A single felony weapons charge for “a loaded AK-47, another rifle, a handgun, a grenade, large amounts of ammunition, and what would later be identified as bomb-making materials, including a drone.”
“However, criminal defense attorney Joe Tamburino, who is not affiliated with the case, says prosecutors are doing what they can. ‘These people have been charged with what the prosecutors can do right now,’ he said, adding that more charges could come down later.”
Why the delay? The weapons that were found in their car aren’t going to change. Would more charges be “Islamophobic”?
“Growing Concern Over Brothers Arrested With Guns, Bomb-Making Materials,” by Esme Murphy, WCCO, May 24, 2017 (thanks to Ken):
MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — There are growing concerns about the arrest of two brothers with ties to the Middle East who authorities say had an arsenal with bomb-making materials, guns and ammunition in their car.
Twenty-seven-year-old Abdullah Alrifahe and 26-year-old Majid Alrifahe were arrested on May 11 in north Minneapolis.
Abdullah is being held in the Hennepin County Jail. His brother, Majid, has been released and is facing minor charges.
WCCO-TV has confirmed that both Homeland Security and the FBI are involved in the investigation, which started outside a federally-subsidized senior housing project. A good Samaritan confronted the men about littering from their car.
The man, who asked that his name not be used for fear of his safety, said the brothers jumped out of their car, moved aggressively toward him and used the N-word. He then called police.
Inside the brothers’ car, police found a loaded AK-47, another rifle, a handgun, a grenade, large amounts of ammunition, and what would later be identified as bomb-making materials, including a drone.
Abdullah Alrifahe had recently been released from jail after serving time for a weapons conviction. He is now facing a single felony weapons charge.
His brother, Majid, has been released from jail and is facing a low-level misdemeanor charges, including disorderly conduct.
The good Samaritan is outraged the charges aren’t more serious.
“For what they found in their car, that is way too light,” he said.
However, criminal defense attorney Joe Tamburino, who is not affiliated with the case, says prosecutors are doing what they can.
“These people have been charged with what the prosecutors can do right now,” he said, adding that more charges could come down later.
The Minneapolis Police Department says the investigation remains an open. Meanwhile, Abdullah Alrifahe is being held on $200,000 bail, which is an extremely high amount for the charges he faces….
pfwag says
A grenade? I guess that is an Islamic religious item…
Any bets on them skipping out while on bail?
Saleem Smith says
If these hardened jihadi criminals skip bail they will likely find plenty of safe haven within the Muslim community. There is no shortage of jihad supporters within said community. It all boils down to one inescapable reality:
When the founder of a religion, in this case Mohammed, is a murderous psychopathic warlord gangster, and the religion teaches in its most sacred book that said founder is the “model man” for believers to emulate, the religion will produce tons of murderous jihadis. Islam does this every single day and will continue to do so until the Muslims themselves accept the fact that Islam is a horrible lie and abandon it.
We ex-Muslims living with Islam’s formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know that Mohammedanism is an evil pack of lies.
Qur’an 33:21:
“There is a good example in God’s apostle for those of you who look to God and the Last Day and remember God always.”
Qur’an 9:29:
“Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.”
Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, No. 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah ‘s Apostle said, ” I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)”
Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:
“One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur’an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way…
The statement continues,
Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.”
Ray Sears says
Excuse Me, but may i suggest a answer to this problem that has worked for the past in mpls/st.paul mn, Police Just shot the muslims in the head and dump them down by the Mississippi River like you have done to anyone who has dared to complain about one your cops in uniform robbing or raping them ! Hey, it worked in the past numerous times, because the Hennepin county medical examiner’s as well as your police departments corruption ! Or are you just bending over once more and grabbing your ankles for the muslim scum !
gravenimage says
Ray Sears wrote:
Excuse Me, but may i suggest a answer to this problem that has worked for the past in mpls/st.paul mn, Police Just shot the muslims in the head and dump them down by the Mississippi River like you have done to anyone who has dared to complain about one your cops in uniform robbing or raping them ! Hey, it worked in the past numerous times, because the Hennepin county medical examiner’s as well as your police departments corruption !
……………………………
What a load of sickening calumny. *Ugh*.
Alan McNaughton says
The truth is what makes people free Sin has nany forms and devices. If anything rings of truth and yet is corrupted with error its still error
The human predicament èxplained in proverbs chapter 1 has been in print and spoken to followers of truth for 3000 years
” i will bless those who bless you. and curse those who curse you, were words given to Moses
Who was mandated to wipe out idolatry / child sacrifice sexual immorality etc among the then wholly pagan world
Sons of Liberty says
Are these two immigrants or refugees ? If they are they need to be DEPORTED ..immediately ! If citizens prosecute them to the full extent of the law. This is a disaster waiting to happen ….just like the guy in Manchester , who the police knew all about and did nothing. The leftists in Minnesota are going to pay a price for all the Muslims they let into their State.
