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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Kosovo: Muslims set fire to Orthodox cathedral, use it as a toilet

Sep 13, 2016 2:17 pm By Robert Spencer

Had Christians done this a mosque, it would have been international news; no one, however, will take any particular note of this.

orthodox-cathedral-kosovo

“Orthodox Cathedral Burned,” by Abbot Tryphon, The Morning Offering, September 11, 2016:

Early Saturday morning, Albanian Muslims in Pristina, Kosovo, set fire to the Orthodox Cathedral, and immediately after the fire, started using it as a toilet. Once again, the Orthodox heartland of Serbia is suffering the results of the Western Powers hatred of Orthodoxy. Since the Albanian Muslims took possession of this Orthodox land, hundreds of churches and monasteries have been burnt to the ground.

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Filed Under: Featured, Kosovo, Muslim persecution of Christians, Serbia Tagged With: kosovo, Pristina


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Comments

  1. Kumi Ho says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 2:27 pm

    We are still reaping the rewards of our meddling in the Balkans.

    • Christianblood says

      Sep 13, 2016 at 8:10 pm

      Kumi Ho posted

      (..We are still reaping the rewards of our meddling in the Balkans..)

      Yeshche net! Not yet! Given what America and Nato did to the Serbian Christians when they supported Bosnian and Kosovar muslim jihadists and bombed Serbian Christians, America and Nato are not yet reaping the rewards of their jihadist support in that region. God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!

      • Greg says

        Sep 13, 2016 at 9:01 pm

        Wellington,,, you have been brainwashed to the nth degree it was the West that wanted to disintegrate Yugoslavia and the Germans the English and the Americans managed to do just that ,,, do me a favor and read some more,, the serbs have been exonerated in so many fronts it’s unbelievable and your belief in propaganda is unbelievably. ””””””’. !!
        Jbg Wellington !!

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 12:24 am

          Greg wrote:

          Jbg Wellington !!
          …………………….

          Repulsive–Wellington is a respected poster here.

          And I don’t believe that kind of language is acceptable here. “Jbg” It is a word in Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin which means “JEBIGA”. The English translation is “F*ck you”.

        • Pal says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 5:32 am

          Greg, that’s nor entirely correct, I think.
          It’s not that “West wanted to disintegrate Yugoslavia” as well as “Germany and Britain wished to do so” but rather that there was a constant will from within.
          Yugoslavia was not only Serbia. Yugoslavia was a creation out of Serbian will of dominance at least in the Western Balkans supported by the winning Allied powers of WWI and WWII ‘because of’ its siding to them (even, similarly, France was ‘allowed’ to reoccupy Algeria, China – Tibet, and Russia – to keep Eastern Europe for half a century).
          Yugoslavia had five (5) nations occupied and oppressed by Serbia.
          Yugoslavia was a small Soviet Union. The way communist Russia submitted so-called 15 republics, the same manner Serbia subjugated them since 1918.
          All they wished their freedom and independence from Serbia. Sooner or later.
          Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:54 am

          Greg posted:

          “it was the West that wanted to disintegrate Yugoslavia”

          Citation needed.

          “and your belief in propaganda is unbelievably. ””””””’. !!”

          Lol!

        • Wellington says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 4:58 pm

          Greg: What nonsense you have spouted. The West didn’t want Yugoslavia to dissolve, rather the non-Serbians in the artificial construct which was Yugoslavia did. In fact, the West was quite wary and worried about a dissolving Yugoslavia. For instance, James Baker, Bush 41’s Secretary of State, very publicly counseled against such a dissolution when it was in its beginning stages.

          You know or should know that people likes the Slovenians and Croatians thought that Yugoslavia was a Serb-dominated state, even though Tito was of Slovenian and Croatian descent. Yes, surely you know at least this much. But then again maybe you don’t.

          I would add that in the dissolution of Yugoslavia in the 1990s the Serbs were made the fall guy when, in fact, there was enough blame to go all around. I also was against an independent Kosovo. This creation was, to put it mildly, a mistake and should not have been supported by America and other Western nations.

          Think geopolitically, Greg. Think large-scope and not parochially. Give it a shot. And if you respond to this post of mine, spare the insults and augment real arguments.

        • Tom Davis says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 10:13 am

          Thank you Wellington!

          The history of the Yugoslavs in the last hundred years is abysmal: Albanians killing, Croats killing, Serbs killing, and for what? Nothing! The fact is, if the Serbs hadn’t gone on a murderous rampage in the 1990’s the Albanian atrocities we now see in Kosovo would possibly not happened, because there would have been no NATO intervention. We should hope that people would learn lessons, but some posters here leave little room for that hope.

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 13, 2016 at 11:46 pm

        “Christianblood” wrote:

        SHAME ON the JIHADIST-LOVING AMERICA!…

        God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!
        ………………………..

        Once again, “Christianblood” is calling for Muslims–with the supposed blessing of “God”–to destroy the West.

        He wants to see us *fall to Islam*.

        He was banned for a month a couple of weeks ago here at Jihad Watch–but he has no more respect for Jihad Watch than he does for anything else in the free West. Here he is, back spewing his pro-Jihad viciousness.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:09 am

          @ gravenimage

          Graven, I like your posts and criticisms which I see as fair and balanced in this context but in this one you are bit exaggerating Graven! First, I was not banned for a month and I never called muslims to destroy the West in this thread. Have a great day my friend!

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:50 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “and I never called muslims to destroy the West in this thread. ”

          Keywords being “in this thread”…

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:04 pm

          Christianblood wrote:

          @ gravenimage

          Graven, I like your posts and criticisms which I see as fair and balanced in this context but in this one you are bit exaggerating Graven! First, I was not banned for a month and I never called muslims to destroy the West in this thread. Have a great day my friend!
          ……………………………….

          Well, thank you for your kind words re my comments, Christianblood.

          But no–I am *not* exaggerating about your having been banned for a month. Here are Marc Louis’s exact words from August 18:

          @Christianblood: so you have no specific evidence they are connected, you just want me to read a book and take your word for it, lazy is what i think, i really don’t have time for this, it’s easier for me to just ban you for a month, try and circumvent the ban and I get nasty, if you have trouble posting again in a month, and you want back in, ping me an email, you can use the form on the sidebar to the right.

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/cnn-turns-to-hard-left-hate-group-southern-poverty-law-center-to-define-sharia#comment-1505454

          Marc refers to the month-long ban later in the same thread.

          Now, it has indeed been almost a month now–but you were back posting here on August 31–just thirteen days after the ban and clearly well short of a month:

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/passage-of-quran-to-be-read-at-funeral-of-woman-killed-by-muslim-screaming-allahu-akbar#comment-1513018

          As for your posting this, above:

          God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!
          ……………………………….

          You have been quite clear as to what you have meant by this–that you seek the destruction of the West at the hand of Muslims. “Ex-muslim” and “African Infidel”–who turned out to be the same poster–were permanently banned on that same thread.

          “Ex-muslim” wrote on a previous thread, “May God punish you in the hands of Islamic jihadists that you love and support, you Christ-haters!”, to which you replied, “Excellent and very well-said, Ex-muslim!”.

          As Angemon notes, you may not have been completely explicit as to your meaning here on this thread, but you certainly have been in the recent past.

          Unlike “Ex-muslim” and “African Infidel”, you do actually choose to oppose Jihad from time to time, Christianblood–but, sadly, it is all too rare an occurrence. Far more common is you voicing your hatred of the West and your desire to see her destroyed.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:38 am

          gravenimage posted:

          “Unlike “Ex-muslim” and “African Infidel”, you do actually choose to oppose Jihad from time to time, Christianblood”

          Selectively opposes, based, seemingly, on geopolitical grounds. You’ll see Christianblood ranting about the Saudis and “wahabism” (because apparently “wahabism” is the “bad” islam, the “hijack” and “perverted version” I keep hearing about) but you won’t see him give Iran the same scrutiny. I’ve asked him, on several occasions, how is shiite islam different from “wahabism” when it comes to the treatment of women, gays and religious minorities. Still waiting for an answer based on shiite texts and teachings. And, of course, he makes himself scarce when the topic is persecution of Christians or Zoroastrians in Iran.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:31 pm

          Graven wrote:

          As Angemon notes, you may not have been completely explicit as to your meaning here on this thread, but you certainly have been in the recent past.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Precisely. Those familiar with “Christianblood” and his evil comments know this to be true, Graven.

        • marc says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:36 pm

          @champ, @gravenimage CB is on probation, please leave this one as it is and let them as Charlotte Bronte said “Give him enough rope…”

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:21 pm

          Marc posted

          (..@champ, @gravenimage CB is on probation, please leave this one as it is and let them as Charlotte Bronte said “Give him enough rope..)

          Thanks Marc!

          Marc, “Champ” seems to be so upset with me in this thread because of my criticism of the American/Nato pro-islamic policies in the Balkans. I thought he/she would be reasonable and discuss the issue openly in a fair and balanced manner. Thanks!
          without calling me banned for good!

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:45 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Marc, “Champ” seems to be so upset with me in this thread because of my criticism of the American/Nato pro-islamic policies in the Balkans. ”

          This is demonstrably false:

          Champ says

          September 14, 2016 at 7:31 pm

          Graven wrote:

          As Angemon notes, you may not have been completely explicit as to your meaning here on this thread, but you certainly have been in the recent past.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Precisely. Those familiar with “Christianblood” and his evil comments know this to be true, Graven.

          What I noted was your specifically suspicious denial: “I never called muslims to destroy the West in this thread”. “In this thread” – you’ve made that particular desire clear elsewhere. I suspect your attempt to to dress your anti-Western (and especially anti-American) vein as being “criticism of the American/Nato pro-islamic policies in the Balkans” (fancy way to describe pinning everything on the US and Nato, as you have done with other, non-Balkan matters) won’t fool anyone who is minimally acquainted with your posting history.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 12:17 am

          Will do, Marc.

        • epistemology says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:23 pm

          This is a very unpleasant discussion, you’re right to point this out, we shouldn’t offend each other, unless there are Muslims. Wellington is right when he says Europe failed miserably but you all forget another player in this bad game, the Saudis. In former Yugoslavia there were lots of Muslims who ate ham and drank Slivovitz (plum brandy) with their Serbian neighbors, they were assimilated. But when the turmoil started the Saudis supported the Muslims and proselytized reversing the assimilation, they had a lot of mosques built and even paid girls’ studies when these girls wore head diapers. They’re the true culprits. European matters are none of their business, but they always interfere with their bloody money.

          There were also some hardliners in Bosnia Muslims like Izetbegovic who wrote the ‘Islamic Declaration’ in 1970 under Tito’s rule stating he only wanted to live under sharia law. Unlike Milosevic he was never indicted in the Hague. Double standards in the Europe.

          Kosovo is Serbian heartland there are so many so many Orthodox churches and monasteries and the field of blackbirds. The Serbs are wonderful people, they’re true freedom lovers and fought against the Nazis and the muzzies which are two of a kind.

      • marc says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 12:48 am

        @CB, you are collectively, as a monolith blaming “America”, ignoring the actual historical facts of how the conflict unfolded, the lying media in the West led them to follow NATO, which I agree was tragically biased toward the Serbs in the end, the how and the why is just not that simple. The Russians also played a part in how this unfolded, to ignore these details is disingenuous. You are in a forum, where the majority are probably fiercely patriotic, and also mostly onside, to refer to the monolith “America”, you include them, if you want to lower the tempo and have a more productive discussion, maybe you could address that.
        @Greg, you have resorted to ad hominems very quickly, they are not tolerated, if you can’t have a discussion without using them, keep quiet.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:57 am

          marc posted

          (..You are in a forum, where the majority are probably fiercely patriotic, and also mostly onside, to refer to the monolith “America”, you include them, if you want to lower the tempo and have a more productive discussion, maybe you could address that..)

          That is a good point! Thanks Marc!

        • DFD says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 12:22 pm

          To Marc:

          Indeed Marc, the situation there was, and to a large extent still is, extremely complex. The Serbians are exonerated in many instances, but there are also as many where they are not. This can be seen in what was Serbia’s open aggression against Croatia and other former Yugoslav republics. Though many Serbs were of course manipulated by propaganda; side note, it’s not just “our” ‘free media’ which is practising that. Personally I consider the Serbs to be a decent people, remember King Lazar? “Today we give up everything for Christ, and Christ for nothing!” When he and his troops faced the Ottoman hordes – at Kosovo! Giving Kosovo to the Muslims is not “just” a humiliation and a deliberate insult to the Serbs, it is that for all Christians.

          The horrible bit about the rape camps is true, but what is barely mentioned, if at all, is that that was started by the Bosnians/Muslims. Though, when the Serbs got the upper hand and it was pay-back time, the world paid attention and was outraged… Free media? Selective media would be a more appropriate term I think.

          Then, when emotions ran high and the killing was in full swing, on both sides, or all sides, the Serbs got cold feet and turned to their cultural and ethnic kinsfolk, the Russians. Who, of course responded to that – can you blame either? Still, I believe the real trigger were the Bosnians, the Muslims. Without them diplomacy might have been given a chance. But the more and the longer it went on, the more the hatred grew.

          The former Yugoslavia and its intensely violent break up can serve as an example to an answer Bismarck once gave to the question of why civil wars are so particularly vicious. He said that’s because they are being fought between neighbours and even relations, who all have grudges, dig them out and add new ones. Also, they know each others weaknesses and bad spots only to well.

          I think the details about Yugoslavia will take a long time to come out in full.

          On of the horrible truths is however that the main beneficiary of our (the west’s) actions were the Muslims – and I wonder, I wonder. It is most certainly true that these have been persecuting Christians ever since, as well as the hate attacks against churches and other Christian institutions. A personal friend of mine who served as a ‘peacekeeper’ in Kosovo is still angry when he speaks about it. They, and he himself, witnessed on numerous occasions Christians being harassed, beaten, thrown out of their homes, ethnically cleansed that is; as well as finding dead, mutilated Christians. He also witnessed on several occasions the destruction of churches and or their defiling. They were not allowed to interfere. I asked him if they were allowed to interfere if it would have been the other way round. His hands were twitching, fist clenching, he simply said: “You know the answers as well as I do.”

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 5:56 pm

          “Christianblood” agrees with Marc @September 14, 2016 at 7:57 am, that he needs to tone down his anti-American rhetoric, but then @September 14, 2016 at 8:22 am, he wrote this anti-American remark to me …

          See below this comment:

          Champ posted

          (..STOP telling God how to do His job. Your job is to pray for your enemies..)

          Hahaha! Champ, this is not the time to pray for enemies. It is time to be moved by righteous indignation, to seek justice and to speak the truth even when it hurts! God bless you!

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          “Christianblood” is ignoring what Marc advised, and in less than 30 minutes–after supposedly agreeing with Marc–he left this nasty anti-American reply to me. Clearly “Christianblood” hasn’t learned a thing and he’s obviously dismissing Marc. Nope, he isn’t going to change his anti-American rhetoric. Ban him for good this time.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 6:54 pm

          Champ you wrote:

          (..STOP telling God how to do His job. Your job is to pray for your enemies..)

          To which I responded:

          “this is not the time to pray for enemies. It is time to be moved by righteous indignation, to seek justice and to speak the truth even when it hurts! God bless you!”.

          Now, what is anti-American about my statement above that you are calling I be banned for good? I am wondering if you are even in your right mind Champ?! Anyway, God bless you and have a nice day!

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:35 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Now, what is anti-American about my statement above”

          Righteous indignation against what or whom? Or am I to believe that after months and months of calling for God to punish America and the West you suddenly found a new pet hatred?

          “I am wondering if you are even in your right mind Champ?!”

          Champ is fine – which is more than I can say about you, given your general attitude, demeanour and lack of coherent speech.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:07 pm

          Christianblood wrote:

          I am wondering if you are even in your right mind Champ?!
          ……………………..

          And now Christianblood is insulting Champ. Nasty stuff.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:22 pm

          Of course I’m in my “right mind” …this insult is just another attempt to deflect attention away from his own evil anti-American remarks which are effectively calls to incite violence against Americans—–again. “Christianblood” has made these comments before, and was banned for doing so, and now he’s making them again.

          Only this time he’s claiming that Gravenimage is “exaggerating” and that I’m not in my “right mind.”

          So apparently Gravenimage and I are BOTH seeing things. Right.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:38 pm

          Marc, at first I thought that “Christianblood” was perhaps a changed man, but clearly he is NOT.

          I want “Christianblood” banned because his comments incite violence toward Americans, not because I’m simply “fiercely patriotic.”

        • Champ says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 4:03 pm

          Angemon wrote:

          Champ is fine – which is more than I can say about you, given your general attitude, demeanour and lack of coherent speech.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Thank you, Angemon!

          Indeed, I think that “Christianblood” is projecting here, and he’s the one who’s not in his “right mind” at all. And his wrongheaded attitudes and comments are not only disturbing, but dangerous. He needs to be banned and pronto.

      • Champ says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 2:05 am

        Christianblood wrote:

        “God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!”

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        STOP telling God how to do His job. Your job is to pray for your enemies, not hope and pray that God would bring them harm. You’re one very mixed-up guy with that kind of evil attitude.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:22 am

          Champ posted

          (..STOP telling God how to do His job. Your job is to pray for your enemies..)

          Hahaha! Champ, this is not the time to pray for enemies. It is time to be moved by righteous indignation, to seek justice and to speak the truth even when it hurts! God bless you!

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:52 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Champ, this is not the time to pray for enemies.”

          Yeah, because what do Christians care about what the Bible says, right?…

          “ It is time to be moved by righteous indignation, to seek justice”

          Romans 12:19

          “and to speak the truth even when it hurts!”

          Except, of course, when it hurts you.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:56 am

          Indeed.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 5:43 pm

          “Christianblood” was banned for a couple of weeks due to his anti-American rhetoric; yet here he is promoting the same old rubbish AGAIN, and in no time flat. Seems he has learned NOTHING from this little slap on the wrist.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 6:11 pm

          Champ

          It is not anti-American to point out the very bad job that America and Nato did when they bombed Serbia, backed muslim jihadists in Bosnia and Kosovo and created two islamic states in Eastern Europe. Is it?
          Do you care or even know or have you any idea of what happened to hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Metohija???

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:34 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Do you care or even know or have you any idea of what happened to hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Metohija???”

          Do you? I’m asking because you have a history of trying to use the death and suffering of innocents to justify your anti-West vitriol.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 6:48 pm

          Not only is “Christianblood” trying to change the subject by questioning me, but he’s attempting to deflect attention away from his evil anti-American remarks—-all right here in black ‘n white.

          “Christianblood” is a weasel and a liar who’s trying to avoid and marginalize his own hateful anti-American comments, AND the worst thing he’s doing is inciting others–even God–to bring bodily harm to Americans. This poster needs to be banned.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 6:59 pm

          Champ

          If you don’t like my occasional comments please don’t read them!

