When has this “dialogue,” which has been going on for years now, ever stopped a single Muslim from persecuting a single Christian? Which jihad attacks did it prevent? Which churches did it save from being burned by jihadis?
“Pope urges ‘sincere dialogue’ as he meets Nice attack victims,” by Catherine Marciano, AFP, September 24, 2016:
Rome (AFP) – Pope Francis on Saturday called for a “sincere dialogue” between Christians and Muslims as he met grieving relatives and survivors of France’s Bastille Day attack, in which a jihadist ploughed his truck into a crowd.
The pope, who this week denounced violence in the name of religion, declaring “there is no God of war”, met 180 people who were wounded or left traumatised or bereaved by the July 14 attack in Nice which claimed 86 lives.
“We need to start a sincere dialogue and have fraternal relations between everybody, especially those who believe in a sole God who is merciful,” he said, speaking in the Vatican’s giant Paul VI audience hall, adding that this was “an urgent priority.”
“It is with a feeling of great emotion that I am meeting you, those who are suffering in body and in spirit because an evening of festivity turned into one of violence which struck blindly at all, without taking into account their origins or religion,” the pontiff said.
“We can only respond to the Devil’s attacks with God’s works which are forgiveness, love and respect for the other, even if they are different,” he said.
Members of 58 families were flown in especially from the French Riviera resort city of Nice.
They were joined in Rome by 150 others who travelled from France by car and a delegation from a French regional interreligious group, including the Catholic bishop of Nice and Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox and Protestant representatives….

Linde Barrera says
In my humble opinion, this pope is a loser. I hope I’m wrong.
mortimer says
Linde wrote: “Loser”
Well, that depends if the cardinals decide to tell the pope to shut up. Some of them ‘get it’. It appears most of them KNOW NOTHING about Islam, and yet, they present themselves preposterously as EXPERTS on Islam when they aren’t even BEGINNERS!
Roman Catholics will withhold their offerings if the pope keeps blabbing uninformed RUBBISH about Islam.
Rob says
Can there be a Papal ‘recall’?
Malcolm (South Africa)5 says
Short answer.No
TJ says
Sincere dialogue between Christians and muslims would have to include some discussion around Isaiah 52:7. There Jesus returns on the terms of a victory for zion (the bible). It is necessary for His return to be one sided for numerous very good reasons. Some of which are: information in the koran is sparse compared to the bible, creating a need to study the bible to know anything about these religious figures. The koran contains unacceptable virulent exaggerations about the Jews. The quote where Jesus was trying to save the lives of Jews from the Romans, which shows His passion for Jews, was eliminated. In its place are these unacceptable virulent statements about Jews. This is adultery. Parable teaching in the koran is not nearly as talented as the parables of Jesus. The words of the murdered men of the bible were exchanged for something divisive and contrary to what they said, making a judgment in favor of one book necessary over the other. One way the koran did this is to say Mary got pregnant without sex, but then the koran turns around and says if you believe Jesus is God’s Son you are very guilty….this after admitting she got pregnant without sex. These are just some of the facts that prove the koran is abusive. Exaggerations mixed with calls to kill those who rightfully reject the exaggerations is the creation of and the embodiment of murder. This abusive relationship makes the terms of Isaiah 52:7- which declare a biblical victory as a part of His return- a righteous deed rather than an unrighteous one. Popes: you should not be bedfellows with men who steal authority from the murdered men of the bible- men who then turn and attack us for not doing the corrupt deed that they did. How can you choose to be bedfellows with men who steal authority from the murdered men of the bible over making love to a Christian woman? The fulfillment of the words in Isaiah 52 will put an end to these little flings for you are all weaker and less interesting than a biblical figure like Isaiah. Isaiah was made to play a role in the destruction of this abusive relationship described here, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop him from getting the measure of those who tried to steal from him. Isaiah deserves this after the koran threw him out and changed his story.
Linde Barrera says
To TJ- Hi TJ, this is my response to your very accurate comment of 11:23 pm, Sep. 24, 2016. I have lovely Muslim neighbors from Uzbekistan living in my building. I have written about them in other JW comments. (Yes they invited me to their mosque and yes they want me to learn about Islam but I politely refused and said several facts to them about Jesus Christ and Christianity.) One of the things they told me is that Jesus(aka Issa, their beloved prophet) will return to Earth at the End Times and break all the crosses and throw everyone into hell that defied Him and called Him “God”. Muslims also believe that: God is 1 God and cannot have “partners” like a son, and that Jesus was not crucified but spirited away and Judas died in Christ’s place. They told me when Jesus returns to Earth He will go to Syria and get married and live 40 more years and then die and be buried there. (!) Finally, they said that Jesus told His disciples that He must leave them but He will send them “the counselor” to be with them forever. This “counselor” is of course the prophet Muhammad, to the Muslims! To Christians, it is the Holy Spirit. My response to my Muslim neighbors was that if God is all powerful, all merciful, all knowing then He can do whatever He wants and is not limited to what our human minds conceive He can do. ln addition, I told them about Josephus who was a scribe and not a Christian, who documented Jesus’ death on the cross, as well as Judas who killed himself after getting 50 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. I also told them that the counselor was not Muhammad but the Holy Spirit. So I tried my best to get the truth out to them. Thanks again, TJ.
BC says
You need to understand that religion is all myth and has always been myth. as you illustrate Islam is myth based on myth. Mohammad was not clever enough to invent his own religion he had to borrow most of it from Christianity and tweak it to make himself look good
Linde Barrera says
To BC- As per your 3:58 am of Sep. 25, 2016 to me, you are entitled to your opinion. I do not have a problem with atheists. But let us think about truths vs. myths. One of the foundations of Christianity is to give Glory to God, as no human created itself. Another truth I read here from a JW commenter is that the one true God makes sacrifices for His people while a false god demands sacrifices from those who worship it (erroneously) Stay well.
BC says
BTW Josephus was a Romano Jewish historian of the Jews (full name Flavius Josephus) he wrote many books, but he was writing about 25 years after the appearance of the first gospel. So he was not writing from primary sources. He is often quoted as being ‘proof’ of Jesus’ existence but he is not. Scholars are divided about the authenticity of his brief reference
Demsci says
BC, I gather you are atheist, as I am. But, in short, I do not juxtapose atheism versus all religions.
I have thought deep and hard about what could or should be the cooperating opposition to Islam and, again in short, I juxtapose democratically minded citizens versus Islam only.
gravenimage says
Linde, you are correct that the main role of “Jesus”–really, “Isa”–in Islam is to *kill Christians* in the last days. Few Christians are aware of that.
Linde Barrera says
To TJ- Correction- the word should be “deified Christ” not “defied Christ”. (I know how to spell, it is my Smartphone that changes words I type.)
Tom says
Your not! After the beheading of the priest a several weeks ago and the Pope’s poor response, you are correct.
He had a real chance to re-establish the Catholic church as a global force, and dropped the ball.
I weep for out future.
BC says
There is no dialogue between people when one side dogmatically believes he is right and you are wrong. The Muslims do not want dialogue they want submission. They believe they are ‘god’s people’ doing ‘god’s work’ and the Quran holds all the truth and the only truth. Much like evangelical Christians in fact.
Demsci says
Well, BC, what have you? “Dialogues, debates, discussions”?
Perhaps asking for dialogues is asking for too much, and your arguments make perfect sense. Yes, Muslims want submission and have such a conviction and attitude as you say. And many of them are weak in arguments but ruthless in attitude when powerful enough! We know that.
But with debates I go with the attitude of David Wood, who on Answering Muslims was challenging Craig Considine, a lying, sickening Islam-apologist. Who refused with
the excuse that “hate filled people” (like Wood and Robert Spencer) were “not open for dialogue” or some such lame excuse.
David Wood pointed out that at least with debates, and sometimes with discussions, there is an “audience”. It can be one, two persons, or huge, when the debate is broadcasted. There is such richness in (some) debates, discussions about “Islam (and Democracy)” for audiences I think.
People can hear both sides and think and decide for themselves. Even when I myself am participating with Muslims or Political Corrects myself, as I love to do and do quite often,
and do not get the other side move one inch so to speak, I still get a lot of stimulation to think about the issue.
As the example of Craig Considine shows, however, there generally seems only one side, the counterjihadist side, interested, desirous even, in honest, 2-sided debate, discussion. The Muslim-Political correct side, says David Wood, seems only interested in 1-sided propaganda or apologistics. The other side engages a lot in censorship or in “running” or in haughtily avoiding.
IMO debates about Islam and Democracy, when held honestly, almost invariably give the counterjihadists the advantage, not so much because of their own brilliance or the denseness of their opponents, but because the counterjihadists just have the much better position to defend and promote.
Keys says
Demsci: “the counterjihadists just have the much better position to defend and promote”.
Yes, in part, exactly why I believe Muslim authorities (and even the Koran) require Muslims not to associate with infidels, if possible; and why questioning Islamic teachings is forbidden and may be severely punished.
Therefore, it seems to me Muslims would have to look upon dialogue, not as debate or means of understanding the other, but as a means to proselytize.
gravenimage says
Demsci, I do not believe this pope is asking Christians to engage in “dialogue” with Muslims in order to point out the evil of Islam, but instead just to pander and appease. Certainly, that is all Pope Francis has ever done.
David Wood and Robert Spencer do not pretend that Islam is a “religion of peace” when they debate Muslims.
Mark Swan says
That is correct gravenimage
Kelly says
I heard on Catholic radio today that George Washington U did a survey of Catholics attitudes about Muslims and determined we all need more dialogue. The idea is that when you get to know a different other, you form a connection, see what is positive. In the case of Mohammedens, however, that hope ignores too much reality.
Mark Swan says
You are right we will not be able to connect with anything positive with Muslims.
Muslims being those who have the Quran for a source of morality, know it says they can lie.
Those who have read the Quran, know the intent of Islam is about control, nothing less.
All of its followers, know that they are required to wage Jihad on all those that are not Muslim, plainly written in the Quran.
