This “dialogue” event between evangelical minister James White and jihadi imam Yasir Qadhi took place in the appropriately named Olive Branch, Mississippi last January, and while we don’t ordinarily write about archival material, this is such a spectacular example of the pitfalls of “interfaith dialogue,” and of going into discussions with Muslim spokesmen without being sufficiently educated about Islamic teaching, that it warrants particular attention.
The event purported to highlight and discuss “agreements and differences” between Christians and Muslims:
White starts out by praising Qadhi effusively, calling him a “kindred spirit” in pursuit of the truth:
White’s high regard for Qadhi is strange, given Qadhi’s open avowal that Christians are “filthy,” and that Muslims can seize their property and take their lives in jihad:
But White thinks he knows all about that, and that it is no big deal. This is an excerpt from a very lengthy, windy segment on White’s show:
White not only makes the risible argument that Qadhi never called him “filthy,” and therefore must not think that Christians are filthy, but in the longer segment he also attempts moral equivalence. He says that Qadhi’s calling Christians filthy is essentially the same as Christianity saying that no one is righteous before God, and that the righteousness of human beings is as filthy rags. This ignores the fact that Christianity considers such statements to apply to everyone, Christian and non-Christian, while Islamic statements about the uncleanness of unbelievers (cf. Qur’an 9:28) apply to unbelievers only, for there is in all of Islam a sharp and massive dichotomy between believers and unbelievers: “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, ruthless to unbelievers” (Qur’an 48:29).
White also claims that Jews, Christians, and Muslims would all agree that idolaters are filthy in God’s sight, and shows no awareness of the fact that the idea that unbelievers are unclean is a live concept among some Muslims, notably Shi’ites. The renowned Ayatollah Sistani classifies unbelievers as unclean, along with pigs, dogs, dead bodies, etc. What Jews or Christians do that?
Regarding Qadhi’s statements about jihad, White notes that Qadhi argues that only a legitimate caliph can declare jihad, and that most Muslims reject the Islamic State’s caliphate. White shows no awareness whatsoever of the fact that in Islamic law, jihad is fard kifaya, a communal obligation from which one individual is free if it is being discharged by others, but it becomes fard ayn, obligatory upon every believer, when a Muslim land is attacked (cf. Umdat al-Salik o9.1-o9.3).
Nor does White appear particularly disturbed by the fact that Qadhi even allows in principle for the seizure of the property of non-Muslims, and the killing of non-Muslims, under some circumstances. White is much more exercised about my supposedly misrepresenting Qadhi by reporting on his words. Apparently, it’s all my fault: in this video (starting at 7:27), White sits next to Qadhi as Qadhi says that “the far right targeted” him, “you know, Spencer and Pamela Geller.” He claims that Geller and I produced a “fabricated audio clip,” referring to the one above of his remarks on jihad; he says that we selectively edited his remarks to — you guessed it — take him “out of context” and make it appear as if he is endorsing jihad against non-Muslims (this is not the same as the audio above, it just has the same cover photo):
White shakes his head when Qadhi mentions our names, clearly in sympathy with Qadhi being victimized by us dastardly Islamophobes. There are just a few problems with this: neither Pamela Geller nor I had anything to do with the production or publication of that audio file. Nor did we, as Qadhi further claims in that video, sic lawyers on him when he tried to get it taken down from YouTube. As anyone can see and as James White could have and should have verified, that audio file was put on YouTube by Americans for Peace and Tolerance, a group I admire but with which I have no affiliation. Nor is Qadhi truthful when he says that the audio was selectively edited so as to give a false impression of his words: in its note on that audio file, APT gives a link to Qadhi’s entire lecture, and notes the timestamps of when he discusses relevant topics. That’s odd behavior if the group really wanted to conceal what Qadhi actually said.
It’s ironic: White, in this lengthy video, scolds people for supposedly not being fair to Qadhi, falsely claims that my intention was to portray Qadhi’s words inaccurately, and self-righteously admonishes Christians that they have to be fair to Muslims even in disagreement. Then he sits by sympathetically as Qadhi lies about Pamela Geller and me, as well as about his own words. I wrote White about this several months ago; he responded contemptuously and refused to correct the record.
In light of White’s manifest credulity in the face of Qadhi’s distortions and outright lies, it is no surprise that he is led around by the nose in Olive Branch, Mississippi. White praises himself, saying that Muslims have come up to him and thanked him for attempting to portray their faith accurately:
That’s wonderful. It is indeed of cardinal importance, if one is writing about Islam or anything else, to portray it accurately. But White’s naivete is touching: are Muslims thanking him for portraying their faith accurately really evidence that he has actually done so? In Islam, it is considered a good thing to conceal the faults of a fellow Muslim, as Muhammad is depicted as saying: “The servant who conceals the faults of others in this world, Allah would conceal his faults on the Day of Resurrection” (Sahih Muslim 6267). The ordinary understanding of slander in the West is that it involves making false charges that defame another person. But in Islamic law, the definition of slander doesn’t involve falsehood. The Shafi’i manual of Islamic law Umdat al-Salik defines “slander” as “to mention anything concerning a person that he would dislike.” Nothing is said about whether or not what is said is true — only that the person would dislike it. Is it possible that the Muslims who thanked White were happy with him because he didn’t slander Islam, i.e., he didn’t reveal what they didn’t want known?
Let’s see. In this segment, Qadhi claims that the Islamic State (ISIS) is a wholly new thing, a phenomenon never before seen in the history of Islam: “I mean, burning people alive in cages?”
“I mean, burning people alive in cages?” He is claiming that was never known before in Islam? What about the followers of Tulayha ibn Khuwaylid ibn Nawfal al-Asad, who left Islam and proclaimed himself a prophet? They were burned alive during the Wars of Apostasy in the early 630s. What about the eleven Catholic monks who were burned alive for proselytizing among Muslims in North Africa in 1272? In the 1590s, the English traveler Fynes Moryson noted that Muslims burned apostates and blasphemers alive: “A Turke forsaking his Fayth and a Christian speaking or doing anything against the law of Mahomett are burnt with fyer.” A later traveler, John Braithwaite, wrote in the 1720s that apostates were burned alive: “Those that can be proved after Circumcision to have revolted, are stripped quite naked, then anointed with Tallow, and with a Chain about the Body, brought to the Place of Execution, where they are burnt.” In Morocco in 1792, 50 Jews were burned alive for refusing to convert to Islam. And on and on and on. There are so many examples of this as to place the Islamic State’s burnings squarely within Islamic tradition. But White just sits there and lets Qadhi lie. Yes, it’s a discussion, not a debate, but does this mean that Qadhi is just allowed to lie with impunity?
The lies continue in this segment:
Qadhi here claims that al-Qaeda and ISIS “are not primarily using this one verse” and “barely use this verse,” that is, Qur’an 9:5, and he falsely claims that “90 percent” of jihadi rhetoric is political, not religious. They certainly discuss political issues, especially in order to justify defensive jihad, but they also couch all of their arguments in Islamic theological concepts. And it’s false that al-Qaeda doesn’t use this verse: Osama bin Laden made clear the importance of this verse in a sermon broadcast by Al-Jazeera on the first day of the Muslim holy day Eid al-Adha, the Feast of Sacrifice. The sermon began, “Praise be to Allah who revealed the verse of the Sword to his servant and messenger, in order to establish truth and abolish falsehood.” The “verse of the sword” is the name in Islamic tradition for Qur’an 9:5. Al-Qaeda cofounder Abdullah Azzam, in his Defence of the Muslim Lands, quotes Ibn Abidin, a nineteenth-century Islamic jurist, explaining the Qur’an’s stages of development in jihad teaching, and then adds: “Then, they were ordered to fight with conditions, when the sacred months had passed: ‘Then when the sacred months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have past, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them.'” This is a quote from 9:5.
Qadhi also claims that no non-Muslim has ever been killed for trying to enter Mecca. In fact, as recently as 2007, some French non-Muslims were killed on the way to Mecca.
Finally, in this video, White claims that there are powerful forces trying to make sure that Muslims and Christians don’t talk to each other. These nameless nefarious forces, according to White, have no regard for the truth, and are using someone White considers an adversary, someone who called him a “Useful Idiot.” These forces supposedly, according to White, supplied this man with his talking points against White and his noble endeavors at Muslim/Christian dialogue. These forces, White says, have political and financial motives — he echoes Islamic supremacists in suggesting that critics of Islam are just in this wonderful life-threatening, reputation-ruining business for the money (what money?). How he professes to know the motives of these unnamed people, he does not bother to explain.
