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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Robert Spencer: What did Erdogan know, and when did he know it?

Dec 20, 2016 11:23 am By Robert Spencer

A Turkish police officer has murdered the Russian Ambassador to Turkey. What did Erdogan know? My latest in FrontPage:

An off-duty police officer named Mevlut Mert Altintas, screaming “Allahu akbar” and making the raised index finger gesture that has come to be a signal of allegiance to the Islamic State (ISIS), murdered Andrey Karlov, the Russian ambassador to Turkey, at an art exhibit in Ankara on Monday. Altintas was reportedly a “member of the special ops unit in Ankara” – raising the question of what did Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan know, and when did he know it?

As he murdered Karlov, Altintas shouted: “Allahu akbar (God is greatest). Do not forget Aleppo! Do not forget Syria! Do not forget Aleppo! Do not forget Syria!” Russia, of course, has greatly aided the Assad regime to retake Aleppo and driving jihadi “rebels” back. Altintas’ Islamic State signal, unless it was a deliberate feint, could have indicated that he was loyal both to Erdogan and to ISIS, both of which are arrayed against Russia.

Erdogan hates Assad and has vowed to unseat him; what’s more, there are numerous indications that he wants to co-opt the Islamic State into a new Ottoman caliphate. His contempt for Kemalist secularism, and consistent and determined efforts to erode it away, have been noted for years. Also frequently noted is the fact that Erdogan has frequently been accused of “neo-Ottoman” tendencies – that is, of wanting to restore the caliphate. Turkey, after all, was the home of the last caliphate, the Ottoman Empire. It is highly possible, therefore, that Erdogan sees the Islamic State less as an enemy than an opportunity: he may envision it defeating his other enemies, such as the Kurds and Assad’s Alawite regime in Damascus, or at least holding them at bay until the opportunity arises for him to move in and reap the benefits of the Islamic State’s activities, transferring the seat of its caliphate to Istanbul, and perhaps even installing himself as the caliph.

That scenario would explain why in September 2014, Erdogan’s Turkey refused to sign a pledge committing the nations of the Persian Gulf region to fighting the Islamic State, even though that pledge was so toothless as to specify that the participating nations were only committing to fighting ISIS to the extent that each deemed “appropriate.”

Around the same time, Barack Obama and John Kerry have failed in repeated efforts to persuade the Turkish government to move against the Islamic State’s black market in oil. Turkish authorities explained that 49 Turkish diplomats were being held hostage in the Islamic State, and claimed that if Turkey struck ISIS too hard, those diplomats would be endangered. The Pentagon even spotted oil tanker trucks moving Islamic State oil in Turkish territory, but declined to strike them for fear of further weakening what was not much more than a paper alliance at that point and is even weaker now.

But Erdogan is clearly much more concerned about the Russians than about the Americans. After all, Barack Obama agrees with him that Assad must be toppled before there can be any effective action against the Islamic State. The Russians, on the other hand, are aiding Assad as a bulwark against the Islamic State, thereby thwarting Erdogan’s caliphate dreams and eroding what he would take over if he were able ultimately to co-opt the ISIS caliphate.

So did Erdogan order the assassination of Andrey Karlov? After Erdogan was widely accused, with considerable justification, of engineering a coup attempt against himself several months ago so as to give himself a pretext to move against his political enemies, this possibility cannot be dismissed.

And even if none of this is the case, and Erdogan had nothing to do with Karlov’s murder, the rapid re-Islamization of Turkey, and its fundamental realignment as an Islamic state rather than a Western-oriented secular one, cannot be denied. Accordingly, even the fact that Turkey is still considered by U.S. officials to be an ally against the Islamic State manifests the crying need for a thoroughgoing reevaluation and realignment of U.S. foreign policy, which is still based on old Cold War models, procedures, and alliances that not only do not apply to the struggle against the global jihad and against the Islamic State in particular, but are actively counterproductive.

As the swamp is drained in Washington, the sham alliance with Turkey needs to be seriously reexamined.

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Filed Under: Featured, Turkey Tagged With: Mevlut Mert Altintas, Recep Tayyip Erdogan


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Comments

  1. john spielman says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 11:43 am

    the US has closed all consulates and its embassy in TURKEY temporarily, but they should do it -PERMANENTLY
    one cannot trust Erdogan and his muslim ilk BUT
    Russia is playing a very dangerous game in the Middle East playing Iran off against Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the other Sunni dominate Arabs and it will end in disaster for them as they get sucked down into the Islamic sewer of unending warfare and terror!

    • Sassy says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 8:47 pm

      For a few years now, I have been saying this will end in a major war Turkey VS Iran.
      I see nothing wrong in this. Sunnis killing Shias and vice-versa.
      Iran is permeating the Mid-East, notably Iraq.
      The Saudis (Sunni) want to build a natural gas pipeline throughout Mid-East.
      Just let them slaughter each other, this is the best we can do.
      In the meantime, as Trump says, establish safe zones and refugee centers in Jordan, Syria and even Tunisia.
      We have to let them kill each other for our own good. It is also part of their destiny. Inshallah.

      • Peter says

        Dec 21, 2016 at 2:22 am

        Sassy, Iran will soon have the bomb. Hoping that the Shiites and Sunnis will wipe each other out is now a misplaced hope for us Infidels. This is all coming to a head completely in line with Shite millenarian dogma. All we need now is for the Mahdi to re-emerge from occultation.

    • A Harris USA says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 4:07 pm

      John, I agree.. But, Putin is not a wild eyed fool. The Turks are totally crazy… Some say from generations of in-breeding.. Putin will pull the rug out from under Turkey, Iran, and the rest of them.. I think once he and Trump form a plan, maybe not known to all of us, the gig is up for Turkey.. NATO needs to expel the Turks, take out money out of there, and let Putin do what he has planned!! This Ergdon in another Muslim dictator, and wants to rise the old Ottoman Empire.. It will be fun to watch!!

      • gravenimage says

        Dec 22, 2016 at 6:12 pm

        I’m afraid that far from pulling the rug out from under them, that Putin has been enabling a nuclear Iran.

