“The ideology of jihadist Islam is the exact opposite of the idea of India.”
What is needed, and has been needed for many years now, is a global alliance of nations that are threatened by jihad.
“Fifth column: Wisdom in a dark time,” by Tavleen Singh, Indian Express, July 9, 2017:
If you are in the media and dare to say anything good about Donald Trump, you risk being called a lunatic. So it is with trepidation that I admit that I was impressed with something the American President said last week in Warsaw. His words had special resonance for me because I believe they are as relevant to India as the West. He said, “Do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any cost? Do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? Do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilisation in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it?”
He was speaking of the threat of jihadist Islam to Western, Christian civilisation and values. But almost no country needs to be more worried about jihadist Islam spreading than India, where more Muslims live than anywhere else, except Indonesia. The ideology of jihadist Islam is the exact opposite of the idea of India. What is the idea of India? The Dalai Lama defined it perfectly in a recent article in The Wall Street Journal. He wrote, “India, where I now live, has been home to the ideas of secularism, inclusiveness and diversity for 3,000 years. One philosophical tradition asserts that only what we know through our five senses exists. Other Indian philosophical schools criticise this nihilistic view but still regard the people who hold it as rishis, or sages.”
Islamism is based on the idea that if you do not accept the narrow, evil version of Islam, on which the ISIS founded its Caliphate, then you deserve to be killed. Does India have the will to stand up against this violent new interpretation of Islam? It is this will that is being tested in the Kashmir Valley and those districts of West Bengal that border Bangladesh. The violence that we saw last week in Basirhat is being treated as a problem of law enforcement. But is it? In the Kashmir Valley every time there is a violent upsurge, ‘moderate’ Kashmiri politicians say that the problem is political. But is it?
In the long years that I have reported on the movement for ‘azadi’ in Kashmir, I have seen it change from being a place where the values of India were enshrined to becoming our own little Caliphate. This change began in the early Nineties when Kashmiri Pandits were forced out of the Valley, but most of us political commentators ignored what this meant. When liquor shops and bars were forcibly closed, when video libraries were vandalised and women forced to cover their heads, we ignored these things too. If moderate Kashmiri politicians noticed what was happening, they spoke of it only in private, and today it is groups declaring openly that they fight for Allah and Islam that have taken over. So is it a political movement we are dealing with or a religious one that threatens the values enshrined in the idea of India for thousands of years?…
Richie says
Wasn’t a big reason for carving out a large chunk of India and turning it into a Muslim state (Pakistan) to give the Muslim barbarians a land of their own so they wouldn’t kill Hindus in India?
gravenimage says
But now Muslims want to take over India, as well.
The number of non-Muslims in Pakistan–Hindus, Sikhs, Christians–is now just a pitiful remnant after decades of driving them out, kidnapping and forced conversion, and outright slaughter.
Whereas, the Muslim population of India has steadily grown.
Steven RSA says
India rid itself of a violent cult before, the Thugs, with the help of Bentinck and Sleeman. They could do it again (And also the British could learn something from their countrymen named above).
Emilie Green says
“What is needed, and has been needed for many years now, is a global alliance of nations that are threatened by jihad.”
The Visegrad Group of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, is the nucleus of such an alliance. As others see the success of these four in not suffering the murdering of their citizens by Muslims, perhaps other countries will join.
Demsci says
YES! I like that group also, immensely. For me it is Western Democratic Ideology (WDI) group with a comprehensive set of Values, Tenets and Laws (VTL)
And I so agree with the Indian writer. And it was Donald Trump who said: “We write symphonies”, and then pointed out a numbers of VTL in WDI (perfectly compatible with “Indian ideas”).
What to me “threathened by Jihad” means: This WDI and its VTL!!! Perhaps not it’s very existence, but possibly in large chunks of WDI-countries, cities, districts and in large chunks of their population. Their gain is our loss! Competition and Comparison seem to be in order.
We can say to people: Look, WDI and its VTL came AFTER ISLAM and its VTL, and when it was invented, implemented that was to vehement opposition and yes, loss of power and influence of Islam.
If someone subconsciously adheres to essential VTL of WDI then already that person should be labeled “Anti Islamic”. Support for WDI VTL is being in revolt to Islamic VTL. And too much protection of Muslims and therewith Islamic VTL is detrimental for WDI VTL and people just cannot have it both ways; protecting both WDI VTL AND the vast majority of Muslims (coming into or in) WDI-nations.
Daniel Triplett says
US, Israel, UK, France, India, China, and Russia (Kaffir nuke states): Let’s end this 1400 year old mess once and for all.
Just do it.
The Fifth Estate says
Starting with nuclear jihadis i.e. Pakistan. But Pakistan is now being supported by China. China is also suffering from the menace of islamists. The current geopolitics is too much confusing even for super experts.
Daniel Triplett says
Agreed that the Pak and N Korean arsenals, along with Iranian nuke production facilities and existing warheads must all be vaped on Day One.
The Sino/Pak and Russo/Iranian relationships are disturbing. But China and Russia are equally disturbed by the US relationship with all Sunni Gulf States. We train their militaries and sell them all kinds of advanced weapons.
I don’t believe negotiating an Alliance between Kaffir nuke states would be difficult, the end result being a total divorce of Kaffir nuke states from the Ummah.
Sid says
Yes just do it.
If the tables weee turned and only Islamic states were the ones with nukes, all non Muslim states would have been nuked by now.
It is time for the leaders of the free world to wake up to the tough decision that will save human civilization before it is too late .
Daniel Triplett says
Yes, regardless of whether the West wants to admit it, this is a nuclear war now.
We can either strike first, or go down in history as the stupidest people who ever lived, and wait for the Ummah to glass Tel Aviv, Manhattan, and/or DC first.
Either way, someone’s getting nuked.
When people are pointing loaded guns at us, we’re not required to wait for them to pull the trigger before killing them first.
Kilfincelt says
Yes, we do need an alliance against Muslims who wish to force their barbaric, intolerant Islamic cult down our throats.
