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Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Scotland: Provost of cathedral where Qur’an was read denounces “appeasement” of “those who are Islamophobic”

Jan 15, 2017 2:22 pm By Robert Spencer

Aside from what is in the BBC article below, Fr. Kelvin Holdsworth wrote:

Those who came heard a confident Christian community proclaim their faith in Christ in no uncertain terms. We say the Nicene Creed at St Mary’s and we believe it. Indeed, I sometimes have to tell people that I say it without my fingers crossed. Our proclamation of the divinity of Christ is at the centre of every Eucharist that takes place every Sunday. And so is the greeting of peace which we offer to one another. Peace be with you. Shalom. Salaam….

Frankly, we think it is a good thing that Muslims are coming to church and hearing us proclaim the Gospel of Christ….

The truth is, people confident in their faith can often learn most from one another. We are confident in our Christian faith and enjoy sharing it.

The most perceptive comment this week came from someone who knows me well. “This is just absurd – St Mary’s doesn’t do syncretism it does hospitality”.

That’s it in a nutshell. We don’t do syncretism, we do hospitality….

“We don’t do syncretism, we do hospitality.” Very well. But Fr. Kelvin Holdsworth fails to explain why “hospitality” required that a Qur’an verse that denied the divinity of Christ, a central tenet of Christianity, was read out. Nor did he note that no mosque in Scotland or anywhere else is likely to feature a New Testament reading proclaiming the divinity of Christ: the “hospitality” goes only one way.

“Our proclamation of the divinity of Christ is at the centre of every Eucharist that takes place every Sunday”: apparently Holdsworth’s defense for featuring this Qur’an passage consists of noting that the cathedral often proclaims the divinity of Christ, so one denial of it isn’t bad. That’s like saying “I have met thousands of people in my life and only murdered one of them, so I uphold the sanctity of life.”

But Holdsworth has more important things on his mind: he “cannot believe that moderate churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards those who are Islamophobic.” Appeasement of Islamic supremacists? That’s fine. But “appeasement of those who are Islamophobic”? That’s over the line!

Note also his sly moral equivalence in referring to “moderate churches,” as if there were “extremist” and “moderate” Christians just as there are “extremist” and “moderate” Muslims — a central, albeit wholly fictional, talking point of the contemporary Left.

“Church ‘deeply distressed’ by Koran offence, says primus,” BBC, January 15, 2016:

The head of the Scottish Episcopal Church says the Church is “deeply distressed” at the offence caused by the reading of a passage from the Koran in a Glasgow cathedral.

The comments of the Church Primus, the Most Rev David Chillingworth, follow criticism that Islamic verses were read during an Epiphany service.

In his blog, he also condemned the abuse received by St Mary’s Cathedral….

The cathedral’s provost, the Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, said the reading was aimed at promoting understanding between the two faiths.

In his sermon on Sunday, he told the congregation there had been a “storm of abuse” from “10,000 Christian voices” over the incident.

He said he “cannot believe that moderate churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards those who are Islamophobic and particularly not towards the recently invigorated far-right media.”.

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Filed Under: "Islamophobia", dhimmitude, Featured, Scotland, United Kingdom, Useful idiots Tagged With: Glasgow, Kelvin Holdsworth, St. Mary's Cathedral


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Comments

  1. Mirren10 says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:35 pm

    I wrote to the Provost, enquiring exactly when Scottish Episcopalians will be invited into mosques to read verses from the Bible, proclaiming Christ’s divinity as The Son of God.

    Answer came there none. No doubt my email and follow up letter are deemed to be ‘islamophobic’.

    As I have said many times before, so called ‘Christians’ of the ilk of this Provost have no real belief in the tenets of Christianity. If they did, they would never lend themselves to such a blasphemous travesty.

    • Jon Sobieski says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 3:20 pm

      On the bright side, a cleric’s viewpoint of islam is a dead giveaway where his loyalties lie.

    • Wellington says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 3:56 pm

      Good for you, Mirren. My compliments.

