NATO is indeed obsolete: it was designed to defend the West against the Soviet Union. The American Left always downplayed the Soviet threat and mocked those who called attention to it; now, of course, the American Left has become more exercised about the Russians than Joe McCarthy ever was, but that doesn’t make NATO any less obsolete. It ought to be reconfigured as a defensive coalition against the jihad threat. That is unlikely to happen, however, since many, if not most, of the countries currently in it are pursuing policies of denial and appeasement regarding the jihad threat.
As for Merkel, there is absolutely no doubt that she did indeed make a catastrophic mistake. The effects of that mistake will be seen in Germany for decades to come, and indeed, Germany may never recover.
“Trump rattles NATO with ‘obsolete’ blast,” by James Masters and Katie Hunt, CNN, January 16, 2017:
(CNN)Donald Trump’s accusation that NATO is “obsolete” has led to “astonishment and agitation” within the alliance, Germany’s foreign minister has said.
Speaking in Brussels before a meeting of EU foreign ministers, Frank-Walter Steinmeier suggested the alliance was rattled by the remarks by Trump….
Trump used the interview to restate his doubts about NATO. “I said a long time ago that NATO had problems,” he said in the interview.
“Number one it was obsolete, because it was designed many, many years ago.
“Number two the countries weren’t paying what they’re supposed to be paying,” adding that this was unfair to the United States.
Steinmeier said he had spoken with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, “who is concerned that President-elect Trump regards NATO as obsolete.”
He also noted Trump’s position was “in contradiction” to that of James Mattis, Trump’s nominee for defense secretary.
NATO spokesperson Oana Lungescu pushed back against the comments. “A strong NATO is good for the United States, just as it is for Europe.”
But Dmitry Peskov, the press spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin, agreed with Trump’s assessment of NATO, saying on Monday that “the systematic goal of this organization is confrontation.”…
Trump set his sights on German Chancellor Angela Merkel, calling her “by far the most important leader” in Europe while tearing into her immigration policies, labeling them “catastrophic.”
“I have great respect for her, I felt she was a great leader, I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all these illegals and taking all these people where ever they come from and nobody really knows where they come from.”…
An enthusiastic Trump praised Britain’s impending exit from the European Union as being “so smart.”
“I think Brexit is going to end up being a great thing,” Trump said to his interviewer from the Times, Michael Gove, one of the former leaders of the Brexit campaign, and a sitting member of the UK Parliament.
Asked why he thought the UK’s Brexit campaign was successful, Trump blamed loose borders and concerns about the effects of immigration. He also tied it to US security concerns.
“Countries want their own identity. The UK wanted its own identity. I do believe this, if they hadn’t been forced to take in all of the refugees so many, with all the problems that entails, you wouldn’t have a Brexit… it probably could’ve worked out.”…
Trump said he will immediately take action to tighten US immigration restrictions once he’s sworn in.
“This country we’re going to go very strong borders. From the day I get in. One of the first orders I’m going to sign. Day one.”Trump reiterated plans to implement what he calls “extreme vetting” of people from the Muslim world, according to a Bild transcript translated into English by CNN.
“There will be extreme security vetting, it won’t be like it is now. We don’t have any proper security controls for people entering our country, they don’t really exist at the moment, like it has been the case in your country at least in the past.”
When asked if he would impose similar restrictions on Europe, the President-elect was noncommittal, according to Bild.
“That could happen. But we will see,” he said….
Trump also touched on the Iran nuclear agreement but declined to say whether he would demand changes to it.
“Well I don’t want to say what I’m gonna do with the Iran deal. I just don’t want to play the cards. I mean, look, I’m not a politician, I don’t go out and say, “I’m gonna do this” — I’m gonna do, I gotta do what I gotta do . . . But I’m not happy with the Iran deal, I think it’s one of the worst deals ever made,” he said, according to the Times….

Champ says
Merkel made “catastrophic mistake” in admitting Muslim migrants
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bravo, Trump! …one of the key reasons I voted for him!
TruthWFree says
Yes. He has no problem saying what most of us are thinking and saying but in our much smaller circles.
Peggy says
That’s because they are unlikely to prosecute him for hate speech while they have no problem prosecuting an average Joe.
Tom says
Hear, hear! President Trump will lead us to victory over the Islamist social cancer.
France, Germany, the UK and Sweden better get ready for armageddon.
I also believe that the Islamists will do something in Europe for the inauguration here, to show their displeasure with our newly elected leader.
Be prepared……
RationalVoice says
Yes but will a majority of Germans realise this and kick her out this year at the elections.???
If they don’t, I suggest we build a wall around Germany and make the Krauts pay for it !!!!!!
Martin says
I vote for this as I come from the neighbouring country and Germany problems threatens to spill also into our smaller country once the problems cross red line … yet most of our so called “leadrs” are Merkel’s most devote ass lickers! Crap :-[
underbed cat says
I understand that muslim men are allowed to marry up to 3 woman…..and the point is to multiply in numbers…..as they pour in to the U.S. from Syria, Somalia, etc,courtesy of our “sharia leftist compliant leader” full of passion to erase our country, I do hope Trump demands a complete shutdown on migration. The borders, the airports will need guidelines to adapt to the redefinition and awareness, the agenda of conquering for allah does not sleep and the issues will not stop there….then a decision has to be made of the land purchases and a desist to build new mosques.and a plan created to end this problem (mb) hat has jihadi’s on call.
Angemon says
4, actually, as well as keeping how many sex slaves as they can. It’s the kind of policy one would expect to see on an ideology meant to be spread by the sword – men die while waging jihad, but the production of soldiers for the next generation/wave can’t stop, so have a man marry more than one women.
marblenecltr says
I believe that she does not consider the success of the invasion a mistake; rather, her regret is merely the possibility of her party losing political power.
Angemon says
Same here.
Mockingjay says
…and all the European political leaders here are completely SHOCKED! – that another world-leader would say these things.
rod says
SHOCKED! Of course they should recognise that a failed businessman with no experience whatever in public administration or any other useful activity would know much, much more about how to run a European nation than Merkel. She, after all, has only a doctorate in science, 25 years experience in politics, and has headed her county’s government for over a decade.
(It’s likely that they are SHOCKED at Trump’s arrogance, ignorance, and rank stupidity. But keep watching. There’s more to come.)
JawsV says
Are you being sarcastic? Trump’s not a “failed” businessman. He’s very successful. About Merkel, in Islam she gets an F. She’s ruined her country.
Christianblood says
It is always worth remembering these predictions at the Trump’s campaign last year:
Mark Swan says
rod—aren’t you ignoring those precious, professional, politicians‘, arrogance, ignorance, and rank stupidity?
Peggy says
I could only wish that I would “fail” as much as he did.
Champ says
LOL!! 😀 …good one, Peggy!
linnte says
Education and degrees do not give a person COMMON sense, and Merkel is sorely lacking in that virtue. All she has to do is play a hand of rummy to see what happens when someone else has the majority (Islam) of the cards. OOPS! She looses!
b.a. freeman says
actually, trump has money, so the word should be fail-ING, not fail-ED, if that’s even the case. experience in politics means that one knows how to work other people, not that one knows how to get things done. and nobody’s experience in other fields is going to be a good predictor of how one will work out as a leader.
mr. trump seems to have a thin skin and a penchant for striking back at every slight, so he is at least somewhat of a loose cannon. his choices for running things seem to be OK so far, but it remains to be seen how he will work out. ms. merkel, OTOH, apparently has not checked to see what the beliefs of islam are, and does not seem to understand that it is a hate-filled pirate cult. if she does not reverse her stance on muslim immigrants, germany will cease being a free nation.
if it comes to a choice between a boob who selects good subordinates and a very smart, well-spoken scientist who does not understand the evil she faces, i’ll take the boob any day of the week.
Rich Trapp says
Well said!
Francis Merde says
Here’s a secret for you. Getting a doctorate doesn’t make you any smarter than you initially were before you got it. At least not in terms of your basic thought processes. People with PhD’s are just as capable of doofus behavior as anyone else. Merkel did what she did, because it was probably what the special interest groups and the EU bureaucracy at large told her was a good idea.
