In December 2015, a small group of Muslims met in Washington, DC to discuss the reform of Islam. With media fanfare, they named themselves the Muslim Reform Movement (MRM), issued a Declaration for Muslim Reform, and became the new face of “Muslim reformers.”
There was just one fundamental problem: the MRM never had support from the larger Muslim community.
Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, one of the MRM founders, admitted this on January 30, 2017, when he was interviewed in an article in The Federalist about the MRM’s recent one year anniversary: A Muslim Reformer Speaks Out About His Battle Against Islamism And PC. Jasser was asked about how many mosques the MRM had initially approached for support in 2015 and the nature of the responses from those mosques. Jasser’s answer was eye-opening:
We spent significant resources on this outreach over a period of ten months. We reached out through snail mail, e-mail, and telephone to over 3,000 mosques and over 500 known public American Muslims. We received only 40-plus rather dismissive responses from our outreach, and sadly less than ten of them were positive. In fact, one mosque in South Carolina left us a vicious voice mail threatening our staff if we contacted them again.
So the MRM made over 3,500 contacts within the Muslim community, but received only a little over 40 responses, of which less than ten were positive. So to work with these numbers, let’s say the MRM made 3,500 contacts and received nine positive responses. That means that only .0026 (a touch over one-quarter of one percent) of the Muslim organizations and Muslim individuals the MRM contacted responded in a positive manner. And the MRM had even received a “vicious voicemail” from a mosque as a result of these initial contacts.
The irrelevance of the MRM was further revealed when Jasser was asked about the MRM’s accomplishments during the first year of its existence. Jasser stated:
Our greatest accomplishment to date is our declaration.
The MRM’s declaration is a two page document created at their first meeting, posted on the door of a nearby mosque (and quickly removed), and available on the websites of various Muslim “reform” organizations. As I noted in my first article about the MRM, this declaration is “a document that rejected Muhammad’s Islam in favor of Western, Judeo-Christian values,” and in terms of Islamic doctrine, it is rife with blasphemy.
Jasser also admitted that after a year of the MRM’s existence,
we are disappointed in the relative silence from most Muslim leaders…
Jasser blamed a lack of money for the poor support from the Muslim community:
I can guess why we had shortcomings in outreach. If we had more funding, we could study this more scientifically…No one knows truly how that majority of Muslims feels about Islamist ideologies. National security is in desperate need of helping us study that. …We have not been able to effectively reach out to the majority of Muslims because of resources and the absence of effective platforms.
So for the sake of “national security,” the MRM needs to study the attitudes of Muslims in order to find out why the MRM has been generally rejected by those Muslims. And in order for the MRM to complete this study, they need money. The money has to, by default, come from non-Muslims.
But I would like to save the MRM time and non-Muslims money. Instead of a new study on why the MRM has virtually no Muslim support, I will provide the answer: in terms of Islamic doctrine, the MRM declaration is blasphemous, and the MRM should not be surprised that over 99% of the larger Muslim community does not want to join in with that blasphemy.
It is only attention from the non-Muslim world that will enable the Muslim Reform Movement to remain on life-support, visible but irrelevant.
Dr. Stephen M. Kirby is the author of four books about Islam. His latest book is Islam’s Militant Prophet: Muhammad and Forced Conversions to Islam.
Walter Sieruk says
On the topic of a reformation within Islam, a very different yet possible valid and true view on this had been explain by the Christian, Nabeel Qureshi ,who was in the past was a Muslim .He wrote in his book which is entitled ANSWERING JIHAD wrote about the suggestion “that Islam needs a reformation .What they may not realize is that radical Islam is the Islamic reformation. This might sound shocking, but consider: Just as the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to raze centuries of Catholic tradition and return to the canonical text, so radical Islam is an attempt to raze centuries of traditions of various schools of Islamic thought and return to the canonical text of the Quran and Muhammad’s life. This desire to return to the original form of Islam can be seen not only in the words of Sayyid Qutb, but also in his method. He focused almost entirely on references to the Quran. it is true also of the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS today, whose publications and proclamations are punctuated by references to the Quran and hadith literature. Radical Muslim organizations are explicit in their aim to reform Islam.” page 75. Further on pages 79,80 the author makes his case clear by writing that “Radical Islam is the Islamic reformation . The endeavor to modernize Islam and make it relevant to the twenty -first century is called progressive Islam. Progressive Muslim thought leaders, though few in number and limited in influence are present and are working to recreate Islam’s religious framework from within. Indeed, that is what it would take for Islam to become devoted to peace – not reformation but reimagination. “
C T says
The hadith make peaceful Islam impossible.
A true reformation would jettison them as inauthentic and hold only to the Quran, which for all its problematic content, does dictate that there be freedom of religion.
gravenimage says
C T, that is an abrogated verse. The Qur’an itself is hideously violent, as is the Sira–the life of the “Prophet”. Jettisoning the Hadith would not help much.
Wellington says
Seconded, gravenimage. The Koran alone is more than reason enough to reject Islam as barbaric, confused, contradictory, deceptive (e.g., the “no compulsion in religion” crap) and downright silly (e.g., the talking baby Jesus in Sura 19), not to mention a mind-numbing repetitiveness, this particular “feature” of the Koran helping to explain in part why Islam is a recipe for the stultification of the mind.
Muhammad's Ghost says
If the Hadith is thrown out, there is no longer any context for the order of Quranic ayat. Without knowing this order abrogation disappears. There are still many many abhorrent and violent verses in the Quran, but stamping all the Hadith as a centuries-long game of whispers (which is what they are) is at least a step in the right direction.
Mark Swan says
A rational Islam would no longer be Islam. If it is examined by looking for the good in it, we would be confirming the old adage, if you have to look that close, there may not be anything to see.
AleX says
islam cannot be reformed. One should cut out 30℅ of the kkkoran, 40℅ of sira and 40℅ of the ahadith [the hate speech part]. Second, the so-called reformers should then denounce mad dog mohomot for his vile, rabid low life, cowardly and paedophiliac conduct.
Angus66 says
The Quran is supposedly the direct word of Allah and therefore can NEVER be reformed without starting over from scratch.
Muslims have had 1400 years to do this but islam is just as violent, discriminatory & hateful as ever.
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
Anything made by man can be changed by man. It is difficult to reform Islam to be compatible with Western values, but it is not impossible.
Dont take my word for it, listen to one of the leading experts on Islam, Bat Ye`or, in an interview from 2005:
“Question: Daniel Pipes’ slogan is “Fundamentalist Islam is the enemy; moderate Islam is the solution.” But do you think there is hope for change?
Answer: I know moderate and brilliant Muslims, but I do not know of a school of thought, represented by teaching and publications, followed by millions of Muslims, called “moderate Islam.”
Everyone hopes for a change, including Muslims. I never say “never.”
But I think that changes will emerge if we start discussing these issues instead of hiding them under the carpet, and if we take measures to protect ourselves and become aware of language manipulation, like, for instance, pretending that jihad means peace and justice.
We should also support secular and modernist Muslims who are also targeted and hope desperately for our help and encouragement.”
(Time of jihad, Interview of Bat Ye’or by William F. Katz, Dallas Morning, June 18, 2005).
jayell says
How can you denounce the founder of the ‘religion” so completely and still have your ‘religion’? Surely that’s a case of ‘have your cake and throw it in the garbage’?
faraway says
Jayell,promoters of reform do not necessarily believe that it’s possible but the ensuing discussions will force islamic scripture into the open.This will cause many believers to question their faith.
Mark Swan says
Just because someone does not display openly what they
have to base their beliefs on…does not mean they will not, at the
very least be empathetic with others who act on it.
These moderate Muslims seem to exist, so We observe this,
do We feel anyone who can read and has read the Quran
and is ok with it, can be something other than Muslim.
Do We expect anyone who is not a Muslim, but has read the
Quran, to understand, how someone who knows what is in the
Quran, can keep Saying they are Muslim.
In this age of Islam spreading aggressively, are we going to hope
moderate Muslims, can water down the very essence of Islam which
is about control plane and simple…are we to think the big players
in this are naive and vulnerable, or maybe ok with this—what.
They have been building-up to this time for many decades…they can
work any system better than its originators, they are very effective.
This is a supremacist Ideology…do We expect them to accept equality.
All their ingenuous determined efforts are very real and very wide-spread.
Do We feel these Muslim folks just need a clear view of
the good life, and when they realize how wonderful a good life
Is, these beliefs, based on the Quran will just go away.
The rest of this world cannot be on hold…how long do We have to give Them to make this reformation, after many centuries of the same belief.
Should the words good and Muslim be used together…read the Quran.