Whoever White has in mind as these nefarious forces (and I think I know, and I think you do, too), they are absolutely right: White is a Useful Idiot par excellence, in his credulity, naivete, and ignorance of Islamic theology, law and history allowing himself to be used by the deceptive jihadist Qadhi. I am all for genuine dscussion between Christians and Muslims, but that means that the Christians are informed participants, not gullible fools having their pockets picked by jihadist sharpies. James White is a living, walking object lesson in the dangers of Muslim/Christian “dialogue” when pursued by uninformed and naive Christians, and particularly when pursued by uninformed and naive Christians with a fatuous confidence in their own knowledge and righteousness.
(Thanks to Worldview Weekend.)
KrazyKafir says
With super dhimmis like this hapless minster, Islam doesn’t need Jihad
mortimer says
Islam contains an intolerant, discriminatory doctrine that is ‘ESSENTIAL’, DEFINED, LEGALLY BINDING, PRECISE and OFFICIAL.
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ – (Allegiance and Disassociation) is an Islamic doctrine that is very similar to apartheid, but more severe.
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ is an ‘essential doctrine’ (usul ud-deen). ‘Essential’ means that all Muslims must believe and practice al Walaa wal Baraa as a condition of being admitted to paradise.
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ is a highly developed, well-supported and canonical part of Islam approved by the consensus of Islamic jurists.
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ is legally binding and obligatory upon all Muslims.
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ is precisely defined by Islamic jurists and is not a nebulous idea
• ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ is an official Islamic doctrine and considered the second most important doctrine in Islam.
Definition of ‘Al Walaa wal Baraa’ from Islamic sources:
• from “The Islaamic Concept of al-Walaa’ wal-Baraa’” by Khalid El-Gharib: …“[iv] to show enmity to those who show enmity to Allaah and His Messenger” (i.e. Muslims are to visibly demonstrate their enmity or towards the kufaar – non-Muslims)
• from a lecture given by Sheikh Abdullah al-Faisal (H.A.): “The implication of al-Baraa is that one HATES for the sake of Allah (SWT)…Al-Baraa means to recognize who your enemies are and to HATE them and EXTERMINATE them in their Endeavour to get rid of your Deen, al-Islam…Al-Baraa is to HATE the people who propagate Baatil (falsehood)—the Muslim should HATE them and (at least desire to) KILL them when the time comes.” (i.e. the hatred of Muslims toward the kufaar is for the purpose of ethnic cleansing)
Examples of Baraa from Historic Islamic Leaders:
• from Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624): “The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.”
• from ibn Taymiyya, “Book of Emaan”: “… true believers show animosity and hatred towards disbelievers and never support them.”
• from Umar Sulayman ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ashqar, “Belief in Allah”: “The Muslim should regard the Kuffaar as enemies and hate them because of their kufr, just as he hates their kufr (disbelief) itself.”
Malcolm (South Afric) says
Just in brief : A mosque in a residential area happened to be under criticism, from neighbors, for its early morning wailing through their loudspeaker system.
In this uproar of letter complaints to newspapers. The imam announced to the media that a pigs head was found at the door of the mosque,
A meeting was held with the Imam and Christian clergy, where a joint statement was issued condemning Islamophobia and the attack on the mosque, notwithstanding this, a letter from the bishop was read out to the congregation with the same sentiments.
The complaints stopped the culprits never found, (probably the muslims at the mosque)
This strategy to shut out genuine complaints work.
I leave you with this link to ponder.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/06/14/islam-and-the-church-have-islamists-hijacked-the-discussion/
Malcolm (South Afric) says
Here are two short clips to consider.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcudICTOSFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHCFzdjiNnE
Dave Flang says
New Islamic Mosque–Dedicated to the Virgin Mary
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2015/06/new-islamic-mosque-dedicated-to-the-virgin-mary/
Malcolm (South Afric) says
Thanks Dave Flang nothing new there, the last sentence is what we Catholics need to proclaim boldly in truth. Jesus is divine.
gravenimage says
Dave, *surely* you realize that the Muslim Maryam is little like the Virgin Mary, and that–especially–that the Muslim “Isa” is *nothing* like the Jesus of the Gospels?
The Muslim “Jesus” is not only not the Savior, he is not a healer or a peacemaker, either.
In fact, the mail role of “Isa” is to *kill Christians* in the Last Days.
As you can see, there is no contradiction in naming a Mosque after Maryam and destroying images of the Virgin Mary–nor of slaughtering Christians.
rachel hess says
So true!
Ken says
Our differences are everything! Except our Satan is their god.
Thanks for letting me latch on KrazyKafir so I could get to the top 🙂
Dave says
White is your typical ignorant Loon Like the Pope. And Like Jihadis , I was pleased when they managed to do jihadi attack in the vatican !
May allah help the jihadi kill the dumb Left/Liberal Loony dodos.
Dodos were dumbest bird and so they died out. Its survival of the fittest. Start by denying voting rights to pro-Islam Left/Liberal Loons and better yet deport them to muslim countries since they love muslims so much..
Tyler says
So lemme get this right… you think Islam is a religion of violence and so to express your disdain you wish all of them would be killed… you don’t see the glaring irony of wishing that those who disagree with you would be slaughtered…?
mortimer says
Clueless appeaser.
gravenimage says
+1
Robert says
Sad state of affairs for James White. He has been very helpful in defending Christianity in other ways. But, based on your close analysis of his chat with the Imam, it’s clear that White is being less than helpful in his dialogue with this Muslim teacher.
david brainerd says
he defends calvinism (islam pretending to be christianity) not christianitu
gravenimage says
David, I have my issues with Calvinism, but it it is *not* Islam.
JD Ellis says
Ha ha ha! Calvinism is Islam pretending to be christianity? Ha hahaaahah!!!!!! That’s hilarious! Hoohaw!
mortimer says
Pastor James White ignores the WIDER CONTEXT of hate in Islam directed towards the DIRTY KUFAAR. Is he aware of AL WALAA WAL BARAA, the ‘essential’ doctrine of HATING KAFIRS FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH?
Al Walaa wal Baraa is ‘essential for salvation’. Muslims who do not believe and practice the HATRED OF and DISASSOCIATION from the DIRTY KUFAAR are ‘hypocrites’ who will go to hell.
The Kufaar according to the Qur’an are Najis, dirty or unclean. Verse 9:28 O you who believe! The pagans are nothing but (najis) unclean, so they shall not approach the sacred Mosque… Allah not only refers to an entire group of humanity as unclean but forbids them from entering Islamic places of worship. The term ‘Dirty Kufaar’ has thus become a commonly used derogatory term used by Muslims, even in song, to denigrate non-Muslims. The word ‘najis’ according to etymologists means unclean, dirty, polluted and impure.
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (K.8:55)
O Ye who believe! truly the polytheists are unclean (najas)…Taubah, 28
It’s interesting that this verse is used to ban all non-Muslims from entering Mecca, even though it only mentions that polytheists (mushriks) are unclean, not the Ahlul Kitab.
Pastor White, LEARN and MASTER the teaching of AL WALAA WAL BARAA.
Julie says
Thank you very much for your insightful comments.
Cretius says
White is typical of the useful idiots that Muslims exploit successfully. The damage such Muslim propaganda does among the ignorant and liberal left is great. We cannot relent on challenging such misinformation at every turn.
rachel hess says
Thank you!!!
Noor al-Amriki says
I have had plenty of exposure to ‘Dr.’ White since I was once Catholic. He is an egotistical blowhard who got a doctorate from a diploma mill. He knows nothing and it is sad so many look to him for truth.
rachel hess says
Thank you!!
Peter Hyatt says
This is not James White’s first rodeo with being outrageous. It won’t be his last, either. These things, once embarked upon, have a tendency towards growth in unbelief.
Benedict says
The apostle Peter:
“But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.” –
And that shows in a miniature the difference between the God of the Christian gospel and his true apostle, and the Allah of the unholy Qur’an and his self-aggrandizing and self-serving “prophet” and messenger.
A Christian minister should understand that.
Ciudadano says
The Iman’s “contextualization” of Sura 9 is so ridiculous. The iman accepts that the threat to kill all the polytheists sounds harsh, but they were given 4 months to move out of Meca and at the end nobody was killed. Well, maybe because they were well aware of the fate of other people that didn’t accepted Mohamed like the Qurayza Jews in Medina.