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:10 pm

          “Christianblood wrote:

          Champ

          If you don’t like my occasional comments please don’t read them!

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          No, I will NOT ignore your comments—-which incite violence toward Americans.

          You are attempting to foment anger and violence and you need to be banned. Period. Ignoring your evil comments is the LAST thing I intend to do.

        • Kay says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:36 pm

          @ Champ
          Thank you!
          I appreciate your efforts (and I don’t have the energy for it).

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:38 pm

          You’re welcome, Kay.

        • daniel sebold says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:45 pm

          Who is this God guy, anyway?

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:00 pm

          Champ

          It is okay if you read my occasional comments but please understand that I will from time to time keep criticising America and the West (sometimes harshly) for their extreme and detestable pro-islamic, pro-jihadist and anti-Christian policies.

        • marc says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:02 pm

          Christianblood said: “I will from time to time keep criticising America and the West”

          And there you go again with your monolith, you can’t say I didn’t try.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 10:05 pm

          To Christianblood- I have read the comments associated with this article and I see that you are one of the commenters who gets into a row with many of the commenters here, most of whom are politically smarter and more astute than I am. I can understand your righteous indignation at God because I have felt that emotion as a Christian lady against my Creator, Lord, Savior, and Sanctifier a few times in my life. But I do not understand your hatred of Western people. I was not notified by anyone in my government (I live in Brooklyn, NY, USA) that my president was going to give billions to Iran. Had I been asked if Obama should do this, I would have said “Hell no.” As I am a retired NYC teacher, my union, the United Federation of Teachers, is staunchly backing Hillary Clinton. If I had been polled as to who the union should endorse, I would have said “Ted Cruz”. So what I am getting at is that people who live in Western nations are often not consulted about that which their government agrees upon to do in the way of foreign policy. I believe Mark Twain is credited with this excellent adage about people and their governments: “Loyalty to your nation—always. Loyalty to your government—when it deserves it.” I hope I have given you something positive and constructive to think about. And I would like to know from you, please tell the truth, are you a Christian or do you have some other religion and you just use that word for your moniker? (I post under my own name.) Thank you.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:49 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Champ

          It is okay if you read my occasional comments”

          As if Champ – or anyone else, for that matter – needed your permission to read comments you made made on a forum publicly accessible…

          “but please understand that I will from time to time keep criticising America and the West”

          That would be a first, seeing how, generally speaking, you simply spew anti-Western (especially anti-American) propaganda. Where’s the criticism?

          “for their extreme and detestable pro-islamic, pro-jihadist and anti-Christian policies.”

          Funny how your standards only apply to the West – I haven’t read much (if anything at all) from you on Russia’s enabling of jihadi Iran. But I guess that as long as they’re shouting “Death to America” you can pretend they have a nice version of islam that doesn’t contradict values like equality of all before the law…

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:12 pm

          And there you go again with your monolith, you can’t say I didn’t try.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Indeed, Marc.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:22 pm

          “Christianblood” wrote:

          Champ

          It is okay if you read my occasional comments but please understand that I will from time to time keep criticising America and the West (sometimes harshly) for their extreme and detestable pro-islamic, pro-jihadist and anti-Christian policies.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

          Criticising America and the West is the *least* of “Christianblood’s” offenses …

          For the umpteenth time, the reason I want “Christianblood” banned is due to his continued remarks inciting hatred and violence toward Americans, and NOT because he’s critical of America or the West.

          There is something wrong with “Christianblood’s” reading comprehension–or he’s deliberately deceiving the class. Methinks the latter is most likely.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:50 am

          Champ posted:

          “or he’s deliberately deceiving the class. ”

          Trying to, at least. Apparently he thinks he can get away with anything if he says he’s just “criticizing”.

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:37 pm

          Marc

          I will indeed criticise America and the West for their pro-islamic and anti-Christian policies where I see fit but I will be careful not generalise and try to be specific as you wisely suggested to me in your earlier post. I do admit and I sometimes get carried away and can sound exaggerating and generalising in my criticism and I will watch those.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:53 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “but I will be careful not generalise and try to be specific”

          This would be a novelty… You wouldn’t happen to be saying that just because you’re trying to look good in front of a staff member are you?

        • Christianblood says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 8:05 am

          Linde Barrera

          It is not only governments but even churches in the US, West, including the Pope and the Vatican are aiding and supporting muslims while ignoring Christians. Do you remember, the Pope going to a refugee camp in Lesbos, Greece, a few months ago and taking a punch of all-muslim refugee from the camp in his plane to Rome while totally ignoring Christians in the same camp? The same pro-islamic mentality pervades almost every inch in the Western fabric. It is like a powerful demonic power has a very strong spell on the West’s collective psyche!

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:59 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “Do you remember, the Pope going to a refugee camp in Lesbos, Greece, a few months ago and taking a punch of all-muslim refugee from the camp in his plane to Rome while totally ignoring Christians in the same camp?”

          Again beating the same dead donkey? How exactly do you think the trip was planned? That the Pope was free to move around? That he went and picked the “refugees” one by one? Or that the UNHCR did that work for him?

          “The same pro-islamic mentality pervades almost every inch in the Western fabric. It is like a powerful demonic power has a very strong spell on the West’s collective psyche!”

          You write this after you wrote:

          I will be careful not generalise and try to be specific as you wisely suggested to me in your earlier post.

          You went out of your way to generalize after you specifically said you were no longer generalizing. It’s almost as if you’re trying to mock people here. “Hey, guys, look – these people in JW are very stupid. Check it out, I’m going to generalize after I was warned to stop doing it. No, it’s OK, I’ll just say I’m criticizing policies and s*** – they fall for it every time”.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Sep 20, 2016 at 12:41 am

          To Christiaanblood- Thank you for your response to my questions to you. The examples you cited are true, but unfortunately, I have no answer as to why they are true. And they greatly vex me. How about this example: I know a gentleman who is a Pakistani Christian. He and his wife and baby daughter had to flee Pakistan due to Islamic persecution. They flew to Thailand. There are over 11,000 Pakistani Christians in Thailand. Who is helping them? Not the UNHCR! (United Nations High commission on Human Rights.) And this man told me he can only go out at night because if he is questioned by the police he can be put in a detention center because his passport expired, leaving him with no up to date ID. These Pakistani Christians deserve to go to a country that values them. He asked me to find out about church sponsorship. I am trying but have not received a reply yet. I also called my congressman, and am waiting for a reply. So it is frustrating. Keep praying for God to make a way where there is no way.

      • Pal says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 6:55 am

        Wellington, I think you are right about the two stages.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 5:01 pm

          Thank you, Pal. And may I say here that your 5:32 A.M. post above was spot on.

      • Angemon says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 8:50 am

        Christianblood posted:

        “Given what America and Nato did to the Serbian Christians when they supported Bosnian and Kosovar muslim jihadists”

        Still ascribing motivations to suit your little anti-Western narrative, I see.

        “God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!”

        Spoken like a true atheist.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 7:47 pm

          “God will be TOTALLY unjust if he lets America and Nato get away with this evil!”

          Spoken like a true atheist.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Exactly, Angemon. He is a phoney bologne pretender Christian, including all of his “God Bless You’s” and “Have a nice day my friend!”, when all he truly wants is for God to destroy Americans. Sick! and evil, is what he is.

  2. Myrtle Linder says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 2:41 pm

    A way should be found to rid the world of destroying of GOD’S WORK’S , Satanists, who bitterly reject the worship of anything beyond themselves!!

  3. Berengaria says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 3:21 pm

    This is the Clinton Crime Family’s debacle in 1990s’, & the Poor Christians are still bearing all the burdens left by Clinton & his worthless military.
    So, the Dried up Muslim ALbanians are trying to prove their relevancy again, Clinton had his military guarding the drug Routes for the Muslims, & then turned them loose on Christians.

  4. KrazyKafir says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 3:29 pm

    The very future of other European nations. And not too far off.

  5. Mark A says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 3:34 pm

    And these are the people whom Bill Clinton used military force to protect.

    In hindsight, western action against the Serbs can be broken down along Muslim versus non-Muslim lines.

  6. Bender says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    Thank you, West, for bombing the Serbs and converting this ancient Serbian Christian land into a muslim land.
    I hope you will experience the same, but in London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, etc.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 12:28 am

      Another creep gloating over Jihad savagery.

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 3:02 am

        Not creep, just a very bitter man. The US led rape of Serbia has created an ocean of frustration and despair in many freedom and democracy loving people all over the world; and it did burden the western nations with very bad Karma, which comes to haunt them more and more nowadays.
        But you can’t blame the entire American, or Canadian nation for the crimes of political elites. It’s post 1984 and propaganda methods have been honed into diabolic and irresistible art in the so called Free World. The frogs are in the slowly warming cauldron; that’s the best analogy.
        The Jihad Watch and most of its readers try to resist the impending doom. But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered. Discussions of Serbia on CNN and other media outlets prior to the bombings had invariably referred to Russia as Serbia’s perennial ally. Was this formulation designed to cast a spell to suppress any feelings of sympathy for Serbia before they could sprout? Did it capitalize on a deep pool of resentment for Russia built up through the Cold War? “Oh, so Serbs are buddies with Russkies, huh? Then let them have it, they deserve it!”
        These sentiments are still very much alive in the West; some guys see it and become bitter and irrational. Do you blame them?

        • LB says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 6:38 am

          I wanted to write something similar, but you’ve worded it marvelously. That bitterness you speak of is something the vehement defenders of the West (like GI and Angemon) will never understand since they haven’t experienced it personally, and think that pointing out the faults of Western policies (i.e. ruining someone’s country which inevitably leads to civilian deaths, creating many bitter individuals along the way) is declaring war against the West and is therefore a jihad enabler and/or communist Russian agent. In other words — AN ENEMY.

          I’ve tried explaining this a few times to some of them, but all I get in return are slander and “citation needed”, which has all the markings of a brainwashed leftist dhimmi. If by chance they haven’t awoken to muslim terror, they would make for excellent anti-counterjihadis (for the lack of a better word).

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:40 am

          LB posted:

          “That bitterness you speak of is something the vehement defenders of the West (like GI and Angemon) will never understand since they haven’t experienced it personally,”

          Short answer: f*** off, loser.

          Long answer: You know nothing about me and my life or GI and her life. You have no idea of where we grew up and the circumstances of our upbringing. Kindly refrain yourself from writing about issues you have zero knowledge of. Unless, of course, you’re going for the “ignorant idiot” reputation.

          Oh, and thank you for confirming what I wrote above regarding you being too personally involved to be objective – you are singling out users you dislike and blatantly lying about them. Hard to get more personally involved than that.

          “and think”

          Oh, and now you claim to know what I and/or GI think. And you, presumably, want to be taken seriously. Unbelievable.

          “that pointing out the faults of Western policies (i.e. ruining someone’s country which inevitably leads to civilian deaths, creating many bitter individuals along the way) is declaring war against the West”

          Where did I or GI said such a thing? Oh, and nice misrepresentation of the “arguments” your lot usually throws around. All you do is blame the West for everything and anything you can.

          “and is therefore a jihad enabler”

          OK, so let’s see if I can follow your “logic”: bombing Serbia was helping jihadis but coming to an anti-jihadi website and try to shame staunch anti-jihadis into silence is not helping jihadis. Nice set of dual standards.

          “and/or communist Russian agent.”

          Which decade are you living in, comrade? The fifties or sixties? Where did I or GI ever accused someone of being a “communist Russian agent”?

          “I’ve tried explaining this a few times to some of them”

          Meaning you tried to excuse your anti-Western narrative with a sob story.

          “but all I get in return are slander”

          Such as?

          “and “citation needed””

          Oh, someone asked you to back your claims. How terrible of them! What kind of people doesn’t unthinkingly swallows whatever it is you were selling and, instead, asks you to back your statements? Oh, the humanity!!!

          “ which has all the markings of a brainwashed leftist dhimmi.”

          And this is what clinches – if there was still any doubt – that your goal here has zero to do with opposition to islam and muslims and all to do with spreading anti-Western propaganda. You are implying that me and GI are “brainwashed leftist dhimmi[es]” without ever offering a shred of evidence for it. I dare you to find even one post where any of us defends, for example, BLM or the BDS movement. You know, two darling causes of the left. I also dare you to find even one post where I or GI defend islam or act like dhimmies. You’ll find none. COnsidering the available data, there’s only one possible reason you are labelling us as “brainwashed leftist dhimmi[es]”: it has nothing to do with islam or leftist policies – it’s just because we fight back your anti-Western (meaning anti-me, anti-GI and anti any Western member of JW) propaganda. Calling us “brainwashed leftist dhimmi[es]” is nothing but libel, a desperate attempt to turn other users here against us without ever explaining why they should be against us. “Hey, you don’t like leftists, right? And you don’t like dhimmies either, correct? Well, those two have all the markings of leftists and dhimmies. Just saying…”

          “ If by chance they haven’t awoken to muslim terror”

          Hilarious when I and GI have certainly passed the 4-digits mark of posts opposing islam, condemning terrorist attacks (islamic or not), countering propaganda of muslim apologists, criticizing the lax attitudes of Western governments regarding islamic terrorism and the importation of muslims into the West. Can you say the same? Can you even say that half of your posts here deal with those issues? Or do you spend most of your time here ranting and raving against the West and demonizing people who call you out on it?

          “they would make for excellent anti-counterjihadis (for the lack of a better word).”

          More libel and insinuations made more egregious because they’re aimed at two staunch anti-jihadis and because, as I explained, they are being made not because I or GI are lax on out stance regarding islam or Western policies but because we don’t uncritically buy your “blame the West” narrative.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 9:11 am

          Slavonian posted:

          “But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered. ”

          Citation needed.

          “These sentiments are still very much alive in the West”

          Citation needed. You know who hates Russians the most? Countries who were under the Soviet rule and whose autonomy and right of self-determination Putin refuses to acknowledge.

          “some guys see it and become bitter and irrational. Do you blame them?”

          Yes, in much the same way I blame a muslim who becomes “bitter and irrational” when seeing something un-islamic.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 3:10 am

          Slavonian wrote:

          Not creep, just a very bitter man. The US led rape of Serbia has created an ocean of frustration and despair in many freedom and democracy loving people all over the world; and it did burden the western nations with very bad Karma, which comes to haunt them more and more nowadays.
          ………………………………..

          I was no fan of America’s mistaken policy towards Serbia, and I have said so here many time.

          But is it the case that you believe that the Jihad assault on the West has nothing to do with Islam, but just to do with the supposed Karma of the West?

          Do you really suppose that Islam makes any distinction between Serbia–and the rest of the Balkan states, and Russia and surrounding nations–and the West proper? If you believe this, you are in error. We all are “filthy Infidels” to them.

          More:

          The Jihad Watch and most of its readers try to resist the impending doom. But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered.
          ………………………………..

          Really?

          More:

          Discussions of Serbia on CNN and other media outlets prior to the bombings had invariably referred to Russia as Serbia’s perennial ally. Was this formulation designed to cast a spell to suppress any feelings of sympathy for Serbia before they could sprout? Did it capitalize on a deep pool of resentment for Russia built up through the Cold War? “Oh, so Serbs are buddies with Russkies, huh? Then let them have it, they deserve it!”
          ………………………………..

          And who, exactly, said that or anything like it here?

          More:

          These sentiments are still very much alive in the West; some guys see it and become bitter and irrational. Do you blame them?
          ………………………………..

          Do I take issue with those who gloat over the (supposed) immanent fall of the West to the Muslim hordes? Yes, I do. Please note that neither myself nor anyone else I have seen here wants to see Russia or the Balkans fall to Islam. There are plenty of stories here about Jihad in the east where you can confirm my assertions. *No one* here is seeking the triumph of Islam in any part of the former Soviet sphere of influence.

          I am certainly appalled by the destruction of this Orthodox cathedral.

          Moreover, it is inaccurate to claim that those who seek the destruction of the West only do so due to the West’s supposed sins against the east; I have seen some here claim that the West deserves destruction because her population is not majority Eastern Orthodox, because she practices democracy, or because she allows homosexuals to live unmolested.

          LB wrote:

          I wanted to write something similar, but you’ve worded it marvelously. That bitterness you speak of is something the vehement defenders of the West (like GI and Angemon) will never understand since they haven’t experienced it personally, and think that pointing out the faults of Western policies (i.e. ruining someone’s country which inevitably leads to civilian deaths, creating many bitter individuals along the way) is declaring war against the West and is therefore a jihad enabler and/or communist Russian agent. In other words — AN ENEMY.
          ………………………………..

          Well, this is just insane. I–and other posters such as Angemon–regularly acknowledge the mistakes and shortcomings of the West.

          I cannot ever recall using the term “communist Russian agent” here, in large part because the Soviet Union–and Russian communism–ended over a decade before this site was founded.

          But there are, alas, still many in Russia and the east who hate the West and want to see her people destroyed–and this often has more to do with lingering cold war hatred than any faults of the West since then.

          More:

          I’ve tried explaining this a few times to some of them, but all I get in return are slander and “citation needed”, which has all the markings of a brainwashed leftist dhimmi.
          ………………………………..

          Actually, asking for clarification and proof are *hardly* the hallmarks of a dhimmi–just the opposite, as a rule.

          Moreover, I cannot recall your ever having addressed me here before, let alone having “explained” things to me.

          Which comments are you referring to?

          More:

          If by chance they haven’t awoken to muslim terror, they would make for excellent anti-counterjihadis (for the lack of a better word).
          ………………………………..

          Who here has not awoken to the threat of Jihad terror? Who, precisely, are you claiming *supports* Jihad terror here? Certainly not Angemon or myself.

          Whatever has led you to believe that I *support* Jihad terror? Surely, nothing I have ever posted in over ten years of comments here.

    • Peggy says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 1:24 am

      Yes a huge injustice was done to the Serbs but this is not the time to bicker.
      This is the time to band together, east and west and liberate ourselves from Islam. We can do it together but not if we hope for destruction of the other.

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 1:45 am

        Hear, hear, Peggy!

      • marc says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 1:51 am

        @Peggy, yes, spot on.

      • Champ says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 2:01 am

        So true, Peggy!

      • Mirren10 says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 6:03 am

        Well said, Peggy !

      • DFD says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 12:36 pm

        BRAVO PEGGY!

        Clap, calp, clap – and mor applause.

        I grab the honor to cosign your post without reservation.

    • Slavonian says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 4:00 am

      They are living it already, but it’s something only a camel can enjoy.

  7. DHazard says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 5:16 pm

    Islam is the only religion that gives hatred divine sanction. The more a Muslim hates non-Muslims, the more Muslim he becomes.