    • Peggy says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 7:04 pm

      Great that you did that. I wouldn’t imagine they would reply to anyone.
      I wouldn’t let them read that evil book in my toilet let alone a church. Even my bowels demand more respect.
      This traitor has undone all that was good in that church. If it was me I would not come back to that church until it was blessed again and an exorcist had a go at it.

      • willem says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 1:48 pm

        Well said Peggy. Only an exorcist can make this good again. Do you know any?

        Greetings Wim

        • Peggy says

          Jan 16, 2017 at 6:06 pm

          I wish I did.
          I am so mad that we are left to fend for ourselves. Our leaders from all walks of life have abandoned us.

    • Itinerant says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 9:10 pm

      Meanwhile we have Muslim propagandists, sorry an ‘educational charity’ indoctrinating Scottish schoolchildren with an utterly false narrative;
      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/01/uk-taught-by-muhammad-program-clears-up-misconceptions-about-islam-being-connected-to-terrorism
      “Taught By Muhammad have given educational presentations to 1200 secondary school pupils during a two year period in an attempt to address misconceptions pupils may have about Islam….the program clears up “misconceptions” about Islam being connected to terrorism………..Rizwan and his colleagues are able to ascertainis that 98% of people say they understand the true meaning of Islam after the presentations.”
      https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/348323/educational-charity-out-to-show-dundonians-the-true-meaning-of-islam/
      Yup- Islamic jihadi terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with Islam- a position that the SNP- the Islamo-leftist, ‘progressive’ fake-nationalist party promote- usually after the latest jihadist atrocity, when Nicola Sturgeon’s fist port of call is the mosque- because it has nooooothing to do with Islam.

      The same lies are being disseminated across Europe,
      https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/10/hugh-fitzgerald-what-do-french-textbooks-teach-about-islam-part-i
      while many mosques and madrases teach a far more ‘authentic’ Islam- it all leaves Western youngsters singularly unprepared for the coming decades.

    • patriotliz says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 9:48 am

      Tweet Fr. Kelvin Holdsworth @thurible
      If perchance non-believers would be invited into a Mosque, it would be for the sole purpose of taqiyyia indoctrination to dupe the stupid kaffir.

      • gravenimage says

        Jan 18, 2017 at 1:55 am

        Very disturbing–thank for posting this, patriotliz.

    • gravenimage says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 7:56 pm

      Good for you, Mirren. Sadly, I am not at all surprised that you received no answer.

  2. marc says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:38 pm

    Next Shabbat my synagogue is inviting muslims to read koran 3:28 “…Don’t take unbelievers as friends and allies, unless it is for “fear of them,”” /sarc off
    Seriously, I know they can’t refrain from doing their dawah given any chance, but their choice of sura can only have been to humiliate their hosts rather that just the regular dawah.

    • Jan Favre says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 6:33 am

      You got it exactly right, who ever does not believe Muhammad is the prophet of God, is an unbeliever for Muslims.

      • Carolyne says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 3:00 pm

        While I am not a Christian, but an unbeliever in any religion, I am sure that the divinity of Christ is not “A” central tenet of Christianity, but “THE” central tenet of Christianity. To allow someone to read a Muslim text which denies this in a Christian church is inexplicable.

    • gravenimage says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 8:04 pm

      Spot on, Marc–this was all about humiliating their dhimmi hosts.

