“An attachment to one’s own values, even if they are lawful in the country of origin, is intolerable when it causes violating the laws of the host country.”
That’s simple common sense, but it is by no means settled. In the U.S., the First Amendment freedom of religion is routinely invoked against attempts to outlaw or restrict the application of Sharia. Some people seem to think that religious freedom gives them a license to break other laws. In reality, it doesn’t. But no one in the political class has the guts to say that.
It’s also noteworthy that the Italian High Casssation Court made this ruling against a Sikh migrant, not a Muslim migrant. It seems as if all the Western world is afraid to confront the latter.
“Cassation rules migrants must conform to local values (2),” ANSA, May 15, 2017 (thanks to Insubria):
(ANSA) – Rome, May 15 – The Italian High Casssation Court on Monday ruled against a Sikh Indian migrant who wanted to carry in public a knife that his religion considers sacred, even though it is against Italian law. The Court said migrants who choose to live in the Western world have an obligation to conform to the values of the society they’ve chosen to settle in, even if its values differ from their own. “An attachment to one’s own values, even if they are lawful in the country of origin, is intolerable when it causes violating the laws of the host country,” the Court said….
berserker says
Easy to rule against Sikhs. They are not going to act “peaceful” like the Mohammedans.
Wellington says
Agreed, but at least it’s a step in the right direction. Personally, though I disagree with Italian law here respecting the right to carry a knife (a gun too for that matter), if one is an immigrant to Italy, then one must abide by Italian law.
If you don’t like the law, then seek measures to change it. Don’t simply violate it and then claim a religious exception—–or any exception. Of course, the smarter Muslims will seek to change Western law gradually in order to accommodate Sharia directives but the proper response to this “effort” is to have Islam, all of it, characterized as a giant negative and thus put it under the greatest legal scrutiny. As opposed to, say, the Amish who have sought in Pennsylvania relaxation of state law respecting how many years children must attend school. Here I have supported this exception, but then the Amish world, unlike the Islamic world, is not a mortal threat to the continued survival of Western Civilization, now is it?
In short, exceptions for a belief system which is a giant negative across the board should be withheld, for reasons of common sense and BECAUSE it is a giant negative. By contrast, exceptions for overall innocuous belief systems that do not seek a radical change in a society as a whole should be considered on a case by case basis. Determining what is iniquitous to society in toto is the key to resolving this “matter.”
Fundamental problem here: Islam is still granted a pass. It should no more be than should Marxism, Neo-Nazism, Satanism, the KKK, NAMBLA, anarchism, nihilism and other true loser ideologies and organizations. Let these stupid ideologies or organizations exist but have no doubt about their inherent iniquity and menace.
Not there yet with Islam. What a damn shame the West still remains in the dark here. But it does.
Michael says
Not entirely in the dark, Wellington. But yes, most of the country is. There appears to be quite a few people who are aware. Some other boards I get on, and read and post comments, i find quite a few people who are keenly aware of just what Islam is.
Not sure who it was awhile ago reminded me of the 100th Monkey Syndrome. Perhaps it’ll take hold here, as Islam is brought up, discussed, roundly and harshly identified and criticized and named for what it is, in hopefully greater numbers.
Wellington says
You provide me with hope, Michael. And I do agree with you that more and more common folk in one Western nation after another are “getting” Islam.
Major problem still remains the elites in the political realm, the media and academia. Herein lies the weakest link against the strongest force against liberty of the West in the history of mankind——-Islam. I thus look forward to the day, which I hope will come (better), when the very mention of Islam will insure as much immediate scorn as the mention of the KKK, Nazism, Marxism, anarchism, et al. Yes, I look forward to this day.
Oliver says
Michael & Wellington–I doubt that it will take hold here. As a Trump supporter, I thought that he really would drain the swap of DC and bring sanity and ( at least a modicum of) integrity.
But, looking -forget McMannis, Mathis, etc.
KUSHNER-HIS SON-IN-LAW. HIS BUSINESS PARTNER(S) INCLUDE GEORGE SOROS.