    It is taken for granted that the world is divided into us (Dar al-Islam – the house of peace) and them (Dar al-Harb – the house of war). Consequently, most of the human race is looked on by many Muslims as inherently degenerate, sinful, evil, and generally worthy of disdain and often death. This division is part of the conditioning of anyone who is born into a devout Muslim family They are blind to the common traits that are shared by every human being. But while never speaking this truth to others, or even to themselves, they continue to display these traits. Migrating from a Muslim majority country to a place ruled by non-Muslims out of the shared human desire for freedom and a better material life, is one example. But they do so with the underlying assumption that it is perfectly fine to bring all the things they seek to escape with them. Of course being dependent on someone you hate also breeds resentment. A few eventually realize that the Islamic world is in it’s sorry state due to the intrusive and joy sapping nature of Islam itself, and not because of a temporary imbalance of wealth, power and technological accomplishment between Allah’s devoted slaves and the followers of Satan.

    • Linde Barrera says

      Sep 13, 2016 at 6:13 pm

      To DHazard- Your 5:16 pm comment dated Sep. 13, 2016 was superb and right on-target. If only I was a billionaire I would pay for advertising spots on television called “Inspect Islam” and make you the spokesperson who would give a 60 second infomercial on the evil verses of Islam. Kind regards.

    • Sam says

      Sep 13, 2016 at 6:35 pm

      Very well said.

  8. Angemon says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 6:20 pm

    Early Saturday morning, Albanian Muslims in Pristina, Kosovo, set fire to the Orthodox Cathedral, and immediately after the fire, started using it as a toilet.

    I hope they got their privates burned…

  9. Sam says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 6:31 pm

    And OBAMA says:

    ” Eid al-Adha shows how Islam can “unite us under the banners of fellowship and love”

    Disgusting!!!!!

  10. gravenimage says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 7:00 pm

    Kosovo: Muslims set fire to Orthodox cathedral, use it as a toilet
    ……………………..

    This is horrific, but should not surprise. Churches have been used as garbage dumps by pious Muslims, and Jewish and Christian grave stones have been used by Muslims to line latrines.

    • DFD says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 12:45 pm

      In Bradford, UK *all* churches have high fences and wires. Still garbage and human refuse is dumped there, thrown over the fences and against the walls. The German evangelical church, near Bradford University, looks like a fortress, and it looks physically sad. When I saw it first I couldn’t help but think about the Alamo. There’s no similarity in appearance at all, but the feeling one gets…

      Bradford is simply depressive, at least for me.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 11:07 pm

        What a way to live. Why do we have to do this in our own countries?
        People responsible for this have to pay.

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 3:37 am

        Appalling–and all due to the threat of Muslim violence.

  11. Wellington says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    Rather fitting if assessed from the symbolic take on this since Islam is the toilet of religions.

    Easily so. No contest.

  12. AformerMuslim says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    If this happened to a mosque, Muslims would probably burn and kill!

    But It is no surprise. Allah and Muhammad have commanded their followers to fight non-Muslims.

    Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

    Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

    I thank God for calling me from the darkness of Islam into the light of Christ. For my Saviour said, ‘Do not resist evil’ ‘Love your enemies.’

    aFormerMuslim
    http://www.aformermuslim.com

  13. abad says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 8:24 pm

    Islam cannot co-exist peacefully with other religions.

    Therefore it is imperative that it be contained – Saudi Arabia and Syria are ideal places to contain Islam.

    Ans stop importing Muslims into Eastern Europe, Western Europe, The United States, Australia, Asia, and everywhere else.

    • Peggy says

      Sep 13, 2016 at 10:04 pm

      Muslims have been in Eastern Europe for centuries. Left over garbage from the Ottoman Empire.

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 12:00 am

        Exactly–not all of these thugs were ousted when the Balkans took back their lands from the Ottoman Muslims.

    • Marty says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 pm

      Check out that much hated & truthful book,
      The Clash of Civilisations.

  14. Peggy says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 10:03 pm

    It certainly looks very much like Albanians are trying the same formula to grab more of Serbian territory.
    Just the other day they attack police (repeating what happened in Kosovo in late 90s) and now this.
    They are clearly trying to provoke a response from Serbian government knowing that if Serbs react the same way they did then they will be seen as victims and given more land.
    There are areas in southern Serbia where there is a sizable Albanian and Bosnian Muslim population who want to break away.
    Camp Bondsteel is still in Kosovo so chances are the US will back them again. They know it.
    If Trump wins it will all reverse.

    • DFD says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 12:54 pm

      Let’s hope so
      ==========

  15. Peggy says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    Wellington says

    September 13, 2016 at 8:41 pm

    America and NATO DID NOT in 1999 bomb Serbia in support of Kosovo and “Bosnian jihadist muslims.” America did what it did because European NATO nations had done next to nothing to stop the slaughter which had been occurring since 1991 with the break-up of former Yugoslavia. Ditto for the useless Russian troops assigned to said area.
    ============================
    I have to disagree strongly with you here.
    NATO with instructions from the US bombed Serbia in order for Serbia to take their troops out of Kosovo. This is a proven fact. Not only that but NATO was demanding that Serbia allow NATO troops access for all of Serbia without any liability to NATO.
    If you say this was to stop slaughter and all sides were equally guilty then how come no other side was attacked by NATO?
    What is camp Bondsteel doing in Kosovo?
    Why after Serbia withdrew troops from Kosovo Albanians were allowed to break away and the first countries which recognized them were US etc? If it was to stop slaughter then why allow them to break away?
    I cannot believe that you support Clinton attacking Christians in support of Muslims. You don’t have enough proof now of what Islam is all about and what the Christians were having to endure?
    If he wanted the war to stop why not attack Muslims?

    • Wellington says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 7:46 pm

      Wrong, Peggy. The bombing of Belgrade in the Spring of 1999 by America was a much, much larger matter than “just” Serbian troops being in Kosovo (stunning ignorance on your part that you would think so). Four wars in eight years, with much of the fighting NOT taking place in Kosovo at all, helps prove my overall point here.

      As for why Serbia was bombed and no others, it’s because someone had to be the fall guy to reassure so many in all of Europe that the instability in the broken down Yugoslavia (which Europe, the UN and Russia didn’t solve at all) would not continue indefinitely. Sorry about Serbia being chosen as the fall guy but such is the way of things often times in history. And please note that after the American bombing in the spring of 1999 the acute stage of the Yugoslavian break-up stopped almost immediately——for which America got no credit whatsoever, indeed it received much scorn, by the ignorant multitude out there, which unfortunately seems to include you.

      Do you get any of this? You see, the bombing by America was not, first and foremost, to end the rot in what was once Yugoslavia. Rather, it was to reassure one pathetic European nation after another that America would do whatever it takes to contain instability on the European continent, which continent does not have a very good track record, now does it, over the past century or so? Christ almighty, I’m getting effing tired here at JW of having to point out Realpolitik matters to ingénues who should know better by now.

      Learn. Think geopolitically. Get off the “Kosovo matter.” As long as you only focus on Kosovo, then so long will you not get the bigger picture. And again I say, for about the fourteenth time here at JW, that I was and still am totally against an independent Kosovo. Here America and its allies supporting such were dead wrong. Oh yeah, think bigger picture than you have to date, Peggy. That is if you’re able.

      Here’s a test for you, Peggy, by way of a query: Do you think Serbians did no wrong in the 1990s? Were “only” Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Montenegrins, etc. to blame but not Serbians?

      Your turn. Outta’ here for now. God damn it, I’m tired of parochial thinking here at JW by many who should know better by now. Oh yeah, learn.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 11:03 pm

        Nobody has clean hands that is for sure. I never said that Serbs did no wrong. Show me a war, especially a civil war, where there is a side which is clean.
        What I am saying is that Kosovo was the prize for the US to get and it had to be torn away from Serbia. If like you said the only reason Serbia got bombed was to end the war why then was a military base Camp Bondsteel created and is still there to this day?
        Bondsteel is the second largest US base and you still think that it was only to show the rest of Europe that US will stop wars and that’s all? Wesley Clark and Madeline Albright have tried to set up business in Kosovo. So much stuff for grabs. Problem is that it all still belong to Serbia and anyone trying to buy any infrastructure would be sued.
        Please don’t keep saying how there were four wars when it’s totally wrong. This is only said by Croatians, Bosnian Muslims or Albanians.
        Slovenes don’t say it and you cannot count that as a war. It was a standoff which lasted a second and it was over. The civil war which started after that is just one war. How can one country have so many civil war? It’s one war over several areas and at the same time.
        You see, those republics were not recognized yet as separate countries so there was only one civil war going on.

        Montenegro was never in a war. Who with? When? Who blames Montenegro for the civil war? I never heard Serbs blaming them have you?

        Just because I don’t agree with your conclusions doesn’t mean that you need to convince me. We are all here discussing this and we have facts from many different sources.
        I am questioning things that’s all. Presenting information that I have.
        John Pilger has written a book titled “The New Rules of the World” and he talks about the bombing of Belgrade. He has a few interesting paragraphs on it. He is an Australian investigative journalist but hasn’t lived in Australia for quite a while. He has lived in Iraq and now he is in the UK.

  16. somehistory says

    Sep 13, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    This reminds me of several years ago when moslims took over a church in Israel and used pages from the Bible as toilet paper. And other disgusting things as they made demands from inside the church. Can’t remember what year it was or what the final result.

    But, the beast will burn soon; and all those who worship it will pay a heavy price for doing so.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 12:04 am

      somehistory wrote:

      This reminds me of several years ago when moslims took over a church in Israel
      …………………

      Probably this ugly story, somehistory, from the year after 9/11:

      “Siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Church_of_the_Nativity_in_Bethlehem

      • Champ says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 1:58 am

        Indeed, Graven. I was also thinking about what those savages did to the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, as well.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 10:42 pm

          Yes, Champ and somehistory. Some dhimmis tried to pass this off as the “poor Palestinians” trying to escape the Israelis, but the amount of damage was truly awful. This was a siege on one of Christianity’s holiest sites.

          I should add that even though I linked to the Wikipedia page on the story because I was strapped for time when I posted, that their account grotesquely whitewashes the Muslim siege, and unfairly portrays the Israelis.

      • somehistory says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 1:27 pm

        Yes, g, that is the one. I was thinking that very church when I wrote the comment, but my memory fails me at times, and because I don’t always trust it, I didn’t trust it then. Thanks for supplying the missing information about the disgusting display of evil.

        Hoping you and Champ are having a good day. Just about anything happening where we live is so much better than the Christians who are seeing their lives swallowed up by the flood of demonic activity from satan.

        • Champ says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 8:59 pm

          Thank you, Somehistory! 🙂

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 3:59 am

          Yes, horrible. Islam targets Christian churches–and other Infidel places of worship–wherever it finds them. We are *all* at risk.

          “Nigeria: Muslims slaughter 40 people, burn church”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/nigeria-muslims-slaughter-40-people-burn-church

          “Indonesia: Muslims attack 200 Christians at church, harass priest for reading Bible”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/indonesia-muslims-attack-200-christians-at-church-harass-priest-for-reading-bible

          There are hundreds of more such stories.

    • Peggy says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 1:27 am

      They would kill us if we so much as tore a page out of the unholy book but they use our Bible as toilet paper.

  17. Pal says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 5:50 am

    Kosovo was / is the Christian heart of Serbia.
    Albanians and Turks (Ottomans) did all they could to Islamize it and swarm it with Muslims thus to change it identity.
    Asia Minor was the Eastern heart of Christianity.
    So was the Middle East for its all.
    Bengal-Bangladesh used to be the Buddhist heart of the world.
    And Persia used to be the heart of the Zoroastrianism…

  18. daniel sebold says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 5:52 am

    Eventually America will become as balkanized as Yugoslavia and the Middle East by importing all its problems and celebrating them in its universities, then there will be civil war.

  19. jericko_One says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 6:29 am

    Jihad Watch is very well informed about what happens in South Serbia(Kosovo i Metohija).I live in Switzerland and from the War End of the 90’s not a single Article in all the Media Landscape of Europe what Muhammedans/Muslims did to us Serbs…..We are portrayed as the evil ones,the Butchers,the Massmurders ect and the Muhammedans are the poor Victims as always.Thank you for the Article!

  20. Richard Paulsen says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 6:53 am

    Helpless.

  21. Elaine McMurren says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 7:47 am

    To burn a cathedral and use it as a toilet is exactly the type of thing advocated by feminists. What do they expect to happen when their Islamic utopia is achieved?

    • bernie says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 10:18 am

      One of the buildings destroyed by the 9/11 terrorist attacks (though we don’t hear about it as much as we do about the WTC buildings and the Pentagon) was Saint Nicholas’ Greek Orthodox Church.

      Recently, there was an arson attack against a Florida mosque which the Pulse nightclub terrorist had regularly attended, and it made international news on a number of stations. I hadn’t heard about this latest jihadist outrage on an Orthodox church until just now on Jihad Watch, though.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 10:39 pm

        And Francesco wants us to believe that it’s only some knucklehead (long wolf).
        This is what Muslims do. You need to be just as savage to defeat them but when you are then you are the monster.

        • Peggy says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 10:39 pm

          Sorry lone wolf not long wolf.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 4:30 am

      What feminists are advocating burning cathedrals and using them as toilets?

  22. The Editrix says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 7:55 am

    Well, they did the same with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1997. So what else is new?

  23. Francesco says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 11:29 am

    I work in Kosovo. There is no problem for Christians here, at least for what i have been observing. We even have Evangelicals proselytizing in the streets. Plenty of people from the West..never had any incidents. I can eat and drink during Ramadan, no problems. They drink and eat during Ramadan. This is a different Muslim society. There is no Sharja law here and people are free to dress as they please, public signs of affection etc. Whomever did that must have been some knucklehead.

    • Peggy says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 10:36 pm

      Yes, there is a huge problem if you are a Serb and on the wrong side of the bridge.
      How many Serbs have returned? Not many and the ones who have tried have been met with hostility, attacks and some even killed.

      This is not the only incident. How many cemeteries were destroyed and how many churches and monasteries have been destroyed?
      If you really work in Kosovo then you would see the devastation. Lone wolf strikes again and again and again. Typical Muslim or Muslim apologist response. Lone wolf. Yeah, sure.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 4:47 am

      No problem for Christians in Kosovo, huh?

      “Kosovo: Muslims beat, harass, intimidate Christians”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/kosovo-muslims-beat-harass-intimidate-christians

      “Kosovo: Islamic State flag found in home of Muslim arrested with rifle outside monastery”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/02/kosovo-islamic-state-flag-found-in-home-of-muslim-arrested-with-rifle-outside-monastery

      Is the above indicative of a “different Muslim society”? Or are we supposed to believe these Muslim savages–who act like violent, intolerant Mohammedans everywhere–are somehow just random “knuckleheads”?

  24. Marty says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    Let’s not forget that the vile EU (otherwise known as the Fourth Reich)
    is soon having Kosovo as a member to be in receipt of UK cash
    & to receive its citizens as UK residents.
    We are still as much in the eU as when the treacherous war monger Blair
    dragged us deeper into the EUSwamp.

  25. Slavonian says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 3:35 pm

    Angemon says

    September 14, 2016 at 9:11 am

    Slavonian posted:

    “But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered. ”

    Citation needed.

    Very well, I’m glad to hear you implying that the USSR were the good guys in Afghanistan and The USA were the bad guys. Can’t always be right, can we? But did you think that way back when this epic story was unfolding?

    “These sentiments are still very much alive in the West”

    Citation needed. You know who hates Russians the most? Countries who were under the Soviet rule and whose autonomy and right of self-determination Putin refuses to acknowledge.

    Name one such country. You owe Putin an apology.

    “some guys see it and become bitter and irrational. Do you blame them?”

    Yes, in much the same way I blame a muslim who becomes “bitter and irrational” when seeing something un-islamic.

    So you blame Serbs for being pissed off that America bombed them and guys like you still approve of it today. LB is most likely a Serb, so you calling him a loser is especially callous. Yes, all Serbs had lost a lot due to America and yours rubbing it in must hurt.

    Incidentally, you claim not to live in the spirit of the sixties so why do you loath Putin?
    Answer a little quiz, please: a) Did Russia annex Crimea or did it reunite with Crimea and protect Crimeans from a lot like that of the Donbas? Does the Russian inhabited half of Ukraine have a legitimate claim to either full independence or at least full federalisation?
    b) Did Russia invade Georgia or did it protect the Abkhasian and Ossetian nations from Georgian aggression?
    c) Does Russia threaten eastern Europe or does eastern Europe threaten Russia?
    d) Why aren’t all these developed countries the best of friends but instead form two camps watching each other with cocked nuclear arsenal in trembling hands?

    • Slavonian says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 4:46 pm

      e) Do you agree with sanctions against Russia?
      f) Give us your most informed opinion on who shot down the MH17.
      Was it Russia, or was it Ukraine, or was it the rebels?

      • Angemon says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 11:30 am

        P.S.: You’re a commentator in Jihad Watch, not an anchorman in the Russia Propaganda Channel. Please stick to the matter at hand, mkay?

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 4:55 am

      Slavonian believes we “owe Putin an apology”? For what? His aggression in Georgia, in the Ukraine, or is it, perhaps, over his assassination of journalists?

      Certainly, Putin is almost as savage as Mohammedans in having his critics murdered.

      “The Putin Critics Who Have Been Assassinated”

      http://news.sky.com/story/the-putin-critics-who-have-been-assassinated-10369350

      There are those of us here who actually support freedom of speech.

      • Angemon says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 11:43 am

        gravenimage posted:

        “Slavonian believes we “owe Putin an apology”? For what? His aggression in Georgia, in the Ukraine, or is it, perhaps, over his assassination of journalists?”

        I say that it is Putin who owes the free world – and especially all and every non-muslim person suffering under islamic oppression anywhere in the world – an apology for having said, back in 2005, that “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests”.

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 2:40 pm

        Thanks for replying to my questions, guys. It’s evident, although you didn’t go into details, that you stick to the official policy in regards to the aforementioned issues. I’m very disappointed and puzzled by the fact that you are so well informed on some issues (Islam), and so hard, or perhaps just ill-informed, on others. Rather than get into a lengthy discussion of these topics here, I’ll leave it up to you to fill in the holes in your knowledge.
        In the other case, if you are well informed – then you must form your views basing on motivation which is totally unlike mine. Our standards differ, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine what dark instincts drive you to, for instance, wish to keep Crimea under the boot of Bandera’s battallions, have its cities shelled, and so on.
        “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests”. __________ That’s a very general statement _ what does Putin see as the best interests of the Islamic world? Perhaps, he means Secularism.. However, he never said, “The future must not belong to those who slander Islam.” The latter is them fighting words, the former is what almost all politicians say all the time.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 6:05 pm

          Slavonian wrote:

          Thanks for replying to my questions, guys. It’s evident, although you didn’t go into details, that you stick to the official policy in regards to the aforementioned issues.
          ………………………………

          What “official policy” might that be? The general one of the free West disapproving of a strong man assassinating his critics? Well, you are right there.

          More:

          In the other case, if you are well informed – then you must form your views basing on motivation which is totally unlike mine. Our standards differ, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine what dark instincts drive you to, for instance, wish to keep Crimea under the boot of Bandera’s battallions, have its cities shelled, and so on.
          ………………………………

          Who here said they wanted to see the Crimea shelled? This is calumny–as is the implication that if one had any issues with Communist aggression that one must, perforce, be a Fascist sympathizer.