Nevermind that the migrants from the Middle East that Germnany was importing were hostile to their host nation, or structurally unemployable for all but the most menial jobs. Get enough people hooked on government benefits and your party will never fall out of power due to raw numbers. And if terrorism happens to innocent citizens, just call it the “new normal” because you’ll always have private security. And if your culture is destroyed in two generations from within due to birthrates from migrants massively exceeding those of the native population, well don’t fret because you’ll already be dead by that time and it wasn’t like you needed that culture anyway.
It’s a game of demographic shifting. The vote of an informed electorate doesn’t matter if it gets swamped out by raw numbers from zombies that will always vote for bigger and bigger government. This is the motivation for people like George Soros to do what they do all the time. They want power concentrated in the hands of a few at any cost. A new aristocracy if you will. Just don’t ever call it that or the plebs might catch on.
In short, Merkel’s mistake was no mistake at all.
John Doe says
German politician even said: Germany has no culture and should adopt the culture of the migrants. I hope Trump will make their life so bitter and Brexit is the start of ending the EU.
roger woodhouse says
Merkel did what all PC leaders in the West would have done face with such an onslaught.Doing otherwise would have required some difficult decisions and action.Non of which they would have taken.Like all our useless leaders they much prefer spending taxpayers money to try and alleviate problems.ie build accommodation and coerce the public into accepting these people even though the local are sick and tired of being put on.
Myles says
Very well stated Francis. Or to put it another way, merkel is a sociopath.
Angemon says
Francis Merde posted:
“People with PhD’s are just as capable of doofus behavior as anyone else.”
I’d argue that some are even more. It goes like this: “I believe this course of action to be the best. I’m a smart person – I have such and such PhD’s to prove it. Therefore, what I think must be the best course of action must, in fact, be the best course of action. Because why else would a smart person think so?”
Myles says
I’ll make this as simple as possible rod, you are a moron.
billybob says
You speak of Merkle’s qualifications. Consider Hillary’s qualifications in comparison to Trump. She served the Senate, and as Secretary of State, many years in politics, was married to a former president. On the surface, her experience blows away Trump hands down, but there was a big problem… With all her experience, where would she lead us? Somewhere we don’t want to go. Same with Merkle. We don’t want to go one tiny step further down that road.
Peggy says
I’ll take a patriot over a lying crooked academic any time.
You don’t need a degree to love your country and people and all the degrees in the world aren’t going to make you a patriot if you are evil.
maghan says
If you are being stupidly sarcastic? Merkel has some kind of degree from East Germany. Bug deal. If she were really smart she would have continued in academics. No, she is a silly and naive person almost stupid. Just lacking in common sense, that’s what she is.
Trump has businesses in 25 countries–a far more difficult thing to manage than being POTUS. Look at the outgoing POTUS. Just lazy as sloth and wakes up to play golf when he is bored.
Peggy says
She is from East Germany so dictatorship comes naturally.
Phil Copson says
Rod, an inexperienced politician trying to do the right thing is still better than an experienced politician setting out to do harm.
All of Merkel’s expertise is directed against the interests of the population of Europe
Politically – dismantling democracy by transferring powers to a statist central bureaucracy
Economically – damaging industry by placing control of the economy for political purposes – by means of the Euro, centralisation of regulation, tax structure etc – ahead of individual countries economic interests. European economies are declining compared to non-EU countries, and several are in real trouble – Greece, Spain, Italy, France, others to follow.
Culturally – the most important of the lot. Countries can recover from political and economic hardship, but not from mass migration from entirely different and opposed cultures with a vastly higher birth-rate.
This will end European civilisation unless there are mass deportations, since there won’t be any significant voluntary migration out of Europe (except for the Jews followed by the non-jewish indigenous white population.)
If Robert Spencer or any group member can tell where I am wrong, I’d love to know……
JIMJFOX says
Yeah, Frau Merkel HAS ‘run her country’- right into the ground! Highly educated people are often utterly stupid in practical matters- example, my sister’s husband PhD and university professor is thick as two planks. “Sirius is the brightest object in the night sky”. NOPE! The Moon & Venus are both far brighter, that’s how dim he is. Nor does he know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is…
gravenimage says
So, rod–you are fine with Merkel having invited in hordes of violent Muslims into Germany, and believe this is evidence of her superior experience?
cecilia says
you are socialist democrat progressist liberal / leftists psychopaths
cecilia says
you are socialist comunist progressist liberal/ lefitist psychopaths
Guest says
Yes, so odd, since anyone who had listened to him over the last year would not be in the least surprised by these statements. How come I, a nobody living on the other side of the world, know more about Trump’s plans than high-level European politicians.
Proof again that they just live in their fantasy bubble…
gretel says
Trump may not make the most political (akak devious) comments but he is speaking truthfully. We know that because it’s what we can see ourselves. Of course powerful agencies will say he makes reckless statements. They want to keep things as they are, with immigrants invading us. We need not have this situation where moslems, Pakistani and African have us by the balls. We surely are smarter than that? You csn attribute all innovation and invention to westerners, yet we just let much more primitive cultures walk all over us????
cs says
I don’t think he should be putting NATO down like that, it is an important asset, it should be discussed with more calm, it is a very important issue.
vlparker says
The clowns leading Europe don’t even know who the enemy is. They have invited the enemy into their own countries and then denied that they are the enemy and that their goal is to destroy Western civilization. Islam is a much greater threat to Europe than Russia and these fools are too stupid to see it.
Peggy says
Exactly.
John Doe says
Agree to 100%. Russia is not the enemy. Putin might not be the guy you invite over for tea on a sunny Sunday afternoon… but a border is clear a clear definition. But the making daily excuses for muslims misbehavior over decades hoping one day all will be good – NO!!
Why does no politician ever have a degree in history?!? It all happened before. Multiculture has failed and will keep failing.
Ric says
“Why does no politician ever have a degree in history?!? It all happened before. Multiculture has failed and will keep failing.”
I have asked the same question, John Doe. Frankly, I don’t believe it would make them any more erudite to appraise and resolve a crisis. It seems that politicians decades ago, also, twiddled their thumbs while struggling with an upcoming catastrophe or stuck their heads a favorite orifice. Choosing more often than not to appease the enemy than to carry a big stick. Denial, seemingly, outweighs one being a leader with resolve than one who prefers dwelling in a state of denial. Merkel and her comrades in the EU are much of this ‘surrender mode’ ilk.
Multiculturism is a bust but to those beguiled by political correctness. This will, in the end, be the death-knell for Western Democracy. Thanks to Merkel, the EU, and numerous other flaccid leaders.
Anne Smith says
How true – one despairs seeing them howling about Putin and failing to see the elephant (perhaps that should be camel) in their own front room.
Westman says
My interpretation of Trump’s statement that NATO is obsolete, is perhaps like my old windows cell phone. It doesn’t mean a NATO function, or cell phones, should be eliminated – it may simply mean NATO should be updated and reorganized. The administration of the EU has previously called for the EU to raise its own military, so this sudden surprise reaction about a possible withdrawl of US troops is phony.
Certainly Europe should be paying its own way and requiring more military service from its youth. Much of the 70 years of safety, that has led to men so lacking in masculinity they won’t protect women, was provided at US expense. Merkel certainly factored it in while deciding if Germany could afford the “refugees” and likely, so has the leadership of the EU. It’s no surprise that they are shocked by Trump’s statement, not because of NATO changes, rather, the loss of Euros from their plans.
ECAW says
Well, he certainly needs to sort out a party line with his Secretary of Defense who said that if NATO didn’t exist it would be necessary to invent it.
Is this how it’s going to be, four years of Trump saying whatever comes into his head without checking? It will be entertaining at least!
John Doe says
Merkel in one way ended the EU. She called for open borders and then afterwards demanded that every European country needs to take in refugee. never minding how much trouble these countries already have with migrants. Ever been to Paris? Ever been to the suburbs of Paris?
But she follows a communist logic, in the way she was raised and always did work – culture is not important. I hope and pray that in one or the other way she will pay the price.
linnte says
Organisation of Islamic Cooporation is 56 Nations in the UN and NATO. NATO is now all about OIL. Naw, it has its fingers in every Nations pie. Time to get rid of it.