  3. nm says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:39 pm

    Key facts regarding islam –

    – The word – Islam, means submission.
    – Islam and sharia law are a single religious, social, legal, and political system.
    – All muslims have to obey the quran, and follow what muhammad said and did.
    – Islamic law, sharia, is derived from quran, muhammad’s actions and muhammad’s commands. Therefore, islam is not just quran.
    – Islam = Quran + Muhammad’s actions + Muhammad’s commands.
    – Muhammad’s example contains precedents for every unsavory aspect in islam. All violence and every terrorist act by muslims is hence justified in islam, even if it is not explicitly mentioned in quran.
    – Hadiths are the source for muhammad’s words, actions, and habits.
    – Under islamic law, terrorism killing of non-muslims by muslims, is not a crime.
    – Under islamic law, raping non-muslim women is not a crime.
    – Under islamic law, lying to, and deceiving non-muslims, is encouraged. At times, it is mandatory.
    – Radical islam and moderate islam are the same islam applied with different levels of strictness.
    – Radical islam is islam applied stringently and thoroughly, in its entirety. Moderate islam is the same islam applied partially, in a less rigorous fashion.
    – The most monumental and concealed fact about quran – Abrogation in quran – Because of this, the later verses in quran, demanding violence against non-muslims, cancel out the earlier verses regarding tolerance. Thus, the oft-quoted ‘tolerant islam’ narrative is false, deceptive and misleading.
    – In islam, the world is divided into 2 parts. 1] Dar al-Islam – House of Islam 2] Dar al-harb – House of war. Dar al-harb is the world of non-muslims and the region of perpetual warfare. Muslims are required to wage war against this world, until it comes under the house of islam, or is destroyed.
    – Muhammad was once a refugee taken in by the jewish city of medina. Within 5 years, he had driven out, executed, or enslaved every jew therein.
    – Crusades were self-defense by christians, which were a response to 400 years of wanton, unprovoked, murderous assaults and land usurpation by muslims.
    – Under islamic law, the penalty for apostasy is death.
    – Islamism is islamic revival movement, which is working toward implementing islamic values in all spheres of human life, throughout the world. Islamism seeks to reorder the governments and societies in accordance with sharia law. Millions of muslims globally, are acting in its furtherance.
    – Muslim terrorists are terrorists for non-muslims, but under islamic law, they are fighters for islam – Jihadis. Jihad is a fundamental obligation of muslims.
    – One of the 5 pillars of islam is – Zakat. It is similar to a religious tax on muslims. Zakat money is used for 8 causes. The 7th cause out of these 8 is – Jihad fisabilillah – Jihad for the sake of allah. Which means, a portion of zakat money is given to jihadis – the muslim terrorists.

    • Lucia Bartoli says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 4:00 pm

      Amen!

    • Louise M. says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 10:27 am

      Thank you for your post, nm. It very well summarizes all one needs to know about Islam.
      I suppose that people who visit this Website have different levels of awareness and knowledge. Many may be very knowledgeable, others may come for the first time.
      So thank you again for sharing !

      • nm says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 7:33 pm

        You are most welcome Louise and thank you.

      • dumbledoresarmy says

        Jan 17, 2017 at 3:35 am

        I have been reading here since late 2006, and posting regularly since April 2007. Ten years!

        And when I first came on board, so to speak, I *also* – being a print addict, and insatiably curious – spent much more of my time than I probably ought to have done, reading my way back through the archives, from the very beginning of jihadwatch. So I know how this forum has functioned from the start, and the diehard stalwarts, and other brilliant people who have posted from time to time.

        What I do know is that after every latest jihadist atrocity in the west *new people* turned up; people who mostly knew little about Islam, but had become *curious*, and worried. They started to poke about on the internet.. and it didn’t take them long, interestingly enough, to find their way in *here*. And then they learned! And fast, and how! One thing I’ve done, all through these ten years, is pay attention to people’s descriptions of how and why they ended up here. Always interesting.

        I’m sure it’s still happening. And there are more counter-jihad sites out there, with more information, than there were when Mr Spencer first hung out his shingle in cyberspace, way back at the end of 2003, only two years after September 11 2001.

        This site is still educating and helping to build solidarity and connection amongst worried infidels from all over. Some of Mr Spencer’s first students have become teachers or at least teacher-aides, in their own right. And I am sure that a LOT of people, from many countries, have done and are doing things… concrete stuff, on the ground, in lots of ways, to push back against jihad; but they are not going to go into specifics, here, because they know that “the walls have ears”, and that the Enemy eavesdrops on our conversations.

