A Palestinian state would, like Gaza, be simply another jihad base from which “Palestinians” would launch new attacks against the State of Israel. That the Pope would validate it in this way is an unconscionable granting of the Catholic Church’s imprimatur both to the fictional “Palestinian people,” who were invented by the KGB and Yasir Arafat in the 1960s to counter the view of the tiny Jewish state surrounded by numerous gargantuan Arab states, and to the Palestinian jihad, which seeks a new genocide of the Jews, with “Palestinians” openly celebrating the murder of Israeli civilians.
The very “Palestinians” whose cause Pope Francis is aiding and abetting will, given the chance, oppress and subjugate the Christians in their domains as dhimmis, deprived of basic rights under Islamic law. In Israel, by contrast, Christians live in freedom. The Pope is betraying his own people.
“Leave them; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:14)
“BREAKING: Vatican opens Palestinian embassy ahead of critical summit in Paris,” Christians United for Israel, January 13, 2017:
The Pope is set to open a Palestinian embassy at The Vatican this weekend, in what is a hugely significant move by the papacy.
The inauguration of the embassy on Friday, attended by Palestinian Authority leader, Mahmoud Abbas, takes place just two days before 70 nations gather in Paris to vote on an anti-Israel decree.
PA President Mahmoud Abbas will also meet with Pope Francis on Saturday. This will be the third time the two have met. When they met last year, Pope Francis referred to Abbas as “an angel of peace”. The Vatican later explained that the reference was mistranslated, and in fact was meant as encouragement for Abbas to pursue peace with Israel.
As head of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas has been accused of inciting violence against Jews. Abbas is also the chairman of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) which was recognised by Israel and the US as a terror organisation until 1991.
Israel does have an embassy in Vatican City, but the Vatican Embassy in Israel is in Tel Aviv, whilst the Vatican has an “embassy to Palestine” located in East Jerusalem. The Vatican officially recognised a Palestinian State almost two years ago.
Pope helps to undermine peace by today opening a “Palestinian embassy” at the Vatican. @CUFI_UK https://t.co/OOBV5k54SD
— Rɪᴄʜᴀʀᴅ Kᴇᴍᴘ (@COLRICHARDKEMP) January 13, 2017
Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad Maliki confirmed that Abbas will primarily be raising issue with incoming President-elect Donald Trump, who is set to take office next week, and his proposed plan to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem….

Mong says
Pope can go to hell as far as I’m concerned. He’s probably a peodo like the last one anyway. Sick people trying to lead us a stray, using the lords name to do it too. Very sick.
gravenimage says
Why would you think Pope Benedict was a “peodo”?
Tom says
Mong is stating a generalization that, like so many pedophile priests, the current Pope is also a pedophile. While I would disagree with that broad statement, as I have not seen any evidence indicating such activity, I do question this man’s [Pope’s] judgment.
The Roman Catholic Church [RCC] seems to be bowing to Islam; as to why, I cannot fathom. It is a shame, as the Pope has an ideal opportunity to raise the consciousness of every Catholic and recruit many new people to the flock by disavowing Islam. He refuses to do it!
Your Holiness: you have a real chance to save the RCC. Attack Islam for the sick ideology that it is and regain a foothold on the church and push back the secularization that is ruining the RCC.
Aterg says
You said it well. He is a communist thinker and a shame to the church as such. He should mind the church and its Jude’s-Hristian ethics and do not play politics.
Kay says
Press Release from Holy See:
This morning the Holy Father Francis received in audience His Excellency Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, president of the State of Palestine, who subsequently met with His Eminence Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, accompanied by His Excellency Archbishop Paul Richard Gallagher, secretary for Relations with States.
During the cordial discussions, the parties evoked the existing good relations between the Holy See and Palestine, sealed by the Global Agreement of 2015, which regards essential aspects of the life and activity of the Church in Palestinian society. In this context, mention was made of the important contribution of Catholics to favouring the promotion of human dignity and assistance for those most in need, especially in the fields of education, health and aid.
Attention then turned to the peace process in the Middle East, and hope was expressed that direct negotiations between the Parties may be resumed to bring an end to the violence that causes unacceptable suffering to civilian populations, and to find a just and lasting solution. To this end, it is hoped that, with the support of the international community, measures can be taken that favour mutual trust and contribute to creating a climate that permits courageous decisions to be made in favour of peace. Emphasis was placed on the importance of safeguarding the sanctity of the Holy Places for believers of all three of the Abrahamic religions. Finally, particular attention was dedicated to the other conflicts affecting the region.
Father Samir Khalil SAMIR, SJ says
All the insults that I read in some of the comments are shameful and unworthy of this site.
1) Pope Francis is a man who seeks to build PEACE among peoples. What he said about Islam as “a religion of PEACE” was not correct, as I explained to him in my personal meeting with him for 30 minutes on Monday, 6 June 2016. I also gave him my book “Violence and non-violence in the Qur’an and Islam” and 3 other articles from me on the question. Its objective is to restore the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Muslim world, interrupted for nearly 6 years, and it has succeeded: the meeting is scheduled for the month of February in Cairo.
2) His meeting with President Mahmoud Abbas goes in the same direction: it is about building together PEACE. The State of Palestine exists, recognized by the United Nations, just as the State of Israel exists. It is not the USA that decides whether or not a state exists, but the United Nations, notwithstanding certain readers. However, the State of Palestine never invaded the State of Israel, or occupied a single square meter of that State. On the other hand, the State of Israel invades periodically the State of Palestine, occupies a part of it after having driven the Palestinian inhabitants. In my opinion, the invading State (whatever it is) is a terrorist state.
