“Flanigan, the associate superintendent of Orlando Diocese schools, said ‘the information provided in the sixth grade class is not consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church.’”
But the author of this material is a saint in the Catholic Church, St. John Bosco. So did a saint spread ideas that were “not consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church”? How, then, did he become a saint? Why didn’t his apparently heterodox, disrespectful, hateful teaching on Islam prevent his canonization?
Or is it the “teachings of the Catholic Church” that changed? Since it is Catholic teaching that only divinely revealed dogmas are immutable, if the Church’s teaching on Islam has changed, it must not be divinely revealed dogma, but mere human opinion, from which there can be respectful disagreement, no?
“She pointed to Nostra Aetate, an official Vatican document Pope Paul VI released on Oct. 28, 1965. It stated that the Catholic Church regards Muslims ‘with esteem’ and urged Catholics to work with Muslims for peace and social justice.”
Does the necessity to regard Muslims with esteem require that Catholics must not speak about the elements of Islam that jihadis use to justify violence, including the rampant global persecution of Christians?
About John Bosco’s document, we’re told: “Elsewhere in the text, Muhammad is described as a ‘charlatan,’ ‘villain,’ ‘ignoramus,’ ‘imposter’ and ‘false prophet’ who ‘couldn’t even write’ and ‘propagated his religion, not through miracles or persuasive words, but by military force.’ The Quran, the holy book of Islam, is also called ‘a series of errors, the most enormous ones being against morality and the worship of the true God.’”
This is strong and pejorative language. Where did he get these ideas, that are inconsistent with Catholic teaching in the minds of the leaders of the diocese of Orlando that the teacher who spread this material deserved a reprimand? The Huffington Post, of course, takes it for granted that it is false to claim these things, but there is actually a case to be made that Islam spread through force and that Islamic morality is decisively different from Christian morality. Can there be any discussion of this at all? Or is all dissent from the charge that John Bosco’s claims are false to be punished and silenced?
“Jordan Denari Duffner, a Catholic research fellow at Georgetown University’s Bridge Initiative who studies Islamophobia, said it’s not uncommon for people on some conservative websites to selectively cite centuries-old anti-Muslim texts written by Catholic scholars and saints.”
The Huffington Post doesn’t bother to tell you that the Bridge Initiative is a Saudi-funded endeavor to stigmatize and thereby shut down all critical speech about Islam, which would have the effect of enabling the global jihad to advance without a murmur of protest or resistance. The very word “Islamophobia” is a propaganda term designed to intimidate people into thinking it wrong to oppose jihad terror.
“In the imagined dialogue between a father and his sons, the father explains how Jesus Christ is superior to the Prophet Muhammad…”
Note how the Huffington Post favors Islam. If he were a neutral and evenhanded journalist, Christopher Mathias would write either “Jesus Christ and Muhammad” or “the Lord Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad.” Giving the honorific only to Muhammad is yet another manifestation of the establishment media’s indefatigable imperative to push Islam on the populace and shame people into thinking that they’re bigots and racists for objecting to jihad terror and Sharia oppression.
As for the diocese of Orlando: “Leave them; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:14)
“Teacher Gave 6th-Grade Students Reading That Called Islam ‘Immoral And Corrupting,’” by Christopher Mathias, Huffington Post, April 19, 2017 (thanks to William):
The Catholic diocese of Orlando, Florida, says it has reprimanded a teacher at a Catholic school in the state for giving his sixth-grade religion class an anti-Muslim reading assignment.
Mark Smythe, a religion and social studies teacher at Blessed Trinity Catholic School in Ocala, gave students printouts of a 19th-century Catholic text that refers to Islam as a “monstrous mixture” of faiths. It also calls the doctrines of the Prophet Muhammad “ridiculous, immoral and corrupting.”
“We have spoken to the principal of Blessed Trinity Catholic School, Ocala and to the teacher in question and have reprimanded the teacher for this unfortunate exhibit of disrespect,” Jacquelyn Flanigan, an associate superintendent at the Diocese of Orlando’s Catholic school system, said in a statement.
Flanigan didn’t elaborate on what she meant by “reprimanded.” Smythe did not respond to a request for comment.
A concerned mother with a child in Smythe’s class gave copies of the reading assignment to a friend, who then sent the copies to The Huffington Post through the Documenting Hate project.
“[The mother] shared this with me while she could not stop crying,” the friend wrote.
The reading assignment appears to be an excerpt from an 1853 text about Islam by priest Giovanni Bosco, who later became a saint.
In the imagined dialogue between a father and his sons, the father explains how Jesus Christ is superior to the Prophet Muhammad, who “degrades and dishonors human nature and by placing all happiness in sensual pleasures, reduces man to the level of filthy animals.”
Elsewhere in the text, Muhammad is described as a “charlatan,” “villain,” “ignoramus,” “imposter” and “false prophet” who “couldn’t even write” and “propagated his religion, not through miracles or persuasive words, but by military force.”
The Quran, the holy book of Islam, is also called “a series of errors, the most enormous ones being against morality and the worship of the true God.”
An internet search for Bosco’s take on Islam shows it is primarily referenced on fringe conservative Catholic sites and in the comment sections of anti-Muslim hate sites.
Humeraa and Asad Qamar
Humeraa and Asad Qamar
Leaders within Ocala’s interfaith community said they were shocked and upset to see the reading assignment.
Humeraa Qamar, who is Muslim and whose Muslim daughter once attended Blessed Trinity, emailed the school to say the assignment “caused a lot of distress to the students in [the] class and also understandingly to the Muslim Americans living in Ocala, Fl including our family.”
Rabbi David Kaiman of the Congregation B’nai Israel in Gainesville also emailed the school, writing that the reading was “dangerous and destructive and feeds those who seek to hate vilify,” and that it “expresses a hate language that is disturbing.”
He added that the “tone and factual content is outdated and not reflective of Catholic doctrine,” and pointed to statements from a long succession of popes expressing love and respect for Muslims and the Islamic faith.
“I take pride to quote the words of John Paul II in speaking of Islam in 1985,” Kaiman wrote. “’[There] are the important differences which we can accept with the humility and respect, in mutual tolerance; this is a mystery about which, I am certain, God will one day enlighten us.’”
Flanigan, the associate superintendent of Orlando Diocese schools, said “the information provided in the sixth grade class is not consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church.”
She pointed to Nostra Aetate, an official Vatican document Pope Paul VI released on Oct. 28, 1965. It stated that the Catholic Church regards Muslims “with esteem” and urged Catholics to work with Muslims for peace and social justice.
Jordan Denari Duffner, a Catholic research fellow at Georgetown University’s Bridge Initiative who studies Islamophobia, said it’s not uncommon for people on some conservative websites to selectively cite centuries-old anti-Muslim texts written by Catholic scholars and saints.
“It’s a general trend that I’ve noticed,” she said of people preferring “the particular saints from earlier in church history over the Vatican II’s take on Islam.”
The Vatican II, or The Second Vatican Council, was a meeting of all Catholic bishops in the early 1960s. It ushered in a series of reforms to liberalize and modernize the Church, including a move to more warmly embrace Muslims and Islam.
But a September 2016 survey from the Bridge Initiative found that 30 percent of Catholics in America have unfavorable views of Muslims, with only 14 percent saying they had favorable views. It also found that people “who consume content from Catholic media outlets have more unfavorable views” of Muslims than those who don’t.
Smythe is among a handful of teachers across the country who have been reprimanded over the last year for distributing racist or anti-Muslim reading material to students….
Here’s a rhetorical question: Which is worse, quoting from Christian saints (or Byzantine emperors as Pope Benedict XVI did) who disparage Islam and Mohammed (making factually based arguments that could be subject to refutation were they wrong) or quoting from Islamic scriptures that claim as a divine revelation (not subject to reasoned argument and refutation) the disparagement of the religion of Christians, Jews and all infidels and, for good measure, demand the murder of those infidels who don’t convert to Islam and the end of times genocide of all Jews?
Lucia Bartolisays
I sent messages to both the school AND the diocese of Orlando. I am well-versed and catechized in my Catholicism so I can assure all who read this news item, the teacher is “ON THE MONEY” and the diocese is a politically correct mess. Many like San Diego, Los Angeles, Chicago, NY. DC, and others are sacrificing truth for their MISGUIDED attempts at social justice.
These bishops/cardinals are going to be held to account for the lies and nonsense they are spreading among those who do not know better. This pope, (Francis) is the one who claims to guide but he is, in my not so humble opinion, a danger to the Church. Many of us Catholics eagerly await October and those who are Orthodox Catholics can tell you why. If anyone reading this is being fed a stew of nonsense, just read The Catechism of the Catholic Church, find a traditional priest (usually where you have a Latin Mass or at an Abbey) and learn the truth. Jesuits and most Franciscans are now off the mark. (This was the state of things St. Francis of Assisi came on the scene.–Looks like we’re there again.)
wm schwarzsays
Yes-yes-yes. Sad; very sad. We’re there again. Have spent time in the Middle East. The Muslims hate us, and especially hate the Catholic Church.
Marysays
Good on You! Could you do us the favor of giving out the addresses so we might add to the
support for Mark Symthe.
We all need to do more of this: react politely and FIRMLY to the mis steps our ” leaders” are
making in the face of cultural, secular political correctness !
Pile on everybody! And Pray…for Mark and others of courage.
robytsays
I think that this pope is trying to modernize or reform the Church, on the premises of the II Vatican Council. We cannot deny that the Catholich Church (but not only) had been falling through a very deep crisis during the XX centuries still continueing today. And this, collapse of religoius faith in the modern western world, was predicted by some, like Benson, with his novel “Lord of the World”, as early as the beginning of the XX century. The Church today has not survived in many places of north europe, where masses went empty for so long that many churches been permanently closed or sold. If there are no believers, the Church has no meaning to exist anymore because its salvation mission is failed.
Ecclesia Dei ask the Bishops Conferences to affirm Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite)
Dei must ask the bishops conferences to affirm Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) after clarifying that Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Cushingism or Feeneyism.I refer to the interpretations as Feeneyism and Cushingism.The SSPX and Ecclesia Dei can use other names.Instead of Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) call it Vatican Council II (Pozzo) or Vatican Council II (Lefebvre).Call Vatican Council II ( Cushingite), Vatican Council II (Ratzinger), Vatican Council II (Marx) or Vatican Council II (Kasper).
Choose what you want to call it once you understand the principles.I call it Vatican Council II(F) in honour of the sacrifice of Leonard Feeney of Boston, faced with the magisterial heresy of the Archbishop, Richard Cushing and the pope and cardinals in Rome, during the pontificate of Blessed Pius XII.
The old theology of Feeneyism for me, is based on invisible people not being visible and known in the present times.
The new theology of Cushingism is based on invisible people, people in Heaven, being visible and known in the present times e.g 2017.
The theology depends upon the premise.
Cushingism is a false theology since the premise is irrational.
The premise of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr.Leonard Feeney, was that invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance excluded the baptism of water and were visible- on- earth exceptions, to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation.
It’s premise was that hypothetical cases of an unknown catechumen, who dies before receiving the baptism of water which he desired, was an objectively known exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
So in March 2016 Pope Benedict XVI confirmed this objective heresy in the daily Avvenire.He said that EENS was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.There was a development of the dogma, he said, with Vatican Council II. He was heretically and irrationally referring to a Vatican Council II ( Cushingite).No one objected.No one said that a pope in manifest heresy could not be an emeritus pope.
This is the issue that the pontifical Ecclesia Dei and the Bishops Conferences must clarify.Can Vatican Council II be interpreted with Feeneyism and Cushingism and can the Bishops Conference and Ecclesia Dei choose Feeneyism?
The SSPX must also be clear in rejecting all this doctrinal ambiguity.They should sign a Doctrinal Preamble only affirming Vatican Council II(Pozzo/Lefebvre) and that too, only if the same is done first by Ecclesia Dei and the relevant Bishops Conference.-Lionel Andrades
President Trump did a great job in his state of the union speech, but he got one thing wrong in his message: it is not some perversion of or a “radicalized” version of Islam that is the problem but Islam and the example set by Muhammad is the problem. Until we properly name the problem we cannot solve it. The problem is not some perversion of Islam but Islam itself. Individual Muslims who are not ardent followers of the teachings of the Koran are not the problem at least until a Mosque is established and the Imam begins to read from the Koran and expects everyone to adhere to the teachings of Muhammad. The teachings of Muhammad and the Hadith are violent and barbaric. ISIS can quote chapter and verse from the Koran before it does an atrocity. Islam, not radical Islam, has been the problem since Muhammad met a spirit in a cave that unbalanced him. 1400 hundred years of slaying for Allah and 270 million dead. Muhammad beheaded 600 in one sitting. What does Islam say about Jews? 1. Bukhari (52:177) – Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say.”O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” What does Islam say about Christians? Quran 9:30 “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!” What did Muhammad have to say about terror? “I have been made victorious with terror” The Hadith, collected by Bukhari(4.52.220) Muhammad died relatively young from being poisoned by one of the women he had the upper hand over. When asked why she did it…
The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, “What induced you to do what you have done?” She replied, “You have done to my people what you have done. You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, “If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, “If you are a king we will get rid of you.”
Muhammad made his money by raiding Meccan caravans and subjugating and putting huge taxes on the people he conquered. He is the opposite of Jesus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6st_tFj6ouM&t=130s
mortimersays
The RCC has many Islam and jihad experts WHO ARE NOT BEING CONSULTED or asked their STUDIED, ACCURATE OPINIONS. Tragic.
Pope Frank prefers his own unstudied, SPONTANEOUS, KUMBAYA opinions.
One more chorus of ‘kumbaya’, everyone!
Westmansays
It seems to me, as an Agnostic, that the determining question that the Pope and his Muslim-appeasers must answer is: Was Jesus the Son of God? If the answer is affirmative then either Islam, which vemenently denies this, or, Christianity, is teaching a falsehood and the two religions are completely incompatible on this central issue. How can the Pope paper over such a glaring rejection of Jesus’ Godhood, the center of Catholic salvation and the Sacrament – and claim to be the representative of Christ on Earth? From an outsider’s view of this, the Pope appears be denying Christ as the Son of God. No wonder the Muslim “moderate” propagandists love him – he’s speaking their line.
Robsays
As a Christian I have to say that you have pointed your finger at EXACTLY the problem with the current head of the Catholic Church and his Muslim outreach. Francis doesn’t seem to understand that you can respect people as human beings but not respect their ideas. And by validating Islamic theology and instructing Catholic priests and bishops to do the same, this Pope is leading his Christian followers to perdition. Either Christianity is right and Islam is wrong or visa versa…there is no theological middle ground.
Kephasays
This is why we are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner.
God bless you for your studied, rational, well-researched, and accurate good sense. ~RW.
Oliversays
I THINK ALL OF THE GREATER ORLANDO AREA IS LIVING IN ONE SMALL SEGMENT OF IT.
THE NAME OF THE SEGMENT: FANTASY LAND.
The mother of a student gave the assignment to ” a friend”; and ” was crying”.