HIS FIRM DROPPED A PLAN TO GET A CHINESE FIRM TO INVEST IN THE 9 DIGITS IN AN OFFICE SKYSCRAPER IN NYC.
BUT, HIS SISTER, IN A FAMILY FIRM THAT HE “SOLD HIS INTERESTS TO A FAMILY TRUST THAT NEITHER I (J. KUSHNER), MY WIFE OR CHILDREN HAVE AN INTEREST IN” IS (OR PERHAPS THEY LEFT ALREADY) CHINA, TRYING TO GET WEALTHY CHINESE TO PUT AT LEAST $300,000 INTO AN APARTMENT VENTURE; TRYING TO RAISE-ABOUT $150,000,000–offering the “investors” a chance to possibly get a visa ( FOR THOSE WHO INVEST A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY).
The same visas Khan of the Clinton semi-coronation – became famous (or infamous), and that Sen Grassey, (R-Iowa or Idaho-one of the two) said is rife with fraud.
But Kushner denies involvement.
But his sister uses her maiden name (Kushner)- and the appeal WAS NOT TO THE PEASANTS.
Does this not look (or starting to look) a bit like the Clinton Foundation?
AKA PAY TO PLAY
Oliver says
By the way, the LEFT WING ANTI-TRUMP PAPER with the above- THE WALL STREET JOURNAL- (different days-within the past two or so weeks).
JaKo says
Don’t underestimate the Italians. This is the smartest stand against a foreign culture so far; it is an “easy precedent” to be followed against anything in the future: e.g. sharia…
Randy says
We have weak leaders here in America, their only real concern is how much money do they get to put into their pockets. Damn the voters…
RationalVoice says
This was an issue with Sikhs in the UK carrying knives and not wearing motorcycle crash helmets many years ago. I can’t remember the outcome but I don’t see many ride motorcycles with turban alone but not living in London I don’t see that many Sikhs so I am not sure !
Knife carrying in public can be punished by jail in the UK but many young people do “for defence against other young men” as “stop and search” was stopped because of black people protesting !!
I do wish immigrant races would realise they have to obey the laws of host countries !!!
Ann says
They did say migrants. This seems reasonable to most normal people.
Christopher471 says
Why is this even a court ruling? It’s a bit like a court ruling that a Roman Catholic priest must believe in God.
Oliver says
To Christopher– with the current pope- is that a given? (That a RC priest must believe in a Supreme Being?) (Not allah).
St. Manuel II Palaiologos says
lol No, all you need to believe in to be the Pope is peace and love, and you have to be pro-rape-u-gee and pro-Islam.
Jack Holan says
Actually the more I read from Oliver he appears to be a propagandist for CAIR or another group but he’s certainly entitled to express his opinion and we can certainly counter-point. I will say this no one can read into the mind heart and soul of another. Why he’s chosen to pick on Pope Francis whom I profoundly disagree with is most telling. Perhaps Oliver he is the most visible manifestation of Christianity to attack or challenge while invoking the name Allah? Yours attempt in another comment this page was vilifying Trump through his Jewish son in law Kushner being a business partner with Jewish George Soros. Firstly, if he is a partner in some multi-partner project involving tens of mm of $its quite possible through brokers he got into such a project involving 50+ partners not even knowing Soros was a partner. Soros like Warren Buffet has resources invested everywhere and it would be near to possible to invest without investing in shared of a Company he may be a minority owner. You never state the name of this phantom Company Oliver or whether it’s a limited Partnership All these things make a huge difference but may not fit neatly into your agenda
Donald R Laster Jr says
And Islam is not protected by Amendment 1 of the US Constitution. Islam is not a religion but is a theocracy, that is a political system with a religious component. And in fact Islam is prohibited by Article 6 of the US Constitution which prohibits all foreign laws in the US and US controlled areas.
Wellington says
I can assure you that asserting that Islam is not protected by the First Amendment as a religion is a route to Nowheresville in Legalland. Please learn this.