          The fact is that civilized people reject both of these totalitarian ideologies–along with totalitarian Islam.

          Yet more:

          “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests”. __________ That’s a very general statement _ what does Putin see as the best interests of the Islamic world? Perhaps, he means Secularism..
          ………………………………

          I doubt it. Putin–although a staunch Communist and member of the KGB at one time, has since rather publicly rejected Secularism. Moreover, the idea that the Islamic world has ever considered Secularism to be among its interests is just laughable.

          More:

          However, he never said, “The future must not belong to those who slander Islam.” The latter is them fighting words, the former is what almost all politicians say all the time.
          ………………………………

          The difference is that all Anti-Jihadists here are appalled by the current occupant of the White House having said this about Islam.

          “Obama vs. free speech: ‘The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam’”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/09/obama-vs-free-speech-the-future-must-not-belong-to-those-who-slander-the-prophet-of-islam

          How can you have missed this?

          Whereas, many Russian apologists cannot bring themselves to offer a word of criticism for Putin or others in the east doing their own pandering to Islam.

          Putin has also enabled a nuclear Iran and has allowed his puppet in Chechnya to impose Shari’ah law there.

          As bad as thing are in the West, no nation there has official Shari’ah law in any of its jurisdictions.

          And Putin has glowingly said, “some analysts of Christianity say Orthodoxy is in many respects closer to Islam than to the Catholics” .

          And it is not just Putin; Patriarch Kirill has lauded Muslim immigration, even chiding the West for her concern over letting in millions of rapist Muslims:

          “Unlike the West, which is already nervous about the arrival of refugees, Moscow alone has taken in more Muslims than the whole of Europe has done by now. And nobody in the world is aware of it. And there is no hysteria, no police, no gas, no physical clashes.”

          Of course, this is also untrue; it ignores the hideous Jihad terror attacks on Moscow’s theater, metro, and airport.

          He also praised the genocidal head of Fatah Mahmoud Abbas on opening a huge Mosque in the heart of Moscow.

          None of this is to say that Russia and the East have been over all worse on Islam than has the West–just that while both sporadically defend against Jihad, that they both are as apt to respond with appeasement as anything else.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 5:39 pm

          Slavonian posted:

          “Rather than get into a lengthy discussion of these topics here, I’ll leave it up to you to fill in the holes in your knowledge.”

          Translation: “it’s not my job to educate you, s***lord”. In a sense, that’s true. It’s certainly not your – or anyone else’s – job to educate anyone here. It is also a cop-out – a way of leaving an argument without ever having to prove your point. But of course, logic is the all-time last priority for the likes of you.

          “That’s a very general statement _ what does Putin see as the best interests of the Islamic world? Perhaps, he means Secularism.”

          LOL!!!!! Last time I checked he was being presented as a devout Christian on a religious mission – go ask your buddy Christianblood, who’s been working overtime here to pass that image.

          “The latter”

          Meaning the spin you’re trying to get away with.

          “is them fighting words”

          How so? And how have those “fighting words” manifested into action in the last 11 years?

          “the former is what almost all politicians say all the time.”

          Name me 50 politicians who said “The future must not belong to those who slander Islam”. Shouldn’t be hard if, like you claim, it “is what almost all politicians say all the time”.

          “Our standards differ, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine what dark instincts drive you to, for instance, wish to keep Crimea under the boot of Bandera’s battallions, have its cities shelled, and so on.”

          Where did I or GI said such a thing? Nowhere, of course – you can’t win on logic, facts and reasoned debate so you resort, as your lot commonly does, to s***posting and libel. I get it – you’re all on favour of Russia starting a war, attacking and invading a sovereign nation AND you want to pretend to have the moral high-ground. I’ll remind you again that this is Jihad Watch and that you’re purposely straying off-topic.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 11:29 am

      Slavonian posted:

      “Very well, I’m glad to hear you implying that the USSR were the good guys in Afghanistan and The USA were the bad guys.”

      Nice try, but I asked you for a citation for something you wrote. Claiming I’m implying this or that is not the same as backing your claim, is is?

      You wrote:

      “But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered.

      Citation needed. For all of those points messily lumped together.

      “Name one such country.”

      What, you don’t know which countries were under Soviet rule?

      “So you blame Serbs for being pissed off that America bombed them and guys like you still approve of it today.”

      And now you’re trying to put words in my mouth. Classy! And yes, I blame people who become bitter and irrational, no matter the trigger.

      “LB is most likely a Serb”

      Huh, so what?

      “so you calling him a loser is especially callous.”

      I explained why I called him a loser. He made personal attacks against me and another user. He lied about me. In fact, considering his demeanour and attitude, calling him a loser was, in fact, too kind. Nationality doesn’t excuse such behaviour. There’s a parallel with muslim behaviour here – how often do we see muslims and muslim apologists excusing muslim barbarities by crying American foreign policy?

      “Yes, all Serbs had lost a lot due to America and yours rubbing it in must hurt.”

      Again: LB barged in to attack me. But apparently, defending myself from lies and personal attacks is “rubbing it in”. I guess you think “b-b-but, LB’s a Serbian!” is a valid reply. Let me tell you one thing. I’ve observed that the usual anti-Western lot seems to think they can get away with anything by telling a sad story for pity points. That never worked with me when muslim apologists tried, and it’s not going to magically start working now, regardless of your or LB’s nationality and religion.

      So, do you plan to point fingers and name names? Or just rant about “some here” who allegedly “supported” the alleged “US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered”?

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 3:42 pm

        “Very well, I’m glad to hear you implying that the USSR were the good guys in Afghanistan and The USA were the bad guys.”

        Nice try, but I asked you for a citation for something you wrote. Claiming I’m implying this or that is not the same as backing your claim, is is?

        I don’t need citations for something that is common knowledge. I don’t need citations to stick to the view that secularism beats fanatical Islam anytime.

        “But there are some here who had supported the US promotion of radical Islam over secularism in Afghanistan, as long as Russia suffered.

        Citation needed. For all of those points messily lumped together.

        “Name one such country.”

        What, you don’t know which countries were under Soviet rule?

        The issue is that you accused Putin of declaring that countries like Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, the Baltic countries do not deserve sovereignty, and ought to dance as Putin (Russia) whistles.
        There are many countries which were under Soviet domination which rely on Russia as defender of their freedom and are in no way afraid of Russia invading them. How about Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Abkhasia (the oldest of all those countries, as old as Greece). To boot, a major percentage of people of the former Warsaw pact realizes that Russia would not invade them even if they begged to be invaded. Times have changed.
        In the case of Russia, these changes are for the better.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 6:32 pm

          There are many countries which were under Soviet domination which rely on Russia as defender of their freedom and are in no way afraid of Russia invading them. How about Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Abkhasia (the oldest of all those countries, as old as Greece).
          …………………………

          This last is grimly laughable. This is a breakaway province of Georgia, whose existence as a nation is only recognized by Russia and a handful of nations seeking Russian favor–Venezuela, Nicaragua, and the tiny island nation of Nauru. Two other small island nations–Vanuatu and Tuvalu–subsequently withdrew their recognition of Abkhazia.

          Other supporters are other Russian breakaway puppet states not recognized by the rest of the world: Transnistria, which is part of Moldova, and South Ossetia, which like Abkhazia is actually part of Georgia.

          The idea that the appalling Muslim-majority hell hole of Kazakhstan is “free” is also quite insane:

          “Kazakhstan: Convert from Islam to Christianity gets 2 years prison for inciting religious hatred”

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/12/kazakhstan-convert-from-islam-to-christianity-gets-2-years-prison-for-inciting-religious-hatred

          How can anyone who claims to oppose Jihad consider this “freedom”?

        • Angemon says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 5:42 pm

          Slavonian posted:

          “I don’t need citations for something that is common knowledge.”

          Argument to popularity is not going to stick here.

          “The issue is that you accused Putin of declaring that countries like Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, the Baltic countries do not deserve sovereignty, and ought to dance as Putin (Russia) whistles.”

          Did I? Please point to the offending post.

          “There are many countries which were under Soviet domination which rely on Russia as defender of their freedom and are in no way afraid of Russia invading them. How about Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Abkhasia (the oldest of all those countries, as old as Greece).”

          Lol! Greece was officially recognized in 1830. Abkhazia declared independence in 1992 and it’s officialy recognized by exactly how many countries? Russia, a couple of it’s puppets and/bottom-licker states and who else? “The oldest of all those countries, as old as Greece”? Boy, you’re chronologically challenged, aren’t you?

          Anyway, that means jack s*** for those nations who willingly looked to the West for backup against Russian imperialism. You might as well be saying that islamic terrorism is not a problem because many muslims worldwide aren’t killing non-muslims – that does not made those who do less of a problem, does it?

  26. Richard says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 5:33 pm

    Wellington saidAmerica and NATO DID NOT in 1999 bomb Serbia in support of Kosovo and “Bosnian jihadist muslims.”

    That may not be what they intended to do – but that is the ultimate effect of their actions.

    The reality here is that the Serbs have a long history of oppression at the hands of Muslims – and a rather shorter one at the hands of Western Roman Catholic Empires light Austria-Hungary and the Third Reich.

    Yugoslav communism under Tito suspended those oppressive relationships but the breakup of Yugoslavia was perceived by the Serbs as threatening their return – since Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo all have Catholic or Muslim majorities.

    People who are terrified do bad things in what they perceive as self defence (especially if they have had their Christian culture suppressed by 45 years of officially atheist communism).

    Add to this the very clever playing of the “victim card” by Croats and Muslims. (Well reported by Dr David Owen when he visited the war zone) and you can see perhaps why the west reacted as they did. What is beyond doubt now, however is that they were duped into doing this and are now in denial on that point.

    On other point. In spite of the obvious provocation of the bombing of Belgrade was there any retaliatory violence (terrorism) from the Serbs?

    Answer No.

    IN spite of much provoction the Serbs have never retaliated against the west. In short theor role seems to be to accede to every demand the west makes – and then get attacked anyway – as in the start of WW1

    • Slavonian says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 6:56 pm

      You make a great argument against your earlier statement that the advancement by NATO of Islam in the Balkans was not intended. There had to be a master-plan, otherwise being nice and compliant would have paid off for Serbia. The same plan is still being implemented, but it now happens on other fronts. Now, it’s western Europe, the EU originals. Someone, somewhere doesn’t give a damn about indigenous Europeans.

    • Wellington says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 8:57 pm

      Reading so many of the posts here on this thread, you’d think the Serbians never did any wrong. Indeed, that they were all saints. C’mon.

      The break-up of Yugoslavia saw wrong done by all sides, only the degree being a variable. Since Serbia had dominated Yugoslavia from its inception after the end of WWI, it naturally became the designated fall guy. To some extent this was fair, to some extent this was not fair. But what needed to be done by 1999, after four wars in eight years in the Balkans, was an end to the acute stage of the Yugoslavian break-up. The American bombing of Belgrade in the spring of 1999 achieved this. Sorry this had to be done but it needed to be done and one knows this or should know it if only one considers not only the Balkans but Europe in toto back in 1999. Unfortunately, ignorance of Islam allowed for the stupidity of the creation of Kosovo by the West, including by America, but this does not exculpate the role of the Serbians in the 1990s. One knows this or should know it. Anyone averring otherwise, I suggest you bring this up in a tavern in Slovenia or Croatia. Lots of luck if you do.

      I mean you might as well blame America for siding with Stalin against Hitler since shortly afterwards Stalin, in total cynical and ruthless mode, took over Eastern Europe. Ditto for Reagan aligning with Muslim forces against the Soviets seeking domination of Afghanistan (and thus closer access to warm water ports) in the 1980s. One fights the battle du jour first and foremost and hopes the consequences will not be deleterious. But often they are and 20/20 hindsight should never be praised for being prescient after the fact.

      • marc says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 9:00 pm

        Wellington said: “I mean you might as well blame America for siding with Stalin against Hitler since shortly afterwards Stalin, in total cynical and ruthless mode, took over Eastern Europe.”

        That is an awesome perspective, thank you.

        • Peggy says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 10:27 pm

          Siding with Stalin at that time was a good move. Nazis had to be defeated and Hitler was a threat to all of Europe.
          Stalin butchered a lot of Russians too and was a very nasty piece of sh.t but he was not a threat to the west.
          Siding with Muslims was an extremely bad move because we are all suffering as a result of that. What the west should’ve done was leave them alone to do live anyway they want and only react to a threat against Israel. Keep Israel strong and supported but the rest can do whatever they want to each other.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:57 am

          Peggy posted:

          “Stalin butchered a lot of Russians too and was a very nasty piece of sh.t but he was not a threat to the west.”

          Great, now you’re whitewashing Stalin. How about you say that to the people in Eastern Europe? You know, when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland between them? Or the famine in Ukraine? That Stalin – and the USSR – preferred to subvert and divide to conquer instead of doing it the military way, like Germany tried to (and I suspect we have to thank the US and their status as a superpower for keeping the USSR in check), doesn’t mean Stalin was not a danger to his Western neighbours. Heck, much of the troubles plaguing the West nowadays are the fruits of Russian infiltration going back decades ago. All this talk current about “oppression” and “special protected” groups stinks of marxism.

          “Siding with Muslims was an extremely bad move because we are all suffering as a result of that.”

          We are suffering because people raised with marxist breast-milk want to force everyone else to believe that muslims are not a danger.

          “What the west should’ve done was leave them alone to do live anyway they want and only react to a threat against Israel.”

          What about Kosovo?

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 2:37 pm

          Peggy wrote:

          Siding with Stalin at that time was a good move. Nazis had to be defeated and Hitler was a threat to all of Europe.
          Stalin butchered a lot of Russians too and was a very nasty piece of sh.t but he was not a threat to the west.
          ………………………….

          Peggy–with respect–immediately following WWII Stalin seized all of Eastern Europe, as well as half of Germany. This was *more* than a threat to his neighbors, and this ushered in the long and nasty Cold War.

          This resulted in untold suffering in both Eastern Europe and the West.

          The Soviet Union did indeed provide vital support in the fight against Hitler–after, of course, having allied with him–but then used the war-weariness of the West to hold millions in chains behind the Iron Curtain for almost fifty years. An ugly legacy, from which former Iron Curtain countries are still attempting to recover.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 10:20 pm

        , but this does not exculpate the role of the Serbians in the 1990s. One knows this or should know it. Anyone averring otherwise, I suggest you bring this up in a tavern in Slovenia or Croatia. Lots of luck if you do.
        ==========================
        So what if you would get a different story from the Croats. I don’t think Slovenians have any problems with Serbs. The short standoff was not a war by any means and they have good relations now. Slovenians did not bring out Nazi symbols and Ustasha symbols threatening Serbian lives.
        Problem between Serbs and Croats goes a long way back and the history is very bloody where Serbs have always been victims. Croatians cannot rewrite history and their treatment of Serbs, Roma and Jews in the past even had the Nazis shocked. What they say now is to be taken with a grain of salt.
        Having said that, of course all sides are guilty of war crimes. Unfortunately that happens in civil wars more than in others. Nobody has clean hands but to say that Belgrade had to be bombed for 72 days and night is not fair at all.

        Why did Belgrade have to be bombed? Is it because Serbs were going to win against the others and Europe just couldn’t have that. You see, if Serbs won then Yugoslavia would have been left unbroken for most part. Did Yugoslavia have to be broken for any reason? Now they want to preserve territorial integrity in George and Kiew but Yugoslavia didn’t have such protection? Why Not? Why punish one side which definitely suggests that they are the bad guy? What message was sent by doing this?

        It seems to make sense to you but it makes no sense to me at all.
        If the government is made up of representatives from all republics and they have a rotating presidency how do you come to the conclusion that everyone was answerable to Serbs? Just because the capital was Belgrade? Tito was Croatian and a dictator but somehow he subdued everyone including his Croatians in order to make the Serbs powerful?
        Sorry, this does not sound believable to me.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 11:55 am

          Peggy posted:

          “Did Yugoslavia have to be broken for any reason?”

          Did the Soviet Union had to be broken for any reason? How about the Ottoman Empire?

          “Now they want to preserve territorial integrity in George and Kiew but Yugoslavia didn’t have such protection?”

          Are we talking about the same people here? You know, the elusive “they”? “They” wanted territorial integrity in Georgia and Kiev but “they” did not in Yugoslavia and your is the opposite opinion – territorial integrity in Yugoslavia but not in Kiev and Georgia. Is that it? If so, what makes it different for you?

          P.S.: I’m always surprised when I see people who support “deportation” of muslims – whether they’re natives or not, just round them up and send them somewhere else – criticizing against letting muslims in a country go away. Kosovo is a muslim-majority country. Would things in the Balkans be better if the muslims living in Kosovo were forced to be a part of a non-muslim nation? Wouldn’t they, you know, wage jihad against non-muslims? Would you rather have a Chechnya in the Balkans?

        • Wellington says

          Sep 15, 2016 at 4:27 pm

          “I don’t think Slovenians have any problems with Serbs.”

          Really, Peggy? It just so happens that before I married the wonderful woman whom I did, I dated a Slovenian. Here’s what she told me what her father (who, along with this woman’s mother, came to America from Slovenia) told her oft times since she was a little girl: You have three or more Slovenians in a room, then you have a choral society. You have three or more Croatians in a room, then you have a debating society. You have three or more Serbians in a room, then you have a brawl. I can assure you, Peggy, that based on my many conversations with my “Slovenian connection” there is no love lost between Slovenia and Serbia. None. Slovenia has historically looked to fellow Catholic Austria for support and, to my knowledge, never to Orthodox Serbia.

          Your turn, Peggy, if you so choose. Truly, if you think Slovenians “don’t have any problems with Serbs,” you obviously live in a constructed world of your own making. And I would close here by asserting that the Serbs have many attributes. I certainly don’t want to demonize them, but the American bombing of Belgrade in 1999 was done first and foremost to reassure a very nervous Europe (especially Hungary, Austria and Italy) that America will do whatever it takes to insure instability, as was then occurring in the former Yugoslavia, doesn’t have a cascading, spillover effect. This has been my point all along, and whether it was four wars in eight years in Yugoslavia or three wars and a standoff in eight years in Yugoslavia, I don’t think you “get” the bigger picture here. Try to sometime.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 10:31 pm

        Wellington says

        September 14, 2016 at 8:57 pm

        Reading so many of the posts here on this thread, you’d think the Serbians never did any wrong. Indeed, that they were all saints. C’mon.
        ———————————
        Definitely not but they are the only ones who got bombed by the west.

        Civil wars are more savage than other wars because there are always old scores to settle so why only tell half the story?