I guess the mother would cry even more (well, maybe not, she would be a Clinton suppoorter, and ” THE REFUGEES ARE NOT DANGEROUS, THEY AR EIN DANGER” people, while living in her guarded 650,000 home, ), when her son and/or daughter or both (or other children) are murdered for being infidels.
maghansays
if that mother were a rational person, she would have obtained copies of the Islamic trilogy-the Qur’an, Hadith(Bukhari and Muslim esp.) and the Sira. She would then proceed to study them carefully and making notes as she progressed. She would then proceed to critically read the commentaries on Islam and Muhammad over the centuries, by theologians and secular intellectuals.
Instead, this mother relied on her emotions for a response. She began to weep stupidly. This example explains why the generic Muslim is an individual low in intelligence, weak in knowing how to think critically, and generally lacking in intellectual curiosity.
Not to mention the excessively high rate of inbreeding (common first cousins and incest) and subsequent catastrophic (after 1400 years of same) physical and mental problems. Fact on record, numerous sources — EX: Pakistan, “rat children”, etc. Pray God to rescue these poor undereducated (often illiterate) people for this abomination. ~ RW>
Musalmaanmasalasays
Could not have put it in a better way Maghan. The average muslim is brainwashed into thinking no further than the koran and mohammed. If they think for themselves they are admonished by the imams and condemned for being oversmart to “question the koran and its “infallibility.” Mohammed is another thing that cannot be questioned.
That is why one has riots, murders, arson, and now truck and vehicle killers on the lose at the drop of a koran or a so called “insult” to mohammed and allah.
I thought about this and left this cult before it dragged me to hell.
Frank Verderbersays
That is very sad that local educated Catholic priests and Monseigneurs do not know their Christian Confraternity Doctrine – what is legal and authorized by Roman Catholic teachings, and why some comments by Catholic dignitaries are no more than a Bishop’s belief. I am a protestant who spend some time to understand my Catholic brethren, because I was raised Catholic, and many Catholics including some of my cousins are inept in this area.
Firstly, the Pope’s idea and public letters and discourses are to be considered civilly and thoughtfully, but they are by no means the final authority. The Pope is no more that the titular head of the Church and the Bishop of Rome. Proper Roman Catholic teaching is authorized by convocation of Bishops – from around the globe. Whenever a book or article is submitted which is verifiable R.C teaching, it contains the stamps of approval, which are; “Nihil Obstat” and “Impromator” with the names of two authorized doctors of the church; a sensor and an archbishop.
Secondly, it is true that St. John Bosco is an obscure saint, and one cannot rely on his opinion only, however there are multiple dozens of well-known Catholic prelates [Bishop saints] that gave their denunciation opinion many times, over 1500 years about Islam, and they are regarded as the compendium of experts, which have the blessing and wisdom of the Holy Spirit in this matter. As a protestant, I only need the Bible to figure out who is trying to sell me viral paganism.
Thirdly, among the Catholic scholars and prelates that spoke against Islam are: John of Damascus [750 AD] and his Greco-Catholic experts: Theodor of Abukara; Samonas bishop of Gaza; Bartholomew of Edessa; John Kantakuzenus [formally the Muslim Meletius]; Three patriarchs of Constantinople, and the Roman, Thomas Aquinas, just to name a few. None of them said anything good about Islam and all referred to Mohammed’s religion as antichrist, and virtually pagan! Martin Luther also gave the Muslims a failing grade.
Get a copy of Schaff’s “History of the Christian Church,” Bk. IV to get a primer on this topic. No doubt, the Pope is aware of this, but he chooses politics over the safety of his sheep.
Thanks for such a thoughtful and informative post.
Michael Casmersays
There are still 2 Catholic religious orders in the Catholic Church were founded to protect Christian pilgrims to the holy land. The Trinitarians and the Mercedarians. They were founded in the 13th century. Would there be a need still for these orders if Moslems were peaceful?
gravenimagesays
These orders are still rescuing slaves from Muslim countries, especially in Africa:
“Medieval Religious Order Continues 800 Years of Rescuing Persecuted Christians”
Michael,
After Vatican Council II was interpreted with Cushingism instead of Feeneyism it was thought that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was contradicted by Vatican Council II (C). So there was no need for mission.So the missionary organisation were phased out by the Church.They now follow the Jewish Left one world religions instructions on mission.This can be changed if Vatican Council II is interpreted with Feeneyism.
Kaysays
Thanks for the references Frank.
Clayton Leesays
St. John Bosco may be obscure to you, Mr. Verderber, but he is known to literally millions of people. Books have been written about him. There are many Catholic churches named after him. At my store, we sell two different DVDs concerning his life. Please do a little research before making such claims. Obscure? I think not.
gravenimagesays
Here is my favorite quote from St. John Bosco regarding Islam:
Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle.
Billsays
If it’s not ex cathedra
It can’t be anathema!
Lionel Andradessays
It is in agreement with Vatican Council II( Feeneyite), the Catechism of the Catholic Church(1995) interpreted with Feeneyism and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which has always been Feeneyite.There is no rupture with Tradition. There is a hermeneutic of continuity with St.John Bosco.
Robsays
Thank you so much for your comments! I am a former Protestant Methodist turned Baptist who is also the child of a Catholic mother. Since the casual comment of a Jewish friend (made several years ago) sent me on a mission to learn the truth about Islam, I have expanded my research to learn more about Judaism as well as both Roman and Orthodox Catholicism. Your comments has helped me in my research.
Kephasays
As a Protestant myself, the number of Protestant theologians (even now, but usually in more obscure institutions and derided as **UGH!-fundamentalists!) who know and teach the incompatibility of Islamic and Christian doctrine is myriad. I don’t think they can do anything else, seeing how they take the Bible as inspired by God.
anthonysays
Great information Frank. I am a Catholic and recently I started studying Islam and the Church teaching and I found it troubling when the Church ( Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium article 16 ) teaches that we worship the same God as Muslims, because the concept of salvation in both faiths is totally different. This baffled me and I have not found convincing answer yet. I even argued with my teacher if the Church can be wrong at this point, but no satisfactory answer. Maybe I have to do further study about early Church’s teaching on Islam or maybe somebody can help with an answer.
Good God, Frank, but you’re *ON TARGET* — Grab your protestant jacket this very minute, put it on, and then enter the Roman Catholic Church — I invite you in the name of Jesus. Come!. We need your excellent mind to help us all survive. Clearly, you are already a veteran soldier of Christ. You will never know how much I appreciate your comments. ~RW.
Dannosays
St. John Bosco an “obscure” saint?
Angelsays
St. John Bosco is not considered an obscure saint by Catholics who know their faith well. He is the founder of the Salesians, the fourth largest clerical religious order in the Catholic Church.
Pope Francis and his bishops – as well as several totally stupid rabbis – are more concerned with the plight of MUSLIMS than those of Christians. Not once did Francis mention the mass slaughter of Coptic Christians on Easter Sunday by Muslims BUT he was more upset about the butchery of Shia Muslims in Syria by Sunni Muslims
Under Francis’s watch more Christians have been Murdered Raped Terrorised Plundered and Dispossessed than under any pope in recent history and Francis has been DEAFENINGLY quiet all these years so that he would NOT offend Muslims!
Even more disturbing are his assertions to his followers of 1.2 billions that he could not “find any aggressive verses” in Muhammad’s Quran when any fair minded human being with two brain cells of logic will find at least 100 of them
How Francis and his priests can sleep at night is beyond my comprehension
The teacher should get legal advise and claim compensation that she rightly deserves
IQ al Ibn Q Rassooli
Kafir & Proud!
Oliversays
Many of the stupid rabbis are part of J Street; Rabbis For Peace and related organizations–WHICH ARE SOROS FUNDED AND FRONT GROUPS.
Jews do NOT HAVE A HIERARCHY LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Three main branches, but each Rabbi is basically ( for want of a better way to put it) free to do his own thing. I don’t even know (nor, as far as I know, if anyone has ever checked and published the information- which i doubt, as membership records can be kept private) if any of the Rabbis in rabbis For peace and similar organizations are, in fact rabbis; or merely saying that they are.
Franksays
The teacher was a male (“Mark Smythe, a religion and social studies teacher”), while the pusillanimous bureaucrat was a female (“Jacquelyn Flanigan, an associate superintendent”). Why am I not surprised?
But yes, I agree, he should sue. (They ought to have given him a medal, not a reprimand.)
Robsays
I totally agree with you. The “reprimanded” teacher should be given a medal for courage and honesty. (Incidentally, while not being a Roman Catholic myself, many of my friends and relatives are.)
Barbcvmsays
For hundreds of years multiple popes raised armies to fight Muslims. The crusaders spent years traveling to and from just to get to the Holy Lands. Then they spent years fighting to stop the spread if Islam.
Now this pope treats them like best friends. ? ? ?
The same evil cult over the centuries has now changed itself to being nice.! Islam has not changed any part of its ideology.
You have a *HIGH I.Q.*, AL. Wonderfully said as stated. I would ask but one indulgence (I am Roman Catholic, traditional) — let us agree to give the Pope four rather than merely two brain cells. Why FOUR? Well, one cell is, undoubtedly, for sex. That presumption seems reasonable. A second cell might cover digestion and the circulation of the blood, while a third would seem necessary for skin maintenance, hair growth, and sundry minor organs. The fourth must be a back-up for sex. So, that leaves nothing for tackling ideas and searching out meaningful patterns, something at which most humans must prove moderately good in order to survive. I’ve enjoyed your balanced, deeply informed words on Islam and our paradigm-shifting world today, and your observations in writing and on YouTube — (?) The Jamie Glazov Gang, if I’m not mistaken, and elsewhere. I’m so satisfied, knowing you’re one of the “Good Guys” in the human Family at this point in human history. Thanks multitudes. ~RW.
I agree with your 4 brain cells and THANK you for your appreciation and support
All I need now are 15 minutes with Hannity after which Islam will NEVER recover
Could ALL those who support JW PLEASE Twitter Hannity to interview IQ? After all he interviewed Anjam Chowadry at least twice and he is now in JAIL for being an ‘extremist’ Muslim
Sincerely
IQ al Rassooli
Kafir & Proud!
Mdesatsays
I’m an former catholic who see that the pope is of no value concerning Jesus nor an occult as Islam or its false prophet Muhammad as its the Bible that we should follow and not man
Jeanettesays
In other words, you were not addicted to your religion.
We need more people not addicted – to their religions, to politicians & political parties, to their God-awful children, etc.
In other words – THINK!
Kudos to you for THINKING!
Lionel Andradessays
When Jesus referred to belief and baptism it was in a particular church, a particular community, the Catholic Church
Gyula Benczúr, The Baptism of Vajk (1875)
“He who believes will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” In contrast, Jesus Christ explicitly gives two conditions for salvation: belief and baptism. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). There’s just no getting around those three extra words, and the fact that the Evangelical position ignores that explicit condition for salvation shows it to be in error.
Lionel:
Those words were said in a particular community, a particular church which still exists today. There’s no way of getting around that ! – for evangelicals.
I expect purge or “de-canonization” (dethronement) of many “inconvenient” saints of Catholic faith in short order unless this current trend will be reversed, and soon. They are crazy! I am not knowledgeable in canonic law if such “de-canonization” is even possible, but who knows with this current Pope and all cardinals who elected him “in Holy Spirit”?
simpleton1says
Another important document
Spain’s “reconquista” of 700+ years, was not fast or easy.
Identify the problem, and some of the reasons.
“ A landmark was set by the Christian Chronica Prophetica (883–884), [160 years after the first invasion], a document stressing the Christian and Muslim cultural and religious divide in Iberia and the necessity to drive the Muslims out.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
A definition of the problem and differences, though far from perfect was Chronica Prophetica (883–884)
This is one of the earliest Latin lives of Muhammad. Three other versions that were then circulating have survived, and one other is known to have been kept in the library of the monastery at Leyre in Navarre in 850. The clear intention of the author of this tract, written for a Christian audience, was to denigrate Islam’s founder as a false prophet and a wicked man. Probably it was included in the Chronica to add justification to the war against Córdoba. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronica_Prophetica
though it does have a wiki slant on christianity history.The fact is that the Chronica Prophetica identified and named the ‘enemy’ and where the problem was.
A full translation of “Chronica Prophetica”
Where one can go easily to the heading of “HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD”, (a long paragraph) where there is a summation of just some of the deeds of Muhammad, ending in
Indeed he accomplished many sins of various kinds which are not recorded in this book. [section is like a long paragraph] This much is written so that those reading will understand how much might have been written here. http://pages.pomona.edu/~kbw14747/prophchr.htm
It is the calling out of very much of what Muhammad is about, to name the difference , and in those days it was naturally from an old style Christian perspective.
The problem was named, and despite hitches, politics, it was 600 years, before the job was completed, but always with the knowledge and saying exactly that islam was not compatible with Christianity.
In today’s terms there is no getting around that islam, being in considerable part an ideology, is not compatible with democracy either!
The other major part of our problem is also how to expose the “double think” in our institutions, and through out the general public.
Calling out Mohammad is exposing both “double thinks”
This seems to be one of the guiding beacons in defining the problems of islam, and why it had to be not only resisted but in the end proved it had to be removed from Spain.
It was done in a sense of nationalism, which today is almost forbidden in Europe
Kaysays
Ridiculous. Anyone can read Bosco, just like anyone can read the Koran. It’s just that most people don’t read much.
Really, the Christian way to “esteem” someone isn’t to agree with everything they say or do but rather to let them know of God’s power, love and mercy.
Billsays
Kay, tough to refute such a direct evaluation of the value of truth verses what’s currently popular. Well said!
no_onesays
I am no fan of RCC, but this time I agree with the 19th century saint. I can’t stand mothers like this that cry over nothing at all. She is hysterical and needs counseling. I don’t thing RCC is “The Christian Church”. The real ancient church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. RCC have gone astray long time ago. Still I hope there may be salvation for individuals who live the Gospel and are with RCC.
somehistorysays
Jacquelyn Flanigan….Make like a tree.
Florida would be better off without you and the *mother* who *can’t stop crying.*….evidently a moslim.
In a store a few days ago, a moslim woman in front of me, fully scarved. long sleeves and skirt in nearly 100 degree (Fl) temp…buying a set of children’s pj’s….decorated with Mickey Mouse.
They pick and choose and usually choose to boohoo as *victims* whenever it suits them.
Robert Zarranzsays
The first thing to die in a war is the truth. We are at war with Islam, rather Islam is at war with us. The Catholic church has become and accomplice to the Islamic heresy. May God forgive the leaders ansd give strength to the faithful who rebel
Benedictsays
I am not a saint in the Catholic Church, but I can tell you with great confidence, that Muhammad was in the prophetic world what Florence Foster Jenkins was in the world of opera. But since there are no jokes in Islam Muslims can’t tell a parrot from a prophet. Apparently the Catholic Church is catching up in this respect.
gravenimagesays
At least Florence Foster Jenkins was just murdering arias, Benedict.