Lesley says
Rapidly reislamizing Turkey is no friend of the West… NATO is a sham.
gravenimage says
Certainly, Turkey being part of it is.
davej says
Kerry thinks Trump should not be able to say that about Merkel. Note finger salute.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kerry-trump-merkel_us_587d0dcfe4b0b3c7a7b25535?cn66ka2ds7e486w29
gravenimage says
Kerry is an idiot. Thanks for posting that link, dave.
abad says
It sure is nice to have a president who tells it like it is, calls a spade a spade – and oh yes the liberal media cannot handle the truth.
What else is new.
At least Trump will NOT be falling for the “Muslim Syrian Refugees” lie the way Merkel did.
damian says
You right, so happy trump is in, that’s God anointed of our time, says it the way it is just like John the baptist,lets all pray for him to succeed
reyol says
NATO’s current mission is to employ maximum number of bureaucrats in centralized headquarters. This gives ambitious officers from the military establishments of the constituent European states opportunities to move up beyond the limitations of their own countries – much like the EU does for the political civilian side of the house. It’s also a way for European countries to pull in American muscle so that they don’t have to make social cuts to bring their own military up to it’s proper size. So, just because the Warsaw Pact is defunct doesn’t mean that NATO has to be dissolved. There’s a lot of people with vested interests in NATO, not only staying just the way it is, but in expanding.
Angemon says
reyol posted:
“NATO’s current mission is to employ maximum number of bureaucrats in centralized headquarters.”
As any big governmental organization tends to be, starting with the government of any given country. The clean-up should start there. If a large number of nations got a “new management” that cleaned up the clutter, I’m certain organizations like NATO, the UN or the EU would follow.
ibrahim itace muhammed says
can mad devil trump provide subtitute for nato being a clueless?i doubt much.he may said he wants form a coalation against political islam to abolish islam.that will bring him down by sharia defenders.
Marlies says
You call Trump a mad devil. I think you are getting him mixed up with the Anti American Muslim Obama who never should have been President because he’s a fake. Not an American, has a dead person’s SS#, has all his records sealed. Glad to see the back of him. Islam is a Satanic Cult=they worship BAAL the moon God–AKA Satin. they used to and still do screw animals. That was part of the cult of BAAL AKA Islam. Stick that feather in your liberal cap.
Berengaria says
Thanks Ibrahim, I love that “Mad Devil Trump”, it’s similar to Patton’s “Magnificent Bastard”. Our “Mad Devil Trump”is going up against some of the most vile Characters in the US GOV & it’s a joy to watch Trump manuever thru this Mine Field. Thanks Again!
gravenimage says
More from ibrahim itace muhammed:
can (sic) mad devil trump (sic) provide subtitute (sic) for nato (sic) being a clueless?i (sic) doubt much.he (sic) may said he wants form a coalation (sic) against political islam (sic) to abolish islam.that (sic) will bring him down by sharia defenders.
……………………….
Of course, Donald Trump has never once said he is going to “abolish Islam”–just that he is going to try to keep Jihadists out of the US. I suppose for muhammed these are the same thing…
muhammed has already claimed that “Sharia defenders” are going to oust and assassinate Donald Trump.
An ugly glimpse into the Muslim mindset.
Guest says
Ibby, you can’t write. Give up.
maghan says
That just proves how stupid he is. And the fool doesn’t seem to know that. Just comic relief to read his cretinous babblings.
JawsV says
The “mad devil” is your fake prophet, Muhammed.
don vito says
itace, been feasting and kufr dead meat again? Mad Devil Trump, I like the ring of that you Trumpophobe. itace, how does a kufr protect blood and property from the grasping reaching bloody hands of your lying, thieving pervert prophet?
Bezelel says
Turkey is a NATO member? That bad enough.They’ve been buying oil from ISIS
Peggy says
That is the reason they should dismember NATO and make another alliance which doesn’t include Turkey but invites Russia in.
USSR threat is not there but Muslim threat is.
Everything has to update including an alliance.
Wellington says
The least that can be said is that the greatest military alliance in history for the protection and promotion of freedom (which, I might add, is why Russia to this day despises NATO since Russia knows nothing about freedom, whether under Czars, First Secretaries or now Putin) has badly fallen down due to fools aplenty in the West, examples being Obama, May, Merkel and Trudeau, who are mere shadows of the people who formed NATO in the first place, examples being Truman, Attlee and Adenauer (though, to be completely thorough here, West Germany did not officially join NATO until six years after it was formed but Adenauer’s spirit was in NATO from its inception in 1949).
I won’t quibble about Trump’s use of the word “obsolete.” Perhaps a better word could have been found, but irrespective of the optimum word here, what Trump has said rings true, made all the more valid by an entirely different Turkey from the one which originally joined NATO in 1952. Turkey in NATO nowadays is indeed the enemy within.
You know, I kinda’ miss the Cold War. One was then able to name the opposition which is no longer the case and, besides, at least the enemy back then, while a bastard, wasn’t a crazy bastard. Oh yeah, times have changed and Trump is correct to call into question the importance, viability and mission of NATO. Either NATO adapts to the new realities or it deserves to become a relic of the past. Not much time left for this matter to be determined.
Peggy says
Nothing stays the same forever and everything must change and adapt.
The threat from USSR no longer exists but a threat from Turkey does so NATO has to either adapt to this new reality and change or be dismantled.
No use going after an enemy which no longer exists like ordering troops to the Russian border which doesn’t pose a threat but letting an enemy like Turkey sit in on all the privileged information.
Russia has never gone to war against the US and has actually been an ally so why all the fear?
Who is at whose border armed to their teeth?
I believe it’s time to dismantle NATO and come up with another alliance going after the real threat and invite Russia to be a part of it.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“The threat from USSR no longer exists ”
Yes, I’m sure the Ukrainians agree that all is well on the South-eastern Front… /sarc. off
Wellington says
Seconded, Angemon.
Angemon says
+1
gravenimage says
Good post, Wellington.
Daniel Triplett says
Excellent Robert. You nailed it, as usual.
NATO was a seriously important post-WWII Cold War Alliance. But that changed in 1991, thanks to two of the World’s greatest leaders; Reagan and Gorbachev. The two perfect men at the perfect time in World history. Wouldn’t have happened had both not been in power.
But you’re right Robert. Russia is reaching out to us. Putin wants Trump to be POTUS, not because he believes he can push him around, but because he believes he can partner with Trump to defeat Islam.
To those who keep wanting to bash Putin and disavow the obvious, just STFU. We’re trying to win the biggest war the World has ever faced.
Putin is not the perfect man, I’ll admit. But he’s going to be in power for the next 15 -20 years. So, we have two choices:
1. Continue the hostile adversarial attitude about Russia, during which time both Iran will have a formidable arsenal of nuke ICBMs, as well as N Korea, both of whom are crazy enough to use them.
OR
2. Turn the page on history, and now would be a great time to do it. I take Putin at his word. Yes, I trust the man when he says the World would be much better if the US and Russia are friends. What kind of a dumbshit would think otherwise? Sure, we have differences. We have differences with our best friends in the World too, the UK. Does that make us adversaries? Of course not. Point being, we need Russia to destroy Islam. Not going to happen without an alliance, which also includes Israel, UK, France, India, China, AND Russia. All the Kaffir nuke states.
China and Russia don’t like the Muslims anymore than we do.
But what about the Russo/Iranian relationship, you ask? Well what about the US, Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, and Oman alliances, just for starters. Do you think that Putin may have some legitimate suspicion about all that? I’d say so. We’re selling all kinds of advanced weaponry to those people.
So before we hypocritically condemn Russia for selling Iran some weapons, and making war plans with them, remember that we’re doing THE SAME THING with 5 times as many OIC nations.
So let’s allow Presidents Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu to have an alliance meeting of the minds, and decide that it’s time for us all to show good faith and divorce ourselves from the Ummah and Dar al-Islam altogether.
A massive realignment of Allies is in order. An adversarial NATO type of posture toward Russia is injurious to the future of the Free World, and has long outlived its purpose. ISLAM is the World threat.
