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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Raymond Ibrahim: ‘Mere Islam’ and the Munich Massacre

Jul 25, 2016 6:51 am By Raymond Ibrahim

Ali Sonboly74

A German-born 18-year-old of Iranian descent named Ali Sonboly went on a shooting spree last Friday.  He reportedly targeted young children and murdered nine.

This incident is a reminder that the ongoing terrorization of the West is not limited to the Islamic State (ISIS), “extreme” Wahhabi or Salafi interpretations of Islam, or terrorists posing as refugees entering the West.

Ali Sonboly was none of those.  He was born and raised in Germany and, based on his name and Iranian heritage, was most likely of Shia background.

But he was a Muslim.  He screamed Islam’s ancient war cry “Allahu Akbar” during his rampage and, less significantly, launched his attack on the one day of the week that many calculated Islamic attacks on non-Muslims occur: Friday.[1]

And that is the grand lesson of the Munich massacre.  Mere Islam—to borrow from C.S. Lewis’ famous book about the many commonalities shared by most Christian denominations—is responsible for the ongoing terrorization of the West.

If you doubt this, simply turn to a recent study.  It found that Muslims of all sects, races, and sociopolitical circumstances—not just “ISIS”—are responsible for persecuting Christians in 41 of the 50 worst nations to be Christian in: Shia Iran is the ninth worst nation, “Wahhabi” Saudi Arabia is 14th, while “moderate” countries like Malaysia and Indonesia are ranked 30 and 43 respectively.

The common denominator in all these nations is ISLAM—without qualifier.

Even ISIS’ abhorrent treatment of Christians and other non-Muslims is only an extreme reflection of what Muslims in general are doing to non-Muslims all around the world.  See “Muslim Persecution of Christians,” reports which I’ve been compiling every month for five years this month, and witness the nonstop discrimination, persecution, and carnage committed against Christians by “everyday” Muslims—from the highest authorities to the basest mobs.  Each monthly report (there are currently 58) contains dozens of atrocities, any of which if committed by Christians against Muslims would receive 24/7 blanket coverage.

While the media concoct any number of lies to dispel the Islamic nature of the Munich attack—the usual strategies, especially talk of “grievances,” are already being employed —the fact remains: for all the differences and tensions between Europe’s native and Muslim populations, the Christians being persecuted by Muslims are often identical to their persecutors in race, ethnicity, national identity, culture, and language. There is no political dispute, no land dispute. Nor do these disempowered and ostracized Christian minorities have any political power—meaning there are no Muslim “grievances” either.

So why are they hated and hounded? Because they are Christians—that is, non-Musliminfidels—and that’s the real reason Western people are being terrorized by Muslims, most recently (or at least as of this writing) in Munch.

Ugly or not, this truth, that mere Islam—not “ISIS,” “Salafism,” “Wahhabism,” or “Shiism”—promotes hate for and violence against non-Muslims will never be remedied until those in positions of leadership first acknowledge it.  And, with the notable exception of Donald Trump, they are very far from doing so.

Notes:

[1] Lamenting how Muslims are often riled against “infidels” during weekly Friday mosque sermons in Egypt, a Coptic Christian once said,  “Let me tell you … we [Christians] know that every Friday is a day of death; that the day after Friday, on Saturday, we’ll be carried to the morgue!”

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Comments

  1. Jaladhi says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 7:26 am

    Muslims and murderous mayhem go together!! Muslims can’t live without murdering infidels!!

  2. Sam Hawkins says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 7:38 am

    Yes, Munich shooter being Iranian had Shia Muslim background. Technically true. However, more likely than not he was brought up to be agnostic or atheist, in common with many exile Iranian families and unlike Arab migrant families.

    Never attended mosque, never prayed. No Islamist materials on his computer or in his room. Hated — with a vengeance! — the Sunni Muslims who tormented him in school, especially Turks: bullying, beat-downs, lunch-money robberies, mocking him for his physical abnormality. Obsessively researched and revered German spree killers. Picked fifth anniversary of Breivik’s massacre for his deed. Obsessively played “Counterstrike”. Styled himself a German ultranationalist, big fan of migration-critical party Alternative für Deutschland. In online chats, hated on Turks, chatted with antisemites. Two months inpatient psychiatric care. No friends, merely a few gamers whom he interacted with online but who disliked him intensely … and were scared of him. At least seven out of nine fatalities were Sunni Muslim. Et cetera, lots more.

    In short, the classic profile of a psychotic spree killer.

    Some of the information above comes via pseudonymous witnesses interviewed by news media. No independent verification that these people did know the killer and that their testimony can be trusted exists. But then, the same goes for the pseudonymous “Loretta”, the one person who claimed in a phone conversation with a CNN journalist that she was in the McDonald’s and heard the killer shout “allahu ackbar” as he shot his victims.

    • Jack Diamond says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 11:09 am

      German ultranationalist who hated Turks?

