It has now been five weeks since my debate with Msgr. Stuart Swetland, president of Donnelly College in Kansas City, Kansas, during which he stated his opinion that those who believe that Islam is not a religion of peace had placed themselves in a state of disobedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church:
Msgr. Swetland then expanded upon this bizarre opinion in a statement he sent me for publication here at Jihad Watch; you can find it here. It is preposterous, of course, to think that the Catholic hierarchy has any competence to speak about the teachings of a different religion, and if Msgr. Swetland is right, then the Catholic Church’s claims to authority are exploded entirely, for it is forcing assent to a falsehood. But in his statement, Msgr. Swetland writes: “Robert Spencer’s positions seem to be at odds with the magisterial teachings on what authentic Islam is and what Catholic are called to do about it (accept immigrants, avoid hateful generalizations, show esteem and respect, etc.) At least in the area of morals, Robert seems to be a dissenter from the papal magisterium.”
It doesn’t matter how often Leftist and Islamic supremacist groups (SPLC, CAIR, etc.) repeat that to oppose jihad terror and Sharia supremacism is “hateful”; no amount of repetition will make it true. I have never engaged in “hateful generalizations” or failed, to the best of my ability, to “show esteem and respect” to everyone. Thus I asked him here to retract that charge. In a subsequent email, I asked him either to substantiate it with a quotation from me that was verifiably a “hateful generalization,” or retract the charge. Msgr. Swetland replied that, as a college president, he was busy, busy, frightfully busy, and objected to my having said that he held that Islam was a religion of peace. That was downright weird, since he had essentially read me out of the Catholic Church for thinking otherwise. I asked him to clarify, but he ignored this, and likewise ignored several more respectful requests that he either substantiate or retract his claim that I engaged in “hateful generalizations” regarding Islam and Muslims.
This ugly little episode illustrates I have noticed previously among Leftist Christian clerics: despite the high regard that Christianity places upon being charitable, they seem to feel no obligation to be charitable to those whose views they dislike. Apparently a Catholic who doesn’t believe that Islam is a religion of peace has no rights they feel bound to respect. Thus when I was canceled from speaking engagements by Bishops Robert McManus of Worcester, Massachusetts; Jaime Soto of Sacramento; and Kevin Farrell of Dallas; I wrote to each of them, requesting a face-to-face meeting during which I could attempt to clear my name of the charges that had been made against me. Not only did I not get any meetings, but none of them even deigned to answer my letters. This contrasts sharply, I’m sure, with the solicitude and kindness that they show to those whose opinions are more acceptable to them. At a Catholic college, Saint Anselm College in New Hampshire, I was assaulted by an unhinged security guard and banned from the campus after university officials quashed several attempts to have me speak. When I wrote politely to Neil Levesque of Saint Anselm’s New Hampshire Institute of Politics, which was directly responsible for the ban, asking for information about why I was banned, he had a corrupt cop from the Goffstown, New Hampshire police department threaten me with arrest if I contacted Levesque again. Apparently these bishops, the Saint Anselm administrators, and other Catholics like them believe that there is an exemption in the obligation to be charitable when it comes to those whose political views are unacceptable.
That’s all right. I don’t have any interest in going where I’m not wanted, and if I’m not welcome in the Catholic Church because of what I say about Islam, so be it, because what I say about Islam is true and accurate. Certainly there is a concerted effort to read people who don’t believe that Islam is a religion of peace out of the Catholic Church, with the Saudi-funded Bridges Initiative at Georgetown University (a Catholic University) claiming that a minority of Catholics have negative views of Islam because my books are sold in Catholic bookstores. (Bridges’ high regard for accuracy can be seen in its claim that I am affiliated with the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI); I do not have that honor.) If any Catholics have negative views of Islam, it is not because of me, but because of Osama bin Laden, and Anwar al-Awlaki, and Mohamed Atta, and Nidal Hasan, and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and Ibrahim Simpson and Nadir Soofi, and Syed Rizwan Farouk and Tashfeen Malik, and other Islamic jihadis in the U.S. and around the world.
There needs to be a realistic and searching discussion about Islamic doctrine and its implications. That discussion needs to be held both inside the Catholic Church and outside it. But Catholic clerics such as McManus, Swetland and their ilk appear content to defame and run rather than engage in it.
Kurt W. says
Two things:
1. I listened to the exchange on Relevant radio and you were spot on.
2. Is Msgr. Swetland your Bishop? Answer: No. Then he can have an opinion and you can have yours. He thinks you are wrong, so at this point shake the dust from your sandals and walk away. If you were libeled, take him to court. But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong. Until then, stop whining about leaving the Church. You sound like my eight year old when she doesn’t get her way.
Robert Spencer says
1. Please quote me where I was “whining about leaving the church.” This is a rather hysterical mischaracterization of what I actually wrote.
2. My bishop does say I’m wrong. Yet still I am not wrong.
Ian H says
Quite obviously so Robert. And it reflects well on you that you can say it.
Religions claim to provide answers to the big questions of meaning and purpose, of true and false, and of right and wrong. Often people turn to religion precisely because it answers to these questions. But some of these questions should not be answered. The question of what is true and the question of what is moral, must be reconsidered and answered anew each time life raises it. I see it as the obligation of a moral thinking being to do this and to think about what is true and what is moral for themselves.
Religions provide a kind of cheat sheet for life; a list of moral absolutes and rigid rules about behavior which substitutes for having to think about truth or morality. This risks turning the excessively religious into a mob of amoral mindless robots who do and believe what they are told. The extent to which this is a problem depends on what their religion tells them to believe and do. If it tells them to love one another and be kind of strangers then probably no harm. But if it tells them to kill witches, they kill witches. If it tells them to burn babies they burn babies. If it tells them to strike necks they strike necks. If it tells them to allow a child to die for lack of a blood transfusion they will do it. And if it tells them to believe that Islam is the religion of peace, they will even believe that too. They don’t think for themselves about whether these things are moral or right. The cheat sheet of life provides all their answers.
That is why as an atheist I am wary of all the excessively religious. You can’t trust their morality and their minds may be closed and impervious to truth. Of course not all the religious behave in this way. Many still do think for themselves about morality and truth despite having the cheat sheet of life. They look at the cheat sheet and may be advised by it, but they still think for themselves.
These are the people who are prepared to say, as you have just done “Yet still I am not wrong.” Those are powerful words. These are the people who are prepared to assert that planets go around the sun and God didn’t make humanity from clay in one day. These are the people who say, “I don’t care what the bible says, I see no evidence for witches and burning people to death is murder”. The efforts of these sorts of people have over the centuries ground the hard edges off Christianity and turned it into the generally benign religion it is today. Islam has them too, but sadly most get nowhere and many are killed. Islam by its nature is violent, repressive and resistant to reform.
Truth 101 says
Wow, you really have no understanding of what legitimate religion is. The problem is that you’re a moral relativist. You talk about the importance of thinking, but you prove that you’ve done precious little of it.
Mark Swan says
Absolutely
Jimdandi says
The fact that you can think logically and encourage others to do so is evidence for a Creator God who is orderly in His creation of the universe. Evolution is a belief in randomness and chaos that would prevent any orderliness in the universe.
Les says
Dear Ian
That sounded like a lot of rationalization to hide from acknowledging the obvious truth that there is one uncreated, non contingent, revealed, loving and very patient God.
Don’t be afraid to admit that there is one God and if you seek His help I guarantee your that your life will profoundly change for the better
billybob says
Strange that I found myself in agreement with your thesis most all the way, yet I am NOT an atheist. I especially liked this: “The question of what is true and the question of what is moral, must be reconsidered and answered anew each time life raises it.”
And I agree with this (with a small modification): “Religions (for some people) provide a kind of cheat sheet for life; a list of moral absolutes and rigid rules about behavior which substitutes for having to think about truth or morality. This risks turning the excessively religious into a mob of amoral mindless robots who do and believe what they are told.”
Where I ran into disagreement with you was near then end, when you display your ignorance of Christianity with this line…
“The efforts of these sorts of people have over the centuries ground the hard edges off Christianity and turned it into the generally benign religion it is today.”
Christianity never ever had any “hard edges “. What is Christianity? For me, it can only be defined by the message and example of its founder, Jesus Christ. After all, it is called “Chirstianity. Jesus was a benign, loving, peaceful man with a beautiful message. No rough or hard edges to be found in it anywhere. I would suggest you read his message and his biography. You may find inspiration in it.
Of course all through history there were individuals and organizations who lusted after wealth and power, a story as old as humanity itself. Some of these even cloaked themselves with the mantle of Christianity to disguise their motivation, but I can assure you they never got any inspiration or encouragement from Christ. It all came from their own dark psyches. “Christianity” is not to blame.
David says
There are today the strange notions that we live in the “magisterium of the now” or “the magisterium of whatever the pope says off the cuff”. Besides being strange, these two notions are just not actual magisterial Teaching.
For a monsignor to use these illegitimate teachings as a means to accuse someone of heresy is disgraceful.
Tom Davis says
billybob, Christianity once DID have hard edges. It acquired them whenever it decided to stop being peaceful and became hard to defend itself against Islam.
Bridget Ames says
Robert do not let the scandal of this guy scare you out of the true religion that is what Satan wants. They try this with the death penalty too. They will claim it is against Church teaching even though you can hold either opinion. He is one very misinformed person and it is clear to anyone who listened to him talk on the subject. He does owe you an apology but unfortunately you will likely receive none. Pride goes before the fall. We have a Pope who believe he is an monarch who can basically alter whatever teachings he wills. Ever since V2 many have not been properly educated in the Faith Priest and Clergy are no different. I had to rely on the Holy Ghost myself. I appreciate the eastern rite and all it’s beauty, please don’t leave cause of that jerk.
mark says
So what are you calling the holy spirit, your own thoughts? or another spirit masquarading as God?
One thing for sure, the Holy Spirit does not lead into falsehood.. ie what you refer to as the true religion.
mark says
P.S. Many have come out of rome after finding out how in reality, it is utterly false to God and His Word, the Holy Bible. Often the intial questioning would have been the lying nature of its supposed leaders, let alone their ignorance.
linnte says
100% agree Mr. Spencer. You have taken on the armor of Christ. You never say anything hateful. You always correctly quote Qur’an and Hadith’s. If Muslims converted to Christianity today you would be the first to rejoice! What Jesus gave us is freedom of choice and freedom to follow our God Given Passion doing HIS work.
This saddens me greatly that you even need to have to deal with this. Praying for you always, sincerely, Linda Clark
old white guy says
Christ is the only way to the Father but the catholic church is not the only way to Christ.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Peter P.
Pieter says
Who are you ?
Aaron says
Really Robert your Melkite bishop believes your wrong? You should consider becoming a Maronite. Of course, Bishops change and what is true today (good or bad) may not be true tomorrow, but I did switch from–for a whole variety of reasons–the Latin rite to the Maronite rite and left a very political bishop looking to become a Cardinal for a very pious bishop who is just a genuine Christian, and while I don’t know about our bishop I do know that the priest of my particular church supports you…. I had, I suppose, naively assumed that given the Melkites first hand knowledge of this issue that they wouldn’t be following the Romans into this absurdity. Then again I am currently reading a book on the progressive urgency in the messages of approved Marian apparitions for a coming Apostasy within the Catholic Church. Again I suppose I had naively assumed that this was largely going to happen within the Roman Church, but I can see many bishops like your will be happy to follow. It will be strange times up ahead and you can bet that Islam will be at the center of it.
Here’s what I’ve come to believe there are a lot of Free Masons in the Church, and Msgr. Swetland either is one or he is all to happy to take council those who are. I will be asking Drew Marani not to feature him as a guest anymore, and every time he is on the show I will be calling in and stating in no uncertain terms that he has no moral authority to speak. Because whether he is a Free Mason or not he has shown himself to be, objectively speaking, a Judas priest.
God Bless
Tom Davis says
2. My bishop does say I’m wrong
I’m sorry to hear that. I understand why you are being more circumspect with him vs. others.
Personally, I have only one small difference with you, a small part of your writing style, and since I am convinced you are doing God’s work I will not state it publicly. Just remember, Robert, you are not only a journalist or an historian, you are working to gain converts to the truth. That includes priests and bishops too.
JIMJFOX says
“2. My bishop does say I’m wrong. Yet still I am not wrong.”
So does your Pope. In neither case are YOU wrong- They are.
Now I wait for the howls of outrage from the religious here…
‘Moral relativism’ and such canards.
Christianity’s hard edges– Matthew 10-
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. shall be they of his own household.’>36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Danijed says
Dear Robert,
I thank God for you!!! You are right and an incredibly well informed right!!! You’ve done the research other so called leaders refuse to do!! On the long and growing list of upsetting events is the fact that those other schools/places canceled your speeches without any respect to you or your right to present facts and relevant information to audiences much in need of the truth. It is incredibly disturbing that this trend is growing still rather than waning- poss. exception U. of Chicago. As a Catholic Christian, it is so unsettling to me that these “Christian Leaders” are ignoring so much history as well as written info. contained in the Koran and the hadiths. They should be using their power to support and encourage the “moderates” to bring about the nec. change that would be required within Islam if it had any possibility of entering the 21st cent. and to choose to “live and let live” and reside amongst all other religions instead of having the continued overarching goal of wiping out all other religions. I see it now, after being educated by your factual writings that it is the “perfect religion” in design as it is designed to resist and negate all change and by keeping women uneducated and as 3rd or 4th class citizens who are brainwashed and married at 13, there will be no change. Those who wish for change risk death and those who wish to leave highly risk death. Looks pretty zero sum to me sadly. There is little hope and the Catholic leaders can lie to themselves and their sheeples from here to eternity but what they are preaching will not change Islam and many will die as a result of their willful ignorance!!
Champ says
Kurt W. wrote:
“You sound like my eight year old when she doesn’t get her way.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s clear where your eight year old learned that from …
Kepha says
Good one, Champ.
non-RC Uncle Kepha.