Face it. We can’t defeat Islam without Russia. Who’s side do we want Putin to take in WWIII? Do we want to have a fight to the death with 1.6 Billion Muslims AND Russia? Let’s use our heads and think this one through.
And for those who want to point out all of Putin’s faults, shall I remind you of Joseph Stalin? Remember? The Russian autocrat who murdered 20,000,000 of his OWN people alone? The man with whom we also had to ALLY to destroy Nazism? Putin is no Stalin, by a long shot. And the bottom line is…we don’t have a choice. We either ally with Russia, or we lose the Islamic War.
https://medium.com/@dantriplett/islamic-jihad-is-total-war-for-all-marbles-6c858098b76e#.jdo2pgmyz
Peggy says
Bravo, you said it perfectly.
I’ve been trying to drum this into people’s heads for a long time but it’s not reaching too many.
All we ever hear is Putin has taken part of Ukraine. Who destabilized that country in the first place by overthrowing a democratically elected president? That’s taking over an entire country by proxy.
At the same time Putin has only claimed what was Russia’s in the first place.
You’re right people tend to see only the negative because the press has been so hostile towards Russia for too long but they don’t see the danger in their own back yard because of who their own leaders have been in bed with.
Daniel Triplett says
Thanks Peggy. I appreciate the comments. I can always count on you for smart replies to my posts. You’re a thinker, and we agree on most everything (Can’t think of anywhere we don’t off the top of my head).
We have a lot of work to do, and a “yuge” war ahead of us.
Stay strong Sister Soldier.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“I’ve been trying to drum this into people’s heads for a long time but it’s not reaching too many.
All we ever hear is Putin has taken part of Ukraine.”
Really? You must be suffering from one-person-collective selective hearing, because I’ve read – and said – on several occasions that, for example, Putin stated that Russia was the protector of the islamic world, Putin’s government ensured a jihadi leader went down in history as an “hero of the Russian federation”, and not that long ago Putin also stated he would prefer not to link Islam with terrorism.
gravenimage says
Does that mean that you don’t believe Westerners should have been allowed to learn that Russia had taken part of Ukraine? I’m sure it would have made Putin happier…
Peggy says
No that’s not it but the westerners should have been allowed to learn the whole truth. That part of Ukraine has always been Russian and it was handed over only recently.
How many westerners know that or do you agree that they should not know it.
Graven, as we already know very well that MSM is going to steer us in the wrong direction so by omitting important facts like that is lying to us.
Also, when did the US and Russia have a war? If anything, Russians were allies and fought against the common enemy.
There is a lot wrong in Russia but there is a lot wrong in the west too and there is even more wrong with western allies like Daniel said.
We keep Turkey in NATO who wants death to us all but we won’t trust Russia to have an alliance with us who has not fought against us.
Turkey is an enemy and always will be. We should not forget Gallipoli.
These are some of my reasons for wanting better relations with Russia. If we want to keep Russia as an enemy then people of the US should not have voted for Trump. Hillary was more than happy to keep Russia as an enemy and preparing for war.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“That part of Ukraine has always been Russian and it was handed over only recently.”
Thus making it Ukrainian territory. Unless the Ukrainian government willingly returned it, you are trying to defend the indefensible.
“Also, when did the US and Russia have a war? If anything, Russians were allies and fought against the common enemy.”
Well, for those people living under a rock for the last 70 or so years (thus excluding water-murking shills), there was this thing called “The Cold War”, which was fought on many fronts, including proxy wars and the cultural landscape. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe facts matter.
“There is a lot wrong in Russia but there is a lot wrong in the west too and there is even more wrong with western allies like Daniel said.”
Yes, the ever-so-popular-two-in-one-combo of tu-quoquery and false moral equivalence – this is exactly the same argument brought forth by leftards defending, for example, islam, cristalized in Barack Obama’s infamous “Lest we get on our high horse” speech.
“If we want to keep Russia as an enemy”
What if Russia wants to keep this “we” you speak of as an enemy? How should “we” react to that? By laying on our backs and exposing our bellies?
Angemon says
Daniel Triplett posted:
“Putin wants Trump to be POTUS, not because he believes he can push him around, but because he believes he can partner with Trump to defeat Islam. ”
If that’s indeed the case, Putin should immediately stop the anti-Trump propaganda pouring out of Russia’s propaganda outlets.
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
I don’t speak Russian, so therefore pay zero attention to any Russian news, propaganda or otherwise.
All I care about is what comes directly from Putin’s mouth when he’s interviewed on TV, assuming the translators are truthful.
And I’ve heard him say nothing anti-Trump whatsoever.
I have heard him say:
“Bright and talented Trump is absolute leader of US Presidential Race.” (straight from his mouth)
and
“Donald Trump is a really brilliant and talented person, without any doubt. It’s not our job to judge his qualities, that’s a job for American voters, but he’s the absolute leader in the Presidential race.” (again, straight from his mouth on a different TV interview)
What have you heard Putin say in first person that’s anti-trump?
Angemon says
Daniel Triplett posted:
“I don’t speak Russian, so therefore pay zero attention to any Russian news, propaganda or otherwise.”
Media outlets like RT or Sputnik news are available in English, otherwise they wouldn’t be any good as propaganda, would they? Your ignorance of the subject is inexcusable, especially from someone claiming to have a military background – I thought that the military looked at ALL available info and not just the pieces they like. Am I to trust the Iranians when their envoys smile and say they want peace and disregard the shouts of “Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to the West!”, as the NYT does? Of course not. Anyway, here’s a nice anti-Trump propaganda piece from RT, right after Trump’s election, in case you’re interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3liu_Cx7Rd0
And the title of this one tells it all: “Trump Is The Final Step In The Decades-Long Corporate Criminal Takeover”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4rZBwCGpvg
That’s how Russian-state media has been describing Trump, in the English language, to an English-speaking public: as nothing but a corrupt criminal who will usher the end of civil rights in America for women and minorities. I have a problem with that, and I’m not even American or have a special fondness for Trump.
“All I care about is what comes directly from Putin’s mouth when he’s interviewed on TV, assuming the translators are truthful.”
Ah, so you’re easy to fool – “listen only to what I say and don’t mind what I do”.
Just so we’re clear: as long as Putin is on the news saying nice things about Trump you’ll disregard the derision and undermining of Trump – and the US in general – emanating from Russian propaganda outlets? No matter how much the state-owned Russian media attacks, smears, derides and undermines Trump, as long as it isn’t Putin saying it you’ll have no objections?
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
I wrote out a very long reply to your disrespectful 4:12 post, but the moderator deleted it (first time ever for me).
You wouldn’t have liked what I had to say about you.
Angemon says
Daniel Triplett posted:
“@Angemon
I wrote out a very long reply to your disrespectful 4:12 post”
“Disrespectful”? You mean, the post that boils down to “No Russian anti-Trump propaganda? Well, here it is, and it’s not in Russian. I have no idea how you could have missed it, seeing how long it’s been going on, and considering that you often bring up a military background”.
“but the moderator deleted it (first time ever for me).
You wouldn’t have liked what I had to say about you.”
“About me”? Not about the arguments I made but “about me”? As in, you wrote a series of personal insults instead of addressing the arguments I made and backed up? Maybe having your post deleted, as you claim, was better for you, lest someone else started thinking less of you after reading it…
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
Look, I don’t dislike you, and read most of your posts, because they’re articulate, well thought out, informative, and insightful.
When you said, “Your ignorance of the subject is inexcusable, especially from someone claiming to have a military background – I thought that the military looked at ALL available info and not just the pieces they like,” I took that to be a disrespectful and hostile remark. Who wouldn’t?
“Your ignorance is inexcusable…”
Ignorance of what? That is a seriously classless remark, especially coming from someone who’s never worn his country’s uniform himself, and has no experience working with Intel agencies daily. When we don’t have Muslim douchebags like Obama and Brenner running the show, US Intel is second to none. They don’t look at info they “like.” They look at info that’s “valid.”
“…especially from someone CLAIMING to have a military background.”
CLAIMING? Now you’re questioning my credibility and veracity, calling into question my service and sacrifice to my country. Of course that’s going to piss me off.