Do these exist…if so, let them cast off this hate group membership.
Let them join the free World and help…that is what they could do.
Many beliefs are part of humanity…yet humanity can not accept the Quran.
Whom then do we liken the Muslim Brotherhood to be.
Many have considered them Moderate Muslims.
They are not.
Recall, from the Muslim Brotherhood Explanatory Memorandum:
“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”
CONTROL
TruthWFree says
I agree. I saw a debate between Daniel Pipes and Wafa Sultan on this topic. Pipes tried to argue the reformation side. Wafa completely tore him up. Mabe Pipes did not believe in his position either? Why reform a religion that is false and in my opinion Satanically revealed?
TheBuffster says
CT, if you cut out the ahadith, you also cut out all the “how to” parts of Islam, including how to perform the Five Pillars. The Koran itself does not have a context. It tells you that later verses in time that contradict earlier ones are to cancel out the earlier ones. And you keep being told to follow Mohammad’s example, but there is no way to follow that example without the Sunna. It also says that a Muslim must follow *everything* in the Koran, or else be a “hypocrite” who should be killed.
In regard to the chronological (and crucial) order of the Koran, the chapters have been put together from the longest to the shortest, so you *have* to refer to the Sunna to find out what has been abrogated.
So to be a Koran-only Muslim in order to be a peaceful Muslim is to do the very thing that the Koran forbids: to ignore the bits of the Koran that don’t align with your own personal values, to ignore the order in which the Koran was revealed and the verse of abrogation, to ignore the example of Mohammad and the command to do jihad.
If Muslims *do* pay attention to Mohammad’s story, it becomes clear that when Mohammad and his followers were in a weak position, they were to spread Islam by preaching, but when they were in a strong position they were *not* to let the opportunity to slip by – they were to do jihad against unbelievers by first inviting those unbelievers to Islam. If the invitation was rejected, if the unbelievers in question were “People of the book”, they could escape war and execution of enslavement by paying the jizya tax and allowing themselves to be subjugated under the Muslims’ rules, feeling themselves humiliated. If the unbelievers rejected that alternative, war was inevitable.
But even if one abides only by the Koran, one message is clear throughout – reasoning, questioning, critical thinking is FORBIDDEN. Over and over again people are condemned for their questions and doubts and are only ever answered by either transparent (and embarrassing) logical fallacies or by threats of hell. Honest, questioning minds were not welcome in Mohammad’s presence. That is profoundly clear when reading the Koran. And people who find this state of affairs laughable, people who reject Mohammad’s message, will go to hell and endure having their skin peeled off and grown back and peeled off over and over again, and will drink scalding water and other such horrors, and the people in Paradise will be able to look into hell and watch as these people who failed to accept the Prophet and the Koran be tortured. And they will mock and jeer at these poor mistaken souls as the unbelievers used to mock and jeer and roll their eyes at the Muslims.
So spiritual. Yes, that’s a book that a moral person should be attracted to and fall in love with as the guide to their spiritual lives. Not.
I believe that the ex-Muslims who still call themselves Muslims and aim to reform Islam are on a fool’s mission. I do believe they’re dedicated to the “Western” values they claim to uphold. But I don’t see how they can believe that there’s enough in Islam to be worth salvaging. I don’t see how one can base a rational Islam on the texts as they actually are. The texts do not support that.
I think they are trying to draw Muslims away from the religion while creating a new religion that they still call “Islam”. But it’s not based on the actual texts, so why not just show what Islam is and urge Muslims to leave for something more intelligent and moral?
Angus66 says
The only true way to “reform” islam is to throw it all away and start from scratch.
Of course what results won’t be islam…
mousey says
buffster,
apparently,for many many years after mo, ijtihad, reasoning, was allowed.
Also, what i’ve found during reading milestones is that it voices a profoundly pure religious sentiment and plan… It’s just mixed in with something else that’s very bad. Somehow the diamond part of islam, and it is there, has to be extracted from the hate, and then somehow head muslims, ones that actually are pursuing a spiritual life, have to supercede, get a higher vision, transcend, and lead muslims into a spiritual awakening.
MTMLA says
I agree totally. How can a sane person adhere to a so called religion which started by a mad man bent on violence, rape, slavery, thievery, pedophilia, and murder ? It’s like having a rotten steak on your plate and trying to figure out a way to make it edible. It’s impossible, a rotten piece of meat will never be edible. It’s rotten to the core. The only solution is to throw it away. The same with Islam.
It drives me crazy to see debates with muslim representatives on Fox News( Hannity) lying about Islam, but they are not rebuked with passages of the Koran which calls for violent jihad. I don’t know if Hannity is being PC , or afraid to say the truth or he doesn’t know enough about Islam. He got better now about criticizing Islam. Before he used to say that the muslim terrorists had hijacked the religion of peace. Yesterday (2/24) he was interviewing a large group of people about Islam, among them there was Brigitte Gabriel and others.Some voiced the truth about the violence in Islam, others westerners were totally defenders of Islam, and of course the muslims lied about the real teachings of this putrid ideology. I think Hannity should read passages of the Koran to prove his point, but he never does… maybe he is afraid of retaliation from members of the religion of “pieces”. In the past I was almost giving up on him with this talking of hijacking the “religion of peace”. He got better, but I heard him saying the same yesterday, like the members of ISIS hijacked islam. I have to give him credit, though, he mentions SOME of the violence in islam, but no enough. He didn’t confront the Iranian iman about the practice of hanging gays and killing apostates.
I think Pres. Trump should fine tune his suspension of some muslims to the following: If you believe in Sharia, which is incompatible with our western values, you are not allowed in this country”. I’d like to see how the muslims and the apologists would react…
Daniel Triplett says
@MTMLA
“I think Pres. Trump should fine tune his suspension of some muslims to the following: If you believe in Sharia, which is incompatible with our western values, you are not allowed in this country”. I’d like to see how the muslims and the apologists would react…”
They’d lie, and be allowed through the gate.
berserker says
Qutb is the Islamic Elliot Rodger. American women ignored him; so he took out his resentment on the West. As always most human actions are tied to sex and death. Martin Amis, if I recall, wrote about Qutb and his resentment at being ignored.
Gray says
It seems to me that, if you are going to ‘reform’ Islam, you must remove all reference to the mass murdering, child molesting, slave owning, husband killing/wife raping/ children-enslaving/ duplicitous. Jew-hating Mohammed. And without Mohammed, what is left of Islam?
DJ says
A real religion of peace?
John Krupa says
Gray, I, and many others are of the same opinion: in view of all these “endorsed-advocated barbaric practices” how is it possible, other than in some perverse parallel universe, that fundamental mohammedanism is even considered to be a religion?
Specifically, so what … if mohammedans are instructed to perform charitable acts? Such is true of the mafia, or, other any sundry list of criminals and/or criminal organizations. E.g., see Pablo Escobar, who, routinely lavished his neighborhoods and thousands of people with the construction of public facilities, major feasts, festivals, etc. In exchange for these charities, the receivers of same only needed to “sell their souls”. [No free lunches … anywhere.]
Such charity does NOT make it a religion; rather, it makes it was it is: a cult; in fact a death cult.
Fundamental mohammedanism, as described in its perverted texts, is nothing more than a political code — cult instructions — for tyrants, dictators, bullies and self-centered megalomaniacal juvenile delinquents … for conquering the world.
Fundamental mohammedanism is NOT a religion!
Until we in the West come to appreciate this fact and act accordingly, we will hold low chances of cultural and national survival; in fact, IMO, the Western embrace of fundamental mohammedanism is essentially a self-loathing suicide pact.
carol says
@John Krupa…too true. I’m sure it will take a really, really long time to catch on.
Joe McDonald says
BAN the QUEERAN !!! (that moniker is meant to use the proper literal meaning of the word “queer”, I mean no harm or offence to anyone in the pride community).
To get this done:
Reprint the passages, the satanic verses, advocating genocide & religious persecution (you know the many ones), only wherever it says kill/behead/slay/enslave/tax/rape/pillage/burn the “Jews, Christians, Infidels, Kufars, Polytheists, Unbelievers” etc, replace any of those with “muslim” or “isLIEmist”…. feed the hateful heresy right back to the “muslim supremacists” verbatim!!
Then distribute the new “Crusade-an” in front of mosques, isLIEmic centres at spewniversities, halls of government, police stations and to left wing kook’s homes.
Be sure to read from the edited book with a bullhorn, and have copies of the most offensive passages to hand out.
When these books are cited as hate speech and are slated to be destroyed, and they charge you, so too by default will the queeran be banned, and the swat teams will be required to siege the mosques, isLIEmic centres & cultist’s homes, and seize their offensive tomes for destruction.
