The Turks were the first large group of Muslims to move into Western Europe, beginning in the early 1960s, when Turkish men were brought to Germany as Gastarbeiter (“Guest Workers”) at the time of Germany’s boom or “economic miracle.” Later, the Germans decided that because of social problems with those guest workers (single males behaving badly), they should be allowed to bring with them their wives and children, in the expectation that this would calm the Turkish males down. But now those Gastarbeiter who had originally been expected to work for some years and then return to Turkey, instead were allowed, accompanied by their families, to become permanent residents, or even, in many cases, citizens. There are now more than three million ethnic Turks in Germany, and another two million Muslims of non-Turkish origin.
The results of two recent studies of Turks in Germany (the first, by the University of Münster, is “Integration and Religion From the Viewpoint of the Turkish Germans in Germany”; the second is “German-Turkish Life and Values,” and was jointly produced by the Berlin-based INFO polling institute and the Liljeberg research firm) are cause for alarm, and will certainly surprise many; they certainly came as a surprise to those conducting the two polls (“we didn’t expect that,” said Detlef Pollack, spokesman for the “Religion and Politics” group at Münster). What they discovered is that almost half (47 per cent) of the ethnic Turks polled said that following their “religious dogmas” – that is, the dictates of Islam – was “more important” to them than “obeying the laws of the land in which I live,” especially if they believed the German laws were in any way incompatible with Islam. Still more disturbing, one-third of the Muslims queried said that they yearned to “live in the society” of the times of the Prophet Muhammad – in other words, to erase the last 1400 years of cultural and intellectual progress in the West.
At the same time, the ethnic Turks were not discontented with the quality of their lives from the material point of view. 90 per cent of them responded that they were “pleased” with their life in Germany. However, there was one repeated complaint: over half reported that they were “second-class citizens” and had no chance to integrate fully, even though 70% of them “expressed a readiness to integrate ‘absolutely and unconditionally.’” More than half (54%) of the ethnic Turks also complained that “no matter what I do, I will never be recognized as a part of German society.” But who, after all, is preventing integration? Is it the Germans? Or is it, rather, those one out of three Turks who want to return to the time of Muhammad, or one out of two Turks who place Islamic law above the German one, or the nearly two out of three Turks – 62%, up from 40% in 2010 – who (in the second poll) say that even if they must associate with Germans at school or at work, they would much rather be around other Turks? And 95% of the Turks surveyed said it is absolutely necessary for them to preserve their Turkish identity; only slightly less, or 87% of those surveyed, said they believed that German society should make a great effort to be considerate of the customs and traditions of Turkish immigrants. Presumably almost all those Turks will be holding on for dear life to their Turkish identity, while at the same time somehow doing everything they can to integrate “absolutely and unconditionally” into German society.
The questioned Turks don’t appear to understand the significance of their own responses. What are the poor Germans to make of these contradictory answers?
But there’s still more to disturb. 20% of the Turks polled said that “the threat to Islam posed by the Western world” could justify Muslim violence to “defend” themselves against the West. In Islam, the definition of a “defensive” war is most peculiar: when non-Muslims refuse to yield to, or place obstacles in the way of, Muslim demands, or the Muslim call to Islam, this is considered an attack on Islam, and Muslims have a right to “defend” themselves. And 7% of the ethnic Turks in Germany, when queried, said that the use of violence to spread Islam was justified in every case. Of the Turks surveyed, 72% believe that Islam is the only true religion (in the 2010 survey, it was 69%).
Ethnic Turks and Germans in Germany view Islam quite differently. 57% of Turks link the protection of human rights to Islam; only 6% of German nationals do so. 56% of Turks associate Islam with tolerance, while only 5% of Germans do. It is clear that despite the massive efforts of the German state to make Turks (and other Muslims) understand the Western notions of “tolerance” and “human rights” that have so little to do with the Islamic conceptions of either, those efforts have failed. Or rather, the German state took on an impossible task, which was to change how Muslims in Germany interpreted Islam, so that it might be made compatible with Western ideas of human rights and tolerance. It hasn’t happened in Germany, and it hasn’t happened anywhere else.