Muslims can not let up on Jihad until everyone is conquered by Islam.
No one can take Islam lightly; we are talking of a very organized and real centuries
old movement, that has always had its heart set on conquering the world, with real resources, determination, many allies and perceived opportunity now supporting it,
and weak resistance to its efforts.
So even though only a few hundred million admit they support Jihad, ok, now you can go ahead and aknowledge the lying factor, and realize this is a tremendous movement.
We here know Islam and its intent for power makes it an insurgency prepared under the guise of religion for theocratic rule—we realize that subversive exploit of all manner is being unleashed through our free society.
The Islam movement has it’s star leadership—we all know it by its name.
The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in 1928 in Egypt, an organization that established Islam as a modern movement. It was, and remains to this day the ideological heart of all the later Islamic groups.
Firstly, focus – for now –to come to terms with a political left which has totally lost its moral compass and political bearings. Islam has embedded the strategic effort of divide and conquer , and with a working goal, that seeks to meld with certain movements, and beyond that, exchange Islam, in the place of the former left’s territory—that is their hope.
Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood, Hammas, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime do not hide their goal –the re-constituting of democratic societies and their replacement by a sharia-based dictatorial rule. All Muslim Nations support this.
In the mind of Islam, the Democracy way of life, constitutes, rebellion against obedience to Islam, It has to be changed. Total obedience must be to the orders and prohibitions of Islam’s Law. The Islamic belief is that allowing people political and personal freedom amounts to heresy.
Recall, from the Muslim Brotherhood Explanatory Memorandum:
“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means.
The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”
Demsci says
Yes, quite right, Gravenimage, later on I also realized this. And I too much disapprove of the pope’s attitude.
But perhaps even so; The pope does not have the monopoly on dialogue or debate. He may well side with “the other side” and even censor dialogue with counterjihadists.
But I would like it when it could never be said that it were counterjihadists who refused dialogue, debate, discussion. In contrast let us take every opportunity to talk. The most important thing is that THEY, not WE, are the discussion-stoppers, dialogue-avoiders, debate-runners.
It is the audience that counts, not the lying of opponents nor the appeasing of doubtful allies like the pope.
gravenimage says
True, Kelly and Mark–there is an idea that the only reason anyone might fear or dislike something is because they are ignorant of it.
In a few cases this may be somewhat true–that something is only scary or distasteful because it is unfamiliar. This was probably true for many with, say, an aversion to sushi in the early ’80s. But sushi restaurants are now mainstream; one finds sushi fancy restaurants, in buffets along with potato salad and cole slaw, in grade school lunches, in the snack section of 7/11.
Some people still don’t like raw fish–as there are some people who don’t like cole slaw–but it is an ordinary thing, no longer tinged with the antipathy of its first appearance here.
But is a dislike of Islam and wariness of mass Muslim immigration in any way analogous? Of course, it is not.
Islam is a conquering creed bent on the submission of everyone to its oppressive and evil tenets, and pious Muslims are bent on enforcing that submission through violent Jihad. Every sane Infidel has reason to oppose this.
Kelly, my guess is that the George Washington University poll found that Catholics were wary and generally negative about Islam–hence the demand for more “dialogue” to shame them into changing their stance.
gravenimage says
Demsci wrote:
Yes, quite right, Gravenimage, later on I also realized this. And I too much disapprove of the pope’s attitude.
But perhaps even so; The pope does not have the monopoly on dialogue or debate. He may well side with “the other side” and even censor dialogue with counterjihadists.
…………………………..
This is true, Demsci. It think genuine debate *is* extremely important, and I hope I did not give the impression that I do not.
The most important aspect of this, I believe, is to give those in the audience a real sense of the arguments on both sides–generally, when challenged, apologia and whitewash for Islam is easily exposed for what it is.
More:
But I would like it when it could never be said that it were counterjihadists who refused dialogue, debate, discussion. In contrast let us take every opportunity to talk. The most important thing is that THEY, not WE, are the discussion-stoppers, dialogue-avoiders, debate-runners.
…………………………..
*Exactly*, Demsci. Robert Spencer never turns down an opportunity to debate–but apologists for Islam often *do*. I can’t count how many Taqiyya artists have bowed out of debates with Robert Spencer and other Anti-Jihadists. They know that their only chance is when they are unchallenged, and can sling their bs in an echo chamber.
More:
It is the audience that counts, not the lying of opponents nor the appeasing of doubtful allies like the pope.
…………………………..
*Very* true. If Muslim apologists take a new look at their Taqiyya as a result of debating with Anti-Jihadists, well and good–it *could* happen–David Wood has said that he has reached some Muslims in just this manner.
But as you note, the main focus should not be Muslim apologists, but the Infidel audience who can witness the strength of the arguments–or the obfuscation, whitewash, and deflection on the part of the apologists–and make up their own minds. For many, this may be the first time they have seen such Taqiyya challenged.
And this issue could not be more timely–here is an article posted just today on Jihad Watch:
“David Wood Video: The Purpose of Debating Islam and Jihad: A Reply to Dr. Craig Considine”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/david-wood-video-the-purpose-of-debating-islam-and-jihad-a-reply-to-dr-craig-considine
This video from David Wood is pithy and cogent on the issue.
I could not support the sort of dialogue called for here more.
Demsci says
Thank you so much dear Gravenimage, with whom I share so much in opinion, for that marvellous answer, quite a feast to read. And I regard you and Wellington as such stars, mainstays, knowledgeable and rational people, here (not to diminish the role of others).
gravenimage says
Thank you so much, Demsci. I very much agree with you about the erudite Wellington, as well.
Mark Swan says
If Islam ever allowed an open, free, and thorough debate, one where the whole world could watch, it would be reduced to what it is, and that would not be acceptable to Muslims.
Their Most intelligent Imams can not defend Islam in an open, free and thorough debate, nor would they ever agree to such an undertaking. Considering the fact that open, free and thorough discussion would reveal their very real stealth subversion of democratic society, with intent to replace it with Sharia. Uncovering the existence of Islam’s embedding process would mean exposing its extent, and real purpose.
Heck, we can not even bring up the need for such a debate on Islam in any
mass media forum, now, can we?
The general population, must be made aware of Islam and its intent, now.
Yes this widely viewed debate may just seem to be a pipe dream, for right now,
at least.
Likely, some major event could reduce their special people status, which could
givethe general public opportunity to see a challenge for such a widely viewed
debate on Islam.
We may find, then , action produces result, so who is ready to do so when this
opportunity presents itself, who ever it is, must be prepared.
Only one name comes to mind.
Time will tell, as they say.
gravenimage says
True, Mark. But Islam has never had to debate in a free and open format. It has always employed threat and force.
Pious Muslims do not believe that Islam should have to compete in any open marketplace of ideas. That–besides the ugly and irrational nature of Islam itself–is why Muslims are so bad at debate.
They resent being asked to engage in it in the first place, and if Islam–God forbid!–ever gains enough power in the West, they will not have to.
Mark Swan says
They may look back at an opportunity to back down, with wishful thought, yet it
will be that pushing the advantage they enjoy now, was their worst move.
The worm will turn soon enough, and events will find them caught up in them,
just like the non-Muslim, and the special people status will not be afforded anymore.
Of course they will not, but they should return to Muslim countries, while they can.
That is my best guess.
DINA says
YES I understand what you mean.. Why would Christians been over backwards with moslems when they behead Christians.. our Pope is a Pope who thinks HE IS King, HE IS telling us how to live.. Being friends with a guy who worships the Moon God.. not our God..
Bonnie Loranger says
You are not wrong. Because of his insanity I quit the Catholic church. You cannot dialogue or make peace with Muslims
Missy says
Francis needs to be educated about the islamic devilish cult before he opens his mouth
Roy C says
Linde – You’re not wrong so much as you are missing the real problem with this man. He is the same hard core leftist as is Barak Hussein Obama and most of the democratic party. The Catholic church is all but dead throughout Europe and most of America and it’s no mystery why he was selected from Argentina which is rapidly devolving to 3rd world status under the lunatic left government. The 3rd world, the last outpost for a dying religion is run almost exclusively by leftist true believers which easily explains their 3rd world status. Why the far left is so tolerant and protective toward the hideous religion that openly advocates murder of Jews, Christians, and other infidels is another question that I find difficult to explain or even to understand. It just is.
Linde Barrera says
To Roy C- As per your 7:33 pm comment of Sep. 25, 2016 to me, I knew that Pope Frankie was a Jesuit, a Marxist and an Islam apologist. I just did not say those facts as eloquently as you. And I held back for another reason: I am not Catholic, I am Lutheran. And I am really pissed off that Lutheran churches are helping to settle Muslim refugees in America, for you guessed it— money from the US fedreal government. So I should have enumerated this pope’s issues but just decided to call him “looser” which I think definitely applies, no matter what other names he could rightfully be called!
Tony46 says
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces”
Matthew 7:6
Allan says
That verse was not approved by liberation theology.
JMB says
We will also hear apologists for Islamic migration (mis)quote Gal 3:28; “We are all one in Christ…” But Muslims and many other immigrants we are forced to accept are “NOT in Christ”.
In fact some Biblical scholars suggest that Islam IS the anti-Christ.
But if the Pope wishes to establish dialogue with Islam the first condition should be an immediate and total cessation of Islamic persecution of Christians and Jews worldwide, effective immediately.
And then, there is another minor problem, is there any spokesman for Islam on a world wide basis? No because they are all divided into mutually hostile sects currently throwing bombs at each other.
John says
I tweeted to the pope @pontifex to express my displeasure.
It can’t be repeated here.
Angemon says
Yes, we all remember how David talked things over with Goliath, or Samson made peace with the Philistines… /sarc. off
JMB says
But this was ancient history that took place in terrible times and God’s chosen people were defending themselves presumably with Gods blessing.. Christianity is the New Covenant.
But coming back to our times. The nominally Christian West and Israel, and christian minorities in nations such as Syria and Egypt are under attack from Islam. But note;
1, The silence from the Pope is deafening and his proposed dialogue will probably be ineffective, that is if it ever gets off the ground.