Giant Bonfires like when they burn illegal drugs.
No, wait, the putrid toxic smoke would foul the heavens. Better to shred & compost them into swine feed, they can then be excreted and the swine excrement shipped to any oppressive, intolerant, uncivilized “caliphate”, mixed in with “halal” food stuffs.
As I said, FEED IT BACK TO THEM VERBATIM!!
Daniel Triplett says
Excellent idea.
I’d suggest first, before doing your plan, remove all the abrogated obsolete passages, so the Muslims can’t use them as a false claim to moral righteousness and a red-herring.
TH says
The Protestant Reformation was an unremitting disaster and it caused many wars.In Holland, they began their war by burning 80 churches in one night. Calvin set up his intolerant Theocracy in Geneva. Luther rebelled against the Pope and put himself in the hands of the princes. As for Henry VIII, he rebelled in order to give free reign to his lust, as well as avarice by stealing the monasteries from the monks and thus fill the country with beggars, who previously had been helped by the monks. As for a return to the canonical text, the Catholic Church never abandoned it. The Protestants rejected part of the canon accepted for more than a millennium by the Catholics and Orthodox. History is against Protestantism. As for it being a model for what should happen in Islam, it is totally the contrary. This argument is a total fallacy.
billybob says
TH – that was an interesting lesson in a history I should study up on sometime. However, I must disagree with your conclusion that the Protestant Reformation was an unremitting disaster. While it may well have been at the time, it seems to have all worked out well in the end. Today the Protestant faiths are distinctly different than Catholicism in exactly the ways one would hope for – ie: truly a reformation of that corrupt body for the better.
Bing says
bully bob, I don’t see that Protestantism has worked out the way I would have hoped for. Tens of thousands of denominations disagreeing with one another has weakened Christianity so much that it cannot even convert people from the craziest of secular dogmas today. Protestantism has given us worldly self-worship wrapped in a thin layer of feel-good christianity. I’ll stick with the Church Christ founded on the Rock of Peter, despite its warts
ed cox says
Yoy mean Baptist the only group that traces there origins back to Christ .
Daniel Triplett says
I was raised Episcopal.
Went to a Catholic boys high-school.
Today I attend Evangelical Churches of the Joel Osteen persuasion.
I love all Christians: Catholics, Protestants, Evangelical, or whatever.
Of the aforementioned, the priority upon which we all must focus is what we have in common: Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Pastor C says
Brilliant and insightful observations!
I particularly enjoyed reading the part of your piece, Dr. Kirby, where you interjected your willingness to explain the reasons for Muslim’s very telling lack of response to the prospect of reform for free! It was, exactly, what I was thinking at the very moment I read it.
This vain attempt at reaching out the vast majority of the American Muslim population, in the name of reform, speaks volumes to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Dacritic says
Exactly. Zuhdi Jasser really should just leave Islam. In a way people like him are more dangerous than the ones he is trying to “reform”, because he is trying to make the public think that Islam can be peaceful. Sorry, no.
C T says
The leaders of mosques have no interest in accepting basic human rights, for apostasy is one of them. Where would their funding and power come from then?
Christianblood says
Islam cannot be reformed. It should be banned as a dangerous cult of death!
More Ham Ed says
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LEAVE, GO GET ONE, AND DON’T COME BACK PLEASE.
vladkoval says
“Islam cannot be reformed. It should be banned as a dangerous cult of death!”
I agree. But why wouldn’t you go and tell it to your Kadyrov, the hero of Russia, who confessed he killed his first Russian at the age of 16?
And why wouldn’t you tell it to Putin, who adopted the law making Quran immune from extremism charges?
Christianblood says
Vladkoval
Russia is not yet deeply infected with the political-correctness diseases that come from the secular cult known as “liberal democracy” and therefore islam is not an acute threat to Russia at this moment in history, but if that changes Russia will know what to do and it will not hampered by the spineless, suicidal decadence known as “liberal democracy, freedom” etc. Look at the US. They recently elected Donald Trump who is a good man with common sense, who is simply trying to protect US from islamic terrorists and his executive orders concerning this threat are all denied by some pro-islamic liberal judge! That is unbelievable! Russia was dealing with islamic jihad and islamic supremacist ideologies for the last 700 years, long before America existed as a nation and it needs to no body’s help in facing this threat now. What Russia needs to resist more acutely now is the destructive postmodernist, moral relativist, radical secular religion known as Western liberal democracy which is just as destructive as islamic extremism. Vladkoval, you need to understand that Western secular liberal democracy and the global extremes of radical islam are the poles of the Anti-Christ. They are the two ends of an spectrum of Evil.
Angemon says
Christianblood posted:
“Russia is not yet deeply infected with the political-correctness diseases”
Are you talking about the same Russia where preaching the Gospel in the street can get you thrown in jail? The same Russia that praised a jihadi leader that exhorted his followers to kill as many Rusians as possible as a “hero of the Russian Federation”? The same Russia whose leader described it as a “defender of the muslim world”?
“that come from the secular cult known as “liberal democracy” and therefore islam is not an acute threat to Russia at this moment in history”
How are things in Chechnya, with the ongoing islamic insurgence? And seeing how Russia is one of the largest suppliers of foreign fighters to ISIS, what do you think it’ll happen if/when ISIS is defeated and they return to their home? Also, this:
http://www.ilanberman.com/19487/russia-fraught-demographic-future
Like the commander of the Titanic might have said, “that iceberg up ahead is not a threat for us right now”…
“Look at the US. They recently elected Donald Trump who is a good man with common sense, who is simply trying to protect US from islamic terrorists”
And yet, yesterday you called “the West” – that includes Donald Trump – “muslim loving”. All that twisting and pretzling can’t be good for your spine- assuming you have one…
“and his executive orders concerning this threat are all denied by some pro-islamic liberal judge! ”
This might come to a shock to you, seeing how much your lips are glued to Russia’s ass, but in Western nations the executive and judicial systems are separated. That ensures the state can’t use the judicial system to persecute its political enemies. Shocking concept to you, I’m sure, but that’s how things are – if you think the state is wronging you, you can expect to have a fair trial. Oh, this reminds me: are you still living in a Western nation? I’ve asked you this many times and you always ignore it. Why?
“ Russia was dealing with islamic jihad and islamic supremacist ideologies for the last 700 years, long before America existed as a nation and it needs to no body’s help in facing this threat now. ”
In the last half of the 20th century and onwards, Russia empowered muslim terrorism and used it as a tool to attack the US (and the West in general) with.
“What Russia needs to resist more acutely now is the destructive postmodernist, moral relativist, radical secular religion known as Western liberal democracy ”
Just goes to show how little you know about religion if you claim democracy is a religion… Maybe you shouldn’t opine on subjects you have no knowledge about? Unless you’re trying to look like an uneducated buffoon, in which case, please, carry on.
“which is just as destructive as islamic extremism. ”
Huh, no. Just… no. Please compare Lebanon when it was a Western-styled democracy with Lebanon after Soviet-backed islamic terrorists moved over (Arafat and his buddies). It’s easy to see which of those two is the destructive force.
“Vladkoval, you need to understand that Western secular liberal democracy and the global extremes of radical islam are the poles of the Anti-Christ. They are the two ends of an spectrum of Evil.”
Huh, no. Your hatred of Western values is indistinguishable, both in nature and expression, from the hatred islamic terrorists have for Western values. And speaking of which, are you still living in a Western nation?
Angemon says
BTW, CB, I see nowhere in your rant a reply – or even the semblance of one – to vladkoval’s queries regarding Kadyrov – the “hero of the Russian Federation” I mentioned – and the laws that protect the quran. I see, however, a lot of “whataboutism”:
Christianblood says
Angemon
Your lies are unbelievably bizarre! The overwhelming majority of Russian are professing Christians, most are Orthodox but also there are Catholics and Protestants and they all believe the Gospel and Bible to be the word of God so your words don’t make any sense at all. There are some Western NGO who use preaching and missions or “humanitarian” works for cover but have other sinister liberal agenda behind the scenes and those will not be tolerated.
vladkoval says
Christianblood wrote:
February 25, 2017 at 8:14 am
“Vladkoval
Russia is not yet deeply infected with the political-correctness diseases that come from the secular cult known as “liberal democracy” and therefore islam is not an acute threat to Russia at this moment in history”
Looks like you are just fond of typing no matter wether your posts have something common with reality or not.
Can you imagine in USA the law of “mockery of religious beliefs”?
He who says in Russia, for example, “Islam and Quran are from devil” goes to prison or pays big fine. And after that you dare to talk about “Political Correctness Cult”? Russia is incarnation of Political Correctness regarding Islam.