Just as worrisome as the one out of three Turks who wanted to live in a society like that inhabited by the Prophet Muhammad was this: nearly half, or 46%, of the ethnic Turks in Germany expressed their devout wish that some day there would be more Muslims than Christians in Germany.
If present birth and immigration trends continue, their wish is likely to be granted. Muslims, Turk and non-Turk, could outnumber Germans in Germany within two generations, by 2050. That’s not far away. When Europeans hear about this grim future that conceivably awaits them, many become so upset that they simply shut their ears. Like Dickens’ Podsnap, they collectively exclaim: “I don’t want to know about it; I don’t choose to discuss it; I don’t admit it!”
But there’s no avoiding it. And if they were “to discuss it,” they might find ways – beginning with prudently shutting the door on Muslim immigration, and cutting extravagant benefits of all kinds to Muslim migrants already present – that would allow them to believe in a real future for their children, a future outside dar al-Islam.
60% of Germans in a recent poll declared that Islam “has no place in Germany,” up from 47% a few years ago. 60% of Germans cannot all be so easily cast into the outer darkness of putatively “far-right” Pegida. What happened to concentrate German minds? A million more Muslim migrants in just the past year happened, that’s what happened.
And it is not only Germans who are alarmed about the size of the Muslim population in Germany. In an interview on May 31 with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, a world-renowned figure declared that Germany has already accepted “too many” migrants and that they should eventually be returned to help rebuild their home countries. “Germany cannot become an Arab [i.e., Muslim] country,” he said. “Germany is Germany.”
Who said that? Not a member of Pegida. But, rather, someone who has been lionized by the Left for more than half a century, someone who always ranks first or second in any poll of the “most popular world leaders.” Having awakened to reality just in time, he is now inveighing against the Islamization of Germany. It’s not Geert Wilders, not Marine Le Pen, not Magdi Allam, not Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Hearteningly, it turns out to be the Dalai Lama. Which means one thing: All is not lost — at least not yet.

chrissie01 says
Come on, what are three million Muslim Turks doing in Germany?
We don’t need them. They need us and feed on our welfare systems without any return of the profits.
Except breeding.
It’s not their country, it’s ours. It’s not their history, its ours, good and bad.
They are here for financial reasons and openly despise us Germans.
Why even bother?
We would be better off without them.
If you feel discriminated, go where you belong.
nicu says
They always caused trouble right in the beginning !
Germany did not want or need them : we had People from Italy , Portugal and former Yugoslavia already and all was fine .
USA brought us the Turks for the Turkish airbase !
” We did not expect that ? “” they should have listened to people who knew Muslims already !
Angemon says
chrissie01 posted:
“Come on, what are three million Muslim Turks doing in Germany?”
Turning it into Turkey.
chrissie01 says
almost. To be precise: Turning it into a sort of Germany-subsidized Turkey which allows the usual arrogance, laziness and desorganization without any detriment to wealth or status, because the native German population is forced to compensate for it.
Christopher H says
Nailed it in One!
Andra says
The first Turk who came to Germany did not come because of the economic miracle. That was already fading by the time the first Turks came in. They came because the US demanded Germany to take them in. The US wanted Turkey to join the NATO and Germany was supposed to take over the Turks without jobs as the US didn´t want to have those.. It was an international deal with the worse end for Germany. One part of the deal was that only people from the Istambul area should come, but in reality uneducated people from Anatolia came – and nobody sent them back although they didn´t fit in the German working marked right from the beginning.
chrissie01 says
Exactly. And the first so-called ‘guest workers’ (HA! guests LOL) got labor contracts only for two years and were not allowed to bring wife and children plus children’s children.
Then they changed that.