      This is a screenshot from his Facebook in 2015. That’s a Turkish flag.
      http://shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/as8-copy.jpg

      His clan, Sonboly/Sunbulli that is, come from Syria, and Turkey according to Shoebat.

      He doesn’t add up, but then the Germans have kept things from the public before.
      Allahu-akbar does add up. It adds up to Islam, every time.

      • Sam Hawkins says

        Jul 25, 2016 at 11:35 am

        Jack, that “article” on shoebat dot com is total garbage.

        • Jack Diamond says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 11:42 am

          so the Facebook pic is faked?

          not saying you are wrong about this particular shooter, I simply don’t know yet.

        • Jay Boo says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 11:50 am

          Sam couldn’t you explain why you discredit the Shoebat link other than saying “garbage”?

          After all, you went to great length to explain away Islam in a style that appears to shout (objective perspective). Maybe you are not being as objective as you appear to be in that first comment.

        • خَليفة says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 12:47 pm

          Good work JackDiamond and JayBoo

        • Mazo says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 1:29 pm

          Jay Boo is the same imbecile who called Kurdish SDF forces as “Syrian rebels”, who are enemies of the SDF.

          I personally know secular Shia Iranians who moved to the west. They are chronic alcoholics and never pray at all.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 3:27 pm

          Mazo posted:

          “Jay Boo is the same imbecile who called Kurdish SDF forces as “Syrian rebels”, who are enemies of the SDF.”

          Citation needed

          “I personally know secular Shia Iranians who moved to the west. They are chronic alcoholics and never pray at all.”

          And I personally know the Queen of England.

        • Champ says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 6:48 pm

          Sam wrote:

          Tell you what, @marc. Cancel my posting privileges on JW please. Too many fucking asshole idiots in the comments section. Carry on … but without me. Thx & gl.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Oh brother …

          Just stop posting comments.

          And of course Sam couldn’t leave without these parting words …”too many fucking asshole idiots in the comments section.”

          Gosh it must be lonely when you’re the only who’s right about everything, lol!! ..sorry, that made me laugh 😀

        • Champ says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 7:04 pm

          *Excellent* points from Jay Boo & Jack Diamond!

        • marc says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 8:48 pm

          @Sam I happen to agree with the FB profile and the story at shoebat, you can’t find another source. I’d go even further with this one, I’d say it was photoshopped, a total fake, that aside, we do have the involvement of an afghan kidjadi who has been arrested, possible he was used by a jihadi without knowing it also.
          With lying authority and complicit media, who knows for sure what went on with that one event, the other 3 recent ones, not so easy to cover up.
          The problem is Sam, although you are probably right here, you made no case, you just started ranting, I’d like to have seen you make the case of why there isn’t a screenshot showing a url? it would be easy enough to check an archive or a cache, claims of links to x and y, but no screenshots showing the friendship on FB. The faked profile picture is a cropped version of the first image released by the media, what’s the chances he had that as a FB profile picture, no one would choose a picture where you are looking off to the side like that.
          This is not a court of law, but you can make a case that can open a discussion, rather than throwing your dummy out because no one will listen to your demand that you are right with no reasoning attached. Personally I’d be sorry to see you go, you’re often on the mark.

        • gravenimage says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 4:32 pm

          Mazo is insulting Anti-Jihadist Jay Boo, but does not explain why “secular” Muslims are screaming “Allahu Akbar!” as they slaughter their victims.

          Note, also, that Muslim supremacist Mazo slams all non-observant Muslims as “alcoholics”. Bloody Jihad, though, does not appear to offend him at all.

        • gravenimage says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm

          I have a great deal of respect for Walid Shoebat, but no one is infallible. From what I have been able to gather, it looks as though the FB page was altered after the fact.

    • underbed cat says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 1:21 pm

      In case you don’t know they market themselves and leave behind contradictory clues so they can kill and it does not harm the movement of the religion of peace. You know like shave your beard, don’t go to mosques and make sure the left behinders will speak about it.

    • gravenimage says

      Jul 26, 2016 at 4:19 pm

      Oh, good grief, Sam. How many “German nationalists” scream “Allahu Akbar!” as they murder their victims?

  3. Angemon says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 7:55 am

    The common denominator in all these nations is ISLAM—without qualifier.

    Unfortunately, that’s a hard to digest truth for many people.

    • Jay Boo says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 11:28 am

      And yet,
      Fortunately — sites like Jihad Watch are revealing the truth.

  4. Nigel GFF says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 10:47 am

    “Let me tell you … we [Christians] know that every Friday is a day of death…”

    Thank you for your continuing insight.

    I’ve often wondered at the satanic mockery of Friday … a day of death. All Christians will be aware of the significance of that day – especially during Easter – but any Friday, one is encouraged not to eat meat, partly in remembrance of that bloody day 2000yrs ago. I suspect that God looks especially kindly on those who suffer persecution and death, in His name, on that day. Small consolation perhaps but it may afford strength to those who suffer ‘in His name’.