Tara says
Islamic Barbarians are hell bent on destroying India. They’ve butchered hundreds of millions of Hindustan for over a thousand years. I wish Islamic appeasers and all too pliant governments in Europe and North America would take the cue by familiarizing themselves with the bloody track record of the Islamic rulers in India. Instead of conniving to decimate western culture and turning the west into a grotesque, regressive and deadly caliphate.
rbla says
Writing about the plight of India at the bloody hands of the Muslim conquerors historian Will Durant wrote: “The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry.” They’re not making historians like Durant any more.
gravenimage says
Thanks for citing Will Durant, rbla.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
Mr Singh is making the same mistake so many make: he is bisecting Mohammadans into good and bad halves. There is only one uhma.
And remember, all Mohammadans are guilty of teaching their children and grandchildren that Mohammad was a super great guy and the ultimate example of behaviour. And onward into the future the terror goes (“I have been made victorious with terror.” – Mohammad (Sahi al Bukari, 4:52:220))
Halaku says
The Indian journalist Tavleen Singh is the former wife of Salman Taseer, the Pakistani minister who was assassinated in 2011 just for advocating reform of the country’s blasphemy laws. So she knows what she is talking about and how to talk about it. Carefully and with the understanding that some peaceful dimwit may choose to deliberately misinterpret her comments.
Halaku says
Methinks “Dimwit of Peace” sounds much better.
abad says
India has enough problems to deal with without Islam adding to the mix – they should boot all Moslems on their soil back to Pakistan
endislam says
Yes and take back Pakistan as well. The plague is upon us all and we must act now.
Guy Forester says
Referring to the terror activities in Kashmir as police problems is exactly the same thinking that has led the US and Western Europe into an endless “war on terror.”
Our leaders steadfastly refuse to identify and act boldly against the state sponsors of these terrorists. The Israeli’s are the only ones that get anywhere close to the correct response. Unfortunately, our western leaders immediately call for restraint and cease fires as soon as the instigating states are getting their clocks cleaned by the “Jews.”
Russia/USSR was the main sponsor and provided terrorist training camps for Arafat and countless others. China and Russia share stolen technology with proxy states like Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan. Now Erdogan and Turkey are jumping on the bandwagon. Yes Virginia, there really is a true axis of evil.
The west and states like India need to band together to stop this crap in its tracks. Unfortunately, OPEC money, corporate lobbyists, political correctness, and a leftist media have paralyzed our leadership into inaction.
One day, not too far from now, some clown like fat boy Kim or a Jihadi will make a dumb move because he thinks he really is the one calling the shots. When that happens the SHTF occurs and it will not be pretty.
Sarah says
Come on India, you did it once, you can do it again.
You partitioned off Pakistan once. Just round up the Muslims in India and boot them over the border.
Jesus Christ, given the whole Partition issue, the constant fighting and bickering and hell, given the fact both nations have NUKES trained on each other constantly; I find it astonishing that the Hindus of India could ever allow an Islamic takeover within their own borders. Wake up. They bred industriously and furiously, while you were all working your asses off to lift your country out of the third world.
Its not hard to spot. Wherever poverty, filth, lack of education and opportunity rears its head – so does Islam. Why do you think its so popular in the third world? Time to focus on that extraordinarily poor rural section of the Indian population. Don’t let them breed like flies in misery, whilst spending their days babbling to Allah – its a recipe for disaster anywhere in the world.
Halaku says
Well spotted, Sarah. India is routinely hauled over the coals for not doing much about its rising population and its leftist intellectuals and the previous government have kept the major fact under wraps. If you look at the population growth details you find the “devil” there, as usual! Yes, the non-Muslim population of India has been shrinking, as it is growing at less than the replacement value for nearly the last two decades. The Muslims who were growing at 3% annually have also come down to 2.4%, but as this is above replacement value, they are still increasing their numbers. If the trend continues, they will outnumber non-Muslims.
Incidentally, these anti-Earth, anti-Humanity population growth figures of Muslims around the world, are ignored by the environmentalists. This is also the real reason why “Islam is the fastest growing religion”, as its adherents are fond of reminding us all the time.
Angel says
According to Islamic doctrine, any lands that were ever part of dar al-Islam (the house or realm of Islam, under the submission of Allah’s perfect rule) are permanently part of dar al-Islam and have no right to claim independence. Thus, two-thirds of India, all of Spain, practically the entirety of the Balkans including Greece, and even snippets of Italy that were temporarily occupied by Muslim armies have no legal right to be anything other than Islamic states. That’s why–in the mind of jihadists–that it’s ridiculous that the Catholics act as if the Cathedral of Cordoba, for example, should be used exclusively for Catholic liturgies rather than having to make room for Muslim worship services on demand.
boakai ngombu says
tis false doctrine
Angel says
False doctrines for a false religion–they go hand in hand. Search online for article ““Muslims create quarrels over rights to Cordoba Cathedral in Spain”
gravenimage says
True, Angel–this is what Muslims believe.
Vann Boseman says
Recently I began to explore the long, bloody history of Muslims’ attempted conquest of the subcontinent. The one thing that is hard to understand is why the carnage was not even worse than it was. Tamerlane sacked Delhi so brutally that it took over a hundred years to recover. But why were not all Muslim conquerors of India like that? A partial answer I get is greed. Allowing Hindus the option of dhimitude enabled conquerors to better enrich themselves. I also heard that there was a school of thought among Muslims that Hindus were people of the book after all.
What impressed me the most was the tremendous spirit of the Indian people who over and over again fought for their religion and culture in spite of the horrible repression that almost always accompanied Muslim rule.
Chand says
We humans, being genetic machines that self replicate, use all available means and tools to further the spread of our genes. Religion is such a tool. It is a meme or concept that can be appropriated for that task. Islam has been hijacked thus. It is a political tool as are all organized religions. It is an automatic response………grab all available means and resources in the environment to spread genes. Just like our cravings for tasty food.
Isn’t the erosion and the final demise of all organized religions by the hammer blows of science, technology, education and material development the only answer to the darkness of religions that only divide this one single human species on this precious planet?
Those who murder in God’s name must be eliminated, of course. Public teaching of old texts as religious mumbo-jumbo must be stopped, especially to vulnerable children.
How about beginning by stopping the huge amounts of money coming from the rich Saudis that are spreading the intolerant brand of Islam called Salafi Wahabbism? We know this fact but remain helpless as money rules the world.
Susan B says
Only islam commands that muslims murder in their evil god’s name. The true God does not condone murder.