Even if you accept the Iman’s argument it is still sinister.
Richard Bushey says
The worst charge you bring against White is “shaking his head, seeming sympathetic.” Everything mentioned is so mild as to not even be worth pointing out.
Robert Spencer says
Seriously? Did you actually read it? Qadhi lied about the provenance of this video, claiming that Pamela Geller and I were behind it. White never attempted to correct this. Qadhi lied repeatedly about Qur’an 9:5, about non-Muslims entering Mecca, and more. White said nothing. I suggest you read the whole thing.
gravenimage says
Very true. White is enabling Jihad here.
rachel says
Robert- you are such a brave awesome man!!! Love you so much
Julie says
Robert- You have many supporters. I appreciate your hard work! Thank you.
Benedict says
“Christian minister James White has “kindred spirit” in jihadi imam Yasir Qadhi.” –
Sure! They could easily get along in the same nest:
https://youtu.be/7BmGROmnrUA
– its called replacement theology.
Irene Brekelmans says
By now, Robert, Mortimer and all the other people who wrote their comments, I think there is a whole plan made years ago, and everybody will use everybody to get the power and money, and to decimate a lot of people on earth.
There is no way that so many people are still so blind and not woken up, no way, or I have lived between the most stupid people and governments and councils and preachers. It is almost impossible, or nobody watches video’s, which is mostly the case, people don’t want to know the truth.
May be it was all in the plans of the New World Order, but something very sinister is going on.
What do you people think? Pls your comments
RichardL says
no conspiracy. It is simply laziness and emotivism.
James says
What I think is, that:
1. People can, in good faith, look at the same set of facts, and come to opposite conclusions about them.
2. One needs to be very slow to tear strips off those who reach opposite conclusions; that they do so, does not automatically mean they are knaves or fools.
gravenimage says
Dear James, this is not a negligible disagreement–James White is *enabling violent Jihad*, which leads to our oppression and murder–this is not a small thing, nor a minor moral failing.
rachel says
minister james white- (no need to capitalize, you deserve no proper grammar from me you’re a phony)
How much did they pay you???? You are nothing more than a modern day judas iscariot, you sold the church Jesus Christ for $30 pieces of silver!!! God will judge you for the evil that is truly embedded in your heart! You sorry ordained minister! How dare you put hate behind your alter to discuss dialogue that is crippling the world through lies!! One way or another this message will get to you! You would be better to the ministry if you’de move to Seattle,sit in a coffee shop, and waste the time and ear of whom ever is bored enough to listen to your rhetoric! Don’t you dare use the pulpit you crook!!!! Sincerely, a 38 year old woman whom loves the Lord with all heart, who’s Native American, & I will not stand by and watch our country slip through my fingers! Rachel
gravenimage says
Irene, I agree with Richard.
I live in the San Francisco bay area, and probably the majority of people here are in denial about the threat of Jihad.
Most of these people are not in positions of power, and they are not members of some shadowy “New World Order”–they just don’t *want* to believe that Islam is a threat. They feel much happier believing that Islam is a “religion of peace” and that Muslims who want to come here are just needy refugees.
Most of them will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid being exposed to the truth about Islam.
RichardL says
As ever, I admire Robert for his saintly patience. There are many idiots and evil people and very few with phronesis. That reformed baptist is an idiot befriending evil. I can’t even watch these videos more than a few seconds.
Dave Flang says
James White exposed by Will Kinney’s Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qM-XkAcMzI&list=PLHVzHmC8eh9M751LfmC1NmHcsxyz-3se
A Muslim and The Modern Translations
Corrupt translations aid Muslims, LDS, JWs, 7th Day, Rome, etc
http://www.warneveryone.com/muslim_and_bible_translations.htm
gravenimage says
Christian minister James White has “kindred spirit” in jihadi imam Yasir Qadhi
………………………….
Apologia for the most horrifying evil. James White is the worst kind of dhimmi tool.
SK says
Did you see my post below? I am of the opinion that whatever is going on here is not quite the played-straight dhimmitude we’re used to.
gravenimage says
I replied to you blow, SK.
gravenimage says
Sorry for the type–that should be “below”.
gravenimage says
Ouch–that would be “typo”. Things are bad when you misspell “typo” in your typo correction…
Tyler says
If your neighbor was a Muslim, would you have him over for dinner to share the love of Jesus and the gospel with him and his family?
Even IF ISIS was representative or “all Islam” should we not risk our very lives to share the gospel with them? Did Paul not go into hostile anti-Christian territories and eat and meet with gentiles to be all things to all people? Would you risk your life to share the gospel with an imam? Or are they too sinful for grace?
James says
@Tyler: Well said.
Linda (Ontario,Canada) says
Amen.
gravenimage says
Tyler, James White is not trying to teach Yasir Qadhi about the love of Jesus; he is trying to pretend that he is not an advocate of Jihad terror, and is excoriating those who dare notice it.
Jesus did indeed reach out to sinners; he did not pretend that their evil was a good thing.
Tyler says
Graven –
I don’t see how White is “pretending that their evil is a good thing” but rather is honestly and accurately engaging in polemics with Islam and the various views within it. It would be as if a Muslim engaged Christians and accused them all of being Irish IRA terror driven ideologues and then someone says “well actually if you understand Christianity, there is a lot of diversity of views and that extemism isn’t representative of all of them. So we should address each Christian according to the beliefs that they themselves profess.”
That’s just intellectual honesty and something I can almost guarantee you would expect of anyone engaging with your beliefs. Should we not have integrity and do unto others in the same way?
In addition, every debate with a Muslim that I have ever heard, he takes the opportunity to dismantle their theology, show that it is false, point to Christ and proclaim that gospel to them that salvation is in Christ alone. This is not compromise. This is reasonable evangelism in the gentleness and honesty of 1 Peter 3:13-17.
Gentleness and respect and love to neighbors and unbelievers is not condemned in the NT, but causing division and back biting and slander and division are. Ask yourself what is more in line with the fruit of the Spirit and the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to love our enemies even as we love ourselves – charitably but firmly engaging with those who disagree and sharing the gospel or insulting, demeaning, and slandering a fellow brother who is risking his own safety to share the gospel with Muslims?
gravenimage says
Tyler wrote:
Graven –
I don’t see how White is “pretending that their evil is a good thing” but rather is honestly and accurately engaging in polemics with Islam and the various views within it. It would be as if a Muslim engaged Christians and accused them all of being Irish IRA terror driven ideologues and then someone says “well actually if you understand Christianity, there is a lot of diversity of views and that extemism isn’t representative of all of them. So we should address each Christian according to the beliefs that they themselves profess.”
…………………………..
Tyler, there are–with respect–a few problems here. Firstly, Christianity *doesn’t* teach terrorism, but Islam *does*.
Moreover, Yasir Qadhi is not just Muslim–he is openly Salafist. Many of his students have turned to waging violent Jihad, and his mentor is in prison for openly preaching Jihad. He preaches Shari’ah–the brutal “complete package” of Islam.
He is for the strict segregation of the sexes and the banning of music and dogs. He hates secular democracy. He hates Jews and wants to see the destruction of Israel.
More:
That’s just intellectual honesty and something I can almost guarantee you would expect of anyone engaging with your beliefs. Should we not have integrity and do unto others in the same way?
…………………………..
I don’t believe excoriating honest people–Robert Spencer, in this case–for calling out savagery is indicative of “integrity”, I’m afraid.
More:
Gentleness and respect and love to neighbors and unbelievers is not condemned in the NT, but causing division and back biting and slander and division are. Ask yourself what is more in line with the fruit of the Spirit and the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to love our enemies even as we love ourselves – charitably but firmly engaging with those who disagree and sharing the gospel or insulting, demeaning, and slandering a fellow brother who is risking his own safety to share the gospel with Muslims?
…………………………..
I don’t believe that if one fails to laud a vicious Jihadist as a “kindred spirit” that one is engaging in “slander”, or how condemning the taking of Christians’ property and lives in violent Jihad is “division” or “backbiting”.
And clearly, White has no concerns about division or backbiting in slandering good people like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller–nor do you yourself appear to care about this.
D.E says
The issue is he was allowed to come into a Church and speak about Islam without being challenged for every potential falsehood or distortion and, therefore, participated in the misleading of believers. Many believe that this was in direct violation of scripture. Check out Keith Thompson’s video pointing out the problems with White’s dialogue.