    • gravenimage says

      Jul 26, 2016 at 5:10 pm

      The most dangerous time for Infidels in Dar-al-Islam is Friday after Muslim prayers. Inattentive Kaffirs passing by Mosques as prayers have let out have been attacked and even murdered by pious Muslims.

      Here’s one horrifying story, from Bangladesh:

      “Man Beaten to Death in Mosque in ‘Religious Ritual’: ‘Kill the Kaffir!’”

      http://pamelageller.com/2010/05/man-beaten-to-death-in-mosque-in-religious-ritual-kill-the-kaffir.html/

    • Western Canadian says

      Jul 26, 2016 at 7:53 pm

      The original tradition was from Wednesday to Saturday, which is actually 3 days, as per the New Testament.

  5. Jay Boo says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 11:26 am

    Islam is a sociopathy always in search of any excuse to excuse its inexcusable filth.

  6. anno nimus says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 11:27 am

    Mssrs. Raymond Abraham, Spencer & Fitzgerald, may God bless you with vigorous health and longevity.
    This quote from Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s observation is quite relevant:
    since my forced exile in the West has now lasted four years and since my audience is a Western one, I think it may be of greater interest to concentrate on certain aspects of the contemporary West, such as I see them.
    A decline in courage may be the most striking feature that an outside observer notices in the West today. The Western world has lost its civic courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, in each government, in each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline in courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling and intellectual elites, causing an impression of a loss of courage by the entire society. There are many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life.
    Political and intellectual functionaries exhibit this depression, passivity, and perplexity in their actions and in their statements, and even more so in their self-serving rationales as to how realistic, reasonable, and intellectually and even morally justified it is to base state policies on weakness and cowardice. And the decline in courage, at times attaining what could be termed a lack of manhood, is ironically emphasized by occasional outbursts and inflexibility on the part of those same functionaries when dealing with weak governments and with countries that lack support, or with doomed currents which clearly cannot offer resistance. But they get tongue-tied and paralyzed when they deal with powerful governments and threatening forces, with aggressors and international terrorists.
    Must one point out that from ancient times a decline in courage has been considered the first symptom of the end?

    • Jean Terry says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 6:32 pm

      What a fascinating observation by Solzhenitsyn. It certainly is true, especially with the European Union and the UN. They would prefer to hate and blame Israel, but not point out the true enemy as then they would have to do something about it.

  7. David says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 1:27 pm

    Those in authority who are bound by oath to protect the people they serve need to be held accountable for their myopic and dimwitted views towards what constitutes crimes against the people by muslims of any and all stripes. They will surely fall along with everyone else when the demographics overbalance in favour of the muslims.

    • Jean Terry says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 6:34 pm

      Hopefully, here in the U.S. we will have a new president who is decisive and scares the heck out of these Muslim terrorists. And scares the countries that house them. No one is afraid of us any more and that certainly makes a huge difference in what these people do.

  8. Stephen Flack says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 2:16 pm

    Real Muslims are killed every day by ISIS.
    By ‘real’ I mean people who are religious and practice their faith and live in peace. The vast majority of Muslims are against ISIS.
    Why are 1 billion Muslims being blamed for the crisis in the Middle East? This website lumps them all into one box. Is this done on purpose or do you not understand that Wahhabis are different to Sufis for example?
    ISIS did not exist until after we bombed and destroyed the Iraqi state.
    I understand concerns about terrorism but blaming all ‘Muslims’ is bit like blaming all Irish Catholics for the IRA.
    Can someone explain why all Muslims are being blamed by this website please?

    • Robert Spencer says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 6:33 pm

      Mr. Stephen Flack:

      Please specify where this website has ever actually blamed all Muslims.

      • Stephen Flack says

        Jul 25, 2016 at 6:39 pm

        I have read a number of articles on the website and there appears to be no attempt to differentiate between the vast majority of Muslims, who are the same as most people, ie they want to work, eat and live in peace and people that are terrorists.
        I will continue to read your website to see if I am mistaken.
        Mr Flack

        • EYESOPEN says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 6:47 pm

          Dear Mr. Flack: I am not going to speak for Mr. Spencer – he can do quite well on his own. However, I am going to put a question to you.

          I have a delicious bag of M&Ms here. But I must warn you that, out of that bag of several thousand delicious pieces of candy, there are anywhere from 50 to 100 of them that are poisoned with a deadly poison that will KILL you. Neither you or I know which ones have been poisoned because they look like all of the other ones. Now I ask you, how many of those M&Ms are you going to eat? Or are you, like anyone with a brain in his/her head, simply going to throw the entire bag in the trash and not take the chance with sudden death?

          And don’t tell me that my metaphor is not accurate. It is EXACTLY the same as the risks taken on by ANY non-muzlim (sic – on purpose) country that takes in hordes of muzlims as “immigrants”, “refugees”, or what have you. Knowing well the doctrine of “al hijra” – or jihad by immigration – the stakes are EXACTLY the same.