Angemon says
XD
vlparker says
How true.
le mouron rouge says
Champ,
Right on!
JohnH says
Ohhhhhh! That stung,……….
.
AcePL says
But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong.
============================================
Only in matters of the Magisterium. Even the Pope has no authority on matters outside the teaching of the Church. And even if the topic is Canon of CC, then if teachings are in clear opposition to what Our Lord Jesus taught us to be true, then he can go f*** himself. Being the Pope is not automatic infallibility in all matters. Just CC Dogmatic ones.
Lord gave us brains to use them and on that use we will be judged.
Wellington says
The enormous ignorance (and outright error, e.g., that Spencer was “whining about leaving the Church”) illustrated in your post, Kurt W., serves as ipso facto evidence of the Age of Nonsense in which we live. Perhaps you should consult your eight-year old for better guidance because you are woeful of better guidance to date.
And then there is the matter of pure FACT. Swetland has his facts wrong about Islam and Spencer does not. Or do you dispute this? If so, BE SPECIFIC. Bet you can’t.
Truly, I wonder if you realize how much you realize your post, actually a rant, says about you. I highly doubt you do. Shame on you for it. In microcosm, you are part of the reason why the spiritual fascism which is Islam, and which is foolishly exculpated to this day by useful idiots like Swetland, continues to get a pass. In short, you are an enabler of evil, not that you will get this since you get so little from the get-go. You ought to be ashamed of yourself———-but you won’t be, and herein lies the greater problem with ignoramuses like you, i.e., very little self-knowledge—or wisdom—or knowledge overall.
Norger says
Exactly right Wellington. Spencer talks facts and accurately quotes Islamic scripture, Swetland talks “papal” divine revelation mumbo jumbo. The Catholic Church is completely useless on the issue of Islam.
Mark Swan says
Good points Mario Almeda
The bible reveals that God has not left human beings to flounder without Fundamental guidelines, or without important answers to life’s big questions…God has inspired and preserved the Bible in a way that no other book has been preserved.
What We are seeing is a result of mankind ignoring the ways of the Creator God for millennia.
What is the answer? The solution will require a basic change in the nature of man. In the Bible, this change is referred to as “repentance.” While a few are responding to the call for repentance and change now, for most of mankind alive today it will come about only when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to set up His Kingdom on this earth.
Until then, there will be extremely difficult times, as the scourge of terrorism and so much more madness continues. Thank God He has a plan, and will end this just before, we end all life on this planet
gravenimage says
Kurt W. wrote:
But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong.
…………………………
Since when is one’s Bishop held to be infallible–and infallible on the subject of Islam, yet?
Besides–Bishops and other Catholic clerics disagree. Some have swallowed the Taqiyya about Islam being a “religion of peace”–some, thankfully, have *not*:
“Czech bishop decries ‘ruthless welcome policy’ and obfuscation about jihad terror, is censored by his own paper”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/czech-bishop-decries-ruthless-welcome-policy-and-obfuscation-about-jihad-terror-is-censored-by-his-own-paper
“Austrian cardinal says Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/austrian-cardinal-says-muslims-want-islamic-conquest-of-europe
Aaron says
During the Arian crisis how many local bishops disagreed with the faithful? The infallibility of bishops as a college or the same infallibility expressed in the bishop of Rome, alone, who can under limited conditions speak for the whole college by himself is more of a check on sensus fidelium than it is anything else.
In other words when the faithful come to believe something then the infallibility of the bishops as a group is more like a guarantee.
Dogma never comes by fiat (although heresy often has) from the bishops. This is not only true in principle, but has also always historically been the case.
Dogma comes because it is first proclaim by some saint or otherwise comes to be believed by the faithful and the bishops only role is to guarantee that, once it has come to be widely accepted, that it has, in fact, come from the Holy Spirit (a check on belief that only the Catholic and Orthodox churches have).
This authority is the very same authority in which the apostles spoke. So disagreeing with one’s bishop when they are Judas priest is no different than if any of first disciples disagreed with Judas Iscariot himself.
Ginger says
“It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4
vlparker says
I’ll never understand people like you who let others do their thinking for them. God gave you a brain. Use it. Don’t blindly follow what others say. Bishops, cardinals and the pope are all just human beings and they all make mistakes, sometimes downright stupid ones.
Aaron says
It is true that God gave us a rational ability. It is also true that Adam used the brain to reject God’s order. For a more current example of the abuse of our rational faculty look how Protestants use it to rationalize their desired beliefs and this is why there are over 32,000 confessions of faith among the Protestant communities–surely you can’t believe this is the case because it is so easy to know the truth unaided on one’s own do you?
If you reject the authority of the bishops (as a college) then where can you rest your hat in our revealed religion at all. The process the same infallible authority as the apostles–which might not be exactly what you assume it is… and by the way the Pope of which there are two patriarch who take the title in Catholicism, the bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of the Catholic Coptic Church are just bishops, and again cardinal is just an honorary term given for some bishops, just like Monsignor is an honor term give to some priests–in fact bishops are really only priests who have the fullness of the sacrament of priesthood, so the point I am making is that you don’t have to speak of “bishops, cardinal and the pope” since they are all just bishops.
The point by the way of any priest is not to tell the faithful what to think or even what to believe, but simply to provide the sacraments through which one is transformed by the Holy Spirit which brings one’s life in harmony with the truth. This is called sanctification. Priest exist to offer the means of sanctification and bishops are priests who have the fullness of the priesthood.
The point being is that a bishop may very well be on his way to hell even while he is offering you the means to attain heaven.
le mouron rouge says
Kurt w. says “But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong.”
Really? Grow up and get a life!
That kind of thinking is one reason I left the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC expects its followers to check their brains at the door.
Msgr. Swetland is entitled to his “opinion” and that all it is he is entitled to, his opinion.
Rich says
Kurt W says: “But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong.”
Did you learn to spell from your eight year old too? It’s “says you’re wrong…”.
And your comment to Robert is completely off base. Robert is exactly correct: just because his bishop says he is wrong does not mean he *is* wrong. Individual bishops are frequently [dead] wrong about a lot of things. Including magisterial teachings for that matter. I could continue explaining the differences between papal infallibility and the aegis (look it up, Kurt) of the local ordinary.
But “your” not worth it.
Go find the little kids’ playground, Kurt. JihadWatch is for the big boys and girls.
Michael Poulin says
“But, if your Bishop says your wrong, then you are wrong.”
Gets my vote for the most idiotic statement of the century.
Bishops can be plain wrong, in error, or ill-informed. Do you really think they are mouth-pieces for God Almighty? What moron believes that?
Michael F Poulin
Traditional Catholic
Michael Poulin says
And by the way, the teaching office of the Church (magisterium) is not a source of truth, it’s purpose is to serve the truth of the Gospel, and the Gospel only, as handed down from Jesus Christ, not to add in a mixture of private opinion. Anything opposed to the Gospel is not the truth. Islam opposes the Gospel. Ya know… that little thingy Jesus said to do: “teach all nations”
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
Having read the comments, it has been interesting to see Catholics standing up to a hostile group, who more often than not, display their contempt for Christianity, the Catholic Church in particular.
Just a thought: which most Catholics. appear to acknowledge that, the Jihadist organizations, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and their many affiliates who morph into different organizations: that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey funds and supports, notwithstanding Western governments, as major arms suppliers, are closer to the teaching of the Koran than those Muslims who have other opinions.
Msgr. Swetland has an opinion, that is no relevant in the broader issues that affect Europe, Africa, Middle East and dare I say USA.
The Pope, Bishops definitely are aware of what is happening in the world however theirs is a precarious situation which needs to be handled diplomatically in order to save innocent lives that are in real danger.
The secular world, has, political arm, a diplomatic, military, and a propaganda arm: M.S.M that gives false reports in hot spots from: false NGOs that have been created to push a certain narrative that gives governments the excuse to intervene in countries at will, to change governments at will. With no opposition at home as their populace has been primed by the M.S.M.
These false NGOs are people, funded by your tax, who assist with medical, health, food. and other humanitarian aid. With someone in France, London, Brussels and the USA, armed with a lap Top feeding the news through the M.S.M to their populations, information that they want you to hear.
Who is the enemy here, it certainly is not the pope, the Catholic Church yet there is more venom on this thread, not so much against Msgr. Swetland but the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church is on the ground in every conflict area in the world, giving aid where she can, Pope Francis, bishops, know whats going on and it is not the same narrative that the secular gives you.
There is need to wake up and step out the shadows into light.
Kelly says
I appreciate your perspective Malcolm and I am interested in hearing more about what you see in your country.
We are all limited in what we are aware of and it helps us all to also rely on one another.
In my opinion, the anti-Christian and anti-Catholic rhetoric is often used by cultural jihadists. I fully support freedom of speech. Sometimes I wish it were accompanied by clearer thinking.
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
Follow this link and google for others. Listen to what she has to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSCCBnnHgfs
Thanks Kelly.
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
These links a different narrative.
This is what our priest do. This is the true face of our Church and our Christianity. We are not scared, we do what is right and just.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/eyewitness-to-the-syrian-rebellion-late-father-frans-denounced-a-violent-opposition-instigated-and-paid-by-foreign-interests/5378784
Douglas Brown says
Something much larger is going on than an insignificant College President with no understanding of Islam.
It is the Pope, representative of a Church whose leadership is both failing Christ, and failing his flock. This absurd little College President with his Islamic deceptions is only a part of a far more cancerous growth. The Catholic Church is deep into heresy. This Islamic problem is only one of it’s many sicknesses.
Christianblood says
Douglas Brown posted:
(..Something much larger is going on than an insignificant College President with no understanding of Islam. It is the Pope, representative of a Church whose leadership is both failing Christ, and failing his flock. This absurd little College President with his Islamic deceptions is only a part of a far more cancerous growth. The Catholic Church is deep into heresy. This Islamic problem is only one of it’s many sicknesses..)
Very well-said, Douglas Brown! Your wise words prove that you are aware of some deeper issues concerning these matters and I share your awareness and concerns! God bless you! Keep it up!
JayT says
And you sound like my 5 year old who at times will make up things. I watched the video of that debate and read the following posts by Spencer. SHOW US where he was whining about leaving the church Kurt W. As we like to say in America, “Put up, or shut up”.
To Spencer, don’t bother wasting any more time on Swetland and his cronies. I do think you should have challenged him at some point in the debate with, “Have you read the Quran, Swetland?” And then asked him to recite or refer to some very basic verses in the Quran to prove it.
I think it would have been enlightening since he kept pounding the point about those Muslims that he had met were the source of his certainty, along with what his superiors have told him to believe. I’m sure it could be said somewhere there was a “nice” German citizen we met during Nazi Germany, so do we then use the transitive property to say all Germans were “nice” during WW2?
The sad state of affairs for the current Catholic Church, not like when the Pope called to the West for the Crusades, is in contrast to the Jihadist who revels in dying in battle, while taking down as many of the kuffar as he can, the ones leading the Catholic Church today believe it is somehow noble to lay down peacefully, and extend one’s neck for the Islamic sword. And here we thought suicide was against Catholic beliefs.
Jon Sobieski says
Jesus talked about the false ones who would dress in the cloth but spew lies. Easy to spot them.
Barry Donnelly says
Hey ! You got my name on that College and now I’m really Offended and Pissed off ! I think I’m gonna sue if you don’t remove it . This is why I became a Protestant ! Unfortunately many So called Protestant Leaders today are no better than this Romanist when it comes to confronting Islam ! So will the Pope eventually enforce Vatican 2 rulings to the point where people will be excommunicated for Criticizing Islam ?
linnte says
It really looks like that is where this is going, doesn’t it?
Peter Ahlskog says
Obama was conceived in a Muslim country (Kenya), his father was a Muslim, They went back to school in Hawaii before Obama’s birth, because USA has better hospitals than Kenya. Then his mother divorced, married another Muslim, this time from Indonesia. She and Barack moved with the mother’s new husband to Indonesia. Barack got a half-sister, who is Muslim. Barack was educated in Indonesia, in a Muslim school despite good Christian school in Jakarta.Ann Dunham, Barack Obama’s mother, was one of those dissatisfied free spirits who looked for love amongst Muslim men, who she viewed as exotic. Later in in her life, Ann stated she was an atheist. But Barack was without question born in the United States. Period.
Carolyne says
I believe Barack Hussein Obama was born in Kenya as his grandmother, who claimed to have witnessed his birth, said. However, since his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham was an American citizen, so was he. However, since he was adopted by his Indonesian step-father and took his name, there is some question as to whether or not he retained his American citizenship. Publicity for his first book claimed that he was born in Kenya but the whole question is muddy. However, I am glad that he will be out of our hair come next January.
I believe he is a usurper.
gravenimage says
I’ve never been so happy about term limits as now.
Of course, Hillary would be about as bad…
le mouron rouge says
Gravenimage,
Be careful, it ain’t over till it’s over!
Always expect the unexpected.
The possibility exists that Hillary might be replaced with………………..
Michelle O.
The we will have 16 years of the O.
gravenimage says
le mouron rouge, Michelle Obama is not running for president–not in this election cycle, anyway.
linnte says
Graven, I have absolutely NO emails from JW on my device!! Have I been removed? How would I know and why?
le mouron rouge says
gravenimage,
I’m thinking out loud, sort of a trial balloon.
What would happen “if” Billary has another seizure that is captured on camera, will the DNC stay with her or replace her?
How many “minor” illnesses can the Billary Campaign conjure up and the DNC tolerate/defend?
How many “insignificant” illnesses are the Billary supporters willing to tolerate?
How “gullible” are the American people?
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”
– Abraham Lincoln
If the DNC decides to replace her, who would they choose as a “viable” candidate as it appears that Trump is gaining more and momentum?
What would prevent the DNC from replacing Billary with Michelle O?