“About me”? Not about the arguments I made but “about me”?
In my deleted post, I made remarks about your hostile penchant to relentlessly attack specific other posters; especially the women. Gentlemen don’t do that, and I know you have the intellect to understand what I mean.
I won’t rewrite the whole post, but the main theme of it is that just 15% of Americans trust American media (even many at FoxNews). I don’t trust American media, so of course I’ll place little to no premium on anything a Russian media organization has to say about anything, having no trust for them either.
You, however, were insulting me because I didn’t give the credit to Russian media outlets you believe they deserve.
You and I just have different opinions on the subject. That’s all.
Therefore, I have so much respect when Heads of State, like Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu, speak directly to the people, bypassing the biased media, leaving no doubt whatsoever about what they really think.
I like President Trump’s Twittering.
I don’t give a damn what Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Matt Lauer, or any of those other so called newsmen (even many on Fox) think about ANYTHING. And if you’re American, you ought to know that already. If you’re not American, then please know that about us.
This is largely why we elected President Trump. He’s a bazillionaire, but he thinks and speaks like the rest of us do. Whether on or off camera, he’s the same guy, which has never happened with another president. I trust him, as do 60 Million+ other Americans.
Putin has already extended his hand to my new President. My President likes and trusts him. I also make the choice to do the same. What other choice do we have? Would you like to go to war with 1.6 Billion Ummah AND Russia?
I still think you were being disrespectful toward me, unnecessarily and unprovoked, however, I regret the rancor and tone of my deleted response to you, and am glad the moderator deleted it.
The bottom line Angemon is we’re on the same side. As I’ve said, I hold no ill will toward you, and would like to continue exchanging ideas as gentlemen, trying to work together to win the Islamic War.
Take care, and stay strong. We have a big war ahead of us, and smart minds and strategies will be required for victory.
Angemon says
Daniel Triplett posted:
“Look, I don’t dislike you, and read most of your posts, because they’re articulate, well thought out, informative, and insightful.”
Or so you say – but I bet all that goes out the window from this point on…
“Ignorance of what?”
Ignorance of what I provided evidence for: anti-Trump Russian state propaganda.
“That is a seriously classless remark”
Far from it. A classless remark was your “I don’t speak Russian therefore I don’t care about Russian propaganda”, especially considering that Russia is broadcasting its propaganda in plain, mainstream English. Would you react the same way if, in the videos I linked to, the symbol on the lower left corner screen read “CNN” instead of “RT”? I suspect not. I suspect if that exact same content came from CNN, ABC or NBC you’d be outraged. But since it’s coming from a Russian state media, you’re trying to downplay it, for no apparent good reason. As I said, ending said anti-Trump propaganda would be a show of good faith. Do you disagree with that assertion?
And seeing how you’re trying to derail into ad-hominems instead of addressing the issue I raised, I believe my point is made and proven.
“especially coming from someone who’s never worn his country’s uniform himself, and has no experience working with Intel agencies daily.”
Huh, so what? How does that relate to the anti-Trump propaganda emanating from Russia and your inability to even acknowledge it exists? It doesn’t, of course – it’s just you trying to make it personal instead of addressing what I pointed out.
“When we don’t have Muslim douchebags like Obama and Brenner running the show, US Intel is second to none. They don’t look at info they “like.” They look at info that’s “valid.””
Much like you did when you claimed to pay zero attention to Russian propaganda meant to deride and de-legitimize Donald Trump?
“CLAIMING? Now you’re questioning my credibility and veracity, calling into question my service and sacrifice to my country. Of course that’s going to piss me off.”
Yes, claiming. I originally took you at face value – I even defended you when someone here attacked you on the grounds that you were a member of the US military – but your behaviour has made me question your trustworthiness. Would a military officer act as you did, disregarding info that goes against the narrative he’s trying to preach? No, never – at least not a competent one.
Or am I not allowed to be sceptic of what you say?
“In my deleted post, I made remarks about your hostile penchant to relentlessly attack specific other posters; especially the women. ”
Baseless remarks, as it can be attested to by female posters here, such as gravenimage, Champ or quotha raven. This is nothing but baseless slander that does not address the issue I raised – it’s simply you trying to drag away from it and into a mud flinging contest. You are no different, in nature, than the leftists or RT propagandists who call Trump “misogynist” because he called a couple of nasty names to Rosie O’Donnell after she said some disparaging things about him. “Attack”? I start by addressing their posts and the ideas/assertions in them. I’d hardly call that an “attack”. “Relentlessly”? Not sure what you mean by this. “Especially the women”? I’d bet the number of individual posters I butted heads with is mostly male. But go on – please provide an example of these “relentless attacks on women” you’re accusing me of. Did I ever said to a poster “you’re a women so STFU”? No. Did I ever say “I’m going after you because you’re a woman”? Nope. Never said or did that, no matter how much you claim to the contrary.
Oh, and if you actually got a post deleted, it’s not a good idea to actually repost what you wrote, don’t you think?
“ Gentlemen don’t do that, and I know you have the intellect to understand what I mean.”
Gentlemen wouldn’t lie about other posters nor would they ignore perfectly valid points.
“I won’t rewrite the whole post, but the main theme of it is that just 15% of Americans trust American media (even many at FoxNews).”
That’s disingenuous. First of all, we’re not talking about American media – RT may broadcast in English but it’s a Russian media. Second, polls don’t say that. Polls say that Americans don’t trust mainstream media (and I believe the percentage of those who do is not 15% but 5-6%). They also say that alternative media is on the rise, and RT, as well as all the other Russian propaganda channels, present themselves as alternative media.
“I don’t trust American media,”
But we’re not talking about you or the American media, are we?
“so of course I’ll place little to no premium on anything a Russian media organization has to say about anything, having no trust for them either.”
You truly have no problem with Russian-state media slandering the President of the United States while at the same time the ultimate responsible for said media smiles in his face?
“You, however, were insulting me”
I did no such thing. You, on the other hand, have shown to be willing to delve into petty lies and insults.
“because I didn’t give the credit to Russian media outlets you believe they deserve.”
Nice mischaracterization. The anti-Trump propaganda from Russian media exists, as I proved, and, as I stated many times before, if Putin was actually willing to trust Trump, or genuinely open to cooperate with him, ending it would be a proof of good faith. How can Trump trust someone who smiles and says nice things about him to his face while at the same time paying for the spread of slanderous anti-Trump propaganda?
“You and I just have different opinions on the subject. That’s all.”
Nope. Facts are what they are – the Russian government is paying for anti-Trump propaganda in Europe and America. That you choose to disregard it – and I have yet to see a word from you condemning it – doesn’t change the fact that the propaganda exists and feeds people like the protesters during the inauguration.
“Therefore, I have so much respect when Heads of State, like Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu, speak directly to the people, bypassing the biased media, leaving no doubt whatsoever about what they really think.”
Witless comparison. Netanyahu and the Israeli state are not paying for anti-Trump, anti-American propaganda in America and Europe. Trump and the American state are not paying for anti-Putin, anti-Russian propaganda in America and Europe. Putin and the Russian state are paying for anti-Trump, anti-American propaganda in America and Europe. And you, someone who supposedly is an avid Trump supporter, don’t have a problem with it? Why?
“I don’t give a damn what Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Matt Lauer, or any of those other so called newsmen (even many on Fox) think about ANYTHING. And if you’re American, you ought to know that already. If you’re not American, then please know that about us.”
Who’s talking about them? I specifically addressed the issue of Russian anti-Trump propaganda being broadcast into America. That’s not Rachel Maddow’s, Chris Matthews’s, Matt Lauer’s or Anderson Cooper’s fault.
“Putin has already extended his hand to my new President.”
While speaking ill of him in the back – something that you’re apparently OK with.
“What other choice do we have? Would you like to go to war with 1.6 Billion Ummah AND Russia?”
Ah, so opposing Russian anti-Trump propaganda = going to war with Russia? Is that it? Are those really the two available options available to Trump? Pretend Putin isn’t screwing him over or going to war with him? I think you give Trump, an accomplished businessman, far less credit that he deserves… Of course war with Russia is not the only alternative to having to bear Russian anti-Trump propaganda and grin.