        • Jack Diamond says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 7:56 pm

          Can’t speak for all Muslims, but the vast majority of Muslims believe in the immutable Qur’an and the Sunnah, the example of Muhammad. Do you know what they teach?
          Islam means submission. Submission to what? Do some research.

          You might then understand the problem, that Islam forbids Muslims from just eating, sleeping, working, and living in peace and permanent co-existence with non-Muslims.
          You might understand that Jihad is an obligatory doctrine in Islam that is far more than “terrorism.” It is about removing, by hook or crook, the obstacles to the spread of Islam and the commanded rule of Islam. This is not something invented by ISIS. This is something invented by Muhammad. This will always motivate some Muslims, to the great detriment of infidels.

        • Champ says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 8:04 pm

          Stephen Flack, consider that while not all muslims are terrorists, the vast majority of terrorists are muslim–the numbers simply don’t lie.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 3:40 pm

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “I have read a number of articles on the website and there appears to be no attempt to differentiate between the vast majority of Muslims, who are the same as most people, ie they want to work, eat and live in peace and people that are terrorists.”

          Ah, you’re one of those – *you*, not others, lump muslims together. You know this, you’re afraid others will find out and so you need to virtue signal by going the “not all” route – if the subject is terrorism and what’s being discussed is terrorists there’s no need to go “not all muslims are terrorists”, is there? Am I right?

          I bet that you also can’t differentiate between “islam” and muslims. Here, let me help you: if I say that islam mandates the subjugation of non-muslims, and point to islamic texts, commentaries and historical example I’m not saying that ALL muslims will engage in such actions. See the difference?

    • Jean Terry says

      Jul 25, 2016 at 6:37 pm

      One comment I have about that is if you will notice, the entire Middle East is Muslim except for Israel. Do they have freedom in those countries? Most practice Sharia Law. Also, the Koran tells them to do this. Some just choose to interpret the Koran as if it was a peace loving document. All Muslims are not guilty for sure but as Mr. Spencer said, they don’t blame all Muslims.

      • Stephen Flack says

        Jul 25, 2016 at 6:46 pm

        Unfortunately Muslims are not free in Israel.
        The other countries too often have western backed dictators so Muslims are not free their either.

        • Jack Diamond says

          Jul 25, 2016 at 8:18 pm

          They are not free but they are reasonable.

          No, they are not reasonable. They are as looney as you. Blame everyone but Muslims and Islam for the miserable state of dar al-Islam, and their bloody borders. Muslims are free to leave Israel if they’d prefer one of the 57 Islamic paradises. Think they will?

        • marc says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 12:49 am

          @Stephen Flack, “Unfortunately Muslims are not free in Israel.” and there we have it, the true purpose of your visit, a muslim of any flavour can have any position in the country of Israel, Government, Courts or Military, and you know what makes a muslim really free in Israel, more than any other in the region, is the ability to apostate, be gay, be whatever they want if they work hard and are loyal to the the country that protects their freedoms.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 3:44 pm

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “Unfortunately Muslims are not free in Israel.”

          Citation needed.

          “The other countries too often have western backed dictators so Muslims are not free their either.”

          Ah, so the source of the problems in the muslim world is “western backed dictators”. Got is. I’ve been told many times that the West wants Assad to go – are muslims free in Syria? Are they free in the islamic state, which seems to be free of “western backed dictators”? Were they free when they burst out of Arabia and conquered most of the known world? Were non-muslims living in the lands muslims conquered free?

        • Stephen Flack says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 5:17 pm

          The root of many problems in the middle east comes from western imperialism. The French and British before and after the First World War right up to the recent destruction of Iraq.

          Yes Muslims and Christians used to be free in Syria until the attempt to topple Asaad.

          Islamic state is not Islamic. They are off the scale and no one is safe within their borders. They need to be defeated.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 9:25 pm

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “The root of many problems in the middle east comes from western imperialism. The French and British before and after the First World War right up to the recent destruction of Iraq. ”

          You know why Columbus sailed West to the Americas and Vasco da Gama sailed around the Horn of Africa? Because both wanted to stay the hell way from the islamic world – things were s*** 500 years ago and they haven’t improved one bit. Trying to pin the roots of the s***storm that’s the islamic world on recent interaction with the Western world is simply nonsense. Also, holy s***, I should have played the lottery – talk about foreshadowing… Anyway, you have two sets of standards – Islamic imperialism in Spain and Sicily? Tolerance! British and French intervening in the ME? Evil imperialism!

          “Yes Muslims and Christians used to be free in Syria until the attempt to topple Asaad. ”

          At least the ones who didn’t want fair elections or a different ruler or were accused of being anti-Assad – those tended to disappear without a trace…

          Ayway, let’s see if I can follow your logic: muslims in Israel who can freely practice their faith, run for office, serve in the military, etc are not free while muslims in Assad’s Syria who lived under a dictator were free? Is that it? Why did they rebel then?