Jeanette says
It’s looking like quite a few “authorities” in numerous western countries APPROVE of Muslims killing the western populations.
It almost seems like a plan to replace the people of (mostly) European extraction, doesn’t it?
Berengaria says
Thanks Jeanette for the Truth about the Muslim Repopulation Plan of America.
The worst Savages on the Planet & they were INVITED by our Dear Leaders to replace the American Population.
It’s almost too frightening for a Civilized American to Believe, but I can see no other reason why such brutality is allowed to flourish by our Own GOV.
Pamela says
Dave my ? is this. what the heck are the liberals getting out of this…Are they that foolish that Liberals think the muslims really care for them. .IF they ever take over, they wont need the liberals. and they (liberals) will end up just like the rest of us.
Dee Miller says
Absolute insanity not to bring multiple felonies against both of these individuals. This will come back to bite us in the rear-end if we dont shut them down NOW
Ed Lee says
They need to be charged in federal court in accordance with Project Exile. If you’re unfamiliar with it, look it up.
Terry says
Considering, when Pres. Trump -DURING THE CAMPAIGN said something about Somalis and their ties to terrorists organizations, said, (to the effect)- don’t you dare say anything about my Somalis.
(I forgot the exact wording, but close to that).
So, is it any wonder?
By the way- why aren’t they also charged with A HATE CRIME OR HATE SPEECH BY SAYING “NIGGER”?
IF A WHITE NON-MUSLIM SAID IT, HE (OR SHE) WOULD BE (FIGURATIVELY) CRUCIFIED.
Especially by the left wing media- especially in a leftist state.
gravenimage says
Many Muslims *are* virulent racists. The “Prophet” Muhamnmed called Black people “raisin heads”, and Muslims not only ran the African slave trade, but are *still* enslaving Black people in places like Mauritania and Sudan.
brane pilot says
If you let Muslims into your country, some of them are going to devote themselves to killing as many of your people as they can as a religious sacrament.
That is as certain as the law of gravity, and has as much chance of being changed.
If you and your leaders are OK with that, fine. But let it be an open discussion.
gravenimage says
Got Muslims? Got Jihad.
Jeanette says
Is that “brane” as in String and M Theories?
Just curious!
gravenimage says
Minnesota: Muslims arrested with guns and bomb-making materials get only light charges
………………………..
Why the light charges? This Good Samaritan–though initially just concerned about littering–may well have been instrumental in foiling a Jihad terror attack.
Remember–not very long ago–when Garrison Keillor could become famous and make a good living gently lampooning Minnesotans for being sweet but terribly dull? Of course, that was when they were mostly good-hearted Scandinavian Lutherans and jokes about Jello salads at church potlucks were recognized by everyone.
In other words, it was before the influx of ravening Muslims.
Wellington says
Keillor, gravenimage, is just another Leftist who stupidly made fun of those in “fly-over country,” in his case with Minnesotans. As with your typical Leftist, he spewed crap he and other Leftists thought funny but which ordinarily isn’t really funny at all (think Stephen Colbert here who represents the pit of what passes for Leftist humor). The snobbery in Leftism should never be overlooked. Keillor could be a “poster boy” here.
He has called Donald Trump a “punk” and I have little doubt he knows next to nothing about Islam. Actually, I believe he knows next to nothing about a lot of things. Just one more morally and intellectually challenged Leftist asshole who found a niche in the capitalist system which Leftists so despise but who don’t mind making money from it. In short, and in the final analysis, Keillor is a nothing, of no consequence whatsoever, and a parasitic nothing at that. I am so heartily tired of his breed. They are beyond tedious; they are destructive.
As for the influx of Muslims which you mentioned, you’d think by now that most everyone would figure out that an influx of Muslims into previously non-Muslim lands is NEVER a good thing for any non-Muslim society long term. Never. But I know you know this. The problem is that so many are still in denial of this oh-so-obvious truth.
gravenimage says
Wellington, I suppose I might have expressed myself better here. I am not a particular fan of Keillor or his rather dismissive, mean-spirited humor.
I just meant that to whatever extent his characterization of all of Minnesota’s residents was somewhat accurate–if ungenerous–it certainly does not apply to the invasion of violent Muslims.
For myself, I’ll take such “dull” people anytime.
I do have to say that Keillor *was* opposed to ugly Muslim Keith Ellison taking the DNC chair–although he seemed rather vague as to why this was a bad idea.
Wellington says
You rarely, VERY RARELY, gravenimage, are at fault for not expressing yourself better. I understood your overall point about Keillor, leftist snob though he is, and just felt inclined “to write more.” Nothing more than this.
BTW, what has happened to Champ? She and I had a “dust-up” back in March of last year, which sorrowed me and for which I felt myself at least somewhat responsible. Do you know why she is not posting anymore? She had many constructive things to say and I miss her posting no more here at JW. Just asking.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Wellington.