Chand says
Christians murdered millions over many centuries in the name of the One God too. E.g……..during the conquest of the New World Christian clergy distributed small pox infested blankets to the natives; Catholic priests practicing celibacy have abused children around the globe………..a crime as bad as murder; Hindus would burn widows in their dead husband’s funeral pyres, etc, etc.
God does not or cannot prevent all these either. He or She or It is an illusion.
Angel says
Chand, your argument is a variation on a logical fallacy known as the tuquoque argument (appeal to hypocrisy). In truth, all you have done is validate the Christian doctrine (shared by most of the world’s great religions in some form or another, in contrast to paganism and ideological atheism) that humankind’s greatest problem is sin and that human beings are much in need of the moral and spiritual transformation that authentic religion offers and which begins with repentance and conversion (albeit, granted, that many forms of therapy can put–and in some cases, may be needed– one on the right track without getting one all the way there). The precepts of good religions, when they are properly understood and accepted, result in the restraint of sin and injustice and the growth of mercy and understanding. Practicing celibacy means no sex, much less sexual abuse; it is breaking with the discipline that causes problems (BTW, on top of your false logic on this score, I will point out that I am a psychotherapist by training with substantial professional experience in the field of child sexual abuse so I understand these things better than you). Your last sentence is a dogmatic assertion.
Chand says
Angel, I was replying to Susan B’s reply that the ‘The true God does not condone murder’.
So is God omnipotent or not? If so why can’t sin be stopped by Him/Her/It? Or is
God just another names for nature, mountains, atoms, quarks? An entity not concerned with human affairs.
And isn’t a child abused by a priest, the person most trusted by the child and society, as heinous a crime as a guy blowing himself up in a crowd? Your opinion, not as an experienced psychotherapist but as a common, moral human being…………
Angel says
God did not make human beings to be robots. We have free will and unfortunately, we often abuse it. No one denies that child sexual abuse is a horrendous evil; no religion, at least not Christianity, teaches otherwise. Islam, on the other hand, sanctifies violence in the name of God. Whereas, progressive revelation (official doctrine for Catholics and some branches of Judaism) made it clearer and clearer over time God’s true nature to the dense creatures that we are, resulting in a chronology of Scriptural theological development in favor of justice, mercy, and peace for all, and not just one’s tribe. The Qur’an went in the opposite direction, with the violent and intolerant verses coming later and supported by a doctrine of abrogaton that privileges later verses over the earlier. Because the true God respects human freedom, He normally works by conversion rather than by coercion. Thus, individual religious conversion and the gradual transformation of societies is how evils are mitigated and eliminated. This is how Tibet went from being one of the most warlike and expansionist countries to becoming a largely peace-loving one under Buddhist influence. This is why slavery–one of the greatest absolute evils to plague humanity–was first eliminated in the Christian world. Yes, actually outlawed and eliminated. This was not an achievement of atheist whining and finger-pointing but by Christian abolitionists, Catholic and Protestant. The first human rights advocate in the modern sense was a Catholic friar-priest (Bartolome de las Casas); he was a former slave owner, slave trader, and slave hunter who was cut to the heart and brought to repentance by a hell fire-and-brimstone sermon condemning the abuse of New World Indians.
gravenimage says
Fine posts, Angel.
Yes–humans have free will.
gravenimage says
Once again, Chand is pretending that the problem is religion in general, despite the fact that no one else is slaughtering people in the name of their god but Muslims.
On another thread, hew as lauding the Communists for crushing freedom of conscience. Whatever his purpose here, it would not appear to be protecting our freedoms against Islam.
Angel says
Thank you, gravenimage, for your contribution to this discussion. I seem to recall from comments by you under other articles (correct if I am mistaken, of course), a religion-friendly perspective or at least one that is sympathetic and respectful. I am curious, though, as to why you have chosen a moniker like “grave image”. I’m curious, so I’d be interested in hearing the story behind that choice of names if you don’t mind.
Chand says
Angel says: “This is why slavery–one of the greatest absolute evils to plague humanity–was first eliminated in the Christian world. Yes, actually outlawed and eliminated. This was not an achievement of atheist whining and finger-pointing but by Christian abolitionists, Catholic and Protestant.”
But what is so great in removing a grave injustice that should not have happened in the first place? Of course many brave Christians fought against slavery and everybody ought to. They had to even struggle against their own who claimed superiority of the fair skinned European over the darker non-white people who were subjugated, colonized, robbed, brutalized and enslaved for centuries. The abolition of slavery coincided with many simultaneous struggles against injustice all over the world, led by various leaders of various faiths, ideologies and cultures, not just Christians.
And BTW, Angel, looks like you can’t carry on an argument without some uncalled for chest thumping. You said: ” I will point out that I am a psychotherapist by training with substantial professional experience in the field of child sexual abuse so I understand these things better than you”. How do you know I am ignorant in child sexual abuse/psychotherapy? Who cares what you are. This isn’t a job site! Stick to the issues please and not get personal.
Angel says
BTW, I know that you are ignorant about the field of child sexual abuse and cannot be a therapist by virtue of your statement’s ignorance and conditioning by a logical fallacy.–unless are an incompetent therapist or one whose professional judgment is overridden by bigotry.
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
Angel says: “This is why slavery–one of the greatest absolute evils to plague humanity–was first eliminated in the Christian world. Yes, actually outlawed and eliminated. This was not an achievement of atheist whining and finger-pointing but by Christian abolitionists, Catholic and Protestant.”
But what is so great in removing a grave injustice that should not have happened in the first place? Of course many brave Christians fought against slavery and everybody ought to.
……………………………..
This is, essentially, sneering at every human struggle against injustice, because–well–shouldn’t it have been obvious that this was a bad thing, anyway?
Good grief…
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They had to even struggle against their own who claimed superiority of the fair skinned European over the darker non-white people who were subjugated, colonized, robbed, brutalized and enslaved for centuries. The abolition of slavery coincided with many simultaneous struggles against injustice all over the world, led by various leaders of various faiths, ideologies and cultures, not just Christians.
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Actually, the greatest strides in justice were in Christian nations–in the free West. Pretending that the same sort of progress was made in Arabia and Sudan as were made in England, America, and France is just ludicrous.
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And BTW, Angel, looks like you can’t carry on an argument without some uncalled for chest thumping. You said: ” I will point out that I am a psychotherapist by training with substantial professional experience in the field of child sexual abuse so I understand these things better than you”. How do you know I am ignorant in child sexual abuse/psychotherapy? Who cares what you are. This isn’t a job site! Stick to the issues please and not get personal.