From what I have heard there is nothing in the Constitution that addresses this issue. So, the logical question would be, is there anything in the DNC charter that would prevent them from putting Michelle O in place of Billary.
Again, just thinking out loud.
JayT says
Carolyne, you are both right and wrong on the Obama issue. First, the newspapers are in the Hawaiian library that in the birth announcement section show Barack Obama’s birth. He would have to be a time traveler able to go back to the 1960s and alter the newspapers for it to be bogus. Bill O’Reilly, on his The Factor show, also obtained one of the newspapers and showed his audience the section.
As an Usurper, that’s where I agree with you. Obama has birthright citizenship but his heart belongs to a different culture and religion and doctrine.
August West says
With all due respect – you are arguing with a fairly low level functionary working in a large global bureaucracy. This is not all that different from having an issue a matter of IRS policy and arguing with the people on the IRS hotline about the correctness of the policy.
According to Msgr Swetland Catholics, like me, that challenge the notion that Islam = Peace are not obeying Catholic teachings. You have exposed this fact.
You have also exposed exactly how absurd the notion that Islam = Peace really is.
Swetland’s best argument was that Islam = Peace because Catholic brass says so and nobody can challenge that.
“Robert Spencer’s positions seem to be at odds with the magisterial teachings on what authentic Islam is and what Catholic are called to do about it (accept immigrants, avoid hateful generalizations, show esteem and respect, etc.) At least in the area of morals, Robert seems to be a dissenter from the papal magisterium” we are left to guess how Swetland defines “authentic” Islam.
Anybody who seriously uses terminology like “magisterial teachings” and “papal magisterium” is clearly out of ammunition in an honest intellectual debate.
“he stated his opinion that those who believe that Islam is not a religion of peace had placed themselves in a state of disobedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church”
To which I respond – who exactly cares? I can’t imagine anybody would. I am catholic and I have never met one yet that was not in a “state of disobedience to the teachings…”
You have done your part by exposing the absurdity of canonical catholic dogma on the topic of Islam.
Swetland’s invocation of “papal magisterium” punctuates this absurdity.
Well done.
Westman says
“who exactly cares?” Exactly! Well said, August.
le mouron rouge says
I agree with much of what has been posted here, however, as a former Roman Catholic, now non-denomination, I could not stay in an Institution that clearly violates Biblical principles.
I take issue with the false teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that the Pope and the so-called “magisterium” is infallible in matters of faith and morals.
I like to think of the movie “The Wizard of Oz” when Dorothy and her companions pulled back the curtain only to discover a frail, confused, human being who was in a more desperate state than they.
The Quest is not always the Quest, it’s the journey that matters. “In the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years.”
– Abraham Lincoln
Which Pope was infallible, the one who allowed Joan of Arc to be condemned as a heretic and burned at the stake or the Pope who had her canonized as a Saint?
As to the Roman Catholic Church’s (RCC) false teaching on Mary, that she is a perpetual virgin, well that is just another example of how fallible the Papacy really is.
The Bible, in the book of Isaiah states, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14 (ESV)
There is nothing in the Bible to substantiate that Mary was a “perpetual virgin”, however, there are verses that clearly show that Yeshua HaMashiach had half brothers and sisters, i.e. “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.” Mark 6:3 (KJV)
And how does the RCC get around the Messianic Prophecy “For it is for your sake that I have borne reproach, that dishonor has covered my face. 8. I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons.”
Psalm 69:7-8
Alexander Hislop in his book, The Two Babylons, has done an excellent job of tracing the pagan origin of the “Mother/Child” mythology and thus discrediting the teaching of the RCC on Mary.
The RCC has elevated Mary to “The Queen of Heaven.” The only place in the Bible where one can find “The Queen of Heaven,” is a pagan goddess found in the book of Jeremiah, Chapter/Verse 7:18, 44:17-19, 25.
In addition, James G. McCarthy in his book, “The Gospel According to Rome,” has done an outstanding job of disputing the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church along with Mike Gendron and his book, “Preparing for Eternity,” both compare the teaching of the RCC to that of the Bible, which is and should be the final authority on matters of Faith and Morals.
This, along with Giuseppe Garibaldi and his book, The Rule of the Monk, which can be found online. He has done a masterful job of documenting the rampant immorality that permeated the Vatican and the Roman Catholic clergy in his day and continues as of this writing.
And, Charles Chiniquy in his book, “50 Years in the Church of Rome: The Conversion of a Roman Catholic Priest,” clearly demonstrates the false teaching of the RCC and the fallacy of Papal infallibility.
And finally, the book, “Windswept House: A Vatican Novel by the late Malichi Martin, a former Jesuit who died under mysterious circumstances. Malichi Martin was dedicated to the Roman Catholic Church and was very concerned by the immorality within the RCC. It’s possible that his book, Windswept House, led to his demise as the saying goes, “Truth is stranger than fiction.”
Pong says
I thought it is common knowledge by now, that translate “almah” as “virgin” is incorrect.
The prophecy in christian interpretation is so far thatched, it makes a serious blow to the whole concept of christian theology.
le mouron rouge says
Pong,
Thank you for the comment.
You say, “The prophecy in christian interpretation is so far thatched, it makes a serious blow to the whole concept of christian theology”
That’s ok. The World is full of choices. We gather information and make the best choice we can based on that information.
Frankly, as a Christian, I have absolutely nothing to lose by my study of the Bible and Bible Prophecy.
It hasn’t failed yet. How does one explain the existence of the Nation of Israel? A people who were scattered all over the World from about 135 AD and now a Nation as of May 14, 1948.
That tiny country with approximately 8000 Sq. Mi. and approx. 6.2 million Jewish people surrounded by 13 nations with a land mass of approximately 2.6 million Sq. MI and a population of approximately 390 million people?
The Nation of Israel will be here long after all the Nations of the World have vanished.
Pong says
Le mouron rouge,
I do understand that our vision is limited and some events are very difficult to explain from any position, especially with the time span of many centuries. In those situations I think every person should be free to view those events from his own position, according his background, education, believes and likes.
Woody says
Since you do not believe Mary is Queen of Heaven you should read Chapter 12 of Revelation. We discover Mary has a crown of twelve stars indicating queen ship. This is merely one of multiple valid interpretations of Revelation 12. I happen to be familiar with former Catholic hack Mike Gendron whose whole ministry is based on anti Catholicism. I know he considers the Early Church Fathers to be a reliable source as long as his views are the same as theirs. I challenged him to share with his congregation what all the Early Church Fathers said about the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Of course he would not. A simple Google search will show ALL the Early Church Fathers disagree with you and Gendron.
le mouron rouge says
Woody,
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
First, I will not defend Mike Gendron as he is fully capable of defending his position on the RCC,
Second, there is no support in the Bible for the RCC teaching on Mary, she is a “created” being and as such should not be worshipped.
The 1st commandment – “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
And Paul in 1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and there is “ONE” mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus,” 6. who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (Emphasis added)
Third, John Ankerberg, Jimmy DeYoung, Gary Frazier, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Mark Hitchcock, Dave Hunt (Deceased), Brannon Howse, Tommy Ice, Jack KELLY, John MacArthur, Chuck Missler, David Reagan, Ron Rhodes, Bill Salus, Gary Stearman, John F. Walvoord (Deceased), and John Whitcomb are very credible Bible teachers and they would disagree with Mary being the woman in Revelation 12.
Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
May I add another book? The late Dave Hunt’s “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.”
– Albert Einstein
Les says
Dear le moron
Save yourself some time and save what little self respect you have left by claiming you were a Catholic. You demonstrated that you never were a Catholic. If you were a Catholic you would not be calling Jesus a liar and denying that He declared the rock of Peter and declared that He is physically with you in the Euchrist. If you now deny those realities then please understand the seriousness of that declaration.
Champ says
Dear Les, it’s clear that Le mouron rouge is NOT a “moron”, but that she has given her decision to leave the RCC a great deal of study and thought.
Besides, Jesus didn’t say that you must declare …”the rock of Peter” …and that “He is physically with you in the Euchrist” in order to be saved. Jesus said that you must be born again …
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” — John 3:3
Question: “What does it mean to be a born again Christian?”
Answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/born-again.html
Les says
Champ
You are taking from the Catholic Bible and trying to tell the Catholics what their Bible says? That’s laughable. You can try to misinterpret the Catholic Bible, rewrite it or even take books out of the Catholic Bible like the 16th century protesters did but it doesn’t change the truth that endures today in the Catholic Church that Jesus built and for which He said the gates of hell or loud protestors who distort the His truth to justify whatever you are protesting won’t prevail.
Bible alone has given christianity over 33,000 didn’t flavors and has diluted and even polluted the Christian faith. The MuSlimes stole from the Bible and look how far into hell they fell. Jesus wants unity and you can’t have untity without consistent truth and one Church.
Champ says
“Jesus wants unity” …
Indeed, Les. Perhaps practice what you preach.
le mouron rouge says
Les,
Les,
Thank you for the comment.
You may be correct, maybe, after attending Mass on a “daily” basis and Communion for more years than I can remember along with a “daily” rosary and wearing the Scapula and being educated/indoctrinated in the Roman Catholic School system from K-12, I was a false Roman Catholic.
“And he (Yeshua) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
– Matthew 22:37
Please note: “all your mind”, Yeshua gave us a brain and He expects us to use it wisely.
“The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.”
– Acts 17:10-11
Please note: “they received the word with all eagerness, “examining” the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.”
The Bereans did not take Paul’s word at face value, they used the brain that Yeshua gave them and diligently searched the Scriptures to validate what he, Paul, had taught them.
I have no regrets about leaving the RCC as my Salvation is quite simply in Yeshua HaMashiach alone. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, “Grace alone, through Faith alone, through Yeshua HaMashiach alone.
“This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 11. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:11-12 (ESV)
“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel.”
– Exodus 17:6 (ESV)
“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
– Deuteronomy 32:4 (ESV)
“There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
– 1 Samuel 2:2 (ESV)
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
– Psalm 18:2 (ESV)
The first mention of the word “Rock” in the Bible is in Exodus 17:6, which is a representation of Our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach, the living water.
There are far too many passages to list here where the word “Rock” is a picture of Our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach., I have listed only a few.
The point is, Peter is not the “Rock” that Yeshua HaMashiach was referring to, why would the “Rock” change from representing Yeshua to a mere mortal, a created being as “the Rock that Yeshua would build His church?
In closing I’m a little perplexed as to where I called Yeshua HaMashiach a liar and made any mention of Peter or the Rock, please be accurate with your statements.
May Yeshua HaMashiach keep you and yours in the palm of His Hand.
Les says
Le mouron
“In closing I’m a little perplexed as to where I called Yeshua HaMashiach a liar and made any mention of Peter or the Rock, please be accurate with your statements.”
You deny the Euchrist as truly the body and blood of Jesus and that the Church which Jesus founded on the Rock who was St Peter and continues in succession for two thousand years is now Pope Francis. You deny these truths and therefore you are calling Jesus a liar who did absolutely declare these truths. You can take Jesus’s words from the Catholic Bible and try to change these truths but that too is a lie. I don’t know anything about you and I’ll assume if we met it would be delightful but Please stop telling Catholics that there is no real presence of Jesus and that the Pope is not the successor of Peter because in effect you are calling us liars.
You may have the menu but we Catholics have the meal. The Catholic Church the only Church that Jesus founded. You can’t change that fact as many have tried and will fail.
I’ll pray for you and you please pray for me and let’s hope the Holy Spirit helps both of us.
le mouron rouge says
Champ,
Thank you.
Woody says
If you were a true Catholic at one time you would well understand that Catholics do NOT worship Mary, the most special fully human being God ever created. You would know that worshiping Mary would be a serious offense against God and would damn that person to hell if they did not repent and ask for forgiveness.
le mouron rouge says
Woody says,
“If you were a true Catholic at one time you would well understand that Catholics do NOT worship Mary, the most special fully human being God ever created. You would know that worshiping Mary would be a serious offense against God and would damn that person to hell if they did not repent and ask for forgiveness.”
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Worship
1. chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2. reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3. a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4. extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar
After the failed assignation of Pope John Paul on May 13, 1981, who did this Pope thank for saving his Life?
It wasn't his Lord and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach, it was Mary.
Who did Pope John Paul II write a special prayer to and keep pinned inside his clothing, again, it wasn't his Lord and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach, it was Mary.
And to whom are millions of people annually making a pilgrimages to pray to and venerate, again, it isn't their Lord and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach, its Mary.
I find it necessary to post this again.
5 For there is one God, and there is “ONE” mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus,” 6. who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (Emphasis added)
– 1 Timothy 2:5-6
Woody says
You claim to be a former Catholic and yet you fail to understand Catholic speech. When Pope John Paul II said in Catholic speech was God saved his life through the intercession of Mary. The Bible translation does say there is ONE mediator, but a more accurate translation would be FIRST mediator. If you believe that Jesus Is truly the only mediator between God and men they you are a total fool to pray for anyone because praying for someone is mediating for them.
Les says
Bravo Woody. I love to read your posts and it reflects beautifully on God’s Church. You did a great job defending God’s Church and let’s pray the Holy Spirit can get it thru some stubborn minds.
Les says
Le mouron
Are you now a messianic Jew?
Do you deny the trinity as declared the Catholic Church?
Do you believe in modalism?
Emilie Green says
Throw the bomb. Run away. Fail to step up to your actions.
Fits right in with the leftist model.
And, on Sunday mornings, when priests look out from the altar and see lots and lots of empty pews, does it ever occur to them that the cause might be this awful leadership (cough) and lack of knowledge.
Mark Swan says
Emilie Green, good point.
Ginger says
I’m afraid that, like the European Union, they think the answer to the crisis is more of the same.
Mark Swan says
When the aging Apostle John wrote his short third epistle, He mentions the truth several times,
and mentions two men, Diotrephes and Demetrius in 3 John 9-12, two very different men.
(9) I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.