      • Angemon says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 11:46 am

        Wellington posted:

        “I mean you might as well blame America for siding with Stalin against Hitler since shortly afterwards Stalin, in total cynical and ruthless mode, took over Eastern Europe. ”

        Brilliant. Just… brilliant 🙂

  27. Peggy says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 7:22 pm

    DFD says

    September 14, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    To Marc:

    Indeed Marc, the situation there was, and to a large extent still is, extremely complex.
    ————————————–
    True. We can get information for a variety of sources and so be better informed today than we were twenty years ago.
    One thing that many people don’t understand is that they blame Serbia for the war. Before any separation attempts were made Croatia was arming itself and smuggling weapons through the Hungarian border. They were preparing for war. How is it that Serbia got the blame for starting the war then? Back then there was no Serbia as a country. It was Yugoslavia and it was the Yugoslav government (made up of representatives from all republics) who governed so no, the others were not under the Serbian boot. The presidency was a revolving presidency, meaning a representative from each republic took a turn at being the president.
    More fair than that it could not be.
    Once Croatia decided to secede they started unfair treatment of Serbs there even in the areas where they were majority. The old Nazi Ustasha symbols came out again and knowing what happened to Serbs back in WW2 and the memory of Jasenovac naturally alarmed the Serbs.
    They rose up and it all began.
    It was the Serbs living in Croatia who rose up not Yugoslavia and definitely not Serbia which took part.
    I know that many say how Serbia started 4 wars etc. I have read it in blogs all before but Slovenia was the first to secede and there was no war. It was a very short standoff that’s all.
    Croatia was the one preparing for war by arming themselves secretly.
    Serbs from Croatia were fighting not the Yugoslav army.

    Then Bosnian Muslims decided to try their luck. The first casualty of that war was a Serb who was killed at a wedding. What did that signal to other Serbs? Bosnian president Alia Izetbegovic was a strong Islamist and wanted to make Bosnia muslim.

    At the end of the day everyone was involved and old scores were settled. This is what a civil war is. There was no aggression from an outside country like it’s popularly portrayed. Serbia was not a separate country but just one republic inside Yugoslavia which wanted to stay part of Yugoslavia.
    Kosovo was never Albanian and has always been a problem.

    People like John Pilger, General Lewis MacKenzie, Scott Taylor, James Bissett, and many others are saying this. General MacKenzie has written a book called Peacekeeper, the road to Sarajevo and he talks about his time as the person in command of the UN troops. These are the people worth listening to not MSM who are biased.
    I remember watching the news when all this was unfolding and I saw a funeral which our media here tried to pass off as a Muslim funeral and it was such a tearful scene where mothers were mourning their dead. They were very critical of the Serbs who slaughtered these people but there was one thing which stood out.
    They were carrying crosses and on the crosses was Cyrillic writing. Seeing how Muslims hate crosses it was obviously not a Muslim funeral.
    If MSM are prepared to go that far at brainwashing us what else is a huge lie?

    • marc says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 7:50 pm

      @Peggy,
      Highly complex, I can’t really speak that much for the US involvement, but i do know a bit first hand about British involvement, having nearly gone over there myself, I had many friends over there at the time, one returned seriously injured and pensioned out, serving men who wanted to separate warring parties, that’s all they went to do, and they ended up in the middle of hell, and were directed by leadership wrongly. I also happened to have, Serbian friends as many settled in Cricklewood, London at the time, i remember he said “it looks like it’s all us if you only watch the news, but the muslims are committing genocide against us”. The news in the UK at the time only showed pictures of burning mosques, but I belive the figures were greatly exaggerated by media and far far more churches were burnt, if that is a gauge of anything.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 14, 2016 at 10:03 pm

        Either the media were really, really stupid and they just bought everything that was presented to them or they were used as propaganda tools.
        I still can’t get over the fact that they presented a Serbian funeral as a Muslim one to gain our sympathy.
        Marc, I thought everyone knew that Muslims are not Christian, therefore they don’t have crosses. Could a producer of a major news network make such an ignorant mistake? I don’t know what to think.
        I actually rang up and spoke to him and all he said was that they will take a look at the footage again. Nothing happened. No retraction or apology for misleading the public even if not deliberate.
        I suppose there is a lesson to be learned. Don’t get mixed up in something you don’t fully understand.

        • Linde Barrera says

          Sep 14, 2016 at 10:25 pm

          To Peggy- Thank you for calling about the funeral, and being an activist. More people must get involved in stories such as this and criticize the journalists for not presenting the truth as it is, not as they would like. I think journalists should be sued for malpractice and negligence, just like doctors are allowed to be sued for malpractice and negligence. I am not surprised that the guy you spoke to did not apologize. Most reporters are pussies, in my opinion.

  28. Avenger says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 7:29 pm

    Alas, the backing of the wrong side (Sunni Muslims) by the USA in this civil war against Serbia is coming to fruition.
    It’s much the same way the USA has backed Sunni terrorists in the civil wars of Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Cyprus, Pakistan, Indonesia and now Syria.
    The US is currently stabbing its Kurdish allies in the back by allowing Turkey (Sunnis again) to cross into the sovereign nation of Syria and destroy the Kurds and all their gains against ISIS.

    America became a mercenary force for Saudi Arabia starting with HW Bush and hasn’t ended since. My hope is that Donald Trump will put Hillary Clinton into the “trash bin of history” and only then will these monied tentacles of SA be severed.

    • Peggy says

      Sep 14, 2016 at 9:52 pm

      If he is allowed to win.
      They might do something shifty to keep Trump out. I can only pray that they won’t get away with anything.
      If the Democrats win it’s chaos all over the world again.
      More Americans are informed now than ever before. This has to be a good thing and enough.

  29. daniel sebold says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 8:50 pm

    If Hillary wins, she may take us to war with Iran for the benefit of Saudi Arabia. I wouldn’t want to be serving in the military when that happens. Imagine the morale of the troops working for that old farting, fainting asshole.

  30. Peggy says

    Sep 14, 2016 at 11:30 pm

    @Linde Barrera,

    Thanks for the encouragement. This is not the only time or the only issue I have rang a TV station or a radio station.
    I have been very vocal against the Iraq war (2nd one) because I didn’t think that I could trust the media or my government to present the truth.I just did not believe that we were going to take part in something based on a lie. I never believed that there were WMD. I have attended a speech given by John Pilger on that subject. He had lived in Iraq and was in a good position to know more than our MSM.
    I have seen Robert Spencer when he was in Melbourne as well as Noam Chomsky. Have gone to listen to Scott Morrison (former immigration minister in Australia) prior to the election which resulted in Labor losing and he implementing turn back the boats policy.
    I have written to my MP a number of times and try to get people interested in what is going on in the world.
    That’s why I like sites like this one. People can comment and give different opinions and links to articles I probably wouldn’t find myself.

  31. Self says

    Sep 15, 2016 at 3:21 am

    Major media loves to show the pic of Urosevac’s (Ferizaj) mosque beside a church because it fits their narrative that we can all just get along swimmingly. But now in the same Kosovo we have this attack. Apparently one side didn’t get the memo.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 6:49 pm

      Actually, Self, Muslims usually build Mosques right next to Churches not out of a sense of brotherhood, but so they can build their Minarets higher than the Church in order to intimidate, It is just the same with this Mosque in Ferizaj:

      http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OwPcIzDXvoI/TrnQY30C8NI/AAAAAAAAAkM/eh7EDoqtAv8/s1600/04100001.JPG

  32. william beilstein says

    Sep 15, 2016 at 8:54 am

    I live here. The construction was never completed and abandoned in 1999. Since then it has been nothing but a vacant building where romas probably piss from time to time.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 2:57 pm

      Why do you think construction was abandoned in 1999? This was when Muslims seized power in Kosovo. Many Christians fled. Under Islam, the construction–or even refurbishment–of churches is Haram.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 7:11 pm

        Exactly. They demolish churches and monasteries, chase non Muslims out, beat them up if they dare try to return and then claim it was all abandoned so it didn’t mean anything to them anyway.
        Why have so many cemeteries been vandalized? Can people return to repair them? This will also be passed off as nobody cares about the graves so why not dig them up and build a mosque on top?
        BTW, what do you think William Beilstein is doing in Kosovo? Can’t imagine anyone moving to live there unless they are in the military. He certainly isn’t Albanian or Serbian judging by his name.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 12:05 am

          Yes–curious. His nasty comment about the Roma (Gypsies)–most of whom are actually Christian–pissing in a cathedral is pretty suspect. The article makes it clear that it is Muslims who set the church on fire and are using it as a toilet–*not* Christians.

          I think I found him, as Billy Beilstein–he lives in Pristina, and has photos from Albania on his Facebook page. Perhaps coincidentally, he also has a shot of the promenade in Nice where a Muslim mowed down 80 victims. He seems to have some connection with the US Embassy in Pristina, and was in Afghanistan before this.

  33. Peggy says

    Sep 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm

    Your turn, Peggy, if you so choose. Truly, if you think Slovenians “don’t have any problems with Serbs,” you obviously live in a constructed world of your own making. And I would close here by asserting that the Serbs have many attributes. I certainly don’t want to demonize them, but the American bombing of Belgrade in 1999 was done first and foremost to reassure a very nervous Europe (especially Hungary, Austria and Italy) that America will do whatever it takes to insure instability, as was then occurring in the former Yugoslavia,
    ==============
    Wellington.

    You are basing your opinion on a small sample of people. And that little saying how if you have three or more of whoever is really not any kind of proof of anything. That’s just a saying.
    We all have Irish jokes but does that mean that the Irish are really stupid?
    Maybe that Slovenian friend has a problem with Serbs but to use that saying about three or more etc as some sort of proof is ridiculous.

    Since you know so much then do tell us how long did this “war” between Slovenia and Serbia last? Keep in mind that there WAS NO SERBIA back then but Yugoslavia whose army was inclusive of all ethnic groups and religions. Also, many Slovenians are Lutheran and don’t necessarily like Croatians.
    Not long ago Slovenia and Croatia had huge problems regarding borders along the Adriatic. Brotherly love there? Think not.
    So please do provide some evidence of what you say and don’t spread silly gossip. That’s not evidence.
    I knew a Slovenian man who was extremely critical of Croatians and supported the Serbs. Do I bring that as my evidence? Is my “evidence” of what this man told me stronger than yours? Can you see how ridiculous that is?

    You have made strong statements but haven’t offered any evidence or links to support them.

    Then you said:

    but the American bombing of Belgrade in 1999 was done first and foremost to reassure a very nervous Europe (especially Hungary, Austria and Italy) that America will do whatever it takes to insure instability, as was then occurring in the former Yugoslavia, doesn’t have a cascading, spillover effect.
    ==========

    If that was indeed the truth why didn’t the US attack Croatia or Slovenia or Bosnia or anyone else who wanted to separate? Why even allow anything to begin?
    Also, can you provide some evidence or a link supporting that theory?

    • Wellington says

      Sep 15, 2016 at 9:39 pm

      The US attacked Serbia in 1999 because Serbia was, as I have indicated before, the designated fall guy for the turmoil in the artificial construction which was Yugoslavia (which Serbia dominated to the ire of other ethnicities like the Croatians and Macedonians or do you deny this?). The bombing, Peggy, was done, and I wish you would finally get this, to reassure a nervous Europe that the Yugoslavian break-down, which had been going on for years, not months, would not have a destabilizing effect on all of Europe. The bombing was done far more to appease Budapest, Vienna, Rome, etc., than to punish Belgrade.

      Think geopolitically. Think Realpolitik. And, btw, if you believe Slovenians have a high opinion of Serbs, you live in a fantasy land. More expansively, all these people despise one another, speaking in the aggregate. The narration I conveyed to you from my former girlfriend’s father was meant to convey a larger truth by way of microcosm. You missed this I believe.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 10:27 pm

        You keep repeating yourself over and over. It doesn’t make it so.
        I asked you to provide some evidence of what you claim and am still waiting.

        It puzzles me how Serbia could dominate the other republics when they all had equal representation in government and the presidency was a rotating presidency so that all ethic groups could have a president they identified with.
        So do tell how this makes Serbia the dominant one then. It certainly doesn’t make any sense to me.
        If you have evidence of the claim you are making, again feel free to produce it but just relying on your word is not going to cut it.

        So you had a Slovenian girlfriend and you now know exactly what transpired and why.
        I never claimed that Slovenians have a high opinion of Serbs but they certainly are not enemies and there are Slovenians out there who actually think more highly of Serbs than Croats.
        I also told you how I came across a Slovenian man and he told me the opposite to what your girlfriend’s father says. What do you say about that?

        I didn’t miss anything. I explained to you how people say things about the Irish and make many jokes about their intelligence. Does it make the Irish stupid?

        People say a lot of things. Not all of the are true, well maybe true to the teller but not true as far as history is concerned.

        “The bombing was done far more to appease Budapest, Vienna, Rome, etc., than to punish Belgrade. ”
        —-
        How did you get to this conclusion and why did Budapest, Vienna and Rome want Serbia bombed? What did they get out of it?
        The US got a nice big military base there.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 5:45 pm

          Peggy posted:

          “You keep repeating yourself over and over. It doesn’t make it so.
          I asked you to provide some evidence of what you claim and am still waiting.
          ”

          Lol! The irony. Oh, the irony of you complaining about people allegedly repeating themselves over and over and not replying to your requests of evidence.

          Karma’s a harsh mistress, ain’t it? Not that you’re a stranger to hypocrisy, mind you.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 15, 2016 at 10:30 pm

        You haven’t addressed any of my points and just repeated what you said previously.
        If you want to discuss this then you do need to address what I said and asked.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 12:12 am

          I believe I have addressed all of your points, Peggy. But OK, let’s say that noting I have averred is true, then why do you think NATO moved into the fracturing Yugoslavia in the mid-Nineties along with inept UN troops? What is your reasoning for why America finally took action in 1999? Why were several people like Milosevic tried in The Hague? BTW, did you not even bother to read any accounts back in the Nineties about how nervous sundry European countries were as Yugoslavia was breaking apart violently? The anxiety here went on for a long time and I just assumed someone like you would know at least this but I guess I assumed too much. And one last thing. The blame for the carnage in the former Yugoslavia has many culprits and certainly not just the Serbs, as I have noted several times.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 5:48 pm

          Peggy posted:

          “You haven’t addressed any of my points and just repeated what you said previously.
          If you want to discuss this then you do need to address what I said and asked.
          ”

          Lol! Hilarious coming from you, out of all people!

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 12:48 am

        The bombing was done far more to appease Budapest, Vienna, Rome, etc., than to punish Belgrade.

        Do you know how ridiculously your rationalisation sounds? The bombing was done to appease people screaming “Bomb the Serbs, bomb Serbia!” The German Green minister Joschka Fischer, Biden, McCain, Albright, all foaming at the mouth. Is that a good reason? You can’t imagine how much disillusionment this ill-advised violence had caused with people in eastern Europe, Budapest, Vienna, Rome, Athens who until then were staunch defenders of the US foreign policy. What a shame – Serbs and Greeks were our only allies in the Balkans who fought the Nazi Germany. So much good-will lost! With Yugoslavia falling apart, the Serbian half of Bosnia had the right to join whoever it desired.
        Since Bosnian Muslims had been guilty of a genocide against Serbs during the war, they especially had no right to force the Serbs to live with them just because without them, the remainder of Bosnia would not be viable as a state.
        One of the major reasons Serbia was singled out for a savage beating was sending a message to all that Russia cannot protect even its best friends. The media analysts always slobbered all over this motif – Russia would dearly love to protect Serbia, but it lost the Cold war and now it can hardly protect even itself. Egregious!

        • Peggy says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 1:17 am

          I also think that it had a lot more to do with sending a message to Russia and anyone else who was thinking of developing friendly relations Russia.
          Serbs are and always were friendly with Russians and they had to be brought into line.
          Yugoslavia as a whole would never be under US domination but broken up, the small fragments that call themselves countries now are a different story.

          At that time Soviet Union had collapsed and under Yeltsin’s (the drunk) leadership Russia was very vulnerable. It was a perfect time to take control of that region.
          Proven formula of getting ethnic groups to rise up in the name of nationalism and ill feelings towards each other was all that was needed to break up the country and then take control. Get the peasants to fight your battles.

          We’ve seen this formula used in other places too.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 12:07 pm

          Once the bombing in the spring of 1999 took place the acute stage of the Yugoslavian breakdown ended and thereafter a chronic but more stable stage ensued. Or do you deny this? Thus the bombing, which I’m sorry came at the expense of the Serbs, was done not to allay the concerns of the few people you mentioned but a much, much wider lot in one European nation after another. After the spring of 1999, Europe breathed a sigh of relief though tragedy continued to ensue in the former Yugoslavia but not at the level which inaugurated continental European concern in the first place.

          If you disagree with this opinion, then proffer yours as to why America bombed Belgrade in 1999. Surely you don’t think it was due to just appease the few that you named or that America hated the Serbs but no one else. UN troops had proved useless. European NATO troops looked the other way as the butchery by all sides went on. Ditto for Russian troops who did indeed favor the Serbs. C’mon. America didn’t just do the bombing that it did in 1999 for the hell of it. And I have gotten tired of stating the reason here on this thread. Read my initial post on this thread on September 13th, 8:41 P.M. for summary of my viewpoint. Disagree with it if you will, but frankly I’m done with people who are obviously pro–Serbian and who refuse to see things other than from a Serbian point of view.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 5:52 pm

          Slavonian posted:

          “One of the major reasons Serbia was singled out for a savage beating was sending a message to all that Russia cannot protect even its best friends. ”

          Citation needed.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 5:43 pm

      Peggy posted:

      “We all have Irish jokes but does that mean that the Irish are really stupid?”

      There’s no way that was not a purposely fallacious comparison. Wellington wasn’t talking about jokes OTHER PEOPLE said about Slovenians, he gave his personal example of what SLOVENIANS say among themselves. Obama saying that ISIS is not islamic means jack s*** when we see islamic state members tell one another that they are, in fact, basing their actions in islamic law.

      Do you follow? Was that clear enough?

      • Peggy says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 8:23 pm

        And I gave my personal example of what Slovenians say as well. Neither one means much because they are just opinions of some which doesn’t make the whole Serbian nation so.
        Your comparison of Obama’s opinion of ISIS is weak at best. We see the fruits of ISIS’ horror but where do you see examples of what Wellington said?
        How many brawls are there between Serbs that you have heard about?
        These sort of conversations between some people who gather with their friends and have fun by making such claims is not something we should take as gospel.
        You Angemon are the one who is always replying to claims made by some here with ‘citation needed” now defends a statement like that without question?
        Maybe you just pick and choose which posters you want to take a face value and which ones you like to demand “citation” from.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 11:07 am

          Peggy posted:

          “And I gave my personal example of what Slovenians say as well.”

          Again, there’s no way this is not a purposely fallacious comparison. You met *one* person who had a position. Wellington mentioned a saying among Slovenians. See the difference? You realize that stereotypes aren’t always unjustified, right?

          “Neither one means much because they are just opinions of some which doesn’t make the whole Serbian nation so.”