        • gravenimage says

          Jan 18, 2017 at 2:09 am

          All very true, Dumbledore’s Army–and many more read here than ever post.

  4. Achmed says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:51 pm

    He said he “cannot believe that moderate churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards those who are Islamophobic and particularly not towards the recently invigorated far-right media.”.

    The far-left “churches”, such as the Anglican, Presbyterian, and with special emphasis given to the church of Rome …

    I cannot believe that these alt-left churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards mohammedans and islamophiliacs.

    • Elton says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 7:39 pm

      Agreed. Just want to add how tired I am of the left, especially in Europe, always referring to anyone who is even 1 second right of centre as being ‘far-right’ while being oblivious of the fact that they themselves are so far out in left field we need binoculars to see them.

  5. james.mich says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:53 pm

    There is no “moderate” doctrine that a circle sometime has 360 degrees, sometimes 240, but sometimes 380, 800, or 20. There is only ever one correct answer to the question, “How many degrees are there in a circle ?” – and that that number is precisely 360. Not 359.99999… or less, not 360.00001.,, or more, but exactly 360. Any other answer is totally wrong, always, in all circumstances, in all places, at all times, no matter what.

    IOW, the answer to the question is always the “extreme” one: 360 exactly.

    And the truth of Christian doctrine, though of a very different kind, is equally “extreme”, “immoderate”. Jesus Christ is always the One in Whom Alone there is salvation – as per Acts 4.12. There is no salvation in anyone else, and never will be. No Christian can ever have the right to deny this, or to obscure it, whether this is inconvenient for ecumenical or inter-religious relations, or not.

    This whole stramash is a scandal.

  6. John Galt III says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 2:59 pm

    The best and brightest in Scotland left there centuries ago and came to America, What’s left is a third rate Socialist cesspool and that will soon be Islamic. There is just enough Scotch Whisky there so the local fools can at least be inebriated as their decline into nothingness occurs. Then Islam shuts down the alcohol business and that’s that.

    • R Russell says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 4:47 pm

      JG III. What an arrogant obnoxious person you come across as.. It is my country you have cast on the scrap heap. The least you could do, instead of insulting us would be to pray for revival the length and breadth of the land so the Muslims as well as the Scots would find the Jesus of the Bible and know their sins are forgiven. It will have a far more lasting effect than the drivel you are suggesting

      • John Magee says

        Jan 15, 2017 at 7:01 pm

        I think you are more than aware than the rest of us that Scotland is heading down the same self destructive path of opening its borders to an Islamic and a 3rd world migration invasion no different than Sweden, France, The Netherlands, England, and other European countries over the past 20 years. The majority of Muslim migrants have no desire to assimilate. They come to dominate and conqueror. A country like Scotland with a total population which is less than many large cities in the overpopulated 3rd world will easily become the 3rd world by 2040.That’s only 24 years from today. I hope when Islam becomes the largest cult in your beautiful country Muslims are as tolerant of your descendants as the Scots who welcomed Islam during the migration invasion of the UK in the late 20th and early 21st century. This warning also applies to the USA, Canada, and Australia. Enjoy the Scottish Nationalists (leftists) slogan “One Scotland many cultures”. Our grandchildren and their children for generations will curse us for our stupidity and neglect.

        • Michael Copeland says

          Jan 16, 2017 at 6:52 am

          Islam INSTRUCTS muslims not to integrate.
          Islam INSTRUCTS muslims they must dominate.

          “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision.”
          Koran 33:36
          part of Islam’s rules, with death (vigilante-style and penalty-free) for denying it.

      • gravenimage says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 8:07 pm

        I know there are still patriotic Scots–I hope you stand up for your civilized society!

    • ECAW says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 5:03 am

      Apart from David Hume, Adam Smith, James Watt, James Clerk Maxwell, Thomas Telford, Joseph Lister, Lord Kelvin, Alexander Fleming, Robert Watson-Watt, Robert Burns, Walter Scott, Robert Louis Stevenson, Arthur Conan Doyle (and Denis Law).