(10) Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.
(11) Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.
(12) Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.
A true Man of God and close friend of Christ, is very aware of this type of man who will not have the truth.
Mr. Spencer You are in the best of company, if you have the truth.
DJ says
Never mind,the Archbishop of Vienna has come over from the dark side.Proximity brings reality.
gravenimage says
Yes, DJ–Jihad Watch covers that story here:
“Austrian cardinal says Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/austrian-cardinal-says-muslims-want-islamic-conquest-of-europe
Kelly says
Preposterous is the right word for the way Robert has been treated.
Pope Francis has now said that to kill in the name of God is satanic and has declared Father Hamel a martyr, which automatically means sainthood.
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3
The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.
The concept of the Muslim god and the Christian God are two different concepts. Muslims do not venerate Jesus although they say they do. They deny the incarnation they deny the Resurrection. That is insulting
After coming 600 centuries after the fact they which to dictate who Jesus is, disregarding the credible eyewitness reports from disciples willing to lay down their lives for the truth.
No Catholic council mentions the Koran or Mohammad. It always mentions Muslims, as the Fathers know that there are good Muslims who try their best under difficult circumstances.
Islam as practiced: in hate, violence, is not peaceful, Fr Hamel recognized his attackers immediately and said twice get away from me satan.
See you at mass Robert
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
After coming 600 years after the fact
Keys says
These churchmen have been influenced by and have used “ad hominem” attacks against Robert Spencer instead of proving their case that Islam is a to-be-respected religion of peace, and that every Catholic should believe that, despite Islam’s basic texts, history, and proclamations of past and current Islamic authorities to the contrary.
Crusades Were Right! says
Speaking as a Catholic (or should that be, in the light of Mgnr. Swetland’s view of Mr. Spencer, an ex-Catholic), it seems to me that the most important thing that Christianity and Islam have in common is that both religions refer to the same supernatural entitiy –
It’s just that the Mohammedans call him “Allah”, whereas we Christians call him…
…”the Devil”.
Crusades Were Right! says
Correction: Msgr., not Mgnr.
Sue me! (Or should that be: “Excommunicate me!”?)
; ¬)
Woody says
You are correct that Islam is a Satanic deception. However I believe Mr. Stewart is a Catholic of the Armenian rather than Latin Rite. Armenian Catholics are in union with the Pope.
Westman says
“.. Robert seems to be a dissenter from the papal magisterium.” Vive la différence!
This Pope, even as an honorable person, is running on the fumes of “mystery”, utterly devoid of reality. It’s no wonder that Americans and the Irish are bailing out.
Msgr. Swetland thinks he is defaming Mr. Spencer when, in fact, he’s only displaying an incredible ignorance of Islam that must bring Jesus to tears as he watches his followers being slaughtered by Islamists. Let’s hope Jesus is preparing the same “whips” used on the money changers to clean house.
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven..”. The leadership of the Catholic church leadership is looking through a glass darkly; and assuming the wrong season.
August West says
“papal magisterium” = Papal Delirium
Norger says
“Papal magisterium”=total bullshit
DHazard says
It’s so hypocritical to quickly and strongly judge someone who just speaks about Islam in anything other than positive ways, but then completely suspend judgement about the ways Muslims themselves interpret and act on their own ideology. There is absolutely zero difference between what Robert does and what anyone who criticizes any other ideology does. Maybe this is the pattern of thinking that led to the prolonged and widespread cover up of child sexual abuse in the Catholic church; don’t speak ill of anyone when religion is involved, no matter how obvious or horrible their actions are. Catholic officials seem to have no problem at all condemning the secular world but are irresponsibly holier-than-thou when it comes to members of any religion (at least the mainstream ones).
But maybe it’s more of a pragmatic reaction. Catholicism is sort of a business and, like any other business, has employees (priests, monsignors, cardinals, etc.) who seek advancement. Maybe this guy wants to move up the ladder and feels that publicly agreeing with the CEO (the Pope) will improve his standing. It’s also a generally bad idea for someone to disagree with the position of the person who runs the company they work for.
Champ says
That’s all right. I don’t have any interest in going where I’m not wanted, and if I’m not welcome in the Catholic Church because of what I say about Islam, so be it, because what I say about Islam is true and accurate. — Robert Spencer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hear, hear!!
Whereas Msgr. Stuart Swetland, and his ilk, are leading ignorant sheep to the slaughter, known as islam.
linnte says
Oh and HE IS ISN’T HE!!! Horrendous!
CogitoErgoSum says
This priest is confusing Muslims with Islam. A Muslim is a human being who should be treated with the same respect that is due all human beings. Islam is an ideology which deserves no such similar respect and should be open to criticism and subject to rejection.
Priests are supposed to be have been charged by Christ with the mission of spreading the teachings of Christ ……. not the teachings of Muhammad. Those who have studied the teachings of both Christ and Muhammad know that the two ideologies are quite contradictory and incompatible. A person must discard certain concepts of one in order to accept the other.
So Monsignor, since Muslims are not about to discard the concepts taught to them through the unchangeable Quran, which concepts will Catholics need to change in order to accept Muhammad and Islam as having been sent by God? I would think that the first to go would be your entire concept of Christ and your mission to spread the word of Christ to the world. Is there a publication from the Catholic Church which sets forth the others?
Kay says
Well stated.
Guest says
Traitors to Christ!
rosine ghawji says
Robert Spencer is a catholic so am I, the catholic church leadership is wrong totally wrong . going astray . For years ,Robert Spencer has been a voice against the danger of Islam and has been proven right.
Malcolm (SouthAfria) says
Msgr. Swetland is not exactly in Church leadership per say, perhaps in his parish. However there would be many priest, bishops, cardinals,and laity that echo what Mr Robert Spencer writes.
Sam says
Thanks Robert for all you do!
I admire your strength in dealing with all theses idiot liberals, lying Muslims, media and brainwashed academia. Just stay healthy, we really need you.
Christianblood says
Sam posted
(..Thanks Robert for all you do! I admire your strength in dealing with all theses idiot liberals, lying Muslims, media and brainwashed academia. Just stay healthy, we really need you..)
Very well said, Sam!
And I would respectfully suggest to Dr. Robert Spencer that if he is not welcome in the Catholic Church because of his truthful scholarly views on islam then please consider joining the Holy Orthodox Church. May God bless and protect Dr. Robert Spencer! Keep up the good work! The TRUTH is on your side Robert!
gravenimage says
Alas, Christianblood, you sometimes find this kind of dhimmitude in the Orthodox Church, as well–Catholics certainly do not have a lock on this idiocy.
“West should learn from Russia to accept Muslim refugees – Patriarch Kirill”
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12354
“Unlike the West, which is already nervous about the arrival of refugees, Moscow alone has taken in more Muslims than the whole of Europe has done by now. And nobody in the world is aware of it. And there is no hysteria, no police, no gas, no physical clashes,” the patriarch said at a meeting with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas at his residence in Peredelkino, Moscow Region, on Thursday.
…
Of course, this completely ignores Jihad terror in Russia–including in Moscow. He also lauded the construction of a huge Mosque in the heart of Moscow.
And you find dhimmitude in various Protestant denominations, as well–it cuts across doctrinal lines.
Of course, you also find brave Anti-Jihadists in most denominations, as well, who stand up despite the pressure of “political correctness”.
Christianblood says
gravenimage
One big difference is that, unlike Catholics and Protestants, Orthodox Churches in most of the Eastern European countries know islam and muslims very well and up close because they lived under islam for over four hundred years ruled by the Ottoman muslim Turks and those national churches and their diaspora communities in the West are mostly free from the political-correct, pro-islamic sensibilities that dominates other churches in the West today.
You are right, Russia have many millions of indigenous native muslims concentrated mostly in the remote North Caucasus regions and they are not presently a threat to Russia. There is a low level localized jihadist movements in some of those remote regions but they are under control and Russian authorities deal with them very severely and with overwhelming power and they will never be a threat to Russia. Russia also helped and assisted many of these brotherly Orthodox Christian in the Eastern European countries in their centuries-old struggles during they were occupied by the Ottoman (Turkish) muslims and many of them regained their independence because of Russia’s support. You are right, there are people and churches in the West, mostly Evangelical Christians, some Catholics and others who are trying to resist the tide of pro-islamic, political-correctness but their number is very small compared to the other side.
gravenimage says
Christianblood wrote:
gravenimage
One big difference is that, unlike Catholics and Protestants, Orthodox Churches in most of the Eastern European countries know islam and muslims very well and up close because they lived under islam for over four hundred years ruled by the Ottoman muslim Turks and those national churches and their diaspora communities in the West are mostly free from the political-correct, pro-islamic sensibilities that dominates other churches in the West today.
………………………………
Certainly, there is some truth to this–Eastern Europe in general–including churches there–tend to be more savvy about the Jihad threat than in the West.
A hard lesson that much of the West either has not known or after several centuries of relative safety from Islam has now forgotten.
But the Eastern churches are not entirely free from either “political correctness” of from dhimmitude, especially in Muslim lands. This last is understandable under the circumstances, but still a serious problem.
“Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch: ‘No one defends Islam like Arab Christians’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/melkite-greek-catholic-patriarch-no-one-defends-islam-like-arab-christians
Luckily, there are Eastern Orthodox prelates like the head of the Orthodox Church in Greece, Archbishop Christodoulos, who is warning about the threat of Islam and who supported Pope Benedict in his comments about the violence of Islam in his Regensburg Address.
More:
You are right, Russia have many millions of indigenous native muslims concentrated mostly in the remote North Caucasus regions and they are not presently a threat to Russia. There is a low level localized jihadist movements in some of those remote regions but they are under control and Russian authorities deal with them very severely and with overwhelming power and they will never be a threat to Russia.
………………………………
I think you are much too sanguine about this. The fact is that Russia has suffered many Jihad terror attacks, including the horror of Beslan and attacks on the capitol itself in the Moscow theater, metro, and airport. And now, with more Muslims flooding into Moscow–with the witless Patriarch Kirill’s clueless approval–we are also starting to see “lone wolf” Jihad attacks like those on traffic police and the Muslim woman who beheaded a little four-year-old child under her care.
I wish this were not happening in Russia–but it is.
More:
Russia also helped and assisted many of these brotherly Orthodox Christian in the Eastern European countries in their centuries-old struggles during they were occupied by the Ottoman (Turkish) muslims and many of them regained their independence because of Russia’s support.
………………………………
This is true, and kudos to them.
Russia also helped some of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide–albeit not without a price. The Armenians are the only people in history to actually voluntarily put themselves under the Soviet heel. Even this kind of oppression must have looked pretty good compared to out and out genocide in Turkey.
More:
You are right, there are people and churches in the West, mostly Evangelical Christians, some Catholics and others who are trying to resist the tide of pro-islamic, political-correctness but their number is very small compared to the other side.
………………………………
It’s a mixed bag here–as in Russia. There are still people like Robert Spencer fighting the good fight.
There are also figures like Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, who knows about the threat of Islam all too well, having grown up in Islamic hell hole Pakistan. He is influential in both Britain and the US, where he is a visiting Bishop.
But yes–there are too few like him.
Christianblood says
gravenimage posted
(..I think you are much too sanguine about this. The fact is that Russia has suffered many Jihad terror attacks, including the horror of Beslan and attacks on the capitol itself in the Moscow theater, metro, and airport. And now, with more Muslims flooding into Moscow–with the witless Patriarch Kirill’s clueless approval–we are also starting to see “lone wolf” Jihad attacks like those on traffic police and the Muslim woman who beheaded a little four-year-old child under her care..)
Thank you for concerns for Russia, Graven! You are right, Russia suffered a myriad of isamic jihad attacks, especially in Yeltsin years
and in the early years of Putin. Remember, then Russia was on its knees in those days as it just came out of seventy years of communism and was wrestling with a myriad of political and social issues chief of which was experimenting with Western-style liberal democratic values and capitalist model etc which really confused the Russian soul and hugely emboldened islamic terrorists to take advantage of this chaos and start their bloody jihad. Today, Russia has found its pace again and its all a different ball game as Russia has found its collective national/spiritual and cultural soul again under the wise leadership of visionary president Putin and the terrorists know this. They know that they will be annihilated without mercy if they raise their ugly head again because the Russian soul is awake, and that Russia is not Belguim or France etc. Graven, the mortal danger for Russia is not really its muslim minorities and their jihadist tendencies but if it loses its proud and unique nationalistic and historical Christian Orthodox identity and the only thing that will destroy this identity is the radical anti-Christian so-called Western, politically-correct liberal democratic system. That will really weaken and destroy Russia’s soul and will inevitably embolden muslims to wage a huge bloody jihad against Russian Christians. Pray that this will not happen! God bless you and have a nice day!
RGH says
We could begin to accept Islam as a religion the day after the first Christian church is dedicated in mecca
Susanna says
Dear Mr. Spencer,
I have really appreciated your material over the last year and find it very enlightening. I guess the problem lies in is the pope infallible in this matter? I have a priest I like named Fr. Rippenger who is someone I also love to listen to and feel that he has a tremendous amount of knowledge with regard to the Church. I am sharing the link to some of his talks, one in which he talks about the issue of infallibility. It is under Ecclesiology.
Either way we are all called as Catholics to show mercy and love and to evangelize even in the face of death. Because it is through the blood of the martyrs that the faith is proliferated.
Thanks for your dedication to the truth, now on to the issue of obedience…
https://sentrad.org/multimedia/
God Bless!
Carolyne says
I am most grateful that Henry VIII had the hots for Anne Boleyn and that Martin Luther owned a hammer nd a nail.
gravenimage says
Alas, Carolyn, Protestants have been as clueless at times as have Catholics re the threat of Islam:
“Former Archbishop of Canterbury: ‘Islam is reviving British values’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/former-archbishop-of-canterbury-islam-is-reviving-british-values
“New Mexico: ‘Understanding Islam’ event at Lutheran church spreads falsehoods about Islam”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/new-mexico-understanding-islam-event-at-lutheran-church-spreads-falsehoods-about-islam
Carolyne says
Yes, Gravenimage, you are right. Further, ex-Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams said, “Sharia law is inevitable in England.”
gravenimage says
Sadly, yes.