“Russia was dealing with islamic jihad and islamic supremacist ideologies for the last 700 years, long before America existed as a nation”
Yes. It was. Muslims in Russian Empire before 1917 had Sharia Laws, allowed by the Tsarism. When America finally came to life as a nation, it didn’t allow muslims to enter it, while at the same time muslims in Russia lived with their poligamies etc etc.
Christianblood says
Vladkoval
Russia had always a native of minority muslims and they always had the freedom to practice their religion in their remote regions and that never bothered Russians. It was only when they started some jihad in collaboration with Turks that Russians had some problems with them. Mockery of religious beliefs or Religious Hooliganism law was introduced when a group of extreme feminists known as “Pussy Riot” which was sponsored and funded by the West desecrated the “Cathedral of Christ the Savior” in Moscow a few years ago and they were arrested and rightly charged with “religious hooliganism” and they spent two years in jail for it. This was done to defend Russia’s Christianity from the atheistic, anti-Christ West who want to defile it and desecrate it.
Ron says
Here in the Deep South of the U.S. most of us are very conservative. We would never approve of “Pussy Riot” nor the disrespect they showed everyone.
It is true we have some extreme political activists, and the publicity they get is greatly disproportionate to their numbers. If you read our newspapers or watch most American TV you will find most of both media are on the far Left, so it would be natural to believe that a very large number of Americans are bordering on anarchy.
Most of the people I know are well aware that the far Left is trying to discredit Trump for his favorable view of Putin, and others see a plot behind every tree. We are not the delusional people we are portrayed to be, and I don’t believe Russians are devils.
Christianblood says
Vladkoval posted
(..He who says in Russia, for example, “Islam and Quran are from devil..)
Dear Vlad, Russians don’t react to Islamic terror with mere words but with an overwhelming force! I can assure you, if any Islamic terrorists raise their ugly head in Russia they will be annihilated.
Muslims in Russia are not as emboldened to carry out jihadist activities as those in the West are because they know very well Russia is NOT Sweden or Germany or the UK or the US etc. There was a time a decade and half ago, when Russia was under Yeltsin or the early years of Putin when islamists smelled blood and started carrying out a number of deadly jihadist attacks. Not anymore, now the situation is different and jihadists know that very well.
Christianblood says
Ron
Dear Ron, thanks for your constructive and truthful comments.
Russia and the conservative Middle America share a lot in terms of moral and family values and common sense worldview which is based on the principals of Christianity. Unfortunately as you rightly pointed out the people who are at the driving seat of US and Western civilization in governments now, like the media, the academia and the popular culture are far left, postmodernist liberal secularists who deeply despise hate Christianity and Russia and anyone who don’t share their beliefs and that is the reality we are facing today. Look at Donald Trump, he can’t even temporarily ban islamic refugees from entering America as he has promised and it all took a single, liberal, pro-islamic judge to block his executive order concerning this.
vladkoval says
Christianblood wrote:
“””Vladkoval
“Russia had always a native of minority muslims and they always had the freedom to practice their religion in their remote regions and that never bothered Russians.”
Of course! Why should muslims bother those who already caved to them?
“Mockery of religious beliefs or Religious Hooliganism law was introduced when a group of extreme feminists known as “Pussy Riot” which was sponsored and funded by the West”
In your sick world even if someone goes to toilet – that means Soros paid him for that))
“desecrated the “Cathedral of Christ the Savior” in Moscow a few years ago and they were arrested and rightly charged with “religious hooliganism” ”
Eh..Desecrated the Cathedral? Or desecrated Putin?
The song they were singing is in fact political, not anti-religious.
“Oh, Theotokos, become a feminst”
ROC, caving to muslims, is really mysoginic, like its master – Islam. Remember recently Chaplin supported FGM after the scandal with a mufti from Dagestan?
“and they spent two years in jail for it. This was done to defend Russia’s Christianity from the atheistic, anti-Christ West who want to defile it and desecrate it.”
If Russia’s “Christianity” needs to be defended by imprisoning young girls for years whose factual “crime” is worth of 20 dollars fine (maximum!) – there is really big problem with Russia’s “Christianity”.
vladkoval says
Christianblood wrote:
February 25, 2017 at 6:51 pm
“”
Vladkoval posted
(..He who says in Russia, for example, “Islam and Quran are from devil..)
“”””Dear Vlad, Russians don’t react to Islamic terror with mere words but with an overwhelming force! I can assure you, if any Islamic terrorists raise their ugly head in Russia they will be annihilated.”””””
Like always you play fool. Just read Kavkaz-Center. – they know that majority in Russia doesn’t need to be killed – the mortality rate is so high due to Putin’s regime that it looks like Chechenian islamists even condole them.
“”Muslims in Russia are not as emboldened to carry out jihadist activities”
I already told why
“” as those in the West are because they know very well Russia is NOT Sweden or Germany or the UK or the US etc.”
Yes, Russia is not like the West. Criticism of Quran is banned and punishable by prison!
You recently mentioned Daniil Sysoyev, who was killed by a muslim for criticizing Islam. I saw Sysoyev’s works. Did he say “Muhammed was a pedophile”? Nope. Did he say “I wipe my ass with Quran”? Nope. The worst thing he ever said against Islam was “Muslims worship Allah the spiritual idol”. That speaks volumes about the situation with Islam in Russia. No public person since the murder dared to utter a word against Islam in Russia. Only praising. Religion of peace. Etc.
Christianblood says
Vladkoval posted
(..You recently mentioned Daniil Sysoyev, who was killed by a muslim for criticizing Islam. I saw Sysoyev’s works. Did he say “Muhammed was a pedophile”? Nope. Did he say “I wipe my ass with Quran”? Nope..)
Vlad, you don’t have to do these things to oppose muslims, Fr. Daniil was doing far better than, that he was converting so many muslims from the islamic death cult by lovingly pointing out that islam is darkness and that Christ is the light. I believe one can defeat the force darkness by letting the light of Christ shine brightly but if one hides the light of Christ, is ignorant about it or rejects it and is ashamed of it as the majority of the peoples of the West are doing today than the darkness will prevail and islam will be emboldened. The light is in Word but also in the Symbols!
Russia has hundreds of thousands of monks, priests and ascetics and holy men and women who daily openly carry the holy icons, symbols, crosses and other saintly religious signs among the masses and that in itself has its own power to shine the light. Even Russian soldiers and officers openly venerate Christianity in their duties. Could the same be said about the West? There was an American navy officer two years ago who was fired because he kept a Bible on his desk!!! Look it up! Please Watch the 3 minute video clip below to understand what I am talking about:
vladkoval says
CB, watch this video. It’s in Arabic. It’s about the Putin’s law protecting Quran (along with other books) from extremism charges. All muslims of the world know that. What a nice message from Russia to all muslims of the world making them confident knowing that their cult of death sacred book is worthy of protection.
Christianblood says
Vladkoval
Thanks for the video. Vlad, these things are done for political reasons
and they will never change the truth about islam or the nature of islam. I guess Putin is copying from the West here!
RichardL says
Zuhdi Jasser is a great hero. A rather tragic one.
I keep asking myself how and why he still thinks he is a Muslim.
Greyhound Fancier says
Mr. Jasser appears to be sincere. I wish his views were realistic.
Daniel Triplett says
Dr. Zuhdi Jasser is dangerous, and I wish Fox would stop paying attention to him.
He’s a charismatic guy, well-spoken, and seemingly harmless.
Either he’s a master Taqiyya-artist, or he’s sincere. Either way, he’s misleading the Kafirs into thinking his ideas could work. They never will.
Jasser is implying that polishing a turd can remove the stink and make it lovable. Impossible.
Removing the evil of Islam would leave nothing left. It’s not worth saving, even if it were possible.
Muslims wishing to reform Islam should drop the daydream, pick up our Bible, New Testament, New Living Translation. Apostasy and conversion to Christianity is the path to Eternal happiness.
The best plan for Jasser and all other Muslims is to say and believe this:
“Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. Come into my heart. I make you my Lord and Savior.”
It’s that simple.
faraway says
This is what mohammed did just before dying.He knew he had faked the koran and confessing to god was his only chance of avoiding hellfire.
mousey says
daniel, there is no such thing as removing evil from islam. Islam means total surrender to god. So by definition islam has no evil. What must be done: separate islam from what’s been evily attached to during the last 1400 years.
Daniel Triplett says
Islam is a criminal syndicate, dressed up as a religion.
The answer is to extinguish Islam from Earth. Worldwide forced criminalization.
Diane Harvey says
Got 40 responses.