  2. ECAW says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 11:57 am

    Off topic but I thought this was potentially important and worth bringing to your attention. Nigel Farage has tweeted of Jo Cox’s widower “He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and undemocratic means.”

    Hope Not Hate, who I believe had a prominent role in getting Robert Spencer banned from Britain, have threatened legal action. It would be a great thing to have their actions and ideology examined in court:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/20/nigel-farage-accuses-jo-cox-widower-brendan-cox-of-supporting-extremism

    • ECAW says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 12:35 pm

      And here they are being caught out telling porkies:

      http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/20/economist-hope-not-hate-exaggerated-hate-speech-3000-per-cent/

    • Angemon says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 3:53 pm

      ECAW posted:

      “I thought this was potentially important and worth bringing to your attention.”

      I agree with your assessment.

  3. . W says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 12:20 pm

    the Bible says we should HATE WHAT is evil, not WHO is evil, islam is an evil doctrine of Satan and muhammed was a demon possessed mass murderer thief liar and pedophile pervert. I don’t HATE muslims who are deceived by Satan/allah

    • Christianblood says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 6:41 pm

      W

      Any muslim motivated by the hateful and the murderous islamic death cult is as just evil as islam itself and you can’t separate the two. Can you?
      Good muslim=ISIS.

      • More Ham Ed says

        Dec 21, 2016 at 4:30 am

        Dec. 21st 2016 and you STILL DON’T HAVE YOUR OWN WEBSITE.
        Change your forumname to Mommy’s Basement.

      • Angemon says

        Jan 1, 2017 at 6:42 am

        “Any muslim motivated by the hateful and the murderous islamic death cult is as just evil as islam itself and you can’t separate the two. ”

        Does that include the shia islam you’ve praised?

    • Champ says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 6:54 pm

      W,

      Read Proverbs 6:16-19 …

      16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him:

      17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

      18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,

      19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

      • Rob Porter says

        Dec 21, 2016 at 7:26 pm

        Champ, well said, or well quoted. Among others, true Muslim believers fit to a T what “the Lord hates”. It also puts God attitude towards true believers in Islam in clear perspective. What a pity more Christians don’t drill this into their thick, self-deluding, oh so well-intended heads. A couple of years back I was in church and in one prayer, made by a female, she prayed for “our Muslim brothers and sisters”. I marvelled. Some “brothers and sisters”, so afterwards I had a quiet word with her!

        • Champ says

          Dec 22, 2016 at 2:02 am

          A couple of years back I was in church and in one prayer, made by a female, she prayed for “our Muslim brothers and sisters”. I marvelled. Some “brothers and sisters”, so afterwards I had a quiet word with her!

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Indeed, Rob, muslims are NOT our “brothers and sisters.” This is what Christians call ‘other’ Christians. And I admire you for offering her some much needed correction.

    • Cleanseignorace says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 6:47 am

      Am sorry, Islam and Muslims are one and the same. In fact Muslims are worst than Islam, because Islam is merely an ideology and it does not impliment itself. Muslims impliments the evils of Islam. Without muslims, there would not be all these killings of innocents. Same as Guns, do no go shooting just by themselves, it is people that pulls the trigger. Without Muslims implementing the dangerious idiology of the pedopjile prophet, Islam will merely be read in history books and there will be no Jihad. Muslims ar the Problem please. Make no mistake about it.

  4. DFD says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    What did Erdogan know, and when did he know it?

    He knew it all and in advance.

    Further, he’s testing what he can do with Russia/Putin. As much as with Merkel? No, but how much? How far? He needs to know.

    Damn, why are we such suckers for them?

  5. Tom S. says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 3:28 pm

    If you’ve ever seen the film “Russian Ark”, Erdogan should be required to appear at the Winter Palace for an audience with Putin to offer a formal apology for the death of Andrey Karlov, and explain how it will never happen again.

  6. somehistory says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 3:38 pm

    He may have asked his elite cops, “Who will go in and kill him?” and the murderer knowing that he would be shot dead afterward…going to his *reward.*

    • Damocles Junior says

      Dec 20, 2016 at 3:50 pm

      Looking at the endless replays of that assassination that guy certainly knew how to handle a gun, quite deadly.

      But, here we have an educated man, in a position of trust, dressed in stylish western clothes in what is supposed to be modern secular Turkey, what has gone wrong? My answer to that is; if you are a Muslim you are and will always be a Muslim, this applied to his supervisor all the way up to the very top, that is President Erdogan.

      There are 1.4 Billion of them (Muslims) out there, we should be concerned.

      As for Putin, will he be the Man of Steel, perhaps he does not want to start a real shooting war, who knows? He is in a very difficult position.

      s to the ongoing conflicts in the ME, do they really know what they are fighting about, OK it is mainly the 2 major sects of Islam fighting but with a common enemy, that is us. They have beeen fighting each other since Islam was invented, why do we try and impose peace on them, i dont think they understand the word.

  7. Christianblood says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 7:02 pm

    Robert Spencer posted:

    (…Accordingly, even the fact that Turkey is still considered by U.S. officials to be an ally against the Islamic State manifests the crying need for a thoroughgoing reevaluation and realignment of U.S. foreign policy, which is still based on old Cold War models, procedures, and alliances that not only do not apply to the struggle against the global jihad and against the Islamic State in particular, but are actively counterproductive…)

    Very well-said, Robert Spencer! Donald Trump, was right when he called Nato
    an obsolete institution which is unable to deal with the biggest danger to the world peace today and that danger is the global islamic jihadist threat that we all face. Despite the very dangerous global islamic jihadist threat Nato and US foreign policy view Russia and its leader as the first threat and is even working in collaboration with jihadist states and groups to further its suspicion and fear of an imaginary ‘threat’ posed by Russia! I believe this misplaced perception that Russia, not the global islamic jihadism is the number one threat to the West is in itself a very dangerous false ideology which needs to be eliminated.