The Roman Catholic Church is a travesty of real Christianity. I would not be in the least surprised if Islam and Catholicism merge. Catholicism perpetuates the myth that Allah and the God and Father of Christ are the same. “The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics as they “converted” South Americans. The long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.
Angelsays
Monty, you are absolutely wrong. Ask all the Roman Catholic seminary professors in moral theology you want, clerical or lay, and they will all tell you the notion that “the end justifies any means” is ethically unacceptable and unbiblical. Where do you get your information from? Crazed conspiracy theory fundamentalist sources that are worst than the Soviets when it comes to revisionist history?
gravenimagesays
Monty wrote:
“The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics…the long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.
………………………………
Monty, is this deliberate calumny, or have you just never gotten around to reading what St. Jerome *actually* had to say? And no–it is not long:
Letter 48: “To Pammachius” (393 or 394 A.D.)
“The end justifies the means. But what if there never is an end? All we have is means”.
In other words, Jerome is *completely refuting* the idea that the ends justify the means, and that evil acts are not only not justified if they accomplish something good, but that they rarely accomplish anything good, in any case.
no_onesays
I agree. There is an Orthodox prophecy that in end times even the Orthodox church will not be real and Christians should not go there. Churches will look beautiful, but not a real place of worship. Clergy will deny the resurrection.
Angelsays
There is a difference between the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church vs. those subversive apostate elements that will try to claim the mantle legitimacy and even get away with it in the eyes of the world. Otherwise, Jesus’ promise that he would be with the Church always even to the end of time and Paul’s prophecy that even the elect, if it were possible, would be deceived (clearly implying that the elect would not ultimately be led astray) would be null and void. Denial of the resurrection began with certain Protestant clergy and denominations in the late 19th century. This created the current schism between Evangelical Protestantism with so-called mainline Protestantism. That something so drastic could make serious in roads into Orthodoxy and Catholicism will not happen until the end times. If we are in those times, the children of Light–Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox–will stand together. Idiot fundamentalists who won’t stand with their true brothers and sisters in Christ will be lesser tools of the devil alongside the greater tools, the apostate, counterfeit churches. At this rate, the Anglican communion might be the first to fall (actually, the United Church of Christ may have beat them to it). But even then, there will be true Anglicans who love and serve the One, True God.
no_onesays
I didn’t know that “Christians” deny the resurrection. I don’t think a union between Catholics and Orthodox can happen. Many Orthodox are against it, mostly Russia, some smaller churches and mount Athos. However in the end times Mt. Athos will disappear. I have read such a prophecy too. On the other hand I have seen Catholics that pray with faith and are very nice people. In fact most Catholics I know in person are very nice. Same for Orthodox that are “churched”, i.e. go to church on a regular basis.
Angelsays
Thanks for your response, no_one. You are correct that no true Christian denies the resurrection. However, this heresy is condoned in some denominations even when spouted by clergy. I would also agree with you that uuridical unity between East and West is unlikely before the Second Coming. However, some degree of reconciliation and restoration of spiritual unity has taken place in recent decades, with the majority of Orthodox Patriarchs now on talking terms with the Roman Pontiff. Even the Russian Patriarch engaged in some positive discussions and shows of solidarity with Pope Benedict XVI in joint opposition to hostile secularism and contemporary immorality. Hardly the stuff of subservience to a New World Order!
Angelsays
“juridical”, not “uuridical”
Robsays
Interesting information Angel! Out of curiosity what denominations deny the resurrection? Mormons aren’t Christians so maybe you mean Jehovah’s witnesses?
I agree that the Orthodox & Catholic churches are as close right now as they’ve been since the split.. they are in communion since a decade back I believe and have always agreed on almost everything. Sad that they split.. Christianity may be a lot stronger today if they were united. And the Eastern contingent may serve as a balancing force to the politically correct ecumenical craziness we’ve seen since Vatican II.
Angelsays
Thanks for the response. And, of course, Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses as well as Unitarians are not actually Christian (that’s why the Catholic Church will not re-baptize a Protestant or Eastern Orthodox Christian but requires baptism of converts from the Mormons, J.V.s, and U-Us). Note that I specified apostate “elements” in a number of churches. None of the historic Christian churches officially deny the resurrection. However, there are individual leaders who have, e.g., Bishop Spong of the Protestant Episcopal Church U.S.A. and Bishop Jenkins, the former Anglican Bishop of Durham. If it were not for the vitality and faith of Third World Anglicans, the Anglican communion would probably be dead by now.
Billsays
I like to dwell on the one flock and one shepherd promise from the good shepherd of us all
Robsays
General comments about Protestant, Evangelical and Catholic Christianity.
The words “Protestant” and “Evangelical” are problematical. For example, my father, grand-father and great-grand-father were all well educated “evangelical” ministers of Missionary Alliance or United Brethren churches. These men came from Swiss Mennonite lineage. I became a Missionary Baptist (which has an Anabaptist roots). It is doubtful that any of these groups easily fit into the “main-line Protestant” profile some have described here, but all of them teach the resurrection of Christ.
Having read the “The Watchtower” and frequently argued the nature and person of Christ with Jehovah Witness followers, I have to agree that the Christ based nature of that group is questionable. Likewise, the Mormon church presents a problem with acceptance as a Christian denomination since it elevates to scriptural level an add-on, non-Biblical canon (The Book of Mormon) to which its members must adhere.
Both the ancient Eastern Orthodox and younger Roman Catholic churches teach the resurrection of Christ. And their split was caused less by doctrinal differences than by the insistence of the Roman church on the absolute authority of the Papacy. Most Christians do not realize (and Muslims will not accept) that Christianity is not really a religion of the West (where it found refuge) but is actually A RELIGION OF THE EAST. Christianity was born in the East and rapidly spread there A result of that history was that the organization of the Eastern church more closely resembled the early Church of the disciples than the church structure insisted by Rome. Hence the dispute.
All of Christianity owes much to the Eastern Orthodox church. For centuries the ancient Eastern Orthodox church stood as a wall between Christianity’s development in the West and the crusading Islamic armies which constantly strove to destroy both churches. Where might the world be today if the Roman Catholic church had responded positively when Byzantium and the Eastern church, weakened by unending Islamic attacks and decimated by bouts of plague, unsuccessfully appealed for assistance. Perhaps the magnificent Haggai Sophia, the center of Christianity for a thousand years, would today be echoing Christian prayers instead of the call of the muezzin.
gravenimagesays
Angel, there is no mainstream Protestant denomination that denies the Resurrection.
Angelsays
Note, gravenimage, that I specified apostate _elements_, which is not the same as the whole of any denomination.
Angelsays
I also spoke of certain members of the Protestant clergy. Even though the modernist crisis did split the Protestant world, it is reading too much into what I wrote if you think I was saying it was a clean break. After all, not all orthodox Protestants necessarily felt compelled to join the Fundamentalist movement. The Fundamentalists themselves could not stay intact since it became too sectarian and narrow for the neo-Evangelicals who decided in favor of engagement with the outside world.
Barna Lloydsays
Monty says
April 22, 2017 at 7:12 pm
Monty said, ” . . .. “The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics as they “converted” South Americans. The long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.”
Monty, this is an astounding statement. What is your source? Can you name some reputable scholars or site of learning (Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew, secular) who agree with you?
Don Bosco founded the preventative system of education, based on reason, religion and kindness. Given these criteria, it’s hardly surprising that he detested Islam. What some modern scholars do is to misapply kindness to mean the censoring of any criticism of another culture or religion despite its content, a well-meaning but very anti-intellectual practice. In any case, aren’t we talking about a school here, which is supposed to examine a wide range of ideas, not hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil?
Oliversays
I went to a Catholic University for 3 and a half years.
Many of the priests who taught there. Philosophy and theology mainly would brook no dissent.
This is what this means. End of discussion.
With some if one dared to question something. Not even disagreeing but asking for clarifications or supporting information one risked a reduced grade.
Unlike Judaism which encourages questioning etc. The Catholic University discouraged it.
no_onesays
One shouldn’t pay attention to HuffPoo anyway. It is an islamic apologist site. They have collected a lot of articles under the title “prophet muhammad”. Google it and you will find out. I don’t take them seriously, but many people perhaps do.
Jeanettesays
Liberals are defined by their unwillingness to confront anything they don’t like, or don’t want to believe.
Thus the liberals go to HuffPo to see what they want to believe, and only what they want to believe.
Rachel Gohlmansays
Maybe the language is a bit extreme but for crying out loud, it’s a Catholic school!
Notice that if people were to say the same things about Catholicism, which they do say and perpetuate, it would never be called hate? People shed tears for Islam and rush to defend it but they will rip Catholicism to shreds and belittle those who offend it? “Tolerance” is only for special classes of people. This hypocrisy has to stop!
C Tsays
Any ideology that can’t accept being criticized sometimes is inherently weak. Truly, there would be almost no Sunnis/Shias if 1) all the Muslims knew what was in the ahadith, and 2) all the Muslims were free to choose their own religion/worldview without risk of death/punishment.
She works with the appalling Nathan Lean at the dishonestly named “Bridge Initiative” at Georgetown University’s Saudi-funded “Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding”.
“…a saint in the Catholic Church, St. John Bosco. So did a saint spread ideas that were “not consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church”? How, then, did he become a saint?”
By his service to mankind; he invented http://www.boscoworld.com/
(Let’s stamp out the Hershyan heresy.)
Jeanettesays
Oh, that’s a good one!
Thanks a few moments of levity in the midst of this very serious discussion!
gravenimagesays
Thanks for the laugh, Mark. 🙂
gravenimagesays
Florida: Catholic diocese of Orlando reprimands schoolteacher for quoting saint on Islam
……………………..
More disgusting dhimmitude.
Lionel Andradessays
We don’t have Robert Spencer saying Vatican Council II(Feeneyite) tells us all Muslims are oriented to Hell and so are the Jews. Instead he interprets Vatican Council II with the theology of Cushingism just like the liberal U.S bishops.
dumbledoresarmysays
I shall add St John Bosco’s truthful – indeed, deadly accurate – discussion of islam to my “famous quotes” collection, I think.
gravenimagesays
DDA, please consider adding this quote from him to your files, as well:
“Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle”.
I think that last sums up Islam perfectly.
dumbledoresarmysays
Here’s another astute Catholic, Fr J L Menezes. In his “The Life and Religion of Muhammad” (1912), which was reprinted in 2005 and can probably be got from Amazon for a trifling sum, he writes as follows:
“The Mahommedan religion on the whole with all its dogmatic and moral principles, and with all its positive and negative laws has been a curse to human society.
“Mahommed pretended to confer by his religion a boon, at least on his own countrymen, by giving them in place of gross idolatry a purer faith, and surer moral habits, but in this attempt he has miserably failed and has hopelessly fallen into the very sin he so vehemently assailed.
“Mahommedanism has penetrated into barbarous countries and has forced its inhabitants to accept it as their saving religion, but in doing so it has not succeeded in elevating man’s condition to a higher level – or at least to a level any higher than that of Arabia in Mohammed’s time.
“The Partial and specious reforms which it may have attempted to effect, are vitiated by the fact that they tend to exclude the higher and nobler virtues;
“and as their inner life of families, the whole, the whole tone of society and the intellectual and moral standard of a people depend on the principles of the ruling religion,
“it is hopeless to expect that Islam will ever cease to be what it hitherto proved, the most formidable obstacle to the dawn of a progressive and enlightened civilization.
“How can it be otherwise?
“No permanent house can be built on a foundation of sand; what permanent civilization and progress then can be expected from a people professing a religion founded on fatalism, polygamy and slavery?
“Their blind belief in inevitable fate, and their antagonism to liberty of thought and action have rendered reform next to impossible; and the professors of this religion seem never to realize their obligation and duty towards the people under their rule, of spreading true civilization, good government and the cultivation of the peaceful arts.
“The natural consequence of this ignorance and blindness has been despotism, mal-administration, bigoted persecution and oppression of their co-religionists.
“In the countries of the Mahommedan world
anarchy, rapine, revenge, strife and murder are the order of the day,
thieving, lying, usury and oppression are looked upon more as virtues than vices;
unrestrained licentiousness is carried to unimaginable excess.
“Dirt and filth are things that never come seriously before the attention of Mahommedans;
they seem indeed to prefer living in the most dirty and filthy environment.
“They are generally illiterate and at the same time self-conceited
and their vainglory in their religion and the nothingness of their own acquirements makes them scorn every other religion;
the meager education which they generally receive when young, makes them believe that there is not much left for them to learn in the world.
“In short, Mahommedan countries are the chosen homes of
ignorance, bigotry, tyranny and brutal vice,
and rendezvous for a filthy, unprincipled people, as well as for brigands, felons and freebooters.
“While all other countries not influenced by Islam have made rapid progress in every direction and enjoy the blessings and peace of true civilization,
“Mahommedan countries have remained absolutely opposed to change and reform;
“nay, rapacity and extortion have reduced them to a most deplorable state.
“Such is the boon conferred on human society by the Mahommedan religion, and what a benefactor Mahommed has been to his country!
“Who was pleased to give to his country, nay, to the whole world, a religion which, claiming a divine origin as the final and irrevocable standard of morality, has kept its followers sunk in ignorance and barbarism, and has become an insuperable barrier to the regeneration, civilization and progress of the Eastern world.”
How’s that for a thundering broadside?
And the thing is: it is in fact the plain unvarnished truth. Islam *does* wreak ruin and desolation. Anyone with a gram of commonsense, looking at Mohammed, at the Companions, at the Islamic foundation texts, at their main interpreters right on up to the present day, and at the oceans of blood and mountains of skulls and ruined cities and desertified landscapes that spread wherever Islam has obtained for very long, can see that Fr J L Menezes is not delivering insults: he is ‘telling it as he sees it’.
A thug and a murderer, when *described* as a thug and a murderer, is not being defamed or slandered… he is simply being described for what he *is*.
The same goes for these historic descriptions of Islam, Mohammed, and the sharia-suffused behaviour of Muslims, that are provided by intelligent and well-travelled non-Muslim observers. They are simply telling it like it is.
Kephasays
Yikes. It sounds like what the de-Christianized eastern USA is rapidly becoming!
gravenimagesays
Yes–fine quotes from Fr J L Menezes. Back when good people had no fear of being considered “Islamophaobes”.
dragaozaosays
Catholicism converted to St. Obama´s doctrine. Am I´m catholic… weird life.
ConofChisays
AS a practicing Catholic I despair with our clergy, of ALL ranks (to the very ‘top’. Their ignorance is verging ‘spiritual abuse’!!!
Angelsays
ConofChi, don’t despair. No. 1: Remember Jesus’ promises to his Church and the role of the Holy Spirit until Christ’s return in glory. No. 2: Remember St. Paul’s teaching that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. No. 3: I have been teaching at Catholic seminaries and so I can assure you that a new generation of priests is being raised up that is sure-footed & clear-eyed about the importance of orthodoxy & obedience to the truth and not the least bit impressed by PC-thinking around Islam or anything else. No. 4: In the U.S., there are many bishops in the U.S. still committed to being on the right side in the culture wars and to the great task of evangelization–it’s just that “Francis bishops” (and cardinals) who speak loosely or think sloppily are getting all the press (bad news travels faster than good news).