I very much miss Champ’s posting here, as well. Yes, I have been in touch with her. She felt she needed to take a break from Jihad Watch for awhile.
I do understand–things can be rather unrelenting bleak here at times. If this were not such an important fight, I would not spend so much time looking at such darkness, either.
But the good people here are rays of light in that darkness–yourself most of all. Shall I tell Champ you asked after her?
Another person I miss here is Angemon. We did not agree on every point, but he is a strong Anti-Jihadist and he used to post here almost every day. Now I haven’t seen any comments from him in months. Jay Boo seems to have disappeared, as well. I hope they are both doing well.
Charli Main says
@ GI
Forgive me for butting in GI.
Being able to express a contrary opinion or disagree on an issue, without resorting to violence and abusive language, is a fundamental pillar of democracy.
By way of example only, I may not agree with EVERY opinion you express or theory you posit, ( including all other JW posters) but that does NOT make you (them) my enemy. Not on my side, anyway.
Being able to argue and challenge on an issue and still be friends with someone, is a concept that appears to be totally beyond the comprehension of Muslims.
gravenimage says
Charli, I could not agree with you more–and you are not butting in at all. This is an open forum.
As to disagreements, I think that as long as they are respectful that they can be very useful. We are all feeling our way here, and I know I have learned a great deal from other posters here–including ones where we have disagreed on some matters.
And you are *quite* right about debate among civilized people versus the oppression and savagery of Islam.
Proud to stand with you and all the other brave Anti-Jihadists here!
Gary says
Take a good look at their eyes……
They don’t want to assimilate.
They’re here to do what their death god, (allah), demands. DEATH TO THE INFIDELS.
WAKE UP AMERICA BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.
Sharia Law is contrary to our Declaration of Independence.
David M says
I noticed their shark eyes too. They are dead people walking in human bodies, consumed by evil & hate.
Jeanette says
Let’s call Allah a “death demon;” let’s not appear to actually fall for that BS that there is a deity called Allah!
Gary says
I agree. However; allah, actually does exist in the spirit of the anti-christ.
The father of all lies. Who comes to rob, steal, kill, and destroy.
Satan.
But you are correct…..
There is no convincing muslims they worship a demon. THE demon – Satan.
Clearly, with 7.whatever BILLION muslims on the face of the earth…. the blind continue to lead the blind.
Bill says
The media accounts are pathetic. Not enough detail.
What is a “grenade”? It can mean a lot of things from a high explosive fragmentation device to a smoke grenade that would mark a landing area for an medivac helicopter. Most readers probably assume the former, but the news account is silent.
They had an “AK-47”, oh the humanity! If it is a semiautomatic version of that firearm, like any other semiautomatic action that has been around for a hundred years or more, it is perfectly legal in all but the communist states of NY, MD, CA, & CT. Is it a true assault rifle, the fully automatic version, the ones issued to the military? That might be a different story. The news account is silent.
They had a handgun. Barring their having possessed it by theft or false application, ownership and possession of a handgun is perfectly legal, as it ought to be. The news account is silent on important qualifying details.
They had large amounts of ammunition. No crime there. What is “large” anyhow? To a jackass from the liberal media it is more than 10 rounds of anything. Lots of people have “large” amounts of ammunition. There is no crime here at all so it does not matter what the news account has to say about it, other than to use scary words like “large”.
Oh, I see, they had a “drone”. Perfectly legal. Many kids have them nowadays. No crime there.
Then they had the damning non-specific “bomb making materials”. I suppose there could be something to this but the news article does not say. It could be duct tape, plumbing fixtures, batteries, gasoline for the weedwacker or even a pressure cooker. None of those are illegal unless assembled as a bomb, yet all could be materials used in a bomb. I bet all of us possess things that could be “bomb making materials”. The reporting is just downright absurd.
Yes, the article says they did have an “arsenal”. Oooh, let’s all shiver in our boots. What the hell is that? It isn’t a crime. It is an emotive liberal news term to describe the presence of more than one firearm and accompanying ammunition. Ooooh we need gun control and civilian disarmament to protect us from terrorism! Please don’t fall for that nonsense.
The one charge levied here that makes sense is the one laid against the guy with the conviction on a prior weapons charge. His ownership or possession of the firearms might have been a parole violation or he might be prohibited from owning or possessing firearms because of that conviction.
These guys might be bad actors with bad intent, but, except for the one guy with both the firearms and the prior conviction, there are not any other crimes here. The totality of the circumstances suggests that an investigation is required. Perhaps these items were going to be used as part of a larger plan to commit a crime, that is where the investigation should go.
That this all resulted in one charge is not surprising at all.
gravenimage says
I understand that you are concerned about Second Amendment rights.
But if you don’t believe that heavily armed Muslims are a threat, you have not been paying attention.