    • More Ham Ed says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 4:31 am

      Yawwwwwn.

      • Christianblood says

        Dec 21, 2016 at 8:29 am

        More Ham Ed

        My advice to you is simple: Just avoid reading ‘CB’ s comments if the truth containing in them is bothering you!

        • Angemon says

          Jan 1, 2017 at 6:41 am

          Christianblood posted:

          “More Ham Ed

          My advice to you is simple: Just avoid reading ‘CB’ s comments if the truth containing in them is bothering you!”

          Did you forgot to switch accounts before posting that? Forgot you were still logged in as “Christianblood” when you tried to manufacture support?

    • Angemon says

      Jan 1, 2017 at 6:43 am

      And there you go again, CB, pouncing at every opportunity to spit your political anti-Western propaganda. No respect for the dead or the topic at hand.

  8. Eric Jones says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 8:26 pm

    Erdogan knew what to do and when to do when Obama told him what to do. Obama and Erdogan are ardent islamist and want to try to trap Russia into a war with NATO.

    No Turkey is no longer the secular state it was during from 1950 thru 1980’s. It was islamiszied by Erdogan and Gulan.

    The USA should move all of its assets out of Turkey and kick Turkey out of NATO.

    Eric

  9. Gerald Mucci says

    Dec 20, 2016 at 10:53 pm

    Amen, brother Spencer. Aye aye.

  10. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 21, 2016 at 7:55 am

    mr spencer,you are totally wrong.erdogan and over 90% of turkish population are sufi muslims mostly from rumy order.how can you expect them to have an alliance with isis a military wing of wahhabism, which considers sufis to be apostates to be killed?one thing you should bear in mind is that all muslims of whatever sect are not satisfied with secularism, which stemed from belief that god was defeated or even dead;and therefore has no relevance in modern society.muslims take god as a guide to mankind in all aspects of life.ask ordinary turks,the majority population,are not satisfied with kamalism.some even consider kamal ataturks as deviant and now in hellfire.those majority in turkish society who disbelieve in secularism or kamalism are the stunt supporters of erdoga.thus, if the christian west fights erdogan,they are fighting the turks.erdogan is not alone, he represents turkish national aspiration,which is islam.

    • Hotep says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm

      Are you crazy !!! I am Turkish and al least 50% of Turks hate Erdogan… He is not Sufi he is sunni muslim. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is our leader and we will never ever let the sharia lovers change the country’s secular constitution. So make sure you understand that not all Turks are muslim.

    • george says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 12:34 pm

      Really, kurds n alaweits only 10%…….what sufi…….bull shit……turks behaved no better than Is Or any other islamics…….in Indian languages if you say don’t behave like a tuurk means an insult……..because turks are K own for uncultured behavior……..nobody can debate a culture that takes pride in the fa t that their great grandfathers were murdered n great grandmas were sex slaves in the sultans harems

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 1:34 am

      Foul apologist for Muslim savagery ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:

      mr (sic) spencer,you (sic) are totally wrong.erdogan (sic) and over 90% of turkish (sic) population are sufi (sic) muslims (sic) mostly from rumy order.how (sic) can you expect them to have an alliance with isis (sic) a military wing of wahhabism (sic), which considers sufis (sic) to be apostates to be killed?
      ……………………………..

      There is ample evidence that Turkey has been supporting ISIS:

      “Report: Turkey collaborating with the Islamic State”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/report-turkey-collaborating-with-the-islamic-state

      More:

      one (sic) thing you should bear in mind is that all muslims (sic) of whatever sect are not satisfied with secularism,
      ……………………………..

      Well, this is true–all pious Muslims want to see the imposition of brutal Shari’ah law. Damn barbarians.

      More:

      which stemed (sic) from belief that god was defeated or even dead;and (sic) therefore has no relevance in modern society.
      ……………………………..

      What rot. More proof–if any were needed–that Muslims understand nothing about the concept of separation of church and state.

      More:

      muslims (sic) take god (sic) as a guide to mankind in all aspects of life.ask (sic) ordinary turks,the (sic) majority population,are (sic) not satisfied with kamalism.some (sic) even consider kamal (sic) ataturks (sic) as deviant and now in hellfire.those (sic) majority in turkish (sic) society who disbelieve in secularism or kamalism (sic) are the stunt (sic) supporters of erdoga (sic).
      ……………………………..

      Of course, this is not God, but the vicious “Allah”. Of course most Muslims disagreed with Atatürk’s attempts to turn Turkey into an at least marginally civilized society; it simply is not Islamic. So of course pious Muslims there embrace Erdogan’s re-Islamization of the country.

      More:

      thus, (sic) if the christian west fights erdogan,they (sic) are fighting the turks.erdogan (sic) is not alone, he represents turkish (sic) national aspiration,which (sic) is islam (sic).
      ……………………………..

      And what is more Islamic than the Islamic State? Any defense against Jihad will be interpreted as being un-Islamic–which it is.

    • Samuel barthis says

      Jan 18, 2017 at 3:55 am

      how much of Turkey’s self determination is imposed? Can we speak of 90% Islamic coherence? Erdogan and Islam impose Islam on the populace; this, too, is Islam’s purpose for the West, the World. His aspiration for a caliphate is the conduit through which culmination of this objective is to be achieved.

      Erdogan, Islam, is not a friend of the World unless it yields to the desire of the Qur’an. In this context do we have to understand historic and current Muslim psychosis of vengeance and war. The ubiquitous and daily turmoil, killings and politicking is generate by this psychosis which Islam and Erdogan want to bequeath to the World. However, there are still a few sane people who resists and they rests call us bigots!!

  11. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 21, 2016 at 2:39 pm

    hotep, you are a liar, not turkish muslim.almost all turks are muslims,about 99.99%.check, erdogan is a sufi muslim and sufis are part of sunni islam.wahhabis are khawarijis,not sunni.they are only claiming to be sunni,while they are not.abdulwahhab(may allah curse him),a jew, revived khawariji takfir ideology declaring all other muslims to be apostates and shall be killed. hotep, you also lied to say muslim turks are satisfied with secularism or hate erdogan.go to turkey and conduct survey, not trial and error.you must be mithraist filthy christian worshiping man-god,which is an absolute stupidity.