      • gravenimage says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 8:22 pm

        Scots laid the foundation for much of the Enlightenment.

    • Carolyne says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 3:33 pm

      “He whose love is given over well will look on Helen’s face in hell,
      Whilst they whose love is thin and wise will see John Knox in paradise.”

      Or perhaps Mohammed.

  7. locomotivebreath1901 says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 3:07 pm

    “That’s it in a nutshell. We don’t do syncretism, we do hospitality….”

    Hospitality is a practise, not the goal. Christ called the Church is called to a Great Commission. Perhaps this guy needs to review his Bible.

  8. davej says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 3:32 pm

    “Appeasement to Islamophobia”. How do these people manage to get everything backwards?

  9. utis says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 3:38 pm

    Ecumenism, my “foot”! If they’re so ecumenical, why not Sunday readings from the Bhagavad Gita or the Lotus Sutra? This action is just spittle-licking groveling to their new masters. If Hindus had flown planes into office buildings or blown up buses and trains, the cleric would be sacrificing a bull to the goddess Kali.
    And if that sura reading was in Arabic, then where is the “understanding”? Hospitality? Repulsive toadying!

    • Carolyne says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 3:38 pm

      How about the Kama Sutra?

      • Peggy says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 6:10 pm

        It’s coming.

      • gravenimage says

        Jan 18, 2017 at 2:16 am

        It may be extremely inappropriate, but at least in the Kama Sutra no one is denigrating the unbelievers and threatening to oppress and slaughter them.

  10. Milad Meah says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 3:46 pm

    Does Fr Holdsworth know Regarding Quran 4/159 what Muslim Gospel (Hadith) Bukhari Vol 3 Bk 43 Hadith 656 says? Jesus will come, break the cross and KILL the pigs (Jews), Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it L0L. Allah and his accountant Muhammad are economists.

  11. Lucia Bartoli says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 3:57 pm

    If those who were correctly attempting to chastise that parish for its loss of sanity would now form a coalition and withhold their charity/donations/tithes, etc., and ADVISE the local bishop of that withdrawal, then those churches would start paying attention. I know that clergy are also called “shepherds” and “pastors” of the believers (flock) but that should not be interpreted as them being sheep. What a sad state of events. My grandson-in-law, from Gillingham (Kent) needs to return home for a visit with family and his dying “Nan” but they may not be possible. What was seen as a good and loving visit with a bit of free time to enjoy his homeland (WITH OUR FAMILY INCLUDED=7 persons spending money on lodging, food, airfare, etc.) is now reduced to MAYBE just him going alone, and then coming back within a week. The UK and these p c false priests need to rethink their politics and belief systems. Anyway, to the priest–say after me…”I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth–and in JESUS CHRIST, His only Son, Who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried…” Got it? Read it, repeat it, pray it, and beg the Lord of Hosts to smile kindly upon you and to lead you back to your faith–which you have denied. Acknowledge that you have lead your flock astray…not unlike the Judas goat. God help you!

    • Carolyne says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 4:06 pm

      I’m sorry Ms. Bartoli, but I don’t understand how this discussion of the church in Dundee somehow prevents your grandson-in-law from taking the trip he planned and now can manage just a short visit. I sympathize, but don’t see the connection.

  12. Angemon says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    The head of the Scottish Episcopal Church says the Church is “deeply distressed” at the offence caused by the reading of a passage from the Koran in a Glasgow cathedral.

    Maybe the head of the Scottish Episcopal Church should ask himself if his congregation should offer no reaction to seeing the divinity of Christ denied in their church.

    He said he “cannot believe that moderate churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards those who are Islamophobic and particularly not towards the recently invigorated far-right media.”

    Great, another SJW… Look, you airhead: your religion is based on three things:

    a) Jesus Christ is the son of God
    b) Jesus Christ died on the cross
    c) Jesus Christ resurrected

    Do you think that people being upset at seeing a) denied on a church is them being “islamophobic” or “right-wing”?