In 1973 there was the so-calle ‘Anwerbestopp), which is a recruitment stop. All the rest that poured in came uninvited and unwanted.
vivienne Leijonhufvu (@goldaleijonhufv) says
There is enough money in the middle east outside of Israel for Muslim nations to provide for themselves. Frankly it is their nature to live like Mohammed, stealing, raping, committing atrocities and persecution. Saudi has enough money sloshing around to make loans to other Islamic nations rather than building mosques all over the world. Islam does not belong outside of Saudi Arabia really. Until Mohammed the Levant and the rest of near Asia was Christian and before Jewish or Pagan.
خَليفة says
It’s a matter of will. I recall some years back when Egypt offered Palestinians land in Egypt to for their own state, an area 5x larger than the Gaza Strip. The PA refused.
http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/21322/egypt-offers-abbas-land-sinai-future-palestinian-state/#5TD73G4qhzQGzfSw.97
Richard Paulsen says
Maybe historic sympathies Turkey and Germany resulted in accepting so many from Turkey? Like Nazism and Islam, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, cooperated during the WW2.
That together with Germany being a welfare state results in temptation to move to Germany and to let them in. Germany risking the democracy not only in Germany but also for all of Europe.
Democracy not being that deep in Germany.
Sweden was neutral during WW1 and WW 2 and believes that it can be today too, allowing in like Germany or even worse.
Both countries a temptation as being welfare states and open to Islamic immigration to a devastating degree. Some 35 million to the U.S.A. if the same as into Sweden.
Germany and Sweden wrongly believing islam and democracy mix together.
Polk1970 says
Sweden pretended to be neutral in WW II but did a lot to help Nazi Germany , as did fellow “neutral” Switzerland
They did however take in ,in a one-night operation, the majority of Denmark’s Jewsin a rescue operation with the Danish Underground
Richard Paulsen says
Yes that was great. There is a memorial in Denmark facing Sweden in remembrance of it.
Sweden not being attacked like others. Doing its best under the circumstancies.
” The white busses “, busses being organized by Count Folke Bernadotte saving some 30.000 prisoners in spring 1945 from concentration camps. In agreements with the Nazis. Delivering parcels.
No militarily cooperation with N-Germany. Coalition Government. Democratic parties. The Liberals, Conservatives, Socialdemocrats, Farmers party. Socialdemocratic Prime minister Per Albin Hansson.
Very weak defence. Like with most countries in these days except for N-Germany and Soviet. Being cut down during the 20ths. ” No more war ” politics. Being built up in the 30ths.
Sweden being forced to allow N-troops through western Sweden to occupied Norway. Ironore being sent to N-Germany. No chance to ignore demands.
People could escape here from neighboring countries. Met an elderly woman in the neighborhood from Norway coming here as a child during WW2. Lots of stories like that.
Swedish companies in Poland like ASEA, Ericssons and Tändsticksbolaget (Sweden matches company) had good cooperation with Poland between the wars leading their respective markets. Poland being built up after WW1.
During the wartime managers of the Swedish companies in Poland smuggled some 2.000 photos of how people was being badly treated by the Nazis to the UK. The Nazis found out. Three managers being imprisoned in the Nazi occupied Poland for smuggling the photos. Sentenced to death.
Two being freed and one stayed in prison till the end. There is a book about it named
” Warszawasvenskarna “, ” The Warsaw Swedes ” by Staffan Thorsell.
Their companies with some 50.000 employees leading the markets mostly being destroyed during the war. Just a few hundred empoyees left. The remainings being nationalized by Soviet. The companies tried to get compensation without any success.
Conscriptions, militarily building up, training all over Sweden 1939-1945. Luckily escaping being attacked.
Greatful to the U.S.A. for helping Europe during WW2 (And WW1) and after. No chance for Europe managing without. Very courageous and indispensable. Thank you U.S.A..
Vyx says
“they yearned to “live in the society” of the times of the Prophet Muhammad”
Yeah, I’m not so sure they literally mean this.