    • Hotep says

      Dec 21, 2016 at 5:48 pm

      You are funny I am from Turkey, and non-religious, we have around 1 million non believers, we have 30%left wing seculars and also half of the kurds are seculars. Ok maybe Erdogan and his supporters are very strong but he is the last remaining radical leader, actually he is from muslim brotherhood. At the end we don’t like the arab religion whether it is sunni, shia, wahabi, ahmadi.. the problem is in the book not in the sects.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 1:52 am

      Vile Muslim apologist ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:

      hotep, you are a liar, not turkish (sic) muslim.almost (sic) all turks (sic) are muslims,about (sic) 99.99%.
      …………………………

      It’s not quite that high, but it is close. What muhammed does not mention is that the figure is so high because Turkey wiped out almost its entire Christian population–as many as two million people–in the 19th and 20th centuries in the Armenian Genocide. And now he is bragging about it–damn barbarian. *Ugh*.

      More:

      check (sic), erdogan (sic) is a sufi (sic) muslim (sic) and sufis (sic) are part of sunni (sic) islam.wahhabis (sic) are khawarijis,not (sic) sunni.they (sic) are only claiming to be sunni,while (sic) they are not.abdulwahhab(may (sic) allah (sic) curse him),a jew, (sic) revived khawariji (sic) takfir (sic) ideology declaring all other muslims (sic) to be apostates and shall be killed.
      …………………………

      The only objection muhammed appears to have with Wahhabism is its considering other Muslims–like himself, perhaps–to be insufficiently Islamic. But both sects embrace Jihad and Shari’ah, and there is little difference between them as far was civilized people are concerned.

      The idea that a Jew would be an orthodox pious Muslim is ridiculous, as well–but then, so many Muslims accuse anyone they dislike to be a “Jew”. In fact, rival Muslims are always accusing Erdogan of being a “Jew” as well.

      More:

      hotep (sic), you also lied to say muslim (sic) turks (sic) are satisfied with secularism or hate erdogan.go (sic) to turkey and conduct survey, not trial and error.you (sic) must be mithraist (sic) filthy christian (sic) worshiping man-god,which (sic) is an absolute stupidity.
      …………………………

      muhammed assumes that anyone who disagrees with him is a “filthy mithraist chirstian” or an “evil jew”. Hotep has been posting here for a long time. There are still secularists in Turkey–although probably fewer all the time, given the Islamizing climate.

      Polls in Turkey show support for Erdogan to be at about two-thirds–which is about what Hotep notes.

  12. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 22, 2016 at 1:11 am

    hotep,it means you are a filthy mithraist christian worshiping a man partly god and partly human?you mean you are not satisfied with the quran the best book?you are satisfied with mithraist evil bible(the book of genocide and phornography)produced from conjectures inspired by the devil as continuation of roman paganism of mithraism of old?if that is the case,you must be very badly smelly with large foreskin full of maggots and your wife with rotten vagina producing disgusting horrible bad smells.if you are not from the united states, hurry up ,prepare your travel document, to attend assumption of office of a baboon as next american president where filthy christians ladies will display full nudity to entertain you showing that the united states now becomes fully beast animal farm under devil.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 2:10 am

      More from ibrahim itace muhammed:

      hotep,it (sic) means you are a filthy mithraist (sic) christian (sic) worshiping a man partly god and partly human?you (sic) mean you are not satisfied with the quran (sic) the best book?you (sic) are satisfied with mithraist (sic) evil bible(the (sic) book of genocide and phornography)produced (sic) from conjectures inspired by the devil as continuation of roman paganism of mithraism (sic) of old?
      ………………………………….

      Hotep is non-religious–he is not Christian. But then, muhammed’s reading comprehension is very poor. The other day he thought I was discussing sex with quadrupeds, when the actual topic was Qur’anic scholarship. Really, though, I can understand why some might confuse the subjects…

      And he still does not grasp that Christianity has nothing to do with Mithraism, and that most of the Bible much predates that existence of that creed in Rome, or of Rome in the Levant, or even of Rome as a power–but I suppose someone mentioned this to him once, and he is simply autistic in his inability to let it go.

      And he considers the Golden Rule to be “phornography”–very telling.

      And of course he considers the foul Qur’an, with its injunctions to rape and slaughter unbelievers to be the “best book”. *Ugh*.

      Yet more:

      if that is the case,you must be very badly smelly with large foreskin full of maggots and your wife with rotten vagina producing disgusting horrible bad smells.
      ………………………………….

      Why is muhammed so obsessed with Infidel men’s foreskins? I hate to speculate…

      More:

      if (sic) you are not from the united (sic) states (sic), hurry up ,prepare your travel document, to attend assumption of office of a baboon as next american (sic) president where filthy christians (sic) ladies will display full nudity to entertain you showing that the united (sic) states (sic) now becomes fully beast animal farm under devil.
      ………………………………….

      Hotep is Turkish, as he has noted many times here.

      And muhammed has aired his bizarre fantasy many times that Donald Trump is going to mandate that all American women walk about naked. Who knows where he got this from? Probably from Islamic sex slave statues, where Infidel sex slaves are not allowed to dress lest anyone think they are not slaves.

      How terribly disappointed he will be when this fevered fantasy of naked ladies at the inauguration fails to come true.

      Oh, and where does the “baboon” thing come from? Likely from the Islamic idea that Jews were turned into apes and pigs, which Muslims take quite literally.