Also, reaching out and loving Muslims does not have to include letting them spread their beliefs (largely unchallenged) before believers in a Church setting.
Jean says
Exactly!!! I’ve followed Dr White for years, but his refusal to recognize that Islam is a violent religion greatly troubled me. And no we bringing an I am into a church to speak is like Elijah bringing their prophets of Baal into their temple to sacrifice to their god. I can no longer support Dr White. I’m concerned about where his ministry is headed.
Christine says
@Tyler” If your neighbor was a Muslim, would you have him over for dinner to share the love of Jesus and the gospel with him and his family?” Sadly most people would not. They are filled with hate and fear of Muslim people and yet they proudly call themselves “christian”. Hate the religion, not the people. They were born into this religion and most have never been exposed to Gods Truth
How can we reach those that we do not speak to? I strongly suspect that most of the people who have commented have no Muslim friends, have never invited a Muslim neighbour into their home, have never had a conversation with a Muslim and actually hate all Muslims. May the Lord have mercy on them for hating His image bearers.
We need to show the love of Christ in our interactions with those who do not know Him. I have Muslim neighbours and friends and we often share meals and visit each other and we discuss our faiths. I am always surprised at how little they know about Christianity. So many have never heard the gospel and if we don’t share it in love and through friendship, who will? Living in the UK, gives me plenty of opportunities to interact positively with Muslims and share my faith.I thank the Lord for this mission field.
gravenimage says
Christine wrote:
Living in the UK, gives me plenty of opportunities to interact positively with Muslims and share my faith.
………………………….
Did the victims in Manchester and at London Bridge have an opportunity to “interact” with Muslims? They sure did.
If British policies don’t change, you and your neighbors will have many more such opportunities to interact with pious Muslims…
Rick says
Tyler, the question isn’t whether you would risk your life to share the gospel with a Muslim. The question is whether you would pretend that Islam is less evil and dangerous than it is to reach that Muslim. And would you be occupying the moral high ground if your outreach to Muslims cost the lives of your non-Muslim neighbor? If they die because of your reckless virtue signaling, isn’t their blood on your hands?
If you want to risk your life and spread the gospel to Muslims, they are all over the Middle East. Tell us how it went when you return (IF you return).
jewdog says
This is when Love Thy Neighbor meets Bamboozle The Infidel. I’m not a racist, but sometimes White is scary.
St. Manuel II Palaiologos says
He’s a Protestant Calvinist heretic. This is no surprise.
James says
He is a Christian, and therefore, to be treated as one would like to be treated by him (St Luke, IIRC).
James says
To be precise: http://biblehub.com/luke/6-38.htm
Elisha says
Is that you, Mr White? You quote out of context our Lord speaking of judging others. RS is exposing JW who is treading a dangerous path, and whose very dedication to our Lord is in question in light of his arrogant rejection of RS’s attempt at dialogue with him. It is right to treat JW with GREAT suspicion until he demonstrates otherwise. I see the same thing in most Calvinists-pride, arrogance, wilful sin and contempt for fellow believers. I humbly put it to you that you have much to contemplate and learn.
God bless.
gravenimage says
James, do you believe that if you are nice to James White and ignore his apologia for Jihad savagery that he will stop doing it? This is rarely how things work…
PissLam says
Whenever a Muzzi promotes Qadhi as a respected moderate Islamic (Satanic) Scholar, I provide these videos to counter their nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mXbp5sTiM0
US Imam preaching theft, rape and murder of Christians and Jews in the US
This second video is rather telling as this proponent of jihad celebrates piracy, warring and enslaving in the name of his god, Satan.
https://youtu.be/rAkyf8-yIpE
Islamic Scholar on Ramadan as the Month of Historic Victories ~Shaykh Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 3 Jun 2016
gravenimage says
Thanks for the links, PissLam.
SAM says
Islam is just like alcoholism. Alcoholics can not funcion without enablers. Enablers of Alcholics get as sick as the alcoholic with the difference being: enablers blame themselves and alcoholics never blame themselves but everyone else and the whole world. You can not help either the enabler or the alcoholic unless somehow they can look at themselves objectively for their illness which is very rare as otherwise they would not have had the problem in the first place.
In summary Muslims and enablers can not be helped as they do not have or lost the ability to look at things critically.
We infidels can not wait for Muslims and enablers to understand Islam is a piece of garbage and they are mentally disturbed bastards. They are killing us. We need to fight back. Now!!!!!
Tyler says
Or we follow the scriptural mandates and turn the other cheek and share the gospel with them and realize that the gospel is EVERY tribe of the earth – even Muslims.
gravenimage says
Tyler, how is James White doing this? Instead, he is spouting apologia for Jihad.
A good example of someone who reaches out to Muslims without condoning Jihad is David Wood.
Tyler says
As an apologist, I don’t recognize your use of the term “apologia.” An apologia is a defense of a position as the most reasonable and true belief. White is clearly debating them precisely because he believes that all forms should of Islam are false. Have you ever seen actually a watched the debates? Can you give me a link and a time stamp where White gives an apologia (a defense for truth and superiority of a view) for Islam or Jihad?
If not then your comment seems like intentional slander and falsehood. Something the Bible expressly condemns. Are you bearing false witness against White? Can you give actual evidence to support your assertion that he is giving an apologia FOR Jihad?
gravenimage says
Tyler wrote:
As an apologist, I don’t recognize your use of the term “apologia.” An apologia is a defense of a position as the most reasonable and true belief.
…………………………………
Tyler, it depends on what the apologia *is for*. If it is for, say, Christianity or Western democracy, then this is good and true. An example of this is David Wood’s Acts 17 Apologetics.
If the apologia is for, say, Islam or Fascism, then it is *not* reasonable or true.
Here is the definition of the word:
ap·o·lo·gi·a
noun
a formal written defense of one’s opinions or conduct.
As you can see, this term does not only apply when one’s opinion or conduct is good and true.
More:
White is clearly debating them precisely because he believes that all forms should of Islam are false. Have you ever seen actually a watched the debates? Can you give me a link and a time stamp where White gives an apologia (a defense for truth and superiority of a view) for Islam or Jihad?
…………………………………
In the first video at 1:07, White says he considers Qadhi a “kindred spirit” in his search for truth, despite the fact that this search has led him to condone the robbing and slaughter of Christians and other unbelievers.
At 1:30 and at 2:40, he asks “how can we live together?” and “how can we get along?”, never once revealing that the only way Muslims can get along with Christians is if they completely submit to Islam.
At 1:50 he refers to there being “fear on both sides”–even though it is Muslims butchering Christians, whereas Christians present no violent threat to Muslims.
He also refers to “misunderstandings on both sides”–never once mentioning that Muslim misunderstandings about things like the Trinity lead Muslims to murder Christians.
Whereas, the “misunderstanding” most Christians have about Islam is that it is less violent than it is.
At 2:15, he enjoins Christians “do not have fear of these people [Muslims]–effectively sneering at anyone who is concerned about Muslims raping and mass murdering us.
In the second video Qadhi opens by openly preaching that Jews and Christians are “polytheists” who practice Shirk, and that this is the greatest of all evils. Notice he has no such problems with Muslims slaughtering Jews and Christians.
At :49 he openly says that Muslims can wage violent Jihad against Jews and Christians in order to establish Tawhid. At 1:05 he quotes “I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that only Allah is worthy of worship”.
At 1:20 he says that the “life and property of Mushrikeen (“polytheists”) holds no value in Jihad”–in other words, that Muslims can slaughter Jews and Christians and other non-Muslims with impunity.
He then says that these victims will only become “protected” from Muslims *if they convert to Islam*.
James White did not counter this–he still appears to consider this advocate for oppression and outright murder to be a “kindred spirit”.
One might think that James White just doesn’t want to say anything “impolite” to anyone–not even those preaching murder.
One would be mistaken.
In the third video White excoriates not anything Qadhi had to say, but Robert Spencer for daring to speak out against such utter evil.
He sneers at the idea that Qadhi considers Jews and Christians filthy–and implies that these were views he might have held in the past–but then Qadhi refers to Jews and Christians as “Najis” in the second video. What does “Najis” mean? It means filthy.
At 1:45 he notes that Qadhi’s calling is to speak to the Ummah–that is, to other Muslims. He does not note that what he believes he is “called” to preach is that filthy Jews and Christians are engaged in the worst thing that humans can do, and that hence they can be robbed and murdered.