    • R Russell says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 4:51 pm

      Maybe someone should tell him that when comparing the character of the Mahdi and the antichrist, it is hard to believe they are not one and the same person.
      Maybe we would need to explain who the antichrist is first.

    • Alexius Comnenus says

      Jan 15, 2017 at 6:59 pm

      In our time to worship God is generating islamophobia. Believe it or not!
      What a mess all over the world. And all this was created by the advance of islam.
      But I have tones of hopes.

  13. Kay says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 4:13 pm

    Third, it is appalling that he does not listen to others in the Body and instead only discounts them by calling them “islamophobes” and “far right.”
    Second, it is appalling that he did not listen to the distress his superior voiced and repent.
    First, it is appalling that he betrayed Jesus by allowing a blasphemous chant during his church service. It is wrong in itself, and furthermore does not achieve his stated purpose of increasing understanding between the faiths. If he wanted to increase understanding he would include in his sermon the Christian truth (God so loved the world that He sent His Son . . .) and point out how that is different from the Koran and invite Muslims to take part in the salvation that Jesus offers. There’s nothing so wonderful about “Muslims coming to church” if it isn’t even church!

    Jesus himself had something to say about “moderate” churches in Revelation 3:
    I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!  So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

  14. Michael Copeland says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 5:20 pm

    “…people confident in their faith can often learn most from one another…” – Provost.

    “If anyone desire a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him”
    Koran 3:85, part of Islam’s rules.
    “If anyone leaves his religion [Islam], kill him” – Mohammed,
    from the Hadith, another part of Islam’s rules.

    Not even the kindest sweetest muslim has any leeway on that subject.

    • Carolyne says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 4:09 pm

      My favorite is the nonsense that a rock speaks to a Muslim and tells him, “There is a Jew hiding behind me. Kill him!”

      • Peggy says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 6:15 pm

        That must’ve been his pet rock and his name was Mohammed too.

  15. Michael Copeland says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    Memo to the Provost:

    “It is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions such as “Christianity” and “Judaism” are acceptable…..”
    Manual of Islamic Law, “Reliance of the Traveller”, w4.

  16. mortimer says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    It is truly blasphemous in the midst of Christian worship for someone to read a text denying the Christian fundamentals. Is that hard to understand.

    It is one thing for ‘views’ and ‘opinions’ to be exchanged in a polite discussion, but worship is ‘sacred time’ in which such bald-faced denials are totally out of place.

    This was a blunder of illogic on the part of the bishop and provost.

    • Carolyne says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 3:46 pm

      The Ex- Archbishop of Canterbury, Ronan Williams, was formally inducted into the Druid religion. I don’t know for what purpose he did this, but it sounds similar to becoming a Muslim.

      • gravenimage says

        Jan 16, 2017 at 9:15 pm

        “Druids”–neo-Pagans–are mostly twits, but I’d take them any day of the week over Muslims.

  17. Jack Holan says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 6:52 pm

    His Superiors need to reassign him to the Mid-East continuing education. It will make or break him.

  18. Morton Doodslag says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 7:29 pm

    For and Against.

    Against: Appeasing “Islamophobes”.
    For: Appeasing genocidal Muslims bent on mass murder, mass rape, and mass-extermination.

    Got it.

  19. Baucent says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    I wonder if Fr. Kevin would extend similar “hospitality” to a Satanic group wanting to read from their ‘Bible” during a church service?

  20. Singh the Sikh says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 8:24 pm

    What a fuckhead!

  21. LR says

    Jan 15, 2017 at 11:30 pm

    “The cathedral’s provost, the Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, said the reading was aimed at promoting understanding between the two faiths.”…

    “We don’t do syncretism, we do hospitality.”

    I am just left scratching my head when I read news items such as this. What about the persecution of Coptics and other Christians in Muslim dominated lands? Where is the understanding and support to help them, and demand ‘hospitality’ for them?