And here is what needs to be learned: Islam is a protected religion under the First Amendment but that does not mean it needs be described as something positive, ditto for Satanism. Please grasp this because pursuing the “Islam is not a religion” argument is a worthless route to pursue.
Doubt me? Well then, forget religion entirely. Here’s why: Marxism and Nazism are also protected under the First Amendment even though both systems would destroy American freedoms if only given the chance. Are you getting any of this?
Donald R Laster Jr says
Islam is not a religion. It is a theocracy and Amendment 1 does not apply to it in the religious portion. Islamics can rant and rave about the theocracy and Shar’iah law but Islam is a violent based theocracy so Amendment 1 provisions of “or the right of the people peaceably to assemble” would be of limited applicability as well.
Michael Copeland says
In Italy Islam is not granted the status of a religion.
Wellington says
For First Amendment purposes here in America, Donald R Laster Jr, Islam is most definitely and easily a religion. Only one ignorant of American constitutional and statutory law would argue otherwise——-as you have. There wouldn’t be one federal judge, at the District, Circuit or Supreme Court level who would rule otherwise
The approach to dealing with Islam in America is not to stupidly and ignorantly maintain it is not a religion. Rather, it is to characterize it as a malevolent religion. Learn, damn it, including the distinction between belief and action.
Donald R Laster Jr says
You are the one ignoring the real nature of Islam. Islam is a THEOCRACY that is a political system with a religious component. The religious component is used to maintain the political component. The religious component is the worship of the god Hubal. The word “Allah” when translated properly means “The god”. The political component is Shar’iah law and the requirements to impose Shar’iah law and the worship of Hubal on everyone. Islam is not protected by Amendment 1 of the US Constitution since it is NOT a religion – even though people have been deceived into thinking it is. That is part of the deception teachings of Islam. So just because people pretend Islam is a religion does not change the real nature of Islam or the fact it is not protected by the US Constitution. Article 6 of the US Constitution prohibits Shar’iah law which is most of what Islam is – the political portion. That is the problem we have today is people don’t understand what Islam.
Jeanette says
Donald R Laster,
I think you are going to have to quote pertinent passages (rather than just referring to them) to avoid invalidating and derisive comments.
Wellington says
You don’t get it, Donald R Laster Jr. Yes Islam has theocratic aspects to it and those that do not comport with the Constitution cannot be implemented but this doesn’t mean Islam is not a religion and can’t be legal in the US. Again, think belief versus action. Not doing so will muddle an assessment, such as yours.
Donald R Laster Jr says
I get it completely. You are trying to avoid what Islam really is. It is a theocracy. Take the time to understand what a theocracy is. The intent to force the worship of Hubal the moon god is what drives the political portion of Islam. A person can worship Hubal and not be Islamic. A person can not be Islamic and not worship Hubal. Islam is a political state rooted in Saudi Arabia and focused on taking over the world and forcing people to worship Hubal. Shar’iah law is PROHIBITED in the US by Article 6 of the US Constitution. Shar’iah law is foreign law. Just Jewish Law, French Law, British Law, and the law of every other country in the world is prohibited in the US. Failure to understand the difference between the two is why Islamics have managed to get a foothold in so many places. Islam is not a religion even though it has a religious component.
Wellington says
You don’t get it completely, Donald R Laster Jr. Not even half so. And I am not in the least trying to avoid what Islam is. For almost ten years here at JW I have never tried to avoid what Islam is. I despise this freedom-crushing, totalitarian religion.
Will you please grasp, once and for all, the distinction between BELIEF and ACTION. Marxism, you know, calls for the violent elimination of the upper and middle classes yet the Communist Party is legal here in the US. Why? Because one can believe, pursuant to the First Amendment, whatever they want to, but this does not mean they necessarily can act upon their beliefs. Ditto for Islam. For the KKK. For the Aryan Nation. For Neo-Nazis. Et al.