        • Champ says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm

          Stephen wrote:

          “Islamic state is not Islamic.”

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Stephen has just revealed his ignorance and needs to consider the truth:

        • gravenimage says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 6:43 pm

          Stephen Flack wrote:

          Unfortunately Muslims are not free in Israel.
          ………………………

          They have the same freedom to practice their faith that Jews and Christians do.

          If you mean they are not “free” to impose Shari’ah law and slaughter Infidels, this *is* true, though…

          More:

          The root of many problems in the middle east comes from western imperialism. The French and British before and after the First World War right up to the recent destruction of Iraq.
          ………………………

          What rot. Western “Imperialists” did not create violent Jihad or the systematic oppression of non-Muslims in Islam. That dates back to the earliest days of Islam–back to the practices of the “Prophet” himself.

          More:

          Yes Muslims and Christians used to be free in Syria until the attempt to topple Asaad.
          ………………………

          Where to start? Christians have long been oppressed, threatened, and brutalized in Syria–including under Assad. It is just that ISIS presents an even greater threat than does Assad. Assad has–to a point–allied with Christians because he is a minority Alawite, also under threat from majority Sunnis.

          And it is not the West that has spearheaded attempts to oust Assad, but mainstream Muslims.

          More:

          Islamic state is not Islamic. They are off the scale and no one is safe within their borders. They need to be defeated.
          ………………………

          Everything the Islamic State does is orthodox Islam. And while the Islamic State is the most horrific example of Islamic tyranny in the contemporary world, they are *hardly* the only one.

          Northern Nigerian Muslims kidnap girls, Sudan and Mauritania practice slavery, Saudi Arabia beheads its victims, Iran kills gay people, and Somalia and Iran stone women to death. There are many more horrific examples.

        • Stephen Flack says

          Jul 28, 2016 at 2:55 pm

          http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/you-dont-need-to-look-much-further-than-the-quran-for-proof-that-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-a6847031.html

    • Angemon says

      Jul 26, 2016 at 3:33 pm

      Stephen Flack posted:

      “This website lumps them all into one box. Is this done on purpose or do you not understand that Wahhabis are different to Sufis for example?”

      Hi Stephen. Do the wahabi and sufi schools of islamic jurisprudence differ regarding the status of women and non-muslims? Do wahabis or sufis teach that women are to have the same legal rights as men or that muslims are equal to muslims before the law? Do any of those schools teach anything different than to fight against non-muslims until they convert, pay the jizyiah or are killed?

      Oh, and there’s no lumping or blaming of all muslims going on here. Not from the authors, at least.

      • Stephen Flack says

        Jul 26, 2016 at 5:05 pm

        Yes there are differences.
        One barrier to understanding Islam for both Muslim and non Muslims is their understanding of the Koran.
        Arabic is a complex and a rich language and the Koran needs to be studied to get an understanding of it. Wahhabis can be literalists who have lost sight of the spiritual side of the religion. I know a Sufi who believes all people, Muslim and non Muslim will go to heaven. Some Muslims believe that only Muslims will be saved. Neither can say they are correct. It is their interpretation.
        Unfortunately Saudi money funds a Wahhabi understanding of Islam. Not all Wahhabis are extreme although extremism within Islam emanates from Wahhabism. Sorry it is complex and I am learning as well.
        English translations are usually very poor and reductionist and can be easily misquoted and misunderstood.

        • linnte says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 5:40 pm

          Unfortunately Stephen, the Qur’an says all non Muslims are going to hell. I would much rather take the Qur’ans words for it than yours, thank you very much.

        • gravenimage says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 7:20 pm

          Yet more from Stephen Flack:

          Yes there are differences.
          One barrier to understanding Islam for both Muslim and non Muslims is their understanding of the Koran.
          Arabic is a complex and a rich language and the Koran needs to be studied to get an understanding of it. Wahhabis can be literalists who have lost sight of the spiritual side of the religion.
          …………………………………

          There is little that is “spiritual” in Islam. What is “spiritual” about taking sex slaves and murdering non-believers?

          More;

          I know a Sufi who believes all people, Muslim and non Muslim will go to heaven. Some Muslims believe that only Muslims will be saved. Neither can say they are correct. It is their interpretation.
          …………………………………

          Well, isn’t that lovely? The fact is that the Qur’an is full of thousands of Ayats about the unbelievers being condemned to hell.

          The bigger problem is not that Muslims think Infidels will go to hell, but that they are happy to murder them and send us on our way.

          More:

          Unfortunately Saudi money funds a Wahhabi understanding of Islam. Not all Wahhabis are extreme although extremism within Islam emanates from Wahhabism. Sorry it is complex and I am learning as well.
          …………………………………

          What claptrap. Wahhbism is ugly, and is heavily backed by Saudi money–but it is *hardly* the only sect that takes its Islam seriously. Is this poster claiming that Shia Iran is hanging gay people, vowing the destruction of Israel, and stoning women to death due to Wahhabism? Absurd.