Each one a death threat.
gravenimage says
Well, “fewer than ten” weren’t–not that this is saying a lot…
gravenimage says
Muslim Reform Group Reached Out to 3,000 US Mosques, Got Only 40 Responses
………………………….
And “less than ten”–I wonder how much less tha ten?–responses were positive.
Given that Dr. Zuhdi Jasser was expelled from his old Mosque and has been unable to find another one that will let him attend–note: not a Mosque that fully agrees with him, but just one that will allow him to worship there–this does not surprise.
DogOnPorch says
Islam reform won’t work if what Robert taught us is correct. These guys are just Apostates to the greater Umma. To be punished.
gravenimage says
Jasser spends more time reassuring Infidels that Islam is not at heart violent than he does trying to convince Muslims of the same.
miriamrove says
Hi. Respectfully he does better. He calls them the way it should be. Political Islam. m
Jaladhi says
Islam cannot and will not reform. I don’t know why some Muslims have this illusion that they canreform Islam and that is why only 40 mosques out of 3000 responded and I bet their response had nothing to do with reformation of Islam. What’s the point of reforming Islam – there is no redeeming value in this “religion” and after reformation Islam will not be Islam. It’s an illusion of Zuhdi Jasser to reform Islam. He should just get out of this cult and forget Islam.
mousey says
jaladhi, i disagree. Islam can reform, and islam will reform. But not with western values or christianity
carol says
@mousey…Western values/christianity (in theory and usually in action) are good, humane values, so what in the world would they be replaced with?? My guess is something a wee bit more subtle but just as predatory and supremacist as Islam.
mousey says
something has to be done. You aren’t going to kill 1/4 of the world’s population, right? Somehow muslims have to progress out of hate and killing. They need an out, as assange once said. The out has got to be practical. It can’t be christianity or judaism or polytheism, because they’ve been raised to hate and look down on those. They need something in line with the core of their beliefs but with a higher understanding of how to practice that core. The knowledge IS out there.
Terry says
Can we say that they are engaged in mental masturbation?
Playing mind games with themselves.
Asking
SaipanSam says
Islam is being reformed. It’s becoming more violent, more misogynistic, more anti-democratic and is doing so in leaps and bounds.
Islam is a cancer.
Guest says
He seems like a nice guy, but I find it rather suspect that he is asking for money. Clearly, islamic reform can’t fly. Is he preying on the infidel’s ignorance and endless hope?
ed cox says
Have any where the mosque in South Carolina is ?
mousey says
i emailed them. If they answer i’ll post it here.
ed cox says
There a many mosque in SC , but we also have holy islamville in York .
Vic says
What specific parts of the Koran are peaceful enough to build a religion around It? If the rest of the books are taken away as “non canonical”–could reformers have enough evidence to actually support the Koran? The jurisprudence clearly didn’t become part of Islam until later so if religion and political ideology are separated, what would Muslims have as a religion? Very difficult to see through this 1400 year old conflagration of beliefs, traditions, actual historical data and anecdotal accounts, many of which contradict each other, in order to find a “foundational platform” that progressive reformers can use to make changes.
After all the education we have received from Robert, plus all other scholars who have posited their findings about Islam plus the reality we see happening around and sites with lots of information we have been exposed to, how can reform actually happen?
It is even hard to believe that Muslims who actually read and study the Koran continue to remain Muslims.
Ciudadano says
“if religion and political ideology are separated, what would Muslims have as a religion?”
Most Quran texts are about politics. From https://www.politicalislam.com/about/:
The rest of the Quran are ill translated, distorted and plagiarized texts from the Torah, Christian canonical texts and Christian apocryphal texts. Check out:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/index.html
“Inside Islam A Guide for Catholics” by Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer
So if you remove politics from Islam you are left with an absurdity. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa contra Gentiles:
Or, as Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, expressed more succinctly:
mousey says
thank you for the links
mortimer says
THE REASONS THERE ARE FEW MODERATE MUSLIMS:
Muslims who do not practice ALL Islamic teachings are called ‘hypocrites’ (munafiqoon)…at worst, they are disbelievers…those who voluntarily remove themselves from Islam should be killed according to Sharia law.
Muslims who abandon key teachings of Islam are liable to be ‘punished’ for KUFR (wrong worship).
Types of Kufr
-Sharia law/Reliance of the Traveller/P64.2/5- “The thing I fear most for my Community is the eloquent hypocrite.”
-Muhammad Abdul Wahab said in his famous treatise The Ten Contradictions: “whosoever does not regard a kafir as a kafir or a polytheist as a kafir or did not try to correct them is himself a kafir.”
-Kufrul-Istibdaal: one who rejects or tries to reform Allah’s laws to suit the changing zeitgeist or for their own personal needs.
-Kufrul-Nifaaq: one who pretends to believe but conceals his disbelief, referred to as munafiq or hypocrite and will be in the lowest level of Hell (Q4:145)
-Kufrul-I’raadh: one who avoids for their own convenience practicing the religion of Islam yet is informed about its truth
-“If someone dies without participating in Jihad and not having the Intention of ever doing Jihaad, he has died on a branch of Hypocrisy (Nifaaq)” – Ibn Taymiyyah
marina says
It would be better if these reformers become apostates and not waste infidel’s money on some useless reformation.
Mirren10 says
‘Muslim reform’.
What utter nonsense. You can’t polish a turd. What is *wrong* with these people ? This idiotic desire to *pretend* there is *anything* in Islam worth salvaging. Just go the whole hog, and dump the whole disgusting, evil mess.
And how typically islamic, is this nonsense from Jasser. His own co-religionists won’t have anything to do with it, but he has the damned brass neck to intimate that the ‘infidels’ should fund his pathetic and doomed attempts to ‘reform’ the most disgusting and evil creed ever known. No surprise, really. Muslims are par excellence at the art of victimhood,, and the art of trying to convince non-muslims they are to blame, because we won’t pay lotsa money to ‘reform’ this evil creed. Jasser is a hypocritical POS.
Mirren10 says
‘Muslim reform’.
What utter nonsense. You can’t polish a turd. What is *wrong* with these people ? This idiotic desire to *pretend* there is *anything* in Islam worth salvaging. Just go the whole hog, and dump the whole disgusting, evil mess.
And how typically islamic, is this nonsense from Jasser. His own co-religionists won’t have anything to do with it, but he has the damned brass neck to intimate that the ‘infidels’ should fund his pathetic and doomed attempts to ‘reform’ the most disgusting and evil creed ever known. No surprise, really. Muslims are par excellence at the art of victimhood,, and the art of trying to convince non-muslims they are to blame, because we won’t pay lotsa money to ‘reform’ this evil creed. Jasser is a hypocritical POS.
*And* a typical Muslim. These creatures make me vomit.
mortimer says
-Kufrul-Istibdaal: one who rejects or tries to reform Allah’s laws to suit the changing zeitgeist or for their own personal needs.
Bid’ah Say’iah, “a new thing” which “opposes the Qur’an and Sunnah” or is “against Islam”.
-Ali ibn Abu Talib, of the Rashidun (rightly guided Caliphs), said; “He who innovates or gives protection to an innovator, there is a curse of Allah and that of His angels and that of the whole humanity upon him.”
-`Abd Allah ibn `Umar said: “Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people see it as something good.”
-Ibraaheem ibn Maysarah mentions: “Whoever honours an innovator has aided in the destruction of Islam.”
-Al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali al-Barbahari mentions: “The innovators are like scorpions.”
Surak says
You make me want to vomit. Dr. Jasser may be a Don Quixote, but he is risking his life by his public campaign to change Islam. You are typing bile anonymously. I doubt Dr. Jasser will be successful, but he is much to be admired, unlike you.
Joe McDonald says
Please see my post above re halal turd.
Shredded composted and fed to swine, the excreted queeran turd can be mixed in with “halal” food stuffs and shipped to oppressive & uncivilized caliphates.
Feed their foul hatred back to them,
(Burning korans is forbidden as it would stench the heavens).
Vyx says
Infidels want Islam to reform to make life easier in Western nations.
Islam has no intention of changing.
mortimer says
Islam cannot change or be reformed (as per the quotes I posted above from Islamic authorities.)
Ron says
This westerner doesn’t care a fig about whether or not Islam reforms itself. If we were wiser we would realize that Muslims will continue to propagate their ideology regardless of who might object to it.
Islam has chosen to embrace warfare, violence, exclusivity, intolerance, cruelty, dhimmitude, sexual inequality and, most of all, critical thinking. It is only natural that the rest of he world considers this 7th century death cult something to be avoided, and avoiding Muslims may be the best strategy of all. Left to their own devices and given enough time, they will self-destruct.
common sense says
Reformation for Islam is like regrouping in a battle before the next strike. I’ve seen Dr.Jasser speak logically many times, he seems to fall short here. He needs to leave Islam and just be an American.