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How *dare* Angel say that she opposes child abuse? sarc/off
gravenimage says
Angel wrote:
Thank you, gravenimage, for your contribution to this discussion. I seem to recall from comments by you under other articles (correct if I am mistaken, of course), a religion-friendly perspective or at least one that is sympathetic and respectful.
…………………………….
Thank you, Angel.
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I am curious, though, as to why you have chosen a moniker like “grave image”. I’m curious, so I’d be interested in hearing the story behind that choice of names if you don’t mind.
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Not at all. When I was a kid first at university, I was studying engraving and other forms of printmaking at the same time I was writing a paper on imagery in early Christianity–and how it was early on frowned upon in some circles due to the Second Commandment.
Of course, imagery would become very important in Christian art–and, later, in Jewish art, as well.
“Gravenimage” was a bit cheeky, but not ill meant–*certainly* not un-Christian. I am an illustrator, and have had several Churches, a Synagogue, and Chabad House as clients at one time or another.
Clients either haven’t noticed the reference, or consider it witty. I have not had a single potential client who was offended by it.
I hope you take it in the same spirit, Angel.
It seemed especially salient here, given Muslims barring images of humans and animals, and murdering artists who run afoul of this ban.
Chand says
gravenimage says: “On another thread, hew as [sic] lauding the Communists for crushing freedom of conscience. Whatever his purpose here, it would not appear to be protecting our freedoms against Islam.”
One of the main forces confronting these Islamo-fascist murderers from the Caliphate in Northern Syria is the YPG Kurdish militia, a Communist organization. They are part of the Syrian Democratic Forces currently battling to liberate Raqqa. So atheist Communists who were born Sunni Muslims, are also helping to protect ‘our freedoms against Islam’.
All help is required now to fight Jihadism globally.
Angel says
Chand, rather sad that you cannot give credit where credit is due. You are incorrect about “simultaneous” efforts. Unless you are talking about isolated individual efforts or tribal revolt-escapes that existed long before the institution of slavery was every seriously threatened at a society wide level. Christians were the first by a couple of centuries and it was theologically-trained legal experts working with Las Casas who developed the first legal frameworks. You will not find any documentation predating the work of the Dominican friars at the University of Salamanca. And it was Protestant nations led by Protestant clergy and zealous faithful who cemented the accomplishment in modern times. Slavery continued in China until the Communist revolution of 1949. Muslims nations, by the way, were the very last to legally abolish slavery, not until the 1960s, in fact. You will not be able to name any notable early anti-slavery atheists who were not embedded in a Christian culture (toward which they were ingrates). As to “chest-thumping” your qualification is coupled with a generalization plus a defensiveness that suggests that your reaction says more about you than it does about me. Apparently, a necessary tactic for one losing an argument. As to your last response to gravenimage, we’ll recognize the sincerity of your implicit call for all people of good will to work together to defeat jihadism when you stop your gratuitous attacks on Christianity and religion in general. Besides, if you care so much about humility, educate yourself on the contributions of Christianity to civilization and civility. That will do more good for you than reprimanding me ever could (unless punishing the other who offends you is a higher priority than self-enlightenment and self-improvement–then again, holding the low ground is permissable for atheism). I’ll even be happy to suggest resources if you are capable of calming down and regaining a sense of balance, including atheists capable of dialog and intellectual integrity.
Chand says
No, Angel, I completely accept the contribution of the Judeo-Christian worldview on the world today. Jesus Christ is a guide and inspiration to most humans on the planet and is revered by all, including ‘normal’ Muslims. He is their Prophet too. I have worked voluntarily for the late Saint Mother Teresa and had even met her and kissed her hand and so don’t need a lecture from you on Christianity. All religions over time have contributed to taming and civilizing humandkind in their own ways. And so have non-religious philosophies and world views.
My point is that religions seem to be causing more harm than good today and great harm has been caused in the name of God by people of all faiths.
Murder is murder whether fanatical Muslims blow up people or whether Mexican drug gangs (mostly Christians) massacre people. Terrible humans of all faiths can pretend to be followers of God and go about doing terrible things. Or they are classified as followers of one particular faith by default, for having being born Christian or Muslim.
As for your child therapist credentials……….I have my doubts. You have a tendency to put others down and lecture. Don’t child therapists have to listen to other opinions too? Stop your own bigotry.
No, I’m not a child therapist. I am a health care professional. Similar professions though……….
Angel says
Well, I must say that this is a pleasant surprise (really). While your moral equivalency argument remains unpersuasive, your latest clarifications are helpful and your bottom line intention is something that I can respect.
Every Muslim that I have had a chance to get to know personally on two continents is a decent human with no trace of fanaticism. Although we should wish the would-be-reformers well, that does not change the fact that reformers within Islam have the deck stacked against them. Unless they can persuade a critical mass of their co-religionists to repudiate sharia law and to distance themselves from much of who the historical Muhammad was, it will remain a quixotic quest. I will also admit that in some places Islam has had its relatively enlightened periods–this is not one of them (except in isolated pockets).
While I do not disagree evil has and is being done in the name of all faiths, I am not seeing any recognition from you that the secular left—which has abandoned classical liberalism in favor of a very dangerous utopian liberalism–is a comparable threat to civilization as jihadism and is a worse threat to the common good than any religion with the exception of Islam, or at least jihadist Islam. .In fact, it adds fuel to the fire from both ends of the barrel. Ironically, if things continue on their present trajectory, it will be the Christian tradition that ends up as the the preserver and guardian of classical liberalism’s best values. Read THE DIALECTICS OF SECULARIZATION (a fruitful dialog between then Cardinal Joseph Ratizinger and Jurgen Habermas, Europe’s greatest living philosopher, scion of neo-Marxism, and atheist social analyst) and you’ll understand there is strength to this claim.