I GET that Islam is a theocracy, as you have stated, BUT as long as this doesn’t try to be implemented the belief, the desire, in wanting such a theocracy, which I’m certain both you and I detest, does not violate the Constitution. I convey this to you as the lawyer that I am and I must tell you that people like yourself who know little about American law, but opine so much about it, only impede a proper approach to dealing with Islam, which is to have it legal in the US but 1) described as a giant negative of a belief system; and 2) put on notice that many of the things Islam wants, ditto for Marxism and Nazism, it will never get.
Please learn this and quit making a fool out of yourself. So far, you have proved to me that a little knowledge is indeed a bad thing.
Donald R Laster Jr says
Islamics are working to force Shar’iah law on the US as the supreme law of the land. Just look at what the Islamics have tried in Texas and other places where they try to force Shar’iah law to used claiming it is needed due to their religious system. Using the claim of it being a religion is part of the Taqiyyah and Kitman practices (deceptions) to get people to accept Islam’s Shar’iah law.
What you seen to be refusing to understand is that Islamics are working force their theocracy on every place in the world. Amendment 1 does not allow people to force their religion or theocracy on the US. It is not protected. In fact, Amendment 1 prohibits the creation of a Federal version of the Church of England. There is a big difference between Socialism (all variants) and Islam.
Islam is basically a disembody country working to impose itself on the world. You should take a closer look at the actual text of the US Constitution. Any person working to impose foreign law, which is what Shar’iah law is, on the US who is a US citizen is engaged in treason since Shar’iah law, and therefore Islam, is incompatible with the US Constitution. All of the aspects of the issues related to Islam have to be addressed.
Wellington says
I am NOT refusing to understand that Muslims are working to supplant the US Constitution with Islamic law. I GET THIS!
But will you please get the distinction between belief and action which I have mentioned several times to you. Marxism too, you know, would destroy the US Constitution if only given the chance but yet the Communist Party is legal here in the US. Gettin’ my drift?
No, of course you aren’t. You are forever, la, la, la, on one note about Article 6 of the Constitution. And you will be until you grasp the distinction between belief and action.
Let me give you another example, not that it will probably do much good. The North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is a profoundly disgusting organization. It seeks to legitimize sexual relation between men and boys. YET it is legal as far as expressing this belief. It is illegal to the extent that it tries to implement this belief.
My God man, Robert Spencer himself has said he doesn’t seek to make Islam illegal in America, “only” that it be described accurately. I’m with Robert Spencer here. You are not and continue to demonstrate an enormous ignorance of American constitutional and statutory law.
This is my last communication to you since you seem determined to never learn. Done here.
Donald R Laster Jr says
I am not the one refusing to learn. Look at ALL of what encompasses Islam. You are trying to divide Islam into pieces and are ignoring what Islam actually is. NAMBLA is not trying to overthrow and replace the US Constitution. For all of NAMBLA’s depravities they are working within the existing legal structure to get their BEHAVIOR allowed under the EXISTING legal system. Islam is working to supplant the existing legal structure and replace it with Islam’s legal system – Shar’iah law. Note the difference between the two modes of operation and the actual end results.
Shar’iah law is foreign law and the use of ALL foreign law is prohibited by Article 6 of the US Constitution. Islamics are not trying to change the US Constitution, they are trying eliminate it. If the Catholic Church tried to impose its legal system in use at the Vatican it would be doing the same thing as Islam. The Catholic Church in the 700s to 1500s was in fact a theocracy – it actually ruled Italy and sections of Italy for several centuries and it is still partially a theocracy. You are refusing to look at the whole picture and as a result fail to understand what Islam actually is as well as its actual objectives. And if Robert Spencer thinks like you do he is falling into the same trap. Islam is an invading force working through any means possible, to take over countries and replace the government and legal system with Islam’s governmental system and laws (Shar’iah law). And when that is resisted Islam’s army of infiltrators are activated – that is the terrorist operating from the center of invasions – Mosques, or as Islam has done since the 600/700s actually invade and take over.