Muslims are getting WAY more extreme and emboldened, world wide rape, assualt, murder of citizens in western cities by stabbing, shooting and bombings,, lying for welfare benefits to destroy western social economics, fostering oppression, pedophillia, open abuse of womens rights, genital multilation, political and religious intimidation, ethnic cleansing, over breeding, no go zones, rioting, drug dealing, destruction of Christianity and all other religions and political corruption.
In Iraq there are the beheadings, sexual slavery, pedophilia, the slave trade, piracy, drug trade, burning people alive, throwing gays from roof tops, stoning women in the street, drownings and growing stronger around other areas of the world even if we destroy the hard core elements of ISIS and every other Islamofacist group..
Mirren10 says
Exactly. Given that the koran is supposed to be the unchanging word of ‘allah’,’ not to mention the repulsive and evil Mohammed, who is the most wonderful example, one wonders what exactly ‘reform’ers’ like Jasser are playing at. Nothing good.
DJM says
Kudos for Jasser for trying, but you simply cannot reform Islam.
The only way to reform it is to reject the Quran, reject Muhammad’s behavior (as he is the example for Muslims to follow), and reject the Hadiths. Without them, there is no Islam.
Harry Harif says
May I suggest anyone who wants to see what the Muslim community of America wants go to the next khalifa conference of Hizb Ut-Tahrir America. I have been to 2 here in Chicago and I was speechless after, and I lived among Muslims for 17 years and spoke Arabic fluently.
avi15 says
What made you speechless?
berserker says
What is the first thing that the followers of Muhammad do after the death of Muhammad?
Eric Jones says
After Mohammad died sme of his followers tried to leave islam. Those who tried to leave were killed in the Apostasy Wars waged by the successort o Mohammad, Abu-Bakr.
Eric
Eric Jones says
Typos
some
successor to
Eric
Voytek Gagalka says
Why they still attempt to “reform” what is virtually un-reformable, is beyond my understanding. Vast majority of Muslims sense that and they will not come forward and surely risk their (and their family’s) lives if they would ever try – for one simple reason that Islam was FORCED on them or their ancestors. The entry was and is extremely easy; exit is virtually impossible. That’s not freedom of religion: that is a brute force which keeps Ummah together. To reform that one would have to become like Mohammed: ruthless ruler to enforce his will, constantly risking assassination attempts, similarly as it was Mohammed who only by his ruthlessness and purest luck avoided being killed himself. That’s real sad truth about all tribal leaders: they have to be and stay strong and claim that “heaven” is on their side in order to keep the mob in check.
TheBuffster says
And this is why, in the Arab world, those who *have* gained power and secularized or semi-secularized their countries had to be ruthless leaders themselves, to keep the Islamic true believers from having influence.
vlparker says
Ten positive responses out of 3500. This shows that trying to reform islam is a waste of time and effort.
The religion is what it is. Stop trying to change it. Just leave it.
Jasser and Shireen Qudosi, who was on the recent Glazov Gang, are beating their heads against a wall. Why would you want to salvage a religion founded by such an evil man anyway. It’s nothing but utter fantasy to think you can change it.
abad says
It truly is better to leave Islam mainly because even if it could be reformed, it would still lack the necessary ingredient for salvation, namely, the blood of Jesus Christ.
Can anyone here seriously imagine a “reformed Islam” where Jesus Christ, The One True Living God, is put above the Arab moon deity Allah?
I did not think so.
Kepha says
I’m also of the mind that the only Muslim reformation worth talking about is the mass conversion of Muslims to Christianity.
Steve Klein says
Will this help Keith Ellison?
‘Fire at Florida mosque ruled arson’
By Ralph Ellis and Ryan Rios, CNN
Updated 12:51 PM ET, Fri February 24, 2017
abad says
I would not be surprised if the fire was set by another Muslim playing the victim card:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/fire/overnight-fire-at-thonotosassa-mosque-under-investigation/2314359
davej says
Islam was carefully designed to be reform-proof, hence the death penalty for criticism, mockery or leaving it. Mohammed was a criminal thug who decided to come up with an ideology to legitimize rape, murder, robbery (“booty”), slavery and pedohilia, knowing that this would be very popular with other criminal thugs.
His master stroke was to call it a religion, anticipating the blind faith of it’s followers and the unearned tolerance from other more legitimate faiths. The proof of this is it’s survival for 14 Centuries and it’s current resurgence without real opposition in the modern West.
Islam is the most popular “religion” to convert to in prisons, which tells you a lot.
Matthieu Baudin says
“… It is only attention from the non-Muslim world that will enable the Muslim Reform Movement to remain on life-support, visible but irrelevant….”
Some credit should be given for the honesty shown by this particular reformist group. Spokesmen from Traditional Islamic Organisations are regularly courted by the press and shamelessly engage in comforting and duplicitous dialogue that misleads the public and much of the establishment. A group like this, however, tiny as it may be, is a start along the road to examining Islam objectively; over time some benefit may come from this. We can all dream that Traditional Islam will implode and disappear as the once impregnable Soviet Union recently did, but it is more likely, at least in the medium term, that it will fracture and that reformist groups will form that take on board new values from the wider world as did the early Sufis, or alternatively, reform may take the approach of radically containing the role of Islam in community life, the main direction of the Ataturk modernisation.
M says
Yes, they are looking for money from non-muslims to “reform” islam… Oh, sounds like Jizya to me.
I’m betting that every non-muslim dime they gets goes to Jihad. What better disguise?
abad says
Uh, Islam CANNOT be reformed.
As others here have mentioned, were Islam to reform it would have to get rid of the Quran and Hadith. And that would include the elimination of Jihad, a central tenet in Islam. And once rid of those, it would not be Islam any longer.
So self-delusional some people are in thinking Islam can be reformed.
Self-delusional, indeed.
Angemon says
Huh, I wouldn’t call a dismissive reply “positive”. If I were proposing a deal on Shark Tank and all the four investors dismissed my business proposition, I wouldn’t consider any of the replies “positive”.”
Sam says
Dr. Zuhdi Jasser is a nice guy but he is one of the big enablers of Jihad. He just gives the impression to the clueless that Islam is like other religions which can be reformed and there is a “good” Islam out there somewhere nobody has ever seen.
He would do a much better service to America by denouncing Islam and educating American Muslims on the true nature of Islam which is evil.
Daniel Triplett says
Reform is impossible. Islam hasn’t changed in 1400 years for a reason.
Any reformation would deny the “initial perfection” of Allah’s word, and Muhammad’s authority as the sole model of perfection which every human on Earth must emulate.
To even suggest any reformation is Blasphemy and Heresy, which are serious offenses in Islamic Law. These offenses would likely earn a Muslim execution in most Islamic countries.
Not in 10 years or 10,000 years: Islam will never change.
Angemon says
“Not in 10 years or 10,000 years: Islam will never change.”
While I share that feeling, I’ll play devil’s advocate and say that the existence of groups like the MRM may have strategic value: being muslims, their criticism of islam can’t be dismissed as “islamophobia” by the usual suspects.
Daniel Triplett says
I suppose Jasser, being Muslim, would have credibility in some Muslim minds, possibly getting the gears of Islamic doubt turning.
Nonetheless, their goals are untenable.
If they really believe Islam is a POS as is, they ought to apostatize, shit-canning the ideology entirely.
The World has 2.2 Billion Christians who would welcome Muslim Apostates as friends, practicing the same faith, worshiping the same God, and sharing the same values.
Keys says
“3,000 mosques” in the USA – a gravely disturbing and recent invading, infiltrating national cancer.
Gerald Mucci says
Jasser is not only apostate, he is apparently delusional, calling himself a “devout Muslim” in a number of articles he was interviewed in. And the media, including FOX fawn all over him as “the real Muslim. How stupid and disconnected from reality are they.
billybob says
I have been following them for the past year or two. These are good and sincere people – and courageous! They risk their lives for their beliefs. I even met them once – sort of. I found myself commenting in the same forum as them once. But I agree with all the very articulate posters above – these people are strangely fixated on trying to save that which cannot be redeemed. These are very special people, very spiritual beings who unfortunately only know Islam and therefore project their own values upon it because they know nothing else. I say to these good folks – just take a moment to read the New Testament and listen with your heart and soul to what Christ had to say. You will realize he has the answers you have been seeking all this time, and never look back.