He denies–as is clearly false–that Qadhi was always “respectful”–this is only true if you think someone calling you filthy and vowing to murder you is “respectful”.
In the next video, James White actually parses Qadhi’s statements about Jews and Christians being “Najis” and that they are fair game to murder.
He expresses *no issue* with these horrifying tenets of Islam. He–disturbingly–chuckles over the hideous Islamic State, claiming that not all Muslims consider this a legitimate Caliphate.
Two problems here; firstly, all too many Muslims *do* consider the Islamic State to be the Caliphate, and these pious Muslims have been butchering Jews, Christians, and other Infidels in its name.
And then, he clearly has no trouble with the concept in general–if enough Muslims recognized the position of the Islamic State, would he be fine with Muslims slaughtering unbelievers?
Christians have no such tenets for murdering non-Christians–yet he considers someone who lauds this as a “kindred spirit”. *Ugh*.
He goes on to imply that since Muslims don’t agree on who the Caliph is–a *very* iffy proposition historically–that Jihad basically does not occur.
Tell that to the 270 million victims of Jihad, and those who live under Muslim conquest to this day.
He then goes on to claim that Christians should not be offended that Muslims call unbelievers filthy–that it is no different from Christians who believe that those who have not found Jesus are “unclean”.
Firstly, I have found essentially no Christians who characterize unbelievers in this manner. Far worse, though, is White leaving out the part where Muslims who consider others “filthy” *may murder them*. There is *nothing* like this in Christianity.
He then says that mentioning this is “poisoning” people’s attitudes to the horrific ideas of Qadhi–which are mainstream Islam.
He then says that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all agree about idolatry making people “filthy”–without noting that Muslims consider Jews and Christians to be idolaters, nor–as is most important–that Muslims can hence murder them.
Then Qadhi goes on to praise White for his apologia for Qadhi’s savagery. Of course he does–what Muslim doesn’t appreciate dhimmitude? He also refers to White as a “kindred spirit” here–but just in his submitting to Islamic savagery.
In the second to last video, Qadhi refers to the quote, “kill them wherever you find them” as “the verses of ISIS”. Of course, this is false: this is Qur’an 9:5, the penultimate Sura of the Qur’an.
This is not a “verse of ISIS”–it is a verse of orthodox Islam.
Qadhi then talks about how frustrated he is that Infidels only ever ask him about Jihad–without, of course, ever denying that Muslims can slaughter Infidels. In fact, he *confirmed* this very thing at some length here.
He then says we have seen nothing like ISIS in Islamic history–and absolute lie. Muslims have invaded, conquered, and slaughtered Infidels all over the world, as well as having imposed savage Shari’ah law in many places.
The only reason this was lessened somewhat over the past couple of hundred years was the rise of the free West and its influence in abolishing slavery and blunting some of the aggression of Islam.
But event this did not prevent horrors like the Armenian Genocide. Similar genocide of Christians is going on right now–not just in the Islamic State, but throughout the Muslim Middle East.
In the last video, Qadhi claims that 95% of Jihad is waged on legitimate political grounds, and makes no reference to Islam at all. This is clearly false, and–again–White says nothing.
Instead, he actually spouts apologia for the horror of Sura 9:5, claiming that its context excuses it–never, unsurprisingly, saying what that “context” might be.
Then, Qadhi lies outright, saying no one has ever been killed for being an unbeliever and entering Mecca. Does he think we can’t think back just ten years?
Again, White says nothing.
More:
If not then your comment seems like intentional slander and falsehood. Something the Bible expressly condemns. Are you bearing false witness against White? Can you give actual evidence to support your assertion that he is giving an apologia FOR Jihad?
…………………………………
I parsed this at some length above.
The idea that calling out apologia for evil is opposed to what the Bible teaches is *entirely* mistaken.
“Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil”
–Isaiah 5:20
“Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good”
–Romans 12:9
Considering someone who wants to slaughter innocent people a “kindred spirit” is *not* good.
traci94 says
I am tired of this Muslim/Christian “dialogue”. Don’t these ministers/priests see what Muslims are doing to Christians around the world? “Dialogue” is seems to be something done only in the west when we don’t face persecution; do these Christians being persecuted around the world get to engage in dialogue? I am a Christian, and I’m a little familiar with James White, but from the little I know about him, I’ve never really liked him. He just comes across as very arrogant to me. And if he was not open to Robert’s letter correcting him on some things, then that only proves my point.
gravenimage says
Good point, Traci–there is no “interfaith dialog” in Dar-al-Islam.
traci94 says
ps…I think one of the very first things that people should know about Islam is the prominence and promotion of deception (taqiyya) in the religion. I’m not a scholar by any means, but if one knows that another religion promotes deception in furthering it’s cause, I think it would (or should) cause one to proceed very cautiously in these so called “dialogues”. I just really don’t get it – I think a person has to be willfully blind to not make the connection between violence and Islam. How can one faith be so “misunderstood” so often and in the exact same way (I know I’m saying what Robert says so much)? With Islam’s history of mistreatment and violence towards Christians up through even today, why do Christians think that these Imans/ Muslims are even worthy of having a dialogue?
SK says
I know I am a bit late, but what’s crazy about this is that I have heard of James White, but never thought he was anything like that. I had heard of his thing with Ergun Caner, but I decided to look into some podcast thing he has. I didn’t really bother to go through the whole thing for any of them, but he doesn’t seem like your everyday kind of Islamodefender:
From June 2015, Anjem Choudhary discussion 45:00 in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBby84KboLbHiQEuvQK37IhLGlsUT67gO¶ms=OAFIAVi_AQ%253D%253D&v=MXIpXZ2P16g&mode=NORMAL
June 2016, About Islamic apologetics, 6 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBby84KboLbHiQEuvQK37IhLGlsUT67gO¶ms=OAFIAVhi&v=VQYzFeSaluA&mode=NORMAL
Discussion on Surah 9, from March this year (describes it as “the most militarized Surah”), starts 76:40
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBby84KboLbHiQEuvQK37IhLGlsUT67gO&v=DbordG49Pfw
From September 2016, discussion about the use of Bart Ehrman by Muslims, and how there are double standards. Start this one about 3:00 in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBby84KboLbHiQEuvQK37IhLGlsUT67gO&v=wZWLjgVUrIg
This one is his main explanation of Islam, which seems to be geared towards sharing the gospel with Muslims, from 2013.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ag7VYU3Evt4
I don’t normally watch his thing, so I don’t understand why he’s such a big fan of that jihadi preacher guy.
Mo says
@ SK
“I know I am a bit late, but what’s crazy about this is that I have heard of James White, but never thought he was anything like that. I had heard of his thing with Ergun Caner, but I decided to look into some podcast thing he has. I didn’t really bother to go through the whole thing for any of them, but he doesn’t seem like your everyday kind of Islamodefender:”
I haven’t had the time to go through all the info posted here. But I’ve watched many of his videos and have not seen him to be an Islam defender or dhimmi at all.
I’m not sure what’s going on here. Like I said, I just haven’t had the time yet to go through it all. It makes me sad to see two people that I follow be on such opposite sides like this.
gravenimage says
SK, here is my general impression of James White–what he actually objects to is any deviation from Calvinism.
This is a very legalistic approach–he has virtually no concern about goodness and ethics at all.
Hence, in his view an entirely decent and good-hearted Catholic or Armenian Orthodox Christian–or Jew or Buddhist or Atheist–is every bit as much in error as is a Muslim who is slaughtering innocent people.
For those of us who object to the savagery of Islam on *ethical* grounds, this is moral insanity.
It also explains why he is so enraged that someone like Robert Spencer would dare to openly say that Islam is savage. I don’t think James White is pro-Islam per se, but he is also not opposed to it any more than he is to any one else who disagrees with him.
Here he is, for instance, on the subject of “Arminians”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=957Q4plInY8
Of course, Armenians represent no threat to others–would that this were true of Muslims. And yet, he rants on and on about them at length.
