.
    My post was perfectly reasonable and there is no hint of my hatred for Europe in it. On the contrary it says I want Europe to be free of tyrants. That is so obvious to any sane reasonable person.
    I guess you are not that.

    • Angemon says

      Apr 21, 2016 at 11:23 am

      Peggy posted:

      “I fail to see what I said was wrong.”

      Because you want to be always right no matter what, and you refuse to acknowledge there are other points of view and opinions. Although, like Douglas Addams wrote, “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

      “Do you reply to me just to get your anger and venom out on someone?”

      No, that would be you, seeing how you have lied and vilified me. Heck, you’re doing it right there.

      “You have no idea who I am and what I know about Europe.”

      Are you European? Do you know about European history?

      “Yes, I would love EU to collapse because it’s a dictatorship and a vessel to enslave Europeans.”

      Funny how you pick the dictatorships to hate. I remember when you insulted, derided and lied about me for pointing out what Putin was doing to Russia. And I know how you usually react when I criticize Russia – “OMG, Angemon is insane and filled with hatred of Russia, he’s ALWAYS bringing Russia up” – and I’m certain you’ll not only do that but also double down, since the alternative would be you having to explain the inconsistency of your stance against tyranny.

      “This does not mean I hate Europe or the people there but you have to put words in my mouth again.”

      Which I didn’t, you liar. Where am I saying you hate Europe? Where am I saying you hate the people in Europe? I’m not, of course, so you need to pretend I am. That’s called a strawman. You are a proven liar, and that you need to resort to personal insults and lying about me while having the gall of claiming I’m the one putting words in your mouth, just goes to show I hit the bull’s-eye with that comment.

      “Angermon, you seem to need to use me as a punching bag and an outlet for your insanity.”

      Again with the acrimony, personal insults and baseless accusations. Those are not substitutes for logic and facts, you know? You’re a crybully. You insult, defame and attack me while trying to play the victim.

      “My post was perfectly reasonable and there is no hint of my hatred for Europe in it.On the contrary it says I want Europe to be free of tyrants.”

      No, that’s you debunking your strawman. And, of course, if you’re all against tyrants and dictators who are threatening Europe, one would expect to see harsh criticism of Putin from you. Which, spoiler alert, never happens. “I want Europe to be free of tyrants” my ass…

      Also, nice Freudian slip. “there is no hint of my hatred for Europe in it”.

      “That is so obvious to any sane reasonable person.
      I guess you are not that.
      ”

      *yawn*

      It’s funny how you did not address what I wrote- you preferred, instead to lie about it. What you did was a textbook example of setting up a strawman:

      http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man

      <blockquote<A straw man is logical fallacy that occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents an opponent's position to make the opponent's arguments appear easily defeated.

      Here’s what I wrote:

      You’re not European. You have no knowledge of European history. You have no idea of what it takes to preserve Europe – you’re all for the breakup of the European Union when anyone who read European history and the major battles against invaders should know that Europe won when it stood united. You would have us split and left to fend for ourselves – to be picked off one by one by a larger enemy.

      Here’s what you accused me of – in other words, the strawman you created:

      This does not mean I hate Europe or the people there but you have to put words in my mouth again….
      …
      My post was perfectly reasonable and there is no hint of my hatred for Europe in it. On the contrary it says I want Europe to be free of tyrants.

      Where did I put words in your mouth? I didn’t, of course. I knew beforehand, because you’ve expressed your stance on the subject, that you want the European Union gone and for each country to look after themselves. You just can’t control yourself when it comes to me – you need to lie, and lie, and insult me while trying to play the victim. If anyone here is a punchbag for someone who is neither sane nor reasonable, that would not be you. You can’t address me without insulting me in any form or fashion. You have behaviour issues and can’t keep your temper in check. Heck, you lie and insult at a rate it would make devout muslims shamed.

      Anyway, regarding what I actually wrote, I stand by it: if there’s anything to be learned from European history is that the major battles against islamic invaders were won by coalitions, and that countries who fought by themselves, no matter how valiantly or bravely, did not, in general, fare well. Navas de Tolosa – a coalition of Christian armies started the end of islam in Spain. Lepanto – a coalition of ships from several European Christian nations turned back the Ottoman tide. Vienna, both times – it was not just Austrians manning the walls, the first time, mercenaries paid with Spanish gold fought off the Janissaries when the walls were breached, and the second time Polish cavalry came to the rescue.