I do appreciate especially your clarification: “Terrible humans of all faiths can pretend to be followers of God and go about doing terrible things. Or they are classified as followers of one particular faith by default, for having being born Christian or Muslim.” Or Hindu, or Buddhist, or what have you. There are always rogue members and members in name only. The only nuance I would add is that while there are indeed many good Muslims who are true followers of God, it is not possible to say that the core of Islamic teaching and tradition is free of harmful elements. The institution is supposed to serve the Spirit, not the other way around. Several decades ago the Roman Catholic Church decided to change how it speaks of the Jewish people in a standard prayer for Good Friday; Catholic leaders realized that the traditional text too easily lent itself to anti-Semitic attitudes. Thus, the wording had to be revised to reflect a proper intention that is more respectful. I assure you that in mainstream Protestant and Catholic seminaries today it is not even necessary to condemn anti-Semitism because any seminarian or professor expressing such views would be swiftly disciplined if not expelled. Almost the opposite stance exists in many if not most Islamic schools today. The Protestants have a wonderful from slogan: ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda (the church reformed, always reforming. Collectively, in general, the Christian churches in our day are taking this principle seriously. The task before institutional Islam is far more daunting by comparison.
Finally, I thank you for switching to the high ground before I did. I was thinking about apologizing for how I had been overly snarky with you (not infrequently my online persona sounds more like my arrogant smarty pants undergrad voice than my life’s-given-me-a beating-too middle age person voice), so I was going to say something. You have made it so much easier by going first. Blessings on your day!
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
gravenimage says: “On another thread, hew as [sic] lauding the Communists for crushing freedom of conscience. Whatever his purpose here, it would not appear to be protecting our freedoms against Islam.”
One of the main forces confronting these Islamo-fascist murderers from the Caliphate in Northern Syria is the YPG Kurdish militia, a Communist organization.
………………………………
Not exactly–they are Leftist, but never describe themselves as Communist. Chand, I am not surprised that you would hope we don’t know that, though.
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No, Angel, I completely accept the contribution of the Judeo-Christian worldview on the world today. Jesus Christ is a guide and inspiration to most humans on the planet and is revered by all, including ‘normal’ Muslims. He is their Prophet too.
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Chand, the Muslim “Jesus”–really, “Isa”–has *nothing* to do with the Jesus of the Gospels. He is not the Savior, but he is also not a healer or a peacemaker.
In fact, his main role in Islam is to slaughter Christians in the last days. Can it be that you are unaware of this?
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I have worked voluntarily for the late Saint Mother Teresa and had even met her and kissed her hand and so don’t need a lecture from you on Christianity.
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This is nice. I met her briefly when she came to a church in San Francisco in the 1980s.
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All religions over time have contributed to taming and civilizing humandkind in their own ways.
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In what way has the violent creed of Islam improved things? Examples, please. Are you thinking of FGM, child marriage, slavery, sex slavery, slaughtering unbelievers, or stoning rape victims to death?
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And so have non-religious philosophies and world views.
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Many have–and many have not. What great contributions have Stalinism and Fascism made?
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My point is that religions seem to be causing more harm than good today and great harm has been caused in the name of God by people of all faiths.
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Muslims are raping and slaughtering people in the name of their foul creed. What Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Buddhists are doing this?
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Murder is murder whether fanatical Muslims blow up people or whether Mexican drug gangs (mostly Christians) massacre people. Terrible humans of all faiths can pretend to be followers of God and go about doing terrible things. Or they are classified as followers of one particular faith by default, for having being born Christian or Muslim.
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I’m sorry–this is ridiculous. Where does Christian doctrine enjoin its followers to sell drugs and murder rivals? Was Jesus a narco-terrorist? What calumny.
In contrast, Islam really does tell Muslims to kill in the name of Allah and on the model of the vicious “Prophet” Muhammed. There are Muslims who don’t do this, of course–they are decent people, but bad Muslims.
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As for your child therapist credentials……….I have my doubts. You have a tendency to put others down and lecture. Don’t child therapists have to listen to other opinions too? Stop your own bigotry.
No, I’m not a child therapist. I am a health care professional. Similar professions though……….
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The idea that a child health care professional is “bigoted” if they don’t consider child abuse a valid point of view is really quite appalling. No, one need not consider *evil* valid in order to be open minded.
Angel says
Thanks, gravenimage, for sharing your story behind the name. No, I’m not offended … mainly curious but, to be completely honest, I had been somewhat apprehensive, thinking that maybe I had read you wrong and that you are actually virulently anti-Christian or anti-Jewish. Blessings on continuing in your craft making beautiful things for God that lift the human spirit!
gravenimage says
Oh, no, Angel–I am not anti-Jewish or anti-Christian at all. Just the opposite. I have been posting here for over ten years now, and anyone who knows my posting history can tell you that this is so.
By the way, here is some of my Anti-Jihad art:
http://s478.photobucket.com/user/gravenimageartist/library/?sort=3&page=1
You can click on any image to enlarge it.
I’ve really enjoyed your comments. You’re new here, aren’t you? Welcome to Jihad Watch!
Angel says
gravenimage, Thanks for the definitive clarification and the compliment, too. I’ve probably been posting for about 4 years, just not very frequently.
gravenimage says
Sorry I thought you were new, Angel.
I enjoy your comments, though–wish you could post more often. I know it can be difficult to find the time, though.
peter says
The smartest thing to do is to kill a muzzi before he kills you or rapes your women! Kudos to Israel and long live Israel
gravenimage says
Israel does not kill Muslims who have not committed crimes. What utter calumny.
Maya says
The best countries in the world that can effectively deal with Muslims atrocities are China and Russia. They are super brutal and will finish off these radical Muslims. They have no concern for human rights. In China, the Muslims are not allowed to fast during Ramadan and cannot wear hijab. The pro- Chinese government apparatus have demolished many mosques in China. However, no liberal media cover that news for fear of Chinese retaliation. West and India are being debilitated by the leftist media and the Muslims know and take advantage of the situation.
Muslims have never and will never live peacefully with humanity. It is like asking dogs not to bark because it is their nature. Similarly, you cannot ask Muslims to not be violent because being violent is part of their nature There are some good Muslims but there are super minority.
I feel bad for India because it cannot take a heavy stand against the Muslims for fear of losing good relationships with the Arab countries. No country in the world suffers like India in the hands of Muslims. The previous Congress party essentially sold the soul of India to the Muslims. If Hindus commit 1/100000 % of the atrocities Muslims commit in India in a Muslim country, they will not survive to tell the stories. Every single Muslim county on planet earth discriminate against its non Muslim minorities but when the Muslims in the West or India, they will take advantage of the open society to demand their rights.