          See above.

          “Your comparison of Obama’s opinion of ISIS is weak at best.”

          Nope.

          “We see the fruits of ISIS’ horror but where do you see examples of what Wellington said?”

          In Slovenia, perhaps, where the saying originated?

          “How many brawls are there between Serbs that you have heard about?”

          How many make it to the international media? Anyway, nice attempt at deflecting – that I may or may not have heard of brawls where Serbians participated means jack s*** to the Slovenians and the history behind that saying.

          “These sort of conversations between some people who gather with their friends and have fun by making such claims is not something we should take as gospel.”

          Again, you realize that not all stereotypes are unjustified, right?

          “You Angemon are the one who is always replying to claims made by some here with ‘citation needed””

          “Always”? Again, hyperbole much? Why do you insist in claiming that I “always” do this or “always” do that when there’s ample evidence to the contrary? Case in point: did I asked you for a citation regarding your alleged anecdote? I didn’t. And yet, facts didn’t prevent you to make a claim that’s blatantly false.

          You lie. You lie a lot. You lie a lot about things that are literally in your face. And people tend not to trust on people who lie a lot about things that are literally in your face – the boy who cried wolf, etc.

          “now defends a statement like that without question?”

          *yawn*

          Is that really how you’re trying to spin it? Notice that, as mentioned above, I did not ask you for a citation regarding your anecdote with an alleged Slovenian man either. That’s because, like with Wellington’s history, I imagine it would be nearly impossible to prove, so I took both at face value. And I can tell the difference between a saying that’s been passed from father to daughter – i.e., something that became ingrained in a society – and the opinions of one individual. The question is, can you? I bet you can’t. I bet that it’s all the same to you. Or maybe you can but doing so would be counter-productive to you. All the same from where I’m standing.

          “Maybe you just pick and choose which posters you want to take a face value and which ones you like to demand “citation” from.”

          See above. You’re basically complaining about a non-issue. Oh, and it’s hilarious that you are trying to pass that asking for users to back what they say is a bad thing when you did the very same thing to me:

          https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/jihad-martyrdom-bombers-hit-3-saudi-cities-including-muhammads-mosque-in-medina#comment-1474491

          Peggy says

          July 7, 2016 at 6:59 am

          Angemon says

          July 6, 2016 at 10:15 am

          Indeed, GI, but one of them is aligned with Washington while the other is aligned with Moscow. And guess which one CB defends? You have three tries ?
          ——————————-
          Actually CB has never defended Iran. If you have seen him do that then by all means produce the evidence. He defends Russia but not Iran and I have even read his post where he admits that Iran is also dangerous.
          Evidence please.

          I guess for you it’s wrong when I asked for citations (even though I didn’t do so in this case and therefore it’s a non-issue that you’re seemingly trying to use as a red herring) but not when you do it. There’s a word for that: hypocrisy.

  34. Peggy says

    Sep 16, 2016 at 12:58 am

    Wellington says

    September 16, 2016 at 12:12 am

    I believe I have addressed all of your points, Peggy. But OK, let’s say that noting I have averred is true, then why do you think NATO moved into the fracturing Yugoslavia in the mid-Nineties along with inept UN troops?
    ——————————
    Wellington with all due respect, how have you addressed my points?
    Have you provided any evidence to support your claims? No.
    So how do you think you have addressed anything I said when you haven’t even bothered to answer any of the questions?

    Like I said, you have made a lot of claims but not one source.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 5:53 pm

      Peggy posted:

      “with all due respect, how have you addressed my points?
      Have you provided any evidence to support your claims? No.
      So how do you think you have addressed anything I said when you haven’t even bothered to answer any of the questions?

      Like I said, you have made a lot of claims but not one source.”

      The irony is strong with this one! Funny enough, “irony” rhymes with “hypocrisy”.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 8:16 pm

        Then Angemon why don’t you tell us how and what I said was addressed.
        I provided references in my posts so what irony are you talking about?
        You can’t dispute my statement by trying to discredit me.
        So unless either one of you can show where he has addressed my points there is no further discussion because I really don’t care to get involved in any useless back and forth with either one.

  35. Slavonian says

    Sep 16, 2016 at 1:21 am

    There are many countries which were under Soviet domination which rely on Russia as defender of their freedom and are in no way afraid of Russia invading them. How about Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Abkhasia (the oldest of all those countries, as old as Greece).
    …………………………
    graven image said
    This last is grimly laughable. This is a breakaway province of Georgia, whose existence as a nation is only recognized by Russia and a handful of nations seeking Russian favor–Venezuela, Nicaragua, and the tiny island nation of Nauru. Two other small island nations–Vanuatu and Tuvalu–subsequently withdrew their recognition of Abkhazia.
    I demand that you look up history of Abkhasia from at least several sources and then come back and repeat what you said with a straight face. It was Stalin who demoted the status of Abkhasia from a fully fledged republic status to that of an autonomous province of his native Georgia. The Kingdom of Abkhasia was one of the first Christian kingdoms, and it was a contemporary of Troy. States that do not recognize Abkhasia also conveniently overlook its long history as a sovereign state.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 6:06 pm

      Slavonian posted:

      “The Kingdom of Abkhasia was one of the first Christian kingdoms”

      It lasted 250-300 years and it ended over a thousand of years ago. C’mon, is that the best obfuscation you can got? Pathetic…

      Oh, and instead of telling GI to look up several sources, how about you provide several sources to back your claims? And why did you avoid the rest of GI’s post as if it were the plague?

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 9:33 pm

      Slavonian wrote:

      graven image said
      This last is grimly laughable. This is a breakaway province of Georgia, whose existence as a nation is only recognized by Russia and a handful of nations seeking Russian favor–Venezuela, Nicaragua, and the tiny island nation of Nauru. Two other small island nations–Vanuatu and Tuvalu–subsequently withdrew their recognition of Abkhazia.
      I demand that you look up history of Abkhasia from at least several sources and then come back and repeat what you said with a straight face.
      ………………………………

      You can make a case that so few nations recognizing the modern separate existence of Abkhasia to be unfair, but pretending that this is not factually the case is absurd.

      And why would you assume that I am unfamiliar with the history of Abkhasia?

      More:

      It was Stalin who demoted the status of Abkhasia from a fully fledged republic status to that of an autonomous province of his native Georgia. The Kingdom of Abkhasia was one of the first Christian kingdoms, and it was a contemporary of Troy. States that do not recognize Abkhasia also conveniently overlook its long history as a sovereign state.
      ………………………………

      Not all that long, actually. The Kingdom of Abkhasia existed in assorted forms between 778 AD and 1008 AD. It was under Byzantine dominance until it turned more towards Georgia. Before this the region had fought off attempted Muslim invasion.

      After this, the region unified with Georgia–that is, *well over a thousand years ago*. The idea that this was the doing of Stalin is ridiculous.

      The region did go on to successfully fight off attempts at Muslim conquest, but generally we are now far afield of discussing Jihad. This is off-topic, so I will probably not return to the subject again.

  36. Slavonian says

    Sep 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm

    Wellington said: frankly I’m done with people who are obviously pro–Serbian and who refuse to see things other than from a Serbian point of view.

    Completely untrue, Wellington, I resent your remark; we are not obviously pro-Serbian. How so?
    You omitted the greater truth that we are also staunchly pro-American, pro-European, pro-Russian. One doesn’t exclude the others. we serve our ideals. Ideals are universal, not selective. Conversely, you by being anti-Serb are also as anti-American as shishkebab, just like Clinton and the military-industrial complex. Or will you try and argue that Clinton and the military-industrial complex are serving interests of the American People? Oh, you already did, in other words. Now, all that’s left for you is to repent and chant “Future must not belong to those who slander Islam, Izetbegovic, and the brave Kosovo UCK,” because by being anti-Islam, you’re a little inconsistent. Before you do that,, I’d like to bring out a little long forgotten (by you) episode from history.
    Germany may have lost the Second World War before it began because the original time-table of Barbarossa was disrupted by pro-British Serbian officers who overthrew their pro-German government and established a pro-British one. Serbian people welcomed the change, Hitler flew into a rage, ordered shuffling of his troops into the Balkans, and the rest is history.
    Of course, this does help explain Serbia’s selection for exemplary punishment by NATO bombing. Rather than facing accusations of randomly bombing someone in the Balkans, Britain and America chose to bomb their best friends to show how fair they are .

    • Slavonian says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 2:20 pm

      Damn italics.

    • Wellington says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 5:54 pm

      You can’t, Slavonian, be both pro-American and pro-Russian at the same time since where the American flag has gone ordinarily freedom follows. By contrast, where the Russian flag has gone, there are two options, as George Kennan (hopefully you know who he was) opined well over a half century ago, to wit, vassalage to Russia or being looked upon as an enemy of Russia. Yes, as Kennan, who was fluent in many languages, including Russian, and who briefly served as American Ambassador to the USSR before Stalin demanded his withdrawal for the grave offense of stating the truth about Russia, posited, quite accurately I would argue, Russia looks upon its neighbors as vassals or enemies. This statement by Kennan was true for the Czars, the First Secretaries and now for Putin. Disagree with Kennan’s assessment and I will therefore conclude you are culpable either or ignorance or mendacity.

      Doubt all this I have maintained? Well then, take it up with the folks in Tallinn, Riga, Vilnius, Prague, Warsaw, Bratislava, Budapest, Bucharest———–ah, it’s a very long list you know. And here’s something else: NATO is the greatest military alliance in all of history for the protection and promotion of freedom. Helps to explain why Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians——again it’s a long list——wanted into NATO and why it is oh so telling that Russia has looked upon NATO as an enemy. Speaks volumes I would argue. Yes, the greatest military alliance in history for freedom is welcomed by sundry Eastern Europeans but Russia looks upon NATO as an enemy. Russia has egg on its face here as you do.

      Your turn.

      • Wellington says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 5:58 pm

        “…..either of ignorance or mendacity.” and not “….either or ignorance or mendacity.”

      • Peggy says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 8:12 pm

        Wellington says

        September 16, 2016 at 5:54 pm

        You can’t, Slavonian, be both pro-American and pro-Russian at the same time since where the American flag has gone ordinarily freedom follows
        =====================
        Tell that to the Iraqis. Try the Syrians as well as many others around the globe.
        Any reason why the US has been involved in one war or another without a break since WW2?
        Bringing democracy? More like bringing opportunities for the globalists.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 8:41 pm

          You reveal yourself once and for all, Peggy, as an American hater. To the extent that Iraqis, Syrians, et al. are not free, it is due in spite of America and not because of America. Almost everywhere truly free people do exist in the world today, America had a hand in it.

          Here, try a test. Imagine the last hundred years of mankind going back to 1916 with ONE DIFFERENCE——–no American military. As dark as the last century of mankind has been, and it has been pretty damn dark, it would have been far, far darker if no American military existed. One knows this or should know it. Doesn’t seem you do.

          Does America do wrong at times? You betcha’. But no polity in history has admitted its wrongdoings more than America, sacrificed its young men for the true freedom of others more than America, or done more to make up for its wrongdoings than has America. I don’t think you get any of this.

          And as for Russia, who the hell wants the Russians to liberate them? Doubt me? Then consult the Estonians, Latvians, certainly the Poles and Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, et al. on this matter.

          America, with all its faults, is historically about freedom. Russia, even with all its virtues, is about the dearth of freedom. Try getting this, though I highly doubt you will.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 16, 2016 at 9:37 pm

          Fine post, Wellington.

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 17, 2016 at 12:26 am

        You can’t, Slavonian, be both pro-American and pro-Russian at the same time since where the American flag has gone ordinarily freedom follows. By contrast, where the Russian flag has gone, there are two options, as George Kennan (hopefully you know who he was) opined well over a half century ago, to wit, vassalage to Russia or being looked upon as an enemy of Russia. Yes, as Kennan, who was fluent in many languages, including Russian, and who briefly served as American Ambassador to the USSR before Stalin demanded his withdrawal for the grave offense of stating the truth about Russia, posited, quite accurately I would argue, Russia looks upon its neighbors as vassals or enemies. This statement by Kennan was true for the Czars, the First Secretaries and now for Putin. Disagree with Kennan’s assessment and I will therefore conclude you are culpable either or ignorance or mendacity.
        I disagree with Kennan’s assessment. There, what did you conclude? First of all, you are what you are. If you are a small nation but you feel and act free, all the big nations see you for who you are and act accordingly. This applies to Russia as well. Kennan sees in his own terms, but there is more to reality than his narrow view.
        According to Keenan, there should be far more meddling by Russia in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirgistan, Tajikistan, Mongolia, which I just don’t see. All news from those places seems to be generated by local factors.
        Moreover, I have no idea why nations liberated by Russia, whether from the Ottomans or Nazi Germany should feel like vassals rather than friends. This is entirely a wish in Keenan’s mind. Tsarist Russia was mostly a positive factor in international affairs throughout history as it stood in the way of the Mongols, Islam, and Germans seeking world domination. It was also very noble of the last tsar to go to the aid of Serbia. The world war which resulted wasn’t Tsar’s fault, was it? Unfortunately, Russia lost it even before Germany. On the other hand, I believe that Tsars did not allow Poland, the Baltic countries, and Finland enough autonomy, or sovereignty. It’s the best way to make good friends.
        Hpw do you comment the fact that England, and France fought the Crimean war to perpetuate Turkish hold on vast swathes of occupied Europe? As history and geopolitics go, that was a short time ago.
        Saving Assad was also a plus for Russia, if not for Russia, NATO was a cinch to bomb him. If that had happened, Syria would be three times the nightmare it is now.
        You announce that Russia sees NATO as an enemy. Guess what, if I were Russia, I’d view NATO as a potential enemy. too. According to NATO circles, it’s the only thing stopping Russia from invading its former colleagues from the Warsaw Pact.
        My frank opinion? Total bunk, totally manufactured! I would put my money on Russia not invading NATO countries even if they disarmed themselves and stood there in just underwear. Tell me one reason why Russia should invade non-threatening Europe? Are you off your rocker, or are you mendacious? Why do you speak out against NATO – Russian alliance? Without this alliance, the war against Islam cannot be won. What am I to conclude?
        Depending on your answer, I shall conclude that you are either psychotic or on the Saudi payroll.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 6:47 pm

          NATO, the greatest military alliance in the history of mankind for the protection and promotion of freedom, and which alliance sundry Eastern European nations like Poland, the Czech Republic, Estonia and Latvia want to be a part of, but which Russia sees as an enemy, rather says it all.

          And respecting the specific assertion that Russia would not invade “NATO countries even if they disarmed themselves,” you rather prove my point unwittingly. For example, when the Czech Republic and Poland were ready to accept an EXTREMELY limited missile shield to protect said nations against a rogue missile or two from a polity like Iran, Putin’s reply was that this threatened Russia. OMG!. A very limited missile shield which could take down a missile or two when Russia could launch literally hundreds, if not thousands, of missiles against the Czechs and Poles and this still threatened Russia.

          You unwittingly, very unwittingly make my point, Kennan’s too. Kennan was correct. You are wrong. Learn this truth, though I doubt you ever will. Done here.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 7:38 pm

          Having issues with Russian aggression against her neighbors means that one is “psychotic or on the Saudi payroll”? That’s just absurd.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 6:05 pm

      Slavonian posted:

      “Conversely, you by being anti-Serb are also as anti-American as shishkebab”

      Rubbish. This is the same co-opting we see in, for example, SJWs or islamic apologists – “if you are this then you must also be that”. And the claim that Wellington is “anti-Serb”? Nonsense without a shred of truth behind it, and it would only fly on a world where the accusation is the evidence – again, a parallel with SWJ/islamic apologist tactics.

      “Britain and America chose to bomb their best friends”

      They “chose” to do what? Prove it.

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 17, 2016 at 12:45 am

        If you can’t see that Serbia was America’s and Britain’s best friend in the Balkans before and after the Second World War, I give up on trying to get through to you. You’re dreaming if you think yourself not anti-American. Americans act and think in terms of what is the best for the entire American nation; you are being divisive.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 9:33 pm

          Slavonian posted:

          “If you can’t see that Serbia was America’s and Britain’s best friend in the Balkans before and after the Second World War, I give up on trying to get through to you.”

          Quick tip: the best way to “get through” to me involves backing your claim. Since you refuse to do so, it’s same to assume that “getting through” to me is not something you are actually trying to do. Anyway, again with the same cop-out – try and leave the argument without ever having to prove your point.

          “You’re dreaming if you think yourself not anti-American. Americans act and think in terms of what is the best for the entire American nation; you are being divisive.”

          OK, there’s so much wrong with that that I don’t even know where to begin. “Americans act and think in terms of what is the best for the entire American nation”. Hillary seems to act and think in terms of what is best to the American nation. So does Trump. And Sanders. And Ted Cruz. 4 different platforms, all seemingly wanting the best for the nation – at least going by what they profess and what their followers think. I could go on and on, but I believe my point is made clear. “Act and think in terms of what’s best for the nation” is an umbrella term that can be applied to pretty much anything. I’m being divisive? Since when “the best for the nation”is a collective hive mind where there’s no dissent? When did America turn into Communist Russia? Dissent is good. Bad ideas get thrown into the trash bin. Good ideas can come and replace the current ones with something better. How does that go again? “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” No, having dissenting opinions is quintessentially American – the First Amendment protects people who profess ideas that can be “divisive”. What do you think it happened when the Founding Fathers declared Independence? It was a divisive move, was it not?

          Of course, all of this will go over your head because you are simply throwing the accusation of being “anti-American” to anyone whose speech you don’t like. You accused someone of being anti-Serb and therefore anti-American. Why was Wellington allegedly anti-Serb? Because you didn’t like what he said regarding the war in the Balkans – no more, no less. That’s the level of discourse you have going. Is it any wonder that you’re getting clobbered?

      • Peggy says

        Sep 19, 2016 at 7:45 am

        Prove it?
        Where have you been? Did you miss the whole bombing of Belgrade?
        Operation Storm was also done with US help. Operation Storm is expulsion of 200,000 Serbs from Croatia and while they were fleeing they were getting bombed. Gee, I wonder who was supporting this.

  37. Slavonian says

    Sep 16, 2016 at 4:11 pm

    OMG, this is going to be a long post, GI. I’m going to reply and then take a long sabbatical break.

    gravenimage says

    September 15, 2016 at 6:05 pm

    Slavonian wrote:

    Thanks for replying to my questions, guys. It’s evident, although you didn’t go into details, that you stick to the official policy in regards to the aforementioned issues.
    ………………………………

    What “official policy” might that be? The general one of the free West disapproving of a strong man assassinating his critics? Well, you are right there.

    Pure nonsense, it’s not in Putin’s interests to have his critics murdered; if for no other reason than the one that his critics mostly shoot themselves in the foot by embracing ridiculously irrational views.