“I still think you were being disrespectful toward me, unnecessarily and unprovoked”
You’re free to think whatever you want, and so am I – for example, I think you feigned outrage and threw libel my way as a means to avoid addressing the point I raised: that if, like you contend, “Putin wants Trump to be POTUS because he believes he can partner with Trump to defeat Islam”, Putin should immediately stop the anti-Trump propaganda pouring out of Russia’s propaganda outlets. Don’t you think that’s a good thing? Or are you OK with anti-Trump propaganda as long as isn’t coming from American MSM?
“The bottom line Angemon is we’re on the same side. As I’ve said, I hold no ill will toward you”
I find this hard to believe, considering what you’ve been saying about me – are you going to retract and apologize for your libellous remarks?
“and would like to continue exchanging ideas as gentlemen”
Then don’t act like a gutter thug – stop the petty, baseless personal attacks. Start by addressing the points I raised and backed – the existence of anti-Trump propaganda from Russian state-owned outlets, and how the shutting down of said propaganda would be a good thing, a sign of good faith and genuine willingness to treat Trump as an equal partner.
Daniel Triplett says
@Angemon
BTW, your skills with posting your thoughts are superior to mine. If you could teach me sometime how to italicize something or put it in bold, I’d appreciate your help. You make your posts much more presentable and easier to follow than I know how to do.
Sincerely
Dan
Angemon says
Daniel riplett posted:
“If you could teach me sometime how to italicize something or put it in bold, I’d appreciate your help. ”
You can use HTML tags directly in the textbox. Or use a text editor, whether local or online, that lets you put italics or bold and see the text as HTML code, edit your posts there and copy the HTML view to JW.
W3Schools has a nice page about HTML formatting and HTML tags:
http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_formatting.asp
mortimer says
I believe most generals in NATO are far ahead of the politicians in their understandings of the JIHAD THREAT. Military officers need to GET INTO THE MIND OF THE ENEMY to understand WHAT HIS NEXT MOVE WILL BE.
Because of the need to understand the jihadist, most Western generals are SELF-TAUGHT about jihad, because they cannot afford NOT TO BE INFORMED about JIHAD.
Western generals should be considered EXCELLENT political choices for voters by the counterjihad.
gravenimage says
Mortimer, there are exceptions, but all too many generals have proven to be sadly clueless about Jihad.
Daniel Triplett says
Keep in mind though, ALL 3 and 4-Stars are hand selected, requiring his express authorization to get those stars.
Translation: He will surround himself with sycophant Yes Men. So yes, they’re either stupid about jihad, or they have their noses jammed way up Obama’s ass, putting their careers before their country, or both.
If you want to know how our military truly feels about our President and his foreign policy, ask the Field Grade Corps (Major, Lieutenant Colonel, and Colonel).
Daniel Triplett says
General James “Mad dog” Mattis got his 4th Star under Bush 43.
davej says
The Ukraine is very small potatoes compared to Islam and the Middle East. I hope Trump and Putin see eye to eye on this.
BTW, fun fact: 63% of Russian territory is built on permafrost, 75% of which is now melting due to climate change. So they have other problems to consider.
Stipe says
Germany as has the rest of the Western world, has embraced a culture of self satisfaction at expense of having children. This has lead to declining populations with an inbalance between the young and old. This culture has progressed to a point where a significant percentage of young people have no desire to have a family. I strongly believe that this has motivated and motivates the politicians.
I have come to the conclusion that it may even be at the subconscience level. Say a natural level that a void created in one place is being filled by those that are missing in that void.
andra says
I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all these illegals and taking all these people where ever they come from…
————————–
In German MSM Trump gets critizised harshly for critizising Merkel. Steinmeier, the German president to be, has lost his manners and is insulting Trump all the ime so that you can start feeling ashamed for him.
But if you read the posts to the MSM-articles or Steinmeier´s statements most of the writers agree with Trump and critizise Steinmeier.
Kay says
Interesting.
Richard Paulsen says
I am afraid that she will win the election for Bundeskanzler/in in Germany once again, What will then guarantee piece in Europe? Neither she not muslims will.
Regarding how she is dividing Europe and europeans and muslims fighting others and each other. Europe is in dangerous hands.
Richard Paulsen says
Corr. ” What will then guarantee peace in Europe? “
Cayman says
There will be no peace until 1) all non-muslims are dead, paying the tax, or converted; or, 2) all muslims are sent home or to their heaven. Is there a 3rd choice?
Richard Paulsen says
No, not that I know of.
gravenimage says
Deportation?
DP111 says
One sunny day in January, 2017, an old man approached the White House from across Pennsylvania Avenue where he’d been sitting on a park bench. He spoke to the U.S. Marine standing guard and said, “I would like to go in and meet with President Obama. ”The Marine looked at the man and said, “Sir, Mr. Obama is no longer President and no longer resides here. ”The old man said, “Okay,” and walked away.
The following day the same man approached the White House and said to the same Marine, “I would like to go in and meet with President Obama. ”The Marine again told the man, “Sir, as I said yesterday, Mr. Obama is no longer President and no longer resides here. ”The man thanked him and again just walked away. The third day the same man approached the White House and spoke to the very same U.S. Marine, saying, “I would like to go in and meet with President Obama.” The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the man and said, “Sir, this is the third day in a row you have been here asking to speak to Mr. Obama. I’ve told you already that Mr. Obama is no longer the President and no longer resides here. Don’t you understand?
”The old man looked at the Marine and said, “Oh, I understand. I just love hearing it.” The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, “See you tomorrow, Sir!”
Mark says
https://youtu.be/rUZfsryMqvc
Cayman says
Obama’s “Transformation of America” was two-fold. The unspoken second was destroying and transforming the world by inserting islam in large enough numbers to gain the birth of a foothold that would be difficult if not impossible to eradicate unless strong leadership existed. His bow to the Saudi King told them that they could now proceed with world jihad funded by tens of years of collecting and depositing in Western banks oil money. No refugees have been settled in Saudi. That would be counter-productive to their cause. Obama transformed European leadership to follow his agenda and the Saudis funded the invasion. That’s called strategy. A strategy in planning for a hundred years.
Cayman says
Islam has learned well. Islam has been relatively quiet for 500 years because it had no money to build invasion armies. Now it has dumbed-down homeland defenders and politicians like Merkel in most European countries, money (your oil money), and its army is the migrants and its birthrate.
Angemon says
Right, we all remember how NATO was behind the Cuban Missile Crisis… /sarc. off
I have no respect for her, she was a terrible leader who endangered not only her people but Europe as a whole. When you think of Benedict Arnold you don’t think of a “great general” who made “one very catastrophic mistake”, you think of a traitor, because that “one very catastrophic mistake” was big enough to define him. Same with Merkel.
True as this may be, it’s worth noting that muslim “migration” from former British Empire provinces has little, if anything, to do with EU guidelines. Most muslims in Britain are either Pakistanis or descendants of Pakistanis. In France, the same thing: most muslims come from former French colonies. Maybe European nations should stop giving special status to, and privileging, “migration” from their former colonies.
davej says
Nothing succeeds like success. Islam can hardly believe it’s luck, never before would the West have invited it to colonize the lands of the infidels, while proclaiming it to be the Religion of Peace. And at the same time financing the invasion with their own oil dollars. They see they have won some sort of history lottery, which is why they are so excited and confident.
Nuclear weapons are also nearly within their grasp, they anticipate winning over the passive nations with the demographic bomb and crushing the few assertive ones with the actual bomb.
Peggy says
Wellington says
January 17, 2017 at 6:02 pm
Settled down now, Peggy? Things never settle down with Islam.
Moreover, there are many Eastern European leaders like those of the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland who have the strengths and resolve that Putin has but without his sinister side
==========================
Hi Wellington,
I did say that we can’t keep Islam fully at bay now because there are too many among us but I also said that compared to how much Islam is hurting European countries in comparison to Russia is far greater so Russia must be doing something we are not.
It’s very clear that you don’t like or trust Putin. I don’t trust any politician but we must put our faith in someone and decide which one is going to represent us.