3) Pope Francis — who is neither American, nor Palestinian, nor Israeli — does not judge with feelings, but according to the INTERNATIONAL LAW. If we want to live in PEACE –and this is the primary goal of every reasonable citizen –, INTERNATIONAL decisions must be respected, even if they are questionable. They could be discussed, but as long as they exist they must be applied. I am convinced that PEACE is possible between these two States, and that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want it. They must be helped to achieve it by scrupulously respecting INTERNATIONAL decisions, even if it means reviewing certain points.
4) Finally, it is a serious mistake to mix religion with this question, as a great many of the citizens of the two States unfortunately do. It is a question of INTERNATIONAL politics, which can only be resolved by INTERNATIONAL Law. It is not a matter of sentiment or sensitivity. The problem is POLITICAL, it is not sentimental or religious.
Father Samir Khalil SAMIR, SJ (Professor of Islamology and Middle East Christianity at the Pontifical Oriental Institute)
Robert Spencer says
Fr. Samir:
Thank you for your comments.
1. He appears not to have heeded your wise counsel in regard to the nature of Islam. What good is a “dialogue” with the Muslim world when it is based on false pretenses?
2. In reality, the Arabs (the “Palestinians” had not yet been invented, as they would be in the 1960s by the KGB and Yasir Arafat) rejected a Palestinian Arab state in 1948, and the surrounding Arab states invaded the State of Israel with the intention of destroying it. By your own statement that “the invading State (whatever it is) is a terrorist state,” Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Saudi Arabia are terrorist states for invading Israel at that time. Your claim that “the State of Israel invades periodically the State of Palestine” ignores the fact that these “invasions” are preceded in every case, without exception, by rocket attacks by “Palestinians” against Israel, murders of Israeli civilians that are celebrated by “Palestinians,” etc. The fact is undeniable that if the “Palestinians” laid down their arms, there would be peace, while if the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be a new genocide of the Jews, as is frequently called for on official Palestinian television stations.
3. Your claim that the majority of “Palestinians” want peace is belied by surveys showing that “Palestinians” overwhelmingly favor the imposition of Sharia (which would deny Christians basic rights), as well as suicide bombings: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/1/pew-poll-palestinians-favor-suicide-bombings-shari/
4. As you no doubt know well from your study of Islam, in Islam the religious and the political cannot be so easily separated.
Kindest regards,
Robert Spencer
JayT says
Father Samir Khalil SAMIR, SJ says
January 15, 2017 at 8:12 am
All the insults that I read in some of the comments are shameful and unworthy of this site.
———————————————————————————————————————–
In other words, you will judge who can express a contrary opinion to the Pope and who cannot.
Instead of chastising the messages perhaps you should focus on providing better leadership that exemplifies why such “insults” are misguided?
“Stop complaining about the leaks in my rubber dingy, or I’ll start complaining about you.” – Fix the dingy?
Which Pope was it again that called for the Crusades? That begs the question of which Pope had the right of it in regards to Islamic expansion – the past one or the present one? I’ll vote for the past one.
gravenimage says
Father Samir Khalil SAMIR, SJ wrote:
All the insults that I read in some of the comments are shameful and unworthy of this site.
………………………….
Unless you can indicate otherwise, most of these comments are concerned with Pope Francis’s unwitting enabling of a terrorist state, and the harm this will do to the citizens of civilized Israel–including Christians there.
More:
1) Pope Francis is a man who seeks to build PEACE among peoples.
………………………….
Unfortunately, legitimizing a terrorist state will not accomplish that, and good people have the right to point this out.
More:
What he said about Islam as “a religion of PEACE” was not correct, as I explained to him in my personal meeting with him for 30 minutes on Monday, 6 June 2016. I also gave him my book “Violence and non-violence in the Qur’an and Islam” and 3 other articles from me on the question.
………………………….
I’m glad you realize this, Father Samir, and that you shared your findings with the pontiff.
Being based in Egypt and Lebanon, I’m sure you have seen the depredations of Islam and the suffering it has caused up close. I’m sure you know how threatened the Christian community is throughout the Levant and Middle East–except in Israel.
And yet, you appear here to blame Israel for defending herself against Hizb’allah, and to believe that hatred of Israel by Muslims is justified:
“Fr. Samir: ‘A Decalogue for Peace in the Middle East’”
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/80221?eng=y
In fact, you even said, “Praise be to God!” that Israel was unable ten years ago to destroy terrorist group Hizb’allah–you even put “terrorism” in sneer quotes. Very concerning.
I disagree that the desire to destroy Israel has nothing to do with religion–this is, in fact, a classic Jihad, and is driven by the same Muslim supremacy that has devastated Christians in the birthplace of their faith.
More:
Its objective is to restore the dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Muslim world, interrupted for nearly 6 years, and it has succeeded: the meeting is scheduled for the month of February in Cairo.
………………………….
“Six years”? Is this a reference to the papacy of Pope Benedict? All he did was assert–as is accurate–that Islam is not a religion of peace, a realization you say you share.
And what has this “dialogue” every achieved, save to lull the victims of Islam, including Catholics, into a false sense of security so they can be further victimized by violent Muslims? Certainly, it has never led to Muslims becoming more peaceful–in fact, the rate of violent Jihad, including attacks on Christians, has been skyrocketing for decades.
More:
2) His meeting with President Mahmoud Abbas goes in the same direction: it is about building together PEACE. The State of Palestine exists, recognized by the United Nations, just as the State of Israel exists. It is not the USA that decides whether or not a state exists, but the United Nations, notwithstanding certain readers. However, the State of Palestine never invaded the State of Israel, or occupied a single square meter of that State. On the other hand, the State of Israel invades periodically the State of Palestine, occupies a part of it after having driven the Palestinian inhabitants. In my opinion, the invading State (whatever it is) is a terrorist state.
………………………….
Israel is, in fact, under a constant state of siege from the “Palestinian” Muslims. Israel only responds when attacked.