    • Jack Diamond says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 3:12 am

      “The label on the jar said the brain belonged to an ‘Abby Normal’. It was an Abby Normal brain.”
      –from “Young Frankenstein” (more or less)

      This is your mind on Islam…

  13. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 22, 2016 at 2:54 am

    gravenimage,it means mad donald trump looks like baboon resembling the devil.there is nothing good in trump except evils inspired into him by the devils?where are those ladies complaining about sexual assaults by devil trump?now that the devil will be inaugrated as president,he will make it a law that they must appear naked for him to touche all sensitive positions of their bodies and they have no case.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 3:26 am

      The appalling ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:

      gravenimage,it (sic) means mad donald (sic) trump (sic) looks like baboon resembling the devil.there (sic) is nothing good in trump (sic) except evils inspired into him by the devils?where (sic) are those ladies complaining about sexual assaults by devil trump (sic)?
      ………………………………….

      I am actually hardly an unalloyed Trump fan, and his rather cavalier comments about women are part of that reason. But his crude locker room talk is *nothing* compared to the orgy of Muslims raping Infidel women across Europe–and this is starting to happen here in the US, as well. If Trump can keep out some of the Jihad rapists, I will be happy to support that.

      And no–a bad dye job and comb-over does not “resembling the devil”. It just means that Trump can probably afford better hair-styling. But I have never been so shallow as to judge someone by their coif, just as I never much cared that Hillary Clinton wears rather ugly pantsuits. Really, I consider much more serious matters–such as whether someone is apt to protect us from violent Jihad.

      Trump is hardly perfect in his understanding of the Jihad threat, but it is much better than that of the appeasing Clinton.

      More:

      now (sic) that the devil will be inaugrated (sic) as president,he will make it a law that they must appear naked for him to touche (sic) all sensitive positions of their bodies and they have no case.
      ………………………………….

      Why is muhammed *still* ranting about this? In less than a month, he will discover that this lurid fantasy of his is just that. Will he learn anything from it? Almost certainly not–he will just go on to his next absurdity.

  14. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 22, 2016 at 7:22 am

    mr gravenimage,it appears that all what you filthy christians and evil jews want is for the muslim to abandone their noble way of way of life using models formulated in the light of the noble quran and adopt your filthy beast models from the mithraist evil bible(the book of genocide,sexism,phornography,homophobia,slavery and brigandage).please read this article at:whistlingthewin.org/2012/04/22/t, to know more about terrible teachings of your mithraist evil bible ;like racism,genocide,sexism, phornography,homophobia,slavery and brigandages.all these obnoxious teachings were put into practice by the church, and they have great impacts on christian way of life,especially in the west.now devil trump vows to maintain the status and even more of these savageries. mr gravenimage, instead of addressing such issues i raised against your evil bible,you resort to insults on prophet muhammad and the quran without proper understanding of what the quran really teachs,which prophet muhammad demostrated as guiding models for future generations up to this time.you rather maciliously rely on the activities of the misguided terrorists groups whom you call pious muslims.how can a wickedman killing innocent children be refered to as pious?such definition can only be found in devil trump’s dictionary and you mischiefmakers following him. mr gravenimage,if you are interested in genuine debate,read the article i refered you above and then read carefully books like:islamic law of war and peace by hamidullah,the emergence of arab nationalism,commentary on the holy quran by yusuf ali;all in english.if you can read and understand arabic version of the quran and its commentaries like tantawy,qurtabi(from cordoba in the then muslim spain), ib kathir;it would have been better to enable you follow the debate. thank you.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 8:29 am

      Apologist for Muslim savagery ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:

      mr (sic) gravenimage,it (sic) appears that all what you filthy christians (sic) and evil jews (sic) want is for the muslim (sic) to abandone (sic) their noble way of way of life using models formulated in the light of the noble quran (sic) and adopt your filthy beast models from the mithraist (sic) evil bible(the (sic) book of genocide,sexism,phornography,homophobia,slavery (sic) and brigandage).please (sic) read this article at:whistlingthewin.org/2012/04/22/t, to know more about terrible teachings of your mithraist (sic) evil bible (sic) ;like racism,genocide,sexism, phornography,homophobia,slavery (sic) and brigandages (sic).
      ………………………….

      Ah…yes–the “noble” Muslim way of life. Here are just a couple of examples:

      “Afghanistan: 8-year-old bride of mullah bleeds to death on her wedding night”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/05/afghanistan-8-year-old-bride-of-mullah-bleeds-to-death-on-her-wedding-night

      “He said that raping me is his prayer to God”

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/08/he-said-that-raping-me-is-his-prayer-to-god

      As for brigandage, doesn’t he realize that Muhammed himself was a caravan raider and pirate? Jesus was not a pirate.

      And the bit about homophobia is grimly hilarious, given that his pious coreligionists are hanging gay people for cranes and throwing them off tall buildings.

      As appalling as all of this is, mostly we just want Muslims to stop raping and murdering us. How “Islamophobic”! sarc/off

      And I hate to inform muhammed here that the Infidel schooling him is not a “mr”, but actually a woman. How humiliating!

      And muhammed will have to provide a working link for me to be able to read what he is asking me to.

      More:

      all (sic) these obnoxious teachings were put into practice by the church, and they have great impacts on christian (sic) way of life,especially (sic) in the west.now (sic) devil trump vows to maintain the status and even more of these savageries.
      ………………………….

      What “savageries” might these be? Eschewing marrying nine-year-olds? Not using unbelievers as sex slaves? Abstaining from driving trucks into crowded Christmas Markets? Oh, the humanity!

      More:

      mr (sic) gravenimage, instead of addressing such issues i (sic) raised against your evil bible,you (sic) resort to insults on prophet muhammad (sic) and the quran without proper understanding of what the quran (sic) really teachs,which (sic) prophet muhammad (sic) demostrated (sic) as guiding models for future generations up to this time.
      ………………………….

      muhammed’s problems with the Bible are either vague–his references to “phornography”–or illusory, such as his frequent bizarre and baseless claim that the Bible instructs Christians to dip their hands into their daughter’s vaginas to see if they taste like wine. Of course, there is no such verse.

      And we are all too familiar with the foul model of the “Prophet” Muhammed–his deflowering a nine-year-old child; his raping a woman whose father, brothers, and husband he had just murdered; his beheading of up to 900 unarmed men of the Banu Quarayza tribe. All repulsive–and responsible for much of the Muslim savagery we see all over the world today.