Bill says
You are falling for the propaganda.
They were not heavily armed. If you think that possession of a hand gun and a semiautomatic rifle and ammunition in one place at one time is “heavily armed”, I offer to help you become better informed.
If you were to use that standard as a basis to arrest someone, well you would have to arrest maybe a third of the nation. Ironically, that is exactly what the Democrats and global elitists have in mind.
You would have to arrest me too I suppose. I can go to spend some quality time at a gun range and can be more “heavily armed” than they were, and that is without trying very hard. A typical hunter will carry a rifle and a hand gun and ammunition for both, and you would say he is “heavily armed”?
The prior weapons conviction, however, is of interest. That changes the circumstances and I said as much. I would want to be learning more about their connections, associates, trips out of the country to possible terrorist locations. If you can find more actual crimes in the scenario weakly sketched out in this news report, please have a go at it. I could not. The thrust of the news article is that the pair were “lightly charged”. I call BS to that. They seem to have been appropriately charged.
Wellington says
Here’s what your missing, Bill: Any Muslim with weaponry is potentially “heavily armed.” Essentially.
Let me be more specific: Those who adhere to a totalitarian ideology, and Islam is a totalitarian ideology and you know this or should know it, should be under the highest scrutiny for possession of virtually any weapon. This does not mean, on its face, that such losers should be denied weaponry, but such losers should be subject to the highest level of scrutiny before being allowed to possess most any kind of weaponry. Personally speaking, in virtually any case here with an adherent of a totalitarian, heinous ideology, were I to have my way, they would be denied access to guns et al.
PRECISELY because Islam has not been to this day accurately and, for God’s sake, properly described as a totalitarian ideology, one which will obliterate the American Constitution if only allowed to do so, therefore Muslims, in a sane and informed America, should be denied weaponry of almost any kind. Ditto for admitted Neo-Nazis, for hard-core admitted Marxists, for very publicly announced anarchists, et al.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact and those adhering quite publicly to any ideology which is dedicated to the ending of liberty, which Islam surely is, should be held to such a high level of scrutiny that ordinary Second Amendment rights should be denied them PRECISELY because of this. JUST AS ordinary First Amendment religious rights should be denied to followers of Mo’s creed because Mo creed followers would only too willingly destroy First Amendment rights if only given the opportunity———as they, it should be overwhelmingly presumed, would destroy Second Amendment rights too.
After all, Bill, how much freedom exists in the some 57 Islamic nations and how many gun rights do as well? Hopefully you’re grasping my overall point here, that being, once again, the American Constitution is not a suicide pact. After all, you don’t need to destroy freedom in order to preserve it. Freedom to those who would end freedom is something a free society must take into account. Have you?
Your turn.
terry says
What is a “grenade”? It can mean a lot of things from a high explosive fragmentation device to a smoke grenade that would mark a landing area for an medivac helicopter.
Bill- why would a person AT A SENIOR CITIZEN LIVING FACILITY need a smoke grenade ( that would mark a landing area—).?
Why would any civilian need one WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF A FIRST RESPONDER-in a rural or semi rural area.
I think (as do most of the posters here) a fragmentation grenade. (Incidentally, when i was in the army-I threw a few of each-in training exercises).
My 5 cents.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Wellington.
David M says
Agree Wellington. We know we could walk past Bill while he is carrying rifles & not be in danger of our lives. A crazed Muslim carrying one knife could kill us though, the Muslim becomes “heavily armed” with only a knife because he is a crazed Muslim.
LR says
Well, fanatical Muslims hell bent on going to ‘paradise’ don’t need any formal ‘weaponry’ as we know…
Cars, and trucks work fine…
Boy, this is depressing…
Dee Miller says
Do they have affilations with radical mosques, or organizations?
Why were all of these ” harmless and legal” items in their vehicle?
You are an a apologist and a distraction from the real conversation…
Ben Kennedy says
The moslems who were arrested for having a car full of weapons and bomb making equipment are facing very light weight charges from the law, despite the fact they have served time before on very similar charges.
The law is a paper tiger (this story is evidence of that; at least if you are a moslem terrorist).
Saleem Smith says
We ex-Muslims living with Islam’s formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know that Mohammedanism is an evil pack of lies.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Wellington says
Another comment on this thread: Dead eyes yet once more. In both of these sub-humans.
Islam is excellent at producing followers with dead eyes. Happens again and again and again. So fitting since there is a deadness at the core of Islam. A profound, disturbing and destructive deadness.
Surely. And one knows this by now or should know it. Thus, all apologias for Islam can be proffered by only two kinds of people: 1) those who are ignorant; 2) those who are malevolent.
The curse which is Islam to the human race continues. Arguably the most destructive and most long-lived curse of all time. I’m very much inclined to put it first here.