And it is notable that Muslims were not at peace with Israel pre-1967–if they were really happy then, surely this would have been the case.
But the fact is that the “Palestinians”–Fatah and Hamas and their predecessors the PLO–have always openly had as their goal not a “two state solution”, but the outright destruction of Israel.
This does not enable “peace”–unless your view of “peace” is a lot of dead Israelis.
More:
3) Pope Francis — who is neither American, nor Palestinian, nor Israeli — does not judge with feelings, but according to the INTERNATIONAL LAW. If we want to live in PEACE –and this is the primary goal of every reasonable citizen –, INTERNATIONAL decisions must be respected, even if they are questionable. They could be discussed, but as long as they exist they must be applied. I am convinced that PEACE is possible between these two States, and that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want it. They must be helped to achieve it by scrupulously respecting INTERNATIONAL decisions, even if it means reviewing certain points.
………………………….
Enabling the emboldening of Islam is not going to lead to peace, I’m afraid–just possibly the destruction of the Middle East’s only democracy, and the only place where Christians live in peace and security.
More:
4) Finally, it is a serious mistake to mix religion with this question, as a great many of the citizens of the two States unfortunately do. It is a question of INTERNATIONAL politics, which can only be resolved by INTERNATIONAL Law. It is not a matter of sentiment or sensitivity. The problem is POLITICAL, it is not sentimental or religious.
………………………….
Muslims–including the “Palestinians”–regularly note that their desire to destroy Israel is rooted in Islamic Jew hatred. Really, the issues cannot be separated–except by ignoring the goal of Islam in seeking the destruction of Israel.
linnte says
Pope Francis is not SUPPOSED to “judge” by International Law. He is the so called leader of Christendom and should judge by what Jesus said and did. And you should KNOW that also. As in Revelations, he and you have LOST YOUR FIRST LOVE. If that isn’t Anti-Christ, then what is?
anon says
The state of Palestine does not exist. The United Nations is a corrupt organization and yet another front for Satan’s religion (Islam). It needs to be defunded and dismantled.
Pope Francis is an heretic and blasphemer by kowtowing to Islamic supremacists and letting the Catholic Church become diminished.
John Butler says
Dear Father Samir
I can’t begin to really comprehend the issues with the Palestinians and Israel. I’ll leave that ‘Gordian’s Knot’ to so-called experts.
As a Catholic, however, I’m deeply concerned by this Pope’s positioning regarding Islam. He is not, it appears, making it his priority to speak out about the persecution of Christians, preferring to Kow Tow to Islam and house Muslims in the Vatican and at each opportunity to repeat the slogan that Islam is a religion of peace.
He should be establishing safe zones for Christians and, if he sees himself as a world shepherd, safe havens for the many Muslims who wish to apostascise and exit what is (but he fails to clarify) a demonic cult.
Les says
Dear Father
In the spirit of VII and the new evangelization I understand your defense of dialogue. But what is very obvious and for 1,400 years is the fact that Islam is the anti-Christ and main persecutor of Christianity and Jews.
Just like you cannot dialogue with Satan nor can the Pope dialogue with the Islam, PLO, Nazis, Soviet Union Etc who existed solely to do Satan’s will.
Islam is first and foremost a political system disguised as a religion but in reality a cult that seeks to permanently subjugate its followers and eliminate all infidels. But it was also clearly created by Satan to mock Christians and Jews by perverting our Book.
Islamism is a political system created from hell that needs a total implosion. One way to cause this implosion is for the Pope to ask our Holy Mother to intercede like she did to help end the Soviet Union. The sooner the Church calls for the conversion of Islam, the sooner it will fall just like Nazism and the Soviet Union. Then we will have true peace.
R says
I was going to respond but I see that you’ve had your @ss handed to yourself already, Father.
RAB says
A classic example of “turning a blind eye!” Not a word about the on-going murder of innocent Israeli citizens by “Palestinian patriots” Nothing about the Hamas charter which calls for the total destruction of Israel regardless of so-called negotiations; nothing about the Hamas creed: “We love death more than you love life”; nothing about the perennial hatred of the Jews in the Koran; and no thought whatsoever that the new “Palestinian state” might be used as a final base from which to attack Israel. The entire world has gone mad. I’m going back to sleep. Wake me up when it’s all over. This is futile.
JIMJFOX says
Vatican supported Hitler % helped thousands of Nazis escape to S America; it is merely being consistent, now with IslamoNazis.
Dan says
Jim,
While I agree 100%, this pope is being a colossal idiot, it’s been proven a long time ago that Pope Pius from the Second World War was virulently anti Nazi and anti communist.
Read “Disinformation” by General Ion Pacepa for starters.
And after that, some works by Michael Coren.
“Hitler’s Pope” by Cornwell, has been debunked a long time ago.
Until I did some follow up research, I believed the same as you about Pius.
Now THIS Pope, unless he’s got some secret cunning Baldrig plan that depends upon absolute secrecy, WILL be remembered in that fashion. Probably as Mohamed’s Pope.
NYgal says
The rat lines smuggling Nazis from Europe to South America did run through the Vatican and many Nazis did travel with Vatican Passports.
TH says
This is totally false. Provide evidence of it. The notion of Hitler’s Pope has been totally debunked. Go and learn a minimum of real history before you make such absurd comments.
Ron Barak says
Took me awhile to guess you probably meant Baldrick{?}
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldrick)
gravenimage says
Dan and TH are right. The Vatican and Catholics actually saved many Jews from the Holocaust. The idea that the pontiff was pro-Nazi is false.
Anne Smith says
Puts one in mind of “The Boys from Brazil” perhaps Pope Francis has a rather suspect father.