Jeanettesays
I am not Catholic, but appreciate the encouraging information in your post. Thanks.
Amateur Brain Surgeonsays
Pope St. Gregory VII, quoted in Dom Propser Gueranger’s, “The Liturgical Year.”
“And yet, Gregory was that Father of the Christian world who, from the very commencement of his pontificate, was full of the thought of driving the Mahometans out of Europe, and of delivering the Christians from the yoke of the Saracens. It was the inspiration taken up by his successors, and carried out under the name of the Crusades. In a letter addressed to all the faithful, our Saint thus speaks of the enemy of the Christian name, whom he describes as being at the very gates of Constantinople committing every kind of outrage and cruelty….(writing to King Henry, the Great Pope continues in this vein)…At this moment fifty thousand men are preparing; and, if they can have me to head the expedition as leader and Pontiff, they are willing to march to battle against the enemies of God, and, with divine assistance, to go even to our Lord’s sepulchre.”
Ecumenism is the Universal Solvent of Tradition and it results in such things as Nostra Aetate claiming we worship the same God as do the Mahometans.
But they make it plain they do not worship the same God as do we Christian Catholics
The Catholic church administration are too busy these days scattering their flocks to notice.
The man in Rome,meanwhile, is causing scandal by changing official catholic teachings and is so dumb that he thinks allah(who rejects Christ) is the same as God.
“And all the pope’s horses and all the pope’s men
cannot put the church back together again”
Frank Courtneysays
Old St Bosco sure had it right about depraved Mo.
John A. Marresays
Too bad that some elements in the Church are willingly bowing down in submission to Islam.
Mark Asays
Next thing we know, the Catholic Church will be banning St. Thomas Aquinas because he wasn’t a fan of Islam either.
I find it interesting that Sura 9:29 of the Koran clearly states that all “People of the Book” are to given three basic choices: convert to Islam, accept Islam rule and domination with willing submission and pay the jizya tax to Muslim authorities, or be killed.
But nobody seems particularly concerned by that and I’m sure the Huffington Post (a complete rag in my opinion)t would undoubtedly scream “Islmaophibe” at anyone who raised the issue..
Angelsays
St. Thomas Aquinas was commissioned by the Master General of the Dominican Order to produce a work for countering Islam’s truth claims and to help convert Muslims to Christianity via persuasion. It is the Angelic Doctor’s second most famous work, THE SUMMA CONTRA GENTILES. Important contemporary critiques of Islam by Catholic scholar-priests include Fr. Joseph Kenny, OP (who pointed out that orthodox Muslims were the ones who destroyed Islam’s “Golden Age”) and Fr. Samir Khalil Samir, SJ (an important theological adviser to Pope Benedict XVI on the topic).
Lionel Andradessays
Angel
May 8, 2017
Bishop Athanasius Schneider incoherent and confused
Bishop Athanasius Schneider contradicts himself in the interview he recently gave to a Polish Catholic daily mainstream paper.
Like the SSPX bishops he does not state the obvious, which is, invisible-for-us- baptism of desire is not visible for us. So it is not an explicit exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) as it was known to the 16th century missionaries.
For him it is an exception.
So he contradicts himself in the interview he recently gave to a Polish daily.
He accepts the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston which assumed invisible cases are visible. They are exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Bishop Schneider says ‘There is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church.’ However he is also saying that there are other religions in which non Catholics can be saved and so are saved.
So for him there are known cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.Theologically the bishop is denying the exclusivist ecclesiology of the past. He has adopted the New Theology based on invisible cases being visible.Then he infers that these ‘visible invisible’ cases are relevant and exceptions to EENS.
So for him theoretically there can be non Catholic cultures and civilizations in which a non Catholic can be saved and so these theoretical cases are explicit exceptions in 2017 to the dogma EENS. All do not need to formally enter the Church in 2017 for him.
According to the new theology it may not even be necessary to have explicit faith in Jesus for salvation.So Bishop Robert Barron suggests most people are saved even though they are not in the Catholic Church.
This was the reasoning in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. It was also the reasoning of Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits at Vatican Council II, especially when they composed Nostra Aetate.
So if invisible for us baptism of desire can be an exception to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS, then the Church is saying; the present magisterium is saying ‘There are other religions in which non Catholics are saved and they are saved by the Catholic Church. So every body does not need to be a member of the Catholic Church any more. There is salvation outside the Church.For example invisible for us baptism of desire is known salvation outside the Church. Hypothetical cases of being saved in invincible ignorance are concrete exceptions to the interpretation of the dogma EENS as it was known to the 16th century magisterium ‘.
So theologically the bishop is saying not every one in 2017 needs to formally enter the Church for salvation.He contradicts himself.
He is supported by the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 and 1257 which assumes hypothetical cases are exceptions to the dogma EENS as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century.
This is the New Theology. It is philosophically based on invisible cases being visible, what is hypothetical being defacto known.It is based on philosophical subjectivism which suggests we can decide who are explicit exceptions to the dogma EENS as it was known over the centuries.We can judge.
Archbishop Augustine Di Noia in an interview with Edward Pentin for the National Catholic Register confirmed this. He interpreted Lumen Gentium 8 (elements of sancitification and truth) as referring to known cases among his Protestants friends, who he believed would go to Heaven even though they were not Catholics.He could subjectively judge.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider accepted silently what Pope Benedict said in March 2016.He said the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus is no more like it was in the 16th century.So he is a Cushingite like Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.
Pope Benedict said that there was a development of the dogma with Vatican Council II. He meant that Vatican Council II ( LG 16)etc interpreted with Cushingism contradicted the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This has been accepted by Bishop Schneider.For him too LG 16 refers to objective, explicit, seen in the flesh cases in 2017 who have been saved outside the Church, they have been saved without ‘faith and baptism'(AG 7).The irrational inference is part of Bishop Schneider’s theology too.
So even though he says’ there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself ‘, he means there are exceptions .There are known exceptions for him. Some people do not need to enter the Church for salvation for him. The baptism of water is not necessary for salvation for some people, according to him.Some people do not need to be members of the Church for salvation since they could be saved in invicible ignorance or the baptism of desire…
He does not say ‘there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead and there are no known exceptions in 2017, there cannot be any known exception in 2017. The baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma EENS as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century.There is only the ordinary means of salvation and there is no extra ordinary way. Since we humans cannot know of an extraordinary way of salvation.’
If he said this then he would be coherent.
However he would then be saying that the present magisterium of the two popes has made a factual error.They should have interpreted Vatican Council II and all magisterial documents with Feeneyism( invisible cases are invisible) instead of Cushingism ( invisible cases are physically visible).
He chose not to interpret Vatican Council II with Feeneyism. He does not state that invisible cases cannot be exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc cannot be exceptions to esclusive salvation in the Church.
Vatican Council II cannot be an exception to the old exclusivis ecclesioloy of the Church which he has affirmed in the interview to the Polish paper.
He did not tell the Polish people that there is no development of the dogma as Pope John Paul II also may have wrongly assumed.He did not contradict the statement of Pope Benedict in March 2016.For him there is a development of the dogma EENS with Vatican Council II.Pope John Paul II was not wrong for him.
So theologically Bishop Athansius Schneider contradicts himself. He also interprets Vatican Council II with an irrationality. He is not really affirming the Faith theologically.His reasoning is the same as the liberals and Masons on this issue.He does not find fault with my interpretation of Vatican Council II and nor has he corrected me over the last six or seven years.
He criticizes correctly the subjectivity in Amoris Laeititia.However he uses this same subjectivity to assume there are known cases of the baptism of desire etc.He judges. He infers.He assumes. He presumes.He contradicts.For him there are known exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is a lack of coherence in his otherwise welcome statements.
He opposes subjectivity in moral theology but not in salvation theology.
When he says ‘there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead’, he could mean all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church. This is the liberal theology of Pope Benedict.This is the Rahner-Ratzinger New Theology.
It is an attempt to replace the past ecclesiocentrism with a new theology based on an irrationality. It has worked.Bishop Schneider has falled for it.
The New Theology infers that there are known cases of people saved with the baptism of desire etc and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. So every one does not need to enter the Church as members, but only ‘those who know’.This is a new theology which creates
a new doctrine.It is magisterial.It is not guided by the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit cannot create a theology based on a philosophical error, a factual mistake. The Holy Spirit will not contradict the teachings of the past centuries by violating the Principle of Non Contradiction and causing a split between faith and reason as we have known it throughout the centuries.
So the New Theology creates a new doctrine which says not every one needs to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell but only those who know.
Or, every one needs to enter the Church for salvation except for those in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire and blood.
Or, ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins'(Nicene Creed) and this includes being saved with the ‘seeds of the Word(AG 11), imperfect communion with the church'(UR 3) elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8) etc, all without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
Or, outside the Church there is no salvation but a Protestant can be saved in his religion through Jesus and the Church.
Or, since there is known salvation outside the church every one does not need convert, there could be thousands of people saved outside the Church,may be even most people and it would be known only to God.
Etc, etc,the can of worms has been opened with invisible cases being visible.
-Lionel Andrades http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/bishop-athanasius-schneider-incoherent.html
MAY 7, 2017
There is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead – Bishop Athansius Schneider http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/there-is-no-other-religion-which-saves.html
Kephasays
I’m not surprised. “Mainstream” so-called Presbyterians, Reformed, and Congregationalists jettisoned John Calvin, the Westminster Standards, and Three Forms of Unity ages ago (and anything else that would guard them against pro-Islamism and goddess worship) in order to become “ecumenical”.
This is why I don’t mind belonging to a smaller “sect” that gets called ***UGH!-fundmentalist!
Kephasays
In adult Sunday School, we’ve been going through the prophet Hosea (Osee, to any old-fashioned RC’s out there).
We hit the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I also will forget thy children.” (Hos. 4:6, ASV).
I am sure that what was true back in the 8th century B.C. remains true for the 21st century A.D.
US5564says
At this point, considering all of the informative and accurate postings, is there any question about the Church’s view of islam. This might all be made clear to the “leaders” if they could answer the questiion, just why are there mosques in virtually community in the US (and I guess western civilization as well), but the religion police will arrest anyone openly displaying a rosary in Saudi Arabia? I wait for the first chaple dedicated to the Blessed Virgin to be opened in Mecca.
abadsays
Any figure of authority in the Roman Catholic church and this goes for lay teachers too who claim Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God are dreadfully ignorant.
The teachings of the Catholic church do not line up with the Bible and thus of course not with any true saint. This is just one more example of that. They line up now with anything that is against it, as is evident with this current pope. People always confuse a thing with a name. The early church is not the same as what is called the ‘Catholic church’ today. It is an entirely different creature. That is why they persecute those who do speak the truth.
Lionel Andradessays
The Early Church was the Catholic Church, the Bible is Catholic, the belief in the Trinity is Catholic, the Protestant liturgy come from the pope at the time of Constantine.
The first community of Christians were Catholics. They were the Early Catholic Church.
What about Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, his parents and the whole extended family? Not only were they not Catholics, they were not even Christians. They were born Jews, lived as Jews and died Jews.
Lionel:
The Catholic Church began with Jesus who founded a Church. It continued with the Apostles and the Early Church to the present times. The doctrines of the Church are still the same. The first community of Christians were Catholics. They were the Early Catholic Church.
St.Peter was a Jew and also a Catholic. Our Lady and St.Joseph were also Catholic. John the Baptist was the prophet preparing the way for Jesus and His Mystical Body the Catholic Church.We cannot separate him from Christ.-Lionel Andrades http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/05/the-first-community-of-christians-were.html
Lydiasays
Not to mention the dark ages and persecution of Christians throughout that time including the Reformation. Now they embrace the ‘one world religion’ of all religions combined as one acceptable beast.
patriotlizsays
So I can add St. John Bosco to the other Saints who criticized Islam.
St. Thomas Aquinas:
“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”
St. Manuel II Palaiologos (quoted by Pope Benedict at Regensburg lecture…and where is the real Pope now?):
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman (or “bad and inhumane”), such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
G. Hardysays
We can regard Muslims ‘with esteem’, as they are human beings, and, as such, we are enjoined to love them. We can never, however, esteem their daft and pernicious religion, whatever churchmen tell us. The Catholic Faith can never force us to do so.
Vatican II must be interpreted on this issue as I have above, or else must be ignored.
Saint John Bosco founded the Salesians, pioneered going into Italian slums to save young kids through education and alternatives to crime and despair – he had a Divine gift for healing, took in homeless kids and over 100,000 attended his funeral….these Catholic administrators should drop to their knees and ask for St Bosco’s blessing – period
Djangosays
I think it would serve us well to compare the authority of Paul VI’s little ditty on Islam with the writings of earlier popes and doctors of the Church. As far as this woman crying–what nonsense. I feel like crying for her and all the other misguided people in the diocese who think the current regime of novelty in the Catholic Church is going to last.
By their fruits ye shall know them. What are today’s “fruits” from Islam?
What are the “fruits” of the liberal party-line, Tradition-hating style of Catholicism practiced since the 1960’s?
The only branch of the Church that is bringing in a sizable number of vocations are the Traditionalists. The average Latin Mass parish is packed for most Masses. Homeschooled Catholic children are taught the timeless truths of their faith in an atmosphere where moral relativist administrators can’t label whatever offends them as “hate”.
I frequently visit the Orlando Diocese and this only confirms my perception.
St. John Bosco has good company: In the 14th century, Clement V bemoaned that in Christian lands one hears “the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet”; in the 15th century, Callixtus III denounced Islam as a “diabolical sect.” Pius II warned against Muhammad as a “false prophet,” and Pope Eugene condemned “the abominable sect of Mahomet”; in the 16th century Pope Leo X portrayed the Muslims as replacing the light of salvation with “totally unyielding blindness”; and in the 18th century, Pope Benedict XIV castigated Christians who indirectly promote “the errors of Mohammed” when they take Muslim names in order to avoid taxation and other penalties by Muslim authorities.
Angelsays
Pope Francis breaks ranks with his predecessors and the saints on a regular basis, it seems. He’s not all bad and has done some good, but wisdom and discernment certainly are not his fortes. Perhaps part of the problem is that his own religious Order has capitulated to political correctness (well, not all Jesuits, but most in positions of power and influence apparently have). Be assured that the pendulum will swing the other way in time.
Brendasays
We don’t have time the pendulum has swung it’s last swing.
Angelsays
The pendulum has swung its last swing only if the Second Coming is around the corner. In that case, there is only one more swing because we are talking about permanent victory for righteousness and truth. We should pray that HH Pope Francis gets off the path of being a well-meaning but “useful idiot” for the forces of anti-Christ in the world. It remains to be seen after the godless & bloody French Terror, Napoleon, two World Wars, Nazism, and Communism, how many more anti-Christs will rise and fall before Armageddon is due.