Charli Main says
“Islam is excellent at producing followers with dead eyes. Happens again and again and again. So fitting since there is a deadness at the core of Islam. ”
A similar phenomenon was observed, over 2000 years ago, by one of the greatest men that has ever lived.
” THE FACE IS A PICTURE OF THE MIND WITH THE EYES AS ITS INTERPRETER”
Marcus Tullius Cicero. Around 60 BC
somehistory says
Isn’t this case similar to the one in Manchester?Wasn’t the mass murderer talking of committing the crimes before he got the bomb and murdered a lot of innocent children and parents thereof? A report on BBC says some people were worried about him and called in reports about him and the intelligence people were aware of him…but nothing was done to stop him from murdering as he planned.
The one let go should be watched more carefully than he likely will be. The public will pay for the errors committed by those in positions of responsibility….as they have already in many places around the globe.
abad says
I wish these Muslims would all move to Syria. They clearly do not like the USA at all.
Wellington says
But they won’t, abad. They won’t.
Remember, per Islamic theology, all the earth belongs to Muslims. Yeah, they want it all and they think, per their warped theology, they deserve it all.
Arthur says
I’m sure the judge, while recognizing the hard evidence, used the same mind-reading abilities of the appellate court and was able to determine that these poor saps intended no harm and are just collectors. Therefore, a light sentence was deemed appropriate for their peaceful thoughts.
Agha Ali Arkhan says
What Muslims hear when we complain is “moo.” (Thanks to Dilbert)
Davegreybeard says
O.K. Wellington, I will take a turn in Bill’s stead.
With all due respect Wellington, and I have a great deal for your tremendous intellect and very insightful posts, I must disagree a bit with you here. To wit:
@Wellington: “…therefore Muslims, in a sane and informed America, should be denied weaponry of almost any kind.”
O.K. so far. How will this be done? Special law passed by Congress for Muslims because we know that they wish to subvert the constitution and replace it with Shiria? Sure, but is that really the standard you advocate?
Of course this leads to your comment:
“…in virtually any case here with an adherent of a totalitarian, heinous ideology, were I to have my way, they would be denied access to guns et al.”
Really?
This is kind of like “Hate Speech” in where it leads – observe:
NeoNazis should be denied weapons because we all know and agree they are “Haters.”
And the KKK.
Of course, let it be so, declares a Republican Congress.
But the next Democrat administration declares that “Right Wing Islamophobes” are “Haters” also and should be denied weapons – they cite laws passed under the Trump administration, at the urging of lawyer and world renowned scholar, Wellington. So…
My house is raided and an “ARESENAL!”” is discovered, along with enough ammunition to equip an Army. I am demonized by the press as an “Islamophobe” with weapons and imprisoned for life under “Wellington’s Law.”
Thanks Wellington.
How about we treat the second amendment the same way that we treat the First, sans political qualifiers?
Bill says
Thank you Mr. Davegraybeard. I could not reply due to that end of the reply buttons on that sub thread. I appreciate your response and it is very near to what I would have written.
This news report was really an anti second amendment hit piece, filled with all the usual gun control jargon and disinformation. It was disguised as a coddling muslim terrorist piece. That is where the media and the elites are dragging us. Ever since San Bernadino and maybe a little before, every terror attack in the US became a platform for Democrats, elitists and even some Republicans to demand more gun control and restrictions on the Second Amendment rights of US citizens. That is their plan. That is what we have in Europe, which is the foundation for the emerging police states there coupled with unchecked Islamic terror attacks. The perfect storm and the Euroserfs cannot withstand it.
I will pose one last series of questions. After “Wellington’s Law” is passed, who then protects the likes of Mr. Spencer, Ms. Pamela Geller, and Geert Wilders in the next Garland TX? Who stops the next Minnesota Mall slasher?
Privately contracted security stopped Garland. State sponsored protection was unavailable and, until the our government demands and receives an accounting from the FBI. it is not unreasonable to wonder if our own government may have been involved in staging that attack. In Minnesota, an off-duty cop, in his capacity as an armed citizen stopped that one. It wasn’t Jeh Johnson and his faux DHS that was Johnny on the spot there.
If America becomes, as some would like it, a continent-wide Gun Free Zone, who will be the first politicians telling us that “we have to expect to live with this”? I have the answer, It is going to be those same politicians that passed “Wellington’s Law”.
The right to self defense is the first and most inherent human right we have. It is an essential thread in a fabric of individual rights that helps to protect the weak from the strong, the serf from the monarch, the free man from the totalitarian, and the infidel from the murderous Jihadi.
Wellington says
Thank you for your reply, Davegreybeard. Much appreciated. Here is my reply to your reply.