I know exactly what the US Constitution says and what the law states. You, like so many people, fail to understand what Islam actually is. You have not look behind the curtain and understood the real nature of Islam – an active invading force that operates with its own laws and legal system that pretends to co-exist with the existing society’s government and laws. There is 1400 years of real history to show this fact. Look at the actual history at how Islam has taken over countries – especially North Africa and then look at how Islam is operating in Europe today. Look at how the Cherokee, Navajo, and other Indian nations lost most of their sovereignty. Look at how the Byzantine Empire became the Ottoman Empire. Look at the actual historical patterns.
The Islamic theocracy has not changed its operating procedure in the 1400 years since Mohammad’s lies about his god Hubal were rejected by Jews, Christians and the people of Arabia who also worshiped Hubal and the other 359 gods of the Arabic pantheon of gods. I am not the one refusing to learn or does not understand the US Constitution and laws. Like Europe, the US is being invaded. The invasion is just subtle so people don’t understand what is happening until it is too late.
gravenimage says
Certainly, a Muslim is free to practice his religion as long as it involves prayer, Wudu, fasting, and going on the Hadj.
If it involves marrying under-aged girls, imposing Shari’ah law, raping Infidels, and slaughtering unbelievers–all orthodox aspects of Islam–then no accommodations should be made to this or any other creed.
Donald R Laster Jr says
And Islam’s Shar’iah law is prohibited in the US and US territories by Article 6 of the US Constitution. Any attempt to use Shar’iah law or impose Islam is basically a crime and could be considered treason since it constitutes waging war on the US.
Wellington says
Well, Donald R Laster Jr, any attempt to implement certain belief portions of Marxism or Nazism would also run afoul of the Constitution but this doesn’t add up to Marxism or Nazism being illegal or prohibited in America for constitutional purposes. Again, learn the distinction between belief and action. The former is virtually sacrosanct under the Constitution. The latter not necessarily so.
People like you, ignorant as you are of constitutional law, impede dealing effectively with the heinous religion which is Islam and do not aid in efficaciously thwarting it. Got that?
Your approach is a waste of time and even a hindrance. Get this.
mousey says
donald, this came up in texas couple years ago, city of irving. They freaked out that muslims there were starting up their own sharia court… so they passed a law, barely passed, that foreign law could not take precedence over u.s. law. –weird since it’s in the constitution, and the muslims tried their best to stop the law from passing.
Donald R Laster Jr says
This is why people need to understand that Islam is not a religion but a theocracy. There is a difference and it is significant.
gravenimage says
Donald, Wellington understands Islam inside and out.
He also understands American law. He is not just a lawyer, he has also taught law at the university lever for decades.
His point is that it is not a fruitful line to claim that Islam is a theocracy and not a religion–an odd claim to make, in any case, since a theocracy is the imposition of government by a religion.
And even if Islam were somehow declared a “non-religion”–which we have no mechanism for–it would still, as Wellington notes, have the same safeguards as any other creed, philosophy, or belief system, such as Nazism or Communism–that is, that it is legal to hold these ideas, just not impose them on others.
Shari’ah law *is* illegal wherever it clashes with our own civilized laws.
Donald R Laster Jr says
I understand where he is coming from and he is making the same mistake so many people make in relation to Islam. A theocracy is a government with a religious component where the government is controlled by the religion. It is not a religion but a government. Part of the purpose of Islamic government system is to force people to worship Hubal, the moon god who is known as Baal historically. Simply calling it a religion hides a major component and allows Islamics to continue their deception about the actual intent of Islam. It also helps to hides the fact that under the laws of Islam Islamics are not bound to obey the laws of the places they occupy. Their government is supreme in their views and teaching.
National Socialism, and even International Socialism, typically operate within the existing governmental system – at least until it takes over. In fact, Germany still has laws on the books from the National Socialist days, as well as laws from before the National Socialist days. Consider this quote by Josef Goebbels:
“When democracy granted democratic methods to us in times of opposition, this
was bound to happen in a democratic system. However, we National Socialists
never asserted that we represented a democratic point of view, but we have
declared openly that we used the democratic methods only to gain power and
that, after assuming the power, we would deny to our adversaries without any
consideration the means which were granted to us in times of our opposition.”