My prayer to Allah : Dear Allah, God Almighty. Please save us from your followers who are ransacking the entire planet and destroying peace and they do it all in your name. Please show Muslims how to live peacefully with all other subjects created by you.
gravenimage says
China and Russia regularly appease Muslims.
Just because a regime is brutal to its own citizens does *not* mean that they are going to be uncompromising when it comes to Islam.
Chand says
So when Christians or other non-Muslims commit sin it is called sin but when Muslims commit a crime it is said that they are following the Koran!
So when Muslims kill innocent civilians in the name of God/Allah it is terrible; something due to their Koran and their Prophet but when non-Muslims kill others because of whatever reason it is called a crime, a sin, a travesty against God’s command and the Bible or whatever!
So when a Christian or a non-Muslim commits a crime he/she is unstable and deranged but when a Muslim commits a crime it is because of Muhammad, the false Prophet and His Book, eh?
Then what about the millions of Muslims who do not commit crimes? What about the many Muslims who do not go about killing their fellow humans, crying ” Allah o Akbar” or “Jihad”? Who follow the laws of the land, and try to be good citizens, trying to be good humans like all of us; hoping for some mercy from the Creator of the Universe and some good luck in this life and peace in the afterlife? They aren’t following the Koran, I guess, and are actually going against their own Holy Book?
Twisted perverted logic, in my opinion. Most Muslims too pray to the Creator of the Universe for mercy, compassion, some good luck for themselves and their families in this life and some peace in the next, however deluded they are.
Most Muslims aren’t aware of the ‘faults’ of their religion or don’t wanna know. All they know is that there is a Compassionate and Merciful God/Allah who will take care of them. Of course they do not wanna offend the Prophet of God. Muhammad is a Prophet of God and so is Jesus and David and Moses and Noah and Abraham………………………………
I happen to live among Muslims and know many of them personally and I don’t see them jumping around screaming for Jihad or trying to convert others. Most of them are just like us, hoping for a decent life for themselves and their progeny on this planet and some peace in the afterlife.
Peter Buckley says
The kind of muslims you describe are probably very nice people at least “on the surface” -see this article:
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3681/muslim-family-next-door
However just read virtually the last chapter in Quran sura 9, when Muhammad is attacking all and sundry tribes in the vicinity (“offensive jihad)and you will find Allah and Muhammad, constantly berating such muslims as “hypocrites”-i.e. they call themselves “muslims” but are reluctant to or refuse to carry out their religious duty of jihad.
It’s not about “muslims”,who were born into the faith through no choice of their own. Most either aren’t religious or are only taught half-truths by their parents or imams. It’s not about “muslims”-it’s about the influence the religion has on them. It’s a fact I’m afraid:
https://www.thelocal.de/20100606/27673
Chand says
Ya, Peter Buckley, the main problem is the stuff they are taught, especially on Friday sermons in mosques by their Imams and clerics.
Jihad is always held to be a superior pursuit in their mythology. The Hadith says: “There is no monasticism in Islam. In Islam the monasticism is Jihad” But the whole Koran and the Hadith was written during war at that time and is irrelevant today but has been constantly used for political activity and it is the perfect manual for that. The Koran is mostly about war against the infidels who opposed Muhammad and is basically a clarion call for war in the brutal Arabian desert in the Dark Ages. What else can be expected from a caravan raider like Muhammad, who unlike his ‘guide’ and Prophet Jesus (Isa), didn’t know how to turn the other cheek but instead drew his sword?
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
So when Christians or other non-Muslims commit sin it is called sin but when Muslims commit a crime it is said that they are following the Koran!
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Christianity does not teach murder; Islam does. How can you deny this?
Pious Muslims do not deny this–they are proud of the violence of the Qur’an and the actions of the “Prophet”. They consider Christianity and other faiths weak for *not* teaching such violence.
More:
Then what about the millions of Muslims who do not commit crimes? What about the many Muslims who do not go about killing their fellow humans, crying ” Allah o Akbar” or “Jihad”?
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They are decent people, but very bad Muslims. And just because they are not currently waging violent Jihad themselves, that does not mean that they do not support those who are doing so. This is *very* common.
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Who follow the laws of the land, and try to be good citizens, trying to be good humans like all of us; hoping for some mercy from the Creator of the Universe and some good luck in this life and peace in the afterlife? They aren’t following the Koran, I guess, and are actually going against their own Holy Book?
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Given that the Qur’an enjoins Muslims to impose Shari’ah and violently spread Islam, yes. Are you criticizing the Holy Qur’an? That makes you a “filthy Infidel”.
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Twisted perverted logic, in my opinion. Most Muslims too pray to the Creator of the Universe for mercy, compassion, some good luck for themselves and their families in this life and some peace in the next, however deluded they are.
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Where does the Qur’an tell its followers to obey the civilized laws of the filthy Kuffar? Verses, please.
More;
Most Muslims aren’t aware of the ‘faults’ of their religion or don’t wanna know. All they know is that there is a Compassionate and Merciful God/Allah who will take care of them. Of course they do not wanna offend the Prophet of God. Muhammad is a Prophet of God and so is Jesus and David and Moses and Noah and Abraham………………………………
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I notice you put “faults” in sneer quotes–does that mean that you do not actually consider “marrying” children, raping Infidels and using them as sex slaves, mass slaughtering those who don’t submit to Islam, and stoning women to death to be real faults? Does that mean you condone these horrors?
More:
I happen to live among Muslims and know many of them personally and I don’t see them jumping around screaming for Jihad or trying to convert others. Most of them are just like us, hoping for a decent life for themselves and their progeny on this planet and some peace in the afterlife.
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Uh huh. Never mind that over 50% of Muslims in the United States say they want to see Shari’ah law imposed here.
How many of these Muslims would actually oppose Jihad from their pious coreligionists? Very few. Mosques regularly instruct their parishioners not to talk to the police.
Why don’t you ask your Muslim friends what they think of Jews, if they believe that women have the same worth as men, what they think about Shari’ah law, if they believe that anyone can criticize Islam and the “Prophet” Muhammed, and if they would report a fellow Muslim plotting violent Jihad. You might not like the answers.
More:
Ya, Peter Buckley, the main problem is the stuff they are taught, especially on Friday sermons in mosques by their Imams and clerics.