2, In Egypt and Syria, President Obama sides with the Islamists.
3, We refuse to acknowledge that Islam is threatening us. Our political leaders and military should be taking real decisive action that goes well beyond the futile attempt to establish a democracy in Afghanistan, pretending that Iran will not develop nukes and constant apologies and denial every time there is an Islamic terror attack.
4, We then have the Trojan Horse of refugees and Islamic immigration. Just like Cassandra of old warned of the danger of that horse, no one would listen. The same is happening at this very moment. JW warns of the danger of Islam, but again, no one will listen.
Arthur says
Any reading of the Old Testament should dispel the myth that the God of the Jews (and Christians) is a pacifist that views all souls equally (believers and not). A father wants his children to get along peacefully, but this does not mean he expects them to be defenseless against each other.
Stephanie says
‘… MORE IMPORTANT as politic, national(Ugh!, Yuck!), or religious_differences™ is the community™’
@UnsereKirche No. 39
‘IMpure’ VS ‘pure’ 8:37, 55; 98:6-7
religious_differences™,
killer, ‘… kill them (ex-Muslims) wherever you find them’ quran.com/4/89
https://twitter.com/schnellmann_org/status/779798864396161025
Champ says
Hey Dope, when you’re done rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims then why don’t you head on over to the cemetery and dance on the graves of the deceased. Yeah, I thought you’d like that. Jerk.
Mirren10 says
Your comment, Champ, admirably sums up what I felt when I read this.
What utter **grotesquerie**, to say such a thing in the face of the *victims* of jihad. This Pope *is* grotesque, but I didn’t think even he would be capable of such a barefaced command to embrace dhimmitude. Never underestimate the gall of the self-righteous leftard scum.
gravenimage says
Yes, Champ and Mirren–that he is saying this *to the victims of Jihad*–as if they or their dead loved ones would not have been run down if only they had “dialogued” with the Jihad murderer–is just grotesque.
Mark Swan says
Absolutely
Karen says
“struck blindly at all, without taking into account their origins or religion”.
No only does he essentially blame the victim, he denies that it was Islamic terror directed at non-Muslims.
gravenimage says
Very true, Karen. The Jihadist knew his victims were apt to be Infidels, and he targeted them on just this basis.
Karen says
gravenimage, I think it’s safe to say that this pope is no Pious XII.
gravenimage says
Very true, Karen.
TC says
At times, I could understand some conciliatory language from the Vatican; but if this report is so, as usual, way over the top from Pope Francis. Sad.
TheOldOligarch says
Pope Dhimmi I up to his usual shenanigans.
Lesley says
Talk is cheap and pointless when there is no acknowledgement from this Pope about the hatefulness inherent in the texts of Islam.
I’m not Catholic, but from the outside this Pope looks harmful to the Church, delusional, and ridiculous.
EYESOPEN says
He is.
Westman says
If one speaks kindly to the bully who demands his lunch money, and even offers it up in the future, the bullying will stop, right? This Pope didn’t learn much while playing in the sandbox.
Mark Swan says
You got that right
Paul says
I respect Anjem Choudary more than this corrupt dhimmi.
Why? Because as much as I dislike the former, at least he is
honest and alerts people to the genuine nature of his ungodly
cult, whereas the fraud in the Vatican wants to keep people
sedated. With friends like this coffin dodger who needs enemies?
Allan says
When during the history of the Roman church has it not been the job of that church’s sorcerers to keep their sheep sedated?
It’s by the way that Choudary has some of my respect, too. The Pope, on the other hand, is so sentimental and nitwitted that he deserves neither liberty nor security nor respect. No doubt there are millions of Christians in N. America who feel this way about their leaders. Muhammad will see that and seek to exploit the opportunity for dawah. I would expect that Mo will enjoy much success some day when people decide that it’s better to be the wolf than the lamb. And Islam provides plenty of license for slaughtering leftist kuffar, too.
It isn’t very difficult to figure how Mo will approach conservatives. They are well known for esteeming prayer, duty to parents, and obedience, and they will find plenty of these in hadith such as Sahih Bukhari, Book 52, Number 41. Conservatives will yield to persuasuve arguments that Islam can terminate secular humanism, relativism, welfare statism, and more. They are cognitively unprepared to deal with Islam’s sophistries which are often the very same used by cons on their own children, and they are hostile to knowledge (physics, astronomy, logic) which contradicts Islam.
I can hear the slam dunk already.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php
Paul says
Let’s hope you’re wrong about conservatives. We shall see.
As for the Dope, when Mohammedans storm the Vatican “First
Constantinople, then Rome…”, he’ll get an opportunity to exercise
some of this tolerance and forgiveness he loves to pontificate about.
There are so many people now in the West who have experienced
this cult first hand and who try to warn others, only for such words
to fall on deaf ears which belong to those who clearly always know
better. These arrogant idiots are the true “white” or “Western supremacists”.
gravenimage says
Anjem Choudary is not really more “honest” than Taqiyya-spewing Muslims; he is just more emboldened.
There is no Taqiyya in the Islamic State, because there does not need to be.
Demsci says
Yeah, Chaudhary is more straightforward, and yes, emboldened.
It made me wonder: How proud can Muslims be of their religion, with all this taqiyya, deceipt, dissimulation, denial, debate-avoiding going on.
Only Muslims like Chaudhary and the ISIS-fighters, who openly oppose Kuffars and their systems, Tenets, laws and sensibilities, could be really proud of Islam I think.
Because when a Muslim touts that he/ she is proud of “peaceful Islam”, he/ she is risking a powerful refutation of that sort of “fabricated Islam”: It makes it difficult to be at once an honest, open, proud Muslim who at the same time really is perfectly peaceful and compatible with Western society.
Because also such a Muslim at the very least would be aware of the very unclear, Multi-interpretable nature of Islam; Quran-Hadiths-Sira. Something that also makes it hard to be really PROUD of Islam, as opposed to merely loyal, accustomed to Islam.
gravenimage says
Demsci wrote:
Yeah, Chaudhary is more straightforward, and yes, emboldened.
It made me wonder: How proud can Muslims be of their religion, with all this taqiyya, deceipt, dissimulation, denial, debate-avoiding going on.
……………………….
Dear Demsci, I don’t think Muslims think in those terms at all.
You or I or any other rational Infidel might wonder how strong an argument really is if those holding it have to lie, whitewash, and obfuscate–but I think most pious Mohammedans simply see Taquiyya and other forms of Islamic lying simply as a tool used to spread Islam.
And anything that spreads Islam–stealth Jihad, lies, violent Jihad terrorism–is therefore a ‘good’ thing.
Mockingjay says
This talk about forgiveness makes really me sick.
Even though I am of Christian heritage myself, I do not feel bound by Jesus’ “commandment” to forgive all that “trespass against you”.
In my opinion, forgiving those that do NOT repent is a very dangerous, irrational and ultimately self-destructive way of behaviour, – as it can make you BLIND to the evil you are supposed to have forgiven – and ESPECIALLY in this case I find the demand of Pope Francis to do so UTTERLY disgusting.
Mockingjay says
…makes me REALLY sick.
somehistory says
God does not forgive those who are not repentant. He doesn’t expect us to either. He does expect us to forgive those who *sin* against us or *trespass* against us if they say they are sorry, just as we want to be forgiven when we feel sorry for something we did or said.
The people who were injured, and the families of the dead, are not required by God or Christ to forgive those who did the evil to them. Those evil ones are not repentant, but glad they committed the murders.
Champ says
“God does not forgive those who are not repentant.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excellent point, Somehistory!
Charli Main says
yes, I believe that repentance is pivotal to forgiveness. I do not believe that we are expected to forgive those that are hell bent ( literally ) on killing us, raping our wives and sodomising our children.
Mockingjay says
“God does not forgive those who are not repentant. He doesn’t expect us to either.”
Thanks, Somehistory, I’m so glad and relieved to hear that – from someone who I assume to be a lot more knowledgable about the Christian faith than I myself am –
– Unfortunately, forgiving those who show not only NO repentance whatsoever, but even REVEL in their alliance with evil, does seem to be Pope Francis’ take on the Christian faith, and I find his words APALLINGLY insensitive towards these terror victims who suffered unimaginable losses.
These people have suffered enough already. They need not be burdened additionally by a demand to forgive, a demand that I am sure, most of them will not be able to meet – adding a sense of “spiritual inadequacy” to their already immense suffering.
somehistory says
You are very welcome, Mockingjay. The thing that the pope is doing is basically what Jesus said the religious leaders of His day (Matthew 23 and Luke 11.) were doing in “binding up heavy loads for others that they themselves were not willing to bear” ” not even to lift their little finger”
The pope is making a huge record for which he will have to answer before God’s Throne of Judgement. I do hope the victims of the terrorists will ignore him. If I suffered such as they did, and he said the same to me, I would answer to him as Jesus answered the religious leaders in John 8:44.
gravenimage says
Exactly–I think this is true in both the religious and the secular sense–many things can be forgiven if the perpetrator genuinely regrets having done them and does what he can to atone for having done them–especially with an open repudiation of the acts.
But forgiveness without repentance is essentially just giving the perpetrator license to continue whatever evil he is bent on committing.
Mirren10 says
What you say, somehistory, makes sense to me, as does mockingjay’s comment, and graven’s.
But how do you then explain Luke 23:34 ? Luke doesn’t say the soldiers *repented* their mockery and cruelty, but Christ asks that they be forgiven anyway.
gravenimage says
Well, this true, Mirren. This passage has generally been interpreted as meaning that the mockers at the crucifixion didn’t grasp the *enormity* of the evil they were doing (of course, their actions were sickeningly cruel whether Jesus had been the Son of God or just a gentle but fanciful teacher).
I *hardly* claim to speak for Jesus here, but I suppose one might–for instance–forgive the Pope for his not grasping how perverse he is being here, despite his not having repented of his stupidity–because he is not actually intending to enable evil by his actions.