          More:

          English translations are usually very poor and reductionist and can be easily misquoted and misunderstood.
          …………………………………

          The usual–Every English translation–including those made by devout Muslim scholars–are somehow all wrong. And wrong, moreover, in just the same manner. Just absurd. If anything, those who read both English and Classical Arabic say that the original Arabic tends to be even harsher in tone than the translations.

        • Stephen Flack says

          Jul 28, 2016 at 2:52 pm

          http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/you-dont-need-to-look-much-further-than-the-quran-for-proof-that-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-a6847031.html

        • linnte says

          Jul 28, 2016 at 6:00 pm

          Mr. “Flack”, if you haven’t read the Qur’an or other Islamic texts you are buying what Muslims want you to hear. This load of HOGWASH that you posted is cherry picking verses. You are either an eejit, or a Muslim. Either way, read Islamic texts for yourself and be afraid. Be very afraid.

        • Stephen Flack says

          Jul 28, 2016 at 7:07 pm

          I love this website. I am going to rename you the ‘cherry pickers’. It is easy to select a group, a country or a faith and to look into its history to find bad things. In the case of Islam it was dominant for 900 years.
          Lets look at America. Where are the native Americans? Over a million people in US prisons and 85,000 in super max prisons. How many countries has the US invaded or bombed in the last 200 years? However, it also has many great things in its history too. Islam will also have examples both good and bad.
          I like debate and I am sorry that I have not had more time to respond to some of the
          comments on here, however, it is difficult to debate with people when they are so fixed in their views. From one cherry picker to the rest – Asalasm Alaikum

        • Angemon says

          Jul 29, 2016 at 10:15 am

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “I love this website.”

          More or less than you love the quran?

          “I am going to rename you the ‘cherry pickers’. It is easy to select a group, a country or a faith and to look into its history to find bad things. In the case of Islam it was dominant for 900 years.”

          No one here picked any cherries. You know who picked cherries? Pooyan Fakhraei, the author of the article you posted here several times.

          “Lets look at America. ”

          Last time I checked, “America” is NOT a religion. Why not compare islamic teachings with, for example, Buddhism or Zoroastrianism?

          “Where are the native Americans? ”

          Spread around US territory. Federally recognized tribes are classified as “domestic dependent nations” , with all the perks that entails – like building casinos in a place where gambling is outlawed.

          “Over a million people in US prisons and 85,000 in super max prisons”

          What’s your point? That criminals should be allowed to run free? Are you a BLM supporter or something? Because they are the ones who want to end law enforcement.

          “How many countries has the US invaded or bombed in the last 200 years?”

          Let’s see: there were the Barbary states, after muslims started unprovoked attacks on American ships, plundering their cargo and enslaving their crew. Japan during WWII after they attacked American soil. I could go on and on, but I believed I made my point – bombings and invasions usually have a reason behind it.

          “however, it is difficult to debate with people when they are so fixed in their views.”

          Ah, so you’re willing to acknowledge, after studing the quran, sirah, tafsir, etc., that islam is not a religion of peace? That it mandates warfare against non-muslims until they convert, pay the jyzyiah or die?

        • Jack Diamond says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 7:53 pm

          Hey Stephen, about your mystical, peaceful, never literal Sufis. Do you know who Al-Ghazali was? He was the greatest Sufi theologian and jurist. I want you to pay attention to something he wrote and see if it fits your narrative that Sufism is a whole different creature than Muslim “fundamentalism”?:

          “one must go on jihad (i.e., razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – i.e. Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked….One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

          “…the dhimmi [may never] mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [non-Muslim poll tax]….[O]n offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protuberant bone beneath his ear [lower jaw]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…[T]heir houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low…. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle is … wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. [Dhimmis must] wear [an identifying] patch, even women, and even in the [public] baths…[Dhimmis] must hold their tongue….”
          –Al-Ghazali (d. 1111). Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi’i, Beirut, 1979, pp. 186, 190-91; 199-200; 202-203.

          Could this have been written by al-Baghdadi or bin Laden or Khomeini?

          Fact check, Stephen. The Sufi mystics, besides loving to dance and go into trances, also loved jihad warfare and imposing dhimmitude on non-Muslims! Al Ghazali inspired the Ottoman jihads in Asia Minor. The Sufi rulers of the early Moghal era in India presided over unthinkable massacres. The Shi’ite theocracy in Iran, had their shari’a—based dhimmitude system created by a Sufi, Sultanhussein Tabandeh. Do you remember the Beslan massacre of schoolchildren? Sufi Naqshbandi leader, Shamil Basayev. Seeing a pattern here?

          The Islamic State is quintessential Islam. I defy you to show me something un-Islamic about it.