First of all, please note again, as you already have, that I qualified my overall assessment with the phrase “in a sane and informed America.” The slippery slope you posited, whereby someone like yourself would eventually be deemed unfit to own guns too would mean that we no longer live in a sane and informed America. Understand, that slippery slope may occur as you posited, but assuming it wouldn’t, I would therefore not have a problem denying certain people most or all gun rights. Convicted criminals, after they serve their time, are in many jurisdictions denied such (also the right to ever vote again). So are the certified mentally ill. So, I don’t see a danger to the Second Amendment were most or all weaponry denied to those adhering to an ideology that calls for replacing the Constitution as the law of the land with something else——for instance Sharia.
I mean look at it the opposite way, your way, to wit, those who adhere to an ideology like Marxism or Islam that are totalitarian in nature, which single out groups of human being for death or second-class status in their ideological blueprint, that are clearly mortal enemies of liberty, that would destroy America as we know it if only given the chance, should have exactly the same right you and I do to purchase all legal weaponry. Yep, no difference between you, me, a hard-core Marxist and a Muslim who is an admitted admirer of ISIS (admittedly I here made the Marxist and Muslim particularly extreme in their views here but to better illustrate my overall point). We all should have the same right to purchase guns. OK, this would eliminate the slippery slope potential that you brought up but are you comfortable with that hard-core Marxist and ISIS admirer being able to buy what you and I can buy respecting weaponry?
Rights are not unlimited. Sensible restrictions on certain rights should, can and do exist. Let’s move to the First Amendment here to further illustrate my overall take on things. Yes, Islam should be legal in the US, as should Nazism, Marxism, the KKK, etc., but should this translate to Muslims, Neo-Nazis, Marxists, skinheads, et al. having the same rights to immigrate to the US as, say, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, et al? Immigration matters depend in part on First Amendment rights, as evidenced very recently by judges placing an injunction on Trump’s travel bans. And why? Because the bans, per this judicial reasoning, unfairly single out Muslims (the bans really didn’t but they were interpreted that way). But I want a ban on all Muslim immigration because Islam is a totalitarian ideology as well as a religion and I don’t believe that the freedom of religion clause in the First Amendment should be absolutely neutral between Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and Muslims. Do you? You see, just as I don’t mind criminals or the mentally ill or Muslims disallowed from owning guns, so I don’t mind restrictions on Islam for First Amendment purposes either. I’ll risk the slippery slope possibility here too, but because I will assume we will continue to live in a sane and informed America. Once again, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Always good to read your posts, Davegreybeard. Hope too that you and yours are doing well. Take care. Would welcome another reply from you should you feel so inclined. After all, you could be right and I wrong about “this matter.” Ah, the limits of freedom do present challenges at times, don’t they?
Davegreybeard says
Always good to hash things out with you Wellington, but I think you are missing an existential threat to freedom here.
There is a difference between denying gun rights to criminals and the mentally ill, versus those that adhere to a political ideology that is unpopular. This is because what is popular or unpopular is decided by human beings who may have an agenda – in this case it is destroying the Second Amendment.
Today we deal with NeoNazis, the KKK, Nation of Islam, Aryan Nation, and on and on, who could be placed on the “banned list.” Some Liberals already think I’m a danger to the nation and you as well – they get into power and I’m off to prison unless I see it coming and selfexile myself.
I might add that whatever protocol there is for monitoring the above groups should be instituted for Islam. In other words, watch their every move like a hawk and thoroughly educate our agents on Islam.
Let’s not pass laws and curtail freedoms, for a problem that we already know how to solve.
Bill says
I fear that Mr. Wellington (whose work I read here and agree with much of) is wrong on this issue.. He would cashier the Second Amendment in a heartbeat if he could, believing that if weapons were outlawed Muslims could not kill us.
Cut through all the sophistry.. A free man is willing and able and capable of defending himself or not. It starts right there, It is that basic, that fundamental. and that binary. It starts with you, yes you.
If you are willing to allow government to deny you or anyone that fundamental right, you have already surrendered. Freedom comes from the bottom up, not from the top down. Europeans have been well trained to accept life ordered from the top down. For a brief shining moment in history, the renaissance changed that. Now Europe, Canada and perhaps the USA will go back to the old way. Oligarchs and Monarchs and Sheiks and Commissars rule the masses.
Any person who seeks to deprive another of their basic human right to defend themselves is evil and nothing short of it. I will not consent to giving up that right. Mr. Wellington, would you so consent? No need to answer me on that one. You must answer it for yourself and that is the only answer that matters.
Wellington says
Just for the record, Bill, I don’t want guns outlawed as you asserted I do in your 12:22 A.M. post of today. Not at all. I am a very strong supporter of the Second Amendment. My argument revolves around disallowing gun ownership to certain people, for instance card-carrying members of the Communist Party of America—–or Muslims. Davegreybeard fears that this could lead to many other people being denied gun ownership for terrible, insupportable or flippant reasons and he made a very good case for his position on this matter. I argued otherwise of course but, for the record, I absolutely do not want guns outlawed for your average American. Far from it.