But forgiving the Jihadists themselves–whose intent is deliberate savagery–is a much more troubling idea.
Mark Swan says
I hope I make it better and not worse for You, so here goes, the way I see it.
God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, that is for sure.
Now, He did ask for mercy on the soldiers, and all the others who had Him brutally
beat and were murdering Him. This showed what true love he did have for all humans and His interest in protecting as many as would let Him. Did any repent, it does not say, repenting which does not just mean being sorry for wrong behavior, but the making of an about face, truly wanting and trying to correct that behavior. When we here words indicating those that sin are in danger, it means continually practicing, wrong behavior when you are fully aware you are. He said forgive them, they do not know what they are doing, this was a monumental event they were participating in, and was predestined by God to take place. This event would have happened had other participants been there instead.
These particular words, should allow a glimpse, into how it works.
Isaiah 1: 2, 12, 15-20
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the Lord has spoken:
“I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;
“When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
Mirren10 says
Thank you, graven, and Mark, for your replies. I’ll think about what you say.
gravenimage says
Thought provoking, Mark–thanks.
By the way, the Centurion at the Crucifixion reportedly *did* repent, and purely because of the unconditional love of Jesus:
“Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.” — Luke 23:47
By later Christian tradition, his name was Longinus, he became a devout Christian, and died as a martyr.
Thanks for your reply, Mirren.
I don’t want to get too off-topic, so will probably leave this here. 🙂
Mark Swan says
This Centurion showed remorse in a comment, in Mark He shows mercy in ending
Christ’s suffering by pushing a spear into Him to finish it. Some say He was the one
who Christ had healed a servant for, others say he went on to believe in Christ. But
in the account Mentioned by Mirren10 we will not see any repentance depicted there,
nor anywhere else in the Bible, of those same soldiers, who were being extremely
cruel and merciless, while Christ asked God for mercy for them.
Papa Whiskey says
“there is no God of war”
Yes there is — and he is called “Allah.”
EYESOPEN says
Spot-on Papa Whiskey!
JAR says
Good call, Papa W.
Now perhaps the Roman Papa should go and learn what this means: “dar al-harb.”
Christians and the Church may forgive, love, and respect others. Indeed they should, as Jesus often commands.
The State, in contrast, is God’s minister to carry out the sword (Romans 13). And Christians, as part of their respective States, are doing good work in the capacity of defending the State and their fellow countrymen (and any civilized society) against the Mohammedan hordes.
To their detriment, the popes are perpetually confusing these two [churchly & secular] realms.
Kepha says
There is a God of War–YHWH of Hosts, See Psalm 68.
My disappointment in this Pope is that he did not call for a truly loving witness to Muslims. When I was a non-traditional grad student, I had some dialogue with Bangladeshi and Malaysian colleagues, but I made it a point to mention the centrality of Christ’s atoning work on the cross and his true resurrection from the dead.
Wellington says
But of course, Kepha, per Islam, Sura 4: 157-159, Jesus wasn’t crucified, he was not killed but raised into heaven by Allah, etc., so I would think talking about Christ’s atoning work on the cross can’t mean anything to a Muslim unless he becomes an ex-Muslim.
More expansively, I can’t understand how any informed (“informed” is the key word here) Christian can have any respect for Islam since Islam denies a fundamental event in the Christian scope of things———the Crucifixion (also the Resurrection and the Trinity). Additionally, the crap about Jesus coming back at the end of the world and throwing Christians into Hell for deifying Him should also insure a total disrespect for this religion by Christians, never mind the 164 verses in the Koran calling for war to be made upon unbelievers “until all religion is with Allah” {Sura 8:39} and the fact that it is difficult to find a single page of the Koran that doesn’t ooze hatred towards non-Muslims. Any Christian who says they respect Islam should have his head examined.
Christians should call Muslims what they used to call them——-infidels. Just sayin’. Hope you and your family are doing well.
Mark Swan says
Very True Wellington
Kepha says
Wellington, I have respect for Islam the same way that I have respect for Daoism, Buddhism, Mormonism, and evolutionary materialism, and a lot of others–I recognize that these beliefs structure people’s lives, even if I disagree with them by everything I regard as holy.
Of course an informed Christian cannot recognize Muhammad as a prophet or the Qur’an as holy. Clearly, they deny central tenets of the biblical Christian faith.
Wellington says
With respect, Kepha, because you are a very sharp individual, I simply don’t see how an informed Christian can have respect for Islam. Islam denigrates Christians officially (e.g., Sura 98:6 which refers to Christians and Jews “as the vilest or creatures”). It is only too ready to subordinate Christians (and others of course) to a Jim Crow kind of system based on belief rather than race whenever and wherever it can.
Quite frankly, Kepha, I simply do not understand how you can say, as you did, that you respect Islam “the same way” that you might a religion like Buddhism, which is subtle, not a menace to liberty, invokes a true Golden Rule for all and which does not officially in its theological blueprint denigrates Christians. Don’t you think that it is not enough simply to write, as you did, that “an informed Christian cannot recognize Muhammad as a prophet or the Qur’an as holy.” I would argue that it should go way beyond “merely” these kinds of objections.
The lawyer in me says it’s rebuttal time for you should you care.
Mirren10 says
Kepha says;
” … I have respect for Islam the same way that I have respect for Daoism, Buddhism, Mormonism, and evolutionary materialism, and a lot of others–I recognize that these beliefs structure people’s lives … ”
There is a *huge* difference between Daoism, Buddhism, Mormonism, evolutionary materialism, and **islam**.
The difference being that none of the examples you give of these belief systems giving structure to people’s lives, results in our deaths at their hands. Neither do any of the belief systems you mention **call for the murder of those who disagree**.
Rather a cogent difference, I think.
gravenimage says
Kepha wrote:
Wellington, I have respect for Islam the same way that I have respect for Daoism, Buddhism, Mormonism, and evolutionary materialism, and a lot of others–I recognize that these beliefs structure people’s lives, even if I disagree with them by everything I regard as holy.
…………………………….
*Really*, Kepha? I know that as a devout Christian you consider all of these belief systems to be in error–fair enough.
But are Mormons and Daoists and those who believe in evolution–which includes many Christians, by the way, but that is a separate issue–using girls as sex slaves and beheading us in the streets as are pious Muslims?
With respect, there is error, then there is *evil*.
Islam only ‘gives structure’ to people’s lives in the way that Stalinism and National Socialism did–a structure of savagery set up to victimize the vulnerable. It would be less harmful to lack structure at all.
Mirren10 says
”Islam only ‘gives structure’ to people’s lives in the way that Stalinism and National Socialism did–a structure of savagery set up to victimize the vulnerable. It would be less harmful to lack structure at all.”
Bullseye !
gravenimage says
Good posts, Wellington and Mirren.
Mark Swan says
Absolutely and good post Graven as well.
Mark Swan says
Dignity does not come in possessing honors, but in deserving them. ~ Aristotle
Mark Swan says
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. (Revelation 19:11)
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. (Revelation 19:14)
DFD says
Hi MArk,
I replied to your post about Roosevelt here:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/09/robert-spencer-in-pj-media-aid-and-comfort-clinton-suggests-trump-committed-treason/comment-page-1#comment-1526062
Mark Swan says
The above, was just intended to compliment Kepha’s comment above, about a God of war.
Mark Swan says
Yes DFD I did read what You wrote, thanks. What T.R. was pointing out in Cpt. 1
there is how much the German contribution should mean to our whole world.
Kay says
Kepha, regarding your post at 11:11 pm 9/24:
Exactly. The Pope really needs to give a clear verbal evangelical message in order to strengthen Christians and let Mohammedens hear the truth.
The mousy implication that all of us worship a God of mercy harms Christians and Muslims alike.
Champ says
“respect” defined …
re·spect
noun
1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have ZERO “respect” for islam. It’s *wholly* evil and does not deserve anyone’s respect on any level. I shocked you stated that Kepha.
somehistory says
Respect is earned. Respect can be given just because the person is a human. Should the person *command* respect by their actions, words, works, way of living, etc.,they receive greater respect, hence, earning more than the minimum.
A person may *demand* respect and lose what is naturally given due just because he is a person.
But, a teaching, idea, etc. does not *naturally* get respect and it must be earned by the results of the teaching, the idea, etc.
islam has done nothing to earn even the smallest iota of respect. It has earned disdain and condemnation, derision, contempt, and scorn.
Quoting Aretha: R e s p e c t, find out what it means to me.
islam gets none, deserves none, and when it is gone, the universe will be better off and will rejoice.
Champ says
Somehistory, I completely agree …*great* comment!
Mirren10 says
Spot on, somehistory !
Demsci says
Thanks somehistory, for, well, that profound, rational approach about respect, for humans and, say, ideologies, religions. I am filing that in my memory.
somehistory says
The Bible says: “The wise things of the world are foolishness with God.”
This guy, who carries much responsibility due to his claims of divine authority, thinks he is wise, but what he says is plain foolishness.
It is not possible to have a *sincere* dialogue with a moslin unless they admitted to the fact that they sincerely wish to kill the rest of us, esp Christians and Jews. Otherwise, it is a sincere person having a dialogue with a liar who sees no obligation to tell the truth.
Demsci says
You then say no to attempting a dialogue. With good, valid arguments, I might add, Somehistory.
But …. spare yourself the trouble in protesting; as you say, the other side, the Muslims, the political corrects, the dictators and their cronies, they are not genuinely interested either.
And we are not so naive anymore as to buy their narrative that they do desire honest dialogue.
Then … knowing this, I would say, to us Democratic Citizens; talk all you want, all you can, what is the harm??? Talking, with free speech is one of THE strong points of our societies. Invariably the other side, described above, will try to cut it short, to subvert it, avoid it, shield their populations from it. It is the other side who will cause short or non-existent honest dialogues, it should not be us.
There are bound to be audiences, some grains of arguments are bound to come to fruition. And there is nothing wrong with both threathening Muslims with non-violent repercussions to their attitudes and promising them rewards for leaving Islam.