    • dumbledoresarmy says

      Jan 17, 2017 at 3:43 am

      “I am just left scratching my head when I read news items such as this. What about the persecution of Coptics and other Christians in Muslim dominated lands? Where is the understanding and support to help them, and demand ‘hospitality’ for them?”

      Yes.

      Perhaps you should email the Provost and ask him exactly that question.

      Ask him whether his Cathedral is prepared to get in touch with Barnabas Fund and *sponsor* persecuted Assyrian Catholic Christians – from Iraq and Syria – to come to Scotland, via Barnabas’s “Safe Havens” program. Ask him whether he’s prepared to demand that the UK government, and the Scots regional government, give *priority* to persecuted Christians, when offering humanitarian visas.

  22. Guest says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 2:35 am

    He’s breaking the first commandment

  23. Mark A says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 2:59 am

    He said he “cannot believe that moderate churches in the West should follow a policy of appeasement towards those who are Islamophobic and particularly not towards the recently invigorated far-right media.”.?

    This statement from the Very Rev. Kelvin Holdsworth leaves no doubt about his politics.

    Those of us who have read the Koran and know exactly what it says about the “People of the Book” and all non-Muslims are under no illusions about what Muslims think of us.

    “Inter-faith dialogue” is an illusion. The “dialogue” will be one sided, with Muslims dictating to the rest of us if they are in a position to do it.

    If the Very Rev. Kelvin Holdsworth considers me an “Islamophobe” because I’ve read the Koran and I take what it says at face value, then too bad. After reading the Very Rev. Kelvin Holdsworth’s comments I have absolutely zero respect for the Very Rev. Kelvin Holdsworth.

    “The Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, said the reading was aimed at promoting understanding between the two faiths.” My message to the ery Rev Kelvin Holdsworth is that I’ve read the Koran and I know the treatment I would get at the hands of Muslims. AS just one example, Sura 9 says that Christians like me are to be offered the choices of conversion to Islam, acceptance of second class status with willing submission to Muslims and payment of protection money (the jizya) to Muslims, or death at the hands of Muslims.

    The Koran is unequivocal about that and that is all the “promoting understanding between the two faiths” that I need. I understand Sura 9 very clearly.

    If his boss, the Most Rev David Chillingworth, condemns “the abuse received by St Mary’s Cathedral” then he is as deluded as his subordinate is.

    As a previous comment above so eloquently put it, “what a fuckhead.”

  24. Thomaspj Poovathinkal SSP says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 3:23 am

    IF you believe that Jesus is GOD and Savior, tell people everywhere what he has done for you as your God and Savior, instead of arguing, fighting and blaming or else go to THE DIVINE OR THE SEHION Retreat Centres in Kerala, INDIA and WITNESS what Jesus is DOING to thousands of people, belonging to different Religions, who are coming in these Retreat Centres.

  25. Dr. Joseph Seferta says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 4:43 am

    I’ve been expecting an apology from both Episcopal Provost and Bishop to all Christians for the offence caused by reading Koranic verses that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ in the midst of a Eucharistic service at Epiphany. Lack of apology indicates how naive both are. Their so-called “hospitality” and “dialogue” only go one way. By all means invite Muslims to church, but don’t practice political correctness or appeasement towards Muslims, especially not during a service or mass. For your information, the Koran is basically a merciless critique of the basic Christian beliefs, i.e., the Incarnation, Christ’s divinity, the Trinity, the crucifixion, the resurrection. and the doctrine of redemption. There are over 100 verses that urge Muslims to hunt down and kill non-believers. So it’s really a hostile religion, based on power, subjugation of people and acquisition of land, not, as in Christianity, on love and forgiveness. Muhamad’s example and Islamic history confirm that. What happened on January 6th made Muslims feel that their religion is superior to others. What the Provost should have done instead is a bit of missionary zeal by explaining Christ’s divinity to them instead. Learning about Islam could be done in separate courses.

    • gravenimage says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 9:20 pm

      +1

    • dumbledoresarmy says

      Jan 17, 2017 at 3:48 am

      *Especially* at Epiphany.