Islamics have been doing the same thing to invade and take over countries. But once they get enough of their Army of followers into the country they start attacking directly – look at what is going on in Europe. Calling it simply a religion ignores what Islam is about. We have 1400 years of history showing it is government and not a religion. An actual religion operates differently. Even the Roman Catholic Church is, or was a, theocracy. The difference is it is not attempting to overthrow the government of countries where it has a presence.
It is ignoring the reality that has created the problems we have with Islam and continuing to repeat it prevents the problems from being dealt with. Article 6 of the US Constitution prohibits the use of all foreign law. Which means Shar’iah law is prohibited by the US Constitution. Wellington want to ignore what Islam really is. He looks at the religious component and ignores the government portion and what it is about. When people understand what Islam really is then what they see happening is understandable and the fact the deviant and abnormal behaviors are not an aberration. But are in fact allowed by the laws of Islam.
Look at what is currently going on in Turkey. The Islamics have gotten back into power and are working to change the government imposed in the early 1900s with an Islamic government. The Islamics are trying to do the same in Syria, Afghanistan, Egypt, and Europe. We are not dealing with a religion but a governmental system that INVOLVES the worship of a god that is supposed to have given a set of laws.
Santa Voorhees says
Glad to hear that there is still some sanity left in my country. Hopefully the rule will be applied to all, including muslims.
gravenimage says
Agreed.
Voytek Gagalka says
Why the west, under the mask of “diversity,” allows to build mosques on its shores and is silent about laws prohibiting building churches, say in Saudi Arabia?
Donald R Laster Jr says
And as others have pointed out the Italians have to make sure the Courts apply the law to the Islamics.
gravenimage says
Italian court rules that migrants must conform to values of their new country
…………………….
*Good*.
Georg says
Our legal and de facto exceptions made for religion are the weapon of Islam in cutting apart our society from within. When bad logic is sanctified bad things result. Stupidity will always have its price and we’re paying for ours.
Pere LaChaise says
How ironic that the Sikh custom of obligatory arms has its origin in communal defense from moslem depredation!
I’m glad the Italian court stands on principle of the supremacy of Italian law over foreign pious custom which is corrosive of Italian legal and social order. This is a culturally neutral ruling that establishes a precedent without specific reference to Islam and thus will be able to withstand attacks on its constitutionality since it is not promulgated in a way that can be described as prejudicial against moslems.
Ciudadano says
Sorry but the relevant part of this ruling is “carrying weapons and objects aimed at injury”. The part regarding “migrants who choose to live in the Western world have an obligation to conform to the values of the society they’ve chosen to settle” is just decorative BS.
BLC says
If Islam were only a religion, saying that they were discriminated against on the grounds of religion might be acceptable. However, a lot of Islam is political and I don’t think there is any law against discriminating against people on the basis of political persuasion. Why not draw a line in the sand with Islam and say that we won’t discriminate against them on the basis of religion, but when they want Sharia law enforced, that’s getting political and we won’t stand for it.
Creole Gumbo says
Islam’s use of religion as an excuse to break our laws is the very reason that we either need to legally define what constitutes a religion or give no tax breaks or other preferences to any so called religion. The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers.
Don Foss says
Or what? Let me go out on a limb: Nothing.
Myron J. Poltroonian says
Finally! “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” What a simple concept, completely undermined by the “Politically Correct Progressive Elites” in the West.
UNCLE VLADDI says
Canada is taking the exact opposite approach, endorsing racist legislation to demand that people who come from alleged CRIME-CULTURES have their “cultural rights” to commit their holy crimes against us, protected in future by our own laws!!!
(In stead of, you know, educating them that their crime-culture is WRONG and won’t be tolerated under our one law endorsing only equal human rights for all citizens).
Because that would have made sense, and their motto is, as ever:
“THERE’S NO MONEY IN SOLUTIONS!”
(So Please Give Generously – AGAIN)!
See?
http://unclevladdi.blogspot.ca/2017/04/ontario-gov-wants-to-make-all-black.html