I think they really want to live in modern Germany- with all the modern conveniences– but be treated like conquering gods that are waited on hand and foot by the German infidels.
mortimer says
In other words, most Turks in Germany consider themselves Turks, not Germans, so they should live in Turkey.
In other words, most Turks in Germany consider themselves members of a supremacist, misogynistic Death Cult, so they should live in a Muslim country where they can be as damn backward as they want and kill everyone that doesn’t agree with them…but not In Germany.
Extradite…extradite…extradite.
mortimer says
The polls show that both Turks and Germans do not want to live together. Why does the government want to force them to live together against their will.
The people have to express themselves clearly POLITICALLY for the government to act. This opinion survey is VERY CLEAR imho.
Jay Boo says
DDR Museum
Murky Socialism
Stasi Merkel mania
Germany’s bleak future but this time under Allah
http://www.ddr-museum.de/en
jewdog says
It would help if the residents of Germany read Robert’s books and tuned into the New English Review once in a while. The perils here belie the bromides “what you don’t know won’t hurt you”, or “ignorance is bliss”, Just a word to the wise.
Diana says
Germans are terrified of Nazism. They will do anything to avoid repeating its horrors. Let’s at least give them credit for that much.
That is why they cannot see that Nazism is not the only malicious life-philosophy in the world.
That is why Germans who are alert to Islam are labelled “neo-Nazis”, the ultimate insult.
Hitler has not killed anyone since he died. Muhammad continues to kill people to this day.
Glenn says
We should have had the courage to excise the Prog-Marxist menace from our societies when it first reared it’s ugly head 100 years ago.
McCarthy tried, and after the fall of the Soviet Union, he was shown to have been right about just about all of his assertions. History is a bizarre thing for those of us who study it carefully – Kennedy was a good friend and supporter of McCarthy in those days.
In Europe, the socialists had much deeper tentacles and they spread their rot much earlier and wider. It’s really so tragic to watch the West just destroy itself. I’m not even sure a revolution could change things, we’ve corrupted the people too much and our institutions too deeply.
I console myself by asking “Why shouldn’t I live in a society in decline?” All democracies collapse due to factionalism and corruption, our’s is no different. I guess what makes me just so sad is that it’s all so unnecessary. We won, we dominated the world. We defeated the barbaric Muslims, the savage Nazis and even overcame the evil, vicious Marxists. But we can’t defeat those in our midst who who hat our own nation and themselves.
Worst of all? It’s the weakest, the least talented and the least moral among us who drive us there. We could wipe them from the board any time we choose. The likes of Obam and Hillary and Merkle are weak and soft. To be defeated by them is pathetic. Truly.
Mubarak says
It is Germany turning nazi again but in the cloak of Islam.
Ali Bey says
The “Abwehr” of John II Sobiesky shattered…
Ali Bey says
Sorry, it was John III.
WorkingClassPost says
This split between Turkish and German society kind of reflects Turkey as a whole, where the secular society is terribly threatened by Erdog’s islamist take-over.
He’s running a mini jihad within his own country, with non-stop propaganda and a deceptive moderate face, backed up by state sponsored terror threats and military/police enforcement.
His aim is for a Presidential system which looks uncomfortably like the Iranian model, with the Turkish President filling the Ayatollah’s shoes.
He’s making great efforts to convince Turkish youth that this is their future and that they really want it and will be happy under it, and they’re falling into line with 1.6 million in his ‘Youth’ wing, all calling for imposition of Sharia and the declaration of an islamic state.
What could go wrong with that?
Ammianus says
“Having awakened to reality just in time, he is now inveighing against the Islamization of Germany. It’s not Geert Wilders, not Marine Le Pen, not Magdi Allam, not Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Hearteningly, it turns out to be the Dalai Lama. Which means one thing: All is not lost — at least not yet.”
The shrewd lion of the left has accurately assessed that an Islamicized Europe will be less likely to support his efforts to resist the Sinification of Tibet. If he supports unbridled immigration in one place his moral argument against it in another evaporates. Whatever his motives, I agree that his support is welcome.