        • Jack Diamond says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 8:06 pm

          try this:
          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/02/bostom-sufism-without-camouflage-beyond-stephen-schwartz

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 9:19 pm

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “One barrier to understanding Islam for both Muslim and non Muslims is their understanding of the Koran.”

          Are you not keeping up with current day events? The more a muslim knows about the quran, the more likely he is to kill non-muslims.

          “Arabic is a complex and a rich language and the Koran needs to be studied to get an understanding of it.”

          Why? There’s this thing called “translation”.

          “Wahhabis can be literalists who have lost sight of the spiritual side of the religion.”

          Here’s what I asked:

          Do the wahabi and sufi schools of islamic jurisprudence differ regarding the status of women and non-muslims? Do wahabis or sufis teach that women are to have the same legal rights as men or that muslims are equal to muslims before the law? Do any of those schools teach anything different than to fight against non-muslims until they convert, pay the jizyiah or are killed?

          Saying “wahabis are bad” answers none of those questions.

          “I know a Sufi who believes all people, Muslim and non Muslim will go to heaven.”

          Oh, you know a nice muslims – therefore all muslims are nice. Got it.

          “Some Muslims believe that only Muslims will be saved. Neither can say they are correct. It is their interpretation.”

          That doesn’t bode well for islam and the quran, since it claims to be a perfectly crystal clear book.

          “Unfortunately Saudi money funds a Wahhabi understanding of Islam. Not all Wahhabis are extreme although extremism within Islam emanates from Wahhabism.”

          Again, see what I asked above. Trying to reduce islamic terrorism to “those damn wahabis” is deceitful and dangerous.

      • Stephen Flack says

        Jul 26, 2016 at 5:08 pm

        Islam has many examples of tolerance in its history from Sicily and Spain pre 15th century to modern day Jordan where Christians and Muslims live in peace.

        • Western Canadian says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 8:08 pm

          You are either a muslim troll, or an utter and total fool, ignorant beyond belief of all things islamic. You have not offered one, not ONE single comment about islam that is not utter rot (including your reference to arabic as a ‘rich’ language…. it is not, it is a very low and poor language). There was no golden age of islam in Spain, the writings of Christians and Jews who lived under muslim domination at the time, make that very clear. Eg. A Jew was placed in a position of authority over muslims, as he was the most qualified for the position…. The resultant riot by devout muslims over this inexcusable insult against them and against islam, resulted in the murders of 3,000 and more Jews, and the theft of destruction of their property.

          The only way to live in ‘peace’ with muslims, is to accept the status of a door mat, to allow them to abduct, rape and ‘marry’ your daughter, allow them to take your property, allow them to degrade and debase you, as you pay them extortion money to be allowed to live under their heel.

          Study the islamic invasion of India. It tells you ALL you need to know about the crime against humanity called islam.

        • Angemon says

          Jul 26, 2016 at 9:20 pm

          Stephen Flack posted:

          “Islam has many examples of tolerance in its history from Sicily”

          Details needed.

          “and Spain pre 15th century”

          Like, for example, in Granada, where in 1066 the first pogrom of Jews in Europe was recorded? Guess who descended on the Jewish quarters and slaughtered thousands of Jews? And guess the reasons?

          More “islamic tolerance” in Spain:

          http://libro.uca.edu/martyrs/cm2.htm

          Perfectus, who served at the basilica of St. Aciscius just outside the city walls, was stopped one day on his way to market by a group of Muslims.(6) Seeing that he was a priest, they asked him to explain the “catholic faith” and to share with them his opinions about Christ and Muhammed. Fearing that he would only provoke his audience, Perfectus declined. But when the Muslims swore to protect him, he proceeded, in Arabic, to decry Muhammed as one of the false prophets foretold by Christ and as a moral reprobate who had seduced the wife of his kinsman.(7)

          Though angered by the harsh attack, the Muslims respected their oaths and let Perfectus go on his way. But a few days later the priest ran into some of the same group, who no longer felt constrained by their earlier promise. Seizing Perfectus, they took him before the magistrate and testified that he had disparaged the prophet. As they led Perfectus to prison to wait out the holy month of Ramadân, he repeatedly denied his guilt. Only when he realized that his fate was sealed did he repeat his denunciation of Islam. On April 18, 850, Perfectus was decapitated before the crowds that had gathered to celebrate the end of the feast.(8)

          “to modern day Jordan where Christians and Muslims live in peace.”

          Not because of the tenets of islam – it’s running on the fumes of a faux Western-style society.

          Oh, BTW – islamic Spain and islamic Sicily are fine examples of islamic imperialism. Why do I have the feeling you’d sing a different tune if the issue were, for example, British or French interventions in the Middle East, which were far shorter?

    • gravenimage says

      Jul 26, 2016 at 6:16 pm

      Stephen Flack wrote:

      Real Muslims are killed every day by ISIS.
      ……………………………

      Muslims have been slaughtering other Muslims for almost 1400 years now–because they are deemed “apostates”, or “heretics”, or “insufficiently Islamic”, or merely because they are rivals for power.