In a dialogue many arguments are allowed and we have so many good ones.
Jaladhi says
What dialogue and that too a sincere dialogue? Since when Muslims are sincere about having any dialogue. This should be directed to Muslims and not towards anybody else! Muslim dialogue is convert or kill and nothing in between!!
JMB says
Islam allows it followers to lie in the defence of their faith. No a good starting point for any dialogue.
Demsci says
Oh, we know they lie. But what they really hate is holding them accountable for what they say. And also they hate it when you demand an honest, 2-way discussion, debate, dialogue. with a moderators.
I am a bit exaggerating now, but from what i’ve seen of honest debates, with independent moderators, invariably the atheist-christian side makes mincemeat of the Muslim or political correct side. Robert Spencer gives very good examples of this too.
Barry says
I now have renounced my faith not in God but in the Catholic Church. This Pope is not only naive bordering on the brink of insanity but to me he is an instrument of the Devil. A person would have to be blind not to realize there is a world wide political agenda promoting the Islamic ideology. All throughout history there has been invasions of foreign entities but this is the first I know of that the enemy has actually been invited in with the blessing of the Pope and the political leaders of the time.
Kepha says
Barry: You owe it to yourself (and God) to acquaint yourself with the Bible, especially with what it says about the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is by becoming man and dwelling among us that God gave his final and complete revelation of himself to us; and where the differences between the Christian God and Islamic god are most manifest. I am sure you will find some Evangelical Protestant churches and fellowships that share your concerns about Jihad.
Linde Barrera says
To Barry- Your 9:29 pm, Sep. 24, 2016 comment about Pope Frankie (my moniker for him) was really on point. And this week I will write him a brief letter and use some of your sentences, but I will sign my own name. I am not making any money off your creative expressions. Thank you Barry and keep being astute.
Mirren10 says
Barry says;
”I now have renounced my faith not in God but in the Catholic Church.”
I’m not a Christian myself, far less a Catholic, but I think your statement somewhat illogical. If you are convinced of the truths of the Catholic Church, the fact that it is led, for the moment, by a senile old leftard dotard, surely doesn’t obviate those truths ?
After all, the Catholic Church has had some pretty horrendous pontiffs, eg the Borgias, and some stupid, weak and vacillating ones, such as Clement VII, ( who incidentally was the catalyst for the Church of England) but has nevertheless managed to survive. Also, of course, it has had some admirable and intelligent ones. Popes are merely human, like the rest of us. To ditch your Church, because of this insensitive and stupid old man, seems to me to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
gravenimage says
And the pontiff just previous to this one–Pope Benedict–is actually quite savvy about the threat of Islam.
Cheryl S says
The Pope is out of his freaking gourd! He’s sociopathic and enormously dangerous.
Maybe the Pope, who is obviously a globalist & socialist anyway, has become a muslim. That’s the only thing that makes sense of his bizarre behavior.
August West says
Papal Magisterium (Papal Delirium) in action.
He has exposed himself as nothing more than a pathetic old fool. It is really that simple.
Dov Berrol says
Indeed, Mohammedans have never had sincere and honest dialogue with who they deem infidels. It’s all a taquiya fraud in order to further their ethnic cleansing of the kuffar from the planet. More than 30 years before the invention of the term “the Palestinians”, Muslims used mob violence and brutal bullying of the Jewish residents of Hebron. See this recent article remembering the Hebron massacre of 1929:
http://www.jpost.com/Metro/Remembering-the-1929-Hebron-massacre-464460
Mark A says
I’m Catholic, but I’m dismayed every time I hear Pope Francis calling for interfaith dialogue with Islam.
Islam seems to see this as a one way street leading to dhimmi status for non-Muslims.
ISIS has clearly stated its intention of conquering Rome. Didn’t Mohammed himself say that Constantinople would be conquered first before attention was turned to Rome. (Robert correct me if I’m wrong on that)
All the Asian Christian churches mentioned in the Bible are now in Islamic countries after their former Christian rulers and population were conquered by Muslims.
When will Pope Francis wake up and see Islam’s end game. All he has to do is read the Koran, where it is spelled out very clearly.
Reading Sura 9 of the Koran should be enough for any non-Muslim to see what Islam really thinks of “inter-faith dialogue.”
Missy says
Does Francis know that the kuran denies that Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead… making Christianity a meaningless belief. Who else would not want Christ redeem His people except satan. Is that acceptable for Frances.
Infidel from Down Under says
If members of my family were killed or maimed in Nice I can assure I would be giving muslims plenty of dialogue and I would not be holding back
Jack Holan says
The expression of dialog by the Pope is a misnomer Dialog involves give and take by two sides to reach some type of commonality and acceptance. The Pope and Vatican listen and understand even though Islam is Antithetical to the teachings of his Church. The Muftis, Imams make no changes to their mission to convert or miser ever infidel. The believe that Political Islam is the Core of their beliefs and Sharia is their one and only system of Justice. Is Pope Francis secure in his cognitive faculties or daft. What basis of optimism does this Disneyland Character have to declare such
Pope Francistelling the victims of the Nice Terror attack that Nationality, Culture and Religion weren’t factors is the epitome of an insult that rips the heart from each survivor causing the dead to spin in their graves
Pope Francis history will inscribe your into the tablet as the Pope who betrayed Christianity, the Caholic Churc and Catholics. YOU ARE THE GREAT DECEIVER AKIN TO SATAN and I’m not a Christian and can see this fact
Judy says
I saw a photograph of five priests and two cardinals standing behind Hitler and they were saluting him with their right arms and hands extended in the Hiel Hitler stance. This happened the day after the Vatican invested in Hitler’s declaration speech about riding the world of Jews. It truly gave me goose bumps.
Jay Boo says
You worship Satan to lie the way you do.
Vlad says
Jay, you got shit for brains.
My Catholic Priest told me verbatim: “It was OK for the Nazis to do what they did to the Jews, BECAUSE THEY KILLED OUR LORD”.
Judy, I salute you.
Mirren10 says
Jay Boo says;
”You worship Satan to lie the way you do.”
On the contrary, Judy is quite correct, the photograph in question is the twenty-ninth, as one scrolls down. (Hitler, however, is not shown, although Goebbels is.)
http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
It would be very foolish to deny there was, and is, a great deal of anti-Semitism in the Catholic Church, or to deny there were many Cardinals, priests et al, who sympathised with the Nazi Regime.
Nevertheless, there were of course, *many* in the Catholic priesthood who deplored Nazism, and who, in many cases, risked their lives to save them. Also of course, Pope Pius, who was instrumental in saving thousands.
Champ says
Mirren10, thank you for your spot on comment!
Charli Main says
@M10
“It would be very foolish to deny there was, and is, a great deal of anti-Semitism in the Catholic Church, or to deny there were many Cardinals, priests et al, who sympathised with the Nazi Regime.”
Absolutely correct. In the run up to and during WW11 elements of the Vatican hierarchy were fanatically pro Nazi and supported their anti Semitic activities. To suggest otherwise is COMPLETE NONSENCE.
Many Vatican officials were directly responsible for the escape of thousands of Nazis to South America, including Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele. These Nazi escape routes were code named RATLINES.
One of the best books on the complicity of certain elements in the Vatican in all this is “Nazis on the Run: How Hitler´s henchmen fled Europe” by Gerald Steinacher, a research fellow from Harward University.
I wonder just how these Vatican Nazi sympathisers were able to work right under the nose of Pope Pius and all the other righteous Catholics who protected the Jews.
Mark Swan says
Way to hustle Mirren10, She took a pretty bad beating on Her opinions earlier here.
Wellington says
Your Catholic priest, Vlad, told you, verbatim no less, that, “It was OK for the Nazis to do what they did to the Jews……”
Either you’re a liar, Vlad, which quite frankly I think the most likely “option,” or you misunderstood the Catholic priest you referenced (btw, exactly where did this Catholic priest reside?), or you are correct (very dubious here that you are but it is theoretically possible) that such a Catholic priest asserted what you said he did. If this last possibility is the “reality,” then said Catholic priest would be completely out of sync with official Church policy since the Catholic Church has, going way back into the Middle Ages, maintained that the Jews and Romans who were involved in the crucifixion of Christ represented all of mankind and not themselves in particular. Yes, official Church policy has been, for ages, that Everyman crucified Christ, not “merely” the Jews and the Romans.
But you know this already. Sure you do. Yeah, right.
Hope you comprehend all this——-but, frankly, I don’t think you do. And, btw, I am completely non-religious but truth must be pursued ruthlessly and relentlessly, hence my doubting what you have averred.
Your turn to rebut me. Waiting for the counter-argument. And why, I might ask, someone taking the moniker of “Vlad” here at JW, such moniker indicating a Christian Orthodox personage, would have had a Catholic priest teach him and say what you said he said in the first place. Oh yeah, your turn.
I need details, Vlad. Big time.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Mirren. The Catholic Church–like the Lutheran Church and many other religious and secular groups, was very much a mixed bag when it came to moral response to the horror of the Holocaust.
Mark Swan says
Yep political intrigue is a smelly can of worms, if standing to close.
heidi says
Judy, there certainly are the ” boo”-boo hoo’s and “wellington” boots that seem enjoy throwing around their slurs, insults, and ad hominem attacks directed at others on this site. Apparently their comically inflated egos make them feel entitled to silence criticism or opposing thought, reminds me a lot of the islamists actually. Anyway, thanks for refusing to be silenced by the bullying of anyone of any “religion”.
gravenimage says
Heidi, replying to the comments of other is *not* silencing those opinions.
The way free speech works is that people may express their opinions, and others may agree wholeheartedly, agree in part, or entirely disagree.
It is mistaken to believe that one is having one’s rights curtailed if someone else is free to state a differing opinion.
Wellington says
Judy, heidi, is profoundly ignorant and I called her out on it. She’s also looney, as demonstrated by her statement in her 11:05 P.M. post of September 24th where she stated that “Catholicism is Babylonian Witchcraft” and made the claim that the Pope claims he is God. Additionally, she made statements that were simply straight-out false, an example being that the Catholic Church aided and supported the Nazis and thus was responsible for the Holocaust.