Jihad is always held to be a superior pursuit in their mythology. The Hadith says: “There is no monasticism in Islam. In Islam the monasticism is Jihad” But the whole Koran and the Hadith was written during war at that time and is irrelevant today but has been constantly used for political activity and it is the perfect manual for that. The Koran is mostly about war against the infidels who opposed Muhammad and is basically a clarion call for war in the brutal Arabian desert in the Dark Ages.
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There was a great deal of sporadic violence in Arabia in Muhammed’s age–but no out and out war until he started it.
As for the idea that the Qur’an is irrelevant today, try telling pious Muslims *that*. They believe that the Holy Qur’an is valid for all time.
More:
What else can be expected from a caravan raider like Muhammad, who unlike his ‘guide’ and Prophet Jesus (Isa), didn’t know how to turn the other cheek but instead drew his sword?
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You are right about the vicious caravan-raider and warlord Muhammed–but completely mistaken about the Muslim “Jesus”.
The line about “turning the other cheek” is from the Bible, which Muslims completely reject. They believe that the Bible was “corrupted” by Jews and Christians, and was originally as savage as the Qur’an.
The Muslim “Jesus” is no peacemaker. Do you not know this, or just hope that we don’t?
Chand says
gravenimage says” “Not exactly–they (YPG) are Leftist, but never describe themselves as Communist. Chand, I am not surprised that you would hope we don’t know that, though.”
Ha ha, gravenimage. The whole world knows that the YPG is allied to the PKK, which is Communist, but now uses new terms like ‘democratic confederalism’ to describe their ideology, trying to evolve with changing times. The PKK began as Marxist Leninist and had adopted Mao’s theory of people’s war. But these are needless semantics….socialist, Communist, Leftist. They are all basically Marxist and frown upon organized religion in general.
gravenimage says:”In fact, his main role in Islam is to slaughter Christians in the last days. Can it be that you are unaware of this?”
Well, I’ve heard Islamic State propagate this but don’t think it is mainstream Islam and have never heard a Muslim say it. Even so, what happened then, fourteen centuries ago, has no bearing now. The Koran, of course, assumes that Muhammad was on the path of God and so those opposing him, including the Christians and Jews of that time, were enemies then. According to the Book, the Christians were wrong because they anthropomorphized God and called Jesus His son. God is not human and cannot have a son and Prophets are only human. And the Jews were wrong as they did not recognize Jesus, the Prophet of God, and got him crucified instead. Now this book has been hijacked by the Jihadists as if the drama of the Koran is unfolding now and the Muslims have to keep battling the Jews and Christians of today.
As for Jesus/Isa, the Koran says: “And remember the angels’ words to Mary. They said: ‘God has chosen you. He has made you pure and exalted you above womankind.’……….
The angels said to Mary: ‘God bids you rejoice in a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He shall be noble in world and in the world to come, and shall be one of those who are favored. He shall preach to men in his cradle and in the
prime of manhood, and shall lead a righteous life.’ ”
In fact Jesus is given equal status to Muhammad. All Prophets are equal in Islam although Muhammad is the last Prophet. Jesus is also ‘Al masih’ (the messiah), ‘Ruhun min Allah’ (spirit from God), ‘Rasul ullah’ (messenger of God), ‘Nabiyu llah’ (Prophet of God), etc.
Anyway, the Koran is full of contradictions too. And with a whole lot of mumbo-jumbo, unproven truths and sheer nonsense, like most religious texts. Who knows who wrote it, how many lines and chapters were added, deleted, changed, mutated over time?
Wow! gravenimage, It is a small world and you met Mother Teresa too! Good for you.
gravenimage asks: “In what way has the violent creed of Islam improved things?”
Well, apparently things were much worse in Arabia before Muhammad. He unified the Arab warring tribes into a nation, brought some semblance of law and order there and gave a few basic rights to women who were worse off before.
The religion tamed some of the violent tribes of Central Asia to a certain extent.
‘Islamic’ science made a little contribution to modern science, although much was borrowed from other cultures, like from the Hindus.
Some of their art and architecture, poetry and music are good. They are excellent in using their hands and fingers (apart from making bombs and slitting throats!) and make great carpets, garments, glass ware, papier mache, etc. Their cuisine is delicious.
More: “What great contributions have Stalinism and Fascism made?”
If by Stalinism you mean Marxism or Communism in general, it has failed in its experiment. What it did, however, was shine the clear light of science and reason on the problems of humanity, including economic injustice, exploitation, poverty and provided tools to overcome these, especially through organized political work, like trade unionism, labor reform, promoting scientific education to the masses, civil and human rights activities. The world has irrevocably changed after Marx. Capitalism finally appropriated that agenda and tried to provide social and job securities to the common masses. No longer can economic injustice, oppression, vast inequalities between the haves and have-nots go unchallenged.
Another major contribution of Stalinism, although not by the man himself alone, was the horrendous trauma endured and the subsequent gallant resistance displayed by the people of the former USSR in their war against Fascism. The most brutal and decisive battles happened on the Eastern Front with Stalingrad being the fiercest battle in mankind’s history and the crucial turning point in the war in Europe, followed by the decisive Battle of Kursk, the greatest tank battle in history. 27 million Soviet people died in World War 2, out of the total dead of 50 million during the six years of war. Hitler might have taken over the world had he defeated the USSR and used its vast resources to finally defeat the US and Britain.
Marxist and Communists played major roles in struggles against Fascism, colonialism, Imperialism and other forms of oppression in various parts of the world, including the major role of Communist militias in the fight against the Fascist Franco in Spain and in the French and Italian Resistance during World War 2.
Contribution of Fascism? Zero. Except as a reminder to be forever on guard against crooked thugs who are ready to co-opt some national symbol, a particular race or religion for political ends to grab power.
gravenimage says:”Why don’t you ask your Muslim friends what they think of Jews, if they believe that women have the same worth as men, what they think about Shari’ah law, if they believe that anyone can criticize Islam and the “Prophet” Muhammed, and if they would report a fellow Muslim plotting violent Jihad.”