Luckily, there are some warning about the threat of Islam, like Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir Ali and those brave Evangelicals helping Muslims leave Islam, like Pastor Saeed Abedini in Iran.
Kepha says
As an Evangelical Christian myself, I cannot accept that a book which denies Jesus’ death on the cross and his being God Incarnate can be of of the Spirit of God and will go to the Judgment Seat of God seeing the Qur’an as at best the Word of Man and at worst a lie from the pits of Hell. Loyalty to Christ and the Bible precludes praise for Muhammad and the Qur’an.
Of course, as many here know, I have never been a fan of civilizational war or a new armed crusade (especially when some of our churches have had to make room for ex-Muslims, and we see churches cropping up in Kabylia and Anatolia). However, we admit we are in a spiritual war, in which the victory we want is for Muslims (and everyone else) to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and God Incarnate to the praise of God’s glorious grace. That we understand our Holy Bible to teach that the weapons of our warfare are truth, righteousness, the Word of God, peace, faith, salvation, prayer, and preaching rather than those forged of steel, we recognize that we are in a conflict for human souls nonetheless. Yes, I believe there is a Hell and multitudes are heading there–but the spiritual warfare which God’s revelation enjoins on me does not command me to hasten anyone on his way thither.
While I look at the Roman Church from outside, I have a question or two about what the Vatican meant in its statements about Islam in the Documents of Vatican II. Was it merely to express charity towards one’s unbelieving neighbor, while stopping short of affirming his false religion? If so, deal me in. Jesus Christ himself, after all, was charitable to the Samaritan woman at the well at Sychar even as he told her her religion was ignorant and “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4). Or, was it a sign that the Vatican has surrendered to the cultural relativism of the modern age, and wishes to say of Islam that it, too, can make men sons of God by a gracious adoption (only Jesus the Messiah is God’s son by nature)? If so, deal me out.
Yes, I am glad that Roman Catholics and Protestants are no longer slaughtering each other as sword point, driving each other naked into bogs in winter, or throwing infants to swine. I am all for civil peace, even with someone who says I am going to Hell because I am not in personal submission to an Italian prince who styles himself Universal Pastor. Indeed, if all there was to Muslim criticism of me is that my refusal to see Muhammad as a prophet condemns me to Jahanum, I could live with that, too. Where I grieve is that it is all too clear that a very large and important segment of Islam sees violence against the rest of us for the sake of the spread of Islam as ipso facto justified–and this group seems, from my outsider’s perspective, to have won hands down Islam’s “battle of the texts” (if there ever truly was one).
Does a man like Mgr. Swetland believe that there is such a thing as Truth (such as once stood, in the flesh, directly under Pontius Pilate’s gaze)? That is an issue about modern liberalism, even in churches.
deja vu says
Very well put Kepha. I agree entirely. The forecast ‘one world religion’ (Chrislam) has its proponents from both sides of the equation. In an age of moral relativism, the need for the discernment of false shepherds has never been greater. We can’t say we haven’t been warned, but the warnings can’t be taken seriously if we’re persuaded that the opinions of fallen mankind count as much, or more, than the plain meaning of the Biblical text, which can be understood by everyone.
Woody says
I like your name Kepha ( Peter ). I congratulate you on being an honest truth seeker. You are correct in assuming the Vatican II documents were written in the spirit of charity. The Catholic Church teaches as a Protestant you certainly can enter heaven, but it would be easier for you if you were to become Catholic. I would suggest you read Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. I think you will find this book intriguing. As far as Monsignor Swetland I believe he is interested in truth however everything he says is not going to be true. In my opinion he is in serious error with regards to Islam.
Carolyne says
I sincerely hope, as an Atheist, that we are not fighting Islam in order to make Christians of us all. I believe we are fighting (Inasmuch as Obama allows) to save civilization from barbarians.
Champ says
I sincerely hope, as an Atheist, that we are not fighting Islam in order to make Christians of us all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“make Christians”?
This isn’t true. No one can “make” you, or anyone else, become a Christian.
JIMJFOX says
Disingenuous, I think. Quibbling over semantics proves nothing;
you know full well as I do, the point he’s making. There was a
time long ago,when indeed the Church COULD make you a
Christian, just as you could be forced into Islam even today.
Personally as an atheist I would LOVE every muslim to convert
to Christianity- by a long way the lesser of two evils.
Champ says
On a forum like Jihad Watch, it is never “quibbling” to point out an error like this one, since Christianity does not adhere to forced conversion—-whereas islam does.
And I’m certainly not being “disingenuous” either, but sincere in my effort to make this distinction.
You wrote:
“There was a time long ago,when indeed the Church COULD make you a Christian” …
Doing so is NOT following the teachings of Jesus.
Champ says
And this isn’t the first time that JIMJFOX has leveled the false moral equivalency nonsense here on JW—in an attempt to demonize *all* religions.
JIMJFOX ought to read one of Robert Spencer’s excellent books:
“Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t”
https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Peace-Christianity-Islam-Isnt/dp/1596985151
deja vu says
JIMJFOX : ‘There was a time long ago,when indeed the Church COULD make you a
Christian..’
With respect, the Catholic Church might have insisted on forced conversion to the Catholic Church, but no church organisation or human being can *make* anyone a Christian because genuine faith in Christ involves inward spiritual regeneration. God does not look upon the outward man but on the inner workings of his heart, mind and spirit. This inward regeneration is available to anyone who genuinely wishes to know God, and can happen in their own home or wherever they happen to be. Genuine conversion is an entirely personal, life-changing, one-to-one event between a seeker and God Himself. (John 3:16)
Church attendance, rituals and observances do not make anyone a Christian, neither can people be born a Christian. A church attendee perhaps, but NOT a true follower of Jesus as Biblically defined (which is the only definition that matters). Being a follower of Christ is relational, not ‘religious’. As believers we gather together with other believers simply to offer praise and worship to God and to learn more of Him through His Word, the Bible, as did the First Century body of believers. The church is never depicted in Scripture as a human organisation, or an immense building full of gold and valuable trappings, but as a living organism with Christ as its head, and each part (each believer) vital to the healthy functioning of it. All the rest is dross.
Pong says
“This isn’t true. No one can “make” you, or anyone else, become a Christian.”
Islam can.
When sharia law imposed in Europe, dimmitude will not be an option for the atheists. It is only for the people of the book. Atheists will have to belong to a domination, acceptable to islam, or face death.
gravenimage says
It has now been five weeks since my debate with Msgr. Stuart Swetland, president of Donnelly College in Kansas City, Kansas, during which he stated his opinion that those who believe that Islam is not a religion of peace had placed themselves in a state of disobedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church
……………………..
This is, of course, utterly absurd.
For one thing, this would put generations of devout Catholics–including most popes since the 7th century–in such a state of supposed disobedience, as they were well acquainted with the violence of Islam.
Pope Callixtus III denounced Islam as a “diabolical sect.” Pius II warned against Muhammad as a “false prophet,” and Pope Eugene condemned “the abominable sect of Mahomet”.
And there was sharp criticism of Islam in past centuries by saints such as Thomas Aquinas, and John of Damascus, who called Islam “diabolical.”
And one need not go back that far in history–the previous pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI–who is still living–in his Regensburg address quoted Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, who said, “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
Are all of these popes and saints somehow “disobedient” to church teachings?
Of course, it is only recently that the Catholic Church has decided to go back on centuries of Catholic teaching in declaring that Islam is a “religion of peace”.
And where did the idea that Islam is a “religion of peace” come from? It was *not* from Catholic scholars, but rather from a book published by Muslim Ishtiaq Husain Qureshi in India in 1930.
Mark Durie: “Anyone saying ‘Islam Is A Religion Of Peace’ needs to read this”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/12/mark-durie-anyone-saying-islam-is-a-religion-of-peace-needs-to-read-this
He was later heavily involved with founding the Muslim supremacist state of Pakistan. He was a big backer of Shari’ah law and “political Islam”, having written a book titled “Ulema in Politics”.
“The Religion of Peace” was written as a form of Taqiyya, when Islam was at its lowest ebb of power. Actual Muslim scholars, in fact, regularly sneer at the idea.
But the witless Msgr. Swetland not only swallows this tripe, he appears to believe that it is orthodox Catholic teaching.
JIMJFOX says
And what does Pope Francis say???
gravenimage says
Jim, there has been plenty here at Jihad Watch about the dhimmitude of the current pontiff:
“Pope Francis: ‘It’s not fair to identify Islam with violence. It’s not fair and it’s not true.’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/pope-francis-its-not-fair-to-identify-islam-with-violence-its-not-fair-and-its-not-true
There is much, much more on his incessant whitewash of Islam. None of this appeasement has kept him from being a target for pious Muslims, though:
“Islamic State names Pope “enemy number one” for being a ‘non-believer’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/islamic-state-names-pope-enemy-number-one-for-being-a-non-believer
Kelly says
Pope Francis has now said that itis satanic to kill in the name of God and is hoping that all religions will declare the same.
E. Maria V says
The problem with this pope is he sounds Catholic one day, the next day he says something that’s total heretical. He can’t make up his mind where he stands and that’s not of God
Woody says
Gravenimage, you are spot on.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Woody.
JIMJFOX says
I emailed Robert Spencer years ago, on hearing he was a Catholic. I was somewhat disappointed
by this as my respect for this man of great courage was challenged; I opined that it was ‘a pity
you’re not an atheist’ since arguing from a religious basis against another religion was skating on
thin ice. Naturally he defended his beliefs and there was no offence taken on either side.
Now- THIS. Exactly what I was trying to say, not only from this clownish bishop, but also like-minded
stupidity from the Pope, no less. Robert now finds himself in conflict with a senior church official in
addition to Islam. And NO, it is not just jihad, but the ideology of the religion of peace itself.
Mark Swan says
When most Christians comment here, they seem to make their comments without trashing someone
else’s belief, unless it is Islam’s Jihad, which, it is already known, that most are against here.
How about a modicum of appearing respectful to others here, who can believe anything they want,
can’t they.
gravenimage says
JIMJFOX wrote:
I emailed Robert Spencer years ago, on hearing he was a Catholic. I was somewhat disappointed
by this as my respect for this man of great courage was challenged; I opined that it was ‘a pity
you’re not an atheist’ since arguing from a religious basis against another religion was skating on
thin ice.
……………………………
Jim, one might make this argument if Robert Spencer were simply arguing against Islam on doctrinal grounds.
But he *is not*.
He is talking about the oppression and violence of Islam–and its supremacist goals to force everyone to submit to it.
Islam is a threat to *us all*–Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Pagans Animists, Agnostics, Atheists…
Robert Spencer has always emphasized this, and has covered *all* the victims of Islam, of whatever faith and none.
Moreover, he has partnered with both other people of faith and with Atheists and Agnostics–long time contributor Hugh Fitzgerald is himself an Atheist, as are quite a few respected posters here.
The truth is that Robert Spencer has never proselytized here, nor has he made opposing Jihad on JW contingent on sharing his faith.
And, with respect, you are mistaken if you believe that only Agnostics and Atheists should oppose the horror of Jihad–this is something that *every* decent person should do, whatever their spiritual beliefs.
Kepha says
With all due respect, Jim, had I been Robert, I’d have replied to you that it’s a pity you’re not a Christian, because your “atheist” opposition to Islam shares with Islam a fundamental anti-Christian mindset.
I suspect that people like Robert, who appears to be fairly knowledgeable about what Christianity is, see Islam’s denial of the Incarnation, Trinity, the atonement, resurrection, and Deity of Jesus Christ as attacks on things very dear to the Christian heart–and add to that the persecution and other pressures that Christians of the Antiochene/Syrian/Church of the East kind have endured for a millennium under Islamic rule. I am also of the mind that our honorable host and a lot of other Christians here (myself included) have studied the Bible and concluded that regardless of whatever might have happened in history, the weapons that God gives and would have us use in our spiritual war are spiritual rather than steel–and are bothered by the Jihadi movement because it takes to heart the frank glorification of violence we find in the Qur’an and Hadith; and see it now unleashed against all non-Islamic civilizations.
Jim, I don’t know how old you are. But I’m an American of a generation that was taught we could not question that the movement away from the West’s Christian roots and the theory of evolution were major events in the “liberation” of mankind. Yet later in life I had a colleague from China who rejected evolution and became a Christian of a very “fundamentalist” variety because she saw evolution as a major underpinning of a highly oppressive and vicious Communist system. Knowing something of Marxist theory and practice myself, I could only concede that, given her own experience, she had a valid point. I myself am of the mind that evolutionary materialism, with its various little godlets and mental rather than metal idols, gave us as a political artefact not liberal democracy but 20th century totalitarianism.
Which brings us to the point of “saving civilization”. Sure. Hahaha. Bumper sticker of all the other symbols in that silly “Coexist” bumper sticker fleeing in terror from the Islamic crescent. But which “civilization”? Frankly, I shed few tears over the demise of Gibbons’ beloved classical civilization, in which “freedom” was the license granted to wealthy and powerful males to do what they would with those weaker, including temples dedicated to pederasty. I just read an article by Tom Holland, in which, “atheist” that he is, he admits the morality he honors (including the protection of the weak rather than their exploitation) is rooted in Christianity (do I hear the damned shade of Nietzsche sneering at another example of what he called “English flaatheads”?). I think of Alasdair MacIntyre’s observation that the universal natural law of the enlightenment looked suspiciously like Catholic ethics in Diderot and Lutheran ethics in Kant. While you are afraid of being “made a Christian”, am I to sacrifice all in an anti-Jihad struggle so the cool kids of 1968 (as opposed to nerds like me) may turn my grandchildren into empty-headed sexxual playthings (as the evolutionary materialist “educational” establishment of which I am a rebellious part seems to expect)? Hell, no.