Wellington says
I was addressing, Davegreybeard, not a political ideology which is “merely” unpopular but one which is lethal to freedom. You know, just this past week, the California legislature did something I think is really stupid. It reversed the over half-century state law that forbade hiring Communist Party members to state jobs. Now you can be a member of the Communist Party and you have as much right as some Democrat or Republican to be considered for employment by the state of California.
Communism, which calls for the overthrowing of the capitalist system and the brutal elimination of the upper and middle classes (Marx’s class struggle theory), should be allowed to exist in America but not to the extent of letting Communist Party members become state employees. What we have here is both moral and intellectual ignorance in allowing people into government who adhere to an ideology which seeks the destruction of our way of life.
Well, I think you know where I’m going with this. It’s one thing to allow heinous and destructive ideologies which are a mortal threat to freedom to exist in America. It is quite another to assert that those who adhere to such ideologies (and Islam surely falls into this “category”) should enjoy every right that all other citizens do. Just as I have no problem with denying a card-carrying member of the Communist Party any state or federal employment, so do I have no problem with denying this card-carrying Communist the right to purchase arms as you or I would. Ditto for Muslims since they adhere to an ideology which is as destructive of freedom as Marxism is.
I understand the slippery slope argument. If we ban Muslims from immigrating to America, then next it might be Hindus—or Sikhs—or Jews—or….or….or…. Ditto for gun ownership. But as long as common sense is retained as well as proper judgment based on sound knowledge, I myself am ready to “risk” things here. I mean what do you think of a total ban on any further Muslim immigration to America? Should there be no ban? Are we bound by the Constitution to let in Muslims who adhere to an ideology that would destroy the Constitution? Neo-Nazis? Marxists? Anarchists? And if we can exclude such people from coming to America, why let those already in America have every right to federal or state jobs——–or guns? Complete tolerance of those who are believers in a massively intolerant belief system will eventually lead to the end of tolerance——-and freedom.
Finally, let me say here I understand where you are coming from and I actually think your take on gun ownership has merit and that mine does come with the risk you mentioned. But surely you can see that there is also danger in your approach.
Good to have this back and forth with you. It’s always tough exploring the limits of freedom. Always. Oh, for the record, I have run all this give and take we have had past my lovely wife and she told me that while my argument has merit she thinks yours has even more. So, you have an ally here you didn’t even know about till now. Take care, my friend.
Davegreybeard says
Thank you for sharing your wife’s thoughts about this, I have no doubt that she is a wonderful and clear thinking woman.
One more point, I hold that the First Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with immigration. The judges who ruled that every wannabe immigrant has First Amendment rights are simply wrong. They are political hacks who will soon be exposed and overruled by SCOTUS.
Immigration is under the authority of POTUS, period.
Take care my friend and give your wife a warm hug for me.
Wellington says
I agree with you, Davegreybeard, that the First Amendment should have nothing to do with immigration but leftist judges are trying to make it so, which could be called “fake law.”
But here’s what to really worry about with respect to immigration rights——-the Fourteenth Amendment, specifically the equal protection clause. For example, a Hindu family who have American citizenship want some fellow Hindu family members from India to come to America and gain citizenship too. But so does a Muslim family that has American citizenship and want their brood from, say, Pakistan to come to America and also gain citizenship. Would quite arguably violate the equal protection clause here to allow the Hindu family to have their way but not the Muslim family unless by strong and convincing evidence it could be shown that the Muslims denied entry were denied such for reasons that have nothing to do with their religion.
My overall fear is that one way or another Muslims will use our freedoms in order to eventually end our freedoms, which is why, at the very least, Islam needs to be very publicly understood, including by judges, as a giant negative and not simply treated as just one more religion. This is the big picture as I know you know. And you too take care and may I end here by saying that you came very close to convincing me that you are right about what you said respecting the Second Amendment and I wrong. Best to you and yours.
Hubert Wagner says
This incident is interesting because of the brothers’ reaction to a protest about litter being thrown from their car.
Consider, these two were likely planning a serious attack. They had the means, the opportunity as they were free men and there is no shortage of soft targets. So, how could they be distracted from their mission merely by an Infidel who complained to them about throwing litter on the highway?
Given, Muslims, according to Mohammed, are the best of people and Infidels the worst which means no Muslim can ever be in any way subservient to an Infidel, we can see how this could happen.
How dare that Infidel challenge a Muslim’s behavior!
Given the circumstances, clearly that imperative took precedence over their mission and the security of their mission.
Perhaps this sort of Muslim reflex is a weakness we could exploit.
Savvy Kafir says
Sometimes I think the same thing — that maybe we should start pushing their buttons, to make “moderate” Muslims show their true colors. Of course, then law enforcement & the courts would have to actually do something about those infidel-hating True Believers, once they’re flushed out into the open. And that’s where the plan probably falls apart — at least for now.