Such a person as Judy, who traffics in lies and looney-tune assessments, deserves to be insulted. And at no point, as you alleged, was I trying to silence criticism. I did no such thing. I only counter-punched hard rhetorically. Huge difference which you can’t discern.
Wellington says
All right, I will have to respond to you again, Judy, loathe as I am to do so, since you are a major distorter of the truth.
If one reads Hitler’s Table Talk, such a person will realize that Hitler despised ALL of Christianity. He knew that he should not take on the Catholic Church and Protestant sects until the war he started would provide victory for the Aryan race (which, thankfully, never happened). Thereafter, it was Hitler’s intention to get rid of Christianity, all of it, once and for all in the new thousand year Reich.
I provide you direct and irrefutable evidence that Hitler loathed ALL of Christianity. From the Table Talk, p. 389, as quoted by Allan Bullock in his 1952 magisterial biography of Hitler, still considered by scholars aplenty to this day as the finest biography of Hitler in any language: “Taken to its logical extreme,” Hitler opined, “Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.” Per Bullock, still p. 389, “…..once the war was over, he {Hitler} promised, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches.” More, and this is Hitler directly quoted speaking in February of 1942: “The evil that is gnawing our vitals is our priests of both creeds” (i.e., Catholic and Protestant alike).
If you don’t think that Pius XII and the vast majority of the Catholic hierarchy at this time didn’t realize all this about Hitler and his heinous Nazi creed, then agenda is your prerogative and not the truth. But I suspected agenda from you from the outset and so I am not surprised.
Thus, the idea that Catholics aplenty aided and abetted Hitler is simply false. There were, of course, individual Catholic clergy who betrayed their faith by endorsing Hitler more or less (ditto for some Protestant clergy), but they were the distinct minority and were DIRECTLY in opposition to what Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII had to say about Nazism (e.g., Mit Brennender Sorge).
Learn all this. Ah, but you won’t, now will you?
I hate calumny, for instance by way of citing a fact here and there to prove a “truth” while a thousand examples could be provided to disprove said “truth.” As a recent example, there was some BYU physics professor who alleged, per physics, that 9/11 was an inside job, but untold numbers of his colleagues refuted him, though loons will reference the one or two exceptions, as opposed to the other 99%, to substantiate their horrid and inaccurate point. Sadly, this has always been the case where truth is concerned and almost certainly always will be.
Hitler was only too prepared to use Christianity to his advantage until he could get rid of it. Thus, as an example, the celebration of Christmas during the 12-year Reich, replete with swastikas atop Christmas trees.
Learn, Judy, and take your anti-Catholic bias and, metaphorically speaking, throw it in the hopper. But you won’t.
gravenimage says
Fine post, Wellington.
Mark Swan says
Found in Adolf Hitler’s Speech when Declaring War Against the United States.
You know my determination in such a struggle to be deterred by nothing, to break every resistance which must be broken.
I will assure my enemies that neither force of arms nor time nor any internal doubts, can make us waver in the performance of our duty.
But anybody who tries to evade this duty has no claim to be regarded in our midst as a fellow German.
Just as we were unmercifully hard in our struggle for power we shall be unmercifully hard in the struggle to maintain our nation.
Immaterial under what camouflage he tries to disturb this German Front, to undermine the resistance of our people, to weaken the authority of the regime, to sabotage the achievements of the Home Front, he shall die for it!
The above was taken from the last two paragraphs of His speech.
I think this should be a word to the wise that “anyone” trying to interfere would pay.
Kolga says
OXYMORON =
Sincere dialogue with Muslims.
Dom107 says
If we stopped believing in all this hogwash about gods, devils, popes and preachers.
“holy books, places ,wars and prophets” and used our own intelligence we could stop all this destruction of life and property.
It is not by chance that religious flourishes in those parts of the world with poor education and poverty and where medievalism is still the order of the day.
We have to be very careful and aware that in advanced countries like ours with tolerant life philosophies are vulnerable to those with aggressive attitudes based on religions originating in primitive,ignorant,and tribal societies who nonetheless can get their hands on weapons of mass destruction and can infiltrate our societies through unregulated mass immigration.It is now necessary to be less tolerant to protect ourselves from being dragged back to instability and destructiveness so characteristic of Islamic societies.Are you listening Pope Francis, and the foolish governments of Germany,Sweden,France,Italy and others who have and will bring suffering and humiliation to their own people through their naivety and lust for cheap labour, oil and arms sales.
Vlad says
Exactly right, DOM.
But alas, most so-called “humans” need a crutch to stand, even if this crutch is based on stupidity, ignorance, falsehood, straight out lies.
Thinking is one of the most difficult endeavours that humans do, clear thinking is ever so more difficult, that’s why so few of us do it, even less excel in it.
Nevertheless, you will be condemned by the “lower ranks” 🙂 for your remarks, for it is written in the unholy bible (or the fucking unholy koran) that God or Allah loves us if we do what God or Allah wants. Why the fuck can’t God or Allah do their shit themselves?
Mirren10 says
Dom107 says;
”If we stopped believing in all this hogwash about gods, devils, popes and preachers.
“holy books, places ,wars and prophets” and used our own intelligence we could stop all this destruction of life and property.”
Whom, exactly, do you mean by ‘we’, Dom ? I certainly don’t believe if Western Civilisation en masse declared itself to be atheist, that would result in muslims doing the same, and stopping ”all this destruction of life and property”. On the contrary, it would probably result in even more religiously fired attacks, since mohammedans would no longer even have to pay lip service to the ”People of the Book”.
”It is not by chance that religious flourishes in those parts of the world with poor education and poverty and where medievalism is still the order of the day.”
Again, which parts of the world are you referring to ? I wouldn’t describe Italy, for example, a deeply Catholic country, to be medievalist, nor does Italy produce fanatical Italian Catholic suicide murderers. Of course, what you describe fits the Middle East, Indonesia et al, to a T.
Also, of course, the majority of jihadists are, in fact, well educated, and come from well off backgrounds.
The rest of your post I would agree with.
Mark Swan says
Every Human must be free to believe what ever they want, or else we are no longer Human.
Yes teaching illiterate people is wrong when they are required to take your opinion on things.
Yet all religions have done just that, and it is very wrong.
Now do we credit modern education flourishing where Christian value held, when,
all humans can still choose to believe anything they want, even it is blatantly wrong,
since, something does not have to be true for anyone to believe in it.
To paraphrase ol Rodney King, why can’t we all just get along.
Cliffhild says
To my mind, the present Pope is either a naive pacifist or a closet Muslim. One World, One Religion, One Government — anyone read Revelations recently??
Judy says
Have you ever read “Extreme Oath of the Jesuits”? It is recorded in the Congressional Record. Just google it. Then read what the Jesuits swear an oath to do to anyone who is NOT CATHOLIC under the direction of the pope. They swear on penalty of death to do exactly what the Islamist do to non-believers or infidels. Don’t read it after you have eaten. It will make you gag! Nazi Pelosi, CA is a Jesuit. The current pope is a Jesuit. The Congressional Record lays it out for anyone to understand.
Jay Boo says
Just as bad as MUSLIM meme
Judy,
Your source must be the Puff Ho
heidi says
why so triggered jay boo-boo hoo? you seem to the one huffing and pooing all over people who say something you don’t agree with. believe what you want, but the facts don’t care how you feel about them, and neither does anyone else.
Mirren10 says
Judy says;
”Have you ever read “Extreme Oath of the Jesuits”? … They swear on penalty of death to do exactly what the Islamist do to non-believers or infidels. ”
And do we see Jesuits strapping on suicide vests, and murdering innocents ? Do we see Jesuits setting bombs in concert halls ? Do we see Jesuits sawing off the heads of journalists, and aid workers ? Do we see Jesuits crucifying their opponents, raping young Yazidi girls, and then selling them on to the next bidder ? Do we see Jesuits going into shopping malls, and shooting people ? No ?
Well, until we see Jesuits doing any of these things, I think we can safely say we are far more in danger from pious mohammedans, than we are from Jesuits, however bloodcurdling their Oath might be.
Your animus seems to be far more directed at Catholic churchmen, who do none of these things, than the mohammedan jihadists, who *do*. Why is that ?
heidi says
Mirren10, we are not safe from any threats against Western ideals of freedom no matter where it comes from. People infiltrating our government with the intention of destroying our freedom and their alliances with even more violent others are well deserving of “animus”
gravenimage says
Heidi, as Mirren notes, Jesuits are *not* slaughtering non-Catholics, nor are they calling for their murder.
Muslims are not just calling for this, but butchering people every day.
Mark Swan says
Obstinate perception makes the little annoyances grow. I think heidi acquiesced to
Mirren10’s points, and by clarifying Her own, and I think agree with all three, here.
But, have been wrong before. (Humor?) I leave it up to the reader.
particolor says
Kissing their Feet didn’t have a BIG IMPACT on their Moronic Behaviour either !!:-(
Archangel says
Exactly when are we supposed to have the “sincere dialogue” with the Islamists? Before or after the beheadings?
Or do we wait for the “Main Attraction” of burning “non-compliant” women in cages;
drowning others in cages also; crucifying some, flaying others alive and detonating
babies?
And is the “dialogue” to be by e-mail (safest, probably), a Meeting (take your security detail with you) or some other means?
Do tell – Bishop of Rome! Put up or shut up.
Martin says
The Qur’an states that Judas was crucified, not Jesus. Qur’an 4:156-159
The Qur’an States that Ishmael, not Isaac was the promised child. Qur’an Sura 37:103.
In Islam, you must never call God your “father”,..not even your Heavenly Father” This is blasphemy,.He is your eternal Master,..to be feared, to be respected,..but you may not place yourself so near to Him as to call God your “father”.