Luigi Valentino says
Muslims living in the United States insist Islam is a “religion of peace.” They try to compare Christianity to Islam. It’s like comparing apples to jalapeño peppers. The Qur’an is a recipe for evil. You might argue that the Bible says terrible things too. Yes, however there was something called the Enlightenment, the Reformation and the New Testament. (Jesus loves you, love thy neighbor, etc.) To the best of my knowledge, Islam has never been reformed.
The difference between Christianity and Islam lies in the difference between Jesus and Muhammad. This is the difference between apples and jalapeño peppers. Jesus was the embodiment of goodness and Muhammad was the incarnation of everything that is abhorrent and evil.
How is the Islam you practice today different from that of Muhammad? It’s not.
Can Islam be reformed? No, it can’t! To reform Islam you have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Qur’an. You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is nonsense and absurdity. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. Muhammad said that he has perfected his religion (Qur’an 5:3). How can you improve something, which is perfect? You can’t change the Qur’an. You can’t reform it. All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, “slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” means something else.
Joe McDonald says
Thank You Kathy Brown for understanding my trepidation at voicing what I see as Francis’ abysmal failure to grasp the essence of Jesus Christ, the greatest person to have ever lived and the Father of all our modern human rights (abortion is not a “right” but rather a macabre, twisted denial of rights to the defensless & innocent unborn -it is the most vile example of bullying imaginable!), decency, morality, tolerance, forgiveness & healing, charity, equality, justice, empathy, honour & valour, and he did this in an era when such things were unheard of and unacceptable to the powers that were.
He paid the supreme price for it, as did most of his followers, but prevail they did!
The last words of the New Testament:
“Whoever takes from or adds to this book will be cut from the tree of life and will suffer all the plagues herein”.
And so moohumed created his own edit deleting the peace, decency & goodness…
and adding all manner of violence, inhumanity, perversion and such to suit his own avarice.
How’d that work out for you and your “believers” moohumed??
syria somolia (n)sudan saudi libya yemen iran iraq afghan lebanon palestine pakistan egypt and all oppressive, dysfunctional, uncivilized, miserable, destructive, chaotic, anarchist isLIEmic states (and of course the shariaDiahrea sanctuary sewers sprouting up like blight in the once pleasant Europe/UK/Nordic countries) are just wonderful places to live, especially if you are a 9yr old girl, NOT!!!
The contrast between these isLIEmic cesspools VS modern western civilization is a perfect metaphor for the difference between moohumed VS Jesus Christ.
Popes Benedict & John Paul II were far wiser men and true Christians worthy of respect from any Christian of any denomination.
Let us pray for the conversion, healing & forgiveness of all souls lead astray by the deception, heresy, blasphemy & falsehoods of islam.
n tesdorf says
I have to agree that reforming Islam has proved to be a thankless process. Most Muslims see no need for it to be reformed, despite the fact that there nothing of value in Islam to retain or salvage. Most are violently opposed to it being reformed. The Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos was absolutely right. In Islam “there you will find things only evil and inhuman”
It might be easier to keep on offering them Christianity than reform Islam; something not worth reforming.
Debi Brand says
Indeed. Well stated.
Mike Trivisonno says
The reason why we suffer from the predations of muslims engaged in violent jihad is because of muslims like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser who are engaged in intellectual jihad. He and his gaggle of “reformers” are, as we would call them, nothing more than judas goats.
For, if they were honest about Islam, they would have left Islam.
There are no reformers in the House of Islam; they are all liars.
duh swami says
When you reform perfection, what do you get?
Dear Allah (SWY) there are a few things I don’t like about your religion, so I reformed it,,,I hope you don’t mind…
Joe McDonald says
Jesus Christ said:
“Go and be fishers of men”.
What greater well stocked ocean to cast your net than Islam?
Peter Boardman (Peter the Hermit) says
German philosopher Friedrich Ueberweg observed that the Koran might have 7, 70 or 700 layers of interpretation. Plenty to reform there…
Somebody says
What a naive people… Islam can not be reformed (It is against islam to even talk about this) …
Are you guys ALIENS ?
In order to reform islam you need to exterminate every single muslim on earth.
vlparker says
Did anyone see the “When did WW III Begin?” panels at CPAC? Part A which talked about domestic issues was very good. The speakers were Sheriff David Clarke, Trevor Loudon, Clair Lopez and Maureen Ohlhausen. They were all great.
Part B which focused on foreign policy was an utter disaster. The panel was made up of Ambassador Francis Rooney, Mike Waltz (former Green Beret), Sebastian Gorka and Zuhdi Jasser. It was nothing but non-stop ” islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by a radical minority” nonsense. Gorka, who is praised by so many people on the right, was very disappointing. This could have been a panel at PPAC (Progressive Political Action Committee). It sounded pretty close to the Obama Democrat Party line.
And we have the disastrous pick of McMasters on top of this CPAC drivel. We have a big mountain to climb.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/hr-mcmaster-breaks-with-administration-on-views-of-islam/ar-AAnkSkJ?ocid=spartanntp
Daniel Triplett says
Thanks for the summary. Part B is so disheartening.
Jasser is a fool. I’ve read much of Gorka’s strategy, and it will never work. That DJT has both him and McMaster in such high position in the West Wing is a huge setback. Robert Spencer belongs in Gorka’s window office. Show Gorka the door now. Put Robert in.
I hope Bannon and Miller are superior influences.
BTW, after spending 6 years Active Duty in the Islamic War as a USAF Pilot, here’s the only strategy I see bringing us victory. Look at it from a God’s Eye view, and perhaps you’ll agree. Further, every time I poll test this on Twitter, hundreds vote, and 75 – 85% agree:
https://medium.com/@dantriplett/islamic-jihad-is-total-war-for-all-marbles-6c858098b76e#.1wgkocs96
John Krupa says
Daniel Triplett, regarding your response to vlparker: ” … Part B is so disheartening. … Jasser is a fool. …”
[I] Yes, Jasser is a fool [or it is taquiya]: invariably when I see this guy on TV, in short order, I end up screaming at the set. From his appearances I have NEVER seen any interviewer ask him any of the fundamental critical questions:
[i] Dr. Jasser, how do reconcile the fact that the unholy prophet — misery and death be upon him — was one of the humanity’s worst human beings ever; that he was a murdering warlord, torturer, enslaver, rapist, misogynist, pedophile and etc?
[ii] Dr. Jasser, how do reconcile the above with the fact that ALL of the significant centers of fundamental muhammedan studies insist that the unholy prophet was the PERFECT man and is to be emulated in ALL ways?
[iii] Dr. Jasser, how do reconcile the fact that fundamental muhammedanism shares identical characteristics as many [all?] criminal organizations? See mafia; see Pablo Escobar; see Crips and Bloods, Hells Angels, ad nauseum; where all such organizations demand absolute loyalty, do “charitable” works for their “people” and address apostasy with death and destruction.
[iv] Dr. Jasser, in view of these FACTS, how in the hell can fundamental muhammedanism even be considered to be a religion? Why, in view of this, is it not possible to have a religion of “Infanticide”?
[II] Part B is so disheartening: This was, by far, Gorka’s poorest performance; that is, of the ones I have seen. I do not know much about Gorka — he’s a “polished” speaker, who puts on a good appearance [but appearance by itself does nothing for me] — nor much about McMaster, but, I can only say that I have seen/read some people, who I believe to have the “proper attitude” regarding the need to destroy this death cult, who hold these two guys in high regard. I’m just a working shmuck who reads the newspapers … as I do not dwell in Wash DC circles with these people. In matters such as this, until proven otherwise, I feel compelled to trust DJT’s personnel choices … and to give him some ground to have such things develop and play out. [You know: trust but verify.] Note: I suspect that I am speaking for MANY when I say that whatever these choices of DJT, I feel tremendously better than I/we would have felt with choices as would have been made by another President Clinton. Of this, there is NO doubt in my mind.
Fundamental muhammedanism, as described in its perverted texts, is nothing more than a political code — cult instructions — for tyrants, dictators, bullies and self-centered megalomaniacal juvenile delinquents … for conquering the world.
Fundamental muhammedanism is NOT a religion!
Until we in the West come to appreciate this fact and act accordingly, we will hold low chance of cultural and/or national survival; in fact, IMO, the Western embrace of fundamental muhammedanism is essentially a self-loathing suicide pact. This must not be permitted to continue.
DJT is making positive strides by using the words — radical islamic terrorism [although, I prefer words a bit harsher and more precise] — to inform and educate the West … and, just by doing so, he is heads and shoulders above insane obama and pantywaist-politician GW Bush both of whom insisted on that lying sack-o-sh*t phrase, “religion of peace”. obama, who I always knew to be an anti-American communist, didn’t surprise me because I know he would need no prompting to sell out our country; however, GWB, on the other hand, where I expected him to know and act better, made me want to vomit.