      Because Epiphany is the feast on which Christians of certain traditions choose to spend some time reflecting on key passages in scripture that describe those moments when the divine Sonship of Jesus of Nazareth are revealed most clearly and specifically.

      For example, the moment when, as he is baptised in the Jordan by John the Baptist, the Holy Spirit descends, the heavens open, and the voice of God the Father declares, “This is my Beloved Son, in Him I am well pleased”.

      Muslims, of course, *deny* that the divine can have a ‘son’.

  26. FYI says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 6:41 am

    O Jesus,save us from the judas priests
    the whited sepulchres of those churches that pretend to serve you.

    Save us O Lord from the false prophet in Rome
    and deliver us from the evils of Islamism and treacherous Xtian Clergy.

    Amen

  27. duh swami says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 6:46 am

    The priest must think Allah is God…A major case of mistaken identity…

    • gravenimage says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 9:30 pm

      Good one, Swami.

  28. ECAW says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 7:30 am

    Rev Holdsworth – as innocent as a serpent, as wise as a dove.

    • gravenimage says

      Jan 18, 2017 at 2:19 am

      Good one, ECAW.

  29. CrankyWW says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 9:05 am

    He’s appeasing Islam. He’s a traitor to his faith.

  30. Louise M. says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 11:18 am

    ”In his sermon on Sunday, he told the congregation there had been a “storm of abuse” from “10,000 Christian voices” over the incident.”

    If he had gone to a mosque and read about Christ Divinity, or anything else contrary to the Qur’an teachings, he wouldn’t have had a chance to hear anything, anymore….

  31. UNCLE VLADDI says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 1:59 pm

    Christianity is wrong:

    Christians have forgotten part of the divine revelations they received: “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.” — Qur’an 5:14

    And those who believe in the divinity of Christ are unbelievers:
    “They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary.” — Qur’an 5:17

    …

    Jesus is not the Son of God:

    “O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.” — Qur’an 4:171

    “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.” — Qur’an 19:35

    …

    Those who believe that Jesus is God’s Son are accursed:

    “The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ” — Qur’an 9:30

    …

    Jesus was not crucified:

    “And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger – they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.” — Qur’an 4:157

    Qur’an 3:85: “And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.”

  32. Louise M. says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 2:37 pm

    Very interesting criticisms of Rev Holdsworth by lucid religious leaders in U.K.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4120510/CofE-clergyman-bombarded-hate-messages-allowing-passage-Koran-denying-Jesus-God-s-son-read-cathedral.html

    His actions, competence and position are questionned. Feel-good reading !

    • ECAW says

      Jan 16, 2017 at 2:56 pm

      Yes, and very succinctly put by Rev Ashenden.

      • dumbledoresarmy says

        Jan 17, 2017 at 4:02 am

        And one may note that Rev Ashenden is *one of the Queen’s Chaplains*.

        Good to know that she has at least one clear-headed clergyman at her side.

  33. Paul Ashley says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 4:05 pm

    ” Nor did he note that no mosque in Scotland or anywhere else is likely to feature a New Testament reading proclaiming the divinity of Christ: the “hospitality” goes only one way.”

    There’s a Methodist in St. Paul, MN, that hosts a booth in its narthex run by a local mosque to “explain” Islam. I am sure there is no equivalent booth in the mosque to explain Christianity. The Bible, like the Constitution, is not a suicide pact, but some Christians seem to think it is.

  34. gravenimage says

    Jan 16, 2017 at 7:35 pm

    Scotland: Provost of cathedral where Qur’an was read denounces “appeasement” of “those who are Islamophobic”
    ………………………….

    Now it is “Islamophobic” to take issue with Muslims castigating Christians for their faith in their own churches?

    So it appears that appeasement of murderous Muslims is fine…

    More:

    The cathedral’s provost, the Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, said the reading was aimed at promoting understanding between the two faiths.
    ………………………….

    Well, yes–unfortunately, that “understanding” is that these dhimmi Christians bow to the denial of their faith by supremacist Muslims.

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