Manual Paleologos says
Actually, they didn’t. Pius XII was involved in just about every anti-Hitler assassination plot, all the way to July 20th. Read Church of Spies, Very well footnoted and a fascinating account.
Steve Klein says
This is reflective of much of today’s Europe.
JIMJFOX says
Typo- &, not ‘%’. PLEASE give us an edit function!!
Thelastvirgingoat says
You can always count on the Vatican to take the wrong side. It’s time they got disbanded.
Kepha says
Well, we Protestants have been calling for the disbanding of the Vatican ever since the 1500’s.
God dispenses salvation through his Word and Spirit (the last-mentioned being the true Vicar of Christ, per the Upper Room Discourse in John), not through the administration of little doses by the right organization. This is the heart of the conflict between evangelical and sacerdotal principles.
Ron Barak says
+1 on the edit function.
Mayhaps jihadwatch.org could consider switching to using disqus (https://disqus.com/), which IMO is much more user-friendly.
EmHotep says
Sorry but this is not jihad … I don’t think western people know what is jihad 🙂
JawsV says
Islamic Holy War.
linnte says
Oh yes we do. And we know Western Muslims do too. In fact, some here know what Jihad means, better than most Western Muslims.
JawsV says
Francis is so dumb it’s incredible. The Pope sucking up to Muslims. Disgusting.
Greyhound Fancier says
Some think refusal to do the same played a role in Pope Benedict’s unprecedented “retirement”.
Denny says
Papa Frank is not “dumb”; he’s EVIL. Only God can exterminate ‘evil’ —and HE Will !!
theendofthedemonrat says
Wonder how much $$$$$$$$ the Vatican is receiving from the mossies. $ is somehow always involved.
Gail griffin says
Maybe by being magnanimous to Abbas Christians will get a break in the Muslim populace. Maybe! It’s his job to be like Jesus.
gravenimage says
Gail, the “Palestinians” continue to brutalize, oppress, drive out, and murder Christians. No amount of appeasement from the Vatican or anywhere else is apt to change that–rather, if it makes any difference it is apt to embolden Muslim savagery.
somehistory says
According to an article in Gatestone, the declaration signed by the u.n. vultures and the meeting tomorrow in Paris, is to get all of the Jews out of Jerusalem and other parts of Israel (Judea and Samaria) and, not only to return to the former borders, but to make those borders unchangeable in the future.
These two snakes are just adding their voices to the cry for Israel to be quickly overtaken and destroyed.
“There is no peace for the wicked, my God has said.”
So they can say the word “peace” but they will never see it.
no_one says
It should be reminded that the pope is not a leader of the Christian world. RCC is not the one holy catholic and apostolic church from the creed. Orthodox church is. The testimony for this happens every year on orthodox Holy Saturday in the Resurrection Church in old Jerusalem. The miracle is known as Holy Fire and is not a hoax. RCC is trying to hide it or claim it a hoax, because it doesn’t happen for them. If palestinians take over the old city of Jerusalem, it may be unsafe for Christian pilgrims who go there. Jerusalem has to be the eternal capital of Israel.
Tatyana Solovey says
It was, it is and it will. Amen
Achmed says
It never was. Worshipping statues and praying to anything, other than the one true G-d, is a blasphemy. Ergo, I truly pray that it shall never be. Amen,
gravenimage says
no_one wrote:
It should be reminded that the pope is not a leader of the Christian world. RCC is not the one holy catholic and apostolic church from the creed. Orthodox church is.
…………………..
Oh, good grief–the “other Christians are not really Christian” thing. Telling Robert Spencer he is a false Christian–along with most other Christians here–does not help matters.
And your unspoken point seems to be that Orthodox Christians do not enable Islam–would that this were true:
“West should learn from Russia to accept Muslim refugees – Patriarch Kirill”
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12354
Tradiguy says
I have said it before on here and I say it again. This creature on the throne of St Peter is not a pope- he’s not even a Catholic- No, I’ll go further, he’s not even a Christian. He is the leader of the religious arm of the new world order. He has invited Muslims into the Vatican City- my God! He (and all of us) will pay a terrible price for that. He is a scumbag and until the modernists in the Vatican are overthrown and Vatican 2 is thrown out and the true faith is restored there can be no hope.
EYESOPEN says
I agree with you 100% Tradiguy. This nonsense is why I have not returned to the Catholic Church. This, and the U.S. Conference of Communist Bishops reaping millions of our taxpayer dollars every year by bringing the (mostly muzlim) hordes from the third world into the communities of the United States.
https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2017/01/11/and-we-almost-missed-it-us-conference-of-catholic-bishops-celebrates-its-national-migration-week/
linnte says
I agree also. There is absolutely no other reason for Francis’s acquiescence to Islam. It stuns me.
joseph wazzan says
whatever the pope or anyone else for that matter does , the will of God shall prevail.
somehistory says
And that is what the *good news* is all about! All good things through Christ will come true for us.
Pong says
15 years ago I was vilified on this blog for predicting todays events. I pointed out that decency and the cc are not compatible.
Many catholics are involved in mental gymnastics trying to convince other people that they are good catholics and anti-jihad. Their arguments are exactly the same as the arguments of some moslems. They also trying to convince the world that islam and democracy can coexist, that it is possible to be a devoted moslem and not to be an anti-semite, that jihad is a spiritual struggle and so on.
We do rightly insist that a decent thing is to leave islam and we praise moslems who did that. Yet, being a member of an organization, which actively supports jihad and closed eyes on atrocities commited by moslems against christians, is for some twisted reason is acceptable. There were nazzis, who didn’t aggree with Hitlen on every point, but supported nazzism. They were still our enemies. Today, disagreeing with the pope and while supporting catholic church, puts those people into the same category. The argument that popes come and go is a faulty one. Next pope can be even worse.