Brendasays
Seems like the priest hit the nail on the head.
Jordan Denari Duffner, a Catholic research fellow at Georgetown University’s Bridge Initiative who studies Islamophobia. since there is no such thing a islamophobia, since these SOB’s will cut off your head under the directive of their satanic leader, it’s not a phobia to be afraid of them.
The Huffington Post doesn’t bother to tell you that the Bridge Initiative is a Saudi-funded endeavor to stigmatize and thereby shut down all critical speech about Islam, which would have the effect of enabling the global jihad to advance without a murmur of protest or resistance. The very word “Islamophobia” is a propaganda term designed to intimidate people into thinking it wrong to oppose jihad terror. Go figure.
Tom Dowlingsays
While I support an opposition to Islam, what is the idea behind using one dogmatic teaching of superstition to denounce another?
Can’t a better argument against Islam be made than invoking the Christian’s imaginary friend in the sky, and the teachings of his enormous cadre of his earthly minions who make a living promoting him?
rabrookssays
“including the rampant global persecution of Christians”
Doesn’t that matter ?
The article and comments are most interesting and it goes without saying that the superintendent of Orlando display a lack of both history and theology that would disqualify him from any academic activity in these areas. The fundamental problem with Islam today is that it has never had an effective reform movement. Christians had theirs in the 16th century at Trent (Protestantism was a revolt not a reform), the Jews had theirs in the 19th century and other major world religions have applied ancient teachings to modern situations. In complete contrast, Islam applies 8th century beliefs in a manner to be implement according to 8th century practices in the 21st century. What is completely mystifying, is that many soft headed westerners are active enablers of this nonsense. The recent election in France shows a deep division in the country which will not likely be healed until this matter is satisfactorily addressed.
Lionel Andradessays
Mark Smythe needs to announce that Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Feeneyism as a theology and it would be in harmony with St.John Bosco.
The school is using irrational Cushingism as a theology which is a deception and lie and legally not permitted in the U.S.A . The school should issue an apology and re-interpret Vatican Council II with rational and traditional Feeneyism.
It is not ethical or Catholic for the administration of the Orlando school to lie.
Charlie in NY says
Here’s a rhetorical question: Which is worse, quoting from Christian saints (or Byzantine emperors as Pope Benedict XVI did) who disparage Islam and Mohammed (making factually based arguments that could be subject to refutation were they wrong) or quoting from Islamic scriptures that claim as a divine revelation (not subject to reasoned argument and refutation) the disparagement of the religion of Christians, Jews and all infidels and, for good measure, demand the murder of those infidels who don’t convert to Islam and the end of times genocide of all Jews?
Lucia Bartoli says
I sent messages to both the school AND the diocese of Orlando. I am well-versed and catechized in my Catholicism so I can assure all who read this news item, the teacher is “ON THE MONEY” and the diocese is a politically correct mess. Many like San Diego, Los Angeles, Chicago, NY. DC, and others are sacrificing truth for their MISGUIDED attempts at social justice.
These bishops/cardinals are going to be held to account for the lies and nonsense they are spreading among those who do not know better. This pope, (Francis) is the one who claims to guide but he is, in my not so humble opinion, a danger to the Church. Many of us Catholics eagerly await October and those who are Orthodox Catholics can tell you why. If anyone reading this is being fed a stew of nonsense, just read The Catechism of the Catholic Church, find a traditional priest (usually where you have a Latin Mass or at an Abbey) and learn the truth. Jesuits and most Franciscans are now off the mark. (This was the state of things St. Francis of Assisi came on the scene.–Looks like we’re there again.)
wm schwarz says
Yes-yes-yes. Sad; very sad. We’re there again. Have spent time in the Middle East. The Muslims hate us, and especially hate the Catholic Church.
Mary says
Good on You! Could you do us the favor of giving out the addresses so we might add to the
support for Mark Symthe.
We all need to do more of this: react politely and FIRMLY to the mis steps our ” leaders” are
making in the face of cultural, secular political correctness !
Pile on everybody! And Pray…for Mark and others of courage.
robyt says
I think that this pope is trying to modernize or reform the Church, on the premises of the II Vatican Council. We cannot deny that the Catholich Church (but not only) had been falling through a very deep crisis during the XX centuries still continueing today. And this, collapse of religoius faith in the modern western world, was predicted by some, like Benson, with his novel “Lord of the World”, as early as the beginning of the XX century. The Church today has not survived in many places of north europe, where masses went empty for so long that many churches been permanently closed or sold. If there are no believers, the Church has no meaning to exist anymore because its salvation mission is failed.
Lionel Andrades says
Vatican Council II says all need to convert into the Church and Catholics are the new people of God, the Chosen People
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/search/label/VATICAN%20COUNCIL%20SAYS
Lionel Andrades says
Lucia.
May 12, 2017
Ecclesia Dei ask the Bishops Conferences to affirm Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite)
Dei must ask the bishops conferences to affirm Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) after clarifying that Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Cushingism or Feeneyism.I refer to the interpretations as Feeneyism and Cushingism.The SSPX and Ecclesia Dei can use other names.Instead of Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) call it Vatican Council II (Pozzo) or Vatican Council II (Lefebvre).Call Vatican Council II ( Cushingite), Vatican Council II (Ratzinger), Vatican Council II (Marx) or Vatican Council II (Kasper).
Choose what you want to call it once you understand the principles.I call it Vatican Council II(F) in honour of the sacrifice of Leonard Feeney of Boston, faced with the magisterial heresy of the Archbishop, Richard Cushing and the pope and cardinals in Rome, during the pontificate of Blessed Pius XII.
The old theology of Feeneyism for me, is based on invisible people not being visible and known in the present times.
The new theology of Cushingism is based on invisible people, people in Heaven, being visible and known in the present times e.g 2017.
The theology depends upon the premise.
Cushingism is a false theology since the premise is irrational.
The premise of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr.Leonard Feeney, was that invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance excluded the baptism of water and were visible- on- earth exceptions, to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation.
It’s premise was that hypothetical cases of an unknown catechumen, who dies before receiving the baptism of water which he desired, was an objectively known exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
So in March 2016 Pope Benedict XVI confirmed this objective heresy in the daily Avvenire.He said that EENS was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.There was a development of the dogma, he said, with Vatican Council II. He was heretically and irrationally referring to a Vatican Council II ( Cushingite).No one objected.No one said that a pope in manifest heresy could not be an emeritus pope.
This is the issue that the pontifical Ecclesia Dei and the Bishops Conferences must clarify.Can Vatican Council II be interpreted with Feeneyism and Cushingism and can the Bishops Conference and Ecclesia Dei choose Feeneyism?
The SSPX must also be clear in rejecting all this doctrinal ambiguity.They should sign a Doctrinal Preamble only affirming Vatican Council II(Pozzo/Lefebvre) and that too, only if the same is done first by Ecclesia Dei and the relevant Bishops Conference.-Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades says
Lucia:
The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus. It is the only Church Jesus founded and outside of this Church there is no salvation: Catechism is exclusivist
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/there-is-no-other-religion-which-saves.html
James Graul says
President Trump did a great job in his state of the union speech, but he got one thing wrong in his message: it is not some perversion of or a “radicalized” version of Islam that is the problem but Islam and the example set by Muhammad is the problem. Until we properly name the problem we cannot solve it. The problem is not some perversion of Islam but Islam itself. Individual Muslims who are not ardent followers of the teachings of the Koran are not the problem at least until a Mosque is established and the Imam begins to read from the Koran and expects everyone to adhere to the teachings of Muhammad. The teachings of Muhammad and the Hadith are violent and barbaric. ISIS can quote chapter and verse from the Koran before it does an atrocity. Islam, not radical Islam, has been the problem since Muhammad met a spirit in a cave that unbalanced him. 1400 hundred years of slaying for Allah and 270 million dead. Muhammad beheaded 600 in one sitting. What does Islam say about Jews? 1. Bukhari (52:177) – Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say.”O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” What does Islam say about Christians? Quran 9:30 “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!” What did Muhammad have to say about terror? “I have been made victorious with terror” The Hadith, collected by Bukhari(4.52.220) Muhammad died relatively young from being poisoned by one of the women he had the upper hand over. When asked why she did it…
The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, “What induced you to do what you have done?” She replied, “You have done to my people what you have done. You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, “If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, “If you are a king we will get rid of you.”
Muhammad made his money by raiding Meccan caravans and subjugating and putting huge taxes on the people he conquered. He is the opposite of Jesus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6st_tFj6ouM&t=130s
mortimer says
The RCC has many Islam and jihad experts WHO ARE NOT BEING CONSULTED or asked their STUDIED, ACCURATE OPINIONS. Tragic.
Pope Frank prefers his own unstudied, SPONTANEOUS, KUMBAYA opinions.
One more chorus of ‘kumbaya’, everyone!
Westman says
It seems to me, as an Agnostic, that the determining question that the Pope and his Muslim-appeasers must answer is: Was Jesus the Son of God? If the answer is affirmative then either Islam, which vemenently denies this, or, Christianity, is teaching a falsehood and the two religions are completely incompatible on this central issue. How can the Pope paper over such a glaring rejection of Jesus’ Godhood, the center of Catholic salvation and the Sacrament – and claim to be the representative of Christ on Earth? From an outsider’s view of this, the Pope appears be denying Christ as the Son of God. No wonder the Muslim “moderate” propagandists love him – he’s speaking their line.
Rob says
As a Christian I have to say that you have pointed your finger at EXACTLY the problem with the current head of the Catholic Church and his Muslim outreach. Francis doesn’t seem to understand that you can respect people as human beings but not respect their ideas. And by validating Islamic theology and instructing Catholic priests and bishops to do the same, this Pope is leading his Christian followers to perdition. Either Christianity is right and Islam is wrong or visa versa…there is no theological middle ground.
Kepha says
This is why we are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner.
Lionel Andrades says
May 10, 2017
U.S bishops do not affirm Vatican Council II( Feeneyite) on Islam and neither do Robert Spencer and Church Militant TV
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/us-bishops-do-not-affirm-vatican.html
Ray W. says
God bless you for your studied, rational, well-researched, and accurate good sense. ~RW.
Oliver says
I THINK ALL OF THE GREATER ORLANDO AREA IS LIVING IN ONE SMALL SEGMENT OF IT.
THE NAME OF THE SEGMENT: FANTASY LAND.
The mother of a student gave the assignment to ” a friend”; and ” was crying”.
I guess the mother would cry even more (well, maybe not, she would be a Clinton suppoorter, and ” THE REFUGEES ARE NOT DANGEROUS, THEY AR EIN DANGER” people, while living in her guarded 650,000 home, ), when her son and/or daughter or both (or other children) are murdered for being infidels.
maghan says
if that mother were a rational person, she would have obtained copies of the Islamic trilogy-the Qur’an, Hadith(Bukhari and Muslim esp.) and the Sira. She would then proceed to study them carefully and making notes as she progressed. She would then proceed to critically read the commentaries on Islam and Muhammad over the centuries, by theologians and secular intellectuals.
Instead, this mother relied on her emotions for a response. She began to weep stupidly. This example explains why the generic Muslim is an individual low in intelligence, weak in knowing how to think critically, and generally lacking in intellectual curiosity.
Ray W. says
Not to mention the excessively high rate of inbreeding (common first cousins and incest) and subsequent catastrophic (after 1400 years of same) physical and mental problems. Fact on record, numerous sources — EX: Pakistan, “rat children”, etc. Pray God to rescue these poor undereducated (often illiterate) people for this abomination. ~ RW>
Musalmaanmasala says
Could not have put it in a better way Maghan. The average muslim is brainwashed into thinking no further than the koran and mohammed. If they think for themselves they are admonished by the imams and condemned for being oversmart to “question the koran and its “infallibility.” Mohammed is another thing that cannot be questioned.
That is why one has riots, murders, arson, and now truck and vehicle killers on the lose at the drop of a koran or a so called “insult” to mohammed and allah.
I thought about this and left this cult before it dragged me to hell.
Frank Verderber says
That is very sad that local educated Catholic priests and Monseigneurs do not know their Christian Confraternity Doctrine – what is legal and authorized by Roman Catholic teachings, and why some comments by Catholic dignitaries are no more than a Bishop’s belief. I am a protestant who spend some time to understand my Catholic brethren, because I was raised Catholic, and many Catholics including some of my cousins are inept in this area.
Firstly, the Pope’s idea and public letters and discourses are to be considered civilly and thoughtfully, but they are by no means the final authority. The Pope is no more that the titular head of the Church and the Bishop of Rome. Proper Roman Catholic teaching is authorized by convocation of Bishops – from around the globe. Whenever a book or article is submitted which is verifiable R.C teaching, it contains the stamps of approval, which are; “Nihil Obstat” and “Impromator” with the names of two authorized doctors of the church; a sensor and an archbishop.
Secondly, it is true that St. John Bosco is an obscure saint, and one cannot rely on his opinion only, however there are multiple dozens of well-known Catholic prelates [Bishop saints] that gave their denunciation opinion many times, over 1500 years about Islam, and they are regarded as the compendium of experts, which have the blessing and wisdom of the Holy Spirit in this matter. As a protestant, I only need the Bible to figure out who is trying to sell me viral paganism.
Thirdly, among the Catholic scholars and prelates that spoke against Islam are: John of Damascus [750 AD] and his Greco-Catholic experts: Theodor of Abukara; Samonas bishop of Gaza; Bartholomew of Edessa; John Kantakuzenus [formally the Muslim Meletius]; Three patriarchs of Constantinople, and the Roman, Thomas Aquinas, just to name a few. None of them said anything good about Islam and all referred to Mohammed’s religion as antichrist, and virtually pagan! Martin Luther also gave the Muslims a failing grade.
Get a copy of Schaff’s “History of the Christian Church,” Bk. IV to get a primer on this topic. No doubt, the Pope is aware of this, but he chooses politics over the safety of his sheep.
Frank Verderber
fjverd333@gmail.com
Arthur says
Thanks for such a thoughtful and informative post.
Michael Casmer says
There are still 2 Catholic religious orders in the Catholic Church were founded to protect Christian pilgrims to the holy land. The Trinitarians and the Mercedarians. They were founded in the 13th century. Would there be a need still for these orders if Moslems were peaceful?
gravenimage says
These orders are still rescuing slaves from Muslim countries, especially in Africa:
“Medieval Religious Order Continues 800 Years of Rescuing Persecuted Christians”
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/medieval-order-of-mercy-continues-to-assist-suffering-christians
Lionel Andrades says
Michael,
After Vatican Council II was interpreted with Cushingism instead of Feeneyism it was thought that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was contradicted by Vatican Council II (C). So there was no need for mission.So the missionary organisation were phased out by the Church.They now follow the Jewish Left one world religions instructions on mission.This can be changed if Vatican Council II is interpreted with Feeneyism.
Kay says
Thanks for the references Frank.