      There is even a specific Islamic doctrine that covers this–“Takfir”–whereby Muslims may be declared virtual non-Muslims, and hence fair game for slaughter, just as if they were Infidels.

      This practice *hardly* marks ISIS as not being Islamic.

      More:

      By ‘real’ I mean people who are religious and practice their faith and live in peace. The vast majority of Muslims are against ISIS.
      ……………………………

      Would that this were true. Al Jazeera–hardly “Islamophobic”–found these results:

      “81% Of Al Jazeera Arabic Poll Respondents Support Islamic State”

      http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

      This hardly shows a “vast majority” of Muslims being against ISIS.

      Even more to the point, though, is *this*–Islam enjoins Muslims to wage violent Jihad in order to impose brutal Shari’ah law–how many observant Muslims oppose *that*? Virtually none of them. And how could they? These are key tenets of Islam.

      Some Muslims may oppose ISIS itself–they may be Shia, who are considered “heretics”, or they may believe that someone other than ISIS and al-Baghdadi should be in charge of the Caliphate–such as themselves, perhaps.

      Even in the United States, though, a majority of Muslims agree with the imposition of Shari’ah law.

      ISIS is just one Jihad group–there are many, many more.

      More:

      Why are 1 billion Muslims being blamed for the crisis in the Middle East? This website lumps them all into one box. Is this done on purpose or do you not understand that Wahhabis are different to Sufis for example?
      ……………………………

      Of course Sufis are different from Wahhabis. Wahhabis and other Salafists consider Sufism a “degenerate” form of Islam and frequently murder its devotees. But this should *not* lead people to assume that Sufis reject violent Jihad themselves:

      http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2005/05/sufi_jihad.html

      Both groups believe that Infidels should be oppressed and killed.

      Some Muslims are lax, and do not follow all the tenets of their faith. Some may drink, some may eat during Ramadan, and some may not engage in violent Jihad. This does not change the faith itself, though.

      Another salient point: while a few Muslims consider waging violent JIhad “Fard Ayn”, or incumbent on every observant Muslim–many more believe we have not reached that point yet, and that Jihad is still “Fard Kalifa”–meaning that as long as *some* members of the Ummah are waging Jihad, that things are covered.

      Many Muslims, also, support Jihad in other ways–through Zakat funding, for instance, or through “Jihad of the pen”, or “Jihad of the tongue”–that is, spreading Islam through Da’wa.

      More:

      ISIS did not exist until after we bombed and destroyed the Iraqi state.
      ……………………………

      ISIS was not created by American or coalition forces, nor is it indicative of Western values. One might argue that the ouster of strong man Saddam Hussein gave pious Muslims the opportunity to found a Caliphate and impose Islamic law there–but they did not create the Muslim desire to form a Caliphate or to impose Islamic law.

      Many other Islamic groups–such as the Muslim Brotherhood–share this aim.

      More:

      I understand concerns about terrorism but blaming all ‘Muslims’ is bit like blaming all Irish Catholics for the IRA.
      ……………………………

      There is nothing in Christianity that condones terrorism–would that this were true of Islam. Also, the IRA has now renounced terrorism–would that this were true of Jihad terrorists. instead, Jihad terror is *growing* around the world.

      More:

      Can someone explain why all Muslims are being blamed by this website please?
      ……………………………

      As Robert Spencer notes, this is not the case at all–it is creates a straw man to claim that it is. As noted, there are many Muslims who are not currently engaged in waging Jihad.

      Interesting, though, that you would consider regarding Muslims as Mujahideen as “blame”, since it is not regarded that way in Islam at all.

      • Stephen Flack says

        Jul 28, 2016 at 2:54 pm

        http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/you-dont-need-to-look-much-further-than-the-quran-for-proof-that-islam-is-a-peaceful-religion-a6847031.html

  9. overman says

    Jul 25, 2016 at 5:16 pm

    So, they’ve now arrested a possible accomplice, thus ejecting the ‘Mentally ill, Lone Wolf’ scenario – again.

    “Munich: Police Arrest 16-Year-Old Afghan With Possible Connection to Mall Attack That Killed 9
    The teen is being investigated for not reporting a planned crime and as a possible accomplice to gunman David Ali Sonboly, 18, who killed himself after Friday’s shopping center attack, police said.”

  10. linnte says

    Jul 26, 2016 at 2:07 am

    A Muslim by any other name would still smell as nasty!

  11. gravenimage says

    Jul 26, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    Raymond Ibrahim: ‘Mere Islam’ and the Munich Massacre
    …………………………

    Exactly. One clues is that the Islamic State was celebrating this savagery until they realized that the perpetrator was the wrong ‘flavor’ of Jihadist.

    But pious Muslims everywhere oppress and murder both Infidels and each other.

    ISIS is terrible–but they are *hardly* the only threat. It’s all about Islam.

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