I repeat what I said 15 years ago: being a decent person and a catholic is impossible.
gravenimage says
Pong wrote:
15 years ago I was vilified on this blog for predicting todays events.
…………………………
Pong, Jihad Watch was not around fifteen years ago.
More:
I pointed out that decency and the cc are not compatible.
Many catholics are involved in mental gymnastics trying to convince other people that they are good catholics and anti-jihad. Their arguments are exactly the same as the arguments of some moslems.
…………………………
Pong, Catholics–including pontiffs–stood as a bulwark against the spread of Islam for hundreds of years. The problem is not Catholicism per se, but the current pope and the growing phenomenon of appeasing Islam, which we see in many Christian denominations–ans with many Jews and secularists, as well. This is not just a Catholic thing, although Pope Francis is particularly egregious.
But remember, the last pontiff was solidly anti-Jihad.
More:
I repeat what I said 15 years ago: being a decent person and a catholic is impossible.
…………………………
Robert Spencer himself is a devout Catholic. Do you think that he is not a decent person?
Achmed says
Another playing of the “Robert Spencer Card” to justify the church of Rome.
TOO funny.
gravenimage says
Achmed, do you also believe that Robert Spencer is incapable of being a decent person because he is Catholic?
Robert Spencer is hardly uncritical of the Vatican when it is warranted–note the story, above–nor is he uncritical of individual Catholics, including clerics. A quick glance through the Jihad Watch archives proves this.
I am not Catholic myself–I just think it is ridiculous to claim that Catholicism is intrinsically pro-Islam, which could not be more ahistorical.
Achmed says
Sorry, gravenimage, but playing the “Robert Spencer Card” is the specious of an argument. I, not knowing Mr. Spender personally, cannot truly answer that question. I do believe that Pong’s statement of it being impossible to be a Roman Catholic and a decent person, is a stretch too far.
The “Robert Spencer Card”, in your reply, has valid play. However, I have seen that card played, on this forum, FAR (special emphasis added) too often, every time the church of Rome is called to task.
The pope is the head of the church of Rome. Isn’t he supposedly believed to be the vicar of Christ by Roman Catholics? That church’s hierarchy is, seemingly, 100% behind his view of mohammedanism. Was the pope not elected by that church’s cardinals?
Gimme a break … Hey, guys .. I know a nice Roman Catholic … I really do. Judas.
gravenimage says
Achmed, you may say you do not know Robert Spencer, but you post here often enough that you *do* know Jihad Watch.
Ergo, you cannot really believe that a devout Christian is incapable of criticizing the pope, or that he cannot oppose the savagery of Islam.
I could make that point without citing the example of Mr. Spencer, of course, but his very stance on things makes the argument crystal clear.
Pong says
Gravenimage,
I remember posting to JW and having my first heat attack after I finished the post. That is why I remember it was 15 years ago.
I never criticized catholicism, only politics of Vatican.
I try to explain my analysis of Vatican’s appeasement of islam.
The most important question is why Vatican is doing that?
I don’t think it is ideology. It is practicality. It was practical for cc to resist islam for centuries. It is not practical any more. CC understand that it is likely for most of Europe to become islamic in the not so distant future. Vatican scores points with islamic world, insuring survival of the church.
Another question is to survive in Europe, cc doesn’t need to go as far in participating in jihad as they do. To answer this question, one should ask, if cc will be better or worse off under islam. I think that most of the cc leaders think that the church will be better off under islam and I aggree with them.
Today Europe is secular. Church attendance is very low. Many churches became mosques. Islam doesn’t tolerate atheism. There will be no atheists under sharia. Churches will be full again. CC will have much more power under islam then it has now.
I never though that cc involved in jihad for an ideological reason. The doctrines are so different, it is impossible for the church to aggree on almost anything with islam without destroying itself. And the church leaders are neither suicidal nor stupid. They are evil, but they are practical.
Today to be a member of the church is to be part of jihad. This appeasement didn’t start with the present pope. Pope J-P II was already deeply involved into it. Now it is much more obvious that Europe will become islamic and next pope will likely to be worse then the present one.
Victory for jihad regarding israel will be a huge boost for jihad around the world. Every catholic will have some small part in that victory.
Kay says
This is as ridiculous as the claim that all Christians are white nationalists.
The Church’s real power exists because Jesus is alive and by the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are many voices against the church, most of them I had thought were Leftist. It looks like yours is one more.
gravenimage says
Pong wrote:
Gravenimage,
I remember posting to JW and having my first heat attack after I finished the post. That is why I remember it was 15 years ago.
……………………….
I’m very sorry to hear that you had a heart attack, Pong–I hope you are fully recovered. But Jihad Watch was not around 15 years ago–it dates to 2003.
More:
I never criticized catholicism, only politics of Vatican.
I try to explain my analysis of Vatican’s appeasement of islam.
The most important question is why Vatican is doing that?
I don’t think it is ideology. It is practicality. It was practical for cc to resist islam for centuries. It is not practical any more. CC understand that it is likely for most of Europe to become islamic in the not so distant future. Vatican scores points with islamic world, insuring survival of the church.
……………………….
With all respect, this is silly. The church hasn’t survived very well anywhere under Islam, appeasement and dhimmitude notwithstanding.
More:
Another question is to survive in Europe, cc doesn’t need to go as far in participating in jihad as they do. To answer this question, one should ask, if cc will be better or worse off under islam. I think that most of the cc leaders think that the church will be better off under islam and I aggree with them.
……………………….
Why would *any* Catholic believe that the Catholic Church would be “better off” under Islam than in the free West? Why would oppression and murder be better than freedom?
You say you “agree” that Catholics are “better off” under Islam–what does that mean?
“What ISIS Did To These 4 Nuns Will Make You Sick”
http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/muslim-terroristst-catholic-nuns/
How were these poor nuns “better off” under Islam? Do you believe they would have faced the same fate–or worse–at the Vatican?