LOL! This Muslim friend of mine, Western educated, in Christian missionary schools, has never read a page of the Koran and is completely uninterested in Islam; doesn’t even offer communal prayers on Eid; is more interested in learning photography, discussing Kafka, Camus, Leonard Cohen, Buddhism and drinking Scotch whiskey. He loves pork too but keeps it a personal secret within his own community although his parents know. His father was concise when I had casually asked him if he’d read the Koran. “Disgusting, unreadable”, he replied. My friend married a non-Muslim and so did his only sister. If I asked him what he thought of Jews he’d probably start talking about the great scientific achievements of Israel and then maybe about his favourite Jewish musician Bob Dylan! Of course he’d report someone plotting terror or try to dissuade his fellow Muslim to his utmost before reporting. People plotting terror are still minuscule in number except in war zones. But I’m sure he’d feel hurt inside if you abuse the Prophet Muhammad on his face out of the blue. But I don’t think he’d attack you for that. He’d just be sad. He sneers at Islam in general though and considers the fundamentalists totally backward and avoidable. Hearing about all of Muhammad’s faults might convince him further of the backwardness of his religion.
I studied the major world religions but have given up on them and have moved on onto the clear air of scientific materialism. Yes, we are robots, conditioned by our genes, upbringing and culture. My Muslim friend doesn’t know about hating Jews because he wasn’t taught that by his parents and he was never brainwashed in mosques.
Our goal as robots is to make more robots like ourselves, using all available resources in the environment including the side benefits of belonging to a particular community and faith. We are opportunistic animals and will definitely use religion if we gain.
I am in the Darwin-Richard Dawkins-Daniel Dennett camp now.
Religion can be objectively and scientifically studied as another human phenomenon. But I don’t mind if they all wither away eventually. Humans have a naturally endowed morality which has evolved over time, having given us evolutionary advantages. We’d still be moral creatures without organized religion.
The whole problem with religion in general is that it is an enchanted hall of mirrors, with magic and mirages, where anything can happen but nothing can be proven. Say, for argument’s sake, that there is a God who cares about us and meddles in our affairs (but which I seriously doubt). If so, how can one be so sure that He, the One God, did NOT choose Muhammad, the caravan raider, to be his latest Prophet? But how can God choose a brutal Arab warrior to be his Prophet? But God can do anything, by definition.
No, you might say, He is actually Satan. So now you have the duality of the good God and an opposing evil force Satan and then it is another ball game altogether. Religious explanations are a quagmire, a quicksand of unproven claims and tall tales. Another huge topic for discussion, though.
More: “What *possible reason* can you have for believing that Islam is reforming? Islam has not reformed in 1400 years. In fact, most Muslim nations are further Islamizing.”
Well, too late now. The genie of Islamic Jihad/Islamo-fascism/Arab-fascism is out of the bottle! Whether they reform from within or are beaten from without, this thing will play itself out now. The tipping point came when a ragtag bunch of Arab fighters and the Afghan Mujahideen, armed with AK 47s and rocket launchers, sent the USSR packing, with Western help. If the great Soviet Union, a superpower with its space program and ICBMs, could be defeated by fearless warriors of Allah then surely the prize of world domination was possible. They could replicate the victories of Muhammad by sacrificing themselves in Jihad.
There is great churning in the ‘Islamic’ world and surely they will be reformed at the end of it. Great fissions and debates engulf the Muslims too now. There is the Shia-Sunni divide, an existential struggle between the fundamentalists and the secular minded Muslim, the atheist Muslim, the educated Muslim. Atheist bloggers, mostly Muslim, have been murdered in large numbers in Bangladesh recently and the Govt. there is trying to fight the Islamists hard.
The third world war is upon us. We are all on Jihad watch.
So what is the solution? Will there rise another Hitler, Adolph and nuke them all? Carpet bomb Mecca and Madina and blow up Al Aqsa? Call them worshipers of Satan, dehumanize them and then extermination. Just as what befell the Jews under Nazism?
Angel put it well: “Becoming a mirror image of the enemy in order to defeat jihadism would only please Satan.”
The world is facing major challenges on top of Jihadism with severe climate change, runaway greed, ugly consumerism, organized crime, corruption in high places, huge gulf between rich and poor, species extinction, over population, epidemics, nuclear proliferation……….and the Doomsday Clock is ticking. India and Pakistan might fight another war soon, this time nuclear. North Korea, South China Sea, Ukraine………all time bombs ticking.
Some God or Allah better save us all.
robeaver says
Islamic sterilization anyone? All boys at 12 get chemical balls removed.
Chand says
Angels says:”……….reformers within Islam have the deck stacked against them. Unless they can persuade a critical mass of their co-religionists to repudiate sharia law and to distance themselves from much of who the historical Muhammad was, it will remain a quixotic quest.”
Yes, totally agreed.
And I don’t think the ‘secular Left’ can help much in the fight against Jihadism as most of them are pseudo-secular and practice appeasement politics and is thus a danger like you say.
The hard core Communists of the past were more honest and effective in their fight against Islamism with their harsh methods but then they were against religions in general.
I’m afraid that this struggle against Jihadism and Islamization will now go on for some generations, say a 100 years, till it is reformed from within and resisted from outside.
However, rabid forms of Islamophobia and the public abuse of Islam, Muhammad and the Koran will help the Jihadis for sure.
All cool, Angel. Blessing to you too.
Angel says
Yes, I can agree that “rabid forms of Islamaphobia and public abuse of Islam” adds to the problem. While much more decisive steps need to be taken to stop the spread of jihadism, it is foolish to play into their hands. If people of good will, including Christians and Jews as well as civilized atheists and agostics, do not hold the high ground and protect the rule of law, we are all lost. Becoming a mirror image of the enemy in order to defeat jihadism would only please Satan. Nice chatting with you, Chand
Chand says
nice chatting with you too, Angel.
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
The hard core Communists of the past were more honest and effective in their fight against Islamism with their harsh methods but then they were against religions in general.
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More lauding of totalitarianism. One does not have to become a totalitarian in order to fight totalitarianism.
For instance, the Allies did not have to become Fascists in order to defeat Fascism.
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I’m afraid that this struggle against Jihadism and Islamization will now go on for some generations, say a 100 years, till it is reformed from within and resisted from outside.
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What *possible reason* can you have for believing that Islam is reforming? Islam has not reformed in 1400 years. In fact, most Muslim nations are further Islamizing.
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However, rabid forms of Islamophobia and the public abuse of Islam, Muhammad and the Koran will help the Jihadis for sure.
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In other words, don’t dare expose the violence of Islam, or you are at fault for violent Jihad…