So,..what is to dialogue about,..?
about Mohammad consummated a marriage to a 9 year old little girl when he was 54 years old? Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62
Here is the “dialogue”: If you are offended by our U.S. Constitutional freedoms and if you demand the anti-freedom and unconstitutional Sharia law then please do not live here,..stay where such insanity is the norm.
Jake says
Too late. I’m afraid that the Islamists are pushing for war, which they will undoubtably have.
Demsci says
Probably, yes.
BUT can the Muslims as a whole, the Muslims in Democratic Societies, be sure to win? No, and thus a war is a big gamble, even for them, with all their zeal for Islam.
So many are dependent on Western Democratic societies, and so many of them know it. Only stupid young men, full of testosterone, with as yet nothing to lose, are prone to gamble on war.
But so many realize the appalling weakness of Muslims and the still formidable strength of the Kuffars.
And those with children and needy parents, relatives, are they going to jeopardise all they prophit from Kuffars, like healthcare, education?
Oh, the vast majority of Western Muslims have a lot to lose. And we, counterjihadists, do have negotiationmaterial, of only we get enough votes for “our politicians”. And it looks like it is happening, a little, but still.
And only a dialogue, with our side coming from strength, in part due to weakness of the other side, will be of any use. “Good cops accomplish more, when bad cops “threathen”.
gravenimage says
It isn’t either/or, and Muslims take the long view.
They will attack us in the West with violent Jihad, with “lawfare”, with whitewash of Islam in the schools, with the population bomb, with mass immigration, on and on.
Some societies were conquered by Islam in one bloody fell swoop, and others took centuries to fall.
Muslims attacked Byzantium for *seven hundred years* before Constantinople fell to them.
Mark Swan says
Absolutely gravenimage and all this taking place with Muslims, while, far to many
in the West are suffering from Delirium brought on by practicing unsubstantiated
political correct thinking. Muslims should have every reason to be optimistic.
gravenimage says
All true, Mark. But I do believe that more Infidels–albeit all too slowly–*are* starting to wake up.
Mark Swan says
You know gravenimage, it does seem so, you bet.
Mubarak says
“We can only respond to the Devil’s attacks with God’s works which are forgiveness, love and respect for the other, even if they are different,” he said. —
Not even God can forgive people who are so different that they can do no wrong. And in the understanding of Muslims only people who are not Muslims can do wrong.
Kay says
God forgives but if a person cannot see the need for himself to be forgiven then that one does not receive the forgiveness.
He has filled the hungry with good things but the rich he has sent empty away.
gravenimage says
It is not that Muslims believe they can do no wrong–the problem is what is considered good and evil under Islam.
Under Islam, persecuting, raping, and mass murdering the Infidels is perfectly Halal.
Demsci says
A dialogue between who exactly? The pope mentioned “especially the people who believe in one God”. But I hope not exclusively only them.
I hope for a dialogue between representatives of the Democratic system, who do hold a competing ideology with Islam, and Muslims. And it may be a simple ideology.
So that, however imperfect organized, there at least is a dialogue between TWO ideologies, not between ONE Ideology and those who reject it, in a sort of ABI (Anything But Islam).
When representatives of 2 ideologies have a public dialogue; power is important and such a dialogue really could be a sort of negotiation.
And the democratic side should come from a position of strength. Which would start to happen when Donald Trump, and in my country, Holland, Geert Wilders, and in other countries politicians like them, get elected, get many votes.
And our side might, out of a position of power, demand choices from Muslims.
For instance; every Muslim, as every Democratic Citizen, might well have an inner circle of dear friends, co-religionists (so to speak), no problem.
But both sides should choose as their runner-up friends, the people they respect and want to cooperate with, the 2nd category, being the best of their opponents; in a dialogue between Muslims and Democratic Citizens.
and choose them, prefer them openly as allies, AGAINST “co-religionists” who are harmful to the other side.
It cannot be that in a negotiation Muslims choose ALL MUSLIMS over ALL Kuffars. Or that the Democratic Citizens choose ALL Democratic Citizens over ALL MUSLIMS. However difficult that may be.
Crusades Were Right! says
“there is no God of war”
Really? Didn’t the ancient Romans believe in Mars, the God of War?
How bigoted of His Holiness to insult other people’s religion!
Kay says
And these little demon gods cause all kinds of trouble.
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
Mark Swan says
Good One Kay, there are forces most do not recognise, which mean to do us harm, and not
good. People who are deceived do not know they are deceived.
A Christian is in a constant state of war with their own human reasoning, the reasoning
of other humans, and the reasoning of Satan, all trying to resist, The Word of God, a unimaginably powerful sword, the only offensive weapon available and needed, by any servant of God.
Ephesians 6:10-17
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.” (2 Corinthians 10:35).
Les says
Bravo Mark, the word of God is more powerful than a sword
Mark Swan says
Thank You Les, and we can surely both thank God.
Crusades Were Right! says
“sincere dialogue”
With Mohammedans?
“Listen to me, kaffirs, and al taqiyya for a ride!”
Screeminmeeme says
Pope Francis………’Tear down that wall’.
Of course I mean that 40 foot wall surrounding the Vatican which was built to keep out Muslim invaders.
Kay says
Is that really why it was built?
August West says
I wonder if the Vatican got the Muslim invaders to pay for the wall?
Mark Swan says
Good One, I doubt they were as business savvy as Mr. Trump.
Carolyne says
Trump could have.
Mark Swan says
Yep, it was built to keep out the Saracen pirates,the Barbary pirates, sometimes called Barbary corsairs or Ottoman corsairs, Muslim invaders.
Demsci says
thanks Mark for that information, I reckon it must have been built then in the middle of the ninth century. I read such a thing in the novel “Pope Joan, the female pope as well).
Mark Swan says
Yes, I think so, it was after the Arab Muslim sack of the Vatican in 846.
gravenimage says
True, Mark. Here is the History Channel website:
“Following an attack by Saracen pirates that damaged St. Peter’s in 846, Pope Leo IV ordered the construction of a wall to protect the holy basilica and its associated precincts. Completed in 852, the 39-foot-tall wall enclosed what was inaugurated Leonine City, an area covering the current Vatican territory and the Borgo district. The walls were continually expanded and modified until the reign of Pope Urban VIII in the 1640s.”
http://www.history.com/topics/vatican-city
Mark Swan says
Thank you gravenimage
Infidel lives matter says
The Pope should go to Raqqa immediately for some dialogue and see how that works out.
Demsci says
If it is dialogue the Pope wants, he should have the patience to want it to be a LONG dialogue, until, say the year 2100. And a part of Muslims, and Islamic doctrine wants to eradicate what dialogue there is even now still possible.
The pope may be opposed to “Painting all Muslims with the same brush”. But that is exactly what HE is doing. Only in an absurd positive way.
He doesn’t have to choose between black and white options, but at the very least he should divide Muslims and set conditions upon dialogue, And he should not count on the “good nature of humans” but come with decent “carrots and sticks”. But he offers nothing, let alone that he threathens anything.
Dustin Koellhoffer says
So why doesn’t he go to Mecca? Or better yet, Aleppo? Talk to the leaders of the Jihad.
Anne Smith says
Francis is offering jelly-brained liberal nonsense using diversion tactics. Islamists far left allies do that a lot. He even suggested before that the social and economic marginalization of Muslim youth in Europe helped explain the actions of those who joined extremist groups.
Kay says
Yes, it seems he sees the world as if it were Latin America a few decades ago.
mowuzmad says
I learned a lot from David Wood’s video re a jesuit pope and islam – https://youtu.be/2AhdEy13la8
Kay says
Brilliant.
Demsci says
Oh yes, David Wood is almost beyond brilliant, to me he is a hero!
Lioness says
The sincere dialogue will only come from the Christian side, while the Muslims will stick a knife in their backs. Muslims are devoid of sincerity, and this Pope is a total moron to think otherwise.
Les says
Since the Pope doesn’t have an army or bombs his only way to combat evil and Islamism is his words. So why is it not reasonable for the Pope to want a dialogue!
The Pope has the best chance at dialogue because he is the vicar of God’s one holy Catholic and apostolic church. No other religion can make the claims to be God’s church and a true atheists could care less because they have no moral reason to care about anything but themselves.
His words will not change Islam which is why I’m glad God blessed America who will do what words fail to do.
One caveat, it will need to be Trump that eliminates ISIS not the clueless Brain damaged Clinton.
Mark Swan says
Good Point that last line, Les.
TC says
Why has Israel honored Pope Pius?? That pretty much shows all of those allegations are false. They planted some tree for him at a memorial park.
Paul Clark says
For Boo Jay:
Do you think you have some type of intellect superior to others? You don’t. Apparently your perception and depth of reading is seriously lacking.You have called my remarks “putrid” because I tried to encourage Christians churches to join in the fight against Jihadist. Your friend, Champ, another person, like you, is now calling people ” jerks” and “dopey”. Like you, there are a bunch of people on this site that seem to know whether a person is sincere or is a Christian or not. Also one of your friends that joints in bashing people, like you do stated that I had only been of the site a few days. I have been on this site over a year or two. You and your friends have implied that I am a hater. Untrue. I even love a ‘ hater ” like you. Your friends have said I was a “pretend” Christian. Again untrue. You and your friends have said I was a drunk. I don’t drink . You and your friends have called me derange, which makes me wonder what mental rehab center are you blogging from. I never have been tested, I have operated very successfully in in this society for many years. which indicates that I am very sane. How about you? It is obvious you and your friends are severely limited in everything, but hateful remarks. There is nothing wrong with that either, if they are true. But, you and Your friends remarks remind me of Muslims hatefulness. Lastly you think I am a “spoof” on Jihad Watch because I write, Where have all the Christians gone? Have they fled the cross? You are so limited in thinking you can’t even begin to understand what I am saying. Stop bashing people and ” pick up your cross” Yes, I will pray for you: May God bless you and help you to be a more and kind, understanding people.