Auralae says
WOW Did you actually watch that video, on the subject of “Arminians”??? If you didn’t, then I could understand….but if you had…you seriously need to fix yourself a nice cup of coffee, sit down and commune with the Holy Spirit for a bit and then deliberately and calmly rewatch that video. Dr. White demonstrates the precise opposite of what you’re accusing him of in that video, which *you* linked to in support of your argument against him. Btw Armenians were an early Christian civilization–slaughtered by Islamists…while Arminians are Christians who believe salvation is synergistic (requires the choice and cooperation of man with God) as opposed to Calvinists, who believe salvation is monergistic (man is dead in his sin and God quickens that dead heart)
gravenimage says
I’m not at all sure what you think I got wrong, Auralae. White says he doesn’t think that “Arminians” are actual believing Christians because they have a differing view of the place of Works and Grace than he does.
From everything I have heard, White considers both civilized Armenian Christians and savage Muslims to have a “man centered” approach to religion.
He says he does not want to directly criticize “Arminianism”–just as he will not directly say anything negative about the horrors of Islam–because he might drive potential new converts to Calvinism away.
Only someone with a legalistic view–(assuming one is not Armenian oneself)–would consider these faiths equally in error.
Armenians are not harming others–would that we could say the same of Muslims.
Auralae says
gravenimage
June 19, 2017 at 8:15 pm
You seriously need to re-listen, or perhaps actually LISTEN to that linked video. It actually says the precise OPPOSITE of what you’re slandering Dr. White with. Starting at 1:40 he explains the concept of a “caged stage” where one is in danger of hurting oneself and others….he’s referring to one’s WITNESS. White literally says of Norman Geisler that he’s holding him to a higher standard–he literally uses the phrase “I’m not kicking these people out of the kingdom” (This means he’s utterly innocent of what you’ve accused him of saying) His whole point is that folks who’ve recently seen the “doctrines of grace” have to be especially careful to argue those points in LOVE with other believing Christians–at NO point does he ever even imply that Arminians aren’t fellow Christians.
“would that we could say the same of Muslims”
I think the whole point of Dr. White’s ministry toward Muslims is that Islam is harming them. Both Dr. Spencer and Dr. White agree that Mohammad was a false prophet, and that Islam is evil…perhaps Dr. White is specifically blessed with a love for the Muslim people in order to facilitate a direct ministry to them…a missionary kind of ministry….while Dr. Spencer is blessed with a special succinctness in order to deal with bureaucrats covering for Islamists and forcing PC ridiculousness down citizens throats. He certainly is a watchman! But that’s where they differ…White is going outside the city walls (so to speak) to minister to those among the enemy who may receive the call of the Holy Spirit; while Spencer is desperately warning those responsible for the defenses of those walls of this horrible impending danger that Islam is. White is a missionary, while Spencer is a watchman. Each are called by and used by God, but they are differently equipped for different missions.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
This isn’t “interfaith dialogue” (whatever that really is). It’s a one-sided bromance.
White, you fool, why don’t you just recite the shahada and be done with it!
Tyler says
As a Christian, why would he?
Charlemagne IV says
I hate to break it to you all. But Lutheran-Protestant “Christians” have had an alliance with Moslems before.
http://shoebat.com/2013/12/27/exposing-martin-luthers-love-affair-islam/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/sultan-queen-elizabeth-england-islam-jerry-brotton/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy81kh0HvzA
all the radical islamists of today have to do is brainwash the ministers like the one above so they can persuade the masses to appease with the moslem world, then it is check mate for the Western Civilization we used to know for over 2 centuries.
Elisha says
Brilliant expose, brother Robert. It fills me with joy that as a Christian you continue to stand fast and firm, not only against islam, but hypocritical, arrogant preachers like JW, who has all but confirmed his dhimmi status.
God bless.
Richard says
Only a Calvinist like James White could find so much common ground with Islam. Thankfully there are other Christians who see a huge difference between the God of the Bible and the God of Islam. By the way, can you really find any Islamic teacher who would not agree that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God?
Mike says
Interesting, I recall Mr. White’s calling to the attention of anyone he debates of his debating exploits as if to say “just give up now” and NOW he is being taken by his own vanity. Apparently “Total Depravity” doesn’t apply to Muslims in that they don’t lie when in fact, due to the human corrupt nature, lying is as easy as breathing for the people who will gladly kill to satisfy their Molech. Secondly, all the flowery language employed by Mr. White just bounces of these guys like water off a duck’s back, it has no effect whatsoever.
So, this guy is a “kindred spirit”? No, not in the least and they (White and the other guy) have NOTHING in common doctrinally…Just as the Jews are the enemy of Christianity for the sake of Christ, Muslims are the same enemy….I would almost say the Muslim is the blunt instrument of the Jew to stomp out Christianity, but that’s another discussion for another time. Yes, Mr. White is accommodating those who desire to kill Christians and by believing his own press he is causing others who would otherwise have their guards up to trust in his mistaken and foolish misunderstanding of the Muslim faith.
gravenimage says
What crap. Jews are not threatening and slaughtering Christians–Muslims are.
Todd Carter says
It is so sad to see some of the ignorant comments being made about James White. Each one of these comments is done so in an “off the cuff” response to what was presented. If any of you have not watched the complete video with White and Yasir, I highly encourage you to do so in order to be an educated in this matter. What was done in the meeting five months ago (Glad you all are so on top of current events in apologetic world), was the exact same thing that has been done in missions work for oh, the last 50 years. The exact same dialogue is what your missionaries are doing with Muslims around the world. They are engaging in dialogue where Muslims are sharing their beliefs in groups of people. The missionaries are listening and politely explaining their Christian beliefs. There isn’t a constant interruptions to point out falsehoods. There’s no debating going on.
Now many of you think that you can change the world by making snarky comments on social media or by using the bible to beat people over the head, but sometimes real change in regards to witnessing to someone of a different faith takes time in a non combative dialogue (not debate) format. That is exactly what is being done at this meeting. Both Muslims and Christians spoke openly to each other about their faith. The Gospel was presented to many Muslims with open ears because a Christian had bothered to allow a Muslim to explain his faith in his own words, rather than have someone from a different faith do it for him. This continued the second night when James White went to a Muslim mosque and had a similar dialogue with mostly Muslims. The Christians who attended were greeted warmly and given further opportunities to share the Gospel.
Knowing the parameters were clearly mentioned to the discussion before it began and near it’s conclusion, if you are afraid that a weak Christian is going to hear about what it takes to be a Muslim and is going to be lead astray, be afraid of everything because that same person could read in a book, on a website, or any place in between. I would hope that you would believe that the will of God is strong enough to hold on to his flock. Or that the person wasn’t that strong in their faith to begin with.
If you’re goal is to paint Yasir and every Muslim in the world in one giant paint brush of one belief, then you have to ask yourself. Is it ok for Muslims to tell you that the issues with the Catholic Faith are issues for all Christians? Every time someone who claims a christian faith commits murder or targets another faith, they get to pin that on all of Christianity? Or when hate groups such as the KKK attack other groups, that gets pinned on Christians as well? I think I’m ok to say that everybody in the world should get to tell you what their belief is without you dismissing them and telling them what they really believe. Wouldn’t that be the right thing to do? Are there Muslims killing innocent people in the name of Islam? Absolutely. Should other Muslims be able to reject that as an expression their faith? Yes they should. We do that. Is it fair for every non believer to point out select verses in the old testament and say that we’re serving an angry God who is heartless at times? If it’s not then why do we get to do that to Muslims?
Think about all these things before posting your thoughts. Hopefully we will all become better people Christ.
gravenimage says
Todd Carter wrote:
What was done in the meeting five months ago (Glad you all are so on top of current events in apologetic world), was the exact same thing that has been done in missions work for oh, the last 50 years.
…………………………..
Todd, you idea that all Christians consider the foul Yasir Qadhi a “kindred spirit” when he openly advocates the slaughter of Jews and Christians is *entirely* mistaken.
More:
Now many of you think that you can change the world by making snarky comments on social media or by using the bible to beat people over the head…
…………………………..
You believe that opposing Muslims slaughtering unbelievers is “snarky”, or that finding this morally repugnant is “using the bible to beat people over the head”?
More:
If you’re goal is to paint Yasir and every Muslim in the world in one giant paint brush of one belief
…………………………..
Nice to see you are on a first name basis with this savage.
No one painted his beliefs–he *himself* openly said that he believes Muslims have the right to rob and slaughter Infidels.
It sees that you–just like James White–are not offended by this bloody savagery, but just at anyone who dares to point it out. *Ugh*.
Todd Carter says
So if I asked Yasir all of these things that you are accusing him of, “openly advocating the slaughter of Christians and others”, he would agree with that definition, right? So when Qadhi repeatedly makes his condemnation of violence, because we are of a different belief, we get to tell him that his lying? And that he does not get to define his faith?