But I do think it’s important to identify the enemy, before it’s too late. And it’s important to TRY to educate the public regarding how many of those hostile True Believers live among us.
gravenimage says
Good points, Hubert.
Horseman says
What’s the matter with the law in Minnesota? Does it want theses two individuals to kill innocents?
LR says
Horseman,
Apparently, Yes…
The wretched ‘authorities’ sent this violent, druggie addicted nutcase to go stay at his parents house after they had already had violent encounters with him…
Well, geeeez….Guess what happened….
http://www.startribune.com/man-charged-with-stabbing-his-parents-to-death-in-eden-prairie-home-with-screwdriver/424673803/#1
Gordon Miller says
I fear that President Trump has yet to make the connection between the teachings of Islam and terrorism. Evidence of that is his pick of McMaster, who states openly that Islam is a religion of peace, etc.
We’ve heard this before out of the mouths of Obama and others. I thought we were finished with that falsehood but perhaps was too optimistic. Isn’t it odd that all terrorists are Muslims?
Wouldn’t it be nice if Spencer could be granted an audience with our President. Perhaps some good would result with respect to our war with these savages……excuse me, losers.
Screeminmeeme says
1. No surprise that pro-Islamic Minnesota ( Somalian Muslim refugee stronghold) would give these two future Muslim terrorists a pass. Hmmm….wonder why they had weapons of mass destruction in their car.
2. If these two were bald white guys wearing T-shirts with the Gadsden flag on them, they would have been labeled ‘domestic terrorists’ and tried as such.
3. This can only end in the deaths of more Americans……and, God forbid, if it happens, the Minneapolis ‘justice’ department will share culpability for it.
Screeminmeeme says
4. We will never know but that black man who called the cops should be honored as a true patriot who, by his actions, might have prevented a terrorist attack that very day. We must all be on the look out for anything suspicious and out of the ordinary, and be willing to call the police or DHS, even if it proves to be nothing.
gravenimage says
Agreed.
underbed cat says
Maybe they should temporally store the weapons and stuff, at the nearby mosque, then the neighbors will all be well. Minneapolis St. Paul, has a wealthy mansion neighbor hood of muslim professionals and regulars…many covered woman and bearded men similar to other major cities….of professionals and mosques. I am surprised however that the brother was released….but of course they usually have no clue. Just hope they aren’t too devout in their religious duties especially if they have an interest in gathering bomb making materials like flares and smoke grenades.
William says
What will it take for American Police officials to wake up and enforce laws.
Our police, politics. Government, Congress has been infliltrated with ISIS or whatever you want to call it. Our Wake Up is overdue. Americans people deserve much better. Give the police & Judges power to do their jobs.and protect USA.
John F. says
Wirh sick liberal minds in leadership and the court system, the fight against Jihad will not be won.
Savvy Kafir says
As a non-Muslim with legally-purchased guns, a carry permit, no criminal record, and no association with terrorist groups or terrorist plots, I’m pretty sure that if I was caught with a grenade and bomb-making materials, I’d be looking at serious prison time. But poor, misunderstood jihadis get leniency from the courts that no one else does.
Bill says
If you shopped at Home Depot and bought things in the plumbing and electrical department, you would possess bomb making materials. This news report is an anti 2A hit piece. Wake up! The media is trying to equate firearms ownership with terrorism in order to encourage people to believe that guns are the cause of terrorism. Please stop buying into this propaganda. This is such bullshit, and nearly everyone here is falling for it.
LR says
The is the other issue going on in Minnesota…
FGM bill controversy…
http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-bill-against-female-mutilation-raises-opposition/423070383/
Who the hell would have thought when they were growing up, that our Reps would be debating FGM bills in the U.S.?
My Q is…Why are we even allowing people into our country who are this backwards?
God knows there are plenty of decently educated people who would like to legally immigrate into our country…
How depressing….
gravenimage says
It is depressing *and* alarming.
A European says
What are the prosecutors waiting for? Why are the charges so light? Well, isn’t it obvious? These two repugnant morons must wear shirts with LOVE spelled out with knives, guns and grenades ( like the lunatic girl in Manchester) before the department of public prosecution really cracks down on them. All jokes aside, but one cannot deny the fact that Muslim offenders often get away with a suspended sentence, that they serve light prison sentences or that charges against them are dropped altogether whereas they should be punished to the fulll rigor of the law for what they have done. How come? One answer might be that judges and prosecutors are simply afraid of Islam. Yes, they are frightened of Muslim mobs rioting in the streets, they are anxious about further terrorist attacks, if they deliver a harsh but fair judgment on a Muslim criminal, they are fearful of further radicalisation, if their dispensation of justice outrages the Muslim community. Indeed, their deportment is comprehensible, and it is sometimes
wise to show restraint, but there is a fine line between circonspection and cowardice.