Starting an alliance with Putin and severing them with Turkey and all other Jihadists sounds like a plan to me.
Seeing how we have the players that we do, good or bad, how do we proceed in order to safeguard the world from WW3?
Do we take Putin into an alliance with us and team up to damage Islam as much as we can or do we continue to threaten Putin, send troops to his border and continue to stay in bed with the likes of Saudis?
What is your suggestion? I am not too clear on that.
Wellington says
Work, Peggy, with Putin but never forget this is a bad (albeit clever) dude who doesn’t like the West and who hates the fact that countries like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are no longer a part of a “Greater Mother Russia.”
You said you don’t trust any politician. Sorry, I’m not that cynical. I “only” don’t trust most politicians. God knows Putin is not in this minority here. Indeed, he is not to be messed with or you are dead, as several Russian journalists and other critics of Putin have “found out.” Truly, I am so tired of defenses of this authoritarian who has, as gravenimage has detailed, been kissy/face, huggy/bear with Islam again and again and one who thinks his real enemy is not Islam, nor the authoritarian Chinese, but the West, which pioneered more human rights than all other civilizations and cultures combined have. The fact that Putin has hostility first and foremost not to the authoritarian Chinese or to the Islamic world at large, but very much does so to the West at large, speaks VOLUMES about this man, though I don’t think you and others get this.
As for your not being too clear on my suggestion, well, I will refer you, for starters, to my 5:05 P.M post of today, January 17th, to Daniel Triplett, though I should think my 6:02 P.M. post on this thread to you would have functioned as a good (and clear) introduction on my thinking. But give my 5:05 P.M. post to DT a complete reading and then get back to me on what you may not be clear about respecting suggestions by yours truly. I’ll be happy to clarify what you still think is murky about my thoughts on Putin, on Islam, on the world at large.
Peggy says
What I am not clear on is how far you think the alliance with Putin should go.
You say work with him but don’t trust him. If we are to work with him, then we have to trust him because we will be making plans to hit ISIS and he has to be part of it.
You also say that he hates the west more than he hates Muslims of Chinese.
I don’t think that. I think that he doesn’t trust the west and isn’t going to just leave himself open for any attacks. The way western governments have treated Russia is no wonder he isn’t going to be naive and lower his defences.
Who is expanding into whose territory? Russia was given assurances that NATO isn’t going to expand to their doorstep but here we are, NATO has expanded and that is very provocative. Is Russia setting up bases on US doorstep? So who is showing to who that they are going to be enemies.
Frankly I don’t blame Putin for being nervous but still he wants to mend fences and is prepared to work with Trump. All this tells me that he is no enemy of the west.
You say he is friendly with Muslims. The west and especially the US are more than just friendly with jihadists. They support them and have supported them for a long time now. If anyone’s in bed with Islam it’s the west. All the biggest scum like SA and Qatar are good to be friends with but Putin trying to work with the Muslims inside his country in order to achieve as much peace as possible is condemned.
What exactly has Putin done that a US government hasn’t done around the globe.
There is more than one way to take over a country so this isn’t exclusive to Russia. How many countries has the US destabilized in order to put in their own puppet to rule by proxy?
Don’t take this as slinging mud at the west because of some dislike. Telling the truth isn’t hatred, so if we are going to go after Putin for overthrow of countries I think the west has a much more impressive score on that one.
We all have our own observations and conclusions from that. You see things one way and I the other way. We can look at the same evidence and have different conclusions.
That’s why I asked you how exactly do you see working with Putin would be. I see Putin wanting to look after his interests and the west their interests. There is plenty for all.
You claim that he hates the fact that some countries are no longer part of Russia. What evidence gives you that opinion? Has he tried to invade them?
He has only gone into Ukraine because that part was Russian and his people live there. He hasn’t occupied a country which part never belonged to Russia.
He hasn’t taken land away from a country and made up a new country from that like the west has done in the Balkans. He only wants what actually belongs to him.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“Who is expanding into whose territory? ”
Let’s ask Ukraine, shall we? And while we’re there, maybe we should ask former members of the Warsaw pact what they think about Putin’s ambitions.
“He has only gone into Ukraine because that part was Russian and his people live there. He hasn’t occupied a country which part never belonged to Russia.”
No, it wasn’t – it was Ukrainian. BTW, nice shooting yourself on the foot there – what other “countries which parts at one point belonged to Russia” can he “”legitimately” invade by your “logic”?
“He only wants what actually belongs to him.”
Ah, so Crimea “belongs to him”, eh? What else? What else “belongs to him”? All other parts of the former USSR?
Daniel Triplett says
Great post Peggy.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“It’s very clear that you don’t like or trust Putin. ”
And there it is – the attempt to reduce legitimate criticism of Putin to a matter of personal animus. Much easier to say “you just don’t like Putin” than trying to explain some of Putin’s actions that don’t match your claims, right?
“Do we take Putin into an alliance with us and team up to damage Islam as much as we can or do we continue to threaten Putin, send troops to his border and continue to stay in bed with the likes of Saudis?”
False dichotomy, mischaracterizations, etc. – you can’t have an alliance with someone who is unwilling to do so, and seeing how Russian state media is spewing anti-Trump propaganda, I’d say Russia is not interested in teaming up with the US, Trump or no Trump. As for the Saudis, how are Iranians any better than them (I’d argue they’re even worse, being the #1 terrorism-sponsoring nation in the world), and why is Putin in bed with a nation that repeatedly swore to wipe Israel out of the map and is actively pursuing nuclear weapons to make good on their threats? Call me old-fashioned, but I believe facts matter…
Wellington says
Seconded again, Angemon.
Peggy says
Hi,
I wasn’t looking for any arguments. I feel we can talk about a subject like this and have differences of opinion. After all, that’s what a democracy is. If you don’t wish to do that but have your watch dog answer for you and all you do is ok it then fine. Because I have no desire to engage with Angemon and he is free to say anything he wants to me even when I am not having a conversation with him I am not going to debate anything he said.
If you had replied to me I might have touched on some of it but since I don’t want an unpleasant exchange I will leave it at that.
Have a pleasant day.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“I wasn’t looking for any arguments.”
No, you’re never looking for arguments – you just want to have your say and face no opposition whatsoever…
“I feel we can talk about a subject like this and have differences of opinion.”
And I’m sure that you’ll prove what you say by actually talking and discussing it with me then. Right? You wouldn’t be just trying to play the victim here, trying to pretend that you have the moral high ground only to bash me for no reason and avoid addressing my arguments, right?
“After all, that’s what a democracy is.”
I know what a democracy is and how it works. It’s you I have doubts about, seeing how you have, in the past, tried to get site staff to censor me.
“If you don’t wish to do that but have your watch dog answer for you and all you do is ok it then fine.”
And there it is – the brazen dismissal. “I’m all for talk and discussion”, she says, only before dismissing whatever opposing views she’s faced with. Because, you know, people just listen to what you say and never, ever take into account how you act, right?
“Because I have no desire to engage with Angemon and he is free to say anything he wants to me”
Indeed – that much was told to you by site staff when you tried to have them to create a rule blocking me from replying to you – even though you say you’re all about “discussion” and “talk”. “Discussion” and “talk”? Only if with with like-minded individuals telling one another how right they are and how wrong everyone else is…
Wellington says
You weren’t looking for any arguments, Peggy? C’mon.
As for one-on-one replying to you, I have many times and on many other threads. So don’t set up a straw man and then knock him down.
Look, I think Putin is a very bad dude. As one Russian I spoke to when Putin first came to power back in 2000 said to me, “Once KGB, always KGB.” Nailed it I’d say——and this was from a Russian.
What Putin did in Crimea is despicable (threatening Poland and the Czech Republic with massive retaliation for accepting an EXTREMELY limited defense from the US was too, since said missile defense could knock down only a missile or two when Russia could pummel said countries with HUNDREDS of nuclear missiles).
Just imagine if several southern Texas counties declared by way of Mexican propaganda that they were now part of Mexico again (as all of Texas was before the Mexican War, 1846-48). And let’s further assume Mexico was a great military power (there’s a laugh for you I know) and America had a weakling in the Oval Office at the time (with Obama this would be the case) and America did nothing but futilely protest that this should not be done. Would you stand by said counties now being part of Mexico? I hope you get my drift here. If you don’t, then you will probably remain forever clueless.