Since you seem to have all the answers, what are your suggestions of ministry to Qadhi and similar Muslims? Name call and point to their condemnation in the bible? Or spell out both the GRACE and TRUTH that Jesus came into the world to establish his kingdom?
gravenimage says
Todd Carter wrote:
So if I asked Yasir all of these things that you are accusing him of, “openly advocating the slaughter of Christians and others”, he would agree with that definition, right?
……………………………….
Todd, did you miss Qadhi’s open avowal that Christians are “filthy,” and that Muslims can seize their property and take their lives in jihad?
More:
So when Qadhi repeatedly makes his condemnation of violence, because we are of a different belief, we get to tell him that his lying? And that he does not get to define his faith?
……………………………….
Todd, Qadhi *himself* has defined his faith by openly saying that Muslims have the right to rob and kill unbelievers. I have to tell you, slaughtering Infidels is *not* indicative of a condemnation of violence.
More:
Since you seem to have all the answers, what are your suggestions of ministry to Qadhi and similar Muslims? Name call and point to their condemnation in the bible? Or spell out both the GRACE and TRUTH that Jesus came into the world to establish his kingdom?
……………………………….
The idea that Christians have to ignore or–worse–lie about the horrors of Islam in order to reach out to Muslims is entirely mistaken.
Lydia says
Then he is another apostate.
We have no fellowship with darkness!
Ephesians 5; 11
Bill Runyan says
“Nor is Qadhi truthful when he says that the audio was selectively edited so as to give a false impression of his words: in its note on that audio file, APT gives a link to Qadhi’s entire lecture, and notes the timestamps of when he discusses relevant topics.”
Anyone have a link to this?
Calvin Marshall says
You can find it here: https://aldgatepup.wordpress.com/2016/01/03/yasir-qadhi-that-shirk-audio-and-more/
Calvin Marshall says
The APT YouTube clip with note can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jC0y8hIs8&t=1s
I noticed the link to the complete audio no longer works, but you can listen using the link I provided above.
James Snapp, Jr. says
I concur 100%.
Valkyrie Ziege says
; Muhammadan friend = House variety.
Auralae says
I love both Robert Spencer and Dr. White…I’m also a huge fan of Dr. David Wood and of course Dr. Nabeel Qureshi (for whom I’m sure everyone reading this is praying) in this fan’s humble personal opinion, all these wonderful men are equipped differently to more effectively deal with multiple fronts. They are different parts of one body the head of which is our Savior and Lord Jesus who mandates us to love our enemies, while being shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
Linda (Ontario,Canada) says
Auralae,perfectly expressed,and I too love them. God bless you for your post, with blessings in Christ.
gravenimage says
David Wood–whose work I love, as well–reaches out to Muslims without believing that he has to sugarcoat the bloody horrors of Islam.
Auralae says
I don’t think Dr. White has “sugar coated” Islam. My question for you is why don’t you appear to care one whit for the millions of deceived souls under it’s brutal rule??
Islam is utterly evil, I don’t think anyone posting here doesn’t understand it to be Satanic….it makes of it’s adherents coveters, thieves, rapists, murderers and destroyers while lying to them that these actions are holy.
James Snapp, Jr. says
If I understand correctly, Qadhi’s public view differs from the public view of violent jihadists because Qadhi thinks that the use of violence in the cause of Islam is warranted only when there is a caliphate to authorize it.
And that makes him a good dialogue-partner, a mentor, and a kindred spirit?!?!
The jihadists basically say, “I call for your death and the overthrow of America,” and Qadhi basically says, “I would call for your death, and for the overthrow of America, if I had the proper authorization.” What’s the real difference (on the unlikely assumption that Qadhi is being entirely honest)?
Todd Carter says
Did Qahi basically say I would call for your death if I had the proper authorization or did he say nothing of the sort. Sorry, I have to hold people accountable to the truth. If he didn’t say that, he didn’t say it.
gravenimage says
Todd, I am not sure why you are defending Qadhi’s confirmation that Muslims can rob and slaughter Infidels.
Perhaps you did not listen to the audio links above?
Vance says
I’m glad James White recently addressed this misrepresentation of what was actually said. Spencer and many of the people posting comments completely missed what he meant by the “kindred spirit” comment. Hear him out: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2017/06/19/epiphanius-bodily-assumption-facts-observations-continued-misrepresentations-yasir-qadhi-dialogue/
Linda (Ontario,Canada) says
and this will be worth listening to also, love both of these dear brothers, and now man to man on radio they’ll debate…praise God http://drbrown.truthnetwork.com/player.lasso
Calvin Marshall says
Robert,
I’ve listened to both dialogues in full, and it seems your criticism of James is tame. Outside of the issues you’ve raised, his articulation of the Trinity and his response to how it is that God could die were misleading and rambling.
The constant belittling of other Christians as ignorant and fearful (and even at one point as “wimpy”!) and himself as informed and loving come across as self-righteous in the extreme.
Ultimately, he has turned a blind eye to reality, and his desire to see Muslims converted using this method is likely to be counterproductive (towards the end of part I, Qadhi says: “You’re not going to convert us.”)
Question: In the first dialogue James mentioned the letter to Baghdadi that Qadhi signed. In section 8b of that letter, it’s stated that that the purpose of jihad is defensive only. However, in o9.8/o9.9 of ‘Umdat as-Salik it’s implied that is also offensive (the caliph is to make war against Jews, Christians, and all other peoples). In the lecture referenced in your piece, Qadhi says that one of the purposes of jihad is to establish ‘tawheed’, which which is consistent with the ruling referenced above. Is this your take as well?
Thanks for this great piece and your continued efforts to articulate in an informed manner the critical issues of civilization that face us at this juncture in history.
-Calvin
P.S. So glad Michael Brown had you on his show with James. I have not yet listened but am looking forward to it.
Michael Hill says
The Gospel is the power of God for salvation. People whose priorities are shaped by God’s word will desire to use their lives to spread the good news, because it is only by this message that men can go from being enemies of God to being God’s children. It will be more important to them than their very lives, which will make them join with the apostle in saying, “I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.”
Could any of you who are criticizing Dr. White repeat these words of Paul with honesty? Anyone who does not share this priority has zero right to criticize Dr. White, or at least must recognize that they have fundamentally different values. So feel no need of continuing to read, those of you who care about political causes and social comfort more than you do about the spread of the message by which God saves sinners; you have not yet begun to comprehend why men like Dr. White would do ANYTHING that they do. In fact, many of you need to receive this salvation yourselves, to get down on your knees and beg God for repentance, and discover that the grace of God is available for ISIS terrorists AND self-righteous politically charged Americans, who likewise are under the wrath of God apart from the mercy that comes in the death of Jesus. To any who read this and do not know Christ, your business today is with God; and criticizing anyone else, even if it were to be deserved, needs to fall somewhat lower down on your list of things to do.
For those who DO profess the name of Jesus Christ and DO claim to care about the Gospel:
How in the world are we supposed to witness to Muslims if we won’t talk to them? If we won’t have the kind of dialogue that gives opportunity for questions of clarification, and meaningful interaction? And wouldn’t those conversations be profitable if they were on display for others, to break down barriers of hostility and ignorance, for open communication of the gospel? How are we supposed to articulate with clarity our theological distinctions (I certainly wouldn’t want to be confused with everything that calls itself “Christian” today!) if we won’t allow them to clarify theirs? How are we to be trusted, to be taken at our word if we aren’t willing to take them at theirs? And if some Muslims hide violent intentions or the extent of their radical beliefs SO WHAT? What has changed in YOUR responsibility, Christian, to communicate with compassion to even those who would mistreat you? Many Muslims are radical in their beliefs. But again, the question is not if, but HOW we share the gospel, even with those would seek to destroy us.
But what DO Muslims believe? Are there any disagreements that they would have among themselves? It would appear so! And how would one acquire a well grounded and balanced knowledge of various Islamic beliefs? Would it involve reading the Quran, the myriad of Hadith, or even seeking to learn Arabic to be able to better understand and interact with the Muslim faith? Dr. White has done all of these. Or would it even involve TALKING WITH THEM?!!! How dare you people parade yourselves as experts of TRUE Islam who have done none of these, and won’t listen to the people who actually have!