      Yet more:

      you (sic) rather maciliously (sic) rely on the activities of the misguided terrorists groups whom you call pious muslims.how (sic) can a wickedman (sic) killing innocent children be refered (sic) to as pious?
      ………………………….

      Well, only if the reference is to pious *Muslims*. And note: devout Muslims do not consider any Infidels to be innocent.

      And muhammed himself supports violent Jihad–how these Jihadists are “misguided” he never says.

      More:

      such (sic) definition can only be found in devil trump’s (sic) dictionary and you mischiefmakers (sic) following him.
      ………………………….

      What is a “mischiefmaker” to Muslims? Anyone who resists being forced to submit to Islam.

      And I hate to inform him that Donald Trump does not have his own dictionary–any more than he is intending to impose laws requiring American women to walk about in the nude.

      More:

      mr (sic) gravenimage,if (sic) you are interested in genuine debate,read (sic) the article i (sic) refered (sic) you above
      ………………………….

      If muhammed provides a working link I will be happy to do so.

      More:

      and then read carefully books like:islamic (sic) law of war and peace by hamidullah,the (sic) emergence of arab (sic) nationalism,commentary (sic) on the holy quran by yusuf ali;all (sic) in english (sic).
      ………………………….

      I’ve read Yusuf Ali’s translation of the Qur’an–it is just as savage as every other translation. And why wouldn’t it be? The source material itself is barbaric.

      For instance, here is Yusuf Ali’s translation of the horrific “Sura of the Sword”, Qur’an 9:5:

      “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

      As I said; still horrifying.

      And I’ve also read Hamidullah. Among other barbarisms, he confirms that apostates from Islam are to be murdered.

      More:

      if (sic) you can read and understand arabic (sic) version of the quran (sic) and its commentaries like tantawy,qurtabi(from (sic) cordoba (sic) in the then muslim spain), ib kathir;it would have been better to enable you follow the debate. thank you.
      ………………………….

      I don’t read Classical Arabic; but then, I very much doubt that muhammed does, either. He has evaded this point, of course..

      And yes–I’ve read ibn Kathir. He also wrote Al-ijtihād fī ṭalab al-jihād–an apologia for violent Jihad.

      As for his commentary on the “Sura of the Sword”, he said that Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first caliph, used this and other verses to validate fighting anyone who either did not pay religious taxes to the Muslims or convert to Islam.

      Why would *any* of this make me think better of the appalling barbarism of Islam?

      What muhammed does not understand is that the more a civilized person learns about Islam, the clearer its utter savagery becomes.

    • Jack Diamond says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 11:33 am

      Islam is not only savage, it is vulgar. The Qur’an is replete with vulgar insults for disbelievers, “kaffir” itself has connotations of “filth” for Muslims, let alone calling disbelievers “dogs” “donkeys” “pigs” “monkeys”. The so-called prophet told someone to “bite your father’s penis” and his closest friend Abu Bakr told someone “Go suck on al-Lat’s clitoris!”. The Qur’an refers to marriage with the vulgar term “nikah” referring to the woman’s sexual organs. This fellow ibrahim is just being pious with his cursing. Allah curses the disbelievers and so do Mohammedans. This is the authentic translating of Islam.

      What’s amusing is his supposed outrage over the terrible things he accuses Christians and Jews of, which he somehow does not find terrible when they exist, for real, in Islam. Islam is synonymous with slavery. With genocide. With ‘homophobia’. With ‘brigandage’ (it’s how Muhammad made his living).
      With ‘sexism’ (a woman’s word is worth half a man because she is deficient in intelligence; right hand possessions; slavery). What an absurd little man, this ibrahim. I’m not aware of Jesus killing innocent children but I am aware of Muhammad saying “they are of them” when it came to bombarding women and children, and I’m aware of Muhammad presiding over the beheadings of some 800 bound men and BOYS of the Banu Qurayza. He calls the Bible devil-possessed but it is only Muhammad who admits to being devil-possessed and that the devil inspired verses of the Qur’an. He even invokes ibn Kathir as an authority when I’ve used ibn Kathir against him in other posts, with no rebuttal from him.

      Calling us mischief-makers invokes Qur’an 5:33, meaning we should all die excruciatingly painful deaths. Careful you aren’t given back what you are wishing on someone else, uncircumsized donkey for brains.

      • gravenimage says

        Dec 22, 2016 at 6:18 pm

        Fine post, Jack.

  15. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 22, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    oh mrs or miss gravenimage,you are a filthy christian christian lady.that is interesting.i hope you will not go near devil trump,he will sexually assault you,unless you are a volunteer in which case you have no remedy under the law of tort. mrs/miss gravenimage,it seems that you have not gone through the article i refered to you in the net.had it been that you had gone through it, our debate would have been fruitful for the benefit of users of this forum.instead, you have chosen that archaech style of criticism against islam by christian evangelist deceivers.those with objective minds,even in the west, have dismissed it as rubbish.we have been telling you that those verses of sword you have been refering are describing ecounters at the battlefield between muslim fightiers and enemy combatants.allah is urging muslims to use all fighting techniques to subdue the enemy,like striking necks or heads with sword or any other weapon at their disposal.the verses are not saying wherever you see a unbeliever kill him.what about numerous verses talking about peace treaties with unbelievers,including treaties of alliance with non-hostile unbelievers.you refered to caliph abubakar who fought rebel apostates.is there anything wrong with that?will trump allow any section of the united states to revolt?is that not treason punishable under american law? you asked if can understand classical arabic.yes, i can.i studied it upto graduate level.again,my mother tongue is arabic from arabic speaking country.however, i had much of my studies on law and economics.if devil trump drops his anti-islam policy, i can render any consultancy service to his govt.but i hate anyone who concocts lies agaist islam as you have been doing.