Elaine McMurren says
Well said. Thank you.
Elaine McMurren says
We Christians have a DUTY to protect ourselves, our families, and our homes. We are not the aggressors here and there is NOTHING Christian about being a lazy wimp. ⚜
Elaine McMurren says
To understand Catholicism, you need to look much deeper in history. See John Henry Newman and G.K. Chesterton.
Karen says
In 4.5 lines of text, Msgr. Swetland hedged his defamatory position twice with the phrase “seems to”. (Plausible deniability?) Anyone who needs such a qualifier is afraid to make a direct statement; he wants a weasel clause while defaming his opponent. Therefore Msgr. Swetland’s position is not worth reading, and should be ignored. What a bore he is.
AformerMuslim says
People in the high positions have lost their backbones. They want you to affirm this creed, ‘Islam is the religion of peace.’ They want you to stop waking up to the truth about Islam. They want you to stop thinking.
I believe it when Islamists say, ‘Islam will dominate the world.’ In the presence of these lefties, I reckon they will have not a problem dominating the world.’
May Lord Jesus protect us.
A Former Muslim
http://www.aformermuslim.com
Kay says
Read 1John 4.
Georg says
Msgr,
You need to be slapped.
-Take care and brush your hair
Georg says
gravenimage says
Well, Muslims certainly believe that women should be slapped around…
Georg says
Yep, and Msgr thinks if you don’t defend the Koran, with its women-beating-encouragement verses, then you aren’t Catholic. Can’t say I saw that one coming.
gravenimage says
Yes, what Swetland is defending in Islam could not be more opposed to Christian values–though I doubt very much that he grasps that.
Pong says
Catholic Church (and other denominations) view on islam is not theological, but political. Catholic Church is not only an institution, but a country with all institutions any country has.
In practice it is difficult to separate a catholic dogma from a political statement. As a result, it creates many difficulties for the ordinary catholics. The main problem is that one has to go through the process of “cherry picking”. A jew can move from one synagogue to another, if unhappy with the rabi’s views on islam, without sacrificing any of his religious principals. It is much more difficult with catholics.
Support for islam has been an official policy of the Catholic Church for many years. Today, it is impossible to move up the ranks, if one doesn’t support such policy. Catholics must honestly recognise the situation and act accordingly. One thing this little bishop made clear, that according to official position of the church, one cannot support Robert Spencer and remain a catholic.
As the debate with the bishop, Robert is so much above him in every aspect of knowledge and human decency, that one even feels uncomfortable to look at them with any degree of seriousness.
gravenimage says
Pong wrote:
Support for islam has been an official policy of the Catholic Church for many years. Today, it is impossible to move up the ranks, if one doesn’t support such policy.
……………………..
Well, the previous pontiff became pope without uncritically supporting Islam.
More:
Catholics must honestly recognise the situation and act accordingly. One thing this little bishop made clear, that according to official position of the church, one cannot support Robert Spencer and remain a catholic.
……………………..
Withholding support for the views of Robert Spencer is *not*, as you appear to believe, a tenet of the Catholic Church. There are many Catholic clerics–including the former pope–and many ordinary Catholics who also warn against Islam.
Jack Diamond says
Oriana Fallaci would say, after her private audience with Benedict, that her views on Islam and his were identical.
gravenimage says
Yes–thanks for reminding us of that, Jack.
The idea that the Catholic Church is doctrinally dhimmi is simply not the case, the current pontiff notwithstanding.
Jack Diamond says
For what it’s worth, pronouncements on Islam as in Vatican II are pastoral and not doctrinal. They are not binding on all Catholics to believe. In fact, they can never be doctrinal because they are quite beyond the range of the Magisterium and the range of teachings on “matters of faith and morals” they are limited to. Svetland’s position might be PC but he stands on no solid ground. As summed up here:
“Now, “matters of faith” concern the body of Catholic theological doctrine inherited from scripture and tradition and interpreted by councils and popes. This includes teachings concerning the Trinity, the nature of Christ, original sin, nature and grace, justification, the sacraments, and so forth. It also includes historical claims very closely connected with these theological teachings, such as claims about the Resurrection of Christ, Peter’s status as the first pope, and so on. Matters of “morals” concern the body of Catholic ethical teaching inherited from scripture and tradition and interpreted by councils and popes. It also includes matters of natural law, of which the Church claims to be an authoritative interpreter.
Questions about the nature of Islam and the content of its doctrines simply do not fall into either one of these categories. Islam is not only a religion distinct from Catholicism, but arose six centuries after what Catholicism regards as the close of public revelation at the time of the apostles. In no way, then, from the point of view of Catholicism, can Islam represent a genuine revelation from God. Hence determining what counts as “authentic Islam” is in no way a part of the Church’s task of handing on or interpreting the deposit of faith. How Islam arose, what it teaches, its political and cultural implications, etc. are empirical questions on a par with questions such as what the causes of World War II were, whether Lao Tzu really existed, what the chemical composition of salt is, what the basic tenets of Georgist economic theory are, and so forth. Since they lie outside the domain of Catholic faith and morals, the Church has no special expertise on such matters and thus cannot pronounce authoritatively on them.
When a prominent orthodox Catholic theologian and churchman like Msgr. Swetland confidently (but falsely) asserts that taking a positive view of Islam and rejecting opinions like Spencer’s are nothing less than matters of binding Catholic doctrine, he threatens to give grave scandal. For some Catholics who sincerely think that Spencer’s views are well-supported might mistakenly conclude that the Church requires the faithful to accept falsehoods, and may for that reason even consider leaving the Church. And some non-Catholics otherwise attracted to Catholicism might refrain from entering the Church, on the mistaken supposition that doing so would require them to assent to something they sincerely believe to be false. ”
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2016/08/is-islamophilia-binding-catholic.html
Serenanocturna says
I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead U to realize the ease with which the Lord is helping U to finally leave the pseudo-christian cult of catholicism & instead be lead to the Truth – not the Tradition nor the Magisterium, but the Living Word which is the Scripture from the LORD Himself. The cult is about raw earthly power. The Word is about eternal life. Uve already got one foot & Ur big toe out of the Vatican’s door. Walk away from this heretical cult & then begins Ur real walk with the Lord.
Woody says
2 Thess 2:15 reads “Therefor, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours”. Letter of ours refers to Sacred Scripture. Oral statement is what Catholics mean by Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is not human tradition which can be either good or bad. Sacred Tradition is the teachings of the Catholic Church handed down from one generation to the next. 1 Timothy 3:15 states ” But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth”. This verse clearly states the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Nowhere does the Bible actually state that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is the Church that has existed since the time of Christ, not the Protestant Church that began in the 16th century.
deja vu says
Sorry Woody, the church referred to in that text means the ‘ekklesia’, meaning the ‘called out’ ones. It cannot possibly refer to the Roman Catholic Church which eventually superseded the 1st century Apostolic Church.
Woody says
Deja vu, I dare you to present any historical evidence of your first century Apostolic Church. We do have writings from the Early Church Fathers which you can find with a simple google search. Read their writings and you will see they held Catholic beliefs.
Mark Swan says
Wo-ah Partner, get off that high horse, get you one you can ride—You say—
“I dare you to present any historical evidence of your first century Apostolic Church”
I can give you literally volumes of work on this one subject, but lucky for all, I will not.
The Bible reveals that God does not operate in a capricious and haphazard manner. The Apostle Paul wrote: “God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints” (1 Corinthians 14:33). To spread the gospel, Jesus called and trained twelve disciples (Luke 6:12–16). They were to go first to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” and later to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5–6, 18). Paul was sent to the Gentiles and the children of Israel, while Peter was sent primarily to the Jews—of Judea and also of the “dispersion” (Acts 9:15; Galatians 2:7–8). When Philip preached in Samaria, he coordinated his activities with the headquarters church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:5–14).
The Apostle Paul followed this same pattern (Galatians 1:18–19; 2:1–2). The book of Acts shows that God guided the spread of the gospel by supernatural means (Acts 10; 13:1–2; 16:6–10), and that He provided the strategy and leadership that directed the spread of early Christianity.
Later, the Apostle Paul sent preachers and teachers to specific areas: Tychicus to Ephesus, Crescens to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia and Crete (Ephesians 6:21–22; 2 Timothy 4:10; Titus 1:5). This harmonizes with what later histories record about the apostles’ organized movements. Early church historian Eusebius wrote: “Thomas… was chosen for Parthia, Andrew for Scythia, John for Asia” (Ecclesiastical History, Bk. 3, chap. 1). Cressy, an Oxford graduate and Benedictine monk in the 17th century, wrote that the apostles divided by lot the regions of the world, for preaching the gospel (Church History of Brittany, vol. 4, Bk. 1, chap. 6). Fragmented bits of Church history may lead to the mistaken idea that Christianity spread in a chaotic fashion, but the complete record of the Bible and history reveal something very different.
Regrettably, modern secular scholars often convey an erroneous impression of what can be known about the apostles’ travel, and about the arrival of true Christianity in Europe’s western isles. Clement, the fourth bishop of the church in Rome, wrote in the late first century that the Apostle Paul, “after preaching in the east and west… taught righteousness to the whole world, and came to the extreme limit of the west” (Epistle to the Corinthians, chap. 5, in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 9, p. 231). Some think Clement’s phrase “the extreme limit of the west” refers to Rome, while others believe it refers to Spain or Britain. Yet any map of the Roman Empire in the first century shows that the Britannic Isles—not Rome or Spain—represent the extremity of the west. Gildas, a sixth century British monk, observed that “the island of Britain lies virtually at the end of the world, towards the west and north-west” (The Ruin of Britain, Bk. 3, chap. 1, Winterbottom, ed., p. 16).
Tertullian, bishop of Carthage in the second century, wrote: “The regions of Britain which have never been penetrated by the Romans [southwest England, Wales and Scotland] have received the religion of Christ” (Def. Fidei, p. 179). Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea in the early 300s, records that “the apostles passed beyond the ocean to the Isles called the British Isles” (Demonstratio Evangelica, Bk. 3, chap. 5). Eusebius had access to a substantial library at Caesarea, which contained sources that have since been lost. Theodoret, bishop of Cyprus in Syria (circa 430ad) states that “Paul, liberated from his first captivity at Rome, preached the Gospel to the Britons and others in the West… and the Cymry [the Welsh]” (D. Civ. Gracae Off., Bk. 9). Around 300ad, Dorotheous, bishop of Tyre, stated that “Aristobulus, whom Paul saluted [Romans 16:10] was bishop of Britain” and that Simon Zelotes also came to Britain (Synopsis de Apostol., Synops. 9, 23). Gildas says that the coming of Christianity to Britain “happened first, as we know, in the last years of the emperor Tiberius [14–37ad]” (The Ruin of Britain, p. 18).
This means that Christianity arrived in Britain no later than 37ad—less than a decade after Christ’s crucifixion. Gildas also recognizes the Britons as God’s “latter-day Israel” (ibid., p. 28).
Scholars in previous centuries did accept these early reports as trustworthy accounts of history. James Ussher, Archbishop of Ireland and one of the greatest scholars of the 17th century, presented considerable evidence that James, Simon Zelotes, Simon Peter, the Apostle Paul and others brought Christianity to Europe’s western isles in the first century (The Whole Works of James Ussher, vol. 5, chap. 1, Erlington). Robert Parsons, an English Jesuit and Oxford scholar, asserted in his 17th century work The Three Conversions of England that the apostles first brought Christianity to the island, and that “the Christian religion began in Britain within fifty years of Christ’s Ascension” (p. 14). Modern scholars are ignoring the evidence when they claim that the spread of Christianity to Europe’s western isles “left no narrative trace” and that it has been “lost beyond recovery.”
But what happened to the true gospel, which the Apostles brought to Europe’s western isles in the first century? How do the above-mentioned reports jibe with widely accepted traditions that Patrick converted the Irish in the fifth century, and that Augustine brought Christianity to England in the seventh century?
On these points, reputable scholars make some surprising admissions. Irish Catholic historians relate that “traditionally… Saint Patrick has been credited with converting the entire Irish race from paganism in the very short period between 432 and 461… however, we have to admit that there were certainly Christians in Ireland before Patrick arrived… and that the saint worked as an evangelist only in part of the island [the north]” (Walsh and Bradley, p. 1). Irish writer Liam de Paor wrote that “Ireland was not converted by one man [Patrick]… it may be that Christianity reached the west country [of Britain] and the southern Irish sea virtually independent of the Roman system, at a very early date… centuries before Patrick” (Paor, pp. 21, 23).
There are traditions that the Apostle James preached the gospel in Ireland before returning to Jerusalem, where he was martyred (see MacManus, The Story of the Irish Race, p. 103). Indeed, many historical sources confirm that the apostles brought true Christianity to Ireland four centuries before Patrick’s visit. The story that Patrick was the first to bring Christianity to Ireland is a fable!
There is a whole lot more on this.
gravenimage says
This is not about Catholicism being “heretical”–this is about foolish people in any religious hierarchy pretending that Islam is not a threat.
Unfortunately, there are many Protestant denominations where this is a problem, as well.
Woody says
I was responding to a post that claimed Catholicism is heretical.
gravenimage says
Woody, I was replying to Serenanocturna’s anti-Catholic comments, and not to your own post.
Woody says
To gravenimage, Sorry. All is forgiven.
Lesley says
Swetland is in a position of power and is charged with representing the Catholic faith and guiding the members of the flock that he can reach, and also to represent the brand in an honorable way.
I would characterize Shetland’s behavior as abuse of power rooted in willful ignorance.
In a perfect world, Swetland should make amends to Robert Spencer for being so rude, and issued a disciplinary consequence from the Church.
Once again, Robert Spencer shows grace under pressure. Mr. Spencer is a far nicer person than I am… Thank you for persevering, Robert Spencer 🙂
gravenimage says
Hear, hear!