Clayton Lee says
St. John Bosco may be obscure to you, Mr. Verderber, but he is known to literally millions of people. Books have been written about him. There are many Catholic churches named after him. At my store, we sell two different DVDs concerning his life. Please do a little research before making such claims. Obscure? I think not.
gravenimage says
Here is my favorite quote from St. John Bosco regarding Islam:
Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle.
Bill says
If it’s not ex cathedra
It can’t be anathema!
Lionel Andrades says
It is in agreement with Vatican Council II( Feeneyite), the Catechism of the Catholic Church(1995) interpreted with Feeneyism and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which has always been Feeneyite.There is no rupture with Tradition. There is a hermeneutic of continuity with St.John Bosco.
Rob says
Thank you so much for your comments! I am a former Protestant Methodist turned Baptist who is also the child of a Catholic mother. Since the casual comment of a Jewish friend (made several years ago) sent me on a mission to learn the truth about Islam, I have expanded my research to learn more about Judaism as well as both Roman and Orthodox Catholicism. Your comments has helped me in my research.
Kepha says
As a Protestant myself, the number of Protestant theologians (even now, but usually in more obscure institutions and derided as **UGH!-fundamentalists!) who know and teach the incompatibility of Islamic and Christian doctrine is myriad. I don’t think they can do anything else, seeing how they take the Bible as inspired by God.
anthony says
Great information Frank. I am a Catholic and recently I started studying Islam and the Church teaching and I found it troubling when the Church ( Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium article 16 ) teaches that we worship the same God as Muslims, because the concept of salvation in both faiths is totally different. This baffled me and I have not found convincing answer yet. I even argued with my teacher if the Church can be wrong at this point, but no satisfactory answer. Maybe I have to do further study about early Church’s teaching on Islam or maybe somebody can help with an answer.
Lionel Andrades says
Vatican Council II has a continuity with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus but the Angelicum hides this Catholic teaching
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/03/vatican-council-ii-has-continuity-with.html
Ray W. says
Good God, Frank, but you’re *ON TARGET* — Grab your protestant jacket this very minute, put it on, and then enter the Roman Catholic Church — I invite you in the name of Jesus. Come!. We need your excellent mind to help us all survive. Clearly, you are already a veteran soldier of Christ. You will never know how much I appreciate your comments. ~RW.
Danno says
St. John Bosco an “obscure” saint?
Angel says
St. John Bosco is not considered an obscure saint by Catholics who know their faith well. He is the founder of the Salesians, the fourth largest clerical religious order in the Catholic Church.
IQ al Rassooli says
Pope Francis and his bishops – as well as several totally stupid rabbis – are more concerned with the plight of MUSLIMS than those of Christians. Not once did Francis mention the mass slaughter of Coptic Christians on Easter Sunday by Muslims BUT he was more upset about the butchery of Shia Muslims in Syria by Sunni Muslims
Under Francis’s watch more Christians have been Murdered Raped Terrorised Plundered and Dispossessed than under any pope in recent history and Francis has been DEAFENINGLY quiet all these years so that he would NOT offend Muslims!
Even more disturbing are his assertions to his followers of 1.2 billions that he could not “find any aggressive verses” in Muhammad’s Quran when any fair minded human being with two brain cells of logic will find at least 100 of them
How Francis and his priests can sleep at night is beyond my comprehension
The teacher should get legal advise and claim compensation that she rightly deserves
IQ al Ibn Q Rassooli
Kafir & Proud!
Oliver says
Many of the stupid rabbis are part of J Street; Rabbis For Peace and related organizations–WHICH ARE SOROS FUNDED AND FRONT GROUPS.
Jews do NOT HAVE A HIERARCHY LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Three main branches, but each Rabbi is basically ( for want of a better way to put it) free to do his own thing. I don’t even know (nor, as far as I know, if anyone has ever checked and published the information- which i doubt, as membership records can be kept private) if any of the Rabbis in rabbis For peace and similar organizations are, in fact rabbis; or merely saying that they are.
Frank says
The teacher was a male (“Mark Smythe, a religion and social studies teacher”), while the pusillanimous bureaucrat was a female (“Jacquelyn Flanigan, an associate superintendent”). Why am I not surprised?
But yes, I agree, he should sue. (They ought to have given him a medal, not a reprimand.)
Rob says
I totally agree with you. The “reprimanded” teacher should be given a medal for courage and honesty. (Incidentally, while not being a Roman Catholic myself, many of my friends and relatives are.)
Barbcvm says
For hundreds of years multiple popes raised armies to fight Muslims. The crusaders spent years traveling to and from just to get to the Holy Lands. Then they spent years fighting to stop the spread if Islam.
Now this pope treats them like best friends. ? ? ?
The same evil cult over the centuries has now changed itself to being nice.! Islam has not changed any part of its ideology.
Ray W. says
You have a *HIGH I.Q.*, AL. Wonderfully said as stated. I would ask but one indulgence (I am Roman Catholic, traditional) — let us agree to give the Pope four rather than merely two brain cells. Why FOUR? Well, one cell is, undoubtedly, for sex. That presumption seems reasonable. A second cell might cover digestion and the circulation of the blood, while a third would seem necessary for skin maintenance, hair growth, and sundry minor organs. The fourth must be a back-up for sex. So, that leaves nothing for tackling ideas and searching out meaningful patterns, something at which most humans must prove moderately good in order to survive. I’ve enjoyed your balanced, deeply informed words on Islam and our paradigm-shifting world today, and your observations in writing and on YouTube — (?) The Jamie Glazov Gang, if I’m not mistaken, and elsewhere. I’m so satisfied, knowing you’re one of the “Good Guys” in the human Family at this point in human history. Thanks multitudes. ~RW.
IQ al Rassooli says
Ray W
I agree with your 4 brain cells and THANK you for your appreciation and support
All I need now are 15 minutes with Hannity after which Islam will NEVER recover
Could ALL those who support JW PLEASE Twitter Hannity to interview IQ? After all he interviewed Anjam Chowadry at least twice and he is now in JAIL for being an ‘extremist’ Muslim
Sincerely
IQ al Rassooli
Kafir & Proud!
Mdesat says
I’m an former catholic who see that the pope is of no value concerning Jesus nor an occult as Islam or its false prophet Muhammad as its the Bible that we should follow and not man
Jeanette says
In other words, you were not addicted to your religion.
We need more people not addicted – to their religions, to politicians & political parties, to their God-awful children, etc.
In other words – THINK!
Kudos to you for THINKING!
Lionel Andrades says
When Jesus referred to belief and baptism it was in a particular church, a particular community, the Catholic Church
Gyula Benczúr, The Baptism of Vajk (1875)
“He who believes will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” In contrast, Jesus Christ explicitly gives two conditions for salvation: belief and baptism. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). There’s just no getting around those three extra words, and the fact that the Evangelical position ignores that explicit condition for salvation shows it to be in error.
Lionel:
Those words were said in a particular community, a particular church which still exists today. There’s no way of getting around that ! – for evangelicals.
Vatican Council says we really cannot have a reasonable hope that all men are saved : When did Fr.Barron say this ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/vatican-council-says-we-really-cannot.html
The Bible mentions Hell some 18 times. Jesus repeatedly tells us about Hell. How would Balthasar or any one else know otherwise
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/the-bible-mentions-hell-some-18-times.html
Firstly, they are theories.Secondly, being theories they are not exceptions to EENS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/firstly-they-are-theoriessecondly-being.html
-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/when-jesus-referred-to-belief-and.html
Voytek Gagalka says
I expect purge or “de-canonization” (dethronement) of many “inconvenient” saints of Catholic faith in short order unless this current trend will be reversed, and soon. They are crazy! I am not knowledgeable in canonic law if such “de-canonization” is even possible, but who knows with this current Pope and all cardinals who elected him “in Holy Spirit”?
simpleton1 says
Another important document
Spain’s “reconquista” of 700+ years, was not fast or easy.
Identify the problem, and some of the reasons.
A definition of the problem and differences, though far from perfect was Chronica Prophetica (883–884)
though it does have a wiki slant on christianity history.The fact is that the Chronica Prophetica identified and named the ‘enemy’ and where the problem was.
A full translation of “Chronica Prophetica”
Where one can go easily to the heading of “HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD”, (a long paragraph) where there is a summation of just some of the deeds of Muhammad, ending in
It is the calling out of very much of what Muhammad is about, to name the difference , and in those days it was naturally from an old style Christian perspective.
The problem was named, and despite hitches, politics, it was 600 years, before the job was completed, but always with the knowledge and saying exactly that islam was not compatible with Christianity.
In today’s terms there is no getting around that islam, being in considerable part an ideology, is not compatible with democracy either!
The other major part of our problem is also how to expose the “double think” in our institutions, and through out the general public.
Calling out Mohammad is exposing both “double thinks”
This seems to be one of the guiding beacons in defining the problems of islam, and why it had to be not only resisted but in the end proved it had to be removed from Spain.
It was done in a sense of nationalism, which today is almost forbidden in Europe
Kay says
Ridiculous. Anyone can read Bosco, just like anyone can read the Koran. It’s just that most people don’t read much.
Really, the Christian way to “esteem” someone isn’t to agree with everything they say or do but rather to let them know of God’s power, love and mercy.
Bill says
Kay, tough to refute such a direct evaluation of the value of truth verses what’s currently popular. Well said!
no_one says
I am no fan of RCC, but this time I agree with the 19th century saint. I can’t stand mothers like this that cry over nothing at all. She is hysterical and needs counseling. I don’t thing RCC is “The Christian Church”. The real ancient church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. RCC have gone astray long time ago. Still I hope there may be salvation for individuals who live the Gospel and are with RCC.
somehistory says
Jacquelyn Flanigan….Make like a tree.
Florida would be better off without you and the *mother* who *can’t stop crying.*….evidently a moslim.
In a store a few days ago, a moslim woman in front of me, fully scarved. long sleeves and skirt in nearly 100 degree (Fl) temp…buying a set of children’s pj’s….decorated with Mickey Mouse.
They pick and choose and usually choose to boohoo as *victims* whenever it suits them.
Robert Zarranz says
The first thing to die in a war is the truth. We are at war with Islam, rather Islam is at war with us. The Catholic church has become and accomplice to the Islamic heresy. May God forgive the leaders ansd give strength to the faithful who rebel
Benedict says
I am not a saint in the Catholic Church, but I can tell you with great confidence, that Muhammad was in the prophetic world what Florence Foster Jenkins was in the world of opera. But since there are no jokes in Islam Muslims can’t tell a parrot from a prophet. Apparently the Catholic Church is catching up in this respect.
gravenimage says
At least Florence Foster Jenkins was just murdering arias, Benedict.
Monty says
The Roman Catholic Church is a travesty of real Christianity. I would not be in the least surprised if Islam and Catholicism merge. Catholicism perpetuates the myth that Allah and the God and Father of Christ are the same. “The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics as they “converted” South Americans. The long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.
Angel says
Monty, you are absolutely wrong. Ask all the Roman Catholic seminary professors in moral theology you want, clerical or lay, and they will all tell you the notion that “the end justifies any means” is ethically unacceptable and unbiblical. Where do you get your information from? Crazed conspiracy theory fundamentalist sources that are worst than the Soviets when it comes to revisionist history?
gravenimage says
Monty wrote:
“The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics…the long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.
………………………………
Monty, is this deliberate calumny, or have you just never gotten around to reading what St. Jerome *actually* had to say? And no–it is not long:
Letter 48: “To Pammachius” (393 or 394 A.D.)
“The end justifies the means. But what if there never is an end? All we have is means”.
In other words, Jerome is *completely refuting* the idea that the ends justify the means, and that evil acts are not only not justified if they accomplish something good, but that they rarely accomplish anything good, in any case.
no_one says
I agree. There is an Orthodox prophecy that in end times even the Orthodox church will not be real and Christians should not go there. Churches will look beautiful, but not a real place of worship. Clergy will deny the resurrection.
Angel says
There is a difference between the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church vs. those subversive apostate elements that will try to claim the mantle legitimacy and even get away with it in the eyes of the world. Otherwise, Jesus’ promise that he would be with the Church always even to the end of time and Paul’s prophecy that even the elect, if it were possible, would be deceived (clearly implying that the elect would not ultimately be led astray) would be null and void. Denial of the resurrection began with certain Protestant clergy and denominations in the late 19th century. This created the current schism between Evangelical Protestantism with so-called mainline Protestantism. That something so drastic could make serious in roads into Orthodoxy and Catholicism will not happen until the end times. If we are in those times, the children of Light–Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox–will stand together. Idiot fundamentalists who won’t stand with their true brothers and sisters in Christ will be lesser tools of the devil alongside the greater tools, the apostate, counterfeit churches. At this rate, the Anglican communion might be the first to fall (actually, the United Church of Christ may have beat them to it). But even then, there will be true Anglicans who love and serve the One, True God.
no_one says
I didn’t know that “Christians” deny the resurrection. I don’t think a union between Catholics and Orthodox can happen. Many Orthodox are against it, mostly Russia, some smaller churches and mount Athos. However in the end times Mt. Athos will disappear. I have read such a prophecy too. On the other hand I have seen Catholics that pray with faith and are very nice people. In fact most Catholics I know in person are very nice. Same for Orthodox that are “churched”, i.e. go to church on a regular basis.
Angel says
Thanks for your response, no_one. You are correct that no true Christian denies the resurrection. However, this heresy is condoned in some denominations even when spouted by clergy. I would also agree with you that uuridical unity between East and West is unlikely before the Second Coming. However, some degree of reconciliation and restoration of spiritual unity has taken place in recent decades, with the majority of Orthodox Patriarchs now on talking terms with the Roman Pontiff. Even the Russian Patriarch engaged in some positive discussions and shows of solidarity with Pope Benedict XVI in joint opposition to hostile secularism and contemporary immorality. Hardly the stuff of subservience to a New World Order!
Angel says
“juridical”, not “uuridical”
Rob says
Interesting information Angel! Out of curiosity what denominations deny the resurrection? Mormons aren’t Christians so maybe you mean Jehovah’s witnesses?
I agree that the Orthodox & Catholic churches are as close right now as they’ve been since the split.. they are in communion since a decade back I believe and have always agreed on almost everything. Sad that they split.. Christianity may be a lot stronger today if they were united. And the Eastern contingent may serve as a balancing force to the politically correct ecumenical craziness we’ve seen since Vatican II.
Angel says
Thanks for the response. And, of course, Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses as well as Unitarians are not actually Christian (that’s why the Catholic Church will not re-baptize a Protestant or Eastern Orthodox Christian but requires baptism of converts from the Mormons, J.V.s, and U-Us). Note that I specified apostate “elements” in a number of churches. None of the historic Christian churches officially deny the resurrection. However, there are individual leaders who have, e.g., Bishop Spong of the Protestant Episcopal Church U.S.A. and Bishop Jenkins, the former Anglican Bishop of Durham. If it were not for the vitality and faith of Third World Anglicans, the Anglican communion would probably be dead by now.
Bill says
I like to dwell on the one flock and one shepherd promise from the good shepherd of us all
Rob says
General comments about Protestant, Evangelical and Catholic Christianity.