More:
Today Europe is secular. Church attendance is very low. Many churches became mosques. Islam doesn’t tolerate atheism. There will be no atheists under sharia. Churches will be full again. CC will have much more power under islam then it has now.
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The idea that Islam has *ever* benefited Christianity is, with all respect, just ahistorical claptrap.
More:
I never though that cc involved in jihad for an ideological reason. The doctrines are so different, it is impossible for the church to aggree on almost anything with islam without destroying itself. And the church leaders are neither suicidal nor stupid. They are evil, but they are practical.
Today to be a member of the church is to be part of jihad. This appeasement didn’t start with the present pope. Pope J-P II was already deeply involved into it. Now it is much more obvious that Europe will become islamic and next pope will likely to be worse then the present one.
Victory for jihad regarding israel will be a huge boost for jihad around the world. Every catholic will have some small part in that victory.
……………………….
Including that notorious supporter of Jihad, Robert Spencer…sarc/off
no_one says
I don’t understand the people who still think RCC is the Church. It is not. The gates of hell will not prevail over the real church.
Pong says
gravenimage,
2003? I thoght it was 2002. May be you are right.
“With all respect, this is silly. The church hasn’t survived very well anywhere under Islam, appeasement and dhimmitude notwithstanding.”
The time has changed. I specifically emphasized this in my post. 100 years ago there were very few secular countries and religious feelings among the people were much stronger then today.
“The idea that Islam has *ever* benefited Christianity is, with all respect, just ahistorical claptrap.”
I am talking about future. You refuse to address it, referring to the past. Do you really think that Vatican is naive, suicidal or stupid ? Do you think that Vatican does it without seeing some benefits from taking this position on islam ? Can you offer any other explanation different from mine ?
You quote me extensively, but don’t address any important point. To call someone’s analysis a “claptrap” hardly makes any point, especially when addressed to a strawman. Saying that “with all respect” makes it even worse and you know it.
As for Robert, I don’t know. If I knew, I would have asked him, when we met, but Robert is in more difficult position then I am when it comes to expressing ones view. I am not sure he is such a devoted catholic as some people seems to think.
gravenimage says
Pong, thanks for your reply. You wrote:
“With all respect, this is silly. The church hasn’t survived very well anywhere under Islam, appeasement and dhimmitude notwithstanding.”
The time has changed. I specifically emphasized this in my post. 100 years ago there were very few secular countries and religious feelings among the people were much stronger then today.
………………………………..
Things may have changed in the West–yes, it is more secular than it was a hundred years ago–but things *have not* changed in the Muslim world. Right now, Christians are being driven out, kidnapped and forcibly converted, and slaughtered outright in much of Dar-al-Islam.
Christians are just a small surviving remnant in places like Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, and Syria now, and may well disappear there within our lifetimes.
That oppression and murder is *not* “better” than it is in peaceful secular nations, where Christians may worship openly and without fear.
More:
“The idea that Islam has *ever* benefited Christianity is, with all respect, just ahistorical claptrap.”
I am talking about future. You refuse to address it, referring to the past.
………………………………..
With all respect–and I do respect your contributions here, I was not speaking facetiously–I do not believe we have any reason to believe that Islam is going to change its goal of oppressing and eventually eradicating Christianity–do you have any information that you believe points to this changing?
More:
Do you really think that Vatican is naive, suicidal or stupid ? Do you think that Vatican does it without seeing some benefits from taking this position on islam ? Can you offer any other explanation different from mine ?
………………………………..
As I have said many times, I think the Vatican is enmired in the same “political correctness” and willful denial over the threat of Islam that is warping much of the rest of the West, religious *and* secular.
More:
You quote me extensively, but don’t address any important point. To call someone’s analysis a “claptrap” hardly makes any point, especially when addressed to a strawman. Saying that “with all respect” makes it even worse and you know it.
………………………………..
Pong, if there is a particular point you feel I have not addressed, please let me know it, and I will do my best to speak to it.
More:
As for Robert, I don’t know. If I knew, I would have asked him, when we met, but Robert is in more difficult position then I am when it comes to expressing ones view. I am not sure he is such a devoted catholic as some people seems to think.
………………………………..
Well, you can certainly believe that criticizing papal policy makes him a bad Catholic if you like–I think he might disagree. Catholicism does not mark every view of every pontiff to be infallible, however.
gravenimage says
Vatican opens Palestinian embassy ahead of critical summit in Paris
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Just appalling.
Champ says
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.” — Matthew 7:15
This verse certainly fits the pope.
EYESOPEN says
Yep. Right you are Champ.
Achmed says
Why is anyone surprised? It’s simply another example of the Roman Catholic Church bein’ the Roman Catholic Church.
anon says
Why Protestants keep shilling their heresy is beyond me. They know nothing about Catholicism and would rather see Christianity dead.
Angemon says
Pretty much, yeah.
ploome says
Why does Israel allow a Vatican embassy and USA consulate (serving only arabs) in Jerusalem?
gravenimage says
Ploome, the US Consulate in Jerusalem does not ‘serve only Arabs’. The main issue with this is that the US *Embassy* should be in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, rather than in Tel Aviv–and may be moved there under Trump.
But yes–if Israel were to allow a Vatican Embassy serving “Palestine”, it would be deeply foolish.
This article, though, is talking about the Vatican allowing the fictive “Palestinian State” to set up an embassy in Vatican City.
somehistory says
g,
I think this is the part that is being questioned:
” whilst the Vatican has an “embassy to Palestine” located in East Jerusalem”
gravenimage says
somehistory, you are quite right–I had missed that part. Thanks for pointing this out. My apologies, ploome, regarding the Vatican embassy.