No, from DJT, I do not expect perfection; however, from him and his appointees, I see all of these to be at least several steps up the ladder, in comparison with their counterparts in the previous administration, toward the objective of the recognition and destruction of this death cult and it venomous ideology.
Now, IMO, all we need is for the majority of Americans — and the West — to be made more aware of this fact; at least, to the point of willing to support DJT and all those willing to do something about it. In the end, the attitude of We The People will be our key metric to success or failure.
John Krupa says
DANIEL TRIPLETT, if you have time and interest, just now [25 Feb, evening] I see this article on the Fox News website: “Trump’s national security adviser reportedly says label ‘radical Islamic terrorism’ not helpful” … which can be linked here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/25/trumps-national-security-adviser-reportedly-says-label-radical-islamic-terrorism-not-helpful.html
Short excerpt: “Peter R. Mansoor, a retired Army colonel who served with McMaster in Iraq during the 2007 surge of U.S. troops, said earlier that McMaster “absolutely does not view Islam as the enemy.”‘
Hmmm … this does not sound too good; however, I suggest reading the full article and also viewing the accompanying video interview of Colonel North … who speaks in glowing terms of McMaster.
As mentioned in the previous text: I simply do not know the proper attitude to take toward this selection … but, at this point in time, I feel compelled to trust DJT … and to thank God that it was not hillary making these selections.
blitz2b says
“….Progressive Muslim thought leaders, though few in number and limited in influence are present and are working to recreate Islam’s religious framework from within…”
The whole idea of progressiveness in Islam is frowned upon… In fact there is a specific verse in the Koran that condemns the Muslims who attempt it as hypocrites.
“…They will present their excuses to you when ye return to them.Say thou: “Present no excuses: we shall not believe you: Allah hath already informed us of the true state of matters concerning you: It is your actions that Allah and His Messenger will observe: in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did.” (Surah At-Tawba, 94)…”
There are tons of other verses concerning hypocrites which proves that Mohammed faced criticism within the ranks of believers through out his 23yr. ministry.
Read here:
http://www.quranindex.net/kelime.php?id=8308
That is the reason why Mr Jasser did not get any tangible response from the American mosque communities.
Progressive reform would actually cause Islam to implode upon itself…. And the Muslim knows it…
Florida Jim says
Dr.Zhudi Jasser is a saint one of the very, very few Muslims I trust the rest want a Caliphate, Sharia, Jihad, Taqiyya and beheading. He should be studied and all muslims should join his movement if they want to remain good human beings not muslim killers.
A Muslim Reformer Speaks Out About His Battle Against Islamism And PC
‘Muslims cannot reform their interpretations of Islam under the boots of regimes that manifest interpretations of Islam through blasphemy, apostasy, and treason laws.’
Steve Postal
By Steve Postal This is a good column
January 30, 2017
KrazyKafir says
I still stand by my conviction that the supposed moderate Muslims are even more dangerous, in the long run, than the military wing (Jihadists) of the ummah. They perpetuate a virulent violent ideology. Without completely, and thoroughly, debunking all the violent commands in the Qur’an, and hadiths, then they are nothing more than carriers, like Typhoid Mary was. As we see so often, many Muslims suddenly see all those violent commands, as relevant and important, even if for their whole lifetime they didn’t. Or, their offspring do.
Wolf Woman says
Yes, you are right, Krazy Kair. Also, I think Jasser and his group are dangerous because they give hope
to the uneducated, those Americans who are ignorant of the Islamic doctrine and sharia law and they stop the progress of this knowledge by their delusional thinking. They only divert energy from our understanding of the Islamic totalitarian ideology and its civilizational war on us and how we can best resist it.
Troybeam says
This idea of Jasser’s role in making Islam non threatening is failing due to the Islamic community non support of his ideals, which according to the Koran that no one goes against the full teachings of Mohammed. In his book A Battle for the Soul of Islam: An American Muslim Patriot’s Fight to Save His Faith.fails to send that message after reading it.
In Christianity people are able to say where they got a phrase or quote from scripture from the bible’s beginning to end of the book, in Jasser’s book I found no quotes to mark or support Islam when he talks about it, it’s simply his word about Islam. The problem is his glorifying Islam without direct quotes to back up his statements.
If Jasser could simply admit that Islam is violent towards all non Muslims instead of reaching out to the followers asking them to join his crusade to rewrite the Koran and leave out all the violence that Mohammed injected because the people of his time rejected his ideals then perhaps there may be some positive action to Jasser’s ideals.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
What are the dopes in the picture above thinking? Islam can’t be reformed because it by self-definition has no place for moderation. Radical compared to what, Islam? I put Hirsi Ali in this confused group right along with Jasser and the rest. In their case they probably do believe in that Islam can be reformed, but that is confusion, hardly a path to salvation.
patriotliz says
MRM is a futile attempt to put lipstick on a pig…because it’s still a pig..AND,…you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I think the MRM does more harm than good by pretending there is a “Westernized” version of Islam and pretending there is a difference between a “Muslim” and an “Islamist.” Someone also posted that far from being non-Islamic, in fact, ISIS and other radical extremists are the true REFORMERS of Islam…bringing it back to its roots from those who try to water it down. The best thing for those who want a MRM is to become apostates…vote w/ your feet, your hearts and your minds. You have the freedom to do so…so why continue to identify yourself w/ the KKKoran or IslamoNazism or the warmongering, pedophile prophet?
duh swami says
Allah gave Muslims a ‘perfect’ religion,,,anyone who tries to change that is calling Allah a liar…
Warring with Allah and spreading mischief in the land has a penalty…Qutan 5:33…
Geppetto says
So, what’s the punishment for apostasy again? Muslims especially know the answer since it is widely reported, if you know where to look, and the evidence irrefutable. How widespread this fear of being murdered by Muslims, among Muslims, who knows, but it must be a factor in need of consideration.
And what should be done to those Muslims and ex Muslims who seek to “reform” Islam, i.e., make it conform to the concepts of contemporary religious thought? Mr. Jasser, et al, may be on a fools errand but their motives are understandable and commendable, no matter how minuscule their apparent influence to date, and should be applauded. They are one small piece in a very complex puzzle.
John A. Marre says
There’s not much incentive to reform, when anyone who isn’t “Islamic enough” is murdered.
Peter Boardman (Peter the Hermit) says
But Obama said ninety nine point nine percent of Muslims reject radical Islam. Only a mere one million six hundred thousand then to worry about. So that’s allright…
n tesdorf says
To propose reforming Islam, one must presuppose that there is something, anything worthwhile to salvage from Islam. However, a detailed search of the Qur’an, Haddith and Sunna of Mohammed reveals very, very little of any moral worth in the documents. If the ‘reform’ of Islam was based on real moral worth, little would survive except for things from the Meccan period, based largely on the Torah and the Gospel.
A reformed Islam would be based on documents so slight that they would be little more than a pamphlet.
The difficulties of reforming Islam are so great and the reward so little, that the old process of converting Muslims to Christianity looks a far easier and more rewarding process.
Rabbitnexus says
Wow, big surpise. This is only strange if you live in the illusory world where most do, whereby Takfiri idiots like ISIS and those recalctrant, perverted Wahhabis who rely on the West for survival, are actually representantative of Islam. They are not. Be thankful for that.
REFORM is itself a dirty word in Islam, That is not as bad as you may think. EXamples of recent REFORMERS are WAHHABIS themselves who we already rejected but the West resurrected them thanks to col Lawrence of “Arabia” may he burn in hell for it. The Takfiris are a hybrid offspring from Wahhabis and Z!on!sts. They’re not of us, they belong to you which is why they fight us and rely on you for weapons and air support.
Oh and bad luck, many of those “Refugees” are those terrorists you bought and paid for, running away from their losses since Russia turned the tables on them. The actual Syrians are still in Syria, it is the extremists who ended up losing and running away. Back to you.
Rabbitnexus says
OH and the big one, the main label ISIS, DAESH or whatever you wish, Takfiris call themselves is REFORMERS!
So REFORM is one bad way to start and what’s the bet those running this reform campaign are exactly that, Wahhabis? We have Wahhabis as close to government as it gets. Brennan! Huma Abedin! They’re NOT US you fools. They are your puppets, but they are very dangerous puppets I promise you.
D3F1ANT says
LMAO! Islam doesn’t WANT to “reform.” They think they’re in the right, and because the West are such candy-arses the Muzzies are RUNNING THE TABLE! They’re basically untouchable. Nope…until the rest of us begin to REALLY put our foot down…there won’t be any will to reform coming from the Muzzie camp.