The words “Protestant” and “Evangelical” are problematical. For example, my father, grand-father and great-grand-father were all well educated “evangelical” ministers of Missionary Alliance or United Brethren churches. These men came from Swiss Mennonite lineage. I became a Missionary Baptist (which has an Anabaptist roots). It is doubtful that any of these groups easily fit into the “main-line Protestant” profile some have described here, but all of them teach the resurrection of Christ.
Having read the “The Watchtower” and frequently argued the nature and person of Christ with Jehovah Witness followers, I have to agree that the Christ based nature of that group is questionable. Likewise, the Mormon church presents a problem with acceptance as a Christian denomination since it elevates to scriptural level an add-on, non-Biblical canon (The Book of Mormon) to which its members must adhere.
Both the ancient Eastern Orthodox and younger Roman Catholic churches teach the resurrection of Christ. And their split was caused less by doctrinal differences than by the insistence of the Roman church on the absolute authority of the Papacy. Most Christians do not realize (and Muslims will not accept) that Christianity is not really a religion of the West (where it found refuge) but is actually A RELIGION OF THE EAST. Christianity was born in the East and rapidly spread there A result of that history was that the organization of the Eastern church more closely resembled the early Church of the disciples than the church structure insisted by Rome. Hence the dispute.
All of Christianity owes much to the Eastern Orthodox church. For centuries the ancient Eastern Orthodox church stood as a wall between Christianity’s development in the West and the crusading Islamic armies which constantly strove to destroy both churches. Where might the world be today if the Roman Catholic church had responded positively when Byzantium and the Eastern church, weakened by unending Islamic attacks and decimated by bouts of plague, unsuccessfully appealed for assistance. Perhaps the magnificent Haggai Sophia, the center of Christianity for a thousand years, would today be echoing Christian prayers instead of the call of the muezzin.
gravenimage says
Angel, there is no mainstream Protestant denomination that denies the Resurrection.
Angel says
Note, gravenimage, that I specified apostate _elements_, which is not the same as the whole of any denomination.
Angel says
I also spoke of certain members of the Protestant clergy. Even though the modernist crisis did split the Protestant world, it is reading too much into what I wrote if you think I was saying it was a clean break. After all, not all orthodox Protestants necessarily felt compelled to join the Fundamentalist movement. The Fundamentalists themselves could not stay intact since it became too sectarian and narrow for the neo-Evangelicals who decided in favor of engagement with the outside world.
Barna Lloyd says
Monty says
April 22, 2017 at 7:12 pm
Monty said, ” . . .. “The end justifies the means” was an expression used by the Catholics as they “converted” South Americans. The long version of that saying is attributed to the Catholic Jerome, who translated the bible into Latin, around 390 AD.”
Monty, this is an astounding statement. What is your source? Can you name some reputable scholars or site of learning (Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew, secular) who agree with you?
gravenimage says
Barna, I cover Monty’s errors above:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/04/florida-catholic-diocese-of-orlando-reprimands-school-teacher-for-quoting-saint-on-islam/comment-page-1#comment-1657654
jewdog says
Don Bosco founded the preventative system of education, based on reason, religion and kindness. Given these criteria, it’s hardly surprising that he detested Islam. What some modern scholars do is to misapply kindness to mean the censoring of any criticism of another culture or religion despite its content, a well-meaning but very anti-intellectual practice. In any case, aren’t we talking about a school here, which is supposed to examine a wide range of ideas, not hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil?
Oliver says
I went to a Catholic University for 3 and a half years.
Many of the priests who taught there. Philosophy and theology mainly would brook no dissent.
This is what this means. End of discussion.
With some if one dared to question something. Not even disagreeing but asking for clarifications or supporting information one risked a reduced grade.
Unlike Judaism which encourages questioning etc. The Catholic University discouraged it.
no_one says
One shouldn’t pay attention to HuffPoo anyway. It is an islamic apologist site. They have collected a lot of articles under the title “prophet muhammad”. Google it and you will find out. I don’t take them seriously, but many people perhaps do.
Jeanette says
Liberals are defined by their unwillingness to confront anything they don’t like, or don’t want to believe.
Thus the liberals go to HuffPo to see what they want to believe, and only what they want to believe.
Rachel Gohlman says
Maybe the language is a bit extreme but for crying out loud, it’s a Catholic school!
Notice that if people were to say the same things about Catholicism, which they do say and perpetuate, it would never be called hate? People shed tears for Islam and rush to defend it but they will rip Catholicism to shreds and belittle those who offend it? “Tolerance” is only for special classes of people. This hypocrisy has to stop!
C T says
Any ideology that can’t accept being criticized sometimes is inherently weak. Truly, there would be almost no Sunnis/Shias if 1) all the Muslims knew what was in the ahadith, and 2) all the Muslims were free to choose their own religion/worldview without risk of death/punishment.
Northern Virginiastan says
Isn’t Jordan Denari Duffner the chick who held up a placard saying “I’m a Christian and I love the Quran”?
Jeanette says
No cure for stupid.
gravenimage says
Northern Virginiastan wrote:
Isn’t Jordan Denari Duffner the chick who held up a placard saying “I’m a Christian and I love the Quran”?
………………………
You are quite right, NV–I hadn’t realized this was the same woman. Story here:
“I’m Christian and I LOVE the Qur’an”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/12/im-christian-and-i-love-the-quran
She works with the appalling Nathan Lean at the dishonestly named “Bridge Initiative” at Georgetown University’s Saudi-funded “Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding”.
And here’s the picture:
https://creepingsharia.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/im-christian-and-i-love-the-quran.jpg
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
“…a saint in the Catholic Church, St. John Bosco. So did a saint spread ideas that were “not consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church”? How, then, did he become a saint?”
By his service to mankind; he invented
http://www.boscoworld.com/
(Let’s stamp out the Hershyan heresy.)
Jeanette says
Oh, that’s a good one!
Thanks a few moments of levity in the midst of this very serious discussion!
gravenimage says
Thanks for the laugh, Mark. 🙂
gravenimage says
Florida: Catholic diocese of Orlando reprimands schoolteacher for quoting saint on Islam
……………………..
More disgusting dhimmitude.
Lionel Andrades says
We don’t have Robert Spencer saying Vatican Council II(Feeneyite) tells us all Muslims are oriented to Hell and so are the Jews. Instead he interprets Vatican Council II with the theology of Cushingism just like the liberal U.S bishops.
dumbledoresarmy says
I shall add St John Bosco’s truthful – indeed, deadly accurate – discussion of islam to my “famous quotes” collection, I think.
gravenimage says
DDA, please consider adding this quote from him to your files, as well:
“Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle”.
I think that last sums up Islam perfectly.
dumbledoresarmy says
Here’s another astute Catholic, Fr J L Menezes. In his “The Life and Religion of Muhammad” (1912), which was reprinted in 2005 and can probably be got from Amazon for a trifling sum, he writes as follows:
“The Mahommedan religion on the whole with all its dogmatic and moral principles, and with all its positive and negative laws has been a curse to human society.
“Mahommed pretended to confer by his religion a boon, at least on his own countrymen, by giving them in place of gross idolatry a purer faith, and surer moral habits, but in this attempt he has miserably failed and has hopelessly fallen into the very sin he so vehemently assailed.
“Mahommedanism has penetrated into barbarous countries and has forced its inhabitants to accept it as their saving religion, but in doing so it has not succeeded in elevating man’s condition to a higher level – or at least to a level any higher than that of Arabia in Mohammed’s time.
“The Partial and specious reforms which it may have attempted to effect, are vitiated by the fact that they tend to exclude the higher and nobler virtues;
“and as their inner life of families, the whole, the whole tone of society and the intellectual and moral standard of a people depend on the principles of the ruling religion,
“it is hopeless to expect that Islam will ever cease to be what it hitherto proved, the most formidable obstacle to the dawn of a progressive and enlightened civilization.
“How can it be otherwise?
“No permanent house can be built on a foundation of sand; what permanent civilization and progress then can be expected from a people professing a religion founded on fatalism, polygamy and slavery?
“Their blind belief in inevitable fate, and their antagonism to liberty of thought and action have rendered reform next to impossible; and the professors of this religion seem never to realize their obligation and duty towards the people under their rule, of spreading true civilization, good government and the cultivation of the peaceful arts.
“The natural consequence of this ignorance and blindness has been despotism, mal-administration, bigoted persecution and oppression of their co-religionists.
“In the countries of the Mahommedan world
anarchy, rapine, revenge, strife and murder are the order of the day,
thieving, lying, usury and oppression are looked upon more as virtues than vices;
unrestrained licentiousness is carried to unimaginable excess.
“Dirt and filth are things that never come seriously before the attention of Mahommedans;
they seem indeed to prefer living in the most dirty and filthy environment.
“They are generally illiterate and at the same time self-conceited
and their vainglory in their religion and the nothingness of their own acquirements makes them scorn every other religion;
the meager education which they generally receive when young, makes them believe that there is not much left for them to learn in the world.
“In short, Mahommedan countries are the chosen homes of
ignorance, bigotry, tyranny and brutal vice,
and rendezvous for a filthy, unprincipled people, as well as for brigands, felons and freebooters.
“While all other countries not influenced by Islam have made rapid progress in every direction and enjoy the blessings and peace of true civilization,
“Mahommedan countries have remained absolutely opposed to change and reform;
“nay, rapacity and extortion have reduced them to a most deplorable state.
“Such is the boon conferred on human society by the Mahommedan religion, and what a benefactor Mahommed has been to his country!
“Who was pleased to give to his country, nay, to the whole world, a religion which, claiming a divine origin as the final and irrevocable standard of morality, has kept its followers sunk in ignorance and barbarism, and has become an insuperable barrier to the regeneration, civilization and progress of the Eastern world.”
How’s that for a thundering broadside?
And the thing is: it is in fact the plain unvarnished truth. Islam *does* wreak ruin and desolation. Anyone with a gram of commonsense, looking at Mohammed, at the Companions, at the Islamic foundation texts, at their main interpreters right on up to the present day, and at the oceans of blood and mountains of skulls and ruined cities and desertified landscapes that spread wherever Islam has obtained for very long, can see that Fr J L Menezes is not delivering insults: he is ‘telling it as he sees it’.
A thug and a murderer, when *described* as a thug and a murderer, is not being defamed or slandered… he is simply being described for what he *is*.
The same goes for these historic descriptions of Islam, Mohammed, and the sharia-suffused behaviour of Muslims, that are provided by intelligent and well-travelled non-Muslim observers. They are simply telling it like it is.
Kepha says
Yikes. It sounds like what the de-Christianized eastern USA is rapidly becoming!
gravenimage says
Yes–fine quotes from Fr J L Menezes. Back when good people had no fear of being considered “Islamophaobes”.
dragaozao says
Catholicism converted to St. Obama´s doctrine. Am I´m catholic… weird life.
ConofChi says
AS a practicing Catholic I despair with our clergy, of ALL ranks (to the very ‘top’. Their ignorance is verging ‘spiritual abuse’!!!
Angel says
ConofChi, don’t despair. No. 1: Remember Jesus’ promises to his Church and the role of the Holy Spirit until Christ’s return in glory. No. 2: Remember St. Paul’s teaching that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. No. 3: I have been teaching at Catholic seminaries and so I can assure you that a new generation of priests is being raised up that is sure-footed & clear-eyed about the importance of orthodoxy & obedience to the truth and not the least bit impressed by PC-thinking around Islam or anything else. No. 4: In the U.S., there are many bishops in the U.S. still committed to being on the right side in the culture wars and to the great task of evangelization–it’s just that “Francis bishops” (and cardinals) who speak loosely or think sloppily are getting all the press (bad news travels faster than good news).
Jeanette says
I am not Catholic, but appreciate the encouraging information in your post. Thanks.
Amateur Brain Surgeon says
Pope St. Gregory VII, quoted in Dom Propser Gueranger’s, “The Liturgical Year.”
“And yet, Gregory was that Father of the Christian world who, from the very commencement of his pontificate, was full of the thought of driving the Mahometans out of Europe, and of delivering the Christians from the yoke of the Saracens. It was the inspiration taken up by his successors, and carried out under the name of the Crusades. In a letter addressed to all the faithful, our Saint thus speaks of the enemy of the Christian name, whom he describes as being at the very gates of Constantinople committing every kind of outrage and cruelty….(writing to King Henry, the Great Pope continues in this vein)…At this moment fifty thousand men are preparing; and, if they can have me to head the expedition as leader and Pontiff, they are willing to march to battle against the enemies of God, and, with divine assistance, to go even to our Lord’s sepulchre.”
Ecumenism is the Universal Solvent of Tradition and it results in such things as Nostra Aetate claiming we worship the same God as do the Mahometans.
But they make it plain they do not worship the same God as do we Christian Catholics
http://www.ahlesunnat.biz/main/holyquran109.htm
FYI says
The Catholic church administration are too busy these days scattering their flocks to notice.
The man in Rome,meanwhile, is causing scandal by changing official catholic teachings and is so dumb that he thinks allah(who rejects Christ) is the same as God.
“And all the pope’s horses and all the pope’s men
cannot put the church back together again”
Frank Courtney says
Old St Bosco sure had it right about depraved Mo.
John A. Marre says
Too bad that some elements in the Church are willingly bowing down in submission to Islam.
Mark A says
Next thing we know, the Catholic Church will be banning St. Thomas Aquinas because he wasn’t a fan of Islam either.
I find it interesting that Sura 9:29 of the Koran clearly states that all “People of the Book” are to given three basic choices: convert to Islam, accept Islam rule and domination with willing submission and pay the jizya tax to Muslim authorities, or be killed.
But nobody seems particularly concerned by that and I’m sure the Huffington Post (a complete rag in my opinion)t would undoubtedly scream “Islmaophibe” at anyone who raised the issue..
Angel says
St. Thomas Aquinas was commissioned by the Master General of the Dominican Order to produce a work for countering Islam’s truth claims and to help convert Muslims to Christianity via persuasion. It is the Angelic Doctor’s second most famous work, THE SUMMA CONTRA GENTILES. Important contemporary critiques of Islam by Catholic scholar-priests include Fr. Joseph Kenny, OP (who pointed out that orthodox Muslims were the ones who destroyed Islam’s “Golden Age”) and Fr. Samir Khalil Samir, SJ (an important theological adviser to Pope Benedict XVI on the topic).
Lionel Andrades says
Angel
May 8, 2017
Bishop Athanasius Schneider incoherent and confused
Bishop Athanasius Schneider contradicts himself in the interview he recently gave to a Polish Catholic daily mainstream paper.
Like the SSPX bishops he does not state the obvious, which is, invisible-for-us- baptism of desire is not visible for us. So it is not an explicit exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) as it was known to the 16th century missionaries.
For him it is an exception.
So he contradicts himself in the interview he recently gave to a Polish daily.
He accepts the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston which assumed invisible cases are visible. They are exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Bishop Schneider says ‘There is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church.’ However he is also saying that there are other religions in which non Catholics can be saved and so are saved.