Israel was foolish to allow this idiocy.
mortimer says
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PALESTINIAN AND A JORDANIAN?
-Jordan is a 20th-century British invention, dreamed up in the 1920s, for the peoples living in what Britain illegally hived off from the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine in 1923. In 1923 the British arbitrarily violated the Mandate, morally and legally, by creating the “Emirate of Jordan” in Eastern Palestine. The British announced that this was a “temporary” measure, which they quietly and quickly made “permanent.” Jews were no longer allowed to live there. Once the British established the Mandate, and Jewish immigration began to create a mini-industrial revolution, both Western and Eastern Palestine attracted waves of Muslim Arab immigrants from Egypt and Syria. These new immigrants found it convenient to make common cause with the non-Bedouin residents of Jordan and much later, specifically after 1967, called themselves and their children Palestinians. President Roosevelt pointed out in 1939 that “Arab immigration into Palestine since 1921 has vastly exceeded the total Jewish immigration during this whole period.” Until 1946, its British administrators called TransJordan — Eastern Palestine.
-Arab Opinions about the Demographic Unity of ‘Palestine’ and Jordan
”Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country.” – King Abdullah, at the Meeting of the Arab League, Cairo, 12 April, 1948
-“We are the Government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.” – Prime Minister of Jordan, 23 August, 1959
-“Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.” – Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February, 1970
-“There is no family on the East Bank of the [Jordan] River that does not have relatives on the West Bank … no family in the west that does not have branches in the east.” – King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February, 1972
-“We consider it necessary to clarify to one and all, in the Arab world and outside, that the Palestinian people with its nobility and conscience is to be found here on the East Bank [of the Jordan River], the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Its overwhelming majority is here [on the East Bank] and nowhere else.” – King Hussein, quoted in An-Nahar, Beirut, 24 August, 1972
-“The Palestinians here constitute not less than one half of the members of the armed forces. They and their brothers, the sons of Transjordan, constitute the members of one family who are equal in everything, in rights and duties.” – King Hussein, on Amman Radio, 3 February, 1973 (quoted by BBC Monitoring Service)
-“The new Jordan, which emerged in 1949, was the creation of the Palestinians of the West Bank and their brothers in the East. While Israel was the negation of the Palestinian right of self-determination, unified Jordan was the expression of it.” – Sharif Al-Hamid Sharaf, Representative of Jordan at the UN Security Council, 11 June, 1973
-“[Former Tunisian] President Bourguiba considers Jordan an artificial creation presented by Great Britain to King Abdullah. But he accepts Palestine and the Palestinians as an existing and primary fact since the days of the Pharaohs. Israel, too, he considers as a primary entity. However, Arab history makes no distinction between Jordanians, Syrians and Palestinians. Most of them hail from the same Arab race, which arrived in the region with the Arab Moslem conquest.” – Editorial Comment in the Jordanian Armed Forces’ weekly Al-Aqsa, Amman, 11 July, 1973
-“The Palestinians and the Jordanians have created on this soil since 1948 one family — all of whose children have equal rights and obligations.” – King Hussein, addressing an American delegation, 19 February, 1975
– “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”- PLO representative Zouhair Muhsen in 1977, speaking to a Dutch newspaper
“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity. … The existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.” –Zouhair Muhsen, PLO rep
“There is, in fact, almost nothing un-Palestinian about Jordan except for the royal family. Despite decades of official imposition of a Bedouin image on the country, and even Bedouin accents on state television, the Palestinian identity is still the most dominant … to the point where the Jordanian capital, Amman, is the largest and most populated Palestinian city anywhere. Palestinians view it as a symbol of their economic success and ability to excel. Moreover, empowering a Palestinian statehood for Jordan has a well-founded and legally accepted grounding: The minute the minimum level of democracy is applied to Jordan, the Palestinian majority would, by right, take over the political momentum.” – Mudar Zahran, Palestinian-Jordanian
”Palestine and Jordan were both under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine.” – King Hussein, in his memoirs
“The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.” – Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan in 1980.
”Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine but, rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations, both day and night. Though we are all Arabs and our point of departure is that we are all members of the same people, the Palestinian-Jordanian nation is one and unique, and different from those of the other Arab states.” – Marwan al Hamoud, member of the Jordanian National Consultative Council and former Minister of Agriculture, quoted by Al-Rai, Amman, 24 September, 1980
“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.” – King Hussein of Jordan in 1981.
Dr. Martin Sherman, founder and executive director of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, recently wrote that Article 1 of the Palestinian National Covenant proclaims: “The Palestinian Arab people are…part of the Arab nation.” Article 12 baldly admits that a separate Palestinian identity is a ruse to further wider Arab interests. Thus, at an Arab League summit in 1987, convened in Amman, King Hussein conceded that Palestinian identity was merely a response to Jewish national claims, not driven by any authentic endogenic sentiment of uniqueness, stating, “The appearance of the Palestinian national personality comes as an answer to Israel’s claim that Palestine is Jewish.” –King Hussein of Jordan in 1987
Mark Swan says
Thanks for posting this mortimer.
gravenimage says
Good post, Mortimer–so many forget that there already *is* a “Palestinian state”, and that is Jordan.
linnte says
Exactly, so what prevents them from going to Jordan? Hatred, pure and simple. To quote my favorite JW poster, “God I hate Islam”! ?
gravenimage says
🙂
Mark A says
I’m Catholic and I have to say I agree with Robert Spencer on this.
I think this is a very misguided move by the Vatican.
Pong says
You mist one word in your last sentence – “again”.
f c king says
The pope should tell the new muslim embassy staff that they must stop the killing of non muslims, stop all the murder in general, and above all, help put an end to the world jihad. He should then tell them he will call for a crusade in a couple of months, as was done during the dark-ages.