      What do you think it would happen if the EU was dissolved tomorrow? The Greek and Italian governments wouldn’t go “we need to man our borders and drive back the tide”? No, they would go “wait a minute, these guys don’t want to stay here, they want to go to Germany and Sweden. Why should we spend money and lives defending to keep Germany and Sweden safe when it’s cheaper and easier for us to let them through?”.

      I have been a critic of the European Union as it is. It needs to be revamped and made to focus on the current threat. Germans, Swedes and Britons, to name a few, need to stop thinking “those Greeks and Italians are lazy bums, not a cent more to them” and need to start thinking “if the Greeks and Italians can’t handle the tide, we should maybe help them”. There would be no need to give Greeks and Italians more money if they didn’t want to – Germans, Swedes and Britons could simply send their military and Navies to help patrol the Mediterranean and secure the borders. All they need to do is consider what’s more expensive in the long term – a few years of having their troops on the other side of Europe or paying welfare for millions of muslim invaders, as well as dealing with the rise in criminality and social unrest derived from their presence and actions on their soil.

      Your turn, Peggy. I challenge you to argue against what I said – that the future of Europe lies with the revamp of the EU and an European-wide alliance to stem the tide of the invasion – without insulting me, lying about me or trying to put words in my mouth. Can you keep your temper in check for 5 whole minutes to do that?

  17. Peggy says

    Apr 21, 2016 at 11:27 pm

    Angemon says

    April 21, 2016 at 11:23 am

    Peggy posted:

    “I fail to see what I said was wrong.”

    “Because you want to be always right no matter what, and you refuse to acknowledge there are other points of view and opinions. Although, like Douglas Addams wrote, “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than other.”
    ——-

    What is it about my post that suggest that?
    Do I fire back at someone with accusations of how they don’t know anything about the topic just because I may not like what they wrote? Oh wait that was just you.
    I was stating my point of view and not arguing with anyone when I wrote that,. You seem to make these statements without any evidence at all. Whatever pops in your head becomes your reality. How do you know what I know?
    In any case my take on things are just as valid as yours.
    You firing back proves that it is you who needs to always be right and you seem to love correcting anyone you disagree with.
    Yes, that is your business if you want to do that but doesn’t make you right and all others wrong.
    Do you think that your opinions are the ones Douglas Addams is talking about? I thought you didn’t believe in opinions (you pointed that out to me before) and only deal in facts.

    • Angemon says

      Apr 22, 2016 at 8:10 am

      Peggy posted:

      You know what? Before I do that, I’ll just point out what I ended my last post with:

      Your turn, Peggy. I challenge you to argue against what I said – that the future of Europe lies with the revamp of the EU and an European-wide alliance to stem the tide of the invasion – without insulting me, lying about me or trying to put words in my mouth. Can you keep your temper in check for 5 whole minutes to do that?

      5 minutes, Peggy. 5 minutes where you would keep your temper in check and address what I said instead of spiting out a stream of unsubstantiated, petty personal attacks. But you couldn’t do that, could you? You can’t argue with what I said, and for all your accusations about me, it’s you who are pursuing an avenue of pointless, petty confrontation – it’s you who are venting your rage online on someone who did no wrong but to disagree with you.

      I also asked you this:

      Are you European? Do you know about European history?

      My guess is that those answers are “No” and “No”, so further crybullying is needed to divert attention away.

      Anyway, back to this post.

      “What is it about my post that suggest that?”

      You mean, other than your refusal to discuss what you wrote or even acknowledge what I said about European success when they stuck together?

      “Do I fire back at someone with accusations of how they don’t know anything about the topic just because I may not like what they wrote? Oh wait that was just you.”

      More lies and slander. Do notice, Peggy, that I backed my statement with examples pulled out of European history. That you refuse to acknowledge them doesn’t change it. Meanwhile, I’d like you to explain me how I, as an European, am “enslaved” by the EU.

      “I was stating my point of view and not arguing with anyone when I wrote that,.”

      Huh, so what? Do you think you have some sort of special status where whatever you say can’t be argued with? What you said is so fundamentally wrong and going against the grain of European survival in the face of islamic invasion that it makes me wonder if you’re not a mohammedan agent.

      “You seem to make these statements without any evidence at all.”