    I said:
    In the other case, if you are well informed – then you must form your views basing on motivation which is totally unlike mine. Our standards differ, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine what dark instincts drive you to, for instance, wish to keep Crimea under the boot of Bandera’s battallions, have its cities shelled, and so on.
    ………………………………

    Who here said they wanted to see the Crimea shelled? This is calumny–as is the implication that if one had any issues with Communist aggression that one must, perforce, be a Fascist sympathizer.

    The fact is that civilized people reject both of these totalitarian ideologies–along with totalitarian Islam.

    Anyone saying that Russia invaded Crimea, and that Crimea should be Ukrainian, gives tacit agreement to the Crimean folks being given the same medicine as the folks of Donbas by the fascist Bandera battalions like the Azov Battallion.

    Yet more:

    “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests”. __________ That’s a very general statement _ what does Putin see as the best interests of the Islamic world? Perhaps, he means Secularism..
    ………………………………

    I doubt it. Putin–although a staunch Communist and member of the KGB at one time, has since rather publicly rejected Secularism. Moreover, the idea that the Islamic world has ever considered Secularism to be among its interests is just laughable.

    Putin was never a staunch communist. Like many other Russians who had brought the downfall of Communism in Russia about, he has always been a technocrat and elitist. Moreover, secularism is indeed in the Islamic world’s best interest. The Egyptian leadership thinks so, Iraq’s Hussein had acted accordingly, the Afghan officers did as well, at one time before being punished by America, and there were and are other nominal Muslims who fall into this category.

    “However, he never said, “The future must not belong to those who slander Islam.” The latter is them fighting words, the former is what almost all politicians say all the time.”
    ………………………………

    The difference is that all Anti-Jihadists here are appalled by the current occupant of the White House having said this about Islam.

    “Obama vs. free speech: ‘The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam’”

    https://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/09/obama-vs-free-speech-the-future-must-not-belong-to-those-who-slander-the-prophet-of-islam

    How can you have missed this?

    I have not, but I also didn’t miss the fact that some of the same people subscribe to the anti-Putin hysteria.

    Whereas, many Russian apologists cannot bring themselves to offer a word of criticism for Putin or others in the east doing their own pandering to Islam.

    Try me!

    Putin has also enabled a nuclear Iran and has allowed his puppet in Chechnya to impose Shari’ah law there.

    As bad as thing are in the West, no nation there has official Shari’ah law in any of its jurisdictions.

    Re Iran, Putin has prevented Iran’s bombing by either Israel or NATO, which is good. Iran has renounced nuclear weapons, and the agreement was multi-partite, with the participation of the USA.
    Re Sharia in Chechnya, the fact has two sides, the good and the bad. The good is that Russia is a federation, Chechnya is a republic and thus it is allowed a measure of independence. No one is cutting off hands of thiefs, stoning women, the death penalty doesn’t exist; so this Sharia is a little iffy. The terrorism has all but stopped, and the incorrigible Chechens are mostly abroad fighting for ISIL, Taliban, and the Ukrainian government. They won’t be allowed to return without repenting and being punished. The bad part is that Islam is aallowed to exist, period. Kudos to Putin for solving the Chechen issue as well as possible.

    And Putin has glowingly said, “some analysts of Christianity say Orthodoxy is in many respects closer to Islam than to the Catholics” .

    Certainly, Orthodox priests are allowed to marry just like imams and Baptist priests. Voila, Baptism is closer to Islam in some aspects than catholicism 🙂

    And it is not just Putin; Patriarch Kirill has lauded Muslim immigration, even chiding the West for her concern over letting in millions of rapist Muslims:

    Agreed, Kirill is an idiot wearing a $15,000 watch!

    “Unlike the West, which is already nervous about the arrival of refugees, Moscow alone has taken in more Muslims than the whole of Europe has done by now. And nobody in the world is aware of it. And there is no hysteria, no police, no gas, no physical clashes.”

    Agreed, Muscovites are idiots and so is Putin for allowing it to happen, although I must stipulate that Moscow’s mayor and city hall bear most responsibilty there.

    Of course, this is also untrue; it ignores the hideous Jihad terror attacks on Moscow’s theater, metro, and airport.

    Yes!

    He also praised the genocidal head of Fatah Mahmoud Abbas on opening a huge Mosque in the heart of Moscow.

    Well, I’m not Jewish, but I’m a Zionist, so I must agree with you there.

    None of this is to say that Russia and the East have been over all worse on Islam than has the West–just that while both sporadically defend against Jihad, that they both are as apt to respond with appeasement as anything else.

    Exactly – united we stand, divided we fall – so the moral here must be that Russia, the rest of Europe, and N.America must unite, become the best of friends and allies in order to face common enemies, be they Islam, or the somewhat less alien potential Invaders from Space…

    • Slavonian says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 4:17 pm

      damn italics!

    • Angemon says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 6:01 pm

      Slavonian posted;

      “Pure nonsense, it’s not in Putin’s interests to have his critics murdered;”

      And yet, they keep getting murdered in suspicious circumstances when looking into Putin…

      “if for no other reason than the one that his critics mostly shoot themselves in the foot by embracing ridiculously irrational views.”

      “Shoot themselves in the foot” – or get shot in other body parts…

      “Moreover, secularism is indeed in the Islamic world’s best interest.”

      According to whom? The millions and millions of muslims worldwide who protest against it? I guess you and Putin just know what’s better for the islamic world while the millions and millions of muslims who compose it don’t. Oh, and let’s not get quagmired in an unrelated subject – you, not Putin, made the claim about secularism. Unless you can prove that Putin meant he wanted to impose secularism in the islamic world, it’s a moot point.

      “The Egyptian leadership thinks so,”

      Secularism and pan-arabism are not the same thing.

      “the Afghan officers did as well”

      But not the Afghans who rebelled against the KGB-backed government and prompted the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.

      “I have not, but I also didn’t miss the fact that some of the same people subscribe to the anti-Putin hysteria.”

      And again with the vague accusations. “Some of the same people”? What, no names? “Anti-Putin hysteria”? Is that your doublespeak for “any criticism of Putin”?

      “Try me!”

      You have been tried and found wanting. A simple look at how you tried to spin Putin’s speech as meaning that he wanted secularism for the islamic world and that those were “fighting words” is more than enough evidence to make GI’s case.

      “Re Iran, Putin has prevented Iran’s bombing by either Israel or NATO, which is good.”

      For Iran.

      “Iran has renounced nuclear weapons”

      This official announcement from the islamic Republic of Iran must have been lost under the avalanche of threats and promises of developing nuclear weapons and use them against Israel…

      “and the agreement was multi-partite”

      The agreement that simply delays Iran’s nuclear weapon capabilities for 10 years – assuming Iran sticks to it.

      “Certainly, Orthodox priests are allowed to marry just like imams and Baptist priests. Voila, Baptism is closer to Islam in some aspects than catholicism”

      Besides chronologically challenged you’re also numerically challenged since you seemingly think “one” is the same as “many”. Oh, and the issue here is islam, not Baptist priests. I’ll just copy/paste here what GI noted: “many Russian apologists cannot bring themselves to offer a word of criticism for Putin”.

      • Wellington says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 7:09 pm

        Seconded, Angemon.

      • gravenimage says

        Sep 16, 2016 at 9:46 pm

        Good post, Angemon.

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 10:53 pm

      Slavonian wrote:

      [GI]: What “official policy” might that be? The general one of the free West disapproving of a strong man assassinating his critics? Well, you are right there.

      Pure nonsense, it’s not in Putin’s interests to have his critics murdered; if for no other reason than the one that his critics mostly shoot themselves in the foot by embracing ridiculously irrational views.
      ………………………….

      There is ample evidence that Putin regularly has his critics assassinated; this is quite common with strong men.

      And how is it “irrational” to oppose authoritarianism, the quashing of freedom, and the killing of journalists? Most of us here consider this both moral and rational.

      More:

      I said:
      In the other case, if you are well informed – then you must form your views basing on motivation which is totally unlike mine. Our standards differ, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine what dark instincts drive you to, for instance, wish to keep Crimea under the boot of Bandera’s battallions, have its cities shelled, and so on.
      ………………………………

      Who here said they wanted to see the Crimea shelled? This is calumny–as is the implication that if one had any issues with Communist aggression that one must, perforce, be a Fascist sympathizer.

      The fact is that civilized people reject both of these totalitarian ideologies–along with totalitarian Islam.

      Anyone saying that Russia invaded Crimea, and that Crimea should be Ukrainian, gives tacit agreement to the Crimean folks being given the same medicine as the folks of Donbas by the fascist Bandera battalions like the Azov Battallion.
      ………………………….

      Again, the idea that opposing Russian aggression is “fascist” is ridiculous. As I noted, most of us here reject both tyrannical ideologies. But for someone who cannot recognize democracy and freedom, I suppose assuming that the only options are assorted flavors of tyranny should not surprise.

      Yet more:

      “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests”. __________ That’s a very general statement _ what does Putin see as the best interests of the Islamic world? Perhaps, he means Secularism..
      ………………………………

      I doubt it. Putin–although a staunch Communist and member of the KGB at one time, has since rather publicly rejected Secularism. Moreover, the idea that the Islamic world has ever considered Secularism to be among its interests is just laughable.

      Putin was never a staunch communist. Like many other Russians who had brought the downfall of Communism in Russia about, he has always been a technocrat and elitist.
      ………………………….

      Putin was indeed quite high up in the KGB for many years. The idea that he was merely a Soviet citizen who quietly opposed Communism is a bit of a stretch… In fact, the KGB served as the internal enforcer–often very brutal–for state Communism.

      More:

      Moreover, secularism is indeed in the Islamic world’s best interest.
      ………………………….

      Well, I might believe that Secularism–or any turning away from the vile creed of Islam–is in the long run in the best interest for those who are enslaved under that vicious creed.

      But pretending that this is what Putin meant when he said, “Russia is the most reliable partner of the Islamic world and most faithful defender of its interests” strains credulity. No Muslim nation would believe they are having their interests defended by weakening the power of Islam.

      More:

      The Egyptian leadership thinks so, Iraq’s Hussein had acted accordingly, the Afghan officers did as well, at one time before being punished by America, and there were and are other nominal Muslims who fall into this category.
      ………………………….

      The idea that Egyptian leadership is “Secular” is ludicrous. Here is what is going on in Egypt:

      “Egyptian Christian teens sentenced for ‘defaming Islam’ flee to Switzerland”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/egyptian-christian-teens-sentenced-for-defaming-islam-flee-to-switzerland

      Christians are regularly persecuted there, and Islamic norms are enforced. Things are marginally less awful than they were under the Morsi, but this *hardly* makes Egypt “Secular”.

      The idea that either Saddam Hussein or Afghan officers or any era were “Secular” is absurd, as well.

      More:

      “However, he never said, “The future must not belong to those who slander Islam.” The latter is them fighting words, the former is what almost all politicians say all the time.”
      ………………………………

      The difference is that all Anti-Jihadists here are appalled by the current occupant of the White House having said this about Islam.

      “Obama vs. free speech: ‘The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam’”…

      How can you have missed this?

      I have not, but I also didn’t miss the fact that some of the same people subscribe to the anti-Putin hysteria.
      ………………………….

      How is noting that Putin has also enabled Jihad “anti-Putin hysteria”?

      More:

      Whereas, many Russian apologists cannot bring themselves to offer a word of criticism for Putin or others in the east doing their own pandering to Islam.

      Try me!
      ………………………….

      I believe I was.

      More:

      Putin has also enabled a nuclear Iran and has allowed his puppet in Chechnya to impose Shari’ah law there.

      As bad as thing are in the West, no nation there has official Shari’ah law in any of its jurisdictions.

      Re Iran, Putin has prevented Iran’s bombing by either Israel or NATO, which is good.
      ………………………….

      Your response to Putin’s enabling of the horrific Islamic Republic of Iran is that this is a *good* thing? How, exactly? And when did NATO ever talk about nuking Iran?

      Apparently you believe it is Putin’s job to protect a brutal Shari’ah state, and instead consider civilized Israel and NATO your enemies. Why are you even posing as an Anti-Jihadist?

      More:

      OK–so Iran has renounced nuclear weapons, and the agreement was multi-partite, with the participation of the USA.
      ………………………….

      What absolute rot. Russia has been selling nuclear components to Iran. The idea that Iran has renounced nuclear weapons could not be more ridiculous:

      “Secret document lifts Iran nuke constraints, halving time it will take for Iran to build a bomb”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/secret-document-lifts-iran-nuke-constraints-halving-time-it-will-take-for-iran-to-build-a-bomb

      More:

      Re Sharia in Chechnya, the fact has two sides, the good and the bad. The good is that Russia is a federation, Chechnya is a republic and thus it is allowed a measure of independence. No one is cutting off hands of thiefs, stoning women, the death penalty doesn’t exist; so this Sharia is a little iffy.
      ………………………….

      And now you are spouting apologia for *Shari’ah law”? *Good God*.

      We aren’t seeing the full application of Shari’ah in Chechnya yet–but we weren’t seeing it at all until Putin’s puppet Kadyrov was installed. He is already enforcing veiling and condoning “Honor Killings”. I would have though that any Anti-Jihadist would refrain from condoning these horrors.

      Kadyrov is still extending his hold on the country; there will be more to come.

      con’d

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 16, 2016 at 10:56 pm

      con’d

      More:

      The terrorism has all but stopped, and the incorrigible Chechens are mostly abroad fighting for ISIL, Taliban, and the Ukrainian government.
      ………………………….

      Lumping in the democratic Ukraine with *ISIL and the Taliban* is simply calumny–and another sign that opposing Jihad is not really much of a focus for you.

      The fact is that Chechens are fighting on *both* sides of the conflict–there are many fighting for Russia–because Muslims love bloodshed.

      And the idea that it is a *good* thing that Russia is supplying Jihadists–reportedly more than from any other source–for ISIS is deeply disturbing.

      There are Muslims who used the West a base of operations who have now joined ISIS–I and most others here are deeply concerned by this; we are not applauding it.

      More:

      They won’t be allowed to return without repenting and being punished. The bad part is that Islam is aallowed to exist, period. Kudos to Putin for solving the Chechen issue as well as possible.
      ………………………….

      Uh…right. Actually, there are serious concerns in Russia about the flood of returning Jihadists.

      There was an article in the National Post just a few days ago:

      “Russia braces for the return of hundreds of jihadists drawn to fight with ISIL”

      http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/russia-braces-for-the-return-of-hundreds-of-jihadists-drawn-to-fight-with-isil

      I don’t believe that the problem of Chechnya has been “solved” at all–just temporarily tabled while Islamic law becomes more deeply entrenched there and Jihadists get more training abroad.

      I hope this is not the case–I don’t want to see Russia suffer any more Jihad terror–but all indicators are pointing to this being *anything* but “solved”.

      More:

      And Putin has glowingly said, “some analysts of Christianity say Orthodoxy is in many respects closer to Islam than to the Catholics” .

      Certainly, Orthodox priests are allowed to marry just like imams and Baptist priests. Voila, Baptism is closer to Islam in some aspects than catholicism
      ………………………….

      Well, this is just silly–rather like claiming that Putin was really talking about Secularism when he said he would protect the interests of the Islamic world.

      He was talking about values and culture–not the marital habits of clerics.

      Now, I disagree with this–I believe that Orthodoxy is *much* closer to all other denominations of Christianity than it is to the foulness of Islam. I would *never* slander Eastern Orthodoxy by comparing it to the horror of Islam.

      More:

      And it is not just Putin; Patriarch Kirill has lauded Muslim immigration, even chiding the West for her concern over letting in millions of rapist Muslims:

      Agreed, Kirill is an idiot wearing a $15,000 watch!
      ………………………….

      I am not one for clerical ostentation, but beyond a point I really don’t care what sort of timepiece he sports. His apologia for Islam is–for me, and for other Anti-Jihadists–the main concern.

      More:

      “Unlike the West, which is already nervous about the arrival of refugees, Moscow alone has taken in more Muslims than the whole of Europe has done by now. And nobody in the world is aware of it. And there is no hysteria, no police, no gas, no physical clashes.”

      Agreed, Muscovites are idiots and so is Putin for allowing it to happen, although I must stipulate that Moscow’s mayor and city hall bear most responsibilty there.
      ………………………….

      I was not singling out Muscovites–I’m not sure the average resident there is happy at all about the flood of Muslims there, or the resulting Jihad terror. And Moscow has not been the only target of Muslim “Hijira”.

      But I find this sort of enabling of Muslim invasion and whitewashing of Islam disturbing whether it occurs in Russia *or* in the West. It is a threat to Infidels everywhere.

      More:

      Of course, this is also untrue; it ignores the hideous Jihad terror attacks on Moscow’s theater, metro, and airport.

      Yes!

      He also praised the genocidal head of Fatah Mahmoud Abbas on opening a huge Mosque in the heart of Moscow.

      Well, I’m not Jewish, but I’m a Zionist, so I must agree with you there.
      ………………………….

      I very much agree with you on both these points, Slavonian.

      More:

      None of this is to say that Russia and the East have been over all worse on Islam than has the West–just that while both sporadically defend against Jihad, that they both are as apt to respond with appeasement as anything else.

      Exactly – united we stand, divided we fall – so the moral here must be that Russia, the rest of Europe, and N.America must unite, become the best of friends and allies in order to face common enemies, be they Islam, or the somewhat less alien potential Invaders from Space…
      ………………………….

      Again, I agree–I would like to see a united front of Infidels defending against Jihad.

  38. Peggy says

    Sep 16, 2016 at 8:27 pm

    Angemon says

    September 16, 2016 at 5:48 pm

    Peggy posted:

    “You haven’t addressed any of my points and just repeated what you said previously.
    If you want to discuss this then you do need to address what I said and asked.”

    Lol! Hilarious coming from you, out of all people!
    —————————————————-
    He hasn’t. Are you denying that?

    • Angemon says

      Sep 17, 2016 at 10:50 am

      Like I said, it’s hilarious seeing you complaining about others allegedly not addressing what you say. Need I point you to the many, many posts where I specifically and unambiguously asked you to address what I wrote instead of insulting, deriding and lying about me? Thought so.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 17, 2016 at 11:12 am

        Wellington says

        September 16, 2016 at 8:41 pm

        You reveal yourself once and for all, Peggy, as an American hater.
        ==================================
        So now I suffer from Americaphobia.
        Instead of accusing me of hating America, which you are very wrong, how about you dispute what I said with facts.
        Can you deny that the US has been in some war continuously since WW2? Can you deny that the CIA has been very busy all that time funding and training various NGOs to cause instability in countries where America wants to install their puppet government?
        This is not hatred for the US but fact.
        You sound like a Muslim, Any criticism of the US or any truth told you must then hate the US. What I hate corrupt US governments who have engaged in all this.

        How about you see a documentary by John Pilger called The War on Democracy and then accuse me of hating America.

        • Wellington says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 4:10 pm

          America has been in some war continuously since WWII?

          Well, I don’t know about continuously but certainly very regularly and this is because most of the world is screwed up and America is the strongest polity, easily so, for the preservation and protection of freedom. Don’t think you get this.