If the pope doesn’t do something like this, he should be fired, and let the Catholics find someone that will help protect them from these dark-ages tribesmen that think they are destined to rule the world.
FYI says
Fradulent Francis should offer to lovingly wash all their feet as a show of his great love for their religion.
Indeed,as a sign of friendship ,a moslem-vatican pact should involve a celebratory foot washing ceremony and while francis is down there doing that…. he might like to consider wiping their asses as well….
Sorry,I don’t mean to be crude really,but I grew up in the Catholic Church and I regard Phoney Joe Bergoglio and his cronies as being WORSE than judas iscariot:he’s a betrayer of Christianity
a lying heretic,a protector of pedophile clergy and a desecrator of the Catholic belief system.
In fact,concerned Catholics in the USA wrote to him to ask him to resign because of his heresies but
of course he ignored them (and promoted his buddies as cardinals instead).
In fact as far as I’m concerned moslems can keep the Vatican.Since islam likes to use lies to promote
its creed and since the Vatican is equally dishonest…they deserve each other.
Manual Paleologos says
So The Pope endorses genocide of the Jews. They called Pius XII “The Nazi Pope.” It appears that the real Nazi Pope is Frank. Vile.
Time to put the Vatican City on the nuclear targets list. One B-61 ought to do it.
billybob says
Doesn’t matter how much the Pope sucks up to the Muslims, these will continue to hate Christians just as much as ever. Ibrahim Itace Muhammad will continue to call them “filthy pagan mithraist Christians”.
gravenimage says
True, billybob–in fact, this dhimmitude on the part of the pope will just embolden Muslims to target Christians *and* Jews, since they know they can do so with impunity.
Carolyne says
The professor had better “Study” Christians in the Middle East quickly because at the rate they are being killed, there will be no one left to study.
In order to achieve one’s goal of peace, both parties must desire that result. Clearly the Palestinians do not. The Pope is wasting his time and giving more time to evil. One could argue that this pope is himself evil but that is for Roman Catholics to determine, of which I am not one. In fact, I do not believe in popes at all and see no point in their existence and luxurious living. At least they stopped the ridiculous custom of carrying them around in a chair. Maybe they should carry them around in a Cadillac.
gravenimage says
Very true, Carolyne.
Jon says
So much anti-catholic bigotry and hatred. Pope Francis is imitating Christ as he sees it. He has the guarantee that “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it”. He sees that he is in a game he can’t lose. I believe he sees that he is literally imitating the Love of Christ and “kissing the leper” to save our culture. He has turned the other cheek (again), forgiven, and wants to now move toward peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. I believe he truly believes that the example we set as Christians will cause the Muslims to convert to Christianity. As Saint Francis stated in the early 1200’s, “Lets go preach the Gospel and if needed we will use words”. We all must remember that no matter what the Pope says about world events (or a Cardinal or even a misguided humble priest) is his personal opinion and does not change what the Catholic Church teaches about our faith. The Pope’s job throughout the ages is and has always been to safeguard the Gospel and the infallible teaching of Christ and his Church. In over 2000 years no Pope has ever declared something that was not truth as truth and mandatory for all the faithful to believe. WE have had very few bad Popes, and some were magnificent at sinning, but none has changed the Word of God. Thank God for the Church and it’s service or we would not be here as the world would have been a different place. Without the Church, we would not have a Bible for all to read. Men have failed to live up to the Word of God and that will never change. We will be disappointed and heartbroken and suffer from our failure, but we will keep striving toward a goal as our salvation does not alone rest in what we accomplish, but in how we confront the obstacles in our lives.
It does not matter to Pope Francis that Sura 19 in the Koran says Mary was “ashamed” to be pregnant with Jesus and that Sura 19 Totally Denies that Jesus is the God. It does not matter that it is impossible to separate the practice of Islam and the Politics of Islam as they are one in the same under Sharia Law. That the Muslim believes and is taught that “Islam means peace” and that peace will only happen when the entire world is Islamic and under Sharia Law. It does not matter that for over 1200 years that Islam has blessed those that kill the infidels (non-muslims) and take their property, wives, and daughters. We need to forget that during the invasion of the Muslims into Europe that they took over 1 million slaves back with them. Do I need to go on?
Pope Francis has the faith that if he Loves enough like Christ he can change the world. What he forgot is that yes Christ did Love the world, but that it was an “Authentic Love”. He did not ignore sin around him and had no problem condemning people to hell as they would not change their ways and Repent. Love takes courage. The courage he is lacking is to preach that some of the “fundamental Islamic teachings are Evil”and in direct contradiction to Judeo-Christian values and democracy. None of us should accept any of this evil and it must be first called out, identified, condemned, and then eradicated. To do other is repeat the same mistakes that our ancestors did and most of our current world leaders are involved in. They have the right to believe that Christ is not the Messiah, and very few of us here would deny them that right. I do not need to list here what they do not have a right to believe and practice as it is well known. We need Saintly leaders who have the courage to speak the Truth and True Men (both males and females) that have the courage to live and defend the Truth.
billybob says
Christ loved the sinner, but did not deny his sins. He loved the sinner with eyes wide open, and did not pretend there were no sins. He forgave instead.
The Pope, on the other hand, has said that Islam is a religion of peace, among other false claims. He has also turned a blind eye to the persecution of Christians in Muslims lands. He does not forgive, because he does not see the sins. He blindly makes peace instead. The Pope is no Jesus. He is a fool. If he was like Jesus, he would have my respect. The Pope does not have my respect.
gravenimage says
Exactly, billybob. Important points.
Carolyne says
It appears that Islam is not the only so-called religion which brainwashes.
Carolyne says
By the way, Jon, the correct expression is “One AND the same,” not “One IN the same. Thought you’d like to know that since you know everything else.