Linde Barrera says
To Paul Clark- As per your 12:44 pm comment of Sep. 25, 2016, to Jay Boo, I want to let you know that your 2 questions “Where are the Christians? Have they fled the cross?” seemed like you were mocking Christians, as though you were some Islamist rebuking Christians for not being masochists and coming back for more punishments like rape, torture, and death done by the brutal barbarians. You did not write any further qualifying statements to explain or clarify your intentions. So to me it sounded like you were scolding Christians out of self-righteous indignation. I am a Christian who believes in fighting back if I am attacked. I am a strong supporter of the 2ND Amendment of the US Constitution. One Rezali Mehil, a periodic JW commenter has called me (and Champ) “phoney Christians” because we do not believe that Christians have to take continuous beatings, etc. In Luke 22:36-38 Jesus said to His disciples: “Trade (sell) your cloak (mantle) for a sword.” This is our justification. At the same time, we don’t believe that Christians should be attacking anyone, unprovoked. And as to “turning the other check” I take that as “Insult me all you want, it doesn’t bother me.” I don’t know how Champ interprets it. So please do all of us a favor, Paul Clark! Be more clear, concise and coherent when next you post a comment here. Nobody is trying to take away your right to speak your mind.
Mirren10 says
”To Paul Clark- As per your 12:44 pm comment of Sep. 25, 2016, to Jay Boo, I want to let you know that your 2 questions “Where are the Christians? Have they fled the cross?” seemed like you were mocking Christians, as though you were some Islamist rebuking Christians for not being masochists and coming back for more punishments like rape, torture, and death done by the brutal barbarians. You did not write any further qualifying statements to explain or clarify your intentions. ”
Exactly, Linde. Well said.
Champ says
”To Paul Clark- As per your 12:44 pm comment of Sep. 25, 2016, to Jay Boo, I want to let you know that your 2 questions “Where are the Christians? Have they fled the cross?” seemed like you were mocking Christians, as though you were some Islamist rebuking Christians for not being masochists and coming back for more punishments like rape, torture, and death done by the brutal barbarians. You did not write any further qualifying statements to explain or clarify your intentions. ”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spot on Linde & Mirren10! I concur!
So that makes 3 of us whom are observing the *same* nonsense from “Paul Clark.”
Linde Barrera says
Hi Champ- Thank you for giving me a thumbs up, as per your comment of 5:11 pm, Sep. 26, 2016. Take care, dear Champ!
Linde Barrera says
To Mirren10- Hi girly, thank you for your 7:17 am post of Sep. 26, 2016 to me. I hope things are going well for you in bonny Scotland. I was very glad to read some months ago that the Pastor from Northern Ireland was found “not guilty” of defaming Islam (or whatever the charge was) because he spoke the truth about it. I was also very pleased to see Anjem Choudary get a jail sentence from a judge in England. I also like the group called “Britain First”. So now let us hope that the Germans get rid of Chancellor Merkel, either by impeaching her, or voting for the opposition party that will diminish her party to squeekers! Take care, Mirren10.
Walter Sieruk says
What wrong with pope Francis that he can’t see the folly of even attempting to have “sincere dialogue” with the believers in Islam ? For example, one Islamic doctrine is that of Taqiyya which is the dogma that lying and speaking words of deception are a good thing to do if it’s for the advancement of Islam. So even trying to engage in worthwhile talks of value is nothing-less then a waste of effort and time. As in having an outcome that is at best total futility. The pope must have much information about history and literature about he use by many Muslims of Islamic deception and scheming in the Vatican library. There is really no excuse for him to be so very ignorant as to make such a fool statement about the need for “Sincere “dialogue”
Walter Sieruk says
In attempting to have such “sincere dialogue” with committed Muslims will result in receiving from them disingenuous speech , empty and lying words along with a bit of half-truth. put in the mix.. As in double- talk with empty “talk’ falseness and deception . The very best outcome of such “dialogue” will be the spinning of the wheels of blarney .
Xero_G says
Sincere dialogue from Muslims always include:
Islam has NOTHING to do with terrorism
Terrorists are not true Muslims, they PERVERT the faith of one of the world’s great religions
“Jihad” is an internal struggle to better oneself
Islam does not condone killing of “innocents” (failing to define who is considered “innocent”)
Terrorists kill more Muslims than any other demographic (implying that terrorists are not Muslim).
Muhammad was peaceful, wise, merciful, holy, perfect code of conduct
gary fouse says
I have seen and heard enough from this pope. He should take his place alongside Benedict and resign.
Our religious leaders (Catholics, Protestants and Jews) have failed us.
SpiritOf1683 says
One thing is certain – there’s never been a more stupid pontiff in the Vatican.
jayell says
How can you have a ‘sincere dialogue’ with people who not only endorse but actually prescribe insincerity in the form of deliberate deceit and lies unless (a) you are hopelessly naive and credulous or (b) you are hopelessly ignorant or (c) you are actually playing some kind of underhand game of manipulation/deception which involves you giving the impression of being (a) or (b) above; which means that you would be sinking to the level of the ‘opposition’. Whichever might be correct, islam could be said to have won because, if their arrogant aggression or blatant deception have not succeeded, they would have succeeded in undermining your position by corrupting your integrity. Best to have nothing whatever to do with them.
gravenimage says
Pope urges “sincere dialogue” between Christians and Muslims as he meets Nice jihad victims
…………………………
What “dialogue” were the victims supposed to have with the Muslim who *mowed them down with a truck*? This is beyond belief in blaming the victims of Islam. *Ugh*.
More apologia for evil from this morally witless pontiff.
Carolyne says
The only “Dialog” (When did talking become “Dialog?”) I can see possible for the victims of the Nice Massacre and Muslims is “Please don’t run over me with a big truck.”
Carolyne says
I keep reading about how Pope Pius VII saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from Nazis. I’m not saying he didn’t and I have no reason to say that, but I am wondering how he saved them and where they went after they were saved.
gravenimage says
This short article gives a good overview of the situation, Carolyn:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
Carolyne says
thank you Gravenimage. I was most impressed with the issuing of baptismal certificates to Jews. Very brave.
gravenimage says
🙂
patriotliz says
It’s Pope Francis, that has to learn from St. Francis of Assisi and tame the wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_of_Gubbio
Infidelis says
…but Your Holiness, surely you and everyone else already knows that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
Ali Bey says
Pope should also urge dialogue with non believers
Paul Clark says
To Linda Barrera:
Thank you. Let me assure you that I am not mocking Christians. I am a Christian. I feel it is God’s desire that I help. I am only trying to get the Christian community involved. Many, many churches do absolutely nothing. If you attend a church regularly, more than likely, you know this is true. I live in a conservative area and I know many of the Christians that attend most of the churches. They are not involved in any manner of supporting most organizations fighting Islam. Much of the congregation are ignorant about Islam. They don’t even know the simple fundamental differences of Christianity and Islam, nor do their leaders. Most do not even support organizations that help those severely persecuted by Muslims. There are millions of Christians and thousands of churches with tremendous resources. This is why I ask the two questions over and over: Where have you gone? Have you fled the cross? Many times I ask them to pick up their cross and follow Him. Please tell me the harm in this.
Mirren10 says
”Please tell me the harm in this.”
None at all, if what you say about yourself is true. When it appeared you were spamming the threads with the repeated question, ”Where have you gone? Have you fled the cross? ” it appeared to me, and others, that you were either a mohammedan in a mask, or a leftard apologist for islam, twitting Christians for being cowards, which, given the situation of Christians in Syria, and other mohammedan cess pits, seemed particularly egregious. If you’re going to comment here, you need to be less ambiguous.
”I live in a conservative area and I know many of the Christians that attend most of the churches. They are not involved in any manner of supporting most organizations fighting Islam. Much of the congregation are ignorant about Islam. They don’t even know the simple fundamental differences of Christianity and Islam, nor do their leaders. Most do not even support organizations that help those severely persecuted by Muslims.”
I assume, since you are castigating your fellow Christians, (not without cause) that you yourself do all these things ? If so, kudos to you.
Linde Barrera says
To Paul Clark- Thank you for your comments of 7:37 am, Sep. 26, 2016, addressed to me. I live in Brooklyn, NY and in my lifetime I have attended and become a member of 1 of these 2 churches: the Congregational Church or the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Both churches had good Sunday School programs for children and Bible studies (separate from the church service) for adults. Both children and adults were taught doctrines of the Holy Bible, Old and New Testaments. Of course not every attendee or member came to Bible study and some did not attend church every Sunday, but the programs were sound teachings of the Bible, the basis of Christianity. So when you stated that in your conservative area (you did not say what country you live in) people who go to church don’t know the difference between Christianity and Islam, that is not only sad, it is appaling. Furthermore, many Christian churches all over America have a “church world relief fund” or something like that where people can donate clothing, money and school supplies or medicines to the larger church body for distribution to third world countries. But to my knowledge, no church yet has a program of sponsorship to help bring over Christian refugees from Islamic countries who have suffered persecution from the Islamists. I think there is no program because they have to work with the federal bureaucrats from immigration service agencies. Good luck in your efforts, Paul. May God bless your efforts.
Mirren10 says
”They don’t even know the simple fundamental differences of Christianity and Islam, nor do their leaders.”
Are you telling them ? I hope so.
gravenimage says
I hope so, as well.
Louise M. says
These interfaith dialogues are doomed to fail because they always exclude Islam’s agressive political agenda….and its non religious allies !
Mr Bergoglio is a cold Globalist politician playing a fake heart-warming spiritual game.
Certain of his pictures reveal such cruel facial expressions that you can hardly believe he was appointed as a …”Holy Father” !!!….
Rather the Catholic Church Creepy Traitor…
Steve says
Dialogue has accomplished absolutely nothing! You cannot dialogue with a religion that is incompatible with human rights. I’m tired of hearing calls for dialogue. Why is it that we never hear from the Religious leaders of Islam? Where are the religious leaders Islam?
Ali Bey says
Pope could promote dialogue between God and the Devil.
Benedict says
Unable to understand this Pope Christians are being killed including priests, but this Pope wants to talk with Muslims, when the Koran states that Christians and Jews are vile beings. Their minds are made up by what is written in the Koran.