    • Jack Diamond says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 2:36 pm

      hahahahahahahahahahaha …. behold the Muslim lawyer

      • gravenimage says

        Dec 22, 2016 at 7:54 pm

        Yes–this is especially hilarious, Jack. I guess when a Muslim devotes all of his time to mulling over the requisite size of stones needed to wipe his *ss–and worse, to stone rape victims to death–that he really comes to believe that he is an important legal mind.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 7:00 pm

      More from appalling Muslim apologist ibrahim itace muhammed:

      oh (sic) mrs (sic) or miss (sic) gravenimage,you (sic) are a filthy christian (sic) christian (sic) lady.that (sic) is interesting.i (sic) hope you will not go near devil trump,he (sic) will sexually assault you,
      ……………………………

      Absurd. Women in the West does not go in fear of being assaulted by Donald Trump–would that one could say the same for muhammed’s coreligionists…

      More:

      unless you are a volunteer in which case you have no remedy under the law of tort.
      ……………………………

      Well, this is just ridiculous. Volunteering for a political campaign does not give the candidate the legal right to sexually assault you.

      Why is muhammed so woefully ignorant about civilized Western law?

      More:

      mrs/miss gravenimage,it (sic) seems that you have not gone through the article i (sic) refered (sic) to you in the net.had (sic) it been that you had gone through it, our debate would have been fruitful for the benefit of users of this forum.
      ……………………………

      muhammed did not provide a working link–or even anything cogent enough to Google. Hence, I have no idea what claptrap he was linking to–and he does not clarify here.

      More:

      instead, (sic) you have chosen that archaech (sic) style of criticism against islam (sic) by christian (sic) evangelist deceivers.
      ……………………………

      Actually, every point I cited was not just Islamic, but were references that muhammed *himself* chose to use. Note that he cannot actually refute a single thing I said.

      More:

      those (sic) with objective minds,even (sic) in the west, have dismissed it as rubbish.
      ……………………………

      Dismissed what as rubbish, exactly?

      More:

      we (sic) have been telling you that those verses of sword you have been refering (sic) are describing ecounters (sic) at the battlefield between muslim (sic) fightiers (sic) and enemy combatants.allah(sic) is urging muslims (sic) to use all fighting techniques to subdue the enemy,like (sic) striking necks or heads with sword or any other weapon at their disposal.the (sic) verses are not saying wherever you see a unbeliever kill him.
      ……………………………

      Actually, this is exactly what it is says. Here is Qur’an 9:5, the Sura of the Sword, again:

      “And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush…”

      The words of his own foul tome belie the idea that this only refers to a formal battle–in fact, ambushes are the antithesis of formal, open battles.

      Yet more:

      what (sic) about numerous verses talking about peace treaties with unbelievers,including (sic) treaties of alliance with non-hostile unbelievers.you (sic) refered (sic) to caliph (sic) abubakar (sic) who fought rebel apostates
      ……………………………

      And here muhammed confirms that every apostate is considered a “rebel” and may be murdered by pious Muslims. *Ugh*.

      As for those “peace treaties”–or Hudnas–Muhammed broke every treaty ever made with him, and by the end of his life had driven out, enslaved, or murdered every one of these peoples save those who submitted to Islam. Here’s more on such Hudnas:

      http://wikiislam.net/index.php?title=Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah&redirect=no

      More:

      .is (sic) there anything wrong with that?
      ……………………………

      Well, yes. No other faith slaughters those who choose to leave it.

      More:

      will (sic) trump (sic) allow any section of the united states to revolt?is (sic) that not treason punishable under american (sic) law?
      ……………………………

      More proof that Muslims have no concept of separation of church and state. Leaving Christianity or Judaism or any other religion in the United States is not treason. Why is muhammed so shockingly ignorant?

      And more again:

      you (sic) asked if can understand classical arabic.yes, (sic) i (sic) can.i (sic) studied it upto (sic) graduate level.again,my (sic) mother tongue is arabic (sic) from arabic (sic) speaking country.
      ……………………………

      muhammed is claiming that he grew up speaking Mudari (also known as Qur’anic) Arabic? There is no Arabic-speaking country in the world where Mudari Arabic is spoken; this is purely a Liturgical language now, and has been for centuries. It has not been a spoken language since the 9th century.

      Modern Arabic has linguistic roots in Mudari Arabic, but it is *not* the same.

      Is muhammed ignorant–or does he just hope that we are?

      This would be like a modern Italian claiming that he automatically speaks Latin.

      More:

      however, (sic) i (sic) had much of my studies on law and economics.
      ……………………………

      I’m afraid someone wasted their money. muhammed claims to believe that having moochers on the dole leave will cause financial collapse, when it would actually improve the host nation’s finances.

      And more:

      if (sic) devil trump (sic) drops his anti-islam (sic) policy, i (sic) can render any consultancy service to his govt (sic).
      ……………………………

      Said by someone who is semi-literate and believes that an American president can–and will–pass a law mandating that all American women walk about in the nude.

      I’m sure any occupant of the White House would be falling all over himself hoping to engage such valuable services…sarc/off

      And lastly:

      but (sic) i (sic) hate anyone who concocts lies agaist (sic) islam (sic) as you have been doing.
      ……………………………

      What lies have those been? So far, in over a dozen posts, muhammed has not been able to debunk a single thing I have said about his foul creed–nor will he be able to.

    • Custos Custodum says

      Dec 22, 2016 at 7:26 pm

      So Ibe wants to get a job working for the “devil”?

      • gravenimage says

        Dec 22, 2016 at 7:55 pm

        I noticed that as well, Custos.

  16. ibrahim itace muhammed says

    Dec 23, 2016 at 2:09 am

    mrs/miss,why all your responses are bare denial maintaining your parochial method of criticism against islam?you are saying westernern are civilised ,and therefore not sexually assault women.it is lie and show of arrogance.what did devil trump do to those ladies who complained against him?do you think i never stayed in the united state and how your beast way of life ? you have indiscriminate sex like donkeys and pigs producing children outside marital ties.you yourself may not be married , yet you have been having sex.when you finish you only use toilet paper leaving remnants of sperm to acculate to make your private part produce disgusting bad smells.you accused muslims of using their hand to clean with water.unknown to you,one has to use toilet paper or any cleaning object first before using water to make it neater, and then wash hand used with soap.your life is horrible, you are shit. i dont want even imagine the way your life looks like.it could cause me to vomit as i did in newyork.good bye!