Elaine McMurren says
It becomes more difficult to believe the modernists are only willfully ignorant. They seem to be acting out of actual hatred of Jesus Christ and the One True Faith. It makes me very sad to say this.
gravenimage says
I’m sure Swetland believes he is being virtuous in holding that Islam is a “religion of peace”, even as the victims suffer and die, in part because fools like himself cannot bring themselves to face the truth.
KrazyKafir says
The Catholic church is a left wing institution now. Which is why, Pope Karl the 1st, is such an apropos title.
Ciudadano says
Now mr Spencer knows how Gallilei felt. The sun rotates around the earth because the Pope says so, even against all scientific evidence. Islam is a religion of peace because the Pope says so, even agains historical evidence, the opinion of many saints and popes, and so many martyrs executed by Islamic rulers. But 2+2=4, and no authority can change that fact.
October 7, the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, celebrates the victory at Lepanto, the battle that saved the Christian West from defeat at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.
September 12 is the memorial of the Most Holy Name of Mary, established as a universal memorial for the Church in thanksgiving for the victory at Vienna.
Louise M. says
Thank you, Mr Spencer for your work and your courage.
As a Catholic, I now refer myself directly to the Teachings of Christ in the New Testament.
When the Pope dared compare its value to the Qu’ran’s, I could just conclude that …..he had not red it himself !!!
No possible comparison between love, compassion, forgiveness, healing versus hatred, pedophilia, cruel punishments, killings, …
Since then, I call him Mr Bergoglio, and see him as Globalist politician. Serving Caesar-Soros…in the name of Mohammad !
Mark, 12:17 : Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
I hope the Catholic Church will have a true spiritual leader soon. If not, I still have the Teachings I need.
Bridget Ames says
Arrogance is really deep within his core belief system. I listened well he pretty much derided Robert and the other Eastern rite Catholic. He clearly had major gaps on his knowledge of the Church and History. As a Roman rite Catholic myself I have come to realize how ignorant the West is when it comes to Eastern matters. That is within both the Church and the secular realm. Robert you are a champion for the Church herself. I greatly admire David Wood and Dr. Bill Warner, but you I appreciate on a different level because you are Catholic. I truly appreciate all that you do, when I studied world religions for my degree I was short changed by the reality of Islam. Though I believe Hilary Belloc to be very intelligent or even a genius. I feel like he missed the mark when it came to Islam, which I am now convinced is only an Ideology and not even a heresy of the Church. Please continue to inform.
gravenimage says
Bridget, I don’t think this issue in this case is really about Eastern rite Catholicism vs the West.
It is more about denial over the threat of Islam. I’m afraid you find that in the Eastern rite church, as well:
“Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch: ‘No one defends Islam like Arab Christians’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/melkite-greek-catholic-patriarch-no-one-defends-islam-like-arab-christians
This may be more about appeasement than “political correctness”, but it is still as dangerous.
Luckily, there are also some brave and outspoken people in the Eastern rite church, as well:
“Melkite Greek Catholic Archbishop to West: ‘Why are your bishops silent on a threat that is yours today as well?’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/02/melkite-greek-catholic-archbishop-to-west-why-are-your-bishops-silent-on-a-threat-that-is-yours-today-as-well
Just as in the Western Catholic church–and with Protestant denominations, as well–it’s pretty much a mixed bag.
خَليفة says
The Catholic Church has been wrong before:
Remember when the Catholic world was flat?
Remember when the sun, and the rest of the universe, revolved around the earth, when earth was the center of the universe? Remember Galleleo?
Islam states the sun revolves around the earth too.
When an organization or a person stops seeking the truth, they stop finding truth, and thus, when they speak, they speak less and less truth and at some point only tell lies.
Woody says
Members of the Catholic Church at one time thought the universe revolved around the sun, but it was never declared to be Catholic doctrine or dogma which everyone should believe. Islam actually believes the sun sets in a muddy pool in the west.
gravenimage says
True, Woody.
Rob says
As the boss (Francis) goes, so go the staff.
Woody says
Not
E. Maria V says
I called in when this show aired. With all due respect Fr. Stewart Swetland is in great error. Does he not know the past history of Islam?? The Muslims have been conquering and killing by the sword and have gained so much territory century after century and if you don’t convert, the simple fact is, you die. My daughter & I went to Granada Spain 11yrs. ago to visit my niece who was studying there. Granada is about 45 miles from Morrocco so of course it has a large population of Muslims. Anyway, we visited a Muslim cafe where the Muslim owner came to our table and chatted with us. He invited us the next day and because he seemed nice, we took him up on it. I don’t recall how we got into politics but to this day, I will never forget what he stated to us; He stated; “we are going to take back Spain.” I said to him, Spain was never your country, you conquered it for about 300yrs. but it was never yours! (we were speaking Spanish) He then rose up and pointed his finger in my face since I was doing all the talking, and stated; “ah ha!! “And we are going to conquer your country!” (he knew we were Americans) I then said; really? Just how do you plan on doing this? He stated; “we are already coming in through Canada and through Mexico!” Mind you, this was 11yrs. ago. One more comment: Pope Francis does not believe in converting people especially Muslims. When St. Francis went to the Middle East and met the Sultan, he went there to “CONVERT” the Muslims. What’s been happening for the past couple yrs. is many people in the Catholic colleges are attempting to change history about the meeting that took place with St. Francis of Assisi and the Sultan by saying that St. Francis went there to make Peace with the Muslims which was NOT the case. St. Francis went there to CONVERT the Muslims and of course, it didn’t work. Msgr. Swetland comes from the “church of nice,” he doesn’t want to believe that Islam is evil and that their main goal is to conquer the world. One more thing; Islam is a political Ideology and not a religion so this should always be stated
gravenimage says
Very disturbing story. Thanks for sharing it.
E. Maria V says
I called into the show when it aired but I see my comment was taken off this Website. My comment was the same as above.
I have a big problem with Msgr. Stewart Swetland stating that Islam is a “Great religion.” It is NOT a religion!! Its a Political Ideology..!!!!
Catholic Nerd says
Mr. Spencer, thank you for your courage to tell the facts. Being made to feel unwelcome by the one place where you are supposed to always be welcome must be so painful.
Please continue telling the facts. We still love our Suicidal Church and can’t give up on her, even when she kicks us in the teeth.
Chris Malan says
But isn’t this exactly as the Catholic Church teaches? They decide what followers should believe and what not. If you didn’t sign on for this when joining the Catholic Church, you are in the wrong Church. If the pope says there is purgatory, there is purgatory. If the pope says you can buy indulgences to shorten the time of people in purgatory, then you’d better buy those indulgences. If the pope says you should pray to Mary, you’d better pray to Mary. If the pope says you can now pray to Mother Theresa, you can now pray to Mother Theresa. If the pope says you must pray to this statue, the good Catholic is on his knees, praying to the statue before the pope has finished speaking. Never mind that none of this is in the Bible. This is just how things are.
Catholics who don’t like this should leave the Catholic Church. Don’t worry, you won’t go to hell. After all, those peaceful Muslims are not in the Catholic Church and the Catholic authorities have so many good things to say about them.
Woody says
The Catholic Church does not decide what anybody should or should not believe. The Catholic Church relies upon God to lead it to truth. God gave Peter the keys to the kingdom and declared the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.
Woody says
Jesus said to Peter and the apostles whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.
E. Maria V says
To Chris Malan; On Statues: Ex 20:4-5, Ex 25:18-19, Numbers21:8-9, 1Kgs 6:23-29, 1Kgs 7:25-45
On our Blessed Mother: Lk 1:28,30 Lk1:48- Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”
On Mother of God: Lk1:43, Mt1:23, Lk1:35, Gal4:4
On the Primacy of Peter: Mt16:18, Mt16:19, Lk23:32, Jn21:17, Mk16:7, Lk24:34, Acts1:13-26, Acts2:14, Acts2:14, Acts3:6-7, Acts10:44-46, Acts15:7, Acts15:19, Gal1:18, Mt10:1-4, Mk3:16-19, Acts1:13, Lk9:32 Jn6:69
On Faith Alone: Jam2:24, Jam2:26, Gal5:6, 1Cor13:2, Jn14:15, Mt19:16-17,
On, are you saved: Rom8:24, Eph2:5,8, 2Tim1:9, Tit3:5
Present Process (I am being saved) Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13, Mk 8:35, Acts 15:11, Rom 5:9-10, Rom 13:11, 1Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, Heb 9:28
On Good Works: Mt 7:21, Mt 19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rom 2:2-8, Gal 5:4-6, Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12-13, Jam 2:14-24.
Assurance of Salvation? Mt 7:21, Mt 24:13, Rom 11:22, Phil 2:12, 1Cor 9:27, 1Cor 10:11-12, Rom 6:4, 1Pet 3:21, Heb 10:22
So my take on graven images; Do you have a mother? (which by the fact that you’re alive). After she gave birth to you, did you or the rest of the family put her aside never again to acknowledge her?? Was she just used as a vessel to bring you into this world or, do you honor her? We Catholics have great regard for the mother of Almighty God and we honor her just as we honor our father and our mother. If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for us!
Do you have any pictures in your home of your family? Do you love and honor them? We Catholic’s have pictures and statues of the Mother of God, saints and Jesus Christ crucified to remember them, to honor them with all due respect. We pray to Mary for her powerful Intercession, not to worship her. We also venerate her as we do the saints but we only Worship Jesus Christ.
Did you know where you Protestants got the bible from? Yep, the Catholic church. The problem is that Martin Luther decided to become the god of the Lutheran church and not only took out seven books of the holy bible but also changed many of the words to suit his new church. The Catholic church that Jesus Christ Himself founded is not without sinners. If it was sinless, it would not be on this earth. There will always be saints and sinners in God’s holy church from the top, down. Yes, we have had about half dozen bad popes but they never changed “DOGMA.” We also know that there will be a very bad pope as we get closer to end times. Since the beginning when Christ instituted His holy Catholic church, evil man has been attempting to bring her down and this has been happening for 2,000yrs. what other so called Christian denomination can claim that? We Catholic’s know our church is heading for very rough times even persecution but in the end, Christ will claim back His church and it will hold the “True Remnant” of the Catholic faith.
I was a Protestant for 26yrs and now, home to the True Catholic church Christ founded
Darmanad says
F*ck religion and the horse it rode in on.
I have enormous respect for the scholarship of RS combined with his witty wrting style. I have always regarded this site as teaching about the total absence of civil and human rights in the ideology of Islam. All religious debate is irrelevant babble. The Christians should take all their debate about the rightness of Christianity vs Islam to some other place. We don’t want it and don’t need it here.It only serves to dilute (and pollute) the debate.
Mark Swan says
This article shows a big religion christian, shielding a big religion Islam, being the debate itself.
E. Maria V says
The “so called” religion of Islam is NOT a religion but a political Ideology and its very sad that you have such a contempt for Jesus Christ. People with your attitude are very angry when you are confronted with the “TRUTH” for the Truth is never pleasant. Our Lord was not only crucified for the “TRUTH” (because He is the TRUTH) but also to break the chains of hell so that we now have the chance of Salvation.
I will pray for you
Baucent says
“Robert seems to be a dissenter from the papal magisterium.”
Which papal magisterium should be the question? Since the 7th century AD I would have thought most Popes would have held a very similar position on Islam that Robert and others hold. Muslims say their religion hasn’t changed so if the churches position has changed, where is the error?
Woody says
You seem to be under the impression that everything the Pope or Magisterium say is infallible. The truth of the matter is hardly anything they say is infallible. You should try to obtain at least a juvenile understanding of infallibility before you make such comments.
Waleed (A Muslim) says
Msgr. Stuart Swetland is correct in every word he said. We don’t hate non-Muslims, nor have we been ordered to kill them. True, these texts are in the Quran but you need to understand that the Quran was revealed to the Prophet in a 23-year period – sometimes during certain situations. The verse about killing the People of the Book until they pay the tax is one of those verses that must be read in the context of its historical setting (i.e., around 1400 years ago). Msr. Stuart is absolutely right that the vast majority of Muslims do not follow the interpretations put forth by lunatics such as ISIS and the like – simply because they are no mainstream. We don’t take them seriously ’cause they don’t represent Islam. There is not one prominent scholar in Islam who will approve that it is Muslims’ obligation to kill non-Muslims until they pay the tax. Spencer’s argument is completely false. Their is no consensus among the four schools of thought, as he contends.
I know many of you would rather not believe me and I understand. However, to gain a real understanding about what mainstream Islam is all about (taking into account all Quranic text and Prophet teachings), I refer you to the letter that prominent scholars all around the world sent to the ISIS leader in 2014. ISIS was regarded by these scholars as un-Islamic and the letter contains evidence from Islamic references. Read it if you really want to know the truth, which coincides with Msr. Stuart’s words. You can access the letter at http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com.
Robert Spencer says
“Letter to Baghdadi” debunked point-by-point here: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/international-group-of-muslim-scholars-refutes-islamic-states-islamic-case-while-endorsing-jihad-sharia-caliphate
Mark Swan says
Good One Mr. Spencer
Champ says
Waleed wrote:
“Msr. Stuart is absolutely right that the vast majority of Muslims do not follow the interpretations put forth by lunatics such as ISIS and the like” …
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not all muslims are terrorists, but the “vast majority” of terrorists ARE **MUSLIMS** …
And you mentioned “lunatics” …well, that would include YOU, since you follow probably the most heinous criminal that ever lived: muhammad. So congratulations, you’re a lunatic, too.
The founder of your death cult was one very evil guy thereby islam is *wholly* evil at it’s core; which makes the whole islamic belief system an unholy cancer on humanity! …and YOU are a bold-faced LIAR when you claim that islam is a ‘religion of peace.’ It most certainly is NOT.
The quran is replete with commands for murder and mayhem, so take your rubbish elsewhere, since we embrace the unvarnished TRUTH about muhammad and islam here.