          As for the CIA canard, please realize we don’t live in a perfect world where America has the luxury of supporting only complete and free democracies and so sometimes you have to choose the least bad of bad options. Grow up, will you and learn “stuff” like this.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 9:43 pm

          Peggy posted:

          “How about you see a documentary by John Pilger called The War on Democracy ”

          Great, in addition to whitewashing Stalin now you’re pushing propaganda from a Western-hater tinfoil-hat conspiracy whacko:

          https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/07/west-criminal-bloodbath-iraq-media-cover-up

          That’s Pilger’s take on the war in Iraq. I dare you to find a mention of the mass murder committed by jihadis who plant bombs in markets, restaurants, mosques – anywhere they can create carnage and kill as many people as possible. No, if I were to believe in Pilger those things simply do not happen – every single death in Iraq since 2003 was a murder carried out by Coalition troops.

          Really, Pilger would be right at home in RT.

        • gravenimage says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 11:33 pm

          Peggy wrote:

          How about you see a documentary by John Pilger called The War on Democracy and then accuse me of hating America.
          ………………………..

          I’m afraid citing John Pilger may not be the best way to prove a lack of hatred for America, Peggy. Michael Moore has strong links to this film–he’s hardly any sort of patriot himself.

          Jon Pilger was a big fan of Venezuelan strong man Hugo Chavez.

          More to the point in this context, Pilger is scathing in its criticism of the US waging a “War on Terrorism”.

          He produced a film, “Breaking The Silence: Truth And Lies In The War On Terror”.

          He said: “What are the real aims of this war and who are the most threatening terrorists? Who is responsible for far greater acts of violence than those committed by the fanatics of Al-Qaeda, crimes that have claimed many more lives than September 11th?”.

          He refers to the War on Terrorism as “our terrorism”.

          Really, he is an apologist for Jihad terror, and has a pretty big hatred of America himself.

      • Peggy says

        Sep 17, 2016 at 11:16 am

        Ever considered that I just don’t want to answer YOUR questions?
        As you see, I have no trouble citing some of my sources. How about you or Wellington give some references or links instead of shooting down others without any evidence of what you say.

        • Angemon says

          Sep 17, 2016 at 9:15 pm

          Peggy posted:

          “Ever considered that I just don’t want to answer YOUR questions?”

          Oh, I know you don’t want to. And I know why – because I shot you down completely and, as such, your only resort is to engage in petty personal attacks.

          But thank you for confirming you are, indeed, a hypocrite.

          “How about you or Wellington give some references or links instead of shooting down others without any evidence of what you say.”

          Are you mad? I pointed out that you, on several occasions, refused to answer my questions. You just *admitted* to do so, and yet you demand I give you a reference or a link for something you acknowledge to be true?

          Logic is not your forte, is it?

  39. Slavonian says

    Sep 17, 2016 at 3:21 pm

    GI said:
    None of this is to say that Russia and the East have been over all worse on Islam than has the West–just that while both sporadically defend against Jihad, that they both are as apt to respond with appeasement as anything else.

    I said:
    Exactly – united we stand, divided we fall – so the moral here must be that Russia, the rest of Europe, and N.America must unite, become the best of friends and allies in order to face common enemies, be they Islam, or the somewhat less alien potential Invaders from Space…
    ………………………….

    GI said

    Again, I agree–I would like to see a united front of Infidels defending against Jihad.

    This discussion has now taken a scope I just can’t handle today due to limited time on my hands. However, I’m glad that we arrived to some sort of a consensus that we should unite to present a united front against Islam. This will hardly be possible without Russia, but Russia and Putin are accused of aggression, a reason for not forming a united front. For now, allow me to focus on one such alleged case of Russian aggression – the Georgia versus Abkhazia conflict. Rather than talking myself, let me recommend the following article from the link below. There is also a very interesting discussion after the article. Perhaps, it will let you understand that in this one case, the Russian aggression in Georgia is a straw man argument. Then we can move on and zero on other alleged cases of Russian aggression to see if straw is falling out of them..

    /https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/abkhazia-georgia-and-history-a-response

    Avatar
    Elbrus • 7 years ago

    When at the end of the 19th century many Abkhazians having lost to the Russian Empire fled to Turkey and further, other ethnic groups were competing in resettling the vacated territories. Later when the Bolsheviks came, Abkhazia as well as Georgia became union states with an equal status within the USSR. But Jozef Stalin, Georgian by origin, reduced the status of Abkhazia to an autonomy within Georgia in 1931.

    The Abkhazian language was banned, it was substituted by Georgian. Since the ’30-40s the second wave of Georgian settlers came to Abkhazia. This process continued throughout our existence in the USSR as a Georgian autonomy. That’s how we ended up a minority on our land. The 1990s was the time when Georgian nationalism was at its peak. “Georgia for Georgians” was a popular slogan. All non-Georgians were announced to be “hosts on Georgian land.” Not many people even in the USSR knew that Abkhazians protested against being within Georgia even in the Soviet times, every decade. But in the ’90s these protests became known to the world.

    On 14 August 1992 when the Abkhazian Parliament was discussing a draft proposal for a Federation with Georgia, the Georgian bombs started falling on our heads, and the Georgian tanks attacked our towns and villages. It was a bloody war, with crimes committed first by Georgians and then by Abkhazians. The Georgians purposefully burnt down our State Archives and our Institute of Literature, History and Culture. It was quite symbolic. You can read about all this in the UNPO report that organized a fact finding mission to Abkhazia in 1992. http://www.unpo.org/downloads/…

    You can also read about it in Tom de Waal’s article specifically devoted to the State Archives. http://www.opendemocracy.net/d…

    Mia, see please: http://www.circassianworld.com…

    I am really tired from Georgian lies.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 17, 2016 at 9:11 pm

      Slavonian posted:

      “This discussion has now taken a scope I just can’t handle today due to limited time on my hands.”

      “Taken a scope”? You’ve been trying to make it about Putin. You act as if you’re paid to defend him and whatever action he takes. Which is probably the case:

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

    • gravenimage says

      Sep 18, 2016 at 12:02 am

      I’ve always supported Russia against Jihad terror, and have always said so here.

      That does not mean that I support Russian aggression or the authoritarianism of Putin–so sorry to disappoint.

      After the fall of the Soviet Union, I had hoped that Russia would embrace freedom–but that early promise has been lost, in no small part due to Putin himself. It is not as bad there now as it was under the Soviets, but this is damning with faint praise.

      But I care about the Russian people, and as bad as things are there they would be much worse under Muslim incursions.

      This has always been my position–it has not changed.

      • Slavonian says

        Sep 18, 2016 at 1:08 pm

        Putin happens to be Russian president with widespread backing from the Russian people. Russian presidency happens to come with widespread powers. Yeltsin had them too, but that was okay with the West. Russia did embrace Freedom, it’s a democracy with free elections.
        The Russian aggression is a figment of your imagination. I’ve just stated my case briefly, why this aggression doesn’t exist in relation to Georgia. If you wish, we can proceed to other cases and look at the supposed Russian aggression against, let’s say Ukraine.
        Your supposed altruism towards the Russian people – does it extend to Russian ethnicity in Crimea, and, or, in the territories east of the Dnieper?

        • Angemon says

          Sep 21, 2016 at 10:09 am

          Slavonian posted:

          “The Russian aggression is a figment of your imagination.”

          You’re going to have to try harder than that.

          “Your supposed altruism towards the Russian people – does it extend to Russian ethnicity in Crimea”

          You mean, Ukrainians? Ethnicity is not nationality, you know…

  40. Peggy says

    Sep 17, 2016 at 8:53 pm

    Wellington says

    September 17, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    America has been in some war continuously since WWII?

    Well, I don’t know about continuously but certainly very regularly and this is because most of the world is screwed up and America is the strongest polity, easily so, for the preservation and protection of freedom. Don’t think you get this.

    As for the CIA canard, please realize we don’t live in a perfect world where America has the luxury of supporting only complete and free democracies and so sometimes you have to choose the least bad of bad options. Grow up, will you and learn “stuff” like this.
    ==============================
    Please don’t be so arrogant as to tell me to grow up just because we don’t agree. I get that you think you have the answers others don’t and others must be juvenile to hold different opinions to yours but maybe it’s you who needs to grow up then.
    Again, I ask, what evidence do you have to hold the view that America being the world’s policeman, judge, jury and executioner is done in the name of democracy when we can see the end result of America’s involvement.
    Who gave the US the right to appoint itself to this task? Why would the US spend trillions of dollars and countless casualties over the decades just to be so helpful?
    Maybe you should think like an adult for a change and ask these questions.
    Other countries have engaged in the same tactics but not to the extent the When Russia does it it’s deemed aggression but when the US does it it’s deemed “bringing democracy to the world”.
    Are you that naive or you just want to cling onto this fantasy?

    I pointed out that all this is explained in the documentary by John Pilger. He presents a lot of evidence to back up his claim. What evidence do you present?

    • Angemon says

      Sep 17, 2016 at 9:09 pm

      Peggy posted:

      “Please don’t be so arrogant as to tell me to grow up just because we don’t agree. ”

      Oh, the irony! Sorry, not “irony” – hypocrisy:

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/fbi-top-dog-rise-of-islamophobia-a-concerning-issue#comment-1416730

      Peggy says

      April 14, 2016 at 10:17 pm
      […]Angemon I really don’t care what you think. I have my opinions and you have yours […] Maybe when you grow up and are ready for an adult conversation I might have that with you but until then you are just wasting your time replying to a comment not meant for you.

  41. Peggy says

    Sep 18, 2016 at 2:17 am

    Angemon says

    September 17, 2016 at 9:43 pm

    Peggy posted:

    “How about you see a documentary by John Pilger called The War on Democracy ”

    Great, in addition to whitewashing Stalin now you’re pushing propaganda from a Western-hater tinfoil-hat conspiracy whacko:
    ==============================

    So when did I whitewash Stalin? I dare you to produce one bit of evidence of that. You like to call me a liar but here you are just produced a good one.
    I actually called him a nasty ;piece of sht.

    So do you also think that General Lewis MacKenzie who was in charge of the UN during the Yugoslavia war is also a whacko? Do you also think that former Canadian ambassador John Bissett is also a whacko?

    Here is an article by Gregory Clark which says things you don’t want to hear. Maybe you will call hims a whacko too. This is not a conspiracy theory and many people are saying exactly the same things.

    http://www.gregoryclark.net/jt/page21/page20.html

    If you want to know who Gregory Clark is here is a link.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Clark_(author)

    Maybe you don’t like the messenger like Pilger but that does not mean he is wrong on this issue.

    I know that people on this site want to know the truth even if it is not comfortable but it’s necessary. How else can we keep our governments accountable and stop them from repeating what they do if we don’t want to learn uncomfortable truth.

    General MacKenzie was in charge of the UN during that time so here is a man with a lot of credibility and first hand knowledge. His views are the same.
    In your enthusiasm to shoot down my posts (as usual) you forgot to check out all the sources I quoted. You picked on Pilger and called him a hater etc but let’s see if you can discredit the others.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 21, 2016 at 10:16 am

      Peggy posted:

      “So when did I whitewash Stalin? I dare you to produce one bit of evidence of that. You like to call me a liar but here you are just produced a good one.”

      Boy, you must be really desperate to try to kick up sand like that. Are you trying to pretend my September 15, 2016 at 11:57 am post, where I caled you out on your whitewashing of Stalin, does not exist? Here’s what I said there:

      Peggy posted:

      “Stalin butchered a lot of Russians too and was a very nasty piece of sh.t but he was not a threat to the west.”

      Great, now you’re whitewashing Stalin. How about you say that to the people in Eastern Europe? You know, when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland between them? Or the famine in Ukraine? That Stalin – and the USSR – preferred to subvert and divide to conquer instead of doing it the military way, like Germany tried to (and I suspect we have to thank the US and their status as a superpower for keeping the USSR in check), doesn’t mean Stalin was not a danger to his Western neighbours.

      Do you deny anything I said there? Nope – you simply take a later post that references the thrashing I gave you on that subject to pretend I didn’t back what I said. Oh, and for the record, I explained why I called you a liar. You didn’t rebut that. Because you can’t. Because your lie is right there, in the open.

      “Here is an article by Gregory Clark which says things you don’t want to hear.”

      And now you claim to know what I want to hear or not. Have you considered using your mind-reading skills and make a career in the world of magic? Better not – you’d starve…

      “Maybe you don’t like the messenger like Pilger”

      Nice way to misrepresent my point. Pilger is a conspiracy whacko with an agenda to push. And I made that point perfectly clear when I linked to his trashy article about the Iraq war. You know, when he blamed every single death in Iraq on the Coalition forces while ignoring jihadis who sent suicide bombers into crowded markets.

      “I know that people on this site want to know the truth even if it is not comfortable but it’s necessary. How else can we keep our governments accountable and stop them from repeating what they do if we don’t want to learn uncomfortable truth.”

      Is it truth, for example, that all the deaths in Iraq were caused by the Coalition? Or is your boring platitude just a shield so you can get away with nonsense? Because you don’t care about the truth when you don’t like it.

      “You picked on Pilger and called him a hater etc”

      Nope. I backed my point with one of his articles. One that was in my “hall of shame” scrapbook for a couple of years. I’m confident – nay, certain – that if I were to google for articles of him I’d undoubtedly find the same kind of Anti-Americanism/Westernism in display on other articles. Do you want me to? Do you want me to prove you, again, that Pilger is one of those bigoted people who were seemingly fed anti-Americanism (and anti-Westernism by proxy) instead of mother’s milk?

  42. Slavonian says

    Sep 18, 2016 at 12:35 pm

    Angemon says

    September 17, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    Slavonian posted:

    “This discussion has now taken a scope I just can’t handle today due to limited time on my hands.”

    “Taken a scope”? You’ve been trying to make it about Putin.

    What I took this discussion for was exploration of possibilities of presenting a united front against Islam with Russia, and revisiting the West’s accusations against Russia of aggression. In no way did I take it as singing praises of Putin. Yesterday, I gave you a link to an article, which relates to one aspect of what you call Russian aggression – the supposed Russian aggression against Georgia. If a solid case can be made for Abkhazia’s statehood, then these accusations fall and the mud is on the faces of Western politicians. Let’s review some indisputible facts about Abkhazia:
    1) It was a sovereign kingdom in past times
    2) Abkhazians are ethnically different from Georgians and have their own langiuage
    3) Abkhazia was a fully fledged republic in the USSR, equal on paper to all other republics there
    4) Abkhazia was degraded by Stalin to provincial status and annexed to Georgia
    5) the Abkhazi people clearly demonstrate their wish to be sovereign and to be left alone by Georgia

    So, as I see it, Russian support of Abkhazia is just. NATO, on the other hand, shows unjustified aggression towards the Abkhazi nation.
    Rather than facing these facts, you resorted to accusing me of being Putin’s paid agent – a troll!

    You act as if you’re paid to defend him and whatever action he takes. Which is probably the case:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

    Have you stopped to consider the possibility that I’m not a paid troll, which makes you your post just one big ad hominem? I told you that I will post a little less because I don’t have too much time and you responded with your accusations. Did you stop to think that if I were a troll, I’d actually post more, way more? If I made my living this way, I’d be starved by now.
    Come to think of it, it’s you who posts all the time, and whose position on Russia is indistinguishable from Clinton’s, Biden’s, McCain’s. You make sure that there will be no united front. The frequency and the low quality of your posting indicates that that you are likely a paid agent-provocateur for Soros, and the Saudis.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 21, 2016 at 10:20 am

      Slavonian posted:

      “What I took this discussion for was exploration of possibilities of presenting a united front against Islam with Russia”

      The same Russia who is demonizing the West?

      “and revisiting the West’s accusations against Russia of aggression.”

      Ah, so it’s a racket – if you want Russia to be your ally against islam, you netter not say that Russia, who invaded exclusive sovereign territory of other nations, is being “aggressive”. Got it.

      “Let’s review some indisputible facts about Abkhazia:
      1) It was a sovereign kingdom in past times
      ”

      Like I said, it lasted 250-300 yers and ended over 100 years ago. But Abkhazia is just a red herring here.

      “Rather than facing these facts, you resorted to accusing me of being Putin’s paid agent – a troll!”

      No, I simply raised that possibility based on the available evidence, which includes your behaviour.

      “Have you stopped to consider the possibility that I’m not a paid troll, which makes you your post just one big ad hominem?”

      No, it doesn’t.

      “I told you that I will post a little less because I don’t have too much time”

      After several users called you out on your posts. Coincidence, I’m sure….

      “and you responded with your accusations.”

      Nope. I addressed your points and raised a very likely possibility.

      “Did you stop to think that if I were a troll, I’d actually post more, way more?”

      Not if you want to be conspicuous.

      “If I made my living this way, I’d be starved by now.”

      I have no idea which other sites you post on.

      “Come to think of it, it’s you who posts all the time”

      Far from it.

      “and whose position on Russia is indistinguishable from Clinton’s, Biden’s, McCain’s.”

      You’re going to have to explain that. Or is the accusation the evidence? Simply throw in “you’re similar to Clinton, Biden, McCain” and you have it set? You know, like a troll?

      “You make sure that there will be no united front.”

      Yes, I’m sure that my posts here are read anxiously by heads of state who base their policies on them… /sarc. off

      “The frequency”

      Because there’s a rule saying one can only, for example, log in once a day, right?

      “and the low quality of your posting”

      I’ll give your unsubstantiated criticism tall the consideration and weight I usually give to trolls pushing an agenda.

      “indicates that that you are likely a paid agent-provocateur for Soros, and the Saudis.”

      I’m not paid by anyone to post comments anywhere. Anyone minimally acquainted with my posting history can attest I would be a terrible “paid agent-provocateur for Soros, and the Saudis”, seeing how numerous my criticism of the Saudis and the likes of Soros is. Your accusation makes no sense, and seeing how detached from reality it is, it’s exactly the kind of feeble ruse one would expect from a feeble-minded paid troll to come up with.

    • Angemon says

      Sep 21, 2016 at 10:28 am

      P.S.:

      “Come to think of it, it’s you who posts all the time… The frequency and the low quality of your posting”

      Funny how that accusation comes at a time where I’m actually posting a lot less. Like I said, detached from reality.

  43. Kathy says

    Oct 19, 2016 at 10:16 pm

    Problems in former Yugoslavia started on Kosovo (muslims started the troubles there), and then Americans and NATO supported them, so the war started. Together with enormous propaganda (from US), it turn to something that was not a case.
    Wherever muslims are, there are problems. Wherever US messes up, problems become more complicated and often does not ever finish as bad people appear in all these conflicts, as ISIS/ISIL did after Americans messed up things.
    So, at first Kosovo was a problem of Serbia and Yugoslavia, and now it is a big problem in Europe, as a center of all kinds of criminality: drugs, weapons, prostitution, illegal money transfers etc.

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