Or perhaps we could try this, and see if your conscience doesn’t condemn you:
What did YOUR last witnessing encounter with a Muslim look like? Did you tell them of the necessity of Jesus’ death, the atonement, and that if they do not turn to Christ in trust and repentance they will go to hell? Because James White does this every time he debates, and even in “inter-faith dialogues”. Doesn’t sound very ecumenical to me.
LISTEN TO THE MAN! Many of you haven’t even bothered to LISTEN TO THE DIALOGUES! Listen to his consistent message, over decades. Listen to his closing statements in the dozens of debates he has been involved in with Muslims. He presents the gospel EVERY TIME. This is because Dr. White cares about preaching the gospel to those who others won’t even bother to reach out. It would appear that many who profess Christ have found the most convenient excuse; to defend their imagined personal rights of cultural solitude over and against their debt to preach the gospel and to live in its light. It is the despicable excuse of fear, and even of hatred that keeps them from befriending those who most desperately need gospel influence.
The last thing I will say is that I am sure that Dr. White isn’t going to stop, not for all the slanderous misrepresentation you could throw at him. I am sure that he will do his best to keep this nonsense from slowing him down any more than it has. If you are not going to help in the effort to use every means possible to seek the salvation of the lost, then at least get out of this evangelist’s way. He has work to do.
Linda (Ontario,Canada) says
God bless you for that boldness and truth, Michael.
Vance says
Amen, Michael! I hope everyone who has posted here will watch Dr. White’s response to the recent interview with James Simpson on the Janet Mefferd show.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2017/07/13/little-bit-eugene-peterson-whole-lot-james-simpson/
Calvin Marshall says
Michael:
Thanks for your comments. I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I’ve followed James for quite a while and have watched some of his debates and both of the dialogues with Qadhi in full.
What’s *not* at stake here is whether Christians should engage in discussion with Muslims. You’ll notice from Robert’s piece that he is for “genuine discussion between Christians and Muslims”, and he recently offered to sit down for dialogue with Yasir Qadhi and James White (as far as I’m aware they have not responded to this offer).
James would be better to simply acknowledge the points Robert has made and move on. Unfortunately, James has doubled down by continuing to beat the “Islamophobia” drum and belittling Christians who are legitimately concerned about what’s going on in the world, thereby showing that he is turning a blind eye to the civilizational conflict that is staring the Western world in the face.
Vance says
James is not beating the “Islamophobia” drum. He is absolutely not saying, and never has said, that there is nothing to be concerned about or that the threat is not serious or widespread. He knows it is! His recent responses concern the utterly ridiculous charges that have been hurled at him. For instance, some of his critics have taken a single phrase entirely out of context and made it appear that James is going along with the “politically correct” posture of the left. Your own charge of James beating the “Islamophobia” drum is an example of misreading him. Go to his website and read his latest response to one of his critics.
Calvin Marshall says
If you listen to the 3.5 hours of dialogue with Qadhi as well as comments he has made on DL and during the Michael Brown show recently, he’s definitely beating that drum. I’m happy to hear you say he elsewhere is in fact concerned about the civilizational threat that Islam poses to the West. One would not get that impression from many things he has said.
Vance says
I didn’t interpret anything White said in the dialogue as “beating that drum.” Comments such as his “kindred spirit” one have a context, and I think you’re ignoring it. I seem to recall (from the Spencer-White debate) that Spencer said most Muslims never will engage in violent jihad. He went on to explain (rightly, I believe) that all schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree on the definition of jihad, and the debate then seemed to center on this. I’m thinking, well…so what? If most Muslims are not violent jihadists and never will engage in violent jihad, *so what* if all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree on the meaning of jihad? Does that stop millions of Muslims from defining jihad differently? No, it does not! It seems to me that Spencer and White agree on the fact that most Muslims in this country (among others) are not violent and won’t be committing violent acts in the name of their religious faith. So if this is true, why is calling attention to it “beating the ‘Islamophobia’ drum”? I don’t get it! Maybe White doesn’t understand Islamic schools of jurisprudence as well as Spencer does, but there’s still the fact that millions of Muslims want nothing to do with violence. They’re completely happy to live side-by-side, and at peace, with their Jewish and Christian neighbors. Do you deny this?
Calvin Marshall says
Vance:
I’m not referring to the “kindred spirit” comment. Please see my earlier response for where James has repeatedly referred to Islamophobes and belittled Christians for what he views as an irrational fear of Muslims.
Correct, only a small minority of Muslims are prepared to engage in actual violent jihad. Keep in mind though that the threat of Islam is not limited to its violent expression (significant as that is).
Before I go into further detail here, perhaps you can provide some clarification. Above, you say James recognizes that the spread of Islam poses a widespread, serious threat to the West (which I assume you agree with). Yet, in your last response you imply that the threat is quite limited after all. Which is it? And how exactly do you understand the threat?
By the way, have you read the Robert Spencer article above in full?
Vance says
Calvin:
You wrote, “Above, you say James recognizes that the spread of Islam poses a widespread, serious threat to the West (which I assume you agree with).”
That’s not exactly what I said, but I suppose it’s close enough. I had in mind what we’ve already seen—terrorism on the part of Muslims—and the fact that it’s not likely to go away soon. But, yes, I agree that the *spread* of Islam itself carries its own threat.
You wrote, “Yet, in your last response you imply that the threat is quite limited after all.”
I did? Perhaps I owe you a clearer explanation.
The threat I had in mind was the one all of us, including millions of Muslims, are aware of. After the 9-11 events and all the other terrorist attacks, before and since, how could we NOT know of the threat. That’s what I was referring to; but beyond that, I also recognize that a threat lies in the spread of Islam itself. The spread of Islam brings with it more of the kind of Islam we see in Islamic countries, more demands for the establishment of sharia in Islamic communities, etc. What is happening in other Western countries could happen here.
I was 100 percent in favor of Trump’s Muslim ban and never saw it as Islamophobic or anything of the sort. It was a commonsense proposal. Allowing such an influx of Muslim refugees is a huge risk, not because all or even most Muslims are bad and out to get us, but because it’s an open door to the ones that are bad and out to get us.
I think you would agree with all the above, wouldn’t you? And you also agree that, in your words, “only a small minority of Muslims are prepared to engage in actual violent jihad.” It seems to me that we’re in general agreement here.
What I read of the article above was done so through the prism of its title. I knew what White meant by the “kindred spirit” comment; the author either does not, or he used it to put White in the worst light. Could the author write a title like that and then proceed with an unbiased, objective treatment of the subject? It’s doubtful. In any case, I think Spencer’s main point was that White, in his ignorance, gave Qadhi a platform for spreading his deception. White, therefore, is a “useful idiot.” White, however, thinks that this kind of dialogue opens the doors for reaching Muslims with the gospel, and it was known by all parties, including Qadhi, that this was White’s ultimate aim.
You wrote, “Please see my earlier response for where James has repeatedly referred to Islamophobes and belittled Christians for what he views as an irrational fear of Muslims.”
I could have easily missed something, but I do not recall hearing him use the word “Islamophobes.” Perhaps he has, but I do not recall it. I *have* heard him say that some people want to treat Muslims in a way that would drive them further away, thus making reaching them with the gospel much more difficult. *That*, not people’s “irrational fear of Muslims,” has been the main focus of his reaction to criticisms.
Calvin Marshall says
Vance:
I think we’re in general agreement on the threat of Islam.
Dividing Line (ep. 6/19/17, 2nd half): James referred to “fire-breathing Islamophobes” who sell fear and build walls of fear. In the dialogue, James invited Qadhi to speak about his experience dealing with Islamophobia and then went on to describe how he himself had been a victim of Islamophobia in airport screenings.
Vance says
You’re right, then, and I was wrong. I listen to the Dividing Line regularly but missed the “fire-breathing Islamophobes” comment. Still, he is not trying to defend Islam; he’s trying to open doors for preaching the gospel to them. He wants Muslims to renounce Islam, not embrace it and be proud of it. I get the sense that many people (not you, perhaps) who have posted comments critical of his efforts think he’s just another liberal trying to defend Islam as one of many paths to God.
If I were advising him, I would tell him to avoid the word “Islamophobia” altogether. Islamophobia, like homophobia and xenophobia, has been greatly overblown, especially by the media and liberal politicians. I do not personally know any Christian who hates or fears Muslims.
Calvin Marshall says
Thanks for this response, Vance. I have followed James for quite some time and have never thought he was a liberal. I also believe he genuinely desires the conversion of Muslims.