Woody says
Just more taqiyya.
JIMJFOX says
Yep. also add- Tawriyya, Kitman & Muruna; I wonder what are the officially sanctioned lies of other religions? SARC\
gravenimage says
Waleed (A Muslim) wrote:
Msgr. Stuart Swetland is correct in every word he said. We don’t hate non-Muslims, nor have we been ordered to kill them. True, these texts are in the Quran but you need to understand that the Quran was revealed to the Prophet in a 23-year period – sometimes during certain situations. The verse about killing the People of the Book until they pay the tax is one of those verses that must be read in the context of its historical setting (i.e., around 1400 years ago).
……………………………
What rot. There is nothing in the Qur’an or the other texts of Islam to imply that these diktats for slaughtering Infidels and imposing the Jizya on them are time-specific, nor have pious Muslims–including learned Muslim clerics–ever interpreted them in this manner.
More:
Msr. Stuart is absolutely right that the vast majority of Muslims do not follow the interpretations put forth by lunatics such as ISIS and the like – simply because they are no mainstream. We don’t take them seriously ’cause they don’t represent Islam.
……………………………
Again, rot. This *is* mainstream Islam, and the idea that this is just ISIS is ludicrous. There are thousands of such Jihad groups, and they all follow the same diktats of Islam.
More:
There is not one prominent scholar in Islam who will approve that it is Muslims’ obligation to kill non-Muslims until they pay the tax. Spencer’s argument is completely false. Their (sic) is no consensus among the four schools of thought, as he contends.
……………………………
What a bald-faced lie. Here is a scholar from Al-Azhar University itself, the seat of orthodox Sunni learning:
“Al Azhar Scholar: Christian Copts Will Pay Jizya”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/03/al-azhar-scholar-christian-copts-will-pay-jizya
And the Egyptian theologian Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars, has stated in his Al Jazeera program “Sharia and Life”–which has an estimated audience of 35 to 60 million viewers–that non-Muslims should be treated as dhimmis and required to pay Jizya.
And it is not just the Sunnis; The Iranian Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini indicated in his book “Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist” that non-Muslims should be required to pay Jizya.
There are many more examples. This is *not* a minority view.
More:
I know many of you would rather not believe me and I understand. However, to gain a real understanding about what mainstream Islam is all about (taking into account all Quranic text and Prophet teachings), I refer you to the letter that prominent scholars all around the world sent to the ISIS leader in 2014. ISIS was regarded by these scholars as un-Islamic and the letter contains evidence from Islamic references. Read it if you really want to know the truth, which coincides with Msr. Stuart’s words. You can access the letter at http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com.
……………………………
As Robert Spencer notes, this letter is meaningless.
The truth is that few Muslims actually oppose the ideology of ISIS–some just object to Al Baghdadi running the Caliphate. This is more about power struggle than ideological differences.
Jake says
I really think this was all settled long ago, with the Italian scientist and Christian Galileo. The church suppressed his observations of the motion of the planets, admittedly by the church, unjustly. The church is now speaking not about christ’s plan for man’s salvation, but about a matter which is not in their assigned sphere. They are not equipped to make statement’s of that nature about Islam. Doctor of the church, St Thomas Aquinas wrote of Islam and it would be good if the curren church leadership would consult this source as opposed to some imam thy spoke to at an interfaith breakfast.
John Boston says
Apparently, the Catholic Church is (again) prohibiting free thought and speech as in the Dark Ages. I feel for you, Mr. Spencer, but am sure you will keep speaking and writing in the way of truth, despite the tricks of the enemy.
As to the enemies of freedom, the Muslims: they belong to an entirely different world, a world which the current Pope does not seem to see at all. Muslims, all of them, belong to Dar al-Islam, the House of Submission. We infidels belong to Dar al-Harb, the House of War. According to Islamic authorities http://www.khilafah.com/clarifying-the-meaning-of-dar-al-kufr-a-dar-al-islam/ ,
there will be constant conflict between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb until Dar al-Harb is destroyed by conversion, subjugation, or armed confrontation with Dar al-Islam. In short, we are at war with Islam, whether US Pres. Obama admits it or not.
I have also a new Arabic word today: Dar al-Hurria (roll that rr) , the House of Liberty. Dar al-Hurria are the nations founded on Euro/American ideals of freedom of expression, the equality of all people, equity between the sexes, and, and of course the fundamental right to self defense.
I am afraid that many of our Dar al-Hurria nations, such as AU and UK, have already made it virtually impossible for a law-abiding citizen to defend him/herself. The founders of those nations did not simply copy-paste our First and Second Amendments into their Constitutions, as they should have. Now their citizens are paying the price. I could suggest a few *items* that can be made from hardware and work very effectively in self defense, but that is another subject.
Once again, bravo and continued victory to Mr. Spencer and all freedom fighters. Kafir Akbar!
duh swami says
disobedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church
You mist obey, because the priesthood knows what’s best for you…and don’t forget to write a check…
Les says
Dear Robert
I understand and agree with your frustration. The leftist church prelates have retreated from boldly proclaiming the Catholic truth ever since Vatican II which has fed the left’s dictatorship of relativism.
But please keep speaking the truth of Islam and do not let a few confused pacifist in the Church to define the Church or force you to leave the One Church founded by Jesus.
We are in strange times but in the end you are right the left is wrong.
rider says
Yes. Don’t leave the church, even if plenty among those in the hierarchy are wrong. The Church needs more people like Mr. Spencer who would speak the truth about Islam.
Elaine McMurren says
“Leftist…clerics…refuse to be charitable to those whose views they dislike.” TRUE. And those whose views they dislike include ALL of the saints before the 20th century and ALL of the popes before~1950-1960.
AvantiBev says
To Elaine McM
And all like me who attend and love the Tridentine Mass even though in some parishes that offer it, the Traditional Latin Mass goers double the donations in the collection plates at the other Masses. Keep your felt banners, hearty handshaking up and down the aisles, puppet parades and liturgical dancers, just let us have one Mass a Sunday in which we can worship our God as our ancestors worshipped with reverence, dignity and majesty.
Ginger says
“What Catholics once were, we are. If we are wrong, then Catholics through the ages have been wrong.
We are what you once were. We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped. If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. If you were right then, we are right now”.
Robert DePiante
RT says
1545 AD
Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)
No Catholic hate here…..I love Catholics…..but has Msgr. cracked open a history book? Raymond Ibrahim recently made the comment that anyone at this late date to call Islam a ‘religion of peace’ was either a fool or a liar or a bit of both.
Calling stinkweed a rose doesn’t make it a rose!
5The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”
6And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
Mark 7……NASB
RL Robison says
Well “thank you Jesus”, I am not Roman Catholic and forced to support a lie. By my observation, I think that Pope Francis is a humble and caring man (just human, folks) but extremely naive. Turning the other cheek against the truth of Islam would commit our children to worshiping Satan, which is forbidden to all Christians. For Islam’s “religious” support of murder, war, lies, humiliations, rape, child molestation, theft, torture, etc. means that either Mohammad (the wannabe prophet) or Allah (the god Mohammad says everyone should worship) is actually Satan. I suggest that Pope Francis re-read the book of Revelations and then complete a serious study of Islam’s “holy” texts.
AvantiBev says
Dear Mr, Spencer,
As a Roman Catholic who wandered in a liturgical desert for 20 years before finding once again the beauty, awe, majesty and TRUTH of the Tridentine Mass here in Chicago, I want you to know I empathize. But during the past 50 of my 60 years, I have seen the Spirit of Vat II and it sure smells like the smoke of Satan. We traditionalists are despised by the priests, religious & la-la laity of what the great Father George Rutler has called “The Age of Sentiment”.
Right now, even in our Church & within many of its various Rites, pathos trumps logos. Note how often our fellow Americans and fellow Christians answer a question of opinion with “I FEEL…” instead of “I think…”
Hang in there with constant prayer that we can arouse our fellow Catholics to the hard truths even during a papacy that leaves much to be desired by those of us who treasure thought as much as feeling.
I end by suggesting you correspond with Father Rutler at St. Michael’s in NYC. He was there that day. He saw. He is one of the most erudite priests of our time. Keep the faith!
Avanti Bev
Terry B says
Robert, Do not leave the Catholic Church. Keep receiving the sacraments to give you strength, on this difficult task you have. God is on your side!
Jon says
Mr. Spencer:
You know as well as I do that the “the floor of hell is littered with the bones of Bishops”.
There is no magisterial teaching that Islam is a Religion of Peace. Maybe a cult, but not a Religion (I’ll have to check on that myself).
If you weren’t being “counter-cultural”, then you would you would not be doing the Lord’s work, and you would not be able sleep with yourself. The Lord demands the truth be told. Not just part of the truth, but the entire truth. Leaving out facts, ignoring the facts, misrepresents the truth.
Keep up the great work and know that you are and your family are in so many peoples prayers.
AMDG, Jon
Jürg Rückert says
Nicolaus Fest, a german journalist said: If the shepard reckons the wolves in his herd, his sheeps are lost.
gravenimage says
Well said.
Dr. Christoph Heger says
First, Islam is no “religion of peace”. On the contrary, the Islamic doctrine is against all human rights, simply criminal.
Second, if the Pope declares Islam be a “religion of peace”, no Catholic is obliged to subscribe this humbug.
Anne Smith says
Mr Swetland said at the end of the conversation, that in his days at Oxford he seriously thought about Islam as a part of a potential religion to enter. That was very telling sign when he said that although I have no idea what he was going on about. How can someone be part Muslim.
Cecilia Ellis says
Robert, in the words of Jonathan Swift, “When a great genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.”
As an author, public speaker, and scholar, the truth you speak sheds immense light into the indisputable and indefensible reality that the canonical texts of Islam mandate violence against non-Muslims. Historical evidence further validates that charge.
Therefore, when you are assailed by those whose comments exemplify a mine field of appeasement, political correctness, fabrications or even ecclesial ladder-climbing, remember these words of Admiral David Farragut: “Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!”
Jonathan Swift and ADM Farragut were right; so, too, are you.
le mouron rouge says
Cecilia Ellis,
How elegant your words are, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Mr. Spencer,
In the words of a WWII Bomber Pilot, “If you aren’t encountering heavy flak, you aren’t in the fight.”
Thank you for all that you do.
Cecilia Ellis says
Le mouron rouge, thank you for your reply. I join with you in thanking Robert Spencer.
Ciudadano says
The position of the Catholic Church regarding Islam is far from settled. It seems the division of opinions goes all the way up to the cardinals:
Cardinal Burke explained general statements, such as “we’re all believing in the same God and so forth,” is “not helpful and ultimately it will be the end of Christianity.”
Maybe the same can be said about “islam is a religion of peace” general statement.
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=70915
Ali Bey says
Papacy said also that Earth was the center of universe. ¿Were christians obliged to follow that humbug?
Karen says
Good point!! A black eye that has lasted some 500 years.
Tony says
Dear Robert,
The Holy Universal Church is going through a dark age and deception is widespread (it’s not only failure to recognise Islam’s threats but other serious issues too).
This is in line with numerous warnings in claimed apparitions, inner locutions, and dreams.
But God, as always, is in control and as our Lady of Fatima says: finally my immaculate heart will triumph.
Take heart. You are admired by many.
Thanks for your courage,
tony
JIMJFOX says
“Christianity never ever had any “hard edges “. What is Christianity? For me, it can only be defined by the message and example of its founder, Jesus Christ. After all, it is called “Chirstianity [sic]. Jesus was a benign, loving, peaceful man with a beautiful message. No rough or hard edges to be found in it anywhere. I would suggest you read his message and his biography. You may find inspiration in it.”
May I suggest YOU need to do some reading- of the New Testament– MATTHEW 10–
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. shall be they of his own household.’36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Don’t come back with religious Newspeak ‘explaining’ this verse. It means that you must put God/Jesus/Spirit [used to be ‘Ghost but that’s not PC any more] before your loved ones. Why should I
find that a repugnant demand?
Finally, this thread shows the range of opinion on religion generally but in respect of ISLAM, you will find
no more implacable opponent than me. So no more accusations of ‘moral relativism’. It’s false.
JIMJFOX says
Last- to whoever said Robert Spencer’s ‘role’ was to proselytize or convert- please read
the title of his website- it is in fact to expose, oppose and inform us all about JIHAD.
I have bored you all quite enough. I’m off.
JIMJFOX says
“It means that you must put God/Jesus/Spirit…before your loved ones.
Why should I find that a repugnant demand?” I forgot to say–
ISLAM demands exactly the same.
Mark Swan says
JIMJFOX You are a staunch ally and much appreciated commenter here, do not forget this.
E. Maria V says
The so called Prophet Mohamed was not only a pedophile, but also a lunatic. The angel Mohamed that apparently appeared to him was most likely, Satan himself for Satan CAN appear as an “angel of light.” I feel sorry for all the Muslims who have drunk Mo hammed’s cool-aide through the centuries and they continue believing that Mo was inspired by an angel to start the new religion, Islam…… Islam has invaded Europe and now close to conquering America. When a Nation takes “Almighty God” out of a country, that country will fall by either invasion of her neighbors or by war. All the great nations of the past have fallen. It takes 200yrs. for a great nation to fall. We have gone about 220yrs but God’s patience is running out………..
SAKOVKT says
Well, it’s not like Vatican hasn’t had political episodes like this in the past although Lucrezia Borgia is a lot more fun to read about than a bunch of political lackeys.
However temporal the Vatican may have become, in those days, the popes were, at least, real players.
When you think about the centuries of conflict between Papal and Imperial rulers but, now, so many “Christian” churches are just propaganda ministries of the state.
It’s always so convenient to criticize the Christian politics of the inter-war period in Europe when, in fact, it was actually nothing new at that time and still isn’t.
Ah, well.
One of the most compelling Truths of Christianity is that people can screw up anything, even Churches, which never fails to convince.