So for him there are known cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.Theologically the bishop is denying the exclusivist ecclesiology of the past. He has adopted the New Theology based on invisible cases being visible.Then he infers that these ‘visible invisible’ cases are relevant and exceptions to EENS.
So for him theoretically there can be non Catholic cultures and civilizations in which a non Catholic can be saved and so these theoretical cases are explicit exceptions in 2017 to the dogma EENS. All do not need to formally enter the Church in 2017 for him.
According to the new theology it may not even be necessary to have explicit faith in Jesus for salvation.So Bishop Robert Barron suggests most people are saved even though they are not in the Catholic Church.
This was the reasoning in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. It was also the reasoning of Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits at Vatican Council II, especially when they composed Nostra Aetate.
So if invisible for us baptism of desire can be an exception to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS, then the Church is saying; the present magisterium is saying ‘There are other religions in which non Catholics are saved and they are saved by the Catholic Church. So every body does not need to be a member of the Catholic Church any more. There is salvation outside the Church.For example invisible for us baptism of desire is known salvation outside the Church. Hypothetical cases of being saved in invincible ignorance are concrete exceptions to the interpretation of the dogma EENS as it was known to the 16th century magisterium ‘.
So theologically the bishop is saying not every one in 2017 needs to formally enter the Church for salvation.He contradicts himself.
He is supported by the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 and 1257 which assumes hypothetical cases are exceptions to the dogma EENS as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century.
This is the New Theology. It is philosophically based on invisible cases being visible, what is hypothetical being defacto known.It is based on philosophical subjectivism which suggests we can decide who are explicit exceptions to the dogma EENS as it was known over the centuries.We can judge.
Archbishop Augustine Di Noia in an interview with Edward Pentin for the National Catholic Register confirmed this. He interpreted Lumen Gentium 8 (elements of sancitification and truth) as referring to known cases among his Protestants friends, who he believed would go to Heaven even though they were not Catholics.He could subjectively judge.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider accepted silently what Pope Benedict said in March 2016.He said the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus is no more like it was in the 16th century.So he is a Cushingite like Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.
Pope Benedict said that there was a development of the dogma with Vatican Council II. He meant that Vatican Council II ( LG 16)etc interpreted with Cushingism contradicted the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This has been accepted by Bishop Schneider.For him too LG 16 refers to objective, explicit, seen in the flesh cases in 2017 who have been saved outside the Church, they have been saved without ‘faith and baptism'(AG 7).The irrational inference is part of Bishop Schneider’s theology too.
So even though he says’ there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself ‘, he means there are exceptions .There are known exceptions for him. Some people do not need to enter the Church for salvation for him. The baptism of water is not necessary for salvation for some people, according to him.Some people do not need to be members of the Church for salvation since they could be saved in invicible ignorance or the baptism of desire…
He does not say ‘there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead and there are no known exceptions in 2017, there cannot be any known exception in 2017. The baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma EENS as it was known to the missionaries in the 16th century.There is only the ordinary means of salvation and there is no extra ordinary way. Since we humans cannot know of an extraordinary way of salvation.’
If he said this then he would be coherent.
However he would then be saying that the present magisterium of the two popes has made a factual error.They should have interpreted Vatican Council II and all magisterial documents with Feeneyism( invisible cases are invisible) instead of Cushingism ( invisible cases are physically visible).
He chose not to interpret Vatican Council II with Feeneyism. He does not state that invisible cases cannot be exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc cannot be exceptions to esclusive salvation in the Church.
Vatican Council II cannot be an exception to the old exclusivis ecclesioloy of the Church which he has affirmed in the interview to the Polish paper.
He did not tell the Polish people that there is no development of the dogma as Pope John Paul II also may have wrongly assumed.He did not contradict the statement of Pope Benedict in March 2016.For him there is a development of the dogma EENS with Vatican Council II.Pope John Paul II was not wrong for him.
So theologically Bishop Athansius Schneider contradicts himself. He also interprets Vatican Council II with an irrationality. He is not really affirming the Faith theologically.His reasoning is the same as the liberals and Masons on this issue.He does not find fault with my interpretation of Vatican Council II and nor has he corrected me over the last six or seven years.
He criticizes correctly the subjectivity in Amoris Laeititia.However he uses this same subjectivity to assume there are known cases of the baptism of desire etc.He judges. He infers.He assumes. He presumes.He contradicts.For him there are known exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is a lack of coherence in his otherwise welcome statements.
He opposes subjectivity in moral theology but not in salvation theology.
When he says ‘there is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead’, he could mean all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church. This is the liberal theology of Pope Benedict.This is the Rahner-Ratzinger New Theology.
It is an attempt to replace the past ecclesiocentrism with a new theology based on an irrationality. It has worked.Bishop Schneider has falled for it.
The New Theology infers that there are known cases of people saved with the baptism of desire etc and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. So every one does not need to enter the Church as members, but only ‘those who know’.This is a new theology which creates
a new doctrine.It is magisterial.It is not guided by the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit cannot create a theology based on a philosophical error, a factual mistake. The Holy Spirit will not contradict the teachings of the past centuries by violating the Principle of Non Contradiction and causing a split between faith and reason as we have known it throughout the centuries.
So the New Theology creates a new doctrine which says not every one needs to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell but only those who know.
Or, every one needs to enter the Church for salvation except for those in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire and blood.
Or, ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins'(Nicene Creed) and this includes being saved with the ‘seeds of the Word(AG 11), imperfect communion with the church'(UR 3) elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8) etc, all without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
Or, outside the Church there is no salvation but a Protestant can be saved in his religion through Jesus and the Church.
Or, since there is known salvation outside the church every one does not need convert, there could be thousands of people saved outside the Church,may be even most people and it would be known only to God.
Etc, etc,the can of worms has been opened with invisible cases being visible.
-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/bishop-athanasius-schneider-incoherent.html
MAY 7, 2017
There is no other religion which saves man, except the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the unique Church of God, because the Church is the living Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is really corporally risen from the dead – Bishop Athansius Schneider
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/there-is-no-other-religion-which-saves.html
Kepha says
I’m not surprised. “Mainstream” so-called Presbyterians, Reformed, and Congregationalists jettisoned John Calvin, the Westminster Standards, and Three Forms of Unity ages ago (and anything else that would guard them against pro-Islamism and goddess worship) in order to become “ecumenical”.
This is why I don’t mind belonging to a smaller “sect” that gets called ***UGH!-fundmentalist!
Kepha says
In adult Sunday School, we’ve been going through the prophet Hosea (Osee, to any old-fashioned RC’s out there).
We hit the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I also will forget thy children.” (Hos. 4:6, ASV).
I am sure that what was true back in the 8th century B.C. remains true for the 21st century A.D.
US5564 says
At this point, considering all of the informative and accurate postings, is there any question about the Church’s view of islam. This might all be made clear to the “leaders” if they could answer the questiion, just why are there mosques in virtually community in the US (and I guess western civilization as well), but the religion police will arrest anyone openly displaying a rosary in Saudi Arabia? I wait for the first chaple dedicated to the Blessed Virgin to be opened in Mecca.
abad says
Any figure of authority in the Roman Catholic church and this goes for lay teachers too who claim Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God are dreadfully ignorant.
James Brady says
According to Abp. Pozzo, head of the Ecclesia Dei Commission in negotiations with SSPX, stated that Nostra Aetate is not doctrinal. The Orlando Archdiocese would do well to know this and thus avoid a legal battle. http://www.onepeterfive.com/abp-pozzo-on-sspx-disputed-vatican-ii-documents-are-non-doctrinal/
Lionel Andrades says
Vatican Council II is in harmony with St.John Bosco and needs to re-interpreted without the Cushingite error.
MAY 3, 2017
The Polish Church and government could interpret magisterial documents with Feeneyism then there would be the ecclesiology of the past with no salvation outside the Church in 2017
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/he-polish-church-and-government-could.html
Lydia says
The teachings of the Catholic church do not line up with the Bible and thus of course not with any true saint. This is just one more example of that. They line up now with anything that is against it, as is evident with this current pope. People always confuse a thing with a name. The early church is not the same as what is called the ‘Catholic church’ today. It is an entirely different creature. That is why they persecute those who do speak the truth.
Lionel Andrades says
The Early Church was the Catholic Church, the Bible is Catholic, the belief in the Trinity is Catholic, the Protestant liturgy come from the pope at the time of Constantine.
The first community of Christians were Catholics. They were the Early Catholic Church.
What about Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, his parents and the whole extended family? Not only were they not Catholics, they were not even Christians. They were born Jews, lived as Jews and died Jews.
Lionel:
The Catholic Church began with Jesus who founded a Church. It continued with the Apostles and the Early Church to the present times. The doctrines of the Church are still the same. The first community of Christians were Catholics. They were the Early Catholic Church.
St.Peter was a Jew and also a Catholic. Our Lady and St.Joseph were also Catholic. John the Baptist was the prophet preparing the way for Jesus and His Mystical Body the Catholic Church.We cannot separate him from Christ.-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/05/the-first-community-of-christians-were.html
Lydia says
Not to mention the dark ages and persecution of Christians throughout that time including the Reformation. Now they embrace the ‘one world religion’ of all religions combined as one acceptable beast.
patriotliz says
So I can add St. John Bosco to the other Saints who criticized Islam.
St. Thomas Aquinas:
“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”
St. Manuel II Palaiologos (quoted by Pope Benedict at Regensburg lecture…and where is the real Pope now?):
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman (or “bad and inhumane”), such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
G. Hardy says
We can regard Muslims ‘with esteem’, as they are human beings, and, as such, we are enjoined to love them. We can never, however, esteem their daft and pernicious religion, whatever churchmen tell us. The Catholic Faith can never force us to do so.
Vatican II must be interpreted on this issue as I have above, or else must be ignored.
Lionel Andrades says
G.Hardy
The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus. It is the only Church Jesus founded and outside of this Church there is no salvation
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/05/the-catholic-church-is-mystical-body-of.html
Tom W says
Saint John Bosco founded the Salesians, pioneered going into Italian slums to save young kids through education and alternatives to crime and despair – he had a Divine gift for healing, took in homeless kids and over 100,000 attended his funeral….these Catholic administrators should drop to their knees and ask for St Bosco’s blessing – period
Django says
I think it would serve us well to compare the authority of Paul VI’s little ditty on Islam with the writings of earlier popes and doctors of the Church. As far as this woman crying–what nonsense. I feel like crying for her and all the other misguided people in the diocese who think the current regime of novelty in the Catholic Church is going to last.
By their fruits ye shall know them. What are today’s “fruits” from Islam?
What are the “fruits” of the liberal party-line, Tradition-hating style of Catholicism practiced since the 1960’s?
The only branch of the Church that is bringing in a sizable number of vocations are the Traditionalists. The average Latin Mass parish is packed for most Masses. Homeschooled Catholic children are taught the timeless truths of their faith in an atmosphere where moral relativist administrators can’t label whatever offends them as “hate”.
I frequently visit the Orlando Diocese and this only confirms my perception.
Howard Kainz says
St. John Bosco has good company: In the 14th century, Clement V bemoaned that in Christian lands one hears “the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet”; in the 15th century, Callixtus III denounced Islam as a “diabolical sect.” Pius II warned against Muhammad as a “false prophet,” and Pope Eugene condemned “the abominable sect of Mahomet”; in the 16th century Pope Leo X portrayed the Muslims as replacing the light of salvation with “totally unyielding blindness”; and in the 18th century, Pope Benedict XIV castigated Christians who indirectly promote “the errors of Mohammed” when they take Muslim names in order to avoid taxation and other penalties by Muslim authorities.
Angel says
Pope Francis breaks ranks with his predecessors and the saints on a regular basis, it seems. He’s not all bad and has done some good, but wisdom and discernment certainly are not his fortes. Perhaps part of the problem is that his own religious Order has capitulated to political correctness (well, not all Jesuits, but most in positions of power and influence apparently have). Be assured that the pendulum will swing the other way in time.
Brenda says
We don’t have time the pendulum has swung it’s last swing.
Angel says
The pendulum has swung its last swing only if the Second Coming is around the corner. In that case, there is only one more swing because we are talking about permanent victory for righteousness and truth. We should pray that HH Pope Francis gets off the path of being a well-meaning but “useful idiot” for the forces of anti-Christ in the world. It remains to be seen after the godless & bloody French Terror, Napoleon, two World Wars, Nazism, and Communism, how many more anti-Christs will rise and fall before Armageddon is due.
Brenda says
Seems like the priest hit the nail on the head.
Jordan Denari Duffner, a Catholic research fellow at Georgetown University’s Bridge Initiative who studies Islamophobia. since there is no such thing a islamophobia, since these SOB’s will cut off your head under the directive of their satanic leader, it’s not a phobia to be afraid of them.
The Huffington Post doesn’t bother to tell you that the Bridge Initiative is a Saudi-funded endeavor to stigmatize and thereby shut down all critical speech about Islam, which would have the effect of enabling the global jihad to advance without a murmur of protest or resistance. The very word “Islamophobia” is a propaganda term designed to intimidate people into thinking it wrong to oppose jihad terror. Go figure.
Tom Dowling says
While I support an opposition to Islam, what is the idea behind using one dogmatic teaching of superstition to denounce another?
Can’t a better argument against Islam be made than invoking the Christian’s imaginary friend in the sky, and the teachings of his enormous cadre of his earthly minions who make a living promoting him?
rabrooks says
“including the rampant global persecution of Christians”
Doesn’t that matter ?
Jeff says
Please support Mark Smythe by liking and sharing this official Facebook page @SupportMarkSmythe
https://www.facebook.com/SupportMarkSmythe/
Donald Link says
The article and comments are most interesting and it goes without saying that the superintendent of Orlando display a lack of both history and theology that would disqualify him from any academic activity in these areas. The fundamental problem with Islam today is that it has never had an effective reform movement. Christians had theirs in the 16th century at Trent (Protestantism was a revolt not a reform), the Jews had theirs in the 19th century and other major world religions have applied ancient teachings to modern situations. In complete contrast, Islam applies 8th century beliefs in a manner to be implement according to 8th century practices in the 21st century. What is completely mystifying, is that many soft headed westerners are active enablers of this nonsense. The recent election in France shows a deep division in the country which will not likely be healed until this matter is satisfactorily addressed.
Lionel Andrades says
Mark Smythe needs to announce that Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Feeneyism as a theology and it would be in harmony with St.John Bosco.
The school is using irrational Cushingism as a theology which is a deception and lie and legally not permitted in the U.S.A . The school should issue an apology and re-interpret Vatican Council II with rational and traditional Feeneyism.
It is not ethical or Catholic for the administration of the Orlando school to lie.
David says
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
John says
More than 10K people sign petition urging Catholic school to retain Mr. Mark Smythe who was reprimanded for quoting Saint John Bosco on Islam. You too can sign the petition here.
https://www.tfpstudentaction.org/petitions/urge-catholic-school-not-to-sack-teacher-for-quoting-saint-john-bosco-on-islam
God bless you.