Here’s my assessment of Putin in microcosm: He’s a tragedy for Russia. He has continued the stupid xenophobia by Russia of Czars and First Secretaries. The ultimate harm he will do is not to the West (unless the West lets him and with fools like Merkel and May in charge this could occur) but to Russia itself. With an enlightened ruler, Russia could have been in NATO by now, one who understood freedom as so many Eastern European nations like Poland and Hungary have. Instead, Russia got another control-freak authoritarian. Sure he’s better than a Stalin or a Lenin but measure him by a Washington, a Lincoln, a Churchill, and you can readily see, unless you are completely blind, what another tragedy he is for Russia, for the West, for freedom.
In short, Putin is a giant negative. Just another smart authoritarian with loads of bad ideas who will not benefit his nation at all in the long run. What a waste.
Angemon says
Wellington posted:
“The ultimate harm he will do is not to the West (unless the West lets him and with fools like Merkel and May in charge this could occur) but to Russia itself. ”
Indeed.
gravenimage says
I agree–Putin is *hardly* the threat Islam is, but this does not mean he is a good guy.
And he is not a clear ally against the threat of Jihad, either–he has been very inconsistent in fighting Islam–he has been as apt to enable Jihad as to oppose it.
I would not rule out limited alliances of the West with Russia–perhaps to face down ISIS–but as during WWII, I would keep my eyes open and my hand on my proverbial wallet.
Angemon says
gravenimage posted:
“I would not rule out limited alliances of the West with Russia–perhaps to face down ISIS–but as during WWII, I would keep my eyes open and my hand on my proverbial wallet.”
Yup. While I may chuckle at a good “come home, Benji” meme, I also give credit where and when credit is due. Back in 2002, before the second Gulf War, when Russia was defying international sanctions and buying oil from Iran and Saddam, Ben Shapiro speculated on what might happen down the line and warned about the possibility of a new Cold War. I know his departure from Breitbart and overall stance regarding Trump lost him more than a few friends/followers, but the man is a brilliant analyst and should not be disregarded because of partisan politics.
Peggy says
Wellington says
January 18, 2017 at 8:57 pm
You weren’t looking for any arguments, Peggy? C’mon.
As for one-on-one replying to you, I have many times and on many other threads. So don’t set up a straw man and then knock him down.
=============================
If you are going to start a conversation with me by calling me a liar then I am afraid you have lost me.
I was not looking for an argument. I was putting my views to you just like you put your views to me. I don’t accuse you of looking for an argument when you reply with opposite views to mine do I?
You say:
So don’t set up a straw man and then knock him down.
Gee, where have I seen this expression before?
If you are going to treat expression of my views which don’t contain any put downs as an argument then we better not “argue” because I don’t want to be called a liar when I say that I wasn’t looking for an argument.
Yes, you have replied to me one on one before and I certainly don’t expect you to reply to all my posts or my replies to you but it would be nice if you wanted to say what Angemon said actually did say it to me so that I could if I wanted to respond.
If you are going to treat my opinions as arguments then it’s really a shame.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“If you are going to start a conversation with me by calling me a liar then I am afraid you have lost me.”
Were you lying? If so, what’s the problem in pointing it out?
“I was not looking for an argument. I was putting my views to you just like you put your views to me. ”
How typical of you: when you say something you generally don’t present it as an “opinion” or “view” – it’s only when someone challenges what you say that you go “well, what I said was just an opinion” or “well, that’ your opinion”.
“If you are going to treat expression of my views which don’t contain any put downs as an argument”
Right, because dismissing someone’s rebuttal of you as a “watch dog answer” is in no way a “put down” and not likely to spark an argument…
“but it would be nice if you wanted to say what Angemon said actually did say it to me so that I could if I wanted to respond”
Or you can actually respond to what I say instead of asking others to tell you what I said. There was someone else here who did just that – refused to have his opinions challenged and his replies to me often were “can someone please tell me what Angemon is saying to me?”. A petty and childish attitude, IMO, akin to a moody child going “I can’t hear that person talking. Is anyone else hearing them?”, but if that’s how you want to come across, no skin off my nose…
“ you are going to treat my opinions as arguments then it’s really a shame.”
Your “opinions”? Since when do you mark what you say as “opinion” before someone challenges them? And how often to do actually address the challenge with something more substantial than a cop-ot like “it was just my opinion” or “that’s your opinion”?”
Linda Rivera says
NATO is a HUGE DANGER to Every Non-Muslim on earth because Muslim Turkey is a member of NATO. It’s a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY that Turkey was made a member of NATO. Not that long ago Muslim Turkey perpetrated a SATANIC GENOCIDE of MILLIONS of Christian innocents in the Armenian Genocide.
The UK Daily Mail reported that what Muslim Turks did to the Christians was so terrible, the atrocities were worse than ISIS. Turkey is UNREPENTANT and even CELEBRATES the Genocide.
Turkey must NEVER be made a member of the European Union. Both EU and British leaders want Turkey to have EU membership.
Wellington says
Your ignorance is showing most glaringly, Linda. When Turkey was made a member of NATO back in the 1950s is was a completely secularized nation thanks to Ataturk. It served as a bulwark against Russian (Soviet) designs in the Mediterranean.
Yes, of course, now Ataturk’s sensible approach to Islam has been overturned by that malicious fool, Erdogan, but, historically speaking, Turkey in NATO served a very important purpose. Oh, I fully understand the whole denial by Turkey under Ataturk of the Armenian genocide, and this cannot be excused, but remember America and Britain made an alliance during WWII with just about the most savage ruler of all time, Stalin, in order to defeat another savage ruler, Hitler. Or would you have counseled against this alliance too?
I hope you grasp my overall point and that is that free nations must often align with less than free nations in order to overcome the malady du jour. Do you get any of this?
Linda Rivera says
Until the day I die I will NEVER forget that led by Bill Clinton, US/NATO waged a Ruthless, Merciless
WAR for their BIG FAVOURITES, the Extremely BARBARIC KLA Muslim terrorist organisation against Christian Serb innocents.
THEIR BLOOD CRIES OUT FROM THE GROUND TO GOD
Peggy says
The west has supported KLA who extracted organs from Serb civilians for profit. God knows how brutally they did that too. There are some reports that the victims were not anaesthetised/
UN along with US knew about this but ICJ in Hague destroyed the evidence/
Carla Del Ponte was a judge at that court back then and has written a book which mentions this.
The west knew what was going on but didn’t care and still supported the criminals in their declaration of independence.
But still, let’s just throw everything we have at Putin for he is the bad guy for going into Ukraine and protecting his own people there.
Yes, part of Ukraine was always Russian but Kosovo was never Albanian to take nor American to give away.
Angemon says
Peggy posted:
“The west knew what was going on but didn’t care and still supported the criminals in their declaration of independence.”
Citation needed. BTW, is that your opinion or are you asserting it as a fact? And, it should go without saying, “the West” is NOT a monolith, you know? Plenty of nations and people here. With a common core of rules and values, sure, but your assertion goes way beyond that.
“But still, let’s just throw everything we have at Putin for he is the bad guy for going into Ukraine and protecting his own people there.”
And there you go again, dismissing criticism or scepticism of Putin by pretending it was only his invasion of Ukraine that might have raised someone else’s eyebrows. Putin, the man who in 2005 said that Russia was the protector of the islamic world. But no, let’s raise the Crimea strawman, “defeat” it by saying Crimea, who was a province of Ukraine, was always Russian, and pretend everyone else is wrong.
“Yes, part of Ukraine was always Russian”
If it was Ukrainian then it wasn’t Russian – mutually exclusive.
“but Kosovo was never Albanian to take nor American to give away.”
You’re using the same false equivalence and tu-quoquery as any given Hillary supporter.
Linda Rivera says
US/NATO Achieved their WICKED GOAL in Kosovo: A Muslim TERROR State in the Heart of Europe.
NATO is used to wage war for Muslim terrorists on Christian innocents.