      Again, Peggy, that you refuse to acknowledge what I say is not the same as me not saying it. But, of course, you have no arguments on you side, so venomous vitriol it is.

      “Whatever pops in your head becomes your reality.”

      See above.

      “How do you know what I know?”

      There’s this little thing called “induction”. It goes like this: you say something and I can induct what you know, or not, based off that. You’re counselling division when European history shows that union against a common foe was responsible for the great European successes against islamic invasion. Ergo, you don’t know European history.

      Of course, I assume you know this already and are just venting your rage gland.

      “In any case my take on things are just as valid as yours.”

      Which, as explained, they aren’t. You’re counselling division and I’m counselling union. European history has proven that uniting against a common foe was responsible for the great European successes against islamic invasion. Heck, you can’t even go “you’re wrong because…” like I did when analysing your post, you just go “what I said is just as valid as what you said”. That’s… how did you word it? Oh, yeah – “You seem to make these statements without any evidence at all” and “Whatever pops in your head becomes your reality”.

      “You firing back proves that it is you who needs to always be right and you seem to love correcting anyone you disagree with.”

      I, for one, think that in the open marketplace of ideas discussion discussion is a good thing. Good ideas can stand on their merits or even be improved while bad ideas simply whither away. Why are you so adamantly against the open discussion of ideas? Why do you think that whatever it is you say should be above any sort of criticism? Why do you think that saying “my point is just as valid as yours” is a valid argumentation technique? Why are you so attached to ideological relativism?

      “Yes, that is your business if you want to do that but doesn’t make you right and all others wrong.”

      See above.

      “Do you think that your opinions are the ones Douglas Addams is talking about? I thought you didn’t believe in opinions (you pointed that out to me before) and only deal in facts.”

      Oh, oh, a “GOTCHA!!!!” moment! “Well, if you’re for facts why are you talking about opinions? GOTCHA!!!”. Gee, I don’t know – maybe I was talking to you in a language you would understand.

      Anyway, don’t think you’re throwing sand in my face. You said, and I quote>

      My post was perfectly reasonable and there is no hint of my hatred for Europe in it.

      (my emphasis)

      Why do you hate Europe? Plus, I’m still waiting for you to address what I actually said: if there’s anything to be learned from European history is that the major battles against islamic invaders were won by coalitions, and that countries who fought by themselves, no matter how valiantly or bravely, did not, in general, fare well. Navas de Tolosa – a coalition of Christian armies started the end of islam in Spain. Lepanto – a coalition of ships from several European Christian nations turned back the Ottoman tide. Vienna, both times – it was not just Austrians manning the walls, the first time, mercenaries paid with Spanish gold fought off the Janissaries when the walls were breached, and the second time Polish cavalry came to the rescue.

      What do you think it would happen if the EU was dissolved tomorrow? The Greek and Italian governments wouldn’t go “we need to man our borders and drive back the tide”? No, they would go “wait a minute, these guys don’t want to stay here, they want to go to Germany and Sweden. Why should we spend money and lives defending to keep Germany and Sweden safe when it’s cheaper and easier for us to let them through?”.

      I have been a critic of the European Union as it is. It needs to be revamped and made to focus on the current threat. Germans, Swedes and Britons, to name a few, need to stop thinking “those Greeks and Italians are lazy bums, not a cent more to them” and need to start thinking “if the Greeks and Italians can’t handle the tide, we should maybe help them”. There would be no need to give Greeks and Italians more money if they didn’t want to – Germans, Swedes and Britons could simply send their military and Navies to help patrol the Mediterranean and secure the borders. All they need to do is consider what’s more expensive in the long term – a few years of having their troops on the other side of Europe or paying welfare for millions of muslim invaders, as well as dealing with the rise in criminality and social unrest derived from their presence and actions on their soil.

      Your turn, Peggy. I challenge you to argue against what I said – that the future of Europe lies with the revamp of the EU and an European-wide alliance to stem the tide of the invasion – without insulting me, lying about me or trying to put words in my mouth. Can you keep your temper in check for 5 whole minutes to do that?

      • Peggy says

        Apr 22, 2016 at 8:43 am

        You’re insane.

        • Angemon says

          Apr 22, 2016 at 8:59 am

          Nope, that would be the person claiming that opposite arguments are equally valid for whatever unexplained reason.

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