    • Champ says

      Dec 23, 2016 at 2:15 am

      “good bye!”

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Are you leaving? For good, I hope.

    • gravenimage says

      Dec 23, 2016 at 6:46 pm

      Yet more from tedious Muslim apologist for evil ibrahim itace muhammed:

      mrs/miss,why (sic) all your responses are bare denial maintaining your parochial method of criticism against islam (sic)?
      ………………………………………

      How are my criticisms of Islam “parochial”? They are either accurate or not, and muhammed has not been able to refute a single one. Instead, he either ignores my points, or else continues to defend such horrors as the murder of apostates.

      More:

      you (sic) are saying westernern (sic) are civilised ,and (sic) therefore not sexually assault women.it (sic) is lie and show of arrogance.
      ………………………………………

      I have never once said that sexual assault does not occur in the West–I said that here it is a *crime*. In Islam rape of Infidels is not just condoned, it is actually *sacralized* in Islamic texts. The foul “Prophet” himself raped captives and sex slaves, and in the Hadith even sneered at his “Companions” for *not* raping their victims.

      Not only is sexual assault actually illegal in the civilized West–and, yes, criminalizing rape *is* civilized, no matter what the barbaric muhammed may believe–but it is far rarer among Infidels. In Oslo over the past five years *every single stranger rape* has been by immigrants–almost certainly entirely by Muslims.

      And why would this surprise? Christianity and secular Western society teaches that assaulting women is wrong–Islam teaches just the opposite if the victims are unbelievers. By their fruit you shall know them…

      More:

      what (sic) did devil trump (sic) do to those ladies who complained against him?do (sic) you think i (sic) never stayed in the united (sic) state (sic) and how your beast way of life ?
      ………………………………………

      Actually, it is unclear what Trump did, besides engaging in crude locker room talk. If he *did* act inappropriately with women, I condemn his actions.

      And all muhammed has said, quite implausibly, is that a woman on public transit in New York City put her “private part” on him and demanded he “romance” her right on the bus. I have been taking public transit for decades and have never seen or heard of such a thing, so it seems pretty damn suspect.

      Given that muhammed has also made the truly bizarre claims that the US mass-imports donkeys for sexual use and that most Americans are born in “baby factories”, this is actually the *least* implausible claim he has made.

      Yet more:

      you (sic) have indiscriminate sex like donkeys and pigs producing children outside marital ties.you (sic) yourself may not be married , (sic) yet you have been having sex.when (sic) you finish you only use toilet paper leaving remnants of sperm to acculate (sic) to make your private part produce disgusting bad smells.
      ………………………………………

      I have noted that I have been with my husband for over twenty-eight years now; there are quite a few others here with loving, long-term marriages as well, including Robert Spencer himself. This is also true of Champ, who replied to his repellent ejaculations.

      Note that muhammed has never addressed child marriage, forced marriage, polygamy, and the rape of sex slaves–all of which are considered perfectly “chaste” under Islam. Consensual pre-marital relationships are *far* for moral than any of these horrors–unless one is a barbaric Mohammedan, of course.

      Far less important, of course, but muhammed appears to believe that the use of toilet paper is a substitution for bathing in the West–of course, it is not. And we invented modern plumbing; every bathroom has a sink as well as a bath or shower; public restrooms have banks of sinks, well supplied with soap.

      I have noted that Westerners are the cleanest people in the world, and that Americans are notable for their cleanliness even among Westerners–it is even a bit of a national joke.

      muhammed is not really referring to good hygiene–many Muslims are disturbingly filthy. What he means is Islamic ritual cleanliness, by which no Infidel may be anything but “Najis”–similar to urine, feces, and dead bodies–even if he showers twice a day and obsessively uses anti-bacterial wipes. The famously fastidious Felix Unger would be nothing but a “filthy Infidel” as far as muhammed is concerned.

      More:

      you (sic) accused muslims (sic) of using their hand to clean with water.unknown (sic) to you,one (sic) has to use toilet paper or any cleaning object first before using water to make it neater, and then wash hand used with soap.your (sic) life is horrible, you are shit. i (sic) dont (sic) want even imagine the way your life looks like.it (sic) could cause me to vomit as i (sic) did in newyork.good (sic) bye!
      ………………………………………

      Actually, I never mentioned Muslims using water at all–muhmmed’s reading comprehension really is shockingly poor. I said that Muslims used stones to wipe. This is not an “accusation”–this is painstakingly laid out by the “Prophet” himself. There are numerous Hadith stipulating that Muslims are to use an odd number of stones; there are thousands of Fatwas issued on the tedious subject of how one is to enter a restroom.

      But here is the most important point; while Westerners are very clean, we understand that this is not a moral issue beyond a point. Sure–being clean is considerate to others, a not inconsiderable thing, and keeping clean is good for one’s health–but it is not really an ethical issue.

      That muhammed is obsessed with bathroom ritual while saying not a word against oppression, rape, enslavement, and mass murder of innocent people is *very* telling.

      I would *much* rather deal with someone with indifferent hygiene–or even the sort of person you would not want to have to sit downwind from at a bus stop–any day of the week than with one of muhammed’s savage coreligionists, who believes that it is moral to “marry” a nine-old-child, “Honor Kill” a woman who resists forced marriage, to mass-rape Infidel women on New Year’s Eve, or to drive a semi-truck into a bunch of innocent people at a Christmas Market.

      As unpleasant as dealing with this vicious Mohammedan has been, it is *very* instructive as to what passes for Muslim “morality”.

      I join Champ in hoping that muhammed has decided to leave for good after finding that he is making no headway with his claptrap here among savvy Anti-Jihadists–just as his coreligionist Mubarak, that vicious apologist for Muslim rape, appears to have finally done.

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